| Author | Message | ||
     oneway New member Username: oneway Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.16.59.189 |
I consider myself a strong willed person. There is no way, in even a million yrs, that a JW could ever convince me to join their organization. So how do they go about convincing millions of people to join them? Are they just preying on the weak minded or something? I have experience with JWs tho. There are 2 that work with me at my job. One is barely 20 but was raised a Witness since childhood. The other is in his late 40s and came to be a JW a cpl of yrs ago because his brother is one. His brother talked him into going to the Kingdom Hall with him and the rest is history. One thing I have found out about JWs, they seem to have an answer for everything and it's usually not in line with the truth. This latter Witness that I speak of, the one that works with me, almost braggingly states that when he goes door to door, he encourages people to get out their bibles so that he can show them why they are wrong in their interpretations and why he is right. To any JW out there or one considering to become one, how can you not see the deception of this religion? It is so plainly clear that this organization has absolutely nothing to do with the one true GOD. You're going to end up in Hell, the one you don't believe in, if you don't come out of this false beast and seek the one and only true GOD. GOD the FATHER, GOD the SON, and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT. 1x1x1=1. There is but one GOD. Jesus Christ was God Almighty in the flesh, he is not and never was an archangel. There is absolutely period, no way to the FATHER but by HIM(Jesus Christ). If you think otherwise, then you are truly and sadly deceived. | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Oneway: Your username name implies inflexibility which is at best unreasonable (Kinda like “My Way or the Highway”) and everyone knows this is a FOREMOST CHRISTIAN QAULITY. Also, it appears you have personal issues, one of which is jealously of those whom you speak of. A person should take pride (balanced of course) in anything that one does, or if not, they should not do it. FYI: Jeremiah 9:24 says (with some variations) “But let the one bragging about himself brag about himself because of this very thing, the having of insight and the having of knowledge of me, that I am God [YHWH], the One exercising loving-kindness, justice and righteousness in the earth; for in these things I do take delight,” is the utterance of God [YHWH]”. It may surprise you (or not) to learn that JW's are not the only ones that do not believe in the Trinity. If you wish, I would more than happy to share some thoughts as to why some people, (I trust you are no better than others that have views too) who are Christian, do not believe in a Trinity. Let me know. Chow Baby! P.S. One can be strong willed and yet reasonable, and then there are One's that can't. Which one are you? | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 791 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 |
1x1x1=1...yes it does, but multiplication is not the correct mathmatical formula; it is addition. 1+1+1=3...That is what the bible teaches. The word "trinity" is not found in the text, rather it is a theological term which means "Three in Unity". You can not have a trinity with 1x1x1=1; you have oneness which is considered heresy. Jesus was not created and the Holy Spirit is not just an "active force" as the WTBTS teaches. There is a unity among the three which can not be fully explained by the human mind. Yet the bible makes it very clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three seperate and distinct persons who have a perfect unity that can not be fully explained. John 14-16 is a clear example of the speration, all of Paul's letters show seperation, etc. Every verse that speaks of Jesus and the Fathers equality does so in the form of unity and not as being one being. Some things to conider: 1. Who did Jesus pray to, himself? 2. Who forsake Jesus when he was on the cross, himself? 3. When Jesus died, was the father dead, and if so, who raised Jesuss from the dead? 4. Who did Jesus ascend to, himself? 5. Read John 16:7. Jesus states that if he does not go away that the comforter will not come, but if he does go that he will send the comforter. Note: Did Jesus have to return to himself in order to send himself back?\black In the same chapter, verses 13-15, is Jesus crazy? is he using an allegory? Is he saying that he will come and glorify himself? Think about it. It is hard for some to go against there church's doctrine, and actually see that the idea of Jesus and the Father being the same individual is not biblical. - Jesus never taught this, even when he claimed that he was "I Am". He is showing his unity with the father. - The early church, especially Paul, never believed nor taught this. 1x1x1=1 only where muliplication is used. Addition is the biblical formula. | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Oneway: (And in support of Bear)[Part 1] Regardless of what you believe, presented here are some things to think about: 1. The temptation by the Devil to Jesus would have no meaning if the Devil (a renegade son of God—I trust no one will argue this unless you believe God and Satan are the same—and this is another subject) as you cannot tempt God, but you would be able to temp someone who is not God, like one of his Sons. 2. In Matthew 8:28-29, in when Jesus is confronted by demons who possessed two men, how did these rebellious angels, demons identify Jesus? Note: “When he got to the other side, into the country of the Gadarenes, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” So who did the Angel-Demons think Jesus was? 3. In John 20: 17, who was Jesus referring to when he mentions his God and our God when it reads, “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.” The bible says Jesus left us model for us to closely follow so, again who is this God of and Father of Jesus? 4. In the account about Stephen in Acts where he is getting stoned to death, (NOTE: after Jesus went to Heaven) please note what he says in Acts 7 verses 55 and 56, “But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” Who was Jesus standing next to? 5. In 1 Corinthians 11: 3 (Written after Jesus Christ went to Heaven) it states, “But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” Since we can understand the man and woman situation (whether you agree with these words or not) there is a clear and unambiguous analogy, comparison with the human relationship of a man and a woman to Jesus and his Head, God so the question is: Who Jesus’ Head and God? 6. Again in 1 Corinthians 15: 24-28, which again was written after Jesus went back to Heaven where it states: “Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” So the question is: Who is the God and Father of Jesus? 7. In 1 Thessalonians 4: 16, also written after Jesus went to heaven, whether you like it or not, the scriptures say with some variations; “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” It is the Bible that compares Jesus to a certain type of angel, when it states, Jesus, calls or shouts with the “voice of an archangel”. If Jesus is God why is he compared to an archangel? This leads me to the next and final matters for your consideration below. Continued: | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Continued: Part 2 8. And I warn you in advance, you are not gonna like this one: In Hebrews Chapter 1, verses 1-14, the entire chapter, again this was written after Jesus was resurrected and went back to heaven; Jesus is clearly compared to an “Angel”, many times, first in verse 3, as it also says he has “sat down at the right hand” of God, and then note verse 4, with some variations, again after he went to heaven, “So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs”; stop here” If he has “become” better than the angels, and inherited this after going to heaven, who gave him the inheritance? And what was Jesus before he became better than the angels? Also, if Jesus is God, why is he being compared with Angels period again after he went back to heaven? 9. Continuing in Hebrews, verse 5, and 6, again Jesus is in heaven and the account goes on with some variations, “For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” It is clear Jesus is compared to Angels please read this as for space’s sake I did place the entire text in this posting.” Now if this is not Jesus that is compared to Angels here, then who is it? Is it God who is being compared to Angels? Please feel free to read the entire Chapter of Hebrews Chapter 1 in any bible transaction or version and it becomes crystal clear that Jesus is compared to Angels, something God cannot be as he created all things including the Angels. In the end, to accept the concept of the Trinity, one has to deal with many things including but not limited to three things that are quite clear: 1. The word or phrase Trinity is not contained in the Bible and to make it fit a phrase, would be like the King James writers did when they translated the phrase “Angel of Light” to Lucifer, when no such a NAME appears in Bible manuscripts. In fact this is a method employed by Muslims to show that the prophet Muhammad (Do the research on this) is “named” in the bible by using phrases, that his name apparently means; 2. The Trinity has a factual, historical usage in pagan worship that cannot be ignored or denied before Jesus came to earth and 3: The Trinity has problems in the form of obviously conflict and confusion when compared to many scriptures as demonstrated briefly above. Again, something to think about! | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 185 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.16.59.189 |
I guess it's time to straighten out this mess of a topic that I created some time ago. When I wrote this topic, I was pretty much at my wits end with one of the JWs that works with me. This shows in the lame way I presented my case. But, now let's get to the trinity and what I really believe. I don't nor have I ever believed in oneness of God. I don't believe that the Father is the Son or the Son is the Father, etc. I believe that there are 3 distinct persons in the Godhead, yet only 1 God. I believe that the Father is a person, Christ is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person all distinct from one another, yet 1 God. I realize that mathematics can't really describe what we term the trinity. I had no idea that 1x1x1x1=1 suggested oneness. I just saw this being used before and I guess I never fully investigated it's meaning. I hope I have made it very clear that I do not nor ever have supported the oneness theory. And I do humbly appreciete that it was pointed out to me that 1x1x1x1=1 describes oneness, because it was never my intention to indicate that I supported oneness. | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Dear Oneway: Thank you for your reply. Please know that the pain staking reply had nothing to do with your math example. What you describe without the math is the Trinity. What ever you wish to call it, and or spin it, formula or not, the manner in which you describe God is incompatible with scripture. Please take a moment and reason through the posting in the same manner, spirit and time it took to compose it, but most importantly, please, please, please do a stranger a favor and read the scriptural texts cited out of the Bible of your choice, and ask yourself the questions. If you do this and still come away with your belief so be it, as it would then become incumbent upon your as a Christian to help and show me why you disagree and believe what you believe. This is not only the fair thing to do, but it is the Christian thing to do! All the best, P | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 187 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.16.59.189 |
praetorian, It's obvious that you can show me scripture of why you don't believe that Christ is God, and I can show you scripture of why I know he is God. I'm quite sure you've been round and round with this before. So let's see if we can seek the truth with our hearts and not our minds. To know that Christ was both man and God and he is God only comes through revelation by the Holy Spirit through his word. Personally speaking, it is plainly without doubt, that Christ is God. To make him anything less is preaching another Jesus. One of the JWs that I work with is always saying Jesus said this, Jesus said that, etc. So, what I want to know is, why do JWS even care what Jesus said if they can't claim that he is God? There have been many wise men throughout history that stated many wise things, but do men worship these wise men? When Jesus walked this earth, he was both worshipped and he forgave sins. I believe that we both should be able to agree that that honor and power only belongs to God. This alone is revelation that Christ is God. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made To keep in context we have to keep in mind that this was in the beginning, the beginning of creation. All things, not some things, were made by Christ. And without Christ was not any thing made that was made. I fully understand that you have gone over and debated John 1:1-3 countless times, so this is nothing new. But this is where one should take full advantage of plain common sense. If nothing was made that was made without Christ, then who made Christ if you claim that he was made? John 1:3 plainly and clearly states that ALL things were made by Christ and NOTHING that was made was made by anyone other than Christ. Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. I'm not sure about you but I only know of one Saviour and that is Christ. And here we have revelation that the Saviour is none other than the Holy one of Isreal, the Lord thy God. Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; We have already established that the Lord that maketh all things is Christ. Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. We have also already determined that the Lord is Christ himself. Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. "I am the Lord; and there is none else." This is revelation!! Jesus Christ is God!! He is the Lord!! And there is NONE else. No other God because he is God. | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 412 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Jesus is God! Look at the following website, http://www.kevinquick.com/kkministries/books/reasoning/deity.html | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Oneway: (Part 1) Thank you for your reply. I note you remain silent on the reply, and did not mention that you actually read the post, looked up the scriptures, and dealt with the questions. If true, this is of course, regrettable. The scriptures cited in the reply, clearly make statements in plain and simple English showing that Jesus is not Almighty God but that he was and is next to God, at the right hand of God, worships God, as Jesus called God, or someone, “My Father” and “My God” and even hands over himself, or submits to God (or someone) responsibilities, and also notes that God is Jesus Head! All in simple 8th grade English. The entire body of scripture I listed along with questions, states in plain and simple English that God and Jesus are distinct whether you like it or not, agree with it or not! These are facts and no amount of disagreement will nullify these words in scripture and make them disappear. In the end, you will have to take your dogma that is not mentioned in the Bible and reckon it with scriptures like these and more that the Bible states in plain and simple language. I did take the time to read your reply carefully and look up all of the scriptures for this reply. As to John 1:1-3 have you ever done the research yourself personally, by going ot a library, looking at a Greek text or have you done what most people do, and that is, take the word of someone else and make it your own? Well, as to John 1:1-3, you need to know what “Scholars” TODAY say about this passage and others, by reading the book “Truth in Translation”, Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament, by Professor and Scholar, Jason David BeDuhn, University Press of America, Lanham, Maryland, 2003. The fact is, we know more about translating ancient Greek and Hebrew today than what was known when the King James Bible was translated. You may be surprised to learn, that just like with global warming, the issue is not the scientists, or in this case the Scholars, but instead with the Politicians, or as in this case, the Religionists!!! In Short you need to know that in John 1-3, in the Greek, (spelling somewhat phonetically in English below) this scripture reads…”In the beginning was The (Ho) Word (Logos), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was with God (Ton Theon), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was God (Theos).” Note, please, that many so-called Christian translators most always omit, the Ton, usually by putting a – (dash) under it like it doesn’t mean anything, but it is in the Greek. In Greek this TON (not a dash) is another word for our English word “The” like Ho is The. And by keeping it blank, meaningless it can be used to confuse, God (Theos) with The God (Ton Theon), which is not incompatible with Isaiah 9:6,7,that calls the Messiah Jesus, Mighty God, (theos) but not Almighty God, or Ton Theon/The God! | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Continued: Part 2 With regards to the terms Honor and Power of course this must be applied to God, however, it can also be applied to others. If you disagree, try and disrespect the power and honor or a court room judge!!! Your quotes in Isaiah do nothing to remotely express that God is anything like you propose or that Jesus is God. Interestingly, you brought you Isaiah 45:5 which states, quoting you, “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else” I wish to point out some very simple and obvious things below: First, since you use a Bible that uses Old English why do you not choose to speak that way in your everyday speech and writings? Something to think about eh? Second, in view of Isaiah 45:5, quoted above how would you view this scripture also in Isaiah, that speaks about the Messiah, which we know was Jesus (if not Jesus then who?) wherein it states, (In the English you and I use everyday) in Isaiah 9:6, 7 “I For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of God (YHWH)of armies will do this.” Did you note that among the MANY TITLES the Messiah, Jesus would be called includes things like the TERM, “MIGHTY GOD” as opposed to Almighty God and “ETERNAL FATHER, among other wonderful superlative titles, so tell me again how would you view this scripture as apposed to Isaiah 45:5? Also, since Humans are created in God’s image, what relationship can you compare the Trinity to here on earth. In other words we know what a Father and Son relationship is, a mother daughter, Husband, Wife, etc, so what relationship does this compare us to since we are in God’s image. Oneway, a Son in the flesh can speak for a Father, just like a Vice President can be empowered to speak for a President. This is also true of Kings and their sons, co-rulers in the past? Sons were often referred to as the King, while the father was alive! Tell me, what is so horrible to you about a monotheistic God by himself, who lived alone for eons of years, (no beginning) who one day decided to share the life he had, with others, and then created, someone, like himself first, that he called a Son, who he got to know and later did things with Him to make things, like others Sons, like themselves? Is this so bad? Is it out of harmony with the Bible? Is it wrong to call Spirit Sons of God’s, Gods in the sense that they are God Like, like Almighty God their father? They are after all like their Father! The Bible even calls Religious leaders in the nation of Israel Gods and this is not incompatible with the Bible! My Son is like me, Human, and the same in substance, power and ability, and we are one. So is my wife, in fact we became “one flesh” when we married and in many ways we are indeed one flesh, and are one substance, a human substance with, blood, skin etc but we are completely different people, entities! Just something to think about! P.S. I did this in a rush so please pardon in advance any mistakes in grammer etc. | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
With regards to the terms Honor and Power of course this must be applied to God, however, it can also be applied to others. If you disagree, try and disrespect the power and honor or a court room judge!!! Your quotes in Isaiah do nothing to remotely express that God is anything like you propose or that Jesus is God. Interestingly, you brought you Isaiah 45:5 which states, quoting you, “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else” I wish to point out some very simple and obvious things below: First, since you use a Bible that uses Old English why do you not choose to speak that way in your everyday speech and writings? Something to think about eh? Second, in view of Isaiah 45:5, quoted above how would you view this scripture also in Isaiah, that speaks about the Messiah, which we know was Jesus (if not Jesus then who?) wherein it states, (In the English you and I use everyday) in Isaiah 9:6, 7 “I For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of God (YHWH)of armies will do this.” Did you note that among the MANY TITLES the Messiah, Jesus would be called includes things like the TERM, “MIGHTY GOD” as opposed to Almighty God and “ETERNAL FATHER, among other wonderful superlative titles, so tell me again how would you view this scripture as apposed to Isaiah 45:5? Also, since Humans are created in God’s image, what relationship can you compare the Trinity to here on earth. In other words we know what a Father and Son relationship is, a mother daughter, Husband, Wife, etc, so what relationship does this compare us to since we are in God’s image. Oneway, a Son in the flesh can speak for a Father, just like a Vice President can be empowered to speak for a President. This is also true of Kings and their sons, co-rulers in the past? Sons were often referred to as the King, while the father was alive! Tell me, what is so horrible to you about a monotheistic God by himself, who lived alone for eons of years, (no beginning) who one day decided to share the life he had, with others, and then created, someone, like himself first, that he called a Son, who he got to know and later did things with Him to make things, like others Sons, like themselves? Is this so bad? Is it out of harmony with the Bible? Is it wrong to call Spirit Sons of God’s, Gods in the sense that they are God Like, like Almighty God their father? They are after all like their Father! The Bible even calls Religious leaders in the nation of Israel Gods and this is not incompatible with the Bible! My Son is like me, Human, and the same in substance, power and ability, and we are one. So is my wife, in fact we became “one flesh” when we married and in many ways we are indeed one flesh, and are one substance, a human substance with, blood, skin etc but we are completely different people, entities! Just something to think about! P.S. I did this in a hurry so please pardon any errors in grammer etc. | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Dear Pilgrim, what I believe is mine, I did the research, I looked up the scriptures, and what I know may be little, but I know it well, and again it is mine, and not borrowed from someone that thinks like me. It is easy to find someone to agree with especially on the net. Did you do the research yourself? Did you read the statements in the post to you and look up all the scriptures, and deal with the questions presented. Where did you disagree? Why? Be specific. In the end, | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 798 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 |
Oneway Stated: I'm not sure about you but I only know of one Saviour and that is Christ. And here we have revelation that the Saviour is none other than the Holy one of Isreal, the Lord thy God. To equate the word 'Saviour' as always being Jesus, when mentioned in the OT text, is well, absurd. Jesus is our saviour from sin. The context of the verse you used deals with God saving Israel from their troubles. What I am attempting to make clear is that the use of the word 'saviour' does not prove it is speaking of Jesus. I believe that you will find 99% of biblical scholars who would agree. We have already established that the Lord that maketh all things is Christ. Without going into all of the other texts which deal with this, it can be explained this way: Jesus had his part in creation. I do not want to post long, but the way you speak, I would think that you would be better at exegetical study than this. The simple fact of the text is that it makes clear the seperation between the Father and Jesus. They are not the same individual, period. Let me ask you a question: What theological background are you from? Baptist, Pentecostal/Charismatic, etc? | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 197 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.16.59.189 |
bear, you stated: "To equate the word 'Saviour' as always being Jesus, when mentioned in the OT text, is well, absurd." It is quite obvious that in the OT, that Christ's time as being Saviour for sins hadn't been manifest in the flesh. And I do fully understand the role as being the Saviour of Isreal at the time. But, if Christ would not have manifested in the flesh, and died and rose, then there would not have been a Saviour of anyone. Nonetheless, the word of God is Spirit and prophetic in nature. you stated: "We have already established that the Lord that maketh all things is Christ." I'm not trying to claim that Christ made all things by himself. Clearly all 3 persons of the Godhead were involved. Genesis Ch 1 among others shows clear evidence of this. My whole point was to show that Christ is indeed God. you stated: "The simple fact of the text is that it makes clear the seperation between the Father and Jesus. They are not the same individual, period." I have never implied that the Father and Jesus are the same individual, period. you stated: "Let me ask you a question: What theological background are you from?" I don't have a theological background so to speak. I have never followed after denominations or organizations, but I have tried a few here and there yrs ago, but it was always short lived. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1598 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 206.186.79.91 |
Hi there Bear and Oneway and others. Bear, you wrote... Jesus is our saviour from sin. The context of the verse you used deals with God saving Israel from their troubles. What I am attempting to make clear is that the use of the word 'saviour' does not prove it is speaking of Jesus. I believe that you will find 99% of biblical scholars who would agree. I would agree with you, if you see the TYPES in the bible, Moses being a saviour, Joshua being a saviour... Many Types but only ONE anti-type, who is Christ. The Trinity is a mind boggling concept. 3 in 1 Bullinger states that the Creator had to have a 'creature' form, this being Christ. It is evident from Gen1 that The Father created all things, and it is evident from John that through Christ all things were created. No contradiction. The God created the Heavens and the Earth with thought.... The Holy Spirit moves over the waters.... and then there was Light. Christ is this very Light....The Word of God is the Light of the World, and Christ is the Word Manifest as Man. All three of the so called 'Trinity' mentioned right away. I think of it this way.... God the Father, Creator, Thinker of all that is. Christ the Messiah, the creature form of God, His very essence manifest into human form. We can see Him many times in Old Testament scripture, as the Angel of the Lord, Melchezakek(sp) and of course our Messiah, Yashua the Christ. The Holy Spirit is our Comforter, our Convictor, the Invisible force of God. He is God's power and the Instrument of His Will in this age. I tell my 7 year old this.... God the Father, Creator. Christ the Son, God made in man's image. Holy Spirit, Power of God. That's my understanding. May you all find Peace in Yashua c | ||
| skooter942000 Intermediate Member Username: skooter942000 Post Number: 372 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 4.243.170.25 |
AMEN - Ezekiel There is ONE -(ONLY-BEGOTTEN-SON). - "GOD'S FIRST-BORN" CHILD!!! If you have seen the SON , - (You have seen the FATHER). "ALMIGHTY GOD" -(Born of WOMAN)- into FLESH. When it comes to the SUPERNATURAL (We are Babes) How did GOD make the Heavens? How did HE create the Galaxies? - and everything (therein). The RUACH (SPIRIT) of GOD MOVED , and SPOKE , and CREATED. (_"IT ALL")_) - We know so little - Compared to what GOD KNOWS. (And DOES) ***if*** we keep our Eyes on HIM, we shall do well. Prov 1:7 Don <*))>< | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 801 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 |
Ezeikel and Skooter, you are good people. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1605 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 206.186.79.91 |
So are you Bear Peace to you in Christ c | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Bear: Would you please take a moment and send me an email to: praetorian_g@hotmail.com Many thanks, | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 853 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 205.169.120.146 |
If you ask JW who Jesus is, they will say, He is "a" god and not The God. This means, they are breaking the first of the 10 commandments. "Thou shall not worship anyother God". If Jehovah is the only God, then how can they believe and accept Jesus as another God?If this is not blasphemy and pure idolatory, what is it then? | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 854 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 205.169.120.146 |
1+1+1= 3. This is what makes God, God and us men and women. If we can understand the mystery of Trinity, then we will be like Gods. Chemically speaking, Water is made up of 2 hydrogens and one oxygen. However, water exists in 3 different forms,It can be steam, water and ice. These 3 are different physically. But, chemically they are the one and the same. Those who deny Trinity, do not understand Bible at all. God always existed. He was never created. When He saw man's depraved condition, He had to send the purest and holiest as a sacrifice which was the Jewish tradition for the purging of sin. There was none. So, He Himself came as a man. The human and divine nature of Jesus Christ makes Him unique among other Gods. JW's believe that Jesus was a man. This makes him a perfect substitute sacrifice for sin. He died for all people including the JW's. However, they reject His sacrifice. It is strange that they do not believe in Hell. The last chapter in Revelation explains what Hell is. How could there be awonderful place like Heaven and nothing opposite to that? Revelation also says that"Do not add anything to this book. Do not take away anything from this also". So, it is convenient for them to take away the description of Hell as they do not want to believe. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 855 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 205.169.120.146 |
WHAT KIND OF MIND BECOMES A JW? ANYONE WHO HAS LOST THE POWER TO EXAMINE FACTS, BUT WILL BLINDLY BE MANIPULATED TO BELIEVE ANYTHING. IN OTHER WORDS, A "M O R O N" | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 433 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Inkorrekt, You wrote,"If you ask JW who Jesus is, they will say, He is "a" god and not The God. This means, they are breaking the first of the 10 commandments. "Thou shall not worship any other God". If Jehovah is the only God, then how can they believe and accept Jesus as another God?If this is not blasphemy and pure idolatry, what is it then?" I think that you made an excellent point here!! | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 859 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.139.244 |
TRINITY: In John 15, Jesus said, "When I leave you, I will send you the comforter (the Holy spirit)So, god always existed. He was never created. He Himself came to save mankind by becoming a sacrifice.After He died, He rose again. Today, it is the Holy spirit which is ministering to us. This must explain Father, Son and the Holy spirit. When they refuse to believe, why are they forcing others to believe this which is nothing but Blasphemy? In Jewish tradition, the punishment for blasphemy is death. Should all the Jw's be prosecuted for Blasphemy? | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 453 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
inkorrekt, You wrote,"In Jewish tradition, the punishment for blasphemy is death. Should all the Jw's be prosecuted for Blasphemy?" The jehova's witnesses are pacifist and they would never harm you physically even if you were guilty of that awful sin called blasphemy. I am a pacifist too! and I do not believe in the death penalty so give the JWs a brake. The JWs might preach and believe some heresies but they will never harm you physically as far as I know. Just Correct them and instruct them with love. I was involved in a latter rain cult called Maranatha when I was young. It took me a while to see some of the latter rain heresies that they taught me in that cult. I am still learning! We need to love the JWs and have patient with them. Remember that many New Testament Christians were persecuted and some where killed by stoning or other forms of Capital punishment but the New Testament Christians never persecuted anyone. We must follow their example. (Message edited by pilgrim on March 24, 2007) (Message edited by pilgrim on March 24, 2007) | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
inkorrekt: Have you read the entire text of John Chapter 10. If you do, right after Jesus says this, (that Jesus and God are one) in verse 31 (honestly and at best this would be a duo not tri-unity) to the end of the chapter, you see that the Jews try to Jesus for saying this, for blasphemy. Jesus he had a perfect opportunity to say something like, I am Him, God in Human form etc. You will be surprised at Jesus’ reply when you actually read it through! You need to get the book Truth in Translation : Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament by Jason Beduhn (Professor of Greek) and you will see, that the Holy Writings make crystal clear, that Jesus is not the same as God. 1 Timothy 2:5 says, (written WELL AFTER JESUS went back to heaven) “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.” Why not just say, Jesus after going to back to heaven , went back to being God, or the God Head. There is nothing like this in the bible try and fit what you may, other than people’s stories, that are being held on to and relied upon. In the end, believing in this places you in opposition to many scriptures, that have to be explained away by accepting something outside the bible, to make it fit! | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 868 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.32.155 |
PRAETORIAN: Yes there goes the JW. Translation is a buzz word for JW's. You can fool some sometime. You cannot fool everybody all the time. Keep your translations to yourself. Keep thinking within a circle. Do not come out of it. When you come out, then you expose yourself.You are not anyway different from Hindu or a Muslim. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 870 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.32.155 |
JW's have all the answers in the world. They can quote any scripture anytime all in the wrong context. Can sombody explain to me the serious charges of Sexual abuse in this Cult which is covered up by threats of excommunication, intimidations, and severance from the family? | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 223 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 69.30.157.124 |
I would still like to know how a JW can obtain salvation if he or she denies that Jesus is indeed God? Someone please explain this to me. I would also like to know how any JW can have access to the Father without going thru the Son? Someone please explain this to me. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 873 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.34 |
ONEWAY: This is a Counterfeit religion established to destroy the christiaqn faith. JW's are wolves in sheep's clothing. They chose Sundays to do their indoctrination as on Sundays most of the people go to the churches. Their targets are the "Sunday Christians" for whom Sundays are very important. They are very pious on sundays. Between Sundays, there is no difference between them and the pagans.These people have no committment and no convictions. To them, Church attendance is all that matters. JW's target these WEAK and non committed RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. These are the leaders who even crucified Jesus Christ. They are the messengers of Satan to DECEIVE EVEN THE ELECT.Read Mathew 24 where we are all warned,"Do not be DECEIVED". This is mentioned 5 times. From their inception till today, JW's thrive on the ignorance, weak foundations and lack of convictions and committments of the "WEAK CHRISTIANS".They will deceive anyone. | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Inkorett and Oneway” As your collective names imply, so you will be treated and since you chose to make this personal, this response will be in kind; Your Ignorance is showing! 1. By your definition, oh bright ones, anyone using the word “Translation” is a JW! To issue such as bold statement is to imply that the readers of this board are “Stupid”. Duh! 2. You know what one does when one assumes? If you do, more power to you! If you don’t, it further adds to the names chosen. As for comparing “ME” to anything, is silly because you don’t know me! And, for that matter, you both could truly be Catholic Priest’s masquerading on this board (since everyone knows, that they are “ALL” pedophiles), speaking out against your secret problem, in order to make yourself feel better,,,,oh poor boy(s). Go get some help! ‘Hey Lucy, Get the Paintbrush-Quick’ You Got some spalin to do! (No offence meant to the Catholics as I am using this as hyperbole to make a point). 3. I repeat, you know nothing about me, and know this, oh illustrious bright ones, that a person does not have to be a JW to agree with some or most of their beliefs! There are other Christians that don’t believe in the non-sense of, what is it; let’s see…Oh yes, three in one, no wait,,,,maybe three on one composite form,,,,, but like this…or that…or like,,,, no wait,,,,I got it, 3 in 1 oil, no I mean egg,,,,, oh no way,,,,,it isn’t biblical, but who cares,,,, uh, STORY, that you and others have chosen to buy into!!!! So to make others believe what you do, you ATTACK…hey, now that’s the way to win people over, rover! 4. It is interesting, that you both you skirted the issue of my post, which I did in a fair, ethical, and reasonable manner, which makes one wonder, what kind of a mind you both have, as you both chose not to discuss the issues as presented in a reasonable manner, but instead, chose the route of; “Duh, we can’t answer this so, let’ s make fun of him or them, that’ll teach em.’’’ Bright real Bright! This says a lot. In fact, it causes one to ponder; ‘With What Do You Use to Reason?’ So, who really is in the “Circle” pal? By the way, do you folks work for a living, because that type of reasoning in any work discipline will get you fired! By the way, did you folks finish High School, because usually one is taught in Higher Learning, how to address differences of opinions and problems; by dealing with it, not insulting people and avoid the issues! Sounds like kids to me! 5. As to keeping my things to myself, the same applies with equal force to you, as I trust you do not think that as a human being, you are better than anyone else are you! Come on, tell us oh wonderful brilliant ones!!! 6. Abuse and problems are found everywhere and anywhere, and that in and of itself does not do anything to take away from someone that worships God further, anyone can criticize anyone, that is easy. In the end they are the only ones that do something about it whether you like it or not! I guess folks in jail don’t like being there either—Duh! Hey, I trust you have read the bible through many times and know the many problems God’ s people have had so no need to comment on that here since you are both “correct” and “reasonable” (Shuh, don’t tell anyone…..it’s in your name). 7. Your collective naïve nature is showing. Deal with the facts, and do not confuse the issues. I can tell you that if you put this string (ours in case you are confused) before a young person with an 8th grade reading level, they will see that you chose to skirt the issue, and instead, chose to attack with assumptions and negativity. Please, try not to insult the reading audience. Oh by the way, did I fail mention that I admire your fine Christian Conduct and Attitude that is clearly displayed in your writings----NOT! Folks, even enemies can agree to disagree, with grace, etiquette and style, something you both need to learn. | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 224 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 69.30.157.124 |
praetorian, I'm not sure how you claim my last msg was a personal attack or something. I asked 2 simple questions. I don't recall mentioning any names. I asked these 2 questions of any JW. If you're not able to provide these 2 answers then maybe some other JWs can, since this was asked of all JWs. BTW, I chose the name 'oneway' for a reason, and that reason is, there is only one way to the Father, and that is thru Jesus Christ, the Son of God. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 879 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.52 |
I deliberately chose the word "INKORREKT" and the spelling itself must show that it is different. I could have chosen the word "INCORRECT". I wanted to be different, but not a stupid. For your kind information, in my previous job, I was chosen as ONE OF THE TOP 7 BEST PERFORMERS 2 months in a row. In my current job, I was chosen as the best employee of the month. You are WRONG. About my credentials, I do not have to prove to anyone what I have and specially you.You will not believe anyway. Why? You refuse to believe even the true God. I have even challenged a Nobel prize winner. My work was plagiarized and those who continued that work, won the nobel prize. In the graduate school, I was given a very difficult problem to solve which everyone else had quit. I too wanted to quit. But, I surrendered all to Jesus Christ(Jehovah) and sought His help. He answered me and I came up with a new hypothesis on how the chemicals control certain pathways in brain.My work was assessed as the best in one of the famous Schools. I have studied a lot and have forgotten more than what an average person would ever learn in life. You are WRONG again. I never blow my own trumpet. Only when you challeged my credentials, I had to show you. You will not believe anyway. Yes, you sound like the Liberal Democrats who are all mentally ill. They will not answer the questions. They will avoid. When challenged, will resort to name calling and personal attacks. This is exactly what you are doing. Jehovah's witnesses are messengers of Satan sent to deceive the true believers in Christ. I forgive you for all your misunderstandings and personal attacks. When you ASSUME something about others, you make an ***(DONKEY) out of you and ME. When you do not know anything about me,You have made totally WRONG ASSUMPTIONS about me. Then, How could your ASSUMPTIONS about God be RIGHT? | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Oneway: I responded to both you and inkorrekt, with parts of the message in plural, to both of “YOU”, and in the singular when it was to one of you. I trusted in your mutual abilities to figure this out. In order to avoid any confusion I do so here only to you, keeping replies to inkorrekt separate. One does not have to be JW to respond to your two queries, which are stated in your Post of Monday, March 26, 2007 - 10:32 pm that read, “I would still like to know how a JW can obtain salvation if he or she denies that Jesus is indeed God? Someone please explain this to me. I would also like to know how any JW can have access to the Father without going thru the Son? Someone please explain this to me.” Answer to Question 1: Your question takes the position that if they or anyone else does not reach out for salvation in the manner “you” choose, which is not stated in the bible plainly (by plain I mean something like; ‘If you do not believe in the Trinity’ etc.) they cannot attain to salvation. This is what is called a loaded fixed outcome question as no matter what the reply, if it is not your reply, it doesn’t work. This is not only unreasonable; it is not Christian to do that to people! Now with that said; They can obtain salvation just like anyone else who chooses to do so as proscribed in the Bible, no more no less, thereby worshiping God in Spirit and Truth (John 4:24) through their Lord, Savior and Mediator (1 Timothy 1:5,6) (the Messiah) Jesus Christ. Just because a person does not accept a doctrine that is not plainly stated in the bible, that in fact has to be added to or explained by things outside the bible, not to mention the long history of it’s use in paganism, does not mean they cannot attain to salvation, no matter what you believe. Answer to Question 2: This is tied directly to the answer to 1 above. I repeat in short, they can, like anyone else, get to the Father, through Jesus Christ, their Lord, Master, Savior and Mediator. Thus consider this matter explained to you. Now you may not like the answer, but it is what it is, and saying that they do not worship God because they do not believe in doctrines that are at best puzzling and need explanation outside the bible, does not mean that they don’t! In the end, before you reply to this, I trust you would have read my posts and others on the Trinity in the various strings here so that rather than taking a fixed position that I am wrong, please reason on why and what is said, and keep to the issue, as my opinions and rocks are as good any one else’s! Thanks for explaining your username, as without that and or voice inflection, one can come to different understandings. Tata | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Junior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. Praetorian: Am I to presume that you promote 'oneness'? If so, would you explain why that theory is held by every group described as cultic. (Islam, The Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, The Adventist Movement, pentecostalism, etc.) | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 62 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Dear inkorrekt: (Part 1 of 2) Wow, you are easily overcome, as is obviously expressed in your rather shotgun style emotional response posting. My reply was meant to do just that! That was pretty easy!!! Let’s see now: I appreciate your explaining the meaning behind your choice of username, but you have to admit, without the explanation, or hearing the inflections of ones voice (forgetting about your posts for the moment…) one can just as easily come to the same conclusion I did, even with the spelling, though now having a rather hubris touch! You said you wanted to be “different but not stupid”; I will leave this one alone as you not only walk into it here, you actually stepped in it with both feet! Concerning your FYI, interestingly, you contradict yourself, belying your representations, as after provided a litany of things so as to prove yourself, you go on to state, “…I do not have to prove to anyone what I have and specially you.” Something to think about: A person with the type of background you mention, would not deal with things in the manner you chose to do so, let alone respond emotionally to subject matters in question. Oh well…. I will have to take your word, rather opinion on my being “wrong” about you, because in the end, we do not know each other, and this forum does not allow for, nor is it the place to match credentials; and if I were you sir, I would never pick a fight with someone I did not know, as you never know how embarrassed you can become or how foolish you can really look! Ok, so you are ordinary, what you describe can be said of many. After all, you conveniently forgot that you chose to reply in a certain style, while I responded in kind, though sought to closely stick to the issues, which you blatantly ignore! I sir, let my writings speak for me and for themselves, as that is all you can do in this type of arena. What does this have to do with the price of bananas? Meaning, that anyone reading this string can easily see (with very little education, I might add) that you are skirting the issues that you yourself bring up, specifically when they are responded to! Interesting, that says a lot to a reasonable mind reading the same. As to your statement, “I never blow my own trumpet”, duh, HELLO, what did you do here? Did you even read what you wrote? I never challenged your credentials that would be silly, as one can be anything in cyber land. I challenged your writings, positions and the scriptural reasoning behind them. If you have had half the training you describe above, you would not “feel” the need to defend or prove anything as in the end, it has nothing to do with the price of bananas!!! Meaning, you would stick to the point at hand! You’re expressing my sounding like those who are mentally ill, is also bright, real bright! Ok, and your point is? Oh, was that supposed to get a rise out of me...sorry to disappoint, only laughter and pity for you here bud! Now again I must ask, ‘Do you read your writings?” I have responded on point and you avoid it. Ok, now it is down to the ability to read and comprehend simple English, so I will speak a little slower for you if you wish, I responded in E-N-G-L-I-S-H here,,,,,,, now did you get the point? | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
(Part 2 of 2) As to your stating “This is exactly what you are doing” is to completely ignore (you have a habit of doing this…) the point of the opening words to my post of Wednesday March 28, 2007 at 1:01 PM, (that yours replies to) that reads, “As your collective names imply, so you will be treated and since you chose to make this personal, this response will be in kind; Your Ignorance is showing!” I replied to you in kind. What part of that did you not comprehend? Do these types of tactics really work for you? You know, the bullying of people to make your point with no support? Stop, you are insulting the folks on this board, as they can (believe it or not) READ! You are insulting their intelligence let alone Nobel Prize winners; which only serves to further belie your assertions! Now here is where we get to the crux of the matter of the ravings of your mind, “demons” you say, your insults again, but “where’s the beef?” What does this have to do with my postings where I took the time to answer your comments and mixed attacks supported by scripture I might add? I guess in the end, JW’s and others who disagree with you are in good company, John 7:20 states the crowd thought and said Jesus was demon possessed! Why not deal with issues, as you might give folks here what they deserve to read, appropriate replies to subject matters raised, and exchange of thoughts though disagreeable as they may be! Your last paragraph, conclusion is one of bizarre wonderment; Let’s see,…..because I chose to address your issues, clearly and succinctly, (whether you agree to disagree) in the manner you initiated, coupled with your ignoring points and issues that were backed up by scripture…you come to the conclusion that I must be wrong about God? Did I get that right? Boy, you think to much of yourself! In the end, if you want to deal with the issues, then first try by addressing the issues (point by point) in my postings under the thread, “I am 18 and dating a Jehovah’s Witness” (Is this you, come on, it sure sounds like a child…lol) of March 8, 2007, 3:20PM (Part 1) and 3:21 PM (Part 2) along with March 28, 2007, at 5:47 PM (Part 1) and 5:55PM (Part 2). In the words of a distinguished politician, known for his wit, oratory skills and artful debate, (no name as you would probably turn this into something like a three headed beast or Lock ness Monster or something), tailored made to fit the occasion; “I would gladly reply further, but I am afraid that the illumination of my mind, will blind you!” LOL—Hey even people in confrontation can be respectful and light hearted! P | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 64 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Oh I forgot to mention, that above you call JW’s demons, so are not Christians supposed to hate demons? It is interesting to note that under the string “Understanding Jehovah’s Witnesses” in your post of March 28th, 2007 at 9:42 PM, you state, “I do not hate JW's. I never expressed this in my posts. It is your owqn [sic] assumption.” | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 65 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Dear Mr. the_apostolic_truth_ministries: I am not sure what you are asking exactly, though I would be more than happy to respond if you clarified what you mean by “oneness” and how you feel it relates to the entities you quote above. If however, you mean monotheistic verses polytheistic, then I believe my postings speak for themselves and would be glad to discuss any specific point you write about. Let me know. | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 808 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 |
a_t_m (Sandy Bryant), The WTBS does not believe in oneness. Once again I ask you, where did you receive your doctarate? Your avoidance of the answer is interesting. | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 226 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 69.30.157.124 |
you stated: "Answer to Question 1: Your question takes the position that if they or anyone else does not reach out for salvation in the manner “you” choose, which is not stated in the bible plainly (by plain I mean something like; ‘If you do not believe in the Trinity’ etc.) they cannot attain to salvation. This is what is called a loaded fixed outcome question as no matter what the reply, if it is not your reply, it doesn’t work. This is not only unreasonable; it is not Christian to do that to people! Now with that said; They can obtain salvation just like anyone else who chooses to do so as proscribed in the Bible, no more no less, thereby worshiping God in Spirit and Truth (John 4:24) through their Lord, Savior and Mediator (1 Timothy 1:5,6) (the Messiah) Jesus Christ. Just because a person does not accept a doctrine that is not plainly stated in the bible, that in fact has to be added to or explained by things outside the bible, not to mention the long history of it’s use in paganism, does not mean they cannot attain to salvation, no matter what you believe." Simply put, angels and created beings cannot and never have had the capability to save anyone. Only God can provide salvation. So the math is easy, if only God can provide salvation, and Jesus Christ is salvation, then Jesus Christ has to be God, not a god, but he is God. If the Jesus that the JWs are talking about is a god and a created being and a created angel, then I don't know this Jesus nor do I want to. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 883 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.34 |
REMINDER: Once again, as a Christian, I forgive you for everything you had misunderstood and misrepresented. It is all FLUFF and no SUBSTANCE. Thank you for responding to me. | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
inkorrekt: Your response speaks for itself, and as to your forgiveness, know that it is not needed here nor welcomed. May I suggest, therapy? The End. Tata | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Junior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. Bear: The WB&TS is oneness. They deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the basis of all oneness. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Junior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. Praetorian: Quoting: "monotheistic verses polytheistic>" End quote. Thank you for the direct answer. I am not into circle jerks. | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Dear the_apostolic_truth_ministries Person: Where's your sense of Humor? Please get a shorter user name! | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 809 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 |
a_t_m, Actually, the oneness doctrine does not deny the deity of Christ; they deny the existence of three individual persons. It is also know as the "Jesus only" doctrine; one person manifesting into three. The WTBTS does not in any form fall into the oneness camp. Btw, I am still waiting for an answer as to where you received your doctorate? | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 890 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.45 |
PRAETORIAN: Now you are exposing your true colors.Christianity is based on forgivenes of our sins through the sacrifice of Lord Jesus christ. Every true believer is also commanded to forgive others who offend. This is what I have done. Refusing forgiveness is Antichristian. If this is not an evidence that JW's are not Christians what is it then? | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Inkorret: Did I not deal with your hubris assumptions in this thread? I forgot, when you write, you presume the people reading the thread are stupid and cannot read! Alrighty then….please know, that in all my responses (Stay with me Jimbo, Stay with me) above, I have replied by sticking to the issues in the posts, and have done my best, in fact, to keep to scripture, with no outside sources (or opinions) so that I can truly say that “All the sayings of my mouth are in righteousness. Among them there is nothing twisted or crooked” (Proverbs 8:8) with regards to the replies! You however have resorted to a series of interesting things in yoru responses that only serve to characterize “your” so called Christian demeanor such as: 1. Avoiding the issues; 2. Emotionally attack; 3. Used unflattering terms-name calling; 4. Blown your own trumpet (Humble real Humble) only to belie your claims of a learned person; 5. Responded to matters not at issue; 6. You unnecessarily feel the need to challenge folks, me and others on this board much like you admit you do to others (See your Post 879) which in the end, simply means you sure can argue “real good” etc. etc. etc. Now, it was after these post exchanges above, you reached the conclusion where you “feel” the urge to express that you are “forgiving me” yes? Ok……Help me with this, (Stay with me Jimbo, Stay with me) forgive me for what? Please tell me what wrong I have committed against you? Fellow, you extended forgiveness to me because of the plain and simple fact, that I don’t agree with you, for having a different opinion than you do, that’s all. Where is the sin in this Fellow? I must tell you, that it takes an extraordinary amount of hubris to do this, (Satan is the leader in this perhaps he is your father) as you are not my, nor for that matter anyone’s judge, let alone you as a human are NOT better than anyone else. You Know Jimbo, stay with me—stay with ..that you believe you are! Duh, but datz anoder storee (Since you like to spell words wrong to make correct points with others they think like you). Fellow, it is I, who is exchanging emails with you, not anyone else let alone the JW’s etc, as they would not bother to kick at a barking dog, however me, I like eating them, especially the mean ones for breakfast! You have overestimated yourself while underestimating others by your assumptions and deep hubris demeanor. You truly believe your own Poop! I must tell you , and your not gonna like this Jimbo, nor where I quote it from….. just for you. The scriptures speak of people like you when it states in Proverbs 8:5, “O inexperienced ones, understand shrewdness; and you stupid ones, understand heart” also, Proverbs 14:33, “In the heart of the understanding one there rests wisdom, and in the midst of stupid ones it becomes known”, and Proverbs 15:14 “The understanding heart is one that searches for knowledge, but the mouth of stupid people is one that aspires to foolishness” and last but certainly not least, Proverbs 17:10, “A rebuke works deeper in one having understanding than striking a stupid one a hundred times.” Tata | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 902 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.42 |
Wrong Scripture quoted once again and as usual. REad my messages and read yours and compare. This will tell you who attacked who? I only challenged your beliefs. But, you never responded to my challenges, but began a Crusade of "Personal attacks" on me, my credentials and my job. I still forgive you. This is Easter time to celebrate the ressurection of Jesus Christ. He died for your and my sins.You can deny His Deity. He still Loves you. Because He died for my sins and forgave me, I FORGIVE YOU. | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Come again; you admit to celebrating Jesus (who you believe is a Pagan Trinity with politics) and at the same time you celebrate the Pagan Goddess Ester (Jimbo you know the one with the multiple breasts---now who is showing their true colors here, come on….) and you forgive me? And what a coincidence? Two incontrovertible pagan issues in your worship of God and I need forgiveness from YOU? Ok, we got it Jimbo. [Add the inflection for the appropriate sarcasm and see my post to your bizarre reply under the string Understanding JW’s] I do hope that when people are invited by you to read our posts, side by side, (or rather one after the other) they will indeed see who is skirting issues, (even if they don’t agree with me) because that is as easy as doing research for a grade school project essay. This is why I questioned your education Jimbo, the way you deal with things that are etched in stone, in writing here! What is the name of the book in the Bible named specifically after you again? Oh I'm sorry I meant the Apocrypha! Tata | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Come again; you admit to celebrating Jesus (who you believe is a Pagan Trinity with politics) and at the same time you celebrate the Pagan Goddess Ester (Jimbo you know the one with the multiple breasts---now who is showing their true colors here, come on….) and you forgive me? And what a coincidence? Two incontrovertible pagan issues in your worship of God and I need forgiveness from YOU? Ok, we got it Jimbo. [Add the inflection for the appropriate sarcasm and see my post to your bizarre reply under the string Understanding JW’s] I do hope that when people are invited by you to read our posts, side by side, (or rather one after the other) they will indeed see who is skirting issues, (even if they don’t agree with me) because that is as easy as doing research for a grade school project essay. This is why I questioned your education Jimbo, the way you deal with things that are etched in stone, in writing here! What is the name of the book in the Bible named specifically after you again? Oh I'm sorry I meant the Apocrypha! Tata | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 903 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.59.8.142 |
PRAEOTORIAN:You had challenged me if I read your Epistles to the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Christians who challenge JW's .Yes. I had read your first Epistle. I must state that I really got bored.Why? 1) All the scriptures quoted here have no relevance to the challenges at all. 2) Just quoting the scriptures and trying to explain something does not have any relevance to the challenges.It is frustrating even to raed. 3_ This is exactloy the same tactic that is used by JW Proseletysers targeting WEAK, NAIVE and LEGALISTIC people who are not even christians who get deceived. Irrelevant scriptures are often taken out of context and the Victim is overwhelmed. The target feels that the Cult recruiter knows lots of Bible and feels victimised and this is how recruitment to this antichristian Cult,JW is made on Saturdays and Sundays. The JW Deprogrammers never answer questions, but repeat all the memorized scriptures just like a broken record. Oneday, 2 ladies approached me and asked me if they could talk to me. I asked them what was the topic. They said, "GOD". I accepted it. They gave their preprepared speech. After they ended, I asked a simple question, "Please tell me who is a Prophet?" I asked for a definition. They answered Jesus. I told them that I never asked for an example. But, I only asked for a definition. I even helped them. Is Jeane Dixon, a prophet? They did not even know her. Then, they said, Prophet is the one who brings good news.I asked," Well, did you not bring good news to me?" They said,"Yes". Then, you both must be prophets, I said. They said,"NO", WE are not prophets. I said, just now you told me that Prophet is a person who brings good news and you brought the good news about GOD.(right or wrong) to me. Are you not the prophets according to your own definition?. I was able to break their defences. I asked them," Do you believe the Bible cover to cover? Yes, they said. Alright, you believe all the 66 prophecies concerning the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ(Jehovah). They said ,"Yes". Today, you want me to believe all the prophecies by JW( the end of times) which never came to pass, but the dates were changed when nothing happened.Which one should I believe? The bible which carries all the fulfilled prophecies or the JW watch Tower whose 3 prophecies failed? They said Bible. I was able to break their wall of defence. They do not know what they are talking about. One thing all the Christians must admit. That is, the JW;s are very passionate about what they believe(Right or Wrong). They have been brainwashed to tell their victims that they are Christians. If you ask them who is a christian, they do not know the answer. How can a blind lead the blind? | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jimbo: (Part 1) Wow you have a lot more of issues than I ever imagined. Therefore know, that I will respond by following your reply to the best of my ability, as I don’t do bizarre! I never challenged you or anyone, get it, I did, however, provide in my posts, ‘food for thought’ that were different from yours, and that you didn’t agree with! Therefore, you felt I needed forgiveness and a whole bunch of other stuff; as the posts above and on other strings support! You give me too much credit, calling my replies an “epistle”, as these are your words Jimbo, not mine. They are hardly that! I do not remember asking nor suggesting that you should go the JW’s for anything. I did however; provide you again, with ‘food for thought’ that you vehemently disagreed with. Ok! 1. As to the scriptures in the post not addressing your “challenges” you are probably right, as do not remember replying to a “challenge” but rather provided you with ‘food for thought’ that you disagree with, very emotionally, I might add, as you misspelled many words inkorrektly and it appears you post was done at (in fairness to you) 4:34AM! 2. Jimbo, since I did not challenge you but instead, provided you with another view point as ‘food for thought’ different from your own, I am not sure what you are trying to express here. However, even you Jimbo, are entitled to your opinion! 3. I am not sure what a “JW Proseletysers” are though I guess, you mean Proselytizers, and the only thing I can say to you is; I am sorry you feel that way! You are very much mistaken though you are entitled to your opinion that is no better than anyone else on this board. Or is it? Jimbo, don’t you preach, proselytize Jimbo telling people about the Lord? Let me know if you need forgiveness here, as the last thing I want to do is be accused of not doing something Christian! But no worries, Jimbo, as I never want to miss the opportunity to address your emotional charged reactions as evident in this and you’re other responses! Also, I guess that since you are or were a JW, you should know, right? (Add a little pepper, I mean sarcasm here please) As to recruiters, are you sure your not mixing things up with the Military? We are on a religious string here right? As to Cult; not sure what you are driving at as I trust you may go to a place of worship and the like, so when you and others do it, is that brainwashing and a cult also? Remember, you have me (and I trust many others) at a disadvantage Jimbo as we don’t spy on or use clandestine means to tape your meetings etc., as you (admitted this) and some of yours do! That is for someone with either too much time on their hands, or in effect has no life? Which is it for you Jimbo? Hey, have you taken up my suggestion about the Betty Crocker Group? You are truly need here Jimbo! Continued Below... | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 76 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Part 2 Ok, here you leave the numbered paragraphs (so stay with me Jimbo, stay with me) and state, “The JW Deprogrammers never answer questions, but repeat all the memorized scriptures just like a broken record”; Duh! This makes no sense whatsoever! Read what you just wrote here and you will see, however, if you want me to, I will b-r-e-a-k, i-t, d-o-w-n, for you! Just let me know Jimbo! Now it is at this point in your reply, where you make fun of two ladies, whom you state were JW’s. Ok! First, this is no doubt a very Christian thing to do, and is worthy of imitation-(Drum roll please, with music and major sarcasm) I am sure they were “real sorry” (add sarcasm here for special effects) they just could not impress you Jimbo! You’re sure hard (headed) to reach! After all, we all know (cause you told us) that you sure can “argue” with “intelligent folk” like that Nobel Prize winner you admit to arguing with! Whew! You sure showed those ladies a thing or two, as they were not at your level of thinking! (Way below it) Watch out everybody, one will now need to go to the University of Inkorrektness, with Jimbo as President to know these things; though you better get up early! [See Comment in numbered Paragraph 1 above] Did you give those ladies an invite? Now the rest of your post is very confusing and convoluted to say the least, though again, I will try to follow it as I will avoid trying to “interpret” what you are trying to express! I will ask, where in the Bible Jimbo, (stay with me on this) does it say that in order to preach the good news you must be a “Prophet” of God. I thought they were called disciples, but I don’t have the Apocryphal book you use---hey, but I still want that reference though, ok, Jimbo! In the Bible, Jesus was the last “Prophet” Messiah in that very sense of the word, and then his core followers were Apostles, and the other folks, were Jesus followers, believers or disciples. You need to look up the word(s) as I think you messed up on this Jimbo. See, when the New Testament Scriptures use the term “prophesies” or “prophesying” it should be remembered in the sense that these words do not necessarily mean predicting the future but rather preaching or evangelizing about the Good News of Jesus Christ and his Father, who Jesus admitted to worshipping. You let me know if you need me to provide you with that scripture again Jimbo! I guess if Jesus worshipped God, that God worships God and so on! Where do you and others come up with this stuff? Oh, I know, it’s called Paganism! Now on another matter, (keeping with the ladies Jimbo, stay with me) here is where you show who you really are; if the JW ladies you met with, expressed to you something like “all the 66 Prophesies concerning” Jesus, perhaps this never happened, or you were speaking to another sort. As most everyone knows that there are “66” little books that make up the Bible, and that there are well over 400 hundred prophesies that apply to Jesus! (Don’t get dyslexic on my Jimbo, not God the Son, but God’s Son, a separate person) Did you make this up all by your self! Please even those who oppose of JW’s and who don’t care for them know better! I forgot, you are adept are arguing, which means, you don’t need to know what you are talking about, cause you don’t in order to ARGUE! Continued Below... | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Last Part 3 of 3 I know this is gonna be hard for you to understand Jimbo, but try to stay with me on this OK; In the end, there are smart, average and stupid etc. people in and among all faith’s and walks of life, and to use your (I know you believe you have this Jimbo) “superior” ability against these poor little sheep (Let’s call them, for this example Stupid people, cause to be fair there are stupid people in among JW’s as there are in your Church Jimbo—Now don’t misquote me on this Jimbo, OK?) As to JW’s making mistakes, with dates etc., this is old news, Jimbo as all of God’s creatures make mistakes, (after all this is how they started, pointing out mistakes in scripture) and these are well documented. The issue, oh “wise one” Jimbo (I know you believe you are, I am not complimenting you, Trust Me---Just wish to be crystal clear on this) is that they learned from their mistakes and were never to PROUD to admit the same, in order to change and correct things just like the Prophets, Kings and Apostles before them! None of these Biblical person were infallible, yet they were STILL God’s People! Boy, Jimbo, it is a good thing it was Jesus and not YOU, that dealt with Peter, because not only did he deny Christ those three times, (You do know this right) meaning he made many mistakes in his Christian life and in the Congregation, (also like when he played hypocrite etc.) and yet he was an example of faith worthy of imitation! According Jimbo’s rule of thumb and way of thinking, Peter is a false Christian. Good thing we have the scriptures as an example for things like this when they come up today; Right Jimbo! After expressing yourself about gloating over your (in your mind) treatment of the ladies, you then say, “I was able to break their wall of defence”; what is “defence?” Your ignorance continues to show, zip up your zipper Jimbo, we are laughing at you! If you meant “defiance” you did not describe them as being defiant! If you meant “defense” you did not mention their being offended and needing to defend themselves against the way you attack and argue! You then express, about these poor ladies who had the unfortunate encounter with you that, “They do not know what they are talking about.” While you are entitled to your opinion Jimbo, according your writings one must ask the same thing about you? It is only fair! You further say, “One thing all the Christians must admit. That is, the JW;s are very passionate about what they believe(Right or Wrong)” now that was a honest statement, with no stones thrown, etc. Right or Wrong! And on this note we can agree to disagree. Your last paragraph contradicts what you express as quoted above, and is simply not worthy of reply. Jimbo, wouldn’t it be nice if you could truly behave like a Christian and express yourself, and exchange your views with others, even if you don’t agree? Atheists do this Jimbo! Did you do that with the Nobel Prize winner? If you didn’t then why do you do it here? If not, I feel sorry for anyone who deals with you in life ever, as that kind of treatment is not appreciated by anyone nor is it conducive to good ole, conversation and proper postings! You should feel ashamed and embarrassed over what you express and how you express it this and other posts, but, alas, some people’ simply don’t ever feel shame or embarrassment! So, I forgive you for that! P The End | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 78 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Part 3 of 3 I know this is gonna be hard for you to understand Jimbo, but try to stay with me on this OK; In the end, there are smart, average and stupid etc. people in and among all faith’s and walks of life, and to use your (I know you believe you have this Jimbo) “superior” ability against these poor little sheep (Let’s call them, for this example Stupid people, cause to be fair there are stupid people in among JW’s as there are in your Church Jimbo—Now don’t misquote me on this Jimbo, OK?) As to JW’s making mistakes, with dates etc., this is old news, Jimbo as all of God’s creatures make mistakes, (after all this is how they started, pointing out mistakes in scripture) and these are well documented. The issue, oh “wise one” Jimbo (I know you believe you are, I am not complimenting you, Trust Me---Just wish to be crystal clear on this) is that they learned from their mistakes and were never to PROUD to admit the same, in order to change and correct things just like the Prophets, Kings and Apostles before them! None of these Biblical person were infallible, yet they were STILL God’s People! Boy, Jimbo, it is a good thing it was Jesus and not YOU, that dealt with Peter, because not only did he deny Christ those three times, (You do know this right) meaning he made many mistakes in his Christian life and in the Congregation, (also like when he played hypocrite etc.) and yet he was an example of faith worthy of imitation! According Jimbo’s rule of thumb and way of thinking, Peter is a false Christian. Good thing we have the scriptures as an example for things like this when they come up today; Right Jimbo! After expressing yourself about gloating over your (in your mind) treatment of the ladies, you then say, “I was able to break their wall of defence”; what is “defence?” Your ignorance continues to show, zip up your zipper Jimbo, we are laughing at you! If you meant “defiance” you did not describe them as being defiant! If you meant “defense” you did not mention their being offended and needing to defend themselves against the way you attack and argue! You then express, about these poor ladies who had the unfortunate encounter with you that, “They do not know what they are talking about.” While you are entitled to your opinion Jimbo, according your writings one must ask the same thing about you? It is only fair! You further say, “One thing all the Christians must admit. That is, the JW;s are very passionate about what they believe(Right or Wrong)” now that was a honest statement, with no stones thrown, etc. Right or Wrong! And on this note we can agree to disagree. Your last paragraph contradicts what you express as quoted above, and is simply not worthy of reply. Jimbo, wouldn’t it be nice if you could truly behave like a Christian and express yourself, and exchange your views with others, even if you don’t agree? Atheists do this Jimbo! Did you do that with the Nobel Prize winner? If you didn’t then why do you do it here? If not, I feel sorry for anyone who deals with you in life ever, as that kind of treatment is not appreciated by anyone nor is it conducive to good ole, conversation and proper postings! You should feel ashamed and embarrassed over what you express and how you express it this and other posts, but, alas, some people’ simply don’t ever feel shame or embarrassment! So, I forgive you for that! P | ||
| candice101 New member Username: candice101 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
I am an unbaptized Jw coming from a Southern baptist,non-denom, luthern,LDS,Church of christ,presbitarian, need I name more I attended? I got baptized in the church of christ,I have left the witnesses over 4x's in the past 4 yrs due to outside influence,& I found out Jw's are NOT a cult, however the reason why I am for sure staying now is not because of them totallybut, it is because of Jehovah God.I have been on the window shopping religious crap, I get more bible knowledge from the congregation.My children benifit respecting me better from attending there verses them going off to Sunday School where I can't supervise them,Jesus encouraged children to sit with him when he taught,so therefore children can sit with their parents now. Jehovah's Witnesses ,to me, teach the truth.I don't buy into the RCC teaching of the trinity,& other false ideas, but this is my choice being a Witness & I am very smart. I'm 29yrs young,& a stay at home mother of 3 children& can choose for myself, they donot brainwash you as you might think. Unlike the baptist church that they only accept people going to seminary school to teach a class,(I was there I lived through it)in the Jw congregation all you have to do is become an baptized/unbpatized publisher & when you go to the door you're a "minister" we're on the same level no one is better then the other. I can't wait to be a baptized Witness.Praise Jehovah he is good!} | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 830 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.247.157.3 |
Hello Candice, My apology in advance for the length of this post. Please read the entire post and then comment if you want. I am proud to have a degree in theology, for it has given me the tools to research and undersatnd biblical exegesis in a better way. I want to make a few comments: 1. There are so many denominations that it is hard to find the truth. You were spiritually hungry, thus your "shopping" spree ensued. 2. At the 3 church's (all in the same family) that I have had the opportunity to serve, we view ministry to kids in a different light than most who just babby-sit. We have a very structured program where kids actually learn more than sitting in the main service. The reason? Kids do not learn the same as adults. (Your example of Jesus and children is not a strong foundation for your belief.) We would never send our 8 year olds to a college class would we? No we would not. We also have a stuctured program for our infant and toddlers. We "teach" them on their level. Our program is fast paced; we have differnt activities that keep a childs attention. When teaching children, you have 1 minute for every year of age to keep their attention. People in education understand this, and so do we. We do have certain meetings where the whole family attends. Note: It is very hard to sit through a Kingdom Hall meeting with babies crying and restless children. Look around sometime, how many kids are actually paying attention? How many are drawing or coloring to pass the time? I realize that teens are different, but I also believe in specialized ministry to reach teens, especially those whose families do not attend church. My children can quote more scripture, and understand the scriptures better than the average child sitting in a Kingdom Hall meeting. 3. You are correct, no one is better then the other. However, in the scriptures, there is a special "calling", if you will, of individuals who devote their life to the work of the ministry. While many seminaries are full of liberal, heretical doctrines, there are so many more that teach their students the life giving truths of Jehovah's word, and prepare them to better understand and teach the scriptures. Would you go to a Medical Doctor who read some books, listened to other MD's teach, and then opened up a practice? I would hope not. A trained minister is not "better" than others, he is merely trained how to research using Tetual and Historical critiques, the original languages, etc, and the delivery of the text. I know that my post does not in any way change your thinking. However, having been a bapized JW, I know the falacy of many of their doctrines. I too have been in thee RCC, Baptist, etc. Now, through a relationship with Jesus, I have a relationship with Jehovah God, and I am able to be a true witness of his. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 914 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.124 |
I used to have thorough aversion to the seminaries. Why? Many of them do not even believe in the virgin birth and even resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet, there are others, who prepare students for effective ministry. We can read the Bible for years. But, a systematic study requires knowledge of escatology,hermeneutics, biblical history etc. A structured study alone can teach us how to study the Bible. The questions we must ask are: when were the scriptures written? To whom were they given? Under what contexts they were given? What is the relevance? There is a literal interpretation of every scripture. This is very dangerous. Some people open the Bible for a leading. They came across a scripture," He hung himself". You do likewise. Will someone follow this? certainly not. Literal interpretation of the scriptures is dangerous. Sometimes, the scrioptures are straight. Other times, literal interpretation is inappropriate. In many of the JW publications, it is only literal interpretation. Most of the Bible students have memorized scriptures which is good. However it stays in the mind. They have never allowed the scriptures to go down into the heart where the real function of the Holy spirit occurs. Head knowledge stays above the heart. It is only 10 inches from the head to the heart. There is a Barrier for most of the Bible students. What is this barrier? EGO.THE EGOTIST FEELS, I KNOW EVERYTHING. MY CRITICS ARE DEAD WRONG. I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. Only the Holy spirit can break this barrier, really transform the soul and then the real work will begin. Why is this important? The natural mind does not understand the things of God.Only the mind which is renewed by the Holy spirit can reveal the mind of God. Holy spirit will give the real meaning which is opposed to the literal interpretation of the word of God. Only when we surrender our will to the work of the Holy spirit, we see the transformation of the natural mind and the fruits of the Holy spirit in a Christian's life will manifest.Those who fight against Trinity miss this important work of the Holy Spirit. My father was evangelized by Jehovah's Witnesses for a decade. He read the New world Translation. For 2 years, he prayed and asked the true God to show Himself in person. Oneday, God appeared to my father. It was not Buddha, it was not Muhammed. It was not confusius, It was not even Jehovah. It was Jesus Christ who revealed Himslef on the cross bleeding all over and he saw all his sins through every blood. He surrendered his life to Jesus and he was even poisoned for his faith in Christ. My father asked Him, " Who are you?" He said, I am Jesus Christ. He did not say, I am JEHOVAH. If He had only said He was Jehovah, my father would have been a/witness for Jehovah. But, he became an ardent believer in Jesus Christ, endured persecution and kept his faith till he died. Those who knew him understand how he me the true God.Then he challenged the very same Jehovah's witnesses regarding his encounter with God and how they misguided him. They ostracized my father. He was glad that they did this to him.Otherwise he would have missed his salvation as decribed in Romans. | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 80 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Candice101: Good for you, for expressing your opinion, which is as good as anyone else on this board. As to children being at the meetings, it is good to keep in mind, that Deuteronomy 31:12-13, plainly states, “Congregate the people, the men and the women and the little ones and your alien resident who is within your gates, in order that they may listen and in order that they may learn, as they must fear Jehovah you God and take care to carry out all the words of this law. 13 And their sons who have not known should listen, and they must learn to fear Jehovah your God all the days that you are living upon the soil to which you are crossing the Jordan to take possession of it.” No need to reply to this. Stay well Candice, and thanks for sharing your experiences. P | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 81 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Inkorrekt: (Part 1 of 2) I very much appreciate you post! I very much agree with “most” of what you express in the first three paragraphs (As I do not want to “split-hairs”) with the exception of where you state, “In many of the JW publications, it is only literal interpretation” as that is simply not so, as they ‘go out of their way’ to point out these differences when they do indeed occur. I agree with you that memorization without mediation, in order to apply it to one’s heart, is vital, in one’s worship of God, especially if one is to do it, as Jesus stated in John 4:23 & 24, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” As to your comments regarding egotists and the like, I could not agree more! I hope you are not speaking to JW’s here because, in the end, (whether you don’t like them or disagree with them) they are people like you and I, that come from all walks of life, some educated, and some not, and in the end, humility is a Biblical trait they try to emulate as closely as possible, by following their exemplar, (as they believe this and they are entitled to their opinion just like you are) Jesus Christ, as should anyone professing to be truly Christian. As to the Holy Spirit breaking the barrier, I agree, however the problem is this; when people with opposing views, all claim to have the same God’s Holy Spirit what do you do? So how does one truly know? The scriptures answer this for us, in 1 John 4:1, when it states, “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” and so therefore, the best test, the acid test, is to see if what they say, or express is truly in harmony not in part, but in whole, with the entire body of the Bible as a whole; Why? Because we know for a certainty, that the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, (all can and should agree) all of it, is completely “inspired” by the “same” Holy Spirit (God’s Spirit) people claim to have! And yet, they oppose one another endlessly! (Please, please read; 2 Timothy 3: 16, 17, and also 1 Peter 1: 20, 21, in order to clearly support this from the Bible) Such a “test” would make perfect “Biblical” sense! I hope that you agree. The best way to do what you express as “surrender our will to the work of the Holy spirit” is to show submission or surrender to the “work” of the Holy Spirit, the Bible, as the “standard” or “measuring rod” as it says in 2 Timothy, 3:16, 17, [NIV] All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” This means that the Bible is not lacking in anything, which is what you would expect from a writing that claims divine origin from God Himself! | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 82 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Part 2 of 3 (Sorry for the confusion above listing 2) In the end, I know of no other standard one can use to measure or “test” this with total accuracy, other than with the Bible especially when faced with a an endless barrage of claims in the realm of “human opinions!” And with this “work” or “measuring rod” the Trinity is sorely lacking! At the very least one must admit that the Trinity does have problems in apparent conflict with several Bible texts! Now in your posting I believe that one gets to the crux of the problem, or at the root of your views (no disrespect intended); your father’s experience with the JW’s and with “his” personal experience(s). I am at a disadvantage to address both, as with the JW’s scenario, there are always two sides to every story. As to God speaking to him; you and I, or we, (as I guess others may agree and or even disagree with you here) have a major disagreement for several reasons though only discuss a few here below. The Sons of Korah were blessed with a wonderful relationship with God even though their father was clearly not. This goes to the personal experience from those whom we love, again I am not “belittle-ling” you here, as I am being as sincere and sensitive as I know how to be. Also, I am not sure what you mean that his was “poisoned” but if this means that someone or bodies attempted to do him harm, that is truly a horrible and terrible thing, for which I am sorry you and he had to experience. Further, one can only go to the source we absolutely know is a “work” product of Holy Spirit; Please see again for reference 2 Timothy 3: 16, 17, and also 1 Peter 1: 20, 21, in order to clearly support this from the Bible. Now if several people claim (as many do) that God has appeared or communicates with them personally etc., and yet they disagree vehemently among themselves, you must admit that there is something, at the very least wrong with this! One can be a father of a large family of children, and that father, will have different types of experiences, or relationships with the individual children, but, they will all know who, and what their father is, and what his characteristics are as to know what that father will or will not do, in the human experience of things; and since as humans we are made in God’ s image (how do we know, because the Bible tells us so) so it goes with our experiences as children of God! In fact this is also true with everything we know and get about God in the Bible, about Jesus etc. so therefore, it is unfair to go outside the Bible to get or seek clarification to what is already written. In other words, we all get Jesus from the Bible, so to get a message or have an experience outside of what the Bible already expresses to us is, (you must admit) at best suspect. (Again no disrespect intended) | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 83 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
(Part 3 of 3) Please note what this inspired “work” by Holy Spirit, expresses in Hebrews 1:1, “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.” Please reason on this; if the experiences about people communicating direct with God is true (discounting the opposing views for those equally claiming the same) then you find yourself, at the very least in conflict with this scripture (and many others etc.) as you cannot invalidate this scripture, that clearly tells us that God speaks through Jesus. In effect, people who do this are saying that Jesus’ work is somehow incomplete, and God now needs someone other than Jesus (and if you believe Jesus is God, this really makes no sense) from the people today to speak for him, as his “work” (the Bible) is in effect incomplete in this respect! I am not sure how your father suffered at the hand of the JW’s other than their possibly disagreeing with him. If it was something more, please let me know. I am sorry for your loss, it is apparent that you loved you father very much! Sincerely, P P.S. Please pardon me in advance for grammar or mistakes in spelling as I did this in haste, in between other matters. | ||
| inkorrekt Junior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
What is the function of the Holy Spirit? | ||
| praetorian New member Username: praetorian Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Dear inkorrekt: In a face to face forum I would ask that you first explain what "you" believe the “Holy Spirit” is and then go on to provide a reply. However, since this is not possible here, nor desired (at least by me) I would respectfully request that you would allow me first to take the word "Spirit" alone, by itself first, and then move onto the "Holy Spirit". And in line with that, my response is getting rather lengthy so I respectfully request that you provide me with your email address in order for me to send it from mine in hotmail. My email address is: praetorian_g@hotmail.com Also if anyone wants to see the reply, please contact me here as well! The reason for this, is that at present my reply to you, would take about 12 posts here and thus would not be fair to the board itself. Let me know, as I am working on the reply as I post this! Sincerely, P. | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.250.211.46 |
praetorian said, "Also, it appears you have personal issues, one of which is jealously of those whom you speak of. A person should take pride (balanced of course) in anything that one does, or if not, they should not do it." Does everyone who disagrees with the WTS have "personal" or "emotional" issues? Or is this just an attempt to assasinate the character of the poster? | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: No. I made this statement in view of my observation of your posts, whether this is right or wrong, so be it. You later mentioned personal issues like that of your not speaking to your mother, and friends etc. and that you were hurt or bothered by it, that’s all, I meant. Sorry if I offended you! | ||
| junefever New member Username: junefever Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 67.172.116.155 |
What kind of mind becomes a JW? Here's a short list: 1. Unhappy ("sighing and crying") 2. Socially mal-adjusted--looking for something to validate them 3. Narcissitc: drawn to the idea that they are part of an elite corps of mankind with a special place in history 4. Believes that there has to be an answer for all life's ambiguities (panacea) 5. Have recently suffered a loss or personal downturn that makes them vulnerable 6. Crave approval which they can't find in society at large 7. Are not university or college educated 8. Like the idea of following rules and regulations in order to gain salvation 9. Are suspicious and highly negative about the world 10. Are not good problem solvers; the only way they can cope with dissonance and apparent disconnects is to say "Just rely on Jehovah to make it all better." Again, just a short list. Fairly typical characteristics of people who are drawn to cults in general. | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
PRAETORIAN: If you cannot write direct answers, please do not reply. Your lengthy answers do not mean anything. I am again asking you "WHAT IS THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT"? Only in a few sentences please. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Inkorrekt: You and I have danced this dance before and the result; if I say the sky is blue and it is, you will say it is not! But just to mess with you, and in case there is someone that really wants to know about this that is reading this post; let’s stick to the facts, OK (Valley Girl accent for emphasis with drum roll please) 1. The phrase holy spirit (not capitalized as Greek does not distinguish) 87 times, FACT!!!! I dare you to find me wrong! 2. 49 times of this, it appears with the definite article, and 45 times without the definite article, FACT. 3. For the most part when with a definite article it is translated correctly as holy spirit, FACT. 4. Holy Spirit is translated from various greek phrases, such as (don’t know how to add the correct letters here, so here goes in English letters) pneuma hagion (most common), pneumatic hagioi, labete pneuma hagion and parakletos, etc. FACT. 5. These phrases in Greek no matter which ones above and similar are never personal, but neuter!!!! FACT with few exceptions due to grammer and usage. 6. Primarily when parakletos is used, like in John 14:26, it clearly and unequivocally means “defender” like that of a defense attorney or supporter! FACT. 7. Now the Greek word translated into English as spirit, comes from the Greek word pneuma, means, wind, force, and in fact in John 3:8, (NIV) they translate pneuma as “wind”. FACT. Sorry to disappoint!!!! Not to take up to much time, it has become abundantly clear if you are a truth seeker, and fair minded, that translators of many Bibles have taken liberties with this phrase and have placed into scriptures that it does not belong! But you have done this research so you know all this. In the end, if you take all of its uses, in Hebrew and Greek, in the Bible, you will find that it is a power, force or defender that issues forth from God! And is at times personified, but is NEVER referred to as God AT ALL!!! Dogma, do I hear Dogma for sale!!!!! Short enough!!!! P | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Junefever: What did inkorrket go to his friends to multi-team me! Wow! 1. My wife is one totally happy and so are her friends that I have met! Sorry to disappoint! Yikes! You sound very happy yourself! But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 2. My wife is a scientist and well respected and her friends are also well adjusted. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 3. My wife is not, nor are her friends. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 4. On this you are wrong, they believe that the Bible holds all answers we need to get to know God personally, benefit ourselves today and in the future. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 5. Not sure what you are talking about, but I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 6. I know this may shock you but JW’s are people too!!! But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 7. My wife is a scientist the likes of which few can stand on her platform, though her friends are CPA’ attorney’s and physicians, and many or most who are not. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 8. Yes they do their best to follow the rules and regulations as set forth in the Bible, to bet to know their God, better their life and YES SEEK SALVATION. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 9. My wife is not, nor are her friends, though there are a few to be honest that are; But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 10. I and I am not alone, have seen both sides of this equation, however mainly find them to be problem solvers, just not in the way it is though of in the mainstream, but problem solvers none the less. But to be honest: I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! Ok, you believe they are a cult with their open meetings, etc. and many people believe they are not! Good for you!!!! P | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 164 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Junefever: What did inkorrket go to his friends to multi-team me! Wow! 1. My wife is one totally happy and so are her friends that I have met! Sorry to disappoint! Yikes! You sound very happy yourself! But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 2. My wife is a scientist and well respected and her friends are also well adjusted. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 3. My wife is not, nor are her friends. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 4. On this you are wrong, they believe that the Bible holds all answers we need to get to know God personally, benefit ourselves today and in the future. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 5. Not sure what you are talking about, but I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 6. I know this may shock you but JW’s are people too!!! But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 7. My wife is a scientist the likes of which few can stand on her platform, though her friends are CPA’ attorney’s and physicians, and many or most who are not. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 8. Yes they do their best to follow the rules and regulations as set forth in the Bible, to bet to know their God, better their life and YES SEEK SALVATION. But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 9. My wife is not, nor are her friends, though there are a few to be honest that are; But I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! 10. I and I am not alone, have seen both sides of this equation, however mainly find them to be problem solvers, just not in the way it is though of in the mainstream, but problem solvers none the less. But to be honest: I am told they do have people as you describe among them, gee; I forgot George, that you can find these people anywhere in the world and in all churches too! So what is the point! Ok, you believe they are a cult with their open meetings, etc. and many people believe they are not! Good for you!!!! P | ||
| junefever New member Username: junefever Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 67.172.116.155 |
Do you deny that JWs state they are looking for those "sighing and crying over this system of things"? Do you deny that JWs preach the imminent end of the world as we know it, to be replaced by a new system populated with virtually all JWs. Well, and people resurrected from the dead, who'll themselves get whacked if they don't accept the "truth?" (Heck, if I died and came back to life, I'd sure believe..) Do you deny that JWs teach to essentially shun the world, except to get new converts. That includes not voting, not defending their country, not getting involved in community affairs or improvement projects, discouraging higher education...the list goes on. Sure doesn't sound like your typical happy, well-adjusted, person who is interested in living a good, decent life and pursing happiness in this world would go for the "World's Doomed--Just Wait on God" message the JWs teach. They're too busy enjoying life and bettering themselves and their families. | ||
| junefever New member Username: junefever Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 67.172.116.155 |
"7. Now the Greek word translated into English as spirit, comes from the Greek word pneuma, means, wind, force, and in fact in John 3:8, (NIV) they translate pneuma as “wind”. FACT. Sorry to disappoint!!!!" You might want to check your FACTS. If you do research (outside of JW publications, that is). You'll find that the meaning is "soul, spirit." Not quite the impersonal "force" JWs try to portray it as. "In the end, if you take all of its uses, in Hebrew and Greek, in the Bible, you will find that it is a power, force or defender that issues forth from God! And is at times personified, but is NEVER referred to as God AT ALL!!!" Personified? Why do you think it would be personified? Take a look at some scriptures: Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mark 13:11 - but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Luke 3:22 - And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Luke 12:12 - For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things Acts 5:3 - But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Acts 5:32 - And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 7:51 - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Acts 9:31 - Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied. Acts 13:2 - As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. Acts 15:28 - For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; Acts 16:6 - Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, Acts 20:28 - Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, 2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. 1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. ______________________________________________ How do you blaspheme against an inantimate "active force"? It do you greive it? How do you lie to it? How would it talk? How could it be a witness to something? How could it comfort you? How can it forbid and/or command you to do something? Why is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit so often tied together, and in fact spoken of as one? The JWs lifeless interpretation of the Holy Spirit as "God's active force" makes little sense in the context of the scriptures. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 253 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Junefever: (For your Post 4 above) No, I don’t. No, I don’t. No and yes to parts of this. Many and I for one would clearly beg to differ with you. Knowing the consequences of actions, is only natural and should have an impact on how you feel. P | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 254 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Junefever: (And Craw comment at end) [One of 2 Posts] Your ignorance is showing, zip up your zipper!!! Most if not all of my research resources are not from the JW’s. Which facts specifically do you want me to check, as the ones I quoted from are from non JW’s sources. Also I note that you clearly ignored the reference I provided you in John 3:8. Wind is as impersonal as it gets!!!! I notice that when you quote me, you always tend to quote things out of place and or incomplete. Interesting!!! You ask: “Personified? Why do you think it would be personified?” Personification is used for the attribution of a personal nature or character to inanimate objects or abstract notions etc. so why would you question that! You’re being silly, ignorant and down right dull, not to mention WRONG!!! I won’t waste time with “Wisdom” being personified in the Bible, Trees crying out etc.!!!! The rest you can figure out!!!! I think or at least I thought you had a brain, straw man!!! I repeat a previous statement: "In the end, if you take all of its uses, in Hebrew and Greek, in the Bible, you will find that it is a power, force or defender that issues forth from God! And is at times personified, but is NEVER referred to as God AT ALL!!!" I also repeat some things here below and ask where your answer is on point: 1. The phrase holy spirit (not capitalized as Greek does not distinguish) 87 times, FACT!!!! I dare you to find me wrong! What no Answer? 2. 49 times of this, it appears with the definite article, and 45 times without the definite article, FACT. What no answer? 3. For the most part when with a definite article it is translated correctly as holy spirit, FACT. What no answer? 4. Holy Spirit is translated from various greek phrases, such as (don’t know how to add the correct letters here, so here goes in English letters) pneuma hagion (most common), pneumatic hagioi, labete pneuma hagion and parakletos, etc. FACT. What no answer? 5. These phrases in Greek no matter which ones above and similar are never personal, but neuter!!!! FACT with few exceptions due to grammer and usage. What no answer? 6. Primarily when parakletos is used, like in John 14:26, it clearly and unequivocally means “defender” like that of a defense attorney or supporter! FACT. What no answer? 7. Now the Greek word translated into English as spirit, comes from the Greek word pneuma, means, wind, force, and in fact in John 3:8, (NIV) they translate pneuma as “wind”. FACT. Sorry to disappoint!!!! What no answer? | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 255 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
[Part 2 of 2] You should notice with simple reading that nothing you state, changes the FACTS above as presented!!!! I repeat: “In the end, if you take all of its uses, in Hebrew and Greek, in the Bible, you will find that it is a power, force or defender that issues forth from God! And is at times personified, but is NEVER referred to as God AT ALL!!!” What you propose is would b a contradiction to the FACTS, because if we leave it at what you quote above, then this is what appears to take place, because you cannot ignore what the word “spirit” or “holy spirit” means in the Hebrew or Greek where we get it!!!!! Thus once you know this, you can easily see when a word or phrase is being used in a literal sense, figurative, is being personified etc. But doing these things do not alter the meaning of the actual words and that for which they are intended. The meanings in the Hebrew and Greek, MUST be given consideration when ever you read a scripture as with any literary work!!! I submit to you, if you were speaking of piece of literature that you would have no issues seeing this point above, such as when a person would plainly state, “He Got Blew his Top”, you would know that this does not exactly mean that a person actually “blew their top or head off” but instead that they became very angry!!! So too with expressions in the Bible, and we know and how to understand this because you would stick to the definitions to know the difference. That is why we have dictionaries, lexicons and the like!!! Stop the Madness!!!! Get on a diet! You should pick up the University textbook “Truth in Translation”-Accuracy and Bias in the English Translations of the New Testament” by Jason David Beduhn. Craw can it for you as he can easily drive up to Northern Arizona University and get one in the student bookstore! P | ||
| junefever Junior Member Username: junefever Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 67.172.116.155 |
"Wind is as impersonal as it gets!!!!" The "wind" reference translates in the "breath," or lifegiving source, some call soul. Pneumonia obviously is based on that reference--it affects breathing. Your claim that pneuma means wind in the sense of that which blows the trees is ludicrous. __________________________________________________ "You ask: “Personified? Why do you think it would be personified?” Personification is used for the attribution of a personal nature or character to inanimate objects or abstract notions etc. so why would you question that! You’re being silly, ignorant and down right dull, not to mention WRONG!!! I won’t waste time with “Wisdom” being personified in the Bible, Trees crying out etc.!!!! The rest you can figure out!!!! I think or at least I thought you had a brain, straw man!!!" _______________________________________________ I see. You've resorted to insults because you cannot address the substance of the issues. I'll ask it again: How do you grieve an impersonal force? How do you lie to it? How do you sin against it? How is it a teacher/comfortor? Your "impersonal force" theory isn't upheld in the scriptures. _______________________________________________ "I also repeat some things here below and ask where your answer is on point: 1. The phrase holy spirit (not capitalized as Greek does not distinguish) 87 times, FACT!!!! I dare you to find me wrong! What no Answer? 2. 49 times of this, it appears with the definite article, and 45 times without the definite article, FACT. What no answer? 3. For the most part when with a definite article it is translated correctly as holy spirit, FACT. What no answer? 4. Holy Spirit is translated from various greek phrases, such as (don’t know how to add the correct letters here, so here goes in English letters) pneuma hagion (most common), pneumatic hagioi, labete pneuma hagion and parakletos, etc. FACT. What no answer? 5. These phrases in Greek no matter which ones above and similar are never personal, but neuter!!!! FACT with few exceptions due to grammer and usage. What no answer? 6. Primarily when parakletos is used, like in John 14:26, it clearly and unequivocally means “defender” like that of a defense attorney or supporter! FACT. What no answer? 7. Now the Greek word translated into English as spirit, comes from the Greek word pneuma, means, wind, force, and in fact in John 3:8, (NIV) they translate pneuma as “wind”. FACT. Sorry to disappoint!!!! What no answer?" __________________________________________________ Definitions of pneuma on the Web: spirit; "pneumapathology": spiritual disease (Schelling) home.salamander.com/~wmcclain/ev-glossary.html breath - but more specifically life force - equivalent to chi/qi/ki in oriental arts. www.pankrationacademy.com/key_pankration_terms.htm Pneumatology refers to the study of spiritual beings and phenomena, especially the interactions between humans and God. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneuma Again, "impersonal force" or "wind" does not capture fully the meaning of the word. I don't care how many red herrings about articles and "defenders," you think support the notion }that the Holy Spirit is merely God's Active Force. |
