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shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 175
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 9:11 pm: | 
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If Christians really believe that physical death, for a practising and true Christian, is the start of a new Life with God, then why do they mourn? Surely, if this was a genuine belief, physical death should be a time of rejoicing?
This came to mind when I read of everyone's concern over JOHNNY "CALLED". If God wishes for Johnny to join him now, why do Christians wish to pray otherwise? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3087
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.35.88
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 11:34 pm: |
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the person who has experoanced death, i mean the one who have died , if they were in CHRIST JESUS they have a new beginning and are at peace. if they were not saved they went to hell and have plenty to mourn about. we who are left behing experiance a loss greatly . if you love some one you want to keep them with you. when my wife passed away even though i knew shw was with JESUS , i was heart broken . i "lost" it for a while there. my grief overwhelmed me. i still trusted in JESUS and HE kept me but that did not changew hte fact that i experianced a great loss and was very hurt. |
bluewater2
Senior Member
Username: bluewater2
Post Number: 2455
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.75.252.89
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 11:42 pm: |
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I have also wondered why the Pope always cruises around in a bullet proof box if he is so certain that there is life after death and he will be sitting at the right hand of Jesus.
As to why people mourn someone's death, I would think that it might be due to the empty space that is in all of their lives not that the person is dead. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 133
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:20 am: |
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BW2,
I do not understand why you have to target the Catholic Church in your attacks?
Why do policemen wear bullet proof vests? Why do car makers install air bags? Why do you drive on the correct side of the road? In fact, why do you not drive around at night with your headlights off?
Do you see how rediculous your statement about the pope is?
That being said, I actually agree with your last statement. Those who are left behind experience a loss. They have good, and unfortunately bad, memories of those who have passed on and long to be able to hug them and tell them how much they love them.
The mourning, then, is not for the dead, but instead it is for those who remain. The Catholic Church actually does call it a celebration. This does not mean that we are celebrating the person's death, but instead we are celebrating his/her new life with Christ in heaven. I hope that helps. |
bluewater2
Senior Member
Username: bluewater2
Post Number: 2456
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.75.252.89
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:39 am: |
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The fact of the matter is that the Pope is nothing but a figure head who has no belief in the after life and therefor cruises around in a bullet proof box. Anyone who fears death on one hand yet says they believe in the afterlife and that one day they will be siting at the right hand of Jesus is a hypocrate or is insincere in their beliefs. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 134
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 1:18 am: |
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BW2,
You are obviously the bigot here. Do you go around purposely putting your life in harms way?
You are rediculous! From where do you get such vile speech? I am offended by your remarks as being very childish. You veer from the target of this thread to attack my church out of nowhere. Grow up! |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2213
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.96.51.125
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 8:46 am: |
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Why mourn death?
Because there is no evidence of any life other than this one and each life is unique. Therefore, the feeling of loss and remorse of that loss. It is a perfectly natural behavior. Prolonged mourning can of course be unhealthy and should be discouraged, but acknowledging the passing of a loved one and feeling the corresponding emotions is simply something a human being does.
Rejoicing over death, as in a celebration of the person's life is one thing, but celebrating their death's for death's sake is forgoing reality for fairy tales and superstition and is anti-life. A celebration of death is an affront to life. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2484
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 9:58 am: |
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Why mourn death.
Well, we have lost something very precious to us when one we care for dies. It is a natural response. We miss those we can no longer see and share life with. Those who believe in an afterlife have hope of seeing their loved again(maybe) but it still doesn't shake the sorrow... R |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 770
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 11:21 am: |
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Rachel, perfectly stated. I will add that we might mourn for others whom we know are hurting or affected. We worry about how someone might cope and the problems that death sometimes brings to the loved ones. This has nothing to do with an afterlife. You could be comforted in having a belief in an afterlife, and that comfort just might help one cope with the loss. But as you said, the loss is still there. Someone who exhibits joy over a loved ones passing may end up with some emotional issues. Mourning is a natural response to a loss and I believe everyone has to mourn the death of a loved one, that is if they are normal. I am told that even animals experience mourning, but that is not an area I am familiar with. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3095
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.35.88
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 1:41 pm: |
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i still mourn the loss of my wife even though shae has been gone for almost 9 years will be this feb 16th. i know she is in glory with THE LORD nad is at peace there but the loss of her is still here. some say you wouldnt want her back in the sufferings of her life, but i cant say that i would take her back sick or well i would take her back if i had to wait on her hand and foot for the rest of my life for i loved her and her alone of all the women in this world. |
hillariousharry
Junior Member
Username: hillariousharry
Post Number: 42
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 86.134.44.138
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 3:00 pm: |
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hi Rachel,
Your words "it is a natural response"....it says it all really.
Yes moments of thanksgiving for a loved one who has passed into the joy of heaven....but try and shy away from the natural human emotions which accompany loss, may lead one into a repressed state which leads to concerning health.
My logic is to look heavenward but keep my feet firmly on the ground with a balanced outlook and such involves allowing all that comes with bereavement to take its natural course.
HH
(Message edited by hillariousharry on January 02, 2007) |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 180
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 9:59 pm: |
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So it is really nothing more than self pity? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3097
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.35.88
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:36 pm: |
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are you refering to me or asking me ?? no it is not self pity it is LOVE which obvisly you know nothing about |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 146
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:22 am: |
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Arron,
I will pray for you, brother. I read your post about losing your wife. I never had that experience, but my wife and I lost a little daughter still born. A few years later my wife had a seizure and the doctors barely got my son out in time. She and him are both miracles in my life thanks to God and the quick intervention of doctors. My wife is a nurse, now, as a result. It is something that has meaning for her. She saw how others came to help us, and she feels that it is her turn and that she needs to be an instrument of God to help others. She is amazing and they love her at the hospital.
If I were a bettin' man I would bet that Christ is your hope to deal with the pain of a loss. I agree, it is love not self pity. Although, in my case I can see where self pity can come through. I questioned God alot for a while, but then finally decided that death is not a respector of age.
You can walk around the graveyard and see young to old. You will notice tombstones of infants, middle age, and those who died in old age.
I still think about the tragedy I experienced in losing a child and in losing my dad. However, as I am sure you do, my heart reaches out in longing for them. On our little girl's tombstone is a depiction of Noah's Ark and a saying, "Our souls wait to join you!"
Someone who has gone through such pain of loss understands that. We are on this blog I suppose to have a better understanding of life after death and to understand what leads us up to that point.
We deal with death; we move on; but we don't forget. 1 Corinthians 15 says it right:
16: For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19: If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 183
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 6:20 am: |
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Perhaps someone has an interpretation of what Jesus meant when he told someone to "let the dead bury the dead". The story, as far as I can remember, was about someone who wanted to bury his dead relative instead of going immediately with Jesus. My interpretation is that there are plenty of Spiritually ignorant (dead) people to take care of the physically dead. Spiritual people need not concern themselves with such things. |
yaqakallah
New member
Username: yaqakallah
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 68.110.28.40
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 8:48 am: |
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Rachel,
I don't know if this is the right thread or not. But I wanted to tell you how sorry I was to hear of your Mother's death and that I felt the same as you do. These 'name it claim it", 'Properity teaching', 'Faith healers' etc(Televangelist....uugh!(most of them)) are teaching false Doctrines only to line their pockets and THEY will pay harshly for what they have done.
You are a strong woman and did the right thing. It was your mother's choice.
Just wanted to let you know I did not know that about your Mom and wanted to also tell you how much I respect and love you sister!
Kim |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2508
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 10:28 am: |
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Thanks Kim-that means a lot to me.I am so hurt and embarrased sometimes by her choice that this is the only place I have felt free to discuss it because "normal" folks would be very angered by her decision.
I just don't know if people understand how influential these men and women evangelists are-we laugh and we call them corny but there are many who feel they are prophets of God and they feel so much love from their ministry. But they can be dangerous.
I am sorry I took this off topic and I am a person who does not like pity- in fact I hate people to feel sorry for me- I just want others to be aware! In fact someone came to me the other day and said R, I haven't seen you for years how are your parents,do they still live on so and so street? And I said no they don't live there anymore-I never told them she passed away-I just don't want to hear ahhh you poor thing. I guess that is stupid but maybe it is my own way of mourning... R |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 775
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 10:31 am: |
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shem
Referring (I think) to mourning you said, “So it is really nothing more than self pity?” Mourning is a necessary reaction to a loss of a loved one. If it is dwelled upon too long it can become somewhat psychotic. If there is no mourning, there is probably something very wrong inside mentally. I still mourn the loss of my father, over 15 years ago, but I rarely think about it anymore. I still mourn the loss of my first wife about 5 years ago, but now that I am remarried, I rarely think about that either. Unless they are not psychologically intact, anyone who has experienced the loss of a loved one knows exactly what I am saying here. Mourning is not self pity, it is healing. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2217
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.26
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 10:42 am: |
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Isn't to deny grief to deny a part of your humanity? In truth, funerals are for the living not the dead. Coping with loss is a routine human experience and not some aberration to be ignored.
"My interpretation is that there are plenty of Spiritually ignorant (dead) people to take care of the physically dead. Spiritual people need not concern themselves with such things."
Wow. So if there are not lower order beings around to bury your dead for you, you just let 'em rot were they fall eh? Perhaps you're aren't being that stern about it but it sounds extremely callous to me and haughty.
At any rate, Jesus did tell several people to abandon their families and their possessions to follow him to the point of not stopping to bury a dead father.
Quite frankly, I find that whole business of disposable families reprehensible myself and see nothing particularly "spiritual" about it. It certainly isn't humane and nothing I would care to emulate. It is a good example of the disparity in what people think about Jesus and what he really said.
The responsible and humane response to death is grief and respect for the dead. That means insuring dead bodies are not abused and that they are properly disposed out of concern for public health and respect for the individuals memory.
That's my secular humanist atheist opinion at any rate. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 187
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 7:37 pm: |
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Let me ask you all a question. Do you consider members of your 'own' family as more important to you than anyone else on earth? Do you 'love' them more?
God and Jesus, I am sure, would consider everyone as equals, and deserving of no special attention, and thus they Love us equally.
When Queen Elizabeth II eventually dies, millions who have never even met her will, no doubt, feel heart-broken; yet millions of other British people will feel nothing at all. Why the difference in feelings between people? Is it a Spiritual question (the love and devotion that many have for an earthly sovereign)?
The answer is that any kind of love which picks and chooses individuals, is NOT the PURE SPIRITUAL LOVE OF GOD.
In fact, in order to know and experience genuine LOVE, one MUST KNOW and EXPERIENCE GOD (who IS LOVE). The love that this world experiences is merely 'emotional' / 'psychic' / 'mental' love. This is also the love that people have for some imagined 'god' or 'saviour' figure, whom they have never actually met and KNOWN. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3105
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.35.88
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 10:50 pm: |
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there is a time of greif and a time of joy that is what the bible teaches i have my time of grief with my dear wife whom i love with all my heart, yes you heard me still love her even though she is passed away, for i still consider her alive on the other side. i will carry my greif with me till the day i pass away or better yet be caught up in the rapture. i am sure that one day you will have some one who is dear to you to pass and you will feel the effects.... my dear old shem |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 154
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 11:33 pm: |
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Kim,
I agree. Some of these tele-vangelists are out to make money. I have been disgusted here lately with the beauty cream advertising that alot of them have been doing lately...has nothing to do with God. It is just a ploy to make money.
Now I call them non-prophet organizations. LOL  |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 190
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 7:10 am: |
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Arron,
My father, and mother, and brother have all passed away. I saw my mother in hospital the day before she died, and when I recieved a phone call the next day from my sister, informing me that she had died, I decided that I did not want to see her body - as I would rather remember her as she was when alive. I feel no wish to see dead bodies. What is the point? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3108
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.35.88
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 7:38 am: |
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the point is that people do greive. people do have feelings and are not as cold hearted as some who say they dont greive. love is a powerful emotion and when you love some one ues you will greive at their passing, weather seeing their dead body or not. some dont get to see their loved ones who pass but they still greive. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 163
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 67.135.19.86
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 10:20 am: |
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Shem,
I understand how you want to remember the good about a person. There's nothing wrong with that. However, as someone stated earlier in this forum, who is going to 'do the clean up'?
Funeral homes have a very important duty. That doesn't make them infidels just because they deal with the dead. In fact, I know the owner in our town. He is a very reverant and pious man...and a Catholic. He does alot for the community other than dealing with the dead.
He does have a sense of humor, though. A Catholic man and his family moved to our town. When he met Dan, he asked about his profession. Dan jokingly replied, "You don't want me to be the last person to see you! If you make an appointment with me...you're checkin' out!" |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 779
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 12:04 pm: |
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c_man,
I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with wanting to remember someone as they once were. This is what pictures and memories are for. Usually though, it is very beneficial for the emotional healing process to actually see, and grieve the loss of loved one. I have heard of cases where individuals did not grieve, actually appeared happy because they just knew their loved ones were in paradise, and later had emotional breakdowns. It seems to me that failing to grieve can have very negative consequences. But then again, maybe the loss was not really that important to them, something like the passing of a well liked past president. Sorry to see the passing, but except for those who personally knew him, no big deal. |
bee
Intermediate Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 110
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.238.13.202
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 4:48 pm: |
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And Sarah died in Kirjatharba the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan: and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her. Genesis 23:2
Jesus wept. Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! John11:35-36 |
bee
Intermediate Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.238.13.202
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 4:55 pm: |
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arron, i have kept your words close to heart that i have read on the loss of your wife. i remember you & hope the Lord wraps you in His love until He reunites you with your wonderful wife. Bless You! |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 192
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 6:55 pm: |
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Aaron,
You got it right when you said: "love is a powerful emotion." This kind of love (i.e. worldly / carnal) which you mention, is the kind of love I have been describing as 'pseudo-love'. However, true LOVE, the LOVE of God, is NOT an EMOTION! Only genuine Gnosis of God can reveal TRUE LOVE.
} |
yaakov2
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov2
Post Number: 580
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.192.99.67
| | Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 8:05 am: |
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Shem
Perhaps someone has an interpretation of what Jesus meant when he told someone to "let the dead bury the dead". The story, as far as I can remember, was about someone who wanted to bury his dead relative instead of going immediately with Jesus. My interpretation is that there are plenty of Spiritually ignorant (dead) people to take care of the physically dead. Spiritual people need not concern themselves with such things.
Yes, this is a prime example of why jesus can not be considered as a messiah or a prophet. A prophet by definition, is one who doesn’t attempt to change, delete, or add to G-d’s commandments. G-d gave us specific instructions to honor our parents, which includes burying them when they die and sitting shiva for one week to honor their lives. That man was told to abandon that law because sitting shiva would inconvenience jesus.
I feel no wish to see dead bodies. What is the point?
The undertaker is the only one that is required to see the body. However, G-d commanded us to honor our parents with funeral observances. The point is to follow G-d’s commandments because they are for our own benefit. G-d tells us how we should behave to be good people. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 207
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 10:18 pm: |
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Yaakov2,
You said: "A prophet by definition, is one who doesn’t attempt to change, delete, or add to G-d’s commandments."
This is not exactly the definition of 'prophet'! The word means a 'SEER' of God, i.e. a 'Visionary' / 'Mystic' / 'Gnostic', or one who SEES God clearly "face to face".
Your definition of God's 'commandments' seems to be only what is written in the Torah. A genuine Prophet, however, does not need to use books - for he has direct contact with God, and can overrule anything which is falsely written within any book. |
yaakov2
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov2
Post Number: 582
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 67.8.213.220
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 11:04 pm: |
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Yeah, I made my post overly broad on 1/05, but I forgot to go back and edit it. I should have said "this is a prime example of why jesus can not be considered as a messiah or a prophet according to Judaism". Obviously, you guys consider him as such.
In Judaism, the definition is exactly as I stated. Deut 13:1-6 tells how to recognize a false prophet. Nowhere does G-d tell us to follow His commandments temporarily or just until some event occurs. G-d specifically tells us that a person that tells us to overrule anything in Torah is a false prophet that is condemned to death. G-d's commands in the Tanakh are Eternal, never to be changed. Any changes are, by definition, anti- G-d. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 208
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 5:29 am: |
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Yaakov2,
You talk about 'God' telling us this and that. What you should say is that your religious 'books' tell you these things - quite different. |
hillariousharry
Member
Username: hillariousharry
Post Number: 65
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 81.156.172.110
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 7:33 am: |
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Yaakov2 - I agree with your statement (7.1.06).
The bible gives guidance to Xians. But so many Xians get into the habit of allowing what you state, to roll off their tongues as casual as dishing up fish and chips.
It could be seen by some as using the Lord's Name in vein when one goes on and on about "God telling us this and that".( outside the pages of the Bible).
I believe that God does speak in ways apart from the Bible, but I think you are generally right and therefore I would say to Xian....get into the Bible and keep a distance from what may become silly yet serious fanaticism.
The other thing is that Xians often ask for God help expecting answers, when in actual fact in those situations, they are quite able to use the brain given to them.
Perhaps some do it in order to support an air of spirituality.
HH
HH |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 211
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 5:15 pm: |
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yaakov2,
I agree that God's true Law is perfect and eternal, and so will never change. What I cannot agree about with you or the orthodox Christians is that the written laws in the OT have been much corrupted and "materialised". I have given examples of this in previous threads (e.g. blood Sacrifices, etc.). The only way to know God's true Law is from direct revelation from God. This is the purpose and work of the many Prophets from God who continually come to Earth - whether we accept them or not. |
yaakov2
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov2
Post Number: 583
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 67.8.213.220
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 5:44 pm: |
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Shem
G-d dictated the Torah to Moses. The copies made ever after are exact duplicated of what G-d said. So, if our bible says it, then we know that G-d said it. When you say A genuine Prophet, however, does not need to use books - for he has direct contact with God, and can overrule anything which is falsely written within any book.
Your statement falls within the warnings that G-d told us of how to recognize false prophets.
It is really quite simple and straightforward. Disagree with Torah equals disagreeing with our G-d. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 212
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 8:48 pm: |
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Yaakov2,
You stated: "G-d dictated the Torah to Moses. The copies made ever after are exact duplicated of what G-d said. So, if our bible says it, then we know that G-d said it."
This is merely YOUR (and religion's) BELIEF. That does not make it so! Such beliefs are merely what you and your ancestors have been indoctrinated with since childhood. There are many contradictions and errors in both the Hebrew and the NT Bibles. |
chesed
Intermediate Member
Username: chesed
Post Number: 222
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.75.252.89
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:41 pm: |
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Hi everyone, it's been a while since I last posted. I want to add something to this thread that is more on topic than it seems to have been going.
(Though, Shem, when you say that the only way to know G-d's true law is through direct revelation, I thought of a good book I read a couple years back called Under the Banner of Heaven. Yeah, it's about Mormons and there's the direct revelation leading to murder)
Hey, and murder is a good segway to my next thought. I attended a memorial yesterday for a 44 yr-old father of 3, (kids ages 8,5, and 3) who was shot to death while eating at a cafe last Saturday night. It was random, all on tape by a security camera and the guy who did it is still free. There were at least 200 people at this father's memorial. I knew him because his kids go to the same school as my kids and he is very involved with the PTA, as I am.
So, why was there not a dry eye in the room while the letter the oldest son wrote to his dad was being read by his third grade teacher? Why do we all mourn his death? It is the void that is left by his loss for those of us living. The wife who sleeps alone now when just days earlier he was there next to her. The children who will never go camping again with their dad. That's where the mourning comes from.
Thinking he is in a better place is just a way to help us all feel better. It comforts me little, for there was so much more for him to accomplish here with the living.
So thanks for letting me get my thoughts out. I will continue to mourn for those I lose for I am human and G-d made me this way.
Thank G-d for that. |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4775
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:59 pm: |
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Good post chesed. Good explanation!  |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 214
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 12:45 am: |
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Perhaps, if we make God our number one Love, and focus on Him, we would not be left feeling empty and alone, or feeling a void in our lives on the departure of someone close to us? |
chesed
Intermediate Member
Username: chesed
Post Number: 223
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.75.252.89
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 1:03 am: |
|
I don't believe that it was G-d's intention in creating humans to have us love only G-d. I don't believe G-d is that selfish.
I have many loves, my children, my man, my family, my traditions, my work, my country, and I could go on and on.
G-d knows I love G-d. I don't believe G-d would want me to only love G-d.
Do you only love G-d, shem? |
hillariousharry
Member
Username: hillariousharry
Post Number: 71
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 81.156.172.110
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 2:49 am: |
|
I Shem
Feeling empty and alone when I lose a loved one, is for me, a natural part of my make up and all its emotions. Didnt Jesus experience the same feelings when He walked the earth?
Take away such feelings and I become incomplete and abnormal.
Such can never be changed cos that's the way we were made.
The grieving process with all its sadness and pain is also so vital in order to achieve work through the neddful healing process.
Perhaps needful sometime to understand more about our human make-up.
It would be illogical to try and change it or to blank out such emotions. Unless one is somewhat abnormal then that would be very difficult to achieve, for me at least. But I dont wish to even go down that road. lol
HH |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 215
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 4:32 am: |
|
It would seem that Jesus did not have the 'normal' emotional attachments (i.e. worldly love) to blood relatives etc. that most people have.
"And one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking to speak to thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand towards his disciples, and said, Behold, my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12:47-50). |
ms_me
New member
Username: ms_me
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 76.3.102.180
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 6:02 am: |
|
WHY DO WE MOURN...? I SAW ALOT OF THINGS THAT MADE ALOT OF SENSE AND THE OTHERS I WILL JUST OVERLOOK.
I REMEBER WHEN MY MOM DIED IN 2001 I WAS ACTUALLY RELIEVED, I WAS NOT HAPPY SHE WAS GONE, JUS GLAD THAT HER SUFFERING WAS. I WAS BLESSED WITH THE CHANCE TO DO SOMETHING THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET TO DO... SAY GOODBYE. SHE ALSO TOLD ME EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTED FROM ME... WHICH WAS TO BE HAPPY AND GO ON WITH LIFE... YA SEE MY MOTHER DIED OF BREAST CANCER AND WAS SICK FOR A FEW YRS, SO THAT MEANS I HAD TO FACE DEATH HEAD ON, AND BY THE TIME SHE WAS GONE I KNEW IT WAS TIME AND HAD COME TO GRIPS WITH THAT REALITY. I MISS HER AND ALWAYS WILL. EVEN THOUGH THE PAIN NEVER GOES AWAY, IT GETS EASIER.
WE ALL KNOW THAT IN SOME CULTURES THEY CELEBRATE DEATH AND MOURN THE BIRTH OF CHILDREN, WELL IN MY CULTURE THAT IS SO MUCH EASIER SAID THAN DONE. I ACTUALLY TOLD THOSE CLOSE TO ME THAT WHEN I DIE THROW A HUGE PARTY AND CELEBRATE MY LIFE AND THE TIMES WE ALL SHARED, SIT AROUND AND TELL OLD STORIES ABOUT THE SILLY MESS I DID AND GOT MYSELF INTO... MAKE IT A DAY OF LOVE FOR EACH OTHER AND LOVE FOR ME... WE ALL KNOW THAT LIFE GOES ON AND JUST BECAUSE SUM1 IS GONE DOES NOT MEAN THE WORLD WILL JUST STOP.. BILLS WILL STILL COME, BUSINESSES WILL WILL STILL SELL, CONSUMERS WILL STILL BUY,THE PLACE I WORK WILL STILL BE OPEN AND PEOPLE WILL STILL BE ON FACTNET.COM MESSAGING ABOUT WORLDY MATTERS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. NONE WILL EVEN SUSPECT THAT I AM GONE, OR GIVE A FAT BABIES SMOOTH BOTTOM. THATS WHAT I WANT, BUT ONCE AGAIN IT IS EASIER SAID THAN DONE.
MANY OF YOU SAID IT BEST WHEN YOU SAID IT IS A NATURAL HUMAN REACTION... THAT PAIN OF KNOWING SUM1 YOU LOVED IS NO LONGER RIGHT THERE BY YOUR SIDE.. I GUESS HUMAN NATURE IS JUST THAT..... HUMAN NATURE... THAT IS MY FINAL ANSWER. |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 786
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 9:34 am: |
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shem, didn't Jesus cry when he heard Lazarus died?
Matt: 11:33-36 "When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled. And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. Jesus wept. Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!"
You see, being in human form, even Jesus exhibited emotions. If he didn’t, he was demonstrating proper reactions to a loss. Mourning is a very important human emotion. Any psychologist will tell you the same. Avoid mourning and you will likely have bigger emotional issues in the future. Maybe even more important, the attitude that you don’t need to mourn may cause you to be very callous towards someone else when they have a real need to mourn. A spouse’s sibling dies in a tragedy and you tell them to be happy. What will that do for the marriage? |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 217
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 6:07 pm: |
|
ba2,
Does it make any sense to you, if Jesus truly held power over (physical) life and death, and could bring Lazarus (or anyone else) back to life, that he would be in any way upset over such death? It seems that there is something wrong with this passage.
"When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled."
This could be interpreted that he was upset at THEIR weeping. The verse about Jesus weeping could easily have been a scribal addition - something which they imagined Jesus would have done? This kind of thing happened often in copying scriptures and is one of the reasons we cannot rely on books - we need a living Master to KNOW the Truth. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 213
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 2:47 am: |
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When there is life there is hope. When our loved ones are still alive, we imagine doing all of these wonderful things with them whether we actually accomplish it or not. Yet, we have the confidence that we COULD. This is because of the intellect God gave us.
Therefore, when a loved on passes away, then our hope of being able to do these things with them again disappears. And the times that we remember when we successfully participated with them in various events makes us long for those moments to come back. We are sad, because we know that here on earth it is impossible.
Yet, here is where the God believers separate from the rest. We receive comfort that we shall be with them in the afterlife. I do not have statistical information, but I would make and educated guess that people who have religious hope generally overcome the grieving process much faster. The exception would be those who use death as a launch pad to ask God 'Why?' and attack him for their loss...just an observation. |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 789
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 9:45 am: |
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shem,
You missed the whole point. Whether or not Jesus wept was not the issue, just an illustration, mourning is the question that you proposed and it seems everyone else on this board sees the need for it. I truly feel sorry for anyone who has a relationship with anyone so callus that they can dismiss something as emotionally debilitating as the death of a loved one. Every person mourns, although the length of time needed may vary according to the circumstance and individual. Death of a loved one affects everyone’s emotions; the exception would be the psychopath. |
ms_me
New member
Username: ms_me
Post Number: 19
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 69.34.153.35
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 11:00 am: |
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YOU GO@ BA2.... VERY WELL PUT.... |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 791
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 11:34 am: |
|
ms_me
I didn't comment on your earlier post. I experienced the same with my wife when she passed a few years back. I understand the relief. But that does not suggest we don’t mourn. I am very relieved that she no longer suffers. I am very relieved that the very difficult tasks required from the family when caring for the ill are no longer needed. I am very grateful that I was allowed the time to say goodbye. Yes, there was some celebration with the passing. How that is done varies from culture to culture. My culture is probably similar to yours, we sat around and reminisced the happy times with old stories, joking and laughing. This all helped, but when the day was done and everyone stopped coming around, the mourning set in. I have since remarried so the loneliness is gone, but I will always miss her. It has been a hard hill for me to climb which I have finally got over, I do hope you all is well with you now too. Keep those good memories. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 226
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 8:46 pm: |
|
ba2,
I think you are missing the point. If there is no such thing as death (speaking Spiritually), then what is the need to mourn? I know that there is no such thing as death - it is merely an illusion of the blind. I know that all people are eventually destined to find God, no matter how long it might take them. Physical death is merely a passing to another life. Even science has proved that energy (also life) cannot be created or destroyed, merely the form (of energy / life) may be changed. That is why there is no need to mourn. Those who mourn are ignorant of the Truth, or they simply mourn their own emptiness. |
chesed
Intermediate Member
Username: chesed
Post Number: 224
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.75.252.89
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:12 am: |
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Shem,
Have you had anyone close to you die? How did you feel?
These questions I ask in true sincerity, for your insistence that there is no need to mourn is curious.
Also, I still have not had the pleasure of reading your answer to my previous question on whether you only love G-d. I do understand that I only asked yesterday but you've engaged ba2 for many posts since.
BTW, ba2 I agree that Jesus mourned for he was human just as we are. |
fullofquestions
Member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:20 am: |
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Mourning is part of human nature. Losing someone is tuff. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 230
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 2:29 am: |
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Chesed,
To answer your questions on love (or Love) it would depend on what you mean by L/love. Most people's use of the word is not Spiritual (Love), but merely refers to an 'attachment'. The term "falling in love" is a good example - like 'falling' into a pit! This kind of love (attachment) comes and goes - it is not constant and eternal (look at the divorce rates). Also, we tend to think of our 'own' families and friends as somehow 'special', instead of realising that all people are equally special. If you hear of strangers suffering in one way or another (as millions do every day, especially of starvation and disease in Africa or Asia) does it give you the same kind of feeling that you would have if it was your own children? God's Love is Universal and Eternal. This is Spiritual Love. This is the Love I talk about. The other kind is mere worldly attachments, and not worth talking about. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2236
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 11:19 am: |
|
"God's Love is Universal and Eternal. This is Spiritual Love. This is the Love I talk about. The other kind is mere worldly attachments, and not worth talking about."
Let me get this straight. An unconditional Spiritual Love (SL) for all humankind trumps the love for another individual to such a degree that love for individuals doesn't exist or is to be looked at as unnecessary or undesirable? Did I get that right?
That doesn't sound very desirable to me and I don't see its superiority to 'romantic love' existing along side a concern for the entire species.
It sounds like SL as you describe it would lead to everyone remaining single. Is that right? Because if it is I would like to discuss that at length. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 231
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 5:11 pm: |
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trainedobserver,
Yes, genuine Love is far superior to mere selfish 'attachment' to individuals. There is no comparison. If and when everyone in the world actually realises and experiences this, there will be no need for the world (hell) to continue - no need for procreation - for everyone would be existing Spiritually in Heaven. |
bee
Intermediate Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 112
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.235.3.148
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 5:47 pm: |
|
Shem,
While I agree that to be touched by the Almighty is a feeling & love that nothing here on earth can touch, we are still here & to be witnesses for Christ while He tarries. Have you ever considered that He gave us a new command before He left the earth, to love one another? Now possibly don't you think that very love that we are to give another may be the very thing to lead them to Jesus through the Father & by His leading?
I think I hear your heart & understand that here it can be hell but we are promised that He will never leave us & He also gives us the love of true brethern in the faith. Sometimes that is hard to find but even if we find a few true to the faith it is a sweet blessing. Shem I pray that He gaurds your heart until He sets everything in right order & yes I agree, I am not sure why but it does seem that earthly relationships such as marriage hold no place in heaven. If I am wrong someone feel free to include your thoughts. Shem Bless You. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 234
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 6:51 pm: |
|
bee,
You said: "He gave us a new command before He left the earth, to love one another?"
Why do you say this was a "new" command? I know it is reported that Jesus said it was "new", but if so, He obviously meant that it might be a new 'UNDERSTANDING' for His listeners. Loving one-another (i.e. 'ALL' living beings) was an ETERNAL command from the very beginning. The whole point of everything - to Love one-another. This does not mean particular chosen 'attachments'. |
bee
Intermediate Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 113
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.238.24.110
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 7:26 pm: |
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Shem,
I agree "This does not mean particular chosen attechments" if you are meaning marriage. In fact there are scriptures that imply if you marry you will have problems in this world & if you can remain single it is probably better, but if you marry it is not sin. IMHO Jesus said new because to love this way, 1st.Cor13 is only able to be done if one is born again otherwise we are helpless to love this way, we are to full of ourselves to love anyone else as Christ did. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 235
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 9:47 pm: |
|
bee,
I LOVE you (all of you). |
bee
Intermediate Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 114
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.235.6.146
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:23 pm: |
|
Shem,
Do not know how to respond to that except I guess you must have been touched by God's love to be able to say such. I have read some of your posts & I could be wrong but I think deep down you love Jesus just hate what takes away from Him or God. Am I close? I think God puts love in our hearts for others & lays love on our hearts for another, so I love you with the love of Jesus. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3137
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.169.14.8
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 8:33 am: |
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nello bee glad to see you back. we all, or i do at least miss seeing you on the thread. i am doing fine how are you? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3138
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.169.14.8
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 8:38 am: |
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yes it is written that it is a new command but yet an ok=ld one we had from the begining. i believe it was written again because we are freed from the old "law of commanments " but yet we are to keep some ion our hearts and minds and put them to work in our lives. i dont really need a set of written commandments to guide me as i have THE HOLY GHOST abiding withing me to lead m,e into all truths. |
bee
Intermediate Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 115
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.238.15.48
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 9:38 am: |
|
Arron,
Thanks for the kindness. I am doing fine in the Lord & hope the same for you. I left you a message on this thread Jan.4th. but you may have missed it with all the many threads these days. I am resting in the Lord these days & letting Him teach me, it is something how He opens our understanding as we go along. I may not post as I did in the past but like to read the threads as the Lord leads & respond when I feel to. Stay strong in Jesus! |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2240
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.14
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:56 am: |
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no need for procreation - for everyone would be existing Spiritually in Heaven.
How did you acquire that information? On what grounds should I believe what you say? Just where is this 'heaven' you speak of?
Mortification of the body, denial of the senses, celibacy, are not things you would see in a healthy normal functioning human being. I really see no 'spirituality' in anyone denying their human nature. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 237
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 8:43 pm: |
|
trainedobserver,
I aquired that information from "intuition" (i.e. 'inner' Spiritual learning = Gnosis) from deep meditation. You should not 'believe' anything that anyone says - you should DISCOVER and KNOW the Truth for yourself. Heaven is deep withinside of you (and everyone), just as Jesus said: "The Kingdom of God (Heaven) is within you."
You said: "Mortification of the body, denial of the senses, celibacy, are not things you would see in a healthy normal functioning human being. I really see no 'spirituality' in anyone denying their human nature."
I would ask you what is a 'healthy' and 'normal' human being? Have you heard about 're-birth' into a 'NEW' Life? What is this 'New Life'? Is it 'normal'? Is it 'healthy'? What is really so different about this New Spiritual Life? |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2242
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.22
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 9:54 am: |
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I aquired that information from "intuition" ...
Is there any other human endeavor where 'intuition' and 'revealed knowledge' is claimed to accurately and consistently describe reality other than in 'religious' or 'spiritual pursuits'?
"Heaven is deep withinside of you"
I see, you are talking about a mental state rather than some 'location.' The fact that meditation can bring about altered states of consciousness such as satori, bliss, nirvana, etc. has been shown to not be isolated to one type of practice over another. To insist that only one practice and nothing else works ignores this fact.
In the real world, many things appear to be one thing when they are indeed something else The mental states that yogis, shamans, and prophets have misunderstood in the past as supernatural or otherworldly in nature are in fact, natural, and entirely generated by human biology.
"I would ask you what is a 'healthy' and 'normal' human being? "
Nature tells us what is healthy and normal for human beings. We have the teeth and mandibles of omnivores. A male and female are required to reproduce. Humans are social animals and generally require interaction with others for emotional and intellectual growth.
Investigating the natural universe around us and the living things in it reveal the 'norm' and the 'abnormal', the 'successful' and 'unsuccessful' patterns in nature.
"Have you heard about 're-birth' into a 'NEW' Life? What is this 'New Life'? "
Yes, of course I have. I have experienced it myself and know many others who have as well. The 'New Life' is a psychological phenomena which again, is not isolated to one religious or spiritual practice. It exists in every culture and goes by many names. Often born of some personal crisis or 'significant emotional event' a person will seem to have the clock turned back and experience life with a lost innocence. Everything seems fresh and new, the sky looks bluer, and so forth. A lot of people experience this after a narrow escape from death or serious injury.
It is one thing to experience something. It is another to render it intelligible and then understand it for what it really was. |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 1357
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.161.72.72
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 11:47 am: |
|
Yes, of course I have. I have experienced it myself and know many others who have as well. The 'New Life' is a psychological phenomena which again, is not isolated to one religious or spiritual practice. It exists in every culture and goes by many names. Often born of some personal crisis or 'significant emotional event' a person will seem to have the clock turned back and experience life with a lost innocence. Everything seems fresh and new, the sky looks bluer, and so forth. A lot of people experience this after a narrow escape from death or serious injury.
i am curious TO,
i think you did a very good job of describing this psychological phenomenon as you put it.
the question that arises is why do you say that religion doesn't work when it is probably the primary medium in which people have this experience.
an experience by the way that everyone should desire not only to have but maintain as a way of life.
so what is it that you mean when you say that religion doesn't work?
is this an experience that should be avoided in your opinion? |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2245
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.28
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 12:21 pm: |
|
"when it is probably the primary medium in which people have this experience."
That's an assumption and again, I'd like to point out it is not isolated to religious pursuits. Religion, spirituality, or faith are not required to experience it, therefore the cause and purpose lie elsewhere.
"so what is it that you mean when you say that religion doesn't work?"
I mean it does not work. It does not put you in communion with one of the mythological gods of early civilizations. Prayer does not work. People do not get healed. There is no more transformative power in Christianity, Islam, or any of them, than there is in anything else. That is my point. It is a fraud.
"is this an experience that should be avoided in your opinion?"
You seem to want to continue to suggest some link between religion and this mental phenomena even though I have already demonstrated that there is none.
Understanding and exploring your inner life and seeking profound experiences are a natural pursuit of human beings. It is the correct understanding of what and why that makes the experience worthwhile. Misunderstanding it or misinterpreting it for something that it is not is dangerous and a waste of time. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 242
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 9:54 pm: |
|
trainedobserver,
You mention the experience of re-birth as being a 'psychological' phenomenon. This is most definitely NOT what I am talking about! I am talking about an experience which is far beyond the finite mind; I am talking about THE SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE - which cannot be experienced until one has been shown how to go beyond the finite mind.
The two types of experience (psychological and Spiritual) have NO connection whatsoever - they are, in fact, opposed to each other. It is the unenlightened (lower) mind, as I have said before, which I equate with satan. |
bluewater2
Senior Member
Username: bluewater2
Post Number: 2463
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.75.252.89
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 10:47 pm: |
|
All "spiritual" experiences ARE simply psychological in nature. Often times powerful psychological experiences can affect someone in such a way as to motivate them to make actual changes in behavior as well. All spiritual experiences are psychological in nature. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 244
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 12:37 am: |
|
bluewater2,
I have indeed experienced both kinds of experience (i.e. psychological/emotional and Spiritual) and can definitely tell you that they ARE NOT the same! The 'common' experiences are indeed psychological/emotional (mind) experiences, which EVERYONE experiences in various forms. But these are NOT what I am referring to. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 219
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.119.77
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 4:15 am: |
|
Shem,
What I am trying to figure out is what you are arriving at with the question: Why mourn over death?
It is a natural human emotion...a combinatin of psychological, emotional and spiritual as you and others stated. I do not know that we can say that our mourning is one of these factors over another. The combination depends on the person doing the mourning. Some people are more spiritual than others. Some will mourn for unhealthy periods of time due to psychological issues.
Do you acknowledge that mourning is a normal function that is programmed in our human nature?
Although we believe that we will see this person again in heaven, it still hurts that we will never see them again here on earth. Could it be that our mourning is somewhat selfish, too? Sure! However, it is who we are. |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 245
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 7:46 am: |
|
C_m,
Yes, for the uninitiated, unenlightened, 'first-born' (i.e. un-'reborn') person, it would be natural to mourn over death. But this is because of Spiritual ignorance. No truly Enlightened being would mourn over such a natural and inevitable event, especially as it is the beginning of a new life. |
yaakov2
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov2
Post Number: 588
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.192.99.67
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
|
Shem
So you don't mourn. Does this mean that you celebrate when a person close to you dies, since they are now with your god and starting a new life? |
bluewater2
Senior Member
Username: bluewater2
Post Number: 2465
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.42.171.14
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 2:31 pm: |
|
As Shem said, Yaakov, he has never had someone close to him die. I suspect that inspite of his confidence that he will not mourn, he will when reality hits. Right now, shem, you come across as nieve and idealistic. |
yaakov2
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov2
Post Number: 592
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.192.99.67
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 3:28 pm: |
|
Noted Bluewater.
OK Shem, assuming that someone close to you dies, do you expect that you will celebrate their death since they are going on to a life with your god? |
shem
Intermediate Member
Username: shem
Post Number: 252
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 203.111.236.45
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:31 pm: |
|
Bluewater2,
Where did you get your information that no-one close to me has died? I have even discussed previously the occurence of my mother's death, I cannot remember if it was on this site or elsewhere. Anyway, I will tell about my father's, mother's, and brother's deaths as you seem curious. Firstly, my father died in 1975 (aged 69), when I was 30 years old, and had been following my Master for 2 years. On his death-bed, the last thing he said to me, was a plead for me to give up following my Master. When he died, my feelings were of sorrow for him, as he had died in ignorance of the Truth. I shed no tears of grief, as I knew he would get another chance in another life.
Next, my mother died in 1994 (aged 86). She also died in hospital (like my father) after suffering a long illness. I visited her the day before she died, but she was not able to recognise me (alzheimer's). My sister phoned me to inform me that she had passed away, but I decided that I did not want to go to see her body - as there was no point, and I would rather remember her as she was in life. Again I felt sorry that she, too, died in ignorance of Truth.
My brother died in 1998 (aged 66). I was living overseas at the time (7,000 miles away), and decided that it would be of no benefit to anyone to return to the UK. I sent flowers as a sign of respect to his family, and once again felt sorry that he had died in ignorance.
I would like to tell you a story about a man who lived in a place called "the land of Nod" near a great river. On the other side of this river was a place called "Eden". One day by the river the man saw Jesus and Moses on the other side of the river. They were calling him to come and join them. There happened to be a boat nearby on the river moored to a tree. So the man excitedly jumped into the boat and started rowing with all his might. He rowed and rowed until the sweat started dripping from his whole body. But when he looked around he saw that he was not moving. Then he heard Jesus and Moses calling to him to cut the rope which was holding him from making any progress across the river.
Isn't this just like our lives on Earth? We have so many ties and burdons weighing us down and holding us back from our Spiritual Journey. Jesus refers to these problems several times in different parts of the NT - for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 805
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 12:49 pm: |
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shem, Concerning your father you said, “On his death-bed, the last thing he said to me, was a plead for me to give up following my Master” your response “my feelings were of sorrow for him, as he had died in ignorance of the Truth.” So even you father, on his death bed, thought you were following a false doctrine. You had no sense of loss, no mourning, no concerns, probably no comforting for your mother and siblings. The stress your father and others present must have felt from your callus attitude! I truly feel sorry for them.
Later, even though you had no feelings, you saw no need to comfort others when your mother died; you didn’t even bother to show up. Same with your brother a few years later.
Shem, I certainly don’t want you as a friend. I don’t even want you anywhere near me or my loved ones. No telling when you might decide to go over the deep end and decide to send everyone to their maker sooner than needed. Did you watch the special on the history channel about "The Peoples Temple"? A very loving, non-violent group ends up dead because their leader thought it would be best. |
yaakov2
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov2
Post Number: 595
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.192.99.67
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 1:47 pm: |
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Ba2
I agree. Shem's treatment of his family certainly sounds very callous. His self-centeredness doesn't reflect well on him. One of G-d’s commandments is to honor our parents. Ignoring the funeral and his family doesn’t fulfill that commandment. He should’ve mourned and/or extended comfort to others that were grieving. |
chesed
Intermediate Member
Username: chesed
Post Number: 229
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.75.252.89
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:46 am: |
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Ba2, that's exactly what I was thinking as I read Shem's post.
Wow. As the old rabbi said in The Fiddler on the Roof when asked if there is a blessing for the czar...and I paraphrase...May G-d bless him and
keep him far away from us! |
yaakov2
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov2
Post Number: 599
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.192.99.67
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:39 am: |
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Chesed, that czar story reminded me of another bit of Jewish folklore.
Once in the old country, a drunkard died. As is traditional, the townspeople gathered for the funeral. However, after the ritual prayers were recited, no one could think of anything positive to say about the deceased. The silence stretched out. Finally, rather shamefully, his casket was lowered into the ground. “Wait” shouts an old man. “This isn’t right. I personally knew his father. And his father was ten times a drunkard than him.” A contented sigh passed through the crowd, “Ah, he was a pious man.” |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 737
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 9:35 pm: |
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I just lost a very dear friend of mine to cancer. I can not help but mourn him. |
yaqakallah
Member
Username: yaqakallah
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 68.110.28.40
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 1:32 am: |
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So sorry to hear that Bear. losing a loved one is a deeply personal emotion. Mourn him and remember God's love for us all and then when you are able, celebrate his life with joy and smiles(yes, they will be mixed with tears). This is what he would want. Same as I when my life is over. I want to remembered for trying to be a good disciple and friend and for my friends to laugh at my silliness and unique persona. I want tell you to grieve. I still tear up when I think of friends who have been dead many years. But in the end, I wind up smiling or just laughing out loud at some of their humorous traits. It makes me feel still connected in some way. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1773
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 11:40 am: |
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shem first post "If Christians really believe that physical death, for a practising and true Christian, is the start of a new Life with God, then why do they mourn? Surely, if this was a genuine belief, physical death should be a time of rejoicing?
This came to mind when I read of everyone's concern over JOHNNY "CALLED". If God wishes for Johnny to join him now, why do Christians wish to pray otherwise?"
}I found this question interesting, it is the reason we pray for people is for healing and also for them to have strength til God takes them home. A minister that advocates anything else would be breaking the law. People need to pray and encourage people to fight the good fight of faith and life. Life is important.
Christians are also sad when someone dies because of the loss of someone dear, but the joy they feel knowing that they will one day see them again is much grand. God desires Christians to pray and pray and seek Him. Chrisians give there life to God and live there life to the fullest. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1774
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 11:43 am: |
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shem first post "If Christians really believe that physical death, for a practising and true Christian, is the start of a new Life with God, then why do they mourn? Surely, if this was a genuine belief, physical death should be a time of rejoicing?
This came to mind when I read of everyone's concern over JOHNNY "CALLED". If God wishes for Johnny to join him now, why do Christians wish to pray otherwise?"
}I found this question interesting, it is the reason we pray for people is for healing and also for them to have strength til God takes them home. A minister that advocates anything else would be breaking the law. People need to pray and encourage people to fight the good fight of faith and life. Life is important.
Christians are also sad when someone dies because of the loss of someone dear, but the joy they feel knowing that they will one day see them again is much grand. God desires Christians to pray and pray and seek Him. Chrisians give there life to God and live there life to the fullest. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 4032
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.116.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 12:44 pm: |
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THE BIBLE teaches it is alright to mourn over a loved one. my wife has been dead in the grave for 10 years now and i still miss and grieve for her. THE BIBLE says that abraham came to mourn his wife. christians are still human and any one who says that death ends it all doesnt know THE GOD i serve. my GOD SAID I AM COME THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LIFE ABUNDUNTLY . yes there is a time when we christians will "die " as far as the world is concerned. but we are really asleep in JESUS. the minite we close our eyes in death of the world the next we are in heaven with THE LORD and that is worth it all. my wifes body is in the grave but she herself is with THE LORD |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 4033
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.116.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 12:54 pm: |
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THE BIBLE teaches it is alright to mourn over a loved one. my wife has been dead in the grave for 10 years now and i still miss and grieve for her. THE BIBLE says that abraham came to mourn his wife. christians are still human and any one who says that death ends it all doesnt know THE GOD i serve. my GOD SAID I AM COME THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LIFE ABUNDUNTLY . yes there is a time when we christians will "die " as far as the world is concerned. but we are really asleep in JESUS. the minite we close our eyes in death of the world the next we are in heaven with THE LORD and that is worth it all. my wifes body is in the grave but she herself is with THE LORD |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1775
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 7:07 pm: |
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Arron, morning is a big part of healing. I think whether it be death or other events in one life one goes through grieving process. Grieving is part of the way to heal. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 4036
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.116.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:00 am: |
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yes thank you turtle may GOD bless you |