| Author | Message | ||
     missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1606 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
What lessons can be learned from such men as Jim Jones, David Berg, Hobart Freeman and David Koresh? These names are all associated with extremist religious movements. The main lesson to remember is this: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Copyright 2000 Watchman Fellowship, Inc.. All these men had started their ministries in normal churches. Jim Jones was a Methodist pastor before starting the People's Temple. David Berg had been a Christian Missionary Alliance minister before founding the Children of God. Hobart Freeman was a highly respected Bible scholar and Seminary professor before he started the Faith Assembly movement. David Koresh was raised in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. An enticing characteristic of these men was their burning zeal and commitment to what they proclaimed. Both Jones and Berg left their denominations and took their gospel of social revolution to the youth culture of California. They offered the promise of religious, social and economic Utopia. Freeman left his denomination to practice Bible truths he believed were being ignored by mainline churches. He believed the gifts of the Spirit such as healing and tongues should be restored to the Church and practices such as observance of Easter and Christmas should be rejected as pagan. David Koresh was caught up in an apocalyptic expectation that became an all consuming passion. The reasons people give for following these men are as unique as the followers themselves. Each individual has their own view of life and is desirous of contributing and belonging to something greater than self. Most people live by a routine calendar of events. They wish for more control over their circumstances, for more power to make the world a better place. Suddenly, into their lives comes a man (or woman) whose soul is on fire. His anger expresses their anger. His passion moves them to believe there is a possibility of change. His rhetoric is compelling. His call is entertained. He is worth listening to. He seems compassionate. He is articulate. Signs of Warning There are a number of warning signs in these claims which should be heeded. People are conditioned to believe an expert. Religious zealots can expound on the Bible for hours at a time. Both Jim Jones and David Koresh taught studies lasting from eight to fifteen hours. David Berg also held lengthy studies with his Children of God followers. All of these men claim to be specifically chosen by God for an end-time ministry. To join them was to be a part of God's great plan for the world in the last days. God, Himself, was calling them to His one true church. There is usually an attack on the person of Jesus Christ. The leader must find ways to diminish the Bible's declarations of Christ's deity and all sufficient redemption. Remember, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" as Paul wrote to Timothy. Jim Jones renounced Christianity for a Marxist gospel of social utopianism, ruling by fear and brutality. Berg and Freeman claimed to be prophets of God fulfilling Bible prophecy. Koresh claimed to be the Lamb. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1607 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
These leaders also majored on the minor. Berg and Koresh both emphasized the Old Testament prophecies and the Book of Revelation's cataclysmic predictions for the future. Berg, Freeman, and Koresh all claimed to lead God's exclusive church. Berg and Koresh majored on the end-time prophecy to the exclusion of cardinal doctrines (e.g. bodily resurrection of Christ and salvation by faith). Freeman majored on the minor doctrine of divine healing by telling followers that through faith they could overcome death. These leaders also taught that to leave the group was to receive a sentence of death. Berg and Koresh held that to leave the groups was tantamount to losing ones salvation. Freeman taught that those who left Faith Assembly were excluded from the Rapture. Jones told his followers if they left him they would be murdered. Before joining any group, a wise person will look past the leader's personal charisma. They will examine the doctrines and practices in light of New Testament teaching. Often a leader will start out on an orthodox footing and drift into error over a period of time. Be ever vigilant! Never abdicate your right to think your own thoughts. Never allow yourself to be isolated from outside contact with family, friends and other believers, not of your own fellowship. The Bible is not subject to private interpretation. Learn the rules of proper interpretation. Be cautious in following anyone who claims to be a special messenger from God. Avoid New Truth, never before known to the church. Jim Jones forced 913 men, women, and children to either drink poison or be shot. Hobart Freeman and eighty nine followers died because they refused medical treatment. David Berg led his followers into exile and unspeakable perversion. David Koresh holds the lives of over one hundred followers in his hands. Some are prepared to die for him - they have already killed for him. These tragedies are a challenge to the Christian community to proclaim the truth in a manner that is relevant. The hearts of men are still echoing Pontius Pilate's cry, "What is truth?" Watchman Fellowship Inc copyright | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1608 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
Truth Hunter wrote Oh yes they do promote illegal behavior. The way they home school is illegal at least it was when I was there, child labor that they excuse by saying its voluntary. The way they home-birth is illegal. Why else would you spend months filling out questionnaires assuring them that you take full responsibility for the birth? Its just to save their legal A**. Twisting things in your head to make you think that their midwives are not the ones delivering your baby. Do know how many baby's have died because the midwives goofed up? I know of two baby's in Homestead that are retarded because the midwives that you are led to believe have the knowledge and gifts from the Lord that make Homestead the safest place to have a baby, didn't know what they were doing, and since they taught not to go to the hospital, these babies died, or are retarded. And since these people never go to a doctor while they're pregnant, when the birth fails, no one knows. This my friend is criminal! | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1610 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
It is ok for hh to scare a little old lady into thinking it would be against "God's divine plan for her to go on a mission trip"...after their first answer from "god" was go... I cannot believe in men that do not even know the voice of God...you don't have to be very smart to see theough their way of doing things...pressure people into what ever they claim the will of God to be... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1612 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
I am sorry I ever went to HH...sorry for the bad effect it had on our church and on our family...but I did learn for myself what other people told me about them was true...I really did not want those things to be truth... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1613 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
I am just very sad that so many good people are blind following blind leaders... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1614 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
The covenant to become a member of HH is a death covenant. No other expression fits. They expect you to forsake your spouse, your kids, your family, your friends, your life and your conscious to serve them and their directives. HH uses the covenant a member signs as a means of control. They compare it to a marriage covenant because in biblical terms and conditions marriage is forever. But the bible speaks of this covenant in relation to a husband and wife relationship and NOT about joining a church. But HH uses it because it is an opportune way to bond you to them and their group. Once you sign it, they have their hooks in you and you are then warned that you cannot leave without dire consequences. If 50 people leave and one of them has a terrible event shortly afterward, that particular event is broadcast to the remaining members to show what happens when you leave. They hide the fact that the other 49 are very happy and doing well in other churches. It is evil to treat people this way. It is evil to use this as a controlling tactic. If they really had the Holy Spirit guiding them they would not need this ‘contract’ to hold and control people. Virtually every church in the world operates without this tactic but a controlling group that desires to manipulate people must have some unorthodox way of having power over the members. Some members might leave but HH has found ways to tie people to them so leaving is extremely difficult. And they castigate those that leave by making all remaining members ignore and stay away from the ones that leave. Seeking Glory wrote: Bottom line........... You must relinquish the ownership of your immortal soul to become a part of them. They own you. But then, after reading all these threads surely everyone has come to this conclusion. A sick bunch of leaders with a wicked way of treating people. This is so sad... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 799 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Again, we see the sick blasphemy of the oppositionals is at work. This woman is truly sick with her vile 'death covenant' lie. Reading, I was ready to discuss issues like homeschooling and home birth (amazingly, attempted to be attacked above) .. however there is no point. We are dealing with a very, very sick woman, spamming the forum, who, with a couple of others, can not even restrain herself from the vicious 'death covenant' lie. This is a very deep and ugly spiritual sickness. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 |
Prax, I have found you a new name. It is ‘cult-hugger’. You have so many names on so many boards I thought you needed another one. You claim to be Jesus by determining which prayers make it to heaven and which ones don’t. Then you claim to be King of this board by thinking you set the standards by which all others must comply. You are so full of yourself you must be busting at the seams....LOL...ROF.. Well, cult-hugger, you should advertise your services. Anybody have a cult they want defended. We have a ‘cult-hugger’ at your services. He used to go by Prax or King or Jesus but now he is ‘cult-hugger’. He will defend your cult with all he has and call anyone in disagreement liars and all kinds of evil names. He can spew forth many despicable words to defend your cult so give him a call. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 801 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Rarely have I seen as dumb a post as this one from 'Seekingglory". However, since he is one of the 'death covenant' blasphemers/supporters, nothing he says will surprise. Anything to divert from dealing with that sickness. In fairness, I do know the 911 term 'planehuggers'. Which is a whole nother edgy field, last I know Yeoman is up on that one a bit. And of course there is the olde term tree-huggers. For those who are interested, almost all my current posting is either here or Bible apologetic topics. Those are fascinating and edifying. Tonight I was studying the history of the inerrancy views, including the inspiration and preservation of the Scriptures. Especially during the Reformation and then the 'evangelical' switchover to a lower view in the late 19th century. And I hope to see if that is discussed at all in an HH book about the Bible. It is a little-known history, often written about from the far side, by authors not really seeing the fundamental issues clearly. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on January 01, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1621 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.167 |
Truth Hunter wrote Oh yes they do promote illegal behavior. The way they home school is illegal at least it was when I was there, child labor that they excuse by saying its voluntary. The way they home-birth is illegal. Why else would you spend months filling out questionnaires assuring them that you take full responsibility for the birth? Its just to save their legal A**. Twisting things in your head to make you think that their midwives are not the ones delivering your baby. Do know how many baby's have died because the midwives goofed up? I know of two baby's in Homestead that are retarded because the midwives that you are led to believe have the knowledge and gifts from the Lord that make Homestead the safest place to have a baby, didn't know what they were doing, and since they taught not to go to the hospital, these babies died, or are retarded. And since these people never go to a doctor while they're pregnant, when the birth fails, no one knows. This my friend is criminal! Well my attention has been called not by factnet but by a friend that this post has a bad word in it...sorry...I am just asking about their homeschooling.... No offence intended in any way... I just see they like the marriage part I mentioned many "moons" ago...stretch...legal means...In Brazil if people are not legally married we call it shacking up...but of course you have other laws in your country... We do not even baptize people that are not legally married...So that is the only point I am making... Do their kids pass if tested by a public school? I do not know... I have met some people that used HS not really because they believed in HS but because they were too lazy to take their kids to school or others for other reasons... I am not against HS...but I am against shutting kids up in a village and if they have to face the real world they cannot...we saw that in Brazil... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 824 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
ML, you are getting pathetic now. "I have met some people that used HS not really because they believed in HS but because they were too lazy to take their kids to school" You really don't have a clue do you? Home schooling is one of the hardest, most challenging tasks that a parent could ever take on. The lazy way out is to take a child to a brick building and dump him there for a day. I know from experience that the parents at HH take their children's education very seriously. And for you to try and make their hard efforts and sacrifices look bad, well, that is just plain evil. I don't know anything about folks having a hard time out in the "World" after having grown up Home Schooled. I was taught at home, and at the ripe old age of 18 struck out on my own. Sure my new buddies laughed at me because I was a virgin, and sure I felt odd when I didn't get a joke about The Dukes of Hazard. Sure I was uncomfortable at parties because I didn't want to get drunk or do drugs. Sure I got ribbed because I didn't know how to cuss like the cool guys did. The funny thing was, whenever someone at the office had a geography question, they called me. Whenever someone needed a hand writing a paper, they called me. Whenever a buddy needed a sober driver, he would call me. Whenever a question about religion came up at work, I would get called. I am very grateful for the education my folks gave me, and to see people like you talk down their haughty noses at them is revolting. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1622 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.167 |
I only said I have met some people...lol...you sure are touchy... My son was a virgin when he married at 28...and he went to public school. I did not say people at hh did not take their children's education lightly I said, "I have met some people that used HS not really because they believed in HS but because they were too lazy to take their kids to school" I think you need to re read my post...You are such an angry person... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 825 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
"...but I am against shutting kids up in a village and if they have to face the real world they cannot...we saw that in Brazil..." Here you are saying that you SAW that Home Schooled kids from HH can't make it in the 'real world'. I personally know your statement to be untrue. No, I am not an angry person. I do find your haughtiness and arrogance here on FN to be nauseating though. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1625 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.167 |
They did not do well in Brazil...the real world was quite a shock...I would say Walmart would be a shock to most as many parents told me that they did not take their kids to Walmart... Daniel you are angry because you know I tell the truth and you wish it was different...I too wish HH was not like it is... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1626 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.167 |
My grown son Michael talked to a boy around his age and the boy told him he has never been out of hh and never had been to Walmart...that sounds weird.... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 827 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
I love the folks at HH just like they are, and I hate it when you put your vile words in my mouth. Growing up, my siblings and I went to the Grocery store about once a week with Mom. We were NOT different than any other family at HH. Yes, when we were in the checkout line, Mom would try to steer us kids away from the Tabloid stand. What a terrible crime, trying to keep your kids from gawking at the celebrity of the day in a g-string. If all you can do is try to rip at HH by accusing them to not liking to take children to Wal*Mart, (Have you ever even been to a Wal*Mart in the summer time? People wear more to bed than they do to shop there!) then you are delusional. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1627 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.167 |
I live in a costal hot tropical city...and no I am not delusional...I am a missionary. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 828 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
Something was lost in translation with your son. There is not a single adult at HH that has never been to the local Grocer. It is when you say outlandish nonsense like this that you lose the meager bit of credibility you once had. Remember, you visited for a few months, I spent 10 years there. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1628 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
more than a few months son... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1629 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
I heard them joke that..........had never heard the story of Alice in Wonderland... My son up till this day declares a grown boy told him that...My son had no reason to lie... (Message edited by Missionary_lady on January 02, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1630 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
Just tell me why certain people did things and said to me, do not mention this to so and so? Why all the secrets...why the double life??? Why can't you just live what you preach and preach what you live? | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 829 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
The point is, I spent the ten most formative years of my life at HH. I lived their life, participated in the Craft Fairs, worked on the Land, I was as much a part of HH as a young person could be. I sang in the Choir, helped with various construction projects, helped stock the shelves at the Deli, worked at the mill and helped refurbish and raise several barns. I know what I am talking about when I tell you that your accusations are false. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1631 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
You are wrong Daniel...the bunch stayed in our homes our churches and we saw how they reacted to the outside world...and especially to church leadship... No thank you we want none of it... I think it is wonderful you are dealing with the outside world...your posts show that you are a torn angry person...I really feel sorry for you. It must be hard to defend what you cannot live... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 830 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
"Why can't you just live what you preach and preach what you live?" Maybe I should ask you that. I have yet to see you treat HH in an even decent manner. Surely you don't preach to your people that you should call people names who don't agree with you! Surely you don't preach to your people that when someone says something you don't like, you should tell them to "Shut up" like you told me? Surely you don't preach to your people that it is fine and dandy to mock, belittle and make fun of those you think are lost! | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1632 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
You are a very confused, and very angry person... You are so mixed -up... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 831 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
Well, think what you like. It is of no consequence to me. Those who actually know me would say something quite different, but you claim to know everything there is to know about me, so I will just play along with that. Do you have any idea when this little cold I have will clear up? | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1633 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
I don't preach not to eat chocolate and run buy it and hide it...I don't preach not to read a magazine and hide it, I don't preach not to go certain places and go there and tell the person with me, don't tell... Do you want me to go on??????????? There are thousands of people I do not agree with and do not call them names...I worked with a catholic doctor in a village giving out medicine and did not call him any names... Daniel I am against the lies, the error that is in the core of HH. I am against them destroying other people just because they do not agree with them... You sound so much like a little frustrated child...Daniel get ahold of yourself...Pray, seek the Lord...you are so confused...Grow up... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1634 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
I have never claimed to know you... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 832 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
According to you, I am; Confused A frustrated little child Immature Angry Mixed up, and torn. And that is all just today. Obviously, you must think you know me. (Message edited by dowen on January 02, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1635 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.249 |
I just said that because that is what you sound like...I do know people that knows you and they did mention a few of those things... | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 |
Daniel you are a poster child for part of our cause. You said, “The point is, I spent the ten most formative years of my life at HH. I lived their life, participated in the Craft Fairs, worked on the Land; I was as much a part of HH as a young person could be. I sang in the Choir, helped with various construction projects, helped stock the shelves at the Deli, worked at the mill and helped refurbish and raise several barns.” You are not a member by choice because you do not agree with all their doctrine. The original purpose of this discussion board was to tell people that what they see from a distance is not all they will get and to be careful and study them before joining. Most folks will not get the opportunity you had to see it all before deciding not to join. You saw it all and said ‘no thanks’. I think if most get to really see it all before joining they too would say ‘no thanks’. But they don’t get that privilege. And they join and then get hurt. And you see some of them here posting BEWARE! | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 804 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Thank you, Daniel. Some of these attempts at accusations are so silly. If HH has children who grow up not knowing 'Alice-in-Wonderland'. Halleluyah! Thank you Jesus. (Maybe they will avoid the Jefferson Airplane song too.) Mrs. Alvear has an unrestrained tongue. You tried to correct her on even rather small points like going to the store, and she can't receive it. And on larger issues, like how wonderful and difficult the homeschooling is, and she cannot retract her errors. Anybody who has had any contact with HH would be reeling in amazement and possibly doubled over in laughter .. "well, I'm gonna join HH, not because I really care about God or the brethren or anything, it is just a convenient way to do a lazy homeschooling". Anybody who would speak like that is simply clueless. And that is putting it mildly. However we know that Mrs. Alvear will lie and blaspheme in far darker ways. So in a sense a conversation like this might actually be good for her. Thanks for the effort, Daniel. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 807 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
S_G, "for part of our cause." A number of years I have not been actively involved in HH. (Visits, friends, communication, yes.) Had seen lots of folks who left, or never really got involved. Some doing well, some struggling. Some victories, some sadnesses. Some alive and well and discussing when to visit and desiring to be touched and to learn and share, others convicted of their lives and unsure, and a few have departed. Not once did I ever think that folks would try to make a 'cause' of despising the Christian community, and trying to 'sink' it with talebearing, government oppression, rah-rah to blasphemies. What a sad and terrible place to be. Now I could see a 'cause' of going deep in prayer and fasting, seeking communities and fellowships that have the oil of the Holy Spirit, asking God for full direction, studying the Bible as a Berean, asking God where are His people, seeking to understand the HH doctrines in depth and understand and compare, and much, much more. All those are honourable causes. All those could be done with friendship and care, with communication and love, the love that cowboy mentioned. Choose you this day .. Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 412 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.192 |
Now I could see a 'cause' of going deep in prayer and fasting, seeking communities and fellowships that have the oil of the Holy Spirit, asking God for full direction, studying the Bible as a Berean, asking God where are His people, seeking to understand the HH doctrines in depth and understand and compare, and much, much more. This is exactly what my husband and I did before we left HH. We prayed and fasted seeking God and had friends outside HH praying and fasting too. We became like Bereans and studied His word, then compared it to the depths of HH doctrines. I literally sat there with a HH book on my right and a Bible on my left and looked up the scripture reference given by the authors. They were so taken out of context, so pieced together to fit the ideas, so twisted... It brought me to repentance. Lord forgive me for it haven taken seven years to do that. Lord forgive me that it took a near crisis in my life to bring me to the point of having to know the truth. Lord forgive me that I ignored the warnings and red flags you provided. Forgive me that my group and friends meant more to me than You did. Lord forgive me that I feared man more than you. Lord for give me for letting HH become my God and my conscience. I suggest that each member in HH do as Prax has advised, and that you become and continue to be Bereans, fast, pray, and seek God, (not communities first; for if you seek him He will show you where He wants you.) He will even put you where He wants you Himself if you ask. You must be willing to go where He sends you, even if it is to be a light in the mist of the lost, instead of the false security and unity of men who live by rules of other men. He can show you a community joined and in unity by the Holy Spirit. Ask Him to help you see HIS church, not an organization by men, but one formed by the New Covenant written on the hearts of believers, that is scattered throughout the earth. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 833 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
To all the HH attackers who have been whipped into a state of frenzy by the gangsters at Watchman Fellowship, Someone gave me this article, and I thought all of you might enjoy it. http://i.abcnews.com/Technology/story?id=98195&page=1 (Message edited by dowen on January 03, 2007) | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 413 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.192 |
"Memory is not like a tape recorder," says Jacquie Pickrell, a doctoral candidate in psychology at the University of Washington, who has come up with evidence that it may be possible for outsiders to "implant" memories of phony events in our brains. Like when JA testified in a Friday night meeting about how Jesus had saved him and changed him before his days at HH, and DB JUMPED up and screamed, "You didn't even know Jesus until you came here."??? Then DB told him to take his testimony back and JA, looking totally confused, did just that. Or Like the whole AZ group, at the direction of leaders, forgetting that they were apart of, and under the authority and ministry of the very same HH in Waco when the news reporter came around after KB killed her children and asked it they were affiliated with any other church? Or Like answering the visitors' question, "Is the group lead by one man?" enough with the answer that HH is led by a “plurality of elders,” when in reality each of those elders is in subjection to the one Apostle, BA who is THE leader, that you begin to believe it isn’t an out right lie. Or Like signing papers that you agree, in the case of emergency, to tell authorities that you had NO prenatal care if your home birth goes bad. Or, Like telling CS to put away the power mower and get out the hand mower before the visitors start arriving. They see a hand mower, so they believe… Or Like baking the bread in an oven at the commercial kitchen, then at the fair demonstration baking it in a wood fired stove… Or like sisters staying up late at night working on “children’s writings;” (sisters, who aren’t even the mothers of child who wrote it.) Then people thinking that the children of HH are these exceptionally gifted writers, and HH giving the appearance of highly educated children, and HH selling a book on teaching children how to write. Should I go on? You give Watchman too much credit. They don’t have the power to form the thoughts as well as HH does. Read “Garden of God.” There you will see how, those who dictate the culture form the beliefs. I knew HH was a cult they day I read their “Constitution.” That was before I ever had anything to do with Watchman Fellowship. In the study, deception was used to influence the mind. This is HH to a T. You see a sweet agricultural community. Hidden are its doctrines and practices of submission to HH authority as if it is Jesus in the flesh until you ready to accept it. HH has lots of web sites showing one side of HH, none sharing their "God" given message for the true church. (Message edited by ForeverHis on January 03, 2007) | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 810 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, A little while back I studied those very teachings that seem to be at the core of concern here .. 'Jesus come in the flesh .. ' . In a Berean manner, (and using net resources, too) and looking at the Bible and HH views. Especially looked closely at the understanding of the verses in 1 John and 2 John. And while I would agree that some folks might have a different interpretation, (there are a variety of conflicting ideas in the standard commentaries and papers available that often miss the depth and context and grammar of the verses) everything I read was sound. YMMV  Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 834 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Good grief Robin. I am just about done with this message board, but I must correct a few things Robin said above. Her first "memory" is wildly off base. I was at that meeting, a young kid yes, but still there, and I do remember something a bit different than what she screams here. The interesting thing is, the situation she described hasn't crossed my mind since the night it happened. I do know that I was there, and no one "screamed" at anyone. Robin's "memory" #2, There were YEARS separating KB's time at the AZ fellowship, and the time of the atrocity she committed. To link those two is ludicrous. Robin's "memory" #3, HH does NOT have one single leader or Elder. There is quite a few of them. She may not want to believe this, but it is the Truth. Robin's "memory" #4, I cannot comment on this, I never had a child at HH. I do know that one of my little sisters just had a beautiful baby girl at home a few weeks ago, and the care that was given to her before, during, and after the birth, was exceptional. Robin's "memory" #5, That is just dumb. Maybe someone was joking. I mowed acres of grass with power equipment, both on HH property and off. And, gasp, visitors saw me doing it.... Robin's "Memory" #6, I find this hilarious. To try and turn the cooking of bread against them is just idiotic. To cook the amount of bread needed to stock their Fair, in a wood heated oven, would take an oven the size of the one Shadrac and his friends visited. Robin's "memory" #7, Now this is an issue I take seriously. Robin is playing the fraud card here. I wrote numerous writings, and submitted them to be displayed at the Fairs. Many of them came back, but quite a few were accepted. Yes, when some of them came back, they had the mark of a editors red pen upon them. (I can only imagine what some of my post's here would look like if they underwent the same process...) Those were the ones where I learned about proper tenses, punctuation, etc. Those were the ones where I was told that if I wanted them in the Fair, I must fix in my own words what I had messed up. Never once did one of my writing's get tampered with by another's hand. The only one changing things was me. If I changed something, and it was still wrong grammar wise, it came back to me. Yes, many sisters spent hours editing writings, and for that I am thankful. They didn't have to do it, but they did because they loved us kids. Robin trying to make their sacrifices look evil is simply revolting. Robin know's better, but she is so caught up in her vendetta that she is blinded by it. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 415 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
#1 He jumped out of his chair, leaned across the front row and got right up into his face and raised his voice at a level and harshness I would call screaming. He made JA take his testimony back. I was so shocked and my conscience screamed to defend this man and the truth, but my fear kept me quiet. It BURNED the memory in my mind and God tried to use it for years to wake me up. #2 Excerpts from KB’s diary and her family showed that she was back in HH. #3 Is it not true that everyone of the elders/ group leaders are in submission to BA as an Apostle? #4 No one was joking. CS did as he was told and put away the power mower and got out the other. I and some others knew about it the day that it happened. #6 Why even cook bread in the wood fired stove? It does NOT demonstrate how the people in HH cook their bread. It is part of the whole "simple life" picture that HH puts on as a tourist attraction. What percentages of families cook their daily bread in a wood fired oven? When I was there it was less than 1 percent. Nothing wrong with a tourist show... but they don't give the impression that it is just a show. People are unaware that it is just part of the fair enchantment. #7 And couldn't any child’s writing be just as good if they went through the NUMEROUS reviews by these specially picked editors? The writing goes through one level of review, is marked up until it passes that level, then goes through another level... There was more than grammatical editing... there was content and composition too. Point is, it was not the book BA wrote nor the education they received that made them stand above students outside of the fellowship... it was these editors. While visitors ooh and awe, thinking these children are magnificent writers, (and a few of the many probably are,) much of it though is coming from many man hours of Sisters laying down their life, filling their "place" late into the night. Yes they are good, even great, to help. There is no evil in what they are doing. But the process and the results ARE deceiving none the less. My point in that post was that HH had their own little slips of the hand. I wasn't declaring some great evil. I was showing how your post and article can be applied to HH too. What you see is not always what it appears to be and sometimes people do choose what they see, some times it is chosen by others what they will see and it can make a difference on what is perceived or remembered. It is that simple. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1642 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.119.112 |
deceit...so sad...and so much of it...that is what happens when we try to say we have the "perfect pattern"... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 820 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Please note: These remembrances and explanations are from the very same duo, the elder and her junior, involved in trying to foist and shill for the sick 'death covenant' stuff on this forum. Their view and representation of events at HH will be sooo untainted and reliable and fair and honest ... (not). Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1643 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.2.14 |
Prax we await your return to HH... | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 417 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.126 |
If you don't like the message, kill the messenger. #1 Prax, Can someone, (who is not an apostle himself,) know Jesus without being under the authority in men as "Jesus in the flesh?" #3 Prax, What would your answer be if a visitor asked you, "Is there a hierarchy with one man at the top?" (Message edited by ForeverHis on January 04, 2007) | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
I know a few dozen people in HH, and I can honestly say they're ALL good, godly people. However, I think on a number of fronts, they're deceived. I do, though, consider them to be my brothers and sisters in Christ, even though I disagree on a number of subects. Formost amongst my disagreements in the insistance that HH is not led by one man, namely, BA. They are all very insistent that they're led by a plurarlity of elders but when you look at their literature it is by-and-large written exclusively by BA. I know HW and some others have helped, but it's primarily BA. It also seems that HH interprets scripture through the lens of BA's writings, for better or worse. It's interesting how their booklet titled "What We Believe" has BA and his wife's photo on the inside cover. Why not simply have a picture of the elders in there on the inside cover? It's also interesting how in the photo on back of the entire community, BA is standing right in the center of everyone. I don't think it's untrue that BA penned the majority, if not all, of that booklet. So, my question to HH is: Why not just admit you have a leader? As much as I love HH folks, it irks me to know that they all seem to be in such denial to that fact. There are also plenty of other things I don't agree with (e.g. Oneness theology, etc.), but it's not enough for me to lump them in with the Jehova's Witnesses. I love HH members. But some things should change. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1689 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.57.69.188 |
I too love the many of the people at HH...but that does not change the fact that HH is set up like a cult instead of the church of the Lord Jesus. BA runs HH...not his little group of yes sir men that as soon as he writes new revelations they are at the center getting them typed and hurring the proof copies to be read by members... Cross him and see what happens.... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 852 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Trilogy, greetings. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Honestly, I do not see great substance in your concerns above. However, I am glad that you see the HH folks as brothers and sisters in Christ. And I understand that you may differences in some doctrinal realms, yet even there you make an important qualitative distinction. (You may not agree with the oneness view, yet you understand that it has a huge distinction from JW situations .. the Lord Jesus Christ is the center of oneness worship and doctrine.) So what you shared is pleasant, even if I find it difficult to split some hairs about this brother writing 30% and that brother 25% and why was this picture there. There are some interesting questions that you are discussing so I don't mean to sound belittling. eg. what is the view of the various hierarchal and functional authorities within the five-fold ministry. And how does this work on a day-by-day level. Let me just say that I do not have a problem with the emphasis on the eldership ministry. In daily activity that is in fact the reality. If HH had a picture of many of the elders instead (on the book you mention) you might turn around and say that this is not accurate, they should have a picture of the family who helped initiate HH. (You can't lose for winning.) Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1690 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.57.69.188 |
boy, prax believes everything he is told...lol | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 443 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.196 |
They are all very insistent that they're led by a plurality of elders.... It is the answer they are allowed to give you. The answers are taught to them. If a visitors asks this; answer with this... If you don't know the right answer... get HW, GL or so and so. Even some elders will say, "I will get back to you on that," so they can get an acceptable answer from "above." They can't just answer what they know. Every one of those in the "plurality of elders" is under the authority of BA. BA is not under them even as a group of elders. My pastor substituted for or small class, (Sunday school,) teacher this week and he taught on the importance of church authority. It was nothing like HH. It is an authority that does not override the conscience or our personal relationship with God. He said we will answer to God to know that everything we believe comes straight from the Word and it is our responsibility to study and show ourselves approved so that no man including himself can deceive us. He also said that the elders are responsible to be brothers to him and "check" him when needed, and they do. (He just said they had better come with the Word and not some tradition to do it.) Then he adamantly said he believes absolute power corrupts absolutely. I am not writing this to say this is inerrant, but just to say I never heard any of this in HH. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 444 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.196 |
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 9:53 pm: ________________________________________ truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 So many who support Homestead Heritage and deny the claims made by dozens of Ex-members (many whom were a part of HH for 15-20+ years), that Blair Adams is the sole leader and in so many ways the messianic figure of HH. Advocates of HH claim they follow a pattern of the five-fold ministry. They say we/they have a plurality of elders, it is not a one-man show. Even though I know this is what the members wished they believed, it’s not what Blair Adams believes about himself nor teaches as I will show in as quickly as possible using some reference’s from his book , “The Order of Perfection”. He is talking about the “Five fold ministry” and it’s necessity in perfecting of the “Bride of Christ” while here on earth. He has been talking about how a fully functional five fold ministry is “Perfect” even as Christ was perfect. Adams makes very clear that he in his function as apostle, is the Head of this ministry and is not accountable to anyone save God himself. Here he says it in his own words, “ To briefly reiterate, apostle means , as shown, one who is “sent forth”. The apostle of Jesus Christ is one who is sent forth directly by the Spirit of Jesus and is directly responsible to the Spirit. No intermediate ministry stands between him and the Head. He is the first ( 1 Cor. 12:28) in God’s unfolding chain of revelation to the church. His is the initiating ministry. His primary duty is to preach the revelation of God by which the Body structures and builds itself, to bring the living word – not that he has “built upon” but that he has founded, initiated – to God’s people as a whole ( 2 Tim. 4:2; Rom. 10:14; 1 Cor. 1:17; 9:16; Mark 3:14 ) As the initiating ministry within the Body, the apostle is the chief means whereby the Spirit directly initiates building activity within the Body of Christ. Everything , the Bible tells us, must be done in decency and in order (1 Cor. 14:40, KJV ), and the order through which the Spirit initiates new revelation, sows the founding seed of his overall pattern for the churches, is through the apostolic ministry.” One thing that is so freaky to me about what he wrote here is that he is writing about his own place of authority, he is making his own rules and sees himself as justified because of his apostolic position. In many meetings I have heard He and the other top elders refer to him as a patriarchal leader such as Moses. As I have said in other posts he believes that a new priesthood is being revealed in the true church, right there in Homestead through his family. Now if that doesn't make you shake in your shoes it should. Why on earth does he think Jesus came and died? The old ways are gone, we are no longer slaves held under the law by prophets and apostles have you, but Paul said the fullness of time had come, God sent his son Jesus born under the law to redeem those under the law that we might receive the adoption as sons, and in doing so we ALL have a direct connection to God our father ( Gal. 4:1-7 ). There is not one ex-member who can honestly say that Blair taught that whole scripture, but stopped after verse 2 that says, "but is kept under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the Father." http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=232518#POST232518 (Message edited by ForeverHis on January 09, 2007) | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 446 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.196 |
Emphases mine: Garden of God Pg 30 So the culture molds and shapes the community–the corporate image of man… This is because the way men earn their living, the way the engage in recreation, the way they receive their information and news-all of these things reflect underlying spiritual beliefs, and all of these will therefore shape the spiritual beliefs, the community relations and so on, of the people of that culture. …Whoever controls communication, whoever controls information, molds and shapes the corporate image of that society and therewith in large part the image of individuals as well. We have now seen that culture comprises the totality of mans life and that every particular culture reflects an underlying spiritual world view. Pg.33 When we enter into covenant with someone, to one degree or another we make ourselves vulnerable to them; we open ourselves up to them and allow them to mold and shape us, to form or inner image. To some degree, we lower our defenses before them and declare our willingness to mix our lives together with theirs. Pg 37 The covenant therefore determines who will inform the culture, the society, the individual…. This is so because by entering into covenant with someone we give them some degree of a regulating function of our lives: we agree to accept or reject the information that this person, being or institution accepts or rejects. In theory, men may speak of tolerance of differences, but in practice when those differences penetrate to the core of individuals and corporate identity, conflict becomes inevitable. If the relationship is to be maintained, one view must ultimately prevail… The covenant therefore determines, as we shall see, who will function as the true sovereign of a community and, because the sovereign is the one who provides the ultimate information to the community, who thereby determines the image… Pg39 What provides the basis of a sovereign’s authority in a culture or community? What makes someone or some group the supreme ruler, exercising sovereignty within a given society and serving the source of all information that flows through the covenant that holds the community together? The basis of all sovereignty, that is, the basis of all final and ultimate authority, depends upon origins: The ultimate sovereign over a thing is the one who has created that thing, the one who is the original source of information to those who compose that society. The ultimate authority is the author. **** "Only by coming under the complete dominion and sovereignty of the absolute authority of the exogenous God can the internal law be realized, can God's Law be written on man's heart." pg74 And in HH that authority comes primarily and unquestionably through the Apostle. That authority is outlined in "How do you Know." | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
prax, thanks for the kind words. :-) | ||
| not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.177.39 |
trilogy, prax was just playin you! his first paragraph totally throws out what you have observed. interesting that it is coming from a non member... good job prax! oh and tho i did leave arizona hh before kb did what kb did, texas did tell az that if asked, we are not affiliated. as told by then current members. i tell ya i couldn't own a dog without the approval of texas!! wowza what happened to the chain of authority then? its all ABOUT the IMAGE not reality. this is a good thread keep it up guys. ns | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 856 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
The difference is clear. Trilogy has a concern on the 'one man' vs. 'eldership' issue issue. (In the NT you see a type of similar apparent constructive dissonance at play on similar issues.) And Trilogy offers his concern with respect. I see the situation a bit differently and discuss a few aspects. This type of discussion is so difficult for many here that simple respectful dialog is 'playin you!'. Hmmm... Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1697 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.57.69.188 |
No Prax some of us are just plain country folks and call the kettle black... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 862 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. In your current state, Mrs. Alvear, you could call the robes of the saints of the Lord Jesus kettle-black. In Jesus name, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1705 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.57.69.188 |
No I did not...MR JUDGE... | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 24.242.186.194 |
One thing's for sure, there's way too much name-calling going around these posts ... from both sides of the fence. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 866 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Trilogy, I agree. Time to rest back a bit. Appreciate your contribution. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| fullofquestions Member Username: fullofquestions Post Number: 66 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.57.32.25 |
You have to stand on your own. | ||
| under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 364 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.162.115.154 |
Trilogy, Thanks for posting and welcome. Please ignore the name calling as both sides sometimes become passionate and say things in the heat of the moment. You bring a good point. Many groups have one guy at the top that have the final word. Others have a group of Elders or a board that have the final say. Both groups generally have sister groups that they go to when they are stuck over a particular problem. I prefer a plurality of leadership as I feel there is safety in that. There are two problems that I believe exist in HH. First, HH claims to be ruled by a plurality of men. It is great to have plurality of leadership that is what I personally prefer and what HH says they have. However, the reality in practice and the writings of HH prove that is simply not true. HH believes and practices that BA is the sole leader in terms of have the final say on everything. There are plenty of others called Elders or group leaders and they have some oversight but the final say is and has always been BA. Again that is fine there are plenty of groups that have one guy at the top. The problem in HH is they tell the outsiders one thing and practice and teach another. (TH and FH show this clearly in the writings of BA.) The other problem with HH is with BA as the final word there is no other group and I mean NO OTHER GROUP that HH can look to as equals so there is no balance, thus the reason the imbalance existing in HH. The reality that the isolation existing in HH brings is that they are the only group hearing from God. They are the only group that understands covenant and what God is doing in the earth today in these last days. Prax, Dowen before you refute the statement made above please be prepared to name one church or group (that is not directly submitted to HH)that HH would consider a sister church or could take a problem or disagrement within HH to get advise or imput. Under Grace | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 878 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, Surely you understand that a group that is a full and complete sister would by the grace of God be a part with HH, knit together in love. I can even imagine a situation where positions of ministry and responsibility are relinquished by those longer-term in HH as others join together in a bond of peace. Hmm.. more than imagine. Honestly, U_G, I am not sure what you are expecting above. There is a lot of loosey-goosey 'elderships' in Christendom that barely function, there is not a coordinated heart for fivefold ministry. And there is a lot where virtually all functional and hierarchal authority is invested in a person, with a very mild form of eldership, more form than reality. HH has sought as well as anybody I have ever seen to keep themselves real in this regard and to follow a Biblical pattern. It is easy to take pot-shots. You are very welcome to share the most functional and real elderships and ministries you have found. True and earnest Christian community and ministry attempts are always a blessing, and a bit uncommon. So far very little has been offered of interest and dedication and this dovetails with my own ears and sight over some years. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
U_G, thanks for your insights. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 448 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.138 |
There are NO checks or balances on B Adam's authority; NONE. No one in HH dares too even disagree with him. It would be like questioning a fearful god himself. It is a fearful thought. I do mean thought. To even THINK such a thing is equivalent to blasphemy. If a man went beyond THINKING and did it he would be cut down in front of everyone and not restored until he came back sniveling with apologies if ever restored at all. This is a man who "let" (that's as nice as I can put it,) the men work through weeks of nights building an addition on the sanctuary in town. No time to loose, it must be done before his daughters wedding. No permit... one will come... this is God's will. NO hiring outside contractors, so HH men can get sleep... He has free and willing labor. The men are willing to literally lay down their lives to see the visions accomplished. Family time and health are sacrifices for salvation. God will cover it. They get it done, after many guilt trips given so the men to work longer and harder; the wedding takes place... Then the news comes... more nights of hard labor. They must tear it down because there will be no permit. I had a doubt... Did they miss God... No, never! It can't happen. Guilt overcomes me for even THINKING such a thing. No one says anything!!! I don't even hear a mummer. Everyone is just glad that they had the sacrifice to make for such an apostle and his family. The men looked like zombies… What a caring man of God BA is to even "let" these men do this for his benefit. (not) | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 449 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.138 |
Most churches would set a descent pace and figure that no building was worth a man loosing his life. But in HH loosing your life is what it is all about. After each project, there is another; sometimes they over lap. I sincerely doubt that any of these men will reach old age. All for what? Tourist Buildings. Not orphanages or homes for widows; but for a vision of a "City" who’s maker is God. (not) They literally lay down their lives for the sake of laying down their lives. It is their salvation and it may be yours, the visitors. It will help you see God. No cost is too great. In fact, I never even saw the cost counted before hand when it comes to the lives of the men. I would hear guilt trips, and how they must work harder and faster. They will even forgo Sunday meetings to have more "work days." Occasionally they would be given permission to take a day off the project. Yes, I said permission. The group leaders went beyond announcing that Saturday and Sunday would be "work days" and told the members that if they weren't going to be there then they need to call and tell them why. So much for "volunteering." If you think you can join HH and participate at a level of you feel God is leading you too, you are mistaken. Read the fine print in the baptismal oath. You service is totally at their say so. You will lay down your life, not for a friend, but for BA's vision. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 450 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.138 |
When Prax says people who left weren't willing to make the sacrifice, that is part true. MANY left because their children were being raised by Mom and they felt they needed at least SOME time with their teenage sons. Some, like myself weren't willing to sacrifice the truth of the Gospel any longer. Some left because they became unwilling to sacrifice their integrity and conscience any more. When dying to self includes these things, it has gone beyond the biblical limitations of personal responsibility before God. The whole; "God will cover it" because it is God's will... and you know it is God's will because it came form those in Godly authority... shenanigans... is irresponsible and you WILL answer to God for it. Prax, there are some young people, including children of the elders, who left in order to experience the things of the world. But I can honestly say I have not met one single mature adult who left for ungodly reasons. Your mind is living in a fantasy. What it sees of HH is a carefully painted picture. Think reasonably for a moment. Read your own posts. Your description of your recent experience with HH shows how impossible it is for you to know more than they want you to know. HH has set up a wonderful system of projecting an utopian appearance to the outside. The people you have been talking to haven't had any REAL experience with HH either. The people inside are not ALLOWED to tell you everything. Your self denial runs so deep that you can not even entertain the thought that just maybe we are telling the truth. You can’t even imagine people leaving in order to go on with God. Your image of HH is a glass house and you are refusing to doubt HH and even wonder if anything seriously wrong can be going on in HH. You suggest we seek God and are sure if we did that we would repent and see things of God in HH. I want you to know that I have continually sought God. I want you to know that my walk with Him is the most serious thing in my life. I fail Him many times a day, but He is quick to show me and restore me. He is my everything. The Lord is my Shepherd, He supplies my every need. If I have Him, what else could I want? My relationship with Jesus was closer at the time I left HH then any time before that. He called me out and saw me through it. Leaving HH was one of the hardest things God ever asked me to do. I loved them so much. I wanted to stay and hope for changes, but it was not in God’s plans for us. I know you don’t believe me. You want to think we left in rebellion to God, but it is FAR from the truth. We left in obedience to HIM. FH | ||
| pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
isn't odd that Paul and Barnabas could have such a disagreement that they had to part ways? but this in unthinkable at HH...they are superior even to the true Apostles I guess...fh is exactly right. | ||
| covenantwoman6 New member Username: covenantwoman6 Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 24.195.101.245 |
FH - I read your above posts with tears in my eyes - so many familiar terms and facts. I still find myself amazed that I couldn't see what I was involved in for what it was until the Lord opened my eyes - its all clear now and is a carbon copy of HH. In fact, to my astonishment I find that spiritual abuse is much more prevalent than I ever imagined. God bless you sister - I empathize with you. Prax - You may say whatever you want but remember this discussion boards primary purpose is to expose and warn others about abusive groups. All those you call oppo's are victims of abuse and are in all stages of healing - why would you expect them to agree with you when you speak in defense of those who have dealt the abuse? | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 879 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, Other than the usage of a bunch of psychobabble phrases I have little objection with folks sharing their perspective of how they found such and such difficult. To me it is a blessing simply to have a few days where the forum is not being flooded with the vitriol blasphemies. Perhaps some day the overdue and needed apologies will come forth. F_H, you are wrong in your accusations towards me, that are combined with the fav 'glass' or 'bubble' or whatever it is you are peddling today. However I really don't see much point in trying to correct you since you speak from ignorance and this type of diversion is a fairly constant refrain here. (different now, you don't understand this, you are fed that .. yada yada.. ) My base of understanding is not some far-off vague distant thing and when I discuss with friends the level of understanding is deep. I will comment on one thing. Folks leaving for reasons based in unholiness was not unusual. Not just teenagers growing up. My sense is that this is consistent over the years. Now the people who leave with that being a major factor will not usually say upfront 'I left because of ...'. Also sometimes they would drop more out of sight. And God might be reaching to them many years later, even for them to be overcomers in the very same realms where there was struggle. Many examples come to my mind but my heart is that they would be closer to God, not paraded here. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
prax, maybe you could comment on what I said above. why is it that Paul and Barnabas, apostles without a doubt, could have a disagreement to sharp that they had to split up, but HH could never countenance such a disagreement between elders and BA? has HH gotten it right where Paul and Barnabas missed it? Does HH have a thing or two to teach the real Apostles? the truth is it is impossible to return to the book of Acts...there are huge differences between now and then: that was a overwhelmingly Jewish Church; today it is just the opposite...language, culture, etc. make our reality very different from theirs. Truth never changes but reality changes all the time and reality is what we live day in a day out. the idea that HH is a return to the primitive church is absurd. HH is a spiritual hybrid and as with any hybrid plant the seeds do not produce the same fruit again. HH is a spiritual genetic variation. it has taken some Amish, some Hutterite, some charismatic, some pentecostal, some discipleship elements and mixed them together. this is not bad in itself. it is only bad when it is loaded with the fanatical idea of apostleship, the idea that the real truth is here, the true church has finally surfaced... | ||
| pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
and further: the Bible never promises a restoration of the church...it promises a restoration of Israel. there is no Reformation in the Bible... | ||
| not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.189.167 |
prax just refuses to accept what FH is saying. it is clear to me that FH speaks the truth. prax, however must have a very vested interest in hh having a good reputation at all costs. to the harm of many people... maybe when you were there years and years and years ago prax they were a different church. just like the company i work for once was a family owned business. now it is a giant corporation. it operates very differently now. maybe you don't know who they are now prax and i know for sure if you are not submitting to their authority right now that you have no idea of what you speak. doctrine under authority is not disputable. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 843 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hello NS, It is good to see new folks posting here, so welcome. I must disagree with your statement that FH is speaking the Truth though. At this point, I truly believe that The Truth is something FH has thrown out long ago. When FH first started posting here, she was quite cautious, and very choosy with her words. I remember a telephone conversation I had with her at that time, and she was very cautious with the "cult" "death covenant" etc etc nonsense. She went out of her way to make it clear to me that she was NOT calling HH a cult. She did say that she thought parts of HH doctrine was cultic, but she also went on and on about how cautious she was to actually use the word 'cult'. But, as time has slipped by, and as the wolves at Watchman have kept whipping and churning the ex-members into their current state of frenzy, she has has changed her message. What was once an accusation of, "A few cultic tendencies" has now turned into full blown screaming of "Cult!!! Cult!!! Cult!!!". This kind of flip-flopping and wishy-washy behaviour has cost her all credibility in my eyes. I truly believe Robin to be a decent person, and a mother with the best of intentions. I have just come to the sad conclusion that an evil spirit of superiority and self righteousness has overtaken her. And the ones responsible for this are the wolves at Watchman Fellowship. I can understand someone expressing concern for another, but the spirit of throwing wild accusations about does not come from a heart of concern, but rather from a heart laden with revenge and anger. In Robin's case, her heart was once not like this, but a jackal named Phillip Arnn stepped in and soiled it. NS, imagine yourself at the local playground. Children are playing, the sun is shining, it is a beautiful day all around. Out of the corner of your eye you see a child making his way toward the playground. Something about him is different, so you turn to watch him closer. He has that goofy fun loving look of a 9 or 10 year old about him, yet he is much too large for that age. He is wearing clothes that went out of style several years ago, his glasses seem like they are an inch thick, and they are strapped to his head with a big rainbow colored elastic band. You watch him as he makes his way toward the tire swing and every step seems like it takes an eternity. His arms are moving about awkwardly and his legs are swinging around at odd angles, making his out-of-style-too-short pants and thick glasses look even more out of place among the well dressed kids playing around him. Then, a couple kids see the newcomer, and after laughing and pointing at him, run towards him, and start walking next to him. Only they are not walking "normal", no, they are mimicking the poor newcomers every move. When he trips over something in the gravel around the swing set, the "normal" kids immediately fall down and roll about with exagerated gestures of pain and misery. When he shuffles toward the slide, they walk alongside him, pulling their pants up as high as possible, and mimicking his unsteady and erratic gait. Not_Scared, when you see all this, what do you do? Do you rush to the aid of the handicapped child? Do you rebuke the brutes that are mocking him? What do you do? If you are MissionaryLady, ForeverHis, or one of their friends, you simply join in the mockery. What are you going to do? | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 882 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
not_scared, "maybe when you were there years and years and years ago prax they were a different church" Not really n_s. I've discussed this in depth. In some ways I am sure they are different, there always is change and growth - (I even wonder if they would fully agree with my saying they are essentially the same people) - in many fundamental ways it is the same vision and dedication and zeal and love and community. Please understand, that was always the basis of HH, discipleship, sharing, full dedication, community. Fullness of life, fullness of depth. Examination, the light of God really digging deep for us to be overcomers. No facades, real holiness and sanctity, full and without reservations. And the same conversations that are said here today could been held years back. It is not like the plaints are new. Whether a concern is fluff, self-absorption or worthy of consideration they are remarkably identical to my experiences and discussions and understandings in earlier times. And I know of folks who left on similar bases as the vocal posters here. Kapiche ? "now it is a giant corporation" LOL. I needed a good laugh today. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 366 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.188.247.21 |
Hey Everyone, Prax, what part about my post did you not catch? I understand that few churches embrace the five fold ministry. What goes on in HH is exactly as FH described NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE DARES QUESTION BA. That is just the way it is. Dowen, what part do you think FH is lying about? Do you honestly think that Phillip Arnn is the source that has stirred up all of us rebellious ex-members? You are doing what HH has always done first discredit the messenger and then answer questions that were not even ask. No matter how many times you call someone a liar you still have to look at what they have written and decide if the facts are true. Guys what FH has written is the truth calling her a liar will not change that. Under Grace | ||
| not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.190.43 |
prax, i am sure you got my drift with the co. picture. no need to mock. i guess then the same spirit of deception has always been there since your time. Dowen, i hear you on the handicapped kid story, sure i would help the kid out. believe me i was that proverbial red headed step child growing up. however, what these people say, who i don't know, fh, ug, th,,,what they say rings true to me who is also a past memeber. some more than others. i am from az also and still the same story, something must be there. sure i am not for simple name calling but as prax has stated honest dialog i look forward to. and some of that dialog should be doctrinal and some relational knowledge from time spent at hh. to bad i live so far away from ya prax, wouldn't mind talking to you in person sometime. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 844 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
"sure i am not for simple name calling but as prax has stated honest dialog i look forward to." Hey friend, that is all I want as well. Honest dialog. If one really wants to help the handicapped kid, he doesn't mock and make fun of the kid, he helps him. This has been my stand here on FACTNet all along. If you or FH or UG or ML really wants to help HH, then great! I am all for that, and I know the folks at HH are all for that as well. Just like making fun of the handicapped child doesn't help him, mocking and making fun of HH doesn't help them either. Understanding, affirmation, Love, humility, open-mindedness, those things help. Anger, name calling, false accusations, bitterness, self righteousness, pride, deciet...those things help no one. Not_Scared, so far, you seem like a decent person with sincere concerns. I am cool with that, and I think even the folks at HH are cool with that. I think the question you need to answer is; Is FACTNet the place to address those concerns? If you feel the WWW is a Godly place to address the concerns you have, then go for it. If not, then please e-mail me at dowen21@msn.com and I would be happy to help you contact whomever at HH you want to correspond with. If you desire anonymity, that is fine. The same goes for anyone reading this. Yours, DOwen. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 451 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.70 |
I hate to disappoint you, but I have very rarely talked/e-mailed etc. with Phil Arnn over the years. 99.9% of my cult "education" is from my experience at HH and books written by various authors that I ordered over the internet from Amazon.com. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 452 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.70 |
Yes Do, I was careful when I used the word cult on this board, but I did use it with the explanation that it was a cult with a little "c" unlike the Moonies and the UFO Cults with a big "C" I have even heard BA use the word cult with the qualifying statement that cult was a part of culture. HH has it's own books on cult dynamics, but without the same terms; "Garden of God," and "Who Owns the Children." In WOTC, BA describes the dynamics used by the "state" and how they influence the thoughts and decisions of the future generation by supplying the education/information that the future generation will be using to form their thoughts and decisions. In GOG BA explains how the Nazis used various dynamics and the effect it had. Also in GOG, BA describes how the community uses the control of what the people do to form the people into the corporate / community identity. Bottom line is BA knows what he is doing. (See the Garden thread for my explanation.) So HH is a cult. The question is, "Is it "God's" cult?" Is their tight control of the people and the culture, including the information control and the end of individuality for the sake of the image of the community, (all spoken of in GOG,) really the patterns of God handed down through BA? Has BA really been getting the revelations for the end times that people will come to HH for? Is he really an apostle of God? Is his revelation of the gospel, (which is FAR, FAR, FAR from the Gospel accepted as true by our forefathers and still the core of most Christian denominations throughout the world,) a new or recovered revelation from God revealed to BA? | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 453 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.70 |
This claim of revelation is a common one in cults. When I read Jim Jones writings, it was so familiar. The ideas were the same as BA's only stated more simply. I cover this in a thread here too. The thread "Jesus in the flesh..." starts with a writing by Jims Jones. The whole extreme unquestionable authority and submission to it as a means to salvation is not new either. The abuse it leads to can be found in the history of other sects/cults and the testimonies of people on this board. The cult dynamic of laying down your life for the sake of laying down your life and acquiring your own salvation is unbiblical and was practiced and spoken against even in New Testament times. The use of this dynamic to make the leaders dreams come true is also common. Jesus laid down His life to save us, not himself. We are saved by His cross; not ours. We lay down our lives for the needs of those we love, because that is what "Christ in us" wills and empowers us to do. We do it because He HAS saved us, not to save ourselves. BA's gospel is NOT the Gospel that glorifies the Jesus who hung on the cross at Calvary and by whose sacrifice we are saved. BA's gospel and New Covenant is one about the "Jesus still in the flesh" represented by the constitutional "sons" of God in the sacrificial body of HH. BA, nowhere in his writing that I have seen, ever claimed the HH community covenant as another or additional covenant. BA's writings describe the community covenant as the New Covenant promised in the Bible. He doesn't state it that simply, but if your read it carefully you will see he doesn't differentiate the two and he speaks as if they are the same covenant. God showed me while I was still in HH that HE was not my God and that HH had become my God. When I shared that with my group leaders they said, "But Sister Robin, they are one in the same." So I tried again to explain myself and their response was still, "They are one and the same." MANY, MANY, MANY times I heard the testimony that HH was the "salvation," of the individual who was testifying, (yes that is the word they used,) and they couldn't "make it" outside HH. I even testified it myself. Can YOU say you never heard anyone in HH say HH was their salvation? DOwen, which sacrificial body saves YOU? I love you DO. I love your family and many others I left behind. I promise you I would never be here on this board if I thought HH wasn't dangerous. Any gospel where people are saved by any other means than the blood of Jesus on Calvary is dangerous. A gospel that requires submission to men who are "Jesus coming in the flesh" to be saved is the most dangerous of all. The possibilities of harm are only limited by the perfection of the men. Sincerely FH | ||
| not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.190.43 |
good point dowen. think i will ponder this for awhile. prax, i am still trying to figure you out. from my little bit of reading on the web you seem to be a biblical thesaurus, dictionary, historian and all the above. is your zeal for hh due to their teachings and your belief are identicle? there are alot of other churchs on factnet to defend, and beliefs as well. maybe you told everyone here already but i have to find my answere. see ya. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 845 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Not_Scared, Thanks again for your honesty. FH has lots of flowery words and lots of sugary arguments, but in the end she has the same question to answer. Should a Christian go to the WWW and attack other Christians. I don't think so. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1729 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.55.136 |
But you did not answer FH... and yes HH has the possibilities of harm and danger. Please Doen or Prax don't worry about my questions we want to see what your answer to FH will be? | ||
| terluvire Advanced Member Username: terluvire Post Number: 540 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.115.63.15 |
Hi Dowen, I left a message for you on the other thread but I wanted to make sure you got it. Please tell your parents that I said "kudos" on the job they did raising you. You are a fine upstanding young man with integrity and character. They truly did an awesome job! Tell your family I said hi. God bless, Ter | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 885 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
n_s, please understand. There was no mockery intended in laughing at the corporation comment. I even shared it with a friend who had visited recently. It seems a bit left-fieldish and humorous although I know you meant it with a real point. It just doesn't seem to apply very well and is about the most unusual way to describe HH. Please don't take the laugh personally. Maybe we will be able to have a little contact. Arizona is a bit off my beaten path but there are some good web voice venues to chat and who knows what God will do. I actually was involved with a deepish discussion over a speakerphone with some AZ messianic folks recently. Surprised me. Also my email is praxeus@bigfoot.com . Pilgrim, I haven't forgotten your Barnabas question. Tis worthy of a little thought and study. Salvanoot (patience). And if I leave it be awhile, feel free to remind again. N_S "is your zeal for hh due to their teachings and your belief are identicle? there are alot of other churchs on factnet to defend, and beliefs as well." HH is always special to me. God pulled me out of the miry clay through them. And their beliefs are very dear and close. On some issues, I am not even sure of my own beliefs, much less theirs. I actually found that I was over-extended a bit talking about a lot of other stuff on Factnet, and that the need on this forum were the greatest. My own experiences are diverse, the deepest and longest Christian part of my life has been with HH. So it is a natural subject to chat. The Factnet milieu is dubious, and I hope the better contacts here carry over to other venues. However if I only succeed in one thing here, acting as a bit of a shield against certain harsh vitriols, then the time and effort was very worthwhile, for myself and for the posters and readers. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 454 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.135 |
FH has lots of flowery words and lots of sugary arguments, but in the end she has the same question to answer. Should a Christian go to the WWW and attack other Christians. I don't think so. There are some Christians in HH who accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ before joining HH. DOwen, I have been very careful to not attack them. My argument is with the doctrines of HH which are not Christian, especially their gospel of salvation. Which neither you nor Prax have yet to post here. How are men saved according to HH doctrine? If a church holds to the core beliefs of Christianity and the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, then the differences in peripheral doctrines are of no account. If HH was open about what they believe, then I wouldn't have much of a need here. With their many web sites, they could share their gospel and their beliefs so people knew what they were getting into before they became so involved. I am hoping to: 1. Spare others from joining without knowing the costs up front and 2. Possibly reach people in HH with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My motives and intentions are pure, even if not carried out perfectly. Most importantly, I believe I am here posting in obedience to my conscience and the Holy Spirit leading in my life. FH | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1738 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.42.132 |
HH does NOT even believe in evangelizing the "normal" way...HH themselves told me that...They have taught their people that the fair is obeying the go ye command... I personally asked them about this on several occasions...all I could get out of them is the fair...our farm... I do know in the early days they used to do evangelization but they since have been "Enlighted"... A new way to reach the world...have a fair...sing some bluegrass, put on a slide show that doesn't even work right...lol... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1739 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.42.132 |
Strange God gives them special orders on everything and the rest of His people hear nothing of these strange orders that are not even found in the Bible. I do not think I need Charles Taze Russell or Blair Adam's special revelations...I will stick with the Old Book... | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 456 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.151 |
I personally asked them about this on several occasions...all I could get out of them is the fair...our farm... Did you hear the Gospel preached at the fair? I never did. They learned some songs and then when they sang them too many times during Sunday meetings, BA got up and forcefully said, "No more Baptist songs!" His core doctrines and the Baptist core doctrines of salvation are at odds. He didn't mind singing them at the fair. I am sure it helps satisfy the Baptist that HH was a "Christian" community and makes them think there are some similarities in doctrine. They use similar terms, but the meanings of those terms are different. It is a different Jesus, different blood from a different body. It is a different understanding of the New Covenant, and a different grace. Salvation comes by a VERY different means than what is believed by the Baptist, the UPC, and other churches. The fair is an opportunity to show a carefully controlled and chosen face to the public and quiet their suspicions. The visitors center was being built right after the Davidians fiasco, according to what was shared at a meeting, to have a place to stop visitors at the gate without it looking like check point, which is what it was. A few already born again Christians, like me, will seek to join after the fair. Then they can bring salvation to these people who believe they are saved to a point of believing they aren't and that they need HH to get saved. I never met any new people who didn't personally believe they were saved when they came in. Until they were there awhile... (Message edited by foreverhis on January 15, 2007) | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 457 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Not that there is anything wrong with a check point....In this day and age of crazies... But why can't things appear as they are, even in something as simple as this? |
