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blueboy96
Member
Username: blueboy96
Post Number: 76
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.210.117.151
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 12:53 pm: | 
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Looking back on what's happened in the 10 years since I left the Waymaker chamber of horrors, I have to say it's kinda ironic that AFTER leaving an off-the-wall charismatic group, I've ended up going charismatic myself.
It happened two months after I finally got back to God, in February '98. You can probably imagine that I wanted NOTHING to do with anything that even sounded charismatic. My thinking was, "If this is what this 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' does to you, I don't want it!'" Whenever I saw someone raising his or her hands in worship, I couldn't help but think of someone snorting crack or lighting up a joint.
But then I ran into some charismatic and pentecostal people online who weren't anything like the MSI crowd and the televangelists (whom I still watch for laughs most of the time). So wouldn't you know--in April '98, I became a charismatic Christian.
I have to admit, it's still taking a LOT of getting used to. For one thing, there were a few songs that I just couldn't sing, since a lot of songs that were played at Carolina's chapter of Campus Crusade were also played by the Wrong-Waymakers. I still remember nearly breaking down and crying the first time I heard "Shout to the Lord" at Crusade.
So I'm wondering ... anyone else here who managed to remain charismatic or pentecostal, or (as I did) became charismatic after leaving Maranatha/MSI/EN find it hard to get back into charismatic and pentecostal stuff after walking out? |
maranatha1984
Advanced Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 934
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
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Perry much done all the hootahing I am every gonna do!
Now Straight up Calvinist. No tricks and no magic shows for me Blue
Tikie |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1677
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.59
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 1:26 pm: |
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Blueboy , I am still in a charismatic church, even after I left EN. I guess I got born again in a charismatic setting, not maranatha, then compare it to Maranatha - EN.
I have experience , witness and seen the Power of God in my personal life without Maranatha. That has kept me in Charismatic movement even after I left MSI.
MSI - EN is a fake. God never moved in that ministry. He never existed in that ministry. The whole thing is a SCAM.
The Lord never answered their prayers, nor blessed this ministry. Thats why they went on scamming churches and people. Faking everything. |
j2theperson
Advanced Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 589
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 1:35 pm: |
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Theoretically I still believe in what could be considered the more charismatic aspects of Christianity--in the gift of prophecy and in supernatural healing and in miracles. However, I'm very aware that these things happen rarely within the modern church--even in non-abusive charismatic churches, which makes me suspicious of their theology and the way they live out their beliefs.
I don't think I could ever set foot in a charismatic church again. The excessive emotionalism is overwhelming to me. My emotions are personal and private things and I don't like having them manipulated through the sort of worship that occurs in charismatic churches or feeling like I have to display them among people I don't know and am not comfortable with.
I don't attend any church right now, but if I did I think I would lean toward an old and established denomination. Before I stopped attending church I ocassionally went to service at a Lutheran church (Missouri Synod), which overall struck me as a decent and sincere fellowship. |
dust
Advanced Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 981
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 1:48 pm: |
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I'm with Ginger. I got saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit simultaneously, and NOT in EN church. At the time, I didn't even know the CONCEPT of baptism of the Holy Spirit, so it wasn't like I heard about it and then faked it.
After we left EN, we found ourself at a presbyterian church. The Sunday School teacher surprisingly at age 48 got baptized in the Holy Spirit. He did a 6 week brilliant teaching on this, in which he would cry, (and this was so removed from who he had been) formerly. The congregation struggled with this teaching as they had witnessed his bible studies for ten years. I will never forget when he said "I taught from my head and thus it was dead teaching, although perhaps biblically correct, still dead." Now, I teach from the spirit and it's God's teaching, not my own. I marvel that this is where God took us for a while after EN.
We are part of a wonderful bible believing, life giving charismatic church. I was healed physically and spiritually there. It's real for us.
ABOUT THE DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS: I can see how different people are a fit for the different types of worship. My mother is in a Church of Christ..it's perfect for her. I have friends that are Catholic, Baptists, Methodist etc. I respect the different churches and I don't feel I'm right or wrong.
We are where we belong, and it's a great fit for us. We worship God the way we love to and we feel God's love, and I hope people aren't going to mock it based on the false church of EN.
In fact, I am NOW FREE to respect other churches....didn't have that freedom in EN. Only a looking down at everyone because we though we had it all. Yuck to that false thinking! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1679
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.59
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 1:52 pm: |
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J2 even though I am in a charistmatic church, I am not active practice. In other words, I do not go to bible studies nor join in any of their fellowship. I tried it once. I don't fit in. I am more comfortable going to church on sunday. Leave when I want to, go when I want to.
I WILL NOT KISS UP to the Leaders of the Church , just so I can used my gifts in the church. Which I noticed is a pretty common practice even in Charismatic churches. I love being independent. I practice the teaching in Galatian. If I seek the approval of men then I cannot be a servant of Christ.
People will tend to fall into that trap of kissing up to be noticed. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.59
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 2:04 pm: |
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I too like Dust respect people of other denomination. I hate the fakeness in EN. There was never a real true to life "God's move in my life Testimony" among the EN leadership. Because God never moved in their lives. Even the testimony that Phil Bonasso gave in Missouri that people are getting born again in muslims nation. are not true. Christians who worked overseas , who are already born again christians are looking for christians churches and are the ones attending these churches. NONE of the muslims are getting born again. Its all lies.
Just because the EN leaders think that people lived overseas, we would not know the truth. Lies can be kept hidden. Fake Testimonies can be repeated. Thank God for the internet, Information is so easily accessible now . |
dust
Advanced Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 982
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 2:12 pm: |
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The charismatic is very misunderstood. We aren't all casting out demons for hours, or picking up snakes or building shelters.
The Holy Spirit is the UNIFIER....what brings us the real knowledge and wisdom....and what cleanses us and heals us in parts we don't even know about. For me the great life saver.
Some of us are "damaged" beyond human repair. Some of us have holes no man can close. Only God through the power of the Holy Spirit can give us what we need, This is my personal story anyway. Prior to my baptism in the Spirit, I had no spritual understanding and I couldn't get healed of what had ailed me. I couldn't hear. I had NO desire to pray for people, no desire to heal, no desire to witness, no desire to know God. The Holy Spirit fired me up; it was not NATURAL for me. I made fun of such things. So, I don't have a choice. I could be in a baptist or methodist church and I could serve the Lord there, but I would still be a charismatic Christian. In other words, I couldn't get "unbaptized" in the Holy Spirit. |
blueboy96
Member
Username: blueboy96
Post Number: 78
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 74.227.190.41
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 5:23 pm: |
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Dust: "In fact, I am NOW FREE to respect other churches....didn't have that freedom in EN. Only a looking down at everyone because we though we had it all. Yuck to that false thinking!"
I saw that too! In Waymaker, it seemed there was this "we've got something you don't have" attitude. A lot of people I talked to told me that the Waymakers seemed to come off like they looked down on everyone.
I'm not really surprised--has anyone noticed that there is NOTHING about their charismatic orientation in their statement of faith, even though they're charismatic to the core? It's almost like they think that if you don't speak in tongues, you're not going to heaven. A lot of the original pentecostals believed that--they thought that all the other churches were spiritually dead.
Most of my charismatic and pentecostal friends tell me that they can't blame people for thinking that we've got a screw loose somewhere, with that kind of lunacy. |
blueboy96
Member
Username: blueboy96
Post Number: 93
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 74.227.190.41
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 2:46 pm: |
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On a related note--how often did the worship leaders in you guys' churches tell you to raise your hands, shout, clap, etc.?
The unbelievably phony enthusiasm I saw at KPIC sticks with me almost as much as EN's outright gangsterism. I was raised Presbyterian, so seeing people raise their hands, kneel and shout at church was pretty jarring for me to say the least. But what got me was how stage-managed it was. Morgan Bates once said that if you can raise your hands and yell at the Dean Dome or Kenan Stadium, you could easily do the same thing for God. Apparently Morgan forgot that we didn't need to be reminded to stand up for most of a football or basketball game. I like to say that I saw more enthusiasm in my first home football game as a Carolina student (a 45-0 pasting of Clemson--I still remember it for how we replaced the last line of our fight song with "Clemson sucks!") than in six months as a Wrong-Waymaker.
How fake was it in Waymaker? One time, Perry Burkholder was leading worship at a Monday night meeting when he made us start a song all over again because we weren't getting excited enough and we needed to give God "the praise he deserves." One of many times I felt like walking out--but that %&#$% guilty feeling seized me again.
Ever since I've gone charismatic myself, I've felt pretty much like this--if someone tells me to raise my hands and they aren't already up, they ain't going up! |
forword
Intermediate Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 167
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 3:52 pm: |
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There is nothing I hate worse than a worship leader who thinks he has to whip up the congregation into a frothy freenzy...that really works my last neve and it happened at Bethel nearly every week.
People need too be free to be where they are at particular point at time. Not everyone is going to feel like clapping and lifting their hands every week. Our spirituality is not measured by how high we jump, how loud we shout, or how big of a smile we have on our face. As it says in Ecclesiastes 3, There is "a time for every purpose under heaven...a time to weep, and a time to laugh; A time to mourn, and a time to dance..."
And while I am at it, where did this fad get started of pastors saying "turn to your neighbor and say __________"? It makes we want to scream. We are not in kindergarten. And why is it that nearly every pastor does this, even ones I like and respect?
I know there is good that has come from TBN, TV pastors, sermon tapes and the like, but sometime I wish pastors would not listen to other pastors and just listen to God. Then we wouldn't get these silly fads going through all the churches. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 3:57 pm: |
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Blue:
Ahhhh, you are so right. Why doesn't someone tell these worship leaders the HOLY SPIRIT is in charge here. I absolutely HATE someone to tell me to raise my hands. Unfortunately, I think worship leaders think this is part of the deal. They think they are PERFORMING BETTER before the Lord, if people are raising their hands. I want to believe this will pass and is one of those things people will say, "hey, don't control my worship, Don't control my heart!
You had to start a song OVER again?
I'm not going to perform like a seal so church leaders can feel secure. I'm tired of anyone questioning how much I love my God. They don't know me.
They forget it's WORSHIPPING GOD. IT's LOVE. Can you imagine a married couple making love. Wife stops the husband, and says, STOP, we have to start over and this time I want you to mean it. Okay, that would be a good marriage, right! My husband and I don't put heavy burdens on each other to prove our love to each other constantly, and we don't have to PROVE it to God either.
Sorry to get so crude, but I wonder what kind of marriages these people have when they don't understand true love and intimacy. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 4:00 pm: |
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Oh this is too funny. My husband was in his office and I in mine and we didn't know we were both on factnet and both posting to the same thing!
Now, that's equally yoked!
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genesis_truth
Junior Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 50
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 4:54 pm: |
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Equally yoked and a force for God. It is all good and awesome to see such teamwork and agreement in a married couple.
Go hard!! |
genesis_truth
Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 51
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 5:00 pm: |
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I grew up in a baptist church and so worship was quite a subdued occasion - no jumping, dancing, yelling etc.
I also find it a bit irritating when the pastors yell, "Give the Lord a shout this morning!!" Why? Has He suddenly gone deaf and cannot hear me? Then you sit there feeling not so vocal that day and suddenly very small when people around you are so obviously "worshipping" better than you!!
It is like Forword said, there is a time for everything. Sometimes I feel like bouncing around and sometimes I feel like I want to keep it real close and personal. God loves it all but not fakeness and leaders forcing fakeness out of people by winding them up into a pumped state of mind |
osakadan
Intermediate Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 386
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.5.37
| | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 5:33 pm: |
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They think they are PERFORMING BETTER before the Lord
When I watched a Hillsong "worship" it really felt like a performance or a concert. I know that isn't the case for most there but felt strange to me. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 268
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.167.217
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 1:16 am: |
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Genesis_truth:
There is nothing wrong with a pastor or somebody encouraging to give the Lord a shout of praise. It says to do that in the Psalms. Do you have a problem with that? |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1641
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.193.64.160
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 4:58 am: |
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Jonathan you have not been to this church movement. Everybody give God a shout, people yelling at the top of their lungs, pandemonium. Hey that was kind of weak I feel quenched in my spirit that was weak and I am kind of disapointed with you, now give the Lord a shout and mean it. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, PRAISE GOD, PRAISE JESUS (this goes on for a minute or two).
Ever watch one of those Ronco commercials at night Jonathan when the crowd is trying to sound enthusiastic over a set of knives or some rotisserie? Listening to Dust and Forword I will tell you right now that Rice Broocks at Bethel got that behaviour and worship style straight from Bob Weiner. Every 10 minutes Bob would have you get up and give God a shout at MLTS. It was like playing a game of Simon Says. Simon says stand up and give God a shout, louder, o.k Simon says sit down. |
blueboy96
Member
Username: blueboy96
Post Number: 94
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.148.79.57
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 11:59 am: |
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"Why doesn't someone tell these worship leaders the HOLY SPIRIT is in charge here. I absolutely HATE someone to tell me to raise my hands."
Amen, sister (sorry, couldn't resist) ...
Sadly, it's not just an EN thing either--it seems to be a common practice in a lot of charismatic churches. I once heard that there are some parents who pinch their kids to get them to lift their hands. And I remember how Rachael in "Jesus Camp" suggested that churches where the people aren't all hyped up aren't "churches that God likes to go to."
And no, I'm not kidding--I forget what song it was, but out of nowhere Perry made us stop. He then made us start over, saying that this time, he wanted us to give God the praise he deserved. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 1:41 pm: |
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Don't you think it's kind of funny that the one place we all seem to get the most angry in church is during the worship?
Because, as I see it, someone tries to tell me how to love, and then makes a judgement on it.. I've heard things like, "come on church, you can do better" and I'm sick of it.
I am created to love. I know how, so please step out of my way, and leave my heart alone, and let me enjoy my God.
And, then the FORMULA trends, such as "turn to your neighbor." This is silliness and it's wierd and I don't know anyone who likes this goofy stuff. I don't want to turn to my neighbor and do a simon says. I have never liked this kind of thing. I never went to kindergarten, and I never watched Mr. Rogers. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 269
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.167.217
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 4:59 pm: |
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40: I am opposed to the generalizations being made here by the posters. Just because you saw something bad in EN (or what you perceive as bad), doesn't mean #1 it is bad, or #2 it is bad outside of EN. God is interested in the motives of the heart, and not the externals like we are.
If my pastor, for instance, says, "Let's dismiss the service with a shout of praise," everyone shouts "Hallejulah!" What's wrong with that? There is Scripture for shouting praise to the Lord. That was why I was responding to Genesis_truth like that.
Yes, I have watched the Ronco commercials. I do not get a connection from that, though. And, I do not see what Bob Weiner did as bad or wrong, as there is a Scripture basis for it, and its kind of a common practice outside of EN.
Dust: I do agree that the "turn to your neighbor" thing can become hokey. I just do not think it is right to cast judgment on it here like you do.  |
robert_unknown
Senior Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 1:27 am: |
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[quote]Ever watch one of those Ronco commercials at night Jonathan when the crowd is trying to sound enthusiastic over a set of knives or some rotisserie? Listening to Dust and Forword I will tell you right now that Rice Broocks at Bethel got that behaviour and worship style straight from Bob Weiner. Every 10 minutes Bob would have you get up and give God a shout at MLTS. It was like playing a game of Simon Says. Simon says stand up and give God a shout, louder, o.k Simon says sit down.[/quote]
this reminds me on my year at bibleschool (WoF) in scandinavia.
the Dean of the biblecollege called it "morning shower". he would start his 15min of prayer (before the first lesson) with it. it was more a 15 minutes of proclamation, that he led - yes He would say or scream one thing (ie..."i am the head and not the tail") and ALL hundrets of students HAD to repeat it word by word!
and it would ALWAYS start with "Hallelujahhh.... Haaaaalelujah....Halleeeeeelujahh..." for minutes.
Some people got offendet and complained. so he told us a storry one day - very proud - of a guy who got so irritated because he made the crowd scream "hallelujah" for 15(!!) minutes straight!
he said that the guy had religous spirits, because he could not stand this...
imagine how weird is THIS!
You have a religous spirit, because you dont want to act like a total maniac...
so much about this... i will describe this later in my blog, along with other funny stuff that happened in my year at WoF biblecollege! |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1645
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.193.58.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 2:11 am: |
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Yeah robert lets shout I am the head not the tail. Turn to your neighbor and say your the head not the tail. A little is o.k but?
jbk you said: If my pastor, for instance, says, "Let's dismiss the service with a shout of praise," everyone shouts "Hallejulah!" What's wrong with that? There is Scripture for shouting praise to the Lord. That was why I was responding to Genesis_truth like that.
40/40: jbk they take it to far at times and make it unnatural like their trying to praise God through the flesh. I kind of like to end a service with a song of praise on the way out. And I would not mind saying a hallejulah at the end of the service but getting people to scream at the top of their lungs for a long time? I wish they would pass on that type of behaviour and I wish the worship leaders and pastors would stop and say what are we doing? |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 272
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.167.217
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 3:13 am: |
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Robert: Yeah, some people CAN and DO become flakey in the WOF camp. I prefer the simple, "Let's all just do (fill-in-the-blank), and not like you described.
40: Yeah, I know, some do take it too far. But that is no reason to throw out the clean bath water with the dirty, too. |
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