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osakadan
Intermediate Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 333
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.237.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 6:45 am: | 
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In light of what we know of EN'S history and the attempted suicide of a Victory Club student after being told to stop medication and trusst god, I am seeking to start warning high schools of these clubs.
Every Nation New Zealand call it Zeal. On their website they boast of links to 5 public schools. I urge you to write of your concerns to these and other you may know of, in any country. |
osakadan
Intermediate Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 334
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.237.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 6:46 am: |
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These are the addresses of the schools, Board of trustees and PTA officials.
reception@kelstongirls.school.nz, office.seniorschool@hillarycollegiate.school.nz, enquiries@otahuhucollege.school.nz, headmaster@mags.school.nz, CarmelR@orca.com, heleng@maxnet.co.nz, magsbusiness@xtra.co.nz, ptwist@mags.school.nz., enrol@mags.school.nz, pmckinley@mags.school.nz, ywilliams@mags.school.nz, mbertram@mags.school.nz, tkeenan@mags.school.nz, cmetcalfe@mags.school.nz, jwilliams@mags.school.nz |
osakadan
Intermediate Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 335
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.237.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 6:48 am: |
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Below is a copy of the letter I sent. Schools are on vacations until the end of January so I don't expect replies for some time.
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing in regards to your school's association with Every Nation and their Zeal programme. Every Nation is actively advertising the link with your school on their website.
Perhaps you are unaware but Every Nation is quite controversial in their home country, the USA. In 2005, two sets parents brought lawsuits against Every Nation as a result of their Victory Club involvement at Hillboro High School in Tennessee.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Nation#Legal_disputes
Parents of two students there charged that Victory Club had hidden its true nature and that their daughters had been psychologically damaged by it. One is said to have suffered a nervous breakdown with the other attempting suicide. The student had been taking anti-depressant medication for a previous suicide attempt but discontinued the medication when a church staff member had told her that her relationship with God was strong enough that she no longer needed to take anti-depressive medication. As a result, the parents sued Victory Clubs (which has since been folded into Every Nation Campus Ministries), Bethel and the Metro Nashville government in the the spring of 2005.[25][26]
In addition to this controversy, Every Nation has as a direct lineage to the controversial Maranatha Campus Ministries(MCM) of the 1970's and 1980's. Such was concerns over the cult like nature of MCM that they were banned from the University of Auckland for ten years. http://www.craccum.com/2005/12vcm.htm
I strongly urge you to investigate this matter fully, and reconsider Every Nation's involvement with your school.
Sincerely, |
osakadan
Intermediate Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 337
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.237.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 8:01 am: |
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I have also sent a letter to the NZ Minister for Education as these are public schools.
Mr Maharey
smaharey@ministers.govt.nz
I would urge you to also. If we believe Every Nation has not really changed we have an obligation to do something other than just chat about own hurts. Lets stop them influencing youth. |
sunshinesaint
Junior Member
Username: sunshinesaint
Post Number: 49
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 124.197.13.64
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 8:03 pm: |
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Osakadan - GREAT STUFF!!!
did you belong to the Auckland church? Are you currently in NZ??? I am wondering if we perhaps know each other... |
osakadan
Intermediate Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 340
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.237.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 8:17 pm: |
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No, I was in MCM in Australia.
About 5 years ago I knew an 18 year old girl who got caught up with a cult. It was recognizable from the start.Did some research and then confronted her with it. She wanted "permission" from me to stay a part of it. I told her it was her decision but these were the reasons why I thought it was wrong. 5 days later she took a pill overdose.
She survived but is messed up to this day. Intellectually I don't feel responsible because it was handled quite well and I got her parents involved etc but emotionally I feel responsible.
Reading about the Hillsboro girl in the states reminded me of it all and I decided I just couldn't sit back. Just happened to be reading the Every Nation NZ page and they were boasting of their high school involvement.
Enough is Enough! |
genesis_truth
New member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 8:25 pm: |
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Bravo Oskadan. You are doing an excellent job |
sunshinesaint
Member
Username: sunshinesaint
Post Number: 51
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 124.197.13.64
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 9:33 pm: |
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"Enough is enough"..sounds familiar  |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 69
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 12:39 pm: |
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Who ever you are osakadan, I thank you from the bottom of my soul and heart. I am the mother of the child who stopped taking her medicaton.
God bless you! |
dust
Advanced Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 996
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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Bartoc,
Welcome back. I'm wondering if you have any news for us, or maybe you can't talk.
Fret not, it's not over for us here. And, I thank Osakadan too.
I hope your daughter is okay.
Dust |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 70
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 1:17 pm: |
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Hey dust, good to hear you typing. Hope all is well with you.
I have been keeping up from time to time but I am unable to really comment.
Daughter is great! Thanks for asking. Keep kicking!
Bartoc |
osakadan
Intermediate Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 364
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 121.82.133.94
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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Glad to hear your daughter is doing well Bartoc.
I was only 19 when I became involved in MCM, not much older than your daughter. So I know of some of the fear and worry this has caused your family. Thank goodness you got her back. If you think it is appropriate, please pass on my best wishes. |
truthseeker180359
New member
Username: truthseeker180359
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.52.167.74
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:13 am: |
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I just saw the thread with a letter that has been written by “Osakadan” to some schools in New Zealand about the Victory Clubs lawsuit – with a comment from “Bartoc” who said “I thank you from the bottom of my soul and heart. I am the mother of the child who stopped taking her medication.”
Now I am basically a pretty fair minded person – and to my mind this new course of action is totally off the wall!
For starters – why not check out Bethel’s website posting (http://www.bwoc.org/complaint_resolved.html)where you can read a letter, written under legal oath and signed by Gill Gustafson, her daughter Laurie and Maria and Felicia Vega. It makes for fascinating reading, even if the only thing you know about this case is the media hoopla about Laurie being told not to take her medication and Felicia being induced into extended fasting competitions.
Now the truth – as revealed by the Plaintiffs of this lawsuit in their own words – paints a very different picture! These same people now say that that Bethel, its pastors and the Bethel Parties (which INCLUDES Every Nation and Victory Clubs and Rice Broocks) “have sincere beliefs which can be a positive influence in the world” and that they are “good and decent people motivated by the spirit of Christ, who try to live Christ’s teachings and who desire to help young people in need”
Now about the fasting competitions – which their lawsuit claimed lead to Felicia ending up in hospital suffering from dehydration and malnutrition… Well – looks like that was a complete fabrication!
I quote again from the letter signed under oath [IE – you swear to tell the truth and if you lie you’re in trouble with the law!) by Felicia and her mother: …”it should be clarified that Felicia Vega engaged in NO fasting competitions with any one”
But it gets worse…
“Felicia’s fasts consisted of skipping solid foods but consuming fruit juices and other healthy beverages”
Anyone who has even a passing interest in medicine would know that this is hardly going to put you in the hospital!
Now onto the accusation that Laurie was told not to take her medicine:
“…it should be clarified that the Gustafson parties do not claim that any Bethel parties told or suggested to Laurie that she should not take any of her medicine”.
So… as I said in one of my earlier postings on this subject, it is foolish to be judge, jury and executioner before the facts are known and while the jury is still out.
But one has to question the ethics behind the parents who put their kids up to this type of scam! |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:26 am: |
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Truthseeker,
You have suggested "that the parents decided to put their children up to a scam."
Do you have any facts to support your statement that the parents intentionally told their children to lie and that they planned a scam? |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 567
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.31.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:51 am: |
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MMMM.... a month or so after I started posting and writing letters about this and suddenly there are 2 people, Iamspartacus and thruthseeker discussing this out of the blue. If I didn't know better I would think it was En trying to do damage control. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 568
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.31.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:58 am: |
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TENNESSEE FRANKLIN COMCAST CABLE COMMUNICATIONS INC
Thruthseeker - would you care to divulge if you are En staff or not? Your ip address show you are located in Franklin, TN |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 11:44 am: |
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Interesting that this could be posted on Bethel's website when all the case documents have been sealed. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 572
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.31.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 12:09 pm: |
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And actually, one could also speculate that the letter was written as part of a financial settlement agreement. Who knows?
What I find disturbing is that forget if they have legal entitlement to or not, but EN has published the names of minors. Totally unnecessary. |
iamspartacus
New member
Username: iamspartacus
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2007
Posted From: 67.52.216.4
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 12:22 pm: |
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Ul, you bring up a good point. It would be nice to have someone will real legal experience help us understand words like “sealed” & “without prejudice”. I like Law & Order, but I do not think that this counts for much. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 573
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.31.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
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I think one problem is that we have yet to see the court documents. While some might believe the documents were sealed, is this a confirmed fact? |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 12:33 pm: |
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Yes it is a confirmed fact that it is sealed. I am curious, since it is sealed, does that mean Bethel just literally broke the law ? |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 1:35 pm: |
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People are "educated" today. You don't have to have law degrees to understand the basics of the law and the comment about Law and Order seems to show a smart alec approach here. Many people posting here have graduate degrees, law degrees, etc. or have done enough research to be able to navigate sociology, psychology, law and theology. We are not dumb, gullible Archie and Edith Bunkers...
There seems to be a "glee" from the EN side about these girls and their famiies, but to post their names and basically be content to think they are liars (which I don't think they are), is smug, is cruel.
To see a complete recant does not make sense. EVEN IF Every Nation was for the sake of argument well-meaning and misunderstood, something went wrong and this is not most likely a case of evil teenagers and evil parent conjure up a story because it would be fun to sue a church. No no no, there was real life PAIN involved. I tend to think the teacher was probably doing what she thought was helpful, blanketed over an unhelpful theology. However the leaders at EN....well, I heard how they spoke about the mother. I heard the hateful names they called her and the spin they put on her background. I heard it FIRSTHAND, but I won't repeat it, because I won't do that to the mother. There was NO COMPASSION for the mom. There was NO love thy enemy, bless those who curse you. It was the same kind of back biting gossip that I heard in the EN office about Pastor Ray SEVEN years ago.
Paint your lily white stories to protect yourself. But, God sees and hears every word that comes out of your mouths. And, I take great comfort in this.
And MY PRAYERS today are going for Bartoc and the children involved...that this will not diminish their chance of knowing Jesus Christ and knowing that God truly loves them with a BIG HEART.
We can make guesses all day. I know how law suits really operate. I've been on both ends of two settled cases, and it's way beyond LAW AND ORDER and quite amazing how things get covered up and defended, often having nothing to do with justice, but everything to do with how money can be exchanged and secrets kept secret. |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 72
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 2:09 pm: |
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Truthseeker,
I would like to comment...wow, would I like to comment, but I am unable until I check with my attorney. But I can ask...how did you get this web site address (obviously speaking of this specific page, not the whole of bethel's site)and who posted it in the bethel organization? Who told you to go look at this or told you to post this on FactNet?
If you are so helpful in handing out this information, why don't you continue in helping us out to understand how/why and who put this on the bethel website.
I have been extremely transparent on this board from my identity to information on the case(honest people have no need to hide). Can you be the same Truthseeker, in the spirit of truth seeking? Or does your truth seeking only go so far. I am asking you to back up what you said. If not willing to stand behind your information, then all information coming from you should be suspect, and therefore disregarded as probable lies and half truths.
God bless all here,
Bartoc |
genesis_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 116
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 3:06 pm: |
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If in fact the Bethel website happens to have this information that is reasonably easy to access from Joe Bloggs in the public, that is utterly disgraceful. How dare they put names out there (especially of minors as Osakadan mentioned). Who do they think they are??? Are they above the law or just stupid? |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1184
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 3:46 pm: |
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God Bless you Bartoc. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 3:58 pm: |
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Actually, this also reminds me very much of what happened with the ad hoc committee, though now with attorneys involved.
Memo summarizing the ad hoc committee's first meeting with MCM, 11/20/82:
quote:In light of MCM's willingness to modify certain areas of teaching and practice where advised by Drs. Farah, Horner, and O'Malley, and because we have high regard for and confidence in the integrity of these Christian professors, the following conclusions were decided upon and were agreeable to all present:
1. We do not believe MCM is a cult or destructive organization. Rather, they are sincere Charismatic Christians who have, by their own admission, made some serious mistakes and serious errors of judgement in their ministry. They are willing to subject themselves to examination by and admonition from other Christians, and to make the necessary corrections as should each of us who follow and serve Jesus Christ as Lord.
I've talked/communicated with some of the members of the ad hoc committee, and this statement was indeed "in light of MCM's willingness to modify certain areas of teaching and practice," which they did not seem to follow through with in a substantive way, at least not according to the ad hoc committee members I've communicated with. One member has told me point blank that since they did not change, he believed that they reneged on the agreement and therefore that they were really a "cult-like" organization - and that EN leadership with roots in MCM indeed may be even more entrenched in their beliefs and practices than they were back in the 1980s.
From the ad hoc committee's report to MCM, 1/5/84:
quote:The committee is concerned that the leadership of MCM has not fairly represented the intent and extent of the statement that was issued following our meeting in November 1982 to inquirers. Reports have been received that MCM leaders have used last year's statement as an endorsement for the ministry when it obviously was not. The following are two examples for which the committee has documentation:
Example 1: An MCM leader stated, in specific reference to last year's meeting, that MCM was given a letter "that said we were a valid Christian group on the university campuses" [tape on file].
Interestingly, no reference was made to the comments in that letter regarding "serious mistakes and serious errors of judgment" on the part of MCM.
Example 2: A letter from the Gainesville office said, "We have been adjudicated by Spiritual Counterfeits Project as 'sincere charismatic Christians.' We do not view this as a 'clean bill of health' and are working with them on areas of complaint that come up from time to time . . ." [letter on file]. This clearly misrepresents the intent of the statement that was released last year.
And of course, the conclusion of the ad hoc committee's final statement, 5/8/84:
quote:In conclusion, it is our opinion that MCM has failed to properly distinguish between the nature of a private grievance procedure and a public issue requiring public comment. It should be noted, however, that this statement, in its entirety, has first been communicated privately to the leadership of Maranatha Christian Ministries. Because of the public nature of the questions being raised by others about MCM, it is our opinion that wider discussion of these concerns is needed in both the Christian and non-Christian communities. Those of us who have signed this Statement have been approached by individuals as well as by national organizations seeking our evaluation of MCM, and we hereby present a summary of our concerns.
Until we have clearer understanding of the changes which MCM claims are being implemented and until we see more discernible evidence of change in the lives of people being impacted by MCM, we would not recommend this organization to anyone.
(Message edited by ulyankee on February 07, 2007) |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1353
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 4:00 pm: |
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And finally, Dr. Ronald Enroth's note on a copy of MCM's 8/9/84 critique of the ad hoc committee's final report:
quote:NOTE: I first saw this Critique on March 15, 1985 and it is my understanding that no one on our ad hoc committee had received a copy of it prior to that date (I did not receive it from MCM). It is regretable that MCM did not have the Christian courtesy to provide us with copies.
R. Enroth 3-30-85
|
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1354
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 4:19 pm: |
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BTW, the letter is linked from BWOC's home page, under Special Announcement: Victory Clubs Complaint Successfully Resolved. So anyone visiting their website could see and access this, not just those specifically looking for it. |
maranatha1984
Senior Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 5:47 pm: |
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Tikie;
The acorn does not fall far from the tree. BTW sealed with prejudice simply means that both parties agreed to close the matter and that the judge has ordered that all documents etc etc be
locked and not publicly discoled. The without prejudice means it is not to protect either party...thereby implying that it was not sealed because one party was injured and does not want it disclosed because of that |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 576
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.31.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 5:58 pm: |
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I thought that it also had something to do with if the case could be re-opened or not. |
coppertree
Senior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 1167
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 4.229.144.163
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 6:54 pm: |
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Hi All, Catching up,
It is my understanding that with prejudice, means can not be sued again under the grounds based in the original complaint that was filed to start the action.
Sealed, the case documents are not available for persons to see, and the final dispersement of the case is held among the parties. This usually occurs with settlements.
Without prejudice, means the court action , for various reasons , is withdrawn and can be reinstated at another date.} |
truthseeker180359
New member
Username: truthseeker180359
Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.52.167.74
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 7:31 pm: |
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Wow – so much activity in one day! Well, since I seem to have been responsible for opening a “can of worms”, I thought that I should clarify a few points:
To me, the fundamental question is whether or not you are interested in the now proven fact that the allegations made by the Plaintiffs in this case were untrue? The case was dismissed with prejudice. The Plaintiffs evidently lied. It might not sound very nice, but I cannot see any other way to read it.
…or whether I am a member of EN staff? Mind you, on a site where conspiracy theories are so rife I can understand why you would be a bit suspicious! I do live in Franklin (well spotted!) and I do attend Bethel and picked this posting up from their home page.
FYI - I am also not writing "out of the blue" as could be ascertained if you look back on the records of this particular matter. I have had several prior postings because I was concerned from the first time I heard of this case that it was a deliberate attempt to damage Bethel's attempts to help kids with the many and serious problems that they face in and outside of school. From the beginning it also struck me as a thinly veiled attempt to try to extort some money from the insurance company – or maybe that is just my suspicious mind?.
Dust – Although these girls were minors when the action commenced, I understand that they are now adults. They both had their names on the complaint together with their parents and their accusations were long and detailed.
I concede that it is possible that the girls had no idea what their mothers were doing while they were still minors, but they both the opportunity and the responsibility to do speak for themselves when they turned 18. But if they did not know what their mothers had done, I think that this is even more questionable from a parenting point of view than if they were in collusion from the beginning. The facts are the facts – what was stated in the complaint was refuted in a sworn letter signed by both the parents and the girls.
What can any reasonable person make of that?
I also read your passionate posting about the pain that these girls went through and I have a high level of sympathy for them as they are clearly very disturbed young people. But no one seems too concerned - at the time or since – that the teacher at the school had her career derailed and her reputation ruined by these same people on TV and in the media. Are you also praying for her also? I hope so – this certainly needs much prayer. |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 388
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 63.83.195.194
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:05 pm: |
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Hi Truthseeker…
Well, I’m rather clueless about EN and rarely post on EN specific threads but I followed the links on this one. Although, I’ve not followed this case, closely…I read the comment’s on Bethel’s website and the letter. While, it provides a settlement of the complaint, it doesn’t provide vindication…or necessarily an accounting of the truth. The letter walks a fine line distinguishing between the parties identified in the suit as being those that could not be specifically identified as providing specifically stated instructions on specifically do this or do that…but that hardly addresses the impact of peer pressure on a teenage girl’s mind. Sigh.
Or the unstated “Spiritual” pressure that can be exerted by Christians in an intense group setting. Isn’t fasting suppose to be done in secret so only the Lord knows? Certainly, the Lord has blessed us with the wonders of modern medicine, but if we really, really have enough “Faith” wouldn’t we be healed if we pray? If we are depressed, isn’t that a demon of depression and we can be “delivered” from it by the Holy Spirit? And sure we are to honor our parents, but aren’t we to forsake our families to pick up our cross and follow Jesus? These all frequently unstated, but quite understood “beliefs” among some Christian groups…many years ago I was in a similar group and I was older and “wiser” than a teenager… Did I believe that they were genuinely good people involved who sincerely wanted to serve the Lord? Absolutely. Did their teachings hurt me? Absolutely. Did some of them know better? Absolutely. Did I keep secrets from my parents? Absolutely. Was Jesus Faithful? Absolutely…and thankfully by the Grace and Mercy of God to Restore me and heal me to know His Abundant Joy.
So regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit, my prayer is that EN uses this opportunity to ensure that these young Believers are treasured and cherished and protected…even if these were the only two instances out of a hundred thousand positive ones. Don’t let there ever be another. Care must be taken in what is being taught, how it is being taught, by whom it is being taught, and HOW IT IS BEING UNDERSTOOD by the students. To me, it doesn’t matter if legally there’s no “guilt”…this still happened. That is the Truth. The girls were injured…while trying to serve Jesus as they thought they’d been shown by those around them in the Victory Clubs or at Bethel. If their teacher was not the example, then he or she was caught up in the same chain of events…which still falls back onto something the girls encountered in the teachings at Bethel….find the problem and make sure it is fixed. It should've been as simple as that...that's what we are called to do...Love one another...bear one anothers burdens...
And calling them liars doesn’t heal…and doesn't show Jesus...it shows a bit of arrogance that's unbecoming when you know the other party cannot speak on its own behalf & it wounds again...which sadly seems to support some of the more negative comments I've read regarding Bethel's devouring of small fish.
My prayers for all concerned and that the Love of Jesus somehow makes a way... |
lablady2
Senior Member
Username: lablady2
Post Number: 1421
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 12.219.171.224
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:16 pm: |
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"But no one seems too concerned - at the time or since – that the teacher at the school had her career derailed and her reputation ruined by these same people on TV and in the media. Are you also praying for her also? I hope so – this certainly needs much prayer."
I don't have any experience with EN, so I can't speak to the issues involved. However, I have been troubled at times by some of the things that are posted here as "fact", both pro EN and con.
As a former member of MCM whose son almost died as a result of our involvement, I have to admit that it crossed my mind a time or two to pursue legal action against MCM and the leadership, but I never felt good about it "in my spirit". I can tell you today that I am very glad that I didn't pursue that course because there are people - good people - who may have suffered some long term damage to their reputations and careers had I done so. Initially, in my anger, I thought some of their actions were intentional and mean-spirited, but, with time, I determined that most were people like myself during that time: young, confused, zealous and misled.
That doesn't mean that I don't think legal action should be taken in cases of intentional abuse, financial irresponsibility or illegal activity. In fact, I think a court of law would be the perfect place to do that because both sides would be compelled to have their say under oath. However, I sometimes find it troubling when names are named when relating events that aren't witnessed or documented. I guess it's just a case of doing what your heart tells you and what you can live with. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1185
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:16 pm: |
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Truthseeker,
You PROFILE Bartoc as one who as in your words, made "a deliberate attempt to damage Bethel's attempts to help kids with the many and serious problems that they face in and outside of school."
Not only this, you also day, "it also struck me as a thinly veiled attempt to try to extort some money from the insurance company."
There are THIRTY YEARS of stories of abusing YOUNG PEOPLE, even TEENS and you paint Bartoc guilty of extortion. Big words for a nice Franklin housewife. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:33 pm: |
|
Truthseeker, I really do want to thank you for posting that link. right now , i am just waiting for Bartoc comment. And so far, you are not involve in the case.
According to Bartoc, who is directly involve of the case, which she posted above "probable lies and half truth".
She said she will check with her attorney. Hopefully we would hear more from her side of the story not just Bethel. Rice has a reputation for spinning a story. Remember the Ad Hoc Committe. He was there. Knowing he has done that before, he could have done it again and we known EN reputation, these EN leaders thinks they are above the law. And would flirt with the law time and time again. |
genesis_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 117
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:55 pm: |
|
Amen to that dust.
Truth, there is much, much history of devastated lives and broken spirits, crippling self-esteem and depression resulting from this ministry. It is quite disgusting and hurtful when someone attempts to support them or stand up for them. I used to do the same thing and it disgusts me because I acted in pride (thinking En was better than all other churches and Christian movements), and ignorance (not knowing or not trying to know the truth of what has gone on).
I am married to a beautiful woman who has several times been beaten sprititually and has experienced great pain as a result of EN leadership and the movement itself. Only now is she starting to get over it and sometimes still sinks a bit as she tries to swim and move on with her life.
What also annoys me (and I believe it annoys others here) is when people come on here and write off events as one-offs or misunderstandings!! Wake up and smell the roses!! 30+ years of abuse, deceit, manipluation and destruction (not just in the states but all over the world) is evidence that EN has problems and has caused immense damage to many people who have been involved.
You know, people who try to accuse those who have suffered in this ministry as fakes, extorters etc make me sick. My wife has had similar (not the extortion part) put towards her. It is a pitiful attempt by EN who have their backs against the wall (though they will not admit it) to discredit the ones suffering and try and block out what they must realise is wrong, dangerous and bordering on evil.
Truth, why don't you read this forum properly and see these stories. Surely all over the world there cannot be so many liars saying the same thing without having even met each other or conspired together.
Seeing as you are from Bethel, ask some of the leaders about events mentioned on here. Ask them and see how they answer. You know if they reply that Factnet is just a bunch of dissatisfied people trying to make trouble that there is something they are hiding - that is such a cop out. Search properly and open your eyes because this movement has covered so many things up.
(Message edited by genesis_truth on February 07, 2007) |
forword
Intermediate Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 169
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:21 pm: |
|
I want to thank truthseeker for opening up this can of worms, as I have always wanted to tell my story about my daughter. She was harrassed by a gal in the teen ministry (in her 20's). My daughter was 16. She began to try to build a wall between us and our duaghter. She was pressuring her with multiple phone calls to spend the night at her house (which was inappropriate). All this without ANY relationship or even any communication with us. Our daughter felt pressured and torn. Finally, she came and told us what was going on. She was confused. Because we were on ministry team, she was thinking she should be getting "with the program" ...but she finally said she wanted the girl to stop calling her. We put a stop to it.
We were members in good standing, very active on the ministry team. We should have been communicated with. It was a real issue. STUPID US, we were afraid to question the way things were done. There was not enough parental involvement. We wanted to be involved. In fact, my wife wanted to be involved in the teen ministry, but was told she was too old...which is another thing that really bugs me...the fact that they have peers discipling peers rather than using the knowledge and wisdom of someone older and wise to the world. (FWIW, My wife would have been great. In fact, many young women at the church looked up to my wife and asked her to disciple them)
Now, from my vantage, I know I felt pushed aside as a parent, I'm trying to imagine not being a Christian or a member of Bethel, how I might feel violated, feeling like the church was driving a wedge between me and my child.
Oh and Truthseeker, I don't want a dime from Bethel...except maybe they could give back money I gave to World Partners. I'm sure I could find someone in greater need than those who got the money.
A CONCERNED FATHER |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 237
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 69.89.98.241
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:36 pm: |
|
Well put genesis. Anything that even hints that somehow EN is vidicated overall by this is living in a world of unreality. Factnet's EN section is filled with information and examples of wrong doing that has occured over the years and up 'til today. This is far from a one time occurance.
I would never have found out even a small amount of what I know now if it weren't for factnet and the posters here and it has taken a lot of research and reading to get the bigger picture. I no little about law, but I would be livid if i were bartoc that this letter was publicly posted in light of the case being sealed, so if that letter were legitimate or legitimatly posted, then it must be outside of the case records, so to speak. I would wonder what pressures were involved in garnering such a letter that could be posted publicly under such circumstances.
I don't know how the case went behind tyhe scenes and I sometimes remain sceptical of verdicts (like OJ for instance) where a case is dismissed or won despite the outcome so I remain skeptical about EN and their methods despite this. I am sorry for what the parties went through and now, no doubt continue to go through regardless of the outcome. I always have hoped for reform and rarely overtly attack them in most areas, but something stinks in all of this.
I can't blame truthseeker for the cautions as they are real considerations in all cases. It's true we are not judge and jury from afar. I don't see this as a cause for too much boasting on EN's part as really none of their inherent issues of sin are really vindicated in this. It is one case and one case does not vindicate a history of abuse that has extended for years. No one wins every battle in a war, and though this battle or round may have been "won" by EN, the body of their beliefs and practices will continue to provide plenty expose the reality of what's going on. Maybe some individuals were spared in this case (EN leaders) because the overall body of their teachings probably don't support these occurances.
Ultimately, I know that all those involved will answer to a higher authority than a U.S. court, so there really is no eternal vindication here anyway. They post in what seems to be a victory and that is fine. They don't get much chance to do so and it's not all that bad to have this here because if it's true and legit, then its an important piece. If its not, then it's a big mistake. Seems like a bit of gloating, but we do that occasionaly.
It's just sad that it's done publicly in a way that despite the without prejudice, one party who are real people aren't so unprejudiced. The individual never was considered worth much compared to the whole anyway. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1186
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:36 pm: |
|
Genesis, I am every day grieved for what your wife has gone through, and I think when will it end?
Asking people like Truthseeker to read properly here at factnet is good idea. It's hard though when you are attending the Holy Shrine of Brentwood to know what getting the FULL story and the WHOLE truth means.
Rice has a motto: It takes the WHOLE church to reach the WHOLE world.
Dust has one too: It takes the WHOLE Truth to reach a decision balanced with wisdom and compassion. |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 238
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 69.89.98.241
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:48 pm: |
|
I feel the anger rising when i read something like that foreward. With 2 teenagers at home, I can not put into words how I would feel if that were occuring in my family. From your own church yet! That is unbelievable. I'm glad you nipped it in the bud when you did. The wedge thing between parents has always been there since they reach our kids, but to have it happen within the church is cultish to me.
another concerned father |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 239
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 69.89.98.241
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:53 pm: |
|
sorry. I couldn't have butchered your name forword more if I tried. |
genesis_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 118
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 11:02 pm: |
|
I tried to email info@bwoc.org (email listed on the contact section on the website) to ask them about this being put on their website. However it came back saying no such email exists. Does anyone know the email address? |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 1:28 am: |
|
Unfortunately, I am bound by a confidentiality agreement. What I am able to say according to my attorney is: the case was settled with prejudice. A benevolent contribution was granted to each of the families to help with medical expenses. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1828
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 1:57 am: |
|
So there is a settlement. I do not believe that Bethel would give a "benevolent contribution" to each families. After what happened, it is just not Bethel LOL !
Medical expenses ? So it did happened. |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 240
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 69.89.98.241
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:13 am: |
|
I don't understand what with predjudice means. Does that mean that no one is "at fault" or only one side. I've seen without and with used here and I am unclear on the meanings. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 577
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 218.130.221.129
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:37 am: |
|
Thank you for the clarification Bartoc. That gives us a lot to read between the lines with. Though there is no public admittance of fault in the case, it can certainly be implied with A benevolent contribution was granted to each of the families to help with medical expenses that there is some admittance of fault.
Considering that, would you like to comment Truthseeker? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but you should also understand why I strongly consider you are an EN spindoctor.
1. You came here calling the girls liars. There is nothing in the documents posted that suggested that. Either youre trying to paint them as such or EN is telling members that.
2. You have labelled the parents money grabbers trying to make fradulent insurance claims. Is this what you were told or are you just putting EN spin to discredit the case?
3. You are disengenious in saying the girls are now of age. Criminal records of minors are usually sealed even when becoming adults. These girls should be given the same privacy. EN has basically attacked the girls by making their names available to everyone. Are you responsible for this also? Are you an EN spindoctor downplaying this? FRANKLY, IT IS DISGUSTING. As a christian, you should be ashamed. Lets remember, it wasnt just about fasting. A young girl attempted suicide. You should be seeking to protect these girls. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 579
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 218.130.221.129
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:54 am: |
|
Bartoc,
I was thinking about your lawyer approved statement. If it could be included in wikipedia, it would defintely influence any parents who had children involed with EN. The settlement would allow people to draw their own conclusions as opposed what seems to be EN&s current spin about saying the girls were lying.
As this is only a fourum it can&t be used as a reference for wikipedia. It is a large request and possibly one you should turn down but please consider asking your lawyer to allow an official statement to be released. That would allow it to be posted on wikipedia without the possibility of ever being removed.
Hope things are well with you and your family. Warm regards,
Dan |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 390
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 63.83.195.194
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 5:18 am: |
|
Hi XMan, Glad to see that you've stayed around! I've been traveling for a bit, just getting back online now. I've been trying to play catch up, and have been enjoying your posts and your progression through this crazy forest. Maybe this will help a bit.
From Wikipedia
quote:In law, the phrase without prejudice means that a claim, lawsuit, or proceeding has been brought to a temporary end but that no legal rights or privileges have been determined, waived, or lost by the result. For example, if a party brings a lawsuit in small claims court but discovers that the claim is greater than the amount for that court to have jurisdiction, the lawsuit can be dismissed "without prejudice". This means that the dismissal is no bar to bringing a new lawsuit in a court that does have jurisdiction.
By contrast with prejudice means that a party's legal rights have in fact been determined and lost. To continue the same example, if instead the court had jurisdiction, but the plaintiff did not appear for the trial, the court would dismiss the case "with prejudice". That dismissal is a judgment against the plaintiff "on the merits" of the case, and extinguishes the claim that was being sued over. However, this does not prevent an appeal or a trial de novo if ordered by a higher court.
Since all documents are sealed. We are just speculating that some sort of settlement between the parties was reached which probably involved the girls & their mothers signing the letter as posted on Bethel’s site and Bethel agreeing to contribute donations on behalf the girls medical expenses (and noted on fnet) which would of course be in no way an admission of responsibility.
The Judge, naturally with both parties having reached an agreement would dismiss the case on its merits and the plaintiffs would not be able to refile. It’s over unless the Plantiffs chose to appeal the decision to a Higher Court, but this seems unlikely since it appears this was a mutually agreed upon outcome….which we will never know for sure since it is sealed. Case closed.
But the truth is known to Jesus and He’s dealing with the hearts involved and He’s long-suffering and patient and waits….Nothing is hidden from Him.
O'Dan...Thank you for your amazing depth of information. I haven't crossed paths with you very much, but when you post...I read slower...just to make sure I don't miss something interesting...
My prayer as stated over and over and over...is that those hearts who know Jesus as their First Love, their Only True Love...will find a way to ensure that He is Lord of all aspects of the ministry within EN. Especially, within each leader's heart. Then what a wondrous work indeed will be done by Jesus...when He leads...and we all just humbly follow...as Servants of Christ Our Lord. (Yes, I do believe in miracles...so why not pray for this one? I am.) |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1355
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.234.108.217
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 7:48 am: |
|
Note that BWOC put its own "spin" on the letter in its introduction, so it's not just truthseeker or other BWOC posters here who are doing this. BWOC states among other things that (1) the original case had no substance (2) that the ministry and its integrity were "vindicated and upheld" (3) and that they went through the legal process to bring the truth to light.
Going through TRIAL is the full legal process in the United States whereby truth is brought to light. This didn't go through trial, and the case documents were sealed. So the truth isn't brought to light here but instead is sealed within the Davidson County Circuit Court Clerk's office.
BTW, I do believe that the leaders of EN have "sincere beliefs" but based on my research, observation, and experience, whether they are a "positive influence on the world" or are truly "motivated by the spirit of Christ" is still up for debate, imho, based on 30+ years of history, despite what anyone signed or notarized. In fact, one might say that the way this was posted, WITH ADDITIONAL COMMENT COMPLETELY DISCREDITING THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED was not done in the "spirit of Christ" but the spirit of revenge.
I could say more but that wouldn't be out of the spirit of Christ either but a spirit of RAGE and INDIGNATION. And not because EN, BWOC, et al "won." I could care less if they won or lost. What I DO care about are the decades of human wreckage they have left in their wake. I fortunately moved out of the way before the juggernaut totally ran me over but many of us here can't say the same for themselves or for their loved ones. Though perhaps that is the spirit of Christ in me because He loves all His precious children.
(Message edited by ulyankee on February 08, 2007)
(Message edited by ulyankee on February 08, 2007) |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 74
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 8:04 am: |
|
It would not be appropriate for my attorney or I to formally comment on the case through wikepedia. Sorry. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 582
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.31.155
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 8:15 am: |
|
No need to apologize, Fully understood. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1192
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 8:43 am: |
|
Sometimes part of a "settlement" is to lie and/or cover and/or keep things secret and/or recant. This is reality. The legal system of personal litigation is NOT the justice system.
Most likely, Bartoc is NOT able to talk (and I'm guessing here), for if she does, she will be fined a large sum of money. This is how it works. However, BWOC probably had no such clause and were free to speak. This part is the shocking part.
I had always guessed the law suit would be settled out of court. But, I would NEVER have believed such a letter would be posted world wide and with names. I think this puts the girls and the families in danger and is just simply WRONG!
I was listening to the news about the craziness of San Francisco and the commentator said: ALL compassion, NO Discipline. I thought immediatley of Every Nation IMO being the opposite. All discipline, No compassion. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1829
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:36 am: |
|
Here is the funny part, If Bethel, Rice and all is NOT guilty, why would they pay ? it is just not soooo Bethel and their gang of thugs. My guess is they only settle because they are guilty. Sealed the document, put a confidentiality agreement on bartoc to shut her up.
Then Post that document on the website for PR reason. But no confidentiality agreement of bethel part ? this whole thing is a STAGE ! They planned this all along. This is all DAMAGE CONTROL. From what happened a year ago.
If there is nothing to hide on Bethel part, There would be NO confidentiality agreement AND those Document would not have been SEALED.
Basically, its pay them, hide this, shut her up then WE (Bethel) has the last word about this. Then post it on FACTNET so everybody can see what really happened the Bethel way. And they wonder why people are leaving their church. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1830
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:59 am: |
|
Ohh here is another thing, remember the Ad Hoc Committee ? How they spin the story ? But this time, Bethel think they are safe, Since they pay them, Document sealed, shut her up, then spin the story.
They can't do that with the Ad Hoc Committee, they can't pay them, sealed no document and shut them up.
So Bethel took advantage of the situation. And do it all over again.
History basically just repeated itself. An old tactic of MCM.
Thanks for Ulyankee research and posting. Its very clear that they NEVER DID CHANGE. Even the way they handle this. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1356
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:53 am: |
|
One more thing. Much is being made of the assertion that the plaintiffs made statements under oath which were not consistent with statements made not under oath.
But what about the defendants? Every Nation? Victory Clubs? Rice Broocks (back when he was a defendant)? What did they say under oath? Anything?
quote:Bethel, as well as its pastoral staff, and Every Nation and Victory Clubs consistently and vigorously denied that the accusations in the legal complaint had any substance in so far as Bethel and its pastors, Every Nation, and Victory Clubs were concerned
Were these consistent and vigorous denials made under oath? Under deposition? Under crossexamination?
Some of you, do you even know what the truth is anymore? Do you have a conscience any more, or has it been seared into oblivion? Does your word or your oath mean anything anyway?
I'm fairly confident none of the parties can or will answer these for sure. These are rhetorical questions only. But given the history running through the present day I think very good rhetorical questions. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1832
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 11:17 am: |
|
ohhh, here is a thought. Insurance and Scam does not go hand in hand. If this is a scam, insurance can see that and THEY WOULD NOT PAY. Whether paying for "medical expense" or Settlement. INSURANCE WOULD NOT PAY unless Bethel is guilty of Wrongdoing.
Bethel has so many inconsistencies with what they released. It is more looking like a Quickfix for PR.
I would doubt that document is even real.
first it is supposed to be Sealed and yet they released the document
second they said its to scam the insurance companies and yet the insurance companies paid.
Insurance and Scam don't go hand in hand. They would not have paid.
(Message edited by ginger1 on February 08, 2007) |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1833
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 11:50 am: |
|
Osakadan and Blueboy, I think it is safe to send letter to highs schools to warn them about EN in general. Now reading between the lines, thanks for Truthseeker posting about the insurance and scams.
Even if it is for Medical Expense, Its an acknowledgement that THIS DID HAPPENED. The document that Bethel released, there is a possibility it is FORGED or A FAKE.
Gosh , it took only a day to figure this whole thing out . Unlike before it takes months and years.
Can somebody put an entry on Wikipedia ? |
coppertree
Senior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 4.229.144.181
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 12:03 pm: |
|
Hi All Catching up,
Thank you Bartoc , for your information, . I can't imagine all the hell you went through. I am so sorry for what , you and your daughter and the other parents and their daughter had to endue.
I believe that you have been vindicated, as the Bethel paid to settle, rather than continue in the court. The documents were sealed. If there were not things to hide from the public why would it sealed ? It can't not be concluded, in my opinion, that court proceedings , complaint, etc. were sealed to protect the minors. As they and their parents were outed for all to see on En internet web site.
Hi X-man, I posted a little earlier here, about with prejudice. It means that as the case was dismissed by both parties, in settlement either side can not bring, it up again under the same legal grounds that began the action. Bactoc and her side can't sue again under the same complaint argument.} |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1837
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 1:46 pm: |
|
Coppertree, If this was sealed to "protect the minor" it looked like Bethel just unsealed it by posting their names. I may believe thats Bartoc intent, thats why she may agreed to have it sealed. But for Bethel and Rice ? I highly doubt it. They already made the names public. So that shows they do not care about the minors nor the parties involved. Bethel and Rice wants it sealed because they have something to hide.
Here how I see it the Bethel and Rice way.
Exposed Bartoc but don't exposed Bethel and Rice.
Exposed whatever bartoc is hiding, if there is really anything to hide, which I doubt it.
But do not exposed Bethel and Rice and whatever they are hiding.
If Rice and Bethel are really , really honest. They would have been TRANSPARENT on their side and tell what are the things that are sealed that BARTOC is NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT.
And that Document, I strongly believe is a FAKE. Usually a document will have a REAL Signature and A real NOTARY on it. With a real Notary, it becomes a public record. This can be back up with a public record. Instead only a copy was posted on Bethel website. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1357
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 2:22 pm: |
|
Actually, just because something is notarized doesn't make it public record. It just means that it has been witnessed by a notary public. But you are right in saying that unless you see the notarized document with the notary's signature and seal, you don't know if it's really a true notarized document. Now if BWOC had scanned the original document and posted a PDF or something like that, showing the notary's signature and stamp as well as those of the signatories, that might be a bit more reliable, though even that could be forged with the magic of Photoshop.
(Message edited by ulyankee on February 08, 2007) |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2805
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 2:45 pm: |
|
My question to truthseeker is this: Do you think Bethel has a good understanding of the deep spiritual principles that Jesus taught?
Forgive 70 times 7.
Turn the other cheek.
He remained silent in front of his accusers.
Put aside what is in the document. Why was it so vital for Bethel to print all of that information? Reputation? (Jesus didn't worry about that, in fact he railed against public religious displays of reputation). If He doesn't need His 'rep' defended, one can only draw the conclusion that Bethel has a 'rep' it needs to defend.
If you are of God, that front page letter would be totally unnecessary; you don't have anything to defend, except Christ crucified. And your leaders would have realized that it goes against the very teachings of Christ.
30 year guy here, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, I can spot religious bull hockey when I see it.
Where did you go? Did your shepherd catch you? |
freedom43
Intermediate Member
Username: freedom43
Post Number: 393
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 129.33.119.12
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 3:11 pm: |
|
Just catching up, and I have to say I agree with Ulyankee's post number 1355.
"Sincere beliefs" and "majority of members" leaves a lot of room for reading between the lines and for minority members who are not model citizens. I'm sure Jim Jones (not our beloved but the Guyana cult leader who led his congregation in mass suicide) had sincere beliefs.
I can only hope that the current EN has grown from its MCM roots. But in my 12 years in MCM, I can say that I was encouraged and felt pressured to fast for up to 3 to 5 days at a time on a regular basis. I was encouraged to drink water only -- and "Healthy fruits juices" if I really couldn't manage on water alone. But, that was not really encouraged. (Oh, I remember the headaches and how hard it was to function on water alone.) Also, I remember psychiatry being snubbed and mental illness (or sickness of any kind) as being attributed to the devil, and that God was the Great Psychiatrist.
In short, I don't care what the limited statement posted on Bethel's website says. Even if no one said directly to the girls PERSONALLY that they had to fast or "quit taking your pills now," I know what the messaging and pressure is like. We all do, come on. Plus, we were expected to live with and spend time with our fellow MCM members. It was like living under a microscope. Trust me, they would have seen me if I tried to sneak a snicker's bar.
I just exchanged e-mails with my smart lawyer friend who spent some time in TN. She says "With prejudice means that they cannot change their mind and bring the case again at any time and in any court. It is basically like settling, though it does not appear from the public information that the cults gave the plaintiffs anything."
When I told her about the "benevolent contribution" for medical expenses, she said "So basically it’s a spin on a legal settlement." She's a smart one. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:08 pm: |
|
Freedom, good for bringing it back to the issue.
DO the ALLEGED charges against EN surprise anyone or do they FIT RIGHT in and are characterisitc of a 30 year history of grievances? |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:25 pm: |
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quote:Can somebody put an entry on Wikipedia ?
My advice: Let one of the PR folks at EN do it if they are so inclined. Just in case they're digging a hole, I certainly wouldn't want to be holding the shovel. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.190.15.25
| | Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 5:14 am: |
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Ginger said: INSURANCE WOULD NOT PAY unless Bethel is guilty of Wrongdoing.
40: actually that is not true, now I don't know if EN's insurance company is going to be paying a settlement but it is fairly common for insurance companies to press for settlements even when the policy holder wants to fight. It happens all the time in malpractice suits. Doctors want to fight and say I am innocent but the insurance company does not want to take the risk of going to court.
I kind of understand upper EN leadership here I too would be saying what the heck? We do not endorse anybody overseeing kids telling them to fast, this is an isolated incident blah, blah, blah. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1841
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 8:55 am: |
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It is true that settlement is cheaper. And they would rather go for that, but Truthseeker claimed its a SCAM. If its a SCAM, No insurance company will be paying. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1843
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:56 am: |
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Just a thought, since EN is still receiving tithes worldwide and posting the document on Bethel site. Is Bethel hoping to restore the churches trust , so they would keep giving their tithes ?
We know people are leaving, so $$$ are soon to be gone. To keep the money flowing, they have to rely on churches overseas to keep them afloat ? particularly Rice ? I do wonder where is his salary coming from , Is it still from Worldwide tithes ? because it does makes sense to post that document. Especially if its a Fake.
Also in regards to the Notary, one can visit the Notary office and double check if those plaintiff really signed that document. I want to know which notary public they went . They should have a record of it. There are enough people that left Bethel , and can double check if that document is real. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1844
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:58 am: |
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Money has always been the driving force of this ministry not the Holy Spirit. Just looking for the money trail... |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2821
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:52 am: |
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quote:Forward: Now, from my vantage, I know I felt pushed aside as a parent, I'm trying to imagine not being a Christian or a member of Bethel, how I might feel violated, feeling like the church was driving a wedge between me and my child.
Forward, this is very insightful. This culture existed almost 30 years ago, and as a young, naive and STUPID pastor of MCM, I recall an incident that speaks to this...we had a young lady, a 'new convert' whose father was more than concerned for her. It became a 'him against us' thing, and he became to be viewed as the 'enemy'. This type of thing was not unique to Auburn University.
We had a 'members only' meeting (how disturbing does that sound now) after one of those many outreach meetings one night, and he showed up. Being the immature person I was, I just told every one that we would meet at another time. It was understood by all that the 'enemy' was in the room. Do you think the red lights were flashing in that dad's mind? Duh.
I am now in a position almost similar to yours, my son is younger, but I can tell you, I will CAMP at an EN or similar ministry venue if they get their hooks into my son when he goes off to college!!!
What an idiot I was, and part of my reason for being here is to warn others to GET OUT and away from the dysfuctional spawn of MCM.
Truthseeker, would welcome your comments. Your disappearance has been like clockwork with past EN housewives. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1199
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 208.48.15.2
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 11:08 am: |
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Matt,
A good church that understands the POWER OF LOVE, not the POWER OF GROUP THINK, and would teach and encourage people to love one another and repair or develop good relationships and concentrate on their own heart, not POLICING the spiritual state of their friends and family.
Truthseeker couldn't answer some of the tough questions. She threw out her libelous statements and ran away. She appears to have purposefully come in to give the link to the letter. She wanted to gloat for EN's triumph, which was NOT a real win for anyone, except maybe the defendant's lawyer!
I find her words for Bartoc cold, dishonest, purposely contrived. They framed Barton as the "enemy" of God. This is immature and has that tar and feather mentality. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1850
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 12:09 pm: |
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I think Truthseeker run because Bartoc gave a short and a very interesting statement. Without breaking the confidentiality agreement. I think Truthseeker might get in trouble for making a false statement about the Plaintiff for SCAM. Probably thats why she has to RUN.
Second of all I was listening to a preacher yesterday, VERY Interesting . About Prisoners and Slaves. How much they are in common, When people went to prison for years , the guards made the decision for them, when to eat, when to take shower, when to sleep. Once they got out, they can't decide , a lot of them would commit a crime just to get back to prison, because its comfortable. Their decision maker in them is broken. One of the testimony of a pastor a former prisoner said, when he came out and was in an airport, and he needed a car, he could not even decide which and what car. It took a while get that decision making back.
Same thing with Israel, when they left Egypt. They took all those money with them BUT THEY NEVER SPEND IT FOR THEMSELVES. The one thing they spend it is to build a Tabernacle for God.
This reminds me of all the people who got born again in my former church, those young people, no wonder a lot of them went backslidden. They never had the opportunity to make a decision to walk for God. Its always somebody put a PRESSURE on them. When Tony Fetchel and Phil Bonasso's daughter left, they can''t decide what to do, thats what I heard. when the whole thing fell.
Some went to other churches, and some backslidden, some people who were kick out during the reign of terror were backslidden.
I am now counseling a friend, who got born again during MCM. And left the church due to pressure to be good. She quickly backslidden when she left and it was a decision she made. She told me she can't keep up with the pressure of MCM. Its easier to do whatever she wants.
Anyway, I am talking to her several times in a week, counseling her, bringing her back. And I told her, its a decision she has to make. And whatever she decide, I will still be a friend. because this is between her and God . and I am not going to meddle with the Holy Spirit. And it does look like God is speaking to her daily.
(Message edited by ginger1 on February 10, 2007) |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2824
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:25 pm: |
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They framed Barton as the "enemy" of God.
Interesting isn't it? Doesn't it sound frightingly similar to the story I just shared from 30 years ago? Truthseeker, if you were seeking the truth, you might want to ponder this thread a bit. 30 years of the same old stuff.
Did it do your heart good to stand like Joan of Arc for EN? Do you understand that Christ doesn't need your defense, but I guess EN does, eh? Just askin'..... |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1858
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:46 pm: |
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Felicia’s fasts consisted of skipping solid foods but consuming fruit juices and other healthy beverages.
Lets all go on one of these types of fasts, no food. Dilly can do the aged fruit juice fast, Hatter can do the aged grain beverage fast. Healthy for the heart. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 4:32 pm: |
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Skipping solid food and drinking fruit juices and other healthy beverages won't make a person faint and end up several days in the hospital. People who went on a diet do this and are still healthy. because I also tried doing it too, lost some weight for several days. And guess what i did not faint. I am Still healthy as a horse.
The fact is that Felicia, FAINTED in CLASS . This happened publicly. They can several student to testify and teacher to testify that it happened.
Truthseeker assumption is getting more and more ridiculous by the days. And they, Rice and Bethel said they have change. This proves the more and more that Pastor Ray maccolum is right, its an ILLUSION OF PROGRESS.
By the way, question for Bethel leaders who bought the $700,000 homes. Where is your faith that you may able to pay the monthly mortgage ? You guys should stay in those $700,000 home BY FAITH. Like telling the kid to stop taking her medication by faith.
SO they moving out and selling their homes means these Bethel leaders, by their own doctrine ARE LACK OF FAITH ? |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1859
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 4:54 pm: |
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It said: The Plaintiffs agree to dismiss their claims against the Bethel Parties with prejudice such that those claims may never be brought again, and release the Bethel Parties from any responsibility for damages or injuries suffered by the Plaintiffs arising from or related to the events which are, or could have been, the subject of the lawsuit.
I don't know is'nt that kind of like Bethel admitting that they were guilty of something? |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 586
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.10.203
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 5:05 pm: |
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No, standard lawyer speak.
Just a suggestion - maybe we shouldn't use the girl's name. I know it is in the public arena but lets try and respect her privacy. |
truthseeker180359
New member
Username: truthseeker180359
Post Number: 19
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 89.100.99.209
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 7:13 pm: |
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I am still interested to hear if anyone is going to give serious consideration to the facts of this case.
It is really not too complicated. The original complaint detailed a long litany of accusations against Victory Clubs and Every Nation and Bethel. They turned out to be false. That means someone made then up,
Why would anyone do that? What good can possibly be achieved? Why wreck the life and carreer of a teacher who was doing her best to help these unfortunate kids?
Are the people who write on this board at any level serious about the answers to ths question?
It does not appear so - and yet in this way it really exposes a set of deeply disturbing double standards, Instead, they throw more dust into the air to try to cloud a simple issue of right and wrong. This is most disappointing.
If the girls and their parents lied in their legal complaint and subseqyently came clean in their letter to Bethel, then all those critics who were expecting this case to be the "cause celebre;to bring down Every Nation must be understansably upset.
But they should go the extra mile themselves and offer a written apology to Bethel and Every Nation - and a full vindication for the poor teacher who lost her job as a result of plain lies and unsubstabtiated falsehoods. She was villified in the NewsChannel 5 broadcast two nights in a row, It was the worst form of investigative journalism. Whatever the benevolent payment may have been made to the Plaintiffs for medical expenses - I pray that the NewsChannel 5 station and the girls lawyer are made to pay her a bundle. She would richly deserve it! |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 587
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.10.203
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:28 pm: |
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Spreading gossip again thruthseeker? Doing EN's work for them?
I feel sorry for the teacher if the accusations are true or false. No one should be subject to tabloid journalism. But the fact of the matter is, the case is sealed and there is no public record that the case was a fabrication or lies. Instead you continue the attack against the girls and parents. You should be ashamed. But at least we know the spin EN is putting on this.
Reread the letter. Nowhere is there an admission of anything. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:11 pm: |
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The only time TRUST can be restored to Bethel is when ALL of the DOCUMENT GET UNSEALED.
MCM, MSI and EN are known to show ONLY THEIR SIDE OF THE STORY. As bartoc said is correct . IT IS HALF TRUTH.
I would dare you to unseal EVERYTHING. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2828
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:27 pm: |
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And you too have failed to answer my question...why are you so willing to defend Bethel? As I have stated, Christ does not need your defense...also, can you not see the pattern of abuse from MCM to EN? How long have you been around? I am a former pastor for goodness sake! It was the worst relationship "church" I have ever been in, and that was everything before and since Maranatha. Please don't tell me EN is not Maranatha. That you are in her falling on your sword for them tells me different.
You too will get out one day. One way or the other, the cards will fall around you or internally. Save yourself the grief! Listen to that voice you hear when you lay your head on the pillow. It is true, God has something so much better for you! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1853
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:27 pm: |
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Truthseeker, Just wondering , did it ever occur to you why the people in BETHEL are leaving ? Why the church is falling apart ? Its lies and half truth. Its a game that EN has played for years and people are tired of it. There was never a time EN leaders would be totally honest with anything. Example. Tim Johnson was removed after a year or couple of year of pastoring JUST BECAUSE Rice Brookes GOT VOTED OUT OF NO CONFIDENCE. So he goes back to take the church away from Tim Johnson and announced that Tim Johnson is moving to Florida because it is God's will ?? You think anybody will believe that kind of CRAP ?
Tim Johnson just recently built a 10,000 square feet home, Do you think anybody would be happy and just go whenever Rice snap his fingers?
Rice really think he is an Apostle ? Tell him to go start making miracles, let me see how he is going to save those jobs in Bethel.
After all the bible said in
2 Corinthians 12:12
12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.
John the Baptist did not SHOWS ANY signs ,wonders and miracles. So we don't just follow anybody who shows signs ,wonders and miracles. BUT THIS IS GOD's WORD REQUIREMENT TO BE A REAL APOSTLE. OR do you guys have plans to LOWER GOD'S REQUIREMENT ? Etch that off God's Word.
You want people to start believing Bethel and Rice ? How about let's start by being TRANSPARENT WITH THE WHOLE THING. OPEN THE WHOLE SEALED DOCUMENT AND LET SEE WHAT YOU GUYS SIGNED. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1854
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:36 pm: |
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In Fact, if Bethel has nothing to hide why did they want this SEALED ?? You guys have signed something that you want it sealed. You do not want anybody to see. I do not believe bartoc would want it selaed, she was transparent from the very beginning, even what we got from the media.
In fact you guys have been pushing this lawsuit be thrown out from the very beginning, why ? because you guys have something to hide. and who's idea is it that these be sealed ? Bartoc and the Plaintiff ? No, because you posted that document. ITS YOU GUYS IDEA THAT YOU WANT IT SEALED. Because you have something to hide.
by the way, when this church folded ? what will be your excuse ? ahh, its the devil's fault ? |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 588
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.10.203
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:49 pm: |
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Ginger, please be careful. You are speculatiing En wanted the case sealed. It may well have been the court's decision because of the girls' ages. |
coppertree
Senior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 1172
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 4.229.201.95
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:51 pm: |
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Hi All Catching up,
Hi T.Seeker
Can I ask you, as you have asked us questions to define with documents, were you said falsehood has occurred. Please prove your case, or people could believe that slander has happened, and is continuing to damage those girls and their parents here on fact net } |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1201
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 208.48.15.2
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 11:56 pm: |
|
Truthseeker
I don't think anyone here has ever disrespected or BLAMED the teacher. As I said before, she was probably just believing she was really helping someone, and the theology of "help" is in question in a religious system of control and formulas.
Most of the posters here served in leadership or as pastors and know the SYSTEM. We are not mere outsiders making guessing games about the methods and tactics of Every Nation.
If the teacher was part of a system of control and WRONGLY lost her job, she needs to take that up with the NEWS STATION and the SCHOOL BOARD. No one here fired her, and no one here would wish her any harm.
Most likely the teacher is a victim herself, and probably a really nice gal. It could have easily been me in that lawsuit, being overzealous, and believing I was helping someone who needed some help. People can be well-meaning and wrong at the same time and I think that applies to many at EN. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2838
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 12:58 am: |
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Amen dust, we had a member of our music group in Auburn who was a music teacher at the Jr High. Fine young person, problem was, she was a kool aid drinker like the rest of us. She spent a ton of time trying to get her students to come to our meetings instead of teaching. She was fired outright for being a bad teacher, because she was not doing what she was hired to do, TEACH MUSIC! Of course, it was all persecution for the sake of the gospel to us back then.
She should have done the job she was hired to do. It was more MCM's fault for her losing her job than the school's. SHE LOST HER JOB BECAUSE SHE WAS A VICTIM OF A MIND CONTROLLING CULT, THAT PLANTED THIS UNCONTROLLABLE URGE IN HER TO "EVANGELIZE" NOT FOR CHRIST, BUT FOR MCM.
I feel nothing but sorrow for this current teacher, and also for you t.seeker. You will get out, believe me, unless of course you are tied to it by salary. Has this thought ever crossed your mind...the only ones who seem to have bought into this lifetime covenant thing with one another are the ones who are making the $$$$? The rank and file come...and go. And yes, I am purposely planting seeds of doubt in your mind. Anything I can do to help see another one free. Come back to factnet when it happens? I will rejoice with you!! |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 393
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 63.83.195.194
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 2:57 am: |
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Hi Again, Truthseeker…I like your name, I’ve always been a bit on the plain speaking truth side myself (sometimes truth is a sharp two-edged sword, I’ve cut myself and friends with it a time or two). I suppose that’s why I’m drawn back to respond to you when this is a matter I’ve not actively sought to delve into…except to pray deeply for all those involved. You asked a couple of questions
quote:I am still interested to hear if anyone is going to give serious consideration to the facts of this case. It is really not too complicated. The original complaint detailed a long litany of accusations against Victory Clubs and Every Nation and Bethel. They turned out to be false. That means someone made then up,
Actually, I think it’s quite possible for their original complaint and for the literal statement of the letter to be true (see my earlier post). But, to me that’s not the point. It’s showing the love of Christ to the world, showing the compassion of Jesus in the darkness, speaking in kindness and mercy….offering a helping hand and hope…. As you said..it is not complicated at all. It’s about valuing the individual Soul and the Lordship of Jesus…worrying about the person instead of the ministry finding the one lost sheep instead of worrying about building the barn to house the flock for the those from a country thousands of miles away…it’s about showing Jesus to the person next door as well as in Every Nation on the globe.
TS you also asked
quote:Why would anyone do that? What good can possibly be achieved? Why wreck the life and carreer of a teacher who was doing her best to help these unfortunate kids?
I am not familiar with EN or Bethel (although I’ve started looking at some web sites), so as a mostly unbiased (really) individual: Why did the parents feel such a level of frustration that the news media became aware of the matter? Why would the Bethel/EN allow the teacher to become a sacrificial lamb instead of supporting her fully and/or mediating or mitigating this matter?
I served on a jury once in which a homeless man brought a lawsuit against a Church. I was not happy about the Church’s role even though the homeless man’s case seemed a bit of a stretch. Why wasn’t I happy? Because the Church had the responsibility to be Jesus and in many respects how their attorney addressed the issue did nothing to further the Gospel of Christ. After the case was settled. I sought out the minister, introduced myself as a Believer and asked why & how it had come to that point. I was relieved to discover a list of options that the Church had actively and humbly pursued before the lawsuit had been filed. In fact, they were still continuing to reach out to the homeless man in spite of the lawsuit…regardless of the outcome and had no intention of losing track of him.
Their attitude was entirely different to the one that I’ve read on the Bethel web site or seen in the tone of your posts. Although, perhaps I’ve misread or misunderstood it…since I have not followed this case…but where’s the concern for those young girls? Or those souls in their families or neighbors who do not know the love of Christ yet and now only see a harsh unfeeling social club instead of concerned Church who rushed to assist children in their care? What type of Savior does that present to the world? A Savior who judges based on the neighborhood you live in?
(Sorry I've gotta just a bit more to say....) |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 394
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 63.83.195.194
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 3:28 am: |
|
And the last question that you asked, TS, that I had some thoughts on
quote:Are the people who write on this board at any level serious about the answers to this question?
Yes, You have to know they are...surely you've read enough of their words by now. They've opened their hearts to you...Hatter, Dust, Ginger to name just the most recent... And,I am very serious…I place the name of Jesus above all…I place His Truth, His Honor, His Love…above my loyalty to my friends, to my family, to those that I’ve met on this board, to any Church or any ministry that I’ve ever known or been a part of … Jesus is Lord…I will not compromise Him. I have done that before and in doing so, it endangers all else that I hold dear and precious…especially my brothers and sisters in Christ.
The easiest thing in the world for Bethel/EN/Victory Clubs to have done would have been to say, oops, forgive us…perhaps there was a problem. We wish to be like Jesus. We intended no harm and in a hundreds of thousands of other teenagers this type of misunderstanding had never ever happened….but somehow it did here and now we know it can happen and so we will fix it. By the Grace of God, no one died & the problem is known. We will stand with you and help you & your children. And in turn you will help us correct our program and ensure that this can never happen to another child. We are a family serving God together.
Now, if that had been said…at the very beginning and help offered…what a wondrous witness for the Love of Jesus in the Community…what a wondrous healing for those involved… And none of us would be typing here now. How much better that would have been for the girls, for their Teacher, for their families, for the Victory Clubs, and for Bethel/EN. Perhaps, that path still remains open… With God Nothing is Impossible.
Even at worst...if it was as you might think...a lie...or a scam...think on this: The Amish are caring for the family of the man who actually murdered their children...Now that's a witness for the Love of Jesus Christ and the Redeeming Power of God's Mercy...that lifts a Light High for Every Soul in Every Nation to See.
Truthseeker...I pray you find what you seek. Truly. And I continue to pray for all hearts involved that Jesus will heal and wipe away all tears. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 589
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.7.148
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 3:51 am: |
|
Thank you for a very considered and conciliatory post Wildwood. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1862
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.147.95.162
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 6:45 am: |
|
Hi truthseeker, I really think you are delusional. Look this thing has been sealed just like a multitude of lawsuits going back to MCM times. About the only thing you can rest your head on is that Bartoc said there are some sincere people in EN. Big deal everybody here posting has pretty much conceded that except for maybe an AF here or there. I do not see how you can say this vindicates EN. Look there were people who may have settled, their kids are o.k today but???? how you do the rest of your math seems suspect. It does not mean EN is innocent. Lawyers get tired, insurance companies want to pay off rather then take a risk, who knows what the true story is but one thing is true. Somebody felt hurt enough to sue EN. |
lc_20
Advanced Member
Username: lc_20
Post Number: 756
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.12.116.76
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:23 am: |
|
It sounds like EN is doing their story twisting again. We have all bought into it at different times. I can't tell you how many times I had to hear history being told in a way I knew it didn't happen before I realized that this story twisting was for the purpose of bringing glory to EN and not God. I believe, over time, TS will hear enough stories with their history modified from what he knows to be true over time, that he will come to understand what you are all trying to tell him. Then he will have to make a choice. Does he live his life to glorify EN or to glorify God. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2842
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:24 am: |
|
T.S., please read Wildwood's posts several times. The words are spoken from one of the most humble saints I have come across in my walk with Christ. I stand challenged by her words...praying that you will be too. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2843
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:32 am: |
|
over time, TS will hear enough stories with their history modified from what he knows to be true over time, that he will come to understand what you are all trying to tell him.
Wow, LC, this is so true. It becomes like a haunting that keeps you awake at night, in the deep recesses of your soul, you know that the spin didn't happen that way.
A friend of mine who stayed in MCM much longer than I shared a mutual friend who became one of the big three in EN. He told me after he and his wife finally got out that this man would share "victory" stories from his early days as a christian that were simply so modified from the truth that they could not be called anything but a lie. How did my friend know? He (and I) was there growing up with him. No need for a name, y'all all know who it is. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2844
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:56 am: |
|
Interesting...the front page of EN's web site, under the recently added section, has this:
Q: I have read accusations that Every Nation is a continuation of Maranatha, is this true?
While the answer is fallacious in my opinion, why do they see it necessary to even address this? Especially on the slick front page. Whenever I read something like this, I always am reminded of a kid telling his mom, "Oh Ma, I didn't get in the cookie jar, just thought I would let you know." |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 75
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:57 am: |
|
Appropo of nothing, I feel the need to defend my religious feelings as I believe the media has misrepresented them. Although I doubt it has any bearing to attitudes of anyone, but my Christian pride is offended. Odd statement...Christian pride. LOL
I am a baptized Christian with very strong belief in God that is reflected in my personality and daily life (or at least I try and hope so).
Being raised in a Christian school, and during my time as an adult I have encountered a number of challenges and difficulties with organized religion. This has led me to MY chosen lifestyle of practicing my belief and praying to God and his Son on my own time, and in my own manner with the Holy Bible as my guide. Unfortunately when the newspaper call me for the story, the author of the article was not clear on stating my beliefs and took only half of what I said in response to her question. This leds to speculation as to how a non-believer or non - Christian might view this issue. Fortunately there were no disbelievers involved.
I raised my children to be Christian and have held every door open for them to join organized religion if they feel the need for fellowship to bolster their belief and to be held accountable by a third party: thus my daughter’s relationship with Bethel.
Again, I realize that no one really cares but I wanted to clear up that misperception. I have not taken issue with it in the past as I felt no need to defend my beliefs; however leaving this half-truth out there has bothered me long enough.
God Bless All,
Bartoc |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 590
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.7.148
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 9:04 am: |
|
Thank you for Bartoc. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1855
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 11:38 am: |
|
Thank you for your response Bartoc, because I was told that you are a Jew who does not like her daughter getting born again. This is coming from the Asian EN Board. Which I spoke to them personally. |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 12:34 pm: |
|
Nope..not Jewish and not a born again hater. |
yeahihearya
Member
Username: yeahihearya
Post Number: 81
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 69.130.96.185
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 2:37 am: |
|
While still 'envolved' with EN/MSI I attended a morning prayer meeting where I met the young lady that was the cell group leader of bartoc's daughter. I had for a year at that point had alot of mixed feelings about EN/MSI & was coming to the understanding of the truth of it all. I think self doubt kept me in as long as I stayed after seeing all the 'wrong' in EN/MSI. TRUTHSEEKER you should read one of the threads regaurding the tactics of EN/MSI.....about how soulish it is to want to 'catch' people with destiny......can someone remember that thread?? It put into words what I felt in my spirit from the begining. But, back on this cell group leader, like DUST said.....she seemed to be someone that genuinely loved the Lord & wanted to serve him. This doesn't mean that as we all seek to do the same that we don't hurt people along the way. I don't know this lady personally, only from meeting her once....and she didn't seem mean spirited. I am saying this as a point......none of us on this board can really speak for either side in this issue & that is why I refer to WILDWOOD's posting......now that is the most humble way to put both sides at peace, if you just read what he/she said a few times...to let it really sink in. Thx for that posting WILDWOOD!!
Blessings 2 all & I sure hope your baby is doing ok Ms. Bartoc! |
yeahihearya
Member
Username: yeahihearya
Post Number: 82
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 69.130.96.185
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 2:46 am: |
|
Just 2 clearify, basically all is speculation except Bartoc...of course...but she's not talking! 
I thought about commenting before ending this post that there ya go...EN controlling someone else again....but I want I'll just leave it at that! HAHAHAHAHHAHAAHA |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 598
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.7.148
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 3:41 am: |
|
I am glad you posted yeahihearya. I doubt many believe that the teacher concerned meant any harm at all and was doing/saying what she felt called to do. But unfortunately, an innocent person was caught up in all of this. |
anti_fascist
Intermediate Member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 144
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.113
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 6:08 am: |
|
Important illustration here, why teachers should not be allowed to do anything but teach their subject to students, and refrain from all religious education while doing so, even in faith based schools.
This is why American public schools did away with prayer in the classroom etc, and it can only be a good thing.
This link here has nothing to do with EN, but I'm sure EN agrees with the teacher here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID_CXC2Zkuw&eurl= |
speakword2004
Senior Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 7:05 am: |
|
As a former teacher I believe that it is not possible to exclude one's value systemn from you vocation. I for one, do not want a teacher telling my 5 year old that abortion is morally acceptable.
AF you live in a dream world if you do not think secular humanism is a religion in itself. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 599
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.7.148
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 7:28 am: |
|
Really! Isn't that a little bit alarmist speakword? Where is the evidence that a teacher has ever told a 5 year old that abortion is morally acceptable? And yes there are plenty of us aetheist teachers out there educating your precious little things. Get real! |
anti_fascist
Intermediate Member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.113
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 8:14 am: |
|
The problem is that 5 year olds shouldn't be confronted with issues such as abortion as they are not ready for it. It is like exposing them to pornography.
But, alas, the Religious right thinks nothing of exposing kids to pornography (abortion debates) and extreme violence (Passion movie etc), and then have the dishonesty to claim that secularists are the guilty ones;
Speakword, I'm comforted that you are no longer teaching kids. |
yeahihearya
Member
Username: yeahihearya
Post Number: 83
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 69.130.96.185
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 9:34 pm: |
|
OK...so I know osakadan is not christian. Antifascist....you are not either are you? I find both of your posts very interesting.....and what i find really interesting is the plat form that you both have here in speaking....the credibility some of the other christians give you guys......your perspectives are not shared with christian believers.....as a follower of Christ morality & ethics impermiate our being....we believe that if you do not follow christ your eternally lost & of coarse we, as believers, want to sure Christ with you in some way...so a true believer will want to share Christ with a co-worker or a child or a patient/client,ect.......but the breech is when the individual doesn't want to be 'approached, or spoken to on the issues & a believer pushes it or gets wierd with it"......& Osakadan.....can you grow up with your responses to people, one can discuss & debate issues here but you retaliate & become obtruse.....be nice & grow up |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 602
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 218.130.221.129
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 5:09 am: |
|
Firstly, wank off yeahihearya. Is that grown up enough for you?
While I may have nothing in common with you, there are things I have in common with many christians I know. And perhaps even some at this site.
Why dont you point out exactly where I was being childish? Is it upset that I called someone out on how they suggest the girls and their parents are lying?
Or that it seems like that there seems to be an agenda from a few EN people to spread lies and inuendo about the case?
(Message edited by osakadan on February 13, 2007) |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 603
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 218.130.221.129
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 5:16 am: |
|
as a follower of Christ morality & ethics impermiate our being. And the word is permiate by the way...but pointing that out would be getting childish.
That is where you show your immaturity. Morality and ethics are not the territory of christians alone. You should pray for for your prideful spirit. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 604
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 218.130.221.129
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 5:26 am: |
|
so a true believer will want to share Christ with a co-worker or a child or a patient/client,ect.......but the breech is when the individual doesn't want to be 'approached, or spoken to on the issues & a believer pushes it or gets wierd with it
I fully understand those primal urges you have. I had them myself when I was in MCM. BUT the thing is, you just need to curb those urges in your place of employment or you may well be breaking the law. I have seen christian teachers almost FORCE teenage students to attend church services and let me tell you, it is not an equal discussion and it is totally wrong.
You know, there are people here who atract me to christianity, but not anyone like you. It is those that show compassion, those that do not feel the need to force their beliefs do my throat but show it in how they act, those that have the humility to admit when they have overstepped the mark someway but are humble enough to apologize. Those are the christians I respect.
And so let me get childish again, wank off yeahihearya. It has been a long day and I have been vomiting after another treatment of radiation therapy and I have no patience for pricks like you. |
speakword2004
Senior Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 1121
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 6:44 am: |
|
Anti Fascist
I would never expose a child to the depravity you claim. So, you no know nothing about me and what I believe or my experiences. Your tactic at attacking my personal integrity is going to bite you in the •••.
My point was to defend the innocence of little children from the likes of both you and other religious nuts who would expose them to the trash that you promote. A secular humaist environment such as currently to be found in S African schools does not shiled my innocent child from the vast array or "pornographic" junk that seeks to assault his senses. As his parent I am his shield and protector.
So far, you have done little to portray the humanism you so worship. Ther has been nothing kind or gentle or helpful from your side of the fence. You have encouraged, helped and enlightened no one here.
You have shown no respect to me after I took the time to respect you. Ask you questions and personally introduce myself.
Instead we have your weekly rant of conspiracy and hate filled attack at anyone in spitting distance. There is no logic and certainly no evidence towards what you have to say.
Methinks you are one of those bitter twisted people that EN and HP like to hoist as one of their trophies of opposition. Your type of combat makes an EN leader very happy.
Empty vessels make the loudest noise and that is all you have done here for the last 4 weeks.
Clang!
Dong!
Ding!
3 strikes your'e out and I for one ain't talking to you anymore.
Jason Coates
My guess is that you are here to bait people. You have no desire to network, no desire to assist your fellow man that is in any way manifest on this forum.
Y |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 77
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 8:48 am: |
|
Truth,
Review your post of 2/7 and 2/10 and then reread your own post of this morning. Does this not sound familar? Should we not look to the plank in our own eye first??
Keep the Faith,
Bartoc |
bartoc
Member
Username: bartoc
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.137.97.234
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 8:53 am: |
|
Radiation Osakadan? Well you are specifially added to my daily prayers...hope that you feel better!
Keep the Faith,
Bartoc |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 618
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.7.148
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:01 am: |
|
Dear Bartoc,
Please take comfort in the fact that many of us here understand what you and your family have been through. Though we may not know the exact details of the case, it resonates with all we know has gone on in the past.
It is sad that some EN members have to come here and attack you and the girls rather than seek to heal the hurt that occured. But please stand tall in the knowledge that the truth will come through despit the spin that EN tries to put on the settlement.
Sincerely,
Dan |
anti_fascist
Intermediate Member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 152
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.113
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:02 am: |
|
Dear Speakword,
Now,I understand your problem. You are vexed that A-F, hasn't yet come back to you off line.
I understand, but as said off line, I'm abroad on assignment, and I would have preferred to see you in person in Jo-burg.
But, now you've revealed quite a dark side to your personality on this thread and the one 40/40 created for A-F.
So, I'll just say hamba gashe or tsamaya hantle monghadi Coates.(that is make good way in Xhosa and Sesotho) I really do not think you would like to network with A-F who you are convinced is going to poison your child's mind. I hope that you may one day learn the godly virtues of patience and tolerance.
Maybe you will have to home school your little precious? Then he will be totally unequiped to live in our society which is certainly not perfect. Maybe he will thank you for your efforts by hating God and religion... |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2868
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:02 pm: |
|
Maybe you will have to home school your little precious?
It is this kind of vicious sarcasm that you take to a personal level that reeks of an elitism that many of us detect about you. I am not a real fan of homeschooling, but would defend any parents right to do it, as there is a much deeper relationship between parent and child than parent and state.
My question is this...just why are you here? You sound to me to be one of those folks in Acts 17 who loved to gather at the Hill of Ares "to spend their time in nothing than telling others or hearing something new."
At least O-dan shares a commonality with many in the fact that he was involved in this false gospel. An even though he and I may disagree in many areas, we have developed a friendship, share emails, pictures of our pets, etc.
You are someone who I just don't think I could do that with. There is an elistism about you that does not make me want to read your posts any longer.
This is a forum to help people who have been involved in a brutal false gospel. While you are welcome to post here, your presence has added little to this goal.
BTW, Speak is also a friend of mine, someone who I respect, a man who seems to have a deep love for his son, and someone who has been a blessing to me as I too am raising a son. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 730
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.211.122.182
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:22 pm: |
|
quote:A-F: Maybe you will have to home school your little precious? Then he will be totally unequiped to live in our society which is certainly not perfect. Maybe he will thank you for your efforts by hating God and religion...
I'd reiterate what Mattie says above and simply add that you obviously don't know too many home educated children. Both my daughters have been home educated. One is now 20, a sophomore in College with a 3.92 GPA. The other will be graduating at 16 this year and will be going to college. Both are viewed as two of the most well-adjusted, capable and responsible individuals most adults meet. They are able to interact with people of all ages and backgrounds rather than stand around and be sullen like most teenagers. They handle money well, they keep their commitments and they don't drink or do drugs. My goodness, they sound like they've got exactly what's needed to live in our society today. |
iamspartacus
New member
Username: iamspartacus
Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2007
Posted From: 58.69.228.185
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 5:58 pm: |
|
Dan, sorry to hear you are having health problems. You will be in our prayers. Even if your faith does not lean that way then please receive it as caring concern. IAS
(Message edited by iamspartacus on February 13, 2007) |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1206
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 6:10 pm: |
|
Hatter: There is an elistism about you that does not make me want to read your posts any longer.
Dust: and I'll to that just too much sarcasm.....
AF, I am not going to read your posts any longer because it's not good for my spirit. Your comments to Speak were unnecessary. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1867
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.147.94.131
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:21 am: |
|
Well AF I am guessing you don't believe in God because you said there is no ultimate truth unless you think that God is just a messed up faulty inventive creator (who's opinions are just as good or bad as anyone elses) playing with his big aquarium and cages of neurotic guineapigs made in his image. But I don't know what you exactly think so tell us more.
AF you said to speak: But, now you've revealed quite a dark side to your personality on this thread and the one 40/40 created for A-F.
40: What am I now a mad scientist McCoy? creating an image of AF by putting words or shoes in his mouth? Come on now, you invited me to ask so I did. (By the way j-2 it is hard to believe that picture at cuckoo is actually a young Deforest - McCoy, he aged bad by Star Trek times)
As far as speak, the speak talking now is the one from over a year a go I remember most. Alcohol makes him goofy and kind but nothing and injustice makes him a bit stern and strict when it comes to protecting things he loves. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.147.94.131
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:24 am: |
|
Well AF I am guessing you don't believe in God because you said there is no ultimate truth unless you think that God is just a messed up faulty inventive creator (who's opinions are just as good or bad as anyone elses) playing with his big aquarium and cages of neurotic guineapigs made in his image. But I don't know what you exactly think so tell us more.
AF you said to speak: But, now you've revealed quite a dark side to your personality on this thread and the one 40/40 created for A-F.
40: What am I now a mad scientist McCoy? creating an image of AF by putting words or shoes in his mouth? Come on now, you invited me to ask so I did. (By the way j-2 it is hard to believe that picture at cuckoo is actually a young Deforest - McCoy, he aged bad by Star Trek times)
As far as speak, the speak talking now is the one from over a year a go I remember most. Alcohol makes him goofy and kind but nothing and injustice makes him a bit stern and strict when it comes to protecting things he loves. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 634
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 218.130.221.129
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:01 am: |
|
Thanks Spartacus |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 643
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.29.86
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:44 am: |
|
I have received a reply from the New Zealand minister of Education in regards to EN's role in NZ schools. Talks about it being a serious matter but each education board having responsibility. Will post more soon. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.212.128
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:37 am: |
|
Ulyankee, I am wondering, since Bartoc and EN have decided to have their document sealed, How about the lawsuit in regards to the Bartoc and Nashville school. That surely is not sealed . Is there any news on that ? |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1374
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:57 am: |
|
It was the same lawsuit. The Metro Nashville-Davidson County school district was just another defendant in the case. So yes, the whole thing is sealed. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:04 pm: |
|
*UPDATE*
BWOC has posted a scanned PDF copy of the original notarized letter on its website. Guess someone reads FACTNet. Thanks for taking me up on my suggestion; it was very helpful.
BTW, the letter does not indicate that the plaintiffs admitted to lying in the original complaint.
Also, note who signed the letter LAST.
And how long it took between the time this letter was signed and the lawsuit settled (November 2, 2006) and when Bethel decided to release the letter. I'm not sure if one could characterize this as an "open letter" that the parties "sent" to Bethel since signing this may simply have been one of the conditions under which all parties agreed to drop/settle the lawsuit. In addition, I'm not sure that a notarized letter (which this obviously is) could be said to be the same as being under oath as in being on the witness stand in a court of law. My understanding is that the notary is a witness to the signatures on the letter (which looks like it was drafted by attorneys, not by the plaintiffs themselves), though the wording does say "sworn to and subscribed before me" as notarized documents typically do. I have an attorney friend I can ask about this though, for further clarification. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 1:14 pm: |
|
One more thing I noticed. The plaintiffs were two high school students who just graduated from high school and I believe turned 18 this past year (they were still minors when it was first filed but came of age later), and their mothers.
While 18 is the age of legal majority in the US I also don't think that 18 year olds who are just graduating from high school are going to necessarily be as mature as older people (like parents). You couldn't have told me this when I was 18 but now...
I noticed that the two 18 year old girls signed this letter on 1 November. The mother of one of the girls did not sign, but her daughter had power of attorney to sign for her. So really, three plaintiffs executed this document--the two 18 year old girls and Bartoc.
And Bartoc signed the next day.
This is the scenario I'm imagining. You get the two girls off alone without their parents with a passel of attorneys, after a fairly long and drawn out process where they may have been deposed, crossexamined, etc. etc. etc. Also, as has been insinuated, it's possible neither of these girls may have been the most stable or grounded to begin with. Legal age of majority yes, but not totally mature stable adults imo. I mean, if I had been in this same situation when I was 18 I would have been a wreck and a half and just have wanted it to be done and over with. And so they get them to sign this document. The next day Bartoc signs, and what else could she do, since after all, the two girls are now at the age of legal majority and she could either go along or not. I know that's a lot to read into this document but it is apparent from the dates and the power of attorney that the two girls signed it first, without either of their parents.
If anything close to this really happened, SHAME on Bethel and on EN. Legal, sure, ok guys, you win. Right and befitting international Christian leaders, NO.
Proving that you were right and they were wrong, well, no, it doesn't do that either. It just shows that you either have good attorneys (and nothing like having one's brother along to look out for your own self-interest, particularly since he too was once an MCM campus director and understands the issues here) or maybe just more of them. |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 315
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.232
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 1:30 pm: |
|
Zeal? Come on!
The first post on this thread says EN called a suicide attempt Zeal?!!
Warn them High School and warn the Colleges. There is a thread that never took off some place in here about listing the colleges. I tried to start it hoping that if someone googled EN and colleges that it would help aid and direct parents on whether thier kid was in danger or needed spoken too! |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 316
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.232
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 1:31 pm: |
|
Zeal? Come on!
The first post on this thread says EN called it a suicide attempt Zeal?!!
Warn them High School and warn the Colleges. There is a thread that never took off some place in here about listing the colleges. I tried to start it hoping that if someone googled EN and colleges that it would help aid and direct parents on whether thier kid was in danger or needed spoken too! |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 30
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 2:45 pm: |
|
First, as one of the "backslidden" Christians you all discuss earlier in the thread (those who were beat down by all the trying to be good and just end up backsliding cause its easier) I would like to thank Wild Wood for your posts. To those of us who may or may not ever attend a church again, it is those like you who remind us of the true Jesus we met. The love of God is in you and it brings hope to my heart I may someday not be "backslidden" and will be able to forgive and "detox" from all the damage that EN "religiousity" did, and finally open my relationshiop up with God.
Second, and a side note. Ginger, a long time ago on another thread you mentioned one of the "good" EN Churches. I want everyone to know, I am from one of those "good" EN churches, and still, significant damage is done to my spirit because EN IS a descendent of MCM and even in the good churches, the influence and control of MCM still exists. |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 2:51 pm: |
|
First, as one of the "backslidden" Christians you all discuss earlier in the thread (those who were beat down by all the trying to be good and just end up backsliding cause its easier) I would like to thank Wild Wood for your posts. To those of us who may or may not ever attend a church again, it is those like you who remind us of the true Jesus we met. The love of God is in you and it brings hope to my heart I may someday not be "backslidden" and will be able to forgive and "detox" from all the damage that EN "religiousity" did, and finally open my relationshiop up with God.
Second, and a side note. Ginger, a long time ago on another thread you mentioned one of the "good" EN Churches. I want everyone to know, I am from one of those "good" EN churches, and still, significant damage is done to my spirit because EN IS a descendent of MCM and even in the good churches, the influence and control of MCM still exists. |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 3:04 pm: |
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To Truthseeker:
It is those like you who have forced us out of the church. It is the celebration that "those liars" are "revealed.!" It is the mentality of "the enemy tried to defeat us but we won!!!!!" I remember the days when I would have rejoiced at the lawsuit being "sealed" and the letter being written. But, as noted by so many others on this board, WHERE IS YOUR JESUS! He is not in your words, he is not in your actions. You claim his name, but Jesus' heart would be broken that these two young girls were huting (whether the church was at fault or not). The enemy did not "loose," his plot for distruction was not "revealed" in this incident. However, in all this "rejoicing" for the "victory," the love that Christ went to the cross for, for ALL OF US (YOU INCLUDED) WITH EVIL IN OUR HEART, is thrown away for "casting lots" at the base of his cross. Like the others here, I think someday the truth will be revealed to you, (you know, the veil that you think the "world" is wearing, but you actually are) and when that day comes, know that those who have truly found the love of christ (WildWood, Matt), they will forgive you and will stand with you. Those backslidden like me, becuase you forced the love of Christ out of our lives, we may not be able to do anything other than "cast lots" for what you leave behind. Because we are not at peace in our relationship with Christ, unlike those on this board who are, we will not be able to turn the other cheek like he asked us to, we will show you the same mercy and compassion you show now. |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 3:08 pm: |
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Those are the seeds you sowed in all of us who were "radically saved" with "incredible destinys." And of those seeds you sowed, someday, of those seeds you will reap. |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 34
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 3:19 pm: |
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Those are the seeds you sowed in all of us who were "radically saved" with "incredible destinys." And of those seeds you sowed, someday, of those seeds you will reap. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2890
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 3:38 pm: |
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Out of Hiding, my spiritual life was basically on hold for years after Maranatha. I went through the religious motions of going to church, but did not want any part of the God that MCM preached. Many years!
It has occurred to me that I may have never left that Emmaus Road, it was just a long lonely stretch of highway for a while. "Backslider" is a word of judgement that religious people seem to take great delight in calling those who they feel have 'fallen away'.
My long lonely road has become a nice boulevard full of dear friends and lovely scenery, and a real glimpse of the grace of Christ. Looking back though, the quiet road taught me a lot....my prayers are with you... |
coppertree
Senior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 1185
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 4.229.207.107
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 3:51 pm: |
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Hi Out of Hiding,
Thank you for your posts. Don't worry so much about being " back slidden ". I feel that is just slur, from EN. I think of the verse about the Publican, who was saying woe is me, a sinner.. and think how the Pharisee was in comparison. God understanding your anger.
It is sad to see that EN has successfully apparently , in bulling two young girls, and revealed their names. How sad.
} |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2891
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:12 pm: |
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I agree with my friend Copper, O-O-H, God does understand your anger, and is not shocked by it. It is all part of the healing process.
Someone comes along and calls us a backslider when we are just trying to piece our lives together? I now say: thank you, you have put me in the same company of the Publican that Copper referred to...the one God had mercy on. I shudder more for the one using the term than the "backslidee". Wow, new word. haha
Embrace your feelings, God's love for you is a constant. Your journey will end in a good place, just keep walking! |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:19 pm: |
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No trust me: I am back slidden. I am living with my boyfriend and we are not married. I am still smoking cigarettes (one of those things EN could just not get me to give up no matter how much they tried). I am not going to church, praying, or reading the word. I have no problem cursing our going out drinking.
Truthseeker: feel free to cast your judgements on me as a bitter, rebellous person. But, know this. At one time, I was radically slaved. At one time, I was living with my pastor and his family. At one time, I attended every conference and consistently prayed in tounges. At one time I was in ENLI. At one time I forsook my family and friends for EN. At one time, I was planning on going to full time ministry.
But then, that voice, you know the one that says:
"well, my pastor keeps telling me to quit smoking but when do I feed the poor? My church keeps telling me to voluntteer and serve, but when do I serve those outside the church with church? My pastor keeps telling me that we will conquer, that we are more than overcomers, and all those who are sin are evil, but when do I show compassion on those like HE showed me?" And then, finally after 4 years, completely disconneded from everyone (no real friends in Church and alienating all the friends outside of church), being broke, and tired of "Trying" to be good enough for EN through serving, tithing, no sinning, etc. I one day just decided enough was enough.
Therefore..... |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:22 pm: |
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"Truth Seeker" (and those in EN), know this.
I take responsibility for my choice to "walk away" from Jesus. I choose not live in sin. I choose to not read my bible. I choose to be backslidden as you say. But I will tell you this, I choose to be backslidden because it is much easier than trying to be you. So...I take responisiblity for my own decisions and actions:
WHEN WILL THOSE IN EN TAKE RESPONSIBLITY FOR THIERS? |
out_of_hiding
Junior Member
Username: out_of_hiding
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 207.137.12.130
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:26 pm: |
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that should be "rebellious" and "radically saved"
but who knows, maybe "radically slaved" was a freudian slip |
lablady2
Senior Member
Username: lablady2
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 12.219.171.224
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 4:37 pm: |
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Dearest OOH:
I have so been where you are....and stayed there a very long time. My attitude when I left MCM toward God was this: "Hey, You're God, and I'm basically dust, so why don't you worry about ME for a while"! I stayed pretty well ticked off for the next five years and didn't give a rip what God or his pet duck thought.
Slowly...things began to change and it wasn't through any action on my part. God was just faithful.
Of course, I did convert to Judaism some twenty years later, so there are probably several people here that are convinced that I'm MORE than backslidden. That's their opinion and their problem. My point is that God is faithful.
Of course, I'm not advocating that you carelessly indulge in all kinds of reckless behaviors, not because God will love you any less, but because you can get hurt.
God loves you. That will not change. | <
