Manipulation

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Author Message   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1544 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.120.216 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 8:29 pm:        What I saw in the end in HH was manipulation had become a substitute for anointing. Manipulation brings a reproach on any leader. A prearranged service to impress a certain person has no place in the real body of Christ. It will be no outward enemy that will conquer HH it will be the enemy inside the gates. The delusion that some man is Abraham...Moses...Elijah...is the downfall of any group. The thought that a "leader" is "too big and spiritual" for consultation is an unscriptural conclusion. Yet that is the way HH works...They submit to no one for no one is on their level...   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 8:38 pm:        hmm i wonder what everyone thought of Abraham... Moses .... Elijah if my memory serves me they were not the most popular people off there time Jesus said that the true followers of him would be persecuted soooo.........   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1546 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.120.216 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 8:44 pm:        No man today is Abraham...moses or Elijah...Branham thought he was Elijah...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1547 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.120.216 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 8:50 pm:        I don't think you know the depth of the pit people fall into following leaders that claim to be someone else... I am an old missionary and lived long enough to see the results of people that followed Branham and other leaders like him...   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 8:53 pm:        how can you judge who is who? does it bother you that God may be using someone? does it say in the bible that there will never be more great men of God?   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 8:59 pm:        no one at HH is saying there anyone important they just try to love God and each other the best they can i myself cant fault them for that its others who by there hurt pride try to make them out to be horibble monsters in sheep clothes   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1548 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.112.180 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 9:11 pm:        It does not bother me at all who God uses...I see you have no ideal the depth of deceit and false doctrine in HH.   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 9:27 pm:        lol thats funny you obvously judged me wrong i know about them your the one who really doesnt which is obvious to every one but you and a few coniving people who are up to no good every belief they have like it or not is bible based its not just some wild idea by a crazy man that is unless the bible and its writers were crazy which was a popular belief in there day   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1552 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.112.180 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 10:12 pm:        so you know they lived with us here in Brazil...laughed at the way our people worship and used our name on their pamplets without our knowledge? You sure know a lot...   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 356 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.9.90.42 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 10:03 am:        Hello Nevermind-Me, Welcome to the discussion board. From the previous post you must be an ex-member or the child of a member or a combination there of. It makes a huge difference if you were ex-member or not. You posted..."lol thats funny you obvously judged me wrong i know about them your the one who really doesnt which is obvious to every one but you and a few coniving people who are up to no good every belief they have like it or not is bible based its not just some wild idea by a crazy man that is unless the bible and its writers were crazy which was a popular belief in there day" NM I do not think that anyone is saying everything HH belives is wrong. I do not think anyone is questioning the sinserity of the vision that BA had when he started HH. I do not think thinks he is crazy. What I do think is that there are core doctrines that are false. If you are going to have a meaningful discussion then you are are going to have to do better than saying "you know about them" and then dismissing the writers here as a "few coniving people who are up to no good". I believe they are deceived on several levels. There are hundreds of posts that myself and others have posted why we think HH is deceaved. If you disagree pick out one and tell us why. Under Grace   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1553 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.47.91 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 10:41 am:        Under Grace..you have spoken the heart of most of us...I think everyone could say something good about hh...it is just they got off course. I may not agree with their authority message and all that comes with it but I do think BA started off with a noble goal. In fact many things could still be salvaged and things could make a complete turn around. I really think that is the heart of most all of us here. We want them to see that they are just fellow climbers like all of us...they have no special revelation...the special revelations has what has got them so far off target...and in the end seperated families and ruined lives... HH will have to stop brainwashing their people trying to make them think they are so far above all other christians and no one is quite on their level. They will need to learn that God is worshipped and adored in many ways and in many cultures. They will have to teach that respect and authority must be extended to all not just their select elders...that according to some a few have reached earthly perfection. HH's teachings has only set themselves up for a fall...they may brainwash, and use scare tatics on some but it will not work on all... That happens to be why everyone is not JW or some other bizzare cultic group... I am well aware that anyone can put anyone or any church on a cult board but to have real information is a different story...to pprove that killings have taken place, scare tatics have been used, families have been seperated, God's name has beeen falsely used is a complete different story...and those things and many more have been proven true at HH...so no matter how much good they may have EVIL doctrines and practices over ride the good... What other group other than a cult would say to spank a baby? What other group other than a cult would change God's message dozens of times...God said it is ok...next day God said it is not ok...God had nothing to do with it...Men in their carnel nature were not pleased. God left us His word we do not have to follow a bunch of men that try to have "more than the book" revelation to make them look spiritual... No one there will admit it because they are afraid to but their great and might prophecies have not come to pass even though they have tried to force them to come to pass... Most of us would have more respect for them if they just admitted they missed God...and have used tatics that are not biblical. Everyone makes mistakes...I sure have made lots of them in my life...David made mistakes...many men and women of God made mistakes... I believe the reason many people write on this board and others just send private e mails about HH is not because they hate HH it is because of HH being so overbearing and trying to force people to do what HH says is the will of the Lord... I have Jesus in my heart...He is my Lord, my Savior, MY YAHWEH...but even so I am just a human being... When I first saw HH even though my friends did not want me to visit there I stood in awe...the outside part was breath taking...As a women I loved their gardens, their deli, their soap making, their canning and many things...but the deeper we got into their doctrine the more I saw it was not teaching Biblical seperation but a strange type seperation from other churches, from family, from friends, from other christians... The more I studied and talked to them the more I realized that they think like many cults think and teach their people..."we are the only ones"..."well we are sure there are others but we have not found them..." Very scary to me...and more scary is their POWER over the people...the rule with a rod of iron... Question their authority and see what happens....   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 394 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 5:36 pm:        ML The delusion that some man is Abraham...Moses...Elijah...is the downfall of any group. The thought that a "leader" is "too big and spiritual" for consultation is an unscriptural conclusion. Yet that is the way HH works...They submit to no one for no one is on their level... NM hmm i wonder what everyone thought of Abraham... Moses .... Elijah if my memory serves me they were not the most popular people off there time Jesus said that the true followers of him would be persecuted soooo......... ML No man today is Abraham...moses or Elijah...Branham thought he was Elijah... NM how can you judge who is who? does it bother you that God may be using someone? does it say in the bible that there will never be more great men of God?... Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:54 pm:        They Told Me If I Left .......... by Ron Henzel One of the most insidious features of Spiritual Abuse ... ... is the state of terror in which it leaves so many of its victims. People who flee Spiritual Abuse are in a double-bind: in the very process of fleeing from the oppression that comes from being part of the group, they are terrorized by the threats of the leadership and various members -- threats of dire consequences, punishment from God, and even eternal damnation. Jehovah's Witnesses are told that members who leave the Watchtower Society will be destroyed in Armageddon. Members who leave the International Churches of Christ (also known as the Boston Movement) are told that they will be condemned to eternal torment in Hell. In the group I came out of, the leader kept telling us that no one "prospered spiritually" after leaving, and he not-so-subtly implied that many of them were never really Christians in the first place. (Translation: they're going to Hell.) In one form or another, to one extent or another, spiritually abusive groups elevate affiliation with their "body of believers" to a requirement for salvation -- or at the very least they elevate membership in the group to a requirement for demonstrating that you are a Christian. In either case the result is the same: once you're in, you can't leave -- at least not safely; at least not without jeopardizing your eternal destiny. After spending a sufficient amount of time in these groups, escaping members are often totally defenseless when it comes to this kind of spiritual terrorism. They have come to the point where because they are no longer able to endure the very real fear and torment of being in the group, and they are willing to risk the potential fear and torment of being outside the group. But they frequently leave with the sincere conviction that their departure is a sign that they are going to Hell, and they have no idea how they are going to cope with that. For many going through the exit process, fears of eternal damnation become a constant preoccupation. Once they are fully out, the result is almost always severe depression, and they are sometimes suicidal. As for me: I was too afraid to commit suicide, because all my assurance of salvation had been stripped away by my abusive group, and I didn't want to arrive in Hell any sooner than I had to. I kept praying to God that He would give me whatever it was that I needed (repentance, more faith, etc.) to be assured of salvation long after I left. Another woman who left our group before me remembers drawing a deep breath and saying to herself: "Well, this probably means I'm going to Hell ... but I can't stay!" Another former member moved hundreds of miles away to avoid the inevitable, searing condemnation of the members she left behind, some of whom had been old friends before she joined.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:55 pm:        Such a person is being tormented by the idea that God has forsaken them because they have left -- or are thinking about leaving -- a particular church, a denomination, a small group, a religious organization, or a local fellowship, and this kind of fear has been instilled in them. Such a person is terrified by the simple fact that they even found this web site. "Perhaps it's a sign of just how far away from God I've fallen!" they might think to themselves. And they sense the tentacles of Satan wrapping around their souls, and the cold hands of death grasping after them. Such a person feels as though he or she is somehow permanently contaminated, damaged goods, poison to all other true Christians. He or she might look for a big church, and then hide in the shadows -- or avoid churches altogether. He or she may have begun to wander numbly through, spiritually aimless, occasionally experiencing deep attacks of dread and panic. "Does God love me?" "Does God even care about me?" "Is it too late for me?" "Please, God -- tell me it's not too late! Just show me what I have to do to know that you love me!"   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:55 pm:        "But it was so nice at first ..." Time and time again we hear the same story: "When I first joined they were so loving, so kind, so united. ... They treated me special. ... I never experienced the kind of things I experienced when I first joined them." And then? "It was so gradual, and so subtle," they tell us. "It was only after many months that I began to dread going to meetings, or getting together with other 'brothers and sisters,' or seeing our leader. But by then, it was too late! They had me convinced that this was a special work of God -- a special movement of God's Spirit -- a prophetic voice for these times. "To leave them was to leave God ... and yet I knew that I just couldn't take it anymore! I was always being rebuked for every move I made. I was always either being the object of harsh treatment, or having to stand by and watch as other people endured harsh treatment. If I ever questioned their judgment, they said it indicated that I was rebellious, carnal and unrepentant. It finally came to the point where I couldn't bring myself to walk through that door anymore ... "But they told me ...!" these people say, "They had told me over and over, even from the early days after I first started coming ... They told me how spiritually dangerous it was to leave. They told me that people only left because their sinfulness was being confronted in the group, and they didn't like it, so they left. I remember hoping that I would never be like them -- and now I am! "They told me that if I left ..." My experience was so much like yours. I know what it's like to go personally through the things I am describing here. So let's look at some of the things spiritual abusers tell us will happen to us if we leave them:   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:56 pm:        "They told me that if I left, I would backslide spiritually." No matter how many Bible verses they quote, no matter how many examples of what happened to other people spiritually after leaving, this is pure bunk, and you don't have to believe it. Many, many groups have a habit of pointing to examples of those who left and went into a spiritual tailspin. But is this a negative reflection on the people who leave, or the group that they left? Much more often than not, when any group can cite a long list of such spiritual casualties, it's a negative reflection upon them rather than a negative reflection on those who left. And yet how cunningly they twist it around! Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided. Unfortunately, we can't see the broken people who lay strewn all around us as a result of these groups, because typically when people leave spiritually abusive groups, they go into hiding and do not want to be found. So all that we have left is the word of the leaders, who testify at length to how "backslidden" these ex-members are. Perhaps they can even come up with particular "sins" these people are guilty of. Some abusive leaders do not go into details about the supposed "sins" these ex-members are guilty of. Instead, they are so confident of their hold over remaining members that they are content to let them draw their own conclusions. Why did they leave? a member asks. They fell away, comes the ready response. End of story. After hearing that explanation enough times, remaining members naturally come to equate leaving with "falling away" from God. But when we examine these ideas under the light of Scripture, that light exposes them for the utter nonsense that they are. We do not come to God by going to a church, to a group, to an organization, or to any other human being on this earth. We come to God by coming to a person. We come to God by coming to Jesus. Jesus Himself said it: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. [John 14:6, New American Standard Bible.]   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:57 pm:        Since we don't come to God by coming to one particular group, it follows that we don't leave God by leaving that group. The only way we can leave God is by leaving Christ, which means renouncing Him, and turning away from the faith. And when we come to Jesus, we don't have to come walking on eggshells. We don't have to wonder if He will accept us. For He also says: ... And the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. [John 6:37b, New American Standard Bible.] Jesus does not cast people out who come to Him, or drive them away. That is a key difference between Jesus and spiritually abusive leaders. A favorite verse that spiritual abusers like to quote in order to intimidate people is 1 John 2:16: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. [1 John 1:19, New International Version.] Spiritual abusers will point to this verse and then point to those who have left their so-called "fellowships" or "churches" or whatever, and say, "See! The Bible says that these people were never really Christians in the first place, or they would have remained with us!"   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:57 pm:        But this is a twisting of Scripture. By saying, "they went out from us," John is not referring to one particular church body or group of believers. Instead, he is referring to those who have left the faith itself, and have denied that Jesus is the Son of God (as John points out in verse 22). In fact, the Apostle John is referring to a very specific group of cultists in the early church who were called "Gnostics" (pronounced "NAH-sticks"). These were people who believed that they had "special" spiritual knowledge that other professing Christians did not have -- much the same way that spiritual abusers today claim to have "special" knowledge, "special" gifts, or insight, or callings, or integrity, or whatever. The Gnostics were very self-assured people. They could talk a big talk. They knew how to sound so lofty and spiritual that most people who heard them frankly could not understand them half the time and they made a practice of questioning the spirituality of Christians in regular churches. Gnostics would sneak into a Christian church, start spreading around a bunch of pseudo-spiritual teachings, and draw little followings around themselves. When people questioned them they would turn-the-tables on them and accuse them of not being "spiritual enough to understand." This had a tendency to make other Christians feel inferior, and rob them of their assurance, which is why the Apostle John spends so much time in 1 John assuring his readers that they are the ones who are really Christians, and not the Gnostics. Eventually these Gnostics would take their little bands and split off to form a new group. It was that situation that the Apostle John was addressing, not the situation of a believer fleeing an abusive group. In fact, were the Apostle John around today, I am convinced that he would find a lot more in common between the old Gnostics and today's spiritual abusers than he would find between the Gnostics and people who leave abusive groups.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:58 pm:        "They told me that if I left, I would join up with the enemies of God." The leader of one group in Indianapolis, Indiana (USA) constantly warns his followers about "the web of darkness" that is lying-in-wait just outside their little semi-communal congregation. He's not talking about the World Wide Web (although, coincidentally, he discourages his flock from surfing the web because of supposed "spiritual pornography" that is on it, which is supposedly much worse than regular pornography). He's talking about the informal network of ex-members who have either been kicked out or walked out on their own, and who have begun communicating in order to support each other through the terrible process of exit and re-adjustment to the real world outside their little cult. People in the group become conditioned to warnings about "the web of darkness" waiting out there to consume them once they leave. One-by-one as members leave or are kicked out, their reputations are smeared and their characters are assassinated by leader. Most of the time, the leader doesn't have to say hardly anything. The simple fact that he ordered someone to leave is enough to persuade the other members that the person is in some kind of sin. When someone leaves on their own, it is usually preceded by many solemn warnings about "the web of darkness." Then, when it is discovered through the grapevine that an ex-member has been in contact with other ex-members, the remaining members say to each other and themselves, "See! It's inevitable: once you leave the 'spiritual protection' of our group, you fall into 'the web of darkness!'" If it were not for the fact that members take this so seriously, and that it causes ex-members many sleepless nights and many bouts with hysteria, we could write it off as perhaps a very bad joke that is in very poor taste. The goal is obvious: to scare people into staying, and to create a feeling of utter isolation for those who have left or are in the process of leaving. Many people who have leave the group think that while those other people left one day get a phone call from an ex-member and panic is the inevitable result. "Oh no!" they shudder to themselves, "It's true! I've fallen into 'the web of darkness!' This means that I'm one of them!" People who have recently left an abusive group have been known to refuse calls from ex-members who had been out for a while because of this very fear. This keeps them isolated and afraid, and more likely to return to the group in order to avoid "God's wrath." In my ex-group, the leader spoke of the "network of sick people" that were outside of our group, ready and waiting for us to leave the group so we could "plug back into them." Other leaders use various other metaphors and analogies. It is a very common theme; and a very unbiblical one. There is nothing in the Bible that says you cannot leave one group to join another group of Bible-believing Christians, especially when you have been abused by the group you are leaving.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:59 pm:        "They told me that if I left, they would have nothing more to do with me." This can be a very painful experience. Sometimes it involves more than friendships, but also involves families. Some families have more than one generation in an abusive group, or sometimes siblings or other relatives join together. In its most extreme form this is referred to as "shunning." Several months before writing this, I was standing at the cash register line of a local Christian bookstore. Eventually I noticed that standing only five or six feet to my right was a woman who was still attending the abusive group I left. A sudden wave of various emotions came over me. Should I try to get her attention? Should I greet her? Should I say anything to her? For a moment I wasn't sure it was her, but I stared at her long enough to assure myself that it was -- and the sheer length of my stare would have been enough to make anyone on the receiving end of it feel uncomfortable. And yet, there she stood, standing as straight as a post, her cold, stony face staring straight ahead, refusing to turn to acknowledge my presence. She was shunning me. She could hardly have avoided seeing me and my wife standing to her left as she approached the counter. She would have had to walk right by us just to get there. I began to scan the rest of the store over my shoulder, and sure enough: I saw her husband not that far away, his back strategically turned toward us, looking at some of the merchandise. Surely at least one of them must have seen us! I thought to myself. They were shunning us. Just as our abusive ex-leader had warned us. Of all the painful experiences of my life, this ranked somewhere near the top of my list. But by this time more than four years had past and God's healing in my life was working to soften this blow. It is not simply the pain of being cut off from important relationships that is involved here. What makes it all the more traumatic is that those who shun us also blame us. They say things like, "It is you who are shunning us! We are simply acting toward you physically the way you are acting toward us spiritually." They often know how to say just the right thing to confuse us, to turn the tables on us, and to make us feel guilty. But don't believe it. There's not one shred of evidence in the Bible to justify them shunning you simply for leaving their group. They are simply misusing the Bible in a vain attempt to justify their own sinful attitude towards you.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 85 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:59 pm:        "They told me that if I left, I would bring evil into the lives of those around me." Abusive groups are very good at making their members feel like worms on the undersides of slimy rocks. They spend a lot of time and energy working on tearing down any positive or hopeful thoughts that members may have about themselves in order to foster dependence on the leader. It is their association with the group (and ultimately with the leader) that must provide them with feelings of self-worth and adequacy, or the leaders fear they will lose control. Therefore, the leaders tell their members that leaving the group is proof that they never really "cleaned up their act," never really "repented of their sins," never really "saw the Kingdom," never really "understood the Gospel," and so on. This arouses all the conditioning and training to think of themselves as scum-buckets that they received in the group. As a final ploy, if the confession of personal sins was emphasized in the group, the leaders are often known to bring up these past sins, throwing them in the faces of those attempting to leave. As a result, people leave abusive groups with a pervasive feeling of being spiritually contaminated, of being some kind of "spiritual poison" to others, of being "damaged goods." Ex-members who have received this kind of treatment are often known to become reclusive. They may visit other churches, but remain in the shadows to avoid all personal contact with others. Sometimes the leader will even contact the church to which the ex-member has fled, and make all kinds of accusations against the ex-members character. This is what happened in my case. In a letter from my ex-leader to my new pastor in December 1992, my ex-leader made all kinds of false accusations against me, knowing that the group would back up anything he said. The letter even advised my new church to "return" me to the group for "correction!" Fortunately I had a pastor who wasn't born yesterday. He spoke with my ex-leader on the phone, questioned him very carefully, and finally said to him, "So far you have not mentioned anything that would justify Biblical church discipline." My new pastor concluded (correctly) that the real issue was one of disagreement between me and my ex-leader, which my ex-leader was trying to trump up into over-inflated charges of spiritual and moral waywardness. My new pastor told the truth. He accurately appraised the situation, and called it for what it was. This comforted me somewhat, but not entirely, because over the course of my 5-1/2-year involvement in the group, my ex-leader had portrayed almost every pastor outside of his influence as being either "corrupt," or "spiritually immature." What if he was right, and this was just one more pastor who didn't know what he was talking about, and should have listened to my ex-leader? What if I really was some kind of backslidden Christian who needed to be disciplined? Recovering from Spiritual Abuse is not simply recovering from a single issue, but recovering from a whole complex of issues that all connect to each other. It takes time to track down each one and disconnect it from your thinking, but over time you can do it. Meanwhile: when they tell you that by leaving their group you will hurt others, just remember how much they hurt you. Would Jesus treat you that way? I don't think so.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 86 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:01 pm:        "They told me that if I left, something terrible would happen to me." In one group, the leader spends a great deal of time recounting unfortunate incidents that overtook ex-members after they left his group. Some of them got into car accidents. One man broke his arm. All of these things were supposed to be "God's wake-up calls," warning these people to return. In another group, an ex-member reported that she had been viciously assaulted. A short while later she received a letter from the group which said, in summary: "What did you expect? You left the spiritual protection of the group!" This is yet another ungodly threat that spiritual abusers use to manipulate people and try to keep them under their control. Satan and his demons are out there waiting, lurking, seeking out people to devour -- and if you leave this group, God is going to let he get you! This is a gross and cruel distortion of Biblical truth. Yes, Satan is out there. And yes, he's pretty hungry for Christians (and others) to spiritually devour -- not necessarily physically. Satan's primary goal is to turn us against God, not to make us sick, injured or dead. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of Scripture. But let me ask you something: do you believe that Jesus is God in human flesh (John 1:1), and that he died for your sins and rose again (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)? If that's the case, then you are a person who is indwelt by God's Holy Spirit (John 14:17). God is in you -- and as the Apostle John teaches us, this means that we do not need to live in fear of Satan: You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. [1 John 4:4, New International Version of the Bible.] In order for Satan to do serious spiritual harm to a believer, it would take far more than that believer to leave some group. God would have to leave the believer -- and that will never happen, for the Bible says: ... God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." [Hebrews 13:5b, New International Version of the Bible.] If some professing Christian leader or anyone else tells you that if you leave their group Satan is going to get you --- tell them to buzz off!   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:02 pm:        "They told me that if I left, I would go to Hell." This list of things that they tell us when we leave all began with the threat that we would backslide if we left our spiritually abusive group. The other threats on this list are those that frequently follow the first threat: that they would shun us, that God would "get" us, and now, finally, that we'll probably end up in Hell. But have you noticed how the first threat (of backsliding) is reinforced by the other threats? Ask yourself the question: if you were being shunned by your Christian friends who told you that God was about to whomp on you and send you to Hell -- wouldn't that increase your chances of backsliding? Now, no Christian should ever desire for his or her brother or sister to backslide into sin, and yet that's exactly the kind of system that spiritual abusers set up -- one designed to encourage those who leave the group to backslide! They remove every spiritual support, and inform their victims that they will fail. It's obvious that they are treating the person who leaves like an enemy (at least by any Biblical standard), and yet that's not exactly how the Bible tells us we are supposed to treat our enemies. Spiritual Abuse sets up a system in which members become totally dependent upon the leadership. Therefore it is impossible for the leadership to endorse any kind of independence on the part of the membership. So when one of his members starts displaying independence, the leader has to find some explanation -- either the person is just going through a rebellious phase and will eventually come back (after a lot of scolding and threats, of course), or the person is really lost forever. Often a leader will go through a whole list of "warnings," similar to the ones listed above, and if those do not produce the desired response, the leader tells his flock, "Well, if we were really dealing with a Christian here, he would have listened to my warnings. Since he hasn't listened, he must be a doomed reprobate." (Translation: he's going to Hell.) Threat of eternal damnation is, of course, the ultimate weapon in the spiritual abuser's arsenal. If that doesn't work, what will? Probably nothing, and he knows it. But it is a weapon that is not so much designed to bring you back, as it is to keep others from leaving. Remember: the spiritual abuser tries to frighten you because he is frightened. He lives in constant fear of exposure. He desperately wants to avoid being exposed to outside scrutiny, but he also wants to avoid being discovered as a fraud by his own flock. He dreads the day when they will discover that the emperor has no clothes. Consigning you to the flames is his way of trying to bar the doors against any further escapes from his control. Not every abusive leader uses this weapon to the same extent. The more clever the abuser, the more he will save it for strategic occasions. For example: if someone was especially high up in the pecking order of the group, and that person leaves, the leader is more likely to pronounce the judgment of Hell. But the simple fact is -- Biblically speaking -- you don't have to put up with it.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 88 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:02 pm:        "They didn't tell me that if I left ..." There are some things that some abusive groups (not all of them) do that they do not warn you about. They do these things to cause further confusion in the minds of people who are leaving them. Sometimes they assign a member to call you on the phone and ask you to come back. This is confusing because this kind of phone call often comes on the heals of repeated attacks on the character of the departing member. There have even been occasions when someone has been consigned to Hell by the leader, and afterwards they get one of these pleading phone calls. Sometimes the ex-members will encounter their ex-leader, or other group members, and actually have a pleasant experience. The ex-leader may say something that sounds encouraging, and they may exchange hugs. The ex-leader may even admit to some wrongdoing -- although it is usually a very non-specific admission. I have received two letters of apology from my ex-leader since leaving my abusive group. After receiving the first letter, he wrote me again to tell me that when he apologized the first time, he didn't have anything specific in mind. After receiving the second letter of apology, the leader renewed his personal attacks on me via the Internet. This type of behavior is attributable to one basic fact: your ex-leader is afraid of you, and he fears that his techniques for making you afraid of him are not working. You are a former-insider in his group. You know what really goes on in there. You know how people are really treated. You are dangerous to him, because you can tell others. Bottom line: that's what all of this is really all about.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:03 pm:        "They told me that if I left ..." In the final analysis, they tell you these things to make you afraid. They want to make you afraid of God, afraid of Satan, afraid of others (the "enemies of God;" the shunning of the group), and afraid of yourself. They want to leave you with nowhere to turn except back to them. Your ex-leader may have filled you with so many fears that for a while it seems as though everywhere you look you find some confirmation of his warnings. For most people, recovering from this kind of bondage is a long process. The bondage itself is a form of conditioning. You developed very strong, habitual thinking patterns in this group which in many cases cannot be cured overnight. You need to work at relaxing (no matter what your ex-leader said). Depending on your physical condition, you should consider seeing a medical doctor. You need to give yourself time to heal. One step in the healing process is to realize that you're not alone, that this scam has been perpetrated on many others besides you -- some of them much more intelligent than you or I. You're not alone. The sheer fact that these tactics are so common among such a wide variety of clearly abusive groups might help you see that they can't be of God. Another step in the healing process is to ask yourself some simple questions: do loving Christians try to make people afraid of leaving them? Do loving Christians refuse to allow people to disagree with them over non-essential issues under the pain of eternal damnation?   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:04 pm:        This fits HH exactly!   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:09 pm:        EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!   aferrill Junior Member Username: aferrill Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.64.110.1 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:19 pm:        By the time I was in my fourth Covenant Church (Bob Mumford & discipleship) I was a wreck. We stayed at the worst one because we felt we were called. Yea, we were called to stay in a church where people were cold & unfeeling and would only give you a blank stare when you begged for compassion and sympathy for your wretched childhood. By the time we left after seven years, I was ready to walk away from God. Little did we know we were joining the most insidious of the Covenant Churches. Almost everyone that joined that particular church was weak. Many were mentally ill or had huge problems that required meds and/or counseling. The pastor was kind and supportive. Therein lies the problem. He kept telling me I underestimated myself and could do far more than I realized. Initially I thrived and actually grew in my walk with God. But, as I grew, I saw the shortcomings and compromise that allowed the congregation to not want to grow. We were a hospital, but most didn't want to change, so never grew spiritually. The strong ones got fed up and left. The strong ones constantly went to the pastor and confronted him and were always brushed off with "I'll pray about it". Yea right, how many years do you have to pray about being a strong, sound pastor who will repent when needed? He was, by far, the sickest because he came across so loving and caring. And what a liar he was! EVERYONE left for the same reason = him! He lied about us and everyone else that left. Of course we get the usual "your poor thing, how are you doing?" line. It's like no church is as good as ours. We're making a huge mistake and once you wise up, you'll come back. The church used to have 250 and now only about 20 attend. The other three churches we attended said we were sinning and out of the will of God. It's easy to get in, but hard to leave. Guilt guilt guilt! Whether it's in your face or behind your back, the messsage is clear = don't leave or you'll pay dearly.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 396 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 11:36 pm:        They Told Me If I Left .......... by Ron Henzel ****** ME : It's hard to believe Ron H. wasn't in HH. He really knows how it is. He is right on. I can see how people stay and close their eyes to what is going on around them. If they admit what is happening, then they might consider leaving. Leaving is scary you don't want to even consider it, so you close your eyes and say everything is just fine. It is just me. It is just the scum bag that what they are doing might be wrong. You don't admit it to anyone else and they don't admit it to you. So people think they are the only ones. You can't even tell your spouse your concerns because you will be tattled on. So sweep it under the rug. The emperor has no clothes, but you think you are the only one who can't see them. It is scary to think you are like the people who left: The people who are going to hell. So hold on a little longer, you will feel better in a little while. The brothers will explain things away. Just don't listen to closely or you will see the holes in their explanations. Take every thought captive. Don't even go there in your mind. Trust the anointed brothers, don't trust your scumbag self or the scumbag ex-members. The enemy wants you to doubt the leaders. Fight it. Fight the thoughts, or you will end up leaving, ...end up in hell. You can't make it without the group, you're just a scumbag who needs these great leaders to keep you out of hell. I felt all these things!!!! HH is your salvation... (I said it’s was mine once myself. I have heard many members say it. We believed it.) What heresy!!! God forgive us. (Message edited by foreverhis on December 28, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 776 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 5:28 pm:        Hi Folks, Warm greetings nevermind_me, I want to give you a welcome to this forum, and any other place you share about the Lord Jesus Christ. When I read your posts above these verses of scripture came to my heart, verses that has always been dear to me, even in early days with HH and days here and there. Philippians 2:1-3 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Nevermind_me, when you share above .. "...does it bother you that God may be using someone? does it say in the bible that there will never be more great men of God? ..no one at HH is saying there anyone important they just try to love God and each other the best they can i myself cant fault them for that." You share solid and true words. Words that crush like powder lies and blasphemies spoken by a few men and women groping in confusion and blindness on this forum. Even if one simply looks at the HH brethren as committed believers in the Lord Jesus Christ - even if one disagrees on this doctrine or that pattern - there is a true honor and respect that should be given to this wonderful community of believers in the Lord Jesus striving earnestly to, as you say .. "love God and each other the best they can" I feel like I am talking to a friend who understands what the Bible means in the words ... 1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. Have a wonderful weekend and yes, the new year thingy, too :-) Shalom, Praxaluh   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 6:40 pm:        thanks prax this is the yoggie bear i think you may know what im talking about if not oh well   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 6:53 pm:        well im finally able to sign on i keep getting a page that says im not allowed im sure yall hoped i was scared away but no such luck . lol anyway back to more serious things at hand. back to missionary lady to say such things as they that would have included me at the time laughed at the way yall worshiped is soo far from the truth . we rejoiced with yalls victories and were happy to see people like us who worshiped with all there hearts i know you want to make hh out to be horrible people who in a matter of time will kill there young and hurt all the poor helpless members but hold on a second that is the farthest thing from the truth i know they love and care for people alot more than i do if it was me you were attacking i wouldnt just sit by i would have done something about it well i guess they are i know they love you and all the people in brazil and are praying for yall !! thats there way or should i say the christain way by the best example of all Jesus he was beaten lied about mocked and killed and his dying words? "Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing" do we have that atitude? i dnt think we do and why dont we? maybe we should ask ourselves and i know this is over used but really what would Jesus do?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1557 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.45 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 9:26 pm:        Were you educated at HH?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1558 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.45 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 9:36 pm:        It only matters that GOD knows truth...this board will decide...but GOD really knows...so I really do not loose any sleep over HH...they like the all other false teachers will answer to God for all their lies.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 9:45 pm:        “Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided.” If I had to pick one sentence; one statement from this entire board I would pick this one. Anyone with the slightest compassion for the human race should stand by this statement. Anyone that knows anything about human dignity should amen this statement. I pray that the entire world has the opportunity to examine this statement. I like it so much I’m going to print it again......................... “Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided.”   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1561 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.45 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:07 pm:        I so much agree...   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 959 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.91.109 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:34 pm:        It's worth repeating........and emphasizing......... “Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided.”   allforchrist New member Username: allforchrist Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.218.218.131 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:50 pm:        This says it all. Thank you.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1562 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.52.166 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 12:21 am:        and follow that trail...it is long and bloody...   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 10:29 am:        im not going to answer any of your questions to me untill you have enough respect to answer mine and quit talking down to me like im a stupid yokel!!!! goimg back to a post farther up the page ML you claim that BA has taught us to spank our children and even babies did you hear that yourself? because i must have missed it in my 19 years there he never taught us how to snd definatly never said to spank little babies . i also see that they kill people who did they kill? why would you try to make up things about a nonviolent people they teach above all else to love your enemies i went to a year of night teachings going over every point in the bible of how Jesus taught us to love those who hate us and what we would do if someone threatened us . i believe with my whole being that if you tonight went to BA house and started killing his children or raping his wife that he wouldnt lay a hand on you bit that he would pray to God for your soul ! so i dont believe and will not believe your made up story and if what you say is true why are you telling us call the police wont they help clear up the situation? the answer why you dont is because its not true! (Message edited by nevermind me on December 30, 2006) (Message edited by nevermind me on December 30, 2006)   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 961 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.228.14.171 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:38 am:        i believe with my whole being that if you tonight went to BA house and started killing his children or raping his wife that he wouldnt lay a hand on you Then I pity his wife and children!!!   nevermind_me New member Username: nevermind_me Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:43 am:        yes you may but your belief in killing those who come against you may not be right either you have to believe your beliefs i wouldnt let anyone come in my house either but i respect them for what they belive   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1563 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.53.18 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:44 am:        You need to read who the original statement came from....... There are more ways of killing people than shooting them with a gun...   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 962 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.228.14.171 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:58 am:        nevermind, Who said that I have a "belief in killing those who come against you"?????? You assume too much.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 399 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 3:09 pm:        you claim that BA has taught us to spank our children and even babies did you hear that yourself? because i must have missed it in my 19 years there he never taught us how to snd definatly never said to spank little babies . I was in that meeting. I heard BA say it with my own ears. I remember being shocked. Then like everything else, I told myself, "He is the Apostle, who am I to question it."   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 400 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 3:11 pm:        in my 19 years there How old were you when you left?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1569 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.97.132 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 3:27 pm:        truth hunter also heard the same thing...I heard the talk about spanking babies...   covenantwoman6 New member Username: covenantwoman6 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 24.195.101.245 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 4:00 pm:        seeking glory: thanks for posting the Ron Henzel article - it reminded me I wanted to print it out. I am finally free of the control and manipulation of the group I spent 20+ years of my life with. I'm fortunate to have friends on the "outside" that were once also "inside" and the help of a counselor. I believe the Lord provided all this for me because He knew my husband was not leaving at the same time and I would need support. Thank you all for being brave and faithful to keep this discussion board current - it has helped me greatly. The connection between the group I left and HH goes way back (most inside don't know this). A few years ago the pastor here reconnected with BA. This discussion board has given me the ability to see how profoundly similar their teachings are but it was never taken out to the point that HH took it. However, since the reconnection the Pastor here is studying BA's writings and is rapidly bringing his people "up to speed". Thank God I escaped when I did! Please pray for our marriage - I refuse to leave my husband but its been the greatest challenge of my life so far... He works for the group and we live in "church" owned property.   covenantwoman6 New member Username: covenantwoman6 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 24.195.101.245 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 4:04 pm:        I found a "must read" I'd like to share with anyone looking for answers - The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderan - I'd loan you mine but its more highlighter than not.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1571 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.97.132 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 4:08 pm:        praying for you...   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 407 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 10:15 pm:        covenantwoman6, we will pray for you, for your family, and that church. I glad that you are not to fearful to post. May God bless your courage and love for your husband. May he see the joy of knowing Jesus and His salvation in your life. May God protect you, body, spirit, and soul. God, please bring the truth to her husband, open his eyes. Save this church from deception and help them focus on you and the Gospel as it is written in the Bible. In Jesus name, Amen   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1579 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.88.169 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 12:42 am:        It is so easy to be decieved by HH...the front they put on...the show...most people take them at their word until it is too late....   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 783 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 5:49 am:        Hi covenantwoman, Greetings, and welcome. Hmmm .. I think your historic reference I understand. If so, I dropped in on your fellowship some years back during an outdoors country picnic. Now my heart was warmed when I heard of the reconnection - one that you view a different way. On your book reference, please let me just share that we did have a good amount of discussion here about the 'spiritual abuse' paradigms. We really were looking at their origins in the secularist anti-Christian Robert. J. Lifton. His ideas (which I view as faulty at core, attempting to justify man's enthronement of his own sovereignty over God) have been in the last few years picked up and repackaged within the 'Christian anti-cult' world and offered up as a new lens with which to look at Christian fellowships and communities and ministry. Now sharing this is not to belittle any specific concerns about any fellowship, community or group .. we are always accountable to seek the mind and heart of God as to where we connect, or disconnect. Covenant always runs very deep. However you may want to be extra cautious about embracing paradigms and a lens that is repackaged with a veneer of Bible and faith, and yet is at core the fruit of a raging unbelief that elevates psycho-babble-logical views. Over and above the word of God and the Christian faith and patterns and holiness to which we are called. Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1581 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.51.164 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 9:47 am:        faulty at core....we have heard that expression before...   covenantwoman6 New member Username: covenantwoman6 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 24.195.101.245 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 8:57 pm:        Praxaluh - Thanks for the welcome and for sharing your personal perception of the material in the book I suggested. In recent months I've read much, prayed much, and cried much. I wouldn't have suggested this book had I not believed it contained truth. The statement in your post "we did have a good amount of discussion here" leads me to ask - we/ who and here/where? May I also ask what your connection/concern is with HH?   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 792 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 9:55 pm:        Hi Covenantwoman, Greetings.. I do realize that your book suggestion was sincere. As were my concerns about those types of 'spiritual abuse' books in general. Let me give you an analogy. David Hunt wrote a book many years ago 'The Seduction of Christianity'. Now David Hunt is an uneven writer, however that book had deep perception about the trends in Christendom. How the occult was entering masked as Christian. Inner healing, visualization, memories stuff, meditation/trance states. Doorways to the occult. Possibility and probability and positively 4th street thinking . Various occult strains, such as word-of-faith sorcery, that were masked as Christian. Another concern is that in the psychological realm there is a lot similar that has gone on. The Psychoheresy ministry of Martin & Deidre Bobgan has often done a good job showing these problems. Secular psychology, incompatible with Christianity at core, is given a Christian garb. And I see a very similar problem with the 'spiritual abuse' movement. That a lot of underlying anti-Christian sentiment (eg. that would place Jesus and the apostles as spiritual abusers) is at the core of the movement. And similarly to the other stuff it starts as secularist and then takes on 'Christian' garb. Now that does not mean there is not some truth in such a book. However one must be slow to embrace theories that may not be all as they seem. We had some discussion on this forum about the Lifton secularist concepts of 'spiritual abuse'. Well it may have been more my monologues, offhand I do not remember. Maybe next year I can review a couple of threads. My years fully involved in HH actually go back to the early years to which you alluded. From joisey to Colorado, to when Texas was becoming the center. Even when I was no longer involved, I kept some contact, especially with the family I was closest to and the ministry folks there. And myself and other friends (newbie or returnee) have been visitors at various times through the 90's and this decade. When I saw this forum, I at first thought it might be the long-awaited "hello, how are you doing" social network of folks who had been friends in earlier years. Not really, though. And as time went on, I saw there were very deep problems among the oppositionalists, that something was not right in oppo-land. So I felt it was important to try to offer some balance, I was just flabbergasted that a sanctified and special Christian community would be attacked so unfairly. (Even if one disagreed with a dozen core doctrines and beliefs.) Let me stop at this point for now. Shalom, Praxaluh   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:08 pm:        I was just flabbergasted that a sanctified and special Christian community would be attacked so unfairly. (Even if one disagreed with a dozen core doctrines and beliefs.) And I was flabbergasted at how this Christian community could HURT so many people   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 99 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:11 pm:        They attack God's children. They now get a dose themselves. And they can't handle it. The truth has them running for cover. They are being exposed. They can't hide anymore. They can't hide their dirty deeds anymore.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:12 pm:        “Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided.”   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 822 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:33 pm:        Mr. VainlySeekingForGlory, Never in the recorded history of mankind has there been a 'group' with a perfect record of never alienating anyone. Your boldfaced statement is simply put, silly. There simply isn't a single Church out there that doesn't have a hand full of ex-members who think they are evil devils. According to your foolish statement, Christianity should abandoned.   seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:39 pm:        “Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided.”   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 823 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:53 pm:        OK, and what group/denomination are you affiliated with? Down through the centuries Christianity has broken, or killed, many. You must either renounce Christ, or consider yourself a liar. What shall it be????   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1595 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.62.189 Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 11:25 pm:        So you renounce Christ and start breaking people, shunning people. breaking up families...lol... You sound like HH...bloodthristy...   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 357 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.162.115.154 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 2:41 pm:        Hey Everyone, Thanks Prax for the kind words. I do disagree with most of what you post however I do agree every effert should be taken to disagree in an agreeable way. ML,SG,FH...I think you know that I agree with most everything you post and I do not feel like I am able to bring correction to you without pointing it right back to myself. I would offer couple of suggestions. Please refrain from the "death covenant" usage. There are other phrases that communicate the same message such as commitment "till death do us part" or making a "covenant unto death". Both statements show the magnitude of the commitments shown in HH. This would also allow Prax the ability to move on to another topic. Sister Alvear when you say that HH kills babies I know you are speaking of "killing the baby" meaning your lifes work in Brazil. However, if you post this out of context it does not communicate what you really mean. (I think I have found a way to take the trip to Brazil in the next year or so and I am looking forward to seeing what God is doing there.) I am not suggesting that anyone comprise or hide the truth, however, we should encourage each other to speak the truth in love. Dowen, You posted..."There simply isn't a single Church out there that doesn't have a hand full of ex-members who think they are evil devils. According to your foolish statement, Christianity should abandoned." Little Brother, I wish it were just a hand full of ex-members. The truth is there are hundreds of ex-members and everyone left hurt and disalusioned. Out of a couple of hundred that I personally knew half of them are not in any church today. The other half have struggled to overcome that their only hope for salvation is to return to submit to the leadership in HH. I think most of those posting would confirm this. How about it FH,SG,TH can you think of anyone that left on good terms? Do you agree that there have been hundreds of ex-members and not a handful? Happy to enter 2007..... Under Grace   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1623 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.167 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:22 pm:        thanks I will be more careful...sometimes I forget that not all understand HH lingo... Happy New Year to all...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 826 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:29 pm:        Good grief. Your lies have nothing to do with "HH lingo".   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1624 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.167 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:37 pm:        I have told no lies...   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 358 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.162.115.154 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:12 pm:        Dowen, I do hope you and your family have a blessed year in 2007. Perhaps you could weigh in on the comment in the above post. Do you honestly believe that there are only a handful of dissenters? I fully understand that most ex-members do not post on this discussion board for a variety of reasons. Lack of public discussions does not diminish the number of people that have left nor does it diminish the depth of hurt after they leave. Please do not let your discussion with ML skirt this question. Under Grace   seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 106 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 9:40 pm:        Please refrain from the "death covenant" usage. There are other phrases that communicate the same message such as commitment "till death do us part" or making a "covenant unto death". Both statements show the magnitude of the commitments shown in HH. O.K. Under Grace, I will use the term ‘covenant unto death’ from here on out. They want you to sign a ‘covenant unto death’ paper agreeing to never leave THEIR church even to go to another Christian church. You must agree to stay with THEM, their little group, until ‘Death do you part’ just like in a marriage. I am not suggesting that anyone comprise or hide the truth, however, we should encourage each other to speak the truth in love. I think many here started out speaking the truth in love but they were met with rage and fury by DOwen and Prax. It has slowly escalated to the point it is now because no matter how sincere the poster is, Prax and DOwen try to disqualify and humiliate the poster. I just pray that the general reader can see through all the mess and figure out the message. And from what I’m told most readers can do just that and we are getting our message out to those folks interested. How about it FH,SG,TH can you think of anyone that left on good terms? Do you agree that there have been hundreds of ex-members and not a handful? YES......HUNDREDS!!! A baptized member simply cannot leave on good terms. You just can’t. They will not allow you to leave. If you insist on leaving then they turn against you, disassociate you and your family, and warn you that you are walking out on God! They will not just pat you on the back and say “good luck, come back to see us when you can”. No Never! You are divorcing them and you are going to be punished. Now children of elders, like Daniel Owen (DOwen), that leave before becoming members are complete opposites. They have not signed the covenant paper so they are exempt Out of a couple of hundred that I personally knew half of them are not in any church today. The other half has struggled....... Please note. The leaders and elders of Homestead Heritage cause many to stumble with their iniquitous ways of running a ‘church’ and I know God has a few millstones he will be passing out to the leaders when they stand before him. May God have mercy on their souls.   cowboy2134 New member Username: cowboy2134 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 68.33.165.83 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 11:17 pm:        I have been to Homestead many times in the past few years and have many new friends there. WOW! After reading all of the postings here I am in shock! I have to ask the question, what would Jesus do? What would he say about all this. Jesus wants us to Love one another. From what I have read I am sure not feeling the love. I know that none of us are perfect and I am so glad Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins. I had been thinking of maybe living in Waco someday and maybe being a part of Homestead, but now, I will sure have to pray about it lots. I will keep reading all of your postings. I pray you will be honest and truthful.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 805 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 11:30 pm:        First let me correct one major error. I will speak for myself, although I believe it generally applies similarly to Daniel. S_G, "met with rage and fury by .. Prax .. no matter how sincere the poster is, Prax .. try to disqualify and humiliate the poster. " This is simply false. Those who have not been part of the blaspheming-lie crew I have always approached cordially. My original positive hope for a forum, until I learned the factnet problems ... good discussion. I'll give three names, recent posters, just to be clear. Under_Grace, Yeoman and the newbie Covenantwoman. (Prepare for flak, folks, for my using you as ensamples :-) All speak of their distance and difficulties with HH yet all have spoken reasonable, often honourable, words on the forum. My heart truly goes out to covwoman, even if I sense she may be erring to separate from her fellowship and family and that she could seek to be informed by other than the 'spiritual abuse' crew. Those posters, and others, might even have great distance from HH (or a related fellowship), seemingly irreparable. Yet from what can be gleamed here, they have not trapped themselves in a box with their tongue aflame. They are, I will go out to say, forum friends, even if we disagree on some matters 99 44/100%. We disagree as friends seeking to know God's will. Maybe they will reconcile tomorrow nicely with HH or their family or their fellowship. Maybe they will share some words of substance to listening ears. Maybe God will honor their seeking and move in any one of a hundred ways that we do not know today. God is sovereign. So please, I will speak very directly about certain items where my conviction is that the breach is great. Where light and darkness are really having a hard time getting along. The Holy Spirit has impelled me to take a strong stand. In other places, where folks are trying to be real before God, humble .. whether they are in HH, friendly or a type of cordial opposition, God keeps my heart and spirit in check towards them. They are my friends, at least I see them that way, even if we share about some things from different perspectives. Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 410 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.49 Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 6:03 am:        Welcome to this forum Cowboy! UG: How about it FH,SG,TH can you think of anyone that left on good terms? Do you agree that there have been hundreds of ex-members and not a handful? Hundreds There are MANY who do not post for various reasons, but I have had contact with many of them since I left. First of all, there are our spouses, are grown children. Then there are those who do not have internet in their homes, (but are reading at the library and friends’ homes, etc and thanking us and encouraging us to continue.) There are those speaking out in other ways or ministering to new ex-members and have their hands full just doing that. There are those with family in HH, many of them, who are leaving it to us, so they do not offend their families or cause complications between their family and the leaders. Then there are many, (quite a few have written to me,) that have been badgered enough when they were members, and are not ready to go through more of the same here on this board. Others, who have written are just plain hurt and scared still. (They will heal and their turn will come, just as it has mine.) There are those who are way too busy, but if you go back through the threads, you will see many more have bothered to get a log in ID to voice their views, but are not here writing continually. Now how many who raised children in HH, who took the vows and lived them for four years or more as adults, are here or anywhere defending HH doctrines? Out of the many who took the vows and managed to leave, (not an easy thing to do,)...how many? I haven't heard from any: I haven't even heard OF any. If you are out there, speak up. (Prax, did you take the vows?) I have left churches before after being there long enough to see doctrinal differences, but we ALWAYS remained friendly. The difference is HH, not us. I still consider the members of HH to be my friends. They are good people. But HH doctrines of extreme authority and abuses are not minor and should not taken lightly. If leaders can not be upfront with a statement of faith then visitors; beware. If members can not continue their relationships with those who left; beware. If they leave a trail of broken and hurting; beware. (Message edited by foreverhis on January 03, 2007)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1636 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.185 Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 8:34 am:        I would pray much...and realize eveything that shines is not gold...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1637 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.185 Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 8:39 am:        and earlier when I read your post Cowboy I thought you might want to know that Prax has once been a member and so has daniel... They have reasons for posting the way they do but go there and live they will not...neither will they submot to jesus in the flesh message... Some of the people there are sweet, kind and beautiful christians BUT without them even realizing they are brainwashed...the longer you are around them the more you will catch on...Please pray and pray much...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 806 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:37 pm:        Hi Cowboy, Welcome and greetings. "I know that none of us are perfect and I am so glad Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins." Amen. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 809 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 2:55 pm:        Hi Under_grace, Thanks for you words of Jan 2 above about proper words and phrases. May they be understood and fully accepted and received, 100%, here and in all venues. In Jesus name, Praxaluh   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 359 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.155.31.20 Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 10:36 pm:        Hey Cowboy, Welcome to the discussion board. Do not let some of the language keep you from reading and considering what these posters have to say. I was a member in HH for many years and if I were you I would take my time before joining any community fellowship to see if it is right for you. The main thing is you cannot and will not find out what HH believes until you join. Also, know that for everyone person posting the error in HH doctrine and practices there are a hundred who cannot or will not post, not because they do not agree with FH, SG, ML or UG but because they are to hurt or are simply not willing to take the criticism that is offered when they do. Talk to some ex-members of HH. At one time BA told a group wanting to join HH to go talk with an ex-member and find out what they were getting into. Pray compare doctrines to scripture. There are numerous posts with examples of HH literature. Read and decide for yourself. ML said that Prax and Dowen were ex-members and now refused to submit to HH. Prax was a part of HH in the early years. He has by his testimony kept up with some members and visited some fairs etc. Dowen was raised in HH but was never baptized and did not make the covenant commitment (like Ruth did to Naomi). It is my understanding that Dowen attends another church in the Waco area and works with his dad who is an Elder in HH. ML did not join HH although she spent several months there and had some HH members come to Brazil. FH and her husband were members for seven years I think. SG was a former member. Share your thoughts as they are welcome. God bless you in finding a place to pour out your life for our Savior and Lord. Where ever God puts geographically the safest place is always...... Under Grace   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 360 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.155.31.20 Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 11:34 pm:        Dowen, I am not trying to back you in a corner. You mentioned a handful of ex-members and I believe it is hundreds. It is a fair question, do you really believe that there are only a few dissatisfied ex-members? One of the most disturbing things about those leaving HH is that out of the hundreds of people leaving Prax seems to be one of few who is unscathed. All of the people that I personally know were hurt emotionally and spiritually with many not willing or not able to continue a relationship with the Lord or with His Body. FH, SG, ML thanks for confirming the numbers. Dowen wouldn’t you agree that something is foundationally wrong when there are as many people out as there are in? With 99% of those coming out being hurt and damaged spiritually and emotionally and many leaving the faith all together do you not see something wrong with this picture? Please answer. Under Grace   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 361 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.155.31.20 Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 11:38 pm:        Prax, I do appreciate the kind words. Hopefully, we can continue to disagree in an agreeable way. With that thought in mind. Would you weigh in on the question I have asked Dowen? God Bless you. Under Grace   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1647 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.121.173 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 7:35 am:        I was asscoiated with HH several years, Twice they were in Brazil living here for several months and we made several trips to the Philipines with some of them. Besides that I have friends that have live there and have had contact with people before I ever went there that told me things about HH...people that had lived there and had been associated with them. I still am in contact with people that have lived there. I thank the Lord for the few that were able to pick up the peices and go on, sadly others were never able to. One of the deep problems among many is the embedded teaching that 1, Where would they go even if things and not up to par since HH has so much more of God's revelation that anywhere else. My own missionary mom said those exact words to me...and she was not the only one that said that. So that means in the people's hearts they know (some more than others) that there are deep problems there but the "brainwashing" that HH is so much ahead of other churches there would really be no place to go even if they wanted out. I hate to say this but I will. That kind of thinking is cult thing. My JW friends have told me the same exact words... Another thing is the vow unto death do us part...marrying a man made church...hangs over their heads like a cloud...fear grips their heart for they have been told to leave is to divorce God. Now that is not Bible. That is cult thinking. To stop serving Jesus and serve Budda is divorcing God...If HH has truth in some areas that is good. But to say that they have MORE truth than the rest of God's people is not right. There are areas all of us can grow in Christ. Not even Prax is saved according to HH doctrine. No one that writes here is saved according to HH doctrine. All sincere people will come to HH in the last days asking for spiritual bread according to HH. That too is cultish teachings...Most all cults teach that. You have to get permission to bring someone to a Sunday service there or a Friday night group meeting. NO service is an open service in HH. If you do not believe me show up late and try to get in a Sunday meeting. Bring several groups with you. If I am lying please let me know Under Grace for that was the way it was. I do hope they have changed. There are many good people in HH...some were misfits in life others gave up all to take their vows there...I have never said anything bad about the common people there. They really do think they have a "special" mission...whether it is promoting the fair or whatever they are workers...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1648 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.121.173 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 7:37 am:        I too asked them on several occasions about their double standard...one thing was mentioned here about wood stoves. I did not aske them about that but asked them about power tools I saw them using and at the shop where visitors go they were using hand tools. It doesn't matter to me so Prax doesn't have to go into a long spill about the glories of hand tools. I have no problem with electric tools or hand tools...electric stoves or wood stoves...I have a problem when a person presents one thing as a way of life and in reality live something else. I am sorry but that has always bothered me. It bothers me teaching people to lie about what they believe to others or covering up what they believe. I just belive that no matter how we believe we can be honest about it. We don't have to have "hidden" doctrines...classify people on levels...have invented "temple" patterns. Always leading the simple and not so simple into a belief that they are "fixing" to explode all over the earth...and it is coming to pass this and that... I stayed long enough to see and KNOW it is cultish and their teachings have the people as a whole thinking that HH is God's voice to the earth. If I would have listened to their voice...my home would be broken up, my children scattered to the 4 winds and both the work in the Philippines and Brazil in peices...I am glad I listened to God's voice.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 823 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 9:46 am:        Under_grace, just a couple of little comments. First, most welcome. I appreciate that you have been moderate in tone even on small items as well as big ones. (Thinking about what I call the 'chopped liver' comment, which you simply gracefully took off the table, and even apologized. It wasn't a real biggie and you handled it with a humble aplomb.) 'ML said ... refused to submit to HH.' U_G, I would appreciate if you would not simply repeat Mrs. Alvear's representations about me. For obvious reasons. From our view she speaks with a forked tongue in every matter in regards to HH. Even putting that aside she does not have any special insight about my relationship with HH. None that you do not have, and her glasses on put on tight. So please use your own words, not hers. Oh, and I have explained a couple of times that I can thank this forum for really being an aide, a help, a positive spur, to my relationship with HH. When I saw the impoverishment of the embittered it really opened my eyes a lot. I hope that is true for a number of the readers here, that what is designed for ill, God uses for good. There is a flip-side to what you share above. The 99% stuff. It simply isn't true. Many folks who have been involved have stayed warm, appreciative, respectful to HH. They have visited and kept in touch in edifying manners, even with considerations to reconnecting in fullness. However the simpaticos (former members and folks touched, both) are unlikely to post on this forum or be a part of the oppositional world. Some would have a Holy-Spirit-shield in place as a guard against the sicker stuff here. They are taking a stricter stance than I not to allow the corruption of good manners through evil communications (a concern even if one goal is to counter the evil communications). Every situation is individual and unique. Surely many people left in difficult circumstances, spiritually or personally, yet many, many have used that as a spur to seek to be closer to God in any and all ways and days. (Perhaps yourself as well, God knows.) Afaik none of the people that left HH that I knew personally have joined the crusade of the oppositionals. (I do know some who find this whole thing an abomination.) The variety of current activities is large, from oneness denominations to a variety of churches to some struggling in the ways you indicate. As an example, two close friends out west have been quite involved in UPC churches and my original hope with an 'ex-pat' forum would be a - 'hello, how has God touched your life' communication with them, if they were around. Who knows, perhaps a little respectful and sanctified chat about all the various issues. Another dropped in for a chat during a Messianic conference some years back in the midwest, a brother to whom my heart is always warm. Others have been involved here and there, sometimes with surprising recontacts, as in the picnic upstate that I mentioned. I will say one thing. Most everybody whose life is touched by HH realizes that something very special is involved there. The latter part of my post seems to be related to your question to Daniel. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on January 05, 2007)   truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 315 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:48 am:        When I left HH, I asked if we could remain friends and brothers, I was told NO. I still held onto hope that that would change if I didn't speak out against them, but to them it made no difference I was lost either way. I tried to take the easy road for an entire year........ my slate was clean in HH's leaders own words... but still I was rejected and scorned. But it was all for the good, I came to see that holding on to a hope that I would one day be good enough to be their friend if I obeyed every law that they imposed on me, was a false hope. So I speak out so others don't loose their family as I did.   pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 11:43 am:        it seems to me that HH is airtight: by that I mean if you, say, play tennis and you make up the rules you want to play by, then that's that. from the outside people can say, hey, that's not tennis, but from the inside what they say doesnt matter because they are playing by thier own rules...even if you say that their rules are not in harmony with the Bible, once again, they have made the rules for understanding the Bible as well. Personally I think that while the apostles said this thing was not done in a corner...HH is very much in a "corner." if you believe that your leader is an apostle then everything people say against him is just persecution.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1652 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.68.85 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 1:49 pm:        Time will prove who is right and who is wrong concerning HH... Are they still selling stoves for Y2K?   seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 109 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:14 pm:        Cult hugger aka Prax said...... Many folks who have been involved have stayed warm, appreciative and respectful to HH. They have visited and kept in touch in edifying manners, even with considerations to reconnecting in fullness. SG says....... During my many years there I cannot remember ONE SINGLE person that was introduced to me that was a former member that was staying in touch and/or visiting. NOT ONE...... NEVER. Cult Hugger said........ Oh, and I have explained a couple of times that I can thank this forum for really being an aide, a help, a positive spur, to my relationship with HH. SG says........But of course they open their arms to you. You are their defense. You are trying to diminish the testimonies of former members and HH loves you for it. You are now as guilty as they are for the hurt and pain they have caused so many because you promote their schema. Cult Hugger said.... I will say one thing. Most everybody whose life is touched by HH realizes that something very special is involved there. SG says.........WRONG.....Most who are involved with HH and leave will tell you there is something very WRONG there. That’s why we keep posting; to tell the world to beware of the place and the horrible doctrines they force on the members.   seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:21 pm:        I speak from recent experence. Prax speaks from very distant memory. BIG DIFFERENCE!   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1656 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.91.123 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:25 pm:        None of my minister friends that I took to visit there felt anything special there. They all advised me to get out and never go back to that place. Not because of the everyday people but because of jesus in the flesh messages and many other false teachings...None of my friends want to go back...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1658 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.91.123 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:32 pm:        I too speak from recent experience...Prax's distant memory fails him...we have noticed how he wavers...cannot be one of them, will not be one of them, does not even believe like they believe...lol and for sure is not joining them... My husband said he gets and a in defending lies...Sounds like some paid lawyer that will defend anything... If HH was what he says it is then he would be there...it is not so he is not there...   cowboy2134 New member Username: cowboy2134 Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 68.33.165.83 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:59 pm:        I have read most of the postings here and I keep reading something about taking a oath or vow. At what time is a person ask to take a vow or oath for HH? Is it something written that a person has to sign? I have never heard of this but may ask about it the next time I visit HH. I have been to HH many times in the past few years and have some really great friends there. Everyone there seems to be always in such a great mood. From the sounds of these postings that is all a front. Awaiting anyones reply.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 827 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 11:48 pm:        Hi Cowboy, Your thoughts here are a bit of fresh air, may a seeking and innocence and humility before God be your path and may you be held up and protected from any snares, in Jesus name. I remember once a brother who was really considering a lot of opposition. In certain days and ways we could entertain the objections laid forth by the 'anti-missionaries' complaining about this or that aspect of being in a 'cult'. (Please note, paraphrasing involved here.) He was asked how he felt when God moved and there was worship and praise and he was with the brethren. Fantastic, happy, peaceful was his reply. And then, what is your sense when you are mulling over, weighing, embracing all the objections (intellectual, spiritual, whatever). Working with those trying so hard to speak such ill. Oh, not peaceful at all, upset, ill at ease. .... Then the choice is yours. ---------------- Whatever one's view of HH, thinking of the lives of the brethren as some sort of 'front' is simply downright silly. The brethren are deeply and fully dedicated to God and to one another. There is a zeal and earnestness that others sense, and has even affected people with little contact long ago, who wonder how that hunger for God and sense of service can come to place in their own local churches and fellowships and circles of friends. Yet sometimes those who have burned bridges with that beautiful life of dedication and sanctity and sharing and service will try to burn the bridges of others as well. This is human nature. Many oppose for many reasons, not always pretty. May the Lord Jesus give the grace and touch from God to always seek and hear His voice. Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh PS. S_G, thank you for all the insincere and floppy and cumbersome imitative efforts. And I would much prefer you call me names, even if pretty dumb, than blaspheme the holy things of God.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 420 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:00 am:        SG says....... During my many years there I can not remember ONE SINGLE person that was introduced to me that was a former member that was staying in touch and/or visiting. NOT ONE...... NEVER. Same here. Prax... Read Garden of God and How Do You Know. The "husbandmen" don't plow, furrow, or plant, etc. until the covenant vows are taken. The bride and the groom can't "know" each other until the covenant vows are taken. I didn't really "know" anything about how HH functions until I saw it up close. You won't see that until you have been there as a "vowed" member, married and in obedience to HH for a quite a while.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 421 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:07 am:        The difference is in whether or not there has been a breaking of vows. In General...people who have not broken the vows can come back for a friendly visit. It is also those people who have not had the same experiences, the same "knowing" of what life in subjection to the husbandmen comes to mean. They don't have THOSE experiences to look back on.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 422 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:21 am:        Being Happy If you are a very submissive and have a broken self-will you will accept anything they hand you with thanksgiving in your heart and carry honor for them even if they "slap you in the face." They are there to help you die-to-self. So it all seems "right." You are taking up your cross and they will nail your hands to it for you. The more it hurts the better. You tell yourself the "flesh" will die. If anything in you begins to rise up, or you keep feeling this pain, then you still have a way to go. You keep picking up your cross daily; keep keeping on. Press harder, sacrifice more; in HH terms "stretch further." The submission becomes deeper, the loyalty stronger, the unwillingness to doubt them and the inclination to doubt yourself becomes automatic. When things get tough and you begin to entertain a doubt that "just maybe what they did to brother so and so, or even your daughter, wasn't “right," a tinge of guilt for even thinking such a thing will stop that kind of thinking. If you walk in perfect submission, (body heart, and soul,) the chance that you will personally see just how hard they can be on you is reduced... but eventually you will be tested. It is a "growing" process and the plowing will go deeper and deeper. At each level the brokenness of the ground and its ability to accept any kind of seeds the husbandmen wish to plant is greater. They will water it and pull weeds, (weeds...like your taking any thought of yourself... or anything they define as worldly etc.) You die an even greater death to yourself each step along the way. NOW, if this WAS God that you are giving up your life for... IF it is Him that is doing the plowing etc. there would be no abuse; because God is not an abuser. That is exactly what you have been taught to believe; that is God doing the plowing. So if you see anything that even looks like abuse, you know you are mistaken. "God is not an abuser, God is not an abuser...again God is not an abuser.... that brother must have needed it. If is me...I must of needed it. The problem is we are dealing with human beings. So limits must be set or abuses can and most likely will happen; if not on purpose, then mistakably. So where are the limits? Who sets them?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 423 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:24 am:        If I believe I am to lay down my life for another, should there be ANY considerations? If a person is willing to lay down his life for me without question, what are MY limits? If you say there are Biblical limits, then who's interpretation?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 424 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:27 am:        Let's say you are supposed to lay down your life for me... I want a new barn built... I expect you to support your family working 40-50 week. That is only 8 to 10 hours a day five days a week. There are 168 hour in a week.... You have plenty of time to build this barn. You only need a max of four hours of night to sleep, coming and going that’s five hours, a couple hours for other stuff and we should have this barn built in no time. Your young, even a few nights without sleep won't kill ya, and even if it does... your laying down your life remember. Now let's say it's not for me, it's for God. God will be glorified; it will move the community forward. I am not being selfish. Besides the important thing here is that you can lay down your cross and you can also crucify the flesh. It's not that I, or GOD or the community NEED this barn as much as it is you need a place to lay it all down. Again, where are the limits?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 425 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:28 am:        Where are the limits? ...because after this barn is done, you will need to have another place to lay it down. Now, YOU can’t choose the place, God has showed us that you won't require enough of yourself to cause “death.” You can nail that first hand to the cross, but that second hand... that takes some one else. It takes some one willing to take you farther than you would go yourself. For this to work, your place service needs to be decided for you. If it isn't difficult enough or long enough... actually if you enjoy it enough to "choose" it, then it isn't much of a sacrifice after all. You know what, if you can go to bed with anything left... then you didn't give it all. And remember you need to pick this cross up daily. (Message edited by ForeverHis on January 06, 2007)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 426 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:32 am:        Oh... you think have another responsibility... Well, that will take care of itself. Because God told me that this has to be done in two weeks, and there is no way possible for you to do both. Don't worry, trust God. Watch and see. It didn't work out? Well then dear brother, it is not because God didn't want it too. Search your heart. Is there something in you?? When you were working, were you worried about the other thing... a lack of faith maybe? Could it be that you did not offer a FULL sacrifice? Did you hold anything back? What was your attitude? Were you thankful enough to be the work? Well, there has to be something, because God is faithful. Keep searching your heart, God will show you.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 427 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:35 am:        ME: You see, a dead man, one who has died to himself, only has "God's" will on his mind and heart. Not only does God not abuse; NO ONE can abuse a dead man.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 428 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:37 am:        Since God comes before spouse and family, they will get to make their sacrifice too. They can take up the slack for you while you do the will of God AND they can sacrifice fishing trips with their dad, date nights with their husbands, evenings at home with the family all together etc. Everyone has their place of submission and sacrifice. This is theirs. But remember... if your son rebels in his adolescence... it wasn't because you weren't there while he was growing up. It is because your sacrifice needed to be even fuller than it was.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 429 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:38 am:        All the while you are sooo HAPPY that you have a place where people are helping you lay down your life. (If you aren’t then check your heart. While your checking, just keep smiling. The feeling will pass, because you know deep down inside this is what you want, and THAT makes you happy.)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 430 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.116 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 7:53 am:        That is the Good life in HH. Make a big mistake, or choose to not follow a few “patterns” (remember their not laws, just patterns,) or question their authority to tell you whatever they say you need to do… Then be ready to say, “Thank you Jesus, I need that” AND get it right the next time; or your whole family could suffer for your actions. Remember your dying to yourself, putting God first. The flesh won’t like it. So the vows will help keep you there no matter how much is given for you to take. No one can prepare you for what you’re going to have to take and see your family take. There are no limits. Not even death itself.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 433 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.173 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 12:09 pm:        Everyone there seems to be always in such a great mood. From the sounds of these postings that is all a front. Awaiting anyone’s reply. Cowboy I would never say it is ALL a front. You are there with people who were interested in a Christian community because they loved the Lord and were dedicated to serve Him. The members themselves are some of the sweetest people! (I have friends like that here in Kentucky, but we don't see each other nearly every day and our lives aren't as entwined.) Having a concentration of these sweet people around you can be quite heady. Smile. The other face of the coin is that the smiles are not ALWAYS real. When I was there I didn't have the freedom to be real with my feelings. I learned that I couldn't be fine..."under the circumstances." In fact one HEAVY time in my life an elder asked me how I was doing. I said fine under the circumstances. He looked at me as serious as could be and said, "Then what are you doing UNDER there." Now, this brother knew what was going on in my life, so this wasn't a joke. I said, "I am sorry," and I never complained again. One time I was at the fair grounds very early in the morning before opening. There was a teenage girl alone in the food booth. She was the first one to arrive. Her eyes were red and swollen. Here face was blotchy and you could tell she had been crying really hard. Her eyes hung with more tears she was trying not to shed. Being a mom of a young girl myself, I asked her if she was ok and asked her if I could do anything for her. She hung her head and shook it. I asked again and the tears started falling. She went out the door looking distraught and scared. Not wanting to push, I went about what I was there for and prayed for her conintualy from my heart. When the time came for me to sit in the candle dipping booth right before opening, I was still thinking about her. The pastor was talking to some men across the path. He walk over to me and without asking me what was wrong he rebuked me for being sullen and told me to put a smile on my face or go home. You have to be there a long time to learn their doctrines, but it doesn't take long to see that their public image is more than important. There ARE good times. Being with people you love is a great reason to smile. I would hate for you to think that everyone is unhappy all the time. That just isn't true. But don't think they are happier than anyone else or that they have found some type of utopia.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1660 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.40.187 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 12:16 pm:        Cowboy: The "good mood" status is for visitors...stay around long enough and you will see a show you have never seen in any other church...you may have to stay around a while for now I am sure their "front" is very controlled....I stayed around long enough to see screaming, finger pointing many times, not only screaming but screaming to the top of lungs at people...JS screamed at my husband...my husband said to me, "if this is what they have to offer behind their "perfect" front then I want none of it." HW was screaming so loud at somebody on the phone we heard him in our hotel room and my husband said, "come here, Janice, listen to this..." then my husband said "we saw BA scream out and stomp out in a meeting...dismiss the meeting in anger. No, Janice we do not want to be a part of this." That was not all the screaming we witnessed...I personally as a missionary we so impressed at first by the front but as time passed and we witnessed episode after episode…it finally became clear that the crucifying yourself is not in a biblical context like most of their doctrine is not, crucifying yourself is letting HH decide how to “break” you…not a biblical brokenness…but a dangerous cult brokenness a vow to leaders that I found to be unbroken themselves. I am so thankful to God and his many pastors and children that were patient with us to let us find out for ourselves what scores of people had already told us…I just could not believe in that little village so much harm could be done until I witnessed it time and time again. I heard them put down scores of men and women of God. It seemed to me that they want to convince everyone of their high level of knowledge…all books from other Christian authors are discouraged as a whole. It is only healthy to read their revelations. One lady from there had Irvin Baxter Endtime Magazine and she hid it! I went to one person's house they had a readers digest and an excuse was made for it. If you are prepared to live in a whole world prepared by HH patterns then go there. If you want to live in God's world and follow His teachings then steer away from HH... You cannot serve God and man made patterns...they do not mix...   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 434 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.173 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 12:32 pm:        Pilgim: it seems to me that HH is airtight: by that I mean if you, say, play tennis and you make up the rules you want to play by, then that's that. from the outside people can say, hey, that's not tennis, but from the inside what they say doesnt matter because they are playing by their own rules...even if you say that their rules are not in harmony with the Bible, once again, they have made the rules for understanding the Bible as well. Personally I think that while the apostles said this thing was not done in a corner...HH is very much in a "corner." if you believe that your leader is an apostle then everything people say against him is just persecution. You are very insightful. Yes. They aren't shouting their gospel from the rood top. In fact they aren't even posting it on one of their many websites. I am glad that they have the freedom in this country to believe as they wish. I only hope that they would be a lot more forthcoming with it sooner when people are interested in joining. I think a person should be able to count the cost before they have paid them. They ought to know the rules of the tennis game before they agree to play for the rest of their lives. When I was there it was just like you said. My mind was closed to any truth in opposition. If the Apostle said it; it was because God said it. His truth was THE truth and anything else was a witch hunt. My mind wouldn't consider we could be wrong. See the Glass House thread.   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 371 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.193.215.136 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:34 am:        Dowen, I am repeating myself and try again. "I am not trying to back you in a corner. You mentioned a handful of ex-members and I believe it is hundreds. It is a fair question, do you really believe that there are only a few dissatisfied ex-members? One of the most disturbing things about those leaving HH is that out of the hundreds of people leaving Prax seems to be one of few who is unscathed. All of the people that I personally know were hurt emotionally and spiritually with many not willing or not able to continue a relationship with the Lord or with His Body. FH, SG, ML thanks for confirming the numbers. Dowen wouldn’t you agree that something is foundationally wrong when there are as many people out as there are in? With 99% of those coming out being hurt and damaged spiritually and emotionally and many leaving the faith all together do you not see something wrong with this picture?" Please answer. Under Grace   pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.112.125.158 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:09 pm:        while the interior debate here is hot and heavy anyone reading these posts who is trying to decide whether or not to join HH I think will almost always be scared away. the anti-HH people just have alot more amunition.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 914 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:00 pm:        Hi Folks, It is a mistake for the oppos here to assume that readers put on their glasses. The oppos do try to reinforce each other in various plaints, however readers with a heart for God are not "scared away" from the move of Go's spirit very easily. ====== I remember when I was wondering if HH might be the place where God was calling me. And I was hesitant. Wanted to be 'scared away'. So I read books like "The Mind Possessed" to try to convince myself that this could not be from God. However, ultimately I had a hunger and the love and grace and even the Holy Spirit conviction were far more attractive than the nattering nabobs of psychobabbleism. And I believe that is true for many readers. And even now, I know that the impoverished nature of the attacks, the 'scared aways' here, have only made me far more aware of the significance and truths and love that emanate from the HH community. God's remnant people will always hear His voice. Shalom, Praxaluh   pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:55 pm:        Prax, just to correct you a little, in the new test. there are no remnant people. that's the Jews.   not_scared Junior Member Username: not_scared Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.176.85 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:18 pm:        yes prax, Gods Spirit was moving me also when i met hh. it was awesome. i got involved and did lots of reading and personal maturing. lots of indoctrination also. what informs you conforms you...years later i looked around and Gods Spirit had done left. so i followed Him again.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 918 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 3:42 am:        Hi Pilgrim16, Hope you don't mind if I stick to the Bible . Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Shalom, Praxaluh   pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 6:33 am:        woaoo prax, rom. 11:5 is plainly the Jews. as to rev. 12:17, check Vines...the R.V translates "remnant" more correctly as "the rest." the greek does not say this is a "remnant" in the sense that you used it...as the only remaining righteous ones.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 919 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 9:09 am:        Hi Pilgrim, Please also consider .. Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. John Gill (often the most astute commentary) nicely relates this to .. Amos 9:12 - That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. Romans references a 'remnant' of the Jews, such as many of my brethren in faith .. and with Gentiles too not all are "according to the election of grace." You likely agree conceptually unless you are holding to a universalist view. Since "the rest" is virtually synonymous with "the remnant" it is hard to figure out your objection to the Revelation verses. You would have to spell out why you are trying to correct the Bible from Vines and the significance of your 'correction'. However we are getting a smidgen technical here, although it is fascinating and a spur to study. Shalom, Praxaluh

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