| Author | Message | ||
     boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
I don't care about being anonymous but I also don't want my name showing up in a google search. My initials are DES and my grandmother is Judy, one of the two founders. That being said, I am 21 years old and no longer live in the Community of Jesus. I have read extensively the posts on this forum regarding the experiences many have had with the Community. I wish to say that my condolences go out to those who suffered physical and emotional abuse during their time there. I knew about this long before I ever read from this site, and it is true and horrible. I certainly never experienced the abuse that some of those who lived there who were older than I did, and indeed also did not have as hard a time as did many of those who were of my same age or even younger. What I will say, however, is that I have a very different opinion of the place than do many of you who have posted on this forum. I believe that the Community is great for some, and horrible for others. Some people truly do not belong there, and I am one of them, as is my father and many of you. Others, however, like my mother Betsy, and many people there who I still love and respect, truly thrive on the Community's way of life, and are better people because of it. Her parents moved there and stayed there not out of some fear of hell or obedience, but out of a genuine love for the lifestyle that was provided by the Community. There are dozens of other families who feel the same way. All that being said, I believe it is safe to say that the Community has helped as many; if not more; people than it has hurt. Where the Community goes wrong; and this is as evident today as it ever was; is its tendency to force its ways upon those who are exposed to it at an early age. As "exmonk" pointed out, there was a certain religious sect that required its young members to go out into the real world and decide for themselves whether or not "Community" life was for them. This, to me, displays a profound level of confidence in the merits of their lifestyle. The same is necessary in the Community today. Community members, especially those in positions of authority, need to realize that their lifestyle is not for everybody, and to give the younger residents a fair choice in the matter, with a level of support being allocated to them regardless of the decision that is made by them. After all, family transcends community. However, remember when judging the Community that there was much to be gained from it, namely, the self-discipline, manners, work ethic and talent that were instilled upon each of us; some more harshly than others; at an early age. There are values that are alive and well within the Community that are scarce in the world today. Remember that this voice of moderation is coming from a person who has seen both sides of his family dedicate the last remnants of their wealth to an organization which does not benefit him in any way, has seen it to be an incredibly divisive factor in his family’s relations for decades, and not to mention the confusing and turbulent childhood that he endured. In conclusion, for those who have left the Community I say: be proud of your bold step into a new life, your hardships have been mountainous obstacles to be overcome, and stay positive from this point on. For those who are still there and are in doubt, you should question whether or not you belong there. But overall, the Community of Jesus may be a horrible organization to some, but it is a beloved way of life for others, and both standpoints are to be considered when passing judgment upon the place. I am still a Christian and I hope that God may bless you all. A Christian has nothing to fear, especially the past. | ||
| cryfreedom Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 54 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.235.231.170 |
boatdrinks-----I need to think more about what you wrote before I respond in depth. But one thing you said I have to question! You said : "after all, family transcends community." I'm glad you believe this because it is certainly TRUE!! But do you really think the community believes this? Sadly I do NOT! Welcome to the site, all opinions and thoughts are welcomed!! Have a good holiday season. | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
BD - Thanks you so much for your concise and reasonable view of the CoJ. I'm glad you feel you can express it here. I agree with you in more ways than one about the current COJ leadership imposing their views particularly on the younger generation, and I also believe that there should be some way of allowing those younger ones to see both ways of life and make a conscious and informed choice. I wish I could have your confidence when you state that "family transcends community." The statement in and of itself is true, but based on VERY recent experience with my family still in the COJ, I believe that view to be very one-sided. I think that family WITHIN the COJ is important to them, but that the COJ is a very exclusive group. They conveniently exclude those who do not live up to their standards or their way of life. The problem with those standards is that they are unattainable for most. How can anyone obtain perfection, and is not presumptious of us as Christians to try? I'm glad you still have a relationship with your family in the COJ, your mother, your grandmother. You have been able to maintain something that others of us have failed at, and not for a lack of trying. Without offending you, I would like you to consider something -- could it be that your mother (for example) thrives so much in the COJ because of the position she holds in the administration? Is it not typical human nature to reward those who are loyal and "part of the family"? Is it possible that you did not see the suffering of those lower down in the "food chain?" I just want to put those questions out there for your consideration. As for what is gained from having been a COJ member - your right - I feel that my work ethic, my desire to live my life in a Christian manner, and other traits of my personality I gained from growing up in and living in the COJ. However, do you have any idea what price myself and others who are still there paid for these gains? I'm not sure I agree so much with your statement rg equality of those who have been helped vs. those who have been hurt. How many are still there that are being damaged to this day because they don't belong there, but have no} options, no choice and no alternative for leaving? If they took your family's wealth, can you not consider that they may have taken other's money to the point that financially, they would be ruined if they tried to leave? Really, I am glad for you - maybe even a little jealous of the fact that you can hold such an optimistic view. Unfortunately, I cannot dismiss the recent hurts caused by my family in the COJ so easily. | ||
| pandersen Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 75 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.59.144.26 |
Hi, DES, and welcome to the Forum. I read your posting today. I have known your mom and dad since they were about five years old. I am very fond of both of them. Your dad is like a brother to me. I also knew Paul and Betty well and have great respect for both of them. I have always felt a special bond to your mother since we were both adopted children. I’m sure your mom, as well as your grandparents, are/were part of the CoJ in all sincerity and honest devotion to a cause they believe in. As B&E’s son, you would have been part of the elite at the CoJ. Even though you saw both sides, you probably never experienced both sides. You were more at the top of the food chain, as samham put it. It would be difficult if not impossible for you to imagine what life was really like for so many members and their children. Even though I was never a part of the CoJ itself, I saw and experienced in my childhood the hell that Cay Andersen created in the lives of others. Living in the same home with incarnate hatred is something no child should have to experience. Cay managed to unleash this hatred both personally and through her followers in the CoJ in a manner that is absolutely frightening. For those of us who experienced this in our own souls – many who were physically, emotionally or even sexually abused, it is hard to hear someone talk about a “voice of moderation.” It would be like a survivor of the Holocaust hearing about all the “good things” that Hitler did. And there were many such voices of moderation after the last WW. People would emphasize how Hitler got the economy going, put people back to work, built an amazing network of national highways, etc. etc. I heard this myself when living in Germany from members of the older generation. Once at the lunch table in the Sisterhood in Darmstadt one of the Mothers commented how “there was no crime” when Hitler was in power, and you could walk at night without fear of being mugged. I made the mistake of offering my two cents and saying that the criminals were in fact running the government, and I was reprimanded for offending the German Sisters. I hope you will stay in the Forum, DES, and try to connect with other formers who tasted a depth of suffering there that would have been unknown to you. Try to listen to them and to understand what they are saying. And pray that neither you nor your children will never have to go through anything like that. | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
Thank you all for your polite and insightful responses. I would like to clear up what I believe to be a misunderstanding. When I said that "family transcends community" I meant that it does so idealistically, but certainly it is often not the case within the Community. Also, I will say that while I was never treated the way that many others were, I did witness "light groups." I have seen people be mistreated. I definitely have had a glimpse of the harm that was caused, both of my own witness and by first- and second-hand accounts. It is good to hear feedback from other former-members on my opinion! | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1343 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.168.31 |
Hi boatdrinks, I'm glad to see you here and offering you thoughts on everything. We all have a lot to learn from each other and have had various experiences, yet share the same roots. I was very fond of both of your parents and lived with your family for a while and had some good times at Galilee on the ocean. You were always such a cute kid, as were both your sisters. I am still trying to understand the dynamics that different families experienced at the community. I do know that my own parents were pressured to the point that they had to choose between loyalty to the community or thier natural instincts to protect their own children. And loyalty to the community won out, which had a devestating effect on my life. Cay and Judy convinced my mother to give me over to their care when I was just a baby, and Jill was my primary caretaker for the first several years of my life. Your mom took care of me a lot when I was a baby and my earliest memories are of her and Jill as my friends, and basically my mothers. I am very grateful to have been able to reconnect with alot of people here through the internet and even in person. Life has become more wonderful than I could have ever imagined as the wounds continue to heal. I am glad you are well. Sending much love to you and your family! (Message edited by dream_truth on December 26, 2006) | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
pandersen, I understand where you're coming from, but I find your analogy of the CofJ being like Nazi Germany to be fundamentally inaccurate and a bit extreme. There are plenty of people who have successfully left the Community and were free to do so. The same cannot be said of the Concentration Camps during the Holocaust. And besides, when I talk of the good that has been done by the CofJ, I'm not talking about advances in infrastructure and economics versus human suffering, as in the case of Nazi Germany. I am instead talking about spiritual and familial benefits versus spiritual and familial harm. There is, I believe, more of a balance that has been struck than there was in WWII Germany. When you look at the CofJ in terms of such a cost/benefit analysis, it is a stretch to compare it to Nazi Germany. | ||
| tellitlikeitis New member Username: tellitlikeitis Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.73.50.22 |
Hello boatdrinks, Part A: Welcome to the forum. I am very glad you have sparked off a very thoughtful discussion. I agree in many respects with what you have spoken about. One area, however, I would take exception to is that very members who grew up in the community have left and felt free to do so while also have emotional and financial support in the process. Some had parents who were more vocal than others and fought for that right for their children. However, in most cases that I can recall these parents were in a special category and were not run of the mill. I love your mom and was very fond of your dad. You were born at a time I was no longer as closely associated with your family so didn't get a chance to know you on a personal level. There had been sporadic discussion in the cj about the need to provide a support system as well as the idea of suggesting that young people take a year or so out of the community in order to make an informed decision. Also, the few who dared speak about this in a public form weren't particularly well received. This practice has, historically, been done by many tightknit groups and/or christian sects such as those living in Kibbutz or the Amish, Mennonites, etc. Generally children who have grown up in the communities must leave for one year and may have up to five years out of the community. All this time, the children are supported by the community/kibbutz - financially, emotionally, etc. This is a good thing. At the end of a proscribed period, then the children in question must make a decision whether to stay or go. For example at the end of one year they may return to their community; however others may postpone that decision for four years. Of course this leaves the door open for a percentage not to return. The great thing is,however, those who return choose it w/o any sense of obligation - they embrace the lifestyle whole-heartedly and enthusiastically since it is their choice, not one made by coercion. It is stated (over and over) that at the age of 18 children @ coj may make this choice. Unfortunately, it is not a free choice because only one option is supported emotionally, financially, etc. For a choice to be a true choice, either option needs to have equal support. There are difficulties for all invovled, however for the group to grow fresh air is always a good option. (Part B to Follow) | ||
| tellitlikeitis New member Username: tellitlikeitis Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.73.50.22 |
(Part B) I believe the community has so much that can be beneficial to so many. But I also have witnessed over several years the gradual increase in spiritual vanity as well as a trend towards feeling spiritually superior to others. The community tends to be fixated inwardly - while it shares the arts, there's not a sense of open welcome. I yearn for this trend to reverse itself. I yearn for a spirit of openness and a willingness to learn from others -- even those who may not worship God in a similar fashion. Jesus himself rubbed elbows with those who were down and out or outright sinners -- yet he pointed out that some, such as the widow with 2 pennies was worth more than those who appeared to be the holy ones. Boatdrinks, hope I haven't lost you. In many respects I believe the community I grew up in was vastly different than the one you did. I also know the social status of my family was far different than yours. That being said, there is so much that I miss, and I agree so many of the positive aspects of myself were purified in the crucible of that life (i.e. work ethic, not always putting myself first, tolerance for others' opinions, etc.). It's just the trends that were happening in the meetings behind doors I found to be frightening, and not open-minded, and frankly I didn't really experience God's presence or voice in much of what I heard, and believe me I listened hard. I learned not to trust myself, so I know I tried to argue myself around to believing/agreeing with what was being said. It just didn't happen. That's my experience, and boy do I wish I could say it was otherwise. Again, Boatdrink, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just thinking aloud here with a bit of free association mixed in. Oh, and I still am a Christian, too. Thank you for kick-starting this discussion. I really appreciate hearing from a new voice on these matters. | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
What I wrote originally agrees with what you said in Part A. Where, again, do you take exception? (Message edited by boatdrinks on December 26, 2006) | ||
| tellitlikeitis New member Username: tellitlikeitis Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.73.50.22 |
Sorry, boatdrinks - I think I must have misread a sentence in one of your postings. The exception I was taking doesn't seem to be there. How embarassing. . .Maybe I read it in someone else's. | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
Haha that's OK, happens to the best of us... at least you reaffirmed one of my main points! | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
"There were plenty of people who left the COJ and were free to do so" - I had a strong negative reaction to this comment only because I believe it to be untrue. I think there is the "illusion" that you are free to leave, but there is no practical way of doing so. Please realize, BD, that most of us are talking from our own experiences, not from some kind of made up fantasy about what happens at the COJ. I for one was one of those people who believed I was "free to leave" and found out that quite the opposite was true. When I first started questioning the COJ and whether or not I belonged there, I did the "right thing". I wrote a note to those in power(this was shortly after Cay died), I told them I felt I was no longer called there and that I had made arrangements with my family outside the COJ and that I would be leaving. Immediately, I was met with extreme hostility, being in the Sisterhood at the time. I was dragged into a meeting with my mother, other sisters, BP and JS, all of whom were screaming at me that I would get AIDS, that I would die or become a prostitute or drug addict if I dared think of leaving. This lasted three hours, to the point where I finally broke down and agreed I wouldn't leave. Within two days I was sent to Grenville - I had no money, my driver's license had been taken away and I had no way of supporting myself or leaving even if I wanted to. The next time I decided to leave, I had to do so in the middle of the night with nothing but the clothes on my back and a dime in my pocket. I know you probably believe I'm making this up. I know you think "well, that didn't happen to me" - but just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it wasn't reality. So, everyone is free to leave - whether they CAN leave without money, family, job prospects, a place to live, etc. is another story. You yourself said your family handed their wealth over to the COJ - if you had not had family that had left previously to support you, where would you be? Think about it.... I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm not trying to convince you to think differently, I just want to point out that you may be misinformed. I also have to agree with Panderson's analogy about Hitler and the Holocaust - the scars run very deep in some of us. You talk about witnessing "light groups" - were you ever the subject of one? Think about it. | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
I'm not doubting that what you described happened, samham, I'm sure it did, I've heard stories like it before. However when I say "free to leave" I'm referring to; in the example of your story; the point at which "I finally broke down and agreed I wouldn't leave." What if you had stood your ground and continued with your plans to leave? You would then have been "free to leave." Also, you ask where I would be if I hadn't had family that had left? Good question. But you yourself state that you "had made arrangements with my family outside the COJ and that I would be leaving." I'm just trying to provoke thought and offer a different opinion on this forum. | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
I guess we differ on our definition of the word "free" - this is why I do not share my story of my time in the COJ with other people - the reaction I get is "well, why didn't you just leave?" - or, as you are saying, "why didn't I just stand my ground and leave?" The giving in was more because my soul and my spirit were broken... completely.... I had no emotional strength left to stand my ground.....I am also not saying my family wasn't there for ME. But, they did not have the FINANCIAL ability to support me when I left. They were there to get me out, but after that, I struggled for years to bounce back, get a job, make money, and just live. You have asked to provoke thought and you are offering different opinions - just remember to listen as well - people some times get defensive when they feel their experiences are being over-simplified or trivialized by others.  | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
I apologize if I sound like I'm over-simplifying things. I'm just wondering what keeps people there when they feel they want to leave, and you explained your situation very well. (Message edited by boatdrinks on December 27, 2006) | ||
| beyondfear Junior Member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.233.119.145 |
BD - people stay because they're afraid, and fear is one of the most powerful emotions in the human lexicon of the senses. Religious groups have used the power of fear for as long they have been in existence. Where do you think the idea of hell and damnation comes from? Do you think that a God who truly loves its creation would want to watch any of us roast in eternal fire? That's not about God - it's about control, and a control that comes through fear. I think PA's analogy to Nazi Germany and Hitler's regime is quite accurate. And, in fact, many people survived the concentration camps and went on to live "normal" lives afterward. That does not, however, mean that the victims did not leave with an unspeakable amount of trauma. So, what does it mean to say that people have successfully left the Community? Simply that they can hold down a job and form some kind of a social network? What about those of us who on the outside look like we've got it together but have to take anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medication and see the results of post-traumatic stress in our bodies every single day of our lives? Is that successful? Well, in a way it is, but not because the Community was so helpful spiritually. It's successful because we are working to overcome the trauma we have endured. It sounds, thank god, like you didn't have to experience the kind of trauma a lot of us did; hence your reminder to see the positive. But when we have been so wounded that most of our energy must go into healing, it's going to be difficult to look at a place like the Community and trumpet its goodness. I agree that there are many people at the Community who are happy there, but I would also strongly challenge the notion that spiritually this place has really helped anyone. Any kind of group that promotes fear and lacks all checks and balances cannot be a place of real freedom or healing. It's true that many people say that they have found healing through the Commmunity (primarily those who are still there) - but in the way that the members treat those of us who have left, and in their extremely close-minded views of anything that is not community-approved, it is clear that their behavior does not reflect a truly godly intent. I can't tell you how many times I have thought in response to something the Community has done, "Christ would never treat anyone this way." Now, I can definitely agree that I've taken some good with me from the Community - no doubt about that. But because the pain of what I experienced there, you won't hear me defending the place or insisting it possesses equally good and bad qualities. It is only just that anything that creates such a level of trauma should be named for what it is. | ||
| exmonk Intermediate Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
Hello Boat Drinks, So good to hear from you. You sound good. Would love to throw back a beer with you sometime and catch up. As far a SamHam is saying I have to sympathise with her. I was still in the brotherhood when another brother went through the process of leaving and he edured all that preasure and abuse. I caught some of the back lash from it and some absolutely terrible and shocking things were being done in the name of Jesus. I had had it to the point I was so upset that I decided to leave myself. I had already went through the tortures of the damned and it was all starting to heat up again and I was not going to take another dose of the bullshit and disciplinary action. I just walked out with out a word. Call me a coward but why carry more emotional scars. If I knew that it would be a civil arrangement of just leaving with as few confrontations as possible then I would have gone through "proper channels". But I decided to fully take control of my life and litterally walked out of there. I even hoped that it caused a •••• storm in the Friary because crap factor I had had to put up for the last 6 years I was there. Some things like taking you guys camping, woodworking and the music I very much loved and I still cherish those memories. But the cult activity, deception , mind control and fear tactics that are excercised there on a dailey basis are just plain evil. You, like your dad did not take a bunch of crap from anyone. You are a strong person BD. I wish you the best success. And being the grandson of a founder afforded you some leniency although you may not agree with me. So you may consider you may have been spared some of the horror and abuse others experienced. I know what SamHam is talking about and I fully understand the feelings she has toward BP and others. I visited there a year last Oct. and was treated like a leper by all but one brother. The whole 20 years there that I served meant nothing and the relationships forged over decades are comepletey cut off and I am regarded as a pariah. Very sad. Now in my life, God has blessed me and I am about see my first child a son born and start a family that I always wanted. Something that I sacrificed on a dailey basis while serving in the brotherhood. You know how much I love kids. You guys that I had the priveledge of caring for will forever be fond memories. But I feel now that I will now have my own son, I will protect him from anyone who would subject him to what I was put through as a child. Things my own parents allowed. If anyone pulls that with my kid, beleive me all hell will bust loose and God help the survivors. There are individuals who I will never let my child be in contact with because I regard them as destructive personalities. I apologize for going on and on but I wanted to make a point here. My best wishes to you and your family. I really liked your folks and cousins. Take care and I hope you find all the happiness you care to persue in the years ahead. Exmonk | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
Thank you, exmonk for the kind words. First, I don't deny that I had it easier than most, and I always take this fact into consideration. Second, I believe that the benefits versus the detriments of the CofJ is an issue that is fully debatable, and that whichever side one takes in this debate is determined by their experience. My experience tells me that for every time I hear of somebody being emotionally tormented, I also hear of somebody's marriage being saved, or something of the like. I wish that the occurences of these two things could be measured quantitatively. Let's stipulate: if the two extremes could be measured in such a way, and even if the balance was 70/30 to the negative, is it wrong to consider the 30 while passing judgment on the organization? I think not. Until such an argument can be quantified... agree to disagree. | ||
| boatdrinks New member Username: boatdrinks Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.113.165.144 |
P.S. Exmonk, I wouldn't say that you were a coward for leaving the way you did. You decided to leave and you did it. It's too bad the way you were received while visiting, but it's good to hear you have a family and I wish you all the best. -DES | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
BD - I slept on my last response and I would like to apologize for being sounding so defensive. I am trying to learn to debate in a rational manner without getting my emotions mixed up in it. Beyondfear is doing a much better job at pointing out the pros and cons than I am . I guess I should learn that I have a hard time debating my life experiences. That said, I'm glad your here and asking hard questions. It makes us all stop and think. Its also nice to hear the perspective of a more recent generation. My family has known your family and the Anderson family since before the COJ was formed. My parents were in on the ground floor, for better or worse. I have some fond memories of both your father and your mother. I'm glad you have found your way, and that you are doing well. I remember when all of you kids were born. Seems like a long time ago. I don't want you to give any more info than you feel comfortable with, but can you give more examples of some of the things you feel were positive things that happened in the COJ? I'm not trying to get personal here, but I found it interesting that you mentioned for every bad event you hear about you hear about something good, like someones "marriage being saved". Are you referring to after leaving the COJ, or within the COJ? I can give you at least four examples of couples within the COJ where the mother or father was removed from the home and told to go live in the Convent or the Friary, or one or the other parent was told to leave the COJ altogether, without their children or the other spouse. Are these just things you didn't know where happening? You also asked what keeps people there when they want to leave. I would refer you to any published work by Margaret Thaler Singer who is an expert on mind-control and brainwashing. She has written many pieces on cults, and has done huge amounts of research and study of prisoners of war and mind-control tactics used in war and other situations. I have asked myself that question over and over? What was it that made me stay so long? Why did I let these people do these things to me? Why didn't my mother, or my father, or someone else rush to protect me or speak up and say "this is wrong?" Her writings have helped me understand a lot about myself, the COJ and what I experienced there. | ||
| halhelms Junior Member Username: halhelms Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.64.172 |
Ah--the voice of reason! You're entirely right, boatdrinks, there was MUCH good in the Community and that should be lauded. Yes, yes, it came at somewhat of a stiff price for some, but others benefited from these same practices. After all, are not the tormentors human, too? Do they not also have needs? If a child was sexually abused, well, at least the abuser enjoyed the experience, presumably. So, in the calculus of pain v. pleasure, who's to say whether it may have produced more pleasure for the abuser than pain for the victim? If confused children were wrested from their parents, they may have learned many valuable coping skills that they would need later in life. If people were humiliated, degraded, and scarred with a sense of unworthiness, well, the world has a surfeit of arrogant and haughty souls, so this too, helps "balance" things out nicely. If some were enriched while others were impoverished, why should we concentrate only on the unfortunate state of the one while overlooking the benefits that accrued to the other? Any reasonable cost/benefit analysis must include both. But, reasonable and rational as your arguments surely are, I, as a Christian, must reject them. There is a call to Christians (and indeed, to all people) to defend the powerless, support the oppressed, comfort the afflicted. You argue a position philosophers call "utilitarianism", where a cost/benefit analysis can be done. But there is a greater claim, levied by God, for justice that preempts all appeals for balance and reasonableness. pandersen is quite right in using the analogy of National Socialism, for if your argument succeeds with the Community, it should also be applied there. Or to Pol Pot. Or Sadaam Hussein. Or any of a host of cruel megalomaniacs who arrogate to themselves the power to determine the fates of others. And on this point, God is quite "unreasonable". He demands justice and mercy and seems quite unaffected by the benefits that those who exercise this power might gain. If you, having read (if not experienced) the pain and devastation met out by the Community, fail to see the need to stand with the victims, I suggest that your understanding of the claims of scripture and the nature of Jesus is deeply flawed. | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
My deepest thanks Hal - you are blessed with a talent far greater than I could ever have to express what we are all trying to say. | ||
| beyondfear Junior Member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.233.119.145 |
Indeed, Hal. Your gift of communication is one desperately needed in this conversation. Thank you for your well-reasoned words and deep compassion for the suffering of those who lived through the Community. | ||
| pandersen Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.59.144.26 |
Thanks, Hal. Very well written. | ||
| halhelms Junior Member Username: halhelms Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.64.172 |
Let me say something further on the incalculable damage the Community has had on the spiritual welfare of so many. Cay and Judy and their minions left so wrong and so deep an understanding of the nature of God that they managed to make God an accomplice in their spiritual wickedness. It would have been much easier for many to recover had the regime simply been an evil secular one such as the Nazis were. But the particular genius of the Community is the way in which God and cruelty formed such a comfortable bond. The only possible way to justify the monstrous, inhuman acts perpetrated by the Community was to appeal to a supernatural, non-human force that could trump the obvious evil being done there. That, the Community has done very successfully. Hell must be very pleased that the very person who should be the refuge for comfort and healing is viewed by many who suffered under the Community's iron hand as the source of the pain they endured. That, more than any arts or music, is the Community's true legacy. When I hear others defending the evil done in God's name and know of the havoc wrought in the hearts of so many, I am angry -- and unapologetically so. I believe that while many have left the Community, the Community has not totally left them: they are still laboring under the lies pressed on them as truths. In my own life, I've found peace not by papering over the evils done in God's name, but in discovering that God is someone wholly other than who he is portrayed as by the Community. It took me a *long* time to learn this and my deepest wish for all those who suffered is to truly, finally understand that the God they learned to cower from at the Community bears no resemblance to the true God, who loves all of us so. I don't believe any compromise between the Community "Gawd" and the true God is possible. Such a "reasonable" approach is simply another way to keep those who suffered in bondage. | ||
| halhelms Junior Member Username: halhelms Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
I'm posting this for Gen Lane, who's having computer problems: Dear DES: First, God bless you, for leaving your safe and secure pasture...that is a brave and wise move!!! I'm glad that you were afforded the means in which to leave on good terms; that is healthy and that is how it should have be. Unfortunately, many weren't graced with that privilege. I was one who was not so fortunate. I ran away twice and was slapped, pushed, spanked, threatened and forbidden to leave or I'd be dead in 3 years of an STD. A private lifetime confession was announced in front of my dad in order to humiliate me. The more I think how blessed you were for not personally experiencing the atrocities there, the more I think you're wrong because of your outlook now. I don't mean that offensively, DES, so let me explain. I'm glad that you were spared the physical and emotional pain many others on this board experienced, but if I had a choice to go through the Community experience again in either your position or my position, I'd pick mine for what it has driven me to in my life. After I left the Community, I took the emotional and physical abuse and shamed-based thinking with me. And all of that mixed with a very distorted view of an angry-at-me God drove me to self-hatred and suicide after so many repeatedly vain attempts of chasing my tail trying to find SOMEONE/ANYONE who would at least love me for me! But I didn't respect myself or think I was worthy to be loved by anyone (including the "things" I went out with!), Well, that didn't pan out the way it did in my dreams; it just fed the fire which was a desperate love hunger or a giant unquenchable void that demanded to be filled. So I decided I just wasn't good enough to remain on this planet; I didn't have what it takes to be a normal human being. So one day, I spoke to this "angry God" and said "If You're really real, You'd better show Yourself to me now or I'm going to end this charade." I was so sick of living and trying to play the game. I was so surprised when His presence, which I had never known (although being brought up in a place with the name Jesus on it!) came into my room and surrounded me and just engulfed me with the most breathtaking sense of His beauty and love and forgiveness. I KNEW it was God. I KNEW He was alive and that I mattered to Him and THAT was ALL that mattered. To make a long story somewhat short, God has taught me through my discovery of His loving, merciful ways not only how to forgive people, but how to love them too. I experienced this recently with your grandmother, Judy, and Helen Helms. I apologize if this offends anyone but they were extremely cruel to me. It is ONLY through God imparting His love into me (absolutely NOTHING that I could do at all) that I could visit them and actually say "God bless you and He loves you and so do I". So, in THAT sense, the Community DID work for me, only not how they wanted it to, but how God decided it should. [cont'd next post] | ||
| halhelms Junior Member Username: halhelms Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
[Gen Lane's post cont'd] That is why I say I'm glad I went through the abuse that I did, only because it served the purpose of driving me to a desperation of finding out Who this "awful God" really was. So, I wouldn't trade places with you any day! I totally embrace my experience because of the awesome God that it drove me to meet and I'd go through it again. Believe me: I'm not masochistic, that's just how wonderful God is. Some day you may see your wife go through a pain that's very similar on a much smaller scale when she gives birth to a child. The child and the joy s/he will bring will by far outweigh the pain that s/he caused coming into the world. As far as the "good" that the Community "teaches" people, I'd most definitely have to disagree. Being good and doing good can actually be an enemy of God because it's a false security in that it's something that we can do that makes us acceptable or worthy of God. And then you'd have to say "Sorry Jesus...You died for nothing." It's only through our surrender to Him that we can have a living, loving relationship with God. There's no other way. If you KNOW God, then those "good works" are a fruit from His Spirit and we can't take any credit for it. And the only thing that God wants from us is our broken, messed up lives and guess what? That's all I could give Him and amazingly, that was not only enough, but all that He wanted to begin with! Cool, I say! I'll close by saying I hope that God touches your heart, DES, in a way that no one else and nothing else can in the coming year and that You truly find the Father heart of God. He makes everything worthwhile, ESPECIALLY the bad and the ugly. (I love my God/Father...sorry ~ couldn't resist.) | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.155.232 |
Dear Friends, I'm very grateful to have discovered this discussion board about your experiences at the CoJ and your spiritual journey since leaving. It is an inspiration to me. My husband, son and I lived at the CoJ for a year or so back in the late 70s after attending retreats with our church fellowship in Cambridge, MA for several years prior. While at the CoJ, I witnessed and personally exerienced various cultish practices similar to those you endured: emotional cruelty, verbal abuse, shunning, "disciplines," favoritism, the singling out and ridicule of vulnerable members, the "see-saw" treatment of couples in which one spouse would receive kinder treatment and the other spouse was pounced upon with cruel, abusive treatment for a a month or two. Predictably, the treatment was often reversed with a "fall from grace" for the spouse who was temporarily in good grace. The other spouse was then "let off the hook" for awhile ~ and relieved to be off the "hot seat," ~ joined in the emotional pummeling of the other spouse with a vengeance. The CoJ leaders called this type of treatment a "breaking of idolatry" or "speaking the truth." The various power plays of those in authority preyed on the spiritual yearnings of many wonderful people. Like you, I was drawn by the worship, music and arts at the CoJ. But I came to realise that the administration there, to borrow on one of their favorite expressions, had an "idolatrous relationship" if ever there were one, with the aesthetics of sacred music including chant, the arts, worship and European architecture in the cathedral under construction. That is, they placed aesthetics above God. The central focus of life at the CoJ was not on God/Christ. There were no bible studies or Christian Education for children or adults, no cherishing or sharing of scripture with one another. The emphasis was not on the love and forgivenss of our Great Good Shepherd, but only on our own sins and the constant berating of others for their sins. I observed that those who constantly yelled and berated others managed to avoid the bullets themselves. The climate of fear reminded me of the Salem "witch hunt." The short version of my taking leave of the CoJ is that on several occasions when I brought up the subject, I was told I would be a whore and a street walker if I were to leave. On another occasion I was told that I would never use my talents in the arts to the fullest if I were to abandon my calling to the CoJ. Another time my husband and others told me I needed to "get with the program." Several months later at a breakfast table in the presence of a group of CoJ resident members and non-resident live-ins, I was told that I was paying too much attention to my son in feeding him his breakfast. He was then moved in his high chair to the other side of the table without a word and placed between another couple. One of the household leaders screached at me that I "hated to be wrong" and would have to meet with the two directors if I wasn't "real" with my feelings. The moment had come when I knew without a doubt that I must leave. I knew my husband and others would prevent me from doing so. My only option was to depart unnoticed. I left with my son in a taxi with two paper bags containing some of his clothing and personal effects. (continued next post) Lily in Bloom | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.155.232 |
(continued from last post by Lily in Bloom) What happened in the next few years was similar to the experiences you've shared in this discussion board. I would describe my first two years as a state of "post traumatic syndrome." My husband told me that I was "in the hands of Satan" living outside the CoJ. However, my son and I were so fortunate to have a loving family outside the CoJ who were very supportive of us as we struggled to make a knew life. And to know now that there are others who "defected" from the CoJ with whom I can identify and share ~ this is a Devine gift!! Please know that I empathize with you and want to be in touch with you. My prayer is that we all experience God's love, peace and continued healing in the new year. And my prayers include my former husband who lives at the CoJ and many dear friends who may still live there. With love in Christ, Lily in Bloom | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
Lily - Welcome! So glad you found us. Your story is so heartbreakingly similar and I feel with you that pain. I am glad to hear that you have found some healing and that life has continued on to be fulfilling for you. | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.225.116 |
Thank you, Samham!! Lily | ||
| halhelms Junior Member Username: halhelms Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.64.172 |
It's wonderful to hear that you escaped from the cult with your life and faith intact, Lily. Welcome. | ||
| pandersen Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.59.144.26 |
This new thread is very helpful. Thanks, Hal, for all your input. And thanks to DES for starting the thread. I hope you are able to hear and feel what these good folks are saying here. Say hi to your dad and mom for me when you speak to them next. | ||
| exmonk Intermediate Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 107 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
As always, it is with great interest to read your posts Hal. Your insights and writing are so brutally honest, clear with conviction. Thanks for you contribution to this thread. E | ||
| cryfreedom Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 55 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.235.231.170 |
lily-----WELCOME!! My heart broke reading your story and my blood boiled when you wrote about your son being moved away from you in his highchair. From a mother's point of view you certainly did do the right thing by putting your son and your well being first and getting the hell out of there! I say good for you for moving on. All the best in the New Year!! | ||
| plainoldme New member Username: plainoldme Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 172.161.17.244 |
Idolatry has two meanings. 1. Worship of idols and 2. Blind or excessive devotion to something... is a person considered just "something?". I believe God is a kind and tender God and not one that has to take "something" away from anyone. I Believe we were used. I Believe we were played like kids toys to be put in positions that suited our rulers. I believe we were test objects and product testing animals to get it right. God isn't mean or manipulative as this. Lily I am sorry you were tested to the point of breaking. My mother was put in that situation with my youngest brother and I was the one who would sneek and give him attention so he wouldn't be ignored when he cried. They moved him into my room when I was 13 and when he cried I was the one to pick him up and feed him most of the time. For fear my mother would get into trouble. Happy New Year to all! CAS | ||
| cryfreedom Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.235.231.170 |
WTF?!! Plainoldme, that is too sad for words. Yes, I think you are right----we were used like lab rats. The fact that you as a 13 year old had to be the mother figure for your brother so your Mom would not get in trouble is truly sad! Glad you have "seen the light" also. Here's to all you wonderful Parents out there!! Lets love our children until we burst. Lets hear it for IDOLATRY!!! | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.154.28 |
Dear Samham, Where to begin? We lived in the same house with you for a few months at the CoJ. I feel that I know and identify with some of the things you endured. I don't know if you would remember us because it was a short period of time. There are things I'd like to share with you from our experience also. Would it be appropriate to give you my personal e-mail address in order to have a means for more in-depth communication? I hesitate to share alot of specific detail on the discussion board ~ no offense meant to anyone else. Lily | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.154.28 |
Dear Friends, I know I'm repeating myself here, but I'm so thankful for your input on this Discussion Board. It's become a source of healing for me after 26 some odd years of solitude about my family's experience at the CoJ and the overwhelming impact it has had on each of our lives. This is bringing alot of memories and emotional pain to the surface, but this is a good thing, I know. One thing I feel is guilt that I wasn't strong enough to express my negative response to the CoJ right away. At one point, RP Sr. told me that I hadn't said one honest thing since I came to the CoJ. He was right to the extent that, in my fear of reprisals, I pushed down any negative thoughts. And therefore, I wasn't true to myself. I witnessed many things happening to others that I perceived as cruel. To name a few: during my assigned prayer vigil one afternoon in the chapel when RP Sr. was directing the recording of a group of Sisters who were singing (like angels! ~ it was lovely), Mothers C and J boomed over the intercom from their suite on the second floor. C singled out one of them (whose name I won't mention and whom I knew from the church in Cambridge) and said she would personally help her pack her bags to leave and not to ever come back again with the same behavior she had exhibited. On other occasions, the whole community was called to the chapel. Each time we were asked a question. Once, the question was "Do you love the CoJ?" Once it was "Which is more important, celebration of the Eucharist or obedience to the CoJ" ~ that may not the exact question, but it was something like that. Those that answered correctly were allowed to sit in the choir pews. The rest of us remained seated in the congregational pews. Then BP, C and J and other leaders pulled some people out of the choir pews and asked them to sit back in the congregation for various reasons. I remember that one young woman was pulled back by one of the leaders because she had not been fast enough in readying the house she was assigned to during a recent hurricane watch preparation. I was pulled back because BP announced that I wasn't speaking up to my husband. I remember on another such occasion when everyone was called to the chapel, C and J sat at the back for some reason. Mother J called out to Br. Doug that she would never forget some horrible thing he had done to her (no specifics were mentioned). He got up and stormed out. It appeared to me that he had a newly shaved head with a huge set of fresh stitches. I just couldn't imagine what had happened and I didn't dare ask. Their interchange frightened me! On another occasion, one of the CoJ residents shared with me that she and her husband were not allowed to sleep together for one year. I did not ask for an explanation, but that was frightening information. (continued on next post) Lily | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
Lilly - Let me give you my email address - it's dewittney@aol.com. It's amazing what I can remember, AND what I have chosen to forget. I would be happy to reconnect and talk further! | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.154.28 |
(continued from last post) Lily Please forgive me if I'm sharing "more than you need (or want) to know" about my life at the CoJ. I am forever humbled by my lack of back bone while there. I should many times have said how I felt especially when others (or my family)were humiliated in small and large groups. A few instances which I'd like to share unembellished: I was asked to do choreography for parts of two G&S productions. While working on the Mikado, one CoJ chorus member was given a "Coolie" hat to wear during rehearsals long before anyone else had partial costumes. This person was ridiculed and provoked in other situations as well. I know because the group of women I ate lunch with at the time included his wife and she would share with us that her husband tried to leave and needed to deal with his anger. At another rehearsal, BP called me over to the piano and told me to approach one of the cast members who was practicing a song. She said to tell him he was "haughty and arrogant." I looked up and could see he was already struggling to keep back tears. This was a dear friend of mine from the Cambridge church. I hesitated, but didn't have the courage to refuse to give him such a message. A short time later at the Ark, I received a phone call from one of the people in authority saying that this same person was going to be coming over and composing a piece of music in the basement. I was instructed to lock the door to the upstairs. This heightened my concern for him. I couldn't imagine why he would be treated that way. And then I experienced something similar myself. At another rehearsal for Mikado, BP called me over to the piano and was making a comment about something. While listening, I saw RP Sr. call me over to where he was directing the singing. I waited for BP to finish and then went directly over to RP Sr. He looked angry as he gave me a direction of some sort. As soon as rehearsal and compline were over and several of us including BP and RP Sr. who then lived at the Ark where my family was assigned, were back, RP Sr. asked Fr. Lane and me to go into the hallway leading to the garage. Then RP Sr. literally shoved me up against a wall and said he was the director of the production and I was a monster inside. Fr. Lane just stood behind RP Sr. and didn't say anything. My husband wasn't asked to accompany us, so I was alone with the two men and was shocked and stunned by this. (continued next post)...Lily | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.225.35 |
(continued from last post)....Lily I want to share the pain I felt for others when they "fell from grace" at various times in my family's stay at the CoJ ~ particularly the Sisters. Sometimes their normally radiant, joyful faces were pale and drawn for what seemed like a few months at a time ~ among them Sr. Heidi, Sr. Chris and Sr. Lucy. I remember Sr. Lucy's beautiful letters that were read to us at Friday night teachings when she lived in Bermuda. When she was returned to the CoJ in Orleans and we learned that she "attempted to destroy/shut down the ministry in Bermuda," the accusation against her was frightening to me. I will always be humbled that I didn't have the courage to rail against the cruel and humiliating treatment of many of us at the CoJ. What an anathema that such a lovely surrounding, the civility of afternoon teas on the lawn, the gorgeous incantations of chant at compline, the tradition of observing the Offices of the Day ~ were juxtaposed to such cultish practices by those in leadership positions. With sincere prayers and blessings for us all, Lily | ||
| beyondfear Junior Member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.233.119.145 |
Lily - thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I don't think anything you've said is more than we want to know. In fact, everything you've said just continues to verify and validate all of our experiences. What you witnessed is horrifying. I am just so glad you got out when you did. I hope your son is doing well and that you've been able to create a peaceful and harmonious life for yourself. It's to be expected that reading all of this information and getting in touch with some of the former members will bring up a lot for you. Be patient with yourself as these emotions surface and know that we're here any time you need a reassuring word. | ||
| cryfreedom Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.235.231.170 |
lily-----Thanks for sharing all these experiences you went through at the CoJ. Like "beyondfear" said, give yourself time as these emotions surface. I also can relate to your pain over seeing and hearing about various Sister's "falling from grace". It is ridiculous how C or J could just have this feeling that someone was "out of the spirit" and then they would be on discipline for God knows how long. Certain situations were twisted beyond belief(for example what you stated above about Sr. Lucy). Sisters were put on disciplines not even knowing why or what for(and remember some of them were VERY young and at an impressionable age). It just makes me so sad to see how things were twisted and lies were told to explain things(or cover up things, I might add). | ||
| exmonk Intermediate Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 108 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
Dear Lily-in-Bloom, Thanks for sharing. I agree with Beyondfear and welcome you and encourage you to say what ever you like. Just like you, so many of us were intimidated and manipulated. I am sorry that your husband did not stand by, protect an defend you. It sounds like he did not deserve you. I was a brother after Doug left and as to life in the brotherhood, there were times when a one of the ministers still living in the CJ exclaimed to me in private that I had every right to call the police for assault, because of the terrible things that happened to bring us "in line". I am so glad to be out, married and expecting our first child, a boy, in 7 weeks. I hope and pray you find peace and closure from your experiences and abuse within the CJ. RP sr, and I would have to say that every one in that family, are abusive by nature to say the least. Good luck and God bless! | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.226.216 |
Thank you so very much for your support and kindness in writing me back. All these years I've wrestled with what happened to my family and me and I felt very much alone in my experience there, not knowing who, if anyone else had ever left there other than me. God Bless you all and I want to stay in touch. This discussion board will be a continued source of strength for me!! Lily | ||
| tapfere_mann New member Username: tapfere_mann Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 68.106.103.64 |
"Then RP Sr. literally shoved me up against a wall and said he was the director of the production and I was a monster inside. Fr. Lane just stood behind RP Sr. and didn't say anything." Hi L_N_B, RP Sr. is a mere prick of a man. He is sick in so many ways. He got off on using others to make himself feel more powerful. I am truly sorry you had to be on the recieving end. You should have just kicked him where the sun don't shine and tell F.L where to go... for just standing there like an idiot. I would love to use stronger language but the board won't allow it. I have asked myself a million times why I didn't have more of a back bone. I think that all I can do is learn from a very sad and dark period in my life. FL was a good and kind man, but he stood by way too many times to save his own skin. I remember you and thought you were a very kind and sweet woman. You had such decent and beautiful qualities that I believe RP in his sickness percieved you as a threat to his little dominion. He was the one who had a monster inside...a demon if you will. I am not surprised he treated someone with angelic qualities in such a desperate and cowardly way. Thank you for coming on and sharing, and please know that you are not alone. | ||
| alivefighting New member Username: alivefighting Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.65.36.166 |
Dear Lilly, My body's reaction to reading your recollections has started a migraine, and my shoulders have tensed up to the point of being around my ears. It has brought me back instantly and intensely to what daily life was like when I lived there. The expectation of, but never knowing when, you were to be blindsided by someone "receiving the spirit about you", and "knowing what needed to be done" punishment-wise for you to change. It felt very similar to being hit with projectile vomit, and you never knew who it was going to come out of. Most of the time in my current life, just going about my day, I am able to say "that was then....this is now", so the intensity of my reaction has surprised me. WOW! Despite the discomfort, thank you for sharing. It has brought up things that I thought I had "gotten over".... but obviously not. "Darn-toot'n!" Remember that expression?  | ||
| alivefighting New member Username: alivefighting Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.65.36.166 |
Hey exmonk, Very excited for you about your son being born soon! I remember how much the kids loved you, and your face always lit up around them. "YAY FOR YOU!" | ||
| alivefighting New member Username: alivefighting Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.65.36.166 |
Hi everyone, I've been away for a while, I had needed to take a break. Just wanted to make a small comment about my username. When I set it up, I was unaware that the plus sign would not show up when I posted. It was supposed to read as "alive and fighting". It might sound trivial, but for me, it is a large distinction. One meaning that I am fighting to be alive, while the other stating that I am alive, and fighting to boot. Just something that was bugging me, and I wanted to clarify the name that represents me. Thanks for humoring me! | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 209.188.48.247 |
Tap_fere_mann, Thank you so much for your message. It has helped and comforted me. I want to add that, like you, I found Fr. Lane to be a kind and compassionate person. Alive and fighting, thank you very much for your message too. And ex-monk, I'm very happy that you have found happiness and fulfilment and that you're married and about to have your first child!!! Thinking of you all with gratitude, Lily | ||
| hightide New member Username: hightide Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 71.235.107.213 |
Lily- reading your posts has brought tears to my eyes, and alas, a migraine mostly because I loved you so as I child......I remember the lace fans in the dining room that was cleared for lessons, I broke so many fans but I don't remember you ever getting mad.....and cooking squid......and your son who has been through so much and whose website I just saw a few weeks ago. My God, I don't know what to say or where to begin. You are one of my earliest memories, my earliest! I so want to talk to you. I'll ask samham to send you my email address.....Thank you for being here. | ||
| hightide New member Username: hightide Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 71.235.107.213 |
Lily-I would have posted something sooner but wasn't sure it was you...then it was confirmed. So glad you are here! | ||
| plainoldme New member Username: plainoldme Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 172.132.48.222 |
I am absolutely dumbfounded, and in awe of how these memories of the G & S Productions were accounted. As you mentioned every account of what BP and RP Sr did was like a "Back to the Future" moment for me. I was sitting in the Orchestra in the violin section watching all this go on just trying to be a kid and seeing the pain that everyone endured doing a rehearsal. Helping with costumes was another job I had, it was fun but wow it was stressful even for a 14/15 year old. I miss the fun times and glad I am away from the bad times. Peace and Happy New Year to everyone. | ||
| lilly_n_bloom New member Username: lilly_n_bloom Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.153.79 |
Dear High Tide, I'm touched to tears by your sweet, lovely message. Thank you so very, very much for writing to me. You were so very dear to me when you were a child ~ and I've grieved over the loss of connection with you and your parents all these years. I'm thrilled that you want to be in touch ~ and I'll e-mail you as soon as I receive your e-address from Samham. With love, Lily | ||
| hightide New member Username: hightide Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 71.235.107.213 |
I left a message for you on the private board with my email. Hope to hear from you soon......love, me | ||
| westcedar New member Username: westcedar Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 12.45.228.13 |
I thought I would take a minute and share an opinion. I found this site by searching for the Community under Wikipedia for what reason I do not know. My relationship with the CofJ and GCC started when I was two or three years old. I have no memories but my family went on a retreat there. My mother and father were trying to save their marriage and were told they would get some good counseling there (both my parents admitted this was the wrong choice). My brother still cannot understand why he had to put on good pants, instead of jeans, to clean the goat barn. Lastly, I cried so much during service that my mother had to take me out of the church. In the mid 80’s (after my parents had divorced), my mother and I moved to Orleans. She wanted to be an Oblate there but not live there. So, I made many friends in CofJ but also had “outside” friends. Wow, what a different perspective each group had on life and free will. The CofJ was not looked favorable upon by the people of the town as they were trying to get their new church built. When asked by members of the CofJ what I thought of the plans I said “the steeple was too high, it towers over Rock Harbor and cheapens the beauty of the area.” This was the first plans for the new church. Speaking of the church, I miss the simpleness and closeness of the old original church. But, I digress… A year after I moved to Orleans all of the CofJ kids went to GCC so I followed. My mother gave me the choice and I went. The GCC period of my life was a good one. Sure it had its problems, but I was an outside insider. My friends at the school felt that the CofJ kids were a special class but the CofJ kids just wanted to be like everyone else. I was able to straddle the line well gaining benefits of being both. I did have to go to a few “light” sessions. I believe most of my responses were one word and I really did not agree with the sessions so I stopped going. When CofJ unexpectedly pulled all of the kids out of GCC I remained. I have life long friends still from the school and got the structure I needed to be a successful member of society. I remember FC well. He was an arrogant individual. And why did he give the same sermons each year? You would know what week in the school year it was by the topic of the sermon he was giving. I remember they had an after dinner session on sex. I think some one came in and made us roll dice to see how often we would get pregnant by having unprotected sex. After three years of trying to conceive with my wife I am still looking for those dice (she is pregnant with twins now!!) I remember FC giving a lecture about no walking on the grass. After breakfast we go outside and see his car parked on it!!! I know the school has changed recently. I have to say that the current headmaster is an individual that started me on the career path I am on now so I am eternally grateful to that individual. I wish the school all the success. | ||
| westcedar New member Username: westcedar Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 12.45.228.13 |
As for CofJ, a difference. I remember my mother buying a microwave and cordless phone for her “house” before we had one for our home. I remember my mother sending $$ to the community for every fund drive even when she was shucking oysters to make money to save our home from being foreclosed on (she insisted I stayed at GCC). I actually wrote a letter to the “Mothers” asking them to stop sending the fund letters to my mom. I received a letter back from Father Lane saying they would stop. Something was always weird there. I am reading this board with interest to see exactly what is was that I sensed. I remember being afraid of the place for a long time. Something changed when I reached my mid teens and everyone became nicer. Where they trying to woo me because they could see the successful man I have become before I could and they wanted me there? Who knows? I have to end with I do not feel anything against the CofJ. When my mom was stricken with cancer and paralyzed as a result, the CofJ came through. Brothers and Sisters would stop by often to visit. Her friends from there would as well and spend time with her. Priests would come to visit her to prepare her for her end of days and she would ask them how there relationship with God was! The CofJ even had her funeral on Holy Saturday (prior to Easter) when our Catholic faith would not. This made me forget the questions I had in the past about them. Would I ever live there, NO but, the experience has allowed me to “live and let live” and visit CofJ for some of their cultural events. My story and $0.02. (wow, did that feel good)! | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.66.8 |
I'm glad you had a good experience with the place, westcedar. It's good to hear that people were loving towards your mother. Even in so dark a place, people sometimes break through and show themselves to be decent humans. | ||
| krwg New member Username: krwg Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 76.100.145.120 |
Well said BD. I haven't read all of the responses but have to agree - it wasn't all bad. I do also have to say - I didn't experience what i know a lot of others did. I firmly believe the biggest step of healing is moving on and having your own life - as opposed to dwelling on the past. I also believe - the only way for me - was to have a trained therapist. I honestly would not be alive today if I hadn't been lead to the right person to help me get through the deprogramming, and selfhatred i had. There are some truly amazing people at the cofj - and some truly warped people. | ||
| alwyswndr New member Username: alwyswndr Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.4.189.213 |
I thought this was worthy again, so reposted for those who are fairly new to the forum. Halhelms, thank you. halhelms Junior Member Username: halhelms Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.64.172 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 8:10 am: Ah--the voice of reason! You're entirely right, boatdrinks, there was MUCH good in the Community and that should be lauded. Yes, yes, it came at somewhat of a stiff price for some, but others benefited from these same practices. After all, are not the tormentors human, too? Do they not also have needs? If a child was sexually abused, well, at least the abuser enjoyed the experience, presumably. So, in the calculus of pain v. pleasure, who's to say whether it may have produced more pleasure for the abuser than pain for the victim? If confused children were wrested from their parents, they may have learned many valuable coping skills that they would need later in life. If people were humiliated, degraded, and scarred with a sense of unworthiness, well, the world has a surfeit of arrogant and haughty souls, so this too, helps "balance" things out nicely. If some were enriched while others were impoverished, why should we concentrate only on the unfortunate state of the one while overlooking the benefits that accrued to the other? Any reasonable cost/benefit analysis must include both. But, reasonable and rational as your arguments surely are, I, as a Christian, must reject them. There is a call to Christians (and indeed, to all people) to defend the powerless, support the oppressed, comfort the afflicted. You argue a position philosophers call "utilitarianism", where a cost/benefit analysis can be done. But there is a greater claim, levied by God, for justice that preempts all appeals for balance and reasonableness. pandersen is quite right in using the analogy of National Socialism, for if your argument succeeds with the Community, it should also be applied there. Or to Pol Pot. Or Sadaam Hussein. Or any of a host of cruel megalomaniacs who arrogate to themselves the power to determine the fates of others. And on this point, God is quite "unreasonable". He demands justice and mercy and seems quite unaffected by the benefits that those who exercise this power might gain. If you, having read (if not experienced) the pain and devastation met out by the Community, fail to see the need to stand with the victims, I suggest that your understanding of the claims of scripture and the nature of Jesus is deeply flawed. |
