| Author | Message | ||
     maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 873 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
Okay the EN people have control of the EN wikkipedia...now someone I suspect Jon Mosely is disputing the WIkki article on MCM- which in my mind is far to lenient to the cultic group that it was and removing external links that are unfavorable...we must patrol the Wikki on MCM | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 68.210.104.186 |
I'm on it already ... besides, I have a hunch that if this Fuller affair plays out like I hope it does, EN's credibility will be down to nothing. In reading the EN article, though, it doesn't seem to be all that bad. Maybe if we put in some of the PROVEN stuff that isn't related to Maranatha (the houses, etc.) ... let's see them take that out. Can't do it alone, though, guys ... | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 282 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
I'm doing a bit on Maranatha right now. How about a section on who the major MCM players were? Anyone able to write me up a list with Ball, Broocks, Bonasso, Weiner plus positions? (Message edited by osakadan on December 22, 2006) | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 283 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
I would also like to expand the dating revelation section, anyone have quotes from firm foundations for me? | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 284 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
The organization was one of the major players in the Christian right during the 1980s. (from wikipedia) Was this actually true or did Weiner just like to think that? | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1106 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 206.148.228.85 |
Hi Dan, Well they acted like it; but in essence it was a small well placed group on many campuses, and attempting to be world wide. If you look at the Wall Street Journal article at Ross site , you will find some helpful material. Good Hunting!!} | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 876 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
Osaka- I, along with Matt can help with Phil we KNOW exactly WHERE and HOW he came along...do you want to shoot me an e-mail at...you in Matt Maranathaoriginal@Yahoo.com | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 286 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
Check your mailbox '84 | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1564 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
EN controls the content on Wikipedia about Every Nation now and one of the main goals was to remove the direct link to Ulyankees timeline from the Every_Nation Wiki site. For some reason that timeline showing the history of this thing really ticks these guys off. Now if you go to the Wiki Maranatha page the time line link for Maranatha/Every Nation is there but it will be interesting if people are trying to remove that time-line link. Control the info about the past and you can control the future type of thing. How are folks trying to change the Maranatha Wiki site? anyone? Anyway all EN members you should go to the Maranatha Wiki site to get to that time-line link which gives the history of Every Nation. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1565 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
Back by popular demand ! For our EN lurkers a must read, high quality info. more Is it possible for someone to get control of the Maranatha Wiki page? Because if they do that they will remove the above links from the Maranatha page, that is the danger. They already did it on the EN Wiki page. (Message edited by 40days40years on December 23, 2006) | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 889 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
Yes Blue control MCM Wiki- the key to keeping control is not neutrality so much as to being able to "reference' external documentation for any statements that are made. The protest entered by Jon Mosely could lead to the page being controlled by well, by him. Blue lost control of EN because of this and the page is now a highly SANITIZED VERSION OF THE EN page that offers NO links to MCM | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 890 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
Blue being Blue Boy btw | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 891 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
The external links had been removed to the timeline my blog etc. This can be done- and they will stay off unless the page is patrolled by us and owned by someone who understand MCM for what it is. EN would LIKE to control the MCM page- they would give anything to ERASE MCM from the pages of history! | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 296 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_for_Christ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Christian_Fellowship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha_Campus_Ministries | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1665 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.215.96 |
How about Morning Star International ? Since EN already change their name. You can write a lot of things during MSI time. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 298 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
There is no page at the moment. If it is searched for on Wikipedia you are automatically taken to MSI. I have been doing some other things on wiki for 6 months but don't know it so well. It would be difficult to argue for a seperate page. If you have ideas for changes let me know. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1666 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.215.96 |
Is it possible to make a separate page ? Then put a link to EN ? Even a link to Maranatha. At least people would be aware of its history. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 299 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
ok, I will try to make one. Problem is that it may just be removed unless I have enough of an argument of why there should be a seperate page and not just included in every nation. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1667 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.215.96 |
MSI has existed longer than EN. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 300 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
While Every Nation's links, or roots in Maranatha Campus Ministries are open to debate, Every Nation has found itself embroiled in other controversy. 2004/2005 saw complaints and a lawsuit from parents, at Hillsboro High School in Tennessee, that 'Victory Club' (associated to an Every Nation church, Bethel World Outreach Center) had hidden its true nature and that their daughters had been psychologically damaged by it. One is said to have suffered a nervous breakdown with the other attempting suicide. The student had been taking anti-depressant medication for a previous suicide attempt but discontinued the medication when a church staff member had told her that her relationship with God was strong enough that she no longer needed to take anti-depressive medication.[24] I have addded this to the every nation wiki page. I was debating about it because of the sensitive nature. There was small part on the Maranatha page but nothing on Every Nation. Finally I decided it was ok, with the exclusion of names. Let me know if you disagree. | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 900 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
IT will not stay up because the editorial control of the page has passed from Blue to an EN friendly editor...in order to gain control you will have to file a protest and demonstrate conclusively and factually WHY the page is biased on non nuetral | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1669 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.215.96 |
I do not think you can add it on EN wiki page. Thats their domain, thats why I am suggesting if anybody can start a new wiki under the name of MSI. EN has argued thats their name and they have the right to control it. And since MSI is no longer their name, I am assuming that we can put a lot of their history on MSI, then put a link to EN wiki. | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 68.210.117.151 |
I disagree--since MSI and EN are one and the same, it makes little sense to have two articles for the same one. I'm in the midst of adding something on Laffoon's sermon to the article as well. It's critical, since it appears this was the "real" reason behind the name change from MSI. | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 912 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
Blue: "real" reason behind the name change from MSI. Tikie: Exactly Blue EXACTLY!!!! | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 68.210.117.151 |
I just remembered--the EN people have a conniption fit mostly over the links to Maranatha. But putting in the DOCUMENTED non-Maranatha controversy is another matter (e.g., Laffoon's fascist-oriented '04 sermon, and the Global Cafe). If the EN people delete it, their credibility goes "poof!" | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 318 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
I added a quote box. What am I saying tonight? The nations, the earth, are up for grabs. Up for grabs. God has bestowed a new name on us. Every Nation Churches and Ministries. —Jim Laffoon , “To Reach and To Rule” MSI/EN World Conference[2] | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 68.210.117.151 |
Good one, Osaka ... now we need to figure out how to add in some of the more breathtaking parts of that sermon. Shoot me an email at blueboyphillie@yahoo.com | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 319 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
I would like to delete this, any objections? I feel it gives them to much kudos by linking them to 9/11 An example of a planted church is the church in New York City in the aftermath of the 9/11 tragedy known as Morning Star New York (MSNY). Acquired churches include places like Bethel Chapel in Nashville, founded and pastored by Bible teacher Ray McCollum, as well as Rick Shelton's church in Missouri. Another example is In Focus Church in Augusta, Georgia. | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 972 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Dan, that is strong! Do it! I was there in the audience the day Lafoon gave that speech to reach and rule. I got sick. Forword and I looked at each other, we were both visibly upset, couldn't hide it. We looked around and everyone was CHEERING. I'm saying to Forword, "did we hear this right." This crowd is brainwashed, but this is not Christ. We were so "creeped" out. For us, it was close to the end. But, why didn't we walk out right then and there? Well, we were feeling crazy by ouselves. Hadn't seen or heard of factnet yet. And, we were sitting with thousands of people cheering EN on. Same conference that the Newsboys performed for! Lots of propaganda, and confusion. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 320 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
Do you mean I am going to have to read thru all that xxxx  ? shooting off an email now. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 321 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
Who has knowledge of the newsboys and morning star/en? And something that can be referenced so it can't be removed. Didn'T Broocks/EN manage or maybe release their records at one time? | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 68.210.117.151 |
There's still a link to "Our Daily Blog" at the Newsboys main site--about the only overt EN reference I can find. And InPop Records lists the Newsboys on their "artists" page: http://www.inpop.com/artists.html InPop may not be officially a part of EN, but Broocks is on the board--along with Tony Boselli and Mark Brunell. | ||
| j2theperson Advanced Member Username: j2theperson Post Number: 588 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.129.139.177 |
Would it be good idea to make pages for some of the individual leaders--for Rice, Phil, Laffoon, et al? None of them seem to have individual pages yet. Within their biographies you could mention their previous connection to Maranatha as well as some of the financial improprieties. | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.148.79.57 |
Working on a section about Laffoon's '04 sermon ... it really merits its own section. And since it's NOT related to the claims that EN is Maranatha, it's gonna look pretty funny for them to take it out. The only hard choices are deciding what to put in, and how to not make it look like I'm taking him out of context (the most likely charge the EN crowd will throw up). | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.148.79.57 |
I doubt it, J2. Only because for all intents and purposes, the story of MSI/EN is the story of Broocks. Sound familiar? | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 328 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
Wikipedia has quite strong rules about biographical pages. Much easier to incorporate things into the other pages. (Message edited by osakadan on December 26, 2006) | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1674 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.220.103 |
Some of the people here tried to put something on EN wiki. I hope you guys are successful, because a lot of things were deleted by the EN people. | ||
| genesis_truth New member Username: genesis_truth Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 203.96.117.58 |
How do you put stuff on Wikipedia? Isn't it controlled by an organisation? | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 343 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
That is one of the good/bad things. Anyone can add,or delete anything. I added information about EVery Nation to the NZ high school pages last night but it has all been deleted this morning- just added again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Nation Go here and check the history and discussion buttons. You can see what goes on. | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 938 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
DAn it will not stand they control the page | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 345 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
Quite likely but the problem was before that Blueboy was doing this on his own. From what I read I don't think they have control as such and that is why they have not had success in having the pages locked. Arbitration has usually fell on EN's side but BB has been successful to some degree. Part of the problem is that he has put a lot of things up that are not referenced and are just speculation. I have done this with some things I expect to be challenged but this is with a purpose in mind. Other things such as a quote from the American Family Association that En are a cult will have to stand. There are a lot of changes, EN cannot just make a blanket change back to a version of 2 weeks ago as many of the entries are valid. In this way they will have to ask for mediation on many points. In all of this, many damning things such as the Victory Clubs will stay. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 346 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.237.120 |
The NZ HIgh School pages are another story. But I am using a strategy where I just revert to what I originally posted. After so many reverts it has to go to mediation are some of it will have to stand. Good thing is I am not in a battle with EN on these pages. At a minimum, a few sentences will stay, linking to the Victory club lawsuits. | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 939 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
Osaka:From what I read I don't think they have control as such and that is why they have not had success in having the pages locked. Tikie: Not to belabor the point but Wikkis are never locked- but editorial rights and control are granted editors. Blue was in control of the page and could decide what stayed and what did not. We lost control in August (I mean those of us who want to show EN for what it is). Control went to, I cannot remember her name but she is the PR person for EN. She filed a complaint or whatever it is called and the WIkki people came in to adjudicate and it was decided by Wikki adminstrators to give control. Here is how WIkki works Admin is decentralized and adminstrators are picked- much like our very absent DAN here on FACT (DAN only shows up if you offer $). The Admin for a section, in this case religions then polices (supposedly the sites). How does this work you might ask. Well it works because if someone posts something on Group A that person B disagrees with the file a challenge. Admin then investigates. It is like a land grab. Whoever is there first "owns" the page. BUT if it can be shown that the "owner" is biased, using non factual entries (not backed up by reputable third party references) someone can, in a WIKKI SORT of way "Sue" at the court of Wikki and plead for control. This is what happened with EN. THe EN people sued and said "Blue's page is biased he is a disgruntled exer with an axe to grind" They pointed to his blog, pointed to the lack (what they percieved as) references (Ulys timeline was one). They argued that Ulys timeline was circumstantial and proved no link from MCM to EN, they said my Blog was an Amateur (Amatuer by the way is great for a lover of a thing). End of story Wikki threw Blue out as Editor and installed a pro EN. Now the EN side must keep it "Nuetral" but the burden of proof is very hard otherwise. This was what my original post signaled...Jon Mosely is protesting Blues handling of the MCM site. Someone removed our links. This is what started happening before we "lost" control of the EN site. You can edit your heart out on EN but NONE of it will stand unless you are willing to go through the laborious task of protesting and it seems to me that they are keeping EN Page very innocuous. To win this is all they have to do. Make it appear safe. | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 79 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 74.227.190.41 |
Something I just thought should be on the MCM Wiki page--other instances of outrageous statements by EN's brass that are similar to statements Weiner made in his more Hitlerian moods. All I can find so far that's verifiable is Laffoon's screed in '04. Anything else? | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.146.182.84 |
A few EN supporters did some tweaking to the EN article earlier--but they didn't bother to take out the section I added on Laffoon's screed. Checkmate! | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1693 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.217.59 |
Blueboy, is it in Wiki page that said that the lawsuit was dismissed or thrown out ? because according to public record , its Dropped and it is sealed. Is it possible to correct that ? | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 89 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.146.182.84 |
Done already, Ginger ... surprised the EN people didn't catch it either. Another tacit admission? | ||
| sunshinesaint Member Username: sunshinesaint Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 124.197.13.64 |
Osakadan: can I email you privately?? Please let me know what address to email you at. Thanks | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 374 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.5.37 |
Edit: just saw your email in another thread so will mail you my address Sunshine. (Message edited by osakadan on January 06, 2007) | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 968 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
Okay Blue and Dan you managed to manuever very well on the EN page. Nice work and keep it up!!!!! | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1287 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.100.179 |
I second that! | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1694 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.217.59 |
Under affiliated organization, Can that include World Partner ? Strategic China Initiative and Frontline Partners ? | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1290 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
World Partners isn't exactly an organization but a fund raising initiative. Frontline Partners is the same (despite its being separately incorporated unlike World Partners) but is specifically affiliated with one church, Trinity Church in Dallas, not EN as a whole. SCI is a different story - I would say that qualifies as an affiliated organization. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 418 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.23.250 |
Does anyone have a list of churches that have left EN? Might be nice to add this to wikipedia. | ||
| genesis_truth Member Username: genesis_truth Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 124.197.16.222 |
Dan, Nice work on the churches leaving EN. Have you had any issues since putting it up? I wonder how long it will stay, from what I understand, they can't really do much because it is quite clearly fact. Is that right? | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 448 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.23.250 |
They made a change maybe about 10 days ago but blueboy reverted it back. I think they won't change the list of leaving churches because it is relevant and we can argue its inclusion. Especially considering they put up a list of member churches. The long lists of churches leaving really highlights the problems to me. Should send up red flags to normal people. | ||
| genesis_truth Member Username: genesis_truth Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 124.197.16.222 |
Definitely. Who changes things from their side do you think? Is it the leaders or just some zealous person in the church? | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 450 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.23.250 |
Impossible to say really. But from lack of vigilance, I would say just a member. I check in at least twice a day to see if there are changes. | ||
| blueboy96 Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 65.13.234.70 |
Something else I thought should be there--I remember hearing that MorningStar Christian Church of Lawrence (formerly part of EN) was the homebase for the infamous K-State chapter. Any way that can be verified? | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 1000 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
Is it the leaders or just some zealous person in the church? Tikie: It is their PR person you can look on the comments section for her name | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 65.13.234.70 |
She hasn't been active in awhile, though. And she has a lot more character than her bosses--she even admitted that what the Wrong-Waymakers did to me was wrong. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1314 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.38.160.164 |
Blueboy, MSC Lawrence is, sort of. Unlike some of the other MCM chapters that maintained their original corporate charters, they dissolved the original corporation and reincorporated, back in late 93-early 94. But according to people who were involved at the time it was otherwise the same church/ministry. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.146.168.17 |
I dunno, UL ... that may not be enough to stand up to a challenge. My hunch is that if I put that in, they'll delete it in a hurry. Osakadan, Tikie--your thoughts? But AIO and AEO are another matter--they were founded predominantly (if not entirely) by Wrong-Waymakers, and at last check, former Wrong-Waymakers make up a majority of the board of both of them. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 116 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 65.13.234.70 |
Our friend Thelma might be getting active again ... she created another archive for the discussion page on the EN Wiki article. But I think we've checkmated her--she hasn't bothered to tweak any of the changes Osakadan and I made. We'll just have to wait and see. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 172.166.23.70 |
I guess not--Thelma's done some wholesale deletions. O-Dan and I are trying to fight it--but any help you guys can give would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1360 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Has she deleted sections that had citations? I did notice that she disputed and tried to remove "To Reach and To Rule" as having "undue weight and not reputable." Hmm, this is for sale in EN's online store, in the 2004 World Conference series. I have the ORIGINAL on CD (it seems only the DVD is available now). It's not an unofficial copy either but the ORIGINAL from EN, in their packaging and with their labeling. I transcribed it from the original, and included a citation to the original recording. This sermon was an official explanation by Every Nation's top prophetic leader why Morning Star was renamed Every Nation. I wonder how much more reputable it has to be to pass Ms. Bowlen's muster. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 172.166.23.70 |
Your guess is as good as mine, UL--the most benign explanation I can think of is that Ms. Bowlen joined EN after '04 and doesn't know of the DVD's existence. She's setting herself up to be reamed. Big-time reamed. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1361 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Benign or not, she needs to check her sources first imho before labeling something as "not reputable" in Wikipedia. I included a citation with the transcript so that anyone could see for themselves whether it's true or not. It's transcribed verbatim from the ORIGINAL I have in my possession. The same recording that anyone else could purchase for themselves from EN's website if they've got $120 to spend, or which Ms. Bowlen should be able to locate in the EN offices or in the church bookstore. | ||
| genesis_truth Intermediate Member Username: genesis_truth Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 124.197.13.116 |
To reach and rule has gone again as is the legal disputes | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1367 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
genesis_truth, To Reach and To Rule reveals that not one but now TWO of their public positions on their website are highly suspect. Especially this one. This may be a big surprise to anyone who has gone through ENLI, the advanced ministry schools, or have attended conferences, and have been told that Every Nation has a mandate to take dominion of all spheres of society, including culture, government, military, etc. and that if they are faithful to this apostolic mandate, God will literally give them nations to rule. I seem to remember that Rice Broocks may have written a book about the apostolic mandate. Wasn't it EVERY NATION in Our Generation: Recovering the Apostolic Mandate...? Maybe that's gone by the wayside along with Jim Laffoon's A Divine Alliance. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 172.147.111.235 |
All's not lost ... it could get back in once we demonstrate that are arguments are based on verifiable information. And we can. Thelma won't be able to fight her way out of this one--like I said earlier, EN's so fixated on deflecting the Maranatha ties that they won't be able to do a heckuva lot about it. For those who want to follow what's going on, check out the talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Every_Nation | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.43.83 |
Little update, guys ... I suggested on the talk page that EN Productions either give permission for the audio or video of the conference--or at least Laffoon's speech--to be released. Or at least, they could post it on YouTube. Their response so far? (sound of crickets chirping) I can only conclude one of two things--either EN trying to goad us into breaking the law by putting the actual speech online, or they're just not interested in mediating the article in good faith. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that UL misheard it--that speech could do a lot to clear EN's name. So why aren't they releasing it. But that's OK. Anyone who has a blog, copy that transcript and post it there. They wanna play hardball? Well, so can we. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1951 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.147.95.203 |
Good job blueboy thanks for all your hard work it seems like the sexy Thelma does not even want EN's main prophet to have his say in the To Reach and to Rule junk concerning the EN site on Wiki. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.43.83 |
I just posted about that sermon in Talk2Action: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/2/26/112619/091 | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1387 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Hmm, don't know as if I want to be considered the "intellectual leader of the EN refuseniks," lol. Just someone who is trying to speak the truth. But IMHO trying to hide or deny the existence or importance of "To Reach and to Rule" is not particularly honest, intellectually or otherwise. | ||
| maranatha1984 Senior Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 1048 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
As i have said EN is a business pure and simple. They cannot release financial statements- it would expose them for what they are. Or perhaps they are a benign charitable organization with salaries in line with other mainline churches and financial streams controlled by an outside board and funneled by the local congregations. Perhaps not. Regardless a release of financial statements would simply clear the air. Why can't these be released. I cannot believe it is because they are not organized enough (our 300 member congregational church manages to release quarterly statements that shows everything including the pastors salary and any additional gifts that he might have recieved (we replaced his 12 year old mini van with a brand new Volvo SUV this year through an "off line campaign" you should have seen the look on this humble man's face. Okay EN- Steve Murell- you have made reforms -your roots are not with MCM- you are another mainstream church- so where are the financial statements????? And although they make mistakes- they will not make the mistake that Bob W made- leave "crazy"teachings out in the open for others to see...or perhaps they are not crazy- perhaps they are the pure and simple gospel--- wheels within wheels | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 138 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
Thelma finally came out of hiding a few days ago--now she argues that to even state the allegations of the Hillsboro suit is misleading. Hellooooo, McFly! I have never, EVER, heard of a story involving a dropped case that doesn't mention the allegations. If I tried to write a story like that, my editor would ball it up and throw it back in my face. She also strongly implies that the "To Reach and to Rule" sermon doesn't even exist, claiming it's "original research." Wikipedia has strict rules against introducing any kind of material that can't be attributed to a reliable source. And yet, UL was quoting from EN's OWN material that is still (as as I write this) being sold at the EN Store. They've fallen right into the trap, as I see it. They're trying to scrub the page in order to keep out anything even the teensiest bit controversial about them, and turn Wikipedia into their own PR agency. In the name of the letter of Wikipedia's rules, they're violating the spirit of the rules. And in the process, they're violating the rules themselves by insisting THEIR view is the only legitimately neutral view. They made their agenda even more blatant when some dude in New Zealand cut out the stuff about the related businesses. But O-Dan reverted it back. Check out the talk page for some of the arguments--but be sure you're sitting down, they're just plain laughable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Every_Nation | ||
| osakadan Advanced Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 697 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.9.186 |
Victory Christian Fellowship There is a revert war going on here. They are trying to delete that they were part of Maranatha. Now someone has nominated the page for deletion. I am totally against this as it would hide their origins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Christian_Fellowship I especially ask that you weigh in on the discussion page. You do not need to be a member but it would add more weight. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Victory_Christian_Fellowship | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 266 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.157 |
Well you won that round. The deletion request was withdrawn. The actual page seems controlled by you right now. It is definitely no PR tool in it's current state, but the info is accurate. I'm sure there'll be more exciting action to come as the MCM stuff doesn't look too good for them  as it is written. | ||
| littlechamp New member Username: littlechamp Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 85.195.123.26 |
I can't believe that they can't flippin back down on the reach and rule thing - I have got the DVD and the CD series and I have geard it. I was alos personally there and listened to him spout it - made me uncomfortable at the time. We must be hitting them pretty close to the mark for them to get so riled up and freaked out about it being there. If they are so stressed out, why do they not remove it from their little bookshop??? The arguments sound stupid and desperate and they are totally clutching at straws! I ccanot wait for EN to come crashing down! It has caused me struggle and pain and to see them try to doctor what is on Wiki refkects like they were when I was in church with them - manipulating the facts in order to try and make them look good. What "christ-like" people!! Real good of them. Seriously though - the wiki page does look good and it does not seem entirely flattering to them which is all the more better. They have too,lobg sought to take the glory of God upon themselves in order to make money, appear spiritual, and garner power. They need to be finished. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 269 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.157 |
Welcome to the board (though I see you registered in Jan. so maybe you've posted before)littlechamp. It is pretty amazing that they are fighting that. You'ld think they'd look within and be true to the facts and let the chips fall where they may. I agree its very un-Christian to lie and manipulate facts. If they're going to preach that stuff, they ought to just stand by it and let people decide if they want to join the cause or not instead of pretending they are something they are not. Of all that stuff, this is the least biased and most encyclopedic of all anyway as it is only negative if one views that ministry vision as bad thing. Some people are all for it, so why do they sweat it? | ||
| osakadan Advanced Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 699 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.9.186 |
I have to agree with you there xman. Some people will see the quote as a negative, others, a positive. Either Laffoon is a prophet who received the new name or not. They should stand by it. Trying to spin control the situation really shows EN for what they are. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 140 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
It's not going to do them a lot of good, Littlechamp ... I've got a link to where they're selling it on their store saved on my hard drive, so I know it was there. I also check it periodically to see if they've brazened it out and deleted it. I doubt they'd be that stupid--but then again, you've got their flack-in-chief asserting one minute that there's a problem with the sourcing, then implying it doesn't even exist in the next. Littlechamp, just so you know, at least two other regular posters--Dust and Forword--were at that conference as well ... so now we've got at least THREE witnesses to what Jim LaLoon spewed. I can see them calling one person a liar, but three? They can't be that desperate. Here's something else, O-Dan--if UL did misquote it, why are they so skittish about posting it on YouTube or letting us post it somewhere? Simple: they're trying to goad us into releasing it ourselves (and thus triggering a copyright infringement suit they'd win easily), and they're not the least bit interested in mediating that article in good faith. | ||
| maranatha1984 Senior Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 1050 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.218.178.39 |
FACTNET is down as an external link on the MCM Wikkepedia Link | ||
| osakadan Advanced Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 702 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.9.186 |
If anyone has the Laffoon dvd I am willing to post the excerpt on youtube. There is a large possibility it is allowed under fair usage rules but at the end of the day sue me. The court system isn't quite the same in Japan. fixed the link. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1971 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
Why are they denying the words that came out of Lafoons mouth? I was doing some cleaning a few weeks a go and came across some literature the Mack sent me about the NOLR and it kind of shocked me. Most here believe one day Jesus will come back with the saints and angels in the clouds and set up his earthly rule. The hardcore of the NOLR believe that JESUS returning??? it's them. They believe the end time scriptures refer to a return of a corporate Christ (not our Jesus), a many membered man child who will reach and rule. This is not some esoteric 17th century philosophy that is nebulous, the hard core of the NOLR believe this junk and it appears that Lafoon has bought in to the theology. Hence the deletion of the words that were cheered at that conference. Anyway what the upper ups really believe is startling and shocking and they won't even allow it to be referred to on Wiki. Guys that run EN, you aint Jesus, sorry. Nice house Jimbob;). | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1972 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
I guess I should have said Timbob. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 141 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
Don't risk it, O-Dan ... just let them stew in their own juices. Either they release it themselves, or they keep stonewalling and torpedo their credibility. 40Days, it's simple ... they've always tried to portray themselves as a run-of-the-mill charismatic group, and now they're doing it even more aggressively. But they won't be able to get away with it ... they may have been able to pull off this snowjob 20 years ago, but not now in the Internet age. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1913 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.211.138 |
Osakadan, thats a great idea to put that in youtube. What are they going to do, you are in Japan . Laws in Japan are different there than here. | ||
| osakadan Advanced Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 707 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.9.186 |
And for family reasons, other than a few suits and a computer, I don't legally own anything. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1979 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
Everything is in the cats names that is just like EN. | ||
| osakadan Advanced Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 710 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.9.186 |
Learnt something in my MCM days afterall  | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 142 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
I'm just afraid that they may try to pin it on one of us in the States. I'm not putting anything past them, Ginger. We've got them on the run so far ... dunno if it's worth the risk. | ||
| osakadan Advanced Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 711 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.9.186 |
How can they pin something on anyone? They would need to supeona records from youtube and if they were successful it would lead to an ip address at an internet cafe. And frankly, I don't care if it traces back to me. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1914 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.211.138 |
Blueboy96, currently Osakadan said he is in Japan. And he would want to put it in youtube, there is really not much investigation right there. EN want to trace it, then go ahead, to Japan. Its the same thing what EN is doing, they have set up the finances in the Philippines so that the US Goverment can't touch it, its overseas. We are doing exactly what they are doing, let the foreigner do it. EN has to prove that its one of us, which they can't. Because it will just trace it there. If I have the tape, I will send it personally FEDEX to Osakadan. | ||
| dust Senior Member Username: dust Post Number: 1249 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Littlechamp, just so you know, at least two other regular posters--Dust and Forword--were at that conference as well ... so now we've got at least THREE witnesses to what Jim LaLoon spewed. I can see them calling one person a liar, but three? They can't be that desperate. On one hand I finally feel vindicated that other people are as alarmed about this speech as I was when I heard it from Jim Lafoon's MOUTH to my EARS, and on the other hand, I am upset that they would try to cover this up. This speech is quintessentially EVERY NATION, and it should haunt them going forward. This was a PIVOTAL KEY SPEECH at a world wide conference and was PURPOSEFUL. By this point of Every Nation, they were extremely arrogant. Most of the speeches were unbearable, especially Peter Wagner. He sounded like one of the eccentrics that speaks at "health" conferences...the ones where people wear pyramids on their heads. But, when Lafoon preached his REACH AND RULE, it's a moment I'll never forget. I felt like we were sitting with people that were "pods" not real, because they didn't have the same reaction we did... | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1992 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.157.25 |
That was a pure NOLR speech. If EN does not renounce it they own it. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 143 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
It's simple, Dust. They simply aren't used to playing with anything other than a deck they've loaded in their favor. But now they've exposed their agenda on Wikipedia for all to see. News flash, EN ... this is the Internet age. You're not gonna be able to run and hide like cockroaches scurrying away when the lights come on. No matter how many times you try to keep it out of Wikipedia, that speech is going to dog you until the end of time. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1226 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.162.134.243 |
Hi All Catching up, I am home now, nice feeling. About Jim's speech, I could barely listen to it, ; it was straight from Maranatha. En apparently made Leo Lawson the scapegoat in the odd theology department. It is not true; they all, we all thought and taught these things, openly. As this speech was given openly.} | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 144 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
Here's Thelma's original objection to "To Reach and to Rule":
Now, here's her next objection, almost a month later:
In other words ... within less than a month, Ms. Bowlen has gone from criticizing the way it was cited to implying it doesn't exist. This isn't a smoking gun, guys--this is a mushroom cloud. (Message edited by blueboy96 on March 11, 2007) | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
Another charismatic/pentecostal cult is also engaged in a Wiki war, the New Testament Christian Church: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/28756.html?1173325543 I was initially surprised that small-timers like NTCC and EN can devote this much time to scrubbing their image on Wikipedia. But then again, they've stayed under the radar for so long that they can get away with it--unlike Scientology and ICOC. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1915 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.211.138 |
Good reason why EN and Jim Lafoon needs to be put in Youtube. They will finally stop denying it. Remember Steve Murrell ? He always got to have several hundreds of people left the church before he do anything. By that time the Spiritual abuse has gone so far, I was told one person committed suicide due to the abuses in his ministry. It needs to be put in Youtube, so they have to learn to look at themselves. And Churches /People need to know . By the way, even the person who committed suicide due to his pastor. That pastor is still EMPLOYED in his church. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 146 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
I still don't know if that's the way to go, Ginger ... besides, Thelma hung herself already. She blew this sermon off as the view of "a single pastor in EN." Um, Thelma? We're talking about a guy who has been one of the major leaders in MSI/EN for a decade (and is probably the third-ranking leader now). This isn't just a "single pastor." They've backed themselves into a real corner here. Either they're getting ready to throw LaLoon under the bus (unlikely, since he's playing consigliere at Bethel), deny it in the face of overwhelming evidence, or they release that video themselves (or give permission for us to put it out). Either way, they're gonna have to take some medicine. Wal-Mart tried to snow people with fake blogs, and they were blown out of the water. We can do the same ... I just think there's a way to do it by shaming them into releasing that video themselves. And if it's been edited out, we've got three witnesses to what really happened. Tikie, put excerpts of this in your blog, and be sure to cite it as coming from EN. Spread it far and wide ... the more pressure on them, the better. They've already proven they can't handle playing with a fair deck. (Message edited by blueboy96 on March 12, 2007) | ||
| j2theperson Advanced Member Username: j2theperson Post Number: 717 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.129.139.177 |
What's up with your blog anyway, Tik? It's been like months since you last updated. Your public is getting anxious.  | ||
| osakadan Advanced Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 724 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 218.130.221.129 |
A number of people have indicated with me privately that part&s of Laffoon&s speech should go onto youtube. Today, I received legal advice from a law professor here in Japan and he feels that is fine under fair usage rules. Hopefully it will be up under my osakadan account within the next week. But hey Thelma, you know who I am anyway, I wrote to VCF as to why you are trying to deny your links to Maranatha, and still no response. Undue weight - bullcrap. Your (ahem) prophet gave your members the reason why you changed the name to EN. If God gave you the name you should be proud. Why do you shy away from it now? | ||
| jesusisawesome Advanced Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 789 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.105 |
J2, Tikie still has plans to continue. He has been caught up with work. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1414 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
o-dan, I so find it hard to believe that VCF could deny their links to Maranatha since that was founded as a Maranatha church plant in the mid 80s and its beginnings were described in great detail in several official and semi-official EN websites and publications, including Rice Broocks' book, Every Nation in Our Generation. The relevant excerpts were even up on EN's site for a while. | ||
| maranatha1984 Senior Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 1055 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
J2: what up with the blog/ Tikie; Kind of pressed- athough I have been decorating it- with new photos and doing some editing. I have four helpers on the next three and final parts- and they are swamped and I am swamped- but I do plan on brining it home- and have put into motion some e-mails I think will help. Thanks for the interest-J2 Blue- count on it... | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
Guess they're more desperate than we thought, UL. Anna Freud did say that denial is a sign of an immature mind. Oh, wait ... they're supposedly VERY spiritually mature, since they're the mind of Christ. Silly us ... God's ways aren't our ways. | ||
| anti_fascist Intermediate Member Username: anti_fascist Post Number: 165 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 85.195.123.22 |
Interesting that EN is advertising the presence of Ron Luce at their July Leadership conference. Now, for a group that claims that it doesn't adhere to Dominion Theology, associating with Ron Luce Ministries does appear strange. Maybe you should mention this to dearest Ms Thelma? | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
I did and a bunch of other things UL and I dug up linking them to dominion theology--including occasions where King Rice, King Steve and King Brett DISCUSSED it at EN conferences. No response so far ... though I did notice that when a rank-and-file ENer tried to make some edits (which O-dan reverted back), she didn't touch the Laffoon quote. Telling, I think. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2048 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.227.120 |
Well blueboy they may like the dominion talk but these guys are running out of time like all of the middle aged folks here. They are having problems excercising dominion over Wiki let alone this place and we should be like shooting fish in a barrel to them (considering our spiritual state) if their theology is correct.  . | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 158 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.75.41.249 |
Well, O-dan and I did some heavy-duty surgery to the EN Wiki over the weekend ... we'll have to wait and see if Thelma comes out of hiding. We've cited everything we could ... let's see them whine now. It's pretty telling that some pro-EN editors have cut some stuff out, but left the Laffoon quote and some other stuff that Thelma cut out untouched. Perhaps we're knocking a few scales off the eyes ... | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1436 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Just found this over on the Wikipedia Help Desk - it was posted on 14 March 2007:
(Message edited by ulyankee on March 21, 2007) | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 162 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.132.39.72 |
Wikipedia has a sister site for quotations called Wikiquote. I started a page for EN: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Every_Nation Add anything if you want--but make sure it's sourced. Methinks the pro-EN crowd will add some as well ... the cyberworld can look at both and judge for itself. | ||
| blueboy96 Intermediate Member Username: blueboy96 Post Number: 168 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.132.39.72 |
O-dan's info on the mortgage loans Malachi made to Broocks and Bonasso got taken out ... apparently there's a concern that due to the way it was sourced, it could border on a privacy violation. Like Ginger mentioned earlier, Wikipedia has very strict rules regarding info on living people. Dates to when somebody actually got libeled in his own article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigenthaler_controversy I would think that since the issue is with the sourcing rather than the content, Guidestar would be a reliable source ... let's hope ... | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1264 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.146.245.242 |
Blueboy, On the mortgages, those details are commonly public record.I hope this helps.} | ||
| maranatha1984 Senior Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 1061 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
Not to tip our hand but we have a lot of work going on on the ole blog that will start nailing some of this down from folks who were at the core from the beginning to 2004-05. Four folks helping me out here- lots of writing and phone calls etc- it is taking much longer than I anticipated- perhaps in the next three weeks will have two more installments up that will take us right into the heart of EN~MSI...standby and say a prayer that it will actually happen | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.57.59 |
I noticed the last few times i went on the wiki page, the factnet links didn't work. I think there was another one that didn't work too. |
