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enlightenment_man
Intermediate Member
Username: enlightenment_man
Post Number: 183
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 67.186.74.83
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 5:27 pm: | 
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I thought I would start a thread about John Hagee and all the "apocalypse now" morons on TV.
These people are so laughable, especially John Hagee. They write this crap about how and when the world will end and how current Middle East affairs are a signal for the impending Armageddon. Most of these guys don't know sh*t about the Middle East (or the Bible for that matter).
Someone I know was listening to another doom and gloom peddler, Hal Lindsey, say that Venezuela is using their oil reserves to manipulate the Euro to weaken the U.S. dollar in a scheme to bring down the United States. I know, it sounds ridiculous to even read it.
People like this should worry about today and stop trying to anticipate the end of humanity. What's even worse is the fact that most of these ignorant clowns use the doom and gloom scare tactics to make money on their crappy, intellectually deprived books and tapes. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3038
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.241.6.69
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 6:49 pm: |
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dear not enlighten man.. i sense that you do not believe in the end time messeges. now i know that NO NE KNOWS THE DAY NR HOUR when JESUS will return. there are a lot of speculation about the end times there are some that are specfic such as JESUS will return. but to say that we should live for the now well that is not true we should be ready for the hereafter. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3039
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.241.6.69
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 6:50 pm: |
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oh and i should say i do not listen too or believe all that john hagee teaches |
enlightenment_man
Intermediate Member
Username: enlightenment_man
Post Number: 184
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 67.186.74.83
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 8:58 pm: |
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I don't listen to that idiot at all. I have to listen to his garbage regurgitated by people I know.
We should live for "hereafter"? Why should I live in anticipation of an event that is neither certain nor directly implied by the Bible anyway? You're right. I don't believe in "end times prophecy" or whatever you want to call it.
"dear not enlighten man"
Nice stab at an insult, though I would take it much more seriously if you could actually spell words properly and construct intelligible sentences.
BTW, it's enlighten-ment man. Get it right.
(Message edited by enlightenment_man on December 14, 2006) |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 581
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
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Dear enlighten-ment man
Why do you always have to be such a snot? aaron is really a very sweet person, as you would know if you bothered to read anything he posts on other threads here or on other sites. You are so quick to judge, criticize and crucify anyone who just may disagree with you. You blow your Christian witness everytime you use your keyboard to attack other members of the Body of Christ.
BTW, I happen to agree with you and aaron. I don't care for John Hagee at all. I find him a very rambling teacher, if you can call him that. By the time he's done, I can't recall what the topic/subject was. As for the end times, I believe we ARE in them - but when Jesus will return is known only by the Father. Jesus Himself told the disciples this.
Mat 24:36 "But the exact day and hour? No one knows that, not even heaven's angels, not even the Son. Only the Father knows. |
ba2
Advanced Member
Username: ba2
Post Number: 723
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 165.189.16.135
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 5:09 pm: |
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enlightenment_man:
you said, “People like this should worry about today and stop trying to anticipate the end of humanity. What's even worse is the fact that most of these ignorant clowns use the doom and gloom scare tactics to make money on their crappy, intellectually deprived books and tapes.” You have that exactly right. Unless one is a charlatan, there is absolutely no purpose to promote the end of times. What possible good could it do? It definitely could cause a lot of harm. Example: if one believes in eternal salvation and/or damnation, it doesn’t matter if the end comes today or billions of years from today. But, if you are convinced that the end will come in our lifetime, why would one find it important to work hard to better themselves or to convince their children to prepare for a future world. May as well drop out of school now or take retirement while I have the chance. Worse still, may as well turn over all my saving to the flim-flam preacher – no need to pass it on to my children. If one is convinced that the end is very near, it makes them very susceptible of being conned.
cybermom:
perfect quote, no one knows the timing. I would add, anyone who claims to have scriptural proof or signs of the impending end is either a liar a fool or both. |
enlightenment_man
Intermediate Member
Username: enlightenment_man
Post Number: 186
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 67.186.74.83
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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Amen, ba2. Well said. That's exactly how I see it. There is no logical reason to promote the end of the world. Most of the people who do promote these "end times" are either insane or looking for profit (a la Y2K).
Get off my back CM. Go bother someone else with your platitudes. You can quit the whole "moral grandma gives advice to young man" crap. What the hell do you care anyway?
After all, I'm just a "pompous, arrogant windbag who makes trs/infoman look like Captain Kangaroo" Isn't that right, CM?
It appears I'm not the only one who's a "snot." |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 582
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 7:21 pm: |
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After all, I'm just a "pompous, arrogant windbag who makes trs/infoman look like Captain Kangaroo" Isn't that right, CM?
You've proved it yourself time and again with no help from me or anyone else - this post is only one example.
It's too bad that you still don't get it. By your ungodly language and superior attitude, you show that perhaps the robbites are right.
You don't want to get off the robbites' backs; why should I get off yours? Just because you say so? And I'm not trying to be the "moral grandma (who)gives advice to young man". Who are YOU trying to be? A disrespectful pompous brat who disdains anyone you think is beneath you? Then you're no better than Robb and his bunch. In fact, you sound just like him - maybe he had more influence on you than you think. Or are you one of the FHC kids? Because you certainly couldn't disprove it by your posts.
Cybermom |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 390
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.64.146.249
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 11:14 pm: |
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Mat 24:36 "But the exact day and hour? No one knows that, not even heaven's angels, not even the Son. Only the Father knows."
Yes it says not "the exact day and hour", but it doesn't say that one couldn't come close by discerning the era, the decade, the month or the week... There is much in the Word that points to the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
EVERY SECOND THAT PASSES, WE ARE CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE CHOSEN TIME FOR HIS ARRIVAL. IN FACT, NO GENERATION HAS EVER BEEN CLOSER...
The only doom and gloom I read into that is that IF He is to return soon, we have precious little time to reach lost family members and loved ones... |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 391
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.64.146.249
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 11:16 pm: |
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Make no mistake about it, He is returning for a glorious church without spot or wrinkle, only by the cleansing of the water of the Word can the spots be removed and the wrinkles ironed out!... |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 805
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 11:50 pm: |
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One of the best encouraging words God has and shows of His nature and plan is His display of love and longsuffering for His own. He rescues all who make their choice to receive Him and made a way where there was no way sending Himself to redeem us all.
Revelation states those who read these words are BLESSED and those who hear them read ARE BLESSED.
Its not doom and gloom. This is Good News opportunity and invitation to all showing the goodness of God.
Revelation 1
1THIS IS the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John,
2Who has testified to and vouched for all that he saw [[b]in his visions], the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3Blessed (happy, to be envied) is the man who reads aloud [in the assemblies] the word of this prophecy; and blessed (happy, [d]to be envied) are those who hear [it read] and who keep themselves true to the things which are written in it [heeding them and laying them to heart], for the time [for them to be fulfilled] is near. |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 583
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 9:43 am: |
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Finally!!! I think we're all in agreement on this one. It is such a blessing to see that even tho we can disagree on some minor points, we can agree on the major ones: That Jesus will return soon in triumph for His Bride that will be without spot or wrinkle.
(Message edited by Cybermom on December 17, 2006) |
enlightenment_man
Intermediate Member
Username: enlightenment_man
Post Number: 187
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 67.186.74.83
| | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 1:30 pm: |
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Hey, good to see you getagrip. I missed you.
CM:
This is not the FHC thread, go discuss Robb-ya Thompson where it is appropriate to do so.
(Message edited by enlightenment_man on December 17, 2006) |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 584
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 1:47 pm: |
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enlighten-ment
Obviously, you didn't read my last post. No big surprise. It would kill you to have to admit that some of the people here you disdain actually agree with someone of your superior intellect and spiritual "enlightenment".
Sorry, I'll post whatever and where ever I desire. If you don't like the rules, then go play in someone else's sandbox. You only show your arrogance by telling me what and where to post. And temper, temper... flaming isn't necessary. I'm so intimidated by your superiority and rapier wit that I may just roll up my keyboard and go home.
Getagrip
Long time no see! Gee, how do you rate - em actually missed you!! I feel so rejected because he didn't miss me!!
CM |
enlightenment_man
Intermediate Member
Username: enlightenment_man
Post Number: 189
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 67.186.74.83
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 6:14 pm: |
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Wow, your so funny. On most forums it is recommended that you stay on topic. Apparently, FactNet is more liberal.
You can discern my mood through a computer screen? Wow, you are so gifted. I was actually laughing when I read your post. I wasn't angry at all.
I disagree with getagrip, but at least he appreciates my wit and sarcasm and doesn't get his titties in a twist everytime I make a blunt post. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 653
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 5:44 pm: |
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Since this thread is about John Hagee, I want to bring it back there.
I used to enjoy him, but I have a difficult time now, and I can point to the exact moment that it changed.
Back in 2003, when the War began, Hagee was preaching about end times. After listing off some interesting data, he said that we need to watch for "in a matter of months, not years, we will see the glorious return of Jesus Christ."
He was predicting that Jesus was going to return within a few months! Excuse me!
That is a very dangerous thing to do. We are to be watchful for this event, but not predict when it will take place. we must understand the season, but not predict the return of Jesus.
Also, the end time should be one of excitement for Christians, not the proverbial "Doom and Gloom". |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 209
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.151.243.63
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 7:37 pm: |
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I used to like Hagee somewhat. What caused me to be totally suspect of him was hearing him praise TBN and say Paul Crouch had not wandered from the old paths. He can't be that scripturally ignorant so what's his motive? I don't trust any of them any more.
Hayford said the same thing and everyone thinks he is so smart. They're all leading people down a false gospel road.
I too believe we are in the very end times. |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 592
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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Maybe he was right about Paul Crouch not wandering off old paths after all; he was a charlatan and scammer back then, and is still one today. Weird about Hayford, tho. I have liked his preaching in the past - haven't heard anything by him lately, tho.
All the WOF "preachers" have to stick together; if not they will fall over like a stack of dominoes. Discrediting each other means less $$$ as people become disallusioned. Keep up the illusions and the $$ keeps coming in. And on and on it goes. |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 210
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.142.153.79
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 5:03 pm: |
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Cybermom...I bet you hit the nail on the head. Amazing how easily dispensable truth is to them.
I was surprised to hear Hayford say that too. More like shocked at the time though I shouldn't have been since he and Crouch are still comrades in arms. Now they all just fade into a big blur to me. When they knowingly and so easily renege on truth about anything, they lose me. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 399
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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Hayford, Crouch and Hagee are NOT Word of Faith preachers... in fact, please define, in your understanding, a WOF preacher/teacher. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 251
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.185.227.35
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 12:54 am: |
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Getagrip:
I agree that Hayford is not a WOF preacher. But, why do you believe Crouch and Hagee are NOT WOF? I pretty much consider Hagee and Crouch as WOF adherents... at least Hagee invites WOF folks to preach in his church (Jesse Duplantis comes once a year, if that says anything). |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 400
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 7:03 am: |
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Hello jbkrems:
Well, not to split hairs but inviting one to your church and teaching a style of doctrine are two different things.
a) Does Hagee teach the baptism of the Holy Spirit? How about the doctrine of tongues?
b) I heard him denounce WOF specifically, and also specifically name Bro Hagin in that sermon.
c) If someone teaches, for instance that God allows things to happen to you to test you, to correct you, to rebuke you, etc. rather than that the devil seeks to steal, kill and destroy and that God allows what YOU allow as you have been given authority over darkness... then you have a WOF wannabe or WOF lite.
Which is fine, if you like Hayford, Hagee, Joyce Meyer, Paula White, etc you should listen to them but this lumping together of everyone who is on TV and who preaches tongues, prosperity and healing as "Word of Faith" is inaccurate.
Now jbkrems back to the original point, please define a WOF preacher/teacher, in your understanding? |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2458
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
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Isn't Jane Whaley out of North Carolina- part of the WOF movement? |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 212
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.142.153.79
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:02 pm: |
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John Hagee believes WOf to some extent and sanctifies Crouch and Oral Roberts and other Wof'ers. I believe hid church is charismatic. You just don't see that in his weekly telecasts.
All who sit with and support Crouch and participate in TBN's telethons bring themselves under rightful suspicion imo. Crouch wants you to believe what he says while he says doo-doo on God's Word...unless he is twisting it to support the ungodly messages and focus of his 'ministry' (I use that word lightly with regard to him).
(Message edited by anony on December 28, 2006) |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 401
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 2:56 pm: |
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"John Hagee believes WOf"
OK, I'll try again... define what a WOF preacher/teacher is. He "believes WOF", is WOF a person, an idea, a concept? WHAT EXACTLY, IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING, IS "WOF"? |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 216
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.142.153.79
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 3:02 pm: |
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He believes ministers have a right to become wealthy off the backs of their flocks. That's about as WOF as it gets. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 252
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.185.227.35
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
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Getagrip:
a) Yes, Hagee teaches baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. This makes him a charismatic, but not necessarily Word of Faith.
b) I've never heard Hagee denounce WOF, or even specifically mention Bro. Hagin (good or bad), in any sermon. I'd be VERY surprised if he really did that. Do you recall the context of this sermon, and when it was given???
Pastor Hagee's background is Assemblies of God (he's ordained under AG). He works with Hagin, Jr. and many other WOF proponents on his current pro-Israel project, CUFI. I find it hard to believe he would denounce WOF. What exactly did he say???
c) Yeah, Hagee does teach that, but so does every other "WOF" minister that I know. Joyce Meyer teaches that, so does Joel Osteen, and even Ken Copeland and Hagin, Jr. My own pastor does, too.
Jack Hayford, however, is charismatic, but not WOF at all. He's Foursquare, actually, and doesn't get into the WOF stuff. He is VERY WELL respected in charismatic and non-charismatic circles alike.
If you teach prosperity and healing, I would say those are earmarks of someone who is WOF, or at the very least, "WOF lite."
Lastly, you asked me to define a WOF preacher/teacher. I'd say it is someone who teaches tongues, prosperity, and healing, as normative and regular for the believer today, and who emphasizes a faith message in that regard. As "anony" said, Hagee believes WOF to some extent and extols Crouch and Oral Roberts, and other WOF'ers as well.
Getagrip, how do YOU define a WOF preacher/teacher, since obviously you have an idea as well? |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 594
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:10 pm: |
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Hi, get - Boy, you really know how to heat things up. That's good, tho. Gets us thinking, praying, reading the Word.
I think sometimes we get WOF/prosperity confused with charismatic. I don't believe they are necessarily all one package. I am spirit-filled, speak in tongues, etc. I believe miracles are for today, in healing etc. I DON'T believe that God will prosper me or do anything else for that matter simple because I "claim" it or speak it. If that were true, I wouldn't need God at all, but would wave my magic tongue and call everything to myself. I feel God wants to prosper us, but to further the spreading of the TRUE GOSPEL like outreaches, giving to the needy, and supporting and sending missionaries, not for personal gain or hoarding of expensive "toys" (houses, cars, jets, etc). |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2466
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:18 pm: |
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I DON"T believe that God will prosper me or do anything else for that matter simple because I "claim" it or speak it. If that were true, I wouldn't need God at all, but would wave my magic tongue and call everything to myself. (cybermom)
That was very well stated!!!!! Ministers get caught up into one message such as the "name and claim it bunch" and the serpent seeders thay lose focus of the simple truths of Christ's message. |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 596
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:33 pm: |
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Ministers lose focus because they begin to take Scripture verses out of context and develop whole doctrines around them. And the deception continues because those who listen to them aren't grounded in the Word themselves; they don't hold up everything they hear to the inerrant Word of God and let that be their standard. They let some human tell them what to believe instead of letting the Lord, through His Word and His Spirit, lead and guide them.
I know because I was once one of those deceived people who only got out because I dug into the Word myself to find out the Truth. Thank God I did. |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 219
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.88.226.250
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:35 pm: |
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I liked that too, Cybermom. Very good!
All the charismatic churches I have been to over the years have been WOF. The strictly Pentecostal churches haven't been, or the Assemblies of God the last I heard. I hope there are now some Charismatic ones that have gotten away from that. I know that a lot of charismatics finally caught on to the false promises - but then there are always new converts coming in to take their place. |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 220
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.88.226.250
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:40 pm: |
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I was fortunate that I knew enough of the Word, having been taught it as a child, that when I got into the charismatic churches red flags automatically went up. Thank God for that...or I might have been just as deceived as others have been. |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 597
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
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Thanks.
I attend an AG church; my pastor lives in a modest house, has a modest salary (which he readily discloses), drives a modest car. His passion is life is missions and spreading the Gospel. When he prays for the Lord to prosper us it is to have more $$ to use to spread the Gospel and support more missionaries, not so he can make more $. The books are open and ANYONE can go in and see how the $$ is being spent.
Out of the four churches I have attended only one was WOF. I wouldn't even call it spirit-filled, because it was as dry as dust, with little evidence that the Holy Spirit was in operation there at all. So my experience is the opposite of yours, but we still agree that the whole WOF stuff in more of an aberration rather than sound doctrine. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2467
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:49 pm: |
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Others anony such as my precious mother who died from cancer because of the name and claim it bunch( a small tumour that could of easily been removed but instead she chose to stand on faith and claim healing in JESUS name) she was not a fool, she just studied under these men from the beginning of her christian walk. Well they will stand before God and be held accountable!!
It is dangerous when young christians get pulled into this movement because they just don't have the Word yet grounded in their heart! |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 599
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 5:02 pm: |
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Amen!! I couldn't agree with you guys more!!
Rachel, how sad for you, and of course you mom, also. When people grab hold of a few verses and then get out of balance, they have no idea how tragic the results can be. I'm certain this has happened far more often than we know.
Recently a child in my former cult became ill with a brain tumor. I'm not sure what medical treatment she received, but I DO know that NO ONE was allowed to pray for her. She eventually died. So here we have another aberration, a different focus, but the same result. She may have died anyway, but prayer certainly wouldn't have harmed her and may have done much good if given a chance. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2469
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 5:52 pm: |
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I am just glad to be able to share her story so that others may learn from it. People perish for lack of knowledge, they may be spiritual but they still misguided! |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 222
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.88.226.250
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 7:40 pm: |
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rachel,
I got intercepted by a visitor but want to get back with you. I am so sorry to hear about your mom. That just makes me so sad. I have had a neighbor that is happening to I think - a big tumor on her face that just keeps getting bigger and she is involved in WOF. I didn't have the opportunity to ask if the 2 were related but I suspected they were. Her daughter refused any conversation with me about WOF.
I did get bit by the healing thing, too...went off my thyroid med and ended up in quite a state. Yet I witnessed a miraculous healing of a burned man. I can't figure it out. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 402
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 7:29 am: |
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Well, in my WOF CHURCH we have just had several awe-inspiring examples of healings... in one case recently, a little girl showed up in a walker and with an oxygen. The pastor laid hands on the little girl, the congregation got in agreement with his prayer for complete and total healing, we SPOKE the word, advised her parents to study scriptures on healing, she came to church the following Sunday with oxygen container but no walker, we did not pray again but simply encouraged the family to stay in faith, that victory was hers and to stay in the word, then the following Sunday she showed up... NO WALKER, NO OXYGEN - completely restored by God and BY THE WORD OF AND THE PRAYER OF FAITH!!
Krems why waste your time with WOF LITE when you can so easily access the ministries of Bro. Copeland, Keith Moore and Andrew Wommack all of whom are quite capable, full blown WOF ministers.
PS If your pastor teaches that God is "allowing" trials and testing to strengthen you, he is MOST definitely not WOF.
PPS I heard Hagee say it and then name Hagin one Sunday morning while clicking through the channels looking for Believers Voice of Victory... just about fell off my chair.
PPPS Joel Osteen? C'mon Krems, you gotta know better than that. His dad, yes. Joel? Evangelical preacher with a HUGE church. Great guy but ABSOLUTELY NOT WOF
Here's clue number one (in my opinion) as to knowing whether or not a preacher is WOF, they will call THEMSELVES Word of Faith.
1) Do John H, Joel O, Joyce M CALL THEMSELVES WOF?
2) Do Bro. Copeland and Ken H. Jr. CALL THEMSELVES WOF? |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 224
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.88.226.250
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 8:50 am: |
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Thought you said SEVERAL awe inspiritng healings LATELY. Why would you fail to mention the REST of those AWE-INSPIRING healings? |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 403
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
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Well, actually "miraculous" healings are fairly commonplace in the church and ministry that I work in. It's not that big of a deal, why go off the meds until healing has manifested itself in your body? Nothing wrong with medicine to alleviate pain while God's power is working inside you bringing healing and wholeness. People who go "off meds", or refuse to go to doctors or refuse to pray, etc. give the WOF camp a bad name. We never tell anyone to do any of the above. If the Holy Spirit tells you to stop taking meds, then that's YOUR decision - no WOF preacher (a real one, not the pretenders) would ever tell someone to not take medicine OR go to a doctor. Get the help you need. Study the Word, stand on the promises of God and by all means, alleviate pain until healing comes... You're silly anony, the fact that I didn't mention any other healings means that the one I did mention has no validity? (this little girl was healed in Chicago just last week)... I have seen the dead raised, people in comas come back to normal, functioning lives, watched with my VERY OWN EYES as my right leg "grew out" (it's actually the power of God adjusting the discs in your back during the healing process) to become the same length as my left leg, etc. I was there, I SAW these things in my kitchen and living room growing up, in my church, at meetings, etc. Do you honestly think that a couple of skeptics on Factnet would EVER deter me from what I have seen and from what I know from the Word of God? Nothing will ever seperate me from the truth of the Word, and until the mainstream, evangelical church starts preaching the fullness, the truth and the totality of what Christ did for us on the cross, I will immerse myself in Word of Faith teaching. People get so caught in "prosperity", 3Jn2 says that God's wants us well AND prospering in every area of our lives. That's what I want and that's what I want for my kids. Keep taking those meds, don't listen to any preacher that tells you otherwise and I'm TELLING YOU IF THEY SAY NOT TO TAKE MEDICINE THEY ARE WRONG, AND THEY ARE NOT WOF.
PS Only a person with a Pharisee-like heart would wonder why the burned guy was healed and be skeptical about a little girl's healing... think about it anony, what's the matter? Wrong day to heal? It's the same spirit of DOUBT. And that's why 70% of the healings/miracles in the gospels are accompanied by some reference to the person's FAITH (such great faith, o ye of little faith, etc.) |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 404
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:18 am: |
|
I am not going to argue about the word with you anony, or enter into "doubtful disputations" either... I have no doubts, and I know what I've seen, and what I've seen from the time I was a child in my father's ministry IS REAL...
So believe what you want and write you want, as for me and my house, we will swim in the pool today that God gave us, fellowship with my parents who are in town and in perfect health preaching the Word of Faith 6-7 times per week in DIVINE HEALTH in their mid-70's and with sound minds my wife and I will raise our children to serve GOd, walk in faith, and do greater works than these. I call you blessed and highly favored anony, may God richly bless you in every area of your life!!! |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2470
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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I think your delusional! These men have made horrible claims in the past, making those who do "get" that healing feel as though they were walking in sin and fear. I think getagrip doesn't want to see the danger his cult has provided over the years...
Prosperity?? Why would God care about material things?? What does a fleet of motorcycles and mansion have to do w/ christian faith-please... |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2471
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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anony, we can rest assured these men have the blood of the innocent on their hands!! Many have died and fallen into financially hard times because of the stupidity of these ministries-Copeland, Hagin,Price the elder Osteen, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson(remember how he would close his eyes like a fortune teller and feel someone in the TV audience getting healed. Tilton, Hinn on and on -Jokers all of them!
(Message edited by rachelengland on December 29, 2006) |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 226
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.88.226.250
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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This is hypercharismania at its best.
You helped destroy your own credibility by somehow forgetting to tell about those SEVERAL other AWE INSPIRING healings right after you mentioned them, getagrip.
The old timers always had the wildest, nuttiest stories of the utmost miraculous that they somehow could never produce evidence for.
I believe in healing. I've seen it myself. But I don't believe in putting people under false illusions about it. The hypercharismatics have always majored on doing this and have done much horrible harm by it. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2203
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.12
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:57 am: |
|
grip,
If the stories of the dead being raised and incredible miracles of healing were true, news of it could not be contained. News agencies would be all over it. You couldn't turn a corner without seeing or hearing something about it. You have to wonder why news of these sorts of things do not travel outside of a certain circle. The medical profession would be extremely interested. They were interested enough to run experiments to test the effectiveness of prayer. One such study was the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP). |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2474
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 2:18 pm: |
|
The old timers always had the wildest, nuttiest stories of the utmost miraculous that they somehow could never produce evidence for. (anony)
I believe in healing. I've seen it myself. But I don't believe in putting people under false illusions about it. The hypercharismatics have always majored on doing this and have done much horrible harm by it.(anony)
Goodness that is so true!! I remember listening to these stories over and over again as a teenager and I would always get a laugh at how the same stories would change from time to time and new more exciting details were added!
My mother, getagrip was one of the most healthy, spiritually sounded women you would of ever met. Unfortunately early into her salvation she got in w/ some people who followed the teachings of Copeland and Hagin and the rest of the Bible belt coherts she followed the rules of claiming healing and not wanting to confess she was ill, even as her once beautiful body was disguised with tumours and she had melted away into what looked like a holocost victim- all at the age of 49( a soliod christian for over 15 years)...this isn't a joke-this is a dangerous teaching! (hey may not tell you to throw out your meds(if your a weak faithed person but they encourage those who are strong in faith and walking right w/ God, confessing His truths -"by his stripes your healed" verses like, Mark 11:24 that they will get the healing.
I meant to say "do not" get the healing in my above post.
(Message edited by rachelengland on December 29, 2006) |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 406
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 2:49 pm: |
|
Hi Racheal;
I am very, very sorry to hear about your mother but I would be remiss if I did not say that if it were not for what my family has gleaned from the Word through Bro Hagin and Bro Copeland's teaching ministries, my mother would most assuredly be dead.
Very sorry to hear about your mom, must be tough around the holidays - it is very much so for our family.
We lost my brother when he was 18 in a tragic accident just after we were all born again and we (my family) vowed to never lose another one... We haven't and we won't.
Again, very sorry about your loss.
JAD |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 407
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 3:11 pm: |
|
PS Where can I sign up for the fleet of motorcycles and mansion ministry? |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2476
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 3:22 pm: |
|
Ask Barclay Oh I think in his case it's airplanes and a mansion in Midland Michigan. |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 416
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.39.65
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
|
About healing.... those who are mocking Copeland and healing ministries, calling this "a dangerous teaching", you might want to ask yourself if maybe you or your family did not get healed because someone close had a heart that was "testing" God, hoping that God would not heal through these ministers because then you would be proven correct. Jesus refused to do miracles because of the lack of faith of a city. So before you continue to tear down a minister, you might want to consider if you could be the reason that God is not healing every single person. These men you so dislike may not be the problem, it could be those like rachel england. You blame everyone but yourself. If your mother was sincere in her faith and relationship with Jesus Christ then dying isn't a tragedy. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are examples of "faith", they believed that God was able to rescue them, but even if He did not, it wouldn't matter because they were still not going to turn from Him. I know you think you have have done this because you haven't turned from God, but you still lack faith. You said you watched her for 15 years... in those 15 years you maintained your hardheart, never humbling yourself to tell Satan that no matter what he did to your mother, you would never give into him. Instead you gave into him and believed his lies and accepted his anger and bitterness against these ministers of God. This may sound harsh, but, it is no more harsh than your mockery that keeps the Holy Spirit from healing others. Paul was fortunate that Jesus chose him to open his eyes to the truth. Many might doubt that Paul was "fortunate" because he went through so much hardships in preaching the Gospel. Many of you think that you are like Paul, but none of you have gone through anything that he went through. None of you could have maintained faithfulness to God. You've proven this. In fact many of you could never be like him, for you want no one to have more than you. Paul was not like that... he did without to teach those like "you", those not in ministry how to work and not be a burden to the church... Isn't that what many of you think that Copeland and others are there for and fail to do is to pay your light bills? |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2481
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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Shut the hell up-you are a babbling fool and prove why this is a dangerous cult-blaming my mothers death on someone elses hardened heart???You are about as idiotic as they come and I am so grateful you posted that text so others can see the ways of this foolish ministry!
You say: "it is no more harsh than your mockery that keeps the Holy Spirit from healing others".
That is such a lie!! I was a young woman with great faith in God and respect for the Word of the Lord in which you pervert-you hateful snake my heart has NOTHING to do with others healing!
(Message edited by rachelengland on December 29, 2006) |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 600
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:33 pm: |
|
It's as I've said before, Rachel. Wave your magic tongue and...POOF, a miracle. Wave it again but in a different direction and...POOF, no miracle. I am so very happy that the God I serve isn't tied down to my tongue. He is sovereign and all-knowing, and fortunately for all of us, DOES NOT always deal with us as we deserve. I've tried the old "walk-on-eggshells-so-we-don't-confess-something-bad" routine, from singing to praying. As if God doesn't/wouldn't hear me if I didn't say it just right. It was exhausting and uscriptural.
CM |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 253
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.185.227.35
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
|
Getagrip:
Thanks for clarifying your position. I do listen to Copeland, Keith Moore, and Andrew Wommack (although not so much Wommack anymore, his show is on early). But I like the WOF lite people, too. The truth is, its all based in the Word of God.
To clarify, my pastor does not teach that God allows stuff to happen, per se. My pastor teaches that WE allow stuff to happen, and God does not override us.
I'd much rather give Pastor Hagee the benefit of the doubt, concerning what he said about Bro. Hagin. I need to read a transcript or hear the whole sermon to get the context of what he said.
As regards to people calling themselves WOF or not... I look more as to what is taught by these people. Both John Hagee and Joel Osteen teach prosperity, healing, and covenant the way more hardcore WOF preachers do. My own pastor does not identify our church as "WOF," but we all know it is, because of who he is influenced by (i.e. Copeland, Hagin, Wommack, Dickow, etc.)
But I do not believe that just because you are WOF means you are WOF, or just because you do NOT call yourself WOF you are NOT WOF. In other words, what you label yourself means nothings, and what you actually teach means everything.
Can I hear an AMEN, getagrip? |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 2210
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.21
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:54 pm: |
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hfl,
What a load of callus mind-control crap! If I were rachel, and you said something like that to my face, you would be trying to digest your teeth. |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 228
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.240.88.202
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 5:12 pm: |
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UN-believable. Now they're going flat delusional on us. My question is...why so defensive of their idol Copeland, if all these healings are taking place?? Why not just invite us to see them all? Wouldn't that resolve this 50 year controversy once and for all?
But all I keep hearing is more concocted reasons why people DON'T get healed. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 655
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 5:16 pm: |
|
Hope_faith_and love said:
"About healing.... those who are mocking Copeland and healing ministries, calling this "a dangerous teaching", you might want to ask yourself if maybe you or your family did not get healed because someone close had a heart that was "testing" God, hoping that God would not heal through these ministers because then you would be proven correct."
?????????????????????????????????????????
My healing is not based on someone elses faith!
God is in control, not us!
I have a pastor friend of mine who is losing his battle with cancer. He has prayed, had people pray, etc. His faith is very strong. In the end, it is in God's hands. God is still in control, and his word is true even if something happens that I can not explain. SO many people refuse good medical treatment because they believe that it is not showing faith. That is not good.
Is my faith in God, or conditional based on what I receive?
Physical healing is only one type of healing. I believe that God heals us spiritually and emotionally as well.
Look, if a person is led to believe that they do not need to take meds, have to "not claim it" etc, they are in a dangerous situation.
Let God be God. Let him decide the outcome. We need to stop having all the answers as to why someone has not been healed.
Conclusion: The fanatical WOF teaching on healing can be very destructive
Hope_, You have based your opinion on the dogma which you have been taught. Let God be God, and stop attempting to be his spokesperson as to why someone has not been healed; you have crossed the line and you are out of line as well for your comment to Rachel! |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4669
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 6:54 pm: |
|
hope_faith_and_love, a true man worshipper if there was ever was one found on the pages of factnet.
I agree with trained observer and Rachel. What a horrible thing to say. As usual you have no knowledge of the situation yet you insult and make accusations about someone's faith and why someone dies.
That is the cornerstone of the heresy that is word of faith. That if someone who is prayed for does not heal it is because they lacked faith or someone was not in total submission to God.... Always putting stipulations, guilt trips and conditions of dogma on God's healing powers. Total absolute brainwashing garbage!
Faith and prayer are important in all aspects of life but God gives us common sense also. God gives knowledge and skills to Doctors and heals through them also.
It is God's will that we all have perfect health and long lives, Christian or not. But many times we do not use the brains that God gives us to stay healthy as well as consult and follow the advise of Doctors when we should.
These so called "ministers of God" that you put on a pedestal so high is a crock! Are you God? How do you know what is in these people's hearts? They could be good ministers doing the best that they can or they could be outright fools, charlatans and heretics. So far as Kenneth Copeland is concerned I consider him to be a very dangerous heretic!
I have no respect for you hfl! You are on the wrong path. Always putting man between you and God. This is a forum to help reveal false doctrines, heresies and cults and you are always here defending these so called "ministers of God". I will defend Christ and my faith to my death. But I will not defend someone who only God knows their heart.
The only true "ministers of God" that I accept as fact are the Apostles mentioned in the Bible. Only God KNOWS who's what out of the rest.
What you posted is heresy and that garbage needs to be cleansed from the body of Christ. Take your man worshipping heresy and lack of knowledge of God's true word back to those kooky carman threads to fertilize an already high pile of idol worshipping manure!
You owe Rachel an apology for your very ignorant and hard hearted attack. And if you weren't so hopelessly putting your faith in man and extremely exuding your love for carman you would do such! |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 229
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.240.88.202
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 7:10 pm: |
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Exactly. The idolatry of these people is incredible. |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 601
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 7:15 pm: |
|
Rachel,
You are owed an apology, but don't hold your breath. I just read HFL's post on the carman thread. (Thanks for the head's up, Franklin!). This person is definitely a few fries short of a happy meal. The last time I heard the word "discern" more was when I attended my former cult - they attributed more than one piece of gossip, jealousy and slander to "discernment". I don't think any of them would know discernment if it came up and bit them on the butt.
Just appreciate the fact that most of the people here can disagree with you and still be Christlike and compassionate. Hold onto the truth and literally blow off the chaff.
CM |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 660
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 7:27 pm: |
|
cybermom,
It is funny that many WOF people use the word discerment.
Over the years I have become very conservative in my charasmatic beliefs. I am sickened by the spiritual acrobatics that many go through, and call it the "Holy Spirit" |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 814
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 7:28 pm: |
|
Don't put your faith in man but in Gods word.Psalm 138:2 "God puts His word even above His own name."
Too many people do not understand the subject of healing.
Don't throw God and the Bible out just because some of these people mess up.
We don't judge Jesus by people or circumstance.
We don't judge Gods word by some peoples failures, mistakes, and circumstances.
Gods word works according to the scriptures and is always yes and amen, and the power of God unto salvation for all (SOZO) making one whole in all areas.
The Bible tells all Christians to be proactive.
Gods will is that ALL be saved yet not all believe and receive. Healing is part of the new covenant salvation and the Great Commission yet not all are healed. WHY? Instead they choose to doubt and do without. We are told to "RESIST the devil and he will flee".
"Jesus healed ALL who came to him and who were oppressed of the devil" Acts 10:38
Don't do what too many people who put their faith in some pastor or preacher do after waking up and find out that some of these fools are charlatans. Don't throw out the Bible.
NOTE that EVEN "JESUS COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF"Matthew 13:58
Understand it is not a 'lack of faith' but rather a hindrance of "UNBELIEF".
UNBELIEF HINDERS MANY PEOPLE.
"It is impossible to please God WITHOUT FAITH" Hebrews 11:6
Doubt and unbelief in Gods word is sin.
Worry is a good example doubt and unbelief in Gods word.
Unbelief was the sin that caused the Israelites to not enter the promised land. Unbelief caused people not to receive healing from Jesus, hindered the disciples from healing and casting out devils.
Note:
This is not in defense of any person, but rather what the word specifically says and why so many misunderstand healing and it's many aspects.
We know that many people do not RECEIVE healing who pray, or have others agree and pray with them for healing. Jesus explained why in numerous places. Unbelief was the main explanation for hindrance to healing and all prayer.
There are incorrect ways to pray and correct ways to pray. Jesus teaching and througout the Bible makes these clear such as in Mark 11:23. Only prayer according to the Bible gets results. There is a better way to pray.
Note that EVEN "JESUS COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF"Matthew 13:58
It is not a lack of faith but rather a hindrance of UNBELIEF. Unbelief hindered the disciples also.
UNBELIEF HINDERS faith and prayer for MANY PEOPLE.
The "power of the Holy Spirit" obtained through Jesus as God does the healing not any human power. The faith of "prayer of agreement" such as when Jesus said "two or more agree on earth about anything they ask..." releases the power of God via His Holy Spirit.
Unbelief hinders this release. When unbelief is removed then faith can flow freely to bridge Gods power into action.
God never misses it.
People miss it.
People hinder God.
People LIMIT GOD by their own wrong thinking becomeing wrong believing and not making the pure connection.
It's been said "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while"
The same is true here.
Overcoming unbelief Jesus stated comes out through prayer and fasting. Not elevating the circumstance above Gods word.
Gods word is true and powerful and above every circumstance.
Romans 8 states every Christian has the "SAME POWER THAT RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD INSIDE OF THEM." This is the power that Peter had in him, Paul had in him, and you have in your born again spirit. |
bachman
Member
Username: bachman
Post Number: 68
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 162.84.148.89
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 7:49 pm: |
|
Interesting thing about "faith" and healing and unbelief. (I have to credit Wommack for this.)
Jesus said if we had faith as a mustard seed -- in other words, VERY, VERY SMALL, not huge and gigantic -- we could ask and receive.
He (Jesus...and Andrew! LOL) go on to talk about the people who say, "Help my unbelief."
In other words, we ALL have the SAME measure of faith -- and no matter how small, it's enought. But the unbelief is what we need help with, help to get it reduced to nothing.
So it's not so much encouraging one another here (we are encouraging, right?) to "have faith" but to pray again our unbelef, the leven that levens the whole dough. And we do that by the Word of Go -- "faith comes by hearing, etc."
So those that are struggling to pray in faith, etc I hope that helps -- it really did help me, like a light bulb went on. UNBELIEF is the problem, NOT faith.
Peace in Him -- and Happy New Year!
Bachman |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 408
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 8:07 pm: |
|
In the immortal words of Napolean's brother, Kip... "Peath Out!" |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 417
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.39.65
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
|
cybermom,
Did Christ teach us to disagree? Is this what it means to be a "Christian"?
Faith is a gift to us from God for salvation. When we refuse to believe God and His word and believe the devil who causes you to doubt what you've heard-- it's the devil you are listening to when you are banking that people won't get healed. I am not the one focused on man, you are cybermom, so is franklin, and trsinheaven. It's easy to sow seeds of doubt against a man who is speaking the Word of God who is heavy set or even someone who is attractive, I've discovered that no matter what a minister looks like people who harken to Satan's voice will be offended by the way they look. Satan always has a way to make you deny that mustard seed of faith, one way is by making you focus on a man-- either the pastor or the person sitting next to you. It is one thing if you want to harden your own heart against this gift of faith, but how much more will you be judged by God when you cause others to disbelieve or teach others to disbelieve. The Gospel is made known by men and women-- either the apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors or teachers or Christians just living out their lives as believers... At any point Satan can single anyone of us out and harden someone's heart against Christ. Its time you stop helping Satan by focusing on man. |
preachers_daughter
Intermediate Member
Username: preachers_daughter
Post Number: 325
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 76.181.167.97
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:34 pm: |
|
hfl
What you said to Rachel was completely uncalled for. You need to apologize and you need to do it now.
It is people like you, who twist the Bible, and then try to use it in a way that is not of God. Where do you get off, thinking you can say such things?
I have never said this, on fn, and felt that I never would, but I have changed my mind.
You are a flipping idiot, and Christ is not in you!! You live only for yourself and to hell with others. Your love for Carman is sick and so are you. If you are what Christianity is, than I would want nothing to do with it. Thank God, Christianity is nothing like what you proclaim to be. You, my friend (and I say that with as much sarcasm as I possibly can) are far from it!!!! You are a jack*ss! |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4671
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
|
hfl, You've got that totally WRONG Sista! I believe God heals But God heals also through Doctors. The two work together to keep humans healthy. This talk about satan causing doubt in people's mind blah, blah, blah... being the reason people don't get healed or die is a lame excuse for FAKE healers. Predators on the flock of Christ.
We, who you mentioned, are God focused. You are the one focused on man. Trying to elevate yourself with your inferences of prophets. You are a Prophetess of NOTHING! There are NO apostles or prophets except those mentioned in the Bible. So too bad for you. We will NOT recognize you for your so called anointed gifts from God. You want us to recognize you and others as being closer to God than everybody else. Well it ain't going to happen Sista! It is long past the time that Christians DIMINISH human usurpers and elevate God and Christ to their respected thrones.
It is your way of thinking that created the need for factnet. A way for Christians to find the true meaning of God's word and Sista you ain't speaking it!
satan does exactly what you do. Elevates man so that Christians can not see or hear God. Perverts God's word through some poofy haired preacher man or some puffed up pseudo prophetess like you to lead us astray.
Yes we will come against the "anointed" cause we have "discerned" that they ain't anointed.
Do they have a Certificate signed by God that says they are "anointed by God"? Do you? Let's see it!
Like bear said, "Let God be God". The rest of you egotists and megalomaniacs need to go to the back of the church, last row of the pews and listen to God's true word cause YOU have got a lot to learn. Christianity is not about idolizing humans. It is about worshipping God only! |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 602
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 1:06 am: |
|
In case HFL plays the "dont' touch God's anointed" card:
2 Cor 1:21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Those of us who are believers are ALL anointed, not just a chosen few.
I am really having a hard time following your posts, hfl. Where did you get the idea that I'm focusing on any man above God? Actually, if you read any of my previous posts I try to warn people against that very thing; I admire and love my pastor, but if he ever preaches anything contrary to the Word of God, I'm out of there. So either you have me confused with someone else or you've spent so much time wallowing at the Carman thread that your mind is fried. Why don't you take the weekend off, settle yourself down, pray, and compose a nice apology for Rachel.
And Franklin, AMEN, BRO.
trs, I know this is probably not the place for this so please cut me a little slack here, but did you catch my apology to you on another thread? Just curious. |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 420
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.39.65
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 1:26 am: |
|
preachers daughter,
RachelEngland is another person setting up a precedence to forbid ministries from teaching miracles, as well as our freedom to give. This is very serious. And as a true Christian who walks by "faith" you should understand that "faith" is the part that is to be stopped. Wake up and see the danger in what these people are teaching. They want to stop the teaching of the supernatural power of God. No I will not apologize to her. As a Christian I do not serve death but life. As a Christian I believe that my loved ones are alive in Christ, whether they are still present here on earth or if they have gone on to be with Christ in heaven!
Regardless of what any of you believe this isn't just "interesting conversation"-- what some of you teach is all that is needed for Christians to be persecuted. But, none of you fear this, because you are helping those who seek to limit, remove and/or control the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You can call me an idot, but I see what I see happening in America and I know the ministries that these people want to stop such as John Hagee's are the ones preaching boldly.
Simply put, as franklin said let God be God. Stop your arguing! If any of you choose not to believe in healing then you don't have to, but if you know of someone who is seeking healing from God, then do not hinder it by your choice to not believe-- but even this takes faith that none of you possess. The healing ministries I am familiar with do not teach against seeking medical treatment. It is my understanding that God's Will and intervention is asked for doctors and all medical procedures.... and if medical treatment does not work, then faith alone can be the main focus and God can receive all the glory.
By all means allow God to be God! Franklin, RachelEngland and trsinheaven are the egotists and the meglomaniacs who won't! |
anony
Intermediate Member
Username: anony
Post Number: 231
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.240.88.202
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 8:09 am: |
|
HFL...
Rachelengland has set up nothing. Where is your brain?
Don't worry...the 'miracle-working' Christians who have exchanged the kingdom of God for the things of this world are not going to have a problem with antichrist. |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4672
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 8:16 am: |
|
Nope, you got it wrong again hfl. Rachel and I both like John Hagee. He is a good speaker and a humble man. She did not mention his name. He might be wrong in some of his end times thoughts but he is not who Rachel was speaking against. The title of the thread is John Hagee and the "doom and gloom" peddlers which includes quite a few. Then Copeland, Hagin and others were mentioned. Quite a mixed bunch there.
That is who Rachel was referring to. Those who leave the impression to ailing Christians that they should be healed by faith alone and not seek medical treatment. That getting medical attention is showing doubt and shows lack of faith. And if they are not healed by God then it is because they do not have enough faith or that someone close to them does not blah, blah, blah....... That is what Rachel is talking about and if you would actually read her posts you would know that. But it doesn't matter whether you did or not because you evidently believe the same garbage. And that garbage is dangerous to the body of Christ and to the health and safety to all Christians.
I try to be very careful as to who I criticize here on factnet or other forums. I mention who I like so far as preachers, who seem to be teaching the word of God. And who are trying to lead people astray with heresy and clever ploys of their seeking adoration from their congregations. There are many out there of both kinds. Fortunately most are of the former group that do not get much attention. I agree that lumping all Christian ministers in one bread basket and condemning them all is dangerous.
Rachel and I and many others do not do this. We do not speak against all healing ministries. Just the fakes, charlatans and heretics. And they are easy to spot if the Holy Spirit works in you you would have those powers of discernment also. But to just circle the wagons and condemn anyone who raises a question or criticizes a minister who blatantly perverts the word of God and is obviously is in it just for PROFIT is dangerous to the body of Christ. The Christian Church as a whole needs to cleansed repeatedly and thoroughly. Your way of thinking would allow the continuation of Catholic priest pedophilia, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch hangings and the continual corruption and abuse of the fake faith healers.
Rachel is a good servant of God who speaks a lot of good about Christianity and daily defends the Gospel of Christ against those who attack us as a group. It is you who blindly defends any and all who call themselves Christian because of your deluded man worshipping ways that is a danger to the body of Christ.
(continued) |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4673
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 8:16 am: |
|
There are many souls out there who want to come closer to God and Churches and ministers are an excellent way to do that for starters. But from what many of them see on tv and other medias Christianity is not appealing. There is obvious corruption going on. Corrupting of the word of God and corruption in practices of some of these so called ministries. It leaves the wrong impression and a bad taste in the mouth of the world when the topic of Christianity as a whole is brought up.
This corruption has and always be there. The apostles of Christ saw it and spoke against it. And we who are followers of Christ will continue to do so whether it meets with your approval or not!
And then you have the God hating atheists who enjoy doing nothing but lumping us all together based on what just a few bad apples are doing. Yes, atheism is in the soul winning contest also. They woo souls away from God by pointing their crooked fingers and wagging their lying tongues about what a sham all of Christianity is. I will agree with them about certain ministries but be the first to point out that their examples are just a very small group with the main body of Christ. That the majority of the good that is in the Christian church greatly offsets the bad.
The preachers who get attention here on factnet are mostly in the bad category. And if anyone steps up to the pulpit and preaches the Gospel of Christ it better be the true Gospel of Christ and not another gospel or heresy. If it is I will be the first to bring it to their and everyone else's attention. We can not afford to let an infection, a corruption of the word of God fester for a second. These false prophets and charlatans will be corrected by God AND by the Christian community as a whole. That is how it will be done. That is how God's will will be done. Every Christian doing their duty to God to make sure that His word is not corrupted.
It is the only way we will win this spiritual war, this battle with Satan and help bring more souls to God. God wants all souls to be saved and to be with Him in heaven. But he knows that many will not be. And God knows why. It is those outside of the Church AND inside who will prevent God's will. It is your approach of circle the wagons and chastising anyone who objects to the corruption of God's word that is going to have the effect of people not coming to God. Just like the Catholic Church by mollycoddling the Catholic priest pedophiles tarnished their reputation, the same is happening to the rest of Christianity.
Your defense of any and all preachers, the good, the bad and the ugly is not doing God's will and is only affirming what the atheists and other theists are saying about Christians. Christ is with us now in spirit but not in the flesh. We are all God's instruments to cleanse the Temple, the body of Christ and it will be done. And if you hfl or anyone else misguided like you wants to stand in our way be defending the bad and the ugly then you will just be pushed aside and ignored like you should be.
We've had this discussion before on the carman threads and your holier than thou, high and mighty attitude and reaction to anyone who dared criticize your precious, sacred carman was to condemn and deliver witchcraft curses on them.
You should apologize to Rachel and do it now because you were way out of line and were a complete idiot for saying what you said. But as usual your exhibited egotism and megalomania would not permit it. Something else the Holy Spirit needs to heal within you. A rottenness that needs to be removed, cleansed and healed. Wake up and start doing God's, not man's, will! |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 424
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.39.65
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
|
rachelengland wrote-- "Goodness that is so true!! I remember listening to these stories over and over again as a teenager and I would always get a laugh at how the same stories would change from time to time and new more exciting details were added!" Much like trsinheaven and the rolex watches.
Franklin, because I do not listen to you, a man, you say my "egotism and megalomania" will not "permit it." You write, "These false prophets and charlatans will be corrected by God AND by the Christian community as a whole." Sounds like you are removing God's ways of dealing with His people and going straight for the persecution. You believe there are no prophets, only false ones, you rally your troops to this singular belief. God had me to write that when men of your breed start accusing someone who serves Him as being an "idol" it is for the purpose to kill. You are revealing a lot about the role you will play. You deny the power of God to work in apostles and prophets, and now have lifted yourself up next to God to help Him to "correct"? Did you use the word "purge"? Maybe you softened the word to "cleanse". Christians need to pay attention to you, because you and the "secular" world are in agreement and work together against Christians. What you plan can only succeed if God allows it. But, He will hold your kind back until the appointed time. Then what little sight you have will be removed so that His Word will be fulfilled.
I never put witchcraft curses on anyone... that's the side who agrees with you who accuses me of idolatry. You use both to accuse me with; and no matter how much I say I am innocent, you still argue that I am guilty, all because I am doing the will of God. I cannot back down to save myself because I know that what I believe God has taught me, no man did. You told me to wake up and start doing God's will and not man's... But, I am doing God's will, as He has always carried out His will...but you deny that God works this way. It is your will that is the will of man, as it has always been.... It will be God and His angels who separate the evil from the good. You are deceived in believing that you are worthy to do this. |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4674
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 1:20 pm: |
|
THERE ARE NO APOSTLES AND PROPHETS IN THESE TIMES. PERIOD!
Only those mentioned in the bible. The bible is the verified word of God. Who you say or someone else says is not. You are not a prophetess or an Apostle and you do not know of any. The prophets of old were just to foretell the coming of Christ. Now that Christ has come we do not need prophets.
Christ left behind the Holy Spirit. With the Holy Spirit Christians do not need anyone to interpret the word of God to us. Ministers are fine, but they have a role that is subsidiary to that of the Holy Spirit which is all that Christians should ultimately allow to guide us. You do not know God's will hfl. Man's heresy is talking to you, not God. Yes listen to me because I am trying to remove the humans you put on a pedestal between us and God.
Oh so it's ok for us to listen to and obey these socalled apostles and prophets and yet WE, the followers of Christ, are not allowed to correct or cleanse the temple??????
What make these so called anointed ones closer to God then an average believing Christian? God works through ALL who believe in him. Not just some puffed up poofy haired apostles and fake faith healers. God works through children too. Do not limit God to only be able to work through these self appointed "elect" that you idolize and want to elevate yourself to.
Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. No one is better or closer to God than anyone else. All have the ability, discernment and right as Christians to criticize and highlight anyone who is usurping the role of the Holy Ghost in this world. Your beliefs are false and that will be revealed to you. And yes you do use witchcraft against those you come against your so called anointed. You think of yourself as a prophet but you are no more than a WITCH! |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 667
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 8:13 pm: |
|
HFL said:
"They want to stop the teaching of the supernatural power of God. No I will not apologize to her. As a Christian I do not serve death but life."
1. Untrue! They are speaking againt the perverted faith message. We all must live by faith, for it is the thing that moves God's power in our life.
2. What you said to Rachel was mean, and it is not even biblical! Show me one verse that supports this!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HFL also said:
"But, none of you fear this, because you are helping those who seek to limit, remove and/or control the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
The Gospel is NOT just about healing; it is so much more. I want the entire Gospel spread, not the perverted Gospel.
HFL said:
If any of you choose not to believe in healing then you don't have to, but if you know of someone who is seeking healing from God, then do not hinder it by your choice to not believe-- but even this takes faith that none of you possess.
1. None of us posseses this faith? Now that is arrogant!
2. My faith is not the primary factor in another persons problem, and it does not legitamately hinder that faith.
Here is an example:
All of us must be strong to not let negative comments by those we love hinder us. However, if someone is believing God for something, and I am negative all the time that I am with them, and as a result, they doubt, THE PROBLEM IS NOT MINE! It is theirs. I can agree with someone in prayer; believing for the same result, but my doubt should not hinder them from receiving.
- Your thesis is not even biblical. |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 816
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
|
Bear
The Bible is clear that people are suseptible to other peoples spiritual attitudes and hindered by them.
Jesus even turned out the naysayers when he prayed to heal and raise some from the dead. Their unbelief and doubt had an effect.
He told others not to return to their same crowd since it would effect them maintaining their healing.
"It is impossible to please God WITHOUT FAITH" Hebrews 11:6
Doubt and unbelief in Gods word is sin.
Worry is a good example doubt and unbelief in Gods word.
Unbelief was the sin that caused the Israelites to not enter the promised land.
Unbelief caused people not to receive healing from Jesus.
Unbelief hindered the disciples from healing and casting out devils.
The Bible says your DOUBT will hinder you and others in receiving. Doubt is a spiritual attitude against Gods word, and that is sin.
To believe in the circumstance above what GOD SAYS the word says is the same example that so many Old and New Testament people had. ONE SUCH HERO OF FAITH such as Abraham who DID NOT CONSIDER HIS OLD BODY NOR SARAHS NON REPRODUCTIVE CAPABILITY AT 100 YEARS AND INSTEAD BELIEVED GODS WORD.
If it hindered Jesus WHO ARE YOU? Better than He?
If it hindered His disciples it will hinder you.
Jesus says NOT TO DOUBT in so many places AND NOT TO FEAR. FEAR IS FAITH IN THE NEGATIVE.}
The Bible says "the PRAYER OF FAITH will save the sick" Faith is believing you receive WHEN YOU PRAY - Mark 11:22-24
I AM NOT AGAINST DOCTORS BUT...
DOCTORS ARE HUMAN BEINGS WITH LIMITED SKILLS.
TRAUMA EMERGENCY SITUATIONS THEY ARE USEFUL.
PREVENTION OF DISEASE THE AMA IS MOSTLY USELESS.
PREVENTATIVE CARE AGAIN USELESS.
MAKING A LOT OF MONEY? ....
THE US RUNS BETWEEN 17TH AND 54TH IN THE WORLD OF MORTALITY RATES FROM DIFFERENT DISEASES LIKE HEART, CANCER AND DIABETES AND DEATHS AT DIFFERENT AGES.
MOST ALL THE DISEASE CAN BE TRACED BACK TO OUR AIR, WATER, FOOD AND TERRIBLE CHEMICAL CONTAMINATED FOOD SOURCES, LACK OF EXERCISE AND OVERSTRESSED, OVERWORKED LIFESTYLES.
Does the Bible say to go to Doctors FIRST when you are sick?
Did the woman at the issue of blood go 12 years to the doctors and spent all she had and was worse off?
Shouldn't you AT LEAST DO WHAT MATTHEW 6 commands and elsewhere. Seek God First in all situations and what he says.
There are a number of good books |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 677
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 11:49 pm: |
|
Trs:
"The Bible says your DOUBT will hinder you and others in receiving. Doubt is a spiritual attitude against Gods word, and that is sin."
I agree with you. My point was that it is truly up to an individual to hold fast to their faith.
If I agree with someone in prayer, then that request becomes mine. I am giving fuel to the fire, if you will.
However, if someone disagree's with me, or if they are negative, it is up to me to hold on to my faith in order to receive from God |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4703
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:02 pm: |
|
We are some of the sickest people in the world because we are the wealthiest. People in poor nations eat closer to the ground so to speak, more natural, organic foods and are not exposed to the many food choices that we are tainted by man. Food loaded with preservatives, unnaturally produced sweeteners, oils, chemicals that create an addictive eating frenzy.
A nation gone sui"cide". Foodstuffs grown on corporate farms by using every unnatural "cide" imaginable. Insecticides, herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers all loaded with carcinogenic causing chemicals. Livestock pumped up with growth hormones, given weird combinations of chemicals and ground up by products of their own species to eat. Ever hear of mad cow disease? That is what is happening in our food industry that has a direct effect on our health.
So many new ailments, diseases out there that doctors and scientists can not even keep up with cures or know how to diagnose and treat them. Wasn't this way say 50 years ago.
It's not that doctors and pharmacists don't want to cure their patients Most do. It is because basically they don't know how to do so with so many man induced, self inflicted diseases we have allowed to be created.
It's a new tragedy effecting all of us because we have allowed the corporate food producers to tamper with the natural process our food is grown. And they do it for guess what reason...... you guessed it... increased profits.
So there is a dilemma in our health system for sure. But for it's source all we have to do is look in the mirror. We allowed it to happen. We bought into the thinking we don't need to exercise just eat what we want and eat some of that unnaturally produced, disease causing "diet" foods. If it says diet, buy it and consume it. We love those cheap packages of this and that that is "artificially flavored" and a long list of ingredients that no one could pronounce much less know what they are. Unless you have multiple degrees in chemistry.
We need to get back to more of a "balance" in how we eat, drink, work, exercise, love and pray. Yes prayer has gone out of whack too! This "name it and claim it" heresy is causing all kinds of tragedies and deaths in the body of Christ! |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4704
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:03 pm: |
|
If we create a demand by our spending and consuming habits for more natural, grown closer to the ground" foods then we can get our food industry back where it should be as well as our health.
Having said that here is what the Holy Spirit tells me which is common sense on how to be a balanced Christian. Eat more naturally like our ancestors did. Consume foods that have not been tainted by corporate greed motivated growers. Work hard and exercise like our ancestors did. Keep love in our hearts for everybody. Pray for your health as well as the health of your family and friends.
If sick, a sick person should go to a doctor first. Determine what is the problem, direct the doctor in a possible remedy. Doctors work for us you know. We "hire" them They are not Gods. Just because they have degrees and years of training that we do not have does not mean that we should just shut our brains down entering a doctor's office and do exactly what they tell you. Some people can be too smart to do themselves or their patients any good.
Doubt them if your common sense and the Holy Spirit tells you to. If not satisfied with their opinion seek a second opinion. Or third. Look for natural cures. Do not be a guinea pig for every new pill the pharmaceutical companies are pushing where the side effects are worse that the original malady. Continue to pray everyday.
But trsinheaven the way you word what you write leads me to believe you believe in faith only healing and are diminishing or forbidding the healing skills inspired by God of doctors. And that is very dangerous and deadly. There has to be a balance of both. Like I told hfl when you get to deep into this doubt, unbelief and doubts and unbelief of those around them being the cause of a sick person not recovering it leads to cultic thinking, false doctrines and lame excuses for FAKE faith healers.
I have seen God heal through prayer. Individual prayer and community prayer. I believe in it. But it was tied in with professional medical treatment. There was a balance to it. You not only pray for God's perfect healing but also for God to provide the doctors knowledge, wisdom, skills and compassion to assist in the healing. And for the Holy Spirit to work through those doctors whether they are Christian or not.
Christians need to be balanced in all matters of living our lives. Not too much one way or the other. Not relying on doctors too heavily and not enough faith in the Lord. And not too much faith in man (faith healers) to heal them and too little consulting with doctors. Balance! Spiritual and physical. Balance!  |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 817
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 1:05 pm: |
|
franklin, bear
"As a person thinketh in His heart so is he" Proverbs 23
I am the Lord that healeth thee...
Get the Genesis Diet by Gordon S. Tessler or Dr Colberts book The Seven Pillars of Health.
According to the Bible, God is where Christians should go first as their source of everything.
God is still in the healing ministry today and the Holy Spirits power can heal any disease and impart wisdom for health to anyone who will seek, believe, ask and receive.
Seek ye first ...Mt 6:33
That includes for ALL our needs operating in Gods system not the worlds distorted way. Gods way for relationship, social, marriage, physical health, finances and in every area of our life.
Jesus is the great physician.
The AMA is backwards in its methods. They are unsuccessful for years in the biggest killers including their lack of curing cancer, heart disease and diabetes. These are all rampant and on the increase along with so many other diseases. The AMA has been distorted in their practices for years and they HIDE THEIR HUGE FAILURES.
God has a better way which includes health and prevention of disease.
The work of French biologist Antoine Bechamp (1816-1908) demonstrated that disease causes germs; Bechamp's contemporary (and former student) Louis Pasteur announced that his studies proved that germs cause disease. One man has been forgotten by history; the other is considered the father of modern medicine.
If germs are outside attackers invading the body, then we can develop and market an endless array of weapons with which to kill them. But, if disease, or imbalance in the body, causes germs, then we must simply restore balance to remove the conditions upon which germs thrive.
Pasteur's germ theory of disease gave birth to the pharmaceutical age. Had modern medicine adopted Bechamp's disease theory of germs and the subsequent work of doctors Brewer, Warburg and Pauling, it would be common knowledge that the symptoms of disease are prevented or reversed by nutrition at the cellular level.
Pasteur conspired for money and later recanted his work on his deathbed. The AMA continues his conspiracy both knowingly and unknowingly going down the wrong path which never works.
Suppression of cures
There have been several cures for cancer and other diseases but these have been viciously suppressed by the establishment and pharmaceutical industry.... Bechamp's work was negated and almost lost through Pasteur's proponents. |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4705
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 1:29 pm: |
|
But if we do not go to doctors at all because of your broad brushing exaggerated suspicions and innuendos then many people, many will die including children and unborn babies in the womb. Is that God's will?
NO!
I believe we are all responsible for what we speak and write. And your way of thinking which is not based on scripture can lead to many unnecessary deaths and suffering by their surviving loved ones.
BALANCE, trs! Balance!
So in other words someone who is shot or in a car accident or somehow injured in an life threatening way should not go to a hospital and receive emergency care? If you had a finger cut off would you not go to a hospital and have a doctor sew it back on and then pray for it's perfect healing?
When soldiers in Iraq are shot or blown up should we just pray over them or should they receive medical treatment?
Put some balance in your words. You are too far the wrong way.
God also uses humans to help heal. Recognize that fact and quit threatening the body of Christ with your imbalanced, intolerant statements. |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 818
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 3:47 pm: |
|
franklin,
Do you even read what I post before you shoot your mouth off.
I wrote this above in the BEGINNING....
"I AM NOT AGAINST DOCTORS BUT...
DOCTORS ARE HUMAN BEINGS WITH LIMITED SKILLS.
IN TRAUMA EMERGENCY SITUATIONS THEY ARE USEFUL.
PREVENTION OF DISEASE THE AMA IS MOSTLY USELESS.
PREVENTATIVE CARE AGAIN USELESS.
MAKING A LOT OF MONEY? ....
AGAIN I did not say that Doctors should not be used at all. I did say in emergency situations.
Also in situations where you cannot get healed on your faith. But BE INFORMED. Doctors do not come from wisdom in their schooling. They are pharmacologists pushing unnecessary dangerous drugs and unnecessary procedures and surgeries that just rack up their bills.
More people died in the US last year from errors and side effects of doctor precsribed drugs than automobile deaths. WHY?
Google and read about Antoine Beauchamp and the errors made by his chemist student Louis Pasteur which is what the American Medical Association ignorantly still follows.
NOTE. Germs do not cause disease just like rats do not cause garbage.
You SAY Balance?  There is no such thing.
That is a poor way of limited thinking.
A little bit of truth and a little bit of error is not BALANCE.
Only truth and Godly direction from the Holy Spirit. God is not schizophrenic, of double minded. Doctors and the so called medical establishment are responsible for more deaths than disease itself. The drugs, errors, wrong diagnosis, unnecessary surgeries, and unsanitary disease filled hospitals kill more people than these quacks cure.
Cancer, heart disease, diabetes and more have EXPONENTIALLY increased in the last fifty five years, and they continue to increase. Over prescribed antibiotics have created diseases that are immune to the latest antibiotics. The list continues.
The hippocratic oath doctors take is a lie...
"Physician do no harm?"
God help these wrongly worshipped Godlike doctors should ever get knocked off their pedestals. They need to give back all the money that people and insurance companies pay them for not curing anyone. Malpractice and its insurance is at an all time high. Why? They practice the wrong methods. They look to the corporate drug companies for the next magic pill.
While every drug has more listed side effects including death as part their warnings.
These fools take no courses in nutrition, prevention, othomolecular medicine etc. Other countries don't have the diseases we have here.
Look it up. Read for yourself. I could fill up a thousand threads with all the terrible games played on people like guinea pigs by doctors promising cures. Radiation and chemotherapy is no better than blood letting.
The cure is worse than the disease. They wouldn't use these on a well person, what makes you think it should be given to sick immune compromised people?
Wake up and read what doctors are doing to people. They are a protected ELITE trying to act like God but without the success.
The statistics speak for themselves. But the media is blind to it, and rarely investigates or reports on the huge failure.
Physician heal thyself.
A great change is overdue.
(Message edited by trsrinheaven on January 01, 2007) |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4709
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 5:57 pm: |
|
I read what you say and there is a lot of truth in it. But each time you make these statements you need to include
""I AM NOT AGAINST DOCTORS BUT...
DOCTORS ARE HUMAN BEINGS WITH LIMITED SKILLS.
IN TRAUMA EMERGENCY SITUATIONS THEY ARE USEFUL."
which you did not do in the post I responded to. That is balance. Having balance is retaining and sharing truth from all sources. Spiritual and physical. Not errors at all!
By not keeping your post balanced with proper disclaimers and clarifications it appears you are for faith healing only and that is DANGEROUS AND NOT CHRISTIAN!
You were twisting what I was writing about when you wrote that balance to me includes errors.
Doctors and pharmacists are retailers just like any other business person and are subject to the laws of economics. Consumer pressure. There is where the changes that are needed will come from.
Where this thread was before, was when hfl accused someone of causing their mother's death because they had doubt. That is heresy and a dangerous infection in the body of Christ that should be removed. You seem to defend this heresy. That is the question on the table now. |
smyrna
Senior Member
Username: smyrna
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 148.70.237.171
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 6:11 pm: |
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Hey folks, don't listen to this Franklin character.
He's really an invention of Cultbusters.com.au
Several people there take turns playing Franklin, and they deliberately antagonize several different Factnet forums.
You don't have to believe me. Anyone wh reads through the Frankin posts can see the different personalities.
They are realy strange over at Cultbusters.com.au
Go there and check out 'The Sky Is Falling' threads as well as "Star Date One"
Then you will see how very strange these people are. |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4710
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 8:09 pm: |
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I was here on factnet years before there was a http://www.cultbusters.com.au/index.php?topic=145.msg8106;topicseen#new
People here know me and my consistency. They may not agree with me but they know I am one person. As I am on cultbusters. But thanks for plugging my cultbuster threads.
You are the strange one smearnoff. Believing that Adam and Eve were created on the eight day after the sabbath instead of the sixth day like the bible says. And that blacks and orientals were created on the sixth day as workers of the fields, some kind of servant races. That Adam and Eve had sex with satan. Cain is the son of satan and the devil's offspring are the modern day Jews. That not all life was destroyed during the great flood except for Noah and his family despite what the bible actually says. Just countless twisting and perversions of the bible you and your fellow SC "students" are brainwashed into believing.
None of what you believe is scriptural and is nothing but racist heresy and anti semitic blasphemy.
You guys are at the right place. Factnet is about cult discussion. And Shepherd's Chapel is a CULT!
Adam and Eve had sex with satan. How strange dude!  |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 609
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 8:27 pm: |
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Gee, smyrna, I don't remember you participating in our discussions here before - you are usually on AM threads. Why the sudden interest? Do you have an opinion about John Haggee also? If not, please stay on topic or take it elsewhere. I don't think the topic of this thread is "franklin". BTW, thanks for the advert. for cultbusters - they are doing a great job over there, and don't tolerate much of the disrespect and unkindness that goes on here.
Franklin and trs - perhaps you should start a new thread, not because this isn't a valid topic for discussion, but it really isn't about the topic at hand, John Hagee and other "end times" preachers. I can't challenge smyrna to stay on topic and not encourage you to do so, too. That would be pretty hypocritical. |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4711
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 8:40 pm: |
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I agree cybermom it got off topic. hfl just created a firestorm with her insensitive remark and I was helping to put it out. Thanks. |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 612
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 8:57 pm: |
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No problem. BTW, Happy New Year all! |
smyrna
Senior Member
Username: smyrna
Post Number: 1305
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 148.70.237.173
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 6:33 am: |
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This Franklin fictional character is lying. My participation at the SC boards is not relevant. What is strange is that adults who claim to be intelligent hang on to Medieval myths like a talking snake and a boat that can hold more animals than the San Diego zoo that was built by one man in ancient times.
This Franklin character is the issue. Hagee may be the focus here, but there is no greater disruption to a discussion than a bunch of people acting under one name, deliberately antagonizing those who wish to hold a discussion.
It is obvious this is the only consistency evident in this Franklin composite. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2483
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 9:20 am: |
|
"Bear
The Bible is clear that people are suseptible to other peoples spiritual attitudes and hindered by them". TRS
Let me just say this again-I was not responsible for my mothers death! At that time both my father and I stood by her decision and never ever critized her! In fact many times I am angered that we did not insist she seek medical interevention but we must respect others decisions(I was overseas for the most of her illness).
Copeland and his mates are responsible for pushing this name it and claim it heresy because it was popular at the time and gave them a lot cash in their pockets and that my friends is the reason they preach- not because they love Christ but because prosperity is so important to them(listen to some of the older Copeland music cds)- that they forget they are responsible for others.
I remember in the last few days of her life a few elders from our home church coming into the home-she had done everything according to the "word" and yet she was not being healed- Well they thought, she must have some unbelief,somewhere, she must of had some teeny tiny little sin hiding out there-they were confusing her- luckily my brother in law happened to be there and gave them a good boot out of the house.
My hope is that people will look into ministries deeply before ever considering them especially if they are "new" in their faith. R
(Message edited by rachelengland on January 02, 2007) |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 412
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 11:30 am: |
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The statement was made that there are no Apostles and Prophets in the modern church era.
Just so that I understand, what is your (hopefully, Biblical) definition of the "role" or the "office" of an Apostle? Anyone? |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 413
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 11:34 am: |
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Seeing how's most of you wouldn't know the difference between a WOF, Pentecostal or Charasmatic preacher if they were all standing in front of you. The lumping together of all manner of preachers as WOF would actually be funny, if it weren't for how ridiculously damaging it is to categorize everyone as being WOF.
I am telling you right here and right now as a Rhema affiliated preacher that no WOF Preacher (a True WOF Preacher) would ever tell anyone to NOT go to a doctor or to NOT use medicine.
IF THEY TELL YOU THIS THEY ARE NOT WOF, SO STOP LUMPING THEM ALL TOGETHER. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 414
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:00 pm: |
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Now having said that, let's hear the load of c _ _ p definition you have for "Apostle"... |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2486
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:10 pm: |
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I am telling you right here and right now as a Rhema affiliated preacher that no WOF Preacher (a True WOF Preacher) would ever tell anyone to NOT go to a doctor or to NOT use medicine(GTG)
Exactly-if you DO NOT have the faith(which of course would mean you had fear and were living in sin) then they would suggest you go to a physician....
Remember when they would tell people to jump on their seeing glasses-these guys go way back w/ all kinds of antics and I hope they have learned from some of them.
Anyway, sorry John Hagee-your a pretty cool ROBUST guy and I used to enjoy your teachings from time to time-I will not lump Hagee up w/ the Rhema guys... |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 417
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:29 pm: |
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Hi Racheal:
"Remember when they would tell people to jump on their seeing glasses-these guys go way back w/ all kinds of antics and I hope they have learned from some of them."
One of the very first books that showed up on my radar screen was by a WOF preacher named Fred Price, who wrote a book called "Faith, Foolishness and Presumption" in the early 1970's (I think). In it, he specifically addressed preachers who told people to crush their glasses and put it in the category of NOT faith, but foolishness and presumption. In fact, I will state this again. If someone tells you to do something along these lines, they are NOT a WOF preacher, they are most definitlely something else.
By all means seek God's power and anointing to heal FIRST, but likewise if it will help to alleviate pain, help to get you to be able to focus on the Word, etc., take medicine. ESPECIALLY in the case of children and the elderly. Why tolerate pain while your healing (God's power) is working in your body effecting a healing and a cure? By understand that it is not the medicine that heals you supernaturally, it is the power and the love of God that heals.
I don't know how else to say this, if someone tells you to NOT take medicine or to NOT go to doctors, then they are irresponsible and they are NOT WOF.
Now, what about that "composite" definition of "Apostle"? |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2487
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:42 pm: |
|
Now, what about that "composite" definition of "Apostle"?
You'll have to wait for the appropriate poster to get that answer. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 681
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 1:10 pm: |
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Rachel,
people like TRS have an answer for anytime someone does not get healed. Usually it is akin to what those elders believed about your mom.
Let me make clear my stance: We are not resposible for someone elses faith. If they faulter because of us, it is not our problem.
You are not responsible for your moms death. I do not believe that your mom died because she was "lacking faith" or had some "hidden sin". That is pentacostal rubish! Things happen that we can't always explain.
I lost my mother in 1998. We were all believing for her to live, but she died. I do not blame myself. I am just thankful that she was a Christian women. My younger sisiter asked me: "Al, did mom die because we did not have enough faith?" I quickly assured her that was NOT the case.
People have all the answers until something happens to them. However, I am sure that most hard line Pentacostals find blame somewhere; it is their way. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2490
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 1:16 pm: |
|
I agree, thank you bear for your kind words. Sometimes things just happen- one day the answers will be clearer....
Happy New Year... |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 682
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 1:33 pm: |
|
Getagrip,
I will give my take on modern day Apostles.
The Greek word "Apostolos" simple means "A delegate".
What most people do not realize is that it is a secular term, not an exclusive Christian term.
The Pastor/Teacher Rick Renner, whon holds a degree in classical Greek, explains how the term "Apostle" was used in antiquity. He states the term was used a the lead ship in a fleet that was delegated, or "sent" on a mission of colonization. They would build communities, and then move on.
I believe that we do have modern day apostles, but they show that they hold this office by the ministry that they have been called to perform, not by self-declaration.
To me, a Pastor who helps other pastors begin their church's, and then oversee's the pastor spiritualy, providing leadeship, etc, is considered an Apostle.
I know of one pastor who has planted close to 20 church's. He traveles around to them often, speaking on a Wednesdy night, and gives leadership and personal overshight to the pastors of these church's. If you called him an Apostle, he would not like it, but it is true; that is what he is.
The best example from the scriptures would be the relationship of Paul and Timmothy. Paul statrted the church in Ephesus, and raised up Timmothy to be the Pastor. Now, he was considered the "Head Elder". In reality, the pastor is an elder. (There is not any distinction in the text betwwen the elders and pastors.) Timmothy raised up other "Elders", or as we would call them, Associate Pastors, to help in the work. History tells us that the church in Ephesus was 100,000 strong.
Now, notice that Paul did not write to the elders, rather to Timmothy. Paul started the church, Timmothy pastored the church. Paul provided leadership and spiritual instruction to Timmothy.
That is my opinion. |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 661
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 67.165.152.36
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 2:21 pm: |
|
I am telling you right here and right now as a Rhema affiliated preacher that no WOF Preacher (a True WOF Preacher) would ever tell anyone to NOT go to a doctor or to NOT use medicine.
What standard are you using to determine who is a true WOF teacher and who is not?
Do all TRUE WOF teachers belong to Rhema? Or is there another WOF organization that has established fundamental beliefs for anyone claiming to be WOF and provides corrective action for those who do not follow these fundamental beliefs?
No? Then it's probably better to say that no true Christian preacher would ever tell anyone to NOT go to a doctor or to NOT use medicine.
Christians are supposed to be following the teachings and example of Jesus, and I don't remember Jesus (or any of the early church leaders) ever rebuking anyone for going to a doctor or taking medicine. Just my opinion. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 421
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 2:51 pm: |
|
"No? Then it's probably better to say that no true Christian preacher would ever tell anyone to NOT go to a doctor or to NOT use medicine."
Fair enough statement Marta, I was simply trying to make a point that lumping preachers together is stupid...
I think (I'm not sure) that we are saying the same thing, only you are trying to say without saying we agree , which is kind of the way you are.
Say it however you want to say it, I'm simply stating that people making statements that WOF preachers advise people not to take meds or go to doctors is inaccurate. If they say this, they are not WOF because the WOF does not teach this.
Paraphrase me however you like, regardless of how you slice we are in agreement - the practice of saying NO to doctors and medicine is wrong AND we (WOF) DO NOT teach this... |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 662
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 67.165.152.36
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 3:08 pm: |
|
My point is ... you can't really say that a true WOF teacher would not say that. There are no set standards as to what a true WOF teachers believes. Anyone can call himself WOF no matter how extreme his beliefs are. There is no WOF organization that sets the fundamental beliefs for their group of members and corrects those who stray from these beliefs.
In fact, I'm sure there are WOF teachers (or teachers who claim to be WOF, if you prefer) that tell people not to go to doctors or use medicine. But these "WOF teachers" are teaching something that is not scriptural. They have strayed from the teachings of Jesus and early church leaders. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 426
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:13 pm: |
|
Let me try this in English this time, tongues and Swahili are clearly not getting the job done...
If a TEACHER teaches that someone should not go to a doctor or use medicine, they are not WOF.
PS There ARE WOF organizations, and in some cases they are set up in such a way that correction would be given. YOU would certainly never know about it, as the correction would occur between one minister and another (acccording to Matt 18).
One other note, people who are NOT WOF rarely claim to be WOF because of all of the false info spread about them. So typically (not always), in my experience, if a preacher says he is "Word of Faith" - he generally (not always Greg Brady) IS Word of Faith.
Some who are often "labeled" WOF but are not due to doctrine stances that are not in alignment with what I would consider to be standard WOF doctrinal tenets are:
Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, Juanita Bynum, Rick Warren and TD Jakes.
Furthermore, an evangelist would never be considered WOF, because evangelists (one operating specifically in the office of an evangelist according to Eph 4:11) do not "teach" doctrine, they "preach" the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Just some random info, you asked me about standards in an earlier post and I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your question (which was a good one, by the way).
One further note... there are several large WOF ministerial gatherings every year - one in January for instance at Eagle Mountain in Fort Worth. You will not find these ministers in attendance at that ministerial gathering... and one can infer several things from their absence.
1) They do not willingly consent to placing THEMSELVES under the authority of another minister (for accountability, correction, etc.)
2) They do not "support" the ministry of Bro. Copeland and therefore are not on the invite list.
3) They are not WOF and do not wish to be categorized as such.
Is that helpful Marta, in terms of what you asked? |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 821
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:19 pm: |
|
BEAR,
WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW CAN KILL YOU.
"You are destroyed for a lack of knowledge"
How many healing verses do you know?
How much do you know about cellular disease, nutritional science, exercise, stress factors, immune suppressants, ph levels,. How many people have you prayed for and seen healed immediately or even gradually that doctors gave up on.
WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW CAN KILL YOU.
"You are destroyed for a lack of knowledge"
quit your whining and stop putting words in my mouth I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED.
I am not saying anyones lack of faith killed their mother (That is horse manure from the pit and I rebuke anyone that would say that)nor did I enter into this discussion regarding your mother anyone else that died. I don't even know what your loved one was struggling with. I added just a small amount of the different scenarios.
You ALL need to read a few books and compare them with your Bible. Here are just a few.
Remember Healing is a Spirit, Soul(intellect, will and emotions), and Physical thing.
Violate these laws and their are consequences.
There are laws of health, faith, prayer etc. just like their are laws of nature. Learn them.
Read the Genesis Diet by Dr Tessler, Seven Pillars of Healing by Dr. Colbert MD, Christ The Healer by FF BOSWORTH, Kicking Over Sacred Cows by Charles Capps, Healing series by Andrew Wommack. The True Nature of God by Andrew Wommack.
First of all it is not Gods will that anyone gets sick and dies sick. The Bible is clear about that.
God doesn't miss it. Gods word is true.
People miss it and sometimes missing it is life threatening.
YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW WHY. NEITHER DO SOME OF THE OTHER NAYSAYERS POSTING HERE.
YOU PEOPLE ARE EITHER ILLITERATE OR DON'T READ MY WHOLE POST.
I SAY THIS AGAIN. I SAID IN AN EMERGENCY TRAUMA SITUATION OR IF YOU HAVEN'T GOTTEN HEALED FROM PRAYER GO TO A DOCTOR. I NEVER NEVER NEVER SAID NOT TO GO TO A DOCTOR.
NOW THAT THAT IS SETTLED.
I DID SAY EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT GOD FAITH, PRAYER, SICKENESS, HEALING AND DOCTORS.
DOCTORS SCHOOLED BY THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION KILL PEOPLE DAILY. DRUGS KILL THOUSANDS YEARLY. RADIATION AND CHEMOTHERPY INFLICT DAMAGE FROM HIGHLY TOXIC POISONS THAT OVERTAX THE BODYS SYSTEMS KILLING THOUSANDS OF PERSONS.
THERE ARE BETTER THERAPIES.
THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO PRAY.
THERE ARE ALSO DOZENS OF REASONS (not just one)that hinder answers to prayer and WHY PEOPLE ARE NOT HEALED FROM PRAYER.
Most people cannot quote 5 verses that promise healing, yet nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus "tried and failed" to heal anyone. Unbelief, doubt other hindrances and faith are separate things they people can have simultaneously. Remove the hindrances and healing takes place.
WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW CAN KILL YOU. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 427
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:27 pm: |
|
"I SAY THIS AGAIN. I SAID IN AN EMERGENCY TRAUMA SITUATION OR IF YOU HAVEN'T GOTTEN HEALED FROM PRAYER GO TO A DOCTOR. I NEVER NEVER NEVER SAID NOT TO GO TO A DOCTOR.
NOW THAT THAT IS SETTLED.
I DID SAY EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT GOD FAITH, PRAYER, SICKENESS, HEALING AND DOCTORS."
Nicely put TRS, but as you and I both know - it is a lot easier to moan and cry and point the finger about what someone taught rather than stirring up the gifts of God within, increasing your faith according to Rom 10:17 and getting yourself and your family to the point where the wicked one toucheth you not.
PS What church does Wommack go to on the South side now that he no longer goes to Family Harvest? I want to tell some friends about it. |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 663
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 67.165.152.36
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:34 pm: |
|
If a TEACHER teaches that someone should not go to a doctor or use medicine, they are not WOF.
... in your opinion.
Have a nice evening. |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 823
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:39 pm: |
|
Get a grip,
southside of what?
Wommack holds Gospel Truth Seminars at conference centers in most major cities including Chicago which is the city you must be referring to.
He has also taught at and held his three day 'Gospel Truth Seminars' at Christian Life Center Church located in the eastern side of Tinley Park 183rd and Ridgeland (Note not Robb Thompsons church) a couple of times (with Bob Yandian speaking also). I have friends that attend there and love it. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 428
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:43 pm: |
|
Bear
"To me, a Pastor who helps other pastors begin their church's, and then oversee's the pastor spiritualy, providing leadeship, etc, is considered an Apostle."
Excellence exegesis... I agree wholeheartedly. To say that Apostles do not exist today is cultish and stupid. Any missionary who is doing what the Bible says he should do is doing the work of a modern day Apostle. Thank you sir for your Bible based answer minus the normal FACTNET c _ _ p that one typically has to endure to get a simple answer to a simple answer.
Like Yogi, you are smarter than the average bear! |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2499
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 4:54 pm: |
|
To say Apostles do not exist today is cultish???? Maybe it's just a difference of opinion. I think your throwing the cult word in there for namesake only...
Bear is a wonderful guy-the first person I bumped into factnet...
(Message edited by rachelengland on January 02, 2007) |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 432
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:00 pm: |
|
Actually it was in honor of your buddy Franklin who calls anything he doesn't like "cultish" and to watch you freak and defend him again. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 433
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:03 pm: |
|
"Christian Life Center Church located in the eastern side of Tinley Park 183rd and Ridgeland"
Thanks TRS, you're a goof about the Wommack/Copeland thing but I appreciate the help.
Good night all...
Time to head out for a lavish WOF dinner, then back to my lavish WOF home and perhaps a dip in my very lavish, heated WOF swimming pool... |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4714
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:05 pm: |
|
Mighty funny though that wherever you find a truly documented, agreed upon to be, meets all of factnet's criteria to be, dangerous mind controlling cult..... you find an "Apostle" and/or "Prophet" leading it! Yet in non cultic mainstream churches you don't hear the words "Prophet" or "Apostle" spoken much of except quoting the Bible. Very interesting!  |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 434
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:05 pm: |
|
"pompous, arrogant windbag who makes trs/infoman look like Captain Kangaroo"
TRS someone said this about you. I thought it was rude and insensitive, you look nothing like Capt. Kangaroo...
You are however, Mr. Green Jeans doppelganger. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2501
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:10 pm: |
|
I don't think I was freaking-I was actually pretty calm but beware franklin-getagrip has some type of obsession w/ us-very cultish(lol) |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 436
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 5:31 pm: |
|
Actually it's TRS I have obsession with... Rachael I simply asked you a couple of questions earlier today and you couldn't answer them - no big deal. However, although I don't interact with you, Cultbusters, Franklin, Bluewater etc hardly at all, only read - I have noticed that you and Franklin are just as guilty of the things that you accuse "them" of... "beware Franklin - getagrip has some type of obsession" in other words, c'mon Franklin, sic 'em. Isn't that what you and he are always saying that they are a ravenous wolfpack? You guys are funny, it's been a fun day but I really need to get back to my lavish, divine health, prosperous lifestyle... |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 615
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 6:53 pm: |
|
Get
Shame on you. You plagarized me. And after I apologized and everything - which, for the record, was never acknowledged or accepted by trs.
No forgiveness, trs? I still mean the apology I posted. If you don't respond I'll have to assume that you don't forgive me and accept my apology. Seriously, I'm not baiting you. I know I have in the past but on this whole WOF thing I actually agree in part with you. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 684
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 7:10 pm: |
|
Trs, good to hear from you again.
1. I know many healing verses, and use them often.
2. I believe that, according to Luke 4:18-19, that physical healing is only one type of healing that Jesus performed.
3. I Have seen people healed instantly. I have seen it in the USA, and I have seen it on trips oversee's. I have seen it from those that I have prayed for. Not all of it was physical healing, but two cases were; instant.
4. I know a lot about health. I was a die hard triathlete for years. A strict nutricious diet was all I ate.
5. I am not being destroyed for my lack of knowledge. I know that "With out faith it is impossible to please God." I HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE< AND PRACTICE THAT KNOWLEDGE!
6. You DID imply that a lack of faith, some one elses, causes prayers not to be answered. That is, if I am doubting, I may cause someone close to me to not get a prayer answered. In fact, you did NOT imply, you stated it as such!
7. I have a close pastor friend of mine who is losing his battle with cancer. He is on the most strict diest, for the past year, that I have ever seen. His faith is stronger than most people that I have met. Try telling him or his family that their lack of faith is the cause. Not only would you be WRONG! You would be linched by the entire church.
8. I had a bad hernia. I needed an operation. Are you suggsting that I should have lived with it, and not sought medical attention? Should I have prayed night and day until it was healed? Or did I do the right thing? Was my stupidity in working out the cause, or was it Satan attacking me? Well... |
aferrill
Junior Member
Username: aferrill
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 69.64.110.1
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 7:19 pm: |
|
This topic always makes my blood boil.
I believe in healing and have seen healings.
What is so frustrating are those that tell me I don't need depression meds. Only God can do it. It's lack of faith, etc. I suffered needlessly for years and felt like a loser as a Christian cause I wasn't healed. When I finally started medication 7 years ago, it opened up a whole new world! I could now give up control and let God into areas that previously were walled off. If not for meds, I know I'd be dead. Plain and simple. Christians need to very very careful how they treat those who go to doctor's and especially those on psych meds. They end up doing more damage than good. I have said for years that the people that judged me the most were the Christians, not the unsaved! How sad. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 687
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 7:30 pm: |
|
aferrill,
In this world our bodies are not perfect. Those people who said those thigs to you do not understand that there are conditions that require meds. It is easy for people who do not suffer from a condition to be judgemental. It is another story when it happens close to home. |
trsrinheaven
Advanced Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 826
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 7:39 pm: |
|
bear,
get it straight anally clear.
I stated your prayer Gods power was hindered and negated IF YOU DOUBT, OR HAVE UNBELIEF even if you have faith. i DID NOT SAY NOT TO GO TO DOCTORS!!!!!
Jesus could do no mighty works because of their unbelief. The disciples were hindered by their unbelief.
The Israelites unbelief stopped them from entering into the promise land.
CAN YOU FLIPPIN' READ!!!
HIS FAMILY DIDN'T CAUSE CANCER.
HIS POOR DIET, STRESS, AIR WATER FOOD AND WRONG THINKING CAUSED HIM TO GIVE PLACE TO CANCER.
HE MISSED IT AND YOU EXPECT he AND THEM TO BE IN FAITH?
WITHOUT ANY HINDRANCES?
SATAN HATES HEALTH. HE AUTHORED SICKNESS. SATAN HAS NO POWER OF HIS OWN. HE USES YOUR POWER AGAINST YOURSELF.
COME ON WAKE UP AND QUIT LIEING TO ME AND ACCUSING ME OF THINGS I NEVER SAY.
Cancer doesn't come overnight.
Sometimes the damage done by the cancer needs to heal up and that take some time.
NOTE THERE IS A BETTER WAY TO PRAY.
THAT GETS BETTER RESULTS. MORE RESULTS.
Also you can speak new parts into this person.
I have seen persons become totally healed speaking commanding new parts into them for the parts damaged by cancer. God does his own transplants! I have seen the results of Speaking to the mountain" as Jesus said to do. All it takes is mustard seed faith, believing and seeing the result in your heart BEFORE and when you pray.
God said to pray and speak the word in faith He by the power of the Holy Spirit(the same Spirit in you that raised Jesus from the dead-
Romans 8)will do the rest.
8. Your cancer friend needs to look into an alkaline ph supplement and diet.
Cancer cannot live in oxygenated body and alkaline ph promotes this.
Curse the cancer and command it die "in Jesus name" at the root of every cell in their body.
I have seen tremendous results "speaking to the mountain" BUT THEY NEED TO RECEIVE AND BE IN A PLACE SPIRITUAL ATTITUDE OF FAITH TO RECEIVE.
Cancer is easy for Gods power spoken using Jesus name(the name above every name-even cancer) in faith to see healed.
9. If you can't see your hernia healed go to a doctor. I am saying seek God and give God time to heal. You have to walk before you run- If you can't heal a cold how do you expect to see a hernia.
Also your own healing may need someone to agree with you WHO HAS NO UNBELIEF HINDRANCES - "One can send a 1000-Two can send 10,000". Unbelief is stronger in your own body by the senses reinforcing FEELINGS not faith-Thus Building unbelief. We don't go by how it looks or feels. "We walk by FAITH not by sight.
GODS WORD IS BIGGER THAN ANY SICKNESS.
You really need to Read the Genesis Diet by Dr Tessler, Seven Pillars of Healing by Dr. Colbert MD, Christ The Healer by FF BOSWORTH, Kicking Over Sacred Cows by Charles Capps, Healing series by Andrew Wommack. The True Nature of God by Andrew Wommack.
First of all it is not Gods will that anyone gets sick and dies sick. The Bible is clear about that.
God doesn't miss it. Gods word is true.
People miss it and sometimes missing it is life threatening.
Hi cybermom,
I didn't see the apology, but I don't hold any unforgiveness towards anyone especially well meaning moms. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 689
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 8:02 pm: |
|
Trs, you said:
"CAN YOU FLIPPIN' READ!!!"
I can, and I think that is a bit uncalled for.
My friend has done it all. His wife is so into organics, the alkaline ph supps, everthing. He was in remmission twice. He surrounds himself with the Word, worship music, prayer, et. He is still losing.
The truth is, we die in this life. Sometimes even after we pray.
I believe 100% in healing. I also believe that God is in control.
On another note, do you believe that one should seek counseling from a trained counselor? Or do you think that they should only seek pastoral counsel? |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 438
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 8:11 pm: |
|
Hey CM,
"Shame on you. You plagarized me. And after I apologized and everything - which, for the record, was never acknowledged or accepted by trs."
I'm sorry C, I didn't realize you had apologized or whatever... I was just messing with TRS. Like always. I apologize to you. |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 426
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.39.65
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 8:22 pm: |
|
aferrill,
It is not one individual's lack of faith, but it is an the equal resistance against faith by those Christians like franklin, trsinheaven, bear, rachelengland, etc. who use factnet to hinder/destroy others from walking by faith which ultimately "binds" God from healing. Look at those Christians on factnet who gloat when they find a story of someone being healed and then five years later the person dies-- they love this because they get to accuse a minister and in their dream of dreams hope that some Governmental organization will rise up to put an end to these ministries. This is their ultimate desire! This type of "faith" resistance is not just against "healing" but it is also against God blessing Christians. There shouldn't be any arguing against this because God promised us He would bless us. These Christians say it is okay for Christians who work for themselves to live with expensive items, just not those in ministry. But, Jesus said those who make the kingdom of God their first priority, He will give all the things that they could have gained if they served themselves. But those who resist "faith" argue against those who teach God's people this. They want to make everyone sound like greedy madmen. They all want to measure ministers to Paul, but they do not even come close to Paul, in fact they even deny what Paul wrote! They are the ones who work for themselves and come here to "teach" against those who do walk by faith. These people usually judge ministers by their own mediocre living and they judge others to themselves. But they are not the ones who have a huge responsibility and so these ministers deserve whatever they are due and it is not for these people to decide. Those who resist faith only use the "responsibility" of a minister when it is to accuse them of not living up to it, never in regards to how they are paid. Faithful Christians stewards are going to be those who use their money and their testimony to ensure the protection of the Gospel, these people are not those. Posting on factnet doesn't cost them anything! It is those like franklin, rachelengland, bear, etc. who argue against ministries who are the ones who do not walk by faith, they walk by what they see! And God knows this and so He allows them to deceive themselves. I do not believe in any minister, I believe by faith in the Word of God, regardless of what I see or hear! Therefore I will be kept safe and I will be kept from sinning against God! In the Old Testament when all God's people heard God through His servants they obeyed and God rescued His people out of their troubles. But, Christians such as you, franklin, bear and Rachelengland, etc. argue against this, seeking only your own. The ones who are deceived are those who do not walk by faith. This isn't about you getting healed, it is what you did when you did't that truly reveals your lack of faith in God. I know someone who suffered from a chemical imbalance and she got medical treatment and it has helped her a lot, but there are still signs that her "judgement" is a little off and so I caution her to be extra careful... not that I caution her to stop using her medication-- just be aware that she is not fully in control. So the question is now because of your testimony are we to put our faith in medicine? Because, medicine fails people all the time!!! Or are you as a Christian going to recognize what true faith is? "That I'm going to trust God no matter what! His will be done, not mine!" Who here recognizes there is far more visible and tangible evidence that no medical treatment works except that God allows it! Do you really want your public testimony to be for medicine and against Christians preaching and practicing faith? |
franklin
Senior Member
Username: franklin
Post Number: 4716
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.4.117.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 8:43 pm: |
|
None of the above post is true concerning the accusations made against the people mentioned.  |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 690
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.159.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 9:18 pm: |
|
Franklin,
You are correct. |
cybermom
Advanced Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 619
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:18 pm: |
|
Get
Like I said on the "corona" thread I'm just messin' wit ya.
trs
Thanks. I just wanted to clear the air between us.
hey love this because they get to accuse a minister and in their dream of dreams hope that some Governmental organization will rise up to put an end to these ministries. This is their ultimate desire!
???? Wow, not too much paranoia here,huh? I didn't know that by disagreeing with someone I was siding with the antichrist. Next will I be part of the military industrial complex? 
All-or-nothing thinking is actually quite cult-like. Abusive groups see things as only black or white with nothing in between. We can agree/disagree with people and not completely throw everything they say out the window.
HFL, you need to stop lumping together everyone who doesn't see the world exactly as you do and seeing them as the enemy. The only One who has a complete handle on the Truth IS the Truth, Jesus.
CM |
aferrill
Junior Member
Username: aferrill
Post Number: 30
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 69.64.110.1
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:57 pm: |
|
Whoa....so if *I* had been more faithful, then I would have been healed? That's the exact thing that almost drove me from the church AND God! The very people that were supposed to nourish and point me towards God do the opposite - make it MY problem. You think if I could have figured out a way to change, I would have? All the nights I cried because I was still in pain from daily migraines. Even Paul had a thorn in his flesh. You think he didn't have enough faith?
I truly believe God allows things to happen to us. I can continue to allow God to use me to help others with chronic pain. I am almost insulted. The reason I'm not is that I've heard this line so many times, that's it's almost laughable. Phone me the next time YOU are sick and don't get well. Let's see how you feel. Downtrodden cause you're being talked down to? Here's a bit of info for ya. I had 5, count em, 5 miscarriages. When I lost the first baby God told me he was going to use me to minister to women who suffer through the same pain. Did I want to lose my babies? Nope. Am I now thankful? Yes, because I handed my pain over to God even when I felt like I wanted to die. Now he's using me. That's the difference between black and white thinking and letting God use our infirmities and pain. This should open a big can of worms. One more thing. I am open to stopping my meds. If I'm lean that way, I run it by my Christian counselor. I'm still open to healing. For now, I'm happy and feel this is what God wants me to do. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2503
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 9:12 am: |
|
I will tell you this and it is the very last time I will speak of it! My mother was a healthy women, she drank Barley Green everyday and ate food in it's purest form-she was a hair and face model and took very good care of her body- exercising before it was a fad-she had a healthy positive attitude and lived a life pleasing to the Lord-she was humble and sweet in her demeanor. And she got sick pure and simple we live in the WORLD we aren't in heaven things aren't perfect yet.
I have said for years that the people that judged me How sad. (aferril)---- That was perfectly stated christians need to get over it-we are humans we are not God's...
(Message edited by rachelengland on January 03, 2007) |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2504
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 9:45 am: |
|
I will tell you this and it is the very last time I will speak of it! My mother was a healthy women, she drank Barley Green everyday and ate food in it's purest form-she was a hair and face model and took very good care of her body- exercising before it was a fad-she had a healthy positive attitude and lived a life pleasing to the Lord-she was humble and sweet in her demeanor. And she got sick, pure and simple. We live in the WORLD we aren't in heaven- things aren't perfect yet. (as you can tell because I had to post this again and fix my mistakes)
I have said for years that the people who judged me- we're the christians, not the unsaved. How sad. (aferril)---- That was perfectly stated christians need to get over it-we are humans we are not God's... |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 440
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 9:47 am: |
|
I absolutely can't spend any time here today as I am continuing to work on my lavish lifestyle, spending, gluttony and overall WOF indulgences today.. but I just wanted to say that the one of the funniest things I read the last couple of days was someone getting offended by the phrase "can you flippin' read?" but not being offended in the same post by the significantly more insulting, "get it straight anally clear"!
I love it!!! Seriously I don't know what I did for internet entertainment prior to finding Factnet. Thank you for the laughs, esp. Franklin, Rachael, TRS.. priceless!!! Be blessed everyone, I'll catch up in a day or two. Please don't spare anyone the sanctimonious, self-righteous tirades - keep them coming!! |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 441
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 9:54 am: |
|
"you need to stop lumping together everyone who doesn't see the world exactly as you do and seeing them as the enemy." But C... it's so much fun and so convenient! And Godly. And Loving. And Pure and lovely and of a good report. |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 444
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 10:04 am: |
|
Really I think all of the really interesting Factnet dialouge will be occuring today on the Social Nudism Cult thread on The Social Organization forum on Factnet... get over and check it out quick |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 664
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.57.85.125
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 11:09 am: |
|
I absolutely can't spend any time here today as I am continuing to work on my lavish lifestyle, spending, gluttony and overall WOF indulgences today.
I sure Bros. Copeland, Thompson, Tilton, and all the rest of the WOF good ol'boys club would be proud. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2509
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 12:15 pm: |
|
 |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 427
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.39.65
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 12:24 pm: |
|
Below is for franklin, rachelengland, marta, trsinheaven, bear and those in your "club"....
I woke up from a dream and God began explaining it to me.... In the dream I had gone to a farmers market. I was excited because I thought I would be able to buy a large bag of apples. Once inside I saw pears. All kinds of pears. They were on all the stands. I didn't want them, I wanted apples, so I moved on. I finally found one small bag of puny looking apples. I was disappointed because this was all the apples they had. I moved on to see if they had apples elsewhere. I looked and looked and I didn't see any more apples. I was growing more and more frustrated and impatient with whoever was in charge of this fruit selection. My impatience and rude behavior was getting noticed by those in charge of the market and the fruit stands. I was so angered I decided to go, but then my eyes caught a display of tomatoes. I thought they were the kind of tomatoes I liked and so I was going to buy them, but to my dismay they seemed bruised and old. Then I saw a very "healthy" kind of wheat bread, but it was stale, long past its sale date and so I put it back. Then I woke up and God started explaining my dream to me.... He said that factnet is all about "fruit inspectors". God said that He is the Lord of the harvest and they do not like what He has raised up and given abundance of. Those on factnet do not want what is offered, they want what they want and will do without and will become irate at the Farmer and those who only sale what He has provided for them. God said that the arguing over a tomato, which was a fruit, but because people would become irate, disagreeing vehemently that the tomato is a vegetable and not a fruit! Because this is what they believe because this is how they use a tomato!. All the arguing it was a vegetable has made some definers give in and rewrite the definition, calling the tomato both a fruit and a vegetable. God said this is what those on factnet are doing with their arguing. What about the pears? God had told me that the buyers do not understand that they are being sold what they needed, they are so accustomed to having a selection and picking and choosing to their taste! But God said what if what He wants for them is Pears. I wasn't certain about this and then God reminded me of something I read recently about the song "Twelve Days of Christmas" and the line A partridge in a pear tree. The partridge represented Jesus Christ. The stale bread is those who are teaching that "health" of the body is in eating healthy, but God warns do not put your faith in this because He alone gives us health and life. To substitute this "teaching" for faith will be judged. It is true the dream was my dream and I have been craving apples and when offered pears I didn't want them.... but now I will eat pears. |
terluvire
Intermediate Member
Username: terluvire
Post Number: 498
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.115.63.15
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:36 pm: |
|
hope_faith_and_love,
Quote:
The stale bread is those who are teaching that "health" of the body is in eating healthy, but God warns do not put your faith in this because He alone gives us health and life.
Does God not give us health laws to follow? Eating healthy is part of following God. Now if one doesn't eat healthy, does it affect their salvation? No. It only affects ones health.
The book of Luke....Luke was a medical doctor. Doesn't God give us intelligence? Yes. God gives us intelligence and commonsense and expects us to use it. Doctors are a blessing.
Accidents happen:
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
The tower which fell on them had nothing to do with their faith! Accidents happen in this world PERIOD!
Look at Job:
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, a | |
