Little Prince's lessons on love

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post Thoughts on the Little Prince, Love, Compassion, and Friendship nabashalam 3  1  12-29-06  10:07 pm   Start New Thread

Author Message   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.110.72 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:54 pm:        Dear Priceless, Thank you for introducing me to such a heart warming story. I don't often take the time to read novels or fictional stories as I usually determine they are of no consequence. However, I do charish stories, or poems, that provide metaphors or symbolism that brings to life matters of great consequence pertaining to the heart. Before I read the story of the little prince, I wondered why on earth the little prince would ever leave his own planet and his perfect little rose. But, early on in the story it becomes evident that the little rose was not so perfect after all, as neither was her little prince. So, from the beginning of this tale, you have a little prince who is discontented with his circumstances, living his life on his little planet, doing the mundane tasks of weeding the baobab trees, cleaning out his volcanoes, and taking care of the little rose who he adored so much until her vanity quickly became too difficult for him to deal with, and alas, he claimed he was to young to know how to love her, and ran away. Next, you have the little prince visiting the neighboring asteroids, and meeting people stuck in cycles that keep them where they are, in isolation. We could discuss each of these characters at length and all the lessons to be learned from them, but since you have specifically mentioned the fox, we will stick to him. The little prince finds the planet earth much different from the other planets, or asteroids, in that it is heavily inhibited by a vast array of plants, animals, and people. However, he is most astonished to discover that these creatures are still very much isolated in their hearts without love. Then, the fox appears on the scene, as the little prince is expressing a deep loneliness and longing for a friend. The prince is marveling at all the roses in the desert garden thinking about how his rose is nothing special after all, and concluding that he himself must be worthless as well. But, the fox teaches him what he did not know, which is how to love, and the value of love, the very thing that makes his rose unique to him, and him special to his rose. In turn, the little prince later teaches this essential principle to the pilot, thus the pilot is tamed by the little prince culminating when the pilot gently revives his withered little friend with a sip of water from the well spring. Not long afterwards, the little prince is home bound to return to fulfull his love for his rose. So, what are matters of consequence? What is essential which is invisible to the eye? Clearly it is love only visible through the heart. In the story of the little prince, the grown ups on the earth rush about, often missing this fundamental truth, while the children seem to intuitively understand these matters of the heart, until their hearts are broken, as was the pilots when he was a young child by an event that left him so wounded that he chose never to share his dreams, or his life, and especially his heart with anyone again...until the little prince came along. This is a familiar story, isn't it? You see, the little prince, like all the other adults on the earth, was not happy where he was with what he had, and so he left home with a desire, not driven from greed, and so it was revealed to him how to love through being loved. It is a beautiful story, with a great deal of symbolism of which I have only just touched upon.   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.110.72 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:57 pm:        What character do you identify with most in the story, Priceless? I suppose I would have to answer that I identify mostly with the little prince. Do I know how to love? If I claim that I do, then there is no need to be tamed. If I admit that I do not, then surely I must thirst to drink from the spring of water welling up to eternal life to live out the desire of my heart, to love and be loved. sweet dreams!   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 836 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.10 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:07 pm:        Well, its a dirty job, but somebodies got to be the fox!   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 76 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:31 am:        LOL are you saying that you are the fox nab? I must say that I identify with several characters. Certainly the Little Prince as far as the journey goes - since we all are on a journey. Still I do picture the Little Prince as a type of Christ willing to return for his rose. I also identify with the rose alot. Ya know with the my own thorns for protection. I do not identify with the snake at all and it was this character that bothered me the most. Why the Little Prince would allow the snake to bite him? (And how is this a story for kids if you have the hero being bit by a snake towards the end?) However, although imperfect like the first Adam, I believe the Little Prince is a type of Christ. Christ died so that we could be reconciled with Him. I don't see myself as the fox but I do understand some of the lessons that the fox tries to teach. The fox is a teacher in this story which reminds me of the law. One of the things that I love is that the Little Prince's golden hair will now remind the fox of the wheat fields(again - to me biblical symbolism). Before the Little Prince, the wheat fields meant nothing to the fox. Funny thing is that I never really identified with the Pilot that much. If you haven't heard Rachel Portman and Nicholas Wright's treatment of this story in their opera, it is well worth viewing and/or listening to. It provides yet another dimension to the story. They make the baobab trees come to life with their little ditty - Sleep, sleep, sleeping in the slime. Dreaming of a life of crime. And then the vaudeville rendition of the vain man is wonderful! Yet best of all, I love the lamplighter and all the stars. I see the stars as perhaps angels but their is another representation of light on the earth and that is all the lamplighters. The lamplighters light up the earth much like the bridesmaids with their lamps. The drunkard just did not really speak to me at all. Still back with the lamplighter on his own planet - I loved this part. At first his job seemed reasonable until his planet started turning faster and faster. I can certainly identify with that. I also love the musical treatment in the opera surrounding the lamplighter. Oh and as far as a grand chorus finale - this opera has one of the best I am convinced! The chorus is made up of all textures of voices old and small that represent the various characters throughout the story. Their voices weave in and out of the chorus much like the Little Prince traveled in and out of places in the story. Nab, watch out - the fox did get tamed in the story so ya never know - you might just get tamed some day.   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:35 am:        So what about the sheep? --------------------------------------- I love this: I was surprised by suddenly understanding that mysterious radiance of the sands. When I was a little boy I lived in an old house, and there was a legend that a treasure was buried in it somewhere. Of course, no one was ever able to find the treasure, perhaps no one even searched. But it cast a spell over the whole house. Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:38 am:        Sunshine, I believe earlier you questioned why the Little Prince did not take the fox with him. I think that is part of the parable in the story: In spite of all this sadness, however, the story staunchly insists that relationships are worth the trouble. The fox and the narrator may both lose the little prince, but their world is enhanced nevertheless—wheat fields and night skies come alive. To emphasize this positive aspect of lost relationships, the narrator describes his desolate final drawing of the barren landscape where the prince fell as both the saddest and the loveliest place in the world. The Little Prince, though it deals with serious and even upsetting issues, emphasizes the idea that good can be derived from sad events. The little prince learns that his rose must die, but this knowledge fires his love for her. The relationship between the narrator and the prince reaches new levels of intensity only after the prince makes it clear that he will depart. http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/littleprince/section9.rhtml   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:47 am:        But, the fox teaches him what he did not know, which is how to love, and the value of love, the very thing that makes his rose unique to him, and him special to his rose. Well said. I was so stuck in comparing the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to the law that I saw this here as the fox is indeed a teacher. But why did the author select a fox to teach love? There is no doubt that this did happen - I just don't understand why that character?   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 1:27 am:        I loved that too! And you know what, I did identify really well with the pilot, and I was so humbled by the way he felt about adults, and then he became one. Life is a journey, isn't it? With all it's twists and turns, you just never know! There are always lessons to be learned, and the most valuable ones seem to hurt the most. I hope the little rose was ok, after all, she only had her four "claws." I would love to see the opera! I'll have to seek that out. Did you know that the twelve tribes community built their own opera house? It's in Coxsackie,NY next to the Hudson River. In the opera does the snake BITE the little prince? In the version of the story I read, I thought differently. When the prince firsts lands on earth, the sake coils himself around the little prince's ankle and says, "Whomever I touch, I send back to the earth from whence he came," the snake spoke again. "But you are innocent and true, and you come from a star . . ." and then he said, "I can help you, some day, if you grow too homesick for your own planet. I can--" When the prince came back a year later, the snake sent him back to his home, just like how he left with the migration of a flock of wild birds. These animals must have provided the portal of his travels. The snake helped him, because he was innocent and true. I believe he really didn't know how to love his rose, he had to grow up first, somebody else had to tame him, the rose was just a blooming bud. I read nothing of the snake biting him, but only of their second encounter. But, the little prince surely was terrified and suffered for his rose. It was nice to share your point of view on the lamplighters, and the wheat fields, and most of all, the well. What did you think about the metaphores with the food chain? Like the boa constrictor and the elephant, and the sheep and the rose?   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 1:30 am:        More on the fox this week, have a good one!   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:30 am:        I would love to see the opera! I'll have to seek that out. Did you know that the twelve tribes community built their own opera house? It's in Coxsackie,NY next to the Hudson River. You can actually buy a DVD of the opera on Amazon. Very few groups have put this opera on anyway, including the US. After all it is such a new opera. I was fortunate enough to see it in person and I do have the DVD? Didn't know about the opera house (is this a vauldeville type opera house or a traditional opera house - not that in many ways there is much difference). I really don't know much about the TT. I see easeltime saying it is a cult because their belief in the identify of Jesus. Still, I do feel that God wants me to be a steward of what He has given me. I can give it all if I want to but I don't have to join a group to do this. In the opera does the snake BITE the little prince? In the version of the story I read, I thought differently. It sure seemed that way. The snake tells the Little Prince that everything he touches goes back to where they came from. Perhaps he didn't - I'll have to watch again. And the snake also talks in riddles because he solves them all? (Now this is where I became concerned that their my be some Theosophist slant to this.) I think he does bite the prince in the story. From the Sparknotes (link noted above): Even though the snake the little prince encounters in the desert speaks in riddles, he demands less interpretation than the other symbolic figures in the novel. The snake also has less to learn than many of the other characters. The grown-ups on the various planets are too narrow-minded for their own good, and the prince and the narrator edge closer to enlightenment, but the serpent does not require answers or even ask questions. In fact, the snake is so confident he has mastered life’s mysteries that he tells the prince he speaks only in riddles because he can solve all riddles. In a story about mysteries, the snake is the only absolute. His poisonous bite and biblical allusion indicate that he represents the unavoidable phenomenon of death. ------------------------------------------------ I hope the little rose was ok, after all, she only had her four "claws." What can I say, I also still identify with the rose. In the version of the story I read, I thought differently. I understand that there are many different translations.   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:40 am:        What did you think about the metaphores with the food chain? Like the boa constrictor and the elephant, and the sheep and the rose? The elephant is a big dream or desire in the Pilot's youth that was swallowed by others (possibly a parent). The picture actually represents what the pilot felt was happening to him. His desire to draw was swallowed up by those more powerful (note the snake later says he is powerful at least in the opera). His desire to draw or be an artist was killed (snake - death allegory) by the parents who said "why be scared of a hat?"). Again, the parents could not see what was invisible - the elephant inside the boa so their eyesight brought them to believe the drawing was something else. The pilot then has to go on and follow another path instead of this particular desire of his heart. The rose is another desire of this heart. The sheep is also something that he had desired. Perhaps this a reference to having more desire and hoping that one doesn't eat up the other? The one desire, the sheep, is actually the fruit of the desire that was killed earlier in his life. That is one of the reasons it has to be drawn several times and ultimately doesn't turn out right until it is in a crate and invisible much like the elephant swallowed by the boa. Perhaps the sheep also represents love? The Prince is concerned that the sheep will eat the rose. Perhaps this is like smoothering the rose or something like that. I look forward to your post on the fox.   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 3:06 pm:        "You can actually buy a DVD of the opera on Amazon." Oh, good, because I don't get out to the opera very often. I have actually never seen one, but I like the singing and theatrics of opera. "Didn't know about the opera house (is this a vauldeville type opera house or a traditional opera house - not that in many ways there is much difference)." I'm really not sure, here is a link, maybe you will be able to tell. twelvetribes.com/whereweare/us/coxsackie.html It makes sense that the snake represents death, but we know the little prince doesn't die. He tells the snake as the pilot is approaching, "You have good poison? You are sure that it will not make me suffer too long?" Later, the pilot pleas, "Little man, tell me that it is only a bad dream--this affair of the snake, and the meeting-place, and the star . . ." The little prince answered, "The thing that is important is the thing that is not seen . . ." The little prince also comforts him by saying, "it will look as if I were dead; and that will not be true . . .You understand . . . it is too far. I cannot carry this body with me. It is too heavy. But it will be like an old abandoned shell." Then, there was nothing but a flash of yellow light at his ankle, and he is motionless for an instant before he falls to the ground without a sound. However, the pilot does not find his body at daybreak concluding it was not such a heavy body after all. This does seem to symbolize the death and resurrection of the Messiah. The little prince suffers a sort of death for his rose, but his purity of love actually grants him the desire of his heart to love his rose. He also leaves a sign of his love in the pilot's heart heard through his laughter when he looks at the stars in the sky, and in the heart of the fox when he hears the sound of the wind blowing through the wheat fields reminding him of his friend, both images symbolic for the kingdom. So, who does the rose represent? I identified with her foolishness when she is quick to speak of things before she realizes she doesn't know what she was talking about. Could she represent the things about ourselves which we grow impatient with and give up on sometimes, rather than doing what is necessary to develop character and be able to love from a pure heart? Still more on the fox and other parables to come...   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 3:13 pm:        P.S. I enjoyed your insight to the boa constrictor, the elephant, the sheep, and the rose too.   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 5:17 pm:        Good evening, priceless, It has been such a beautiful day where I live, and now I'm sitting outside in a gentle breeze watching the sunset. I'm thinking about how I could never possess this moment, but only be thankful of it's beauty. When I was younger and I traveled about different countries, it amazed me how much a person could do without. In fact, it was often the hopitality and generosity of others that that got me by, in more ways than one. I was very fortunate to encounter so many more good people than bad, and we always shared what we had. It was neat how it worked out many times to trade with each other things that we needed only out of the goodness in our hearts, and not obligation. I have always remembered meeting some people at a festival who had a food stand, only charging donations, because they said that food was for everyone, whether they had money or not. Was it their food? They did not even grow it, however they did buy it at the store. But, the way they gave it to people made it seem more like a gift from God, and I'm sure most people were very thankful, and gave a donation from the bottom of their heart, and not just in the form of cash. Well, there she goes, time to get started on dinner. May we be thankful for the love in our food tonight.   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 86 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:41 pm:        Sunshine, I wasn't prepared for your last post but I'll "chew" on it and get back to you. Ironically, God is working in themes today . . . on the radio today - learning to do without. So after much contemplation, I thought - I'm getting rid of this semi-utility extra (cable . . .) and ended up saving about $45 a month with still the same items because of special promotions. God is good! The rose . . . alas. That is the character I'm stuck on now. I go from character to character and spend time contemplating them. No logical order . . . just as God teaches. The Rose is the Bride of Christ. The Prince may not be perfect but in many ways he is as perfect as they come. The Rose just has problems seeing this. Even though I've read the book - I'm in love with the libretto. So let me share the Prince's love, waiting and care for the Rose and perhaps you will see the biblical picture. More ...   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:50 pm:        Beforehand: Prince to the Pilot: Serious! You talk like the grown-ups. You confuse everything. A man who says he's serious Over and over Isn't a man at all He's just a mushroom! (I've heard it said that mushrooms are fed manure and kept in the dark.) ON MY PLANET (Libretto by Nicholas Wright) PRINCE: On my planet there's a flower Like no other in the skies. You would think she's vain and cruel If you looked with grown-up eyes. But I love her, and I worry When she's out of doors Lest a sheep may crush her petals In his greedy jaws. (Note: I'm thinking maybe a wolf in sheep's clothing? But maybe not.) If a flower is loved by someone If that someone is a boy He will watch the stars at midnight He'll look up and laugh with joy. If his flower has been taken Stars will flee the sky. Then he will see the blackness And he'll cry. And so will I. That's serious. (I'll post this, eat and post more [Nicholas Wright I hope you don't mind - this is beautiful!]) (Message edited by Priceless on December 11, 2006)   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 88 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:10 pm:        I have left my only flower In a bed of weeds and stones She has no-one left to guard her Four sharp thorns are all she owns. She is proud but she is also Weaker than she knows. She can't tell when she's in danger She is just a rose. Flowers have been in mortal danger Ever since the world was born Sheep are strong and sheep are stupid Sheep don't care about a thorn . . . Maybe another symbol but right now - I'm thinking she represents the author's wife and in turn the Bride of Christ. That's why the Prince had to make his journey to earth and then die to reconcile to his rose. That's my thought.   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:17 pm:        And it just gets better: PILOT He'd found his flower as a sprout He'd watered her And tended her And begged her to come out. But she was busy Getting ready so she answered with a pout. Still he persevered. And then one morning she appeared. My favorite line from the rose: In case you think I'm weak or soft See these spikes I hold aloft Sharpened for a deadly task . . . These are the thorns with which a rose Protects herself (which she can't) against her foes With my thorns I'll do or dare I'll slash the throat of a lunging bear Even a tiger would offer a "Yelp!" If I attacked him with my . . . HELP! There's a caterpillar crawling! How appalling! Yep - that's me - ferocious!   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:24 pm:        You did get the desires analogy? Good seed - bad seed? The rose is also the good desire or seed. Sin is the bad desire or seed. That's why we have the baobab trees. You need to weed the baobab's before they get too large but don't accidentally pull up a rose. I love that! Notice: There! That's the last one gone! It's boring work, but it's got to be done. Avoiding the flowers is hardest of all. They look just like the baobab's when their small. That's stewardship - we sometimes want to suffer so much that we get rid of the good desires (the rose) that are placed in our heart by God because we mistake them for a baobab tree! (Like the Pilot's desire to draw.)   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 842 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.138.7 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:44 pm:        The Prince ultimately taught the fox something!   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 8:48 pm:        Hmmm . . . the libretto says: Finally the Prince is allowed to touch the Fox; at this point the Fox is tamed. I guess Christ tames us doesn't He? Sunshine, now I'm sitting outside in a gentle breeze watching the sunset. Ah, enjoying the sunset like the Little Prince. On the rest of your post, again your timing is impeccable. God has been speaking to me a lot lately about how one can do without physical things - through the messages on the radio, conversations of the day, and life's circumstances.   here_comes_sunshine Junior Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 9:44 pm:        Priceless, Thank you for sharing the peices from the libretto. It sheds new light on the story, and I was especially tickled by the ferocious rose! The prince was willing to do anything for his rose once he realized how much he loved her. There was no price too high to pay, not even death. I think it is the same with sharing your possessions. If you really love someone, you want to share what you have with them. I have never understood how anyone could get married and sign a prenuptial agreement. The way I see it, if you don't trust the person enough to share your possessions, then how can you trust them to share your life and your heart? Should not the bride of Yahshua be a witness to such love as well? I've got to get some work done now. I don't have a real clever answer about the fox yet anyway, but I am still contemplating...   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 1:41 pm:        "But why did the author select a fox to teach love? There is no doubt that this did happen - I just don't understand why that character?" Well, I don't know exactly why either. I have some ideas though. A dog is traditionally thought of as a man's best friend. They have been domesticated to the point of depending on humans for food. However, in the story, the fox stole chickens from the humans to survive. He was a menace to people, but with the proper training and care, he could've been useful as a gaurd dog/fox perhaps. Thus, there is another element of love which we have not touched upon yet, and that is discipline. There is a discipline to love. The little prince lacked such discipline when he began his journey, and it is unknown who finally tames the little prince, because technically, he tames the fox and the pilot. Hmm...does the snake tame the little prince? Is death what finally completely breaks his will and re-establishes the ties with his rose? Just like the fox ends up letting the prince pet him, so the prince, in the end, lets the snake bite him. (Message edited by here_comes_sunshine on December 12, 2006)   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 94 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 8:52 pm:        Interesting points. Particularly, about the Prince allowing the snake to bite him. Also, perhaps the use of the fox relates to those whom we would not normally tame. Also, the fox makes a point to say that the hunters hunt the fox and the foxes hunt the chickens. There are hunters in the story and I've not really contemplated their roles. Of course all of this could just be my wanting to find these symbols and relate them to the Bible. What do you think? Are there are enough symbols represented or am I just wanting to see the symbols in the story. I know this that the author has been quoted saying something like many today miss the spiritual (I'm paraphrasing). Look at the sky Look up above In hope that your Prince appears. All that you've learned of life and love Is ringing joyfully in your ears. Listen to how the bells resound. The music will calm your fears. What you have lost And what you have found Will guide you through the years. Every sound Every chime Mends the heart. Makes it whole. Starlight bells Deep as wells Reach through time To heal the soul. The Little Prince's journey was a successful one. During it he learned to pull up the baobab trees, avoid pulling up the rose, learned to keep his volcanos clean (to me - and this is just to me - his volcanos is his past, his unfinished business). He didn't ignore them he addressed them daily. And the journey continued on and on and on. I like to think of his death as more symbolic than physical. But it is an opera and a story and it has to be portrayed that way.   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 96 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 9:46 pm:        Slightly off topic. Here is a scenario - since we have been talking about giving and in some cases giving all. Maybe you can explain how such a situation should be taken. Let's say someone tried to give money away to a specific cause but when the person got back from the place they were at - they had their donation plus some. This type of situation reminds me of the story of Joseph and his brothers and someone had put money back in the bag and then some. So how should a real life situation like this be interpreted? Nothing unethical at all about this. They really ended up with their donation and then some.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:38 am:        Well, that's an easy one I think, just pass on the extra to someone else in need. One time, when I was still living with my parents, I was so inspired by something I read in the bible, I can't remember exactly what verses, that I started to give away all of my clothing, except for what I absolutely needed. Well, what I do remember really well was the look on my mother's face as I made my way for the door with all of my name brand clothing in a sack for the good will. She about had a fit, because she had bought me everything! But, I had just gotten back from my trip, and I was getting ready to go back to college, and I saw I no longer had a need for so much stuff. I had spent most of the summer working at my church as an intern and actually living there sharing a bedroom with seven other girls sleeping in bunk beds. The girl who stayed in the bed under mine, had gone out shopping the first week we were there and had bought drawers, rugs, pictures, and all sorts of other things to decorate her space. I, on the other hand, was used to living out of a backpack, and I was sort of annoyed by such materialism. At the beginning of the summer, this same girl had wanted to study to be a school teacher, as she felt she possessed a special gift for teaching young children. But, by the end of the summer, she had decided she would be better off going to law school, so she could afford nice things. I didn't want to live like that, in pursuit of material gain. I wanted to rid myself of all the things that contributed to my vanity and materialism. However, out of respect for my mother, I kept some of the clothes I was about to give away. It may sound as if I am painting myself out to be some sort of a saint or something. So, for the record, that was not the case. Because, while I was backpacking, I had certainly lived the life of a sinner, and not of a saint. Materialism is just not a very big issue for me, as long as I have what I need to survive, that is all I care about. What is that verse? 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. I'm going to finish answering this question as I answer the next one about the little prince when I can...   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 3:44 pm:        "Of course all of this could just be my wanting to find these symbols and relate them to the Bible. What do you think? Are there are enough symbols represented or am I just wanting to see the symbols in the story." Well, Priceless, I think the fasinating thing about stories like these is that all different types of people from all sorts of spiritual beliefs and walks of life can find some common ground in the principles or parables represented in the symbolism of the fables. Now, that being said, I have to admit that I do think it is a stretch to try and completely identify it with the bible, or the gospel of the Messiah, and these are some of the reasons why: If the little prince represents Messiah, which I have a hard time with because of his character flaws in the beginning, and the rose is the body of Christ, then who is the fox and the pilot? Also, the snake may represent death, but not necessarily evil. I've been thinking a lot about being tamed though..,how the fox begged the prince to tame him, much like people begged Yahshua to heal them, and what it must be like to reveal your wretched condition, and allow him to touch you where it hurts the most, in your heart, and to be healed of it's infirmities. The twelve tribes call him Master. I like what that means because of how it's used. They obey his command to love one another as he loves them, and that includes giving up their lives in the world, which entails giving up ownership of all their possessions to be shared and distributed for the common good of the body. Comparing this to marriage makes it explainable to me, because like I said before, in a marriage two lives are joined together. For a family to function properly, each member must do his or her part to contribute for the well being of the whole, even financially. The body of Messiah is a family of believers and doers of God's will. How is it possible to be obedient to the master and follow his commands in the world, or in Christianity? It's like trying to make the story of the little prince into the message of the gospel. It gets too mystical...impossible to make a reality. However, there is a way to be tamed by Yahshua in the twelve tribes, and obey even his most difficult teachings for those that are willing. People say they are a cult, and all sorts of other negative things about them, but if they can't be saved by doing all that is commanded of believers, then who can?   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 6:50 pm:        Please understand - the Little Prince is more like a "type" not a direct symbol of the Messiah. Like a first Adam. Still even we as sinful men will die one day yet rule with Christ. Christ showed us how to die to ourselves. I've tried to make it clear that I don't think there is a completely direct correlation between the Little Prince and Christ. But it is the author's story of his life and how he learned spiritual lessons (I believe) and then tried to follow in Christ's footsteps. Regarding the scenario with the money. Yes, you are correct and that is similar to what my answer was to the scenario. People say they are a cult, and all sorts of other negative things about them, but if they can't be saved by doing all that is commanded of believers, then who can? Still by grace are you saved. So are you a member of the Twelve Tribes? Who can be give up and follow Christ? Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 863 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.15 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 7:23 pm:        Hey Priceless! Are you in the Air Force? Ive been to Mt.Home AFB. Oh, shunshine has her/his IP address cloaked. Could be TT!   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.110.72 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:14 pm:        "Please understand - the Little Prince is more like a "type" not a direct symbol of the Messiah. Like a first Adam." I can see how one could conclude such, and it makes the story more meaningful to look at it that way. Priceless, have you ever seen Charlottes Web? I bet you would really like the music and story of this classical tale as well. It is a story about salvation through friendship on a farm. I love it! I relate to Wilbur so well when he protests, "But, I don't want to die!" Then Charlotte comes to his rescue and gives everything she has got to save him, and a miracle appears in Charlottes web! Of course, the real miracle is her love for Wilbur to sacrifice her time and energy to save his life. In the last scene, while she is trying to make her egg sack, and is practically on her death bed, she is still trying to save Wilbur's life as she crafts her final message in the web for the county fair show. After her death, the narrator comments on how rare it is in life to find a friend who will lay down their life for you. It's sooo beautiful, just like the twelve tribe's way of life, just like Yahshua. No, I'm not a member of the twelve tribes... but my eternal destiny depends on my joining. It may sound silly, but I think I better take Yahshua's words seriously, and find a way to keep them, because you are right, with God all things are possible, even for me (and you too) to be saved by grace.   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 99 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:27 pm:        Nope . . . don't count that my ip shows my 'real' location. I'm not cloaked but most of this ips list server locations or something like that. I have never been in the armed services (and they probably wouldn't have taken me). My question on the TT was just that a question. I have learned to not always judge people by the label they go by because they may actually have different thoughts and beliefs. I do have a question about the mystical? What is it really? My problem is that I have ALWAYS had a huge imagination and I guess was bored when I was young (even though I did well in school) so I tend to look for spiritual things in our physical world. I tend to agree if you are saying that "mystical" means the occult. But one of the definitions of mystical in the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: 1 a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence <the> b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective communion with God . . . Now if we are talking about the God (big G) of the Bible then isn't this what the Little Prince is talking about? Anything essential is invisible to the eyes. (Message edited by Priceless on December 13, 2006)   priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:28 pm:        I've thought about Sunshines comment more and I still think that Antoine is at times comparing the relationship between his wife (the rose) and himself (the Little Prince) between Christ and the Bride of Christ. And why? This phrase: On the fate of that one rose Much greater things depend. This is something no grown-up can ever comprehend! Son 2:1 I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. From Darby's commentary: Son 2:1-17 - The first six Verses (omitting the second) of chapter 2 (Son_2:1; Son_2:3-6) appear to me to be the voice of the bride. They have been differently understood, but (I think) wrongly. Observe here that Christ is the apple-tree. This will help us afterwards. Moreover the bride speaks of herself. In theory she apprehends her relationship, and speaks chiefly of herself; but there is real affection. The Bridegroom will not allow her to be disturbed [1] when she rests with full confidence in His love. His own voice, the only one to which she now hearkens, shall waken her. He Himself tells her to arise, that the winter is past-the time of mourning and sorrow. He desires also to hear her voice. Thus her heart is re-assured: her Beloved is hers. How truly all this gives the awakening of divine affections and confidence in the remnant which had so long learned what it was to have Jehovah's face hidden, and how fully the inextinguishable love of Him who wept over Jerusalem is in the blessedest way in exercise to awaken this confidence and assure the heart of the afflicted people! It is to me singularly beautiful, not instruction as to circumstances nor in connection with responsibility, but grace-Christ's (Jehovah's) own relationship with Israel. And Barnes: The division of the chapters is unfortunate; Cant. 2 ought to have begun at Son_1:15, or Cant. 1 to have been continued to Son_2:7. The bride replies, “And I am like a lovely wild flower springing at the root of the stately forest-trees.” The majority of Christian fathers assigned this verse to the King (Christ). Hebrew commentators generally assign it to the bride. It is quite uncertain what flower is meant by the word rendered (here and Isa_35:1) “rose.” And Gill: Son 2:1 - I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. Whether Christ, or the church, is here speaking, is not certain: most of the Jewish writers (t), and some Christian interpreters (u), take them to be the words of the church, expressing the excellency of her grace, loveliness, and beauty, she had from Christ; and intimating also her being in the open fields, exposed to many dangers and enemies, and so needed his protection. The church may be compared to a "rose", for its beautiful colour and sweet odour (w), and for its delight in sunny places, where it thrives best, and is most fragrant. This figure is exceeding just; not only the beauty of women is expressed by the colour . . .   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.110.72 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:42 pm:        I can understand the symbolism with the prince and the rose, but what about the fox and the pilot? Who would they represent in the gospel message? Who did Christ tame? The disciples?   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.110.72 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:53 pm:        "Now if we are talking about the God (big G) of the Bible then isn't this what the Little Prince is talking about? Anything essential is invisible to the eyes." Good point! However, even invisible things cause visible effects. An example is the wind, which blows the wheat. The wind is invisible, but it produces an effect which you can see, and hear, and even feel as it raises up goose bumps on your skin. This is from Charlottes Web, Why is she spinning and weaving away all night long? What is she trying so hard to convey with her silent song? Sometimes when somebody loves you Miracles somehow appear And there in the warp and the woof is the proof of it Charlotte's web   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:55 pm:        Sunshine . . . it will come . . . it is slowly revealed. In the meantime, I thought you might enjoy this review of a young girl who came to a very similar conclusion as I did: (from - http://www.readingmatters.co.uk/book2.php?id=116) Kate, girl, age 16, from Virginia, Uzbekistan, on 5th June 2005. Rating: 10/10 I am currently reading Le Petit Prince in french class in its original version. i think it is truly an amazing book. Saint-Exupery is an excellent author. He has written the book so that it can be read either as a simple childhood tale or as an awe-inspiring and thought-provoking novel for readers who seek the deeper meaning. This book is full of symbolism, and I'm trying to find evidence from Exupery's biographies that he was a Christian, because there are many elements in this book that are obviously linked to the Bible. Then again, the symbolism in itself is truly enough evidence for me. Here's some of the allegorical examples I discovered... Is it really any coincidence that this small child is named the little prince? Jesus Christ is called the Prince of Peace who came to earth to die for us. Even the snake dares not harm because he is so innocent and sinless (think about how Satan takes the form of a snake in Adam & Eve, or how Satan tempts Jesus in the desert- yet again an element of Little Prince). "What is essential is invisible to the eyes," is definitely a Christian belief. Footprints in the sand is a theme present in the Bible, as is the water and the well, and our spiritual thirst for Jesus and faith. We are all children in God's eyes, and if we lose sight of what is important or so-to-speak become "grown-up" then we cannot possibly understand the miracles of life such as that of a simple flower. The flower even represents a sinner- God provides us with so many blessings.. shelter, water, love.. and still we continue to cough for our greed and for our pride to make ourselves feel important when we are truly so small and at the same time unfathomably important to Him. Possibly the most important theme is that of sacrifice. The little prince didn't have to die, he did it for his flower... just as Jesus did not have to die, but did sacrifice his life on earth so that we the sinful could have everlasting life with him. So when we look at the stars... the heavens... what do we see? A 'Little Prince' the Prince of Peace sitting up there watching over us and always with us each day when we believe.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:58 pm:        I have to tell you that there were 4 of us that went to see the opera. My dad was one of the individuals. At the first intermission, he looked at me and said, "don't waste your money on me again". I looked to my spouse and found that he was sleeping through the whole thing. So it was only myself and my child that were captivated by the opera. I guess we were the only children.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.110.72 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:59 pm:        The little prince's love brought him back to his rose. What originated from his heart, became a tangible reality, that is, to love his rose with his actions from the heart.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 103 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 11:33 pm:        OK - let's look at the Hunters and see if they give any clue to the fox. Again, credit goes to Nicholas Wright: The hunters (Pharisees) obey the rules (law) of the days On Thursday every fox escapes To roam the vineyard eating grapes (reference to Son 2:15) The chickens wander half-adream The ducklings learn to swim in the millstream And peace decends upon our flocks For that's the day on which nobody hunts the fox. This is what Gill says in his commentary: Son 2:15 - Take us the foxes,.... Of which there were great numbers in Judea; see Jdg_15:4; these words are directed not to angels, nor to civil magistrates, but to ministers of the word; but whether the words of Christ, or the church, is not easy to determine; some think they are the words of the church, who had hitherto been relating what Christ said to her, and who, having neglected her vineyard, Son_1:6; and now stirred up by Christ to a greater care of it, expresses her concern for its flourishing; and therefore calls upon her attendants and companions, to assist in taking and destroying those which were harmful to it: but rather they seem to be the words of Christ continued; since they not only show the care of his vines, the churches; but express power and authority over those they are spoken to: and perhaps they may be the words of them both jointly; since the church, with Christ, and under him, has a right to stir up her officers to do their work, and fulfil their ministry, they have received of Christ for her service. Yet the commentator continues on and states that this could also refer to false teachers . . . perhaps Antoine was of the opinion which is stated above.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 11:39 pm:        The little prince's love brought him back to his rose. What originated from his heart, became a tangible reality, that is, to love his rose with his actions from the heart. Yes, I suppose that is how much of reality happens. That's why the seeds and the type of seeds in our heart are so important. Got to pull out those baobabs!   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:05 am:        So, the pilot is the gentiles?   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:57 am:        So what about the sheep?   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 8:00 am:        Well, I've always thought this was part that was more of a symbol of Jesus telling us to become as a child. The pilot is the grown-up prince. Again, the symbolism is not an apples to applies symbolism that you see more in the Narnia series. I'm not sure if CS Lewis put himself in his stories? Do you know? I see Antoine's method to be different than CS Lewis. CS Lewis said - ok, what would the world be like if Christ came to save the whole animal world? He would come to earth as one of them - thus the Lion. The Lion is pretty much an apple to apple symbolism although you might not always consider him to be perfect - depending on how you view his actions. But we know that it is our view of the actions that is not perfect so yet the Lion is to be considered perfect in these stories. Still, one could read "A Boy and His Horse" and wonder about the Lion's methods of "taming" the hero. He was pretty aggressive. The sheep - I've thought perhaps this is a sacrifice or something. Honestly, I haven't worked it out. I find the Narnia symbolism much easier to work out. I think Antoine purposely makes his symbolism harder to work out to demonstrate the major theme in his work. Anything essential is invisible to the eye. Perhaps the sheep also brings memory of the "law" and the Little Prince is concerned that the "law" will eat the rose. I can see how that could be true. If the rose thinks on the law and cannot see grace then the law might indeed need a muzzle in the sense of having Christ fulfill the law.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 106 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 8:02 am:        Remember in the story? The sheep had to be just perfect. This one was too old, this one was too sick. So yes, perhaps it is to represent the lamb sacrifice.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 9:00 am:        priceless, I was reading over some of my posts last night, and I think maybe I am not being very clear. Like the author of the little prince, I sometimes use stories, or metaphores, to explain ideas, but sometimes I go off on tangents and don't get my point across very well. My point is this, the true gospel is a call to forsake everything for the love of God, and when this gospel is really obeyed, it creates real community like that in Acts and the twelve tribes. It is impossible to meet the demands of the savior apart from such a life. Me giving away my clothes and you supporting some evangelist is not going to bring about God's will, His witness of His love reaching the ends of the earth will. ...I may not be back online until after the weekend. Think about it!   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 866 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.202 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 9:15 am:        "Bring about God's will" So His will wont be done unless we or someone else does it? hmmmmmm....   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 9:27 pm:        Sunshine, I'm sorry, I see nothing in the gospel that says give up everything you have and join the Twelve Tribes or like community. What I see is God came to earth and died as the sacrificial lamb for myself and others who will believe him. At this point, once I believe, I am to begin my journey in following Him and Him alone. I am not to follow any man, any community but Him. I can fellowship with other believers in my community but still even in this I must follow Christ. So everything I am, everything I have, everything I do belongs to Christ - these things do not belong to other believers. When I understand this (and this for me at least is still occurring and long after my understanding that He died for my sins)then everything I own, everything I do, all of my talents should be used with the understanding that they are not mine but Christs. This is how the parable of the Good Steward works in relation to this. And if you will look at this parable - there are different levels or success in doing this. I agree that I'm not at the most successful level yet because of trust issues but I do invest in my own abilities, I do invest in ministries, I do give to the poor, I do give to the community. Yet - God has placed me as the steward of what passes through my hands. Can I be a better steward? You bet. But I strongly see Christ explanation of the gospel as giving everything to Him and not to a community. Now it is true that Christ said: Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. How do you know that I don't do these things? Because I'm not in the Twelve Tribes community? That is a bit judgmental if you ask me. OK, I admit that I need to visit the sick more and I don't visit prisons but I can work on that outside of the Twelve Tribes. But I will say that overall, I try to do these things; however, I also have stewardship over my child. If I see someone on the side of the road that needs help, I may not stop to help them because it is not always safe nowadays to do so but that doesn't mean that I cannot call the police for them so that they can have help. What occurred in Acts was a choice made by the people and not a command of Christ because Christ commanded them to give all up to HIM. Am I still being sanctified in this - you bet!   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 108 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:38 pm:        Also, someone not really related but if I were to every join the 12 Tribes it would be bad stewardship to put me in the kitchen.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.69.193 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:42 pm:        Priceless, I don't even know where to begin, so how about a story... I once knew a young lady who was dying with cancer. Unfortunately, she died a horribly death, I watched it. It was obvious that she was dying, yet she did not know it, and neither did her family. Her mother sat there so composed, and I just wanted to tell her to hold her daughter because she was dying. But, the family had asked not to be told that she was dying. They didn't want to accept it, but that didn't stop it. I respected their request, but to this day I don't know if it was the right thing or not. I woke up this morning thinking of her, and wishing again I had told her mother to hold her as she was drawing her last breathes...   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.69.43 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:52 pm:        My point is this... I believe what I believe only because those who have the authority to proclaim the gospel Yahshua preached told me so. They have authority to preach this gospel because they have fully obeyed it, and their life of love and unity is a witness to our creator's love and purpose for us. It's good news to me, but if it reeks of death to you, then I will not try and tell you different.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.69.43 Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:58 pm:        Luke 14:33 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:10 am:        Ah, this is where we differ. You want to give up everything to men (at least that's the way I am seeing it). But Christ was clear - give up everything and follow HIM - not any man, not any authority even if they have fully obeyed the gospel. I am to respect those who have spiritual authority to me but the All that I give is to the Lord first. I'll be honest with you too - if it was about giving up to men that have lived as you are indicating above - I would really like to give to a certain minister of a church in the Orlando area; however, right now - I just don't feel that I can and also I do not feel that the Lord is pushing me to do that. What I do feel that the Lord is pushing is get yourself into a position where you can be a better steward. Now a while back I felt that he was leading me to step out and do something that I felt would be difficult but I did it. Could I have interpreted this wrong? Perhaps but I still believe God knows that I am trying to obey Him even when I get it wrong. However, it's not just about obedience. I truly wanted to give but I was afraid that I would be taken advantage of. Still the desire to give was there. I was actually held back from God from giving more at first I believe. I think all of this was to help me learn to here His voice and His conviction because again it is His money. I'm ok with all this because I am convinced that God is teaching me both: giving up everything in my life to follow him and stewardship. I do not believe you can teach one without the other for a full understanding of what God has said in His word. 2Co 8:5 And this they did (here they were giving to the ministers of the Gospel), not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God. That verse explains exactly what I was saying - everything you are or have is Christs not any group or man!!! Like it or not the parable of the talents is in the Bible and it directly relates to money. A "talent" is money. God expects a return on what he gives us so we need to let it "pass" through our hands by realizing it is his (this is giving all that we have) and the example in Matt 25:16 says that we are to trade what is given (as in investing because we are to make a return on what was traded). Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. I have to reconcile these two examples from Christ. And I do that by realizing that I have nothing and everything that passes through my hands are Christ's and he expects me to trade and invest as well as give as directed in Matt 25. Also stewardship is demonstrated here: 2Co 8:14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: 2Co 8:15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack. It is not giving all that was Christ's to begin with that is passing through your hand because there is a supply for not only your needs but your wants - their needs and their wants (of course keeping in mind that you have given ownership to the Lord to begin with). No one has told me in the group that I worship with that they have needs that I haven't worked to remedy the situation. And I don't see that I have excess by any means. (Message edited by Priceless on December 15, 2006)   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:11 am:        And going forward in Corinthians: 2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. How can I sow if I have given up stewardship of what God places in my hand to another (which is what I see you requiring and this is different than giving up all in your life - money, ownership, etc. to Christ)? I don't mean to make you mad but I feel that I must stand for what I see the Word of God is saying. I do not see this as death but the truth of the Word of God. (Message edited by Priceless on December 15, 2006)   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:32 am:        I believe what I believe only because those who have the authority to proclaim the gospel Yahshua preached told me so. I believe what I believe because God came to earth to die for me - such an imperfect sinner! And he gave me authority to preach the Gospel! Are we not all lamplighters that believe the Gospel of Christ? If we are called to die to self are we not all expected to tell others of the Gospel? Here is the Gospel of Jesus Christ: Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin. We were born under the power of sin's control. - Admit that you are a sinner. Romans 6:23a "...The wages of sin is death..." Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin. But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity. The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever. It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain. - Understand that you deserve death for your sin. Romans 6:23b "...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Salvation is a free gift from God to you! You can't earn this gift, but you must reach out and receive it. - Ask God to forgive you and save you. Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!" When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life. He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us! - Give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin. His love is what saves you -- not religion, or church membership. God loves you! Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!" - Call out to God in the name of Jesus! Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." - If you know that God is knocking on your heart's door, ask Him to come into your heart. Jesus said, Revelation 3:20a "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..." - Is Jesus knocking on your heart's door?   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:57 am:        Priceless, You are not making me mad, it's just that I have had this conversation many times on this baord. The spirit of Yahshua lives in his people, they are his body and he is their head. If what you are saying is correct, then I guess the church in Acts had it all wrong, and they needed someone like you to help explain it to them better, and remind them of the parable of the talents, and encourage them to be better stewarts. We do disagree. What if I give up my life, leave my home, and loose everything. Yahshua better save me! Mark 10:26-30 (New International Version) 26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?" 27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." 28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!" 29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. That remains to be seen... or I guess it will be invisible so you can be sure you will see the manifestation. I don't think it would be very just of Yahshua to ask of me the samething he ask of the rich young ruler and all of his disciples if it wasn't what he wanted and what I should do to inherit eternal life. I've just got to trust him. The twelve tribes could just be a group of people that have no power to be seek and save the lost, unless they have Yahshua in their hearts. They have taught me everything I know about God's character, our lives, and his desire, and an age to come. If they are liers, why does everything they say sound true? It's a mystery...kind of like the little prince. The pilot is something special to the little prince because he draws the picture of the lamb for him and he gives him the drink of water from the well. Maybe he's like a father to the little prince even though he himself is like a child.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 71 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 1:10 am:        Priceless, No, I hear Yahshua knocking on my heart's door. Not Jesus. I can't explain it, it can't be brainwashing though, because it's in my heart.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 113 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 7:35 pm:        Sunshine, I'm not particularly found of the NIV because it is based off manuscripts that don't even agree with each other and one of these manuscripts included like the Shepherd of Hermes, etc. Now I'm not saying that some people don't find the NIV clearer in some cases, I just don't believe that it is based on superior texts. So please understand that I am using the King James because the only NIV I have (I think) is at work and it is on my desk because it is a leadership Bible and has good information for work. Let's go through the scripture step by step: The man said: Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Here the man is saying what can I do to WORK to obtain eternal life. His question was faulty to begin with. Again, when I die and go to heaven these verses will be somewhat attached to me because this is how I learned of God's saving grace - through the Word of God along. No man, no one trying to teach me but the Holy Spirit, in my car by myself teaching me how one is really saved. See I was asking the same question except unlike the young ruler I was past thinking I could be good enough. But the young man wasn't so Christ corrects him by stating: Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. In otherwords, if you call me good, do you realize I am God? . . . . The young man goes on trying to prove that he has upheld the whole law but he was wrong and Christ has to point this out to him. Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. In otherwords, ok you didn't hear what I said earlier that there is none good except God so if you want to try to fulfill the law, give up everything that you will have treasure in heaven - which is the Kingdom of God. And of course the young man couldn't do this because he was not God. There is only one good - remember and that is God. (Why can't people see these points in this scripture?) And since he was not God he went away sad because he was still trying to work his way to heaven. Of course at this point the disciples didn't understand this story either because they marveled at how this man couldn't do it. So Christ says: Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 7:37 pm:        The matter is who are you going to believe in the riches in your possession or Christ. The matter with the rich young man wasn't the fact that he didn't give up his possessions but the fact that he didn't trust Jesus when he was at that point of realizing he was God (because he was good). So the disciples are saying . . . who then can be saved? Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Jesus is saying that yes indeed a rich man can be saved if God does the work. He is not saying that if you don't give up everything that you cannot be saved. He is making the point again - that he made earlier to the rich young ruler that you folks are not God and you cannot save yourself. Then they all start saying - we left everything and followed you and Christ promises them that they will have hundred fold in the world to come. He DOES NOT promise them that they will gain salvation for their works. He states that the first will be last and the last first. This is an order of ranking that would even indicate that some will be saved in spite of the fact that they did not succeed in such a WORK. Again, this infers that Christ does the saving. You can make a statement like "What if I give up my life, leave my home, and loose everything. Yahshua better save me!" but this goes directly against: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 115 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 8:18 pm:        Mark 8 - what is being discussed? Again, Christ is trying to get them to understand that He is God. Mar 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. He begins to teach them that He will have to suffer many things as foretold in the scriptures. Peter is trying to put Himself above God by rebuking God. (I love Peter, he is so human and look how God refined his heart!) So the issue again is who is God. Peter still didn't get it. A pure lamb had to be slain to cover our sins. And Peter was going to try to stop this because he thought he knew better? Christ realizes that satan has tempted Peter through his love for the physical appearance of Christ and rebukes satan! Gee maybe Peter is the fox and Christ has to tame him so that he will remember the wheatfields. Christ then teaches: Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Whatever your cross is, whatever I require you to go through, deny yourself as the god of your life and follow me. Can this denial mean physical things - sure. However, it does not mean to give up your stewardship of what Christ has given you because Christ taught on this also. Again, the main point of these passages of verses is spelled out in verse 38: Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Again, this again is referring to placing Christ as God in all matters, if he places you in possession of His goods to be stewards of his possessions, do this job. But the bottom line is (as earlier stated in the passages of scriptures) if I call you to "physically" lay down your life, not as a pure lamb but as a statement because you will not deny me . . . you better do this. Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Even if you are allowed to live and even if you could come into possession of the whole world without Christ as the head of your life, what good does it do if you lose your soul. What good does it do if you give everything up to try to work your way to heaven if you do not realize that the only way you can do this is except me as your God and allow me to perform this work in you! I cannot stress the following too much: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 8:21 pm:        They have taught me everything I know about God's character, our lives, and his desire, and an age to come. If they are liers, why does everything they say sound true? I never said that they are liars - all I am saying that God's word does not lie and His word says: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 11:40 pm:        I guess what I'm saying if that anyone, TT or other, first gives their heart to God and believes that He is God, then it is God that does the work in them to do work like giving all and living in a group like in Acts and in the TT. However, if the TT is telling you that this is what you have to do to be saved then I believe the Bible states otherwise and I have sited verses indicating that. You know the truth is that I don't have an undershepherd or an authority figure in my life that really even touches finances or giving accept very, very lightly. However, I don't have to have anyone to specifically tell me. I have the Word of God to guide me and I do try to listen to others on the radio to help me understand things that I may be missing or that I'm not taught by those in authority over me. I guess the simple problem that I have is with all of this is it sounds like the TT is making giving all a requirement for salvation or at the very least a fruit of proof that one is saved. Because of the example of the talents (which I earlier indicated includes money because a talent is money although I believe this includes other things) and the fact that it is by the grace of God that we are saved, I have a problem with that. But this conversation has been helpful. It has brought me to understand even more than before how important it is for me to become a good steward. Walk Thru the Bible has a series called the Genius of Generosity - you can access the notes to this study at: http://www.walkthru.org/site/PageServer?pagename=loteDownloads • Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Luke 6:38 – Jesus You know sometimes He gives back to you physically so you can continue giving and sometimes He gives back to you another way. I know that I followed what I felt God wanted me to do recently and by doing this I believe much of the mental anguish that I had been suffering has been relieved. • 9Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; 10then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine. Proverbs 3:9-10 - Solomon I had a dream once that I was on a scavenger hunt and there was a barn and anyway I won the hunt and received a big car. That was a very interesting dream. I had another interesting one the other night. And in this dream I didn't win anything but I was put in a position where I had to wear designer clothes. ??? It was kinda funny. I can't remember it all but I was at some big group get together and I think there were booths and displays and I had never attended this event before and it had something to do with water because I vaguely remember that there were boats and that there was even a water park in the back of the scene. The scene was like this: In the front was a broad horizontal section that had stores and shops, etc. For some reason my son would only hang out in this area. He was running around in his own little world captivated by his own imagination and he probably didn't even really see the stores most of the time. Then behind this section was a narrower (yet not really section that at first was flat and on the same level as the second section and I walked through a few times at first (here's the deal - during most of this dream I was walking around naked). Now I was aware that I was naked and it vaguely annoyed me but I was more focused on something else so I just kept going and it didn't seem that those around me really where concerned about this at first.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 119 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 11:42 pm:        Right behind this section was a registration area. I didn't register at first (and I think there were boats to the sides of this section) and at this time I noticed that there was something behind this section. So, I go back to the front where my son is running around in his own imaginary world and I try to get him to go back with me to the other section and he didn't seem to notice that I was naked either. He just said something like, "can't I play a little longer?" So I go back into the next section but it was no longer ground level and their was this inflatable incline that went very high (actually there were two of these). So I went up the incline on the left and then past the registration area and found a water park. I spent some time there and enjoyed it and then I went back to the registration table and I believe I registered this time. After this I returned to the front up the other inflatable incline - tried to catch my son and told him - why don't you go to the water park. You will enjoy it? I really don't think he went because he was still playing but knowing him and his desire to be in the water - he was probably headed that way except there was a distraction. This distraction was my boss who came out from no where and telling me that I was naked and that I should do something about it. My boss seemed to have qualities of my mother and was on a mission to get me dressed. So we went to a store or two and what we found out that there were a number of stores but they were not really clothing stores. So here I am walking around naked and probably more aware of it now. Finally, someone points us to this store and when we get there it is a designer clothing store. And I'm thinking, this is going to cost some. And there seemed to be a personal sales people that you got and I just kept trying to get away from them so I could browse. But before this, I remember going up an elevator and there were sweaters and my boss said here is a pink sweater why don't you get it. And I remember saying because I don't wear pink, I'm an autumn - that is a light pink and I don't look good in anything but the dark pinks. (This is probably a flashback to my mother because right before she died she insisted in buying me a powder pink sweater because she had bought me a gray sweatsuit with pink stripes. We went to a store so she could find this sweater and I said, I can't wear pink and she said something like, oh yes you can.) Anyway, I think this time I was able to convince my boss that I didn't need to have a pink sweater and I think we settled on something that was more of a teal color with some really fancy jeans. Then we went to a different section and there was a semi circle of salespeople and I walked quickly by them all and said something like, "I don't know how they make a living." And a sales lady said, "oh, I do very, very fine. You would be surprised." And then we seemed to go back down to where my son was and that's all that I can remember. I didn't write this down right away so I may have some details off. Oh, and the inflatable inclines were white. Maybe just something I ate - don't know.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 120 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 12:06 pm:        Anyway, all this conversation does is bring me back to why I got so depressed when our conversation first began. It seems like I have this demon that constantly haunts (hunts me - like the hunters) trying to put me under the law and place my salvation on my works and acts. So maybe the fox is a form of myself and when I allow Christ to touch me with His grace then I can become tamed and it is only then that I can really become sanctified and remotely try to live a life of obedience. Not because of myself or even to save myself but because I belong to Him. So he touches me and now I can see the wheatfields and have them to remind me of Him. satan also tries to push me under the law through those who are allowing his words to come through them. Often they don't realize that they are doing this; however, there are a few on other threads that are indeed doing this and are blind and they cannot see it. So I just have learned to pray "God, let them see what they are doing". Funny thing is later that day, they ask another post what that person prayed or sent out against them. Maybe that other person was saying the same prayer too! Or maybe this person doesn't realize that I am sitting back watching and praying. Here's the way I see it. We can use the words that we speak for good or evil. At times in our lives we may not fully understand this. So when I first came across this thread, what I was hearing was like the voice of the "accuser" trying to place me back under the law. You can't go back and you can't listen to those voices whereever they are coming from. The law is death unless there is a sacrifice so if you take Jesus out of the equation and His grace of salvation, to me you are going back under the law. That in itself is enough to make a person go crazy and I will not allow that anymore. Giving up everything I have as a means to salvation and not as God's grace working through me in a form of stewardship to me is putting me back under the law. I will not have it. I don't know why satan has worked so hard on me this year and even the past few years to put me back in the classroom but IT IS OVER!!! Remember, I walked out of the classroom and my father gave me grace. My prince has come, touched me and is taming me and He is reconciling His rose to himself.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 6:25 pm:        Hi Priceless, I'm having a hard time knowing what to say to you. To me, you are naked, thinking you are covered. I'm naked too, and I'm cold, I'm hungry, and I'm tired. I think I'm about ready to surrender. But, I can't, until I receive grace to have the faith to obey the commands of Yahshua who is worthy of everything I have. So, I'm waiting for my prince to come and touch me, and tame me, and reconcile me with his rose unto his father.   doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1431 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.251.40.98 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 8:43 pm:        Sunshine No, I hear Yahshua knocking on my heart's door. Not Jesus. I can't explain it, it can't be brainwashing though, because it's in my heart. If you really believe that you are very susceptible to deception and that is one of them. So, I'm waiting for my prince to come and touch me, and tame me, and reconcile me with his rose unto his father. What are you waiting for? If you feel guilty for preaching the TT teachings and not joining them why don't you just be honest with your self? Either you don't believe it or you are too selfish or perhaps both.   beenthereonehat New member Username: beenthereonehat Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.225.234 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 9:01 pm:        Sunshine must also understand that her decision or waffling to not give up everything and join them is, in the TT doctine, equal to having heard the truth and rejected it therefor sending her to the lake of fire for all eternity.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 125 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 11:35 pm:        In my dream, I knew the whole time that I was naked. I never thought I was covered. However, this relates probably to the "cloaking" comment made by Nab earlier in the conversation and it somehow made its way into my dream. I have often said that I am pretty transparent - not always but I tend to be that way. So the nakedness is not related to covering. Sunshine, may I suggest that you are like the rich young ruler at this moment? Why are you trying to work to receive grace? Why don't you hear the master when he is trying to point the rich young ruler away from his question - Master what else do I need to do to become perfect? Why don't you see that Jesus is saying "don't you know I am God?" If you believe that I'm God then believe that all things are possible through me. (This of course came later to the disciples but a record was left for us.) Quit trying to save yourself!!!! You will never make it and you will go crazy trying to!!! I have understood this for a long time yet even though I accept the gift of God's grace - I still think that I need lashings! That is just as wrong! Just accept it. God died for the sins of your past, the sins of today, and your sins tomorrow. He doesn't go back to the cross everytime you sin. He did it! It is finished. You will never be completely tamed until you see him face to face! 2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. It's a process sunshine. Step by step, glory to glory. You are not the perfect one and neither is anyone in the TT. All you have to do is believe, yield yourself to the Prince, and let him do the job of sanctification knowing that you will not be there completely until you see Him face to face but that His blood has already been shed as a sacrifice for your sins. Don't do as the rich young man did and walk away because he was still depending on his own ability to overcome his weaknesses. Do you truly think Christ is good? If so don't you know that there is only one that is good and that is God? So say this to God (not to the TT): Ok, I believe you are God. Everything that is mine I give to you to reconcile to yourself. Even when I mess up as a steward, I realize that nothing can separate me from your love and that you can use my mistakes for good.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 126 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 11:36 pm:        From Gill: 2Pe 3:18 - But grow in grace,.... In the gifts of grace, which, under a divine blessing, may be increased by using them: gifts neglected decrease, but stirred up and used, are improved and increase. And though men are to be thankful for their gifts, and be contented with them, yet they may lawfully desire more, and in the use of means seek an increase of them, which may be a means of preserving themselves, and others, from the error of the wicked. Moreover, by "grace" may be meant internal grace. The work of grace is gradual; it is like a grain of mustard seed, or like seed cast into the earth, which springs up, it is not known how, first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear; saints are first babes, and from children they grow to young men, and from young men to fathers. There is such a thing as growth in grace, in this sense; every grace, as to its act and exercise, is capable of growing and increasing; faith may grow exceedingly, hope abound, love increase, and patience have its perfect work, and saints may grow more humble, holy, and self-denying: this is indeed God's work, to cause them to grow, and it is owing to his grace; yet saint, should show a concern for this, and make use of means which God owns and blesses for this purpose, such as prayer, attending on the word, and looking over the promises of God, for an increase of faith; recollecting past experiences, and looking to the death and resurrection of Christ for the encouragement of hope, and to the love of God and Christ, for the stirring up of love to both, and to the saints; considering the sufferings of Christ, the desert of sin, and the glories of another world, to promote patience and self-denial, and the pattern of Christ, to excite to humility; though "grace" may also intend the Gospel, the knowledge of which is imperfect, and may be increased in the use of means, and which is a special preservative against error, a growth in which saints should be concerned for. . .   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 128 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 11:44 pm:        Sunshine, well I always throw those dreams out not because I expect anyone to really understand them (although occasionally I have been blessed by what others have said to me and they have helped me understand them). I will say this here and now - perhaps it might be in reference to a certain type of covering or me submitting myself more to God as a covering but there is no doubt in my mind that I am saved and going through a sanctification process. I just need to stay around the water park. Quite honestly, it's probably a little nervey for me to do so because dreams can be brutally honest and sometimes I throw something out without realizing what the dream is about and I can be a little embarrassed about this later down the road. But ultimately I'm a pretty transparent person and that's what I think it is referring to in the dream (at least a bit) about being naked. Factnet to me has been part of this journey in which I've probably become more naked every day. Even if I try to dress myself or cover myself up the real me pretty much comes out because I can't disguise it. I think the designer clothes is a metaphor (God does speak this way) for Designer (as in He is the designer) clothing. There have been times on Factnet and other places that I realize that I'm very naked but I'm too busy to spend much time on it (the vague reference) because I'm on a mission trying to get somewhere in my journey. The boss was me (albeit in this instance the part of me that I apparently relate to my mother). This part of me is trying to get me to wear what may look good on others but I know doesn't really look good on me - the pink. Now in real life I know that I can wear some pinks but generally as a shade - this is one that I will stay away from. If it is a dark or muted pink then great but better yet a coral or peach or orange for me. But coral and peach are not necessarily royal colors and apparently my designer wants me to wear something that is a deep royal shade that reflects me. Blue generally reflects royalty but my nature is more of a green nature and I would say that green is indeed my favorite color so we end up with a deep teal. It's not so much about the color but about the color fitting me and reflecting who I really am (I think). It's one thing to run around Factnet transparent but eventually you have to take on your Father's characteristics and get past your history, etc. The son is very interesting because this son in my dream is somewhat directly my son - his creativity, living in an imaginary land; however, I think in my dreams my son represents my ministry. My real son is a reflection of my ministry in a way I believe. And I think God does things like that on purpose. Do you know how many books that my son has actually started? More than I would have ever tried. I never really wrote mine down - but my head was always full of them. I was too busy running around in the front of the scene with my imagination like the son in my dream. I think the son in my dream needs to make it to the water park but I guess he/I needs designer clothing first.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 3:48 pm:        Priceless, You say some interesting things, I wish I had more time to write to you. Since you feel no shame in your transparentness, I'm going to ask you about something rather personal. You said you were making plans to end your life. I don't believe you just had a bad moment, or an anxiety attack, I think you were serious. What has changed since then?   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 5:29 pm:        Also, on a lighter note, it's not that hard to cook if somebody shows you how. My first batch of banana bread I didn't even know the difference between baking soda and baking powder! It works out much better when you have a teacher and not just a book. I think that concept applies pretty much across the board.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 129 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 7:19 pm:        I never said that I didn't feel shame about my transparetness in fact I said it was vaguely annoying. So yes, it does bother me but the deal is there are more important things than my shame and even my nakedness. You know - one can run and try to hide in the garden but eventually you are going to have to let God dress you in designer clothing or live in shame. So what's it going to be? There is no life in shame. When I found myself making plans it was because I was allowing satan to manipulate events around me or allowing him to convince me that the events that I say in my daily life where something that they were not. satan has been trying harder than ever in my life to throw me back under the law. He knows that intellectually he can't get me there but if he can get my eyes off of Jesus and onto my nakedness and inability to fulfill the law (and trying to get me to forget that the law has already been fulfilled by Christ) - then he can drive me literally crazy to the point of deep depression. If I get to that point (as you witnessed), I have two choices, in despair go under the law which brings death and thus suicide because one can never be good enough or have faith that regardless of what I can see right now - God is in control and it is by FAITH that I am saved. So if the young man had just taken a stop of faith saying, OK, yes your God. I don't know if I can give up all and follow you but I will at least follow you and let you help me give up all (through your sanctification process) then he would have really believed. satan was trying to get me to draw back (and we are not of those that draw back). When you draw back, you no longer believe that God is in charge and that he can take care of everything. Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Yet on this board I was hearing (at least my perspective) that I had to become perfect but I can't be perfect or complete until I see Him face to face. Somewhere else, I was trying to follow God and was getting confused because satan was having me interpret what someone was saying (and maybe not really even to me)incorrectly. So again, in this instance the message I was getting was "you are not good enough". Combine this with a real life father who was critical and what you get is one big mental case. But psychology couldn't help me. The only thing that could help me is faith in Christ. I had to rise above all that was occurring and walk by faith - not by sight. God was walking beside me and he lifted me out of that pit and basically, I got to the point (and I pray that I stay there) that I will not listen to the voice that tells me that I'm failing and not good enough or accuse me of this and that. Instead, I'll just hold on to the faith that I had when I heard the story of the rich young man for the very first time when I realized that I didn't have to be good enough on my own - God was the one who would take care of this and I just needed to believe.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 130 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 7:20 pm:        You are probably right about the cooking thing. The kitchen was pretty much off limits to me. I don't know why. And I didn't have a natural interest so I didn't push it. I believe my mom would have encouraged it if I had really had a natural interest. I'm pretty determined, I could probably really succeed in this if I felt that this is where God wanted me to spend my time. In college it wasn't an issue because, we were always grabbing a quick bite. And then later on, I married someone who really likes to cook so far be it from me to take away that joy from someone else! I also have a male cousin who went to culinary school so I totally believe in equality in the kitchen for those who have an interest!   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 7:43 pm:        Now if I needed to cook - I could figure it out. But trust me, my spouse wants me out in the business world. I've suggested the other a time or two and he is against me being a housewife.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 8:57 pm:        I didn't know if you saw this on the other thread. I think I had the Little Prince crashing in a French pastry LOL! The author of The Little Prince crashed in the dessert and after a few days found himself hallucinating. In fact, it was in this dessert that he befriended the fox (thus the real reason for the fox in the story - the meaning of the symbol of the fox is irrelevant because the fox was a reality for him and was something he tamed in the dessert).   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 10:36 pm:        Priceless, My husband has taught me everything I know about cooking! Of course, he still out shines me in the kitchen any day. But, it is funny, sometimes now when we go to a party or something, and I make a dish, everyone still tells him how good it is! He does really enjoy cooking though, but for the time being, I am our household cook. I'm still pondering your answer to my question...   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 4:25 pm:        Priceless, I had the most ironic dream last night, and I thought I would share it with you. I got picked up by the police for loitering at a bus stop! I was only vaguely annoyed that I had been waiting on my bus for so long, but the next thing I knew the cops were coming to take me away. I thought maybe they would be sympathetic to the fact that I was at the right bus stop, but my bus was extremely late, and perhaps give me a lift to where it was I was trying to get to, which was something for my children, but that was not the case. I know this dream pertains to my joining the twelve tribes, because I had the same notion of "how long am I going to have to wait to get there." Luckily, this was the kind of dream you get to do over, so the next time, I got to the place I was going another way, and I actually ended up arriving early. I don't remember much about my final destination, just that it was a home, and there was a bedroom there for the children, and though there were not too many people there yet, one of my friends was there and she was pregnant. Hence, the road that leads to life is narrow and few even find it. When I read your answer to my question, it brought to my mind a moment I had a few years ago. I was struggling with sin in my life, and I would read the bible, and I could not find any hope in it, but only condemnation clearly spelled out for me. I remember looking up out my window and staring at a mobile made from cross sections of a rock containing colorful minerals, and as I watching the light shining through the different colors, I sensed that I was transparent like those minerals, and if only light would just shine on me, my heart's desire would be realized, and the finished product delivered of savation from my sins and freedom from death. But, as I lay there on the floor, feeling only the gravity of the forces of darkness, I prayed for something stronger to rescue me. This is a quote from a teaching of the twelve tribes that relates to the essential thing we have been talking about. "Whatever shines of itself, is light, for it is light that makes everything visible and everything expressed by the light becomes visible. Everything can be tested by the light and thus be shown in its true colors. Everything that becomes visible is light." It is surely the work of the devil to slander and accuse, tempt and deceive, and keep us in darkness as every sin committed makes one a servant of sin. We know it is our adversary's desire to destroy us, but what is our creator's desire? To give us life in him?   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 4:29 pm:        1 John 3:16-26 16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. Priceless, God does ask something of us, and maybe it's not necessarily perfection as much as it is perfect love accomplished by the bond of his spirit. Maybe when we are brought to our end, we can seek Yahshua's end, a bride made ready for him, to fulfill his purpose. The following article has really shed light on that for me. Would you please read it, and see if you can see what I do, which is not the law which brings death, but grace leading to the light of life. Thank you. http://www.twelvetribes.com/publications/black-box/city-on-hill.html   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 136 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 9:55 pm:        Sunshine, we may both be getting at the same things from different directions. I'm content that God can and will finish His good work in me because I am willing to let him do that because I recognize that He is God. I could try to take the position of God away from him but that would get me know where. Still it is an intricate dance between my free will and His sovereignty. I don't understand it all but I do trust and believe Jesus to finish His work in me.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.110.72 Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 10:51 pm:        Priceless, We may be coming from the same direction, but getting at something completely different all together. I don't understand it all either, but I've got to trust Yahshua for everything he said and did was to bring about the fulfillment of what was in His Father's heart as expressed in the Law and the Prophets: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18) Heaven and earth have not yet passed away, [6] so clearly all has not been accomplished. Contrary to the opinions of many, Messiah's life, death, and resurrection did not fulfill all that is in the Law and the Prophets. It remains for His Body on earth -- His bride, [7] His suitable helper [8] -- to fulfill all things that remain to be fulfilled. [9] He cannot return until she does. [6] Revelation 21:1 [7] Ephesians 5:23-32 [8] Genesis 2:18 [9] Romans 8:4   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 137 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 7:55 am:        Well, all I know sunshine is that the Holy Spirit inside of me is telling me (now - at this present moment - not a week ago or more, etc.) that I'm on the right track and determined (even when vaguely annoyed) to get there. (And by this I'm referring to allow Christ's sancification process to occur in my life.) I disagree with you though. In Matthew 5:17-18 Christ specifically states that HE came to fulfill the law - not His bride. I also agree that the law should not be abolished. It has a purpose and that purpose is to point to Him by showing mankind that they need a savior. And I also disagree with you that He cannot return - He already did in the person of the Holy Spirit. They are three in one. Now as to another physical manifestation of Christ . . . that is another matter that I'm not fully prepared to discuss but that's ok because I have the Holy Spirit in me that will continue to lead me. The bottom line is that the Twelve Tribes cannot save nor sanctify me - only Jesus Christ can do that. Any group or man that tries to make that a condition of salvation or even sanctification (putting themselves equal to Christ or part of the solution), I'm going to stay away. Does this mean that I should not submit to others? No. But it means that I should first submit to Christ and let him lead. I've enjoyed our conversation about The Little Prince. Have a safe and happy season. I will probably be spending the rest of it with my family. (Message edited by Priceless on December 20, 2006) (Message edited by Priceless on December 20, 2006)   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 5:11 pm:        I disagree with you though. In Matthew 5:17-18 Christ specifically states that HE came to fulfill the law - not His bride." Priceless, Perhaps Matthew 24:14 can further explain the work by Yahshua through his spirit in his people to be done before the end can come. Matthew 24:14 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. "And I also disagree with you that He cannot return - He already did in the person of the Holy Spirit. They are three in one." Also, in Acts 9:4, Yahshua asks Saul why he is persecuting him. Saul was persecuting believers, Yahshua's body, not the man Yahshua. Acts 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "The bottom line is that the Twelve Tribes cannot save nor sanctify me - only Jesus Christ can do that." But, how can he do that without ambassadors, or a witness? Acts 13:47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? John 17:23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. I have enjoyed our conversation as well, about the little prince and about the gospel. I have learned much from it. It does, however, seem we have come to the end of it. Even though we disagree, I still have a fondness for you and I wish you the very best, the pearl, or as in the little prince, the rose. Be blessed, here_comes_sunshine (Message edited by here_comes_sunshine on December 20, 2006)   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 138 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 10:32 pm:        I found myself coming back tonight because I thought about a lot of what you said today. Again, in many ways I do not see that we are at odds. My only objection is to not allow satan to try to put me under the law . . . but subjecting myself to a husband (Christ) to obey the law to the best of my ability is something else. Not because, like the rich young man, I am doing this because I think I need to work to be saved because I know even with my best efforts I cannot do this. satan just about got too me again today when I pondered your words but I realize that this is satan and not you. I kept thinking, this is easy for me. I don't want a husband that thinks I'm not good enough for him and God does say that there is only one that is good and that is God. When I read your post about the Bride, I get the feeling that you think that I have to be perfect for Christ. Yet it is my understanding that I am only perfect through the blood of Christ and faith in Him. Then I thought, I don't have a Husband that is looking for a perfect Bride but excepts me "just as I am" and sees me as perfect because I am covered or dressed in His royalty (my sins are covered with His blood and His banner over me is love). So again, here you have the Husband, as noted in the NT as loving His Bride which makes it easy for the Bride to submit to Him. Sometimes it is hard for us on earth to visualize this basically because many men don't love their wives to begin with which makes it a great strain for the woman to submit to the husband. It is hard for me not to look at this symbolism from earthly experiences and this just about got me really down today. But I realized this was just satan trying to make me work for salvation and trying to obey the law as opposed to me being willing to submit to obedience because of the love of Christ. Two different things and it is a MAJOR issue for me. So in this I think maybe, just maybe, we might be saying the same thing. I'm not a biblical scholar but I am interested in all this and I do apply myself as I can (although I often get distracted by Factnet and get on other topics of study related to the Bible). If I remember correctly doesn't the Bride, the New Jerusalem, come down from Heaven? Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. This would seem to indicate to me that Christ descends with His Bride since it says that the tabernacle of God is with men. You also stated: But, how can he do that without ambassadors, or a witness? The Holy Spirit was directly a witness to me. I'm not in a position to judge the Twelve Tribes but I do suspect that even if the TT includes true ambassadors and witnesses that there are others by different names that can also be ambassadors and witnesses. The problems that I see with the TT is that they do not seem to teach stewardship and that is something Christ taught. I don't have a problem with them even giving up what they have to each other but even in that there has to be stewardship and this was a universal teaching to all Christians it appears so all in the TT should be taught how to become good stewards for the Kingdom of God.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 139 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 10:37 pm:        Regarding John 17th - I agree with Gill: Joh 17:23 - I in them,.... Christ is in his saints; not as he is in all the world, being the omnipresent God; or as he is in every man, communicating the light of nature as Creator; or as he is in the human nature, which is united to his divine person; or circumscriptively to the exclusion of him elsewhere; for he is in heaven, his blood is within the veil, and his righteousness without us: but he is in them, in a gracious manner, in regeneration; when he is revealed to them, formed in them, enters into them, takes possession of them, communicates his grace, grants fellowship with himself, and dwells in them; not only by his Spirit and grace, but in person, as the head in the members, as the master of the house, and the King of them; which is an instance of condescending grace, and is peculiar to God's elect: hence all their holiness and fruitfulness; nor shall they ever perish; their bodies shall rise from the dead, and being reunited to their souls, Christ will be in them in a glorious manner to all eternity: and thou in me; the Father is in Christ, not only by union of nature, nor merely in him, as Mediator, in a way of grace; but as he will show himself in and through him in glory for evermore, and is what is here prayed for: that they may be made perfect in one; this regards not their justification, which is already perfect; nor their sanctification, which will be; but either perfection in glory, when they will be perfect in knowledge, in holiness, in peace, joy and love: or rather the perfection of their numbers is meant, when the whole election of grace will be completed in regeneration, sanctification, and glorification: and that the world may know that thou hast sent me: as before; See Gill on Joh_17:21; I'm happy to submit to the best of my ability . . . working to save myself is a totally different thing and is not mentally healthy.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.163.69.43 Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 11:03 pm:        Priceless, I don't want to bring you down. I think you are sincere in your faith and love for God, I think I am too. But, I think the foundation for your faith is faulty, Jesus Christ wasn't even the savior's name. I think if the bible is true, then the twelve tribes are on the right track, and that it takes a community, or a preisthood, to express God's true character and love. If God's chosen people can't even live together in peace and harmony showing selfless love, then who can? Your putting way too much pressure on yourself to try and do it alone, much less with a false Messiah. I know that statement will probably upset you, but it is what I honestly believe. Just FYI, the twelve tribes do have some insight into how stewartship is expressed, and they also believe in three eternal destinies of man: for the unjust and filthy, the righteous, and the holy. So, no matter what Satan tries to tell you, you are priceless, or precious, and clearly have great worth. I know that because of the way you treat people here on factnet, like me. I care about you too, and that is why I have to be as honest as I can be, but I have nothing real to offer you as far as salvation, because my faith is yet to be realized. But, when it is, it will cost me everything, and I will pay it as a dept of love, because that will be my heart's desire.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 12:26 am:        Look at the sky Look up above In hope that your Prince appears. All that you've learned of life and love Is ringing joyfully in your ears. Listen to how the bells resound. The music will calm your fears. What you have lost And what you have found Will guide you through the years. Every sound Every chime Mends the heart. Makes it whole. Starlight bells Deep as wells Reach through time To heal the soul.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 12:28 am:        Peace on Earth   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 12:48 am:        Dear Priceless, There is something else I want to say to you, even though I'm not sure what it is, I just want it to be what you need to hear. Please don't be sad, or anxiety attacked. I would never want my words to do that to you. I don't doubt that you do listen to your conscience and believe what's in your heart. That is all anyone sincere tries to do. I fear God too sometimes. I think we are supposed to. I wish I could see you face to face and have a conversation with you. I bet we are a lot alike. My offer still stands to be friends, we could talk about other things, if you ever want to email me. Love, here_comes_sunshine So long longest night of the year!   beenthereonehat New member Username: beenthereonehat Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.155.234 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 4:57 am:        "But, I think the foundation for your faith is faulty, Jesus Christ wasn't even the savior's name." And neither is yashuah my dear. Dear Sunshine, You would do well to stick with the gospel of the Son of God instead of promoting a 30 year doctrine from a people with grandious claims who have both good and bad fruit and may I be so bold to suggest not judging wih "the mind of those people" if someones belief in the Messiah is true or false. If you believe they have the true gospel on the whole then according to them you have the faith already and should give your life to them or go to the lake of fire(according t their own gospel). You may do well to go live among them the for about three to six months. Then you will see what you never will as a outsider.   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 889 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.200 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 10:42 am:        AMEN!!!! Get ya a gut full!!!! Kill the Buddha!   servent New member Username: servent Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 80.33.156.145 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 11:23 am:        Hi there;i think the most important is to be sure of your faith,then you trust your father and go to work for him whereever you are usefull.   servent New member Username: servent Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 80.33.156.145 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 11:41 am:        Yes..even the sex-abuses that happens in all the cultures(and whoever do it will HEAVILY PAY IT IN FRONT OF HIM this kind of perversions happened in the first churh,and Paul condemnt it. I think the TT have a good structure to serve god in it,serving people day by day; yes there are some hard teachings...in my case i don't mind to don't take pig,or wine,.. i just would like to concentrate in my service,and knowing that every part of the world,every comunity are wolves.But i don't want to get paranoic trying to see who can be.. just doing my service,trying to love the persons around me. I mean,every one have to look for its place, here i'm living in a village,alone,yes with some friends,but i would like my service more active,for that i think the TT can be a good place for it even,mind control,evils spirits,deceptions...and all the bad things i heard in this forum. to who can receive it: the almighty is with you he will bless you in your decisions,because HE/SHE knows the desire of your heart for the humans,that is peace and don't war,to glorify and pray his name for the grace of his son. take care my friend, some day we will share our faces with a great smile.   beenthereonehat New member Username: beenthereonehat Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.155.234 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 4:57 pm:        Servent, Are you a TT member or were you? You sound familure to me. "take care my friend, some day we will share our faces with a great smile!"   interestednu New member Username: interestednu Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.173.58.86 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 5:54 pm:        Hello?   interestednu New member Username: interestednu Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.173.58.86 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 5:55 pm:        Look's like everybody went to dinner!   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:08 pm:        beenthereonehat, I realize I am in danger of going to the lake of fire, thanks for reminding me again. I suppose that was the case before I met the twelve tribes as well. So, really, I'm not any worse off. If God is good, and his standard is as high as my conscience, then I'm a dead man, or woman. But, I still have hope of being saved by Yahshua. I'm not sure what you mean by the gospel of the son of God. There is some confusion there for me. However, the twelve tribes have exposed the foundation of Christianity as false, or disobedient to the commands of the son of God, and I cannot denigh that. I said I thought priceless' faith and love was sincere. But, I believe Christianity to be a false religion embracing a false Messiah with another name, and another gospel.   interestednu New member Username: interestednu Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.173.58.86 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:32 pm:        HCS, Are you a TT member?   interestednu New member Username: interestednu Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.173.58.86 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:34 pm:        beenthereonehat, Does your name have a significant meaning? signed, interestednu   interestednu New member Username: interestednu Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.173.58.86 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:37 pm:        Here_comes_sunshine, Do you really beleive the Bible teaches that the wicked will go to a lake of fire?   beenthereonehat New member Username: beenthereonehat Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.155.234 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 7:04 pm:        "I realize I am in danger of going to the lake of fire, thanks for reminding me again." Sunshine, I thank you for replying. I personally believe no such thing and my dear, do forgive me if that is what I communicated to you? I assure you I could never believe that about you after reding so many of your postings! I only wish you did not believe it about your self. "I suppose that was the case before I met the twelve tribes as well. So, really, I'm not any worse off. If God is good, and his standard is as high as my conscience, then I'm a dead man, or woman. But, I still have hope of being saved by Yahshua." YES! God Is Good! His standard is MERCY which TRIUMPHS over judgment! This is the revelation I recieved when God told me to leave the TT! Had I not had that loving and kind word in the quietness of my heart from my loving heavenly Father, I would not of known the faith and freedom and courage to leave. "I'm not sure what you mean by the gospel of the son of God. There is some confusion there for me." The gospel of the Son of God is not fear, condemnation, rejection or judging others. The true gospel is LOVE! The fruit is always the tell all of any people or tree. Sometimes we have to climb the tree and eat the fruit before we relize it is bad fruit, sometimes we can tell by only looking or tasting. Although the look and taste can be very deceptive and make you sick or even die. Many have died ingesting the fruit of the TT. Good fruit does not kill or bring about illness, it heals and comforts you. "However, the twelve tribes have exposed the foundation of Christianity as false, or disobedient to the commands of the son of God, and I cannot denigh that." Yes, yes, but many before them and aside from them have and are doing the same dear one. Be as a little child and you will see and know and rest in the truth of His love and kindness. "I said I thought priceless' faith and love was sincere. But, I believe Christianity to be a false religion embracing a false Messiah with another name, and another gospel." Yes and yes. Though many are sincere does not mean they personally are embracing a false Messiah. No one has the right to judge what anothers personal experience with God or the Messiah is, or if that Messiah or God is false. This doctrine alone has produced much bad fruit, mainly, athieism, war, hate, murder.. i could go on but I must rest now. Just know our heavenly Father loves you and priceless and his eye has two very golden apples in it!   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 141 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 7:59 pm:        Sunshine, I am convinced that the Lord of the Bible, the man (or God as man) that shed His blood to cover my sins does not care what language I speak. He doesn't care that translators have translated His name as Jesus. Here is an example. I belong to an organization that all of a sudden decided that the acronym that everyone was calling them (or the sound that occurred when the letters were pronounced together) wasn't what they wanted to be called. So they insisted that people quit calling them that and call them something else. A year later they were coming back and saying, we don't care what you call us . . . we just care that you call us. I think to a certain degree the Christ of the Bible is like that (with respect of course). He is more worried about people believing that He is God and came to earth and shed His blood for them and desires them to accept Him as Lord of their lives than whether they can vocalize His name correctly (he even invites those who cannot speak, read, or write). What you seem to be suggesting appears as legalism to me. 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Barnes: That is, interpret it according to its own spirit and design, and use it for the purpose for which God has given it; for the ceremonial law was a schoolmaster to lead us unto Christ, and Christ is the end of that law for justification to every one that believes. Now those who did not use the law in reference to these ends, did not use it lawfully - they did not construe it according to its original design and meaning. 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinner . . . Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. OK . . . I really cannot come back to Factnet for a few days so may you be blessed and may the Holy Spirit convict your heart with the understanding that you can never be good enough to save yourself. You must completely realize that you are a sinner and that you need a Savior that can fulfill the law. This man, regardless of what He is called in any language, is also God. He came to earth, shed His blood for your sins and He is the only good one that ever set foot on this earth. He promises that if you believe He is God that He will do the rest. Note: the rich young man really didn't or He would have gladly submit to the request - I believe because the rich young man wasn't really hearing what He was saying and was so focused on how he was going to save himself).   beenthereonehat New member Username: beenthereonehat Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.155.234 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 9:04 pm:        PS. If the Messiahs death on the cross produced only the 2000 some odd people, who over the last 30 yrs, thousands upon thousands have come and gone and only a very small number stayed from the beginning and of those, most of their children have left, and the TT claim to be the only true church then I dare say, the church is in big trouble.   beenthereonehat New member Username: beenthereonehat Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 137.118.155.234 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 10:19 pm:        "beenthereonehat, Does your name have a significant meaning?" Hi There Interested, Well I am a firm believer in Providince and submitted my name 3 times as beentheredonethat and apparently I am suppose to be beenthereonehat. I must say it is appropriate as one hat is all I wear when I wear one which is about 50% of the time, fishing, walking, working in my garden and so on. Good Night!   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 148 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 10:38 pm:        Sunshine, You might also want to view this thread under Doctrine. . .Merry Christmas or happy holidays?   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 149 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 10:49 pm:        Look at the sky Look up above In hope that your Prince appears. All that you've learned of life and love Is ringing joyfully in your ears. Listen to how the bells resound. The music will calm your fears. What you have lost And what you have found Will guide you through the years. Every sound Every chime Mends the heart. Makes it whole. Starlight bells Deep as wells Reach through time To heal the soul. And I meant to say - Thank you. I love that! I think it is my favorite chorus now.   servent New member Username: servent Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 83.45.219.80 Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 6:22 am:        yes,i was a former member,i'm thinking to come in again,i just can imagine the weight i will have to support and a part of me is scare,but the faith in my heart give me stregth,to be useful with my little part;working for the love,and union of the people who love the creator.   servent New member Username: servent Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 83.45.219.80 Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 6:42 am:        in some part i really wish somebody with god autority to face Yoneq for some of his teachings,i mean like, eliyah did it with the false prophets,god answer with fire from the sky.. imagine we can see it,because i wish the truth and a god's leader.. in the same time,i don't know yoneq,and if his desire is sincere,i hope in the future they understand that the god revelations,can come to not just one person... maybe an open assambly to discuss the doctrine and to go on with the understanding of the son of god, some kind of concilium?? like the first church. i really wish that,because they told that in the future it have to be twelve apostles,more prophets,masters,and evangelists... i pray everyday that the understanding come to them and every sincere heart. I'm also sure that if Paul live in the present days,he will have problems with lots of people for his severe doctrine; so we need to pray! my best wishes to all!   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 10:44 pm:        Priceless, Remember the woman in the bible who poured out her alabaster jar of perfume at Yahshua's feet weeping and wiping them with her hair, and she would not stop kissing his feet? Some who were present thought she could have been a better stewart. But, Yahshua thought it was a beautiful thing she did for him. He said her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. I think Yahshua is a beautiful name, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. As far as the law goes, well, maybe the fox does represent the law, after all, he showed the little prince how to love, or the directions, but the little prince still had to die for his sins, or selfishness, to be reconciled with his long lost rose and live a new life of selfless love. (Message edited by here_comes_sunshine on December 22, 2006)   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 154 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 - 9:34 pm:        Yes, the fox did at first seem like the law - particularly with the hunters hunting it and obeying the law to a T so to speak. I'm just curious about the need to call Christ Yahshua. I've read a bit on the Twelve Tribes thread that you have posted and they don't seem to have a problem with people using the English Jesus unless this changes once you become part of the TT. I agree with you on the woman with her alabaster jar of perfume. One just has to listen to God's direction at each and every moment with how he wants us to use what he has put in our stewardship. I try to listen but sometimes like Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son . . . God provides another sacrifice instead. I had such an experience recently. Sometimes, God wants to see what we will do and then He provides something different. Strange but I just accept it as it is. Another question, in the TT marriage ceremony there is this thing about the bride running (I believe to the groom). To me this is strange. If anything I've always been told that this is unattractive in a woman and yes, since this is a metaphor I'm trying to work it out. My sense was that it was God who pursues us and not the other way around? What I'm a missing? LOL! I guess I'm the shy wallflower type. (Message edited by Priceless on December 25, 2006)   interestednu New member Username: interestednu Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.173.58.86 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 12:25 am:        So Priceless, are you just another curious person like me? You never were with the TT or have any family there?   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 155 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 6:53 pm:        I have no clue how I got on these sets of threads!   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 156 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 9:15 pm:        OK, well . . . I guess I'm going to make a New Year's resolution to stay off of Factnet. At this point in my life it doesn't seem to be really serving a purpose for where I am. I have enjoyed our conversation sunshine, it's been one of the few that have been somewhat normal here. The conversation has made me really think about the bride of Christ and the Bridegroom and end times and the order of events. It's funny but I've hated the pit that I have felt like I've found myself in. It's not a total pit and there are good things but many limitations; however, I feel that I might be better served if I just embrace it and let God do whatever he wants with me in this pit. Who knows? Just for a bit of humor, I'll add that my husband had to play a prince of sorts as we had a family outing and I had (apparently) a stomach virus. I lost him during the course of the day and by this time my head had started pounding very hard. So I got my thorns out when I saw him again. And then he had to endure the thorns although he was wise enough to realize that I was sick and ignore my anger. Then he had to pull over so I could lose my stomach on the side of the road. Ya know, most of the time he doesn't know I exist but he can surprise me with compassion sometimes when I get those thorns out. Besides that he endures the theme parks with me even though he is not that thrilled about them.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 1:31 am:        Priceless, I have been thinking I need to make an exodus from factnet as well...for a few good reasons. David Derush doesn't believe it is a good place for people like me who are seeking life saving faith, and my user name used to be truth seeker, and though I have learned many truths here, I don't want to be poisoned by the lies. Also, my priorities are to be the best wife and mother I can be. So, if I get behind on one load of laundry, or don't have time to make that extra side salad with dinner, or am distracted from a single moment I could be sharing with my children, or even staying up late at night and as a result not being quite as cheerful in the morning, then I am not doing my best at what is most important to me. Furthermore, it seems I may be facing a unique opportunity to save the life of a complete stranger through a donor program I have been registered with for several years. It may be a long shot, just like the twelve tribes being the restoration of the church, or Israel, may be a stretch too, but I still have to do what is right. I have to be willing to lay down my life for the sake of love, or God. Well, I guess that is enough reasons. I'm sorry you were sick for Christmas, but I'm glad your husband took good care of you. I'll tell you what I know as far as your question about the twelve tribe's weddings. First of all, their weddings are all about the gospel and the church and, of course, Yahshua. The bride runs to Yahshua because she has been eagerly waiting for him, and at at last, he calls for her. In actuality she is caught up in the clouds to meet him in the air. I may not get this exactly right, but the bride has prepared herself for her husband having become a compatible partner for him (Ephesians 5:27), and has put all of his enemies under his feet (1 Corinthians 15:20-28, Hebrews 1:13), so they can reign together in the new age to come(Rev 5:10). I've got the little prince coming on DVD, but I don't think it is the version you recommended to me. If you want to you could email me sometime, and I could let you know if anything else new comes to mind about the story. It's been a nice discussion. Good luck on your new year's resolution. I think I have finally reached the place to really will mine to happen. Your friend, here_comes_sunshine   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 158 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 7:49 am:        Sounds like you will be pretty busy and having some great life experiences. The version of The Little Prince that I recommended was the BBC version and is located at Amazon.com. LOL! I actually just reviewed it on amazon the other day something I never do. If you bought the movie from Amazon, I bet they would let you exchange it. I also have the cd version that I keep in my car. Guess I would never make it in the TT because my money does go occasionally for stuff like this. But I believe it is edifying and I rather think God approves of it. I don't have your email address to email you but I would love to occasionally correspond about the story. Good luck to you and even more so, God's blessings. (Message edited by Priceless on December 27, 2006)   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 934 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.139.7 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 9:26 am:        Sunshine, It sounds like you have your hands full with your own little tribe! It also sounds like your doing Gods will for you right now! You dont need the chains of the TT to do His will! Take care of your family! Your doing great! Dont ever think some stranger knows Gods will for you. Your heart is doing that job just fine all on its own. Keep up the "good work"!!!   interestednu New member Username: interestednu Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.173.58.86 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 9:40 am:        Everyone, I think none of us should blindly fall for what anybody says on here. We should carefully read everything, ponder over it, and use our own sense of reasoning before coming to any concrete decisions. I am enjoying the discussions, and the other sites that many of generously brought to my attention. But I weigh everything against what the Bible says. Everything was written "for our instruction". I do beleive however that the road to death is broad and spacious and the road to salvation is cramped and narrow and few are the ones finding it. So I salute all of you who are earnestly searching for that narrow gate. Keep up the good work! I'll search with you!   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 937 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.206 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 1:10 pm:        Searching for Oz...   wonderingaboutalot New member Username: wonderingaboutalot Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.24.70.102 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 6:07 pm:        I agree with interestednu, we cannot blindly follow anybody or their opinion. I have been out of tt for about 2 years and read these boards as well as others just about every day and I still dont know what to think about factnet and ex tters or even tt themselves. Even if tt is not the truth I wouldnt trade in my time there for anything (even though it was very hard most of the time), everyone must experience it for themselves to determine if tt is true or for them. I love their lifestyle and couldnt imagin raising children outside of tt but it is the spiritual stuff I dont get.   yaqakallah New member Username: yaqakallah Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.110.28.40 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 8:23 pm:        Priceless, Could you please tell me who wrote this book, "The Little Prince"? I think there may be several by this title. I just received correspondense from a friend who said that this was his favorite book, but of what little he wrote on it the 2 sound different. Can't remember who wrote his, some guy with 3 names maybe?   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 159 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 10:43 pm:        Antoine de Saint Exupéry For my son, Lemuel It's pointless rushing destiny. It's much better having faith. It's pointless to wish You were in another's place. So when you find yourself pursuing Much like Christ with His bride. Seek for a virtuous woman. Don't let your heart divide. It's pointless rushing destiny. It's much better having faith. It's pointless to wish You were in another's place. Don't covet what one has Like David and Uriah's lamb; Much better to have faith God pleads reproach from Nabal's hand. Never anger over another Trying to do God's will- Who's shoes you could be wearing Pray God's will those shoes would fill. So when you wear those shoes When the season comes You will have done to you As you indeed have done. Then let your actions be a blessing And many blessings you will receive To every thing there is a season, So don't let any woman deceive. Bide your time and wait for God His blessings to you bring. When you get discouraged Praises to God you shall sing. I pray for you your destiny But in God's time not yours. For if you try to rush destiny You'll find your eyes forget the Lord. I pray for you a bride Clothed as the Bride of Christ. Who's faith in God abounds And who knows eternal life.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 161 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 11:28 pm:        I'll tell you what I know as far as your question about the twelve tribe's weddings. First of all, their weddings are all about the gospel and the church and, of course, Yahshua. The bride runs to Yahshua because she has been eagerly waiting for him, and at at last, he calls for her. In actuality she is caught up in the clouds to meet him in the air. OK - it's not New Year's yet. LOL! See this is where I don't see it. I thought that the ceremony was sweet when I first saw it but it looks to me that the bride is waiting with their lamps and the groom calls for them and basically provides the transportation too so I don't see the running. It probably doesn't matter. But I just couldn't see it. (Message edited by Priceless on December 27, 2006)   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 162 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 11:40 pm:        I guess I should clarify that the poem is not by Antoine de Saint Exupéry.   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 163 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 12:03 am:        Life is strange, you finally get to a place where one has been able to minister to you (not factnet)and then it seems that the shut the door on you and take the message away. Such is my life. Guess I shouldn't expect anything different than this.   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 941 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.206 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:01 am:        AMEN!!!   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:16 am:        Priceless, My email address is stellalunalux@hotmail.com I look forward to sharing more with you about the weddings and the little prince in a more personal and time efficient way. Thank you   priceless Intermediate Member Username: priceless Post Number: 167 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:17 am:        Yea but that's not the way it should be so I think Amen is not the right response. It's a shame, they lurk in the shadows and never have the courage to reveal themselves so it is easy to misunderstand motives, etc. And so ministry falls and feelings are hurt and no one is edified or healed. Everyone takes messages based on their own perceptions and life experiences (myself included) and no one seems to think that there may be a different way to take a statement. But I know this, if one really wants a message to be heard they will not play games, they will be as transparent as they can be and maybe, just maybe, God can use you regardless of how ugly you feel. I need you to know I'm not through the night Some days I'm still fighting to walk towards the light I need you to know That we'll be okay Together we can make it through another day I don't know the first time I felt unbeautiful The day I chose not to eat What I do know is how I changed my life forever I know I should know better There are days when I'm okay And for a moment For a moment I find hope But there are days when I'm not okay And I need your help So I'm letting go The good news is that I eat. The bad news is that I totally understand this: I don't know the first time I felt unbeautiful. Then I look at others who look as angels with wings a glow and I never feel that I measure up - just pray that maybe, just maybe my heart will become good as gold through Christ. Then despair abounds and no one seems around and when I'm alone - no one hears me cry. And I most always seem to be alone in this house although others are around. But I do what is right and I try to make lemonade out of lemon and then I seem to repel others. Like my relationship with my dad, regardless of my actions I cannot do anything right. If a father is a picture of what God is in heaven then I am doomed. (Message edited by Priceless on December 28, 2006)   yaqakallah New member Username: yaqakallah Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.110.28.40 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 2:03 am:        Priceless, I hear your words, I feel them as well. Dear Sister, you are not alone, I'm on the same page, and I am not allowed to turn the page today so I give that to our Heavenly Father. One day the page will turn, but not by my hand, HIS. My hands appear useless and my mind and body is withered but I rejoice knowing that OUR FATHER is with US. And no dear, your earthly father(no one's is) a 'type' of our Abba.You are not 'doomed'. Put your full trust in Our heavenly Father and stay in his word and NEVER stop praying! Let him carry you and one day you will walk beside him . He has a plan for each of us and one day when we have withstood the storms of our lives, we will be made stronger to be used for HIS WILL! You are welcome to email anytime! Please do! kimberlymfredrick@yahoo.com yaqakallah@yahoo.com   nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 942 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.138.9 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:37 am:        Priceless, Am I missing the meaning of this poem or what? It seems that what it is saying, if your looking for a bride, then wait on the Lord and He will bring you the right one. The one He means you to have...Or else you must deal with the consequences of your own machinations... Well, whoever wrote the poem, I say... AMEN!!!   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2460 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 12:19 pm:        priceless you seem to keep having these feelings over and over time and again no matter what you change your user name to-I can only hope you are being sincere- for there are many people who are and who have tried to show you compassion in the past.   here_comes_sunshine Member Username: here_comes_sunshine Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.140.182.9 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:24 pm:        Priceless, How foolish of me to think I could break free from factnet so easily...I always have time for a friend, so I'll stick around as long as you need me to. However, I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to communicate. When you say, "Life is strange, you finally get to a place where one has been able to minister to you (not factnet)and then it seems that the shut the door on you and take the message away." and "It's a shame, they lurk in the shadows and never have the courage to reveal themselves so it is easy to misunderstand motives, etc. And so ministry falls and feelings are hurt and no one is edified or healed. Everyone takes messages based on their own perceptions and life experiences (myself included) and no one seems to think that there may be a different way to take a statement. But I know this, if one really wants a message to be heard they will not play games, they will be as transparent as they can be and maybe, just maybe, God can use you regardless of how ugly you feel." Are you in anyway referring to me or to our discussion? After the holidays can be a depressing time for some people, that is when my brother committed suicide. I'm sorry you are feeling down. I assure you I am not playing games, I honestly just want to be your friend, but I'm not going to be completely transparent on this board. I will say though that I do understand how your relationship with your father has effected you. My father was not really critical of me, he just never payed much attention to me. He sat in front of the tv or the computer most of the time he was at home when I was growing up. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why I want to avoid spending so much time on things like factnet, I want my children to feel valued and loved everyday. It seems like because of my difficult relationship with my father, I have trouble speaking my heart to the people who I love the most, I guess because I fear that if I really let them know me, they won't like me. I'm getting better at this though. Thus, I think starving yourself may make a statement, but surely there are better ways to let people know you are hurting and need their help. When you feel unbeautiful it is hard to share yourself with someo