| Author | Message | ||
     xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Greetings folks, I want to thank you all at this site for providing such up to date info regarding EN,MorningStar, and Maranatha. The time line is awesome and a great source of info on things that interest me, albeit for far different reasons than most here. After spending hours perusing the site, I find myself quite intrigued by the topics of discussion regarding not only these ministries, but so many others. I'd love to comment on so much of what I've read, but I just don't have enough time to deal with all of the misinformation and misinterpreted scripture, so I'll start in here where I am somewhat familiar. I was in Maranatha for 7 years, and later, through almost a chance occurance in MorningStar for approximately 4 more years, though I am not currently in Every Nation as there is no church in my area, though I might or might not attend there if there were a church here. Although I attended one of the most tightly controlled Maranatha churches, I seem to have a far different view than most of the posters here. I am acquainted with many of the men involved in all of these ministries and consider most of them to be true Christians. I lived through the dissolution of Maranatha without incident and am quite secure in my theology and relationship with God which clearly does not mirror the beliefs of the most diehard posters. Leo Lawson was my pastor and father in the Lord, so to speak, and I thank God for him and his ministry, "bad doctrine" and all. I normaly don't post on multiple religious oriented forums, but there just doesn't seem to be enough posters with a view differing from what I see here. A lot of what is posted here is, however quite enlightening and well documented so I swallow the bad with the good. I think it is a noble intention to expose cultish behavior, though I percieve much of the enthusiasm as misguided. Fortunately, you will have an eternity to deal with me and so many of these men and ministries when we all meet in Heaven and find out just how far off we all might be in our beliefs, so I shall endeavor to share some of my views as topics warrant in the here and now. It seems that too many here neglect to consider the fact that many of the people being lambasted here are just God loving and fearing men and women like the rest of us with real lives and real families and real humanity. Mistakes were and are made and sin was and is committed, but if I could only be a fly on the wall in your lives I think we all know the reality is that it works both ways. I must attempt to split my message now due to size limitations. Future posts will be smaller. Part 2 coming. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
. Since I don't know exactly where to begin, I thought I'd just introduce myself a bit, and partially enlighten you on a bit of my perspective and then take it from there. I am more than confident that Every Nation is not a cult and that things are far different than they were 25 years ago and that is from personal experience. Of course, there are some things that troubled me years ago, and some that still do today, but not to the extent of some of what I've read here. I read that the quality of a post will be determined by the response it generates, so I will not cut and paste any of the things I'd like to question, but just see what comes of this initial message and take it from there. Perhaps this is merely a short-lived diversion for me that will generate little interest and that is fine, but I've found that differing views passionately presented are what make these discussions productive and interesting. Since I am registered now, however, I will at least occasionally comment on various postings of interest regardless of any response here because the zeal and sincerity of many of the regular posters here has piqued my interest. Who knows- perhaps someone may just enlighten me to the truth and value of what is being presented and I'll be a better man for it in the long run. I must admit, that this does not really seem to be much of a discussion or debate regarding any of these matters, but more like a web forum where those with a one-sided view and presentation take opportunity to vent and discuss their bad opinions and experiences, so it may be that it is totally inappropriate to even begin to present another view on any topic. It is a cult-watching group after all sanctioned by the rules of the website, so that aspect is unclear to me. It could be, though, that those who view things differently just don't want to spend the time and effort in this particular group for personal reasons. I'll soon find out I suppose. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1254 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"I'd love to comment on so much of what I've read, but I just don't have enough time to deal with all of the misinformation and misinterpreted scripture" I'm so relieved to know that someone with all the correct information and the correct interpretation of scripture has finally arrived. Welcome to the board! | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 718 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 |
xman3, You have my attention. Pick a topic for discussion. Toss out one of the items of perceived misinfomation for discussion. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2164 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.165.55 |
I have been waiting for someone to logically and intelligently present EN's case. I think you just might be him. I am not being sarcastic, your posts were thoughtful and I am looking forward to your comments. Welcome! I am probably here for my own selfish reasons to renew friendships, etc. But--- There were some despicable characters in my past, and some wonderful ones too, as there are probably those types today. I have a real issue with very wealthy preachers, ones who have manipulated others to get that way, wherever they are. The trinket church is what makes me sick. MCM had fewer of these than EN does now, but the whole prosperity bunch is so far from Jesus' ministry that I ache at what has happened in America in this particular area. My pastor holds a Doctorate in one of the most successful Southern Baptist Churches in the south, and you would never know it by what he drives, where he lives, etc. These people with 200/congregation do not warrant the salaries they are raking in. Again, welcome, and I would encourage you to state some specific points of contention so others can respond. You have heard mine, and I think it is well documented with the leadership of EN. And no, I am not envious, my wife and I are doing fine and live a wonderful life. Looking forward to yur posts, Matt (Message edited by matt_hatter on December 10, 2006) | ||
| flo1151 Advanced Member Username: flo1151 Post Number: 539 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.33.171.138 |
xman, Hope you are right. Welcome aboard. flo | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1054 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.128.168.158 |
Hi and Welcome Xman3, Can I ask if you were in leadership in your Maranatha group, or Msi. I ask because that is were the inter dealings of the group become known then. A cell group leader would not be aware of these things. I found that as one moves up into eldership etc., the choice comes to violate's one conscience in regard to the Word. Thank you for your post.}} | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Thanks (I think) for the welcome. I admit I worded my post in such a way to get a response because I really am quite interested in this stuff. I do not have "all the correct information" and never claimed to. I have some though, as experience is a good teacher. I lived it, like many others have, with a different perspective. I think a lot of the information gathered here is actually quite excellent, whether I like it or not. As for scripture interpretation, I am referring to many of the other topics regarding other ministries and minsters being discussed, and the Biblical basis for such. There is actually very little scripture involved with much of this discussion to quibble with because it seems a lot currently centers in on the financial situations that appear to be currently going on. I could go on and on about the doctrines of healing, tongues, faith, the cross, the tithe and many others that I believe are incorrectly represented here and in the course of time I may do so, but much of that doesn't really apply to this particular group's discussion at this time. Some does, however, and I shall carefully consider what direction I will pursue in presenting any position I hold and try to present some intelligent prespective rather than something that will be perceived as some sort of blind acceptance of all things EN. I realize that if I expect everyone to share my personal view of scripture in this discussion group I will be sorely dissappointed. I simply started in this topic because I know Every Nation is not a cult, and I have personal experience from within. There are quite a few ex-pastors and leaders who have posted and do post here, and they may see things differently and I respect their viewpoint and feel their pain in many areas. I've seen many lives affected by their experiences in these ministries, and although I personally do not think that anyone will get very far with God blaming their troubled lives and past on either perceived or actual abuses sustained during their time there, I know there were very real grievances and hurts resulting that can not be made light of. For me, the positives far outweigh(ed) the negatives and I believe that ultimately we are somewhat a product of our own choices concerning our faith and religious experience. Most knowledgeable (in experience) people will agree that the East Lansing church was one of the most controlled of all, yet I continue to thrive as a believer. I butted heads with Leo many, many times, yet I love him as a father and I know of his love for God and for people. I never did like some of the doctrine and some of the practices, but I harbor no ill-will whatsoever. God used those ministries in my life and I cherish my experiences both good and bad. Personally I am amazed that so many people haven't been able to move forward after almost 20 years and to me that is a sad indictment of their own relationship with God in addition to whatever indictments are made against these ministries. I shall consider my next post carefully and be more specific in choosing a topic for discussion. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1255 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"I do not have "all the correct information"" Well, that's just great. You come here and get my hopes up.... Truthfully, there was supposed to be a smiley face by that statement but my 'puter has been screwed up since I downloaded the newest version of Internet Explorer (thanks, speak!). Inserting an icon sometimes freezes up my machine. So, X, please feel free to insert smiley face or preferred sarcastic icon in the following space: / / And, about moving forward....I'm into the next century! Welcome to the board. Mean it. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Cross posting here I see. I was not a pastor and did not have intimate knowledge of the details of the executive board decisions. I was a cell group leader and had some unique experiences in training with some higher level ministers, but little authority. In MSI I was an administrator with little influence outside of my own churches dealings. Much of the details presented here are as clearly presented as I've ever heard them and quite enlightening as I've said. I must be circumspect in some of what I say here, but suffice it to say I have had some interesting experiences in regards to the operation of our Morningstar church. You might be surprised to realize how much each individual church was more a product of the pastor's views towards Morninstar and doctrine than the international ministry and its leadership. I was a mere child in the Maranatha days, and I'm not the same person I was. Perhaps time has softened my perspective a bit. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 177 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 121.82.133.235 |
xman3, Do you consider MCM was a cult, or at least bordering on it? | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I think that MCM definitely had some tendancies towards cult-like behavior. These seemed to be in the realm of using pastoral authority to an excessive degree. The problems that most disturbed me revolved around family issues and career issues. Impressionable college students were not encouraged to seek counsel and wisdom from "unsaved" parents and often steered away from their influence. I also abhored the degree to which the marriage and dating "revelation" was taken. I do not believe it was a cult, but I do see that there was a lot of potential for people to fall victim to these things if they were young, zealous, uninformed (scripturally) believers. We all wanted to please God and sometimes pleasing MCM seemed the same thing. I guess I'm saying certain types of people were more succeptible to the flaws, and I understand the thinking in regards to MCM much more than MSI or En. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 179 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 121.82.133.235 |
Thanks for the response. About the dating revelation, personally the no dating thing didn't bother me BUT do you think it is ok for an organization to have a blanket ban on dating? | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Matt_hatter I'm a bit like you I suppose. Googling ex-maranatha friends always brought up this site and frankly the information here is more productive and accurate than I could get elsewhere. I have grown more and more disgusted with the financial state and teachings regarding prosperity of late. I see too many church members struggling to get by giving 10%+ to the church, believing for some sort of influx from God, while the only ones actually having their laps overflowing are the preachers. I wouldn't mind, since I see the scripture basis for some of it, if it were producing the same results for the givers, but I've yet to see it. That having been said- Every church I was involved with (and I was the administrator of the finances) the Pastor was the largest giver in %. Someone might say so what, they are really just giving to themselves anyway- and I say touche. Never-the-less, they were generous givers and diligent tithers and our church did give away a lot of money to other ministries and people outside of the MSI family of churches. I do find fault with 10 million dollar homes though, but not 600,000 ones. Just my opinion. I know Rice took no salary (or donated I suppose for tax purposes?) and he didn't need the money as his family is/was wealthy already. How long that went on, I don't know though. Of course, I never looked at his income tax statement either, so what do I know. I'll edit this by saying that that's what I was informed of. I see in some of these documents that he had a salary listed and I am not fully apprised as to the details as you would expect, and it was several years ago. (Message edited by xman3 on December 10, 2006) | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I believe a church can ascribe to any rule they want to and we choose to accept it if we want to be a part. We should be free to leave when we must cross the line of our own faith and conscience though. When I was in MSI I was required to tithe as a part of being a "leader", and though I may or may not have agreed with their belief, I accepted it because I felt I was called to serve there. I am not as diligent to tithe right now, but I certainly see that tithing came before, during, and after the law and is not a legalistic issue. It is an issue of the heart. I want to tithe and give, but sometimes I still struggle financially. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
lablady2 I wish I had seen the smiley as it sounds much less sarcastic and welcoming. I highly recommend firefox. IE7 is an improvement, but just updating to it caused me a few minor glitches, and I never use IE unless I have to. I will sign off for awhile and post later. This is turning out to be more enjoyable than I thought it might be. I think a lot of us have much common ground and history. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1618 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.221.91 |
Xman3 welcome. I was also told that Rice did not received any salary from his church, BUT according to the EN 's communique, Rice Salary is overpaid by 30%. Meaning he is receiving salary from EN not from the church. Currently I was told that Rice do still received salary from EN. Though this one is not in the communique. And his salary is cut down so far down , my guess he is only receiving 20% from his original salary before. According to Steve Murrell, EN revenue is now less than $1 million. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 180 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 121.82.133.235 |
All that aside is it natural to dictate that people cannot date? | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1258 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
x-man: I apologize for a lame attempt at humor. Sarcasm doesn't play well with new posters on a message board,and I forgot that. Just FYI, my presence on the board is almost entirely for fun. The issues with MCM (I am a former member) and EN (no personal experience) have very little interest for me. I will grow on you. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I appreciate the sarcasm and humor. I heard what I anticipated rather than what was intended, though I must admit it made me laugh right away. osakadan- I think it is ok to not allow dating in a church in theory. I must, once again, make a comparison to illustrate my point. I believe that God heals and that we can receive healing by faith and many other scriptural ways. Without elaborating on that lengthy topic, I will simply say that not all people (for whatever reason is irrelevant for my point) are able to receive healing. God has provided many other acceptable ways to be healed including doctors and medicine etc... If we were limited to simple faith healing or nothing, most people would get sick and/or die. I liken dating to that pattern. It may very well be that God's best way is to show us His choice for us and for us to receive that in some faith-filled mystical way, but left to that method only, very few people would ever get married. That method is a difficult road for a young new believer and produces much frustration and other problems. Dating, particularly multiple people does not set well with me as a Godly answer to this frustration, but if an individual has a sincere heart and desire to marry according to the will of God, it is a neccesarry(never could spell that word right) method to find out. Outside of marrying, I see no purpose in dating and consider it a great opportunity for compromise. Like so many things in the modern church, the theory is good, but it just doesn't work for the vast majority of the body of Christ, so we must accept other acceptable methods. I guess I'm simply saying its a good, Biblically based theory, but not practical or workable for most people, and that is not an attack on their faith or relationship with God. Personally, I bucked the trend and talked to my wife outside of the system and subsequently received the blessing from Leo and he married us. We did not date previous to my telling Leo, but we didn't submit it either. By that time, MCM was preparing to dissolve, and it soon became a non-issue. You want a bottom line though, so here it is. I don't think it is workable to ban dating completely, but it is an acceptable rule for me regarding church leaders. My observation was that more people left MCM over that issue than almost any other in our college environment. Its hard to keep people of that age apart in any setting and the system always "favored" those pursuing ministry and leadership. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1058 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.135.27.230 |
Hi Xman3, Thank you for your posts. Since you mention the dissolution in East Lansing, did you know why Leo left and went to Texas? What happened to his the church. } | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
The more I study these posts, the more I find myself in a dilemna. First off, the posters have had real experiences and received very real hurts which I don't want to belittle. To boil anything down to a simple get on with your life would cheapen their experience and perhaps be an arrogant response to very real situations that are ongoing in their lives and ministries. I believe there is an element of getting on with life and forgetting the past stuff, but that is no where near enough of a defense for any past or current practice. It is obvious that many of you here have concerns and such that are rooted in far more noble motivations than simply harboring past anger and bitterness. The second dilemna is that some are also from much "higher" levels of leadership than I was and have a perspective from the inside that I do not have. Honestly, I never did receive an adequate explanation for the dissolution of the ministry and my perspective and opinion may be vastly different than others. I was not privvy to the inner workings of the executive board and could not begin to accurately asess (gee they think I'm cursing so I'll misspell intentionally) some of the decisions made long ago. It appears that although I find general issues and statements that would label EN as a cult distasteful and wrong and ultimately sin, I certainly can not make that same statement in regards to the specifics of each posters experience. This will force me to give much thought to how I pursue my posting and I want to be careful to stay scriptural and compassionate. I'm going to give this stuff much thought before I jump into any more in-depth specifics, but I shall return. Perhaps I'm out of my league in this forum. I get more stirred up over much of what I've read about other ministries and men in regards to the posters' personal theology and its application in their statements, but here, I feel I must be very careful as there seems to be some very well informed people with seemingly good reasons for feeling as they do. I'm going to ponder whether to respond to current posts as a devil's advocate, or start a thread of my own and go that route. Im feeling inclined to begin with a new thread discussing my perspective of the general motivation of this discussion group and how it plays out in comparison to my undersatanding of scripture, but that would be woefully inadequate in addressing specifics being presented. My original intent is to defend MSI/EN from being labled a cult as it is not. Doing so in view of these experiences is no easy task and will require more time and diligence than I can muster up on a whim, so I will consider what I'm going to do very carefully before the Lord. God bless all. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I do know why Leo left and I must admit not everything went smoothly during those tough times. The specifics are not important as it was not related to this discussion at that point. Over the course of time the church bought a building and after a couple of attempts to affilliate with other ministries or denominations it eventually settled in with a group out of England led by Bryne Jones. Once again, it split off after a time and is currently succesfully operating in East Lansing with a more community ordered approach rather than university. It has 200-300 members and is pretty succesful, but I left many years ago. Many of my friends still attend including some of the staff, but their vision and way of doing things just isn't for me, but I like the pastor and respect what they are doing. It's not all that bad a part of Leo's and MCM's legacy so to speak. | ||
| john_r_jones Senior Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 1408 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
xman, there is an assemblage of thoughtful folks here who aren't beligerent in general. (a few times we might push the envelope.) What I find in light of the past as well as the present is that this sort of dialog is healthy and it creates a place to grow personally which I certainly have. I sometimes felt like a mental or theological pygmy by comparison. Whether a ministry does or doesn't progress I find most often people do. What I find in your postings is someone whose in transition and becoming more aware. That awareness comes at a price though, we let go of some of our teddy bear notions of reality and life before we can grasp what it is we are to become. Hope that doesn't sound like gibberish. Jonesee | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1059 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.135.27.230 |
Hi X man3# You remind me of me, I would and did say things that you have said here. Have you gotten a chance to study us, then you wanted to post a new thread. You have done so already, so take it easy ,relax. You might learn when you see more, you don't have to be perfect, or even correct. You can join in, that's all. I knew Leo as Butch in Lexington, and wondered. Please keep posting.} (Message edited by coppertree on December 10, 2006) | ||
| aferrill New member Username: aferrill Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.64.110.1 |
I used to think covenant churches were absolutely wonderful!!! I swore they were scripturally sound. It wasn't until I needed answers from the pastor and he avoided my answers for YEARS and I saw a pattern, that I started to wonder what was up. I never thought they were a cult either. As long as we don't confront, we're fine and they love us. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
jrj- A little hard to understand, but not gibberish. I see that what you say is true and my initial impressions may not be totally accurate. I may push the envelope myself if I continue talking so I appreciate the leeway these discussions allow. There is a real mixed bag of opinions and experiences here all of which are interesting to me. Maybe I will just relax and join in and follow along for awhile while I ponder my defense of EN as a non-cult. It's not as though I'm going to add much earth shaking information to a discussion that has continued for years before I joined in, and will most likely comtinue long after. | ||
| priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 71 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
xman, Well, at the risk of repelling individuals away from me, I have to wonder if Factnet isn't "the Cuckoo's Nest" and we are all patients! I think the site does help one when they are at a certain point in their life. I'm not so sure it isn't time for me to close the book on this chapter in my life though. Name it or coin it whatever you want to - but I think I am starting a new chapter. Learn from the site while you are here. If you have areas that need to be healed be prepared for them to eventually erupt like a volcano - this site does that to one. PS - Please pray for me - not feeling too well today - major stomach virus has attacked our area. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Fortunately I need no healing in regards to my past experiences. I dealt with whatever I had to a long time ago, but I was just not all that affected. I believe that people who were prone to put too much of their faith in men and ministries had a much harder time when they failed, then those who put there faith in Jesus and His word. Sorry if that sounds critical, but that's how I see it. I've now been through 2 major church breakups and there just isn't much more that could phase me in regards to what goes on in a church. I've seen pastors divorce and good friends turn on me so I guess the Lord has blessed me with a strong faith and hope in regards to so many of these matters. aferril- I can only say that I often confronted and had a few 8 hour meetings with the staff over my disagreements with doctrine and practice and was never kicked out or ostrasized, and was always in leadership at some small level. The only thing that kept me out of ministry at that time was the demise of the international ministry. I still believe I'm called to some ministerial purpose perhaps, but I'm in a lot less of a hurry and quite content to see where God takes me. Starting afresh for the 3rd time takes some effort, but I will be able to serve people from a perspective that has been actually enhanced by these things rather than destroyed in whatever capacity I work within the church. I see how things could erupt around here though as there are certainly some strong opinions and viewpoints. | ||
| priceless Member Username: priceless Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Best wishes to you. Unfortunately, I didn't even realize that I really had any unfinished business so I erupted. There are good people here, there are very hurt people here but I think for me it is time to move on. I find that satan sometimes uses this board to confuse me. Sometimes God has used it to teach me. All in all though - I feel like I'm through with it. God Bless, | ||
| wildwood_ Intermediate Member Username: wildwood_ Post Number: 354 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.243.114.35 |
Welcome XMan3! (part 1 of 2) And this will be the first of 2 posts...the second (because it's too long to fit) is a copy of my first post on the board (somewhere over on the Leader thread maybe you saw it already, there may be others who don't know how a "Wildwood" stumbled into such fine company here...LOL). There's a longer story as to why I saw the board at all & several days of prayer before I posted...I was not expecting to be welcomed...or to stay LOL I was wrong about the hearts here...(and I've found out some things, possibly a lot of things...sigh, I was clueless then and clueless now...clueless works for me BUT I'm not clueless about about JESUS LOL that I've been clear on by God's Grace & My Parents for Always...a few side trips...but I knew they were the wrong direction when I walked them). I SAW Jesus Here...so I stayed  I came looking for a friend I've been praying for since 1975 and I Still Expect to see him...read the next post and you will see...and I found many, many more that are friends now too.... There was a song a long long time ago....Called Two Hands...With One Reach Out to Jesus...With the Other Bring a Friend and truly I believe and have continued to be believing for years...that we've all been bringing each other along to Jesus for a long long time.... It's not the path I expected; It doesn't look like what I thought the Lord's Face would "look" like when I was 18....hmmm, not all of course (hey public message board & that's the wonderful open thing about it and as it should be) but many Hearts you will find here...will be part of the "Body of Christ" the SAME JESUS, the SAME LOVE, the SAME JOYOUS WONDERMENT in the Astonishing Mercy, Grace & Love of the Lord God for His Children....that I remembered that my old friend spoke & sang of often. The Lord says "Seek and Ye Shall Find !" God Bless You in your seeking.... and the folks here...they've let me keep seeking and hoping and praying and never ever criticized me one time--and I know they bear wounds from things I do not understand...yet, they Hug Me and Say Keep Hoping and Looking...and praying for my Friend...they want me to find him, too. So I DO.  | ||
| wildwood_ Intermediate Member Username: wildwood_ Post Number: 355 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.243.114.35 |
Astonishing Our God is An Awesome God isnt He?? !!! . Heres Part 2 of 2 (sorry to all whove read this before months ago ) _______________________________________________ Hello. I stumbled across this thread searching for an old friend from college at the University of Kentucky in the mid to late 70s. While I have never met Leo Lawson, I was there when Maranatha arrived on the UK campus. Also, at the time various Latter Rain type doctrines were being voiced by a variety of very young, very dynamic college students affiliated with a variety of church groups from Asbury Seminary (individuals not school theology), Covenant Community, Assembly of God, Maranatha, and remember Jed Smock??? The one thing all these leaders had in common was the concept of a unique Baptism of the Holy Spirit that would be manifest (usually) by the gift of a prayer language and of course the follow-up of forgotten sins that must be re-confessed, etc If you all will indulge me briefly, Id like to tell you about the old friend I was looking for and how he came (as I understood it) to also be impacted by Leo. My Brother in the Lord was one of, if not THE kindest, gentlest, most Spiritually & Scripturally grounded young Christian leaders on Campus. At one point, an impromptu weekly Bible Study/Prayer Group that he initiated with just a couple of friends, grew from 4 to about 50. There was no criteria for coming, no doctrine preached, just Christians representative of just about every official and unofficial campus ministry, coming together to simply pray and worship the Lord. Each individual securely grounded in their Home Church; typically the Old Fashioned kind with actual ADULTS as Elders, etc To this day Ive never experienced such an innocent and Holy time of worship. Alas, enter above mentioned groups who felt a need to begin to instruct the unenlightened and backward children who did not have a prayer language and suddenly our unity was gone and in its place a wide gulf of heavy doctrinal issues. Many of unenlightened, became enlightened, and left their respective securely grounded Churches to form or join what I would now term Cult Christian Groups (me too). The Brother whod started this impromptu gathering saw this happen and he tried to work with those who believed you could not pray without a prayer language. Scripturally, my Brother just did not see that as a grounded teaching. And he thought if the Lord had "Saved" you and "already added you to His Church" and you'd been immersed--that re-baptism wasn't scriptural either and he declined to participate in doing so on more than one occasion. But, more and more people kept getting Baptized by the Holy Spirit and receiving their language people whose understanding of the Bible he respected and whose walk with the Lord was almost revered by other Christians (the key being YOUNG oh, we were so foolishly young in our wisdom). Prior to this, above all else, this Brothers belief of sharing Christ with another person started with letting that person see Jesus in his life. And we did. I wish you all could have met this Brother in the Lord because the kindness in his heart still stands out in my mind after all these years. Now, that was before his understanding was enlightened by Maranatha and he started going by his middle name: Leo. Leo Lawson. I cannot equate the Brother I knew with the leader you all have discussed And I posted in this manner so that maybe you could catch a glimpse of the Man of God that I knew...that man's heart would be broken in pieces if he understood the depth of pain caused. My heart still grieves for the innocence of faith lost back in 1976/78 by so many souls My prayer is that someday Leo by the Grace of the Lord, can be seen by some of you as a wayward Brother and not as a henchman. | ||
| wildwood_ Intermediate Member Username: wildwood_ Post Number: 356 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.243.114.35 |
I would like to add just a little tiny P.S. (ah...when I do get a chance to type on the board I tend to ramble)... I do not believe that there is ill will on this board towards any of those in leadership or even towards Butch... But there is a desire that new hearts not be wounded by the same heavy burdens that broke so many years ago....and standing in the light and being seen and speaking openly and lovingly and tenderly calling... does not have to be casting stones... It can be Jesus reaching out to Peter as Peter takes his eyes off Jesus and starts to sink because...Peter noticed that he was in fact walking on water.... Jesus is Lord, His Joy Our Hope...The Father's Love and Faithfulness Our Refuge...The Holy Spirit...OUR COMFORTER...Never Our Accuser...or a salesman... No one needs to be sold out for Jesus...that's silly... You sell out for things that can be "bought"; we cannot buy anything. Jesus "bought" US. We should say "Thank You" and then run around and tell everybody about the Free Stuff that God's Handing Out to His Kids...and yes I think it should be that simple (there are much wiser heads than me with all the details...MCM78, Tikie, Ginger, Hatter, JohnR, Copper, Ulyankee,Lablady, J2t, JIA, Flo, Dilly, SAMEO, Dovey, Dustie etc hey I cannot list everyone I'm not excluding anyone on purpose...BillM 40/40even). Joy...that's why the burdens aren't heavy...He's carrying them... Butch knew all these at 20...and I expect his heart still knows them at what 50ish...ouch...(I'm only 29...holding...)..... So, enjoy and buckle up though...it's kinda a bumpy ride on this message board at times....Nice Views though  | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
It's hard to ramble too much here because of the frustrating size limitations of a post. That was a good story and well presented. I was mildly surprised you were reffering to Leo, so to me you did a good job. It's been a long time since I heard him referred to as Butch, and it still strikes me as funny a little. I saw that Leo quite a bit. I was always amazed at the way he could sit down with someone and "preach" the gospel to them, taking them through the word, and challengs them in a fashion few others could. He was (and is I presume) always outstanding at reaching men in particular I thought. I am not sure how much you've spent time talking or seeing Leo over the years, and it's been a few years for me too, but how do you know his current take on varying beliefs concerning things like tongue in christianity? Since I do pray in tongues regularly, I never encountered any problem with him or anyone else concerning this except the opposite from other religious folks who don't believe in speaking in tongues who foolishly make dangerous accusations concerning this area. I don't think tongues are neccesary, but an added blessing to be sure that for me is essential. It may very well be an issue that keeps people from worshipping in the same church family as their home, but not as a church as a whole. I can't believe he would think a person is unsaved because they don't do so, but there is certainly a communion that exists when people share like beliefs even in these types of things that is unshared by those who believe otherwise. I do see that you are expressing the same view as me in the sense that these people so often crucified here are real people with real lives and families who I know love God and people. I have a lot to say here, and I will over time, but I have a busy life like so many and can only devote so much time on my many different endeavors at once. I am painstakingly reviewing so much info here so I can be well spoken as so many of you are, and address those things I am led to address. So much stuff, so little time..... | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2189 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
that these people so often crucified here are real people with real lives and families who I know love God and people. Good Morning, One thing that you may challenged on is blanket statements, just a warning!  Please specifically tell me (1) who you are talking about (who has been crucified) and (2)how you know that they love God and people. I can only go by what has been reported as factual regarding the finances/homes/ etc of some of the EN leaders. Men living lavish lifestyles on the backs of college students and others does not add up to men who love people, rather they love the money that those people been rooked out of by guilt and false doctrine. Thanks for your thoughts, and looking forward to your reply, Matt | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 871 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
And, Matt, you have really simplified it. It's so much more that they love. They love POSITION, and KINGDOM of the WORLD. They love THEMSELF. I like to repeat a story that happened to me that is true. Corporate prayer meeting. It was getting frustrating, the prayers getting less spirit led, very flesh led. Holy Spirit saying get up, get up, go pray for love. I asked for the mik. The pastor asked me, "what are you goiing to pray for?" I said, Love (please note I was known in leadership and an intercessor with good repuation, so I wasn't wierd). He said, no you can't pray for love, you have to pray for the leaders. I handed the mik back to him. He took it a walked away. However, he did call me back a few minutes later, saying the Holy Spirit convicted him. I'll give him that, but I'm making the point that so much of the time it's LEADERS over LOVE. And just what does that lead up to. More like the congregation getting crucified so that leadership can be glorified. But their glory will not last forever, for God's judgement will come and they will stand condemned for their heavy yoke. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2190 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
They love POSITION, and KINGDOM of the WORLD. They love THEMSELF. You are right, the love of money, lavish life, etc. is simply the fruit on the tree. The root lies in the above statement. It existed in my day, and sounds like the mantle was passed easily in EN. It was that lust for position and power over others that was the driving force in a number of my contemporaries. Very good point. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Hello. Another post too long that I have to split. I will learn to be less wordy, I just know I will. Part 1 and 2 coming. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
That is fair enough. I'll retract my blanket statement and from now on I will only make a blanket statement in response to a blanket statement about EN. What's good for the goose must also be good for the gander. I know what I've read here as I've read many topics, and I know men have been referred to in a negative fashion, and I know this ministry is often blanketly referred to negatively despite the fact it is made up of a large variety of individuals, but I have no desire to compile a list of what is so obvious to me (crucified is probably way too strong and part of my overly flamboyant writing style which I will try and control). Perhaps not by you or even some of those who specifically respond to me, or by moderators. Since I don't want to do that, I will attempt to not do so. My opinion of men who love people include Rice, Leo, Phil, and most of the leaders of EN. That may not stack up in your eyes or others here, but it is my opinion. Facts and figures don't judge a heart as far as I'm concerned. They may expose problems and even sin, but that does not equate to not loving people. I humbly acknowledge that I can not see into the hearts of men as only the Spirit of God can, so in a sense I actually do not know. I myself find fault with the perceived insights into men's hearts I see, so I probably ought not do the same thing in a positive fashion. I will merely respectfully disagree with those who think EN leaders don't love people and move on. I feel if I dredge up a bunch of past posts I'd be wasting my time and not be doing what I'm here for, so I'll try and respond within specific posts and threads, rather than refer to general things I've read and unwittingly begin to attribute things said to individuals who never said them or don't represent this community. I apologize for the generality. To me, the evidence I've experienced in relating to different leaders speaks as loudly as the financial facts speak to you, yet both are merely the fruits we have chosen to base our judgment or discernment or whatever on. You've touched upon the difficulty I encounter here. The facts are what they are and they are often disturbing. I see that and acknowledge that. Some of the conclusions made based on these things are merely opinions and personal discernment, which to me hold no greater value than my own discernment and experience. I'm finding that it will be easier for me to respond to postings and threads outside of this one because the examples that I might want to discuss are to be found within them. I love the facts and I will learn from them and probably, as has been suggested, grow immensely in my insight about this ministry through them. Just in my short time here so far, I'm more open to trying to understand and appreciate why people here feel as they do. The facts and timeline are what really initially "inspired" me to register. I both appreciate and hate them at the same time, if you can understand that. This is after all, FACTNET, not opinionet. I will most likely always be frustrated by the reality that while the intent of this site seems to be to present facts which appear to support certain conclusions, I object to the conclusions despite the "facts". | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Perhaps this very frustration will be my undoing in regards to any support of this ministry I maintain, perhaps not. I'm not there yet though and I can at this point, only base what I think on what I am reading and how it is both presented and what it is used for. I don't deal as well with so called (by me) facts and figures and the conclusions reached through them as I do with things I perceive as the underlying reasons these conclusions are reached in examining these things. That is where I will find myself in, perhaps even opposition to what is being said. I will write some things as if they are generalities, but they will be based on the body of the thread I'm responding within and not simply individual remarks referring to just one posters statements. It's sort of like the old line that I've often heard, and disliked usually, that so and so said the right thing, but the error is in the spirit of how it was said. Just because the facts or statement is a truism doesn't make it or the conclusion reached right, and this is often due to underlying causes. People here seem to be extremely mature and well spoken and I may not seem so speaking as I do, because I appear to be coming from a different perspective both spiritually, theologically at times, and experientially. When I expect to be attacked or disdained I have been responded to with nothing but love so far. I suppose my ire was provoked in some of what I've read and came here almost ready for a fight, but I can see this a thoughtful and mostly loving community. I still must say what I must say, but I must temper my enthusiasm a bit at times and accept the fact that I'll be in the significant minority if not alone. When I compare my ministry experience with so many others here I am surely overmatched and I'm sure many here know that. That would seem to make what I have to say perhaps less valuable or insightful, and it may well be. Yet, as Popeye says- I yam what I yam. That post felt good for me. I'm going to erase my response to sudarats posting thread and start a new one since my initial distaste has tempered a bit. I'm going to instead try and go with smaller posts and ask some questions instead of espousing things as if I already have the answers. Thanks all, for listening to my babbling. Thanks matt-h for keeping me straight here too. I want to be as respectful to all you as you are to me. I really am a bit unsure as to whether I should continue to post here as the value of this site for some of the posters lies, at times, in the very things I dislike about it, and perhaps its not my place to intrude upon this community. I would feel as if I were almost fighting with my own family with some of you, and I dont know if I want to do that. xman3 | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2191 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
Some of the conclusions made based on these things are merely opinions and personal discernment, which to me hold no greater value than my own discernment and experience. While I do agree that this goes on, I am basing my thoughts on the fact that I have known one of the men you mentioned since he was 15 years old. I do not want to rehash that relationship, but it is my personal experience, both in this relationship and my time as a MCM pastor that I speak from. But I do enjoy your thoughtful posts. | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 875 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Xman, Can I make a suggestion to your posting. every few sentencs, make a paragraph. Just because it would be easier to read. I end up skipping over, and I would like to read what you say. It's not that these men don't love people; it's where they place their emphasis in their teaching and preaching. After five years of faithful service, I can say we rarely felt loved. We felt like tools for their vision, laborers but not beloved members. We got so very few loving moments, just assignments. And the preaching of JESUS as LOVE and LOVER of us, well this is not where they go. Eventually, sunday after sunday, we would come home feeling heavy, burdened and far far away from Jesus. It would take all week to get that heavy yoke OFF. Not that anything is black and white, ANd, I don't think we're talking PEOPLE here. I believe its POWERS and PRINCIPALITIES that have taken over to deceive the leaders too. It's a serious spiritual issue. So maybe I should correct myself when I speak. I believe the folks in charge, the pastors, etc. are not walking as God intended but are under the influence of POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES. This is what we are against. I am FOR their restoration, and redemption and I am FOR them to feel God's love themself. But, I stand against the Powers and Principalites that have replaced God's LOVE with another message. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
dust That's a good explanation. I'll take your advice on posting also. IF, what you believe is true, then it is indeed a serious matter to be dealt with. Some might say you are under the influence of powers and principalities though. It's a very difficult thing to for me to accept your belief, and I don't accept it as true. It is food for thought though and would explain your viewpoint. I do see some of what you are saying come through some of the teaching, however. I might even be able to accept that a few individuals have fallen prey to some level of that sort of deception, but that is just the kind of blanket statement I'm cautioned to avoid when you indict the folks in charge as a whole. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2192 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
I would feel as if I were almost fighting with my own family with some of you, and I dont know if I want to do that. Please continue to post. It is not the disagreement and exchange of ideas that causes problems, it is the caustic and hurting comments that may follow a disagreement. I have learned through my own foolishness to try to avoid flame ups, as it detrimental to the factnet community. I am trying to keep serious threads serious, and fun threads fun. You are more than welcome on some of the fun threads, btw. I must say that you are one of a kind, most EN defenders come in with guns blazing, and repeat a mantra, "get over it, you are angry, you are bitter, you are deceived." Veteran posters will chew these posts up into bits, as it is like listening to a broken record. I am so far beyond all of that, and it is frankly an insulting argument. We may have different reasons for posting here, but it is NOT (in most cases)because we are bitter and need to 'get over it'. It has been nice to see someone, who although I may not agree with, present his case in a thoughtful, respectful manner. I think you will find that your responses will be in the same manner. Matt | ||
| john_r_jones Senior Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 1424 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
XM3, I echo the Hatter most EN'ers start out like Dan Ackroyd, "Jane you ignorant ••••..." Then proceed with a diatribe of how we're all losers and seek to scrape their boots of us in disdain. Frankly though I find it amusing mostly because I ask myself, "Why are you here if we're so insignificant?" As I said earlier growth and awareness come from asking questions without predetermined answers in our minds. One of my favorite authors divides people not as lost or saved, or any other consideration but of either being aware or not. To awake from sleeping is something I think we're all called to do, scripture speaks to this in fact. Jonesee | ||
| wisedove Advanced Member Username: wisedove Post Number: 679 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 65.6.100.194 |
Interesting discussions here. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1313 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"Please continue to post. It is not the disagreement and exchange of ideas that causes problems, it is the caustic and hurting comments that may follow a disagreement. I have learned through my own foolishness to try to avoid flame ups, as it detrimental to the factnet community." X-man: Matt always says it so well. There will always disagreements here, and, as Matt says, most of us have learned through our own foolish mistakes that arguing accomplishes very little and is detrimental to the board. However, like a family, it does happen, and when it does, most of us either apologize or agree to disagree, make peace and move on. Sometimes Factnet makes me crazy, and sometimes I make myself crazy on Factnet, but truth be told, I've developed a lot of affection for the people here. I can't comment on EN since I was never a member, so I try to spend my time on the more humorous threads (referred to here as Bunny Trails - don't ask me why). They may not be your cup of tea at this time, but you can learn a lot on those threads as well. I look forward to your posts. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Well, like I said, I was ready to come in with guns blazing actually and the get over it theme has been a part of my post MCM/MSI days, but seeing the way the people here carry themselves and express their views makes that unproductive and unneccesary to me. Frankly, in view of the info gathered and related here, making a defense for some of the practices is hard if not impossible. Its not hard for me to defend many of the people, members and leaders alike though, and I guess I still feel the good outweighs the bad. Having said that, I haven't had the experiences some here have and sometimes ignorance is bliss they say. One of my pastors had what I considered an exhorbitant salary commensurate with the size of our church and it always bugged me, but I just kept pretty much quiet and accepted it as a neccesary evil so to speak. Neccesary because I wasn't going to change it, not that it was "ok". He was and is my very good friend and brother though and in the end it did not serve him well. Until this week, I was unaware of the more serious charges of financial impropriety, though as I said earlier I am not sure where I draw the line in determining what is unacceptable salaries and compensation. A ceo of an organization the size of EN could easily expect to make millions of dollars in salary, and I've always felt pastors were grossly underpaid for their work. Jesus spent a lot of time talking about faithfulness in finances though and it is a sticky issue to say the least. I'd not really seriously ever considered that there might be significant spiritual problems in the finances of EN. I see big problems in a lot of ministries with lavish living and lifestyles, and find it hard to believe that this is the same thing. I can't begin to defend this aspect of things though, because I just don't have enough information or insight. Actually I've spent more time explaininmg myself rather than defending anything because I'm still getting a feel for things here. Apparently my church experience, particulary with MSI was vastly different than what is perceived as the norm and I enjoyed my time greatly and thought it barely even resembled MCM. No controlling, no discipleship type oversight, and little pressure to conform to the greater vision. We had VLI and all that and I guess money did stick in my craw a bit, but I never sensed or found that we were pressured from Nashville over things. Sadly (for me) other completely unrelated circumstances affected our church and I've moved on, but certainly a wiser man for my experiences. I can not say that I'm completely convinced that there aren't influences present here that are not righteous in their origin, but I'm not so critical as I might have been either. Hec, maybe I am unknowingly influenced in some areas of my life and belief so I tread carefully. I don't have the infallible pipeline to God I'd like to have, so I must glean what I can from what is being presented here and form my "opinions" from that. So far I'm impressed for the most part, and I don't think that this particular section is infused with what I believe is some of the garbage I've seen written about some of the other men and ministries. xman3 | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
john r You've dated yourself there with that SNL reference (a show I watched far too often way way back in time). Anyway thanks for the encouragement and kind words. I'll check out some of the lighter topics as this one can indeed get quite weighty. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1065 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.131.10.72 |
Hi All Catching up, Hi XM3 Thank you for your posts. I have read them once, I will go back and read some more. It may be helpful, to leave your lawyer -like mind set a little. If you don't like the conclusions, that well may be but don't throw out expert testimony. Munch on it a little, dwell on it. It is a little like looking at art, or reading a novel in that , not all is cut and dried. I hope this helps.Glad that you are here.} | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 877 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
X: Some might say you are under the influence of powers and principalities though. Dust: I believe that I certainly WAS under some influence of powers and principalities while in EN. Started getting puffed up in a very disfiguring way, MY pastor, MY church, WE are the best. GET TO WORK, PROVE YOURSELF to CHRIST. And, that spirit that was coming on me was NOT ME, was not feeling right, was NOT what I signed up for when I became a part of the Body of Christ. You know how I know HOW WRONG that was and what I was becoming was wrong? I am in a healthy church, and I am so much more humble, less zealous, and I want to HEAR what you have to say. I welcome that we discuss with scriptures together these issues and that we allow God to teach us. You will often see us come under strange attacks here. But that's par for people exposing what I believe to be evil spirits in a ministry. Sometimes our actions, and our postings are not our best behavior, but God's spirit comes in and straightens us out. I see growth in myself and in MANY that come here. We CAN wrestle issues and we can beat some of them to DEATH, but a quick apology and we do forgive each other. This is God, it's a zigzag for sure, but in the end, the Lord has gathered His sons and daughters for a purpose, and for healing. | ||
| sunshinesaint Junior Member Username: sunshinesaint Post Number: 35 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 124.197.13.64 |
Dust - you are a true sister in the Lord...wish you lived close by X-Man - listen to Dusts words about Jesus... I believe that it boils down to His Character and then compare with EN/Maranatha. How do they compare?? Was Jesus as person loud and "in your face"? Was Jesus's ministry one of extra "rules" like dataing outside of the Law? Etc etc...If you are seeking the Lord with your whole heart all these other issues outside of the law should be pretty clear...as Christians we spend too much time mucking around debating this sort of things when we should be on our knees laid our before our KING. EN I believe takes the focus off Jesus, the real King and onto themselves - through all said above and in personal experiences of all here - the sheperding and over zealous discipleship. Issue is: Do and Have they done this deliberately? What is clear is that they have hurt many people...I wonder what Jesus would think of this??? I do not believe we will be discussing this in heaven we will be flat on our faces worshippping the lord, not questioning Him... although the human in me would love to be a fly on the wall when these "pastors" and "leaders" meet their maker...I do not believe it will be a pretty sight - BUT the Word states teachers will judged with a higher std. I fear for their judgement on their behalf...just for a moment. Pause...I personally believe that most are valid Christians who have gotten misled by over zealouness to the extreme!! ISN'T THIS EXACTLY WHAT THE PHARISEES WERE LIKE?? ...rules and red tape...in the name of the Lord... Their actions are complete opposite of what Jesus says, in Matthew 20:20 onwards... (Just like in EN where in the congregation spend time fussing about their 'positions'..and becoming great leaders in the world...to please God...) BUT Jesus said, "instead whoever wants to be great among you MUST be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve." The leaders in EN expect to be served - whenevr I went around to my leader's house I had to her housework, pick up her kids etc etc...THEY ARE USED TO BEING SERVED...seems a little different to Jesus - He was our GREAT leader and yet was NEVER served. I have no problem serving BUT we also need to be wise and smart as to when we are being used!! Hope this helps. PS, I am not bitter about EN I am so happy to be free - perhaps you should visit the "congratulations we are free" post. Being set free from EN has been the most incredible experiencein bringing me closer to who Jesus really is and quite frankly He is opposite to everything I "felt" or was taught in EN. Praise God for setting me free! | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 847 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
xman:Mistakes were and are made and sin was and is committed, but if I could only be a fly on the wall in your lives I think we all know the reality is that it works both ways. Tikie: Actually Christ makes a distinction between the sins of the Pharisees and those of "regular sinners" as He does between sins of the laity and those in leadership. I think the exact quote is "it would be better that they have a millstone hung around their neck and we cast into the sea than to mislead the little ones". Pretty tough language. You see sin can be forgiven but its consequences cannot be avoided. IT is not enough to say "mistakes were made." That is a cop out. Peoples lives are being destroyed. A false chuch, IMHO counter to what is taught in the Bible , worshipping money and exalting worldly status on the backs of those who are trapped and sucked into this. I have an e-mail two days ago from a gal at Auburn whose cousin was recently married into and by EN. She is completely distraught by what she saw and heard at the wedding, as she should be. Sorry- your post is a carbon copy of Bob Weiners non- aplogy apology. It holds no water with me. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1315 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
X-man: As a form of introduction, it would probably help if we had our individual stories on one thread. Unfortunately, we don't. For what it's worth, you can find part of my story related to my MCM experience on the thread "asking for forgiveness", my post #1070. I think it would have been helpful to me if the regular posters had their info on one thread, so you could know who was EN, who was MCM or MCM/EN. Maybe others would like to post the names of the threads that their stories are on. It may or may not be information you want or need. If not, just pass. | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 848 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
x-man:actually very little scripture involved with much of this discussion Tikie- Are you rading my posts; lets have a a go at it EN Quote: we are not a hospital church Scripture:But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise 1 Corinthians EN Quote (Steve Murrell): Mighty men of God...etc etc Scripture:We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 1 Cor EN places great value on "achievement in the world and on appearances (in the letter I got yesterday the author commented on the Pastors Armani suit and the 2-3 carat diamond earrings his wife wore)...EN worships, and I use the word intentionally the NFL players and people like Newsboy they hold up "Stormy" as an ideal contrast this with Romans 15We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! : I am a Calvinist- but I do not hold my Arminian brothers in disregard, I am Protestant, but I do not hold my Catholic brothers in disregards, this is not a matter of doctrinal difference but between a false church focused on men and their goals and those, who however imperfectly seek to emulate Christ and serve the Church. EN exists to serve the wallets and egos of the leadership. And I personally KNOW each of the three founders. | ||
| sunshinesaint Junior Member Username: sunshinesaint Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 124.197.13.64 |
Well Put!!!!!!! Hear hear! Call a spade a spade! | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
sorry-your post is a carbon copy of Bob Weiner's non-apology. It holds no water with me I seriously doubt that it is a carbon copy of anything as it is completely original. I suggest you take the time to read the body of my work rather than quibble with something you don't like as you have missed the boat here. You seem to think your perspective is more valuable than mine which clearly is evolving as I work through this discussion. I thought I clearly stated that I worded my first post (from which I have clearly changed my perspective a bit already) the way I did for some effect. At that point, I didn't know what I'd encounter here so I stirred the pot. I'll probably keep doing so a little I suppose. In this forum it ceratinly is more palatable, but I'm not convinced. I'm glad you think you personally KNOW (or is it knew) 3 of the founders. I feel your anger where I sit. You may think you are above holding those who believe differently in contempt, yet you disdain my post. Sounds like contempt to me, but I digress. Actually, I'm not here to defend MCM or any of the leaders or founders of that group, which I might add, had many positive influences on my life and many others. There were, obviously, many negatives also, but we all know that. I was in MCM over 20 years ago, and I am so much a different person now, and would have to seriously seek the Lord on how to deal with someone who kept a timeline of everything I've done for 20 years and constantly tried to tie all of my current activities to my nefarious past. Having said that, I realize the problem is a real or perceived continuation of these practices, rather than a blatent smear campaign from which there never will be an escape. I'm glad not everyone is the same in the congeniality extended me and my viewpoint so I can remain sharp. Apparantly if something is said that goes against the grain of your virtuous calvanistic or whatever beliefs, it can arrogantly be pushed aside as nothing. I don't mind. I see many of the things you all do, and some I just flat out disagree with. My choice of how to deal with what I have seen and do see is different than yours. At this point, I don't think Jesus would deal with things as some do. Obviously some here think it is Jesus' method. I am living in the present time here, and I say that not to indicate others aren't, but merely to explain that I am only here to present, perhaps, a different perspective of the current EN, which I really don't know that much about. What the difference between MSI and EN is besides a name change I am still learning, but I will still maintain there was very little resemblence between MSI and MCM in my vastly different experience. I must go to work, but I close saying to sunshinesaint- You call a spade a spade. Then Call that disregard (which a claim to be above is made) shown my view what it is, just as you so heartily agree with 1984's other well put statements. There's a lot here and obviously I can't respond to or acknowledge all the responses, but thanks all for taking the time. Its a lot to digest for me in such a short time. I've only been here a couple of days after all. xman3 | ||
| wildwood_ Intermediate Member Username: wildwood_ Post Number: 362 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.243.114.35 |
Greetings xman3....! You said AMEN! That I can relate to...cuz I is what I is...which remarkably enough (or not actually ) is the same Heart I was 30 (ah...except I'm a bit confused about my age being 29....now) years ago when I wasn't 29 but 18...not because of me, but because of the Love of God through Christ Jesus Our Lord. Only I've come especially through this board to understand more deeply & fully just how deeply, how tremendously, how incredibly wondrously FAITHFUL the Lord's Love has been to me...ALL the time...It was not an accident that I "stumbled" onto this board but the Lord reaching out for me as surely as I thought I was reaching out for a friend (and still am). I wish that I had the time to type what my heart has been praying for you the last few days, but it is all good things and Joy. And I hope for time tomorrow...but didn't want to leave tonight without at least a "Hello" back at you. My one thought if you do happen to see this before I get back to clutter it up more....instead of trying to explain EN's viewpoint, just give what yours is....unless that somehow has to be stated differently... Seems like that's what you are really all about anyway. It so much easier to share and to learn...and as tangible as an intangible message board can or probably should be... Exercise discernment or just plain ol'caution because as you say not all eyes who read or fingers that type here have the same hearts...LOL (it was a shock at first...especially when I venture further afield...). But, maybe I said this alread...I think that is a Blessing and a Gift from the Lord...because Jesus Would Walk Among Us...and I have seem HIM HERE A LOT... He has wept with His Children's tears, laughed and sung with silly songs, and hugged us all as One by One we each "search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things are so".... And You Know What...What the Word Says IS SO...Always Has Been...from the Beginning. (Well, I typed more than I thought and said none of what I planned...for a brief "Hi"...LOL Typical for "me"...hmmm, I sound like a hobbit tonight.) | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 199 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
xman3 said Actually, I'm not here to defend MCM or any of the leaders or founders of that group, which I might add, had many positive influences on my life and many others. There were, obviously, many negatives also, but we all know that. Thanks for your post...seems a bit like you are getting the third degree. I am going to ask another question if you don't mind. Do you feel that the balance of positives and negatives was a balance? Or would you have to say that, overall, MCM was a compromised and deeply flawed organization? That just happened to have some positive outcomes also? In Japan the extreme rightists push the view that Japan liberated Asia from colonial rule. I once sense this is true but it was just a lucky outcome of Japan's expansionist but failed view. MCM was much the same. The positive outcomes were just lucky under a fatally flawed rule. | ||
| robert_unknown Advanced Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 947 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 213.33.111.58 |
" A ceo of an organization the size of EN could easily expect to make millions of dollars in salary, and I've always felt pastors were grossly underpaid for their work. " xman, the thing is a church is NO business. i always found it iritating when pastors compared themselves with CEOīs of businesses on one side, and on the other side, they expect people to sacrifice their time into their ministries, and if they get employed the get payed peanuts. there is often a double standart in this area. another problem is, that a church is not a profit-organisation. it does not generate profit by selling/ producing products. they even use the "non-profit" juridical definition, to gain taxation benefits. to compare a pastor with a CEO is also inaccurate, because a CEO holds miuch more responsability, has a better education, a bigger workload, etc...etc... in my opinion the comparision of the church with business proofs to me a lack of understanding what a church is about. i do not mean this personally and i dont say YOU lack this understanding, i am talking generally about this subject. one of the qualifications for leader-/ eldership, that the apostle Paul defines in 1.Timothy is that an elder shall not "love money". there are other several warnings in the bible to avoid the trap of "wanting to become rich". the emphasis on big salaries, is often resulting in greed, false priorities, and questionable use of funds. in my opinion it is more important to come back to a real understanding of servanthood. Christ gave a good example about it, also did the apostle Paul. I dont say, that leaders/ pastors shall earn peanuts. But where is the borderline? As long as they have to hide it from public, and as long as they gain absurd high salaries without the knowledgte of the church, they KNOW themselves, that they steped over the line. people who abuse finances are, in my opinion, not worthy for a leadership position in church! | ||
| maranatha1984 Advanced Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 850 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
X3Man:In this forum it ceratinly is more palatable, but I'm not convinced. I'm glad you think you personally KNOW (or is it knew) 3 of the founders. I feel your anger where I sit. You may think you are above holding those who believe differently in contempt, yet you disdain my post. Sounds like contempt to me, but I digress. Tikie: I welcome your posting here first. Second, I am well known on the board here and my anger is directed towards those who misuse the name of Christ and cause people to confuse Christ with the leadership and the church with EN. I run a small blog and have at least 50 people who have contacted me who have been devasted by EN and the practices there in, who have dropped out of church and have lost their wayt. This is no mere quibble but your position as I read it is "sins were committed and things happen" it reminds me of Lenin's quote on the Bolshevik Revolution "One must break eggs to make Omlettes". This thinking is contrary to that of Christ. I knew/know Rice, Steve and Phil very well, Phil was one of my closest friends...and I write about this in my blog. Rice I worked with and Steve I knew well. Steve, I will admit is an anomaly for me- as unlike Rice and Phil as can be. Having said that you are welcome to FACT. With regards to FACT there are many things that are written here and written in ways that make me cringe it can be heated, insulting and sometimes just plain stupid. But as Winston Churchill said about democracy "it is absolutely the worst form of government that is better than all others." FACT is all we have- and one of the reasons it is so crazy (IMHO) and out of control is the people who post here were controlled by people and will not put up with ANYONE being annointed leader or controlling posts. Thanks again for the post Tikie | ||
| robert_unknown Advanced Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 948 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 213.33.111.58 |
" A ceo of an organization the size of EN could easily expect to make millions of dollars in salary, and I've always felt pastors were grossly underpaid for their work. " xman, the thing is a church is NO business. i always found it iritating when pastors compared themselves with CEOīs of businesses on one side, and on the other side, they expect people to sacrifice their time into their ministries, and if they get employed the get payed peanuts. there is often a double standart in this area. another problem is, that a church is not a profit-organisation. it does not generate profit by selling/ producing products. they even use the "non-profit" juridical definition, to gain taxation benefits. to compare a pastor with a CEO is also inaccurate, because a CEO holds miuch more responsability, has a better education, a bigger workload, etc...etc... in my opinion the comparision of the church with business proofs to me a lack of understanding what a church is about. i do not mean this personally and i dont say YOU lack this understanding, i am talking generally about this subject. one of the qualifications for leader-/ eldership, that the apostle Paul defines in 1.Timothy is that an elder shall not "love money". there are other several warnings in the bible to avoid the trap of "wanting to become rich". the emphasis on big salaries, is often resulting in greed, false priorities, and questionable use of funds. in my opinion it is more important to come back to a real understanding of servanthood. Christ gave a good example about it, also did the apostle Paul. I dont say, that leaders/ pastors shall earn peanuts. But where is the borderline? As long as they have to hide it from public, and as long as they gain absurd high salaries without the knowledgte of the church, they KNOW themselves, that they steped over the line. people who abuse finances are, in my opinion, not worthy for a leadership position in church! | ||
| robert_unknown Advanced Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 949 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 213.33.111.58 |
with one word: if a man wants to earn money, then he shall go and do business. if a man wants to serve through a church office, he can not expect the same income and luxury like a guy who works hard in an business environement. the thing that really iritates me is, when these people use non-profit organisations to gain tax benefits, and use believers to work for free for their vision. they also use qwuestionabel methods to raise funds for their salaries... how does it fit together to use a non-profit/ charitable/ church environement to live a life like a CEO? thats a contradiction in itself. in my opinion the CEO argument is not legitim and shows what these guys REALLY are up to! | ||
| robert_unknown Advanced Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 950 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 213.33.111.58 |
if a pastor gets payed like a CEO, he shall be consequent, and pay his employees also like in a profession outside of the church environement. he also shall not expect people to work for free for himself (lawn mawing, babysitting...) or his church. further he shall pay taxes from the income of his church. another thing to consider is the fact, that the audit EN did on the salaries of their big guys, was done by a copmpany who did compare their positions with secular business environemnts! and they still found that ie Bonassos salary is 66% >TO HIGH<... | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Greetings, I don't at all feel as if I'm getting the 3rd degree because I chose to come here and "stir the pot". I look forward to each response and every question since this is a fresh and exciting site for me righht now. I'm somewhat of a computer nut and this site forces me to pray, read the word and examine my own attitudes before the Lord which is a lot better than wasting my time on much of what I do online etc... wildwood, you are right about expressing my own views rather than trying to defend that which I am finding I know less and less about than i might have thought. Actually, I'm feeling quite a kinship to many of the posters that surprises me a bit, and I like it here, rather than feeling compelled to attack and defend like I may have initially intended. I suspect that many of the posters here were saved through some aspect of MCM's ministry, so that alone is one of the positive outcomes, and if that is just "luck" or coincidence, than so be it. I was saved as a direct result of Leo's ministry and I will never forget that very important fact. My earthly parents have many flaws and I still love and respect them in all their unbelieving glory (although my mom is now saved, but not my dad), and I guess I'll always feel a bit the same towards my MCM "roots". I believe the positives did indeed outweigh the negatives. Without elaborating for the time being, the number of people saved and positively ministered to far outnumber those who left feeling abused and devastated. That in and of itself doesn't excuse anything, but is just my observation. The organization itself was more flawed than it was able to recover from, and it's ultimate demise is evidence of that. MSI, or EN now, is still alive and kicking and I for one believe that the men and the ministry will get it right. We will see about that though. I was never much of a yes man in any of my affilliations and the theology that I disagree(d) with, I just kind of ignored as far as myself was concerned and tried to do what I believed God wanted me to do. Many people don't have that attitude though, and apparently there were many victimized by some of the poor theology and practices. The more I read the many posts, the more I respect the hearts and beliefs of so many of the people. Some I want to just scream at sometimes, and others I sit amazed at the maturity and wisdom expressed. This is unlike any religious forum or site I've encountered, because of the depth of understanding and maturity of the people, and I really like that, whether I agree or not. Every church or denomination on this planet is flawed to some degree. Some more than others, and the seriousness of the flaws talked about here are obviously felt to be great enough to cause people to devote themselves to exposing and ultimately bringing down EN unless the sought after evidence of desired change and repentance is achieved. My initial view was that the overall message I am seeing here is overboard and often the methodology employed is no better than the very things that are being brought to light. I am not going to be so arrogant that I can not be persuaded to change any of my views, but ultimately I'll have to be convinced by something greater than what I've seen so far. Each painful story and experience is gut wrenching though, and I understand why people speak and act as they do. For the time being I'm going to spend quite a bit of time here because I want to, rather than I feel like I need to. I fully agree that I will learn much here and that Jesus is present in many ways, hopefully in me and some of my words, and certainly in many others'. I guess i stumbled into something that will have some value to me that I didn't expect, and that's a real blessing. xman3 | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I must agree with the ceo comparison. As I pondered my statement at work last night, I decided that I stand by my statement about pastors being underpaid (though apparently not some of these it seems), but concluded that buisnesses are there to make money, not serve people. That's a big difference. It was a poorly thought out statement, and it doesn't really stand up as a legitimate argument in this case. I stand corrected. Sometimes I speak before I think. Oops. I'm not surprised at all that so many jumped on that one. You folks are sharp and I don't expect I'll slip much past anyone here. the humbled xman3 | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1320 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"Without elaborating for the time being, the number of people saved and positively ministered to far outnumber those who left feeling abused and devastated. That in and of itself doesn't excuse anything, but is just my observation." X-man: I appreciate the fact that you admit that this doesn't excuse anything, but I find your response troubling. I guess the fact that, on balance, a little more good is done than harm wouldn't be so bad if we were talking about numbers on an Excel spread sheet. Again, churches are not businesses and people are not statistics. The harm that is done to some individuals can take years to overcome, and, unfortunately, the damage doesn't stop with that person. Often, the entire family is affected - parents, siblings, and children - sometimes for years to come. I speak from personal experience. | ||
| robert_unknown Advanced Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 951 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 213.33.111.58 |
thanks xman. i know pastors who definitely are underpayed for their work, compared to a average salary. i do also believe that pastors shall not be "poor", but the boderline got expanded too much into an unhealthy direction, in my opinion. thank you also, for beeing here at this forum. i really enjoy your thoughts and comments, and your way of articulating your thoughts! | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I don't mean to trivialize the sins commited at all. Some are rather serious, others are not so. I did not understand that tikie and maranatha 1984 were the same person either until now. I've read some of the blog, but it's pretty lengthy. That's a lot of people and I didn't know that. In that sense, I see what you are saying. I think I said that because I was a bit heated at first over this site and initially thought it was a lot of sour grapes. Its sort of like sins were commited, but so what. That doesn't excuse what I'm seeing. Now that I've seen more and heard more, I don't see these things as small as I did originally because I believe that I had the wrong impression of what was going on here. As I said, I'm evolving as I go along here in my view of what's happening, and I wouldn't speak so flippantly were I to write the first post(s) at this time. I guess I'd really like to be a fly on the wall and see how some of those 50+ were traeted and affected, and then I'd have a more accurate view of your perspective, rather than judging statements in light of all of our personal flaws and limitations. I don't analyse each statement I make as if it were scripture and some things I say seem to stir up different things in different people for their own personal reasons. I'm learning to be a little more careful each time I speak up here. For now, I'll let these things keep me in check a bit and use them to help me prepare future posts with more diligence. Somewhere down the line, I'll find a way to say some of the more important things I want to say, but I'm being prepared and learning the ropes here at this point. As I learn more and more about many of the posters here, I also am learning more and more how to better say what I have to say to this particular group. I'm finding it more valueable to listen to what others have to say thus far however, rather than just speaking my own peace. It's harder to glean the value and growth that can be found here if I were to just spout off without first listening to the wisdom and experience of others. That's as good as I can explain it for now because the Lord is helping me find my purpose for being here right now. It may not be exactly for the reasons I thought. It might be though... xman3 | ||
| mdillon Senior Member Username: mdillon Post Number: 1016 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.211.22.238 |
in my opinion the comparision of the church with business proofs to me a lack of understanding what a church is about. Robert your posts here on this subject is so strong and right on it makes me want to jump and shout. This is not just a problem with EN, though they have taken it up a few notches, but a plight that seizes the majority of the church in America. Its all about the business. Another note about the CEO comparison is that not only do they take ungodly salaries, but the tax codes allow them to claim a housing allowance that is non-taxable, which over a lifetime is worth several millions of dollars not afforded to the rank and file underlings. The second a church body signs the paperwork for a 501c3 they have become co-opted by our government, no longer sovereign under His Lordship, a tax shelter for the leaders with the rank and file getting their Holy Tax Receipts that saves them a pittance compared to the tax sheltered millions the leaders pile up over time. Take away the tax exempt status altogether first, and we will find out who really wants to play church. Do we really think God needs salaried pastors? Cmon, who are we kidding? The Body lives because of Him, He is the head. Scene just before the Marriage Supper of the Lamb: God gathers all the pastors from their luxury cars, salary perks, and starter castles and makes them line up one by one and go into a room where a small gathering of first century martyrs are having small talk . Can you say awkward Robert, thanks for these posts, you need to write a book on the subject. Xman, Ive enjoyed the exchange and love your spunk. dilly | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1321 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"For now, I'll let these things keep me in check a bit and use them to help me prepare future posts with more diligence." "x-man: It's a message board, not brain surgery. It's important that we all take care in the words we speak and the tone we project, but I hope you can relax a little and not feel as though people are lying in wait for you. In my experience, the majority of the people here don't operate that way. My post was an observation and not a condemnation. "That's as good as I can explain it for now because the Lord is helping me find my purpose for being here right now. It may not be exactly for the reasons I thought. It might be though... " When you figure this out, please let me know. I've been saying the same thing to myself for 5 months now. Peace. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
lablady That's a good point. I'm not merely saying more were helped than hurt so the positive side wins 220 people to 50. What can I say about the people who were hurt. I don't know all their stories, and a lot of the people I knew and know who claimed to be hurt were not as devestated as others. Even 1, I suppose, is too many. I'm not sure if I fully understand the complete responsibility that EN has in many cases. Perhaps I believe we are more responsible for ourselves and what choices we make in regards to church teachings and practices than you and others do. Perhaps I haven't seen the depth of abuse you have. I don't know for sure what the absolute truth is in this regard. I shoulder most of the blame in my own life for what occured in my own life during my MCM days, and it never really occured to me to place so much responsibility for people's situations on other men or the church. At the same time, I also see that the pressures exerted by the leaders were at times, almost impossible for young believers to overcome in the context of our environment. I did not see this pattern in MSI though. I did see it in MCM. Therein lies the difference in my perspective. The reason i said I don't defend MCM paractices or leaders is because of those past things, but I did not realize that these same things were continuing. The only justification for this site would be the ongoing continuation of abuse and control. I guess for me, the jury is still out as to whether this is continuing and that is quite important to my view. Just because I didn't or don't see it doesn't mean its not there. That really is the crux of the issue I think. Maybe I'm being enlightened. xman3 | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 200 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
Obviously this sounds like an attack but that is not really my intention. But to be honest you come across as a MCM apologist. It also feels that you are not ready to accept that a major part of your life was devoted to a cult (of some sorts). It took me 15 years after leaving MCM to admit to even one person that I had been part of a sociological cult. You came close to endorsing the "dating revelation", you basically swept the negative aspects aside as if they were inconsequential....It really feels you have yet to sit back and evaluate from an outsiders perspective. I read your posts but have forgotten - have you ever spent time outside the mcm/ms/en group? Except what may be a growing discontent, you seem enamoured of them. Tikie mentioned getting 50 emails of discontent, abuse, misgivings. That is just the tip of the iceberg. In just my year and a half,I can point to at least 10 people who were messed up. This is out of only about 50 members. I suspect the number would be higher but I just didn't hear the other stories. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1322 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
" Perhaps I believe we are more responsible for ourselves and what choices we make in regards to church teachings and practices than you and others do." I can only speak for myself, and I have said in several previous posts (which, of course, you probably have not read), that I take full responsibility for my participation in MCM. I spent several years post MCM actively trying to figure out my reasons for being there, and I do think that's the primary thing someone has to do upon leaving an abusive or cult-like group. I figured that if I didn't do my "interior" work, I would likely repeat this cycle, not only in the religious areas of my life but in many others. The difference is that I was a follower, not a leader, and leadership assumes a greater responsibility. I accept my part and acknowledge my sin. Those who harmed my family greatly? Well, it's been 25 years and I haven't seen it yet. Does that mean that I walk in bitterness and unforgiveness? Not at all. It's just that I expected pastors and leaders to live by the Word they taught. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 574 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.214.7.242 |
My experience has been that religious groups which teach a "perfectionist" theology foster either delusional (I may sin but I'm not a sinner) rationalization or "play acting" (I can't let people see who I really am or they wouldn't accept me). Of course, we all do that to some extent - it is part of our human condition. But one of the things I've noticed very common among those who leave these types of groups is that immense sense of relief from not having to put on an act or lie to oneself any longer. It's being under constant stress to be something, to live up to an unrealistic expectation where your acceptance, being loved, is dependent upon your performance. When that is gone, wow, what a sense of freedom (sometimes too much, but God is gracious and merciful to draw us back into balance if we'll let Him). Many folks simply can't admit this, not to others, not to themselves. So they go about, all bottled up inside. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 201 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
" Perhaps I believe we are more responsible for ourselves and what choices we make in regards to church teachings and practices than you and others do." That's a bit disingenuous considering many that join are new christians. Of course it is something to aim for but what baby has the knowledge? | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
I forget the exact numbers but don't corporations view one letter of complaint as representing the view of 1000 customers? That means a lot of discontented people in the MCM group. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I think some people ARE lying in wait. Most responders are not. I am relaxed and am enjoying this, though maybe a little hyper at times because its how I am. I want to be more careful because I think I have some things to say that get muddled when spoken in a fashion that elicit responses that show me I have been unclear. If it's happening when I'm really saying almost nothing in particular, it will surely happen if I say something more controversial. I don't feel pressured to be a catalyst to transform this forum into something its not though, although initially I wanted to. I now feel I have "all the time in the world" to share my views as I am led. At first I kind of wanted a quick strike and get out sort of thing. That was pressure, because it doesn't fly well here. I'll try and take your advice though, but i don't want to lose my perspective in the process. It's easy to lose sight of the Lord's workings and even the truth if I get too bogged down in the trauma of other people's experiences. People's lives are the most important thing here, and I would like to better speak in love and grace than I sometimes do, even if I have things to say that don't appear to fit that mold. Must be that old perfectionist demon I was told I had. | ||
| robert_unknown Advanced Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 952 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 213.33.111.58 |
@mdillion i read a study recently. it was about the costs that the "new american churches" face: administration costs, rents, salaries, honorariums, travel-expenses... of course these not all of these costs are necessary. ie its no one forcing a big administration upon a church, but the church itself. these costs have been compared with the "rate" of new salvations in the USA... the conclusion is: in the USA the average costs for every new convert are US$ 300.000,- ! i am not kidding. somehow something is deeply wrong. question is: is there no other way to build churches? i am glad that there are other ways. (Message edited by robert_unknown on December 13, 2006) | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
I don't think I'm a MCM apologist. I also don't think it was a cult. Just my opinion based on my understanding of what a cult is. I just happen to believe dating multiple people is unproductive. I also told you I abhored the "revelation". I may well be an EN apologist to some extent though, we'll see. I have experience within and without this lineage, but most of my time was within, I'll grant you that, and I'm not ashamed of it all. No offense taken in the least. Not everyone will see these things in the same light as others, but I am certainly willing to be taught. Thanks for your take. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1324 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"That's a bit disingenuous considering many that join are new christians. Of course it is something to aim for but what baby has the knowledge?" That's an interesting point. I was not a new Christian when I came to MCM, but my religious background was a little confused - I was raised in both the Catholic church and a Southern Baptist church. I can admit that I had many moments/experiences in MCM that probably should have given me pause, things that just didn't "feel right". In fact, they did give me pause, but I chose to ignore them or dismiss them as really not being all that important. Obviously, a big mistake, and I've learned since to trust my gut, my first impression. It's interesting that my husband, who also had a denominational religious background, visited a fellowship much like MCM in his late teens - the age I was when I was first exposed to MCM, and turned on his heels and walked away almost immediately, recognizing the b.s. for what it was. I've often wondered how some people were able to see a lot of the craziness for what it was while others of us weren't. I'm not sure that being a "baby" Christian would make you any more vulnerable. I would guess that the majority of us in MCM had some previous religious background, and still, we were there. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Though I'm not ashamed of the fact I was in MCM, which I have said multiple times had characteristics that were in error and cultic and stated I won't defend, I am ashamed at much of what happened in that ministry to too many people. I didn't cause any of those problems though, so I would fall into the victim class if anything. I feel I should state more clearly if there is any question in anyone's mind that i don't endorse or defend MCM. That aspect of my life played a part in my coming here because I was looking up people from way back then I've lost touch with. That's all. I don't believe EN and MCM are the same thing though. Don't anyone confuse my statements about EN with MCM. They're not the same to me. Hope that's clear, but if any see it otherwise I'll just accept that perspective from here on out. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 203 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
I don't think I'm a MCM apologist. I also don't think it was a cult. I can't judge mcm's status as a religious cult but as a sociological cult I would rate it as worse than scientology and almost up there with the moonies. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 204 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
I'm not sure that being a "baby" Christian would make you any more vulnerable. I would guess that the majority of us in MCM had some previous religious background, and still, we were there. I agree with you labby, there were plenty of people with religious experience but at what point do we actually have knowledge enough to make an informed decision? In my case, other than a christening at 6 weeks of age,I had NEVER been inside a church. And even for the more stepped in religiosity, I doubt many had ever felt the need to examine the message so closely. There aren't many of us who are educated well enough to realize we need to examine and measure ALL that we hear. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1251 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
btw, I wanted to extend my sincere greetings as well to you xman3... I'm not lying in wait lol and while I've been kind of keeping up with this thread I admit haven't really taken the time that it requires to be able to truly engage in a discussion here. Like Dust I do appreciate posts being broken up into shorter paragraphs b/c I I was having difficulty with the longer posts - my poor aging eyes were going a bit haywire  and as a result I haven't gotten through your original posts yet. But I did want to at least say hi. That's an interesting statistic, Robert, and also I wonder how much of that $ is going toward truly new converts vs. transfers between churches, and where the $ is coming from. Can you imagine if that $ was spent on missions, or the poor, oh wow or the poor. One thing I will definitely say for Every Nation is that as of late it seems their growth in terms of church plants has been outside the US (not counting the Nashville area church plants, that is--there's several more of those too in the last 2-3 years now), and that the newer churches especially in Asia, the Middle East, etc. tend to be in countries that are largely unevangelized. EN's rationale for reaching "every nation in our generation" (Great Commission vs. Apostolic/Dominion/Cultural Mandate) is probably another topic for another day (or thread since there are threads devoted to that topic), but I know I've tended to pay more attention to what has been going on in the US, so last night I scanned through the intl directory to look at churches which have been added in the last year or so. I know that EN's missionaries in these countries truly have a heart for the Lord, a burden for those nations, and sacrifice a great deal personally to be able to raise the support to go. My late father in law used to go crazy about his denomination, which is one of the oldest "classical Pentecostal" denoms... while there were people who really took the Great Commission to heart, the prevailing attitude in his perspective was that prospective pastors tended to view Bradley County, Tennessee as their mission field. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2203 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
"x-man: It's a message board, not brain surgery. Lab, you made a couple of posts that were almost the same thoughts going through my head, so I don't need to repeat them. Let your thoughts fly, x-man, it's cool. I will say that I agree totally with Dilly about Robert's assessment of the CEO thing. Some EN study came out (ULY help me here) about Phil's salary would be commensurate to a CEO blah blah blah. Here's the deal: Upon graduation from Auburn U. with a degree in history, he went from selling shoes at PicNPay, to commission sales of metal buildings, (he did not sell one building as I recall) to working for Firestone selling tires. Noble work for many people with degrees in history and sociology. The chances of him becoming a major CEO with this educational background would be slim to none. The logic behind that study was faulty to say the least. Becoming a 'CEO' within the MCM structure was a perfect way for someone like him to make a great living. He told me to my face that this thing was cultic but it was the only way to control these folks. Just another thing that kept me up at night after I became a pastor. Think about the struggles a young idealistic couple like my wife and I had when we heard things like this. The remnant lessons of these experiences have not left me bitter or jealous at 'Nasso's luxurious lifestyle. The experiences have told me to throw up a red flag every time I hear a preacher bragging about his prosperity, because I know he has attained his wealth on the backs of others all the while claiming it is from God. One only needs to remember the cleansing of the temple story to know what may be in store for those who, as 'leaders' fleece the lambs. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
My view of a cult, I suppose, centers on what is preached about salvation in relation to Jesus. The reason I don't feel it was a cult is because people really got saved, filled with the Spirit, and that sort of thing. In no way do I view it as bad as scientology. Having said that, it fits the bill for what you call a sociallogical cult and many of the techniques employed also fit the bill. I am speaking from that more narrow religious perspective. I don't at all disagree with your assessment for the most part, and have no problem saying it was a cult or anything else one wants to term it in that sense. I read someone else's point on that same topic and their definition of a cult and why MCM wasn't one and saw the responses and have no problem with the prevailing view here. I guess I'll have to accept the fact that I am in the minority in believing it was not a religious cult. This place is the first time I ever heard of a socialogical cult. I remember so many times sitting in "counseling" sessions where it seemed the councellors were not satisfied until I accepted what they said and acted like they wanted. It was almost the only escape from the situation. That's the kind of pressure I feel here in regards to my view, as if I'll be labled a certain way unless I fully accept it was a cult. I must not realize the damage done and how I was controlled because I won't attatch that label. Given enough time, and maturity I'll come around when I see how a good church works.. Well its been over 20 years of serving God and I still don't see it that way yet. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 205 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
I just happen to believe dating multiple people is unproductive. The dating revelation as such never affected me. I was happy not to have to worry about it for a while, BUT that doesn't mean that it was correct. I should have the freedom to date one or 20 people if I see fit. The idea that a group can dictate my actions is abhorrent. I should be guided by my own morals or those of the god I believe in. This sounds like I had a big problem with the dating thing but actually I didn't. I think it is just indicative of the control MCM sought to excert upon a bunch of naive children. We can make our own decisions, be it upon on own judgements, or consultation with our parents or pastor, or our god. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1325 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"I don't think I'm a MCM apologist. I also don't think it was a cult." x-man: I don't know many pastors in a denominational church who would ask to see my checkbook, pressure me to pay a 20% tithe, or show up on my doorstep to escort us to a meeting because we had been late on a couple of occasions. I don't know any denominational church that would close down a local fellowship, give the members a list of names of college campuses and tell them they have 5 days to pray and get a word from God as to where they should move. Not IF they should move, but where, and tell them that this is not to be discussed with anyone (as in rational extended family members outside of MCM). And, if I am remembering right, those who did not move were "goats and not sheep". I don't know any denominational church who would require this of you and then disfellowship you because your baby was born prematurely and almost died -according to MCM, due, of course, to the sin in my life - when, in reality, his troubles were most likely due to the stress of the move and the lack of prenatal care due to a loss of medical benefits when we gave up our job to move. I'm pretty sure that qualifies MCM as a cult. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Matt That's a pretty tough thing to hear. Just another example of insight you and others have that I don't. That probably would have driven me off, and I can't even imagine being a pastor under that way of thinking. How could you even stick it out after that sort of thing? That's kind of a ridiculous view, and quite disturbing. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
lablady More disturbing stuff. In some sense, I've almost forgotten some of those old tactics and practices because they were so long ago. Some of the horror stories you "guys" know of are just awful. I'm glad I never "rose" into any higher levels of leadership. It dissolved in the nick of time for me I guess. Hard to believe pastors would buy into that trash. It is just plain awful. What more can I say. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1326 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
x-man: If you need verification of the story regarding my son, you can dig up an old copy of the Forerunner, probably an issue from the summer of '81. Of course, the MCM spin was that my son nearly died because our family was under attack because my son would "be a prophet to the nations". In reality, he will be an engineer as soon as he finishes college. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 206 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
I remember so many times sitting in "counseling" sessions where it seemed the councellors were not satisfied until I accepted what they said and acted like they wanted. It was almost the only escape from the situation. That's the kind of pressure I feel here in regards to my view, as if I'll be labled a certain way unless I fully accept it was a cult. I must not realize the damage done and how I was controlled because I won't attatch that label. Given enough time, and maturity I'll come around when I see how a good church works.. Well its been over 20 years of serving God and I still don't see it that way yet. A little passive aggresive aren't we? I don't seek to convert you to my way of thinking. As a non-christian I won't discus the religious "cultic" factors of MCM but by your own admision MCM engaged in many cultic practices, sociological cultism. If you sat in sessions as you say, you have to admit it was cultic. And if that was the basis of their "ministry" all the fruit should be examined. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 207 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
The reason I don't feel it was a cult is because people really got saved, filled with the Spirit, and that sort of thing. But I would question the number of people who got "saved". Many people ran to, or stayed in, MCM for reason/needs beyond Christ. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1327 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"In some sense, I've almost forgotten some of those old tactics and practices because they were so long ago." Yeah, maybe if my son hadn't nearly died, if we hadn't been left with a $22,000.00 bill, if I didn't have to still look at the large scars on my son's chest, and if I hadn't had to work for years to forgive myself for the guilt I felt for being complicit in my son's near death, I could have probably forgotten those old tactics, too. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2204 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
How could you even stick it out after that sort of thing? I didn't stick around. But it did take some time. Planning an exit strategy was going on the whole time I was a pastor, even unknown to my wife. You have to understand the cultish sociological pressure of this group (at the leadership level) to know that a young pastor of a dying church would never stand up and say, "This is WRONG!" Survival was the key for me, and survival came through a humiliating resignation, a move 900 miles away to a truly foreign land (Ann Arbor MI) and eventually with the love of our dear friends the Caulks, a move back to our home state. (saw them recently, wonderful people). We all had secret plans back then, I am sure. I am letting you in on mine. Too bad mine just didn't involve getting rich, I should have sung "Lift Your Vision Higher" a few more times, I suppose!  | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1252 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
matt: here's a quote from the 8 April 2006 communique:
xman3: Some time back I discussed a similar issue--"what is a cult?"--with a Christian "cult expert" on the ad hoc committee that Maranatha invited in during the 1980s--so his take was from a Christian, theological perspective. He believed that if it was possible to be or stay a Christian in the group, then it wasn't truly a cult, no matter how harmful or controlling it might be. However, it could be "cult-like" if it used thought/behavioral control tactics or engaged in spiritual abuse more often used by "cults" even though the group could still be considered theologically "Christian." He further believed that if MCM had made the changes recommended by the committee, then it wasn't a cult, but that without those changes (which he believed it didn't really make other than on the surface) it teetered on the edge between being a theological cult and a Christian group which used "cult-like" techniques to attract, retain, and indoctrinate members. (Message edited by ulyankee on December 13, 2006) | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1328 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
matt: made me laugh. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 208 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
Dear Labby, I had heard what happened with your son before and felt for you when I heard it BUT I didn't realize that it had been used to feed the MCM/Forerunner machine. Truly disgusting, it brings tears to my eyes. The cynicism is sickening. May he grow to be a good and respected man. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1525 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 4.182.234.238 |
xman3 I saw a lot of sincere christians in MCM. I view MCM more like a messed up church. Questioning leadership was the same as questioning God, they may not say that to you but it was implied. They also wanted a person to die so MCM could live it was not just about Jesus. In the mid eighties I did not see the horrific stories that are being told but that is just my experience. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1329 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"May he grow to be a good and respected man.' Your prayers (so to speak ) have been answered. He's a wonderful son and a good person. We keep a copy of the Forerunner in his baby book; serves as a good reminder as to why I will make my own decisions and trust my own judgement. After all, no one else paid the consequences of those decisions, just our family. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 209 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
Matt, it would be interesting to know how many "staff" had an escape plan. It was the rank and file as well. Mine was being discussed with a dear friend just 6 months after joining. The final plan took 6 months to implement, with a move back to my parents house before a move to another city. What makes it a cult is that we had to even hide these ideas, to engage subtufuge. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2205 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
Although the Capin Crouse report found that Phil and Karen's combined salary was overpaid by a total of $22,798 over a three-year period, it should be noted that the report stated that Phil could have earned an additional $45,000 over this same period in the position he held if he had an MBA or equivalent corporate experience. In any event, as was stated in Palm Springs, Phil has agreed to repay the above-mentioned amount of $22,798. And those big bullfrogs down at my folk's pond had wings, they wouldn't bump their a$$es as they were trying to escape my gig. This type of reasoning is pure poppycock. He has a degree in history, not an MBA. Again, a pastor is like what I do for a living, a counselor. I am not a CEO with profit sharing, that is my choice, and that is what a pastor should expect going into his profession! | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
Ah yes. Ann Arbor and Mr. Caulk. Imagine the spin I received living in East Lansing at this time. Quite a bit different than yours I imagine. Their's was a major split and problem for us as I recall. Ah, such fond memories. I can see why this site would cause someone to erupt as they had earlier said. I forget who said it now though. Rarely do I change my perspective on important matters based on other people's stories, but I have to say that I am detesting much of what I'm hearing here. Funny (and I don't mean humorous) how insulated one can be from so much, even in the very midst of the storm. I have a rather clear recollection of that entire incident now, which I'd long ago forgotten, and your view is quite different from what I heard. Of course, having said that and heard so much it begs the question for me now- is this stuff still continuing in EN? | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 210 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
| ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 211 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.229.247 |
With all due respect 40, I think there are a number of us here who were having "horrific" experiences in the mid eighties. I can understand that your experience wasn't that way but for many it was. My experience wasn't so bad as to endanger my life but bad enough that out of almost nowhere I am back discussing issues from 20 years ago...and not out of nostalgia. But my friend who recently had his marriage disintegrate...it could well be attributed, in part, to what MCM did to him. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 575 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.214.7.242 |
Well, one could argue about that as well. However, as someone else has pointed out, you need to explore the sociological aspects of a "cult" as well as just the theological aspects of it. Spiritual abuse can occur anywhere just as physical or sexual abuse is not confined to socially ratified marriages. There *are* those pastors in mainline churches who are spiritually abusive, though it seems to be predominate in those places that teach "pastoral rule". Google the term, in quotes, "spiritual abuse" and see what you find. I was not in MCM very long, not like a lot of folks here, but long enough to have seen a lot of phoniness. I've posted my experiences at staff meetings elsewhere along with the joy of playing B'ball with Bob W and some of the other senior "leaders" and don't really want to rehash it here. Suffice to say if you had to pick folks who reminded you of Jesus, these guys just weren't it. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
All these quick posts and such, and now while I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for an answer, silence. AAArrgh! I ceratinly see how MCM would be viewed as a cult by the definitions offered here, and although it may not fit the narrow religious definition I generally use, it becaomes even more difficult to even give it that much credit. Never-the-less, I have been aware of much of this stuff, though almost forgotten now, and I have a hard time lableing it a cult in the sense of examples I would choose for cults. These examples, though they don't really meet that particular criteria, are in a strong sense even worse than what might happen in a group I would label as such. As heart breaking as these tales are, and they are, I will sign off for now and check in later on any responses, but I will ask again in parting- are these things continuing in EN. I would like to know if that is the case, since I never intended to defend MCM anyway, and once again I see why afresh. I better understand why there is such trepidation regarding these men even today after some of what others have gone through. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2206 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
What makes it a cult is that we had to even hide these ideas, to engage subtufuge. Excellent point, Odan. I told a former pastor about 8 years ago that we were changing churches, mainly because his church had a very weak youth program, and our son was about 10 at the time. He wished us well, and we still go out for dinner with friends from that church. My best friend here at work is a deacon at our old church, yet we still meet with each other frequently for lunch and have times of prayer in our offices. This COULD NOT, WOULD NOT happen in those MCM days, and I think from testimony from folks like dust, things haven't changed much in the Holy Shrine of Nashville under EN. Cult? Cultish behavior? Matter of semantics. It was, and is wrong, and not an example of the Body of Christ. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 576 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.214.7.242 |
To put it mildly. You know, if I had a PhD in computer sciences and programming, over the last 25 years I could have earned a few million dollars more. Now that makes as much sense as the line of reasoning they've used. I wish I could remember the formula we used for determining pay when I was at Lexington. It was a certain percentage of each offering, so the more that was given the more we made. You can see where a "leader" might have a little conflict of interest in terms of advising his "flock" on being financially responsible. In the short time I was there, I not only paid for all my living expenses, but was able to save enough money in, I believe, six weeks to pay for a mover to pick my stuff up from the "staff house" and haul it back down to Athens. I had approx. 1000 lbs of goods in those days, which wasn't all that cheap to have someone else haul. Of course, I never let anyone know I was actually saving money - boy, that would have been a testimony to my "lack of faith". Mattie, do you have a special recipe for cooking those frogs you gig? Would you be willing pack a dozen or so on dry ice and ship to a neighbor as well as share that recipe? Frogs legs. Man, that would taste good right about now!! | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 1526 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 4.182.234.238 |
Roger that Osakadan. Still even if your church was pretty good leaving is tough if you bought into the destiny thing which you assumed was suppose to be through MCM. There was a sense that if you left you were walking out on Gods best plan for you or even God himself if you were not well grounded. I can see why people have had nervous breakdowns when leaving something like this even though that did not happen to me but I know some it did happen to. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1330 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
"I've almost forgotten some of those old tactics and practices because they were so long ago." When my son had emergency surgery at Childrens hospital, he was left with 3 - 1/2 scars on his tiny chest. However, as he grew, so did the scars. Today, at almost 6 feet tall, these irregular, ugly scars (stitched in haste) are prominent and only in recent years has my son begun to accept his disfigurement. When he was small, I would sometimes cry as I bathed him or took him to a pool party or the lake and watched him swim with his shirt on. I remember having more than one mother-son chat, reassuring him that, yes, one day some girl - the right girl - would love him just as he is, scars and all. You mentioned thinking that perhaps people here were angry and bitter and couldn't let go. Believe me when I say that I was never as angry at MCM as I was at myself for what I, his mother, had allowed to happen. Your post made me realize that, as painful as it has been at times, those scars were a daily reminder to me to be my own person and to make my own decisions. More important, they served to remind me that my actions and my words could impact the lives of others in a either positive or negative way. They reminded me not to be so quick to be judgmental about peoples choices, to make assumptions about the "sin" in their lives. I didn't have the luxury of "forgetting old tactics and practices" and today you've reminded me that I should be thankful for that. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2207 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
Well, I have deep fried them but now just grill em, you know, heart healthy stuff now! It is so loud at night when I am fishing with the bullfrog croakings that you could not call it "peace in the country". OK, sorry for the diversion. I honestly have had difficulty labeling it as a "hard core-moonies-type" cult myself, I really don't know if the wording is worth the discussion, at least to me. What I do know is that very few have come out of this thing with pleasant memories, except for the ones who have made and are making tons of greenbacks. (Message edited by matt_hatter on December 13, 2006) | ||
| robert_unknown Advanced Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 953 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 213.33.111.58 |
xman, others and i have done much research, and we have proof that the theological roots in some of the main aspects of ENīs "theology", or let it say in a better understandable way "worldview" (there is no real defined and common theology in EN) is in NOLR and therefore the foundation of many of the sociological problems... i linked the thread in one of my posts here... | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 878 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
X, How do like all this attention? Must be for a good reason. For the record, I did NOT get saved at EN, and anyone I did help lead to the Lord, NEVER STAYED at EN. I could never figure that. But, now I'm grateful. Perhaps later I can elaborate on this is a subthread. I am not MCM, EN leadership only, and very much was a part of the way the ministry does things now. I am in my gifting and heart, a passionate evangelist, so I thought I was in the right place. EN's methods for evangelism are converts making converts making converts through formula cell group model. As an evangelist, this is wrong. The Holy Spirit is REMOVED from the process. It becomes men converting men with a MIND change, not a SPIRIT change, which can only be done with the Holy Spirit. This was the main reason I had to leave. I could not be a part of building the kingdom MAN'S way and for Man's glory. REGARDING the CEO/Church leader thing. I come from corporate America. Had our directors done the things with the books that this leadership has done, they would be probably be in jail, and due to our freedom of the press, it would be made known. ANd, for example, once a grave sin with money is commited, they wouldn't continue to get paid (paid from the pockets of the members) the way that Phil B. STILL COLLECTS a very healthy six figure salary. In business, this wouldn't happen. And, additionally, in business, a good organization will promote and properly pay its rank and file. Also, they would not be able to use and abuse membership for a lot of FREE work, while they made sure they were collecting big salaries. So, they want the glory of THINKING they are great business men, CEO types (such big egos) and yet they break all the rules that are standard in the business world. They do it with the WORST POSSIBLE FORM OF MANIPULATION. They use God, and this is a very serious offense. The best way to LOVE THESE MEN today is NOT to be quiet, not to cover, but to cry out to them to repent for their own souls. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1070 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.150.110.209 |
Hi All-Catching Up, Xman , You asked , if this stuff was going on in En. Well, Robert-unknown was an En pastor Dust- was a recent member of the flagship of En ,under Rice Brooks at Bethel Ul was in an En church Dove was in an En church I hope that this helps. I know how you feel though , I was a bit overwhelmed at first. I am glad that you stayed and listened.Keep posting and I know you will be thinking, and taking things in. And then you will make up your own mind, that is the best part of freedom. } | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 879 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
I was reading one of the letters Paul wrote and this really hit me, the contrast of Paul and any sermon in EN. The Blessings of Ephesians chapter 1, tells us: Ephesians: God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing. EN: We are to bless EN with our financial blessing. Blessings are seen in terms of money. Spiritual blessings are judged by EN. Ephesians: In love, God has adopted us as sons and daughters and freely bestows on us His grace. EN: Grace is a term very diminished, EN teaches that God freely bestows his rebuke. Ephesians: God has redeemed us and lavishes us with his grace. EN: This church has redeemed you and we don't preach a grace message here. That's the church down the street. Ephesians: We have an inheritance in Christ and we are sealed in Him. EN: You may lose your salvation and if you don't do what we say, you lose your standing with Christ. Ephesians: ALL things are in subjection under His feet, and Jesus is head over all things on each. EN: All the members here are in subjection to the leadership, who is your head, even before your husband. Just to believe this alone in the first 23 verses is counter to the way EN teaches. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 2209 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
So, they want the glory of THINKING they are great business men, CEO types (such big egos) and yet they break all the rules that are standard in the business world. Bingo!! We have seen stories about top level government/executives using illegal immigrants for domestic help and paying them under the table, and it usually results in their demise. These folks use some cockeyed religious reason for abusing help, by calling them "handmaidens", like it is some kind of ministry gift. Clean your own toilets, we do. It is truly the worst form of manipulation to invoke our Great God into a scheme to make one's life more "comfortable". Called to serve, not to be served!! | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 880 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Right Matt. Since I left EN, I have gotten heavily involved in community projects that feed the hungry, lodge the poor, and I was simply shocked to see how MANY churches group together here in WIlliamson County to provide for families. Rice says it takes the "WHOLE church to reach the WHOLE world. I say it takes the REAL church to reach the REAL LOST, poor, sick and needy. At every event I am at, distributing Christmas gifts, etc. I never see anyone from an EN church. I don't blame them; I would have felt very GUILTY to be out in the community doing these works of charity. Why? We were very discouraged from fraternizing outside of EN and with other churches or projects. It was a very sheltered existence. Most of the real "serving" hearts of EN are too busy serving pastors so no time to meet the real needs of the community or they have been put in a mindset that it's disloyal to go out and be involved in outside projects. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 577 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.214.7.242 |
Better yet, clean the toilets of some of the people in your "churches" who aren't physically able or don't have time to. Clean up after a supper (my priest often does, though I hate to see him half to do it. While I don't believe pastor's of a church should have folks "fetching and carrying" for them, neither do I believe they should be dumped on and treated like the church's hireling when there are lots of able bodied folks around). Listen to the Lord's words in the Gospel of John: And also these, from the Gospel of Mark: Don't give me "ruling and reigning" and "God's anointed" teaching based on OT scriptures. Let me see you do the words of Jesus! It's not those that hear the word, but those that keep it who are blessed of God! (Luke 11:28) | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1071 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.132.118.74 |
Hi All and X man, I am in much awe of lovely wisdom that I see here: Dust -Thank you for posting here, I refer in singularity to # 878, but in whole I rejoice, Here you talk about, En taking the place of the Holy Spirit in men's lives. You said so well: God is removed from the process.." It becomes men converting men with a MIND change, not a SPIRIT change, which can only done with Holy Spirit ." This would be my major charge against them and the most dangerous. } Xman -that is why you had such long sessions with them. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1072 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.132.118.74 |
Hi Lab Lady Than you so much for your involvement here ,and your sharing your wisdom and posts here. Your post #1330, especially hit home with me. It was about the scars,on your son , that was profound, to say the least. Thank you.} | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1331 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
copper: Thanks. Had to admit, it brought up some emotions...again...that I wasn't exactly prepared for. Also, I forgot to add one very important point in that post. It seems that x-man was able to leave MCM relatively unscathed. Please correct me, X, if I am wrong, and if that's so, I am happy for you. I would not wish an experience like mine on anyone. However, it's important to realize that MANY who post on this board, not just me, left with painful reminders they live with to this day. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1073 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.132.118.74 |
Hi LL, I think that X man is more affected than he knows, he said some things were setting home to him. I was like first when I first came here, but as I read and saw more, the very present loving Shepherd showed me more. Not unlike what you felt today. I think that it unending process, as Paul said, not to let any man think that he has arrived..} | ||
| dust Advanced Member Username: dust Post Number: 883 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Matt: I am not a CEO with profit sharing, that is my choice, and that is what a pastor should expect going into his profession! Dust: They go out and seek "leadership" material, and they take giftings that the world loves, dress them up to look like spiritual giftings. This is not led by the Spirit and it's dead works. Maybe such a person can even preach the gospel as they could deliver a good sales presentation or ad campaign. The problem: Gifts and leadership do NOT move heaven. Faith moves heaven. Gifts can grow a church population, but not move heaven. Gifts can raise a lot of money and even implement fine schools, but not move heaven. Gifts can win political offices, but not move heaven. Faith moves heaven. There is no faith when men think it takes MBA, lawyers, doctors, mayors, CPA's, scientists, and entrepreneurs to build a church and take position. That just builds a worldly vision that never really satisfies. That's why there is NO HEALING in these churches, but betrayal. There are no MIRACLES, NO REVIVAL, for there is no Holy Spirit. There is just a bunch of good looking, well versed, positioned money makers, with outgoing personalities. But they are not moving heaven. That takes faith in God and faith in God cannot be replaced by faith in men. | ||
| jesusisawesome Advanced Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 657 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Hi Xman, and welcome to the board. My story is posted in scattered bits and pieces here and there over the board, and I am "Alaina" in Tikie's blog, where my experiences with this ministry are summed up. I walked away years ago and left all of this behind, thinking my path would never cross with this ministry again. Posting my experiences on a public forum is a decision that I wrestled with, and one that was not made lightly. Within the past couple of years, I have 3 friends that were all in leadership positions (leaders that I worked with, and that were known for their years of dedication and faithful service) that left due to control and abuse of authority. These 3 friends have been involved with this ministry from MCM days all the way through the current EN . . . and they have very painful stories. (Hopefully, one friend in particular will be sharing her story soon.) As I've walked with them and heard their stories, it has been a repeat of my own story in many ways, only their experiences are over a longer period of years, spanning the full history from MCM to EN . . . for all 3 friends. As one of these leaders stated to me a couple of months back when we were discussing EN trying to deny the past and say they've changed and are different, "Give me a break, it's the same thing." I did a lot of soul searching and praying before ever posting on FactNet, and it is the story of my 3 friends that has been the motivating factor for me to be here. History has a way of repeating itself if the lessons are not learned from it. What I see is that the abuse has not just been limited to a few people. I can sit and count off of the top of my head a dozen people I know that were hurt through the abuse and control and false accusations . . . these are first hand stories of people that I knew. It is very serious stuff. From an international student(struggling financially) that was kicked out of Phil Bonasso's church because he didn't tithe, to a girl that was accused of jezebel and witchcraft and sent home from an outreach, all because she was giving her opinion to a "leader" on the best driving route to go. Then there are the stories that I don't know personally, and the ones that left because as leadership said, they "couldn't cut the grade". In all of my years of involvement, I can only recall one couple that left (at least in my circle), that had the blessing of this ministry. Every other couple or individual I know that left was looked down upon as giving up on their 100% commitment to God and becoming compromisers, regardless of the reason. During my years in this ministry, I've also watched new baby Christians that weren't "sharps" leaving in worse condition than they were when they first joined this ministry. Personal observation: The walking wounded that join have a tendency to become even further wounded, rather than receiving the healing balm that Jesus would have applied. | ||
| jesusisawesome Advanced Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 658 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Xman, I want to share with you that the board here has also helped me personally. The Lord did a tremendous amount of healing and restoration in my life over the years from the pain of being blackballed and called a jezebel, but there was some residual stuff that I was set free from through the support and love shown by former pastors that are posting on this forum. I am thankful for this now, but I would have loved to have had a place like this to come to years ago. My healing and restoration would have probably taken place at a faster rate. Regardless, I am so grateful to the folks here that are sharing and caring. Jeremiah 23 is a serious warning for those that would abuse His sheep. If there wasn't some serious abuse going on, this place wouldn't exist in my personal opinion, and God is using this forum to help the confused and hurting. I don't agree with everything that is posted here, and I have also posted comments that I regret posting, but this is a place where there is freedom to speak, and freedom to exchange ideas without censorship. Something else I am deeply grateful for. | ||
| jesusisawesome Advanced Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 659 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
84: "there are many things that are written here and written in ways that make me cringe it can be heated, insulting and sometimes just plain stupid" . . . "one of the reasons it is so crazy and out of control is the people who post here were controlled by people" . . . JIA: Leadership said "jump". I said "How high do you want me to jump?!" Then upon leaving this ministry I had a "knee-jerk" reaction to any threat or hint of control . . . a natural reaction when you've walked through an abusive situation. It's a great observation Tikie makes, and I think he's right on in the comparison to what is happening here. Hopefully those that have not walked through this abuse can really hear with their hearts, and not just write this stuff off because it wasn't their experience. It can sometimes be very hard to understand and show empathy to someone until you have walked in their shoes and experience what they have experienced. A lack of personal experience does not invalidate the abuses that have occurred. | ||
| jesusisawesome Advanced Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 660 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Lablady: people are not statistics. The harm that is done to some individuals can take years to overcome JIA: Jesus stopped for the one, and emphasized the importance of the one. Matthew 25:40 - To the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even to the least of them, you did it to Me." | ||
| jesusisawesome Advanced Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 661 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Lablady, thank you for sharing your personal experience. The MCM spin and resulting disfellowship . . .  . . . I'm sorry for what you and your family have had to go through Lablady. I'm glad that you are hanging out with us. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.89.98.94 |
|
