If Not Homestead Heritage, Then What?

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Author Message   mommyof2boys New member Username: mommyof2boys Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.109.143.26 Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 1:47 pm:        My husband and I are pretty new to this area and at one time we considered joining HH. After praying about it and finding out more about HH (a lot of good info here!), we've decided against it. HH has so many qualities that we were looking for in a church, but if they are not Bible based and Bible believing, we have no interest in joining. Now the dilema we have is locating a church. We were drawn to HH for several reasons. 1.) Their way of living, IE: farming community, raising their own foods, etc. 2.) I have been convicted to wear dresses only, while I know this is not for everyone, it's how the Lord has lead my husband and I to believe. The women at HH wear dresses only. 3.) Their belief in homeschooling their children. 4.) Their conservative bent 5.) That they believe in the Headship rule (God is the Head of Man and Man the Head of Woman). Women are to be submissive to their husbands, as to the Lord 6.) The sense of community among the members. We want our church to be as an extended family, not just a place you visit once a week. Now that we have ruled out HH as our church of choice, we've had a hard time finding a church with like minded people. So I was wondering if there were any suggestions to help us. We are looking for a chuch, I guess with similar interests, but is Bible based and Bible believing. We did look into a Mennonite church and found that it was not a good match for us. We would like a church in the Waco area or Hill County Area (Hillsboro or surrounding areas). Any help would be greatly appreciated! YOu can email us at susanscraps414@yahoo.com Thank you!   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 760 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 9:40 pm:        Hello Mom, The short answer to your question is simple. I don't know. The long answer is difficult because it is hard to get where you are coming from with just your above post to go by. Also, I would like to humbly disagree with your apparent conclusion that HH is "...not Bible based and Bible believing". If you have based this feeling upon the varied and wild accusations made by a mere handful of anti HH posters here, then I would have to say that you are far from getting "The real story". In closing, I truly hope you find what you are looking for. Just please don't let your journey be influenced by a few bitter and angry people. If you would like to speak with me personally, my e-mail is dowen21@msn.com Yours, DOwen.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 655 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:54 pm:        Hi Folks, Greetings mom of 2, In a sense you ask a very vital question .. If not HH, then who ? Folks here could probably give you a choice of many answers from appalachian community to emergent churches to quasi-orthodox this and that to 'any healthy well-balanced church' to just knowing Jesus in your heart to other alternatives. Mostly unsatisfying answers .. if one hungers for the deep things of God then the more facile alternatives do not cry out to deep. As Daniel points out, you do err to make the offhand statement that HH is not 'bible-based and bible believing'. That accusation is neither fair nor true. One can sincerely differ with their doctrines and viewpoints yet one should not err with a false accusation. As an example a staunch creedal Trinitarian (Athanasian Creed or Cappodocian social Trinity) may understandably consider the doctrinal views of HH as unacceptable. Or one may find themselves unaccepting of the patterns of ministry and discipleship, or differ in various other ways. Yet all of that is within the realm of bible-based and believing. Let us be fair. Anyway, you are probably addressing more those who are more adversarial to HH, or at least more distant, asking as to their alternatives. And in a sense it is a good question and I as well will be listening to the responses. I just hope that you will also reconsider the part of your post that was flippant and inaccurate. Shalom, Praxaluh   mommyof2boys New member Username: mommyof2boys Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.109.143.26 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 9:48 am:        You are right that I should not have stated the HH is not "Bible-based and Bible Believing". I do not know this as a fact at all. What I should have stated is that we have asked HH members to talk to us about their beliefs, as we were VERY interested in joining. We could never get a straight answer from anyone about their beliefs. Because of that, all we have to go on is what we've heard second hand and been told by ex-members and that is all we've had to go on when making a decision regarding membership at HH. From what we COULD discover, HH's beliefs and ours are not a good match. That being said, we visit HH often and we have never met more Christ-like people in all our lives. How much of this is just putting on a good face for the public, I don't know, but it is always pleasant to visit and we've always felt such a peace while there. We've been visiting local churches in our area and the problem we've had is that nearly all of the churches we visited had un-Biblical practices or looked at us as if we were aliens from another planet. I get strange looks because I choose to wear modest dresses, while the women with clothing that is very low cut, short or tight are accepted. We are considered eccentric because we choose the homesteading lifestyle or that we homeschool. We have found very few people that are like minded. All we want is a church that follows what the Bible says alone for it's church practices. I don't even expect that all the women wear dresses (for example), but I do expect that I would be accepted, regardless of what I wore. We have visited every denomination under the sun and have found so many un-Biblical practices. Why does man think they know better than God? Why do so many churches need to add doctrine that is not already included in the Bible? The Bible is all we really should need to know how to live our lives as Christians. We are simply sincere Christians looking for a home that would please the Lord. Quite frankly, we feel that joining a church that is not Biblically based, is not pleasing to the Lord. I'm tired of visiting churches that try to be more "of the world" and preach/teach a watered down version of the Bible. They're too afraid of offending people who do not believe. I really don't think the disciples or Paul would have watered down the true message of the Gospels and we shouldn't either.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 656 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:25 pm:        Hi Mo2B, Thanks for the little correction ok, and the sharing about the good sense you have felt in visits to HH> Your analysis of the problems in the church world today is spot-on. May the Lord Jesus give you wisdom, grace and direction seeking Godly fellowship with nourishment and dedication and strength, true to Bible patterns and truth. Shalom, Praxaluh   trulyhis New member Username: trulyhis Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 209.159.98.13 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 3:48 pm:        I have a friend who recently (last few months) joined HH. I went to visit him at the craft fair this weekend & read some of their books regarding their theology & this is where my concerns are stemming from. But how do I approach him with my concerns? Anyone out there who has left HH has any wisdom/discernment for me, it would be GREATLY appreciated.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 321 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 5:09 pm:        I would like to talk to you. I don't wan't to put my phone number here, but I will send it to you in an e-mail. Robin, (Forever His) formerhh@yahoo.com   yeoman Junior Member Username: yeoman Post Number: 39 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.69.138.9 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 6:24 pm:        Dear Prax and Dowen, Bless your hearts. With all due respect, Mo2B said "IF they are not Bible based and Bible believing..." (emphasis added). Y'all aren't gun-shy are you?   amishman New member Username: amishman Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.25 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 7:26 pm:        How about a Charity Ministry based group to fellowship with. Plain dress and Bible based. They have groups all over the USA. tj   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 322 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 7:33 pm:        Dear Mom of 2, Have you tried meeting people through home school support groups? Many conservative home schoolers "home church;" meeting in their homes. I understand and share many of your views. I am so glad that you are not willing to compromise the truth just for a lifestyle. May God bless you in your search for like minded believers. We have found friends across the country with beliefs similar to ours as well as a few in our area. Yet, we all belong to churches where we are in the minority. I feel that the important thing is to be where God leads you, and not to compromise your deepest convictions or your understanding and faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe God has used our family where we are, and used others in the church to fan the flames of faith, encourage us keep up the good work, and to live our lives for God. We are where we feel He wants us to be, even if it is not ideal in our eyes. There is peace knowing we are in God's will. Forever His   danm New member Username: danm Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 71.84.236.203 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:56 am:        hey mom2boys! it makes me sad that you would rule out HH as your church based on total lies and accusations from ex-members of HH. they ar bitter and angry people full of hate....if they were real christians thair goal would not be to destroy somthing that stands and expreses the true nature of "GOD"laying down your life for others like "jesus" on the cross. if ex-members of HH ar realy happy wy cant they just move on? they say thair realy happy now and moving on but thair fruit can speek everything..many of these people ar no longer going to church period....iv grown up with many of these people almost all! and it's all lies please don't just come to conclutions that HH is not bible based and bible believing based on a few bitter people.... LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT CHURCH? well i was a member of HH for 23 years im no longer a member "but" i can tell you the truth about HH. if you realy want to be like jesus and learn to love people and be loved by people HH is the right place to be... all they ever did was love and care for me but im the one who left them to do my own thing... i realy wish i was still a part of HH....if you want to have true relationships with other people! i had that at HH.. right now im living in LA. i live in a very nice town house with three roomates.. i work 2 jobs and make realy good money! i have over 40 realy good friends! i stay verey busy most of the time. right now im realy not going to church ..."but" nun of this was worth leaving HH. my friends ar not true friends like my friends at HH. my friends at HH realy did care for me....what about all the times leaders of HH would stay up all thrue the night praying or helping other members that were sick or needed help! they did it for me many times...familys would make meals for a family that was sick or needed help..what about all the trades people learn at HH i learned so mutch from HH.the first week i moved to LA i was given a very good job! because my skills that i learned at HH...i was never "forced to be thair.....nore do they force other people to be a part. many times the leaders of HH would tell the church if you dont want to be a part of this church please leave! it would be better if you left....thats the real truth..well i hope this will help you god bless. dan-m   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 657 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 5:26 am:        Greetings to newbies, amishman and danm, Hi Yeoman, The 'in my experience' paragraph is awkward, could have been rewritten but the idea should get through. If there is a section that really can't be handled ('does not compute') by the current government-mandated minimal edumacational requirements, point to the part, either here or praxeus@bigfoot.com . Perhaps part of the concern is that I write in a more open-thinking manner. Less in the form of dialectical logic, more in the sense of ... "consider this .. think about that" More a difference of style than anything else, but one not seen much on the Net. And yes, momof2boys did have an 'if', good to point that out, the sense seemed to be that the if had already been concluded, hence our concern, but she had properly conditionalized. Shalom, Praxaluh   truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 310 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 9:40 am:        Dan M, Have you spoken with any of us bitter, angry people since leaving HH? Not with me you haven't, so how do you know that what I am like or what I do? Yet you spout judgment on all of us here as if you knew us. You didn't grow up with me, I didn't even hardly know you if your name is really Dan m. You got your info from someone, and it wasn't from the people you are accusing. I would also like to point out that no one, not one of us has ever said that the friends we had in HH were not real or the best we ever had. The truth is though, that when I said God told me to leave them, but that I still wanted to be friends, I was told I was no longer welcome on their land or in their homes. Before I said a word publicly about what was really going on, my BEST friends in HH told me I no longer had a relationship with God and that I was on a path to hell. Maybe you have fond memories of your friends in HH, so do I, I wish to God that I could still get with them. But the people that you accuse of being hate filled here, speak not against the people but the doctrine, the lies that we saw covered and told, the abuse in the name of Christ, the double standards just to name a few. I ask you, what does making "good money" because of skills you learned there have to do with their doctrine? Can you call your friends in HH today and invite them to come stay with you in your "Town House"? Would they come, would they as adults have to get permission from an elder of HH? Is total rejection and judgment things Christ taught? Or did he teach to forgive sinners? When someone fell, or was in sin, did he condemn them or forgive them, I ask you what brought a change in peoples lives, condemnation or forgiveness? The main thing Jesus spoke against was the "Church" of the times, those who sat in the place of God, that is what He spoke against. We who speak out here, speak not against the people, but against a doctrine that give power to men to rule once again in the place of God. You DM have accepted what they said about us as truth, and proclaimed it here for all to read as the truth, yet you have no first hand knowledge about the vast majority of us. I urge you to take just a moment and think. If you left HH because you wanted to go do your own thing, and you were free to do that, why are you not welcome there? If I was free to leave, why was I rejected as no longer a christian, and not even allowed to their public fair? If I was free to go, why must I pay the price of my children not knowing their grandparents? No DM I was not free to go, you were not free to go, we both paid a great price. If one is free to make his own life and doctrinal choices then others will not condemn or judge you for making that choice.( of course as long as it is within the extent of the law.) Jeremy   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1411 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.32.106 Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:32 am:        I have not lied..I am sorry you feel that some have lied...Until you live the bitter overbearing at HH instead of the front window show then and only then will you know the real HH. I am not bitter at all instead I am very thankful that the Lord helped us not throw away 40 years of ministry as the devil would have planned. I am not calling HH the devil. But the devil has schemes... I am a very conservative in belief and living. BUT there is a difference in not being able to hear the voice of the Lord for yourself. I could not do what HH elders wanted for IT WAS NOT the will of God. They would have destroyed the work here. I personally know HH lies for they lied to me. Why lie? Lies have a way of catching up with you and so it did with them. That is the reason one of their defenders staopped writting here because he discoved them lieing... That is his colice but not matter how much truth they have or do not have if it has to be enforced by lies and treats of God's wraft something is wrong... What is wrong I found out in time...   yeoman Junior Member Username: yeoman Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.206 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 7:17 am:        Dear TrulyHis, How to reach your friend? Much prayer; very, very carefully, very tentatively, asking questions-not telling; much love borne by the burden for his soul. It will require incredible effort to stay connected because once you start to question, the relationship will be strained to the breaking point. You may not even be able to question for some time, just stay friendly, interested, available and in touch. Dear Amishman, Could you give us more contact information on the Charity Ministry based group? Mo2B's posts are right on target for many of us. Thanks!   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 659 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 8:05 am:        Mrs. Alvear, you again show a complete lack of integrity on matters dealing with HH. Anyone on this forum a couple of months knows you are trying to put words in the mouth of 'ART' after he specifically requested that not be done. ART asked to withdraw from the forum without prejudice or conclusion, without accusation. Having received the brunt of much earlier stuff from him I honored his integrity stance and said not one word against his earlier posts. And you even acknowledged that your own husband indicated it was improper to bring his name, history, views back to the forum. It doesn't make a difference trying to pull the same stuff without specifically naming, it is still wrong. ART can easily speak for himself any time he wants on this forum or he can deputize you or another to be his representative. Afaik he has not done so. And based on what I have seen I completely reject anything filtered from you from third parties, even more so when they specifically requested to not be dragged back into the forum, which is what you accomplish by purporting to speak for him. And we have also seen case after case where you have accused HH yourself improperly. You double-strain backwards to accuse of lying. And you went on and on accusing HH dozens of times about one situation (the booth at the fair) leaving out lots of backdrop and without even having the integrity to contact HH once to review the matter. There again your husband counseled you properly to not bring the matter up here. So overall any accusations from you against HH generally would have to be weighed and checked extra-carefully as we see them come up wanting again and again. At one time you fabricated or parroted a rancid phrase. You repeat any accusation from another as 'fact' and you always take a one-sided stance. Completely imbalanced and improper, you have shown you will ally with just about anyone who will give you an anti-HH soapbox, it has become your main negative cause celebre. Here you claim to speak for someone who specifically asked to be non-involved in this forum. Integrity first. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on November 29, 2006)   trulyhis New member Username: trulyhis Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 209.159.98.13 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 8:49 am:        Thanks for the advise with my friend, I really appreciate it. Believe me MUCH prayer is going into the situation with my friend.... Can anyone tell me the difference of the experience of living on HH property and living somewhere else & just coming in for church? Are you exposed to different things?   mommyof2boys New member Username: mommyof2boys Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.109.143.26 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:45 am:        Here's a link to Charity Ministries that amishman mentioned earlier http://www.charityministries.org/   yeoman Junior Member Username: yeoman Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.69.139.11 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 6:07 am:        Dear TrulyHis, You can't "just come in for church". My life there was divided into three main parts: job/work, fellowship/work(ie. serving Christ by serving the Body) and sleep with small slots of time for family. The ratios of time spent on each part varied depending on what particular "push" we happened to be in at the time. I remember once being advised by an elder to pray to "be delivered from sleep". This was while working a physically stressful job, sleeping about 6 hours a night and working on the ever-demanding literature 4-6 hours nightly after work. I learned upclose and personal what happened if you raised any questions about such an un-balanced and distressful life. Intense, hour after hour, backroom grilling by those in authority to "pray through" (break you of) such heretical thoughts. I realized very early on that to get along, I had to go along with whatever I was told without question. (see the Glass House of Repressed Thinking thread).When the ones in authority said "pound the arrows on the ground" I didn't ask how many times, I just started pounding. It produced not a healthy fear of God (although it was called that), but an incredible fear of man. A fear that you would be dis-fellowshipped for anything. A fear that you would be "spoken to". A fear that ruled and controlled in a subtle underlying way, every relationship and everything you did. Yes there were good times, but the fear was ever-present. Yes there were some times of rest, but that was only until the next "push" to "bring to birth the full-orbed expression of the Body of Christ on the face of the earth." The question then becomes "How could something so good (see Mo2B's list above) become something so bad?"   amishman New member Username: amishman Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.44 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 8:39 pm:        mommyof2boys, are you familiar with the Charity group already since you had their web link? What do you think of that group? tj   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 660 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 9:34 pm:        Hi Folks, Since it is quiet, I will mention that I appreciate the Charity group info. Hmm.. not so much on doctrine :-) .. thats ok though. Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 323 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.42 Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 10:19 pm:        http://www.charityministries.org/confession.cfm How I wish I could find a link to HH's public Declaration of Faith so boldly and plainly put. http://www.homesteadheritage.com Can anyone provide me with an official HH link to their Declaration of Faith?   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 661 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 12:28 am:        Hi Foreverhis, I do remember one time when HH was putting out a 'Statement of Faith'. Either in preparation or publication. The problem is .. folks filter so much through their predispositions, accurately or falsely. Myself as well ... with the Charity folks, it starts off nicely, and then I see the 'three person' stuff and I go 'oops'. And perhaps my view of them is already colored or tainted. And that might be a hindrance to really relating to them heart-to-heart, person-to-person, to have a hearing ear and a heart purposed to learn. So I understand fully when any group or community takes either path ... publishing a 'statement of faith' - or deciding that such may be unhelpful, can be counterproductive, since folks have been so accustomed to approaching the SOF words from an adversarial base. 'Let me see what I can pick apart and disagree with, use as a cause of offense, so I can stay in supreme city and reject or put aside all that they would share' I don't share this to belittle your sentiment above, not at all, simply to show a little counterpoint. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1413 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.221.248.113 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:05 am:        Prax, is it always easy for you to lie? I know why ART left...I respect his decision...we had a phone conversation. What I say are what he said here before he left this board. He has family there and to make a right decision in the fear of God is not always easy. I decided to stay right here because I have not lied about anything I have said about HH. I am an experienced missionary and have dealt with thousands of pastors and many churches raising money for the millions of lost souls in Brazil. However, Art does not wish to be involved..I am only saying I am NOT running from this site because of HH pressure, because of your fancy words trying to protect and be in good standing with a group that you do not even belong to. If HH was so good you would be there. You are not there because in your heart you too have your reserves... For someone to say they are coming as Jesus in the flesh to you is not a biblical doctrine. You know that. You know scriptures they use try to make them "gods"...running people's lives... I am not against biblical authority but HH has this doctrine of authority set up for them to run the show there among their people. I saw firsthand they have no real concept of Biblical authority or respect for other people’s fields of labor. Their so called biblical authority is farfetched and stretched too far thus it has ruined far to many lives and seperated to many families. I live in a country where 102 people are killed every day by the violence everywhere. More people die in Brazil from violence than in Iraq...do you think for one moment I would brush up against death everyday and outright lie about some "church" group when in reality I have depended on churches for the last 40 years? I have never in one time in 40 years of ministry spoke out in such a way on the internet against any group other than HH. If I had a past of such a thing it could be interputed as such but never one time if I agreeed or disagreed with churches and with doctrines or practices have I spent so much time warning the people. Anything that I have said about HH can stand up in a court of law and one day I will give account to the Maker who has a much higher court if I have lied in any way about their dealings and falsehoods. We traveled from northeast Brazil to south Brazil for special services and on from there to the boearder of Paraguary for more services. Our life is in constant danger. I will tell the truth here and to anyone that contacts me about our dealings with HH. I will tell how they used our name and never even consulted us, set up a booth at their fair without our knowledge using Brazil and the Philippines like it was their outreach and their work. I will tell how they did not let my mom travel with us because we would not agree to Kill our BABY (Brazil work). I will tell of leaders that scream, point fingers in other people's faces...I will tell of a people that hide things and say, "don't let anyone see this..." Why such fear? Why fear to have even a magazine from another church group in your home? Why seclude a people from sharing in God’s workings all over the world through many sources? Why teach a people they are so far enlightened above other people? Whether the members know it or not and some do...they are slowly brainwashed by a doctrine that teaches them they must prepare bread for coming days for us folks that will come to them begging for spiritual bread... I know all about it...I saw their bread they are constantly working on...lol...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1414 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.221.248.113 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:09 am:        My dear friend if the BIBLE is not enough to save someone and we have to have their interputation of what the Bible means...and I was told that...it is no different from the Watch Tower folks for their bottom line is that expression... Prax...why would you want to decieve these poor little innocent lambs that write on this forum? How could you send someone to a place that you do not even live at and would not live at? You life has proven that to be a fact in my way of thinking. Why Prax? Please, stop and think of the split families, the secluded teachings, the double life style. Think about the pressure they are putting on people not to be like Christ but to do whatever the “push” may be about today? Have you forgotten while Christ requires many things from His followeres it was He himself that said, “my yoke is easy and my burden is light?” All of us here on this board love Jesus. I have no doubt about that fact. But the fact remains is How much do you love Him? Are you willing to speak up for those that have no voice at all? Those who are oppressed into “perfect obedience?” I will tell of leaders that scream, point fingers in other people's faces...I will tell of a people that hide things and say, "don't let anyone see this..." Why such fear? Why fear to have even a magazine from another church group in your home? Why seclude a people from sharing in God’s workings all over the world through many sources? Why teach a people they are so far enlightened above other people? Whether the members know it or not and some do...they are slowly brainwashed by a doctrine that teaches them they must prepare bread for coming days for us folks that will come to them begging for spiritual bread... I know all about it...I saw their bread they are constantly working on...lol... My dear friend if the BIBLE is not enough to save someone and we have to have their interputation of what the Bible means...and I was told that...it is no different from the Watch Tower folks for their bottom line is that expression... Prax...why would you want to decieve these poor little innocent lambs that write on this forum? How could you send someone to a place that you do not even live at and would not live at? You life has proven that to be a fact in my way of thinking. Why Prax? Please, stop and think of the split families, the secluded teachings, the double life style. Think about the pressure they are putting on people not to be like Christ but to do whatever the “push” may be about today? Have you forgotten while Christ requires many things from His followeres it was He himself that said, “my yoke is easy and my burden is light?” All of us here on this board love Jesus. I have no doubt about that fact. But the fact remains is How much do you love Him? Are you willing to speak up for those that have no voice at all? Those who are oppressed into “perfect obedience?” Those who tremble at jesus in flesh... Those who "take every thought into captivity'? What a twisted way to twist the word of God... MY FRIENDS at HH or where ever...YES you have a voice...use it for what is really right not for what you have been lead to believe is right...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1415 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.221.248.113 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:13 am:        My friend you will never hear HH statement of faith other than they are working on it...and all answers you get from them will be answers that are not answers...they like many "cults" will not tell you up front what they believe. They are taught how to answer the people that ask questions and you may "belong" there but you are on "levels"....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1416 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.221.248.113 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:16 am:        reminds me of people ever learning and never coming to the knowledge...if they would throw away their "books" and read from THE BOOK they might could answer your question...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1417 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.221.248.113 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:19 am:        Forever His...rest assured HH will never tell you all their secret belief's...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 764 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:26 am:        They (HH) have told me all their beliefs. None of which are secret, btw. ML's silly and childish games are truly pathetic here.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 662 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 12:38 pm:        Mrs. Alvear, your accusation that I lied about something is very sad and shows that there is something fundamentally askew, your heart is not right. Apparently false accusations of lying are now second nature to you, they simply roll off your tongue. Usually directed against HH, but in your current animus they can go anywhere. Now we know that in all things regarding HH you have lost all balance and perspective - and that within false accusations there is absolutely no integrity. And you are totally wrong about what ART posted on the forum. The readers know that. ART left without accusing anyone, HH, me, or any other posters. You should respect his actions. Others can remind you privately if you really don't remember. And you know that you posted here that your husband counseled you not to bring up the ART issues, in respect to ART's request to simply withdraw. Your selectively putting uncheckable words in his mouth when he withdrew from the forum for the purpose of not being involved is very tacky and brings you into disrepute. Let ART post a word here if you are his deputy or mouthpiece, beyond that you should learn to hold your tongue. Even If you have no clarity about these issues, at least call to remembrance what you yourself said in regard to your husband's counsel. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 03, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 663 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 12:52 pm:        Forever_His, Do you also claim with Mrs. Alvear that HH has 'secret beliefs' ? That they will 'never tell you.' In what realm ? (soteriology, eschatology, etc .. as much focus as you can muster) Do you know the 'secrets' ? Or are they really, really 'secret'. Please answer to the point, avoid a general discussion about statements of faiths and such, we can discuss that separately. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 03, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 324 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.57 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 4:09 pm:        Yes, they have teachings that are revealed at different levels. In order not to offend you they don't give you a doctrine until you are "ready," (conditioned,) for it. I do remember one time when HH was putting out a 'Statement of Faith'. Either in preparation or publication. Yes, and I saw that "statement of faith," which they had denied having, when an exmember showed it to me. At that point I could see where all the other books were leading. Then it all made sense. If they are unwilling to share their doctrines, then their doctrines ARE secrete. We might disagree why they are secrete, but that doesn't change the fact that they are not open to the public, they are private/secrete. They are willing to deceive others concerning their doctrines. When asked if they believe in the Trinity, they don't tell the truth. They just don't answer the question. They say "We choose to use Biblical terms to describe God." The answer to the question is, "No. We believe the Trinity is a PAGAN idea." It is a secrete answer. They choose who share their secrete/private doctrines with. They have shared some of them with you and DOwen, and some they may have not. I don't know. Have you asked them what level you are on? Are you a slave of God, a friend of God, or a Son of God according to HH doctrine? In my understanding of HH doctrine you haven’t even reached the first level. The elder could say to you like he did to JA, "You didn't even know Christ until you came here." You aren't there yet. You are encouraging people to join themselves to a "christ" you don't even know. You would only know it by knowing it's authority over every area of your life. It would bring you to the knowledge of "christ" after you get to a deep level of submission to it as it comes to you through a tangible "Jesus in the flesh." Who is your tangible "Jesus in the flesh?" Who do you trust and completely submit to without reserve? Are you leaving yourself an out? If you think you can know God without a tangible authority, then the God you know can bend to fit your ideas of him. In HH sense you are then your own God. You might think you can use the Bible to know God. You might think you can read it and decide what God is like and what his will is. But then you are still reserving an out, because you are relying on your interpretation of the Bible. This is where the Apostle comes in. As a tangible expression of God's authority, (which is why they say Jesus came; to be a tangible expression of God's authority, and why he still comes in the flesh,)you give up your outs. You can know God as he really is. Man has a deceitful heart, you can not trust yourself. Salvation can not be found, Jesus can not be known without it. "This is salvation, that you may know Christ." Until he rules as a tangible authority in your life, an authority that can not be twisted to meet your ideas, you do not know him. If it is not a secrete, according to HH doctrine what level are you on? Respectfully, Forever His   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 664 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 8:41 pm:        Hi Folks, F_H, it actually amazes me that you would take offense to an answer about the Trinity doctrine question .. "We choose to use Biblical terms to describe God." To my mind and heart that will often be the most excellent response, leaving the discussion open to explain precept upon precept about views of the Deity of Messiah, the nature of God, the Hebraic understanding, the Shema, the oneness of God, and biblical terminology and concepts... Without beginning with an offense. (And without the problem of the miscategorization and misrepresentation of our own views, frequently a great problem .. 'you must believe exactly like Such-and-Such, and I rejected them/him'). One of the great pitfalls of modern doctrinal 'dialog' is the quickness to draw 'lines in the sand' and look for a 'cause of offense' and yell 'heretic' - before even carefully and prayfully hearing one another out. And this is true on many issues, law and grace, eschatology, soteriology, Messiahology, water baptism and much more, even outside the beautiful questions of holiness and Christian community and discipleship and ministry and helps. Let's look for a code word, an association with some folks we don't like that we brand a cult, and then then do the pigeonhole routine. A very common practice and often stifling to true inquiry. And as you should know, many, many folks who consider themselves as 'Trinitarian' embrace nothing like the various orthodox Trinity doctrines anyway, (Athanasian Creed or Cappadocian social Trinity views or the 'eternal begetting of the Son' or 'coequal, coeternal, consubstantial Persons in the Godhead'), So especially to such people why act like an adversary attacker? 'pagan heretic !' - with the answer like you recommend or even insist upon. (btw... what do you say, F_H, to that same question today about the Trinity doctrine ? I am very interested that you should honestly share here, especially as you brought up the question. Do you loudly declare to your neighbors what you say above ? Or do you embrace the Trinity doctrine ? Or what ?) Whatever you say, whatever your beliefs today, your advice above in many cases is just bad advice (perhaps even the emnity of the carnal mind) and it is against Paul's Biblical evangelizing counsel as well. You are straining very hard to fabricate a cause of offense. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 03, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 325 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.30 Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:13 pm:        You answer my question first. According to HH doctrine what level are you on? Their NON answer to the Trinity question is deception. The question is simple; the answer is at least a simple, "No we don't; not as most people understand the trinity." I am not trying to "fabricate" an offence. Truth is their doctrine, if stated in clear plain words, IS an offence. Sooooo, they don't shout it from the house tops. Nor do they provide it all to would-be members before they have given months and sometimes years of their lives as "visitors." Thank God we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit, and that God gives wisdom to His children. He reveals Himself to us. Praise the Lord that what we really need is not hid from us because it "might offend us." Praise Him for those who gave their lives to bring His Word, the Bible, to the people. Praise God that He has brought so many of us out of HH and freed us from the deception and brought us to faith in the one and only true Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Praise God for the gift of Christ in each believer. Praise Him for the new heart He gives. Praise Him that His sheep DO hear His voice. (Message edited by foreverhis on December 03, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 665 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 1:57 am:        F-H, What is this all about ? Nothing, and less. Straining to accuse. First you propose a hostile and unbiblical, arrogant response for HH when discussing the doctrines of the nature of God. When that is pointed out then you give another alternative, without even stopping to say - "oops, I was wrong." And apparently you want to write your own book of questions and answers. However there is no anointing. And ironically you fudge and hide and fuzz your beliefs on this forum. And when you share a little, it falls flat. How all the Catholics and Protestants in Appalachia make for one happy spiritual family helping one another. This is your deep truth of doctrinal understanding. The irony in all this is that HH more than anyone else I know has sought to really have a solid base of understanding of Messiahology. And of teaching well. Not just pat answers but grappling with the questions. And this goes way back. Even in an earlier book, I remember my surprise that they introduced the term 'economic Trinity' as distinct from 'ontological Trinity'. Whether or not you view that as a helpful distinction, it is not something that generally comes up in the more facile presentations and discussions. This helped lead me to look into some of the history of modern doctrinal study. Such as the views of Karl Barth. An example of a world-class Trinitarian writer - except that he is Trinitarian in name but not by the current popularist Doctrinal Police standards. Aren't we supposed to try to really get to the core of the current tensions, rather than simply taking sides ? Aren't we trying to reason together, rather than playing doctrinal trump cards ? And yet, you remain the critic. Why does HH try to write carefully and in depth on these issues ? Simply because they really care about the issues, about God, about the Lord Jesus Christ. They don't see the current discordant Trinity/Oneness/Arian/Other debate as usually very edifying, as it is not a discussion that is often filled with respect and humility. (Ok, please note: I am sort of speaking for HH here on my own, but only in a very mild sense, and only the fairly obvious, happy to be corrected if overstepping.) By contrast, your 'calling' seems to be a self-proclaimed interest in trying to pick holes in this and that .. trying to fight battles that simply are reflections of your own confusions. These Messiahology issues are so significant and even delicate that HH puts far more energy into study and publications and teachings trying to really delve and learn than probably any other fellowship around. (There was one group 15 years ago that did an especially noteworthy job). Including a book in process, a book a while back, other literature. And you are the critic. (continues)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 666 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 2:07 am:        HH, unlike many, really want to seek this out in a Berean sense themselves, and they want folks to have a far deeper perception and understanding of what is involved than a lot of the facile 'Oneness/Trinity' debates. I've seen those debates (used to participate in them) and most of them are not built around anything like a unity of the spirit - the Holy Spirit anointing that can lead to a unity of the faith. F_H, clearly you would criticize HH because they take a Berean and Biblical and Pauline approach to these matters and don't fit your mold. And you look for every possible cause of offense to a beautiful, measured and heartfelt approach to discussing Messiahology (my preferred word == Christology). And from your perch of who-knows-what-you-believe you take these pot shots. Bluntly speaking, it is a disgrace. btw, I have little idea about levels. And I have little respect for how the HH fellowship and ministry is related by the disaffected .. we have seen so much distortion and confusion and strained accusation that I find your descriptions are not trustworthy. Twist and accuse is the motif. I've never run into - "you should (or should not) be delving into this doctrinal study because of the level or position or status or newness or maturity". Never. Now I have discussed in depth with you closely related issues, such as folks who do not come to the full fellowship meetings. I felt that the criticisms levied here were clearly way off, that the critics were fighting the sanctity and purpose and holiness of the assembly of God's people. That discussion sounds like the levels discussion from another angle. F_H, let me be clear with you. You are playing games on this thread. And now I really do not care what is your doctrine or what answers you would give to various conjectural questions. I do not see you as doing anything but taking potshots. You attitude towards very deep and sensitive and beautiful doctrinal issues is one of a coquettish hypocrite, you flirt with being honest or dishonest with the doctrines of the Bible. And it does not make me have any interest in your views, the earlier request is withdrawn. Not after you have played this around the block a couple of times, it's now an irrelevancy. As pointed out before you are straining to fabricate causes of offense. Shalom, Praxaluh   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 765 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 8:55 pm:        Hello everybody, I just finished re-reading Prax's above post, and I wanted to offer a hearty amen. From my perspective, his last comment pretty much sums up the entire reason this board is here. Thank you Praxaluh for sharing, it is much appreciated. DOwen.   seekingglory Junior Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 50 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 9:51 pm:        Prax said...............HH, unlike many, really want to seek this out in a Berean sense themselves, and they want folks to have a far deeper perception and understanding of what is involved than a lot of the facile 'Oneness/Trinity' debates. SG..........For it was the noble Boreans who trusted not in themselves but in the righteous Spirit of the Almighty God in heaven to morally convict them of His truth rather than the words of men, even the words of the apostle Paul. This is not the case in HH where the words of men are to be followed without question. Don’t insult the Boreans by comparing them to HH. Prax said...............I've seen those debates (used to participate in them) and most of them are not built around anything like a unity of the spirit - the Holy Spirit anointing that can lead to a unity of the faith. F_H, clearly you would criticize HH because they take a Berean and Biblical and Pauline approach to these matters and don't fit your mold. SG.......Your biased opinion of HH is based on distant memory and what they tell you now. HH doesn’t fit FH's mold and FH doesn’t fit HH’s mold. This doesn’t make either one correct; or wrong. Prax said....................And you look for every possible cause of offense to a beautiful, measured and heartfelt approach to discussing Messiahology (my preferred word == Christology). And from your perch of who-knows-what-you-believe you take these pot shots. Bluntly speaking, it is a disgrace. SG.......A very unnecessary belittling of a fellow Christian. Integrity first! Prax said................btw, I have little idea about levels. And I have little respect for how the HH fellowship and ministry is related by the disaffected .. we have seen so much distortion and confusion and strained accusation that I find your descriptions are not trustworthy. Twist and accuse is the motif. SG.........When true Christians can testify through these means to the abuse and unscriptural actions of HH and you come along and try to reduce them then you are untrustworthy. And I can ASSURE all who read this that Prax is in email contact with HH and has assumed the position of spokesman per se.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 9:54 pm:        Prax said.................I've never run into - "you should (or should not) be delving into this doctrinal study because of the level or position or status or newness or maturity". Never. SG............Level of membership is a FACT and determines the type and amount of information a member is given. FACT. Prax said...................Now I have discussed in depth with you closely related issues, such as folks who do not come to the full fellowship meetings. I felt that the criticisms levied here were clearly way off, that the critics were fighting the sanctity and purpose and holiness of the assembly of God's people. SG...........Your biased opinion only. No scriptural backing for such a method. In fact, it goes against Jesus’ teachings. Prax said..........................That discussion sounds like the levels discussion from another angle. F_H, let me be clear with you. You are playing games on this thread. SG............No Prax, it is you playing games. I find it ironic that when some of these folks started a private chat room it was met with strong resentment; you included. The same folks that suggested these discussions be moved away from Factnet to a private area are upset because they could not be a part of it. Simply bitter attitudes towards folks hurt by HH. No integrity. Prax said...................And now I really do not care what is your doctrine or what answers you would give to various conjectural questions. I do not see you as doing anything but taking potshots. You attitude towards very deep and sensitive and beautiful doctrinal issues is one of a coquettish hypocrite, you flirt with being honest or dishonest with the doctrines of the Bible. And it does not make me have any interest in your views, the earlier request is withdrawn. SG..........To call HH doctrine beautiful is SICK. Their doctrines are not biblical. Their doctrines hurt innocent people; innocent Christians. The world WILL see the truth about HH. And the world is beginning to look. And explore. And discover. Prax said.....................Not after you have played this around the block a couple of times, it's now an irrelevancy. As pointed out before you are straining to fabricate causes of offense. SG...........No she is not. You just can’t stand the truth and the truth is coming out. The truth shall set the captives free. At least the ones that desire to be free. Many are so brainwashed they would drink the Kool-Aid if instructed. Prax, concentrate on your Yahoo board; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/ It will be time better spent.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 326 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.156 Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:34 pm:        You are so judgmental of my intentions. I never tried to hide my view on the trinity/oneness debate. It is stated clearly in another thread. Your vitriol is plain to see. I have never judged the intentions or the heart of the leaders in HH. If anything I have stood up for them regarding their intentions. Yet you come on here and in all yourself righteous piety and guess at my intentions and judge them. I am not disturbed that YOU can not “feel” it. Sure, I am not as educated as you are with all your big words. IF a higher education is necessary to be saved, then surely most of man kind is lost, and Jesus who spoke to the multitude, the poor, and the meek wasted His breath. Praise be to God that we are saved by faith, and child like faith at that. God’s Word clearly says there is ONE God. It talks about the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost. It says God is Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and all of the deity of God indwelt Him. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega. Now how that plays out… it is a matter of faith. Not faith in mans’ doctrines or theologies, (surely not faith in Blair Adams’ nor Prax’s theology, and not even my own,) but faith in the Living Word. For me and many more simple minded believers, it is a child like faith. “My God said it; so it is.” I don’t need to understand it, I just need to believe it. I fear for you, or any man, who condemns those who believe by faith, instead of head knowledge and big words. Beware, unless you become a stumbling block to the children of God. Beware that you don’t put your faith in your knowledge OF God and never know Him intimately abiding in you by faith. I am praying for you.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 327 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.156 Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:36 pm:        Back to HH: The submission to "Jesus in the flesh" as tangible authority through apostles and elders as a necessary element for salvation is a MAIN doctrine in HH. It is their Gospel. If you, their great defender, don't know it, then is it a secret? Why have they not shared it with you? Tell me, I have asked here MANY of times; What is the Gospel ACCORDING to HH? Why have you not answered? Do you not know? Can the Word of God not stand scrutiny? Then how has the Bible made it these many generations? Men must hear the Gospel to believe and accept it or reject it. To do either, they must first hear the Gospel. If HH has “the truth” reveled for the last days then they have the great commission to respond to. Do you think God would have them keep the truth hid as well as they do? HH, unlike many, really want to seek this out in a Berean sense themselves, and they want folks to have a far deeper perception and understanding of what is involved than a lot of the facile 'Oneness/Trinity' debates.... These Messiahology issues are so significant and even delicate that HH puts far more energy into study and publications and teachings trying to really delve and learn than probably any other fellowship around. Here you are surely deceived; the “fellowship” is not like the Bereans. Only the leaders have that freedom. It doesn't matter what studying the individual has done. In HH what Blair Adams says he gets from God is what matters to the members. There is no encouragement to the MEMBERS to be like Bereans. They are to trust that it has all been done for them. I was told before I went to my first Sunday meeting not to look up the text as it was delivered from the pulpit. They said the pages flipping were a distraction and that it showed a lack of trust in the teacher. If I couldn’t trust him enough to take it as he said then I shouldn’t be there. The leader's interpretation is the one they MUST accept. (The text from their statement of faith says so on the last page of the 40 pages. You can ask for a copy from HH. If they won't give it to you, you can get a copy from Watchman Fellowship.) When you join them you must join in child like faith trusting that THEY, the leaders, Jesus still coming in the flesh, have the word for you. You have to lay aside all your previous ideas and interpretations. They even joke about it and say you need to have your brain washed. Please get back to me on what level you are on. Are you on your way to becoming a son of God? It is not important for me to know, but I am concerned because it should be important to you to know where you stand within the doctrines you are defending. Heavily burdened for you, Forever His   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1418 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.205.163.50 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:14 am:        Just got into the international airport in Sao Paulo Brazil...have been in a beautiful conference close to Paraguay but on the Brazil side. So sad that everything I say which is pure truth Prax tries to belittle it...but one thing about it is there is a God and he knows the absolute truth for He is truth... I am willing to stake my reputation as a missionary that I am NOT lying and HH has many secret doctrines...and levels of knowledge that they slowly brainwash people into...nothing is put on the table outfront... I even have some papers were HH leaders wrote levels on it...for your eyes only...etc... stupid stuff if you ask my opinion....When and where is it that Jesus has some secret plan some death covenant for his children???? Whosoever will...let him come...we do not need BA or Mary Eddy Baker or Russell or Branham or any of those that recieve their gradual revelations to tell us what the Bible says...for the Bible says it is so plain that a fool and wayfaring man would not err therein... Since when do we have to pass baptismal tests...where does the Bible teach "their" meaning of jesus in the flesh"?????????????? I say save yourselves from heartache, dispair and accept the gospel as written in the Bible... Gal. 1:4-9.... Forever HIS PLEASE EXCUSE MY BLUNTNESS AS I am in a hurry... if HH was right then where are God´s perfect sons???????????????? not at HH...for I saw one of the "perfect" ones not so perfect... Prax cannot even live what he defends..so he carries no weight...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 667 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:26 am:        S-G, I am amazed (actually I am not so amazed) that you can also speak untruths and false accusations so easily. For example we were discussing the HH views and literature on Messiahology. Your biased opinion of HH is based on distant memory However that is simply not true. A friend in ministry visited and I learned a bit about literature in process. That is in line with the earlier literature on the Deity of Messiah, the foundation of Biblical truth. So I was speaking about current as well as historical, and this is a point which I indicated above. Yet you simply hand-wave away what I actually said in order to try to discredit. "And I can ASSURE all who read this that Prax is in email contact with HH and has assumed the position of spokesman per se." Hopefully anybody who is taking any position discussing the views and history of HH will seek to have some email contact with HH .. in fact one of the major problems here is the folks who repeat harsh accusations about some history events. Repeat dozens of times, impugning motives, making all sorts of assumptions, leaving out backdrop, without even having the courtesy to check with HH at all. Not even an email. I pointed out the lack of integrity of that type of accusation. In fact, however, emails relating to anything on forum have been very close to zero. Most of the stuff here is so off base that it classifies itself in the realm of discordant annoyances, not worthy of much discussion. Any communications I would have with HH would tend, hopefully, to be on far more edifying matters. And you are 100% wrong - I have definitely not assumed the position of 'spokesman per se' - nor could I. This is absurd and shows a bit of desperation. In fact, I often look to Daniel's letters to get a closer sense of how something is perceived, as in some cases he may have more direct contact. Some not in HH write me offlist and if a number of folks come on list to give counterpoint to the shrill nabobs that will be very fine by me. Daniel and myself and others write as individuals, giving our views and opinions. No more, no less. And if I think I may sound like I am giving an HH view, taking an extra step, I will carefully note that, as above. Since I am in no position to sound like I am giving a studied HH response. The important thing .. I do try to ask the Lord Jesus for wisdom on the issues and consider them earnestly before responding. (Perhaps you confuse that with being spokesman, the fact that I usually write carefully.) Sometimes I feel I should wait a day so the response will be more measured. Some of the attacks here are very provocative, and provoke a righteous indignation that may not transfer well to a forum post .. so I take a little rest time. btw, I have no bitterness toward the funk list. I have no idea where you get that, tis a fabrication. In a sense, better there than here. However there is a very strong scriptural admonition that anybody who might partake of same should keep in mind.. 1 Corinthian 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. And I will be very forthright in sharing that scriptural admonition. In regards to this forum and contact with HH, a couple of emails over the year. Nothing about getting their view, or approval, or anything like that, a couple of incidental things that arose. The main issue was a doctrinal something that came up where there was some unclarity to be resolved properly. (continues)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 668 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:37 am:        To point out that folks are seeking causes of offense is not 'belittling' any individual poster by any stretch. So many of these attacks have surprised me by their convolution, lack of insight, virtual irrelevance and 'mountain-out-of-molehill different perception' source. And I point that out. I have been very clear that if some one wants to raise doctrinal differences (simple example: a staunch orthodox creedal Trinitarian saying 'they are not accepting the Athanasian Creed as a foundational truth') and share them with other folks, go right ahead. We may differ but we will have a good discussion. That is not the motif here most of the time, however. It is in fact fabricating or strrreettchhinnnggg any perceived cause of offense. One person comes up with something and no matter how off it gets parroted right and left, even to where we saw the ugliest and most unChristian accusation repeated by many for a good season. My hope is to point out places where the streetchingg occurs, as above. As in the strange 'they should say pagan' stuff and most of that discussion. Shalom, Praxaluh PS. Where is the teaching of Jesus that says that every assembly meeting should be open to anybody - no directed purpose, no meetings should have a base of holiness and sanctity among the participants. I have missed that verse or parable, so you are welcome to share it now. (To me this is an excellent example of the disaffected streettcching to fabricate a cause of offense against a very excellent HH way of allowing the Holy Spirit to move - however if there is a scripture that teaches otherwise, I will listen carefully. Note, I am not saying this is exclusive to HH at all, a point we also discussed.)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 669 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:44 am:        I will note above that Mrs. Alvear has reverted to using the fabricated sick lingo from earlier (death covenant). To start up yet again with the demonic attack, after careful and gentle correction, brings only 2 Peter 2:22 in mind. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 670 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:52 am:        Hi Folks, F_H, how do you come up with such nonsense as this ? "I fear for you, or any man, who condemns those who believe by faith, instead of head knowledge and big words." Any reader here knows I have never belittled anyones writing, knowledge, background, education etc. Never. Nor said that you believe by "head knowledge and big words" Nothing even remotely by words or implication or in any way. You are simply a false accuser. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1419 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.205.163.50 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:02 am:        A few things Prax accuses us and especially me of: complete lack of integrity your heart is not right coquettish hypocrite Thanks Prax for calling us here all these names and more...you sound like a child losing a checker game...Truth upsets you... We have my friends, on this board Mr. Prax, who KNOWS or thinks he does everything about HH and does not even belong to HH... A man that does not have a covenant signed with them and is not a part of them...trying to tell us all about a place he would not live at, a church he does not hold membership with... and we also have on this board people that have been a part of HH for many years speaking out denying what Prax says to be truth...how would Prax know? The answer is he only knows what they feed him...he knows nothing about our relationship with HH except what THEY tell him...He has never asked to talk to any of my friends that begged us to back away before we were destroyed, he has never spoken with my pastor, never talked to my family...and yes Prax by the way my husband changed his mind and told me to put on this site whatever I wanted too... Prax...belittle others all you please...you only show HH spirit...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1420 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.205.163.50 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:42 am:        HH abuses the Bible by jesus in the flesh doctrine...(Brother Alvear)   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:02 pm:        Prax said.................However that is simply not true. A friend in ministry visited and I learned a bit about literature in process. That is in line with the earlier literature on the Deity of Messiah, the foundation of Biblical truth. So I was speaking about current as well as historical, and this is a point which I indicated above. Yet you simply hand-wave away what I actually said in order to try to discredit. SG.................Your friend in ministry visited? And just what did this friend get? Only the details they spill to the public. Much different from the inside literature. That is my basis for the comment. If you think what they give visitors is what they internally proclaim then you are sadly misled. Prax.................btw, I have no bitterness toward the funk list. I have no idea where you get that, tis a fabrication. In a sense, better there than here. However there is a very strong scriptural admonition that anybody who might partake of same should keep in mind.. 1 Corinthian 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. And I will be very forthright in sharing that scriptural admonition. SG...........You have no idea what is written there. Maybe it is a positive approach to encouraging each other and not a bashing agenda. You pronounce them guilty without any evidence. You show your bitterness by presumptuous comments. Prax said...................PS. Where is the teaching of Jesus that says that every assembly meeting should be open to anybody - no directed purpose, no meetings should have a base of holiness and sanctity among the participants. I have missed that verse or parable, so you are welcome to share it now. (To me this is an excellent example of the disaffected streettcching to fabricate a cause of offense against a very excellent HH way of allowing the Holy Spirit to move - however if there is a scripture that teaches otherwise, I will listen carefully. Note, I am not saying this is exclusive to HH at all, a point we also discussed.) SG.............That’s not what was suggested. The church I attend has a firm purpose, a base of holiness and sanctity and we welcome any and all who care to contribute or examine. Just like Jesus would have it. First, not every HH assembly. ANY HH assembly. EVERY assembly at HH is closed to the public. For someone to attend ANY meeting requires special permission and clearing by the elders. If they want to pretend to be ‘Jesus in the flesh’ the least they could do is follow the steps Jesus took while on earth. If you are gonna say you are 'Jesus in the flesh' then ACT LIKE HIM. Here are a few scriptures. If you need more I will oblige. Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. Matt 9:10-12 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 671 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 5:14 am:        Mrs. Alvear, 'coquettish hypocrite' was not spoken to you. However, I thought about it later and felt that 'doctrinal dilettante' might be more accurate. And why do I say you do not have integrity in regards to HH ? It is spelled out very clearly in posts, example after example. In this specific case it was your reusage of the ugly, false 'death covenant' accusation, you are returning to the vomit of the 'pacto de muerte' attempt to deceive folks by putting a black magic santeria tinge upon Godly covenant. As if you and Mr. Alvear had entered a santeria death covenant when you were married. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 672 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 5:27 am:        S_G, anybody can see that you are streeetttchinnnggg in your 'scriptural' attempt to justify your rather vapid accusation that an assembly for the fellowship is unscriptural. I really don't see much point in wasting time on the obvious unless you come up with a coherent argument. In general, you are the master of the uninformed conjecture posted as fact. The context of the Messiahology discussion is literature meant for all. (And when I have a little time I will also be looking at some of the recent new publications, they may have a bit on the topic.) Remember the context of our discussion is Messiahology, various doctrinal views like Oneness and Trinity. Some years back HH wrote a very fine book on the topic and it can be seen as a jumping-off point for what they would write today. Somehow you seem to feel that such literature is different than direct (internal) teaching on the topic. By what basis you have given no indication, so again I can't find anything of substance to which to respond. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 673 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 5:55 am:        Mrs. Alvear, Not only should you have forsaken this brujeria-lingo abomination long ago, you and one or two others really owe HH an apology, real, deep and sincere (all other issues notwithstanding) for this repeated, acrid, sick, transgression. Charitably, perhaps it was done in the past in a bit of blindness or misplaced oppositional enthusiasm, or confusion as to vocabulary due to language limitations. Whatever the source, it is time now to get right with God and forsake and repudiate completely the demonic language. Sadly, in your current bondage this does not seem likely. Perhaps some here who say they respect HH ministry (while opposing some doctrine) will put shoe-leather on their words and offer you Godly counsel to offer such an apology in a back channel or right here. Give strong encouragement for you to have a change of heart and offer such an apology today, without conditions or qualifications. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1421 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.139.231 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 8:07 am:        Prax I owe no apology to HH. I would say the other way around...however...TRUTH hurts and when I finally saw the truth about their intentions of making their prophecies come to pass by sheer force, deceiving, manipulating...at least at this point I walked away... I should have listened to many men and women of God but I wanted to see for myself their lies...that is why I asked them questions...I already knew the answer..and even after they lied I wanted to believe that they had told the truth... You Prax don't even know what you are talking about... I have had lots of Godly advise and lots of help from real men and women of God that are not interested in taking over our work and printing up false information concerning us... You may belittle me all you want...but at least I have enough of God's spirit for Him to speak to me about HH and show me the depth of their doctrine from the pit of hell... Why don't you go there to be saved?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? You won't even live what you preach...I don't have to know big words to see that. My heart is right with God...to speak out against evil shows the condition of my heart...And I will continue at every chance God provides to speak out against a system that destroys families in the name of God...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1422 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.139.231 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 8:31 am:        Prax...only when somebody lives what they preach do their words weigh...your words are on the scales read zero... Have you signed a death convenant???????????? You know..till death do us part with HH? Of course not... YOU cannot and will not....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1423 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.139.231 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 8:34 am:        CONSISTENCY, thou art a jewel....   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 328 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.195 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 8:56 am:        Prax, when you go to their store, see if Order of Perfection and By What Authority are for sale to the public. Remember the context of our discussion is Messiahology, various doctrinal views like Oneness and Trinity. No that is the straw man. The subject was the secrecy of their doctrines. I mentioned that they were not forthcoming in their beliefs about the Trinity as well as their other doctrines. Read SG's post again. He is not saying that the public books are not available to the members. He is saying that the public is not privy to the complete inside teachings. For instance their "Christology" for the outsiders likely does not include the information that this One God is still coming tangibly in full authority through leaders who will bring you to know Christ and salvation through your submission to them.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 674 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:04 pm:        F_H, again, you are mixing and confusing issues. Now it seems like there really are no secret doctrines you are claiming, such as on Messiahology (which was in fact the earlier discussion) - simply that you feel that HH does not express strongly enough in the literature the nature of God's authority being manifest through ministry, eldership, discipleship and community. Yet even that you have to couch as 'likely' since you seem to know that they have written more on this topic than any fellowship we know of anywhere over the years. Anywhere. Bar none. Earlier I quoted from some of their literature about the verses in the Johannine epistles that talk of confessing 'Jesus Christ is come in the flesh'. Literature being prepared for publication. And much literature over the years has discussed the necessity of such a unique culture for the 'garden of God' to be fully and truly manifest. As you know, the literature changes at times, new books and booklets are written, earlier ones are superseded and are not used. Overall though it is hard to take the stance that the topic on which they are the most prolific and interesting writers anywhere (agree or disagree) is one that HH has kept secret ! Similarly your kvetch about the Trinity is simply a reflection of your doctrinal dilettante approach. HH has written very cogently on the Messiahology topic and are currently studying and preparing more. Your kvetch essentially boiled down to the fact that they do not take a hostile in-your-face adversarial approach. To the legions of folks who have been confused a bit by the variations and vagaries of modern orthodox 'Christian apologetic' teaching. They have taken a gentle, respectful, step-by-step approach. And in so doing are an excellent example to diverse dogmatic demoninational doctrinaire disasters that debilitate with derision. In contrast, HH takes the apporach of working thoughtfully and carefully, step-by-step ala Paul). Essentially, you actually kvetch about the thoughtfulness, caution and accuracy of the HH approach. While ironically you yourself straddle who-knows-how-many-fences in carefully couched confusion. (I do remember some of your earlier statements, F-H, such as how you would baptize in the titles or a hybrid formula but maybe haven't done so so far.. stuff like that was puzzling and head-scratching and a matter of real concern.) Tis all very strange. Look, you can raise various issues where you disagree with HH, that is your prerogative, but these horses you are beating here are really just the strreettchhinng to find a 'cause of offense' at work and the poor horsies have wounds from the pounding. Let them rest. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 06, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 675 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:16 pm:        As for Mrs. Alvear, the acrid stench of her pet 'death covenant' accusation lays a pallor, a stench, over the forum. Like a kleptomaniac or a drunken sailor who cannot restrain .. the words dribble forth again and again and again. At this time, with no restraint, understanding or balance .. not a thing that Mrs. Alvear says can be trusted, this is a very sick tongue at work. James teaches very clearly about how we must be concerned that our tongue is not wild and false. Maybe some of you can try to help her. Nobody is being helped by this, nobody. Shalom, Praxaluh   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 353 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.9.90.42 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:41 pm:        Hey Everyone, Quite a lively discussion. Thought I would join in for a few minutes. Mof2, I hope your decision to not join HH was you felt God speaking to your heart using the scriptures and other iformation available to you. You will find the right fellowship the same way. It may be an existing church or perhaps a home group or two or three families of like mind that God would lead you to. You will find the place God wants for you! TrlyH, The best thing you can do for your friend is pray. Once someone joins and makes the covenant committment and signs the baptism papers it is going to be virtually impossible for you to convince them of anything. Be availble love on them every opportunity and pray some more. Prax, As SG says there are certain things that are not really open for debate regarding HH doctrine and practice. 1.) FH description of "Jesus come in the flesh" is not open for debate it is what HH believes. Any ex-member will testify to that as a fact. It is much of a fact as Oneness or Jesus Name Baptism. Part of being a member of HH is to believe that what comes from the leadership comes from Jesus and is never wrong. As I was told even if it is wrong it is OK because you are subbmiting to the God in the flesh authority over you. 2.) FH asks a good question that you refuse to answer, what level did you attain before you left HH? Perhaps you do not know because that doctrine revealed by the Jesus in the flesh was not revealed until you were long gone. Since you have been gone even HH would not reveal many of their teachings to you because you have not reached the level for you to know. It would be like casting pearls before swine. The other side of the coin what you don't know you can not deny. 3.)I don't question your sincerity and have often complimented you for your vocab but Prax you simple do not know what you are talking about when it comes to HH doctrine. 4.) HH found out real quick that to reveal doctrines before a person is ready would highly limit those joining. That is a fact any current or former member will confirm. Dowen, You said.."They (HH) have told me all their beliefs. None of which are secret, btw. ML's silly and childish games are truly pathetic here." Daniel I believe that you have asked, but by your own admission you are not and never have been member of HH and again they are not going share with you more than the level you have attained. Danm, God bless you I hope you find what your looking for. I know that Jesus is alive and well in California and many of His people have not bowed their knee nor kissed Baal. Look! God will hook you up and you can find the Body of Christ in LA. FH, Thanks for you perseverance, do not grow wreay in well doing. ML, My wife and I are praying for your safety and ministry, I was telling someone about you last week and expressed my desire to come for a visit if God allows. Please forgive the mispellings as I did not have my spell check available. Under Grace   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 329 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.105 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:14 pm:        Prax, As of when I left, literature on their "Christology" was not available, even to some visitors. HH had published The Bed Rock and when I joined HH it was on the shelf in the "Center" at the church in town. They pulled it within months of my joining in the early 90s. We had one long time visitor thinking seriously of becoming a member, begging for a copy and they refused to give him one. Even I, a member, had to wait until they thought I was ready for it before I could read it. As far as I know they have not made it available to the public again. The "process of preparing" a new book can go on for years and years. Some of their books have been in the "proof" stages for decades. I am not trying to mislead anyone. I am telling what I know, and after seven years of membership, I have read AND been tested on a good portion of their literature. Of course after ONLY seven years, I had not reached a level where I was given even a statement of faith. That was given to me by an ex-member. If you think they are giving you and DO the whole truth as non-members, then you are GREATLY mistaken.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 676 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:32 pm:        U-G, your words are both wrong and offensive. Your 'pearls before swine' statement is a true insult, placing words in the mouths of others for which you have absolutely no right or position or authority .. you should reconsider and apologize to HH for making a third-party uninformed harsh accusation. You are speaking in the worst way from ignorance and animus. That is really the important issue, the rest is secondary. ======= The roots of the 'Jesus come in the flesh' understanding go way back. Essentially you are still floating the myth that there was some sort of abrupt radical change in HH perspective. You are wrong on that. And I am reasonably up on their literature and teaching on that perspective. As I have mentioned, I even quoted some of the literature and studied the verses in John carefully and even discussed them some in Christian doctrinal circles. When I did that a while back I sent to HH a couple of the commentary source references I had found as well. Why you nonetheless think I am unawares of the doctrinal exegetical base is perplexing. And you are wrong, I did respond to the level question. So far it seems to me that most of the nature of that is those who are not fully attending the meetings, something I have discussed in some depth a number of times. And of course those in ministry might have ministry materials. The details of more beyond that, I am simply unawares. (eg. there may be more of an introductory period for many folks today, which is understandable). I haven't seen any cogent writing on this forum and the topic has not come up elsewhere so I can have little more to comment. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 677 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:57 pm:        F_H, Why do you write as if the 'statement of faith' is something that was held back from you? We did discuss this earlier. (Here I will go out on one of my limbs and give what I think is the HH perspective and history, generally, happy to be corrected.) HH decided that the 'statement of faith' methodology is limited and dubious. A point of view that is very understandable since they tend to be one-dimensional, limited, stifling and used for target practice. This decision goes way back and has never been superseded. And you received something from the ex-member from earlier times (little used then) and is not in use in any capacity. For you to act like it was dangling like a carrot, rather than simply a non-factor, is simply deliberately giving the forum a mis-impression, as if the number of years was the issue, when it was not. Again, I may be wrong on all this, and if so, I will be happy to be corrected. If I am right, though, you should write accurately. The bedrock discussion really has two factors. One is that HH truly believes that folks put themselves in doctrinal boxes on such issues, they quickly look for 'causes of offense' - as we see on this forum. (Look at the bump-meister fella behind the scenes - whose group attacks any one-God-doctrine group as a cult teaching doctrines of demons.) The 'Christian' apologetic world is in a very sad state and folks best receive some TLC in a spiritual sense to come to more spiritual sense. Therefore the unraveling of various doctrinal confusions is often best done gently, personally, in relationship, rather than bludgeoning in various ways out of time and sequence. From what I have seen in the doctrinal denominational circles HH is absolutely right about this as a general truth. I have seen many hurt and unsure and hostile by the more common approach. In fact HH moved in this direction at the very beginning, finding that the confrontational, adversarial path was often counter-productive to sound teaching. (I remember in early days how I were shown, through my own bumbling, that the 'debate the Trinity' thing often left only bruises and scars, no teachings.) The second part of this is that HH is also involved in putting forth sound teaching publicly in this regard. The Bedrock I consider to have been a really fine book, and I hope that the follow-up will be even finer. You are concerned that they take a while to actually publish, and such projects are very laborious and carefully done. Ok, fair enough. However, as where you claim to accept their motives and intentions in ministry, I challenge you to also accept their motives and intentions in publishing. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1424 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.58.97 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 3:20 pm:        Poor Prax...with all his knowledge of "big" words and all is name calling...he still cannot live what he runs his mouth so much about... Sign death covenant? No he cannot do that.... Become a member of HH? No he cannot do that... HH will not sign a document of faith and even if they did they would not put all that "stuff" in it they claim that God has revealed to them... Not even Mr.Prax can explain their befumbled doctrine... and not even all their members KNOW ALL their secret doctrines... Under Grace....You all are welcome anytime to come see us...Thanks so much for your prayers...   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 354 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.9.90.42 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 3:54 pm:        Prax, I did not mean to offend you or HH regarding the "pearls before swine" statement. I was quoting something I heard often in HH. The comment would be people are not able to handle the truth and it is given on a need to know basis or otherwise it is "casting pearls before swine". Not that you do not know any truth but you are not ready for a particular truth because you have not attained to that level. I will however, defer to you and HH and ask for you to forgive my analogy, I will not use it again in this context. I assume then since you understand the "Jesus come in the flesh" that you agree this is true doctrine and you need an authority over you that you submit to in the way that FH, UG and others have described happens in HH. If that is true then do you have a simalar group that you are submitted to and if not how are you going to make it if you do not conform to this doctrine? The other possibility is you do not believe that the leadership in HH operates in the manner we have described. If you go with this possibility can we conclude you think our experiences are false? If you believe it by definition you have to go with it and if you do not why do you defend it so? Still happily abiding....... Under Grace   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 330 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 3:56 pm:        If you consider{The Bed Rock}a really fine book, then why would they not share it? Just how are they non-secretive of their views if they don't have a "Statement of Faith"? HH decided that the 'statement of faith' methodology is limited and dubious. Limited and dubious??? Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember it being 40 full pages of details. Most churches can bring together at least their most important beliefs in one or two pages using scripture to back them up. I have some friends and now-ex-members who were given an HH statement of faith AFTER I had joined. By the way, they were told, "It is for your eyes only." It was another ex-member who gave me the copy I read, he got it from Watchman after having asked HH for it. He was still a member at the time. He had been for years. They told him repeatedly they didn't have one. Then he showed them the copy he got from Watchman and THEN they gave the spin you printed above. Imagine not even having a statement of faith for members? How far into the relationship should you be before you can be told ALL they believe? Anyways... I read it and there were at least two serious beliefs I had not yet been told after SEVEN years. There were some that I had read in the literature but I had not grasped where it was leading until then. No wonder it was such an offence even to members. Prax, surely you have read the statement of faith by now. You have a responsibility to since you are defending their beliefs. What do you think? Are you of one mind with them? Have you read the papers for baptism, you know, the ones that upset ART so much? You said you have read "some" literature on the "Jesus in the Flesh." I doubt you can grasp the level and depth it really goes to in HH until you have seen it in practice and experienced it, but what was the title of the book you read? Did they just give you a few pages or have you read How Do You Know,By What Authority, and Order of Perfection,? (Which if I remember Order of Perfection,was in two volumes.) Sincerely, FH   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1425 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.58.97 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 4:01 pm:        Yes, I have some of their papers that they wrote on it...for your eyes only... why such a secret?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 331 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 5:14 pm:        Under Grace-If you believe it by definition you have to go with it and if you do not why do you defend it so? How true!!! I really have been trying to understand just what Prax knows and agrees with. In HH's belief , he has to walk in the light he is given, and that would include HH's "tangible" Jesus gospel. Does he really understand them and agree with them, or does he think they don't exist? He obviously has not been told of the three levels each with their own three levels. Prax, there IS "Friday Status" and "Sunday Status." But, for as long as I was there these were never confused with the three levels in which of- on the third level you are a constitutional member of the Body of Christ / a son of God. I was wondering why you brought up the Sunday thing again. Here you thought I brought it up. I wasn’t even thinking of them. They are not corresponding with the three levels teaching. You go to Sunday meetings when they feel you are ready. When I was in HH, you read HH literature and answered the questions like a test to be sure you understood it. Then you went on to the next book when they felt you were ready. I was told by them that at each level you cover a lot of the same things but at a deeper level. The levels correspond to the three courts of the temple. They also corresponded to your relationship with God; you were either a slave of God, a friend of God, or a son of God. We didn't go around talking about what level we were on, we just kept pressing to get more literature read when our busy lives let us, and hoped to move forward. There was the general feeling that it had just as much to do with your level of involvement, your level of dependence, your level of submission, and your trust of them and vise-versa, as it did to how far you were in the literature. This is honestly my very best understanding of what I read and knew. (And I did do the questions/test at the end of the books and pass on to the next book etc.) I promise you I am not try to twist anything or play any games. (Message edited by foreverhis on December 06, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 332 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 6:28 pm:        You said a couple times that it may just be a matter of the degree things are taken to. I can only promise you that I do not lie when I say things, especially the authority, have been taken to degrees that are abusive and evil and all in the name of God. (And I think the intentions are to preserve what is there that IS good. I don’t consider the men evil in and of themselves. I was told they believe, for at least some of it, that “the ends justify the means.” Unfortunately some of the ends do end up tragically. I can honestly say that unless they have parents or relatives who heard and still believe the Gospel, that a child growing up there is unlikely to hear it. Other than in a testimony from a believer who was visiting, I never heard the Gospel contained in the four books of the new testament. Many have said the same thing. That is the most tragic; having eternal consequences.) You choose not to believe me, and I honestly understand that. Homestead looks so pristine and it looks like a dream come true. I can condone excusing most mistakes and a minor errors. As long as we are on this earth and dealing with this flesh of ours, no church will be even close to perfect. I agree that discipleship and community living are, or at least can be, instruments used by God to refine us meet each others needs as members of a body. That is what I was hoping to find in HH. I did find it to some extent. But there is so MUCH more that is not right in both the doctrines and the extreme un-questionable authority. Much harm has been done to some, and it is even scarier to know that the doctrines leave room for much worse. The bad out weighs the good by a long shot. The problem is opening our eyes up to it. The desire for the good, for what you want to see to be true, is enough cause denial of the wrongs. The fact that most of the serious wrongs are hid or excused the best they can be, and the teaching of “casting thoughts,” and “God will make it all right even if it is bad,” makes it close to impossible to “see” the reality of what is happening around you. God Bless the Homestead people, Robin   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 767 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.236.230 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 6:55 pm:        Hello FH, It really seems to me that you are shooting yourself in the foot here. On one hand you go on and on about how much "gunk" HH made you read, and then you go on and on about how you didn't know what you were getting into with HH. It really seems to me as if you are trying to have your cake and eat it to. The bottom line is this. Your opinion is right in your own eyes. But instead of leaving it at that, you have taken it upon yourself to "straighten out" HH. And in the process smear any kind of witness HH may have, destroy HH's reputation in the community and generally cause them as much grief as possible. Your approach is a very disgusting one of "I am right, HH is wrong, so if you know what's good for ya', don't get in my way." When everything you have written is broken down, it is glaringly apparent that you are on a crusade, and until your bloodlust is satisfied you will continue marching against HH. I pray that one day you will awaken and be able to see the foolishness of your actions here on FN. May God have Mercy on you. DOwen.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 768 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.236.230 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 6:58 pm:        Oh yeah, and to top it all off, you close with, "God Bless the Homestead People" Sheesh. What a joke you have become. Yeah yeah, God bless those poor pitiful duped fools at HH. I love them so much I am going to do all I can to cause them as much grief as possible, but God Bless 'em.... God bless the nazis.... That is what you are saying.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 678 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 7:44 pm:        F_H, "and THEN they gave the spin you printed above." Curious... what 'spin' did I print above ? I said clearly that I was sharing my (limited) understanding and background on this, which has not been my issue and history. And that in any place I am wrong I would be happy to be corrected. Anyway, I gather I was right on something, since you call it 'spin'. ====== On a more serious matter .. I notice sadly again that Mrs. Alvear continues with the very sick brujeria lingo. Please, I hope some of you have the integrity to try to help her out. If the back-channel is not working, then you should have the integrity to speak up right here, and right now. Yes, this means you. To my heart, this is far more significant that anything else we are discussing currently. Our accountability before God for idle words is very deep. And, please understand, blasphemy cannot be masked by listing all our prophesies and wondrous works and devils cast out. This is very clear in scripture and something very real and very dark is at play and needs repentance and cleansing. I say this not light-heartedly. And an understanding of what is involved here should lead to a simple and sincere apology to HH. And if not from Mrs. Alvear then at least the helpful covering from others who in other matters consider her their compatriot and friend. Steps are needed, lines have to be drawn. Folks to step into the breach, offering their own apology in place and clear disassociation from vile words. The proper steps can bring forth the peaceable fruits of righteousness. This is a very deep and serious matter and needs attention from any with a heart for God and to help their friends in faith. Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 06, 2006)   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 53 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 9:28 pm:        Prax said............... HH decided that the 'statement of faith' methodology is limited and dubious. A point of view that is very understandable since they tend to be one-dimensional, limited, stifling and used for target practice. SG........Virtually every church in the world has and makes available their statement of faith. It’s who they are and what they believe. For a group to ‘hide’ their SOF shows they are so far off center in the Christian faith. They want their members to be transparent yet they hide all their beliefs. Anyone that can’t see the error in this is blind. Prax said............... Therefore the unraveling of various doctrinal confusions is often best done gently, personally, in relationship, rather than bludgeoning in various ways out of time and sequence. From what I have seen in the doctrinal denominational circles HH is absolutely right about this as a general truth. I have seen many hurt and unsure and hostile by the more common approach. SG...............Prax, you are a master of twisting; exactly like the group you defend. To ‘unravel’ or expose their doctrine personally and in relationship is proof that they feed the members what they think they are individually ready to hear; based on how well each submits to their past teachings. That’s one main reason so many leave. They become members and THEN they learn the truth about what they have become involved in. EXACTLY WHY HH WILL NOT TELL EVERYTHING UP FRONT. They flat tell a potential member, “If we tell you everything up front you will run away”. That’s what they told me! And I was too stupid to realize just what they had implied.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 9:29 pm:        You are defending this group and going far beyond the ‘counterpoint’ argument. Therefore I stand by my statement that you are their spokesman. And you are not in your right mind to expect some of the posters to apologize to this abusive entity. How absurd. These folks are speaking from experience, experience you lack, and have heartfelt testimonies. Testimonies of abuse, of hurt, of heartbreak, of embarrassment, of being misled, of being used and on and on and on. You put down their thoughts and insult the very God you pretend to know by attempting to harm His children. You will one day stand before God’s throne and answer for all this. And God will not be amused by your erudite terminology.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 769 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:10 pm:        Hello again GlorySeeker, How's the quest going? Have you found any glory lately? If so, let me know where you found it, I could use some. Ahem. Seriously buddy, you need to get a grip on some simple realities. Numero uno, KNOW WHEN IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON. It's been what, four years since you left HH? Four years! It is time to move on amigo! Just let bygones be bygones, and get on with your life. It is really not that hard. Do you really think that sitting at your computer, spouting nonsense about a Church you used to attend, is doing anybody any good? Seriously. It seems to me that you are just throwing a full blown, two year old style, temper tantrum here. Again, get over it. Or, maybe we should have a pity party for you. Everybody together now.......Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Poor poor GlorySeeker. He lost his glory, and now he's trying to find it.   aferrill New member Username: aferrill Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.64.110.1 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:11 pm:        My group always said to look in the Word. They said everything was based on the Word. It was a total lie. They would use parts of scripture and twist it around to support their purpose. They had a statement of faith and all it was good for was fire kindling. In one church we were told it was easy to get in and hard to leave. That speaks volumes. Before you know it, you're suckered and don't even know it! God forbid you should talk about your perceptions or you'd be accused of gossip. Even if I don't understand why any of you left your group, I'd still put my arms around you and try to make the hurt go away. Being heard and understood takes the horrible burden off our shoulders. Keep talking! Keep screaming! It means a lot to us. Ok, off my soapbox.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:14 pm:        Daniel, You are exactly the type of personality that is in leadership at HH. Your posts prove our point.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 56 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:16 pm:        May God help you Daniel. You need it.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 57 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:18 pm:        Do you really think that sitting at your computer, spouting nonsense about a Church you used to attend, is doing anybody any good? WARNING OTHERS IS DOING A LOT OF GOOD.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1426 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.59.168 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:39 pm:        poor prax...keep on my case it doesn't bother me...I will keep posting TRUTH... Prax have you joined HH??????????????? Of course not...you won't will you...come on make my day and see what level you are on... Maybe you should ask ... about the baptismal deal....do you agree?????????   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 770 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:47 pm:        Oh come on now GlorySeeker, Do you really think that your "warnings" are going to be heeded here on FACTNet? Seriously dude, here on FN there are "warnings" against every brand of religion out there. From Billy Graham to the Moonies to black helicopters, posters here are busily "warning" others of so-called cults. Are you truly so high on some 'delusions of granduer' trip that you think your 'warnings' are actually given any weight at all? Come on buddy, you've been had. OW and his merry band of instigators have fooled you like they have fooled so many others. One thing is certain, if you are truly looking for glory, you won't find it here. So live up to your name.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 772 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 11:55 pm:        GlorySeeker, I stumbled on this thread here on FN a minute ago; http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/1804.html?1122346290 (Watch out for the strong language on it) Read that thread, and then look me in the eye and tell me that you feel posting anything on a website containing such garbage is worthy of merit. In my opinion, lumping HH in with such vile garbage is revolting. Once again, glory is hard to come by in this arena. Keep searching.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 679 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 2:40 am:        S-G You 'stand by' your own fabrication that I am some sort of 'spokesman'? That is pretty dumb. The fact of the matter is that you are surprised that a former member and friend of HH is happy and able to discuss point-by-point, carefully, many of these various kvetches that are thrown out. And to show that many or most are simply nothings. Some are vapid, some are self-serving, some are perception, some are twisting, some are masks for personal rebellion. And to the extent that reasonable issues are raised they are being raised in a forum that is designed improperly from the get-go. Designed to be a place of railing accusation. With weird strings pulled to get the ball moving, the psycho-babble type of pseudo-Christianity and secularist anti-Christian drivel that is given approval and support by a supposed Christian apologetic organization. Now as to what I share above .. actually I have seen a lot of the truth of these matters in my years away from HH such as how 'statements of faith' are used largely for target practice in the popular arena. Or how the 'Oneness/Trinity/Arian/other' debate has become a motley, sad game of smug self-assurance in many circles, where the spirit of God is given little place to move and minister. Much is very wrong in the established circles and HH has taken many steps to be a part of an alternative path of respect and communication. ==== However. Much more important, above, is your response defending the sick and lying blasphemy of the brujeria poisonous phrase that Mrs. Alvear has brought back to the forum. "And you are not in your right mind to expect some of the posters to apologize to this abusive entity. How absurd." Actually S-G, some of the posters in opposition have properly and thoughtfully apologized for the offense of the sick lingo and it was clear that they had used the phrase more in haste or team unity or momentary convenience than out of any attempt to taint, lie or deceive by deliberately using the shamanistic/brujeria/suicide-bombing-murder-cult vitriol language. Their apologies were well-spoken and essentially unqualified and deeply, deeply appreciated. I will venture to say that they were appreciated by HH as well as myself. That closed a vital, fundamental issue here peacefully, respectfully and righteously for those individuals - although I do hope they are actively now continuing behind the scenes to help any others who are using or defending poison. At the time I noted that some others who should have similarly apologized did not. Although for a short season they did forego the sick language so I let the issue drop. Even though they will not be right with God on this until a simple and sincere apology is forthcoming. With the return of the acrid lingo, at this point there is no more significant issue on this forum. None. S_G, truth and integrity remain foremost in any situation. As you are taking an 'end justifies the means' approach to justify the poison it is hard to consider your posts, only your spiritual sickness. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 07, 2006) (Message edited by praxaluh on December 07, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 333 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.99 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 5:03 am:        Prax, you are doing it again. Sister Alvear quickly made it plain this time that by her use of the phrase “death covenant” she means “till death do us part.” http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=365630#POST365630 Sister Alvear /Missionary Lady wrote: Have you signed a death convenant???????????? You know..till death do us part with HH? Of course not... YOU cannot and will not.... Prax wrote: To my heart, this is far more significant that anything else we are discussing currently. We established in another thread that you are the ONLY one here giving the phrase “death covenant” the “shamanistic/brujeria/suicide-bombing-murder-cult” meaning. That straw man you used before to get us off topic will not work again.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 334 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.99 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:16 am:        FH wrote: Sure, I am not as educated as you are with all your big words. IF a higher education is necessary to be saved, then surely most of man kind is lost, and Jesus who spoke to the multitude, the poor, and the meek wasted His breath... I fear for you, or any man, who condemns those who believe by faith, instead of head knowledge and big words. Beware, unless you become a stumbling block to the children of God. Beware that you don’t put your faith in your knowledge OF God and never know Him intimately abiding in you by faith. I am praying for you. Prax's reply: To point out that folks are seeking causes of offense is not 'belittling' any individual poster by any stretch. I have been very clear that if some one wants to raise doctrinal differences (simple example: a staunch orthodox creedal Trinitarian saying 'they are not accepting the Athanasian Creed as a foundational truth') and share them with other folks, go right ahead. We may differ but we will have a good discussion. Now me again Prax you have always tried to get me into big word discussions on Messiahology, soteriology, eschatology, and atology, (sheesh, most of the word weren’t even recognized by Microsoft Word.) I have told you before that I can’t communicate using that language. You use your vitriol, (your word,) to belittle me and those I speak about who by the Spirit have unity. Why? Because we are not united by rules and the manditory accepting of one man's doctrinal interpretations like you find in HH? My main purpose by this post is not to try to defend myself. I only hope for you to see how cold, cruel, and arrogant you can come across as when you think you are coming across as wise. Here are a few clips just from this thread, but if you look back in others you will find this is a pattern of yours. Prax: “And when you share a little, it falls flat. How all the Catholics and Protestants in Appalachia make for one happy spiritual family helping one another. This is your deep truth of doctrinal understanding.” “In what realm ? (soteriology, eschatology, etc .. as much focus as you can muster)” “trying to fight battles that simply are reflections of your own confusions.” “And from your perch of who-knows-what-you-believe…”   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 335 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.99 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:18 am:        Do you think maybe if you make me sound stupid no one will listen to me? I left HH over their “other Gospel,” and scripture twisting and the majority of my posts are about their doctrines. Just because I can’t use the big words, doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to talk about it. I believed and lived their doctrine for seven years. I have shared long posts about what I believe; absent your big words, but most understand that I believe the simple clear Gospel that is so simple it has become a “stumbling block to the wise.” 1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." (Message edited by foreverhis on December 07, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 336 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.99 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:22 am:        Will you answer UnderGrace? I assume then since you understand the "Jesus come in the flesh" that you agree this is true doctrine and you need an authority over you that you submit to in the way that FH, UG and others have described happens in HH. If that is true then do you have a simalar group that you are submitted to and if not how are you going to make it if you do not conform to this doctrine? The other possibility is you do not believe that the leadership in HH operates in the manner we have described. If you go with this possibility can we conclude you think our experiences are false? If you believe it by definition you have to go with it and if you do not why do you defend it so? Still happily abiding....... Under Grace (Message edited by foreverhis on December 07, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 680 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:15 am:        F_H, the question from U_G is what I call one of the more reasonable questions here. Meaning that the question is good even if Factnet is a tinged and tainted place for discussion with a general hyena and vulture atmosphere. Despite the atmosphere, I look forward to responding to same. However I am drawing the forum's attention to a far more important issue that has re-arisen. A blasphemy on the forum that really needs to be dealt with, a cleansing that is needed. The sick words about which many posters should speak with one voice. To try to help deliver Mrs. Alvear from the bondage of poisonous and acrid words that corrupt and deceive. A person can truly come into bondage from their own idle words. Perhaps you are active on a back channel. However I am waiting for some indication of a real integrity by the folks here who must understand the significance of this and have been turning their heads and looking away. Neither winks and nods or winces and cringes will cut it. What the forum needs is a real indication of speaking words that will help bring this to a full and complete and proper end. That an apology will come forth from Mrs. Alvear and the one or two others who have supported this abomination. Lacking that, enough peer pressure that the truth is clear to all - and hopefully will cause her to restrain her tongue .. along with apologies given to HH for the words from folks who in other matters are her friend. Such a third-party standing in the breach may be unusual but is far more true and real and acceptable than silence. In some cases we must speak up clearly about the actions or words from those with whom we make voluntary and willing alliance and association. And actively disassociate ourselves from certain of their words. That is the case here. Shalom, Praxaluh   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 948 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.239.204.153 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 9:41 am:        Even though they will not be right with God on this until a simple and sincere apology is forthcoming. ?????????????????? Do you think maybe if you make me sound stupid no one will listen to me? Believe me, FH, you are not the one sounding stupid on this thread! Keep up the good work!   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1427 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:21 am:        Prax you poor thing! Do you think I back away from TRUTH because of you or you silly writings? Most of your writings are so far off you have no earthly ideal who I am or what I KNOW ABOUT hh. Since when were you appointed to cover for a cult that destroys relationships, judges others, claims superior knowledge that all other christians? I THINK YOU should repent for trying to convience others to join something that is PROVED to be false and unbiblical in their teachings... You have not explained the baptismal change to me yet that so upset ... doubt if you even know about it or anything else you blabber about here... We are still waiting for you to become a full pledged member so they can examine your level and put you though some classes...lol... Prax you have no ideal what our family witnessed there and saw on the mission field. shall I publish some of the letters our people wrote bewildered at the double standard they saw right here in Brazil not to mention there in the states... My son Michael is wanting to write a lot here...but at the moment my husband said for me to post and be the voice for our family and churches. We are waiting for you to put your actions where your mouth is...move to the village of hh....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1428 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:36 am:        Prax you poor thing! Do you think I back away from TRUTH because of you or you silly writings? Most of your writings are so far off you have no earthly ideal who I am or what I KNOW ABOUT hh. Since when were you appointed to cover for a cult that destroys relationships, judges others, claims superior knowledge that all other christians? I THINK YOU should repent for trying to convience others to join something that is PROVED to be false and unbiblical in their teachings... You have not explained the baptismal change to me yet that so upset ... doubt if you even know about it or anything else you blabber about here... We are still waiting for you to become a full pledged member so they can examine your level and put you though some classes...lol... Prax you have no ideal what our family witnessed there and saw on the mission field. shall I publish some of the letters our people wrote bewildered at the double standard they saw right here in Brazil not to mention there in the states... My son Michael is wanting to write a lot here...but at the moment my husband said for me to post and be the voice for our family and churches. We are waiting for you to put your actions where your mouth is...move to the village of hh....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1429 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 1:00 pm:        PRAX.... I think you forgot what abomination really is. God destests many of the things that go on at HH using his name in vain....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1430 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 2:29 pm:        Exodus 8:26 But Moses said, "It is not right to do so, for we will sacrifice to the LORD our God what is an abomination to the Egyptians. If we sacrifice what is an abomination to the Egyptians before their eyes, will they not then stone us? Exodus 8:25-27 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter) Leviticus 18:22 ' You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Leviticus 18:21-23 (in Context) Leviticus 18 (Whole Chapter) Leviticus 18:26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you Leviticus 18:25-27 (in Context) Leviticus 18 (Whole Chapter) Leviticus 18:27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled); Leviticus 18:26-28 (in Context) Leviticus 18 (Whole Chapter) Leviticus 18:29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people. Leviticus 18:28-30 (in Context) Leviticus 18 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 7:25 "The graven images of their gods you are to burn with fire; you shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, or you will be snared by it, for it is an abomination to the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 7:24-26 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 7:26 "You shall not bring an abomination into your house, and like it come under the ban; you shall utterly detest it and you shall utterly abhor it, for it is something banned. Deuteronomy 7:25-26 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1431 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 2:48 pm:        Deuteronomy 13:14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you, Deuteronomy 13:13-15 (in Context) Deuteronomy 13 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 22:4-6 (in Context) Deuteronomy 22 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 23:18 "You shall not bring the hire of a harlot or the wages of a dog into the house of the LORD your God for any votive offering, for both of these are an abomination to the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 23:17-19 (in Context) Deuteronomy 23 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 24:4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance. Deuteronomy 24:3-5 (in Context) Deuteronomy 24 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 25:16 "For everyone who does these things, everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 25:15-17 (in Context) Deuteronomy 25 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 27:15 'Cursed is the man who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination to the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret ' And all the people shall answer and say, 'Amen.' Deuteronomy 27:14-16 (in Context) Deuteronomy 27 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 29:17 moreover, you have seen their abominations and their idols of wood, stone, silver, and gold, which they had with them); Deuteronomy 29:16-18 (in Context) Deuteronomy 29 (Whole Chapter) Deuteronomy 32:16 " They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger. Deuteronomy 32:15-17 (in Context) Deuteronomy 32 (Whole Chapter)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1432 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 2:52 pm:        1 Kings 14:24 There were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD dispossessed before the sons of Israel. 1 Kings 14:23-25 (in Context) 1 Kings 14 (Whole Chapter) 2 Kings 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and even made his son pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out from before the sons of Israel. 2 Kings 16:2-4 (in Context) 2 Kings 16 (Whole Chapter) 2 Kings 21:2 He did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD dispossessed before the sons of Israel. 2 Kings 21:1-3 (in Context) 2 Kings 21 (Whole Chapter) 2 Kings 21:11 " Because Manasseh king of Judah has done these abominations, having done wickedly more than all the Amorites did who were before him, and has also made Judah sin with his idols; 2 Kings 21:10-12 (in Context) 2 Kings 21 (Whole Chapter) 2 Kings 23:13 The high places which were before Jerusalem, which were on the right of the mount of destruction which Solomon the king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Sidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Milcom the abomination of the sons of Ammon, the king defiled. 2 Kings 23:12-14 (in Context) 2 Kings 23 (Whole Chapter) 2 Kings 23:24 Moreover, Josiah removed the mediums and the spiritists and the teraphim and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might confirm the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD. 2 Kings 23:23-25 (in Context) 2 Kings 23 (Whole Chapter) 2 Chronicles 28:3 Moreover, he burned incense in the valley of Ben-hinnom and burned his sons in fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out before the sons of Israel. 2 Chronicles 28:2-4 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 28 (Whole Chapter) 2 Chronicles 33:2 He did evil in the sight of the LORD according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD dispossessed before the sons of Israel. 2 Chronicles 33:1-3 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 33 (Whole Chapter) 2 Chronicles 34:33 Josiah removed all the abominations from all the lands belonging to the sons of Israel, and made all who were present in Israel to serve the LORD their God. Throughout his lifetime they did not turn from following the LORD God of their fathers. 2 Chronicles 34:32-33 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 34 (Whole Chapter) 2 Chronicles 36:8 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim and the abominations which he did, and what was found against him, behold, they are written in the Book of the Kings of Israel and Judah. And Jehoiachin his son became king in his place. 2 Chronicles 36:7-9 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 36 (Whole Chapter)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1434 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 2:57 pm:        2 Chronicles 36:14 Furthermore, all the officials of the priests and the people were very unfaithful following all the abominations of the nations; and they defiled the house of the LORD which He had sanctified in Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles 36:13-15 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 36 (Whole Chapter) Ezra 9:1 [ Mixed Marriages ] Now when these things had been completed, the princes approached me, saying, "The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands, according to their abominations, those of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians and the Amorites. Ezra 9:1-3 (in Context) Ezra 9 (Whole Chapter) Ezra 9:11 which You have commanded by Your servants the prophets, saying, 'The land which you are entering to possess is an unclean land with the uncleanness of the peoples of the lands, with their abominations which have filled it from end to end and with their impurity. Ezra 9:10-12 (in Context) Ezra 9 (Whole Chapter) Ezra 9:14 shall we again break Your commandments and intermarry with the peoples who commit these abominations? Would You not be angry with us to the point of destruction, until there is no remnant nor any who escape? Ezra 9:13-15 (in Context) Ezra 9 (Whole Chapter) Proverbs 3:32 For the devious are an abomination to the LORD;But He is intimate with the upright. Proverbs 3:31-33 (in Context) Proverbs 3 (Whole Chapter) Proverbs 6:16 There are six things which the LORD hates,Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Proverbs 6:15-17 (in Context) Proverbs 6 (Whole Chapter)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1435 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 3:33 pm:        and shall we continue Prax...an abonation is something God detests... These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19). I saw lies at HH...is it alright to lie because you are on the perfect level? I saw people mistreated at HH is it alright for leaders to mistreat God´s wee lambs? I saw innocent souls murdered by their false doctrines. Guess that must be ok if they are murdered by top level men? I saw them imagine to force us to become a part of them by using God´s name. I set in their long planned service trying to convience us they were God´s chosen people for some kind of last day mission. I saw too much, heard too much, to ever agree that something like that is the body of Christ and much less that they are jesus in the flesh. I think it is a sin to lie. Lots of things might not be a sin but to outright lie is a sin. I think the leaders of the village need to confess that they tried to destroy certain people and maybe we could at least have the feeling that God is beginning to work in their hearts. When men sit themselves up to be gods and use scare tatics on people something is wrong. You know why people have never proved anything I have said is a lie? It is because they cannot. I have not lied in anyway. I cannot accept all prax´s vain empty words about the village at waco because he is not a part of what is going on there...he only knows what he is told. HE is their messenger boy. I feel sorry for him because he does not know in reality what he is defending...IF THE CAUSE I was defending was not good enough for me to live it, be a part of it...then something would be wrong. He does not live like the village lives or even believe like the village believes...He has his foundation on shifting sand if you ask me... \oh,yes he will come back with a lot of big words asking for people to be on his side just like he has done in several posts... Let it be made known now...I ask no one to be on my side...for I am not playing tug a war... Truth needs no promps...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 773 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.236.230 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 5:36 pm:        Truth needs no promps... (ML) Then why in the world are you here Lady? __________________________________ Also, you are right, Truth does not need a prom. Or even two or three.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 775 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.236.230 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:08 pm:        Before anybody jumps on my case and accuses me of mocking ML, please, it was obvious what she meant. I am just trying to lighten the mood here. DOwen.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1436 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:31 pm:        So you want to know why I am here? I am here to defend those that have no voice at all. I am here to defend truth. I am here to say people do not have to serve God in fear of their leaders. I am here to defend those that have been blindly lead to believe that they must be crushed by men and have no voice whatsoever in their salvation. I am here to defend those that have been rudly aborted and cut off from their families. I am here to defend the brainwashed and hope and pray that someway they will come to understand men are not jesus in the flesh. I am here to defend those that HH lied on and lead others to believe their lies. I am here to defend that each person can have a personal walk with God. I am here to defend the hopless, the dying...I am here to defend the poor, the suffering, the scared. I am here to say that HH has no special unique revelation of future days and no spiritual bread for the church. I am here to say that God is not revealing his word at the village as His word is forever settled in heaven. I am here to defend that we do not have to have Watch tower writings or HH writings to guide us to know the will of God. I am here to defend GOD`S WORD and His reputation. Why His reputation you may ask. God does not hold some rod over us scaring us at funerals. God does not take advantage of bad situations to beat us over the head. God does not pressure people until they kill their own. I am here to defend that we do not have to have some self called prophet to be our new Abraham. Jesus said, "Learn of me for I am meek and lowly..." I SAW NO MEEKNESS on the part of HH leaders... Forcing people to do the will of someone else is associated with Egypt not with JESUS. I am here to defend good men and women of God that neither bend or bow to get out of hard situations. Some may back down at pressure, name calling or whatever...I WILL STAND FOR TRUTH and what is right. I do not favor shady deals, putting kids for weeks locked away to teach them obedience. I am here to say we don´t have to preach a message that we cannot live... now did that lighten the mood? Just the word HH brings a heavy feeling on my heart...to think of what they could have been and see the direction that they are going...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1437 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:53 pm:        That is right TRUTH will stand up for itself alone..that is why I AM NOT AFRAID to post here or anywhere I love truth...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 681 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:57 pm:        Tis interesting what we see today. With F-H, the bit of real integrity that was shown on the forum .. when she responsibly and humbly apologized for the sick terminology .. thrown away for a mess of porridge .. for politics. Tis a shame to see the depth of depravity from the posters here. Even those who at time put up a facade of sweetness like Robin .. the facade falls, the mask comes off, and the vitriolic anger, the lying tongue, toward God is revealed. Actually returning to vomit to defend the abomination of 'death covenant'. Very sick. And very telling. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 682 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:04 pm:        Hi Folks, Perhaps the proper name for Robin, following her example, should now be the 'wicked witch of Appalachia'. After all, the term 'wicked' is used like 'bad' these days .. it really can mean positive, good. And witch .. well often they are portrayed as demon-fighters and anyway the term is meant as a social term .. not with all the messy baggage in some circles. The phrases are very similar - Robin, the 'wicked witch of Appalachia'. Groups who encourage a 'death covenant'.. Nothing wrong really meant, don't be concerned about the clear and normal and obvious vicious viper sense and implication. Don't be concerned if it is a bald-faced lie coming from the demonic realm. Speak whatever rolls off your tongue. That is the license of rebellion of these folks here on Factnet, Robin, Mrs. Alvear and some others. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1438 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:17 pm:        and you PRAX..YOU MUST BE superman ...lol One thing we know you cannot defend truth...because you do not know truth...so defend whatever makes you feel the best...resorting to name calling seems to be your little game...must have run out of those big words...you want me to send you some of HH position papers...lots of big words there...lol...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1439 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:32 pm:        so if we tell the truth we are witches and from the demonic realm. lol... Truth frees people and does not leave them in some scared village...prohibited from even reading a newspaper... TRUTH does not make members tell each other don´t mention this or that to the leaders...FEAR does that...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1440 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:48 pm:        the depth of depravity ...reminds me of the quote.. 'he depth of grace people can rise to or the depth of depravity that people can stoop to". PRAX YOU TELL US WHO IS DEPRAVED?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1441 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:57 pm:        where did your post go prax?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1442 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 9:14 pm:        Prax calls someone depraved then erases the post...is that what happened prax...did you get scared? Rebellion..I heard a long time ago that HH called me rebellious...they called several people by that name when I WAS THERE...SHAME ON YOU PRAX... If we bow to their Baal we are sweet...kind humble christians...but if we see through all the talk we are rebellious...   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:01 pm:        Prax said.................The fact of the matter is that you are surprised that a former member and friend of HH is happy and able to discuss point-by-point, carefully, many of these various kvetches that are thrown out. And to show that many or most are simply nothings. SG.........Not surprised at all. You have a right to your opinion but to call the opinion of others ‘simply nothings’ is childish and offensive. Prax said......... Much is very wrong in the established circles and HH has taken many steps to be a part of an alternative path of respect and communication. SG..........Objection..............Pure fabrication. Prax said..................... Much more important, above, is your response defending the sick and lying blasphemy of the brujeria poisonous phrase that Mrs. Alvear has brought back to the forum. SG...............You twist and pervert the thoughts of others and claim you are correct and they are wrong. Then you present a offence to reproach the poster. Your tirades fall flat. Prax said........... Their apologies were well-spoken and essentially unqualified and deeply, deeply appreciated. I will venture to say that they were appreciated by HH as well as myself. That closed a vital, fundamental issue here peacefully, respectfully and righteously for those individuals - although I do hope they are actively now continuing behind the scenes to help any others who are using or defending poison. SG.............These apologies came from Christians who are trying to illustrate the nature of their heart unlike HH who will NOT apologize for all their wrongs. They use people like you and Daniel who belittle and scoff at any and all. They assume they are too perfect to admit they have screwed up. Prax said................ Even though they will not be right with God on this until a simple and sincere apology is forthcoming. SG...............Then it is safe to assume HH will not be right with God until they apologize to all the folks they have hurt and spoken ill of. Prax said............... S_G, truth and integrity remain foremost in any situation. As you are taking an 'end justifies the means' approach to justify the poison it is hard to consider your posts, only your spiritual sickness. SG..............Prax, YOU are the one that is spiritually sick. And look at Daniels posts. Talk about a kid with a foul mouth and crappy attitude. But then what should we expect? Fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:02 pm:        Anyone who wants to know just how HH deals with internal situations can just read Daniels posts. His father is a leader there. Like father...like son. Then read Prax’s posts. Just like Prax, HH will twist your thoughts and deride you trying to get you to submit to their assumed spiritual superiority. If they can confuse the issue they stand a better chance of winning the argument, just as Prax does here. It is wonderful the world is getting to see a small representation of HH from the words and expressions of a couple of their representatives. And my, isn’t it ugly. And so unbiblical. But then, that’s what we’ve been trying to say.   seekingglory Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.84 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:03 pm:        Prax, If you can get Blair Adams AND Howard Wheeler to both get on this board and offer a deep heartfelt apology to Janice for all the misery and pain they have inflected on her and her family THEN I will be most happy to see that she does the same. Since they originated this controversy by their evil actions they must be the first to try to resolve it. Prax, what you don’t see or if you do see you will not admit is that HH thinks they are ‘special’. They really think and say that they are ‘God’s chosen ones’. They really believe that HH is the New Jerusalem. And all others are wrong. And all others are lost. They really really believe and promote this amongst themselves. So sad. And so chilling for those inside who are so misled. But they are really just a group of people molded to fit a desire of the founder, a former hippie, who had a dream of what he has now managed to create from the blood and sweat of so many followers. If he decides to go away and rest or play, church is cancelled. A regular church meeting will not be held in his absence. If he doesn’t like what is happening in a meeting, he screams...stops his feet like a 3 year old..... and storms out the door while everyone just sits. Then slowly everybody just walks out and goes home. You will never hear him say, “Turn your bible to such and such”. He does not want you reading your bible during church; trying to follow along with what is being said. Most of the members have never heard of an ‘alter call’. No Prax, this is not a church. This is a private club. And a ‘tourist trap’ to capture income for the leaders. They have had 30 years to learn how to manipulate the system; especially the tax system (hello IRS); to appease the authorities, to fool the public and to avoid the scrutiny they should be held to. But it is about to start unraveling.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1443 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:09 pm:        HH is about to fall...Why? Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.. They would be surprized just who from the inside besides their "examining crew" are reading these posts...some are tired of suffering and faking a smile...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 776 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:59 pm:        The arrogance and self righteousness on this board is astounding. May God have Mercy on you.   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 949 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.239.204.2 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:47 am:        Dowen, You didn't specify, but I assume you were directing that last post at Prax?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 779 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:59 am:        Ahhhh, what a joker you are "CS". GlorySeeker's last post is one of the most closedminded, ignorant pieces I have ever read. His opening lines are astounding to me. These threads were started by that jackal OW, yet HH should come here and apologize for them? Good grief.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 337 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.138 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 2:10 am:        Prax, I am not going to get on here and do a name calling match with you or even try to defend myself. Your straw man is obvious. You are embarrassing yourself. May God have mercy on you and open your eyes. Lord bless him in everything, and give him a humble heart and open eyes to the truth. FH (Message edited by foreverhis on December 08, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 683 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 4:23 am:        F_H and S-G, As the two supporters of the truly sick 'death covenant' accusation you are still clueless. There is nothing minor about this, there is no diversion involved. This is in fact the defining issue on this forum. This is a very deep and very heavy issue of primary importance. It would be a very simple issue to end - if there was not a very dark spiritual principality involved. Simply speak properly and we would move on. Apologize for the error, a bit of acknowledgment, and a spiritual cleansing would be forthcoming. Then time to move on, all healthier, integrity intact. Instead, a blatant and vicious and even blasphemous lie is the mantra of a very deceived presentation by one woman and ... Not one of you will stand up for integrity and honesty, you are so blinded in your oppositional stance. Instead like little children caught stealing (and raised poorly) you come up with every excuse in the book. This is actually in a sense true of all the opposition. (Under_grace excluded, who gave an honest and sincere apology and left it at that. And he has not been very active on the board.) Every one of you have remained silent or coy. (My apology in advance to any other oppositionals if I omitted anyone who showed integrity on this but I cannot think of any.) The responsibility for the darkness now lies heaviest on S-G and F-H who actually defend the abominable and sick, who actually defend blasphemy. I don't really put the primary responsibility on Mrs. Alvear who seems to have lost control and simply cannot restrain her tongue. The primary responsibility for this abomination lies on S-G and F-H who, in their innards, in their heart and mind, know the truth yet still support the blasphemy. Shalom, Praxaluh PS. For about one month or two the forum was 'clean' on this issue, after the two apologies, one of which is now defacto defunct by the hypocrisy of Robin. And discussions were ongoing and possible. Now the actions of F_H and S-G above have revealed the depth of depravity in the heart of much of the opposition, who will defend the worst viper blasphemy for porridge, for opposition, for politics. Real discussion of course has fallen, is not possible. And Robin, you would do better to speak with integrity than to offer a public Pharisee-prayer. Those fall to the ground, they do not touch the heavenlies. (Message edited by praxaluh on December 08, 2006)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1445 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.140.129 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 9:12 am:        I have lost no control and am not known to gossip...I think my experience of 40 years has given me guildlines...BUT...I will stand up for truth and that is more than Prax does... I am not interested in impressing anyone for points or goodstanding it is important that I please my Jesus not not some group of men that call them selves Jesus and will not liesten to advice from well seasoned people. Pride has gone to their heads....in hh they may be jesus to the poor people there but I know the real Jesus that sets people free from bondage. I know the Jesus that does not mistreat people, does not take his spite out on others, does not scare people at funerals, does not make people go through all kinds of things that are already written on this board. I know Jesus that does not change His mind when people upset him. Sorry Prax you really need to pray...everybody is begging you to examine yourself and pray...you have no ideal of the REAL HH...or what goes on there behind your back... If real discussion has fallen then what do you resort to name calling...why did you take the post off where you called us depraved????????? I saw it before it was taken off...why do you call us witches and all kinds of names? I would say you are acting in the same spirit I saw in the leadership at HH...they reminded me of spoiled brats... Grow up...be mature... have enough backbone to see all that stuff the people have to live under at hh is wrong...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 684 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 9:25 am:        Hi Folks, There is absolutely no doubt. As mentioned above, the support of the blasphemous 'death covenant' brujeria-murder-lingo accusation that continually dribbles from Mrs. Alvear can only come from depths of depravity. No other source is possible. The accusation itself is dark, from demonic realms only, where the source of the phrase lies. And the sick and shocking support of the phrase by F-H and S-G definitely involves depravity .. 'defintion: morally bad or evil; vitiate; corrupt' Shalom, Praxlaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1446 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 9:28 am:        The truth we all know that HH is not right...and the more we know about them the more God will judge us for not speaking up against them. For he that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin... I refuse to over look such a depth of fear I witnessed there...Well, maybe later on today I will have time to tell a few happenings and how I saw the people react. Right now we are fixing to go out for lunch with another pastor and his wife it is our wedding ann. So I am in a hurry...more later...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 685 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 9:43 am:        Hi Folks, As to the three current, active users and defenders of the sick blasphemy. One.. discussed above .. Mrs. Alvear is simply in a place of no restraint. Her husband gave up his oversight role on her posts and the oppositional peers here (with one exception) are silent about the blasphemy, or even supportive. Therefore, no expectations of common sense and no tongue of holiness. None. Two .. S-G .. self-declared on forum essentially as a Mrs. Alvear supporter/defender/clone. Therefore in an awkward situation. Apparently cannot speak truth to oppose the blasphemy from Mrs. Alvear without compromising the original self-proclaimed role. Meanwhile S_G has made stumbling attempts to imitate my writing style, a rather insincere type of flattery. Three .. Robin .. the real sick shocker .. often proclaiming her respect for the motivations and intentions of HH, speaking silky, oh-so-kindly. At one point properly offered an apology for her earlier usage of the sick phrase. Then like a true Brutus turns around and supports the ugly, acrid blasphemy accusation sickness, digging deep for excuses. Purely a politician, a hypocrite. Transparent to the max. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 08, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 686 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 10:31 am:        Hi Folks, There may be some others who want to declare themselves as part of this Rogues Gallery, this - 'Hall of Shame of Sick Blasphemy'. Please, however, consider your steps very carefully. Ask the Lord Jesus for wisdom. And then, best yet, try to help these folks to unravel the mess. To help douse their tongues of fire and to remove this stench-lingo from the forum here once and for all. To help bring forth a cleansing repentance and refreshing. Now such steps of help and assistance would be very honourable actions. And yes, even the two supporters of the blasphemy could, conceivably, acknowledge their error. If pride and politics do not predominate. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 08, 2006)   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 950 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.138.191.48 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:18 pm:        Prax, Are you for real? Or is this some kind of persona you've developed for the internet? You really are quite funny, in a kind of twisted and very annoying fashion.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1447 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.82.95.82 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 1:55 pm:        Prax...and all I have one question: what kind of church, what kind of men of God would tell an old lady, faithful tithe supporter that God oked her to travel and she goes and buys the ticket then the same men come back and decides God changed his mind since the ones she was going with questioned the doctrine of hh? as long as they thought all was honey and pie, Mom could roam the skies with us...then when we asked mom about certian things and she runs to them they suddenly change their mind... and no do not say it was like david wanting to build the temple... As long as they thought they had us wrapped around their fingers all was well but question their doctrine and motives...suddenly God changes his mind. Do they think I would want to follow some leaders that do not even believe in women in the ministry? Do they think our people are so dumb that they did not see through things? If God says something then it is said...If they do not know the voice of God then they better get to their knees. Woe be unto them that decieve and preach for their own desires... And then them have my missionary mom crying thinking she had got out of her place because she answered some questions...then have her calling us in the middle of the night weeping... Whatever faith and admiration I may have had for them after I REALLY FOUND OUT the game they were playing turned to despise...I DESPISE PEOPLE THAT GET SIMPLE PEOPLE TO THINK GOD IS TELLING THEM TO DO SOMETHING. God hates that kind of junk too, my friend. I saw all their finger pointing, mad spells, telling people they were out of place... Much authority has made them mad if you ask me...and the poor people that fall for all that authority stuff...they are NOT Jesus in the flesh and neither will they ever be Jesus in the flesh. I would hate to belong to a church where I WOULD HAVE TO SLIP AROUND AND DO THINGS AND tell the person I am with, don´t tell this to the leaders...I hated when I was told don´t talk around so and so they run to the leaders... don´t tell me that is a church...a body that is part of the body of Christ...I am sorry I do not believe it.... If I have to manipulate people then I am a hirling and not the real thing. Sorry to be so plain. Those that agree with me are now defenders of the sick blasphemy according to Prax...lol Sorry that there are so many people in our world that do not wait around to find things out..I am glad I stayed around now I know of what I speak... Prax... Maybe you should take their baptismal course... No, Prax you are not the man Art seemed to be...at least when he found out he was lied to even though he could not stand to write here he refused to take up for their lies... I know how hurt Art was...even though he disagreed with some of hh practices. He could not see them outright lying...and \prax that is exactly what they did, they out right lied... Why lie about someone that leaves a place? No church keeps everyone that comes but you do not have to destroy people because you differ with them... I asked the question and ask for explainations...was told they rebaptized..and the lady is rebellious...don´t want to line up and on and on... I asked because one of HH´s own in talking sa, I wonder what really happened..so I asked...I recieved their answer and then I asked the family...I was told a lie....well they did try to tell my friend after they confronted hh that they were lying...hh said well it is the same as getting rebaptized...trying to justify their error... HH can only justify errors so long in time even the most dense and brainwashed will catch on... Why not be truthful...why not live what they write in their building character books...are leaders above being truthful? YES, A REAL REPENTING NEEDS TO BE but not from those they cast out but from the leaders of HH...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 687 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 7:00 pm:        Hi Folks, Yes, C_S, what I have written about above is very much for real and about what is a very dark cloud over this forum. The real issues, the real needs, the heart of the matter, what is most pressing. You have been of no assistance, just skirting around saying little, so I will pass on more in regards to your distraction comment. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1448 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.136.48 Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 7:54 pm:        Prax with all the twisted warped advice he gives to others about HH is amazing when he himself will not join or take the covenant...Your advice Prax sounds like this: Be a member of something I do not even believe to be full truth... Prax oh prax you know to be a good member of HH you cannot go to college...read a newspaper, read a magazine...poor prax...just what will you do with all your quest for knowledge?????????? My own missionary mom told me of one of the boys wanti