| Author | Message | ||
     wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 893 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
How do you deal with someone when you give what you feel that God would lead you to give knowing that giving more would cause an unsettled heart (for whatever reason) and that your motives would not be right if you gave above what God placed in your heart . . . yet you are made to feel guilty for your gift? Guess one should not give if it is not going to be received in the right spirit. Gee, and I even gave the limit of what I would normally give without clearing it with my spouse (which is his right to know of this even though the money was under my stewardship). I'm not going to plant seeds where I am judged for my gift anymore. Anyone ever experience this? It spoils the gift that you gave from your heart. I should have known better. (Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger on November 26, 2006) | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 898 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Note to self. Stay away from ministries and ministers that tear you down every time you come close to them. How do I keep finding myself hoodwinked? | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 899 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Unbelievable. And I know men that preach the gospel and receive $250 a week and do not get increases in years and their wives make up for the needs in their family and don't spit on the gifts that they receive! Unbelievable! But one thing is sure . . . God always shows the motives of a person's heart by their reaction to the gifts from His saints! Sorry to rant and rave but I don't appreciate being spit on! | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2345 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Are you basically saying that you have tithes above and beyond what you felt comfortable with and it didn't seem that the minister cared at all? I have a relative that I believes gives so much to his church that his family suffers, the minister sees it, but continues to take anyway. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 493 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.8.213.220 |
Are you saying that you are made to feel guilty no matter what sort of gift you give? | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1311 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.163.213 |
"Guess one should not give if it is not going to be received in the right spirit." I think that depends on the reason for giving. It sounds like you were not satisfied with the results. God certainly doesnt need money, so if you are giving for religious reasons I would say don't give any more than you can afford, and make sure it's going somewhere it's really needed. I think spending an hour at a soup kitchen is a much more worthwhile gift then any currency placed in a preists offering plate. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 901 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Dream truth, my issue is not with the results but basically what I feel was a raspberry  given by the person receiving the gift that was for God and not that person in the first place. Quite honestly, I did not expect a response at all and here again is one reason that I prefer to give anonymously when I can. I couldn't - I did not have cash with me. Maybe it is just some warped perspective on my part. I'm sure that the gift can be used to achieve good results or I wouldn't have felt lead to give. I even thought to myself, Lord can I give more but I had misplaced some credit cards, had to cancel them and shuffle things around and was just about to get things settled and didn't have sufficient cash in my checking account so I gave the amount that Lord laid on my heart. And the next day I felt that a response was directed at me acting like I had failed in my giving. I think the problem is more likely that the person had failed in their receiving. This impression was so bad that I dreamt last night that I gave an offering just to hear the one receiving it make no statement but I could just hear him make a "raspberry" sound. It broke my heart. I cried and cried. Number one, I would have preferred that the individual not even know of what I gave. Number two, I was giving to God and not that individual. Number three, it was a step of faith for me to even give because I had felt hurt by the ministry before but had worked to resolve it. Number four, at a time when I had hope to see reconciliation and edification, I felt completely torn down leaving me in more of a hopeless state than I have recently been in. God had pulled me up. I took a step of faith and got knocked back down again. Quite honestly, it is just about all I can do to hang on to Christianity. I'm certainly not in Job's place but I understand how he felt when everyone around him was tearing him down. What I am seemingly finding in "religious" Christianity is that I can never, ever do anything right. Yaakov2 and Bluewater, not entirely, it was a love offering. I am well aware that I could handle my finances better but I am also aware that I strive to give to the Lord's work. I fail at times but at least when I give it is from the heart and not grudgingly. I have never had anyone judge my giving before in my whole life! Only God should judge that. I had lost income this year due to medical issues (losing extra money that I usually make to pay off debt) and had also had a foggy mind and misplaced some financial resources. I gave what I felt God wanted me to and then I believe I was scolded because this was not enough in the individual's eyes who had no knowledge of my financial situation or of the lost cards, etc. They judged my heart without the facts. But maybe I should just praise God for letting me see this so I will become a better Steward. | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2348 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
In situations like this I think of the phrase, "Walk away from religion and get closer to god." I hope you can find a way to sift through the crap and find your connection to the god you love. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 903 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Thanks bluewater but I want to keep in mind that it is the "God" (not "god") that I love. | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2350 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
"The Devil is in the details." | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 495 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.8.213.220 |
Wayfarer I'd say that you're right, the problem lies with the receiver, not the giver. You don't owe anyone any excuses or explanations. Give what you want to give. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 906 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Bluewater, I'm sorry, I don't understand. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 909 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
From a biblical standpoint I have to disagree Bluewater. The details are what they are. It is wrong for others to judge another's heart because they do not have all the details. Only God has all the details and that is why He is the only one in a place to judge. Oh satan wants to accuse us but it is not his job. And perhaps it was not appropriate for me to post this here. I was hurt and felt I was being judged by another but by posting what I did I inadvertently judged the other person. Praise God we are saved by grace because I would NEVER be good enough! I apologize for posting this thread to begin with. Perhaps it was my own heart trying to judge myself. | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 199 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Wayfarer, I am sorry to see you so anguished. It's too bad that an attempt at pleasing G-d in your own way, resulted in bad/guilty/shameful/judgemental feelings in you. I don't believe it should be that way. | ||
| ba2 Advanced Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 689 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.47 |
yaakov, you said, "Are you saying that you are made to feel guilty no matter what sort of gift you give?" Yes, fortunately not in all churches, but some always do. This is exactly why I jump on the tithing thing whenever it comes up. I truly like your notion of paying dues to belong to a church/synagogue. A minimum amount for the operations of the church with donations for other projects. Paid through the mail but never in the place of worship. I find that the members of the fundamentalist churches are made to be very guilt ridden for not giving enough, no matter how much they give. 10% is not even enough in my church. 10% is to go specifically to the local church, and more to other church projects, like expanding the building or supporting a missionary (often a personal friend of the minister). I say, anytime someone tries to convince you that you MUST give your own hard earned money is nothing more than a con artist. Of course, yesterday I was told that the money I earned was not mine, but God’s. Well, I guess I’ll hold it for God, he can take it right out of my wallet or bank account any time he wants. | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1313 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.168.31 |
wayfaring, it seems to me that the recipient of your gift is not trustworthy. If they question your amount of gift, I would highly doubt their integrity or position as to how they will honestly use what you are giving for good. They are behaving like a greedy person. Are you sure they will use the money as you intend? I think you are much better off giving directly to those you feel would benefit instead of to an intermediary. Say, for example, going and giving a cancer patient in the hospital $20. Then no one has dipped into your contribution before it gets to where it should really go. Does this make sense to you? I am thinking right now of the parable about the man who prepared a feast because his master was going to come visit him. I think both Jesus and Buddha had similar stories they told to their followers. (Message edited by dream_truth on November 27, 2006) | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 498 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
A priest, a minister, and a rabbi were discussing how they divided up their collections. The priest said “I draw a line on the floor and throw all the collections in the air. Whichever lands on the left side is G-d’s, whichever lands on the right side is mine.” The minister said “I draw a circle on the floor and throw all the collections in the air. Whichever lands inside the circle is G-d’s, whichever lands outside the circle is mine.” The rabbi said “I throw all the collections in the air. Whichever G-d grabs is His, whichever hits the floor is mine.” | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2371 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
I like that. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 912 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Dream Truth, I think the one that has the trust issue is myself. You know everyone in your dream is part of yourself for the most part (I think God does use symbols to represent other people like with Joseph and his dream about his brothers). It was I that was giving a raspberry to myself in my dream because I didn't step out in faith. I was projecting and took something I heard and probably turned it around to mean something different because I wasn't comfortable with what I gave (even though I thought I was to begin with). I think the Lord just looks down on me and thinks is she ever going to quit turning things around backwards! I'm not really used to walking in faith. I mean you can hear people talk about it but I have to admit that I prefer to walk on solid ground and not try to let the Holy Spirit guide me on the water. God must really love me because He sure likes to wrestle with me a lot.  | ||
| kimberlyfredrick Intermediate Member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 316 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.228.174.223 |
I like the Living Church of God. They have a unmarked basket for tithes/offerings on a table in the back of the room were there is coffee and donuts, etc. The plate is not passed around. They view tithing as well as prayer very personal....between you and God. Dream is right. Give to those in need. Pay a light bill, leave groceries at the door, clothing for the kids,, etc. But do it in private. Store up your treasures in Heaven. Giving in a prideful way is a waste of spirit and is offensive to God. I wont tithe with a check nor right it off on my taxes. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 922 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I totally agree that one should not give in a prideful way. However, I disagree that one should just pay bills for people, etc. What a person needs more than the physical is the spiritual so I believe that we should give to pay to present the Gospel to the world as well as to take care of the physical needs of others. I also agree that it is very personal between you and God. What I was struggling with (it appears to me) was a struggle that God was wanting me to step out in faith and I missed the message. Otherwise, I would have easily moved on. Since my tax return is fairly private and hopefully is between me, God and the IRS (who doesn't really care what I give and is probably being handled by a computer) then I will use this vehicle to be a good Steward and save additional funds. Wasting money on taxes that I don't need to waste doesn't seem to be good stewardship to me. Ultimately, it's not my money anyway but Gods. But you have to do what is on your heart. My heart was just convicting me on this and I misinterpreted it. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted my conviction but when I posted it originally - I didn't recognize it as me being convicted personally. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 924 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I also think that you have to work in the framework you are in. Since the Church is the body of Christ, you should be able to give to it in a manner in which the left hand doesn't really "look" at what the right hand is doing. I don't think this means that you shouldn't right a check. I think this has more to do with the motives of the hearts of those involved. I also don't have a problem with giving cash but ultimately if you pay by check it is easier to be a good steward with God's money and take advantage of the vehicles that are provided to you to be this steward. One thing that I just noticed is that the verse on not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing relates to giving alms and not tithes and offerings. (Although - I don't know that I want to broadcast what I do regarding this either.) I do agree with this. I think it is ok to use past examples as teaching tools and not go into details about amounts given . . . i.e. what to do when approached by a beggar, etc. Still, you have to be careful when you do this. But I don't think you should stand out on the street corner and give to a beggar and yell out "look at me, look at me!" I certainly wouldn't suggest notating these types of alms on a tax return and I also don't see giving a check in this type of situation. And if you are giving for physical purposes - many organizations give you the ability to donate anonymously. Just looking at this at all angles here. | ||
| osakadan Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 96 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.8.29 |
What a person needs more than the physical is the spiritual Tell that to someone who doesn't have heat in their apartment or food in their stomach | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2194 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
very true osakadan, very true..... | ||
| yaakov2 Advanced Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 502 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.8.213.220 |
wayfaring_stranger I totally agree that one should not give in a prideful way. What does this mean? You can't feel pride for doing a mitzvah?? I also agree that it is very personal between you and God. What I was struggling with (it appears to me) was a struggle that God was wanting me to step out in faith and I missed the message. Otherwise, I would have easily moved on. What does this mean? Since my tax return is fairly private and hopefully is between me, God and the IRS (who doesn't really care what I give and is probably being handled by a computer) then I will use this vehicle to be a good Steward and save additional funds. Wasting money on taxes that I don't need to waste doesn't seem to be good stewardship to me. The IRS only cares if your total percentage of claimed charity exceeds some secret percentage of your adjusted gross income. Just put "various churches" and insert all your amounts given to any person (non-relative) in there. But you have to do what is on your heart. My heart was just convicting me on this and I misinterpreted it. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted my conviction but when I posted it originally - I didn't recognize it as me being convicted personally. You felt guilty for donating to charity?? Why? | ||
| yaakov2 Advanced Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 503 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.8.213.220 |
ba2 I find that the members of the fundamentalist churches are made to be very guilt ridden for not giving enough, no matter how much they give. 10% is not even enough in my church. Yow, 10%!! That's outrageous! Of course, yesterday I was told that the money I earned was not mine, but God’s. Well, I guess I’ll hold it for God, he can take it right out of my wallet or bank account any time he wants. I'd tell the minister, it's not his, it's G-d's. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 927 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Doesn't matter . . . in the end - L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux. As Christians, I believe we should allow God to work through us to take care of the physical needs of others. But the physical is only for a short while . . . the spiritual is for eternity. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 928 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Yakoov, On the pride thing, what I mean is that you realize upfront that it is not yours to begin with but God's. You give because of what is given to you and your love for Christ and your faith that he will take care of your needs. I'm sorry but I'm not Jewish and don't really know what mitzvah means. Is it like giving alms? When I say pride what I mean is that you don't give in a manner to say - look at what I'm doing. I know (because I worked for a nonprofit once) that people give because they support a cause but they also often get recognition for their gift in a program, etc. But, sometimes you will see someone listed as anonymous. Now I can't tell anyone what they need to do or should do but to me the New Testament verse (and I realize you are Jewish) about giving alms has brought it to mind in my life that one might ask to be listed as anonymous for things like this. You don't get recognized but is that what you are really after. In the New Testament we are taught to deposit in heaven's bank account. Why? Not for what we will ultimately receive but so we will have crowns to throw at Jesus' feet. Jesus has promised to provide for our needs but so many time we lack faith regarding this. I also agree that it is very personal between you and God. What I was struggling with (it appears to me) was a struggle that God was wanting me to step out in faith and I missed the message. Otherwise, I would have easily moved on. Regarding this statement - I'm not so sure that I didn't receive too separate messages from God. Maybe I didn't miss the first message and maybe God sent another message to test my faith. I don't know. All I know is that I was with a friend, things happened quickly, I made a quick decision based on what popped in my head and felt comfortable at the time about that. As far as wrestling with God. I guess you would see this as wrestling with your conscience. I thought I was through with the issue and then something happens or I hear a verse and then the wrestling starts and then I project it because it is easier to blame others than to wrestle with God. And so it usually goes that I throw a big temper tantrum and then God gives me a body slam (in a loving way) but I've began to see them coming so I am getting quicker at yelling uncle. LOL! (It's a spiritual thing - If you have experienced it you would understand.) (Like Jacob wrestling with God.) No I don't feel guilty to donate to charity at all. That's not what I was saying. I started this thread projecting my own feelings about what I had given and threw one of my famous temper tantrums because He was telling me to give more. (Ok, God . . . this living epistle thing gets old after a while. I say this with all due respect.) | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1316 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.168.31 |
wayfaring stranger, it really sounds to me like you are complicating things in your head. You do not need an intermediary. If you feel the need to pass on spirituality to people, you can do this yourself, without money. If you want to help people in a financial way, you are much better off doing so directly, instead of paying someone else to do it. It's really not that complicated, in my humble opinion. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 933 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Dream truth - I am talking about giving money for ministry. Christians believe that those who teach and preach the gospel should have funds to do this. I do not "need" an intermediary but this is God's work and it is "one" body. The hand has to help the mouth etc. But ultimately - if we were talking about me just wanting to help someone specifically - yes, as part of the body of Christ I could do that directly. It's a Christian thing - and you would have to understand the interconnection between the members of Christ's body. But I do appreciate your comments. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 934 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
It's not complicated at all - God convicts and if I believe Him, I follow Him. | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1317 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.168.31 |
"It's a Christian thing - and you would have to understand the interconnection between the members of Christ's body." Unfortunately, I do understand all too well. I have seen too many loved ones mortgage thier houses and spend their childrens college funds for just this purpose. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 936 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Dream truth - you nor I can judge their actions. Our treasures should not be stored on earth but in heaven. Either I believe it or I don't. | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 202 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
This thread is not a new topic. I follow the NTCC thread for that is the cult that brought me here, and there are conversations in abundance about tithing. NTCC does not share it's financial situation with its congregants. It passes a plate every service, and there are at least 5 per week, and they expect a 'silent tithe' (no coins) and they don't want to see any of George's face either. They make their congregants feel that the money was never theirs in the first place. I don't get that concept at all. I feel to say G-d needs money is insulting to G-d. Does G-d need to go to WalMart for new undies, hence needing the cash? Yaakov posted a joke that rang very true (I'm not sure where it is, Yaakov, can you help?) and it may seem the rabbi is so stingy in that he takes all the money, but it just goes to show that G-d doesn't need any money. I could go on and on about the money/tithing/IRS thing, but it makes my stomach churn. And I like peace. Shalom. | ||
| yaakov2 Advanced Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 505 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
wayfaring_stranger On the pride thing, what I mean is that you realize upfront that it is not yours to begin with but God's. You give because of what is given to you and your love for Christ and your faith that he will take care of your needs. I am aware that all our achievements are G-d’s achievements. We are expected to give a portion. G-d gives to us and we follow His example and give to others. However, while it is a good thing to give, it is a bad thing to give too much. In Judaism, if one gives so much that their own family suffers, then G-d looks unfavorably upon that. I'm sorry but I'm not Jewish and don't really know what mitzvah means. Whoops! In this context, it loosely translates to “good deeds”. When I say pride what I mean is that you don't give in a manner to say - look at what I'm doing. I know (because I worked for a nonprofit once) that people give because they support a cause but they also often get recognition for their gift in a program, etc. Does your church allow you to give anonymously? In Temple, it is standard practice for congregants to sponsor pieces of the synagogue. So, the chapel becomes the “Feingold Chapel”, the sanctuary doors become the “Silverstein Doors”, etc. In the 12th Century, the great Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides once said that there were seven levels of charity. The highest level of charity is where the donor doesn’t know who the donation goes to and the receiver doesn’t know who gave it. As far as wrestling with God. I guess you would see this as wrestling with your conscience. I thought I was through with the issue and then something happens or I hear a verse and then the wrestling starts and then I project it because it is easier to blame others than to wrestle with God. And so it usually goes that I throw a big temper tantrum and then God gives me a body slam (in a loving way) but I've began to see them coming so I am getting quicker at yelling uncle. LOL! Well, second guessing and recriminations only go so far. If you’ve identified a mistake, then atone for it, come up with a way to avoid that error again, and move on. It's a spiritual thing - If you have experienced it you would understand.(Like Jacob wrestling with God.) For sure, I know all about it. It is said that Judaism can be defined as “Wrestling with G-d”. | ||
| ba2 Advanced Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 703 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.47 |
chesed, you are looking for yaakov’s post #498 above. The forced tithing thing makes my stomach turn too. I don’t believe there is any requirement to tithe to any church and the tithing requirement was probably never required by God, it was the lie of the scribes, and notice it says lying pen, not lying mouth! So I believe the bible has been corrupted from the time it was first written down. In Old Testament times and Christ's time, the Scribes were considered to be liars and corrupters of religion (Jeremiah 8:8)(Mat 5:20, 23:13) & other places Jeremiah said (speaking for God) "How can you say, 'We are wise, we have the law of the Lord'? Why, that has been changed into falsehood by the lying pen of the Scribes!" (Jeremiah 8:8) In Mat (speaking of Scribes) “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Mat 5:20). They "bound up heavy loads for others to carry, not lifting a finger to budge them" (Mat 23:4). They "shut the doors of God's kingdom in men's faces, not entering themselves and inhibiting those who tried to enter" (Mat 23:13). In other words, they lied to make life nice for themselves. Flim-flam artists of the past. No different then than now. I like yaakov’s comment in another thread about paying dues to the synagogue and limited or no money changing in the place of worship. Do you know if this is common in all synagogues or is that just his sect that does it that way? | ||
| yaakov2 Advanced Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 506 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
chesed NTCC does not share it's financial situation with its congregants. It passes a plate every service, and there are at least 5 per week, and they expect a 'silent tithe' (no coins) and they don't want to see any of George's face either. I don’t know NTCC. Five services a week sounds like a lot. Are they long services? How are they to know who gave what, if anything? They make their congregants feel that the money was never theirs in the first place. It is a lousy attitude. G-d endows us with gifts and situations, but it is up to us to make the choices and take the actions to implement them. Giving should be a joy, not a burden. Yaakov posted a joke that rang very true (I'm not sure where it is, Yaakov, can you help?) and it may seem the rabbi is so stingy in that he takes all the money, but it just goes to show that G-d doesn't need any money. My post #498. It’s an old joke that could be interpreted several ways. I’ve never heard any Rabbi state that “this is G-d’s money.” It is fairly blasphemous to suggest that G-d needs money to do His work. While G-d created the world in the first place, He purposefully left creation unfinished to give us a chance to share in creation. Charitable actions are one way that we can share in making this world a better place. I could go on and on about the money/tithing/IRS thing, but it makes my stomach churn. And I like peace. Most people churn at the thought of the IRS. Personally, I think of them as a bunch of incompetents. I deal with them regularly. In my experience, they are wrong 9 out of 10 times. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 947 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I wonder if the widow that gave all that she had planned her giving. I think before ministers go out and start spouting this and that they need to find the "BALANCE" of what the Bible says elsewhere. I will say this - I'm hanging on to Christ as tightly as I can although the results of those that like to "Minister" to me just continually push me to death. The bottom line regarding giving is who am I going to listen to - the conviction of God or the manipulations of a minister. | ||
| osakadan Intermediate Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 119 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.190.5.41 |
Hang on to that thought. No one other then your own conscience should be implying you haven't given enough. Even then, you need to make sure you have taken care of your financial responsibilities before stepping out in faith. You ned to pay, the rent, feed the kids, whatever, then decide to give.If you want to forgo that coffee shop, or whatever luxury, fine....but other obligations must come first, and you should be careful not to let anything guilt guide you into giving more than that is disposable income. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2204 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
Kind of changing the subject just a bit. I was listening to the news last night and in studies shown "religious" people give 4 times as much to charitable organizations then our secular-progressive friends do. Americans also give 7 times more than Germans and 11 times more than Italians-of course that being said - Western Europe is very secular-progressive. Jesus taught to give to the poor and Muslims and Jews give alms... | ||
| yaakov2 Advanced Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 508 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
Jewish charity is called Tzedakah. I’ve spoken about it before, but here is a refresher http://www.jewfaq.org/tzedakah.htm Muslim charity is called Zakat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat
The middle part sounds weird to me. It seems to imply that preferential treatment is given to the rich, that they are getting additional divine rewards. However, the source is Wikipedia, so maybe it isn’t accurate. | ||
| ba2 Advanced Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 709 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.47 |
rachel, Of all the recipients of charity/donations, religion took the lion's share with 47 percent; education, 13.5 percent; health, 8.8 percent; human services, 7.9 percent; gifts to foundations, 7 percent; arts, culture, and humanities, 6.7 percent; and the rest was distributed between international affairs, environment, wildlife and social/community categories. I am not sure if religious people actually give more but with the tithing requirement in the churches, it makes perfect sense that they might. The big benefactors of charities are the church leaders. The fact is, the poor give a higher percentage of their income than the wealthy, regardless of religious persuasion. Maybe they realize the need. I don’t consider handouts in church charity all. True charity is given to those in need, like food and shelter for the homeless. Also, the Western Europeans have higher tax rates which funnels help for the needy, so they already give, but in a different form. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2205 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
Well O'Reily said it so it- must be true(lol)!!!! Anyway, that is what secular progressives would like to see in our country, similar to that of Western Europe, where government is responsible for charitable donations... | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1318 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.168.31 |
Yaakov said, "In Judaism, if one gives so much that their own family suffers, then G-d looks unfavorably upon that." Thanks, that is basically the point I was trying to make. You have a good way of saying things. I think if I had to pick a religion I would probobly be Jewish. Jews seem to rely a lot more on common sense than on the whimsical fantasies of an unknown ruler. | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 948 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I can't say that I believe in tithing. It was more like a national tax. But I do believe in giving when I feel lead to do so. I do think there is something to sowing and reaping monetarily and otherwise. Do some men and women take advantage of this trying to get funds. I suspect that they do; however, I still think that the one who gives will receive the benefit of giving particularly if it doesn't make sense to do so and they step out in faith. Could it have made sense to the widow to give all that she had? No. But apparently she felt lead to do so. What about the guy who has played Santa Claus for years? He had lost his job when he started going around and giving money, etc. away. Did that make sense for him. No? But he has been very blessed for doing so. | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1321 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.168.31 |
If we have children or people in our lives who we are directly responsible for, then it is our DUTY to take care of them first. If the widow or santa guy had no children, or family, then that is great. But if they were neglecting personal responsibility because it felt 'good' to give, that is not so great. I agree that there is a certain satisfaction, or 'spiritual high' which is felt when one spontaneously does an act of kindness, but if this is done without regard for others who could be hurt (children, family, etc) then it is actually a selfish act, done for the purpose of the good feeling. I think it would be wrong for me to give money to any charity if my own childrens needs have not been met first. (Message edited by dream_truth on November 30, 2006) | ||
| wayfaring_stranger Advanced Member Username: wayfaring_stranger Post Number: 953 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I agree but do you know what "taking care" of children includes now a days? My son thinks he could not live without cable. I suggested cutting it off for a while. He watches it too much, needs to read, and I could use the money to help get out of debt. I agree with much of what you say. The widow obviously didn't have children. My son, at a fairly young age has been to Finland, Russia, all over the US, Disneyland, Disneyworld, Six Flags, and on and on and on. And he is getting an XBox 360 for Christmas. My giving, even if we had to suffer without having some wants, is not going to kill him. In fact, if I do decide to cut the cable off it will be more to teach him than out of real need. My problem is that I have always been able to earn extra money so if I got in debt then I would just teach classes and begin working myself out of debt. Well as you know - I basically crashed this year and as a result quit teaching. Maybe I need to ask for a class again to help with money BUT I don't want to teach just for the money. I was also getting upset because I had taught for so long and felt I was being robbed of my time away from my family, etc. But I was the one robbing myself. I think I'll survive. Still, Jesus told the rich young ruler to give up everything and follow him so you never know what he may asks you to give up. | ||
| grace2u Junior Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
OK - well perhaps it is more of the purchasing of a product or service that one needs to be leary off because you may not even receive it. It looks like I may have fell for such a trap. I am very disappointed. I've even tried contacting the organization and working it out. The problem is they have me caught. As a Christian I cannot really complain but just have to go my separate way and learn from the lesson. Guess I will learn to discern better. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 172 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
i beleive in tithing because the bible first of all teaching the giveing of tithes. i also give my thithes because i love THE LORD nad i enjoy giving to GOD for HIS work to be carried on | ||
| grace2u Junior Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Arron - this is a difference in giving (I believe in that too) and selling. Maybe this is why Jesus kicked those that were selling out of the temple. I don't know. I believed that one should though preach freely but could offer products or services. However, if they don't provide what they offer it hurts their testimony, etc. And it separates believers, if in fact, all are really believers. I can't look into anyone's heart so I don't know but I know I have been hurt. | ||
| grace2u Junior Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I should clarify that I do believe that God's people should provide for the Gospel that is freely preached. But I don't think people should be manipulated into giving when they are not led to do so or do not have the money to do so. | ||
| grace2u Junior Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
And if you are just $ to a ministry then they are really not ministering to you. | ||
| grace2u Junior Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
OK . . . no one else has ever been there. This isn't about the money. The money is nothing. It is about now feeling separated from a ministry that I really believed (and trying hard to continue to believe) was part of the body of Christ. That's what hurts - not the money. I know I can't out give God. | ||
| ba2 Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.206 |
It seems to me that your church will have expenses so, members should support their church. The question really amounts to “how much? and for what purpose?” They are tax exempt so that is not an issue. But there will be some bills. An annual report should give a detailed overview of all expenditures. Our church was looking to possibly build and I couldn’t make sense of their financials. I am not a voting member but I still supported their need to expand. But still, I couldn’t make sense so I could get a little cynical about it. It is to their benefit to preach the bible “literally” otherwise, it would be harder to fleece the flock! I generally get very irritated when they preach “tithing”. I don’t believe that tithing is scriptural and I don’t believe it ever was a requirement. Important to give, sure, but not at the expense of your family needs. And giving should primarily be for those that really need it, ie: food pantry, homeless shelter, hospice care, etc. Give everyone a gilt trip for not giving enough - what a crock! | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 173 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
i dont believe in "selling blessings" sometimes one may have a book to sell but it should not be demmanded as a blessing. i know they have to have money to operate but selling blessings no way | ||
| still_small_voice Intermediate Member Username: still_small_voice Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
Yeah, I was flipping through the channels the other day and there was a program on where prayer requests were laid out on a table which had been sent in with "donations" in order to "receive a blessing". One dude was laying hands on the letters and praying and the other exhorting people to send in their donations to "receive a blessing". You know, I think I will simply pray myself and keep my money. This kind of conduct, which boils down to selling faith and hope, and I would say false hope at that, personally disgusts me. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 177 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
i have been healed many times through the prayers of my church people and of others of course. they didnt ask for money neither did i give money to get it done. i believe that GOD loves me enough to grant what i need. | ||
| ba2 Junior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.206 |
aaron, I have said this to you before but, there is absolutly no scientific evidence that intercessory prayer is benificial to the person being prayed for. None. You should read the studies done on prayer. Especially the STEP studies involving hospitals and initially supported by various churches, including Baptist. When the results did not agree with their views, support ended. In fact, they supported the methodology before the results, and afterwards, criticized the entire study. Findings: intercessory prayer or the knowledge of receiving it does not influence recovery, except maybe negatively. If those being prayed for did not know they were being prayed for, there was absolutely no affect on the outcome. If I am in need of emergency care, I simply want the best trained doctors to work on me. Pray, sure, but not at the expense of their focus on my condition. | ||
| turtle Member Username: turtle Post Number: 63 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.224.13 |
What worse then people giving money by force is a minister paying people to go to church. I have seen that done. | ||
| called Junior Member Username: called Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.241.219 |
STUDY REFERENCES & QUOTES (Subject: Tithing) http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing/ | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 128 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.24.241.242 |
"What worse then people giving money by force is a minister paying people to go to church." Whoa!!! Where do I sign up? With the extra money coming in, I could give up my Longaberger Basket gig and finally put a down payment on that jewel encrusted TBN shofar I've been wanting... | ||
| ba2 Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.206 |
called, this is the one area we agree on, tithing is not necessary. I go a bit further, I don't think it ever was a requirement from God. But there are many flim flam artists out there that could be very convincing. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 63 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
It's my personal opinion that God established tithing under the old covenant in order to get people to take care of the poor. Who does scripture say the tithe was to benefit? The Levite priests (who did not own land of their own) and the widow, the orphan, the stranger ... God's concern for the poor is shown throughout scripture, OT and NT. Under the new covenant we don't have the tithe, but we still have instruction to help those in need. | ||
| called Junior Member Username: called Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 124.106.47.73 |
Under the new covenant we don't have the tithe, but we still have instruction to help those in need. I agree with that 100%. But people need to understand that tithing was not taught nor practiced by the apostles themselfs in the first century church and should not be taught or practiced in the NT Church today!!! | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 323 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Abraham didn't have to tithe to Melchezidek but he did. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I'm not sure what your point is ... but don't make this story something it isn't. Abraham went to battle against invaders who plundered Sodom and Gomorrah and captured all the wealth and food, including Abram's nephew and everything he owned. Abraham pursued and defeated these invaders with God's help. He recovered the goods stolen from Sodom and Gomorrah and subsequently gave a tenth of what was recovered to Melchizedek and the rest back to the King of Sodom. The story is not about "tithing" ... it is about the priesthood of Jesus, a fact that is restated in Hebrews 7. Heb 7:1-3 This Melchizedek was king of the city of Salem and also a priest of God Most High. When Abraham was returning home after winning a great battle against many kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him. Then Abraham took a tenth of all he had won in the battle and gave it to Melchizedek. His name means "king of justice." He is also "king of peace" because Salem means "peace." There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God. This in no way resembles modern day "tithing" which is nothing more than a tax which has been placed upon God's people by corrupt church leaders. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 328 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I think it is interesting to see you debate something that I never said. But that's FACTNET - only a place for debating . . . | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 329 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Oh but indeed a tithe is a tenth so there is something about a tithe in the story but don't assume that I think that is all we are to give to God. But I'll not deny that a tithe is in the story. Oh and I know the story just as well but was trying to make a simple point not start one of the numerous debates like everyone else here - ya know - I'm right and your wrong. Guess I would know better. But if we are going to have a "contest" about it, I recently wrote this: I'll post it but then state - I'm sick of everyone trying to out prove everyone. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 331 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
The person of Melchizedek in the Old Testament is the one and only High Priest in the Old Testament that points to Jesus Christ, our High Priest. Not only was Melchizedek a High Priest; He was also a King. Christian (2006, p. 83) quotes Bruce Metzger as saying: The author of Hebrews discusses Jesus Christ and Melchizedek in chapter 7, and makes an argument for Jesus Christ being superior to Melchizedek. ‘The gist of the discussion is that [t]he characteristics of Jesus Christ as absolute high priest were prefigured in Melchizedek, an ancient priest-king of Salem. This typology can be expanded further in the relationship between the “eating and drinking identified with the body and the blood of Christ [as it] is portrayed in eating the bread and drinking the wine of communion. This can be found in Genesis 14: 14-20: And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen and pursued them unto Dan. And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah which is on the left hand of Damascus. And he brought back all the goods and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. And the kind of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Cherdorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king’s dale. And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God possessor of heaven and earth: and blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. As mentioned earlier, not only is Melchizedek a High Priest but he is a King. “The King of Salem means King of Peace. Peace is shalom in Hebrew. Salem is based on shalom. It means to be whole, or set right – at peace (Strong, 1986, 7965). That means nothing missing and nothing broken. This includes the meaning of wholeness . . . . Melchizedek means a king of the right, of the natural or moral and prosperity (Strong, 1986, 4442). Being king of righteousness and peace, he is a portrait of Messiah, the Lord Jesus. (Christian, 2006, pp. 84 – 85) Melchizedek’s appearance in the Old Testament is full of meaning as the lack of a genealogy is typical of a supernatural appearance – as if there is no beginning or an end. Christian (2206) again quotes Metzger: “Like Melchizedek, Christ does not have a successor ([Hebrews]7: 11-25). He did not have to offer a sacrifice for Himself (unlike Aaron) (7:26-28)”. Mickelsen (1963) states the following regarding the typology found in the story of Melchizedek: In the Old Testament, Melchizedek is mentioned in only two passages: Genesis 14:17-20 and Psalm 110:4. In the Genesis record the following facts are listed about Melchizedek: (1) He was king of Salem (earlier name of Jerusalem); (2) He brought forth bread and wine; (3) He was a priest of God Most High; (4) He blessed Abraham on behalf of the Most High God; (5) He ascribed blessing to God for the victory which he granted to Abraham; (6) Abraham gave to him the tenth part of the spoil. In Psalm 110 the one addressed as Lord (vs1) is designated a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek (vs. 4). This is a declaration of Jehovah himself, re-enforced by an oath to make clear that he in no way intends to alter this assertion. (p. 249) (Message edited by Grace2u on July 29, 2007) | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 332 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Mickelsen (1963) continues by stating that the writer of Hebrews “emphasizes in the Genesis narrative (1) the name and title of this ancient figure; (2) his being a priest of God Most High; (3) his blessing of Abraham; (4) and Abraham’s giving of the tenth to Melchizedek.” Mickelsen further states: That Melchizedek is a type of Christ is seen in the writer of Hebrews draws one basic conclusion from the silence of the Old Testament narrative. With no mention of birth, death, parents or genealogy, Melchizedek simply lives as far as the narrative of the Old Testament is concerned. “Having been made similar or like to the son of God, he [Melchizedek] abides a priest forever [in the O.T. account]” (Heb. 7:3. The “being made similar to the Son of God” indicates that Melchizedek is a type . . . . Quantitatively, however, the writer of Hebrews places far more stress on Christ’s being similar to Melchizedek. . . . Therefore, the typical character of Melchizedek is controlled by a twofold selection: (1) The picture of his life as given in the Old Testament; (2) The underlining of certain details which bring the correspondence into clear focus. (p. 250) Melchizedek is just one person used as a type; there are many additional examples. Solomon is an example of a type fit against the antitype of Christ. Likewise David is used as a type fit against the antitype of Christ. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 333 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Marta, The point is that Abraham's heart was right in what he did. It was an act of worship. I wonder if this had more to do with the symbolism of the number than anything else? TEN signifies COMPLETENESS OF ORDER, marking the entire round of anything. It implies that nothing is wanting; that the number and order are perfect; that the whole cycle is complete. Some examples: The Ten Commandments and the tithe. The above posts I lifted from a paper that I have been writing. But I could not summarize it any better than this: First of all, tithing was a custom commonly practiced in the ANE. Secondly, the number ten is often symbolic of completeness. Hence, the tithe ("one-tenth") attests that all belongs to God, the Creator and "possessor of heaven and earth" (Gen. 14:22). Abram's tithe reflects his recognition of the Kingship of God. Thirdly, under the Mosaic covenant, the tithe becomes legislated as part of the Law in relation to the priesthood, and hence, the Israelites were obligated to tithe. However, it was never meant to be a just a duty, but a delight (Deut. 14:26), and an expression of reverence: "that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always" (Deut. 14:23). I need not belabour this, as I've already dealt with Gen. 14:18-20 elsewhere (1). | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 334 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
The last paragraph from: http://www.bereanbunch.org/tithing-ps.html | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I'll post it but then state - I'm sick of everyone trying to out prove everyone. If you hate it so much, why do it? And why all the cut and paste? What does it prove? Despite all your research ... There is really no significance to Abraham's decision to give 10%. You can replace the amount given with any amount and the point of the story remains the same. There is nothing in scripture that supports the belief that ... 1. Melchizedek ever demanded a specific amount. 2. God ever required a specific amount. 3. Abraham was ever commanded to give a specific amount. It was his choice to give what he gave. Therefore, any attempt to put more value on the amount given than on the act of worship is missing the point of the story. The story is not about "tithing" ... it's about Jesus being our High Priest and how Abraham recognized that and worshiped Him accordingly. Again, I'm not trying to debate you ... just giving my opinion which is based solely on what is clearly written in scripture. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 336 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
If you hate it so much, why do it? And why all the cut and paste? What does it prove? Because you had already started the process and I had written relevant information on it recently and by your post it sounded like you assumed I knew nothing about the subject. (Although I do hate all these peeing contest - I hate it in myself as much as others . . . I'm tired of it.) But I am very familiar with the story myself - that's why the cut and paste. God ever required a specific amount. God required a complete and perfect sacrifice. And it was given with the blood of Lamb. Christ is both the Lamb and the High Priest. And in a way Christ is the tenth. It is in Him we become complete. I think you meant God never required a specific amount. I am not referring to requiring giving monetary funds although I'll agree that we should want to give God all because of Christ's sacrifice. I am referring to giving our lives to God and accepting Him as our Savior and Lord. We can only become complete through His shed blood. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 337 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I think you are totally missing that I am suggesting that a tenth or a tithe is a "type" for the "anti-type" of completeness in Christ in the New Testament. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 338 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I would add that when we give our hearts to Jesus and make Him our High Priest, we give our "complete" self. Not just a 10%. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Do you know what I dislike? Spiritual mumbo jumbo that puts people under bondage. There is no magic in the number 10 ... no special blessing in giving 10%. One tenth is just one tenth .. not some magical representation of the whole. By the way, if you really hate doing something ... it's in your power to stop. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 339 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
What bondage. Giving your heart to Christ is bondage? Yes a 10th is a literal tenth but I'm not so certain God doesn't use 10 to signify completeness. The silly thing is that you are arguing against me when I am not saying a person has to give a 10th. I just made the point that Abraham gave a 10th without being required to do so. You are the one that got upset over what was a FACT. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 340 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
If you would prefer I'll state the FACT this way: Abraham didn't have to give a tenth to Melchezidek but he did.  | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 341 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/practical/tithing.htm For the most part I agree with the above. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
LOL ... I'm not upset. But I think you might be. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 342 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Yea I am. Thank you for realizing that. I'm tired of what seems to be the constant fighting on Factnet by those who are Christians. I took your post as jumping down my throat and not considering that we may not be that too far apart. I also thing you should be very careful with numbers in the Bible but I do believe in types and figures. The sad thing is - is that we are probably closer in belief than we are apart but there are always these peeing and farting contests and hey I can fart and pee with the best of them!  I apologize if I took it wrong. All I was trying to say is that the bondage is in the reverse. We are to give freely and we should want to give more. We have bondage because we are afraid that this ministry or that ministry is going to take advantage of us. Do you know what I think? I think if you give from the heart - regardless if you have given to a ministry that is not right with God that you will still be blessed. But ultimately giving is about worshipping God and not so much about us being blessed. Another reason I am upset. I went to a SC thread and posted something that was just simple like this again. But no one took a mind to it - they just preferred to argue. So I when I saw your post I thought - hey I can pee with the best of them. Again, I apologize for anything I have done wrong. LOL! I seem to apologize a lot in my life. The funny thing is all I want in life is very, very simple. Some unity and fellowship with Christians. Not to be noticed yet doing something that stands for the cause of Christ long after I'm gone. And love. That's it. And I have to ask myself - why would I look for this on Factnet? | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 343 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Guess I've just outgrown FACTNET. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 224 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.206.202 |
i pay my tithes to the church it is a joy to pay my tithes for i am glad i have it to pay HIM and i give to HIM as i feel led and i am always blessed abundantly for paying my tithes and for my giveing and i praise HIM FOR IT ALL AND FOR ALL HE HAS DONE FOR me | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Go ahead and pay your "tithe". You are free to do so. But you are choosing to do something that God never asked of you. Just don't forget to do the things God HAS asked of you. Such as, helping the needy. If you give ten percent to your church and use that as an excuse not to help the people around you ... you are just like the Pharisees who were rebuked by Jesus for substituting their man-made traditions for God's specific laws. Mark 7:5-13 So the Pharisees and teachers of religious law asked him, "Why don't your disciples follow our age-old customs? For they eat without first performing the hand-washing ceremony." Jesus replied, "You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings.' For you ignore God's specific laws and substitute your own traditions." Then he said, "You reject God's laws in order to hold on to your own traditions. For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.' But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, 'Sorry, I can't help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I could have given to you.' You let them disregard their needy parents. As such, you break the law of God in order to protect your own tradition. And this is only one example. There are many, many others." | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
grace2u, I apologize if I got you upset. It wasn't my intention. I was just stating my opinion. You might want to consider why anyone's opinion would upset you ... maybe you place too high a value on it. In the end the only opinion that really matters is God's. Take what God's says to heart and don't let anyone else's opinions get to you. Peace. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 344 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
That's ok Marta. I hate what occurs here on Factnet because even though it is fighting cults it often hurts the body of Christ. I totally understand where you are coming from. I am not telling you what to give. That's between you and God. I am just stating what God is showing me. Like today I noticed that Hebrews 7:1:10th ties Melchizedek's tenth and progresses to the tithe given to the Levites. Again, I am just talking about a "type" which is not a perfect representation of the "antitype". I just think that may the tithe is a specific "type" to the the "antitype" spoken of here: For the law made nothing perfect [keep in mind that the prior verses speak of the tithe of the Levitical law as well as Abraham's tenth to Melchizedek], but the bringing in of a better hope did; [speaking of the "antitype"] by which we draw nigh unto God. Peace to you too. | ||
| termin8d Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 130.123.128.114 |
Just wanted to say that it is encouraging to see that it is possible for two individuals to conclude a discussion in a respectful way despite the differences of opinion. Kudos to both of you. | ||
| called Member Username: called Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.241.219 |
Arron “””””I pay my tithes to the church it is a joy to pay my tithes for i am glad i have it to pay HIM and i give to HIM as i feel led”””””. First of all God is not leading you into keeping one of the 613 laws of Moses, if you are practicing tithing you are practicing something that was never ever practiced in the first century apostolic church by the apostles themselves, their fore you are openly practicing something that is 100% unscriptural and unbiblical in the NT! And your so called church leaders are condemned into hell for teaching or practicing something that did not come from the apostles themselves point blank Gal 1:8-9, there is no possible way of getting around this biblical fact!!! | ||
| termin8d Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 60.234.129.189 |
Called: Enough of your condemning already. Where does it say in the bible that anyone practicing tithing is going to hell? Your theology is completely flawed. Do you honestly think that a person's salvation depends upon practicing things exactly as the apostles did, right down to the last detail? Sounds like works based salvation to me. And the person who keeps warning us to get out of Rome is starting to sound pretty Romish. | ||
| termin8d Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 60.234.129.189 |
As for the verses you just mentioned: Galatians 1:8-9 8 But if even we or an angel out of heaven should announce to you a gospel beyond that which we have announced to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, now also I say again, If anyone announces to you a gospel beyond that which you have received, let him be accursed. Once again we find that you have twisted the words of the bible. The verses here are clearly speaking about THE GOSPEL. Tithing is a practice but it is NOT the gospel. Neither Aaron, nor grace2u, nor anybody else here believes that tithing is required for one's salvation, that would just be absurd. Grace2u has made it quite clear that he practices such because of His love towards the Lord and He feels lead to give 10%. It has nothing to do with obligation or duty in order to maintain one's own salvation. Another common point of contention that people make is regarding the keeping of a Sabbath. Some people like to argue that it is necessary and if you don't practice it you will go to hell. Others would say that it is a Non-NT practice and if you practice it then you are going to hell. Both claims are absurd because Paul exercises a broad heart when He writes ; Colossians 2:16-17 16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a feast or a new moon or of the Sabbath 17 Which are a shadow of the things to come but the Body is of Christ. And also in Romans 14:4-6 4 Who are you to judge another's household servant? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One who judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He who regards that day, regards it to the Lord; and He who eats, eats to the Lord; for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat, does not eat to the Lord; and he gives thanks to God. In the same spirit as Paul, exercise a broad heart Called, and do not insist your list of regulations upon others because it is the Lord who makes one stand. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 345 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! 17 Which are a shadow of the things to come but the Body is of Christ. A "type" is our modern word for "shadow". Called - what you see in the OT is the shadow - the NT presents Christ. Thank you! | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 346 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I totally messed up the scripture reference above. Anyway it is: Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec : ) Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Notice the movement - from Abraham's tenth to and the High Priest, to the tithe and the Levite Priests to Christ. The 10th or tithe represented a tithe or a completeness or perfection. Still the law was found not perfect but a shadow of things to come. The real completeness or perfection is found in Christ. (Message edited by Grace2u on July 31, 2007) | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 227 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.206.202 |
titheing did not start with the law it started with abrham and was carried over into the law and was also carried over ( i believe to the nt church ) at any rate i pay... PAY my tithes and give GIVE my offerings and i am very blessed for it we do not sell blessings nor do i buy blesssings. we have cd of our services which we sell for one dollar to the ones who want them but we give them to the others . who cant affors them. we ask for a dollar so we can buy mor cds to put the services on. but selling or buying in the church blessings ... no never . i feel that those who dont believe in giveing to the church should never ask the church for anything since they dont help keep it up. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.206 |
Personally, I don’t believe there ever was a requirement given from God to tithe. I believe this is corruption in the bible. But that doesn’t mean that the man made laws of tithing weren’t fairly drawn in those early times. Tithing was only required by those industries that could easily afford it. The focus in the NT is to be a cheerful giver but no requirement to tithe. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
i feel that those who dont believe in giveing to the church should never ask the church for anything since they dont help keep it up. Unfortunately, that attitude in the church no longer surprises me. One can always come up with some excuse as to why they don't have to give to help someone in need, but what you need to ask yourself is .... when you see Jesus face to face, will he count you among the sheep or the goats? Matthew 25:42-46 For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn't give me anything to drink. I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me no clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' "Then they will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?' And he will answer, 'I assure you, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." | ||
| termin8d Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 130.123.225.69 |
Marta, I agree with you there. Aaron, I think your position needs a little bit more thinking through. As for who keeps the church up? It is Christ and Christ alone. What little we may be able to offer is incomparable to the Lord's grace. | ||
| grace2u Intermediate Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 347 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Amen. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 229 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.206.202 |
well you all three need to think also that it taes money to do anything today and the bible says money answereth all things. they gave in bible times they still gav during nt times and they still give today the ones who beliieve do. yes i believe in giveing to the poor for JESUS said too but HE did not say to take the tithe and the offereings to do so we are to give extra for them if necessary. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Why don't you tell us (and please include scripture references) where Jesus told us to take our tithes and offerings? I can't find a single place where Jesus instructed His followers about tithing. He did speak to the Pharisees about tithing ... but don't forget, the Pharisees were required under the law to tithe. And even though they tithed religiously, they omitted the more important things ... like justice, mercy, and faith. (Sound familiar?) I can't find a single place where Jesus told His followers how much it costs to run a ministry and then proceeded to collect tithes or offerings. Every time Jesus told anyone to GIVE, He told them to GIVE to the poor. If ANYONE was ever qualified to collect a tithe (the so called tenth that BELONGS to God) ... it was Jesus. So, why didn't He teach His disciples to tithe to Him? Why didn't He give us clear instructions about who was qualified to receive the tithe and what the tithe was to be used for? You really need to stop claiming things that are not scriptural. If you want to give ten percent to your church, you are free to do so. But God never asked anyone to do this. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 230 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.206.202 |
and you need to read the scriptures.. it says in the same place you were talking about these thing you ought to have done and not leave the others undone. JESUS did not condemn tithein he up held it. abraham tithed to mechelezdek and JESUS IS THE HIGH PREIEST AFTER his order. but we are to give for the up keep of the church and that includes tithe paying and we need to keep in mund that there is supposed to be meat in GODS house ( something to work with ) and there is noe if people dont tithe like some try to say they should not. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I have read the scriptures ... have you? Of course Jesus told the Pharisees that they should tithe, the Pharisees were required to tithe under the law, to tell anyone under the law that they were not required to keep the law would have been the same as saying that the law was unjust. No where does Jesus say that the tithe is to be used to keep up the church ... even under the law the tithe was not used to keep up the temple. It was given to help support the Levite priests (who were not given an inheritance like the other tribes) and the orphan, the widow, the stranger ... in other words, the tithe was given to help those who did not have their own land, crops and animals ... the "meat in God's house" was to be supplied to those who had need. People are more important than buildings. If you don't understand that, you don't know the heart of God. If you build monuments to God but ignore the needs of those around you ... you are acting just like the Pharisees who Jesus rebuked. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 80 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Jeremiah 9:23-24 This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man gloat in his wisdom, or the mighty man in his might, or the rich man in his riches. Let them boast in this alone: that they truly know me and understand that I am the LORD who is just and righteous, whose love is unfailing, and that I delight in these things. I, the LORD, have spoken! | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 107 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.206 |
Jeremiah 6:20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me. Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Psalm 50:8-13 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Isaiah 1:11-13 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. It seems to me that offerings were never required. And it is likely that tithing was never required by God. However, when tithes were discussed in the Jewish bible: 1. Booty from war was sometimes tithable. 2. Food products from the land were tithable. 3. Money was never a titheable commodity. The NT never requires tithes. | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 211 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 69.30.157.124 |
"It seems to me that offerings were never required. And it is likely that tithing was never required by God. However, when tithes were discussed in the Jewish bible:" Actually, the verses you supplied to prove your point..well..they didn't actually prove your point. Nice try tho. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 108 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.206 |
you are right, nothing here can be proved. But common sense tells me that God did not require any of this, and scripture supports that thought just as much as scripture supports any flim-flam artist who might be going after our hard earned money. I give to the needy and support my church, but I never count my money to make sure I tithe. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
The only tithes REQUIRED by God were the ones established under the Mosaic law, the tithe was always food products from the land, not money. And it's interesting to note that for one of the tithes that was required under the law, God allowed the tither to eat his own tithe ... Deuteronomy 14:22-29 "You must set aside a tithe of your crops one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year. Bring this tithe to the place the LORD your God chooses for his name to be honored, and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. Which all proves absolutely NOTHING since we are no longer under the law. | ||
| termin8d Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 130.123.128.114 |
I think at the end of the day, if one feels lead by the Lord to give then that is between he and the Lord. If one feels not to give, it is between he and the Lord. The Lord wants our heart, not our money, but if we give our money out of love for our Lord and His church then who is anyone to criticize. As Marta has said, we are no longer under the law. Let all be done for the glory of the Lord and not for the tearing down of the Body of Christ. One who gives and boasts in his giving, that he is somehow holier than those who do not is on the wrong track. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 82 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Amen | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 109 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.206 |
termin8d If you feel compelled to give to your church, fine. I give to my church too. After all, there are bills to pay. But I get very irritated with those who preach tithing of money. It is not scriptural, not in the Jewish bible, not in the Christian bible. Too many churches record exactly what you give – this is not right. It is nothing but an attempt to place guilt on your lack of giving – no matter how much that is. Too many con-artists out there, many of them are preachers. I know I am in a minority when compared to the Christian population, but I also believe that the required tithing in the OT was a corruption of the text. That is, it was man’s law, not God’s. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
But I get very irritated with those who preach tithing of money. I really don't care what people do with their own money. That's between them and God. Unfortunately, there are too many church leaders who don't agree. They use any trick to raise money for their church or ministry. Tithing is just the tip of the ice burg. Having spent time in a WOF church, I have witnessed first hand the blatant misuse of scripture, the manipulation, the intimidation, the guilt ... and for what? Even if the money is eventually used for some glorious purpose (which is probably rare) does the end ever justify the means? Churches and ministries should be supported by free will offerings. If you can't support your church or ministry this way, then shut the doors because God is not in it. | ||
| termin8d Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 73 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 130.123.225.69 |
ba2: I appreciate where you're coming from. I give offerings, but I don't think of it as tithing. All I'm saying is that people are getting too dogmatic about it. Called went beyond the line when he condemned those who practice it. I think there is an agreement among us. Where I meet we just have an offering box at the back and people can give something in secret if they want. No collection plates are handed around. We can argue all day about what kind of tithes or offerings were made in the OT. As far as I'm concerned, we are in the NT age, and all things should be done not under compulsion but by the Lord's leading. | ||
| lema_nal Member Username: lema_nal Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 80.250.190.11 |
termin8d, I know that in Local Church you have an offering box in the corner. It is possible not to offer anything. I myself had this experience while I was in Local Church. However, do you know that Witness Lee said that members of Local Church should offer, at least 15 per cent of their income? He said that in the Old Testament times people offered 10 per cent. This is minimum. But in the New Testament times, believers should give more. He also said that 20 working members of Local Church should support one co-worker (Local Church minister). So, they should give 5 per cent for this purpose. Totally, it is 15 per cent. He said this is minimum. | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1719 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.197.62.202 |
"I'm not going to plant seeds where I am judged for my gift anymore." wayfaring stranger The scriptural rule for all Christian giving is cheerfully. No giving that is begrudged nor made 'of necessity' is acceptable to God. Many people (preachers and members alike) begin to judge the giving of others by their own standards that they want to make law in Christ. Simply put, that which was law in God's Old Covenant is not to be preached as Law of Christ, except Scripture specifically says so again. Good Christians taking their stand of liberty do well to give as Jesus would have them from the heart and refuse the false judgments, rules, and opinions of others (1 Cor 10:29): no matter how much such judges like to believe and preach it. "I think spending an hour at a soup kitchen is a much more worthwhile gift then any currency placed in a preists offering plate." dream truth That's fine; however, it is God's written will for Christians to give cheerfully, freely, and by personal faith for the support of them called to live of the gospel they preach. (1 Cor 9:6-14) Christians are also exhorted to give to fellow-believers in need, whether personlly or by common collection (James 2:14-17)(1 cor 16:1) And finally, if a Christian has whereof to give more to others, for whatever reason from their heart, then they are certainly free to do so. In this way, no believer is any better than another, neither is their giving more acceptable to God than another's, so long as it is given cheerfully by personal faith in Jesus. |
