| Author | Message | ||
     stu New member Username: stu Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 62.252.0.12 |
I am extremely concerned about my two friends (they are partners)they have been to 2 RSE courses and now are going to the three days of "initiation" hoping to join the ranks of Ramtha's Blue College. I have looked up Ramtha's Blue College and found this forum, and this has only hardened my belief that the whole J Z Knight/Ramtha thing is a cult of nothing that only swells the bank account of J Z. My question is (This is in part selfish as I don't want to lose them as friends, but has I have read the threads I think I will lose them) can I make them see that the whole RSE is a lie. One of them said to me "you need to be brainwashed to accept new ideas" am I banging my head against a brick wall and just accept the fact they are going to go and that's that. They already seem to think they are superior to others. I just don't want them to be harmed as I love them dearly. I know this will be difficult to answer but I'm at a dead end Thanks Stu | ||
| in_the_zone Member Username: in_the_zone Post Number: 51 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 67.176.40.134 |
Hi Stu. I catch your feelings of despair. You might first want to stop banging your head against the wall, as you wrote in your own words. It won't help your friends and you might harm yourself! You'll probably get a number of posts here on this issue. This is a gnarly, tangled issue to be sure because on the one hand, there's your concern for them and on the other hand, there's the superiority issue your friends are sporting. You can't save them, this I'm sure you know, especially since they will be using RSE to support their superiority issues. If I were in your shoes, I'd elect not to confront them on this until you do some inner work. I would spend some quality quiet time in deep silence. See them as awakening to the absolute truth (I would call RSE the relative truth masquerading as absolute truth). See each of the two individually and seperate from each other coming into the complete awareness of truth as they are capable of seeing it now. The benefit of this is that it is possible they need some degredation...that they are asking for an abusive situation and if that is so, you can only be a bystander, in my opinion. By seeing each of them as comning into absolute truth for themselves, you are not interfering with their destiny as they are creating it while at the same time it's an exercise you can do right now. If I think of anything I could add, I'll be glad to do so by posting again. Other people who post here might have some more tangible actions you can take. Bon Chance. | ||
| voidgate Intermediate Member Username: voidgate Post Number: 158 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 144.138.162.136 |
STU, Below is an article that was recently in the Nisqually Valley Newpaper under "Letters to the Editor". The fact is that RSE has been in operation since 1988. Prior to that "Ramtha" gave his teachings in words and there was no active partcipation involved by those attending. The organization was then called Ramtha Dialogues. These presentations probably went on for about a decade prior to the formation of the school. So in 18 years plus another 10 of Dialogues not one person can prove Ramtha's basic level of accomplishment. Whilst many appear to achieve things at the events almost no one can do anything with any presentable consistency. This fact eludes most in the euphoria of the events. One of the teachers who could accomplish Fieldwork with consistency was humiliated out of the organization after decades of study and teaching. You could point this out to your friends and ask them to check around if this is the truth. Also the student numbers do not stack up. The student numbers at present are listed as about 3,000. They have been consistently about 2,000 to 3,000 since the inception of RSE. Tens of thousands have been "educated" at RSE since its inception (stated on their website). If the knowledge is so great to benefit people's lives then why are there so few current students. They learn to create their reality and they have not passed the basic level of attainment put forward by Ramtha so why are they absent??? Also I would recommend that you tell your friends to investigate the lives of long term students living in the Yelm area....many are in poverty. Some of them charge utterly outrageous prices for those flying in for events. Your friends may find this out if staying at a bed and breakfast. It would be very beneficial to investigate the lives of long term students. Your friends will come up with the conclusionthat there appears to be a great discrepancy between what is taught and their lives. Then it is no longer hearsay and someone else's opinion. They have observed it for themselves. | ||
| voidgate Intermediate Member Username: voidgate Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 144.138.162.136 |
Letter to the Editor - Nisqually Valley News There is always a proliferation of defense of Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment every time there is any objection against it. In actual fact there is not one student of RSE, past or present can prove the education given at RSE after18 years of its operation. Likewise the staff and JZ Knight cannot prove it either. There is almost no consistency of any student to accomplish anything taught and many have been students for greater than 15 years. Putting forward the benefits of RSE as greater commerce in the Yelm area or the important workplace occupations, or accomplishments, of some of the students is irrational. An educational institution can be evaluated by the number of students who accomplish a certain level, as presented by the teacher, with consistency. That is what the customers have paid for. In this case a very high price. The Preliminary Level of accomplishment put forward by “Ramtha” (put simply for those uninvolved) was to become an honest person, free of emotional, ulterior motives for one’s actions; that emotions such as anger, guilt and hatred all have an ulterior motive of controlling other people. “Ramtha” stated that prior to puberty the thymus gland in the body is large and the energy in the body is sitting in the chest area. At puberty the energy descends and the thymus gland shrinks to the size of a pea. The person also adopts the attitude of their gender. When a student has transcended all of these emotions the energy rises again. The person becomes an individual adopting an attitude of neither gender. It is described similar to the kundalini of yogic tradition. The thymus gland swells and the body regenerates and becomes youthful again. Quite obviously a birth certificate, an ID and witnessing the body of a student can prove this teaching. No one that has been involved can prove this. Not one graduate at the base level since the school’s inception. Words mean nothing unless they can be validated. Christel Ricke, Attended RSE for 7 years, applied instruction for an additional 10 years. Last Attended in 2005. Australia. | ||
| journeythroughramthaland Member Username: journeythroughramthaland Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.170.95.25 |
Stu, You are in a difficult position. You may want to ask your friends what they expect to attain in the school. Then ask them for a timeline on when they expect to attain each of the things they mention. Then you might ask thier permission to remind them of thier time line should they not attain what they originaly expected. It may give you a chance to at a later date show them how their expectations have been altered by the group and school. | ||
| david_mccarthy Intermediate Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 201 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.104.206 |
Some wise advice here.. Stu.. Thank you for your post. Your questions and concerns are those that I and many others on this board have struggled with, and are profoundly important to address.. Speaking out... is an enormous first step. There can be no logical or critical thinking dialogue with anyone that has succumbed to the RSE indoctrination's, much like a computer virus.. they will be seeking “you” as a new host. Personally I do not recommend cutting the ties with a loved one involved in any cult, this may only lead to further heartbreak and possible disaster, having said that… keeping a healthy distance… emotionally, physically and financially will help keep you and your family safer. The more publicly we share with stories, concerns and knowledge… the weaker JZ Knight’s grip on our loved ones and community. LARSE.. “life after RSE” WE are working closely to bring together information and the support we all need; Soon we will have our own Internet website… also a series of video interviews with former students titled Speaking freely… Life after RSE. These will be made available for free Internet download. The more I educate myself about likes of JZ Knight and similar cults the more I realize just how much our society is at the mercy of these clever sociopaths. JZ Knight cannot survive without the help of her inner circle illuminati.. who constantly jostle for attention and power, I have spoken to some of them who got out.. But are still fearful of JZ Knight Inc..and without the moral courage and conscience to tell the truth of what goes on behind the Ramtha curtain. There is accountability to be looked at here; especially for those who played a major role in building the RSE Empire while feeding off the inner circle table. I appeal to these people to find the courage and speak out publicly.. You are not alone? Most of us have been shipwrecked on the shores of Ramthaland, Lured in by the RSE lighthouse of deception, And we all thought we could Sail the Seven Seas.. Chuckle. David. | ||
| whatchamacallit Intermediate Member Username: whatchamacallit Post Number: 261 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.177.245.142 |
Just spent some time catching up on posts. Stu, I think you've received some good advice from others with experience. To add to their comments, I will just say that if I can sum up, in one word, the golden key to communications with your friends, that will reach them, it is the key of DOUBT. I don't think there is a single person in RSE that has not ever had doubt at one time or another. I think it is simply a matter of degree of doubt. It becomes fearful to have doubt, because one is indoctrinated to believe they must slay their doubt, as it is the "sword of the image". But, it's there. It's actually there, because it SHOULD BE THERE. There is plenty of reason for it to be there. However, the first thing YOU may be able to do, is comment to your friends, that YOU have doubt about the path they have chosen, although you will respect that they do have the right to choose a religious expression (they have a Constitutional Right, actually). Then, you may want to ask them if THEY have ANY doubt, and if so, what ? NOT to badger them about it at all, as they'll likely shut down on you. Just see what you get for a response. A denial of any doubt is a signpost for you. They are NOT ready to listen or think for themselves. At least, not now. But, you will have kept the doors open to them, expressed DOUBT, and also shown RESPECT to them for their choice, though it's not YOUR choice. Depending on their response to you, you may also want to point out that you've heard some things about RSE that cause you concern, in addition to your doubt. See if they pick up on it. Whatever you do, just don't be pushy with them. It will only serve to damage. Patience is best. That's MY opinion. For years, I was unable to hear other's concerns/doubts. I mean, I heard them, but I filed them away for a rainy day. One day, the file was REALLY FULL. I took it off the back burner of my mind and put it right up, front and center. Thus began my freedom!!!! You may even want to save "educational information" for a time your friends are ready to hear it. There are plenty of resources available that are on the flip side of the coin from the glossy marketing campaign of RSE. One only has to look. | ||
| david_mccarthy Intermediate Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 205 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.104.206 |
Malignant Pied Pipers.. There is a new book out... LION OF TERROR by Dr. Olsson An Applied Psychological Study of OSAMA BIN LADEN. In addition to setting out the parameters for his discussion of the cult leaders, Dr. Olsson discusses his methodology for the book, defines both benign and destructive cults, and shows how the Malignant Pied Piper invariably exploits and abuses cult members and leads them toward a violent, apocalyptic end. A case study of the RAMTHA cult and its leader J. Z. Knight demonstrates the allure of cults for people who are vulnerable, for one reason or another, to the promises and aggressive techniques of cult leaders. Chapter One. Understanding the Malignant Pied Piper.. How do charismatic/messianic personalities like Jim Jones or Osama bin Laden develop? What enables them to play a godlike, parental role for their followers? Each of the Malignant Pied Pipers studied in this book has two key aspects to his aberrant personality development — a traumatic childhood characterized by neglect, humiliation, and rejection; and later experiences termed “dark epiphanies” that intensify an already malformed personality. All of the destructive cult leaders fit the diagnosis for Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well as Malignant Narcissism. David Koresh and the Branch Davidians of Waco, Texas Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple of Jonestown Charles Manson, the Helter Skelter Killer; Shoko Asahara, Bizarre Messiah of Aum Shinrikyo Marshal Applewhite of Heaven’s Gate; Luc Jouret and Joseph DeMambro of the Suicidal Solar Temple Osama bin Laden — The Ultimate Malignant Pied Piper Chapter Eight: Fighting Back What to do if someone you know joins a destructive cult — what works, what doesn’t, what might be effective. Illustrated by case studies. What can we as a society do to change the conditions that make people more vulnerable to cults and apocalyptic scenarios? Can they be identified before they can hurt people or families? by PublishAmerica LION OF TERROR: from http://www.houstonpsychiatry.org/1148480479 | ||
| david_mccarthy Intermediate Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 206 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.104.206 |
Peter Olsson's second book, LION OF TERROR was cancelled by the publisher at the very last minute. They said it might be construed as descriminatory towards an individual or group based on "religion, nationality or ethnic group". Possibly they were afraid of reaction like occured to the cartoon publishers in Denmark. awhile ago. He is searching for another publisher. (Message edited by David_McCarthy on November 27, 2006) | ||
| david_mccarthy Intermediate Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 207 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.104.206 |
Malignant Pied Pipers of Our Time: by Peter A. Olsson M.D. A link to Amazon books http://www.amazon.com/Malignant-Pied-Pipers-Time-Psychological/dp/141377668X/sr=11-1/qid=1164659443/ref=sr_11_1/104-5524479-5670324 | ||
| naturegirl New member Username: naturegirl Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.18.11.144 |
Stu, I was once a member of Ramtha school and what people have said on this board is true. Honestly, if your friends are involved in the school and you try to interfere, they will most likely end the friendship because people that are involved in that group, feel that they are better then outsider. When I left the school and people wanted me to come back and I did not, I kept telling them not right now, but the day I told them never would I return, and I don't like to use the word never, but in this case, never will I return. So when I informed them of me not returning, they stop calling and interacting with me all together. They were really not my friends. My advice, release and let go and pray for them to see the light. I heard the school is now all about science, they had to go into a different direction. The wine events were loosing so many people and all of the scams, they had to try something different and I think science is working. But your friends they do not have to pay all of that money for science, they can go to the library to gain that knowledge. One last thing, this event the Blue College, you are so brainwash that you think this is the group and if you are not in this group, then you are nobody to the rest of the ramtha people. I was around a long time and the moment that I begin to wake up, wow what a moment. My turning point was May 5, 2000, the world was coming to a end. Now that is a whole different story. Honestly, people that have been to Ramtha school, could write a book on the lies, he told people. All that I can say, don't go and run as far as you can. Do not get suck into the Ramtha thing.. | ||
| david_mccarthy Intermediate Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 211 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.104.206 |
naturegirl... Welcome to our little corner of the Frequency Specific… New Neighborhood.. Timeline reality.. RSE quitters club.. Chuckle.. I remember "Ramtha" describing the "quitters" as dead wood to be cut off.. I was thinking….I would never ever quit, No not me.. After all I was an alchemist "Omakad" .. One of the Radical few.. Poised to seed the new world with enlightenment and healing,. .Just as soon as Armageddon and Jehovah and his reptilian army had passed by.. that is.. The snubbing of former students is an affront... But hey,,that is what a cult will do to bright intelligent and caring people who surrender their reasoning powers at the gates of JZ Knight’s fantasy world. Perhaps... The Ghost of Christmas Past… And the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come? will be knocking on the RSE gates this year? I really hope so. David | ||
| naturegirl New member Username: naturegirl Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.18.11.144 |
David, It is good to be here!!!! I am proud of you with the event that took place in Sept. I would have been there if I knew about it. | ||
| david_mccarthy Intermediate Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 213 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.104.206 |
Thank you naturegirl, It's always very encouraging to receive some positive feedback about our LARSE gathering.. I will keep you posted. Recently I was approached by a well known Ramtha fanatic.. I tried to beat a hasty retreat but she caught up with me, A high noon in QFC sort of thing.. I know why you are doing this.. she tells me Its all about reclaiming our power.. Thank you.. Smiles all round.. That was a good day.. So be it.. Chuckle.. David | ||
| naturegirl New member Username: naturegirl Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.18.11.144 |
David, One thing for sure which has been posted on this board, the people that came to RSE was totally sincere about there spirituality and the lies and the fear that Ramtha tried to inject in people was wrong. I remember him saying leave CA before 2000 because the world was coming to a end. I sold everything moved up to WA in Nov. 1999 and he left the school because he said people were not getting it and the whole town was depressed and he came back in Jan and he laughed about it and said yes I lied. So then he said May 5, 2000 the world is coming to a end, everyone was to go to the mountain because only there you would be safe and he told us not to tell our family. Well the fear that I put myself through was crazy and nothing happen. Every opportunity he has had to instill fear into people, he used it. The lockdowns, all the games he played. The omega, I personally knew three people that were at that time friends. They has saved money for there retirement. Took there retirement and gave it to omega, one $50K, $200K $100K. They all left the school after that. These were people that had enough. You just don't tell people to invest and if he is so enlighten, he should have seem the future that the omega was not real. Ramtha lies goes on and on. I thought the Dr. Joe thing was interesting when the movie What The Bleep.... Dr. Joe part about creating your day, people not in the school went cazy about wanting to know about that. Dr Joe was getting lots of attention, organizations wanted him to come and speak. JZ fired him and put a message on Beyond the ordinary, stating that she had fired him because Dr. Joe did not give ramtha the credit and he was basically interested in his own journey. Bottomline, she did not want him to make any money and she wanted the school to get the attention, so she would have more students and dr. joe was interested in speaking at engagments and not bringing her back the dough, so she fired him as a teacher at rse. She has removed the message recently about firing dr. joe. The point is, she really don't want anyone to get ahead, Dr. joe to me is a excellent teacher and he should have had the right to speak at engagments without her drama. I think she came at him legally which forced him to cancel many engagements. She is only interested in making her pockets richer!!!!! | ||
| in_the_zone Member Username: in_the_zone Post Number: 53 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 67.176.40.134 |
I find it interesting that many people who post here, myself included until very recently, refer to ramtha as a being..you know, ramtha said this, ramtha said that. Here's the bottom line...there is no ramtha. The one we call ramtha is an illusion That one does not exist. Now I understand why I could never tolerate listening to this illusion on a cd or watching him on a tape or dvd. Watching the illusion on tape made me feel sick...like I was looking at shadows with dubbed in words. There was no substance and I could feel it. There's no one there. Like the wizard on the screen in Wizard of Oz. I don't know who's playing the professor behind the curtain...I don't think it's JZ...she's clever and devious but not that smart. Who or whatever it is, I really think he/she/it does NOT have anyone's best interests in mind...even JZ's...she's being made the biggest fool. In fact, he/she/it delights in the confusion, poverty of purse and spirit that results in attending rse with any degree of sincerity and dilligence. Maybe it would be good to just call he/she/it ramtha "the apparent one". | ||
| whatchamacallit Intermediate Member Username: whatchamacallit Post Number: 265 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.177.245.142 |
"Maybe it would be good to just call he/she/it ramtha "the apparent one"." I like that. Got a hearty laugh from that one! Thought, "it" is also non-apparent. Apparently non-apparent ? (insert humor) I think others, and I know for myself, I refer to "JZ" and "Ramtha" as the two "presenting" beings, for ease of conversation, and others understanding what is being said by which "presenting face", so to speak. It doesn't necessarily equate believing that Ramtha is a genuine being. While that may bug some folks to even mention ("it's" name as Ramtha), others aren't bothered by it. Posting or writing, as we know, lacks the body language that goes along with it. Most of communication occurs with body language, or at least the person's voice, to convey MEANING and/or INTENT. That said, us posters could be misunderstood. Does that mean to refrain from posting to meet someone else's standards ? I think not. We're all entitled to our opinions, and stating our opinions. We're not responsible for the myriad of ways others may perceive what is said, or think we could have or should have, said one thing or another. Yes, there are folks who believe "Ramtha" exists. Some think he exists, and is malevolent. Some current students think he is a God and whatever he does or says is for their own ultimate good. Personally, I think that's nuts. Then, others think that "Ramtha" is nothing more than JZ either intentionally faking it, or deluded into thinking she's channeling a God. Many opinions...thankfully, we're free to state them. I chatted with some folks who believe there is no Ramtha, and they call "him/her" "J/R", instead of JZ. I hadn't heard that before. It's all just awfully sad, but (for me, anyway), it's helpful to maintain a sense of humor about it. | ||
| journeythroughramthaland Member Username: journeythroughramthaland Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.170.95.25 |
Nature girl, I don't mean to butt in, but I am, I would think that you would be in a good position to help explain to Stu how you might have been effected (or possibly you were) by friends or family who maintained contact with you and maintained as much of a relationship as possible with you so as to give you and alternative perspective that many in the group might not have had. PS have a look here http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi con't... | ||
| journeythroughramthaland Member Username: journeythroughramthaland Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.170.95.25 |
Below is an except from a post under the mind control thread. I have not read the complete article yet but expect to be searching it up. Stu, you may find it helpful. “Miracle, Mystery and Authority: The Triangle of Cult Indoctrination,” by John Hochman, MD. I quote it because it describes the cult I was in perfectly. Here are Dr. Hochman’s observations: What Cults Want Cults want wealth and power for the leadership, to be supplied by members. Wealth may include: · transfer of cash, real estate, and cars, · profits, from exploitation of members' labor in cult-owned businesses, and · funds raised deceptively from relatives and other non-members. Power may include: · manipulation of all relationships, work, or schooling to solely the needs of the cult, · assignment of city and country of residence, · regulation of pregnancy and sexual favors, · behavioral/ideologic controls via group punishments, or threatened expulsions, and · limitation of members' opportunities to sleep, to pursue individual interests, or simply to reflect. Leaders exhort members to proselytize; predictably, more members mean more wealth and power for the leaders. What Cults Don't Want Cults are uninterested in altruism as a moral imperative. Most have self-serving moralities to benefit the organization and its leadership in particular. Individual fulfillment is irrelevant. Pseudoaltruistic activity helps image building. Cults don't want high overhead. Members in cult enterprises may be underpaid or unpaid, work in unsafe environments, or have no provision for medical care. No cult wants its inner workings exposed, although sophisticated cults may curry media interest or even employ public relations consultants and ad agencies to manage their image. Cults do not want to be called "cults." . . .Some groups ignore being called cults, others launch personal attacks on their critics. Some have taken a more gentle approach, explaining that they are a misunderstood new religion, as were the Christians martyred in Rome. . . . Cults and Thought Reform: Definitions and Studies Cults are groups using thought reform to recruit and control members, by employing the following: · Miracle - ideology imputing miraculous power to leaders and/or activities. · Mystery - secrecy obscuring actual beliefs and practices. · Authority - claims on members' time, talents, bodies, or property to meet group needs (Hochman, Psychiatric Annals/April 1990). So, the question in everyone's mind is, "What can I do to draw ________ out of the cult?" Unfortunately, it is not easy, and it is not quick. One BIG mistake many make is pointing out the faults/lies/mistakes/sins of the cult leader. Do NOT do this. In brainwashing, rationality & reason have no effect. The only thing which will work is relationships and love. The primary thing is love. This may take years, but the cult leader wants your loved ones to forget you. To help counteract this, regularly send letters, including photographs of you & your loved one together. Call, even if they don't want to talk. Don't be frustrated when they sound like robots & are not the same person you remember. Don't let them forget their old life. Usually, every cult member has a brief time in which he will doubt the cult leader. If you are clearly available as an alternate family to the cult, and you have not given up, your loved one may leave the cult for you at this time. http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi | ||
| stu New member Username: stu Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 82.13.20.2 |
Thank you all for your support I really mean that. Having looked at the larse video it made a lot of sense, so I stopped questioning them about the lack of evidence, what they have achieved and why the hell are they doing it. I told them if it makes them happy then I'm happy and now they talk more openly about what happens at these retreats. But and its a big BUT since coming back to England after paradise beach they have taken up smoking a pipe, drinking a "lot" of wine, saying something about it releasing some chemical in the Brain and getting married so one of them can get a green card in the green card lottery, so they can move to Yelm. After reading up using some links provided on here on cults and why people join cults (they are good examples), I invited them to join me and my family for Christmas day to show them that my family and friends care about them (and we do) that if they move to yelm and for one reason or another come back, we will be there for them, not to say we told you so, but just to be there for them, not to question their decision. Its their life not mine and I have to respect that. You might agree with me or disagree, but lets keep discussing RSE as it really helped me. I'm no good at writing what in my head but thank you for your help Stu |
