| Author | Message | ||
     lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 338 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Here are a few of definitions from Meriam-Webster Online: Main Entry: dupe Pronunciation: 'düp also 'dyüp Function: noun Etymology: French, from Middle French duppe, probably alteration of huppe hoopoe : one that is easily deceived or cheated : FOOL Main Entry: ma·nip·u·late Pronunciation: m&-'ni-py&-"lAt Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing Etymology: back-formation from manipulation, from French, from manipuler to handle an apparatus in chemistry, ultimately from Latin manipulus 1 : to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner 2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage 3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose Main Entry: brain·wash·ing Pronunciation: 'brAn-"wo-shi[ng], -"wä- Function: noun Etymology: translation of Chinese (Beijing) xina<hacek>o 1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas 2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship - brain·wash transitive verb - brainwash noun - brain·wash·er noun I am going to make a couple of assumptions. First is that most people from cult experts to victims of cults and their families do not think that brain-washing is persuasive salesmanship, but forcible indoctrination. Second is that most of us consider brain-washing and mind control as the same thing (there was no definition for mind control at m-w.com). It would be great to read what others think about brain washing regarding gg. Personally, in the 20+ years I was there, I was never brain washed. I was definitely duped, but not brainwashed. There was no indoctrination that I did not willingly submit to. There was no sleep deprivation or dietary control in Lenox and it was impossible to control people in Baltimore that way since there are no dormitories or cafeterias where such control could happen. I am not sugesting that I was better or stronger than others who might claim to have been brain washed. On the contrary, if I was brainwashed, it was gg's fault and I was a victim. If on the other hand, I was duped, then it was my fault and I was naive. It is comforting to know that there were many who are smarter than me who were manipulated by chs also. What attracted me to tbs in the 80s was that they appeared to dogmatically believe what they preached and live what they believe. They had a message that said God loves me and wants to forgive me and use me to do his work. Tbs had soul winning which seemed to be in keeping with the Great Commision given by Christ Himself. Chs preached with great conviction and dogmatism and I never perceived that he was yelling at me. I heard the attacks against tbs very early in my experience before I ever saw any "red flags" for myself. That made me very reactionary and caused me to alienate myself from outside influence and opinion. What was meant to free me from tbs drove me deeper into it. I did not need to hear tbs compared to moonies or jws. I knew tbs was Christian. We all like to make the "kool-aide" comparison regarding tbs/gg, but in reality there was never any danger of mass suicide and we knew it. My conclusion of what kept many of us there was not that they cast some sort of spell on us, but that they were able to appear to be something they were not. They lived a lie. We believed the lie. Jesus warned people not to follow Pharisees who pretended to be holy men of God, but were in reality lying hypocrites. That's all for now. (Message edited by lmao on November 19, 2006) | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1104 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Headlines in the "News of the World" of London sometime in '76 or '77: End of the World Cult Turns Girls into Zombies (they had got hold of some of Stan Ashby's wacko teachings about the years of revival to precede the rapture and tribulation) at the same time, the Brentwood Gazette published a similar story (with the photographs of the two infamous local pastors). Headlines: BRAINWASHED! the local member of parliament for Essex launched a government investigation (this came on the heels of the 'Children of God' debacle)... We could hardly go to the local fish & chippy without getting dirty looks. | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 949 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
We were led to believe we were in the ministry of ministries when it comes to evangelical fundamentalist churches. On the surface the teachings seemed mainstream and beneficial at first. We heard about salvation is by grace alone. We heard that salvation can never be lost. We heard about receiving Christ as savior by faith for salvation. We thought we were in a normal church but we were duped. What we thought was a church was actually a personality cult run by Carl Stevens and his insiders to control people and exploit them for personal gain. Underneath the truths were many lies. Lies about delegated authority given to pastor teachers giving them absolute authority and control over any member of their church. Then there were the lies about facing divine judgement for any church services you didn't attend. People were taught to put the GGWO ministry above their own needs and that of their own loved ones and friends. The list goes on and on. People were led astray into false teachings designed to undermine peoples' critical thinking skills, common sense, and personal individuality to make them docile servants for the GGWO leadership that would never question anything or believe anything is ever wrong at GGWO. Many people were also subjected to tight information controls keeping them from any information that differed from whatever the GGWO leadership wanted them to have. Repeated teachings of erroneous doctrine along with very convincing repeated rebuttals to any beliefs contrary to GGWO doctrine caused many to be brainwashed. People were basically reprogrammed with Carl Stevens beliefs in place of their own. I've personally witnessed this happening to some people I knew at GG. After time they would go through personality shifts and speak out Carl Stevens doctrine without even really knowing what they were saying. Their responses in discussions sounded like preprogrammed responses instead of well thought out responses. They lacked the ability to think and reason apart from GG doctrine. One of my own friends was brainwashed into the GGWO beliefs and had to be deprogrammed over a period of several years. Fortunately it worked and he has since turned his back on GGWO and has moved on with his life in Christ. In the end, the answer is different for different people. Collectively we were duped by a cult of false teaching disguised as an evangelical church. Some others were unquestionably brainwashed with the forcable indoctrination that was widespread at GGWO. Others were never brainwashed for differing reasons. Some saw the red flags and just left. Others exposed the false teachings from within GGWO until they left or were forced out. Others never did see the signs and sank deeper and deeper into the GGWO delusion. Sad that many of them are still in GGWO today not thinking anything is wrong, that they're right where God wants them and that they're in the best ministry on earth. May God deliver more and more of them. | ||
| isabella Advanced Member Username: isabella Post Number: 711 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.31.11.230 |
Side, I'm really surprised this didn't get much attention. I find this the most interesting of topics. It's TG so, there's no time for Factnet & The Cult of TBS/GGWO/GM/IAMG/GIAM/MIAG...& on & on. BUT! I'll be back. Love to you Side.. Isabella | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 311 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 71.233.128.194 |
Isabella, I was wondering...does your first name begin with A...I think I might know you....then again I could be wrong | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 951 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
Love ya too Isabella. Thanks for all the great posts you've been putting up. I've also been wondering about this thread not getting much attention. Hopefully that will change in time. Thanks heaps to LMAO for starting this thread. This thread really gets to the heart of the whole GGWO problem since it deals with deception and brainwashing which we're both present at GGWO. The arrogant, self serving GGWO insiders really pulled a huge con job on many people by very cleverly disguising GGWO as an on fire evangelical, fundamentalist church when its really a personality cult for the service of men with big egos. What looks mainstream at first really isn't with the deadly blend of truths, half truths and outright lies there. No wonder a lot of well meaning sincere Christians got suckered into all this madness. Of course a lot of people got brainwashed too making things much worse yet. GGWO was all about control and forcable indoctrination. Free thinking or dissent was not welcome there. Not everyone was brainwashed, but many were. It was all part of making people docile little servant robots for serving Carl and his inner circle. I'll be back too. SIDETHORN | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 339 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Oj simpson (another person whose name I cannot bring myself to capitalize) is in news again lately. This morning I heard an audio clip of a recent interview he did in which he stated that he has always maintained his innocence regarding the double murder. In the short clip, he sounded credible and believable. If I had not closely followed the murder trial, I would have believed him. The parallel with chs is that he too has the ability to sound believable to those who have not seen the evidence. He hid behind Jesus' words "by their fruit you will know them" to keep us from looking at what was really going on. The reason I defended gg on this forum last year when chs was not around and the church seemed to be in turmoil was because I believed as a premise that chs and the leaders were who they said they were. I believed they were Godly men full of integrity and would work for the good of the ministry. I therefore assumed they would follow the bylaws during the leadership transition and that they would implement Sandy Cove. We were always "taught" that we do all things decently and in order and that we take up the cross rather than serve ourselves. I was sure they would do the right thing. When they mishandled the Stenger vote, I was done. It did not matter who would become the next pastor. What they did after that vote was such a blatant violation of everything I had been taught at gg that I stopped believing that they were who they said they were since the evidence to the contrary was right in front of me. Once I stopped believing they were who they pretended to be, I finally read the CRI report and saw that the Sandy Cove reforms had all been tried before. Chs called it a conspiracy and I just assumed he was honest because of the "fruit". I was told that the report was all lies and hearsay with a lot of quotes from negative people about how the church hurt them but no evidence. It was nothing of the sort. It just pointed out areas where the church had to change to improve its standing with the Christian community at large. The report even commended the church for its outreach and its emphasis on "the completed work of Christ". He lied about that report and I believed him. It was the same with the court case. I just assumed chs was innocent and any news coverage would be slanted in favor of the heiress and her wealthy family. | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
The ministry in many ways was what chs claimed it to be since many of us were there to get to know and serve God and that is just what we did. The many sincere Christians who served in outreach and more importantly lived Christian lives full of genuine fruit testify to that. Chs used this to his benefit. That is one reason I think Christian groups are in some ways more dangerous than non-christian cults. The hook they use is the real thing. The Gospel is real and not new to gg. The same can be said about many of their outreaches and missions work. I am more convinced than ever that chs saw potential for success in the business of church but the only way it could work was if he was not accountable for his sins. They say that one lie always leads to more lies. Well he started out OK but then he committed adultery in Wiscasset. He was young and knew if he came clean, he would loose his ministry. To preserve his ministry, he had to lie, so he did. But he did not just deny the affair happened. He did what he has always done since. He said his accusers were the evil liars and trashed their reputations. Was it about Hitler and his propaganda that it was said that if you tell a lie big enough, people will believe it because it is too big a deal to lie about? For anyone reading who might think there is any thing good about chs' legacy that is worth preserving, just remember he lied to us from day one. If anything, tbs/gg was just another story of a corrupt man who used the truth of God for his own purposes. Any truth he may have communicated existed before he said it. Elmer Gantry comes to mind. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1120 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
What many of us will want to deny now--especially in the light of so many posts--is that we were not just drawn by the message content but by CHS own personal charismatic aura of authority. He spoke as if he was right about everything. The red phone to the throne was in his room. Many cults are full of women. CHS had a knack for attracting a lot of men to the 'ministry'. He made the ones he could use well feel as if they were close to the secret campfire. He told them 'secrets' that weren't shared from the pulpit. Sitting on the 'stage' with CHS was an 'honor'. I remembered being invited up after having been visibly absent for over five years. Some of the guys up there had no clue who I was, others were very visibly nervous. I remember enjoying giving them that little sensation. Naughty me. | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 952 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
Right on LMAO!! The mixture of Christian truths with all the half truths and false teaching is exactly what made GGWO more dangerous and destructive than non-Christian cults. Many sincere Christians joined GGWO and have born genuine fruit for God's kingdom. Others have been saved there and learned major truths of the Christian faith. Carl Stevens cleverly used these very things to discredit his critics, make himself look genuine when he was not, and make anyone who disagreed with him or criticised him appear to be participating in satanic darkness and persecution against himself. Carl even used teachings of salvation by faith alone and eternal security to sucker people in. Then with all his false teachings, Carl attempted to lead the people astray to blindly trust and obey Carl and his insiders over God himself. Carl also used his twisted teachings and slander to turn people against each other to gain more control over them. Look at all the many people who lost friends and loved ones simply for leaving GGWO, questioning Carl and not following his every word. The self righteous Carl thought it was perfectly okay to use slanderous lies and pressuring tactics to get GGWO members to turn against those that leave GGWO and refuse to bow down to Carl, even when they're loved ones. How many marriages, bonds between loved ones and friendships have been destroyed by these divisive tactics. Then GGWO leaders lie even further by claiming these outcasted people are being divisive. All this when these GGWO hypocrites are the biggest dividers of all!!! It is so true that you can know a tree by its fruits. Same with GGWO. Carl, Schaller, Love, etc. can talk all they want, but do they do practice what they preach. Absolutely not!!! GGWO is a tree of rotten apples if there ever was one. They can talk all they want about salvation by grace, finished work, eternal security, etc. but the facts prove beyond any doubt that GGWO is not a church but a personality cult that misleads people, divides them, controls them and takes advantage of them. I'm not surprised one bit that the Stenger vote was overthrown by Carl and his inner circle. It was sickening to see but Carl would never allow a man like Stenger to succeed him because Stenger could have made some positive changes and repairs of this twisted ministry. Carl would never want that to happen. Carl wanted someone there that he could trust to continue his legacy and his own teaching there. So Schaller ended up at the pulpit. New boss, same as the old boss!! The legacy goes on. The control goes on. The lies go on. The control and manipulation go on. And more people get suckered in and taken advantage of. This is exactly what the whole Carl Stevens legacy stands for. That's exactly why the Carl Stevens legacy should NOT be preserved at all!!!! | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 341 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
We were always taught that a corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit. Chs often pointed to that teaching to defend himself against his accusers. He was basically saying, How could all these terrible things people are saying be true when the ministry is winning souls and going into all the world? The fact is there was a lot of good fruit in the ministry, but it was not carl's. It was actually the fruit of many hard working, well meaning Christians who were doing the real ministering. Chs just took credit for it all. | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 312 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 56.0.143.23 |
lmao, I love your posts. You really hit the nail on the head, you are so right, and you explain a lot of conflicting facts about the ministry so well | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 953 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
Right on LMAO. The self serving Carl Stevens took the glory for hard work and fruit he had nothing to do with. God was working through the well meaning Christians at GGWO instead of Carl. Carl wanted his own way while others were open to God and His ways so God used them instead of Carl. But Carl had to glorify himself in it all and insist that others praise and worship himself. Doesn't change the fact that GGWO is still a pastor worshipping personality cult where selfish insiders seek glory they are not entitled to. | ||
| rocketman Member Username: rocketman Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 4.156.81.186 |
Having not read the entire thread yet, I have one or two things to say about manipulation, mind control etc. I listened to "Throne Words" again a little while back. (yah, I have a couple of tapes... time will bring perspective to the listening). CHS quotes verse after verse of promises, the usual litany, and then after each one screams "Throne words!! Words from the Throne!!" and points and hollers and bounces on his heels. I remember that message. He was hot, he was trying to get us to understand "higher thoughts" etc. THEN... he spends 10 or 15 minutes telling us..."If you have a problem with the food in the cafeteria, you need throne words. You complain about your job doing dishes, you need throne words. you have a weight problem, you need throne words..." etc etc blah blah blah. He used the Bible to get us to understand that dissention and criticizm was ungodly. That if we were having issues with life... especially life in our campus and in our church functions, that the problem wasn't with the leadership, or the church, it was with us. He yelled, he hollered, he ridiculed, both in service and more so in raps and loose social settings, but the message was clear. "If your having troubles it's because you are not being a spiritual, or doctrinally sound person." THAT... yes THAT is mind control. Period. It is manipulation of the grossest sort. lmao- you chose it because to choose otherwise - or so you were told - WAS NOT CORRECT. Once you were in, that was the setting, that was the culture. My two bits. Later J | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 959 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
"He used the Bible to get us to understand that dissention and criticizm was ungodly" How true!!! This cultic, manipulative, guilt trip tactic has been used by Carl and his insiders to control people for many years. Carl used peoples' love for God against them by brainwashing them to think that to disagree with him was to disagree with God, to criticize Carl was to criticize God, to disobey Carl was to disobey God, and to leave Carl's 'ministry' was to rebel against God's will for your life. Carl knows people don't want to consciously, willfully disobey God, so he coercively trains them to think that anything less than total trust, devotion, obedience, etc. to Carl is just that, willfully disobeying God. This is classic, manipulative brainwashing and is a major reason GGWO is actually a cult. Carl wanted to retrain the people to be docile little sheep who thought that any thought that he didn't approve of was sin. All this to get people to put with anything he did to exploit, control and divide them thinking that to resist, avoid, complain against any of this wrongdoing was in itself very sinful against God. Carl turned these people into docile little robots that never question anything and are perfect targets for his exploitation. Now with Schaller, Scibelli, and Love continuing on Carl's legacy, this evil manipulation of people is still going on. Sad to think how many people are still attending three services a week in Baltimore under all this horrible bondage thinking they're in the best church in the world. What a delusion!!! | ||
| bjerwin Intermediate Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 496 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.32.219.65 |
Sidethorn and all, this really is a very wonderful thread. Since leaving the ministry and finally growing in Jesus, I find it so amazing that GGWO is so much like the Catholic Church. These churches totally take away the individual believers "priest-hood". They do not trust that believers can operate with all the fruits of the spirit (especially knowledge and wisdom) in walking their daily walks in God. I always loved Throne Words, and still read it, but never realized what Rocket said above. He took what would have been such a "hallmark" message, and a stand alone memorable message, and morphed it into his cultish means to an end. How lovely to be in churches, and with the family of God here on earth, where we are taught the word, without the teachers manipulating the message for their own cause. Thanks for this thread. | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 151 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
BJ, I loved what Rocket Man said above. His insights are always very good! Jerry Graz posted a great three part analysis of throne words back in September. Some folks love to pick on Catholics and their doctrine of papal infallibility. That rarely invoked doctrine only claims infallibility in those isolated instances when the pope is speaking ex cathedra or -- from the throne... John | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 961 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Carl and his leadership take away peoples' priesthoods and individuality to control them and use them for their own selfish purposes. They refuse to trust believers to be able to grow in knowledge and wisdom apart from their group of approved pastor-teachers working under them. They really can't stand believers that think for themselves and learn for themselves and learn by other means than the GGWO pastor-teachers. That's because they know they can't control and use them. Anyone that disagrees with them or thinks apart from them is viewed as a threat. Carl and company have their own man made kingdom that they want to run their own way. They only trust those they can control and who will blindly set aside their priesthoods and let their GGWO pastor-teacher be the priest in their lives. They do not trust God to run things and they want to run everything their own way. No room for free thinking believers with their own priesthoods in such a man made kingdom of bondage. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3366 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.30 |
Something Rocket said that caught my eye is, "the message was clear. "If your having troubles it's because you are not being a spiritual, or doctrinally sound person."" That completely goes against what the scriptures say. Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: :17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. If as Carl insinuates,we suffer because of a lack of spirituality then where is there place for the Lord to grow us through adversity and trials? It simply doesn't fit what the Word of God says. Is any one surprised though? } | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3367 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.30 |
Also, does it need to be mentioned that God uses discipline on His own children? How many people think that's pleasant every time? No Carl, if you're having troubles,you're alive on planet earth. God's sun shines on the good and on the evil. Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. How would Carl square these verses with his contradictory theology? } | ||
| j_graz Member Username: j_graz Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.127.179.23 |
Then, the stamp of approval on one's life or ministry is not neccessarily "good things" happening. "Look at the fruit" doesn't cut it, if there's problems when you "look at the Bible!" The Word of God is always the standard of one's life. | ||
| hey_you Member Username: hey_you Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.152.101.64 |
Great thread everyone. If you "Grew up" in the ministry like myself, it was even harder for you to know and comprehend that there is more to this world than GG. I will always liken GG to the Matrix. Everyone is "plugged in", nodding, agreeing, going about their everyday lives, centering them around a church, and for the most part not Jesus. Such a sheltered life I had. When I tried to go out of that bubble, I was pretty much just pulled back into it to be used as a pawn for their spritual mind games. It wasn't until I found about the Alan Lang affair, and all that accompanied it along with Sandy Cove, and all did I start to have the Blinders removed. If you're just passing through here and are confused, hurt, lost, but still "In", I beg you to please research the actual history of the ministry, read the CRI report, read the Sandy Cove documents, and think things out. I pray God will give you the wisdom to understand that our lives are to be centered around "Jesus" and Jesus only. Don't confuse Jesus with church. They are different, not one in the same as we were all taught. | ||
| bjerwin Intermediate Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 497 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.32.219.65 |
Amen everyone. what hey you said If you're just passing through here and are confused, hurt, lost, but still "In", I beg you to please research the actual history of the ministry, read the CRI report, read the Sandy Cove documents, and think things out. I pray God will give you the wisdom to understand that our lives are to be centered around "Jesus" and Jesus only. Don't confuse Jesus with church. They are different, not one in the same as we were all taught. is so very right. If there are those here that are still "IN"... Jesus is so very beautiful, the Word of God so very true. Try it, you will like it.... the way Jesus wanted it and taught it to be. Great thread. | ||
| isabella Advanced Member Username: isabella Post Number: 712 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.31.11.230 |
Who is he? He sold bread and cupcakes to women who invited him in and gave him some coffee and talked about his bread and other things. He noticed how they would confide in him. They mentioned their husbands and children and told him about personal matters. He was ‘amazed’ that they would speak about these things to a perfect stranger, but he liked it quite a bit because it made him feel influential and powerful. He knew that they actually thought that he cared more about them than their own husbands did. Then one day Carl H. Stevens, Jr., took a course called “CACHE”. (to be continued) | ||
| isabella Advanced Member Username: isabella Post Number: 713 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.31.11.230 |
'What's-Up', said: (see John Collin's post above on 11/30..3 Part Analysis of Throne Words) "I remember in Lenox, "Pastor" would sometimes randomly be walking around the campus, say on a Saturday morning on the softball field or near the snack bar with another pastor and maybe one or two others. "He would stop to talk to someone, and then one or two more would go over, and then more and more, and soon you had a whole group of fifty or more people and "Pastor" would give a little impromptu rap." The people nearest him could hear what he was saying and the rest would linger on the outskirts, craning their necks...and hoping to catch enough to be a part of the latest anointed revelation, or maybe just a bit of juicy gossip (given of course for our own protection and warning). If you happened to come too late or missed it completely, one of the lucky ones would tell you "Pastor just gave a rap..it was aMAZing" and you would feel like you had missed the second coming itself. It all seems so ridiculous now. We were acting like teenage "Carl groupies" and we could not even see it. I am ashamed to say that it affected my family life and stole time from me that I can never get back." Every Friday night, we would drive for an hour & a half to get to Framingham. Sometimes, I thought I was going to die. I worked in the city and lived in the 'body-house'....forty miles away. O.K. Then! Friday, after work, I'd get back to the 'Body-House' at around 6PM. The people are waiting at the door for me. They're waiting because it's Friday night and we're going to Framingham. They're waiting for me because they're going there....in my car. I go in to pee and splash a little water on my face and we're off. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah... Now, it's 10:30PM. We're leaving the 'Charlotte Dunning School'. We're going to get into the car and drive for another 2-1/2 hours, back to the Body House..... We're going home! ...NOT! All of a sudden, one of the people in the back seat, says: "Pastor is going to the DONUT SHOP!" You know the rest....unless you don't. Love this thread.... | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 320 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 71.233.128.194 |
OH Isabella, I do know who you are now..... | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 342 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
On Friday, December 01, 2006 hey_you said he/she grew up in gg. I am going to assume that the person was born in a gg family and went to their school and participated in all the youth programs of the church growing up. All the beliefs and convictions he/she formed growing up were formed in the gg system. It leads me to question what was behind the "blinders" and how did it get there? | ||
| isabella Advanced Member Username: isabella Post Number: 714 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.31.11.230 |
Yes, What's Up, you do, but do you like me? Yes? or No?...Don't say No! | ||
| sister_mary Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 87.94.50.74 |
I also heard the tape "Throne Words" in Finland Taasjaervi. Thomas Schaller had a shelf that was full of Carl Stevens taped sermons and he listened to them and we all listened them. Thomas slept only 5 hours at night and rose early to memorize the Scriptures and when he preached, he never looked his text from the paper and cited the Bible verses by heart from the right places and correctly and spoke Throne words to us (little ducklings) and how much we admired Thomas and his neat wife Lisa! We looked up to him because of his skill in memorizing the Bible and sleeping so little to be good in teaching us! But my aunt: when she heard the tape Throne Words, she was furious and the process of my disaffiliation started. I pity Thomas and Lisa now: they are duped, not me, who saw the red flags in the first metres... and now I have gone it through... My professor at the university knows my background totally, whatsup, and never has said to me that I need psychological help or that I am a freak. My professors have helped me to recover and maybe I am a member of the academic illuminate today... you never know...  | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 322 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 71.233.128.194 |
Isabella, of course I like you..I have no reason not to (but why would it matter to you that much anyway?) I do remember long ago when I heard you were passing out copies of the CRI reports I did not like you very much...we all thought you were so "off" and deceived. But that was when I was brainwashed, or was it duped? You never were as indoctrinated as most of us, since you never went to bible school or Lenox. Now of course, I see what you did quite differently | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1148 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
time for what sister mary calls the "moisture kiss?" | ||
| hey_you Member Username: hey_you Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.152.101.66 |
Lmao, I'm not sure I fully understand what you are asking. Can you be a little more clear with your question about what was behind the "blinders". | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I am basically wondering in the context of this thread about brainwashing: Where does someone like you who was raised in the system get the discernment to get out when all you know is what the system taught? I respect the opinions of those who think they or others were brain washed at gg, but I am personally very sceptical about it and I believe that when people who are indoctrinated from the day they are born can walk away without deprogramming, it weakens the brainwashing theory. You obviously had the ability to think for yourself and form convictions that enabled you to see gg for what it was and leave. | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 962 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
Some people were completely brainwashed like many people attending those services in Baltimore at present. Some were partially brainwashed and some, not at all. A number of people were simply duped by GGWO thinking it was an evangelical mainstream fundamentalist church ministry only to find out later on it was something else. Others were brainwashed to various degrees and fortunately some saw some of the warning signs after a while and just got up and left. Then there are others who were so very brainwashed by GGWO to totally depend on it and never question it and can't see those warning signs at all. These people desperately need help like deprogramming to see the warning signs and leave. Different peoples' situations are different. Some people can see the light on their own and leave while others need the help of others in various ways. May God help those still duped or brainwashed by GGWO to set them free. | ||
| isabella Advanced Member Username: isabella Post Number: 715 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.31.11.230 |
What's: It doesn't matter very much. I used to say that to the teenagers in the Body-House....I thought you were someone I knew, but now I don't. I'm glad you like me though, it's always good to be liked... You must have been pre-Gloucester House..that's my guess. Anyway, I tried to pass out the CRI report but, by the time I was going to do that, everyone in the church was gone....poor me. I did get to tell the pastor my opinion. He listened and he said he would pray about it. I think he did because he is gone from there.. I don't really know what happened to him. No, What's Up, it doesn't matter whether you like me or not. I don't know who you are. I liked/loved all the people in the Bible Speaks, and if you know me, you know that. I like people...it's really all we have. As for the question of whether you were brain-washed or duped, I don't think it matters. These guys (pastors) have NO integrity. They (TBS,GGWO,IAGM,IGAM,GM...etc.) have no dignity. This includes Stevens, first and foremost. I'm sorry he's in that condition, but 'it's 'not my fault'...(another thing I used to say to the teenagers....) He has no dignity except for the dignity allowed by others...out of the goodness of their hearts. Too bad he can't take it with him. Love to you, (no big wet kiss) What's-Up! Isabella | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1149 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
I like people...it's really all we have. | ||
| louise_connolly Advanced Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 606 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 |
If I spent over 20 years in the cult, it would be way too painful to admit I was brainwahsed. On the other hand, If I spent over 20 years in the cult I would rather be brainwashed. Is it possible for someone to stay duped for so long or was one just partaking in the con? If one wishes to keep the con going under a different umbrella of course they could only be just duped. Let the duping continue and pretend it is all about Jesus not all about making a living using Jesus. Carl Stevens would recite some pile of goobly gook and the audience would yell, 'Wow' or 'Amazing'. I remember listening later to tapes of Carl Stevens and hearing myself laughing. It was humiliating to say the least. How could one in their right mind sit and listen to that crap day in and day out? | ||
| aferrill New member Username: aferrill Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.64.110.1 |
Some groups are subtle, some are not. We slowly start to change our thinking and before we know it, we believe the crap they're teaching. In the counseling I've received from cult experts, I've learned how and what they do to us. Doesn't matter if we're smart or not - they have ways of getting to us. | ||
| louise_connolly Advanced Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 607 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 |
I was finishing off the night perusing the two cult boards when I read Jim Kennedy's post. The link is pasted below. I am not sure if it will come out exactly at the post but the post is dated 12/4 11:43am. It is not only apropos to this topic but well worth reading. http://z10.invisionfree.com/DiscussGGWO/index.php?showtopic=210&st=15 | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 323 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 71.233.128.194 |
Isabella, you do know me...and I was not pre-Gloucester house, I was around later.....I was told you were passing out that report...and being a good bible speaker, I always believed rumors | ||
| hey_you Member Username: hey_you Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.152.101.67 |
Lmao, Like Sidethorn said earlier, I think its different for each person. I think there are people who seriously are brain-washed because they have been so immersed in GG for soo long that it becomes all they know. When I think of being "duped", a magician comes to mind. He will get in front of a crowd say something amazing or pull off some mysterious disappearing act and all of the audience says, "Wow, ooh, and ahh". Meanwhile, the whole time, his assistant is backstage creating smoke and moving mirrors around. For the brain-washing part, I think a hpnotist would be a good comparison. This guy actually gets the crowd to repeat what the hypnotist wants them to believe. The person who is hypnotized does have a choice to participate in the act, but once they do accept, they lose control of their free will and are taught and programmed to think as "ONE". For me, however, I compare it more to the magician. Do I think I was brain-washed? No, not really, but was I duped. Absolutely. Through the help of other friends who were leaving, finding out the actual truth of events that happened, prayer, and reading books by other authors, I started to uncover the mystery for myself. I felt as though I knew a secret that I couldn't share with anyone, but wanted to share with everyone. I was afraid of what others would think of me. While you are deciding to leave, your mind goes through a battlefield. You think, "all of my friends are here and they don't have any problems with what is happening in the church, but I just can't stay and continue to ultimately agree w/ GG. I wouldn't be surprised if many in GG, had the same thoughts, but were afraid to speak up because of fear and intimidation. Have I received counseling? To some degree, yes, but more in the form of what I like to call group therapy. I took time off after leaving and waited to find a place that I felt comfortable. | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Great posts hey_you and everyone else. I obviously need to rethink my position regarding brainwashing. | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 345 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
In Jim Kennedy's post linked above, I read the following statement of his which he attributed to a book he read: "Although it has been proven that your mind cannot be controlled by another against your will, it most certainly can be controlled if the will cooperates." Since I did not read the book, I have no way of knowing what has or has not been proven, but I completely agree with the statement. If I thought that the general consensus was that brainwashing can only occur when one's will cooperates, I would agree that brainwashing is a real problem. It has been my experience that many believe brainwashing over-rules the will. A cult expert told me that chs' messages had the subtle ability to brainwash me even if I was not paying attention. I cannot accept that. | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 965 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
The GGWO life begins with the duping. This whole "ministry" works by deception and counterfeiting fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. People who join GGWO often think they're in a healthy church at first only to get mislead later. Carl whipped up a very deadly brew of truths, half truths and outright lies to suck in sincere Christians and lead them astray to serve the GGWO leadership instead of God. Enough preaching about eternal security, salvation by faith, Christ's finished work at the cross was present to attract Christians, make them comfortable, and get them to start lowering their defenses. Then the repeated subtle twisted teachings overemphasising pastoral authority, never saying anything negative about anything or anyone, never questioning anything, geographical will and the rest of it start to reprogram the people unless they're very alert and discerning. Its very easy to be too trusting of preachers who put on a good act and say all the right Christian words and phrases at just the right times. Carl and his inner circle were very good con artists that exploited peoples' vulnerabilities to their advantage. Thats the duping part. Then these guys repeatedly throw out rebuttals against any dissenting viewpoints against their own to reprogram the people. Over and over again, the dissenting viewpoints are refuted and replaced with the GGWO approved viewpoints with very persuasive arguments. This is where the brainwashing begins!! Carl actively discouraged independant thought and taught the people to depend on him to think for them. He mislead them to think that was God's will. All part of the delegated authority thing. People were led to believe that Carl's every word was God's. To question Carl was to question God. To disobey Carl was to disobey God. To leave Carl and his "ministry" was to leave God's will and incur divine judgement against oneself. This is where Carl uses peoples' love for God against them to ensnare them into the servitude of himself. This also involves reprogramming of people or brainwashing them. Sad how many people regularly attending those services in Baltimore have such a distorted view of reality that they cant just walk out the door and join a different church that won't get into their heads to reprogram them into the servitude of men and thinking that ever leaving is such a terrible sin that they dare not ever leave. GGWO duped a lot of people and brainwashed quite a few as well. | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Duped? Deceived? Brain washed? I think a lot of it depends on who's defining which word. Within a few weeks after I first became affiliated with a Bible Speaks church (in Rhode island in 1978), I started learning that there were points of contention between them and many other evangelical churches. Over the years I heard many things, from many sources, about BS/GG in general, and Carl Stevens in particular, which should have been a wake up call telling me that something was amiss in the organization and its leadership. At the same time, I also learned the group's spin on these issues. I did not personally research these issues when they arose, and instead simply accepted what I was told by the church leaders. Psychologists recognize many conditions which help explain how seemingly intelligent people end up making foolish and staying with many such groups. For example: Denial --a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness (minimization) or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial Doublethink --an integral concept in George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, and is the act of holding two contradictory beliefs simultaneously and fervently believing both. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink Cognitive dissonance --the tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance Groupthink --a mode of thought whereby individuals intentionally conform to what they perceive to be the consensus of the group. Groupthink may cause the group... to make bad or irrational decisions which each member might individually consider to be unwise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink | ||
| guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner Member Username: guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner Post Number: 62 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.219.168 |
John, most people are influenced by Group Think. If everyone is saying aaawwwsooomee, what an anointing, everyone is doing outreach, etc...then it is easier to ask inwardly, what is wrong with me? I need to change my behavior, I need to change my affirmations..and, we became drones. We do this to fit in. Until ,the dissonance was resounding. Without group think most things that do happen (both good and bad) would never get done. | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 346 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Sidethorn's description of gg's over-emphasized and false doctrines above along with a few that were left out including not touching God's anointed, the curse for leaving and marking indicate to me that all of gg's false teaching is for the purpose of protecting chs from criticism. They either prevent the congregation from listening to negative information or they destroy the credibility of those who have the negative information. | ||
| rocketman Member Username: rocketman Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 4.154.202.206 |
The group mind, group think, what do they call it... peer pressure always exists... we know this from Kindy Garten... and we learn it from teachers. "sit it a row, learn your lessons, get your grade... " etc etc. The problem is when what we are teaching has "life or death consequences" or "Afterlife and death consequences" Who WOULDN'T want to go to heaven? Who wouldn't want someone ELSE to go to heaven? Especially if you believe that to not go there is to suffer the unbelievable tortures that typifies Hell? Who wouldn't want to help the world and all it's people??? So Then... you find someone who gives you a philosophy, a belief system that gives you a leg up on this noble mission, wouldn't you want to know more? This is where the duping takes place. Sure, they teach what you believe.... but... not only are you a Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Communist, who truly believes... but you believe (and here's what tips the scale) YOU ARE BETTER for some unexplicable reason, and you are more than others, your view is MORE right... if only EVERYONE saw truth the way YOU do... Once you believe that you are more right than people of other understandings you can pretty much teach anything, because your people will swallow it with very little criticism. What do you believe that makes you more right than the other 6 Billion people in this world? It goes to many abuses in many ages. People will convince followers to kill other people for scant resourcse (food, land, water, etc) and also for differences in thier own world view. (N. Ireland-1980's, Holy Land - Crusades, Germany-1940's, Iraq-Sunni vs Shiites - present day) ... oh... and they'll easily justify it at the time. When you believe that you can abuse others, because you're more right than them, brother, you are brainwashed... or just plain outright deceptive, if your the one who Knows what your doing. the only exception in this rant that I can see is if you are attacked by someone else a.k.a. the US in WWII. I'm all for working together, helping one another with no ulterior motive, being the kind of person that would make a compassionate Christ say, "well done, etc..." I'll take that over circling the wagons and keeping the "infidels" outside the doors. But that's just me  Later, J | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 156 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 63.160.106.254 |
Jeff, Good points! Interesting thoughts. (Did make me wonder though how the average Iraqi citizen might feel about good ol' Uncle Sam now that we've killed well over 1/2 million of them in order to "free" them since we are "more right".) Jeff -- did we use to ride the short bus together to Georgeport? With Shane driving and preaching "throne words"? John | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 326 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
"the short bus"....isnt that for special needs students? I know you are referring to the ministry "Taxi"...I do remember it well, and I also remember Shane McHugh and his throne words recitations too | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1165 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
the most deadly 'belief system' in the 20th century and perhaps for all time has been... atheism: try counting the millions who perished under Hitler, Stalin, the gulags, etc. the most difficult war will be between moral relativism that says "you can believe however you want as long as you're sincere" trying to fight against islamofascism which says "the trees will shout out there is a Jew (or Christian) hiding behind me, come and kill him! After all, the 9/11 boys were just "acting according to how they believed". | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 825 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.91.172.42 |
Kind of a simplistic view of moral relativism, Jim. The typical fundamentalist view is that morals never change no matter what the situation or time is. Is it OK to kill people over a disagreement? Let's see. If my government disagrees badly enough with another government, then it can order me to go kill the "enemy" to gently convince them to come around to the "right" way of thinking. (And if we conduct war the way God wants us to, in accordance with 1 Samuel 15:2-3, our "problems" in Iraq and elsewhere would be over!)Unless you're some girly man who's upset by a few dead babies, it's legal and MORAL. If I disagree with the radio station you're listening to bad enough and I express my disagreement by incinerating you with a flame thrower, then I'll likely end up in jail because it's illegal and NOT MORAL. So, it's very simplistic and not true to suggest it's always OK to kill people over a disagreement.That's just one example. There are very few things that are morally absolute, which means they are OK to do at all times. It's OK to have sex with your wife. Try doing it on the 50 yard line at half time during a Cowboys game. Slavery was OK in Biblical times. It was morally acceptable and definitely endorsed by God. Try going out and buying someone these days (other than a politician or pastor). The Bible explicitly says if your son is disobedient, then the only thing to do is to take him to the outskirts of town and stone him to death (Deut. 21:18-21). Try pulling that one today! No wonder our youth are so out of control! We've abandoned our MORAL compass: God! Next thing you know, we'll be allowing women having their period to go to church in clear violation of Leviticus 15: 19-28! Being the moral and upright man that I am, I ALWAYS ask a woman if she's having her period because I sure don't want to engage in moral relativism. Ignorance of the law is no excuse and the Bible is very clear on this point. People, including you, Jim, rightfully and correctly engage in moral relativism each and every day. Moral relativism has become a darling term of conservatives and fundamentalists. People rarely try to understand what it really means. | ||
| hodeuon Advanced Member Username: hodeuon Post Number: 591 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.160.68.34 |
Boss, I think your argument would be stronger if you took progressive revelation into account. God has expanded our view of Him as history has progressed. There are fewer laws now than in Moses' day. For example, Jesus' teaching and His words to Peter in the vision in Acts 10-11 show that all foods are clean. But while the number of laws has gone down, God's expectation have gone up - as shown by Jesus' teaching on the commandments in the Sermon on the Mount. Today, "an eye for an eye" is looked down on as a barbaric standard. Back then, when standard procedure was "for an eye, your life and that of as many of your clan as I can kill", "an eye for an eye" was down right enlightened. Throughout the Bible, God seems to put reforming individual hearts logically prior to reforming society. Once individuals are following Him, then He helps them with the society. Otherwise there'd be no grace, just achieving of certain societal standards. Hodeuon | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 826 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.91.147.34 |
Houdeuon, Would you comment on the stoning of children, Biblical warfare, and, one of my favorites, the woman having her period. Oh yes, and slavery. And one more thing, people with deformities (blindness, etc.) not being allowed to enter the temple. Thanks, Phil | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1178 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
Boss, Boss, BOSS! You old potatohead! Moral relativism isn't equivalent to ethics which are applicaple to the situation (which differs from what some might call situational ethics). If a child is drowning in a fountain in the middle of a lawn with "Do Not Walk On The Grass" signs surrounding the fountain--my respect for private property is secondary to my respect for human life. Let's say that my buddy Phil is hiding out in my basement from people who want to kill him by stoning. These folks burst in and say, "Don't lie to us, where is he?" I don't even blink and say, "You just missed him, he ran out the back, quick and you'll catch him!" Again my respect for the 6th commandment is greater than my fear of offending the 9th. This is not moral relativism--it is just wisdom. Moral relativism says there is no truth but my own truth, and I get to make it up as I go along. There is no right but what is right for me, without any higher standard to which I refer. What is right for me (like killing somebody, say who is an abortionist because I believe abortion is murder--and by the way I really condemn this taking the LAW into one's own hands) is not necessarily right for you. As far as your OT comments go Phil, as usual you have no concept of what is fulfilled in Christ and what is not. You confuse, as you tend to do--the moral basis of the ceremonial law with the ceremonial law given to the theocratic NATION of Israel and not to the church of Christ. Most of the outward cleanliness was a type of the righteousness required of God's people--God requires perfection and Christ finally fulfills this and imputes it to his own. While I believe that ethics are to be applied to the situation at hand--which requires wisdom of understanding sometimes which commandment is greater and that the commandments are an eternal standard for all human behavior for as long as we inhabit the earth. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1179 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
Repeat: The deadliest philosophy in the 20th century is atheism. | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 827 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.91.172.36 |
I certainly am confused. Leviticus 18:22 is often used as THE standard to condemn homosexuality. Check out the signs at any anti-gay rally. You'd wish you had a dollar for every one you see. Unless I'm mistaken, it's the same Leviticus taken from the same Bible that says women having their period are unclean, women that have given birth are unclean (unclean longer for having female babies), etc. Now I'm no apologist for homosexuality, but I don't condemn these folks. I guess what I'm getting at is that if a person is going to quote Leviticus to condemn the "gay agenda", they should probably take heed of the whole of Leviticus. (Being the a-hole that I am, I told a Baptist minister during a "conversation" that if he eats shrimp, he ought to perform oral sex on me. Strangely, the conversation became a little more "lively".) As far as atheism being the most deadly philosophy, I can buy that if you're talking about life after death. I might have slept through this part of history class, but I don't seem to remember the Atheist Inquisition, the Atheist Crusades (convert or die!), atheists defending American slavery as being Non-God's Holy plan, atheists flying planes into buildings for 72 hotties in the afterlife, atheists and agnostics blowing each other up in Ireland, atheists blowing up abortion clinics, atheists condemning homosexuality from the whatever they condemn that stuff from while playing intramural butt-darts with a male prostitute, and on and on. I have yet to see atheists chasing people down on the street and demanding to know where you're going to spend eternity. I haven't had an atheist knock on my door four Sundays in a row until I threatened to call the police. Not one atheist has ever asked me for money to further their agenda. No atheist has ever told me that I either have to love someone or spend an eternity in unbearable agony. No atheist has ever told me that they speak to some higher power every day (that I can't hear because I'm not annointed) as a means to bang my wife or underage daughter or son. I'm not trying to convince anyone, even myself, that atheism is the answer for anything. I just wonder how you can say atheism is the most dangerous philosophy. If you want to talk about dangerous to my health philosophy, atheism is pretty low on my list. I may have my head in the sand (or somewhere else....), but I don't worry too much about atheist zealots building a dirty bomb to get rid of the infidels. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1180 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
Did you miss the Nazi atheists murdering six (give or take a few) million Jews, Christians, Gypsies, and yes, homosexuals? Did you miss the millions of Chinese,Vietnamese, Laotian, and Cambodians slain by the Communist atheists in the latter part of the 20th century? Did you miss the millions slain under Soviet Communism during the 'administration' of every one of their so-called leaders from the 'Revolution' onward? These guys made the crusaders look like a load of daisy-plucking metrosexuals. Wake up, sunshine! You definitely slept through 20th century history class! As far as Leviticus goes one has to be able to distinguish what is ceremonial and what is not (you are on the not able side)yet again there is plenty of NEW TESTAMENT scripture to assure us that heterosexuality is what the Almighty had in mind. Ask yourself this question when reading the Older Testament: "Where's Jesus in this?" If the commandment is reiterated in Christ's commandment to love God and one another then it is still in play. While you may not be worried about the atheists building a dirty bomb to get rid of the infidels you may want to start thinking about what might happen if the atheists SELL the zealots a dirty bomb to get rid of the infidels. Or haven't you read that Kim Jung Il and Mah-(hacks up phlegm)-moud are tight with one another. Again, wake the fekk up, and stop being so damned simplistic. | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 828 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.91.172.42 |
Nazis were not required to be atheists, as the communists were/are. Further, the North Koreans, Bolshiviks, etc., don't identify themselves as atheists. Nope, they are communists, fascists, etc., who don't believe in God. Communism and Nazism are the doctrines they subscribe to. Atheism is just a small part. Sure, non-Christians have done a lot of bad things, but I think just as much as been done in the name of Christianity. Notice that I haven't just limited myself to genocide. I've included sexual favors, stealing money, hate crimes, etc. The Nazi and Communist atrocities were not done in the name of atheism. They were done in the name of Communist or Nazi ideology. The Crusades and the Inquisition were done in Jesus' name as an official act of Christianity. The official line for these atrocities was that it was the Will of God. When I talk of atheists not making a dirty bomb, etc., I'm talking about the normal everyday people that you might work with who happen to be atheists or agnostics that do not belong to the Communist or Nazi party. These people don't, as a group, kill people. The Nazis and the Communists didn't do these horrifying things to further atheism, they did it to further the State. The Inquisition and the Crusades, however, had as their primary goal the killing of infidels, i.e. those that disagreed with the church. I'm also not aware of atheists using atheism (saying there is no God) to get in somoeone's pants or take their money. I'm not referring to a UFO cult or Scientologists. Both of those are religions. The proponents of these warped religions claim higher or gnostic knowledge that is unavailable to the non-annointed. Atheism is the last thing you would use to to seperate people from their money because they don't have anything sexy like the "annointing" to offer us great unwashed. And by the way, bringing up the Commies and Nazis sounds like the kid who got in trouble and then says another kid did something worse. | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 829 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.91.172.42 |
Further, take a good long look around this web site. All of it. I don't expect anyone to look at every post, but take some time to look at the other threads. Yep, there's an atheism thread or two. Read some of the posts there. Yes, there is a lot of criticism of atheism. I can distill that criticism into one or two issues that are very closely related. Why do people hate atheists and call them dangerous? It's because they're not Christians! Oh, there's a few conspiracy threads about what a huge threat atheism is because some schmuck in Hooterville USA doesn't want a nativity scene in the Department of Motor Vehicles which in the average Christian's mind is a DEATH THREAT AGAINST CHRISTIANS and a big case of PERSECUTION AGAINST CHRISTIANS! Oh yeah, there's the DEADLY THREAT OF TEACHING EVOLUTION which again is the WORST CASE OF PERSECUTION SINCE THE ROMANS FED CHRISTIANS TO THE LIONS!!!! Where are all the threads about sexual abuse, stealing of money, cutting babies arms off, selling of houses, mind control, etc.? Once you discard a couple of Scientology, UFO cult and Eastern religion threads, you're left with literally hundreds of threads in which people are getting screwed, literally and figuratively, in the name of Jesus. I'm not saying that being a Christian automatically makes someone bad, but it sure seems strange that the vast, VAST majority of these abuse threads have one thing in common: Christianity. It's certainly not a scientific theory, but I still maintain that if I was a bigger dirt bag than I am today (is that possible? Discuss on another thread.....) all I would have to do is claim that Jesus appeared to me and told me that whatever came out of my mouth was the word of God. It's sad and it's terrible, but I'm certain that I could start a "successful" Christian cult within two years. By successful, I mean that it would be my only source of income, I would have a palatial home, and I would have a harem of women way out of my league. Check out all the success stories on FACTNET. Try pulling that stunt with pure atheism. By pure atheism, I mean by just saying there is no God and that you're starting an organization that says there's no God. You'll get some scientists and some professors. Maybe an ex-Christian or two. Try prying their money or their pants off purely in the name of atheism. For something that's supposed to be so evil, it sure makes it hard to harvest any fruit! About all you'll accomplish is upsetting a bunch of Christians, Jews, and Muslims. The real money and power is in church! Sad but true. People TRUST you! After all, you're speaking for GOD! TRUST GOD, and TRUST GOD's MAN (or woman. Crime is equal opportunity.) | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1181 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
Communism, just to quote its authors views theism and Christianity in particular as "the opiate of the masses". Hitler was a follower of the philosophy of Freidrich Neitzsche who in many of his writings included the phrase "Gott is tot" or God is dead. Both of these philosophies do not exist without their atheism--because their view of humanity requires it. It is NOT merely as you put it "a small part" of their thinking. For Neitzsche, relinquishing belief in God would lead to a new creativity for humanity--hence Hitler's idea of a perfect race of white folks. When communists do away with God, they do away with his commandment not to steal which by the way in most of the world establishes the private ownership of property and the means of production. The crusades are long past and in my twisted view were the sins--along with the inquisition--of the Roman Catholic Church (that is not to say that the Protestants were perfect). The communists and fascists are yet in our midst and they today in great numbers attended a conference held by the resident whackjob in Iran who contends that the holocaust was a myth. What a wonderful mix of islamic fascism and atheistic fascism! And David Duke was there to represent the whackjobs of the Klan. By the way, all those bones in the 'killing fields' in Cambodia belong to people who in large part disagreed with the atheistic philosphy of the state. The Gulags were full of 'unbelievers' and Christians as were the cesspool prisons of the Balkan communist states. Making the 'crusades' comparable to these atrocities is just simply inane. Communists and nazis had their 'infidels' as well and being unable to admit that is like covering your eyes in broad daylight and saying "No, it is nighttime!" As for threads on FN, this is a small neighborhood. As far as most cults being aberrations of Christianity--well, DUH!--most counterfeits are of the REAL thing. If I see a $41 bill, I don't get all excited about taking it to the bank! Fake Christianity will always compromise Christ in some way--in the gospel, in the humanity, in the deity, in the unity of the Godhead. In Jesus Christ there is both "truth and grace" and most error occurs when one is sacrificed for the sake of the other. Moralists have truth without grace and need to earn their salvation. Relativists offer grace without truth and makes God a deaf old codger who could care less what you do, he just 'lurrves yah' no matter what you do or what you think or say. Pure atheism has been getting guys laid for years. That's what the 60s were all about. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1182 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
Since YOU brought up the crusades... let me be really bombastic and antagonistic and add that WHAT IF... in light of the current situation in that wackoland called the middle east... THE CRUSADES HAD ACTUALLY SUCEEDED? WOULD THAT BE SUCH A TERRIBLY BAD AND HORRIBLE THING IN YOUR LITTLE WORLD? Thank God for the Battle of Tours and the other HAMMER Charles Martel! Stand by and watch, there'll be another one like it sooner or later. | ||
| listener Member Username: listener Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 199.46.198.232 |
Not being the most complete student of the crusades, other than todays "fast facts" version of the Crusades, I don't have a lot of information. But after hearing some pretty lengthy versions of why there is fighting in the former Yugoslavia, I suspect that there were any number of reasons why some went off to fight the Crusades other than just to get rid of some potential rivals to European thrones. On another note, I assume that there is general knowledge of the size of the world sex trade here, and that we are not going to assume that Christianity is responsible for a majority of it. Or of child abuse, etc. | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 830 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 168.12.253.66 |
What if the Crusades succeeded? Wow, another theocracy in place! Shoot, if it happened, and they could get Pat Robertson to head it up, there sure wouldn't be any trouble at all. All trouble would be CRUSHED! The problems in the Middle East are mostly due to the creation of a Jewish state by the British using land occupied by others. It would be like the US evicting everyone from Puerto Rico to make a "homeland" for the Native Americans. It's pretty easy to be a hero when you're giving away someone else's land. You can imagine how perturbed you would be if a foriegn government kicked YOU off the land you'd been living on for a few hundred years because the Koran said the land used to belong to Arabs. But I digress. I still don't see atheism ALONE getting someone laid, enabling someone to steal money, or start a cult. There's no special revelation (like Carl's), there's nothing elite about it, and there sure ain't nothing sexy about it. People got laid in the 60's because of the drugs and the new youth culture. I don't remember "there is no God" being a battle cry of the hippies. Sure, some hippies didn't believe in God, but that wasn't their main doctrine. Shoot, I think a bunch of hippies formed up under this dude named Carl Stevens. Again, show me any organization that primarily exists solely for atheism that has ever taken up arms to make people convert to atheism, like the Crusades did for Christianity. Show me an instance where someone flew a plane into a building or strapped explosives to their body for the purpose of showing that there is no God. Show me someone who drowned their children or cut the arms off their baby because the God That Wasn't There told them to. Show me someone that says "give me your money, the women only sleep with me, and obey every word I say" solely because they believe God does not exist. There are Muslims that do it. There are UFO cult freaks that do it. And there are many, many Christian cults/groups/churches that do it. The atheist has no higher power/gnosticism/space alien to derive false power from. There's no mystery to an atheist. All they can promise is NOTHING! They have nothing to hide behind! "There is no God." What's sexy or mysterious about that? Let's look at an example that we all know. If Carl Stevens had said "I am Carl, the Great and Powerful Bread Salesman! Tremble before my dinner rolls and whole wheat goodness! Sell everything! Every word that comes out of my mouth is POPPIN' FRESH, RICH IN FIBER, and has 12 VITAMINS AND MINERALS!" How many would have followed him? But put God behind him, and look out! It's a proven formula! Benny Hinn, Carl, Oral Roberts, you name 'em! When you speak for God, people listen. People that speak for God KNOW STUFF that you and I don't know. God is too complex for the GREAT UNWASHED to understand! "I'm Carl/Benny/Oral. Let me break the big SCARY MYSTERY down for you. God told me just last night and if you don't listen, you'll go to HELL!" Nobody wants to sleep with the bread man. What's a few hoagie rolls compared to HIGHER KNOWLEDGE, THRONE WORDS, RHEMAS, and the rest? What's the bread man going to threaten you with? "If you don't listen to me, you'll be irregular and won't get your iron! BOO!" | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1183 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
"There is no God." What's sexy or mysterious about that? This is the reason you are a such a fekkin potatohead! You don't know how to finish a sentence--"There is no God" is not all there is to atheism. What atheism does is put MAN at the top of the food chain, man is either positively the hope of all the earth or the blame for all the woes (which is partially true--but not because there is a race called 'humans' but because humans are fallen!). What atheism does is make humanity the highest possible standard for human behavior. Communism, nazism, and fascism are impossible philosophies without atheism--they are merely at the opposite ends of the spectrum. And those atheistic philosophies have sent out more destruction and death in the past century (in which there have been more CHRISTIAN martyrs than in any other) than any other thought system be it 'Christian' or 'Moslem' or any other religious system. Do they exist solely 'for' atheism? That's wrongly worded, they exist solely BECAUSE they are atheistic. Stevens, Hinn, Robertson, Roberts, Humbard, Parsley, Dollar (none of whom I know are responsible for deaths on any scale) are all small potatoes compared to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and a hundred other murderous ogres who followed in their ATHEISTIC footsteps. As far as theocracy goes...and I'll venture into the potentially bombastic yet again...what would be so wrong with a GOOD theocracy? Many of the more just laws we have on the books today proceed from just such a CHRISTIAN KING in England named Alfred the Great. In the future (if you believe in the back of the book and you read who wins) a THEOCRACY is just what you get. The nation of Israel (while I don't hold to the view that ethnic Israel are "God's chosen people" Romans 2:28) is the only viable democracy in the middle east. However that nation came to be--and I don't disagree with your assessment concerning the Balfour Declaration--it is not the cause for all the woes in that region of the world. As we have seen this week, Fatah and Hamas will happily kill one another when left to their own devices as will Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah given half a chance. To that I say more power to them. Just as the Germans wanted to blame every little problem they had on the Jews in the 30s todays islamofascists do the same. Obviously their propaganda has found some success with you. Boss, I expect you to start singing: Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... Now there is a song destined for the elevator with all its depth of 'meaning'... | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1184 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
As far as Carl goes maybe he took that "man shall not live by bread alone" as a personal rhema-r... | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 831 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.91.171.42 |
First off, I'm not an atheist. All I'm saying is that they're not dangerous compared to Christians, Muslims, Mormons, etc. You can be a fascist and be a Christian. You can be a Nazi and be a Christian. There are even Christian Communists. Now, you can split hairs all you want, but if you do just a tiny bit of research, you can see it's true. It is true that most forms of Communist doctrine forbid religion, but there are quite a few religious Commies in Europe. Just because the government owns everything doesn't automatically preclude religion. You can also decide who's a "real" Christian or not, just like Carl does. As far as Carl, Benny and the rest of these butt monkeys being "small potatoes", it is precisely that attitude and belief that makes them so dangerous. "They're Christians! What's so bad about that?" The very fact that they're Christian automatically puts them above criticism in other Christian's minds. Just check out the wisdom of your old friend Jim Buckley. To Jim and those like him, it doesn't matter what these guys do because they're "God's Men" and will be forgiven for whatever they do. Oh yeah, David Duke, "former" Klansman, says he's a Christian. The Klan certainly says they're Christian. You will certainly believe what you want, but 9/11 or other suicide attacks would likely have never taken place unless the bombers believed they had a reward in heaven. People wouldn't give their money to Benny Hinn if they didn't think he was "God's Man". And Carl would still be hustling bread if people didn't believe they were serving God by kissing his butt. And take note of the people that flock to his sons. | ||
| hodeuon Advanced Member Username: hodeuon Post Number: 592 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.160.68.34 |
"What if the Crusades had succeeded?" Well, the First Crusade did succeed. They immediately set up four secular kingdoms in what is now Israel & Lebanon. They didn't exactly put the sharpest knives in the drawer in charge, but they weren't theocracies. Any know why? Your summary of the creation of modern Israel is misleading. The British went to some length to limit Jewish immigration to Israel, and both the Foreign Office and the British military (with the exception of Ordo Wingate) favored the Arabs. The partition plan was made by the United Nations. The Palestinian areas - the West Bank, Gaza, and that strip in Lebanon - weren't taken by the Israelis but by the "friendly" Arab powers that promptly stabbed the Palestinians in the back. Who even now make no effort to use their petrodollars to help the Palestinians' standard of living but keep them confined in camps, using the men as cannon fodder and the women as baby machines. The Palestinians elected Hamas over Fatah in the last election because for all that they're a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs, Hamas does take care of their own and runs extensive social services in Gaza. Which needs it badly. Looking at Arab politics, I am struck by how better off they'd be if they'd follow the supposedly barbaric standards of the Mosaic Law. When the Sunnis and the Shiites kill each other in Iraq, the counterstroke isn't to kill the perp. The declared policy is to kill four for every one. And there's much wringing of hands about the Geneva Convention not being followed to the letter. Can you imagine what would have happened if God had told Moses, "I want you to follow the Geneva Convention when you go to war"? There's no way this is going to come out right, but there's a certain amount of sense in getting people up to the standard of "barbaric" before you try for "civilized". As far as you can be a (insert ideology) and also a Christian, fascism and Communism demand that they be your first loyalty. They can coexist only for a while. Then a crisis forces everyone to choose. Case in point: the 1989 Romanian Revolution. Started with an attack on a church. Hodeuon | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1189 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
Anyone can hold conflicted values. Nazism is based on Neitzsche's philosophy which is atheistic, the implications of which led to Hitler's desire to create the 'superman'. Atheistic philosophy has consequences. Christianity always leads to dignity and value of the human. Atheism makes humanity either the pinnacle of all that is, or just one more 'species'. Communism, nazism and fascism are necessarily atheistic and they lead to governments killing people who disagree with them--by the millions. Benny Hinn, however wacky he may be is free from any murder charges as far as I know, but you may be wiser. To equivocate these guys as just as--or even as remotely close to being--dangerous as Mao, Stalin, Osama, or any of the suicide bombers is just plain ludicrous and shows your obsessive side, bro. I will go to the ropes with yIMINNYbucK any day and he is like a automaton who prates out any doctrine thrown at him by 'gawd's man' but as far as I can see, he and his ilk are still a tiny minority and are not our greatest threat. You can not equivocate, which you tend to do, Christians however wacky they may be with the guys who flew the planes into the towers. That is just DISHONEST and there is not a shred of connection between the two other than they are monotheistic. All A are B does not fit here. | ||
| boss_martian Advanced Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 832 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.31.106.35 |
It's not dishonest. It's only the time frame, Jim. No, Benny Hinn isn't leading an army to execute infidels TODAY. All he's doing is heading up a magic show to steal money. Danger comes in many forms. Thievery can hurt someone almost as badly as physical death. How many were killed by the Christian armies during the crusades? Was it more or less than the couple of thousand that the 9/11 scum killed? How many died under apartheid in South Africa, a system that was "justified" using Christianity? How many died during the Spanish Inquisition? No, I don't see a huge army of Christians armed to the teeth to force conversion, unless you're talking about Christian Identity (look it up) or the Klan (who claim to be good Christians). No, the Christians confine their efforts to stealing money and banging men and women in the Lord's name these days. My whole series of posts came about because you made a statement that atheism was the biggest threat in the twentieth century. If I am to die violently, I am more likely to die at the hands of a wacked out Muslim or Christian than by an atheist. Shoot, Jim, I used to worry about the bastards at GGWO causing some "accidents" when the heat got to be too much. All those guns aren't there for show! | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1192 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
No, the Christians confine their efforts to stealing money and banging men and women in the Lord's name these days. No, Phil. The Christians do not do this. As far as the number killed under apartheid, the inquisition and the crusades, if we're gonna have a contest--during those events the numbers are probably in the tens of thousands. The atheists still win out in the TENS OF MILLIONS. Atheists win by a landslide. And I would argue that the crusades were not necessarily as ignoble as they are painted to be, especially since it was only during the lifetime of Columbus that the Spaniards ran the Muslims out of Spain. Or maybe you didn't see 'El Cid'. And the Turks were troubling the borders of Germany during Luther's lifetime. | ||
| sidethorn New member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.32.127.9 |
Yes many of us were brainwashed, or duped or both. Many came to GGWO thinking we we're joining the best of the best Christian groups to serve Christ. Then the subtle repetitive brainwashing comes in. After a while people are brainwashed or reprogrammed to serve the selfish leadership of GGWO and blindly follow them and depend on them. A lot of duping, brainwashing and shipwrecked lives. All as the inner circle of GGWO continues to feed off the people instead of serve them like Jesus would. | ||
| rocketman New member Username: rocketman Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.230.25.107 |
It's amazing how a thread on the basic question of duping vs brainwashing ended up being a theological discussion on who has the worst form both. From my second post, where I mentioned the rash of Brainwashing Cults - "...not only are you a Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Communist, who truly believes... but you believe (and here's what tips the scale) YOU ARE BETTER for some unexplicable reason,..." This was only to show that brainwashing ONLY requires that one believes that Thier ideology is Superior to someone elses. It doesn't matter WHAT it is one believes. It doesn't matter, Cordell, what you believe is Israel's role in the world. It doesn't matter if they are God's chosen or God's scum, if you believe STRONGlY and influence others to believe it to the extent that you are willing to COMMIT ATROCITIES, then you are the worst kind of cult leader. If you only raise funds coercively and screw a few people out of thier money and lives then you're only as bad as Carlie. Thank God, TBS/GGWO never had a vision for a private militia. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
"Thank God, TBS/GGWO never had a vision for a private militia." I agree with your post, but IMO many do try to make connections between tbs/gg and private militias with the stories of guns in Lenox and armed security in Baltimore. | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.15 |
LMAO, I can personally assure you that there were a number of weapons and surveillance devices purchased by the ministry while in Lenox that were not your garden variety security type items. I can assure you of this because I have seen the receipts for their purchase. As a matter of fact, Hodeuon has a list of them and had written a post regarding their appropriateness (or lack thereof) for standard security purposes. If I can find the post, I will place a link to it. I believe that it was only by the true grace of God that something very bad didn't happen within GG between then and now. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I do not deny that there were guns and surveillance equipment just as you said. I do find any suggestion that tbs/ggwo was or is a potential Waco to be far-fetched. Nevertheless, if you have time to search for that inventory, please post a link. Thanks. | ||
| cordell Junior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
Whatever it is that you're talking about, Jeff, you've either missed the point completely or I am unable to discern the part of the previous discussion to which you refer. If you care to be more specific, I'll answer your comment. | ||
| sidethorn New member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.32.127.9 |
Right on Rocketman!!!!! Cult leaders are all about subtely reprogramming or brainwashing people to change their beliefs to suit the cult leader's desires. Usually people in cults are brainwashed to serve the cult leader or leadership above all others. These people are also reprogrammed to never question anything about their group or its leadership and believe that they're in a more enlightened or superior group. They're also often taught that to leave the group or hang with outsiders too much will bring about disastrous consequences. The general belief systems could look Christian, Christian fundamentalist, Buddhist, Muslim or whatever. Point is there is never a valid excuse for subtely and deceptively reprogramming people and taking advantage of them no matter what the 'religeon' or belief system is. As far as security goes, having guards walking around in the sanctuary of Frankford Plaza with pistols in plain view raises many serious concerns. First, openly carrying firearms is illegal in most areas and for good reason. Why not have more fencing and better perimeter security and stop this open carrying of pistols where real troublemakers could have too easy a time strong-arming a gun from a GGWO guard and do who knows what? I also seriously doubt security is the only motive here at GGWO. Many questions remain unanswered. | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
LMAO, Still looking for the posts, but these are four of the items purchased in Lenox: Ruger Mini-14 .223 w/ 30 round clip Ithaca model 37 12 gauge Ithaca model 37 12 gauge Remington 700 bolt w/ 4-12 scope The Remington 700 is referred to in this article: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyweapons/l/aainfantry1.htm See sections for M24 and M40A1. ...and then there are these... http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/boltaction.htm http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn10-e.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_700 I believe that there were also night vision goggles purchased at that time. I am looking for that documentation. Please don't minimise the seriousness of this issue. Just because you don't think that there was a risk or danger that existed, doesn't mean that there wasn't one. Were you aware that weapons of this type were on the campus? Were you aware of the surveillance and recording equipment? How about the voice stress-analyzer? Was that a counselling tool? | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
AB, I think much of what you mentioned that tbs had served no legitimate purpose, but just to keep things in perspective, the Branch Dividians had an arsenal of over 200 weapons. Included were 22 M-16s and 20 AK-47s all of which were converted to full automatic mode. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.71 |
LMAO, That was from just TWO receipts. There were more weapons left on campus in Lenox, according to Roberta, who I believe is a credible source. She stated that they were put on display at the local police station and that she personally saw them. I accept that as fact. How many do you think were taken to Baltimore? Shall we do some math? We can either extrapolate or interpolate. I am capable of both. Honestly, I have to tell you that I feel that you are consistently resistive when presented with certain facts about things that have taken place in the history of GG. I often wonder if your dismissive responses to certain statements are because you don't want to believe that it could have happened or if you were up to your armpits in some of this stuff and don't want to own your own $hit. Regardless, I think I have a reputation for being even-handed and objective enough for my assertions to be taken seriously. You may not want to believe it or perhaps you don't want others to believe it, but it is true. There was a very real danger...and BTW, up until the very last few hours, Leo Ryan thought there was no threat in Jonestown and we all know how THAT ended. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
There is not even a hint of evidence that tbs ever wanted use their weapons to keep the authorities out (which was the case in Waco) or keep the people in (which was the case in Jonestown). Why do we have to draw parallels between tbs/gg and the most outrageous cults ever to try to prove tbs/gg is cultic? Isn't there enough real evidence that shows this? | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.15 |
So what was the purpose of those weapons? Why was a gun like the Remington 700 w/scope and night vision goggles purchased? If the mere fact that they were purchased doesn't evidence that there was a time when things could have become very ugly, I'm not really sure how much more a reasonable person would need. Would it take someone actually being shot and killed to convince you of the potential danger? You can't see that at one point they were going down a very dangerous path? And, please don't misconstrue what I have said. I wasn't arguing if the ministry was cultic or not. I responded to your dissmissive remark referring to Rocketman's comment about private militia in which you stated a reference to Waco. I would think that if you didn't want the line drawn that you wouldn't draw it. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I think to really know the whole story, we need to know exactly who was in control of what guns and other stuff. The mere presence of such things is no indication of potential danger unless we know whose hands they were in. Where was the surveillance equipment? I will guess that the voice stress analyzer was in chs' office. I was never on security. I am not sure who ran security the last few years there. I don't think it was George Derkee(sp?). He was on security for a time and he was also on the Lenox Police. Does anyone know who else was on security in Lenox? What I do remember is the perceived need for security was because tbs had so many enemies. Chs was probably just paranoid. The only thing to fear on that campus was the skunks and bad teaching. Peace | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.71 |
The documentation that I have seen shows that $78,125 worth of equipment was ordered on 5/28/85 by GEORGE DURKEE for sixteen items, including a countermeasure kit ($17,500), long range parabolic recording system, night scope, voice stress analyzer, telephone analyzer, etcetera. It appears that the price was negotiated down to $57,500. The final invoice was to The Bible Speaks and the items were received on 6/12/85 and signed for by GEORGE DURKEE. I think this dead horse needs beating. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I thought George had already left to take over one of the branch ministries by then. Thanks for clearing that up. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I googled countermeasure kit because I did not know what it was and learned that it was probably a device used to detect bugs. | ||
| dancer2 New member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.153.165 |
In November of 1983 George Durkee caught me sleeping on a classroom floor with my limited worldly belongings scattered around me. I was temporarily homeless at the time, having signed out of all permanent residence at 40 Kemble St. when I took my first trip to Finland that late autumn. George made me part of the temporary security detail at Fokine, intended to keep local vandals from breaking the leaded glass windows while they were trying to sell the place. (A month and a half later I got an apartment in the center of Lenox.) Prior to that adventure I had worked odd hours and was in constant violation of campus curfews, and thus hiding from the security boys was a way of life for me. (Rocketman, didn't you do the same in SB?) One time they caught me at about 2:00 a.m. trying to reconnect the speaker wires to the under-dash cassette deck in my Corolla, except the Lenox police got there first... Lloyd S. had a good laugh as he cleared me of suspiscion of stealing radios. In fact the police officer who pulled me out of the Toyota that night was one of the non-members who played on the TBS Stars softball team. For those who weren't around back then, what does that tell you about relations with local authorities? My relations with George D. & Co. weren't always warm and friendly: I stopped driving busses to pick people up for evening services after an argument with George about where I was supposed to park the darned things. Unnecessary expenses on security aparati? Of course! But that was par for the course in the orgy of spending Betsy's donations back then. No need to assume anything more sinister than that. There were plenty of people around back then who were mad enough at CHS to burn down more of his chapels. There were also spoiled brats around there for whom "beakers" were fair game for releasing "high spirits". (Bear in mind that it was close to that point in history that a gang from the "Lenox Memorial School for the High" actually killed two kids from Lee and got off with a slap on the wrist.) Summa summarum, I agree with lmao here. Anyone drawing connections with Waco is more than a little paranoid themself. | ||
| isabella New member Username: isabella Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.128.143.230 |
"But that was par for the course in the orgy of spending Betsy's donations back then. No need to assume anything more sinister than that." That's sinister enough for me! Isabella | ||
| sidethorn New member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.32.127.9 |
Makes us all wonder where our donations really went during all those years at TBS/GGWO. Definately misappropriated. Another reason I'm glad to be out. SIDETHORN | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.124.225 |
There is NO good reason to have that kind of weaponry on the campus in Lenox. None. Carl was paranoid, and believed the hype he spouted about himself, and also believed the lies he consistently fed us about his so called enemies. I say, and I know it in my heart from all I saw during my time on campus and on staff, that it really would not have taken much for Carl to come completely unglued and force an issue where the weapons and other things would be threatened and or used against us, or in our name against others. If you ever heard Carl screams and diatribes from his office or in private meetings, you know...he was unbalanced, and capable of more than can be uttered here. He is not nor was not incapable of pushing the people in the pews to lengths they never thought they'd go. So, I say, we were unecessarily put in harms way with the existance of this cache, because there were too many loose cannons, pardon the pun, at 40 Kemble Street.....Carl controlled them. *shudder* | ||
| isabella New member Username: isabella Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.128.143.230 |
Right you are RJ, (Hi to you...hope you're doing OK these days) And now, as this board closes down in 21, 20, 19, 18....days, we have come full circle. Even as I wrote these words, I felt a little *shudder*.... "Jim Jones was paranoid. Jim Jones took drugs. Jim Jones had body guards & guns. Jim Jones’s congregation followed him to Guyana (Baltimore). Jim Jones was charismatic. Jim Jones manipulated people through their vulnerabilities and arranged and controlled relationships from the pulpit." Some of us realized it and left... Others never did... Thanks, Isabella | ||
| rocketman New member Username: rocketman Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.70.241.184 |
ON June 3 Cordell wrote me: "Whatever it is that you're talking about, Jeff, you've either missed the point completely or I am unable to discern the part of the previous discussion to which you refer. "If you care to be more specific, I'll answer your comment." I guess my comment must have come out of the blue. I didn't fully read the discussion on atheism, Nazism (sp) etc. between Cordell, Hodeuon, and Boss_Martian. From my perusal it Seems you all were debating the merits/detriments of different sects (be they Christian or otherwise) in an attempt to find out who was the greatest deciever. I know, I know, I probably missed great masses of opinions, commentary, and subject matter so I Really Don't Know what the discussion involved... I was just making comment on how the discussion switched from people dealing with the personal issues of being deceived... to a discussion of the evils of atheism et al. I was just surprised at how the thread switched.. morphed I guess.. into another theological discussion. My commentary on the subject as I see it? They are all the same. Anyone who decides that they have "the true understanding" whether it be religious, social, political or military is suspect. Anyone who has to harass and coerce, or otherwise bully people to believe the way they do, is becoming a brainwashed baboon. Anyone who believes to the point of taking up arms against "infidels" of any stripe... Well that's another thread. TBS/GGWO may have had security, but I don't remember going to any "Maintenance and Disassembly of the M-16 Rifle" classes after breakfast. Thank God for little miracles. J |
