Haggart killed fundamentalism in the USA

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post Christopher Beard - New Life Church - Ted Haggard jeepman 4  1  12-09-07  6:18 pm   Start New Thread

Author Message   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 361 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.218 Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 2:26 am:        The Haggard scandal may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Fundieism has become as large and powerful as it can get. When they started getting into politics as heavily as they did -- particularly the Nazi-esque hate politics that they have been spewing they got a little to big for their brithches. Haggard just deconverted thousands of fundies on the spot -- the ones who are not too brainwashed to start asking a couple of questions. Many more fundies will fall away from the fold in the near future when they start looking at this situation for what it really is. First of all Haggard is living concrete proof that the fundie idiology on gay persuation is poppycock. If homosexuality is a choice then Haggard chose to destroy his career -- uh, no I don't think that was his plan. If the 'cure' for homosexuality is xtianity then either Haggard was not a real xtian or the power of gay interests were stronger than the will of god, or Haggard was not a real christian, or they just go into hyper denial and pretend the whole thing didn't happen. There will continue to be some brainwashed people but fundamentalism has just come to an end as the powerful political force that it once was. Some years from now being a fundie will be regarded the same way that being a racist is. For those of you who are younger -- racism was as poular as fundieism is today. It really is amazing how many people they managed to brainwash -- 30 years ago nobody would give some nutcase like Dobson or Haggard the time of day. then they converted as many people as they could to idiotic BS, then Haggard goes out and PROVES beyond any reasonable doubt that the whole shebang is a crock. Well anyway we are starting a new page in American history. Good riddence to fundamentalist xtianity -- was nice having you around -- NOT!!!!   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 626 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.14.174.183 Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 9:28 am:        If homosexuality is a choice then Haggard chose to destroy his career -- uh, no I don't think that was his plan. If the 'cure' for homosexuality is xtianity then either Haggard was not a real xtian or the power of gay interests were stronger than the will of god, or Haggard was not a real christian, or they just go into hyper denial and pretend the whole thing didn't happen. Are you serious????? Haggard made the choice to do what he did and he suffered the consequences. His choice was not based on a decision to destroy his ministry ... he made his choice to do things that he knew were wrong (against the will of God) because it was something that he wanted even though he knew it was wrong. God does not control people like puppets. Those who know God are lead by God, He does give us the strength to keep from doing wrong but He does not prevent us from it. We make the decision. Either we decide to do what is right because it is pleasing to God ... or to do what is wrong because we want to do what is pleasing to ourselves. Scripture warns us not to harden our heart towards God by sinning. Haggard did not head this warning ... and as a result he reaped what he sowed.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 286 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.64.146.163 Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 10:35 am:        Frankenbeans: Please elaborate on the phrase "the power of gay interests"... what are those interests and what power are contained within them. I am curious to hear your thoughts. Thank you.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 362 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.152.83 Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 2:55 pm:        Ok -- Gay interests -- I was referring to Haggster's desires to engage in sex w/ a member of his own gender. This desire, in Haggy was stronger than his desire to be honest. Gay bash by day, sex and drugs by night. What a liar. Now we have to deal with the fact that the Hagginator's religion was a failure. Xtianity did not work for Haggard. Sex and drugs is declared the winner and Jesus the loser. Tested and proven xtianity does not work -- the whole philosphy is a failure. THe politics behind fundie-ism is a failed political system, it simply does not work. Jesus, god, the Bible and all that jive are failures. They simply don't work and are not true. Tested and proven again and again and again. There comes a time when you run out of excuses and this is that time. Fundies are over, done, finished. They had their years of glory being psycho terrorists for J-zuz, making everyone else miserable with their lies and corruption (wich are the basic components of fundamentalism) and now the party's over. The power of gay interests -- now the fundies have to come to terms with the fact that their delusions about sexual orientation are just delusions -- Haggard, tested and proven -- yues science is right on this one too, sexual orientation is not a choice and belief in absurd fictional characters has no effect on it. Fact. Fundie-ism is going down and not a moment too soon. On some level almost every fundie knows that the whole cult of xtian fundamentalism is a crock of manuer. Most are afraid to confront that reality directly but things like this help a great deal. I wonder how many people left Haggmeister's cult on the spot. How many more will follow. And the whole fundie network is shaken, how many left Dobson's cult too? How many left Falwell's, Robertson's, and those other creepy cults as well? Looks like that pendulum is swinging the other way and the fascist regime of fundamentalist pigcrap is over.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 605 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.44.177 Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 6:07 pm:        Whilr Ted haggard did fall, while he did lie initially (as most do), he did something amazing: 1. He volutarily steeped down from two leadership positions 2. He allowed his independent board to make the decision that they did 3. He confessed, and took the consequences. When President Clinton Lied under oath, what did most liberal individuals do? Not a thing. While I am saddened at the events in Ted Haggards life, I applaud him for doing what was correct.   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 238 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 5:56 am:        To Everyone, The following link shows an article called Ted Haggard is a Globalist. http://prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/071106_b_Haggard.htm You can also find the following link in the above article. http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2globalchurch.htm   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 627 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.14.200.53 Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 8:04 am:        I applaud him for doing what was correct. Personally, I don't think his conduct is worthy of any praise. And it wouldn't surprise me if he stepped down so quickly because he was promised that he would be "restored" to ministry after a brief period. But only time will tell.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 290 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.64.146.163 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 4:33 pm:        "I applaud him for doing what was correct"... As an unabashed Haginite, I have to recommend that you not clap in church at all...   kookie77777 Junior Member Username: kookie77777 Post Number: 48 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 68.0.74.139 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 5:18 pm:        ONE FINGER OUT AND THREE FINGERS BACK.. I THINK WE SHOULD AIR ALL POSTER'S DIRTY LAUNDRY AND PUT ON A BIG SCREEN THEIR DIRTY LYING THOUGHTS.. DEAL?????????   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 614 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.44.177 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 6:46 pm:        Marta, That is all speculation, and I doubt that it will be a breif period of time. Ted haggard will never be a pastor at New Life Church again, and he stepped down before anything even come about from his board. I only applaud him for not trying to remain innocent. Why do some Chrsistians enjoy shooting their own wounded...   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 628 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.41.209 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 12:44 am:        Come on ... you want to applaud a man because he stopped lying after all the evidence came out and he had no other choice but to tell the truth? BTW, you're the one who brought up Clinton. Is it OK to "shoot" at him but not at a minister? Don't judge me and I won't judge you?????? No wonder the church is in the state it's in. Judgement begins in the church. (Message edited by marta on November 10, 2006)   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 373 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 1:00 am:        Actually I just read an article about the "spiritual restoration" process that Hagg has to go through in order to get back up on stage, panhandle, screech and squawk about the evils of homosexuality, and spew his delusions. http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/10342.html I guess he has to endure some sadistic torture from the Focus on the Family gang of lunatics for a very long time before he gets to start ripping people off in the name of Jzuz again. As much as I find Haggwad to be a repulsive sack of ••••, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 617 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.44.177 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 5:14 pm:        Marta, Clinton Denied ever doing wrong; so did Haggard, but a least he came out with the truth. He never lied under oath. So many Christian leaders in the past have done something similar, and repent on TV, then continue in ministry, which I believed was wrong. "Don't Judge me and I won't judge you??????" I have no idea what this has to do with what I said. Yes, judgement begins in the church, and I believe that judgement is being passed on him. To answer your question, no it is not OK to shoot at Clinton but not a minister. There are plenty of ministers who fell that never admitted any wrong. The truth is Ted Haggard came forward. The reasons why, which you ave given, are pure speculation. All that I am is saying is that I am proud of him for telling the truth, and not trying to cover it up anymore.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 629 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 76.16.158.51 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 7:35 pm:        Clinton Denied ever doing wrong; so did Haggard, but a least he came out with the truth. He never lied under oath. Both men sinned and then lied about what they did to cover it up. Why do you feel the need to say that Clinton is the worse sinner? You accuse me of shooting someone who is injured, because I comment on Haggard's behavior ... and yet, you don't seems to feel it's wrong to comment on Clinton's behavior. Why is what I said worse than what you said? Besides, don't you think church leaders should be held to a higher standard? When a Christian is caught doing shameful things it brings shame on the entire church .. and even more so when it's a church leader. I would have been proud of Haggard if he came forward when he first sinned. Instead he continued this behavior for some time until he got caught. Just like Clinton. Sorry, but I don't see anything to be proud of ... instead I'm saddened by both situations.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 291 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.64.146.163 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 8:15 pm:        Just out of curiousity, what do the two of you think this verse means?... I would be curious to get your take on what the Holy Spirit is saying in this passage of Scripture - particularly as it pertains to ministers/ministry... Rom 11:29 "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."   trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 761 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 8:44 pm:        Get a grip, I am almost hesitant to even post to you, but I must say you made me laugh and I agree with your humorous clapping comment. Although read the book that he wrote that in and realize that he said he is not against clapping altogether except where there is no place for it and it distracts and quenchs the Holy Spirit from the worship. He also shows there is no scriptural precedent for clapping or giving God a clap as one would a performer. The point he mostly made was the quenching of the spirit, and peoples inability and untaught direction to be still and listen to the Holy Spirit under the corporate annointing. Most churches never seek it. Most churches never allow it. Some churches try to control it and only let leadership move in the gifts. How sad for anyone to be able to learn. I have never seen such a paranoia, total fear and the ushering out of the Holy Spirit in services. Most because they LACK KNOWLEDGE of the BIBLE and the Holy Spirit. Too bad because the Holy Spirit WROTE THE BIBLE, and he interprets the Bible, and we are told to be LED BY THE SPIRIT of God. This only comes the best by the scriptural way and understanding of it. How can anyone know unless it be taught. Kenneth Hagin knew this well. He also said as I have seen too many times during worship and quiet annointing nervous people just start clapping. Heck I have even had pastors and worship leaders say lets give God a hand, or lets give a clap offering to God. These same so called spirit filled word churchs don't allow the gifts, they don't teach on the Holy Spirit, they don't teach on the gifts or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they don't encourage raising hands, they never sing in tongues, and they have more than half a congregation that are not spirit filled, with most of them unable to teach on why they should or the benefits of tongues, the spiritual gifts, and the Holy Spirit. Now as far as the ministry gifts mentioned in Romans 11. They only work according to Gods word by the way of the Holy Spirit, love and faith. Faith works by love. They are always there but those that don't stay in fellowship will never flow effectively in them. God does not take them back as the scripture continues to explain, and no amount of repayment can be made for them. It states in the ampl you used-"He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call." You will never flow in them, or flow in them fully, unless your heart is right,(God looks at the heart), and your word knowledge is up to snuff with time spent meditating in and fellowshipping with God. I have very close friends of Ted Haggard and Ross Parsley the worship and associate pastor there. They are loving people, but I have been told before they deny some of Gods word, and power, and Holy Spirit. The Assembly of God denomination as a whole has kicked the Holy Spirit out for a seeker church mentality. They don't realize you can have both. Joel Osteens church is a perfect example of having both.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 630 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 76.16.158.51 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 9:36 pm:        If you read Rom 11:29 in context, it does not appear to be talking about ministers or the ministry, but rather God's relationship with Israel. How do you interpret "Romans 11:20-21 ....Don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the branches he put there in the first place, he won't spare you either."   trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 765 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 12:31 pm:        Marta, "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.] 30Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience," Romans 11 God does not revoke or withdraw his Gifts or callings to anynone including what he has for the disobedient Jew non-believer. People move away from God in their heads and hearts. Thus they do not access the gifts or call. They can but don't. Just like salvation God calls so that all would come and receive, but all do not come, and not all receive it. Not even believers walk in it perfectly. I knew of a number of great teachers, pastors and evangelists who had great gifts from God. They all at one time and a few more then once got away from God for a number of various reasons, some through sin, refusing the call, fear, not seeking etc.. I also saw them come back into and walk and operate in their calling and gifts. God did not remove the EXTENDED gifts or calling, they just missed it. I know of one very successful teacher and evangelist who got into alcohol and even would get drunk but he would repent and walk up on stage and thousands would come to Christ, thousands would receive healing, thousands come back into fellowship. The gifts and calling would still operate as this person walked back in it. God is a God of second third and unlimited chances and extends his hand out to all who would come back to him as their source. His call and gifts do not stop and the He the power supply dim. He is always there never leaving or forsaking. We change our thinking, we get into the wrong mindset, and harden our hearts towards God by not keeping sensitive, fellowship,meditating in His word, prayer, being a doer of Gods word, and our mind stayed upon him. Now are you talking about losing ones salvation or can Jews be saved? Both is possible. Losing ones salvation is harder and not actually losing but making a total conscious decision renouncing God and salvation totally or being lukewarm as in Revelation. "21For if God did not spare the natural branches [because of unbelief], neither will He spare you [if you are guilty of the same offense]. 22Then note and appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's gracious kindness to you--provided you continue in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away). 23And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree. 25Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [c]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,." Romans Jeremiah 31:33 33But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law within them, and on their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. Read.. Jeremiah 31:33; Galatians 3:29; Hebrews 12:22-24   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 631 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.48.105 Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 1:30 pm:        trsrinheaven, Romans 11 is not talking about those in the ministry or ministry gifts. Once again you are going beyond what is written ... taking what God said and then adding your own interpretation. You base your beliefs on your experiences. You should be basing your beliefs on what God has clearly spoken. How many times in Scripture are we WARNED not to keep sinning once we have accepted God's forgiveness? Doesn't Scripture WARN us not to take our salvation for granted? Christians need to heed these warnings.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 621 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.44.177 Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 2:45 pm:        Marta, I did not mean to apply that you where "shooting" at Clinton. From your last post to me, I can see where you are coming from. From your comment, I will need to say that I do agree with you on your information.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 622 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.44.177 Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 2:52 pm:        Getagrip, There is not one reputable scholar who hold to the position that the context of Romans 11 is dealing only with God's relationship with Israel (As another poster suggested). Verse 11 is also speaking about the fact that even if a person messes up, their gifts and calling do not change. They may have to take a detour in ministry, but the calling is still there. We need to remember that Romans was written to a non-Jewish people group, and it applies to us a s Christians. So, I my take is what I have stated above.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 732 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 3:19 pm:        MARTA: Here is a warning to all of us. Are we all better than Haggard? Let us all examine our own lives. Are we perfect? How are we different from Apostle Paul WHO DID THE THINGS HE DID NOT WANT TO DO AND DID NOT DO THE THINGS HE OUGHT TO HAVE DONE? I am guilty of one thing. My Christian Secretary advised me to show some kindness to my Lesbian assistant 16 years ago.In those days, I could not even believe that anyone could be a homosexual. I had so much of aversion to even the thought of anyone being a homosexual.In fact, I was so concerned about building her career and did everything till the day she brough the issue of homosexuality. She had totally turned me off by her lifestyle the day she came out of her closet.I never realized that she was struggling with many personal issues. I did not care about anything as a person.If only I had treated her as a normal human being in need of help, perhaps, I could have helped her change her lifestyle. I missed the greatest opportunity. I am stillpraying for her. Applying this to Ted, only onething I can say is OUR OWN SINS WILL FIND US OUT. Unfortunately Ted was overcome with compulsive and addictive abnormal desires which he could never overcome. He was tempted in all the weakest of all the times. He never had the courage to tell Satan, GET BEHIND ME SATAN. Who are we to throw stones at Ted when we are all sinners. We may not be homosexuals. Do we not exaggerate things? Do we not speak " Little Lies"? Do we not misrepresent things? Let us clean our own lives before we will cast any stone at anyone. When his sin was found out, he voluntarily resigned. He has subjected himself to the best treatment by few prominet experts. One good lesson: His wife has unique and immense strength and courage I have never seen from anyone else. She never accused him. But expressed love and sympathy. There are not too many women who can do this. She is a unique and a very very remarkable woman of courage.I have so much of respect for her.She is adorable. One thing is certain: When he completes his recovery process, he will be a lot mopre dymnamic man than who he is now and will serve God much better than what he has done so far. He will be the best example of someone whose lifestyle can be changed and he was never born as a homosexual. So let us look at ourselves and stop throwing stones at someone who is not worse than us. Ted did not do any damage to anyone. In fact he has helped the christian community by reminding all of us that we are all sinners and we can even be tempted. No one is an exemption. Bill Clinton's failure: He never admitted any sexual relationship though there was the evidence of a Semen stain on the blue dress of Monica Lewinsky. If only he had admitted his sins, we would have respected him. His admission would have also cost his office of the President.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 632 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.48.105 Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 12:56 am:        bear, Romans 11 is not specifically talking about those in ministry or ministry gifts. Therefore, IMO, when you say that Romans 11:29 is talking about ministry gifts, you are giving your own private interpretation of the verse. inkorrekt, Don't be deceived, when Haggard sinned he hurt many people. There is forgiveness available if he truly repents. But true repentance requires one to turn away from sin. If you think I'm not telling the truth about what Scripture says ... read it for yourself. We are WARNED several times to stop sinning once we come to know the truth. We are told to warn each other continually not to be deceived by sin and hardened against God. Can you show me one place where Paul says it's OK to sin because we are all human? Paul himself was NOT a sinful man (your interpretation of what Paul is saying is wrong). Paul also was very stern when addressing things like sexual sin in the church. He did not tolerate sin the way some in ministry do today. When you are tempted to sin, the fear of God should keep you from acting on it. Do you know right from wrong? Then do what is right. If there is a lot of sin in the church today it's because the church has grown worldly. The focus is more on worldly things then it is on spiritual things. Scripture warns us that we will reap what we sow. It also says you cannot love two masters. Those who love this world are enemies of God. I can't help it if these things offend you ... but it's God who has given us these things in His Word ... not me. I'm just telling you what God has said. But don't take my word for it. Study it for yourself. But be willing to accept the truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to you.   trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 769 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 9:08 pm:        Marta, This a no brainer Marta, scripture gives light to God and his intent all over the place. In this case this particular scripture also sidebars and STATES CLEARLY that god NEVER revokes or withdraw his Gifts or callings. So what that he is also including Jews here. The scripture is stating this across the board as God's way in the area of gift and callings for all. If you don't see that go and read it. The Greek text is also clear in this. Of course those who do not stay in right fellowship will not operate in these gifts or callings correctly, especially those who are pride filled, hard hearted or unrepentant from sin. Here in Romans 11 Greek original text... "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.] 30Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience," Romans 11 This means exactly what it is saying, only now they are including Jews in this mix who will not be disobedient. God NEVER revokes or withdraw his Gifts or callings to anynone including what he has for the disobedient Jew non-believer. People move away from God in their heads and hearts. Come close to God and he is close to you. Thus they do not access the gifts or call. They can but don't. Just like salvation God calls so that all would come and receive, but all do not come, and not all receive it. Those disobedient and those that reject God will not ever come into their purpose calling or gifts. Not even believers walk in it perfectly.   beaches New member Username: beaches Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.39 Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 10:09 am:        frankenchrist- Wondering if you have some inside info on Dobson and the organization. We have thought for years there was something going on with Susie Shellenberger. Why does she write so much about lesbianism in Brio ( their teen girls' magazine) Our daughter went on one of Brio's mission trips years ago and things were definitely not right within that organization. Hopefully many people will speak out against them in the future. Just wondering how long it will take for their stack to come tumbling down too.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 386 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 4:27 pm:        Beaches, No I don't have any inside dope on Dobson. Just another fascist political leader whom I have no trust or faith in. Just something about the guy, I know he's dirty.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 624 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.41.41.77 Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 6:16 pm:        Marta, I do not mean to be rude, but I am not giving a private interpretation. I am trained in the area of theological research. Ever answer that I give about interpretain is done so onle after a complete textual and historical critique. If you take verse 30 of Romans 11, and read the entire passage to get an understanding of what Paul is teaching, the interpretaion that I have given stands up to the test. One must take ALL scriptures relating to a topic into consideration in order to gain a proper understanding. I know that you are a stubborn when in comes to defending what oy have been taught.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 625 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.41.41.77 Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 6:17 pm:        Marta, I do not mean to be rude, but I am not giving a private interpretation. I am trained in the area of theological research. Every answer that I give about interpretain is done so only after a complete textual and historical critique. If you take verse 30 of Romans 11, and read the entire passage to get an understanding of what Paul is teaching, the interpretaion that I have given stands up to the test. One must take ALL scriptures relating to a topic into consideration in order to gain a proper understanding. I know that you are a stubborn when in comes to defending what oy have been taught.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2032 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.40 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 9:22 am:        "Verse 11 is also speaking about the fact that even if a person messes up, their gifts and calling do not change. They may have to take a detour in ministry, but the calling is still there." In regards to Haggard I hardly think that "messes up" speaks to the reality of the situation. Haggard is at best "a wolf in sheep's clothing" (Matt:15) and at the worst a con artist like Marjoe Gortner and Peter Popoff. He is more likely just a deluded, tortured, homosexual, who like Lonnie Lathan, was forced to hire prostitutes and self medicate from the internal stress of the cognitive dissidence his religion required of him. Haggard carried on an elaborate deception for a long time. He deceived people about who he really was in a position where absolute trust is cultivated and expected. He did this for a great number of years and for a great deal of money. The man is not a "believer in need of restoration" he is a criminal in need of incarceration for fraud and that is all.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 633 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 76.16.158.63 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 10:38 am:        I know that you are a stubborn when in comes to defending what oy have been taught. LOL. And you're not? We disagree about the verse. But you have the comfort of knowing that others (trs) agree with you. But I have a question for you. How do you know if someone has been "called" to be a minister by God? Aren't there some who might claim that they are "called" by God that are indeed "wolves in sheep's clothing"? So, while you keep "restoring" a minister who keeps "messing up" ... at what point do you realize, maybe this man was never called in the first place?   trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 770 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:32 pm:        Marta, The five fold ministry gifts have specific enough information about them as listed in the Bible to know those that labor among us. Along with these scriptures and the Holy Spirit, you can easily know these wolves. If you ask the Holy Spirit to show you, He will give you a check in your heart about the "wolves in sheeps clothing". They bear bad fruit. They bear self centered fruit. They miss the priorities of God, to serve the children of God, and not looking for a self centered place of honor among men. First Jesus said we shall know them by their fruit...(evil ministers yield evil fruit.) There are so many people calling themselves pastors who are not called in those ministries. As a result the people who attend their churches suffer from neglect. These so called pastors give little care to the individuals of their church, yield few salvations and outreach to their local community, and hurt many families. They usually become authoritarian dictators demanding blind obedience to them. They usually demand complete authority over every person, label and ridicule anyone who leaves the church for any reason. The people who attend these places have not learned to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit who is always broadcasting as Jesus stated "to comfort them" and to "lead and guide them into all truth and show them things to come". They are never taught this or encouraged to practice listening to their born again spirit. They do not know the word very well, and have little knowledge of "being led by the Spirit of God" Romans 8 If these minister steal, kill or destroy from peoples lives then they are definitely not someone to receive ministry from. There are priorities of all the ministry gifts, for Apostles, new testament prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. The first is allegiance to God and not the world or man, the second is to the Great Commission and ministry of reconciliation to equip the body of Christ to go forth in knowledge and power yielding Godly results. We are all AMABASSADORS called to the ministry of reconciliation, to reconcile others to God with His word of reconciliation. The Great Commission to make disciples, in its entirety is to accomplished and kept as THE TOP PRIORITY. For when Jesus returns or someone dies that is all that matters. Do you see most ministers or churches or the body of Christ knowing this is a matter of ETERNAL LIFE OR DEATH? OR acting as if they know this is their top priority calling, after their own relationship to God? Do you see them actually giving ACTION to this? It's as if they don't see the LIFE AND DEATH SERIOUSNESS of why Jesus came, and those dieing and going into a Godless eternity. Jesus came to make a way so ALL COULD COME INTO RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRUE LOVING GOD as their father. According to the Bible the world is condemned already and knows it. Romans 1 Read John 3:17 we already have read 3:16. "Jesus came not to comdemn the world but rather that the world would be saved through him" JOHN 3:17   bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2273 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 4:42 pm:        Haggard is just a gay dude who needs to accept his homosexuality and continue to love Jesus if he chooses. Unfortunately he has spent most of his life denying his own truth and propagating another truth. It is now time for him to restore his integrity and accept who and what he is and get on with his life. He is gay, gay, gay, and as Sienfelf said, "Not that there is anything wrong with that."   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 265 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:48 am:        To Everyone, Here is another interesting blog's article called Ted Haggart's Lies. http://herescope.blogspot.com/2006/11/ted-haggards-lies.html   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 736 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.101.217.189 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 8:59 pm:        Haggard did nothing except to remind all the "I AM HOLIER THAN THOU" Christians that we are all sinners and no one is perfect except God and that each one of us can fall anytime and we all need God's grace.   bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.177.160 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:27 am:        Interesting that the Ted Haggart story dropped out of site after a few days. Remember when Swaggart and the Bakkers were exposed back in the 1980s? It went on and on and on. But now, the media/world are like, "Oh, really? Whatever." Jesus is still on His throne and while I feel badly for Ted's wife and family, I hope he chooses to remain in counseling and just "goes away" for five years. And I hope he DOESN'T write a book...!   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 393 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 4:26 pm:        Haggard is not in counseling. He is in some looney fundie coven. Has nothing to do with psychology, science, mental health, or anything else that is reality-based. It's just another scam.   lablady2 Advanced Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 935 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 4:40 pm:        An important point to remember is that none of these leaders has any more authority than that which people are willing to give them. I've had the experience of being coerced; it took me several years to admit that I was, up to a point, a willing participant. In layman's terms, it takes two to tango.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 394 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 4:56 pm:        Good point LL, There is a book by James Randi called "The Faith Healers." In this book he describes various scams that these frauds perform. Most of them are so obvious that it seems impossible that they would actually fool anyone. There were some statements made by a man who worked on the film crew for Peter Popoff and left because it was such a vile scam. At one point, just before he walked, the man started pointing out obvious problems with Popoff's little circus act to his flock and how they were being taken for a ride. They just didn't care, they WANTED to be scammed. Some people don't care what the truth is, they just believe what they want to believe, not what is true.   lablady2 Advanced Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 936 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:07 pm:        "Some people don't care what the truth is, they just believe what they want to believe, not what is true." I can only speak for myself, but, in my case, I might amend that to "they just believe what they NEED to believe...". People are frail, imperfect, and in the case of many who are targeted by the cults, young. I had a rather chaotic childhood and I was looking for absolutes because I needed absolutes. As Dr. Phil would say (oy, I cringe), there has to be a payoff. Often, when the need is met, whatever it may be, people leave these organizations. Hard to say which came first, the chicken or the egg. If these organizations were wiped off the face of the earth today, people would create them again because the fundamental problem (pun intended) hasn't been addressed. We are only humink beans, Frank. Don't expect too much.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 396 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:55 pm:        The "fundamental problem" -- groan. I would never deny the payoff in cults. There are many different kinds of payoffs that people get from belonging to such groups. And it's true that when one leader is exposed as a fraud many of the members just go over to another cult. The need to belong to a social group is stong. Groups thet procalim special knowledge or divinity is especially attractive. On the surface all cults offer a social network. We are social animals and have a need to be with others. Often you will hear cult members describe their relationships with other cult members as being "incredibley deep" some say stronger than the relationships they had with family or friend before they joined the cult. Then what happens when one of the people in these "incredibley deep" relationships leaves the cult? The relationship inevitable disolves. Because it is not about the relationship between two people it is about the relationship that those people have with the cult. Cults can be easy to navigate for some. One need only to learn and repeat the doctrine. There is the 'big fish in the small pond' syndrome. One can achieve a status within the group that doesn't translate to external status. Cults are prime hunting grounds for opportunistic con artists and sexual predators. I would never suggest that they will go away -- they wont. But every once in a while a person within such a group wakes up and smells the BS.   lablady2 Advanced Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 937 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 6:09 pm:        I'm sure that my experience as both a nurse and a former cult member greatly influences my current view: that those who are members of cults as either leaders or followers are in a state of unwellness, either emotionally, physically, mentally or spiritually. I'm sure you don't agree with the spiritual take and that's fine with me. So, I tend to view it as a problem that requires some sensitivity and compassion. I can tell you that I had no idea that I was looking for anything (my absolutes) because I was being driven by such a deep need. Think shark - a perfect predator seeking nourishment. The fact that people are driven by needs in no way excuses wrong behavior, but I tend to look more at the cause than the symptoms. I would tend to feel pity for Mr. Haggard if his fundamentalism was driven by a need to deny, deny, deny what he could not possibly face about himself. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this situation will be. Will Mr. Haggard live as a gay man? Will Mr. Haggard repent and live a Christian life? Personally, after he corrects what he needs to correct with himself and others, I just wish him peace.   bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.155.220 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:37 pm:        frankenchrist, Haggard IS in counseling: ---- Haggard is to be counseled by a team including Jack Hayford and Tommy Barnett who intend to "perform a thorough analysis of Haggard’s mental, spiritual, emotional and physical life", including the use of polygraph tests.[44] The team was to include James Dobson, who later stepped aside, citing time constraints.[45] SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 630 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.43.144 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:48 pm:        Marta, How do I know if someone is called? I do not...only they do. Yes, some are wolves! I do not think that someone should be restored over and again. Also, this is not the case with Haggard. As for me, I knew that I was called from a young age. I have many years of being in the trenches of ministry, and I have seen my share of people mess up. I also know that according to Matthew 18, and many other texts, that we are to restore people who repent, and not shoot them while they are down. I do not think that I would want to attend the fellowship that you do. If the things that you speak come from the mouth of your pastor, then that fellowship is founded upon legalistic standards verses scriptural.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 634 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.29.177 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:32 am:        bear, Do you think all your study has given you special insight? All true revelation comes from the Holy Spirit, ALL revelation from the Holy Spirit agrees with Scripture ... and He reveals God's truth to anyone who has a heart willing to accept it. My pastor believes the same, but it was the Holy Spirit that revealed it to each of us. But that offends you, because you have studied hundreds of dusty old documents for years and you believe everyone should just accept anything you say to be true. So you quickly put people like me, anyone who doesn't agree with you, in my place. How dare I. Right? My point .... I would not wish to fellowship with you either. I find you a very prideful person who thinks more highly of himself then he should. Any true revelation you have was given to you freely by the Holy Spirit, so you have nothing to be prideful about. As far as restoration goes, you will find that I posted that there is forgiveness for those who sincerely repent. This is Scriptural. But true repentance requires turning away from one's sin. If being willing to say what God says about sin is being legalistic, then I guess you got me. Yes, just like Scripture tells us, I warn other Christians to stop sinning. I warn then not to be deceived by sin and not to harden their hearts toward God by continuing to sin after they know the truth. And thank God there are still a few pastors around that have the courage to speak this truth also. But if this is legalism, then make sure you include Jesus in that category ... Matt 4:17 From then on, Jesus began to preach, "Turn from your sins and turn to God, because the Kingdom of Heaven is near. " Or when Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more" do you think He was just being dramatic? Have a good life bear. Eat, drink and be merry.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 632 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.43.144 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 4:04 pm:        Marta, You have just twisted everything that I posted to fit your dogma. That is unfair, and it proves the point that I was making. You are so easily offended; I have noticed this by other posts from other threads. True revelation come from the Holy Spirit, yes. The truth of that revelation will be supported by historical documentation. You take my confidence as pride. You twist words and draw a conclusion. That is a classic sign of someone who is insecure: You lash back so that you will not be proven wrong. The dusty old document that you speak of keep people from getting off in to a ditch. By the way, none of the documents that I have studied are dusty. I believe as you do about sin. But you are passing a judgement on Ted Haggard, a mockery if you will, for the sin that he commited. Truth is not legalism, but harsh judgement is. If people continue to sin, then yes, the must be judged according to the sriptures. However, when one repents, and asks for steps to restoration, they need to be granted. No they should not stay in ministry during this time, but they still have a future in serving God aftr the restoration has been completed. Not on the same level, but they are not disqualified. To end I will say that I have a great life. I have been in ministry for years, and I speak with boldness because I live it. I am not a liberal, I am a person who undersatnds that people mess up, and when true repentance is shown, we must do everything possible to bring restoration to that persons life.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 293 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 6:48 pm:        "So, while you keep "restoring" a minister who keeps "messing up" ... at what point do you realize, maybe this man was never called in the first place?" Good question, but perhaps out of place in this forum. I do not know much about Haggard but I do believe that this thread is about him and also that he has been relatively "clean" up to this point. He certainly has not "fallen" and had to be restored prior to this... Sooo, a better question would be this for Marta. In your opinion Marta, what is the proper approach to a minister who "falls" (like Haggard), first time offender (as far as we know) and who not only confesses (whether it was immediate and complete, or not) and has subjected himself to a form of "church discipline", accountability and counseling.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 635 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.29.177 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 7:03 pm:        Good question, getagrip. You ask a lot of questions, and answer few. I think I'll start following your example. Hey getagrip, I recently noticed that the new fad in "ministry" is to have a myspace site. Do you have one? If not, maybe you should look into it. Seems like everyone who is anyone is doing it. Peace.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 633 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.43.144 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 8:43 pm:        Marta said: "You ask a lot of questions, and answer few. I think I'll start following your example." Another statement that proves my point. Getagrip has a grip on what is happening in the life of Ted Haggard. I believe that the question warrants an answer.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 296 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:51 pm:        How many questions is "a lot"? I just asked the one in my post. I'm curious, what in your opinon is the proper method of "dealing" with a situation like Ted Haggard's? Reese's Pieces   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 741 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 165.236.235.130 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:53 pm:        LABLADY: As aformer cult member myself I am speaking for those like you. I was struggling for freedom for many years. Finally, I found it in a very insignificant but very well known little baptist church in Indiana. I had some very caring friends who supported me during this period. I am very grateful for them. I visited this church 3 times. The first time after I left, I had so much of peace that I never had before in decades. Today, I can experience the true love of God as well as other people. It is beautiful. While I was there, i noticed something the media as well as many skeptics will never accept. I had seen few homosexuals being delivered and set free. Every session is being videotaped legally and they are the evidence. Haggard will soon be healed and he will be much stronger and more RIGHTEOUS before God. His wife is awonderful and special person. Anyone else would have left him. But, she is standing firm by his side. This itself will be facilitating his healing.I cannot imagine his future potential. His healing will prove that homosexuality is not genetic.It is a choice that some make and it becomes an addictive and compulsive behaviour.Where is the GAY GENE if they are born this way?   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 637 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.29.177 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:20 pm:        getagrip, I don't think you like to give your own opinions, which is probably smart. I post mine then I have to endure people like bear who get offended and start the personal attacks. So, I think you have the right idea .... ask questions and then step back and watch the fun. Have a good night.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 297 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:26 pm:        That's cool, I was just curious what you thought... No personal attacks. And actually, if you recall some of my interactions (which you have been quite critical of at times) with TRS/Ult1/Info - I make my feelings/opinions known quite "loudly" and quite clearly, depending on the situation. I AM having a good night, it's Monday during football season!   bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2295 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:34 am:        Haggard is gay and will always be gay. The question is whether or not he will continue to live in denial or get real for a change.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 298 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:40 am:        Why, in your opinion, would he admit to meth use or whatever drug he did but lie about homosexuality? Doesn't ring true to me, you don't get a pass in the Christian world for doing but not for having sex with a man. I think he told the truth, he says he did meth and that he is not gay. I believe him.   bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2297 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:53 am:        Actually, he lied about the meth too. He says he just bought it and threw it away, yet there are tapes of him asking for it in such a way that he has obviously asked for it before. He lies about his homosexuality still because, sadly, in his congregation he has likely railed against homosexuality so often that it is still difficult for him to come to terms with it. It is not likely that he has railed against meth as often. Honestly, he even has that gay lisp that is quite common. I have heard it many times before, but never really put 2 and 2 together until recently. He is tormented by his sexuality and if he could just get over the idea the homosexuality is a sin, although not an easy lifestyle, he could truly live a life of integrity. He has been a walking liar and deceiver for years.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 426 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 1:28 am:        Nobody just buys meth out of curiosity and throws it away. Nobody. Haggard is recorded asking for $100 or $200 MORE of meth, yes he does say the word "MORE." I checked with a person who knows the deal on meth, a former addict. A trial sample can be obtained for $20 or $30. A person getting more than $100 worth would be planning a three-day runner. Ted Haggard is gay and he can't admit it because he belongs to a fascist cult that demonizes people who don't conform to their abysmally narrow and bigoted worldview. He is goind into some creepy pseudo-therapy thing with Dobson's ghouls. Ex-gay therapies are a lie, a scam, a cult, a fraud, phony, -- and they don't work. If it was raining and Ted Haggard said it was raining, I would ask three other people before I would agree with him. He's a compulsive habitual liar.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 299 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 8:25 am:        Yeah, I guess I can see your points (about the meth) and to be honest I didn't really listen to the recordings... "that demonizes people who don't conform to their abysmally narrow and bigoted worldview." I hadn't thought of it this way but apparently, I need to incorporate more of this into my own ministry?   lablady2 Advanced Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 971 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 8:44 am:        "I think he told the truth, he says he did meth and that he is not gay. I believe him." Most happily heterosexual men who commit adultery or infidelity do so with heterosexual women. Personally, I don't care if Mr. Haggard is gay or not, but if he isn't, why would he choose to have sex with a man...repeatedly? Plenty of available women out there. If it happened only once or twice, I guess some might say that he was experimenting sexually. Others might say, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 638 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.91 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:19 am:        Most happily heterosexual men who commit adultery or infidelity do so with heterosexual women. Would it be more acceptable if it was?   bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2299 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:38 am:        Nope. He would still be a lying hypocrate.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2040 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.33 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:32 pm:        This is a must see. Ted Haggard says he is the living proof Christ that Christ is real. He recorded this brief testimony to the power of Christ having transformed the "very core of his being" before we learned more about the "core of his being" than anyone wanted to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz6A7_gsq-w&mode=related&search= There is no transforming power from Christ or any other outside agency. It's up to you, you are responsible for your own "transformation" if that is what you want or need. Obviously Ted enjoyed his lifestyle and was a pathological liar. I would wager that even he can't tell when he is lying or telling the truth.   lablady2 Advanced Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 972 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:44 pm:        marta: Being a former fundamentalist, I think the mentality might be that a heterosexual affair would be more understandable but neither would be acceptable.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 303 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:49 pm:        I think it is important to note that while it may be that Haggart (sic) killed fundamentalism in the USA, video killed the radio star...   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2117 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:49 pm:        There is no transforming power from Christ or any other outside agency. It's up to you, you are responsible for your own "transformation" if that is what you want or need. Obviously Ted enjoyed his lifestyle and was a pathological liar. I would wager that even he can't tell when he is lying or telling the truth. TO I love you! You are never change and you visit each thread and just tell them how you see it. We've missed you TO!   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2118 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:51 pm:        "Video Killed the Radio Star" by the Buggles. WOW getagrip, you sure do know your pop culture. First Kirk Cameron and now this- you must be a child of the eighties.... (Message edited by rachelengland on November 21, 2006)   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 429 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:52 pm:        Just like Swaggart. Getagrip: "that demonizes people who don't conform to their abysmally narrow and bigoted worldview." I hadn't thought of it this way but apparently, I need to incorporate more of this into my own ministry? Do you mean incorporate more open and accepting attitude toward gay/lesbian people who may be in your congregation adn feel trapped? I think that would be a good idea. You would get plenty of hostility from those churches that wish to maintain their hostility toward such people but you would also get support and encouragement from others. Many years ago some church leaders came up with the progressively radical idea of not burning witches, then there were some who proposed abolition of slavery, racial integration, acceptance of birth control etc. Things change and we all have to roll with the tide to some extent. GaG, if you were to make some progressive changes with your ministry in that direction I, for one, would think quite highly of you. I'm not a likely convert but I would admire the courage.   bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.186.172 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 7:37 pm:        Okay everyone, time to move on. Even the media has moved on from Haggart -- it's so 5-minutes-ago.com. Michael Richard's "I'm not a racists" is the new topic1   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 440 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:11 pm:        Oh, come on. Swaggart is still funny. You know when your friend is all bummed out over something and you're trying to cheer him up. What do you do? Just say, "Jimmy Swaggart" and he cracks up. Works every time. Years from now when you need to cheer someone up you can just say, "Ted Haggard" and they start laughing. If you really want to be hilarious say, "Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard." Haaahaaahaaahaaaahaaaaa!!!!!!   bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2309 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:38 pm:        "Okay everyone, time to move on. Even the media has moved on from Haggart -- it's so 5-minutes-ago.com." I disaggree. I think it is important for people to see how little of an effect that belief in this idol really does have on the core of a being. Haggard is a perfect of someone who is who he is regardless of how much "faith" he has in a mystical being to "tranform him to his core." The core of a being is either good or bad, with or without Jesus or any other false idol. People are people and they themselves must be who they are and they either perform good works or they don't. Faith in some long dead dude never did nuttin' for nobody! Haggard even looks gay. I hope he finds a way to be who he is and get happy and integral.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 744 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:24 am:        Homosexual behaviour, adultery and fornication all come under the same category of sexual sins. SIN IS A SIN IS A SIN IS A SIN,etc. Haggard is not a homosexual.There is no scientific evidence.Haggard's father has helped hundreds of men and women and their lives have been transformed. He will be transformed and this transformation is occuring all over the world. Those who still condemn Haggard can deny the scientific evidence and bury their heads in sand. The bottom line is either God has the power to transform the hearts of people or He does not.   bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 2311 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:47 am:        He does not. Haggard is living proof.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 441 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 4:58 am:        "He does not. Haggard is living proof." So are many others living proof that belief does not 'cure' 'sinful' behavior. Very scientific and logical. 1. Haggard was a stark-raving fundie. 2. Haggard engaged in 'sinful' behavior according to fundies. 3. Ergo -- fundie-ism does not cure 'sinful' behavior. There you go - the good ol' 1,2, 3. What more do you need? tested -- proven   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 304 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:15 am:        Good morning Blue. While clearly not an atheist, I often see merit/logic/cohesion in what you write. Particularly I enjoy yours and others interchanges with Frankling, whom I hope none of you mistakenly feel represents "mainline" Christianity in ANY WAY. However, Haggard's lifestyle and RECENT actions offer conclusive proof of nothing whatsoever. Here are some "facts" from my own life Blue. 15 years ago I was a raging alcoholic. I was a misogynist, I was racist, I had several alarming, addictive habits that I was unable to address ON MY OWN. I know this because I tried. Repeatedly, with no results on my own. When I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, and recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit. My life began to change. Empowered by this infusion of someone else's power in my own spirit, I began to aggressively attack these failed areas of my life. The results? "Clean" in every area of my life. Instaneous results? Absolutely not, but pretty darn quick. Proof? Not to an atheist, but to the hundreds of people who knew me from childhood, high school or college - the changes God has wrought in me are undeniable. They see the "New Man" the Bible talks about, and are convinced of nothing short of a miracle. Because the changes have made me marvelous and wonderful? Not at all, but because it is evident to those who knew and loved me despite my faults, who knew the depths of my depravity, who knew the blackness of my heart, know now that only God could have brought about these changes in me. Just as football is a game of inches, so life is a game of perspectives. One man's "proof" might bring disdain from another man. For me to deny what occurred that cold, Chicago morning in my basement when I called on God to change me, would make me a liar. I don't care what Haggard did, I don't know the condition of his heart or what he was thinking - but I do KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt the Love of God changed me deeply and profoundly from within. To me and to many who know me and would attest to the changes in my life, my behavior and my relationships it is a proof-positive of a Living and a Loving God. To you and others here, it will be regarded as something else.   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 275 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:36 am:        Franken, You wrote: "Many years ago some church leaders came up with the progressively radical idea of not burning witches". People who did that were religious people who unfortunately called themselves christian but were not real christians. Read the book of Acts in the New Testament and you will see how the real church is like. The New Testament Christians were persecuted but they Never, Never, Never persecuted anyone. You could also read 2 Peter 2:1-3 It talks about false prophets and false teachers who privily shall bring damnable heresies and thought their own greed will make merchandise of you. I personally don't want to listen to those teachers. I test everything with the bible. The book of Acts is a good book to read because it shows how real Christians are and behave.   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 276 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:50 am:        Franken, I forgot to tell you that the false church who burned witches also burned the real Christians during the inquisition. Remember that the The New Testament Christians in the bible were persecuted but they NEVER persecuted anyone and this is the example that I want to follow. I believe that revelation chapters 17 and 18 in the bible refers to the false church. (Message edited by pilgrim on November 22, 2006)   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 444 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 6:28 am:        OK GaG, What you have described is a very typical conversion story. I am not discounting what you have said, but it is still typical. GaG: "Haggard's lifestyle and RECENT actions offer conclusive proof of nothing whatsoever." Actually the Haggard bit, as well as the Swaggard, Bakker, Oral Roberts, Peter Popoff, etc. scandals do represent proof. That proof is that the adherance to religion, whatever that religion may be, does not guarantee a morally superior lifestyle. Tested -- proven. "15 years ago I was a raging alcoholic" Many people have quit drinking in a destructive manner. I happen to be one of them. That does not require a religious coversion. Tested -- proven. "I was a misogynist, I was racist, I had several alarming, addictive habits that I was unable to address ON MY OWN. " Hatered of women or people who have skin color that is not the same as yours is narrow and bigoted. Though overcomming that narrow and bigoted mindset does not require a religious conversion. I have never had such attitudes toward women or those with dark complections and I have never been visited by Jesus Christ, god, or any other deities. One simply does not requrie a religious converion to overcome racism, sexism, or any other form of bigotry. Tested -- proven. "To me and to many who know me and would attest to the changes in my life, my behavior and my relationships it is a proof-positive of a Living and a Loving God. To you and others here, it will be regarded as something else." Yes, I would say that the changes made in your life were of your own making. Not the result of any god or vision but from you. Then let's think about other changes that can be made. I am white, married, monogomous, heterosexual, college-educated, middle class, male, middle-aged, and have no unusual physical anomolies. I happen to be a member of the most privileged class of people in the USA. The only category that I happen to be a minority in is religious -- I am a rationaist-skeptic. Yes, I am an atheist, but who cares? An atheist is merely one who does not believe in gods. Gods are small and irelevant, and in the grand scheme of things -- who cares whether they exist or not? But the point is -- what do I do with my white, male, heterosexual, middle-class, college-educated, etc. privilege? Help those who don't have it. Women, Native-Americans, children, gays, disabled, poor, African-Americans, non-Christians, political radicals, and anyone else who does not fit the fundamentalist Christian right's view of what is "right". That's right, consider the USA analogous to Germany in the 1930s. I am one of the few who is willing to go against the Nazis in favor of true justice. FuckyouAdolf Hitler, FuckyouGeorge W. Bush, FuckyouJesus Christ. sonofabitch.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 445 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 7:01 am:        Pilgrim -- think about it. Don't just refer to an old book that was written a long toime ago, think. Think. Think. The peole who burned witches claimed to be Christians. The people who persecute other people today claim to be Christians. Think. The Bible was used to justify slavery. Think. the Bible was used to justify racial segregation. Think. Maybe the Bible is not the best source to establish morality. Think. Christians are not always the best examples to live by. Think, examine, question, think again. The Bible was written 1200-2500 years ago. Think. It has been translated, expurgated, re-organized, retranslated, edited, rearanged, re-translted, edited again, retranslated, abridged, translated again, interpolated, translated, interpreted, and assumed --- not a document of absolute indisputable truth. Think. Yes, people can and do make the Bible out to be a source of whateverthe<deleted> they want it to say. Think. Explore. Question. (Message edited by dannydawg5 on November 28, 2006)   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 305 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:33 am:        Hi Frank: "Women, Native-Americans, children, gays, disabled, poor, African-Americans, non-Christians, political radicals, and anyone else who does not fit the fundamentalist Christian right's view of what is "right"." I stated that my conversion changed my thinking in these areas, your are stating that now that I am a fundie Christian - I am bigoted. You can't have it both ways. But otherwise, obviously we have a difference in opinion. And I agree, there are millions who have changed in these areas of their lives completely on their own. I did not however, I KNOW exactly Who and What changed me - nothing can ever change what I experienced... I was there when it happened! One question tho, are you calling me an SOB (singular) or JesusChrist, AdolfHitler, GeorgeBush (which would require the plural, SOB's)? Just curious. Happy Thanksgiving to you FrankC. Touch Football with the kids in the AM, Thanksgiving Dinner and NFL all day baby... Much, much to be thankful for in 2006 and much more in store...   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 277 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:02 am:        Franken, I told you more than once that the New Testament Christian were persecuted but they never persecuted anyone. You wrote,"The people who burned witches claimed to be Christians. The people who persecute other people today claim to be Christians. Think. The Bible was used to justify slavery. Think. the Bible was used to justify racial segregation. Think. Maybe the Bible is not the best source to establish morality. Think." Anyone can call themselves Christians if they want but many of then are not christians. You can see an example or real christianity in the book of Acts in the bible a real christian would behave in similar way as believers in the New Testament. I also told you before the people who were involved in promoting, organising and killing other in the inquisition were not christian. They were just part of a false church and not the church of Jesus Christ. The real church was persecuted by this false church and many real christian had been kill in the inquisition. I do not think that they are many real christian in the world. Maybe what you hate is the false organised religion, cults and the false church and not real christians. Maybe I am wrong in saying this.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2125 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:07 am:        Pilgrim ststes:Anyone can call themselves Christians if they want but many of then are not christians. You can see an example or real christianity in the book of Acts in the bible a real christian would behave in similar way as believers in the New Testament That is such a great statement! Many people through the ages have thrown the word christian around with such ease. People can call themselves anything they want and then people like frankenchrist can wrap them all up and treat them all the same way-he shows a lot of hatred and prejudice towards the wrong group of people. R   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 306 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 10:51 am:        Frankenbeans...   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 447 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 4:25 pm:        Gag, No, the s.o.b. was not directed at you or anyone else. It's just a classic conclusion for a rant. The point I was making about the bigotry was not directed at you -- don't take this stuff personally. Perhaps I didn't clarify the intentions of my post, yes it was in response to your post but I meant it more in terms of a person in general, not you or anyone else in particular. I did not say that you are fundie, I was just refering to the fundies and their attitude of bigotry that haapens to be prevalent among that group of people. If the shoe does not fit you -- then don't worry about it, you are not in that class. The point I am making is that one does not need a religious conversion to ovecome attitudes of bigotry. There are bigots religious and non-religious. Religion is not the deciding factor in that area. There are egalitarian and just people religious and non-religious. You give credit to the religion for overcoming the attitudes and behaviors that you once held. All I am pointing out is that these attitudes and behaviors exist within religious and non-religious people. I would say, give yourself the credit, you did it, not the religion. I know that you would not agree with that but I see it a a confusion of causation and correlation. A logical fallacy -- after this, therfore because of this (post hoc, ergo proctor hoc). We see this in people who have gone to faith healers, chiropractors, AA, Scientology, -- fill in the blank. I know that one of the basic tenets of Christianity is that people ought not claim personl victory, they must give the credit to god. I don't agree with that, I think you should take credit for your own hard work.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 448 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 4:34 pm:        Yes Pilgrim and Rachel, I ignored the same old "not real Christian" bit because it is so old and stale and so illogical that it does not need to be addressed. It's called the "no true Scotsman fallacy" and people use this one all the time, not just in terms of Christianity but just about any group of people that one can imagine. Look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Yes there are a million different forms a Christianity and the term is meaningless. The question still remains -- why should I take YOUR word (or your interpretation of what the Bible says) on what a true Christian is? There are plnty out there who would say that you are not a real Christian and they will use the Bible to prove it. Nobody has any better evidence than anyone else -- it's in the Bible -- that doesn't mean anything. The Bible can be and has been used to justify anything you can imagine and the opposite of it too. It's vague, ambiguous and metaphorical you can find whatever you're looking for in it.   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 281 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:14 pm:        Franken, You wrote,Yes Pilgrim and Rachel, I ignored the same old "not real Christian" bit. Thank you for accepting that you ignored this. The only christianity that I describe is what I can see in the book of acts and people follow that simple way of christianity today. The christianity that you described is what I can see in the book of Rev chapters 17 and 18. Big difference!! I also agree with you that many people who call themselves christians misuse the bible. I think that unfortunately many do this for their own gain or because they blinded follow false leaders without questioning them. I do not believe that they are real christians.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 451 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:28 pm:        "I do not believe that they are real christians." And they would say that you are not a real Christian. Who's right? Why? How do I know? Whose interpretation of the Bible is correct? How do you know? Which Bible -- there are a zillion of them. If some leaders are false, then are some true? Which leaders are true then? Why? How do you know? Did you read the Wiki on the 'no true Scotsman'? Think. Always question authority, that is why authority exists -- to be questioned.   getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 308 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.77.188.206 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:47 pm:        I only asked because I can be quite an SOB at times... and I wondered how you knew.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 454 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:56 pm:        LOL! That makes two of us, Getagrip. And I suspect some other might fit the bill as well. Happy Thanksgiving.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 639 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.91 Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:45 am:        My definition of a Christian is one who follows the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 746 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.128.25 Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 3:37 am:        Better definition will be the one who has allowed Himself/Herself to be tried,persecuted as well as suffer injustice and who follows Christ no matter what and yet "Rejoices".   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 747 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.128.25 Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 3:52 am:        Frankenchrist: You said, you have a college degree. Perhaps in political Science. If only you had studied some logic and advanced biology, you would not be posting such RANTINGS. I am writing this after I had done thorough research on the biology of homosexuality after my career was ruined by my Assistant who happened to be a lesbian. It is a long story. Even if I give you all the evidence, you will never believe me because of your hatred and Anger. Alright, you can ban Christianity. Beware of ISlamofascists. they are coming. Christians have allowed everyone including Atheists like you to believe and practise whatever you want to. They will cut off your throat if you refuse to become a Muslim. This day is coming and you will remember me on that day.   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 282 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 5:25 am:        Inkorrekt, I think that it would be very interesting to be able to read your whole story if you have the time to write about it and if you feel comfortable to share your story with us. Franken, In agreement with Marta I will say that one way to see who is a real Christian is to see Jesus life. Jesus was persecuted but he did not persecute anyone if we do no follow his example we can not be Christians. The New Testament Christians did follow Jesus example and teaching and were persecuted but they NEVER persecuted anyone either. You can see clearly that people in the middle ages who persecuted real christians and other people during the inquisition followed another gospel, another Christ and another spirit.   frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 5:52 pm:        So one has to be persecuted and persecute no one in order to be a 'true christian'(TM). What is persecution? The definition does not work in contemporary society. You still have the problem of all kinds of people claiming to be 'real christians' and insiting that others are not -- still the 'no true scotman fallacy'. What exactly does it mean to 'follow Christ's example'? -- too ambiguous. You just have to resign to letting a christian be defined as anyone who calls themselves a christian. If you want to be more specific you have to define what kind of christian you are. Going through life being persecuted and not persecuting anyone -- hmmmm. How is one to do that? Inko, my degree is in psychology. I have studied logic. My knowlege of logic anables me to see some very serious logical problems with many of your posts. Ad hominems, slippery slope, false analogy, confusion of correlation and causation, appeal to authority, etc. So you studied homosexuality in biological terms? Good. what were you findings? Who were you primary sources? Paul Cameron, by chance? James Dobson? The Ayatollah Khomeni? The Bible? Lay it on me, let's see how valid your research is. It must be really ultra good and convincing if a dirty sinful lesbian saw fit to ruin your career, huh?   kimberlyfredrick Intermediate Member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 264 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.187.23.243 Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 9:25 pm:        Marta, You are exactly right. Look around today at Chrisitians and you will find no Christ in them. Yahshua would not recognize is followers today. He did warn that upon his arrivaval would he find much faith. If we do not emulate the first Chrisitians then what are we emulating?   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 283 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:51 am:        Franken, You said in previous messages that the church used to burn witches and I told you that during the inquisition they did the same to real christians ie they did not behave at all like the New Testament Christians. Although the New Testament Christians were persecuted they did NOT persecute anyone and this is the opposite what they catholic church did during unholy inquisition. To see what real christianity is you need to read the source document ie The New Testament this book will also clearly show you what you need to do if you ever want to become a real christian. I suggest that you read the whole New Testament if you have not done so already and decide for yourself what is a real christian.   kimberlyfredrick Intermediate Member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.187.23.243 Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 9:20 am:        Pilgrim, May I ask you if you are a Christian Sabbath keeper(You keep Friday sunset to Saturday sunset as required by the 4th commandment)? Thank you in advance!   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 284 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 2:10 pm:        kimberlyfredrick, I never heard about the Christian Sabbath keeper before I read your post.   kimberlyfredrick Intermediate Member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.69.139.12 Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:31 pm:        Jesus and his disciples/Apostles were the first Christians right? They kept ALL 10 commandments of God and the Holy Feast Days. This is what I thought you were referring to when you stated to Franklin to be a real Chrisitan you needed to read and understand the New Testement. Sorry, my bad!   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 285 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:19 pm:        kimberlyfredrick, I meant as far as I remember I never heard of a denomination called Sabbath Keeper.   kimberlyfredrick Intermediate Member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 273 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.38 Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:27 pm:        Sorry, I never meant to imply that there was one. I was merely asking if you kept the sabbath. Sorry, my bad again! (I have a head cold and I think it has effected my brain....LOL)   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 286 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:47 am:        kimberlyfredrick, As far as I know the New Testament Christians use to try to rest on Saturdays instead of Sundays and this was changed by the Catholic church. I tried to rest one day per week, Saturday is a good day do this however this might not be practical for some people like doctors and nurses. I believe that God made the sabbath for man and not man for the sabbath. I believe that it is very important for our health to rest at least one day per week however some people like nurses in the hospitals can not rest every Saturday so to rest another day in the week will be fine in such cases. Read Mark 2:27-28 Read also Mark 2:23-28 and Mark 3:1-6.   kimberlyfredrick Intermediate Member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 281 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.40 Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:51 am:        God bless you Pilgrim! Thank you for addressing my post in Christian love!!!!   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.130.68 Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:28 pm:        FRANKENCHRIST: "I am one of the few who is willing to go against the Nazis in favor of true justice. FuckyouAdolf Hitler, FuckyouGeorge W. Bush, FuckyouJesus Christ.sonofabitch". What makes you believe that the christians supported the Nazis? Whatever was done to Jews is barbaric cruelty inflicted upon one group of people who have been struggling for their existence throughout history.Total injustice against humanity was inflicted upon them. For your kind information, Hitler was not aChristian. But, he was a Satanist who strongly believed in the survival of the Superior Aryan race which is based on Evolution. Bonhoefer was a dedicated christian minister who organized a campaign to oppose Hitler and his wicked passions. Hitler imprisoned him, tortured and executed him. This is what Hitler did to a true christian. What you are presenting here is misinformation. The anger manisfested by your language does not reflect your scholarship at all. The language you are writing here is even below that of a street BUM or someone living in a dump. Psychology is not an empirical science like Physics, chemistry, mathematics and biology. Yet, psychologists enjoy 6 figure salary only for listening to the pain and suffering of their clients. Clients only have the satisfaction that someone listened to them. Nothing happens to them. All that they get is a label which they have to carry on for the rest of their lives.Perhaps you are not aware of what happened in 1973 at the APA.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 642 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.43.144 Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 2:14 pm:        Marta, I apologize for being rude in my posts. It was not my intent, but after reading them again, I know that they were. I was wrong, and I really need to stick to the content and not attack an individual. I am guilty of this, and I do ask for your forgiveness.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 756 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:41 pm:        TO PILGRIM: I was asked to hire an assistant. I was given few resumes. Out of them all, I found one which had all the qualifications I was looking for. I talked to her. She seemed to be alright. She also had high recommendations from a well known university. So, I hired her and began to work with her so that she would pick up whatever I wanted her to do.Within a month, she brought a news article that described special rights to homosexuals.I was too naive. I told her that these people are men tally ill and gioving them special rights is ridiculous. I also told her that Science and logic do n ot support this behaviour and I do not support. She at once asked me if I would fire her because she was gay. I told her thaqt the company was not interested in her personal life. She was hired primarily because she was qualified and she could do the work. I made it very clear toi her that as long as she did the work, I would not have any problem at all. TO BE CONTINUED.............................   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 192 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.240.114.122 Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 8:58 pm:        I just read this thread for the first time and want to make a comment on Haggard - just to get it off my chest. I can't believe how squeaky clean he has looked in the past, seeming to have an operational sensitive conscience, yet has deliberately lied and misrepresented himself about so many things. He knowingly lied about his involvement with the New Apostles and prophets, knowingly lied about his conversion to the core, knowingly misrepresented himself to his congregation about not wanting any secrets among them, or whatever it was, while carrying on his homosexual activity for probably many years and drugs for who knows how long. He was one of the highest ranking leaders of the religious right, yet he has lived his life as an habitual liar. Hard to compute. Btw, he is not a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists are scripturally defined by a whole lot more than being against homosexuality. He is globalist working for the one world church like so many other compromised church leaders today. I don't think he knows what Christianity is any more, and I don't think he knows who he is. He is one messed up guy.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 758 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.130.68 Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 10:48 pm:        TO PILGRIM: The Continued. ………………. Since then, she did exactly the opposite of what I wanted her to do. I talked to her. It became worse. Then, I talked to my boss.It became much worse. Finally, I had to notify the President that I made a world mistake in hiring her and that there would be a possibility of a law suit and I did not want to be in the middle of it. I warned him that she was still in probation and some thing needed to be done. Otherwise, it would be more complicated and more expensive. . He was very responsive. He asked me to give her written assignments and wanted me to monitor her performance and report to him. I gave her very very simple assignments wh, ch did not require any skill at all. She did not perform. But, she had someone else do them. She also did few things to aggravate me. I wrote my report and the recommended a replacement for her. The President approved this. But, my boss (falsified his credentials who was married 5 times) the blamed me for all the problems and all that happened was her probation was extended by 1 month. After this, she became very arrogant and began to fight with me almost every day. I was miserable. Another episode: Before all this happened, in I began anew project for based upon my own concept. My boss who was not a chemist always discouraged me that this would not work. It was a big challenge for me. I took it and proved by experiments I was right. After I showed the evidence, he told me that that was exactly what he was planning to do for the past 10 years. He did not do it because he did not know how to do it. I could not wait any longer. I took the matter to the President and explained how he discouraged me till I did it and after I did it, he tried to get the credit for himself. The President asked me to get the work done. Since then, my boss always wanted to kill my project. When the controversy with my lesbian assistant came up, he took her on his side and began to work against me behind me. My mother passed away and I returned after attending the funeral. I was told that my project was terminated and wall she had her job for many more years as she was supporting her lover. Since then, I could never get back to my field of work. Everyone is talking about the special rights for homosexuals. Who is protecting our rights and specially mine as a supervisor who attempted to correct her poor performance.   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 306 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 1:40 pm:        inkorrekt, Thank you for sharing your experience. You clearly showed that it was NOT your intention to discriminate against her when you said the following. "I told her that the company was not interested in her personal life. She was hired primarily because she was qualified and she could do the work. I made it very clear toi her that as long as she did the work, I would not have any problem at all". It also looked liked your assistant bullied you went you try to help her to correct her performance at work and then almost daily. A lot of people unfortunately do get bully at work. Am I right if I think that your project was controversial and probably the president wanted an easy life and that is why your project was terminated. This is unfortunately the way of the world. When something becomes controversial managers opt for an easy life and solution rather than making a fair decision. Did you belong to an union? Sometimes the Workers Union can help in these situations. I will be praying to God to help you to get another job.   pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 307 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 5:36 pm:        Incorrekt, You wrote on post number 747, "I am writing this after I had done thorough research on the biology of homosexuality after my career was ruined by my Assistant" I do no know what type work you were doing so I was perhaps wrongly wondering if your project was connected with the research that you did after your career was ruined. I just wanted you to share with us was the details finding and conclusions of your research on biology of homosexuality if you feel comfortable to do so. I am very sorry that your career was ruined in that way. Blessings pilgrim   ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 2781 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 24.17.78.60 Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 5:22 pm:        Haggard is surely not the end of fundamentalism in the U.S. But hopefully he will have contributed to it's removal from politics. Fundamentalism and politics equal a failure for the people. The recent congressional election prove that the people here are most displeased with the track the "moral majority" set us on back in 2000. The same thing has just happened in Iran. Another blowhard fundamentalist nutjob leader was put in check by the voting public. The opposition party all but swept the local elections there. It seems that for all the talk of blessings and transformation, nothing changes when we elect these guys. It doesn't seem to matter what religion it is. And this Haggard had a weekly conference call with Bush apparently. Yikes! I can just picture that conversation, "Hey Teddy, you're doing a fine job, fine job. Me and Rummy are here, having a Cuban. Hey, what does God think I should do next? I'm starting to run out of ideas myself..."   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 202 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.64.186.85 Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 6:38 pm:        Again....Haggard is not a fundamentalist...far from it. These theocratic globalists use 'family' and 'moral' values to attract and deceive their followers into thinking they are promoting Christianity when they definitely are not. They all have compromised the faith in order to become theocrats which Jesus was not and didn't teach his Apostles or other followers to be. Much to the contrary. I have wished this situation would lead Haggard to the real Christian experience that definitely does transform lives.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2167 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.96.51.125 Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 10:17 pm:        "I have wished this situation would lead Haggard to the real Christian experience that definitely does transform lives." Ted Haggard, Lonny Lathan, and the scores of other lying preacher/priest sex and drug addicts that are in the news practically every week are strong indicators that the transforming power of the Christian experience is non-existent for the Christian leadership. These are the teachers and care-takers of the faith and faithful. It doesn't work.   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 203 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.64.186.85 Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 10:42 pm:        They have compromised the faith to such an extent they don't know what Christianity is anymore, if they ever did.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2169 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.96.51.125 Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 12:08 am:        But let me guess, you've got the real deal and your leaders are all walking in lock step with the holy spirit? Honesty is going to have to overtake wishful thinking if someone is ever going to admit to themselves that they really don't have a good reason for believing in the supernatural, something they convey to others as eternal truth. In proclaiming something as the ultimate truth that you yourself take on faith (in the absence of evidence or in spite of it) you are committing an act of intellectual dishonesty which contradicts the principles the Christian faith gives lip service to don't you think? It just doesn't work amigo.   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 204 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.64.186.85 Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 12:15 am:        Maybe one day you'll know the reality of conversion and regeneration.   trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 809 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 11:38 am:        While the double standard in peoples eyes continues who say nothing of Clinton sexual predator, and allow Jesse Jackson the title of Reverend(yuk) after he came to the white house to counsel Clinton after Monika Lewinski with his pregnant mistress on his arm, following man and allowing men to remain in leadership who show time after time their dark true character is just a lack of character for the followers. If Billy Graham falls, the pope, Mother Theresa falls, or anyone falls God is still God. The lights and power don't dim from heaven or from God. The word is still true. Gods love is still overcoming and NEVER FAILING. 1Cor13 Though a thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand, but it shall not come near you. Only a spectator shall you be [yourself inaccessible in the secret place of the Most High] as you witness the reward of the wicked. Because you have made the Lord your refuge, and the Most High your dwelling place, There shall no evil befall you, nor any plague or calamity come near your tent. Psalm 91:7-10 The problem comes when we follow a man. All men are fallible but God, His word, and His Spirit is infallible. I can only pray that Ted Haggard has Godly counsesl and is open to receive Gods love. I know he had a problem but the one he hurt the most is himself. Let's quit following men, and follow God, know His word and be led by His Holy Spirit. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God these are the children of God" Romans 8 Let's demand accountability of these leaders and others to help them. Lets demand a place be put together where these people and anyone in ministry can go and get true help before they come to the end of their rope( by the same organization that Haggard was the President of). The National Association of Evangelicals could do much to bring help to all these pastors and ministers to find fellowship and love of God and be freed from their bondage.   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 205 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.64.186.85 Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 1:56 pm:        Thanks for the encouragenment of God's word, trsrinheaven...it puts everything into proper perspective. Unfortunately the NAE has left the path of the pure gospel and has an agenda that has nothing to do with it. To the contrary, it is working to help create the global religion and government of antichrist. I believe if Ted Haggard had stuck with the Lord and him only, he would have had the Spirit's overcoming power for regeneration. As it is he has proven beyond doubt that his way was empty, powerless and of no benefit to himself or others. It's all good sounding words with no power. Only the truth can set us free.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2171 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.43 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 9:15 am:        trns, You've using a logical fallacy known as the straw-man argument. Ted Haggard's duplicity is unimportant in relation to the false premise that there is a lack of criticism of Clinton and Jackson. There is of course no connection between Haggard, Clinton, or Jackson other than the false one you inferred. Contrary to what you want us to believe, there has been plenty of criticism of Clinton, Jackson, and others in public office and in the public eye. Much of it however, occurs at the time of their troubles. Ted Haggard an extremely vocal Christian who as an anti-gay preacher, publicly denounced honest homosexuals in the pulpit and in Washington. He was publicly fighting against honest, legal gay marriages while privately hiring illegal gay prostitutes. Ted Haggard was a "spiritual leader" of thousands of people who trusted them with their children, their money, and their 'spiritual' direction. However, in reality he was a illegal drug user and frequenter of male prostitutes. Since this forum is set up to discuss these kinds of issues, that is, duplicitous religious leaders and movements, it makes perfect sense to discuss Ted Haggard here. I imagine that while Clinton was President he was criticized in FACTNet Message Board » Political, Governmental, Military or Terrorist Organisations as Bush is now. The fact of the matter is that we are getting a good look "behind the curtain" of religion. Catholic priests chronically abusing children and covering it up for how long? Centuries? Evangelical preachers secret lives are being revealed as frequenting homosexual prostitutes, female prostitutes, pornographic book stores, and using illegal drugs.* Just look at the facts, the trends, and widespread nature of religious fraud. Christianity is a hollow lie used by these dishonest priests and preachers to rape and rob the flock. trns, you are constantly presenting things here as "truth" that are obvious lies. You are either one of the most naive people here or one of the most dishonest. It doesn't surprise me that you want to divert attention from the outing of religious defrauders, liars, and hypocrites and gloss over the utter and complete failure of Christianity in these people's lives and your own. *Haggard, Swaggart, Layton, etc.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2437 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 10:27 am:        Truth be told these are all men(if we can really call them that) with weakness and the ones who are convicting are usually the guiltiest of all...Humans often hide behind a mask of spirituality in order to cover up their worldly desires! It is especially hard for those who are in leadership and spiritual high places- the world places them on pedestals and they are after all just human beings, many who have been sexually abused and used in their youth... I believe when they are found out-they need to step down from a place of authority and get into rehab and then find another vocation that suits them well-if you can't handle the temptation remove yourself far from it!!!! R   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 206 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.151.243.63 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 2:13 pm:        Rachel...unfortunately these men have worked long and hard to put themselves on a pedestal and stay there. Also unfortunate is that they have skewed he gospel to include a political agenda that the Lord's gospel is clearly missing. Is it any wonder they have lost touch with the Lord's supernatural transforming power. Jesus did not come to exact a religious political mandate over anyone. He said his kingdom is not of this world and came to save and bring the lost into his. These religious right leaders are as far off base with Christ's gospel as is any unsaved sinner. The more public exposure they get, the more it shows and they end up looking like the hypocrites they are. They seriously need a refresher course in Jesus' Christianity 101 teaching concerning his kingdom. Only when they honor and abide in it alone and align their ministries with it, instead of trying to revise it to conform to their worldly political agenda, will they get back into rightstanding with God so have access to the life transforming power in Jesus Christ. I still hope Ted Haggard will. Sometimes when we take a fall as long and hard as his, we will open our eyes and heart to God's truth and will for us.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2445 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 2:24 pm:        I agree anony, I once had a teacher who told me-you may have to hit rock bottom before you can look up and find God again. (Message edited by rachelengland on December 26, 2006)   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2184 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.45 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 4:35 pm:        You folks don't get it. Haggard didn't fall. He never was "up" to begin with. He didn't hit rock bottom, he was a bottom feeder. He was phony as a three dollar bill. He was caught! He had been seeing this one man and snorting meth with him for three years! He said himself he has "struggled" with these problems since childhood. He might as well have said he has been engaging in this type of behavior all of his adult life. That isn't a falling away! This is Haggard's life-style and he was caught. Otherwise he would be in the pulpit now.   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 207 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.151.243.63 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 4:47 pm:        Haggard fell from his self-created pedestal. Maybe he will now realize that his way and agenda are not Christian at all and are powerless to save anyone from anything.   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 208 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.151.243.63 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 4:59 pm:        There have always been many in the ministry who have never been truly converted at all. I'm not naming anybody but I think there are many of those today in leadership...many. Or they would not be promoting their worldly agendas that have nothing to do with the Lord's gospel and commission to the church. They are a bunch of self-serving double-talkers and have a lot of unlearned Christians fooled.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2456 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.55 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 5:12 pm:        I agree-they have completely disregarded the message of Christ and use Christianity for self gain and treat it as if it were a business... R   gatordave Senior Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 1901 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.38.117.34 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:56 am:        Yes "rachel" they are all mostly men with women by their side like Tammy Fay and what about Popoff's wife behind the scene in the balcony feeding him information via a hidden microphone in their fraud. Many women quietly behind the scene outright committing fraud and/or a party to it but, authorities don't like prosecuting these sneaky women like the police chief's wives, politician's wives, director of the board of education's wife and school principal daughter, the female cops and cop's wives, women politicians, nurses, school teachers and principals, lawyers, prosecutors, , justices of the peace, judges wives, minister's wives, firefighter's wives etc., etc., in the pyramid fraud of the decade that swept just about institution including heavily in the churches: the "Women Empowering Women" pyramid fraud. dave ...President www.crimebustersnow.com gatoraid@sympatioc.ca 905-963-3389 24/7 We return your calls toll free in North America and 22 countries world-wide (including Australia) and we help as many as we can world wide, to avoid being ripped off by unconscionable criminal scammers like these Wolves in sheep's clothing permeating the Christian movement. Or "Judas Goats" whichever you feel the most appropriate!!! BTW it has started again in the London Ontario Hospital at twice the entry. $10,000 with an $80,000 payout for 1 "go 'round" and the corrupt cops still ignoring it.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2193 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.57 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:03 am:        gd, Excellent points. Mrs. Popoff's performance on the Randi video is as cold and heartless as anything I've heard. There are plenty female opportunists who have gotten in on the religion for money con-job. The long list goes way back, everyone from Aimee Semple McPherson to Meyer. Honestly though, giving her the benefit of the doubt, I think rachel just wasn't thinking about being gender pc when she wrote that. I don't think she really meant to imply that only men are involved.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2457 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:26 am:        No, I did not mean to imply that-but I am glad you pointed those women(bad,bad girls) out gd, many enjoy the "spoils" of these ministries.   ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 2783 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 24.17.78.60 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:20 pm:        It's a strange irony isn't it? Atheists wanting to warn christians of their gay, drug addict, and or bamboozling/fraudulent leaders, while those very christians want to warn atheists of eternal damnation if they refuse to follow. Everybody wants to save everybody else from themselves. And Trsinheaven, we already know that everything any right wing and or religious hypocrite has ever done or will ever do, pales in comparison the Clinton getting a hummer in the White House. That goes without saying. Clearly Bubba is and was the devil, and deserves our criticism every time a priest touches a child, or a fake evengelist is exposed, or a gay politician crusades against gays. It can all be traced back to Bill Clinton. Yessireee. Bill Clinton is news even when the news is Ted Haggard, or Scooter Libby, or Jack Abramoff. We can always deflect back to Bill. Right?   anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 214 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.142.153.79 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:44 pm:        Atheists aren't interested in 'saving' anybody from anything. They have simply resented the hypocrisy of many Christians. I think it's interesting that it was the Christian Right that worked like the devil to expose Bill Clinton and brought this country 8 years of hell with all the controversy. Clinton has ended up smelling fine - he's still Clinton, politically brilliant and personally engaging according to the world's standards, a lot more real imo than the totally repugnant Dobsons etc so intoxicated with their false sense of self-righteousness that they can't smell their own stink and think they are to rule this country and the world.They are by far the more diabolical imo. Jesus came to seek and save the lost, not put them under condemnation and the rule of elitist so-called Christians who are trying to supplant God's authority in dealing with the world. That sounds more like satan to me...and it is.

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