NO ANSWERS

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post True or False missionary_lady 12  1  1-15-07  4:47 pm Response to Yoeman missionary_lady 48  1  11-23-06  2:09 pm   Start New Thread

Author Message   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1285 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.96.213 Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 10:15 pm:        I have noticed Prax and Dowen talk a lot but have no answers for all the things "other" people have reported wrong about HH. Thought I would start a new post to see if maybe they could address the questions, and Accusations OTHER people make... Do I need to name them or can Prax and Dowen remember? No don't get side tracted harping on me...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 726 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 11:13 pm:        ML, You insult the intelligence of any poor reader who happens upon this website. Praxulah, myself, and others, have answered your "questions" over and over and over and over. Forgive us in growing weary of answering your treacherous post's. After all, no matter what we say, you will bury it in your repetitive post's and age old schoolyard tactics of name calling and taunting. Sorry, but your post's have tumbled into a dismal abyss of frantic nonsense. Forgive me for not desiring to dignify your "questions" with direct answers. If there are any serious, earnest seekers of Truth out there, I will be happy to humbly endeavor to answer their questions at dowen21@msn.com .   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1290 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.89.14 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 7:03 am:        My questions have never been answered however I did not ask for my questions to be answered I ask that questions of others be answered. I recieved 3 e mails yesterday and others are recieving e mails...because neither you nor Prax has the answers...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1291 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.89.14 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 7:16 am:        My questions have never been answered however I did not ask for my questions to be answered I ask that questions of others be answered. I recieved 3 e mails yesterday and others are recieving e mails...because neither you nor Prax has the answers...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1292 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.89.14 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 7:23 am:        since you are on my case: Now, with all those things said here at factnet, let it be known that I refuse to make my church a prison, I refuse to drive my people to commit suicide and drive them to killing their own children because of pressure. I refuse to mistreat people and scream in their faces and prophecy destruction because we may not agree on something. I refuse to get up in funerals and comment on people’s sex life. I refuse to scream and point my finger in people’s face. I refuse to separate families, cause siblings not to speak to each other over some doctrinal difference. I refuse to lie and say I have some new revelation from the Lord for the last days. I refuse to keep my people from knowing what is happening in our world. I refuse to deny higher education to our people. I refuse to stomp out of service because someone doesn’t sing my favorite song. I refuse to say if someone leaves my church they are divorcing Christ. I refuse to make fun of other churches and peoples. The world is full of “sick” people. They are in need of a real Christian experience not being brainwashed into some cult that keeps them inside. REAL Christians do not have to live behind hypocrisy, in fear of group leaders, Real Christians don’t have to make up some mock meeting to appeal to some certain visitor. Real Christianity draws people to Christ not to some jesus in the flesh type leader. I pledge to preach Jesus and the gospel He left for us to preach...Remember it is not so much sacrifice that He is interested in it is mercy...He himself said those words...I saw no mercy at HH...and YOU dowen said you were one in a thousand...that is your own words...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1293 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.89.14 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 7:58 am:        Lots of people would like for you to explain death covenant...and why if a person leaves there are they divorcing Christ?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 254 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.190 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 8:43 am:        Simple question: According to HH doctrine, how are members of HH saved? Let's leave other churches out of this and answer this simple question. According to HH doctrine, how are members of HH saved?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 727 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.120 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 11:01 am:        By the Blood of Jesus. End of discussion. ------------------------------------------------- ML, Your frantic rash of posting and arrogant demands of "answers" will not hasten my responses. Please bite your tongue and settle down a bit.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1297 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.23.223 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 11:20 am:        I am quite old and settled down just lots of people are reading here and several have sent e mails to me so we thought the answer should be posted...sorry you don't understand questions...THE question was ACCORDING TO HH doctrine how are MEMBERS saved? Your answer is WRONG>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already forgot their doctrine...oh yes you must be reading from questions visitors ask...lol Why get so upset with me it was not me that asked the question...however our dear readers see how you change things to try to make HH right. Shall we look at their teachings and find out or do you just want to put it here or shall we quote from HH teaching?????????????   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1298 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.23.223 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 11:26 am:        I am quite old and settled down just lots of people are reading here and several have sent e mails to me so we thought the answer should be posted...sorry you don't understand questions...THE question was ACCORDING TO HH doctrine how are MEMBERS saved? Your answer is WRONG>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already forgot their doctrine...oh yes you must be reading from questions visitors ask...lol Why get so upset with me it was not me that asked the question...however our dear readers see how you change things to try to make HH right. Shall we look at their teachings and find out or do you just want to put it here or shall we quote from HH teaching?????????????   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 728 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.120 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 11:52 am:        There you go again with your mocking tone and petty condescension. You beg for an answer, then proclaim it to be "WRONG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>". Sorry, but I really don't have the time or patience to tolerate you talking down your nose at me. Trying to have an adult conversation with you is like trying to herd cats. Nobody can do it. You are all over the board, jumping here, jumping there, if something doesn't suit you you turn up your nose at it and belittle it. There is no form, no context, no guidelines and no boundaries. Your approach to HH is a madhouse, chaotic free-for-all. You refuse to abide by even the most generous of "rules of engagement". Sigh. If your approach to HH is in any way a true example of how Christian's are supposed to deal with disagreements within the Body, then I am not so sure I want to be a Christian. Writing with a heavy heart, DOwen.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1299 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.23.223 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 11:56 am:        So, it is by the blood of Jesus...doubt if HH members have ever heard that version...maybe I can have some tracts printed up and sent to them...or maybe better since you discuss all factnet HH posts with them send to me in writing that that is what they believe because THAT is not what I have in writing...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 729 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.120 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 1:15 pm:        Sigh. There you go again with the petty condescension. Briefly, let's look at one thing you said; "So, it is by the blood of Jesus..." Yup, it sure is. Thanks for the confirmation. "[I] doubt if HH members have ever heard that version..." Mrs. Alvear, please read my first couple post's on this board. They dealt, in part, with your above accusation. Like I have said, your "questions" have already all been answered. Please, give it a rest.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1300 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.0.131 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 2:06 pm:        ARE YOU SAVED ACCORDING TO hh DOCTRINE? AND YOU NEED TO REREAD I DID NOT ASK THE QUESTION FOREVER HIS DID.... ...fh DID NOT ASK CONFIRMATION THE QUESTION WAS HH DOCTRINE....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1301 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.0.131 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 2:11 pm:        ARE YOU SAVED ACCORDING TO hh DOCTRINE? AND YOU NEED TO REREAD I DID NOT ASK THE QUESTION FOREVER HIS DID.... ...fh DID NOT ASK CONFIRMATION THE QUESTION WAS HH DOCTRINE....   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 730 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.120 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 2:49 pm:        Wow. What's with all the yelling? Yes, I am Saved.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1302 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.80 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 3:44 pm:        According to HH are you saved? not yelling...sorry it was caps...I post on the run...today we had an elderly pastor pass away...quite suddenly...so I really didn't even notice it was on caps...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1303 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.47.130 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 3:50 pm:        Daniel, you know that HH does not consider you saved...I know you are trying "to save face" here but we all know the TRUTH...Remember truth will stare us in the eye on judgment day... Just tell the TRUTH about HH...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 731 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 8:45 pm:        ML, There is something we must get straight. I am not here because I want HH to like me. I am not here to "defend" HH, and I surely not am not here to be their "spokesperson". I am here because I see an injustice, no, atrocity being perpetrated against folks I consider my brothers. You are exactly right, Truth will stare each and every one of us in the eye on judgement day. That is why I am here. You desire me to "tell the Truth about HH". OK, let's start with you and your merry band. I will answer your question about whether or not HH "considers me saved", but first I would like for you, FH, UG, OW, TH etc. etc. to tell me what "being saved" actually means. Please, at least two of you, give me your versions of Salvation. Each of you have taken it upon yourselves to attack HH for their version of Salvation. Why don't several of you share your own versions first, then I will respond. ForeverHis, you directly asked me if HH considers me "Saved". Why don't you start by telling me what "Saved" means to you. (Message edited by dowen on October 04, 2006)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1304 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.125.201 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:03 pm:        Cannot answer can you???????????   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1305 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.125.201 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:06 pm:        Dowen has learned the trick of the trade....   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 732 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:09 pm:        No tricks, only an earnest question. I can, and will, answer your question. Just answer mine first.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1306 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.125.201 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:20 pm:        Not their spokesman???????? You yourself said you discuss every post with them...I really don't remember asking you why you were here...maybe my memory fails me... However we are waiting for your answer.....   seekingglory Junior Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:26 pm:        Salvation, according to Homestead Heritage; or in this case we should say Homestead Ministries; is complicated and difficult. It is not explained to the public nor revealed to new members until they have been indoctrinated to suit the Homestead leaders thought process because it is completely foreign to normal Christian beliefs and contrary to scripture. If they told people the Homestead beliefs up front most people would run for their lives. They teach that salvation is a course one must enter and participate in and follow Homestead teachings and if one fails to complete the Homestead developed course then salvation is lost and you are damned. They teach grace is for the weak minded and most all Christians not under the Homestead umbrella are lost. When you die their ‘Apostle’ will decide if you made it to heaven and he will declare his decision to the congregation at your funeral. This is my understanding and the way I was taught by them. I’ve been gone for 5 years so maybe it has changed but I have not heard as such. If anything I hear they are tightening the rope. Kinda sick when you really think about it. And to think they have so many people really falling for it. Glad to know Prax and Daniel are not that stupid. They may be defending them but at least they have left them and broke free from that bondage.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1307 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.125.201 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:26 pm:        Not their spokesman???????? You yourself said you discuss every post with them...I really don't remember asking you why you were here...maybe my memory fails me... However we are waiting for your answer.....   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 733 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:29 pm:        I am awaiting your answer. You have taken the prerogative to ask what HH's version of Salvation is, so what is so hard about telling us what your version of Salvation is? Come on, tell us. After you tell us, I will answer your question. And yes, I am NOT HH's spokesperson. I discuss with me dad, at length, the barrage of accusations posted here. That in no way makes me an HH spokesperson. I'm still waiting for your version of "salvation".   seekingglory Junior Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:30 pm:        It is an appalling sinister philosophy that will in fact endanger the eternity of many of their followers. That’s right Homestead member, you, the one reading this. You are being misled, you know it, your gut feeling tells you this; God is trying to get the message to you; but you’re too proud or too scared to do anything about it. You are so deeply involved you can’t see a way out although you know it just ain’t right. You think if you just hang on it will get better. You are mistaken. It ain’t gonna change. I had a sister once tell me she was very unhappy but knew she could never escape. Her home was there. Her job was there. Her extended family was there. She saw no way out. I pray for her often. I’ll tell you all the same as I told her.... it’s your life and your eternity you’re risking. So do as you wish. But don’t blame anyone else when you walk up and are not acknowledged on judgment day. Neither Blair nor Howard nor Gary nor Joel nor anyone else can stand there on your behalf. You are on your on. But then it will be just a wee bit late to change your mind. Don’t take my word for it. Ask the tens of thousands who would tell you the truth or ask the 12 or so who control you now. But then you can’t because they won’t give you the space to ask anyone else. The rope is pretty tight. The control is suffocating. But when you bury your head you find air down there so you stay put. And you think all is well and you’re already in Paradise on earth. It’s just a harsh Paradise. Your family and/or friends on the outside try to tell you different, but hey, they don’t know anything. Think.....Think hard and pray. Stand back and really look at everything. Then decide where you are and where you should be. They are going to try to convince you to stay. They talk a smooth talk. It sounds pretty. They are masters of deceit. But if you’re fortunate you will see through all the icing. Think how many have left. And how many of those came back? Virtually NONE. Because once outside you can really see the truth and it makes you mad. Mad at yourself for being so gullible. And mad at them for what they have done to you and yours. So give it much thought and prayer. And when and if you finally get the courage.....RUN.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 256 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:44 pm:        Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Saved: Having received salvation. All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and therefore in need of salvation. *************** Salvation, Greek: soteria Definition: deliverance, preservation, safety, deliverance from the molestation of enemies in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation of Messianic salvation salvation as the present possession of all true Christians future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God. (taken from Strongs)   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 734 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:52 pm:        Hello gloryseeker, All of your bravado and trashtalking aside, I have to say, I agree with parts of what you are saying. When I boil down your post, I get this; Think hard, pray hard, consider and reconsider. Seek Truth, hunt it down, stake your life on it, and trust it with all your heart. Those are things I strive to do everyday. Where you and I part ways is when you tumble into the abyss of personal attacks and character assassinations. GS, you are honorably trying to attack the enemy here, but you are chasing your tail in attacking HH. They are harmless. Changing gears, Please tell us your version of Salvation. I have challenged Mrs. Alvear to tell us her version, why don't you tell us your's?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 257 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 10:17 pm:        Foreverhis: Simple question: According to HH doctrine, how are members of HH saved? Let's leave other churches out of this and answer this simple question. According to HH doctrine, how are members of HH saved? DOwen: } ForeverHis, you directly asked me if HH considers me "Saved". Why don't you start by telling me what "Saved" means to you. No that is NOT what I asked you; not even close. read again...above... the question I asked! "According to HH doctrine, how are members of HH saved?" I played your game and answered your question first even though I asked you first.. I answered in the post above what "saved" means to me. Tag, now your it! I still love you, FH   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 735 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 10:33 pm:        Please accept my apology ForeverHis. I meant to say Missionary Lady. You two do swirl together at times, but that is no excuse. Again, I apologize. Thank you for your answer, I am awaiting ML's answer before I respond further. Peace, DOwen. P.S. I love you too.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1308 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.62.172 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 10:37 pm:        waiting on HH's version...You discuss it with your dad. Does he think you are saved along with your family????????   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 736 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 10:57 pm:        Still waiting on your version ML. FH was kind enough to give us a skeleton version of her opinion on Salvation. Please give us your own belief. You ask if my dad thinks I am "saved". The answer will wait until you tell us what "saved" actually means. To you, that is. (Message edited by dowen on October 04, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 258 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:15 am:        Seeking, I agree with your post. That is how it was for me. Current member, please read it again. Don't wait for a crisis before you are willing to open your eyes. Please, at least ask God if SG is telling the truth. Pray and ask God to help you to be willing to hear the truth even if it is something you don't want to hear.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 259 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:22 am:        Reader, Who is your God? Is it the temple of God, (the body,) or the God of the temple? Who sits on the Lord's throne in your life? Jesus came and reconciled us to God so that we could boldly come directly to Him. (The veil in the temple miraculously tore upon the crucifixion of Jesus, do not erect another.) Do you know Him? Do you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ paid the FULL price? Do you believe that Jesus was/is the Messiah, the Christ, the Savior, the Son of God, and God Himself; come to save those who were/are lost? Is He your Savior? If He is then Christ is in you and you are a new creation. Or is there someone else on that throne? Is someone else your savoir? Who are you depending on for your salvation? Do not let it be yourself and/or any man. You can not save yourself and they can't save you either. If you will not believe in the one true Lord Jesus Christ and the power of His death and resurrection to save you from the power and death of sin, then you are not saved. It is a gift of God so that no man can boast. Will you accept that gift? When the death angel passed over Egypt, nothing could save them but the Blood of the Lamb being applied over their door. It didn't matter what else they had done that day, or who they knew, or what they were wearing. If they believed, accepted, that the blood would save them, they applied it. If they thought it was too simple, too foolish, to easy, to cheep, they probably tried something else. What would you have believed? What do you believe about the blood of Jesus Christ? Did it, (does it still,) have the power to save you? Or, are you trying something else? Do you think you can actually add something to that sacrifice to make it better? When the death angel comes your way, the truth will be undeniable.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 260 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:26 am:        God is a loving God. He so love us that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He is loving...but can have no fellowship with the unholy. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. Only the righteousness of Christ makes us acceptable to God. How can we deny such an awesome God? How can I help but to love Him who first loved me? His love, His salvation that He has offered me and freely given me, causes me to love Him. Christ in me is able to finish what He has begun in me. I don't dare try to finish in the flesh what He has begun in the Spirit. He is my Lord, my God, my Salvation. Any good in my life is a direct work of His Spirit. He wills in me to die so that He might live through me and others see His glory and desire to know the one and only Savior of men, Jesus Christ.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 261 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:27 am:        Do not believe that there is another Christ. Do not believe that there are other men sitting in the "office" of Christ. Do not let them sit on the throne of your life. They would have you believe that if they don't sit on that throne, then you do. It is true; you could sit on that throne. But there is another, the one true Jesus Christ who came at a true point in History and physically died and spilt real blood and suffered real pain and death. He is alive and He wants to be your savior so that He can abide in you and you in Him. He sits at the right Hand of the father in heaven, but He also indwells each believer. He is no respecter of persons. We together make up His body, each being a vital part, but He is the only head. The spirit of the anti-Christ wants to come along and claim the office of Christ; claim His lordship, (His authority,) and sit on His throne to rule and reign. The Bible warns of those who will come and claim they are Christ. Faith believes without seeing, but they claim you need a tangible Christ, a tangible Lord, and it is them. They deny the power of the real Jesus Christ to lead His people in the Spirit. Men have been doing it for centuries. They did it in Paul's lifetime and they are still at it. Oh, how I wish you would know Jesus and the Joy of Salvation. I wish that those of you who once knew it would remember the day you first believed and were saved. I pray that you would remember your first love. Remember Him who died a real death for you and after laying down His own life was able to take it up again. He deserves to be the one and only Lord of your life. Will you give Him back His throne?   pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 430 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:02 am:        God's Plan of Salvation is plain and simple. The Bible says there is only one way to Heaven Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6) Good works cannot save you. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) Trust Jesus Christ today! Here's what you must do: Admit you are a sinner. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12) "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:10) Be willing to turn from sin (repent). Jesus said: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:5) "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:30) Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners. Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9) Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Savior. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10) "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12) "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17) CONT......   pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 431 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:04 am:        If you have received Jesus Christ as your Savior, as a Christian you should: Read your Bible every day to get to know Christ better. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15) "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psalms 119:105) Talk to God in prayer every day. "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:22) "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Philippians 4:6) Be baptized, worship, fellowship, and serve with other Christians in a church where Christ is preached and the Bible is the final authority. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19) "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." (Hebrews 10:25) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16) Tell others about Christ. "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15) "For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!" (1 Corinthians 9:16) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16) So let’s review God’s message here....................... 1. Admit you are a sinner. 2. Be willing to turn from sin (repent). 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead 4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Savior. That's it! Do this and mean it and you’re a new creature in Christ. Now keep on keeping on by................... 1. Read your Bible every day to get to know Christ better. 2. Talk to God in prayer every day. 3. Be baptized, worship, fellowship, and serve with other Christians in a church where Christ is preached and the Bible is the final authority. 4. Tell others about Christ.   pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 432 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:20 am:        I want to reemphasize again the only requirements for your salvation are these four things, 1. Admit you are a sinner. 2. Be willing to turn from sin (repent). 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead 4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Savior. Anybody try to add to this would do well to revisit their bible. Once you do these four; you’re saved. Period. It is not some long drawn out progression of works and deeds. That would nullify the cross and the blood shed for us. And if you devalue the price Jesus paid you are in grave error.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1309 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.41 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:25 am:        beautiful....I am weeping just to think of the many precious people at HH who don't know the KING of the throne... In my simple Arkansas tongue I tried to tell Mom the same thing..that mere men can never take the place of our Lord and our personal guidance should come from Jesus. I cannot spend time her today first because we have a funeral and then we will travel to an interior church... And Dowen there is no need to try to get in a debate about salvation...Salvation comes from God not from man... If you will look back over the posts you will see where I wrote on that subject. The question was asked you about HH...not about you personally or me personally...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1310 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.41 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:31 am:        beautiful....I am weeping just to think of the many precious people at HH who don't know the KING of the throne... In my simple Arkansas tongue I tried to tell Mom the same thing..that mere men can never take the place of our Lord and our personal guidance should come from Jesus. I cannot spend time her today first because we have a funeral and then we will travel to an interior church... And Dowen there is no need to try to get in a debate about salvation...Salvation comes from God not from man... If you will look back over the posts you will see where I wrote on that subject. The question was asked you about HH...not about you personally or me personally...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1311 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.41 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:34 am:        beautiful....I am weeping just to think of the many precious people at HH who don't know the KING of the throne... In my simple Arkansas tongue I tried to tell Mom the same thing..that mere men can never take the place of our Lord and our personal guidance should come from Jesus. I cannot spend time her today first because we have a funeral and then we will travel to an interior church... And Dowen there is no need to try to get in a debate about salvation...Salvation comes from God not from man... If you will look back over the posts you will see where I wrote on that subject. The question was asked you about HH...not about you personally or me personally...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1312 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.41 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 10:42 am:        beautiful....I am weeping just to think of the many precious people at HH who don't know the KING of the throne... In my simple Arkansas tongue I tried to tell Mom the same thing..that mere men can never take the place of our Lord and our personal guidance should come from Jesus. I cannot spend time her today first because we have a funeral and then we will travel to an interior church... And Dowen there is no need to try to get in a debate about salvation...Salvation comes from God not from man... If you will look back over the posts you will see where I wrote on that subject. The question was asked you about HH...not about you personally or me personally...   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 262 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.140 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:08 pm:        Amen. Thank you Pure Heart for posting the scriptures and their references.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 737 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.120 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 12:26 pm:        Thanks to those who have participated so far. Mrs. Alvear, I am still waiting for you to post in your own words, what you believe "Saved" means. You want me to post what HH believes, it is only fair for you to post what you believe.   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 926 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.88.91 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 2:44 pm:        FH was kind enough to give us a skeleton version of her opinion on Salvation. Dowen, Maybe you could clarify what part or parts of FH's "skeleton version...on Salvation" you consider to be opinion?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1313 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.222.134.252 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 5:27 pm:        Well, am at one of our son´s in ministry church in the interior of our state AND THEY HAVE INTERNET! He said, Get on the net..so hear I AM BUT JUST FOR A FEW MINUTES... What does being saved mean? HEARING HIM SAY WELL DONE and Walking though the pearly gates...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 738 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.120 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 6:54 pm:        ML, what does "Saved" mean to you???!!! Quit dancing and come out with it! It shouldn't be hard for a Missionary to put into words her definition of "saved". Please.   yeoman Junior Member Username: yeoman Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 64.246.4.144 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 11:07 pm:        Dear Pureheart, Are you saying "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized."? Thanks!   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1314 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.82 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 11:16 pm:        What does saved mean? What a stupid question...saved means you are not lost...lol Dowen cannot (will not, better not, if he knows what is best for him) answer the question about HH...so he wants to know what being saved means...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1315 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.82 Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2006 - 11:34 pm:        MY DEAR ONES: DOWEN would like to get us to move away from the original question...another trick of HH...   pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 433 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 7:59 am:        Yeoman, Baptism affirms that three things happen to believers who are baptized: (1) they die with Christ to their old self; (2) they rise with Christ to become a new creature; and (3) they are incorporated in their new life with a living community which looks for the coming of the Lord (Romans 6:1-11) Although baptism is not required for salvation, Jesus does speak of it..... Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age'" (Matthew 28:18-20).   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 593 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 8:09 am:        "Mrs. Alvear .. What does saved mean? What a stupid question... saved means you are not lost...lol" Mrs. Alvear .. does your husband preach with this type of flippant nonchalance about salvation ? Does he speak with the same mocking tone about the things of God that you bring to this forum ? Is the above how you really go out and speak to folks sharing the Lord Jesus Christ? Mrs. Alvear ... your tone and heart making light of the precious things of God is the predominant note on this forum. Far more noticable than any of the various questions folks may have and discuss about doctrinal matters, community, HH and whatever else is supposed to be a focus (tis the wrong place anyway, but even within there can be some earnestness). The real issue on this thread is that you 'counted the cost' .. you responded 'too much' and went another way. A situation with some difficulties yet always hope for all involved. Perhaps there would be change and growth and heart here and there another day. What to avoid is recrimination and pat answers, what to seek is the mind of God. Yet instead of holding to heart the preciousness and holiness you have taken another path, a path of self-justification. That unease is why we see posts like the one above. And also why I ask you and Mr. Alvear to reconsider your emphasis and efforts here. For your own spiritual health and well-being. A deep and serious reconsideration of focus and purpose. It is the heart of God to meet every need by His grace. Your labors for Him are an excellent base .. please seek that same holiness on every post and every sharing. And consider whether this might just be the wrong place in the wrong time with the wrong heart. Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh   infreedom Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 162.40.168.158 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 8:34 am:        Looks to me that Dowen's just playing a delaying tactic by demanding that other people meet his conditions before he'll answer a simple and reasonable question. He still hasn't answered and probably won't, perhaps can't. Which is it Dowen? Don't understand HH's salvation theology? Or know that revealing your understanding of it will weaken your position? No more delays, no more attacks on other people to obscure the question. Answer or just say you decline to answer. It's very simple. No one can force you answer. It's your right to decline. But do it honestly if that's your choice.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1316 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.33.199 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 9:57 am:        Prax...the question was to Dowen and he knows he cannot answer so he like you passes the ball to another court...HH tactics...NOne of us on this board mind telling how we feel a person is saved but that was not the original question... Should I repost strawman to you again...you remember foreverhis letter???????????????? That is why he cannot post because salvation means different to HH than to all people...You got ART on those long trips around HH doctrine...Dowen tries it with me...we are not discussing Janice Alvear...J. Crow or any one person we are discussing salvation according to HH... Now my husbands said quit judging us and get back to the subject... No problem discussing HH here...UNLESS they have something to hid... Why teach a people that eternal salvation DEPENDS on their obedience to BA and his elders...lol... HH is a million miles OFF target... My heart feels I am doing the right thing...my e mails from troubled souls confirm it and people that once thought like I did now see the truth about that village and of course my friends "rub" it in telling me, "we told you so." BUT they know me. I said I would stay around long enough to really find out...and I did.. If it was or is so good you should not have left for you know there is no breaking of the death covenant...we happen to have the Bible studies... So according to HH neither you, Dowen nor I am saved... I read it with my own eyes...and Prax I am not the only one that writes here...remember some were group leaders they know much more than I do................................................................................................. shall we post what they know to help your memory?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1317 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.33.199 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 10:01 am:        Prax...the question was to Dowen and he knows he cannot answer so he like you passes the ball to another court...HH tactics...NOne of us on this board mind telling how we feel a person is saved but that was not the original question... Should I repost strawman to you again...you remember foreverhis letter???????????????? That is why he cannot post because salvation means different to HH than to all people...You got ART on those long trips around HH doctrine...Dowen tries it with me...we are not discussing Janice Alvear...J. Crow or any one person we are discussing salvation according to HH... Now my husbands said quit judging us and get back to the subject... No problem discussing HH here...UNLESS they have something to hid... Why teach a people that eternal salvation DEPENDS on their obedience to BA and his elders...lol... HH is a million miles OFF target... My heart feels I am doing the right thing...my e mails from troubled souls confirm it and people that once thought like I did now see the truth about that village and of course my friends "rub" it in telling me, "we told you so." BUT they know me. I said I would stay around long enough to really find out...and I did.. If it was or is so good you should not have left for you know there is no breaking of the death covenant...we happen to have the Bible studies... So according to HH neither you, Dowen nor I am saved... I read it with my own eyes...and Prax I am not the only one that writes here...remember some were group leaders they know much more than I do................................................................................................. shall we post what they know to help your memory?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1318 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.33.199 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 10:03 am:        Prax...the question was to Dowen and he knows he cannot answer so he like you passes the ball to another court...HH tactics...NOne of us on this board mind telling how we feel a person is saved but that was not the original question... Should I repost strawman to you again...you remember foreverhis letter???????????????? That is why he cannot post because salvation means different to HH than to all people...You got ART on those long trips around HH doctrine...Dowen tries it with me...we are not discussing Janice Alvear...J. Crow or any one person we are discussing salvation according to HH... Now my husbands said quit judging us and get back to the subject... No problem discussing HH here...UNLESS they have something to hid... Why teach a people that eternal salvation DEPENDS on their obedience to BA and his elders...lol... HH is a million miles OFF target... My heart feels I am doing the right thing...my e mails from troubled souls confirm it and people that once thought like I did now see the truth about that village and of course my friends "rub" it in telling me, "we told you so." BUT they know me. I said I would stay around long enough to really find out...and I did.. If it was or is so good you should not have left for you know there is no breaking of the death covenant...we happen to have the Bible studies... So according to HH neither you, Dowen nor I am saved... I read it with my own eyes...and Prax I am not the only one that writes here...remember some were group leaders they know much more than I do................................................................................................. shall we post what they know to help your memory?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1319 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.33.199 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 10:06 am:        Prax...the question was to Dowen and he knows he cannot answer so he like you passes the ball to another court...HH tactics...NOne of us on this board mind telling how we feel a person is saved but that was not the original question... Should I repost strawman to you again...you remember foreverhis letter???????????????? That is why he cannot post because salvation means different to HH than to all people...You got ART on those long trips around HH doctrine...Dowen tries it with me...we are not discussing Janice Alvear...J. Crow or any one person we are discussing salvation according to HH... Now my husbands said quit judging us and get back to the subject... No problem discussing HH here...UNLESS they have something to hid... Why teach a people that eternal salvation DEPENDS on their obedience to BA and his elders...lol... HH is a million miles OFF target... My heart feels I am doing the right thing...my e mails from troubled souls confirm it and people that once thought like I did now see the truth about that village and of course my friends "rub" it in telling me, "we told you so." BUT they know me. I said I would stay around long enough to really find out...and I did.. If it was or is so good you should not have left for you know there is no breaking of the death covenant...we happen to have the Bible studies... So according to HH neither you, Dowen nor I am saved... I read it with my own eyes...and Prax I am not the only one that writes here...remember some were group leaders they know much more than I do................................................................................................. shall we post what they know to help your memory?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1320 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.33.199 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 10:14 am:        Prax...the question was to Dowen and he knows he cannot answer so he like you passes the ball to another court...HH tactics...NOne of us on this board mind telling how we feel a person is saved but that was not the original question... Should I repost strawman to you again...you remember foreverhis letter???????????????? That is why he cannot post because salvation means different to HH than to all people...You got ART on those long trips around HH doctrine...Dowen tries it with me...we are not discussing Janice Alvear...J. Crow or any one person we are discussing salvation according to HH... Now my husbands said quit judging us and get back to the subject... No problem discussing HH here...UNLESS they have something to hid... Why teach a people that eternal salvation DEPENDS on their obedience to BA and his elders...lol... HH is a million miles OFF target... My heart feels I am doing the right thing...my e mails from troubled souls confirm it and people that once thought like I did now see the truth about that village and of course my friends "rub" it in telling me, "we told you so." BUT they know me. I said I would stay around long enough to really find out...and I did.. If it was or is so good you should not have left for you know there is no breaking of the death covenant...we happen to have the Bible studies... So according to HH neither you, Dowen nor I am saved... I read it with my own eyes...and Prax I am not the only one that writes here...remember some were group leaders they know much more than I do................................................................................................. shall we post what they know to help your memory?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1321 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.159 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 11:00 am:        well posted four times...must be getting the message across...old computer that sticks...old missionary...both need to retire....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1322 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.159 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 11:13 am:        I never mentioned that I can remember counting the cost..Prax...where did I say that...I have said I studied their doctrine, got to know their death covenant beliefs, saw the way they treat their people, saw their unbiblical authority message of them being Jesus in the flesh, heard them tell me to kill the baby, saw their spirits, saw them mistreat my mom and use God's name in vain, saw them misrepresent me, saw their web of lies about ex members and yes I walked away...I saw their false front...and you are right I don't want it...I want to be real...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1323 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.159 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 11:15 am:        I never mentioned that I can remember counting the cost..Prax...where did I say that...I have said I studied their doctrine, got to know their death covenant beliefs, saw the way they treat their people, saw their unbiblical authority message of them being Jesus in the flesh, heard them tell me to kill the baby, saw their spirits, saw them mistreat my mom and use God's name in vain, saw them misrepresent me, saw their web of lies about ex members and yes I walked away...I saw their false front...and you are right I don't want it...I want to be real...   yeoman Junior Member Username: yeoman Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 64.246.4.126 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 11:31 am:        Dear Pureheart, I'm sorry. Does that mean yes? Thanks!   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1324 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.159 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 11:37 am:        some of the things the Bible says about being saved: Acts 2:21 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' NIV Acts 4:12 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." NIV Acts 16:29-34 Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God-he and his whole family. NIV Rom 10:8-13 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." NIV Rom 10:8-13 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." NIV 1 Cor 15:2 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. NIV 2 Thess 2:10-15 . They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. NIV Now we could go on and on…but all know on this board that we are saved by Jesus Christ and not by signing some death covenant with HH. We are the BRIDE of CHRIST not the bride of HH or some jesus in the flesh HH has no power to save or “unsave”. All power and authority was given to Jesus Christ…so Dowen as you say it is through HIS blood we are saved. It is not by our works but by HIS sacrifice on Calvary. Must go now...am very very busy...packing to go to the states Sunday...maybe more later tonight... and he who endures to the end shall be saved...planning on enduring... Yesterday, a funeral...a jail visit, a visit at an interior church...a visit to one of our new areas for a campground...and a sweet time of fellowship with some of our Children in Missions...   pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 434 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 12:16 pm:        Yeoman, You are in an area that is debated intensely. There are scriptures that can support both sides. The answer I will give is my personal view based on my personal interpretation. If you will notice; and I pasted it here for review; I put the baptism below the ‘That's it'. So let’s review God’s message here....................... 1. Admit you are a sinner. 2. Be willing to turn from sin (repent). 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead 4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Savior. That's it! Do this and mean it and you’re a new creature in Christ. Now keep on keeping on by................... 1. Read your Bible every day to get to know Christ better. 2. Talk to God in prayer every day. 3. Be baptized, worship, fellowship, and serve with other Christians in a church where Christ is preached and the Bible is the final authority. 4. Tell others about Christ. Jesus really wants us to be baptized. I highly encourage all Christians to be baptized. And as a new believer we should profess our belief by this act. But I think it is just short of a requirement of salvation. So in my humble opinion, if you ... 1. Admit you are a sinner. 2. Be willing to turn from sin (repent). 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead 4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Savior. Then you are saved and you will not be thrown into the lake of fire. I hope that answers your question. But don’t just take my answer. Read the bible yourself and let the Holy Spirit guide you to your own decision. If you feel God requires you to be baptized then by all means listen to the Spirit. Do whatever God leads you to do regardless of what others think or believe.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 594 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 1:50 pm:        Mrs. Alvear .. "You got ART on those long trips around HH doctrine" We were not discussing HH doctrine. "Now my husbands said quit judging us" Mr. Alvear, there is something deeply wrong with this whole attempt, top to bottom. The language is harsh and accusatory and imbalanced, the mockery is awkward and discomfiting, the crusade is ill-conceived, the attitudes and hearts are simply wrong. And this is true whether there is much or little or no substance in regards to various concerns. The whole method of presentation here is unGodly and you are creating a spiritual spectacle not unlike that of Sanballet in Nehemiah 4. Please read the chapter carefully and note the prayer in verse 4-6. My concern is that you are placing yourself in a Sanballet-Tobiah position. Yet even now there is no need, a better way is before you. Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1325 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.116.182 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 4:49 pm:        and your language Mr Prax is so seasoned with love...LOL I have chosen rather we have chosen the better way...We do not bully our saints, lie to them, forbid them to know what is going on in the world. and no I am not mad...just plain spoken... If my language is harsh it is only because you do not know me...I have never been considered a harsh person...I am just plain spoken... Have no concern than I am in a Sanballet Tobaih position...I have spiritual guidance from overseers...No need for you to waste your time worry about me...worry over HH....remember stawman...no killings have taken place here...no made up meetings...no lies about rebaptisms... Go worry about those that instruct others to lie in the name of God...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1326 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.120.103 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 5:10 pm:        and just what would that better way be??????????????????????????????? ART tried the better way. He wanted with all his heart to call them brothers... Sorry I am not ART...he chose to remove his posts from here. I will stick by every thing I have said as truth and nothing but the truth... That is more than you can say for you just repeat what is said to you. You do not even know me., have never met me, never visited the field where I work... I talk of what I know, what I saw and what I experienced...Now deny that I am telling the truth and I will prove you wrong...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1327 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.95.149 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 5:45 pm:        You and Art were constantly disagreeing over HH...he knew what he was talking about but just didn't want to believe it true...He was crushed to say the least... However he is gone...for now... I am not on this board to go into the depths of HH doctrine for I don't think they even know what they believe as they are always changing...just like my JW doctor told me today they too must change as God directs their elders... I SAW TOO much at HH heard too much and I will not lie for them or for anyone...I have principles that I live up to.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1328 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.95.149 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 5:48 pm:        You and Art were constantly disagreeing over HH...he knew what he was talking about but just didn't want to believe it true...He was crushed to say the least... However he is gone...for now... I am not on this board to go into the depths of HH doctrine for I don't think they even know what they believe as they are always changing...just like my JW doctor told me today they too must change as God directs their elders... I SAW TOO much at HH heard too much and I will not lie for them or for anyone...I have principles that I live up to.   seekingglory Junior Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 8:22 pm:        Prax your pompous attitude and hoity-toity writings are a perfect example of the group you so staunchly defend. You are belittling Sister Janice and her experiences. You are attempting to squash her testimony and silence her. You will not succeed. We are standing in line to confirm her posts and we cheer her from a distance for having the courage to stand up to you, DOwen and the whole group of elders that so horribly abuse their power over the lives of others. This forum gives us the opportunity to announce to the world, and to anybody who cares to read, the truth about what looks like a peaceful little community in the country but is in fact a hell hole for many. So keep up your attacks on ML and show the world how HH handles adversity. Show the world what happens when people speak up. They get blasted. Show people how the hurt get treated. There is no compassion in your posts; only denial and retribution; just like you get at HH. Oh you quote a few scriptures here and there but there are enough vile comments and innuendos to negate the good. Hang in there Sister Janice. You have no idea how many you have cheering you. And I bet even a few from the inside of HH though they must be ever so careful to hide it. And may God have mercy on the elders when they meet him face to face. Boy are they in for a surprise!   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 595 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 8:52 pm:        Hi folks, Yes, Sanbellet had many behind him cheering him on. From various nations. To be clear, the word I shared above is specifically for Mr. Alvear. May it be read and considered. Others may find it helpful, but it is specifically for Mr. Alvear. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1329 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.152 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 8:58 pm:        If people cheer me or blast me I will stand for TRUTH...Prax you do not even know the truth of the matter...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1330 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.152 Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 9:07 pm:        yes, I KNOW behind the gates eyes are reading these posts...I am praying for each one of you. Many of you are so sincere, so sweet...and some of you know you are caught in a net and don't know how to cut free. You are worried about those that will remain and family ties will be broke... I know...I feel...I weep with you...but I can do more from this side of the fence to help them than I could if I were inside...and YOU can do more from this side of the fence also. May Jesus give you courage...and no you are not divorcing Christ... You made a vow thinking you were doing God's will and seeking His best...You were innocent...but you were wrong...and there is salvation OUTSIDE of HH... Salvation comes from God not from some man. Recieve His presence in your heart right now...find the courage to pray your own prayers and GET YOUR own answers!   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 263 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.175 Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 8:03 am:        I know...I feel...I weep with you...but I can do more from this side of the fence to help them than I could if I were inside...and YOU can do more from this side of the fence also. May Jesus give you courage...and no you are not divorcing Christ... You made a vow thinking you were doing God's will and seeking His best...You were innocent...but you were wrong...and there is salvation OUTSIDE of HH... Salvation comes from God not from some man. Receive His presence in your heart right now...find the courage to pray your own prayers and GET YOUR own answers! AMEN and AMEN   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 335 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 1:15 am:        Pureheart, Your recent posts on this thread bring to mind many of our exchanges. God bless you I hope things are going well for you. Thanks for taking the time to post the scriptures that clarify your view of salvation. For the most part I agree, fortunately on judgment day God alone will be the judge whether anyone agrees with us or not. Yeoman, Particularly, in UPC, Oneness and interestingly enough Church of Christ their doctrine teaches that the act of Baptism is when our sins are washed away. The Catholic church teaches that initial salvation starts with infant baptism. My personal belief is that Baptism is a command. If you have called on the name of the Lord for forgiveness of sins why wouldn’t one want to be baptized? If one initially refuses baptism it could be at that it was not properly explained or that the new believer just did not understand. Once one understands that it is a command then to refuse would be to indicate that the conversion experience was not sincere or genuine. Just food for thought. Daniel, If you can get the posters to fight among ourselves on the details of salvation it will distract from why HH teaches a system of works to earn one’s way into the kingdom. ML is right about something that you and Prax will not or more accurately cannot see. Based on HH doctrine that ten or twelve posters have outlined on numerous threads you will be just as lost as the rest of us on judgment day. What SG and FH and UG have said on many occasions is true. The only way someone in HH knows for sure if they are saved is if they die and BA proclaims them to have “made it” then the one’s still here know that person was save. This is not any different than what happened in Acts 15. Peter stood up and said,(my paraphrase) ” Brothers I was the one God chose to initially bring the message of salvation to the gentiles. I was amazed that before I got through telling what all Jesus had done for them they were baptized in the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues. What could I do but baptize them? So my answer to my Jewish brothers here today who have told Paul and Barnabus the gentiles must be circumcised and obey the law of Moses is…. why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of these gentile disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Prax and Daniel it is really simple HH does not believe Acts 15. HH has added so many to conditions that the leadership themselves cannot keep up with the changes partly because THE LAWS ARE EVER CHANGING! God Bless all of you and now I will slip into the safest place in the universe abiding with Him…….... Under Grace   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 596 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 8:35 am:        Undergrace, Daniel's question was totally legitimate. If folks are going to say 'the soteriology (salvation understanding) of HH is unacceptable to us because of a/b/c' It is clearly proper to show how diverse are the views of salvation of the critics. How they could make similar accusations towards each other. In fact some of the most intense salvation verses in the NT were not even mentioned here in the interesting but somewhat facile presentations. And you should join me in concern about some of the language here .. mocking even the question. 'stupid question .. saved means you are not lost'...lol . Something is wrong here, the goal is not to understand the Bible, the goal is simply to look for causes of offense. Above you periscoped Acts 11 to Acts 15 .. thereby confusing a strong affirmation of water baptism as foundational and for remission of sins with a warning about making the Mosaic ordinances, including circumcision, the standard of obedience, which came out of the discussion about the new Gentile believers. Extrapolating far beyond the Acts context is fraught with difficulties. You are correct that the groups you mentioned above have a more scriptural sense of the connection of water baptism with remission of sins (generally oneness and CoC today). However if you go to historic Reformation Christendom you will find this was a much wider view. For now I will only mention one writer .. Here is a discussion of Menno Simons, http://www.bibleviews.com/baptism-sj.html A Letter on Baptism by Sherry Jones "adults coming to the water with the required response of faith and repentance could expect remission of sins as a promise of God to their commitment to Christ in baptism. ...Menno said, in regards to water baptism, that "so many glorious promises are attached thereto, as may plainly be seen and read". Of course, as we would agree, the promises come only through water baptism on account of the inner heart's response to God through faith and repentance first.... As well as salvation in general, he specifically saw the promise of remission of sins connected to water baptism. He said, "...we receive remission of our sins when we are true believers and are washed and cleansed in baptism. Through the promise, I say, not through the (physical) washing of water, for it is not merit, but through the promise" And he made clear distinctions between the RCC perversions or baptism (such as infant baptism and sprinkling and adherence to a false faith) ... since this must be a response to "genuine faith and repentance" (continues)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 597 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 8:46 am:        Suffice to say, my understanding about the HH view is different than you proclaim. And I simply do not consider people who distort so much of HH as reliable as conduits of interpretation. A good example of this is the gross and ugly usage of the term 'death covenant' by Mrs. Alvear. Any honest reader should recoil and actually chastise this abominable usage -- yet you give such a free pass because it is against HH. One could similarly attack your marriage covenant, presuming you included words like "till death do us apart" .. Undergrace, did you enter into a death covenant with your wife ? Should we proclaim that she and you are entered into a 'death covenant' ? Or Ruth, when she spoke the beautiful words that ring through the ages ... Ruth 1:16 .. Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me. Undergrace, are you going to be the one who stands before God and accuses Ruth of entering a "death covenant" when she spoke those beautiful words ? After all, Ruth did say .. "Where thou diest, will I die" "if ought but death part thee and me." Sadly Undergrace, your comrades in opposition are totally out of control. Spewing ugly and wildly and falsely. That is one reason I mention Sanballet and that is one reason I specifically appeal to Mr. Alvear to step back and reconsider. There is a lot involved when one is fighting so hard to distort the truth against people seeking to do the will of God. Even in your position of being adversarial to HH you have an accountability (perhaps on the funk list if not here) to try to help these folks to control their hearts and tongues, to seek that their words would be subject to the Holy Spirit. Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 265 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 7:45 pm:        Plainly: When I was in HH I had the understanding that my salvation *predominately* depended on my submission to my husband and those in authority in HH. Even any doubt of this was a lack of faith and jeopardized my salvation. To have doubts about this or anything concerning HH was the same as being double minded. I was so concerned when people I had met in the Branch Davidians died in the fire. I asked my group leader if they did the right thing. He went to the elders and came back later with this answer: If they acted in submission to those who God gave as their covering and authority, then they did the right thing. If one in authority, my husband, a leader etc., told me to do something that was wrong I was only responsible for my part: to be in my place of submission to them. Even questioning their authority to tell me do it was wrong. I learned to not even let my mind go there because if it did I had to repent immediately because I feared I would loose my chance to be saved if I suddenly died in an accident or something. The “blood of Jesus that cleansed us from sin” was “our participation and relationships in the body.” Being in our “PLACE” was paramount to our salvation, especially our place of submission to authority. I was afraid to die with any doubts or rebellion concerning them. There are three main levels in relation to the body and God and each of those three levels has three levels. On the highest level you reach son-ship and stand directly before God like their apostle BA. Until then you are just situational or transitional also called slaves or friends of God. Like Seeing said, you have to go the course. I asked my group leader who in HH was constitutional/ sons of God, after asking the elders he told me BA definitely was and possibly two others, one being SY. HH literature also taught me that besides heart felt submission, our sacrifices, (our work,) had to be both complete and unblemished. No matter how hard we worked or how perfect, and how submissive, there would come a higher calling and an ever greater stretching to obtain it. To think that it was impossible to stretch ourselves further and add the additional sacrifice or work was a lack of faith and any lack of faith jeopardized salvation. I constantly walked broken, in submission and with fear. Had I given enough today? Was my sacrifice complete? Was it unblemished? Then the cincher…Did I doubt or fear? I was always in fear of fear; the lack of faith that would damn my soul. I will never forget hearing BA say, “Grace is nothing more than another chance to get it right.” God showed me all my rights are nothing but filthy rags; grace is extended to us because only the blood of Jesus can make us right. (Message edited by foreverhis on October 08, 2006)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1332 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.135.111.147 Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:07 am:        Ruth words to Naomi have nothing to do with a rash covenant with HH. Naomi did not claim to be Jesus in the flesh or have some great last day revelation... How dare you compare such a beautiful story of redemption with HH's twisting scriptures. Prax you may trick some but I will never fall for such comparisions... However tonight I am glad I know my mom is feeling much better as I recieved two e mails... Have you so soon forgotten no one that has signed the dearth covenant then broke it has called me a liar... I appeal to all on this board that signed the covenant to rise up in the name of the Lord and tell Prax if I am a liar. We do not need opinions of outsiders...let us hear from those that broke the covenant...and see what happened... I had two warnings in two dreams about HH...I am not used of the Lord in dreams as some people may be so I know if I have a dream about something God is speaking to me...BEWARE my friends...Pray much...and may you stayed covered with His precious blood.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1333 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.135.111.147 Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:18 am:        I saw no perfection at HH...I saw and met many wonderful people, people striving for perfection...Leadership should be a better example if they believe a few of them have reached perfection...40 plus years of work..2 or 3 perfect elders...odd...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 598 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 8:13 am:        James 3:7-8 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1334 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.162.228.175 Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 11:48 am:        "Woe unto them who call evil, good, and good, evil" [Isaiah 5:20]   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1340 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.128.123.116 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:09 am:        The tongue can be both good and evil...to tell the truth about evil the tongue is a powerful weapon...to tell the story of Jesus the tongue is a powerful weapon... Jesus, Prax is all TRUTH and no error...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1341 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.128.123.116 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:16 am:        The tongue can be both good and evil...to tell the truth about evil the tongue is a powerful weapon...to tell the story of Jesus the tongue is a powerful weapon... Jesus, Prax is all TRUTH and no error...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1342 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.128.123.116 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:24 am:        The tongue can be both good and evil...to tell the truth about evil the tongue is a powerful weapon...to tell the story of Jesus the tongue is a powerful weapon... Jesus, Prax is all TRUTH and no error...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1343 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.128.123.116 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:26 am:        The tongue can be both good and evil...to tell the truth about evil the tongue is a powerful weapon...to tell the story of Jesus the tongue is a powerful weapon... Jesus, Prax is all TRUTH and no error...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 600 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:52 am:        Hi Folks, Mrs. Alvear, your posts are strange. Anyway, there is one simple point being shared with you on this thread. The poison of asps is under your lips (Romans 3:13) when you speak an abomination as you have here on Factnet of a 'death covenant'. Whether the others opposed would speak the same way I do not know, however by their silence they remain as accomplices to this poison, this open sepulchre. And I appeal to Mr. Alvear again, consider deeply such evil words and take rightful dominion to prevent such an abomination. Do not be like the accusers of Ruth who would call her words of love and connection a 'death covenant'. Consider how you would respond if a sinful shaman taught others that your marriage covenant was a 'death covenant'. Would you not at least seek to offer correction ? And at the very least, for the sake of your own spiritual walk with the Lord Jesus Christ .. forsake such poison from this point forth. Shalom, Praxaluh   truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 296 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 12:55 pm:        There's nothing wrong with a death covenant per se! But when you make one TO A GROUP in order to gain salvation, when it is taught as a biblical pattern for church membership and is a life long commitment to obey the leaders of HH (!), then we have a problem. Prax you are strange lol, not ML!   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 602 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:24 pm:        When folks spin out of control *anything*, no matter how abominable, will be 'defended'. We should not be at all suprised as to who decides to defend the abominable phrase 'death covenant' the poison of asps. T-H "There's nothing wrong with a death covenant per se!...." Then simply please give examples of good 'death covenants' and show where that is the name that is giving to a positive voluntary covenant ... 'death covenant'. And do you consider a marriage covenant a 'death covenant' ? I have never heard a married couple say 'we entered a death covenant'. (And please, no games .. a lifetime covenant, "if ought but death part thee and me" as per Ruth and Naomi the children of Israel, is clearly a very different phrase.) However the term is in fact used in witchcraft, or sometimes among murderers and suicide bombers. Mr. Alvear, please pay close attention here. Not knowing English well it is understandable that this may have gotten by you - however 'death covenant' is a phrase - all other issues aside - that needs to be completely forsaken, dropped away. It is a phrase of witchcraft and murderers only. For spiritual honesty and health it is time for right action and to forsake such language. An apology to HH would be in order as well, without prejudice or taint. (In other words, without necessarily affecting other parts of the discussion.) Those who have kept silent, whose conscience is not seared, should speak up as well. Today is the day for honesty before God. Thanks. Yours in Jesus Name, Praxaluh   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 927 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.88.91 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 1:39 pm:        ...But when you make one TO A GROUP in order to gain salvation, when it is taught as a biblical pattern for church membership and is a life long commitment to obey the leaders of HH (!)... Prax, If you don't mind, let's put the phrase "death covenant" aside for a moment (I'm not going to argue your definition of it or defend anyone else's use of it), and address TH's definition of the covenant one makes with HH. Is that an accurate description of it?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 266 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 7:15 pm:        When I was a member of HH, and still, I understood the oaths as "untill death" and pronouncing a "severe" curse on yourself if you should leave otherwise. Whether or not that is what Ruth was doing, it is how HH takes it and what HH members do. 17 Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me."   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 603 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 8:35 pm:        Foreverhis, so are you now the one who would accuse Ruth and Naomi and the children of Israel of entering a 'death covenant' ? Are you now such an accuser ? Does anybody here have among the disaffected have even a bit of integrity ? Do you all look for ways to defend or bypass such an abomination ? Are you so lost in animus that you language has lost its meaning ? And C-S, there is nothing to discuss until after we see if anybody here will put integrity first. Perhaps Mr. Alvear, who despite his hostility to HH will (we are told) draw some solid lines as to what is proper to discuss, although to little avail. This is fundamental. The whole discussion of covenant has been tainted and needs a sound word. Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 10:30 pm:        I am only telling you how that scripture impressed me taken in context with my life and the teachings at HH. I learned a lot of wrong things in HH, this could be one of them. To this day I still have a problem with communion because of the emphases on the curse, just like the emphases in HH on the curse in Ruth. I found after I left that a lot of things are twisted in HH. I never thought about Ruth's oath. I'll think about it. But like I said: Whether or not that is what Ruth was doing, it is how HH takes it and what HH members do.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 268 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 10:46 pm:        That verse was used to support this: Fron HH writings:Testing Your Confession of Commitment "PLEDGE OF ALLEGANCE I hereby pledge from a clear conscience and in the fear of God, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and adjure any higher allegiance and fidelity to any potentate, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen, including myself; that I will support and seek out every truth to defend the Word of God and the ordinances of His community against all enemies, external and internal; that I will bear unto death true faith and allegiance to the Head, (this means God's authority coming thrugh the elders and true loyalty to the members of this community; that I will pick up the spiritual weapons of my warfare on behalf of the community when required; that I will also perform service when needed; that I will render such service to the community from a heart motivated by my love for God and His people; that I will submit my service to the appointed direction of His overseers; and that I take this obligation freely without any external compulsion, mental reservation or purpose of evasion; SO HELP ME GOD. In acknowledgment whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature."   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 928 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.88.91 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:17 pm:        And C-S, there is nothing to discuss until after we see if anybody here will put integrity first. How about you, Prax? Why don't YOU act with integrity and give me an honest, straightforward answer? Why does everyone else have to conform to your dictates before you will respond to a simple question? I have been reading hundreds of your posts for months, and you have yet to clearly articulate what it is that HH DOES believe and require from its members. Why the reluctance to come out with it instead of browbeating everyone else with your recondite erudition?   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 929 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.88.91 Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:23 pm:        And C-S, there is nothing to discuss until after we see if anybody here will put integrity first. How about you, Prax? Why don't YOU act with integrity and give me an honest, straightforward answer? Why does everyone else have to conform to your dictates before you will respond to a simple question? I have been reading hundreds of your posts for months, and you have yet to clearly articulate what it is that HH DOES believe and require from its members. Why the reluctance to just come out with it instead of endlessly browbeating readers with your recondite erudition?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1344 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.144.244.190 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 1:12 am:        Who would like a report on my integrity??????????? I will be glad to send and publish HERE on the internet thousands of pastors that know me to for anyone to call to see what kind of person I am.... Prax is not a member of HH and neither will he make a death covenant with them and no it is not like the marriage vow....NO ONE should "marry" a system...you marry a husband or wife...and even then there are reasons the marriage vow can be broken... God is not a Hitler...He is kind and neither is God like HH... (Message edited by Missionary_lady on October 12, 2006) (Message edited by Missionary_lady on October 12, 2006)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 604 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 3:12 am:        The abomination of the poison tongue from Mrs. Alvear continues. This is why I talk of a seared conscience before God. Foreverhis, I appreciate that you will 'think about it'. Please do not use this as an excuse for a pass though. The issue is very clear. Whether you agree fully with the HH view or not (I remember that you were appreciative that you were released from your covenant) what Mrs. Alvear is doing is one of the sickest uses of terminology I have ever seen. And yes, clearly, that does make this an integrity matter. And c-s I answer lots of stuff, to the best of my ability and knowledge. There comes a point though where a line must be drawn. You were clearly reluctant to start accusing Ruth, or a married couple, or HH, of entering into a 'death covenant' (asking me to put it aside and start discussing this and that). Good up to a point that you seemed to realize that something was amiss. Now can you take it one step further. There is no issue that shows the poison of some disaffected more than such vile language, trying to use a witchcraft and murderers term for a Christian communities sense of voluntary covenant and submission. When I raised the question I was hopeful that it would be dropped and we would go on. Perhaps Mr. Alvear would understand, or others. Yet we have not yet seen one person speak clearly and say ... 'no, this language is simply not right'. Not one. Is your spiritual politics more important than truth to all of you ? Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 269 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.177 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 6:12 am:        Ok, I have thought about it. I personally would use the terminology "covenant unto death" over "death covenant" for the Ruth scripture. But the fact is clear that she does pronounce a serious and severe curses on herself. The covenant one makes with HH is physically a severe "until death" covenant which should not be made by a Christian. I think it is safe to say with all integrity that it should be considered a "spiritual and eternal death covenant" because in HH doctrine and teachings your eternal salvation is on the line if you as a member don't submit fully to their authority for the rest of your life.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 270 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.177 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 6:46 am:        As a Christian our primary allegiance should be to God Himself. (In HH even saying a secondary pledge of allegiance to a flag or country is a no no. Yet they ask you to plege primary allegiance to the fathership of God as it comes through the elders and to their teachings and their group.) As a new testament Christian, who should be standing in direct relationship to Jesus, a person is wrong to say the oath of Ruth. To say "your God shall be my God" is putting your allegiance to the person in the primary position over God. It is my understanding that Ruth did not know Naomi’s God personally at this point. Her loyalty was first to Naomi. She was basing her loyalty to Naomi’s God on Naomi. If Naomi was to change her people or her God then the oath would stand to Naomi's new people and her new God. Ruth’s oath and love for Naomi was beautiful, but it would not be right for a born again Christian.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 605 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 8:20 am:        Foreverhis, your response is contradictory. Being caught in the middle on this question with a family member already disingenuously referring to good 'death covenants' is understandably awkward - but please try to write sensibly. First you say that a covenant like that of Ruth with Naomi and the children of Israel is a 'covenant unto death' and not a 'death covenant'. True enough, and critical. Then you turn around and say that any such covenant could be considered a 'spiritual and eternal death covenant' if it is really meaningful. By your logic you could apply that to Ruth as well, contradicting your first part. Your confusion in trying to come up with some rationale for the sick poison language of Mrs. Alvear is apparent. And I am also surprised that you actually attack the covenant of Ruth as well. One comment. In your rush to defend the undefendable you have not sought nor thought this deeply. "If Naomi was to change her people or her God then the oath would stand to Naomi's new people and her new God." 100% wrong. Ruth knew the God of Naomi, and in her entreaty she spoke very clearly .. "the LORD (Heb-Jehovah) do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me" Not baal or some new pagan deity.. For you to start to try to accuse Ruth by seeking to separate the covenant of Ruth and Naomi from the LORD God of Israel, and talk about Naomi switching gears to other pagan deities like baalpeor or priapus, and chemosh simply does not work. It is actually a crass insult to the beautiful story of Ruth. As John Gill points out .. "And Naomi said, turn again, my daughters,.... Supposing this resolution of theirs only arose from a natural affection, and not from any love to the God or people of Israel; at least doubting whether it was so or not, and willing to try whether anyone, or both of them, were really from a principle of religion inclined to go with her; and desirous that they would thoroughly consider what they did, lest they should repent and apostatize, and bring a reproach upon the true religion:" "thy people shall be my people; whom I shall choose to dwell among, and converse with; whose religion, laws, and customs she should readily comply with, having heard much of them, their wisdom, goodness, and piety, of which she had a specimen and an example in Naomi, and by whom she judged of the rest:" "and thy God my God; not Chemosh, nor Baalpeor, nor other gods of the Moabites, be they what they will, but Jehovah, the God of Naomi, and of the people of Israel." F-H, you simply fabricate a distinction that is not in the word of God. So I gather there are none, so far, among the opponents of HH who have integrity - all of you will spew or accept vicious poison like Mrs. Alvear's 'death covenant'. If you can try to get away with it. Or you will slink to the background. Or you will fabricate and hand-wave like t-h and f-h, who must come up with some attempt to defend the viscious poision asp language of Mrs. Alvear. Are they any among you with integrity who will say simply - "it is very wrong to refer to the HH fellowship covenant as a 'death covenant', a term that is used for witchcraft and murderers " Is there one who will speak righteously ? Shalom, Praxaluh   truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 297 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:09 am:        We are commanded to have no other God's. Serving a man as Christ is doing just that. Baal or Blair it makes no difference. Making a lifelong covenant to serve a man or image as god, is definitely a death covenant, hence the danger and why we fight it so.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1345 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.128.81.46 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 12:30 pm:        You are saying in so many words that my husband and are are not persons of integrity. Well, Prax your opinion matters little for you do not even know us...my husband and I are life long missionaries known and loved by thousands of Americans and Brazilians and other people. I will stand before the judge of the earth and I know what I have said is true and so do those that know me...Some of my friends visited there they felt the same thing I am saying... In no way is church membership like a marriage covenant...It is a sick way and a twisted way of trying to put fear into people's hearts. Many do not leave HH because of fear and knowing the price it will mean to split families... You Prax or Dowen have never proved anything I have said to be false. Neither have you proved forever his letter to be false or even th... All you do Prax is use you big words to impress but we are NOT impressed...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1346 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.128.81.46 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 12:36 pm:        You are saying in so many words that my husband and are are not persons of integrity. Well, Prax your opinion matters little for you do not even know us...my husband and I are life long missionaries known and loved by thousands of Americans and Brazilians and other people. I will stand before the judge of the earth and I know what I have said is true and so do those that know me...Some of my friends visited there they felt the same thing I am saying... In no way is church membership like a marriage covenant...It is a sick way and a twisted way of trying to put fear into people's hearts. Many do not leave HH because of fear and knowing the price it will mean to split families... You Prax or Dowen have never proved anything I have said to be false. Neither have you proved forever his letter to be false or even th... All you do Prax is use you big words to impress but we are NOT impressed...   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 930 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.88.91 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 1:08 pm:        You were clearly reluctant to start accusing Ruth, or a married couple, or HH, of entering into a 'death covenant' (asking me to put it aside and start discussing this and that). Good up to a point that you seemed to realize that something was amiss. Now can you take it one step further. Yes, I am reluctant to call anything a 'death covenant' until I am convinced that I have an adequate and accurate understanding of the covenant itself. TH gave his summary of the HH covenant -- he is obviously opposed to it; integrity demands that I also hear a proponent's interpretation. Apparently, you are adverse to discussing the distinctions of the covenant itself -- that would typically be viewed as a "red flag" by a thinking individual. I am trying to give you the opportunity to correct that perception but your responses only serves to enhance it. As far as I can tell, assuming it has been accurately presented by FH, the HH covenant lacks any biblical foundation. That is the deciding factor, IMHO, regardless of what anyone chooses to call it.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 271 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 1:56 pm:        Then you turn around and say that any such covenant could be considered a 'spiritual and eternal death covenant' if it is really meaningful. By your logic you could apply that to Ruth as well, contradicting your first part. There is a misunderstanding here. HH covenant goes way beyond Ruth’s oath or covenant with Naomi. Their covenant is far from as brief and simple. People in HH do stand up during Sunday meetings, (looking straight at BA,) and quote the verses out of Ruth, but there is A LOT more to the HH covenant than these verses. I will leave it up to you to publish their covenant here. As far as I know, no one ever tied Ruth’s covenant with Naomi to her salvation. More later, FH   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 606 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 2:47 pm:        Mrs. Alvear, "You are saying in so many words that my husband and are are not persons of integrity." If Mr. Alvear is also using the poison tongue of 'death covenant' (he can write his own words so we can know if he is also bound in poison) .. and if you brazenly continue in such poisonous speech .. yes, then it is 100% accurate to say, before God and man, that neither of you have integrity. You can do 100 church services here and there .. have accolades and more .. be a feted missionary .. sleep in mosquito tents and have dinners with presidents .. If you cannot have the integrity to stop a poison tongue smear, to call as witchcraft or suicide murderers a Christian covenant agreement (whether you are favorable to it or not) then that is 100% correct, Mrs. Alvear.. Neither you nor your husband, on a basic foundational issue, has integrity. Nothing else would need to be proven false (not that you have ears to hear) .. since by your poison tongue obstinancy you prove yourself a brazen liar before God and man. In the name of Jesus Christ, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 608 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 3:11 pm:        Foreverhis, you continue to be, as before, and as shown to you, essentially clueless about Ruth, Naomi and the God of Israel. And such could be a good discussion in its own right, in the proper environment. I do hope you at least read the John Gill commentary carefully. And I believe that you know in the depth of your being the truth on this, that the 'death covenant' accusation is sick and poison. Yet with your own family and political allies involved you simply do not have the courage to speak the truth. Tis sad. T-H, your trying to support the poison tongue is simply expected. Your tongue is aflame as is that of Mrs. Alvear. C-S, we could discuss such issues properly elsewhere. I simply will not discuss the nuances that you propose in the midst of such poison. Exactly what are the biblical standards, does this conform in that manner. Any discussion here and now is far, far worse than tainted unless and until some show integrity. Where are the men and women of integrity ? Who will speak a true word even when unpopular, even when it does not fit the expected mode. Who among the disaffected will say .. "much as I have distance from HH, much as I do not accept their views and community and patterns, I will not turn my tongue over to wickedness .. I reject the term 'death covenant', the witchcraft and suicide/murderers pact term, completely and fully, 100% .. such poison will not come from my lips and I recoil when it comes from others, even friends and family" Apparently we have not one on this forum. Among the disaffected there are none who will speak righteously. Shalom, Praxaluh   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 931 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.88.91 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 3:57 pm:        As far as I know, no one ever tied Ruth’s covenant with Naomi to her salvation. And that is the crux of the issue. If HH in any way ties their covenant to eternal salvation, then it is definitely UN-biblical and ANTI-life. And any covenant that opposes, takes away from, or adds to the covenant of eternal life given by God Himself through the death, burial and resurrection of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, is indeed a "death covenant" of one sort or another! Prax, You are NOT my standard for righteousness neither are you the judge of righteousness. Discuss the issues, man, and leave off the self-righteous grandstanding! Let each one's (including yours) integrity speak for itself.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 272 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 4:22 pm:        Praxaluh, Post HH's entire covenant and let’s go over it line by line. You can't because it is literally contained in volumes. Even if you could post it here, no one but members and ex-members would understand the underlying meanings of the words that had been redefined in previous volumes. Homestead has a 40 page synopsis of sorts, (like a statement of faith,) that touches on the basics of what is required by members. Readers can get a copy of it from Watchmen Fellowship 817-277-0023.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 273 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 4:32 pm:        Praxaluh, can you agree with this? If HH in any way ties their covenant to eternal salvation, then it is definitely UN-biblical and ANTI-life. And any covenant that opposes, takes away from, or adds to the covenant of eternal life given by God Himself through the death, burial and resurrection of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, is indeed a "death covenant" of one sort or another! Also: If according to any group's doctrine; breaking covenant with that group, without repentance for doing so, also means breaking covenant with God and supposedly results in eternal spiritual death, is it a death covenant????? (Message edited by foreverhis on October 12, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 274 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 4:47 pm:        Ruth's oath and any other oath, especialy one containing a curse against yourself, is wrong for Christians: Matt 5:33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. KJV (Message edited by foreverhis on October 12, 2006)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 275 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 6:49 pm:        Just a sample: The following are some excerpts from one of H.H.’s books, “How Do You Know?” From Page 71 .... ''Consequently, you're no longer foreigners and aliens but fellow citizens with God's people, members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the Chief cornerstone” (Eph. 2:19- 20). To be built up as part of God's household means being plumbed to the cornerstone, being in line with the life of Jesus Christ; and this will occur when we line ourselves up with the authorities in His Body, apostles and prophets (1Cor. 12:28), who are lined up to the cornerstone. HH means their Apostle, Blair Adams, and the prophet in HH, Howard Wheeler. This also means the writings of these two, of which there are many volumes. There are quite a bit of their writings discussed on the thread, "Doctrines of Homestead Heritage"   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 336 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:11 pm:        Prax, I really liked one part of your post. You said…… “You are correct that the groups you mentioned above…….” UG…..Any time you think I am right about anything it makes my day. Prax said…..“Suffice to say, my understanding about the HH view is different than you proclaim. And I simply do not consider people who distort so much of HH as reliable as conduits of interpretation.” UG….I could not have said it better myself so……“Suffice to say, my understanding about the HH view is different than you proclaim. And I simply do not consider people who distort so much of HH as reliable as conduits of interpretation.” Prax said….“A good example of this is the gross and ugly usage of the term 'death covenant' by Mrs. Alvear. Any honest reader should recoil and actually chastise this abominable usage -- yet you give such a free pass because it is against HH.” UG….Definition of an honest reader is one that agrees with you. As for giving a free pass because it is "against HH" with that logic you could dismiss virtually any doctrine. Come on Prax you can do better than that. The “death covenant” has been discussed many times by at least a dozen different posters. HH has misapplied the “marriage covenant” and Ruth’s promise to Naomi into a “death covenant” that God never intended. In your baptism discussion would you include a vow like HH uses that has been displayed here on factnet? Under Grace continues…   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 337 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:44 pm:        Prax, I really liked one part of your post. You said…… “You are correct that the groups you mentioned above…….” UG…..Any time you think I am right about anything it makes my day. Prax said…..“Suffice to say, my understanding about the HH view is different than you proclaim. And I simply do not consider people who distort so much of HH as reliable as conduits of interpretation.” UG….I could not have said it better myself so……“Suffice to say, my understanding about the HH view is different than you proclaim. And I simply do not consider people who distort so much of HH as reliable as conduits of interpretation.” Prax said….“A good example of this is the gross and ugly usage of the term 'death covenant' by Mrs. Alvear. Any honest reader should recoil and actually chastise this abominable usage -- yet you give such a free pass because it is against HH.” UG….Definition of an honest reader is one that agrees with you. As for giving a free pass because it is "against HH" with that logic you could dismiss virtually any doctrine. Come on Prax you can do better than that. The “death covenant” has been discussed many times by at least a dozen different posters. HH has misapplied the “marriage covenant” and Ruth’s promise to Naomi into a “death covenant” that God never intended. In your baptism discussion would you include a vow like HH uses that has been displayed here on factnet? Under Grace continues…   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 609 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:07 am:        U-G "The “death covenant” has been discussed many times by at least a dozen different posters." This phrase has been a constant refrain of Mrs. Alvear (with perhaps some seconding from T-H). In fact I would say it has been the primary aspect of her attacks. She is so bound in the darkness of her pet phrase that she refuses to have any sense or understanding. I didn't notice or remember that others like yourself were as similarly sick and poisoned. Others had some restraint, some caution, tongues not on fire. We see now that you have now embraced poison for politics. Or you are playing dumb. For you to take on this refrain now makes me view you in a very low light, U-G. Rather than your attempts at nominally careful language you also now embrace the poison of asps. In the Latin culture this is an even darker and uglier usage than in our land .. in English folks play semantic games to try to find a justification as we see in the thread. There is no fellowship with those who use such viper language against Christian covenant. (And it makes no difference whether you parse this or that or agree with that or this. Or if you object on this basis or that basis. That is a whole nother discussion. One could have a wide or narrow view of these issues, exactly what is the scriptural direction and imperative, and still have a guarded tongue seeking to be under the Holy Spirit.) Mrs. Alvear bound herself in iniquity with the poison tongue and now we see the same from a socalled 'Under_Grace'. For your embrace of such a witchcraft and murderers and brujería phrase a better name for you to take would be viper. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1348 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:21 am:        Prax I feel sorry for you...   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 338 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:33 am:        Prax, I do not recall you taking up for UG, FH, or TH when Daniel said we were all worse than the terrorist from nine-eleven or the suicide bombers. Maybe you did and I just missed it. The covenant that HH has created is not the New Covenant that we have in Christ it is not even the Old Covenant that God gave to Abraham and repeated to David. Even in the Old Covenant righteousness came by faith. Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. The New Covenant says… 2CO 3:4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter (is the old covenant) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. How do we enter into the New Covenant (and the righteousness contain in the NC)? By faith! Just like the Old Covenant. We enter in the OC and the NC thus receiving the righteousness that comes by faith. Prax, you are making a distinction between “covenant unto death” and a “death covenant”. I do not see it. I made a death covenant with my wife. I have sworn that nothing will separate us until death. The word divorce is not in our vocabulary. Like Ruth we (my wife and I) entered into that covenant seriously so seriously that we have committed our very lives to the covenant. With a suicide bomber the commitment (covenant) unto death or death covenant is real and final, just like my wife and I in our marriage covenant. The distinction is not in the commitment but in what you are giving your life for. With my wife and I we are have a covenant unto death first to our Savior and then to each other. I have no problem with the commitment or the covenant. The problem in HH is BA / HW have taken parts of the marriage covenant and Ruth’s covenant put it in a forty page document and made a covenant amongst themselves something that Christ reserved for himself only. New Covenant in Christ is given as a gift through faith. (Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God). The covenant unto death or death covenant puts a curse on one’s self to the Elder’s of HH and kept by obeying ALL the laws they have created in HH and even the future laws that will be created. Again it is not the severity of the covenant it is to what or whom you are making the covenant with. Does anyone out there understand what I am saying? Prax you said….. “The issue is very clear. Whether you agree fully with the HH view or not (I remember that you (FH) were appreciative that you were released from your covenant) what Mrs. Alvear is doing is one of the sickest uses of terminology I have ever seen.’ I do not recall FH saying she was released from her covenant. I knew of only one couple that was “released” their “death covenant” (as if HH had the power to release one from a false covenant that God never intended in the first place). Prax, if it is not a “death covenant” that one enters into in HH, then why is it that FH, UG, TH, The General and hundreds of others have been condemned by HH to an eternal death if we do not repent and re-enter HH’s covenant? Please answer this one Prax. Really glad I have found a place of safety…… Under Grace   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1349 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:45 am:        We make a covenant to GOD not to man...not to a system... Making a covenant to the system of HH would have meant spiritual death for the Brazil work...our family and no doubt a separation of true friends...NO God does not require we make a death…until death do us part to some man made organization... When leaders are insecure I have seen them force their people into all kinds of things... True leaders do not have to drive sheep...you lead sheep. True leaders do not have to put people in chains to make them "willing" servants. We are "bond" slaves to Him that called us...to Him that saved us...not to some man made cult that requires separation and shunning of families because they don't go to the same church... If there is a thing as "BIBLE" shunning and in some cases there may be a reason...it is NOT because you leave HH...or JW or Amish or anything like that... If I have to "brainwash" my people then I will back out for I do not believe that is God's plan...If I have to drive my people to murder then I will back out for I do not believe that is God's plan...If I have to live a double life...one for the outside world and another one at church then I will back out... If I have to call a meeting every time someone request baptism to see if they are ready then I will back out for that is not Bible... If I have to SCARE my people about the real world then I will back out. If their experience with God is not enough to have a normal job, live a normal life, visit other churches and people then I will back out...I refuse to teach my people that they are the "ONLY" ones with God's highest revelation... I refuse to lie... Deception knows no ends...and men with "other plans" know how to kill, steal and destroy and use God's name the whole time. I refuse to be part of a system that dictates to people their every move... I have rather be a part of the ragmuffin gospel than HH...and I do not believe the ragmuffin theory…but at least mercy is shown… Prax from your tongue sprees evil accusations and lies and judging of me and my family and my husband feels 100 times stronger against HH than I ever could…He hates everything about HH…at least I have acknowledged a few good aspects. My husband sees all evil and no good there. You are an example of their great intelligence…you are always right your spirit is right everyone else is wrong or beneath your spiritual level… Un Prax has no real answers he is just a bluff and a front for hh...he is becoming a laughing stock...trying to indoctrinate us into something and somewhere he does not he form a part of ...poor guy...he is lost in the maze...   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 932 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.88.91 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:48 am:        There is no fellowship with those who use such viper language against Christian covenant. How can a covenant which is unbiblical and adds to/distorts the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ be considered "Christian"?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1350 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:51 am:        We make a covenant to GOD not to man...not to a system... Making a covenant to the system of HH would have meant spiritual death for the Brazil work...our family and no doubt a separation of true friends...NO God does not require we make a death…until death do us part to some man made organization... When leaders are insecure I have seen them force their people into all kinds of things... True leaders do not have to drive sheep...you lead sheep. True leaders do not have to put people in chains to make them "willing" servants. We are "bond" slaves to Him that called us...to Him that saved us...not to some man made cult that requires separation and shunning of families because they don't go to the same church... If there is a thing as "BIBLE" shunning and in some cases there may be a reason...it is NOT because you leave HH...or JW or Amish or anything like that... If I have to "brainwash" my people then I will back out for I do not believe that is God's plan...If I have to drive my people to murder then I will back out for I do not believe that is God's plan...If I have to live a double life...one for the outside world and another one at church then I will back out... If I have to call a meeting every time someone request baptism to see if they are ready then I will back out for that is not Bible... If I have to SCARE my people about the real world then I will back out. If their experience with God is not enough to have a normal job, live a normal life, visit other churches and people then I will back out...I refuse to teach my people that they are the "ONLY" ones with God's highest revelation... I refuse to lie... Deception knows no ends...and men with "other plans" know how to kill, steal and destroy and use God's name the whole time. I refuse to be part of a system that dictates to people their every move... I have rather be a part of the ragmuffin gospel than HH...and I do not believe the ragmuffin theory…but at least mercy is shown… Prax from your tongue sprees evil accusations and lies and judging of me and my family and my husband feels 100 times stronger against HH than I ever could…He hates everything about HH…at least I have acknowledged a few good aspects. My husband sees all evil and no good there. You are an example of their great intelligence…you are always right your spirit is right everyone else is wrong or beneath your spiritual level… Un Prax has no real answers he is just a bluff and a front for hh...he is becoming a laughing stock...trying to indoctrinate us into something and somewhere he does not he form a part of ...poor guy...he is lost in the maze...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1351 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:54 am:        Facts sent to me... They endorse lying to visitors to protect their image and promote their organization. They open their doors to the public to fill their pockets but post guards at the entrance to their ‘church’ to stop non-members from attending their worship service. I hesitate to call it a church because of this. They disown and put out members considering divorce to protect their image to the public. Once divorced, only one of the couple may return with permission. To join them you must sign a contract vowing to never leave their group; they say to do so will bring the wrath of God upon you. They do not allow dating and they control who marries whom. They claim to have special understanding from God and say they think there is other Christians out in the world somewhere they just haven’t found them yet. Their leader laughs at other churches and condemns most all of them. Their founder, BA, has two children who ran away from them as soon as they were old enough to leave. Some of his other children are not old enough yet. Their number two man, HW, has two children who left the group. A third tried to join the military to get away from them but a car accident threw him back into their control. When a member leaves they crucify the person in front of the congregation and demand no one have anything to do with the person that departed. There are many other facts but these 10 come to mind at the moment.   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 339 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:01 am:        Hey Prax, You are eloquent in your speech and you seem to know your snakes. However you are missing the forest for the trees. You are calling us all snakes (well at least FH, TH, ML and UG specifically) for using the term “death covenant’ as opposed to “covenant unto death”. The result is the same people are calling down curses (unto death) on themselves if they ever leave HH fellowship. Prax surely you can see that is not God. Maybe they did not do that when you were in HH but they did when I was in. I remember having meetings when someone would leave or not come to their disfellowship meeting and listen to the curses that would be added to the offenses of the person leaving. There were a few times I would get this sick feeling in my stomach but still glad it was not me the meeting was about. Then one day it happened to me. I heard through the grapevine what was said about my wife and I and it would curl your hair to repeat it. Prax, we do not make these stories up. As far as HH is concerned my only hope for salvation is to repent and return to HH. Same goes for almost every ex-member on this discussion board. Two exceptions are you and Daniel. Daniel was never a member which explains his pass. You have not been in since most of these written vows were and death covenants were given. (Before you say it I know that UPC has always acknowledged the New Covenant as a part of their teaching and BA has done that since his early ministry, however it is not even close to what HH teaches today). Call it a “covenant unto death” or “death covenant” the result is still the same when it is made to men instead of Jesus. Still abiding ……. Under Grace   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1352 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:09 am:        Prax you are sounding brass and tinkling cymbals fro HH… Yes my family IS WORKING FOR the LORD and who are you to judge some family you do not even know?????????? I see in you no attributes as a Christian. For you knowledge my husband is in Mexico preaching right now…My oldest son is in Washington state preaching a youth camp, another son is traveling preaching here in the states and I am speaking at a ladies meeting right now… Another son is in the Amazon jungle preaching to two fierce Indian tribes that are at war with one another and as a mother I am deeply in prayer for him several times a day. Other boys and son in laws are traveling in many areas of Brazil preaching, if you like it or not we are working for our dear Lord. Your criticism only serves as fuel to the fire to evangelize more and more and tell the story of Jesus. And all over Brazil our people are taking the gospel to the lost…   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1353 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:11 am:        Prax you are sounding brass and tinkling cymbals for HH… Yes my family IS WORKING FOR the LORD and who are you to judge some family you do not even know?????????? I see in you no attributes as a Christian. For you knowledge my husband is in Mexico preaching right now…My oldest son is in Washington state preaching a youth camp, another son is traveling preaching here in the states and I am speaking at a ladies meeting right now… Another son is in the Amazon jungle preaching to two fierce Indian tribes that are at war with one another and as a mother I am deeply in prayer for him several times a day. Other boys and son in laws are traveling in many areas of Brazil preaching, if you like it or not we are working for our dear Lord. Your criticism only serves as fuel to the fire to evangelize more and more and tell the story of Jesus. And all over Brazil our people are taking the gospel to the lost…   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1354 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:12 am:        It is not a covenant to God but to weak men that use props to scare people into some strange doctrine... Ruth and Naomi has nothing to do with the unbiblical covenant at HH...twisting scripture is both dangerous and sinful.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1355 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.203.148 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:45 am:        You are consumed with hatred for someone you do not even know Prax....   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 612 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:52 am:        I do not recall you taking up for UG, FH, or TH when Daniel said we were all worse than the terrorist from nine-eleven or the suicide bombers. Maybe you did and I just missed it. Your memory is faded. I came on the forum quite critical of some harsh accusatory language of Daniel and the fella who left. And I continued to share privately in that regard (that you would not know) suggesting that a moderate tone is more helpful and accurate. And I never defended such language, not once. Nor would I ignore an appeal to speak. I similarly point out that your group would make noxious comparisons to Hitler and Jim Jones, which is the type of dung to which Daniel was often responding. Now I skip to the astounding part. Remember I in essence asked before if you were 'playing dumb'. you are making a distinction between “covenant unto death” and a “death covenant”. Absolutely. 100%. The distinction is clear and strong and even stronger in the Latin culture and language. A 'death covenant' is brujeria, witchcraft, an alliance with the legions of darkness. Anyone who does not make such a distinction is totally dishonest. I do not see it. I made a death covenant with my wife. Maybe you are not playing dumb. Maybe you really are that obtuse. Maybe you actually run in circles that say - "my darling wife and I entered a 'death convenant' a 'pacto de muerte'". Tell me, when is the last time you had friends over and discussed your death covenants with your lovely wives ? Or you had a Bible study and discussed the 'death covenant' of Ruth with Naomi and the people and God of Israel ? With a suicide bomber the commitment (covenant) unto death or death covenant is real and final, just like my wife and I in our marriage covenant. The distinction is not in the commitment but in what you are giving your life for. The suicide bomber vows to kill. That is the death he puts himself on the line for. Or an assasins group that says 'we will kill the King' may enter a death covenant. eg. not to eat until they kill. Or a possessed person involved in brujeria enters a 'pacto de muerte' with the forces of darkness. And you actually go forth and compare your marriage covenant in this way ? Just to try to defend the poison language of Mrs. Alvear ? "The covenant unto death or death covenant.." the language of the viper Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 613 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 2:23 am:        Mrs. Alvear ".. who are you to judge some family you do not even know??????????" Mrs. Alvear, it is your own words that judge you. Clearly I would much prefer to be saying kind words to you. To try to share and see and dialog and listen and assist. Even something so simple, as clear as a sunny day - that it is an abomination for you to use the brujeria term 'pacto de muerte' or 'death covenant' in your animus and accusations .. you simply cannot receive. You insist on poison. You are accountable before God for such words.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 276 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.101 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 7:57 am:        Praxaluh, If according to any group's doctrine; breaking covenant with that group, without repentance for doing so, also means breaking covenant with God and supposedly results in eternal spiritual death, is it a death covenant????? I do not speak Latin and I can not argue on that level, I speak English, so I am asking, in English, could you call this a death covenant? I can. And because it distorts the God of the true Biblical Covenants and is a "different gospel" than Paul preached, I call it evil. And because any man or woman who is counting on these men to bring them to salvation, (instead of the one and only Lord Jesus Christ,) will not be saved; I can, with all integrity, call it an eternal spiritual death covenant. (Message edited by foreverhis on October 13, 2006)   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1356 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.215.190.138 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 10:29 am:        The covenant of HH is not Biblical...don't try to add to God's precious salvation plan Prax...In the last days they teach that you too will come running to them for spiritual food...they are just using you like they used me and my family...YOUR experience if you have one means nothing to them...go there and find out...you were once there REMEMBER..you did not stay and would not go back and sit under them...Why because your personality is not an errand boy type...and leader there you will never be...quit trying to hold up for something that you do not live...if you think it is biblical then you should be there by all means... If I know anything at all about God and His plan and His ways...that place is a cult. I am sorry to say those plain words but with the force, the pressure they tryed to put on us there was no way we could even be there friends...they came to the little cabin and tried to force us to make a decision...we have never been back... Maybe they ought to take you in some little back room and try to force you...I DO KNOW what I am talking about...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1357 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.215.190.138 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 10:31 am:        The covenant of HH is not Biblical...don't try to add to God's precious salvation plan Prax...In the last days they teach that you too will come running to them for spiritual food...they are just using you like they used me and my family...YOUR experience if you have one means nothing to them...go there and find out...you were once there REMEMBER..you did not stay and would not go back and sit under them...Why because your personality is not an errand boy type...and leader there you will never be...quit trying to hold up for something that you do not live...if you think it is biblical then you should be there by all means... If I know anything at all about God and His plan and His ways...that place is a cult. I am sorry to say those plain words but with the force, the pressure they tryed to put on us there was no way we could even be there friends...they came to the little cabin and tried to force us to make a decision...we have never been back... Maybe they ought to take you in some little back room and try to force you...I DO KNOW what I am talking about...   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 614 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 1:28 pm:        foreverhis "death covenant .. I can" Only as a poisonous, lying viper. This simple, clear, transparent and powerful terminology issue - watching the gross abomination of supposedly Christian folks using witchcraft and brujeria and murder terminology (instead of being willing to use proper language)has really defined many of the posters here. And shown them to be defiled. Including foreverhis. And put the lie to any idea that these folks really think this term is equivalent to a lifetime covenant 'death do you part' or 'covenant unto death'. What a brazen lie that is shown to be. We are warned to touch not the unclean thing. And that includes the posters here with tongues of poison. Personally for awhile I gave f-h the benefit of the doubt, since she is pulled by family and political allies - but she has also given herself over to the lying tongue of poison, based on the above. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 619 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 2:18 pm:        Mrs. Alvear, you and now foreverhis have shown yourself to have the poisonous tongues of vipers. You were approached with a simple truth, a simple request, clear as a sunny day. And you brazenly rejected it.. you still want to poison the air with your - 'pacto de muert