| Author | Message | ||
     cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 554 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
What's everyone's spin on Bill Winston (Forest Park, Illinois)? Have caught him on TV a little and know a few people who attend his church; is he a run-of-the-mill WOF teacher? | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 234 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.175.6.17 |
This should answer your question. He states emphatically that he is a prosperity preacher. I KNOW this for a fact. http://www.chicagofaithconference.org/ (Message edited by gsrh on September 13, 2006) | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 626 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Winston definitely isn't perfect but the good there far outweighs the negative. This is not a run of he mill church. The church does things others could take note of including starting their own bank, income producing property etc. The people are loving, prayer warriors, and great. The church is multicultural. Yes he does believe in prosperity versus being poor. . .Having enough to give to every good work and need is better than being poor and what the scripture says in 2Cor9. He does believe in good stewardship of your money and resources and practices it himself. The church has special ministries including job and business classes to help people in all areas. Instead of the huge expense of building a big church, he bought and renovated an income producing mall with KMart, County Buffet, an Ultra Foods along with others that pay the church rent which covers the mortgage. He is pretty good at stewardship. Also they pay off the debts monthly of people who are in need and have financial problems. Winston also gets many people saved at all his services. They are then immediately prayed with, counseled, baptised in the Holy Spirt, and baptised in water the same day during the break between services. They have many ministries for all and probably one of the best Christian Bookstores in the Chicagoland area. | ||
| jbkrems Advanced Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 861 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.182.69.188 |
I do not watch Bill Winston on TV, but I've seen him on Ken Copeland's show, and I like what he has to say. I believe he has done a lot of good for Forest Park, in terms of economic development. They have started their own bank, have income-producing property, and so forth. I basically agree with trs and what she said above. | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 235 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.175.6.17 |
What he did was start a holding corporation. With the monies that are held in the holding company, he is able to purchase banks, businesses, etc. They attempted to start a bank but ran into a few complications. Therefore, they started the holding company in order to facilitate their business ventures. I used to be a member. | ||
| trsrinheaven New member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Winston has gone over to the stupid side. He now has a place on his offering envelopes titled "Airplane Fund". He talked on his tv show about his tour to the Gulfstream airplane factory in Georgia. He mentioned how the airplane he wants to purchase starts at $44 million dollars. He then tried to justify this unecessaarya status symbol and ridiculous expense. He stated how he likes it when Kenneth Copeland says "even a janitor can have a jet." This $50 million dollar jet costs $5,000 per hour in jet fuel to fly. It also costs large amounts of money for crew, rental space, landing fees, licenses, and expensive maintenance. He can fly anywhere in the United States for less than $600 advance booking. Who are these brain dead bad stewards of Gods offering money and the ignorant bad stewards that give him the money. So many people could be won to Christ if only the same money was put in the hands of a called person who has a heart for people. Bill Winston is no pastor. He is just a self proclaimed teacher masquerading as a pastor. He calls himself that to get his cash cow headquarters to base himself. His church is just a teaching center with no evangelism done outside the four walls of the auditorium. He spends his money on his toys and his status symbols from his religious formatted show geared to Christians. In the meantime millions go into a Godless eternity and millions of people need help with the bare necessities. This airplane thing is the next thing after their Rolex watch thing, $5,000 suits, $150,000 cars and million dollar mansions. | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
trsrinheaven, On Thursday, September 14, 2006 you said about Winston, "He does believe in good stewardship of your money and resources and practices it himself." Now on May 31, 2007 Winston has become a "brain dead bad stewards of Gods offering money". Wow, that's a quick transformation. You would have thought there would be some kind of warning that he was going over to "the stupid side". You know, I have a simple litmus test I use to determine whether or not a minister can be trusted with your money .... it's called TITHING. If any minister tells you that you must tithe in order to be blessed financially by God, that person cares more about money than they do the truth .... therefore, they CANNOT be trusted with your money. Try it ... it works for me. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 136 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Or they encourage you to tithe so that you will be blessed by God. One more thing, if there is no Church board that is elected by the congregation, if it is "pastoral rule", if there is no regular financial report - run, fast, and guard your wallet. | ||
| trsrinheaven New member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff I understand what you are saying mcmstaff. Since I have only visited the church and know others who on staff I didn't see it coming. Many of the best intentioned people have started out right but once the flow of money seduced them they fell. Jesus said you cannot serve money and God. The problem is these people don't see their own shallowness choosing the worlds status symbols over reaching people. The other problem is that so many desperate baby Christians are seduced by the surface, the looks and they lack knowledge and Holy Spirit sensitivity to discern good from evil. Hebrews 5 and Luke 16. These people are so desperate for a pastor they accept anyone not knowing what a real pastor is. Winston changed in the last ten months. The problem is deceived and spineless others don't see it yet. | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
Winston changed in the last ten months. The problem is deceived and spineless others don't see it yet.  He changed or you changed ..... maybe YOU were one of the "deceived and spineless" ten months ago. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.185.227.91 |
MCM, I have a question for you. Earlier you suggested (see your post 136) that churches should have church boards elected by their respective congregations. Would you please share with all of us where that idea is found in the Scriptures - ??? Thanks, friend. | ||
| trsrinheaven Junior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems, To some that is the same as asking where the idea of using cocaine is found in scripture? There are not always specific scriptures that give outlines but there are specific scriptures regarding all behaviors, the responsibility of all Christians in all situations, and the use of Gods wisdom. Here are just a few of the many scriptures of Gods wisdom and direction to leadership and to all Christians. Jesus also points out stewardship in Luke 16. They are all to be above reproach, with good reputations. 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." The idea of any Christian ESPECIALLY Leadership or ministries using BAD Stewardship of Gods property is throughout the bible. Gods property is defined but not limited to as our life, our body, and all things created in the earth and universe. "God created the earth and all things in it." "We are bought with a price, so glorify God in your life and body" "Be wise as a serpent BUT INNOCENT AS A DOVE" "Furthermore, a bishop must have a good reputation and be well thought of by those outside [the church], lest he become involved in slander and incur reproach(to God and his people) and fall into the devil's trap. Now a bishop (superintendent, overseer) must give no grounds for accusation but must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, circumspect and temperate and self-controlled; [he must be] sensible and well behaved and dignified and lead an orderly (disciplined) life; [he must be] hospitable [showing love for and being a friend to the believers, especially strangers or foreigners, and be] a capable and qualified teacher, 3Not given to wine, not combative but gentle and considerate, not quarrelsome but forbearing and peaceable, and not a lover of money [or insatiable for wealth and ready to obtain it by questionable means]. 8In like manner the deacons [must be] worthy of respect, not shifty and double-talkers but sincere in what they say, not given to much wine, not greedy for base gain [craving wealth and resorting to ignoble, deceiving and dishonest methods of getting it]. 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;" 1 Timothy 3 10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake." Titus 7-11 | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.189.81.234 |
TRS, I agree with you that church leaders and elders need to be good stewards. But that isn't my point, or the point of mcmstaff. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that elders are to be ordained, not elected by the congregation. The idea of a democratically-elected board of elders or directors, chosen by the congregation, and not ordained, is against the grain of Scriptures. This is why I asked MCM the question where the validity of that is found. He is yet to answer. | ||
| trsrinheaven Junior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems, There is no wierd hyperspiritual way that some pastor, teacher, prophet, evanglist or apostle is chosen or above anyone. God ordains and those that show and display the fruit of a ministry office will be shown to be of that office ordained by God. Bill Winston is not a pastor. Bill Winston is a preacher, self appointed teacher passing himself off masquerading and calling himself a pastor. The wof camp is full of these. That is why so many of their churches suffer. The overzealous followers in their desire to have a word church jump in without knowing the difference. The "wof" camp has hindered, frustrated, and "quenched the Holy Spirit" in their services, preaching people to death. They have kicked the Holy Spirit out of their church, in favor of themselves running the whole show. They preach people to death. Some have even given them some word but they fail miserably to put that word into use. They do not allow the gifts to flow freely in their services. They quench the worship and cut the Holy Spirit off. They give no time to wait on the Holy Spirit and allow those attending to be led of the spirit. They NEVER corporately sing in the spirit and desire the Holy Spirit to move. They never teach on the Holy Spirit, the gifts, and its power yet the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible. They call themselves "word" people? One second of the "power" of the Holy Spirit can do more than a hundred teaching sessions. Recently Bill Winston is pushing some more error on people to get their money for his agenda. He is using error to get them riled up to lust after money. He teaches they are kings and he is a priest. He said the congregation is to go out and get the money and to come in and give the money to him because he is the priest. In reward for this they can then have that new mercedes, mansion or even an airplane. What a contrived flesh motivation with bad stewardship. Why give money to Winston who does NO EVANGELISM, and only spends the money on his airplanes and luxuries of rich living. The Bible calls all of us that we are now BOTH kings and priests. It says we are now in the priesthood of all believers made possible by the finished work of the high priest Jesus. We have been made by Jesus both kings and priests to operate and rule AND reign in life as a king and priest.Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Come] and, like living stones, be yourselves built [into] a spiritual house, for a holy (dedicated, consecrated) priesthood, to offer up [those] spiritual sacrifices [that are] acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2 9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 1 Peter 2 | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.189.81.234 |
TRS, Let me make a few comments. I completely agree with you that "God ordains and those that show and display the fruit of a ministry office will be shown to be of that office ordained by God." Amen and Amen. However, TRS --- my point to MCM is that people are ORDAINED, they are NOT elected by a church or congregation. Does that make sense? Do you understand the concept of ordination versus democratic election - ???? Please say you do. Now, as regards to Bill Winston, I do believe he is a pastor --- and I do believe he is ordained. He does have credentials with ORU, and I believe that is a good thing. We probably disagree over that, but that is NOT my main point. My main point is the fact that church elder boards need to be ORDAINED, and NOT democratically-elected. Understand - ??? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 156 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
People are ordained to do the work of the ministry, the business affairs of a local organization are a different matter. Even for the people who are "ordained", the people should have some say. The first deacons were "nominated", if you will, by the people. Church rule should be conciliar, it should involve both clergy and the people, not just the clergy. Anytime you put all authority in the hands of a few you do yourselves and those people a diservice - power corrupts and all men are subject to that temptation, as recent history bears out. Large sums of money with no accountability make it practically inevitable that one succumb to a love of money, even if only incrementally at first. To neglect a conciliar process that provides both accountability and protection from false accusations is good for those "in charge" and those "in the pew". To insist otherwise is to engage in hubris and deception - which is what we consistently see from this corner of organized religion. | ||
| trsrinheaven Junior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff I totally agree. Being ordained as a pastor etc., does not make you a good steward. Sitting in a garage doesn't make you a car. These people masquerading as pastors are not qualified to build buildings, spread the Gospel, or to take care of the individual needs of the congregation. They raise up teaching centers and call it a church. These preachers are calling themselves pastors when they are not. A pastor cares about all the needs of the people and their relationship with God, their families and others. This new breed of teacher/preachers have found a place to teach ONLY and forget the people and all the different ministeries of a church. They are just teaching centers with so many things lacking because they are not churches, and these guys are not pastors. These people kicked the Holy Spirit out. They don't allow the gifts to flow. They don't faciltitate the ministry gifts of the members. They teach for hours beyond what a physical body can sit for and few things change. They neglect the youth, the marriages, the seniors, the singles and most of the important ministry basics every church needs. The first leadership was nominated, appointed and voted on by the peoples approval. There are guidelines listed in Timothy, Titus and elsewhere for deacons, Bishops etc. jbkrems, I understand what you are saying. Even Paul who was not a Pastor but an Apostle had leadership he was responsible to such as Peter the other disciples, the counsel etc. On the otherhand pastor should not nitpicked by a committee or hindered by their lack of faith to accomplish Gods will, but at the same time should have scriptural guidelines to work within. Carte Blanche with the offering money and checkbook without some checks in place lead to nothing but problems. Everywhere the Bible calls having groups of counsel as wisdom, counting the costs, and having workmen going in groups "two by two" etc. Nowhere does God say or show it as a lone ranger position to be a pastor of a church. Displayed everywhere the local churches had a counsel of deacons and elders that ran the church. Some ministry was teaching, some serving directly to the needs of people but all of these were equal. The pendulum has swung too far in rebellion to the overbearing and micromanaging congregations and their elder set up. They hindered many a pastor. God believes in agreement. The church as a whole can come into agreement with each other on the important things. Problems always arise when they do not consult the people and involve them in the process. This has never been wise ministry. "There is wisdom, and safety in the multitude and abundance of counsel" Proverbs Minor decisions like what color to paint the walls, or type of carpet should be left to those with good taste and good stewardship of the money. Jbkrems, Why are some good churches so small and other churches so large? What is Gods will on the subject? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 160 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
I think it's instructive that so many WoF "churches" began by calling themselves "centers" instead - and many still do. Good point TRS, a man is not a pastor simply because he calls himself one. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.189.81.234 |
MCM, I think there is a difference between an elder board, which governs the spiritual affairs of the church, and a deacon board. Here's the catch, though. I do not believe deacons EVER were in charge of finances to the extent of the budget. They might have been in charge of taking the offerings, and things like that, but the budget was probably set by the elders, and not the deacons. Elders, were NEVER "elected" by the congregation (you're correct that deacons were), and so it really is the pastor and the elders who govern the church --- that is what the gift of kubernesis is all about. Also, MCM, as you know, I believe that accountability of the pastor as regards to finances comes from apostolic oversight outside the congregation, not from the pew. By the way, MCM, my church has changed its name a few years ago from a "center" name to a "church" name. We're not the only church in OKC to do so. TRS, I think we would agree that plurality of eldership on the local level and apostolic oversight from the outside are both good mechanisms of accountability. You asked why some good churches are small and others are large. I think it has to do with how much God can trust the pastor --- if God can trust the pastor with more people, then the church will grow larger. Otherwise, it will stay small or shrink. Those are my thoughts. | ||
| trsrinheaven Junior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems, The fox is guarding the hen house. Who wathces the Apostolic overseers. Who wathches the Kenneth Copelands and the Bill Winstons who give no financial or annual reprts of audited results and where money was spent, and have NO overseers but themselves. I can name plenty of cults that call themselves churches that have thousands of members right here on factnet. Numbers mean nothing as far as God trusting one or the other. We are not limited by God as to his order to go into ALL the world and proclaim the good news. Small churches have SMALL visions. Small churches have small hearts for more souls. God'd will is that ALL be saved yet the church continues to stay SELF CENTERED and spending most of its money, efforts, and work inside the four walls of the church. They do not GO OUTSIDE THE SANCTUARY OUT WHERE THE SINNER IS and get results. To catch fish you must go where the fish are. Jesus called us "fishers of men". We won't catch every fish but we will do well if we go out where the most fish are. The converted are already in churches the unbelievers do not go to church. Jesus told the story of the Shepherd who left the flock( a metaphor of the church) and went into the world to find even the one sheep and bring it into the fold. God came for sinners. Jesus died for sinners. To whom much is forgiven much is required. The true pastors will go into their LOCAL communities and reach the lost. They will use Gods offering money to reach the lost and not on airplanes, Rolex watches, million dollar mansions and $100,000 cars. This isn't Gods will for us or our American dream. I want to live and die for bigger things than cars, mansions, watches, and airplanes. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 161 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
TRS, you are absolute correct. When money motivated people "oversee" other money motivated people, you don't get much oversight. This is simply credulity gone to seed. There is no amount of evil these men can commit that will convince their followers that they are not following after God when they pursue the almighty dollar. As the Lord said, "they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Truly, this is a wicked and perverse generation. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 156.110.24.142 |
TRS, I don't understand your analogy and metaphor concerning the fox and hen house. Of course, I am not a country boy.  But, I will try to answer some of your questions. The apostolic overseers are "watched" by OTHER apostolic overseers. Ultimately, EVERYONE is accountable to God. Specifically, Ken Copeland is a prophet and is watched over by Oral Roberts, among others. Bill Winston is probably "under" Ken Copeland, just as much as some others I could name are. They DO have overseers who watch over their ministries, even financially, although they do not publically release reports. Just because a church is small, TRS, doesn't mean its a good, strong and healthy church. Just because a church is large, on the other hand, doesn't mean its strong and healthy, either. Size really doesn't matter --- but you are right about one thing --- SOULS matter, and not only do they matter to God, but they should matter to us and the churches that we are members of. This is why my own church is changing our focus for Sunday morning services to be gearing the messages towards new believers and those who do not even know Christ. I'm not going to comment on your criticism of why some pastors and evangelists spend $$$ on material possessions. Perhaps God has instructed them they need an airplane to win souls --- some ministers are called to TRANS-LOCAL ministry, TRS, where they are called to reach the WORLD, and not just their local community. | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey JB: I have a mixed view of Copeland, whom I have personally met. Spent 25 minutes talking to him and his lovely wife after he spoke at my law school chapel. The power of God was so intense in our moot court room where he spoke, I could hardly breathe. He spoke on the small sliver of time left and what He believed God would be doing in the end times. Copeland looked like he had been on a 40 days fast. Him and Gloria were skin and bones. Anyways....I have seen him numerous times and find him very difficult to follow, with the exception of the time at school. His prophecy's listed on his web site really hit home with me. I sense the HS nudge me that this is a word from heaven. Copeland prophesied the fall of the Berlin wall to the tee. Yet he has this horrible belief that Jesus died twice for me (an EW Kenton teaching). He has actually stated that it is not enough that Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood. Oh no...Jesus also was confused about tellin the thief he'd be with him in paradise as well. Nope...Jesus went to hell and continued to pay the price for sin (after he said "it is finished" on the cross)and was smitten by demons for 3 days and spiritually died and then was "born again" and rose from the grave. Of course none of this is in the Bible but hey...who cares? It's all about revelation with these WOF guys. This is the kind of teaching I need to get away from. What's your take? | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.189.81.234 |
David, First, WOW --- how long ago did Copeland speak at Regent - ??? I would have loved to be there. Second, I don't really follow Copeland as much. Every now and then I'll see what he is doing on his program. I do listen and follow his son-in-law, George Pearsons, who is the Pastor of Eagle Mountain Church in Ft. Worth --- I mean, I'm not a member there, but I do listen to Pearsons' sermons, which are very good and practical. I don't think that Copeland teaches that Jesus died TWICE for anyone. If you're saying that Jesus spiritually died, YES --- that is true, but that is not two deaths. It is ONE death (see Romans 5) that has two aspects of it --- a physical aspect, and a spiritual aspect. Think of it like this, David. If an unbeliever dies, they die in two ways --- a natural death, and a spiritual death. Same for Jesus --- he died ONCE for all --- but His death had two aspects, a physical aspect, and a spiritual aspect. Copeland DOES say some things in this regard that I disagree with --- I do believe Jesus went to hell as part of the penalty for my sins. Thus, I do believe that Jesus BOTH physically AND spiritually died for my sins. However, I do not believe that Jesus was smitten by demons for 3 days in hell... I believe Jesus SMOTE the devil in hell, and then went to Paradise. How long that took, I don't know. But Jesus did suffer, at least briefly, in hell, for my sins, as part of the penalty. I just don't believe that to the same extent that Copeland does, and I would not characterize it as Copeland, either. | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey JB: I gonna quote Copeland, Ok? "It was a twice dead man that whipped Satan". I get his magazine. I have heard him preach this for years. I am uncertain why he wants to keep bringing up this false teaching. Over and over and over. Nobody I talk to gets his point? Why push this teaching and belief? It is not in the Bible. I have gone to ministers who know him and ask why he does this? They all say..I really don't know. EW Kenyon started this twice dead, "jesus was born again" nonsense and it was spread by my favorite teacher Kenneth Hagin. Yes JB, Jesus did die physically and yes...he was seperated from God. If you want to call this spiritual death then I am in agreement. All this was done on the cross. Not in hell. Not for 3 more days and being smitten by demons and all the rest of this mumbo jumbo Copeland comes up with. However...I love Ken. He laughs...He loves God...I believe the words he prophecy's are from God. That in itself is a very strong statement considering how hard I am on false prophets. You already know that. Copeland was on the 700 club, which is on the campus of Regent (aka CBN University). It was ah....1997 or 1998. He was awesome !! After he spoke everyone took off to class so I went up to talk to him. Before I know it, him, Gloria and I are the only ones in the room for almost a half hour while they badgered me on who I was and why I came to Regent. They just wanted to meet some of Pat Robertson's students. That is all. It had nothin to do with me. Nothing. They were the sweetest, most wonderful, full of love human beings I have ever met. It was an honor. I was privledged to meet others while at Regent. I had lunch with Jack Hayford and the Dean of Divinity. Him and Reinhard Bonke teach a missions class at Regent in May. Sometime later, I caught Benny Hinn in the hallway of the law school and made him laugh as I mimicked his "Praise God" signature saying. Him and I walked off to chapel together and I sat in the back. Half the students who came to the chapel that day did not like Benny Hinn even being on campus. They came to see and make fun of the magic man. When he left, there was not one person except me and him standing. Not one! He prophecied over divinity students who don't believe in it and they were literally piled up 2,3 and 4 persons deep on the floor. There were over 300 divinity students slain in the spirit. OUT, like a light pal. Gone!There were piles of people literally on top of people who were on top of someone else. God just came in and TKO'd the whole bunch. God flattened the entire room. I mean He came in a wrecked everyones theology. It was awesome. I later ran into Jesse Duplantis at Regent. His pilot graduated from Regent and he introduced me to his wife Kathy. I sat with him at a graduation commensement. Jesse was wearing a canary yellow jacket, black shirt and black tie in 90 degree weather. He was a stitch. Did you mention Clint Brown? Met him too. My girlfriend is the worship leader at her dads church and Clint came in for a week. Our church was under Rod Parsley and Clint was his worship leader (1992?). I sat next to him and challenged him to who could eat the most pizza. He won by a slice. There's more. My point is when I critize WOF ministers,I have been around them. Not all are bad. I still love Kenneth Hagin. Robb Thompson is a pervert. Murdock too. Fred Price is terrible. Yet, others show great promise and have been an incredible blessing. However, I think there is a parting of people like Grahm Cooke, Mike Bickle and others away from the propserity abuse. I belive in prosperity and wholeness(shaloam) but not how Creflo Dollar teaches it. No way! Read Hagin's "The Midas Touch". He rebukes the 100 fold teaching and naming your seed. David | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
However...I love Ken. ...I believe the words he prophecy's are from God. How do you make this determination? Some of Copeland's prophecies are a joke. At the end of each year he prophecies great moves of God for the next year, these things never take place. How can these things be from God and fail? After reading your post it seems like you judge people based on your personal feelings for them. Isn't this dangerous? Wouldn't it be better to judge them objectively according to scripture? I know it's possible to like someone on a personal level and overlook their faults. But a false prophet is a false prophet, even if he's a really nice guy. You say Robb Thompson and Mike Murdock are perverts. Can you clarify what you mean by this? Do you think they pervert the Word of God? Or is it something else? Do you know that Copeland has spoken at Thompson's church several times? So either Copeland does not share your opinion of Thompson or somehow he is able to overlook any "perversion". Maybe the money he gets for speaking there helps. Well, you have an interesting perspective. | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hi Marta: Good questions. Problem with a site like this is I may not clarify some things. My note to JB is a continum from the past 2 weeks and I answer some of your questions in those posts. Some are under John Bevere and others are under Kim Clement. If you read these comments you'd know I am pretty hard on false prophets (ie. Kim Clement). Whem I say I believe the words from Copeland are of God, I am referring to those posted on his web site, which I mentioned. However, I am not knowledgable on everything he has ever prophesied. He did prophecy the fall of the Berlin wall and said it would fall in 8 months. He did this in 1989 or maybe it was 88. In exactly 8 months the Berlin wall came down. On WOF ministers, which I have been in their camp some 17 years, I find them to be a mixed and often a very dangerous bunch.You better be a darn good Bible student when you get around them cuz they will lead you right in the ditch. You said "After reading your post it seems like you judge people based on your personal feelings for them. Isn't this dangerous? Wouldn't it be better to judge them objectively according to scripture? Now didn't I just give Ken a good kick in the pants for his false gospel message on the cross? It is terrible. Not even Biblical. Sweet people ? Yea...false teachers at times? Yep. Copeland has all kinds of Biblically perverted friends. Creflo Dollar, Leroy Thompson and many others who are in what I call the "Bless Me Club". What is a Biblical pervert? This is someone who has twisted the word of God to a point it is totally out of text. Nowhere is this seen more than in the false teaching of the "100 fold return" and the "naming your seed" concept. Now it's ok to read and have a different view. We all do that to an extent. There are scriptures that sincere christians differ on. But when a liar like John Avanzini (Copeland's perverted buddy) stands up and claims he has the "100 fold" anointing and if I sow my seed right now that I will receive the 100 fold return because God told him , well......go figure. The "100 fold" anointing is not in the Bible. Hey..believe in this crap? Then Creflo Dollar has a cd series instructing you to go tell your angels to get your money. That's right! Get off your dead angel butt and fetch it now in Jesus mighty name. I loose you to get my money. Geezz! What a crock. Again, this is Copeland's spiritual son, Creflo Dollar. Robb Thompson, Fred price, Mike Murdock and others are manipulators of money. It's enough to make a billy goat puke. I have been around them. Their ministry is on the same level as Robert Tilton. They will answer one day. Just stay away. Don't get me wrong. You are talkin to a guy who seeded over $100,000 in the last 2 years to the Kingdom and I do it with joy! However, I plant it in good soil where I see a harvest and the people I am involved with are accountable servants and excellent stewards of God's money. Sometimes I think I outta just be a Baptist. | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 39 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
You better be a darn good Bible student when you get around them cuz they will lead you right in the ditch. Well I agree with that 100%. Thanks for your response. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
David, Interesting quote. I just would not articulate that in the same way as Copeland did. I would say that Jesus died ONCE, but in TWO aspects (one aspect physical, and the other spiritual). I believe that is a BETTER way to articulate the view than the folksy way in which Copeland does. David, there is SOME Scripture that supports the view that Jesus went to hell. For instance, the Bible teaches that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. I believe He did this after He whipped Satan in hell. It was a preaching and a declaration of defeat (that Jesus had conquered death, hell, and the grave). I do believe that Jesus had to be regenerated, in a way, in order to rise again. I think that calling such regeneration "born again" as we call "born again" believers is CONFUSING, and conflates what the Bible teaches in this area. Actually, your view is pretty close to mine. I do believe, just like you do, that Jesus was spiritually separated from God on the Cross, and therefore Jesus spiritually died on the Cross. He then had to go hell because now Jesus had to be regenerated. This happened as soon as Jesus gained the victory over Satan in hell, and preached His message of victory to the spirits in hell's prison. I completely agree that Jesus was NOT in hell 3 days. I think as soon as Jesus went to hell, he was soon able to overcome it. That's what I think the Bible teaches, and I think you'd agree. Yeah, I don't follow the 700 Club or Pat Robertson as much. I could have applied to Regent for law school, but I did not want to go back to Virginia after 3 years of undergrad at George Mason. I'm a Midwestern kid at heart. Wow, you've met so many of God's precious saints and servants. I am impressed. The only thing I can say is that my pastor's son has a personal connection to Jerry Savelle, and I personally met Bishop TD Jakes at a book signing. To Be Continued... | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
Continued (Part 2)... Yes, David, I also mentioned Clint Brown. I really like some of his older music, from just after he left Rod Parsley's church in 1992. As you probably know, Clint Brown left and became Senior Pastor of FaithWorld in Orlando. After doing that for several years, Benny Hinn merged his church into Clint Brown's church, and MANY MANY of Hinn's parishoners left and went either to Dr. Mark Chironna's church, The Master's Touch, OR --- somewhere else. But many did not like the gospel flavor of Clint Brown, as a matter of personal preference. Did you say that Hagin rebukes the 100-fold teaching and naming your seed - ???? WOWEE!!! Please tell me more about that. | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
JB: Wow...I learn alot from you. If Copeland spoke and articulated like you, he'd stay outta trouble on the death of our Lord. I believe Jesus went to Paradise and preached to the OT saints that he was the Messiah prophesied to the Jewish nation. I could be wrong. I have no proof of this. Dake believes Jesus went to Tartus and preached to the angels who co-habitated with women in Geneisis 6:2. Interesting? Clint Browns music from 1990 to 1998 is awesome! Holy Ghost shake and roll. I never hear of him anymore. In Kenneth Hagin's book called "The Midas Touch", he addresses both the 100 fold return and naming your seed. Hagin says the 100 fold return in finances is ridiculous. He denounces the whole concept in 1 whole chapter. He also writes that to name your seed is limiting God and that it is not in the Bible and he strongly recommended not teaching this concept. I am not making this up, yet not one of his so called spiritual sons will acknowledge he wrote this. Not one! I have seen Jerry Saville. An old bump and paint guy from Texas. Like many WOF, he is another self taught preacher. His book "If Satan can steal your goods, he can steal your joy", is one of the most ridiculous books I have read. In this book Jerry claims the devil started his carburator on fire and burnt up his car. Other absurd remarks were made. I like Jerry Saville at times and I don't think he makes these kinds of immature comments anymore. I heard one tape series by him and laughed til my stomach hurt. I never hear of him anymore either. A guy from my church went to his Bible school. Ok, had a suite for the Diamondbacks tonight. They lost. | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey Marta: I agree with you on all these words for the new year by every tooth ferry prophet this side of the Mississippi. You asked "How do you make this determination? Some of Copeland's prophecies are a joke. At the end of each year he prophecies great moves of God for the next year, these things never take place. How can these things be from God and fail? I don't know off hand on ken Copeland but I admit I am sick and tired of all these vague, bland, yaba daba doo...this I will do for you ...prophesys I hear around Janurary 1st. By the end of the year just about any old thing would fit! | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.189.81.234 |
David, Yeah, I basically believe what Dake believes. That's what I was taught at my St. Louis church, Rivers of Life. However, we were not taught that because Copeland teaches it --- we were taught it because that is what the pastor thought and believed. Rivers of Life does have WOF roots, but its really more independent. Yes, Clint Brown did excellent music during the 1990s... but afterwards it just lost its luster so to speak. He disappeared for a while, but now Rod Parsley brings him back every year for Dominion Campmeeting. I'm surprised that Hagin, and thus Rhema, teach against the 100-fold doctrine and naming your seed. Because Oral Roberts is actually the founder of that doctrine. I think this is a main difference between the Oral Roberts end of the WOF movement and the Rhema-Hagin end, as well. My church is kind of a blend between the two, so you hear both. We're not officially connected with either, but my pastor's pastor is a graduate of Rhema, while our prophetic covering through Jeff Tadlock believes in the Oral Roberts thing and naming your seed. Honestly, I do believe you can sow towards a specified harvest, but the concept of "naming your seed," I do not see it in the Scriptures. As for Jerry Savelle, he has a special connection with my pastor's son. Way back Jerry was teaching in a meeting here in OKC, and he gave J.J., my pastor's son, a special Bible, because of some given circumstances, and thus therein lies the connection. The interesting thing at my church is that there are cliques that surround different WOF leaders. One clique follows Jerry Savelle, Creflo Dollar, and Jesse Duplantis. The other major group follows Andrew Wommack, basically. I tend to be more independent, and take all I can get --- chew the meat and spit the bones type. I'm not a cliquish follower of anyone but the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
The problem for me JB is I am tired of spitting all the sticks out from WOF ministers,albiet teacher, preacher, or Pastor. Since this is a John Bevere topic site, let me give you another Bevere teaching that is not Biblical. He got this from Benny. It's called "pleading the blood". I asked John exactly how that is applied and where is it in the Bible. He told me it's not in the Bible per se for the NT church but by faith he point his index finger and draws an imginary line around his home. Apparently no demon can cross John's drawn line. Johns family is now safe from demons. This is the kind of stuff that I am tired of. All the hoodini nonsense. You have to listen to Creflo like a hawk because he will manipulate OT scriptures for prosperity like no get out. Leroy Thompson the same thing. Jesse Duplantis is an exciting guy but he says terribly stupid things that have no Biblical basis whatsoever. Well anyways.....I think I am done on all these topics. I prefer our discussions like when you inform me about the Dake bible and Scofield. I have no motive to tear down ministers at all. However, I am tired of these people (not you) who defend some of the ridiculous teachings. Some of the people who post go into these "your a demon" rages because someone condemns false teaching. I don't view this as a tear down site, which I have seen advocated by other small minded folks. Actually our discussions have been very beneficial to me. Is this web site shutting down?? | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
I tend to be more independent, and take all I can get --- chew the meat and spit the bones type. If you CAN seperate the two ... bad teaching is like yeast mixed in with the dough. Remember what scripture says ... Mt 16:6 "Watch out!" Jesus warned them. "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Mt 16:12 Then at last they understood that he wasn't speaking about yeast or bread but about the false teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.189.81.234 |
David, There's actually a debate in the WOF movement now about pleading the blood. Apparently from what I hear, Andrew Wommack doesn't believe in it. I have NEVER understood the concept myself, personally, and so I don't understand it. I think its better to pray and thank God for His divine protection according to the promise of Psalm 91, amen? FactNet is shutting down in the above number of days because of lack of finances. I guess these folks have a poverty spirit or mentality - LOL!!! | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
FactNet is shutting down in the above number of days because of lack of finances. I guess these folks have a poverty spirit or mentality - LOL!!! That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. | ||
| trsrinheaven Junior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems, and everyone ... I urge everyone to give what they can to this site to help others stay out of harms way and continue the good information and open forum. In the meantime Jbkrems(with his arrogant snob atttitude that looks down on Factnet and others asking for help with money) will be giving Factnet the $12,000 they need to continue. Afterall if his Copeland and Winston idea of prosperity works then jbkrems has plenty of money to give to the site he uses so much. lol  | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Marta: Ouch! I think JB was throwing a WOF joke at me. I think the past several years I have really been scrutinizing what everyone is teaching. Since I am from the WOF camp, I basically focus on them. It just seems like the manipulation gets worse and worse by self taught ministers who have no formal doctrinal training or an understanding of Jewish history at all. The reason I attend WOF/Charasmatic churches is this is where I still find the greatest anointing of the Holy Spirit, so I have chosen to remain but dig out the false teachers and warn others (in a loving way hopefully). | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
dgate007, I got out of wof ... too much yeast in the dough. But you do what's best for you. And this is just my opinion.... but I have found a lot of the people mixed up in wof to be insensitive to those who are going through trials. Like that comment from jbkrems ... I didn't find it funny. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 156.110.24.142 |
Marta, I was trying to throw an albeit sarcastic joke at David, as he so perceived and got it! David, Yeppers, it was a joke. I was just trying to make light of a serious situation. I guess I am not as scrutinizing as you, though. TRS, Now that wasn't funny. $12,000 is nowhere near in my budget. | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
Now that wasn't funny. $12,000 is nowhere near in my budget. Actually, that's why it IS funny. BTW, I'm in agreement with trsrinheaven (when will this ever happen again?) in that I encourage everyone who uses this forum to help FactNET if they can. In addition to making a donation, I believe you can help them by purchasing something from Amazon using their affiliate link. | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey Marta: I don't know what you're going thru but I assure you both JB and I are compassionate towards those in a hard place. We are two individuals who are sharing our observations and experiences thru how we perceive the word of God. Do him and I agree on everything? Nope, but we enjoy sharing our thoughts as we walk down the path set before us in life. Many have been hurt in WOF churches by others with theri little pat answers. I have seen it and its terrible. That's why I do not like Paula White, Little Miss "Deal with it". What a stinkin attitude. Jesus never gave a reply like that. Anyways...find a place where you can get healed. When you have, you'll come back out like me and dig and find not all WOF teaching is wrong. However, if it is best for you to stay away from it, I understand. Many I know will have nothing to do with it. | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 44 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
dgate007, I have nothing against you but I have to question your opinion of jbkrems as someone who is compassionate towards those in a hard place. I don't know him personally, but I'm basing this on statements he has made in the past. Hey, maybe I'm wrong ... I really hope so. Whatever you think about FactNet, I believe their intentions are good. I think they are trying to warn people about dangerous cults and help those hurt by them. They have a financial need and have made an appeal for help from those who use this forum. From his comment I guess jbkrems thinks this is funny. Being the wof cheerleader he is, he thinks it's funny to say they have a poverty mindset. Maybe jbkrem should consider his own circumstances and question his own mindset. (I'm being intentionally vague here). Like I said before, I don't want to have anything to do with wof. And it's not because I have been hurt. IMO, the focus of wof is all wrong. The focus is on self and and what the flesh wants. You keep listening to that stuff if you want, but I have gotten to the place where I can't stand the stink. | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Marta: You gotta stop the sour grapes attitude. Grow up. I like Factnet. Why do you question? What positive and challenging aspects do you bring to the table. So far...none. | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
LOL I'm not taking the bait dgate007. You have every right to your opinion ... so do I. | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.188.210.35 |
when did this become the John Bevere board, this is the Bill Winston board. Puzzled in orlando... ctg_one  |
