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Message |
    
speakword2004
Advanced Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 785
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.210
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:02 am: | 
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If you could say just one (1) thing to every EN member what would you say? |
upcase20
Intermediate Member
Username: upcase20
Post Number: 247
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:06 am: |
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Get out, you are being mislead by people who want to get in your pockets. |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 639
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:22 am: |
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Don't idolise any human church leader. |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 640
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:22 am: |
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Don't idolise any human church leader. |
upcase20
Intermediate Member
Username: upcase20
Post Number: 251
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:29 am: |
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Also don't follow any human church leader. If they say they're annointed, forget it. |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 738
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.214.93
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
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ask the pastor how they show transparency and accountability towards the church-members... |
coppertree
Advanced Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 758
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.130.201.65
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 12:55 pm: |
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And listen to the still small voice inside you, remember the joy of your salvation.} |
miltietoast
Advanced Member
Username: miltietoast
Post Number: 767
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 24.159.19.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 3:54 pm: |
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Stop participating in EN for 30 days,look from outside in. That is not a long time for such an important decision. You will gain perspective |
flo1151
Intermediate Member
Username: flo1151
Post Number: 188
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.158.71.23
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 5:37 pm: |
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pixilated |
flo1151
Intermediate Member
Username: flo1151
Post Number: 191
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.158.71.23
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 6:19 pm: |
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pixilated. I thought I was suppose to say one word to the EN member. I think that is a funny word. May be appropriate.   |
dust
Advanced Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 530
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 8:52 pm: |
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Read, study, and gain understanding of the FULL COUNSEL of GOD, the Bible and the Holy Spirit illuminating the Word to you. Don't rely on pastors and their chosen booklets for scriptures. Read the WORD for yourself. ALL of it. |
j2theperson
Intermediate Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 333
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 9:16 pm: |
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See how you're treated when you stop paying tithes. |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 740
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:10 pm: |
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"Where there is the spirit of God, there is freedom" |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 741
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:12 pm: |
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"Where there is the spirit of God, there is freedom" |
freedom43
Member
Username: freedom43
Post Number: 89
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 129.33.119.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 1:18 pm: |
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Run! |
zadieboy
Junior Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 10:56 pm: |
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"True peace is not merely the absence of tension, it is the presence of justice."
Dr Martin Luither KIng, Jr.
See www.truthinternationalinc.} |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 333
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.190.27.183
| | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 11:14 pm: |
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I would say just because someone may walk in the power of God or even give you an accurate word from God does not necessarily mean that God endorses that ministry or the beliefs/advice of that man or woman. That can cost you a lot of years if you think that way. Your not walking out on God if you don't go along. |
zadieboy
Junior Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 35
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 10:42 am: |
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 I would say, "Dave Jemerson, the investigators will find you.
www.truthinternationalinc.com
|
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 158
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.57.89
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 5:19 pm: |
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I would tell them to read as much as they could on factnet and then make their decision as to whether to continue or not, after talking with their parents and perhaps a few other good local pastors. I believe some people will still like what EN represents and join in heartily, but many will leave because of the greed and sin in the lives of some of the leadership and the sometimes twisted doctrine. I would tell them not to look to the sincerity of the membership at large though, because like themselves they are more than likely the victims and don't know it and are sincere about God and the church and loving people. |
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 55
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 8:22 am: |
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I would tell them to attend another church for 30 days and to read the book twisted scriptures. |
speakword2004
Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 84
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 9:13 am: |
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I would say read through the Ulyankee timeline. Read through this website, especially entries circa 2005 and 6. I would say suspend your tithe and notify your pastor. See what happens.
I would also say that consider the fact that EN is a boastful, conceited, proud and exlcuvistic ministry. |
ulyankee
Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 67
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 9:23 am: |
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I second both xman3 and 84. Great suggestions!
Also check out some of these resources and see if this applies to your church/ministry experience:
Lawrence Pile - The Other Side of Discipleship
Lifton's 8 Criteria of Thought Reform
Coercive Tactics--taken from Margaret Singer's work
Here's the website of the author of Twisted Scriptures - includes a condensed Net version of the book.
BTW, even though the Amazon link above may show the Spanish edition cover, that is for the English edition of the book. |
speakword2004
Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 86
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 9:35 am: |
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Stop serving and being Martha in the kitchen and sit at Jesus' feet. See what happens! |
zadieboy
Junior Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 36
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 63.164.145.85
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 3:36 pm: |
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I would say, "The enemy came to lie, steal, and destroy. Be careful who you choose to believe. She's lying. help her take real responsibility for her actions. Lift her up not out."
See; www.truthinternationalinc.com
Oh, God just didn't design me to play professional athletics but I am on the right team. The coach says, "Quitters never win and winners never quit."
A winner.... |
jesusisawesome
Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 81
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 192.153.23.100
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 4:25 pm: |
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There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:18)
PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR!
Matt Hatter, you had mentioned somewhere about listening to a recent sermon by Phil Bonasso and commented on finding him boring, and you were wondering what the attraction was . . . well I want to share with you what the snare was for me.
I did not like the first service I attended in this ministry (Phil Bonasso preached). All the yelling in the preaching initially turned me off, and quite frankly I was freaked out by some of what I saw and heard, but what grabbed me and ensnared me for a while was the preaching of 100% commitment to Christ.
As a baby Christian, I was so head over heals in love with Jesus, and wanted to do anything at that time to please Him. This was the grabber for me . . . if someone loves Christ, why would they not want to give 100%? This, in my mind, is the snare for so many!!!
I was so sincere in my desire . . . hindsight being 20/20 vision, having the understanding now that I was sincere, yet at the same time sincerely deceived . . . “Oh foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you?” (Gal 3:1) . . . “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?” (Gal 3:3). Those scriptures sum up my walk with this ministry . . . foolishness!
Tikie, I know you and some others have posted that you have come to the place where you don’t regret what you have experienced, and that it has made you who you are today. Well I am thankful for the lessons that I have learned, and I am glad that God causes all things to work together for good, but I have come to the conclusion of late that my biggest regret in life is ever stepping foot inside of MCM/VCF/MSI/EN.
If I could go back in time, that is one decision that I would change more than any other mistake I have ever made in my entire life . . . and believe me, I have made plenty of them . . . but I consider being a part of this ministry for 7 foolish years as my biggest mistake of all. Luckily, God does redeem and can redeem, even through our major foibles, as we turn to Him in repentance.
If I have one thing to share with you current members of EN it is this: In your zeal for God, use caution. Test all teachings, no matter how charismatic or talented the leader may appear (even Satan masquerades as an angel of light), and hold fast to that which is true and good. Your salvation has nothing to do with how committed you are to Christ . . . because we all fall short. “As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.” (Romans 3:10) It is not our 100% commitment to Him that saves us, but rather His 100% commitment to us, witnessed in the suffering of Christ on the cross.
“But go and learn what this means, I will have mercy and not sacrifice, for I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Matt 9:13). If you are fearful of blowing it with God, that is the wrong foundation to be building upon. You have already blown it! We all have blown it and are all in the same boat! Your good works can’t save you . . . only the cross of Christ.
EN appears to currently still build on a foundation of works, which is wood, hay and stubble and will be burned. Good works cannot earn your forgiveness. Good works are only to be an outflow of your gratefulness for what Christ has already done! We love Him because He first loved us, not the other way around.
Ask yourselves this question . . . are you “fear” motivated in your EN works, or are your actions motivated by a sense of a profound peace, gratefulness, and love for what Christ has already done for you?
I sought the Lord and He heard me and delivered me from all of my fears (Psalm 34:4) |
coppertree
Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.166.120.88
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 8:31 pm: |
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Hi JIA,
Thank you well said.}} |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 357
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 9:54 pm: |
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but I have come to the conclusion of late that my biggest regret in life is ever stepping foot inside of MCM/VCF/MSI/EN.
I do understand and these are hard words to read. I hope someone, somewhere, will read them and it will sober them up and they will LEAVE this thing!
But personally, there will be a time when the regrets will fade, but what you can offer in your selfless love for others will only grow over the years. You are wired that way, and no amount of false burdensome religion could steal that away from you. |
ginger1
Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 84
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.178
| | Posted on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:27 am: |
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Zadieboy - I really could care less who these athletes are because this is what Paul said.
1 corinthian 1
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were INFLUENTIAL; not many were of NOBLE BIRTH}}}. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. |
ginger1
Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.178
| | Posted on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:36 am: |
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It also means people like Paul are not impressed with them either.
And when Paul is not impressed with them so is God.
And when people are impressed with celebrities in the church, then they are way off thinking that christians should behave like this.
And for church to lift up celebrities to win the world, we know very well they do not trust God. Jesus said Lift up the Son of Man so I can drew them unto me.
NOT celebrities nor athletes. Paul dealt this problem with the Corinthian church, people are being identified by their giftings or celebrities. I am of Paul, I am of Cephas....
Paul had to rebuked this church because of this behavior and thinking. |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:39 am: |
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Jesusisawesome,
You wrote,"Well I am thankful for the lessons that I have learned, and I am glad that God causes all things to work together for good, but I have come to the conclusion of late that my biggest regret in life is ever stepping foot inside of MCM/VCF/MSI/EN."
I came to the same conclusion that my biggest regret was joining Maranatha and any organization that have the power to decide who get married and who doesn't. That was the worse mistake that I ever made in my life and due to the consequences of that mistake it seem to be too late for me to recover from my involvement in those cults. |
lc_20
New member
Username: lc_20
Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.76
| | Posted on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 2:19 pm: |
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Pilgrim,
It is never too late... Anyone in an unhappy marriage aranged by maranatha/msi/en should just get a divorse and start over. What God has put together let no man separate... God not EN. I honestly believe God would support escaping from all obligations made during the days of maranatha/msi/en based on twisted scriptures and lies. Really, to continue to live under an obligation put together by a cult could be more of a sin than divorse. Don't just accept your regrets... We live in a great country where freedom is a privelege. Take advantage of the laws here and set yourself free. Over the years so many people have posted about the regrets related to marriage do to this group... It breaks my heart. Be free people... |
ginger1
Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.178
| | Posted on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:12 pm: |
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Anyone in an unhappy marriage aranged by maranatha/msi/en should just get a divorse and start over. What God has put together let no man separate... God not EN.
LC thats a good one, problem is a lot of children are going to be affected. I do know a couple who went through a divorced. The kids were ok with it. One is supportive. Simply because they hated each other.
But not all families are like that. I know another, kids were too small to realized it.
And some would rather stay together for the sake of the children.
My opinion would be, get a divorce at the right time. |
upcase20
New member
Username: upcase20
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.12.117.76
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 1:21 am: |
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A Maranatha marriage. That could have been me. I'm glad I saw the light and left when I did. . .No actually I wished I had left sooner, but they kept asking me to come back. |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 91
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:15 am: |
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Ginger you said, "My opinion would be, get a divorce at the right time."
It is an awful situation, my question is when is the right time? If they wait till the children are grown up and go to college. Then when those children want to come back home they would find that their home is gone. It would probably be also far too late for the parents to be able to remarry and be happy. It will certainly be too late for those people to be able to have children with a Christian man or woman that they truly love. If those people have my personality they would have missed out in what they wanted the most in their life. No amount of money and wealth can replace that. Read Song of Solomon 8:7.
Also what happens if only one person in the marriage is unhappy and the other one is happy. If they get divorce the unhappy person would always have to live with the guilt that it was responsible for making other one unhappy.
Dear lc_20,
Thank you for your message at least I felt that you care for people in that and similar situations. |
philiprosenthal
Junior Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:39 am: |
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Lc_20
The suggestion above that it is okay to divorce just because got married in EveryNation is sinful and heretical. Please do not mislead people like this.
Whoever influenced a persons decision to marry someone else is irrelevant. Once you are married, God has joined you together in a sacred covenant. If you break that covenant, you commit serious sin.
Remember that in the context Jesus was talking in, the majority of people had arranged marriages anyway.
I am outraged by the suggestion that divorce may be justified in this instance. If you are having a tough time in marriage, go get counselling and help, but don't divorce unless the other person breaks the covenant, for example through committing adultery. |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 140
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:51 am: |
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Ahhh,
the morality police have arrived. Thanks Philip this is from your years of successful marriage?
Philip, you regularly demonstrate a complete ignorance of the realities of life and some of the most obtuse crap I've ever heard.
Jonesee |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 165
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:05 am: |
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Philip
I am a super strong believer of marriage and that it is a holy covenant with God. I don't give divorce advice nor do I judge it.
But, you seem to be forgetting that the deep psychological and sociological influences of a religious cult in arranging marriage has a component to it that might in some states even be grounds for an anulment. Because the "intention" for the marriage is obedience to spiritual advisors/leaders who have indoctrinated false beliefs and teachings and taken an unnatural and unethical hold on a person, rendering their decision, not a decision at all, very much like the polygamy decisions in mormonism.
This HOLD that people in certain types of power positions assume has been now understood, which is why there are laws that make it illegal for a therapist to have a sex with a patient (even willling sex).
If anyone should be chastized regarding arranged marriages, it should be the "arrangers" who have defiled marriage for their own purposes in building a ministry. |
speakword2004
Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 100
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:31 am: |
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Philip
I have known a few couples who had "arranged" marriages in Maranatha before it became His People in SA. Those in ministry had to submit their details and photos to the apostolic leadership of MCM i.e. Bob Weiner under the intense shepherding practises of the day.
Courtship and Christian dating may be more biblical than secular dating, but arranged or shepherded marriages carry with them their own set of stresses and strains (especially in the modern age with access to more information, our rights and other models.) I know a couple that hardly knew each other and struggled intensely to work through their marriage despite the great and wonderful shepherding and counselling they received.Wise counsel or covenant making does not a marriage make. It takes hard work to keep a marriage healthy in the twenty-first century.
I think under shepherding their were quite a few mistakes and even though God is a miracle worker there are just some things people are not willing to endure. Neither do I think He would want any person to suffer abuse and destruction as the result of marriage.
I know of people who were in Maranatha who still have successful marriages many years later, but let me say that much blood, sweat and tears went into those marriages and none of them exist just because they feel that divorce is something that God hates. |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 141
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:51 am: |
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On the street I saw a naked child, hungry and shivering in the cold. I became angry and said to God, "Why did you permit this? Why don't you do something?"
For a while God said nothing. That night he replied, quite suddenly, "I certainly did do something. I made you." -Anthony DeMello
I don't think on the day of reckoning we'll be lauded for tongue clucking moralising as much as we will for merciful involvement with sinners and their plights. I actually don't think we'll be lauded at all for being jugemental, but condemned for it. Jesus was worshipped by adulterers, prostitutes, swindlers, and traitors, of whose company he embraced as should we.
Jonesee |
ginger1
Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.178
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:52 am: |
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Phillip,
The couple I know, who recently got a divorced has been foreseen it coming for years, the lonly reason they stayed marriage was due to EN nothing else. Once that pressure is off, they headed for divorce in less than 5 years after they left EN. They should have divorce a long, long time ago. I mean years ago. The kids saw the hatred they have for each other, even the kids were affected. The kids were supportive of these happening.
The other couple was due to adultery.
Both couple did eventually breaks covenant.
Marriage is a wonderful thing, my husband and I want to celebrate our 17th year wedding anniversary this August. We are still talking about where.
We still love each other very much like we were newly weds. After all these years, I do now understand how much Christ love His church.
But one thing though , I do support divorce only for only a good reason. God did DIVORCE Israel at one point, read the old testament. Due to sin. Study that then you will understand that divorce is not sinful and heretical. Sometimes its necessary. Jeremiah 3:8
God does not hate divorce it is the CAuse of Divorce that he hated. Malachi 2
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
It is when there is violence occurs in the family, thats what God hated. If a man beats his wife thats what God hated.
As Jesus also describe its not the divorce he dislike its the Cause of it. This time its the hard heart issue.
"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Its always the Cause of Divorce that God hated. It may not be due to Adultery, sometimes hard hearts, fell out of love with each other over the years .
So if Anybody who decided to get a divorce due to EN's arrangement , I am not going to judge them. I have seen enough of chinese arrange marriage in my time growing up and I would support it 100% if they decide to end it. |
ginger1
Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 88
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.178
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:59 am: |
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I have seen a chinese girl was drag to the catholic church to wed an old man, she was crying, they stop in the middle of the ceremony, she got scolded by the parents right then and there, then the wedding went on as if nothing has happened.
I have couple of uncles who went through an arrange marriage by my grandparents, only one worked out. The other was a disaster. But since there is no divorce in the philippines, due to legalism . They stayed married , hating each other. Making their lives miserable every single day.
whats the difference between the pagans and EN arrange marriage ? NONE. EN is not a christian ministry. Their cultic practice is a paganistic.
Christians are not supposed to arranged marriage for one another, Jesus describe it as paganistic,
For PAGANS EXCERCISE AUTHORITY OVER YOU.....
Though not all arranged end up in disaster. Some learned to love each other.
(Message edited by Ginger1 on July 16, 2007) |
ginger1
Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 89
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.178
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 10:15 am: |
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Whats the cause of Divorce in EN ? It is the arranged marriage by these pastors that God hated. Thats what God hated.
Always look at the Cause. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 358
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 11:07 am: |
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If you break that covenant, you commit serious sin.
Thank you Phillip for always reminding me that getting out from under the yoke of the Pharisees was a good thing.
Rx: Spend the next year reading the stories about Jesus associating with sinners. Something about the sick needing the doctor comes to mind. |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 11:32 am: |
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philiprosenthal,
Look at the following message kindly written by ginger,
"I have seen a chinese girl was drag to the catholic church to wed an old man, she was crying, they stop in the middle of the ceremony, she got scolded by the parents right then and there, then the wedding went on as if nothing has happened."
What would you advice this girl to do? |
philiprosenthal
Junior Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 11:37 am: |
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Dear Matt
If you are wondering, I do associate with people who have committed a variety of sins in the past including divorce, but that does not make me condone divorce except in certain very exceptional instances.
The logic used by some above is very very dangerous:
i. I decide marrying this person was a mistake
ii. I decide to blame the mistake on the church
iii. That then gives me permission to break God's holy law
RUBBISH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IDEA IS HERESY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You make a marriage covenant. You must keep it - For better or for worse. Happy or not. Children approve or not.
The New Testament only condones divorce in certain very limited, very exceptional circumstances - does not include the above.
Through human history probably the majority of marriages have been arranged by others - not just the choice of the couple. Following the logic above, then all these people with arranged marriages are entitled to divorce since they can blame their mistake of a wrong choice on someone else.
RUBBISH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Friends posting above please consider carefully what you are saying and how someone here may read what you say and use this as an excuse to break their marriage vows. Consider then on judgement day you having to give account for every careless word you have posted on the internet.
Don't you fear God. Please post retractions or clarifications if you have posted something above seemingly endorsing divorce.
This stuff is not funny. It also has the potential to seriously undermine the credibility of those posting on this board since it can be used by EN to show that the posters are posting heresy.
Thanks
Philip Rosenthal |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 1:21 pm: |
|
"NO MARRIAGE WAS PERFORMED, period"
I have been looking at the following statements posted by jbkrems about the weird marriage ceremony performed by Bickle where 20,000 kids were supposed to get married to Jesus and I finally agree with Mr krems many of this kids were submitting into that weird ceremony because they did not want to disobey the leaders and did not know what they were doing and jbkrems thought "NO MARRIAGE WAS PERFORMED. It was null and void."
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/29930.html?1184433764
jbkrems posts.
Post 133, "Rather, the ceremony was fruitless, and futile, and NO MARRIAGE WAS PERFORMED, period."
Post 134, " The only area in which we disagree, Pilgrim, is whether there was a marriage performed at all. In my former pastor's view, and in my view, the bridal canopy ceremony was NOT a valid marriage. It was NOT a marriage to another Jesus, another spirit, etc. Rather, it was NOT a valid marriage ceremony. It was null and void."
Post 135, "Bickle thinks it is a valid marriage. And its totally incorrect according to the Bible."
Post 137, "Well, Bickle and Co. think it IS a valid marriage, etc. I remember walking under the canopy, and thinking, "This is meaningless to me." I don't know what others were thinking, but I think a lot of the people there did not understand what was "supposed to" go on. There were a lot of blank faces (which makes me think others thought this was meaningless as well)."
"I did not participate in a "weird marriage ceremony." I participated in a "weird ceremony," which had no meaning. Bickle calls it a "marriage ceremony" and I disagree with him. The ceremony was null and void to me. Yes, they used a bridal canopy, but NO MARRIAGE WAS PERFORMED. It was null and void."
The following ceremony was the one that jbkrems thought that was "null and void"
http://www.intotruth.org/news/Flash-archive15.html
Quoted from the above website,
"The Call" in Kansas City: A Marriage Covenant with Jesus.
By Wendy Griffith CBN News Reporter
January 6, 2002
When I read the story of the girl in my previous message and the story of people who had been manipulated by Maranatha or other cults by coercion and mind control into a similar situation I felt that those forced marriages should be declare "null and void" if one of the parties truthfully confesses that was psychologically or otherwise coerced into that type of marriage.
Forced marriages and marriages performed under any type of psychological coercion should be illegal.
Anyway not everyone was coerced to get marriage in Maranatha. Some people were allowed to get marriage madly in love and some people where prevented from getting married and in love by the same leaders. I read here that some people were coerced into a marriage. They were different patterns hence different outcomes. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 210
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 1:23 pm: |
|
the thing that makes me think:
MCM did not FORCE people to get married, if i remember right. did not the male and the female have to give the name of the wished person to the elders for aproval?
or was there a FORCED marriage AGAINST the will of one of the two people?
just curios. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 359
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 1:25 pm: |
|
I do associate with people who have committed a variety of sins in the past including divorce
Well now, aren't you to be commended. Do you realize just how disgusting this statement sounds? Who would even want to be around you with the kind of judgemental eye peering at them is beyond me.
Phillip, I have been married for 29 years, so your pontificating on marriage is about as effective as teats on a boar hog.
Rubbish? You still didn't answer pilgrim's question. Is this marriage of God simply because they were 'married' in this horrendous manner?
Please quit placing these heavy yokes on people. |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 95
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 2:30 pm: |
|
robert_unknown,
You wrote,"the thing that makes me think:
MCM did not FORCE people to get married, if i remember right. did not the male and the female have to give the name of the wished person to the elders for aproval?
or was there a FORCED marriage AGAINST the will of one of the two people?
just curios."
No everyone submitted a name, sometimes people were told that someone had submitted their name and if the leaders felt very well about it. The other party was expected to submit the same name.
Go to Teachings/Bible/Practices and then click on Love and dating in Morning Star look at the lkbk2gofwd's testimony,Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 9:41 pm: This looked like a proper forced marriage to me. At least one of the parties was psychologically coerced into this marriage.
In the same section go to my message posted on: Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 7:33 pm: and you will see what happened if you did not submit the name of the guy that the leaders where expecting someone to submit.
Look at Tikie's testimony in his blog. It looks like the leaders wanted to marry him with a very strong minded girl that would had probably kept him properly in line because they thought that he was too nice.
Also ask john_r_jones, if he would kindly write again his valuable testimony. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 360
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 3:06 pm: |
|
Robert, I will give you an example of how some of these marriages were coerced. One young lady at Auburn (I will call her Jill) submitted a young guy's name, who she was obviously smitten with. The guy, (I'll call him Jack) was told by me to go off and pray and see if he could 'get the word' who it was. After a week or so, Jack came back and said in a voice of resignation, "it's Jill".
It wasn't that he 'had a word' that he loved Jill, it was that he had figured it out; our fellowship was small, and they had spent time together as friends.
I was too young and newly married myself and not sophisticated enough to realize that just because he 'got the word' did not mean this was to be his wife. I was just so excited that 'it all worked out, just like Bob said!'
My question to Jack should have been: "Yea, but do you LOVE her?" What happened to them, I do not know. I pray that they made it, as I would wish for any couple, but I sure as heck wouldn't condemn them like some would if they didn't make it.
If anyone is to be condemned, it should be a complicit, ignorant young pastor who knew deep inside that this stuff was wrong, but outwardly tried to convince himself that it was of God. |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 142
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 3:59 pm: |
|
Philip,
I really do hope you get free of the legalistic soup you're in. I wonder in the "sinful" people you associate with know how you charecterize them. Frankly Philip I see no ministry where you're concerned just desperation. You are so worried about EN which is a witch's brew of deception and disfunction to begin with and goes downhill from there. There are good people in EN no doubt but the credibility gap lies in your disregard for people. How can you possibly hope to reform something and not care about people.
I am divorced and remarried, just helped the kids move some more furniture while typing this stuff. God has blessed us in the twelve years we've been married. I can't put it any simpler than that. My first marriage was a "Maranatha" marriage and it was a very sad affair, something I would never wish on anyone. They did a lot of things in Jesus' day like stoning people for adultery I suppose you advocate that as well.
Jonesee |
anti_fascist
New member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 77.201.85.170
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 4:57 pm: |
|
Rosenthal, I've been biting my tongue here, and enjoying the lashing you are getting here from the other posters.
I can't but help to remind you that you didn't propose to make divorce more difficult or indeed illegal in your submission to the Constitutional Assembly of the Rep of south Africa.You did advocate the death penalty and also the barring of homosexuals from whole categories of professions.
What a pleasant hypocrit and bigot you are indeed. |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 162
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.56.133
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 7:09 pm: |
|
What a difficult issue we have here. When I read Phil's posts, I do not see much wrong with what he said. I understand how heartless it can appear when the standard of one's view of what the Word has to say on a matter is presented.
When the Bible says no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God for instance, we look at it 2 ways. If it's a preacher or some righteouss Christian person, it is seen as almost a reason to disqualify them from ministry or being a Christian. If it's a regular Joe or a troubled soul such as a homeless person, it comes off sounding uncompassionate and legalistic. What Phil is saying can sound heartless and legalistic when viewed from one angle, but it is, none-the-less scriptural.
I have to admit that my first thought in regards to one of the earlier posts was a real step taken aback by how easily divorce was recommended as an option. It is not a light thing at all and must be very carefully considered with both spiritual and natural implications considered. That doesn't even address the issue of remarriage after one chooses to divorce for what some may see as questionable reasons. Very real consequences result in these choices, many of which are not avoided by simply being our own priest before God.
Whether we are told to marry or divorce or not, it is still ultimately our own choice in almost every situation, including EN/MCM. We were not chained to the church when it comes right down to it, though the manipulative bondage is very real. I was divorced at a young age in a no fault state in the U.S., before I was a Christian, and my ex-wife remarried. I had no choice in the matter. I remarried years later, and like JRJ have been greatly blessed. This situation has caused much grief for me and my family, almost exclusively amongst Christians and the church.
There are so many complexities involved here that I have had to come to make my own peace with the Lord regarding this, and it hasn't been easy to do so in view of the viscious attacks I've endured, but I accept that many other's whom I care deeply for see things differently.
We can justify divorce for any number of reasons, and hopefully we will do so with the admonitions of scripture in mind, but in doing so we ought to have a healthy respect for scripture and a healthy dose of the fear of the Lord. I have few answers and do not even think twice about people's marital situations (I will leave it up to the Lord for now)myself, but have considered this issue much through the years and think that an admonition to be very circumspect is wise. To box every situation up as the same and blanketly discourage divorce is another matter. Each situation is unique, and there are times when it may well be the right answer.
Maybe Phil gets caught up in the legalistic tendencies with what he's involved with at times and comes off sounding heartless or uncompassionate, or maybe he is (as some suggest), but I still think he makes a valid point here that ought not be summarily dismissed by everyone else, so I chose to jump in and say my peace on his behalf, or part of what he's saying's behalf at least. Each point and story that is made is not taken lightly by me either, and like I said, I don't have easy answers and am deeply grieved by the marital problems these ministries contributed to. |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 144
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 7:33 pm: |
|
X,
I'm reading a book by theologian Jacques Elull he posits that many have sought to extrapolate philosophies and such from scripture where it is more than anything a historical document and nothing else. If we see the words and deeds of Jesus about divorce for example the historical context is that in that time it was a patriarchal society. Women were property if a man tired of a woman he dumped her penniless without support to fend for herself. Women conversely had no rights legally they could not petition for divorce. There were arranged marriages in the time of Jesus as well mostly for the sake of a business transaction the women were again chattel. The woman caught in adultery brought to Jesus was given absolution by Him before she asked for it. I would guess Jesus was writing the names of her accuser's mistresses in the sand.
For Philip to make a blanket statement that marriage is sacrosanct even in the debauched world of EN where folks are chewed-up and spat out is ludicrous and crass. Folks who've had enough done to them in the name of Christianity don't need more pain and misery heaped on them by some religious bigot. It's interesting to me that Jesus is the word made flesh, and though He quoted scripture in very definitive terms his actions betrayed a heart of compassion. The word means to suffer with, I see no compassion in Philip's words, none. An agenda yes. If you want to defend that God bless you, I find it offensive, errant, and un-Godly. I've been quiet for some months about Philip's crap-no more.
Jonesee |
lc_20
New member
Username: lc_20
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 152.163.101.14
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 7:49 pm: |
|
Phil: "The suggestion above that it is okay to divorce just because got married in EveryNation is sinful and heretical".
You aren't the first to call me a sinner. I have no regrets about my post. I hate to see someone suffer under obligation from a decision made under lies and twisted scripture. I would rather give someone an out than expect them to suffer miserably for the rest of their lives. Maybe I am a heretic... I would rather be a heretic than hard axx. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 361
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:31 pm: |
|
so I chose to jump in and say my peace on his behalf, or part of what he's saying's behalf at least
The problem is, as I see it, Xman, is that he loses all credibility when he makes statements such as he "associates with people who have committed a variety of sin". What about his own sin? Or I suppose he has none? So what 'truth' may be stated is lost on his legalistic muck that he seems only to be sinking deeper and deeper in.
Sorry, I don't see Phillip bringing any words of healing to people who have had their souls trampled by people with the same kind of religion that he seems to still be bound by.
Is one sin worse than another? Is it right for me to stand on a corner and say, "I thank God that I have been married for almost 30 years and I am not like these sinners who couldn't cut it."
But gee...they might come right back at me and tell me I am going to hell for drinking beer. I can almost assure you, Phillip has something in his life that someone, somewhere would identify as sin.
Divorce is not pretty. I would not recommend it, if there is any chance of salvaging a marriage. But it happens and it has happened within the MCM dating revelation (what a joke). What do we do now with our divorced brothers and sisters?
The answer lies in the soothing balm of the grace of God. But with Phillip's theology, what would be the point of even wanting to serve Christ if His grace wasn't greater than any of our sins?
You are right about one thing Phillip, it is not funny. Maybe if you really took the time to help someone who has been through some of these things, you would see how 'not funny' it really is for those hurting souls. |
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 76
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 5:34 am: |
|
JIA:If I could go back in time, that is one decision that I would change more than any other mistake I have ever made in my entire life . . . and believe me, I have made plenty of them . . . but I consider being a part of this ministry for 7 foolish years as my biggest mistake of all. Luckily, God does redeem and can redeem, even through our major foibles, as we turn to Him in repentance.
If I have one thing to share with you current members of EN it is this: In your zeal for God, use caution. Test all teachings, no matter how charismatic or talented the leader may appear (even Satan masquerades as an angel of light), and hold fast to that which is true and good. Your salvation has nothing to do with how committed you are to Christ . . . because we all fall short.
Tikie- Good advice and better yet our SALVATION has NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR COMMITMENT TO CHRIST BUT EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HIS COMMITMENT TO US! WE KNOW WE ARE CHRISTIANS BY OUR FRUIT_ we do not become Christians by bearing fruit or being anything.
I do appreciate my dear sister's sentiments with regards to regrets- but we are who we are because of our experience. There is cognitive dissonance no doubt- on one hand I write that this experience made me who I am- on the other hand I would not let my children anywhere near EN. |
ulyankee
Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 79
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 10:02 am: |
|
I personally could be a poster child for the opposite of the so-called "dating revelation" because my own experience before I became a Christian testified to the failure of dating, "serial monogamy," etc. at least on the surface. However, the problem wasn't with the dating culture. The problem was with me and my heart. To present a pastor-mediated solution, whether it's in the "no dating" teaching, pastor-approved courting, God's "perfect choice," "marrying Jesus," etc. is a false dichotomy (all assume that pastors/leaders are our "covering" and protection which is FALSE and CULTIC!). As Dust posted last week in relation to The Call Nashville, it's presenting "purity" instead of Jesus. It's legalism in another guise. I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts believers of sin, not merely external laws or rules.
That said, this is not a Christian bulletin board even though many of us who post here are Christians. But some are not. I'm not going to force the Gospel down anyone's throat because that would make me just as bad as what I left. This is a bulletin board devoted to those who have been in cultic groups. And the MCM no dating revelation, as well as variants that have been practiced to this day in some current and former EN churches (including my former church) is CULTIC because the will of the pastor/leader subverts the will and conscience of the member, whether its forcefully or through coercion--what Janja Lalich would call "bounded choice" where people are led to believe they freely chose something but really only chose from the limited options open to them. This has long term consequences that the pastor/leader doesn't necessarily have to live with on a day to day basis but the member. Just because some current EN leaders' marriages that were arranged in MCM appear to have worked doesn't mean that this is a right or good thing to do.
I'm not going to give detailed marriage advice on a bulletin board, especially in a situation where I/we may not know all the details. I wouldn't suggest that someone seek marriage advice here. HOWEVER, this is a good place to try to find out what the heck happened in a cultic group and get some perspective from others who have been through the same. I'm also not going to resort to platitudes. To give an example, what if serious emotional or physical abuse is taking place in a situation that I don't know about, or adultery or serious neglect, and I'm telling someone to stay in that situation because it is the right, Scriptural thing to do? What of the consequences if someone is injured or even killed? I don't know as if I could live with that on my conscience. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to live with giving someone an easy out of a marriage either. BTW, this is an area where there is not uniform agreement in the church and if for example I suggest to someone that they separate from a situation like that for their own safety or that of their children and someone in EN says, aha! she's a heretic! then I really don't care. Look at the fruit of my life and heart rather than how I adhere to the law... see what Jesus taught the Pharisees in the Gospel of Luke about being concerned with INSIDE, heart cleanliness, not ceremonial OUTER washings.
The most important thing IMHO is that those of us who left cultic groups can now exercise our FREEDOM in Christ. That doesn't justify going off and doing whatever we want according to no standard at all but if we truly have the Holy Spirit living in our hearts we should be able to search the Scripture for ourselves and be guided by Him, not merely by someone telling us what to do or not to do.
As Tik and Dust said, salvation isn't up to what we do or don't do, it's up to what He did for us... the finished work on the Cross.
(Message edited by ulyankee on July 17, 2007) |
speakword2004
Intermediate Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 102
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 10:40 am: |
|
Thank you Ulyankee for some very valid points.
"Even the marriage relationship is subordinate to the relationship of the shepherd with his disciple. Broken homes and divorces are not uncommon among those marriages where one spouse develops a stronger bond to the shepherd than to his or her mate. All these abuses exceed the parameters of discipleship intended by Jesus, and establish the babes in Christ as disciples of men rather than disciples of Christ."
-Albert James Dager at http://www.cephasministry.com/shepherding_discipleship.html
Also see |
speakword2004
Intermediate Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 103
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
|
You can not have marriages shepherded. One person reveals their secret thoughts to another man or womnen concerning their marriage. That is called spiritual infidelity. Shepherding leads to infidelity and spiritual affairs. |
ulyankee
Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 80
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 10:48 am: |
|
Speak, thanks, and I know first hand that this can happen EVEN IN MARRIAGES THAT WERE NOT ARRANGED/MEDIATED IN THE CHURCH TO BEGIN WITH. |
speakword2004
Intermediate Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 104
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:01 am: |
|
Ulyankee, yes. In your testimony specifically, but I am sure that other marriages have suffered as well when powerplays have been made between spouses by shepherds when marriages are subjected themselves to the wiles of a shepherd. |
speakword2004
Intermediate Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 105
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:09 am: |
|
The Shepherding Movement has been widely criticised. Even though EN has officially rejected eerent forms of discipleship people continue to report that there are Shepherding practises within EN still today. This varies accrding to church and also to individual leaders. Maranatha Campus Ministries (of which EN is a direct descendant) practised and taught Shepherding. It was similar to the Discipling practises of the Church of Christ (also a known cult) and Maranatha and the Church of Christ originated in Gainesville Florida around the same time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherding_Movement |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:51 am: |
|
Thanks for the reasonable posts y'all. In my second marriage we attended a Charismatic shepherding church that was supposedly light handed on the shepherding part. Cliff-notes version the folks were disappointed when our marriage lasted even though they sought to stick a wedge in and jump up and down on it to pry us apart. I've seen very little in the way of effective marriage counseling in Charismatic or Maranatha churches. In reading a great little book by Dr. Neal Clark Warren I found this truth most marriages fail because people marry the wrong person to begin with. He proposed making a list of attributes you'd like in a mate. Then meet folks and find out whether those are really what you are looking for. As I dated for the first time in my mid thirties I discovered the truth of that book. A lot of religious people put a lot of trips on people socially. Some of the best advice I ever got was from a friend who was a counsellor and it was, "Don't marry someone more screwed-up than you are."
Jonesee |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 12:06 pm: |
|
Quoted from the following website:
The Signs Of Spiritual Abuse
"In essence, these dominating shepherds teach they are the church-members' de facto lord, master, and savior, rather than Christ. They indoctrinate members to believe the spiritual leaders of the church themselves are the members' "spiritual covering" (a totally false and patently unbiblical concept), and any member who ever leaves the church will be "out from under" their "covering," be without any covering or what they call, "uncovered," and will experience terrible curses and other horrible consequences as a result. From the pulpit often come "horror stories" about what happened to such-and-so person or family, who were so spiritually bereft or rebellious as to leave the group without the blessings and approval of their "spirital authority."
http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/abuse.html
Quoted in the following website,
The Myth of Spiritual Covering
"Indeed, what the Discipleship proponents refer to as "spiritual covering" is really "spiritual control." However, even the use of the word "spiritual" in this connection requires some qualification, because the only thing "spiritual" about this unauthorized control is that it is inspired by demon-spirits of deception and error. As we shall discuss later in Chapter Nine, what the Discipleship version of "spiritual covering" really is, is nothing less than witchcraft and sorcery."
http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/covering.html |
zadieboy
Junior Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 3:03 pm: |
|
Site being built now.....
enrecovery.com |
the_west_here_i_come
New member
Username: the_west_here_i_come
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 128.186.152.147
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 6:15 pm: |
|
ulyankee i know this is off topic but what podcast was it on En tallahassee's website that discused how the pastor stated the the Lord was going to comeback and judge En on how well the christians judged the nations. I know it is posted on another thread that you or someone had mentioned about dominionism being taught. I just think this is hilarious because the last government will be the antichrist government so my question is to the pastor at EN tallahassee Are you going to produce the Antichrist? Hilarious but sad at the same time |
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 77
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 7:34 pm: |
|
ULY said it- the REAL danger as she reminds us is that the choices are bounded- they appear to the member of the sociolocial cult as free- but they are not.
God can work anything out for his purposes- and Like ULY I would hesistate in giving any marriage advice (although my wife and I are now approaching our 23rd year of marriage). The reason is that I knew nothing about being married- and truly was not seeking to be married when I met my spouse.
I attribute our 23 years only to His grace in giving me a spouse who is more than I deserve and is the main reason (God sent her to me no doubt) that I surived my first four years post MCM with my sanity somewhat intact.
Our marriage & meeting was after I left MCM
Just remember that the group norms and choices (limits imposed by the leadership) distorted our view of EVERYTHING including marriage.
I was within a gnats hair of being officially told a prophetic sister had submitted my name when I left. Had it been 6 months or even four months earlier perhaps I would have "born witness to this"??? As idiotic as the notion may seem now the answer is I might have done it. It is hard to overstate the amount of compliance that MCM regularly got from its members
At this point in MCM if one party did not "hear from God" within 6 months of the other party submitting their name and bearing witness then the elders would approach that other person.
God can work miracles and make all things right- but I have the feeling when I recall that I found out that a sister had submitted my name the day I flew the coop- well i get the same feeling I do when I almost got killed in a car wreck when visiting Matt and Allie. One more inch and I would have been a goner.
To sum it up I would be very careful about offering anything other than prayers for those having problems in a MCM or EN arranged (courting or whatever) marriage.
Tikie |
lc_20
New member
Username: lc_20
Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.11
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 9:53 pm: |
|
maranatha84 and Ulyankee,
I completely understand your points. I think the only reason that I was so bold with my advice is that I know there are millions of christians willing to pressure people to stay in a bad marriage. I know that someone who is in a bad marriage - I mean really bad - is not going to get any support from the christian community. I hate how I have seen some EN people treated. I hate seeing them take antidepressents to get through the day. I hate the list of diagnoses EN has up their sleeves to acuse someone who is unhappy in their marriage. I hate how they beat down women with the submission message. If I am the only voice willing to say to that person who is beaten down, alone and surviving on antidepressants - Jesus died for your freedom... you don't have to live like this... ok. |
zadieboy
Junior Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 46
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 63.164.145.85
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:46 pm: |
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I still remember former pastor Dave Jamerson (Indianpolis Sect)advising my now former fiance that she was ok to have divorced her husband. Apparently he had a drinking problem. I gotta tell you. I understand completely why he drank. The woman also kept her daughters from their father and lied to me about it. Of course she lied to everyone most of the time. I don't know the answer to people staying or not staying in bad marriages. I'm not God. (Darn, I can't become an EN pastor.) But here's a little story I hope we can each learn from....
I have this wonderful office manager at my business. She has a sixteen year old daughter. She hadn't lived with her husband in over five yeras as the man has been to alcohol treatment several times and never received the miracle that is recovery. She was divorcing her husband. A couple of days ago her husband left a message for his daughter on his wife's cell phone. He said, "(Daughter) I'm sorry you had to hear this. (Gunshot in background.) The wife drove to his home to find her husband had shot himself.(Boom, boom, out go the lights, FOREVER.) After telling her daughter what had happened the daughter was histerical running around her bedroom trying to call her Daddy's cell phone one more time.
So did the world not do all it could to love one another? To be the healing men and woman Christ has called us to be? Were "we" the people walking in when the world was walking out? Should his wife have stayed in a marriage riddled with substance abuse even longer? Sould the wife and the daughter be made to feel responsible for his actions?
We must love ourselves first. We can't give something we don't already have. We live in a fallen world with fallen people. All of us. God didn't send His only Son here so we could nail Him to a tree because we were all good enough. It was because we were all bad enough. We're all the zeros silly. God's the PLUS.
Every Nation is a cult. Built on deception. Wrong message. Wrong leadership. Wrong motives.
"There is no right way to do a wrong thing."
Oh, what's her name..... I too, once used people and loved things. Today I love people and use things. Thank you Jesus. The WAY, the TRUTH, the LIGHT.
enrecovery.com being built.... |
ulyankee
Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 85
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 9:53 am: |
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quote:Every Nation is a cult. Built on deception.
EN leaders, if you're reading this (and I know some of you do and even have people whose job is monitoring what I and others post on this board) I get e-mails from around the world confirming this... people's lives STILL being controlled by leadership. Including marriages. Including arranged, coerced and/or "blessed" (bounded choice) marriages, and conversely existing relationships being broken up. And people being coerced out of careers, lives, school, etc. into "full time" church service. This isn't coming from rogue individual group leaders as addressed in your "discipleship policy." I mean under top pastors in the movement. I mean YOU.
As a little reminder...
You are NOT the Holy Spirit, nor are you the arbiter or conduit of the Holy Spirit to those "submitted" to you, I don't care if you think you are an apostle, prophet, or grand poohbah over all you survey.
You are NOT people's consciences.
And you are NOT the Head of the Church.
Trying to keep people in their EN coccoons, discounting what people read and post here, keeping them entertained and distracted, doesn't change that. Keep that in mind during your Wii tournament. (not a criticism of Wii tourneys in general... we have a Wii at home and think it's great fun.)
Just saying it's not Shepherding or not like Maranatha doesn't change it.
Just saying you don't really believe in dominion theology, latter rain, new apostolic reformation, etc. doesn't change it. You can't change the truth by mere words, sorry. You aren't God.
Repentance doesn't come from just saying the magic words. It comes from the heart.
The west, I don't remember the exact date, but the sermon was from the Defining Issues in Disturbing Times series... given late last year. Ron Miller was the one who gave that particular sermon but that entire series was infused with dominion theology. I believe it included at least one visiting EN leader from Nashville. I don't think you can find it on their website though but on their iTunes page. If you still can't find it write me at ulyankee@yahoo.com. |
ulyankee
Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 86
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 10:18 am: |
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lc_20 and zadieboy, that's the reason why I posted what I did... because I would not want to give someone specific marriage/relationship advice without knowing all the particulars of a situation, particularly if what I say could have harmful or even deadly consequences... and if I do give that kind of advice, like what I described in my post, I would prefer to do so off list anyway, with people I know personally. Love is caring about PEOPLE, not placing the dots and tittles of doctrine above people like the Pharisees did. One of the characteristics of cultic, totalistic, controlling groups as defined by Robert J. Lifton is putting "doctrine over person"
quote:DOCTRINE OVER PERSON
--Every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it
--The pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience
--If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly
--The underlying assumption is that
doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth"
--The experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt
--One is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil
--When doubt arises, conflicts become intense
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ginger1
Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.178
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 10:27 am: |
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The bible said this, whatever is BORN OF THE FLESH, IS OF THE FLESH. Whatever is BORN of the Spirit is of the Spirit, YOU CAN'T MIX THEM UP.
When these EN Leaders start coercing them to drop their school, full time jobs ,who they marry. THAT IS BORN OF THE FLESH. THE Word that is given is not of God, it came from their own understanding and mind.
Its unbiblical. Its born of the Flesh.
TO TELL PEOPLE NOT TO READ WHAT IS ON FACTNET. THis is what the bible said.
NO MAN CAN LAY A FOUNDATION OTHER THAN JESUS CHRIST.
WHAT TYPE OF FOUNDATION THAT THESE EN LEADERS HAS BEEN PUTTING ON YOU THAT YOU WILL BE CORRUPTED OR DECEIVED ?
(Message edited by Ginger1 on July 18, 2007) |
zadieboy
Junior Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 48
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 1:29 am: |
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Spinning, my head is spinning, I get soooooooooooooooooo
confused with all this doctrinal stuff. What the world needs now is love sweet love.
The unaimed arrow never misses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I just want to rest in the real Jesus. He's my homeboy! |
jayhernandez
Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 69
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.246
| | Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 5:32 am: |
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Hey all! I'm working hard with classes these days. It's been at least a week or so since I've been here- I can't remember.
I know the topic has taken shape but I wanted to post something to the thread title:
I would recommend an understanding that there is a good church down the road. I would tell them the greatest gift on can give, from one Christian to another, is telling them that there are other good thriving churches out there. This can be said from one within EN as well, about another outside the En fellowship/sovereignty.
I have been asked this question before and think it's the biggest way of helping someone realize how lage the body of Christ really is.
I was just speaking to lovely couple who is beginning to feel obligated to stay where they are because they have undoubtedly been helped in many ways by the church and pastor. Their privacy during those times of trouble didn't matter as much and so the where very transparent. Now that they have become stronger, and with a sense of feeling equipped, they no longer appreciate the constant prying in their once open lives. It's as if the problems are being resurfaced or remembered by a few that still see this couple as weak. They don't understand it now- it seems- but if they stay and/or don't see it for what it is then they'll surely always feel obligated. Essentially they'll play into the role they prescribe for them. I simply told them to stay and serve, and if they are pushed aside from serving then they'll know what to do. I also told them as I said above that 'there are other good churches' out there. They found that extraordinary.
Matt: that story of Jack and Jill...well last I knew as recently as 3 years ago En was doing this in Cali. I only say this cause for some of of you here it may feel like many years ago. Some will call these histories as irrelevant, but they really aren't.
I may have been able to do the research on the EN past and could have come to the same conclusion after a few interviews; but chances are I would have just left EN and found a new church- no biggy! Instead I knew someone I loved deeply who was deeply devoted in a naive and innocent way (even though his actions weren't) and I had to stay to find out more. Thank God I did.
Gotta go- it's 430 and I'm done studying for the night and need some sleep before my 9am class. a couple hours will do. I took a nap earlier so I'll be fine. Semper Fi |
zadieboy
Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 53
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 12:45 am: |
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 I got some really good news from an attorney friend of mine today. I trusted God. I did what I believe He directed in my life. See: truthinternationalinc. Now, I will soon have a law firm to represent me. I know I'm not alone in being harmed as a direct result of my being affiliated with Every Nation. I know how protected I was by a living God.S, how will each of our lives count, really count to affect eternity, not some leader living in a mansion with the follower's money, talking ab out saving the poor. Reminds me of John Edward's $ 800.00 haircut and his mission to end poverty. I think I'll trust God, clean my own house, and help others. God bless..... |
jesusisawesome
Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 85
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.104
| | Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 1:54 pm: |
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but I have come to the conclusion of late that my biggest regret in life is ever stepping foot inside of MCM/VCF/MSI/EN.
Matt: I do understand and these are hard words to read. I hope someone, somewhere, will read them and it will sober them up and they will LEAVE this thing! But personally, there will be a time when the regrets will fade . . .
JIA: Thanks for your kind words Matt, but it has been 14-15 years since I have been out, and actually the regret has only solidified over time as greater clarity has come. I am thankful for the learned lessons from it all, but it will remain my biggest regret until the day I meet Jesus face to face (well, HOPEFULLY my biggest regret, LOL . . . my future is still as yet unwritten . . . ).
For some people there is less of an impact on their lives, for others there is more of an impact, each situation being so individual. However, the longer that a person has been involved, I think, usually the greater the impact in a variety of areas.
God is very good to work redemptively, and I am so thankful that He definitely has worked good from it . . . but if I could take a trip back in time and had only one decision in my life that I would change, it would be my involvement with this ministry. |
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 11:44 am: |
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JIA:God is very good to work redemptively, and I am so thankful that He definitely has worked good from it . . . but if I could take a trip back in time and had only one decision in my life that I would change, it would be my involvement with this ministry.
Tikie: Well put that God works to Redeem the sins of man. It is hard to understand- as you seem to say JIA.
I liken, repeating myself as I have now turned 48!, my experience in MCM to my fathers Korean War shrapnel wounds and scars (at 79 years old he still has metal shards in his shoulder).
On most days he does not even notice the scar or think about it. But let the barmoter drop or the temperature change 10 degrees in an afternoon and his shoulder starts aching and his thoughts go back to the men of the 8th Combat Engineers, 3Rd Platoon of Company A that he accompanied across the 38th Parallel into enemy territory. I have read about it (now that I am older) but exactly what happened he has never said and I will not ask. But when his shoulder aches he gets a far off look- seeing and remembering things...but other than that his life is his life...but on those days he is somewhere else remembering things that took place 50 years ago...my memories are radically different and don't involve physical death- but sometimes my own wounds hurt and I think back to MCM... |
osakadan
Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 62
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 218.130.221.129
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 5:30 am: |
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...my memories are radically different and don't involve physical death- but sometimes my own wounds hurt and I think back to MCM...
Thank you for putting it so eloquently in your post '84.
Though I get that hurt feeling rarely (can't remember the last time) it does surface every few years - whether it be hurt, guilt, shame. Don't know what triggers it but it happens and I always feel bad that I haven't just gotten over it.
The war wounds of life and a warped ministry. In some ways I am happy it all happened - it made me who I am today andif I have to say so myself, except for being a heathen, I'm not such a bad fellow.
Maybe we just have to accept that those old aches and pains will act up occassionally.
Thakns again '84 - your post really spoke to me. |
zadieboy
Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 77
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 2:34 am: |
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 I would say, "THANK GOD I DON"T WORSHIP AT AN EVERY NATION CULT!" |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.42
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 8:41 am: |
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jesusisawesome,
You wrote, "I have come to the conclusion of late that my biggest regret in life is ever stepping foot inside of MCM."
I had come to the same conclusion, I was a complete loser in Maranatha although some people did very well out of this cult. For example Nick Pappis got to travel to many countries around the world first class at the expense of other people and I also assume that he was allowed to get married madly in love.
In contrast to people like him I was a complete loser. I gave up practising gymnastics for the cult and lost my skills because the cult told me to do so. I stopped studying as well while I was in the cult. I was not allowed to get married to the man that I loved.
I gave all my time to the cult and I was just working to make enough money to keep me alive.
The cult made me lose interest in anything else that was not cult activities, I lose interest in studying, hobbies, working etc.
When I left I was like in the book of JOB IN THE BIBLE. I lost everything that was precious to me for the second time in my life.
JOB lost everything once. I lost everything 3 times. The third time was when I left YWAM.
The Dating Revelation was hell because you do not submit a name till you are sure that you want to married to the guy and while the leaders pray your feeling built up a lot.
When the leaders do not allow you to get married and when the man that was flirting with you for some time starts flirting with someone else without an explanation and by surprise it felt to me like as if my husband was killed the day before the wedding it was so awful and devastating. I did not have a family so I so that I was going mad with pain with no one to understand. I could not grieve in front of Maranatha because it made matters worse. I had to grieve completely alone. I wished so much that I could have read this notice board on factnet in 1982. I wish that I never set foot in that place or any other organisation where the leaders are allowed to play God with other people'relationships. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 258
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:17 pm: |
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i would say: "if you have a strong longing for pain, become a member of an EN church..."
is EN something for masochists? is it designed for people who like it to be kicked in the butt (as reward for serving many, many years volunteerly and for sacrificing thousands of hours and thousands of Euros/ Dollars for the group...)
i would say: everyone with a sound mind STAY AWAY or they flate you alive! |
fussychristianone
New member
Username: fussychristianone
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 5:56 pm: |
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PHIL,
Are you the artist who did the paintings at HP?
Thanks for the postings. Your input is of great value to me. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 391
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 6:34 pm: |
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When the leaders do not allow you to get married and when the man that was flirting with you for some time starts flirting with someone else without an explanation and by surprise it felt to me like as if my husband was killed the day before the wedding it was so awful and devastating.
Just a thought Pilgrim...did it ever occur to you that a man who would flirt with you and then turn around and flirt with another woman so quickly may have been a skunk of a husband? And you would have been tied to MCM for Lord knows how long? Not worth another minute of your time, in my opinion. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 102
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.42
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 7:25 pm: |
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matt_hatter,
Look at my message, posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 7:33 pm: In the following link.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/9987.html?1132034196
It seems to me that some men in Argentina they submitted a name and if the leaders did not approved after a while they got fed up with flirting with a girl without being allowed to get married and they just started flirting with someone else till they were allowed to get married with a girl or till they got married in rebellion against the leaders wishes. In Maranatha you could flirt discretely but you could not have a romantic relationship where you were allowed to express your real feelings to the person that you loved. I think that women were more willing to wait longer for this but most men could not wait so long in my opinion, although they were some exceptions to this rule. In most cases where the women who got hurt more deeply in my opinion. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 392
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 9:17 pm: |
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they got fed up with flirting with a girl without being allowed to get married and they just started flirting with someone else till they were allowed to get married with a girl or till they got married in rebellion against the leaders wishes
I ask you again, why would you want a husband under these rotten circumstances? Can't you see that God may have protected you? You may still be involved in this dangerous cult if you had married this man. Maybe God's hand prevented you from marriage back then.
Just something to think about, I am not saying this is the gospel truth, but maybe something to ponder... |
zadieboy
Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 79
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 1:42 am: |
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I hope you're all doing well this evening. I attended a REAL church today. Where God is really worshipped, not just the professional athlete in attendence. Two praise and worship leaders, long time loving members of the church, went on a motorcycle ride on a highway along the river on a nice day. Yesterday. In a freak accident, a tree fell in front of them. The husband in in intensive care and the wife has passed away. Three children too. My church family is hurting today. God was present in our worship.
So flirting hey? I once attended an Every Nation Cult, (Indianapolis) I too, lost much. Don't flirt with EN. Be grateful for your "right now's." Use them to count for eternity.
EN is a destructive cult where easily led people who need the approval of others can and do flourish. A place where those who are impressed with wealth, charismatic leaders and deception and misled. Flirt with yourself. You're probably really cool. We can't give something we don't already have. If you have lost much, remember, "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." Love somebody, forgive much, let your light shine. I am very grateful for FACTnet. There is healing here.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Ghandi
I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.
Ghandi
I think Ghandi also visited an Every Nation Cult |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 103
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.42
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:12 am: |
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matt_hatter,
You said,"I ask you again, why would you want a husband under these rotten circumstances?"
Also, if the leaders did not like you I doubt it that you would be allowed to get married to a nice person.
The leaders could also poison the guy's mind by saying that was not God's will to married you and by saying negative things. For example they could say that you have problem with authority because you dare to question one of their false teachings.
If you defended against false accusations they would accuse you of being stubborn, rebellious, proud and refusing to repent.
That is why my deepest regret is to had joined MCM and any organization where the leaders had the power to control even who you get married to and play God with other peoples relationships.
In many other churches things would had been different.
Zadieboy,
You wrote, "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ. Ghandi"
It looks like Ghandi also visited some pharisees.
When I left Maranatha I was not deprogrammed from their false spiritual covering teaching so I tried to join places with the same false doctrines but without the abuse. So I went from one latter rain cult to another. I did not understand that the false doctrines caused the abuse till 2004. |
jesusisawesome
Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.105
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:37 pm: |
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Pilgrim, you are jewel in the sight of the Lord, and deserving of so much. I have to say that in my personal opinion, any guy that would switch so quickly to flirting with another woman really didn't deserve to have you. It is unfortunate when leadership interferes into lives where they shouldn't, but perhaps God really did spare you from further devastation down the road.
A couple of years after leaving this ministry, and elderly gentleman ministered to me (not knowing any of the details about my situation) about how the Lord had allowed great hurt into my life as a catalyst for change to get me out of a situation I was in, in order to spare me from further damage and even greater hurt down the road. He mentioned that there were even more serious things that would have occurred in my life, if I had remained in the relationships that I was in, and that it wasn't the Lord's will that those relationships continue, that He wanted to spare me from further hurt and abuse.
I really felt the Holy Spirit speak to my heart as he ministered all of this, and it bore witness inside of me. This same gentleman talked to me about how pain is our friend, and God designed pain to alert us to something being wrong (same as with our physical body). Whatever it is that is wrong and is causing the pain is not necessarily in us . . . it could be in us, but it also could be in the situation we are in, or the people we are around . . . but that this pain we are experiencing is actually meant to be our friend, and is there not only to warn us of something not being right, but it is there to also drive us to the Lord to seek Him for the answers, and the correction and solution to what is causing the pain.
I had never thought of pain in this light, until he shared this with me . . . and it was a real eye-opener for me to think of and consider pain in this light, as a very good thing, even though it is not fun to go through. Of course on the flip side, the demonic desires to use pain as a negative in our life, to do even greater damage and to keep us in a place of wounding, but that is not the heart of the Lord. His heart is always for healing and restoration.
Sometimes we really don't know what God is sparing us from and delivering us from, when He allows the pain of broken relationships, but I believe that He always sees and has the end result in mind, and has our best at heart, when He allows these circumstances. I believe it is this way with you and your situation. You were obviously very sincere in your heart and felt something for this man, but perhaps the wounding would have been so much deeper had you actually ended up in a marriage with him. Perhaps the Lord saw this down the road, and allowed the pain of your situation to spare you from further damage . . . I don't know, but these are just some thoughts of my own. You are a wonderful woman deserving of so much, and if this man wasn't interested in fighting for you, but rather switched so quickly to flirting with another, then I do believe he really isn't worth any further consideration, and is definitely not worthy of you.
A part of me will always be with this ministry, and will always love these people. Regardless of that part of my heart that really does still care and love, I am eternally grateful to the Lord for sparing me further and opening my eyes when He did, and taking me down a new path . . . as painful as the breaking away was. He did use all of that pain for good. I do believe that He will continue to work this redemptively in your life, Pilgrim. He does see the full picture that you and I can't see, and His heart for you is for good, for healing, and for restoration. I believe this with all of my heart, and that is my prayer and desire for you. You are truly beloved of Him, and precious in His sight. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 106
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.42
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 4:41 am: |
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jesusisawesome,
Thank you for your kind message, perhaps I would like to explain that the main point that I wanted to made with my post was that my deepest regret is to had joined MCM and any organization where the leaders had the power to control even who you get married to and play God with other peoples relationships.
You said,"but that this pain we are experiencing is actually meant to be our friend, and is there not only to warn us of something not being right, but it is there to also drive us to the Lord to seek Him for the answers, and the correction and solution to what is causing the pain."
I never thought about pain in this way but it is true pain warns us that something is not right so I pray that God will help us to find a solution to the cause of the pain. I always know exactly what is causing pain in my life but sometimes it is not easy to find a solution.
For example when I was in Maranatha under the effects of brainwashing and mind control it was not easy to get out because they made me believe that to leave Maranatha was equal to leaving God and all God's plans for my life. Also I was afraid that something very bad would happen if I left and I did not fully obey the leaders.
I am glad that the leaders ask me to leave because I wanted to preach the gospel to everyone and not just to students because I could not leave otherwise although I wanted to leave (See the History of Maranatha in Argentina) in the history section of this board.
Blessings,
Pilgrim |
jesusisawesome
Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.105
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 12:37 pm: |
|
Hi Pilgrim, I "rabbit trailed" with my thoughts and went in a different direction from your original point, but I want you to know that I do understand your original point, and I have read your story. Some of the comments above triggered some memories of my own exodus and what had helped me to process and understand the experience more, and I was hoping to be an encouragement to you, but I did rabbit trail away from your original point, which I am an expert at doing, LOL. I could take lessons from Uly on keeping with the main point. So please forgive me if I did come across as other than encouraging.
One of the comments that this elderly gentleman made to me was that God understood my pain and didn't condemn me, and that there was a purpose in the pain. I felt so helpless in the midst of my pain back then. I didn't understand it, or why I was going through it. I was walking with these open wounds, and didn't feel like the overcoming Chrsitian that I had heard preached over and over that we are called to be. I didn't understand why I couldn't just pick up the pieces and move on more easily. So I struggled with the pain and in some respects condemned myself for feeling the brokeness and not being able to just pick myself right back up and keep walking. But God didn't condemn me for the pain, but rather understood it . . . and I was a work in progress, as I still am today. I do believe that out of your own brokeness God is going to bring much life and good fruit.
Just some other random thoughts here. Maranatha did have a habit of categorizing people out into different ranks of Christianity, with favoritism shown to those considered as sharps and having it together, while others were deemed less spiritual and not as together, especially if they didn't had the "appearance" of overcoming, and had any type of wounds or issues that they were dealing with. If you towed the line and looked and acted like the overcomer, then you were definitely considered as more spiritual. I don't buy any of this at all anymore. I've come to the conclusion that happiness and sorrow are not necessarily indications of how spiritual we are or aren't. There is too much that goes into play in each person's individual life, and Christianity isn't like microwave popcorn that you throw in the oven and in a couple of minutes out you come, perfect. It's more of a lifetime process of God patiently working with us to refine. He is so much more patient with us that we are with ourselves or with others, I think. But the ranking out of people and favoritism is wrong.
You were worthy of much higher esteem than what you were given, Pilgrim. Worthy of being treated as the jewel of the Lord that you really are. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 110
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 172.189.187.51
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 2:35 pm: |
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Jesusisawesone,
Thank you. You are always very kind.
The people who help me the most in my life were people who were going through or went trough sorrow and difficult circumstances.
I never got any help from people who gave the appearance to be strong christians, spiritual and happy.
Job in the bible went trough pain and sorrow but he was perfect in God's eyes. Job did not have to wear a mask and hide his brokeness and pain to be perfect in God eyes.
I agree with you that happiness and sorrow are not necessarily indications of how spiritual we are or aren't. |
zadieboy
Member
Username: zadieboy
Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 74.134.216.5
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 11:25 pm: |
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Here's what I think I'm learning.....
The alleged Chr------- who must tell others how saved they are; THOSE ARE THE ONES TO RUN from...... If people are great believers I will see it in their walk. Save the TALK......
EN is a destructive CULT......} |
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