| Author | Message | ||
     missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1111 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.95 |
If one has integrity, nothing else matters. If one doesn't have integrity, nothing else matters. --Alan Simpson I've often said that before we begin to talk about being good Christians, we ought to talk first about being good human beings. The quotation above (by no less than a politician) recognizes the world's standard that a man should stand behind his word, even if by observation this is typically not the case. Therefore, we have contracts, oaths and other forms of agreement to ensure that a person will be forced to honor their spoken word. The underlying premise is without the contract the person will not honor their word. While holding that thought a moment, we turn our attention to the modern-day Christian practice of making "covenant-relationship" with each other. The basic ideas presented in the theology and practice of making covenant are described very well in an article by Dr. Roger Sapp and are as follows[i]: Essential relationships are established between Christian believers by making covenants. These covenants are similar to the permanent and lasting commitment expected in the covenant of marriage. These covenants have expectations on each believer involved in them also similar to marriage. These covenants often involve a less mature believer or a group of less mature leaders covenanting with a more mature leader for purposes of spiritual growth, guidance and protection. Often, this relationship is referred to as "covering". Often, the more mature leader expects that the less mature believer will submit, obey his instructions and support him financially by ongoing giving. These covenants insure accountability and the maturing of the individual and local church and other good fruit. Breaking of these covenants is a serious matter before God. I would add a couple of things to Dr. Sapp's summary. First, such "covenants" are often nebulous and do not reflect the nature of a true covenant, where terms and conditions are explicitly stated and agreed to by both parties. Rather, people are told over time that they are "in covenant relationship", or they attend "covenant groups", or they are in "covenant with the elders". The only clear condition that is generally understood among the congregation is this: to leave the church without the elders permission is to "break covenant", making one a "covenant-breaker". It is often compared to the sin committed by an unfaithful partner in a marriage relationship; indeed, from the pulpit the marriage covenant is the most common illustration to define the covenant among church members. The spiritual consequences of such a sin are often harped upon, and the guilty parties shunned by the faithful, as a warning to the remaining flock. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1112 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.95 |
A second thing I would add is that these covenants are restricted to members of a local congregation or a particular church movement and exclude the Body of Christ in general. So the practical effect of such covenants is to create the image that there are two levels of relationship in the Church: the covenant relationships that exist inside "our" church, and relationships with those outside. Here again, no attempt is made to explain in detail the differences or provide biblical support. The only thing that matters is that the concept of being in covenant is branded in people's minds as being "inside" instead of "outside"; one who is a "covenant keeper" instead of a "divorcee"; an accepted, rather than a rejected, church member. What Does The Bible Say About Covenants? God has a lot of things to say in His word regarding covenants. Our very relationship with God is based on a covenant-the Covenant of Grace. Concerning relationships among believers, however, there is not one reference in the New Testament that encourages us to make covenant. As Dr. Sapp wisely points out: When a complete twenty-seven book search of the New Testament is done, there is not found a single example of Christian believers making covenant with each other. Of course, we are not including references to marriage in our search. Marriage is thoroughly validated by the New Testament. The vast majority of the thirty-seven direct references to covenant in the New Testament are divided between references to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. The few remaining general references to covenant are being used by New Testament writers to explain the nature of the New Covenant. There are absolutely no specific examples of making covenant between Christian believers, leaders or anyone found in the New Testament[ii] . If making covenant with each other were an important aspect of Christian life, then we would expect the New Testament to teach it. However, the New Testament when examined carefully on this subject, it actually teaches against this practice in several places. To make covenant with another believer requires adopting an Old Testament practice that is not validated by the New Testament at all. Not only does this void of examples and encouragement to covenant exist but also Christ Himself warns us not to make a covenant-like commitment. The reason that this void exists in the New Testament is so extremely simple that it is often overlooked: Christian believers are already in covenant with each other through the work of Jesus Christ. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.95 |
Making covenant exclusively with a single believer or a group of believers fails to recognize or ignores that we are already in covenant with all believers. We are already in covenant with one another by virtue of what Jesus Christ has done at Calvary. The New Testament describes this as the New Covenant. Making another more limited covenant conflicts with and minimizes the importance of this Gospel truth. We enter the New Covenant automatically when we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. The writer of Hebrews indicates this very clearly. …And so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. …Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:22, 25 Jesus Christ is the guarantee of the better covenant, the New Covenant, for those who draw near to God through Him. Believers become partakers of the New Covenant by accepting the atoning sacrifice of Christ. His redemptive sacrifice at the cross has forever provided this blessed covenant with God for them. We are not required to do something with another believer to be in covenant. We are already in covenant through Christ. Believers demonstrate our covenant with Christ and each other each and every time we take Communion, the Lord's Supper. Dr. Sapp made reference to the New Testament advising against the practice of making covenants. One of the key passages being referenced here was from no other than Jesus Christ Himself, where He said: Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS (oaths), BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS (oaths) TO THE LORD.' "But I say to you, make no oath (swear) at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; and anything beyond these is of evil. --Matthew 5:33-37 Remember what was stated at the beginning? The world's expectation, and Jesus' commandment to us, is for our "Yes" to mean yes and our "No", no. This is especially true of our relationship as believers made possible by the sacrifice of our Lord. How can we possibly make more meaningful through our own little covenant the relationships purchased at Calvary? I believe this represents an insult to the Spirit of Grace. In the above passage, Jesus made a prohibition against the taking of vows and oaths, which is repeated by James[iii] . But what does oaths and vows have to do with covenant? Vows, oaths, swearing or promises before God, are always part of any formal covenant-making. If a believer is forbidden to swear, vow or make an oath, then he or she is forbidden to enter a covenant with another believer outside of marriage. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 244 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.87 |
COVENANT-MAKING Continued... (Doug Dean March 2001) A simple statement is all that God requires. If anyone requires something greater, then they are requiring something that Christ has forbidden. They are failing to account for the potential situation that God might lead us in a different way or to different associations in the future. We should be free in Christ to follow in the direction the Shepard leads. To fail to do so because we are bound by a covenant is to miss out on the will of God for our lives. Covenants Close Us In The practice of making covenant is akin to making a foolish vow. It opens the door for guilt and fear as motivation to the believer, and produces a "formula-based" mode of Christian living... In egregious cases, they might even be told that failure to meet covenant conditions brings a curse. Either way, the person is motivated to follow the programmed instructions rather than seeking God for individual guidance and strength in their daily living. This removes God from the equation as the one who should guide believers in all matters, financially, physically and spiritually. The commitment of covenant to a few also generally comes along with the theology of covering. What happens when a covering authority is in conflict with Scripture? What happens to a submitting believer who cannot resolve what he believes that God is saying with what the covering authority is saying? A covenant may mean that the conflict cannot be resolved without a serious covenant-breaking. Covenant-breaking would not be an issue if there were normal relationships of respect between believers honoring the New Covenant. Every believer, especially the elders who know scripture, would have to acknowledge that Christ's authority over a believer must take priority over any other authority arrangement. Again, the threat of covenant-breaking can be used to steer the believer in ways that conflict with their conscience. (Message edited by foreverhis on August 25, 2006) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1114 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.48 |
Thanks for helping out...couldn't get this computer to work right... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1115 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.48 |
Thanks for helping out...couldn't get this computer to work right... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1116 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.141.48 |
Thanks for helping out...couldn't get this computer to work right... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1117 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.21 |
sorry I have had this computer worked on a bunch of times...seems to get worse...even though I just click once it keeps reposting some of the time but not always.. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 435 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
COVENANT-MAKING by Doug Dean Continued In my own experience I have found this to be very damaging. There is a special trust deep within the human spirit that is reserved for God alone. It is our very precious treasure, this total trust. No man deserves total blind trust---only God, who alone is infinite, infallible and perfect in his love for us. When we covenant with a leader in a way that requires our total unconditional trust, we become idolaters. When we sacrifice our conscience for the sake of pleasing man, we give away a little more of this trust to a master, one other than God. Possess this trust, and you possess the individual. I have witnessed a person's whole identity become wrapped around a leader or movement through this bleeding of the soul. Some by grace eventually wake up and wholly place their trust back in Christ where it belongs. They are the stronger having survived the experience. Many others, sadly, will not release the sting of bitterness that came upon recognizing their great error, and use the experience as an excuse to return to the world. We have relationship with each other through the atoning work of Christ. Christ is the covenant-maker and He controls relationships between believers. Christ may move us from one situation to another. Therefore, our covenant commitment to Christ is unconditional and requires complete obedience but our relationship to others is conditional and subordinate to our relationship to Christ. Making a covenant with a human being improperly restricts our God-given freedom. It can place mental and physical barriers on the freedom of association with all believers that God wishes us to have. It is also sometimes necessary to leave a church due to serious sin, abuse or false doctrine of another believer or a leader. We must have this liberty of conscience to deal with such unfortunate events. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1662 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.102.41 |
I agree... | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 436 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
If You Have Made Covenant… Christ said we are to let our "Yes" be yes, and our "No", no, and anything beyond this is of the evil one. An improper covenant, i.e., one not authorized by scripture that restricts our freedom to serve Christ, is a sin matter. The Old Testament provides insight as to how to deal with the sin of foolishly making a commitment that must later be broken: If a person thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil-in any matter one might carelessly swear about-even though he is unaware of it, in any case he will be guilty. He must confess in the way he has sinned, and as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering, and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin. ---Leviticus 5:4-6 Of course, we are not under the Old Covenant but the New Covenant. Therefore, as it states in 1st John, if we confess our sin the Great High Priest is faithful and just, and will forgive us our sin and purify us from all unrighteousness. This is what is required to set in right order your vertical relationship with God. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 437 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
However, getting out of a covenant is not as simple when it comes to the horizontal relationships, those you have covenanted with. Coming out of this spiritual enclosure will often invite accusations from the enemy. [The enemy may use all kinds of methods to do this. He may use people or drilled statments remembered from the group.] Often the believer's conscience will register sin, faithlessness and disloyalty. This is normal for anyone coming out of a committed relationship. However, it is also very difficult, especially where a person's positive self-image as a Christian has been linked to their closeness in the relationships and their good standing within the organization. It may be useful to remind oneself in the midst of likely rejection what Jesus said concerning our love for Him versus human beings. He said in comparison to our love for Him, our relationships toward mother, father and others seems almost like hate. In other words, there is really no comparison. Our relationship with Him is supremely important. A covenant that tends to bind ones heart and soul more horizontally than vertically has got to go! End of quote | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 832 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, Very strange. Does this Doug Dean stuff actually make sense to you ? "Making a covenant with a human being improperly restricts our God-given freedom." Surely, all coveant is a restriction on human sovereignty, independence, 'freedom'. And this is the exact same argument used against the marriage covenant daily. That it restricts ones 'freedom'. The writer is making arbitrary and self-serving distinctions. And isn't it clearly true that often.. 'the believer's conscience will register sin, faithlessness and disloyalty' - simply because the desire to sin is often the base for the desire to break Godly covenant. And how can Ruth's beautiful and powerful and life-changing covenant in the Bible be ignored in the articles above ? Was it not with the people of Israel as well as the God of Israel ? Thereby refuting the prime contention. These were inseparable in her life. Every time that is discussed here from scripture the oppos never acknowledge the simple truth and then change the topic. They falsely claim that the covenant of Ruth was only with God with no human fellowship and community and Israel-national component. And can you find out what Doug Dean actually supports. Only vague allusions to the emergent church movement, and is that all ? The same type of dubious connections as Watchman Fellowship has with Ken Blanchard and Rick Warren. Not surprising then that they are so opposed to the sanctity and holiness of Christian covenant. http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/11/emergent_church_3.html Emergent Church: The Emerging Cult "the Emergent Church advocates and encourages very dangerous forms of pagan worship practices such as – “labyrinths, icons, incense, chanting, candles, centering, [yoga] and contemplative prayer... Without contemplative spirituality, the emerging church would be nothing more than couches and candles.”" http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/researchtopics.htm#emergingdatabase Emerging Church Research - Tilden Edwards http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?ArticleID=1392 Emergent Church Openly Accepts Homosexual “Christians” - Ken Silva - Apprising Ministries The articles by Ingrid Schlueter (who had the SliceofLaodecia blog for awhile) are also very helpful. Caveat emptor. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on January 07, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1665 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.20.154 |
The Covenant that Ruth made was not the same type covenant that HH makes or other cults make...Neither id it have the same meaning...to try to make that covenant even resemble HH covenant is deceit on your part... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 833 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, As I have pointed out Alvear and the oppos here have totally misrepresented the covenant of Ruth repeatedly and deliberately. Making flat out false statements refuted simply by reading the chapter. 'If one has integrity, nothing else matters.' Actually that is not entirely true unless one has a very expansive definition of integrity. 'If one doesn't have integrity, nothing else matters.' Amen. Integrity first. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on January 07, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1667 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.20.154 |
I have not misrepresented Ruth's covenant and it has nothing to do with the cult covenant. I know a lot more about covenants than you think. My grandfather was a Mason my grandmother Eastern Star, my cousin a Mason... My daughter in laws father a witch doctor... My missionary mon has HH covenant... My best friend (not in church) is a Jehovah's Witnesses.. I am not saying all covenants are evil but one that destroys the person if they break it is evil... To make a covenant that binds you until death is with a church is not biblical. What if the church that maybe started out as a good church turns out like Jim Jones or worse??? What if you signed and then the church begin to teach things against your belief? Mr Prax does HH teach what it once believed? Would you sign their covenant????????????????? | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1668 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.20.154 |
you, Prax have more sense than that. Why would you lead others into something you would not even do or go? A GOOD shepard gives his life for the sheep he does not send them where he would not go. You leave much to be desired... | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 440 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.137 |
The HH covenant... as the covenant OF God with the power to save... described in Garden of God by Blair Adams... has no support of scripture; especially in the New Testament. JESUS forbids the oaths that they take in HH. God allowed a lot of things under the old covenant that are not a part of the New. This includes priests that stood as advocates between God and man.... It includes the marriage to many wives...Animal sacrifices...I could go on. Vows were, -past tense,- allowed. But now we believers live under a new and greater covenant with Christ is in us; each of us. The marriage covenant was created by God and is a representation of the marriage between the Bride of Christ, (His church,) and the Groom Jesus Christ. When a spiritual covenant between men, created by men, limits our freedom to follow Jesus then it is sin. Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS (oaths), BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS (oaths) TO THE LORD.' "But I say to you, make no oath (swear) at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; and anything beyond these is of evil. --Matthew 5:33-37 (Message edited by ForeverHis on January 07, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1672 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.116.167 |
Our Jesus does not matter to HH...It is what they read into God's word... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 842 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
F_H, just to clarify. You appear to be accepting above that the covenant of Ruth is in fact analogous. However expressing your view that the pattern that was set by Ruth and the people and community and God of Israel would be disobedient today. Thus your view that such a covenant relationship could not be applicable to the - church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth 1 Timothy 3:15 Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 835 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.10 |
FH, "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God." What about this Robin? I don't see you attacking the US. I don't see you setting up little discussion groups about how we need to bring down the US Government. How about some consistency? | ||
| pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
what does HH claim to be and why does what it claims to be resonate so with people even who have left? calling it a cult kind of muddies the water; not that it isn't, but it has more to it than some generic cult. it represents a final step in the restoration of the church, (which i don't believe) but as such, when a person leaves HH and keeps the basic doctrine it is like going backwards in your faith even though you reject HH's idea of going forwards. most if not all people who sign on with HH believe and get into the idea of a final restoration of the true church, (a mirage in my opinon) so, I know that most people posting here are trying to warn others, I still think that they are also trying to make sure that HH is a cult so they can put to rest that once inspiring idea of a true step towards the true church. I see the problem as not only being sure that HH is wrong, but on the flip side, dealing with the form or idea of a true restoration of the New TEst. church...and in some ways this is much more difficult...anyway that my input, I might be out to lunch but that's the way it seems to me. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 442 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.43 |
Prax, Yes. I mentioned the last time we had the discussion about Ruth, that my biggest objection was it's use under the New Covenant and Jesus' command that we make no oaths. Strange thing is HH is not blind to this command and recognizes it in their teachings against saying the pledge of allegiance to the flag and "swearing" in court to tell only the truth. DO, #1. If the US was to ask ME to take that oath, which thankfully they haven't, I would decline even if it cost me my life. #2. That aside, there is also a difference in that the HH is an oath of dealing with my relationship with God, which is far superior to my relationship with the "state." #3. Another point...You know one of my biggest contentions, (besides the MAIN one that it goes DIRECTLY against a command of JESUS,) is the phrase "including myself" which when in the context of words like; allegiance, potentate, sovereignty, and especially fidelity, can mean nothing less than my own conscience. (After having the experience of reading their other literature, seeing their ministry in action, and being a part of HH for seven years, I KNOW it means that.) So, now my turn to ask a question: Why is HH excused from Matthew 5:33-37? | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1674 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.117.100 |
I have always declined oaths... The HH covenant is much more than God expects from any person in relationship with a group...It takes the very life from the person...it gives the person another identity…and sadly NOT the identity of a CHRISTIAN… NO WHERE do we ever find New Testament believers signing vows for this or that...NO WHERE... History gives no indication of a signed vow to some man or group of men... Salvation is on a personal basis...yes I do believe in pastors but not like HH. My loyality is to JESUS first... and my own pastor told me after he went and seen their movement it was more than what the eye on a visit could see it was a system of tight control...and that is how churches have turned into dangerous cults. Now, for Prax who jumps in to defend HH and any other person interested I AM NOT SAYING HH IS A DANGEROUS CULT BUT I am saying that is how many dangerous cults started...Complete control... HH is not excused from Mat. 5: 33-37...the are included in Gal. 1:4-8... There are no NEW REVELATIONS...the WORD is FOREVER SETTLED in heaven... Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, William Braham are among many others that have claimed a new revelation...Where have they lead the people with their new revelations? I will answer my own question for I deal with these groups everyday...they lead the people into bondage... I know the results of man made covenants...as I said my grandmother was Eastern Star...my Grandfather a high ranking Mason, my cousin a Mason, my doctor and other friends Jehovah's Witnesses, I taught at a Mormon school, I know lots of people their lives were ruined by Branham teaching...maybe a little far out but I deal daily with people that have made vows in witchcraft to what they thought was right. I tell you as an old missionary and a woman of God that making some kind of vow is not for us and against Bible teachings of the NT church...and besides that the vow Ruth made was her vow to her mother in law. Our covenant is to God and to Him alone... Do you think all those Jim Jones followers were goofy people? They were not! Many were sincere people that were sincerely deceived. Many found out it was too late what they were into. Anyone thinking of becoming a member of HH or anywhere that is so controlling had better think and pray many times… | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 843 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, First, I will point out that the questions I asked about the Doug Dean article were not addressed. What does his anti-community anti-covenant church have to offer in the real world ? Only the 'emergent' new-age mishegas ? Similarly my questions about Doug Dean's ideas of 'freedom' and 'conscience' are not addressed above. Are they really Biblical, God's plan and anointing for Biblical freedom through holiness, sanctity, relationship and service, or are they more secular and humanistically derived ? Second, I will try to partly bypass for now the hypocrisy of 'living dead' Alvear, who tries to brush HH as Jim Jones on one hand, proclaiming to the world that they are involved in a 'death covenant' while, when trying for a momentary shred of credibility on this forum she hollers, "I AM NOT SAYING HH IS A DANGEROUS CULT". This is truly a spiritual theater of the absurd. Mrs. Alvear is simply consumed in confusion and bitterness and would do better to seek God and put the crusade aside. She has been abandoned by those here, the oppos, who could try to help her. Especially F_H, who struggles hard to put up the front of 'reasonableness' so she could in fact try to manifest a real fairness and help to Mrs. Alvear - yet F_H does nothing but support every vileness and bitterness and confusion. The dynamic duo. =================== Anyway, F_H, that aside, thank you for recognizing that HH is not blind to the major questions involved. All of this likely could be a fascinating study. We know that covenant can be wonderful, from God, and yet there are restrictions in the realm of swearing oaths. What is the Holy Spirit balance and truth ? What is the harmony of all verses, eg. including.. Hebrews 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. To be clear, I do not have quick, pat answers to any of these questions. Simply I would like to be attuned to God's truth. Here is the commentary of John Gill on the above. Men when they swear, they swear by the greater; not by themselves, as God does, because there is one greater than they; not by any of the creatures on earth, nor by the angels in heaven, but by God; because he is the God of truth, the searcher of hearts, and who can take vengeance on perjurers: and an oath may lawfully be taken, when it is truth that is sworn to, and is just and good; and in cases of weight and moment; and in what is possible and right to perform; and when it is done with deliberation, in the fear of God, with a view to his glory, and the good of men: for an oath is of a moral nature, what God has commanded, and he himself has taken; it has been used by Christ, and by the saints of the Old and New Testament; and is prophesied of the New Testament saints, as what they should practise; and is a part of religious worship: Again, I only offer these verses and commentary for consideration, for measure, for balance. May we all seek to know the truth of the Bible from the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, allow me to ask you one simple question, F_H. Above, you seem to want to place all NT covenants as improper, yet making an exception for the marriage covenant, preferably before God. What is your precise scriptural basis for this exception ? Sanctioning a verbal acknowledgment of the marriage covenant yet not any other such acknowledgment, such as amongst believers in the Lord Jesus living in dedication and community and service one to another ? What verses say that a marriage vow or a marriage covenant are the exception to the Matthew verses as you understand them ? Should not a husband and wife simply say 'yes' or 'no' and no more ? Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on January 08, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1675 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.117.100 |
Dowen, are you blind..the government is not going to use measures that HH uses...that is completely a different story... Gov. and church are TWO different things. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1676 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.117.100 |
Prax you do not know what I am consumed with...you just try to say bad things about me. I am consumed with a passion for TRUTH and missions. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 845 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Mrs. Alvear, at this time, with the vitriol pouring forth daily from your lips, this is how you present yourself .. Lamentations 3:6-8 He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old. He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy. Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1680 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.57.69.188 |
glad the Judge of the earth knows my heart. You sure do not. | ||
| not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.182.160 |
seems from my experience they use the form of the covenant to hold thier church together. within those bounds the control begins. slowly i lost my reason for being there, my relationship with Christ. it was replaced with my relationship with my group leader. very hard to break away from due to their teaching and indoctrinations. a solid foundation with the Spirit prior to joining would end up soul saving to me in the end. funny how i remember reading from ba that all privious knowledge of God must be disposed of after coming to hh. makes sense now. whats the point of going to a Christian church without Christ?? | ||
| fullofquestions Intermediate Member Username: fullofquestions Post Number: 116 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.57.32.25 |
Over here too? | ||
| fullofquestions Intermediate Member Username: fullofquestions Post Number: 117 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.57.32.25 |
It is all about integrity. | ||
| pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 438 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 |
It’s July 2nd, 1863. The Battle of Gettysburg is the bloodiest battle in the American Civil war. A Christian Union soldier stops to pray before entering battle. He asks the Lord to protect him and make his aim straight. At the same time a Confederate Christian soldier says a short prayer before he kneels to shoot. He also asks God to protect him and make his aim straight. These two take aim at each other. What does God do? Steven....Janice......like these two soldiers you both have your beliefs and feel strong in what you are fighting for. I believe you both have something important to say. Be careful how you involve God in all of this. To the audience it looks dreadful to see you hit each other over the head with your bibles. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1727 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.57.69.188 |
You are right...I am wrong...I am a passionate person...I raised black children and took them to churches where I know they have KKK members...to prove that blacks are people just like white people. I saw so much wrongdoing at HH and so much hurt I guess I have fought with Steve when he really does not know what he is defending... I am sorry...I will try to explain more on why I believe HH doctrine, belief's and practices are wrong...I ask forgivness... Sister Alvear |
