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charitygrace
Junior Member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 72.150.253.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 2:26 pm: | 
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Originally posted by foreverhis on May 31, 2005
Edited to say: I am sorry, rereading this, I can see where by using the word "you" in this writing it might be taken as a personal accussation.
What I meant to do was to help you walk in my shoes. I should have stressed...If you were in my shoes when I was going through this then this is what you would of thought and felt. Other words, this is what I thought and felt. "You" is me. These are the feelings I struggled with. "You" is the writer, not the reader.
***************************************
Doubt Control and the Glass House it builds
For me living in HH is like living in a glass house. We were taught to take every thought captive. This verse was not just aimed at fleshly thought but primarily aimed at doubts about the doctrines, events, and especially the authority of the elders and group leaders. I was taught over and over again that the enemy's greatest weapon against us is to get us to question their authority. After a while this practice of pushing back or dismissing all the negative thoughts becomes automatic. You don’t even have to make an effort to cast the negative thoughts down. The first negative word in your thought sentence automatically dismisses the thought and replaces it with a positive thought you have been given. Positive thoughts like, “The elders are God’s anointed. I am so blessed to be here.” “If anyone is wrong it is me, (or the person who brought up the doubt,) it certainly isn’t the elders. Who am I to question what God has shown them.” “I am sooooo blessed to be a part of this Body. I couldn’t make it without it. It is my salvation.” “God is so Good to let me, as undeserving as I am, be a part of it.” You might admit to yourself, “It’s not perfect, BUT this is the best place to be. Thank you Jesus for bringing me here.” Gone is the negative before you even finish the thought, in its place is a reaffirming thought blessing.
You have reformed you mind to only deal with the good thoughts about HH and all it entails. After a while you live in this crystal palace where negative or bad things are impossible to believe or not important enough to consider or ponder. Like sweeping dirt under a rug the lump grows and so must the denial of it. You don't see the carnality, (natural man we deal with until we go home to the Lord,) in your children, your brothers and sisters, and especially your leaders. |
charitygrace
Junior Member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 33
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 72.150.253.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
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Glass House continued from above
*************
You, yourself, have been broken: you view yourself as a worm who has been blessed. You feel that without HH you couldn't walk with God. Your spiritual dependence on HH has become paramount in your life. (paramount: supreme, dominant, chief, overriding, vital)
You know those who have left HH did so for a reason, but you subconsciously don't want to hear it, (and the leaders don't want you to hear it.) Just the fact that you knew the people who left loved the Lord and you respected them for their walk with Him makes it hard to believe they left. (This is why HH begins a smear campaign on the characters of the people who leave. They don’t want you to believe that someone would leave HH because God had led them to go. They want you to believe it was the flesh or the enemy.) You don’t want to have a heart-to-heart talk with your loved ones who left. Fear of reprisal from a leader, fear of learning the rumors aren’t true, and fear that they might influence you to have doubts and you too might leave and loose the blessings and all your friends. You want to guard against the thought that you might have missed God’s will, that you might have spent all these years in a fantasy world created by deception and denial of the truth. You don’t want to have to repent for worshiping the temple or the body while searing your own conscious toward God. If you have deceived yourself, then you have misled others: your spouse, your children, and visitors who stayed in your home. The spiritual responsibility for that is too great to take on yourself. It is easier on the heart and mind if you don’t “go there.” Don’t talk to them about why they left. Don’t listen to your loved ones outside who are concerned about you. Make sure they know that they know that talking negatively or questioning your decision to be a part of HH is taboo. Let them know with your response and body language that they must keep their conversation agreeable or you will change your relationship with them to a shallow one or discontinue it all together. Push those thoughts out, think good thoughts.
When you read the Word and see a contradiction to what you have been taught, when His word convicts you or warns you, remember that Bro. B and all those leaders have read it and they understand it better and are “anointed.” You remain humble and convince yourself you just don’t understand the verse then dismiss it and any doubt it brings. Turn the pages, read somewhere else or pick up the literature. There now don’t you fell better; more secure? What a blessing.
I have been to these places in my heart and mind, I know… How many others of you have been there? |
charitygrace
Junior Member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 72.150.253.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 2:30 pm: |
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Glass House continued from above
*************
The house has become so fragile, the denial so great, that one small rock, (dealing with the doubt,) could cause the whole thing to shatter. You have become so good at protecting that crystal palace you not only cast down the doubts, you avoid them and anyone who might cast them your way.
Thinks of the Barcus family, the Crows, Bob and Eleanor M., the Beachners, and many more; some were even group leaders. You know they didn't walk away from God. So you do your best not to think of them. If they call you, the phone conversation will be uncomfortable. You love them and you don't want to just hang up. Talk is surface talk. How's the weather, the kids, etc... Not, “Are the rumors true? How is your walk with the Lord? Why did you leave?”
When will you finally allow God to deal with that lump under the rug? (Usually it takes a major personal or family crisis that drives you to your knees and you cry out to God willing to hear anything He has to say, even if it's to tell you to thinks you don't want to hear. You stop playing the mind games. Then after that, He tells you to pick up the rug and deal with your doubts. You begin to search His Word and your heart for the answers. Some of the lumps are trash from the enemy, but just as much of what you swept under there are the warning signs, the red flags, the doubts and problems that needed dealt with and answered, and a major portion of that lump is the answers God has for you that you refused to hear because they caused even more doubts that need even more answers.
If you have support from the outside, or your crisis is big enough you won’t just leave that lump there and cover it back up in fear. (I went to my husband and he did the "dismiss it" thing. So I cried out even harder to God. This caused my husband to go to our leaders. They did the “beat around the bush” and the "dismiss it," thing too. So I cried out to God even more. Then my husband realized he and the elders had no answers for me and he too began to cry out to God for answers to those questions.)
As you open your heart and mind to God and His Word for answers you start seeing cracks in the glass. You will either, with help of the leaders, sweep everything back under the rug out of fear or you will see the house shatter then eventually crumble. (This is scary, heart wrenching, painful, and shocking. As you begin to see all you refused to see before, you have to guard your heart against anger or bitterness towards others and yourself. ) (We saw the house shatter, but we loved the people who lived there so much that at first we decided to stay and live in the house. We knew no house was perfect. Our hope was that even a house as broken as this one could be livable and healed by God.) |
charitygrace
Junior Member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 72.150.253.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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Glass House continued from above
*****************
Eventually, you will either realize you need to provide a safer home for your children or the leaders will come to you and ask you to leave so this crystal image isn't shattered in the minds of others or even their own. {As we opened our eyes and our hearts and began to grow in our personal relationships with God, we realized that God wanted us to move on even tough it meant we would loose the relationships we had formed with our loved ones. Before we told the elders we were leaving, they went to my husband and they said we must leave voluntarily or be forced out. Their reason… We had too many questions. We were told that we would not be disfellowshipped, (“on bad terms,”) as long as we didn’t cause problems for HH. By being “on good terms” people could talk to us if they bumped into us at the store etc… (It did not mean that we would be invited into their homes or that they would accept our invitations to fellowship with us. We had been around long enough to understand what happens when people leave “on good terms” or “bad terms.”)}
The glass house with all the lumpy carpets, (now even lumpier because you left,) will remain in the lives of the love ones you leave behind, until one day, in God's mercy He will draw or drive them to the same openness to His answers and they will finally be willing to hear them.
This time of growth in the Lord is so sweet and comforting, but first comes the repentance for searing your conscience toward Him, for not loving Him above all else, and everyone else, including His people. There is also repenting for fearing man and being a man pleaser, (for having called those men “father” when He has said, “call no man Father.”) There is a repentance for those who trusted you and you lead them astray, especially your children. It is a Godly sorrow. (The deepest sorrow I felt was for letting His truth, the Simple Gospel of Jesus, become polluted with my attempts of finishing what he said was finished at His cross. I had let His cross fall into the shadow of my own. I repented for giving up His gift of unmerited redemption and the joy of my salvation for going to bed most nights wondering if my deeds were acceptable and unblemished enough for His approval and salvation intact. Thank God, He has forgiven me and returned the joy I had before I joined HH.) The sweetness of His presence, His closeness, His greatness and love and the joy of your salvation replace the sorrows and the fears.
He never left me nor forsook me. In my unfaithfulness, He was faithful. He restored my faith in His simple Gospel of truth. I am His. I cry, (real tears,) with thankfulness every time I hear or read the Gospel. He loved me while I was unlovable. His blood has cleansed me and it covers me. I have been GIVEN, (not earned,) a robe of white. He suffered and died that I might live. Then He rose again and sent His Spirit to abide in me. How great is His love!!!! How can I not love Him in return and will to live a life that glorifies Him and leads others to Him?
God is Holy! |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.106.178
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 8:29 am: |
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too many questions????????????
That is what they thought about me...........
questions bother them because THEY know they are wrong...but pride keeps them from admitting their wrong doing...
I trie to tell my Mom but she answered just like my JW friends...oh but where else could I go since we have the most light here...
May God forgive men that have brainwashed people into believing they have so much truth far above other people... |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 228
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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We asked questions like the Bible says _____ .... Why then do we do _____....
They said unless two agree how can they walk together. They released us from our vows and said we could leave voluntarily or be disfellowshipped. |
pureheart
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 409
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 5:38 pm: |
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............... They released us from our vows................
Would you give further details about this statement? I’m told this covenant is considered unbreakable without possible wrath from God. That would include both parties to said covenant. I am very interested in this. Please reply. |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1025
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.62.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 5:47 pm: |
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I was told breaking the covenant was like breaking the wedding vow...and to leave was to divorce...
check it out... |
praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 504
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 5:58 pm: |
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Hi Folks,
Actually even what is posted here, it is pretty clear that HH is quite open to questions. One person talked about discussions 100 times. Probably they handle tons more than the average denominational ministry, with its limited structure.
And clearly the tone and manner and purpose of a question can vary. What sounds like the very same question may be a hunger and seeking for truth, for consistency, or it may just be trying to lay a trap, to find a cause of offense.
Perhaps the concern of the disaffected is more not that questions were not addressed, but that they don't like the HH answers ..
Let's give a relatively simple example. A person might ask many times why such-and-such doesn't qualify as modest attire. Why, the Bible does not specifically say a..b..c . Or why folks don't have subscriptions to Life Magazine, or whatever. Why the Bible doesn't specifically say a..b..c.
Now most everyone here would agree that a Christian community fellowship has the right to set such standards, but some here may object, and they could raise the very same question dozens of times in various ways, laying traps.
Is the heart yielding and seeking, or crusty and looking for offense ?
Well you might say
"aw, those are not good examples, I understand that fellowship standards and practice extends there, but my question was on another level".
And so much of this is perception.
The person who bumps against Godly authority (I am saying this in a general manner, not specifically in regards to HH) will always have a justification, a rationale, a sounds-good explanation.
Ultimately, such issues are spiritually discerned, not a protractor angle analysis dissection of our logical minds .. but something far greater .. a move of the Holy Spirit discerning our hearts.
We are very good at hiding our own fleshly nature, yet God is not mocked.
Yours in Jesus name,
Praxaluh |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 229
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.101
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:38 am: |
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Yes they said they released us from our vows.
There had been a couple other times where the opportunity to be released from the vow was extended to everyone. At least one time was during a Sunday meeting. I can't remember the particulars on that one. (I do remember a few people standing up after the offer by BA and quoting Ruth's vow while holding on to their earlobe and looking directly at BA.) It has actually been a prayer of mine during this last month that this offer would be repeated soon and regularly. |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 230
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.101
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:41 am: |
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Our questions were asked sincerely and with respect. Our group leader even commented on that.
Some questions were about the book "Answers to Questions Visitors Ask, that was recently distributed at the time.
Most were doctrinal. None were about petty things like dress, diet, or other restrictions.
There were questions about salvation, authority, of men standing as a covering between men and God, about disassociating people with troubles or family issues, so not to bring embarrassment to HH and about shunning people.
Some questions were about a book written by BA, long before, concerning the limits of authority and safe guards against abuse that were not being followed. The big limit was that no one in authority would make a decision concerning someone they were not in direct relationship to; yet it was being done often. The idea was that it was easier to abuse authority and make harsh or wrong decisions when you won't personally know the person well or witness the results of your decisions. (The writer faulted state authority for this reason.)The elders and the pastor were making decisions concerning people that hardly knew them and vice versa. They would relay the decisions to the group leaders for them to carry it down to the member. There were even fathers who were so busy, between providing for their families and serving HH that were handing down decisions and discipline through the mothers for their own children that they had no time to relate too. (HH, for a long time, was in the mist of building the village and the new church building.)God impressed on me to respectfully, lovingly, and very meekly ask my group leaders when was the last time they had time for their children other than to discipline them. Both of the men just looked down at their feet and did not answer. They showed no animosity to me for asking. These two men knew we loved them and their families. |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 231
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.101
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:43 am: |
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Our group leaders knew we were genuinely concerned. It was not these men, it was the main elders, who made the decision that we should leave. Our group leaders told us how they went to bat for us had expressed to the elders that we were being meek and respectful in submitting our questions. They personally could not answer our questions and would take them back to the elders. The answers they brought back did not address the questions. They admitted this when my husband pointed it out. Never did they tell us our questions were unfounded or disrespectful in any way or manner.
I promise you, we were praying and fasting, (and we had some friends praying and fasting with us,) that they would see the problems and possibly make changes. We prayed that if nothing else, that if the elders closed their minds and hearts, that our group leaders, (these two men, that we greatly loved,) would see it. We knew God's will was for us to be soft spoken, humble, and submit our views and questions is the most submissive and loving way.
Our group leader told my husband, (I was sitting next to him, and I will never forget,) "Brother ____, I understand what you are going through. Sometimes I will be driving in my truck to ________ and these kinds of questions and doubts will come into my mind. You have to recognize what is happening and take every thought captive."
At one point the one of our group leader's wife stopped coming with these two men to talk with us. Our group leader told my husband it was because I was "too convincing." But it wasn't me, it was the truth that was convincing. Our meetings with them in our home were very peaceful. None of these meetings contained raised voices or arguments. |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 232
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.101
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:47 am: |
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We knew without a doubt that God was showing us that for our children's sake we couldn't stay with things as they were in HH. We saw them being hurt and we had started to see how wrong things were, (especially the doctrines.) But I was hoping and praying we would have more time and everything would become alright somehow. My husband was not planning on leaving yet and I was MORE than willing to stay and submit to his decision completely either way. There was NO division between us at all. I loved them so much. I was hoping time would make things right. I felt the grace to leave if it came down to that, but I still didn't want too. One reason was because of fear, But the bigest reason was because of I knew I would probably be shunned by those we loved.
I was afraid of leaving because of some of things we were taught that happens to those who leave, and I afraid of staying because I saw the abuse of scripture and people and the harm being done.
Then one day after weeks of meetings in our home with our group leaders, they called my husband to say the elders would meet with HIM. It was then that the elders told him they decided we had to leave. I never got to meet with the elders personally.
When the elders released us from our vows, and made our decision for us, the finality of it all was certain. We were at peace and ready to continue the revival in our personal relationships with our Lord Jesus. Still, there was a sadness along with that peace. We had the joy of our salvation, and the burden for those we left behind. We were grateful to Him for setting us free, but I cried for many weeks. It wasn't easy.
(Message edited by foreverhis on August 10, 2006) |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.73.250
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:57 pm: |
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Only those once bound can really know what real freedom is... |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 235
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.57
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 6:29 pm: |
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Amen. |
foreverhis
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 1:38 pm: |
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Bump |
missionary_lady
New member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.52.50
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 5:34 pm: |
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Thank God we are forever loosed from HH. |
dowen
New member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 7:32 pm: |
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God is doing some great things at HH.
It may not be the place for you, but it IS the place for many wonderful people. And maybe, just maybe, you could be wonderfully blessed by some of HH's members. God spoke through a donkeys mouth, and He might choose to speak through HH's mouth. You wouldn't want to miss Him on account of your belligerent dis-fellowshiping of HH, would you?
Peace,
DOwen.
(Message edited by dowen on May 05, 2007) |
common_sense
New member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.133.197.125
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 8:33 pm: |
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Is DOwen comparing HH to a donkey?!  |
common_sense
New member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.133.197.125
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 8:37 pm: |
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And who is it that is dis-fellowshipping whom? |
missionary_lady
New member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.13.222.214
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:19 am: |
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HH a donkey? Would have thought you could compare HH to something besides a dumb donkey...lol
Well, maybe God just might speak through the mouth of some of those animals out there on the land and bring freedom to a people who live in bondage...who knows... I doubt if he could do it through the men there so He just might use an animal...never thought about that ... |
dowen
New member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.236.189
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:48 pm: |
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It is sad that you appear to have greater respect for "dumb donkeys" than you do for your fellow Christians.
You speak of "weeping" for the "poor little lambs" at HH, but I don't believe it. If you truly cared for the folks at HH you wouldn't treat them with such disdain.
Maybe, when the mocking poking and prodding of HH ceases, you can be taken seriously. |
missionary_lady
New member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.13.222.214
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:53 pm: |
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Dowen you have no ideal the tears I have cried over HH's false ways...The poor little lambs at HH cannot even read a newspaper how would they know what is really going on in the real world? Or how would they even know about the love of Christ since it is man they must please and not Christ? |
dowen
New member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 10:15 pm: |
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Sorry Mrs. Alvear, but you are simply wrong.
Just last night I witnessed a young member of HH reading the Newspaper.
And, I know without a doubt that the young HH members I spoke to last night know more about the Love of Christ than the average 20-something in The States.
Perhaps you are the one missing out on "The Love of Christ". It sure seems like it when I read your post's. |
missionary_lady
New member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.13.187.64
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 11:35 pm: |
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time will tell Daniel just who loves Christ. I don't plan to spend my time here going back and forth with you. OUR works, life and testimony tells what we are. |
praxaluh
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.243
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 4:19 am: |
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Mrs. Alvear
"The poor little lambs at HH cannot even read a newspaper how would they know what is really going on in the real world?"
Hi Folks,
Hmm... the things of God are much more the
"real world"
than the daily crime and corruption and accident and politic scandal report.
Those who do not have that information come into the sanctity of their home each day have received an extra blessing and have their walk with God that much less disturbed and distracted.
Just like those of you who took a break from trying to fabricate causes of offense on this list .. this was also to your spiritual health and advantage. (Especially if you forsook the funk list and other such activities as well.)
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
missionary_lady
New member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.137.58
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 10:24 am: |
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well...back to their rescuse...what would they ever do without Prax...to bad he does not recieve the sad proven e mails I do...but am asked not to share them here at least for the time being... |
missionary_lady
New member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.137.58
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 10:29 am: |
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and always judging me as well...I pay you no attention Prax for I KNOW the truth...
IN fact I have recieved calls from the states thanking me for taking a stand against evil.. |
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