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ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1072
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.199.87
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:27 pm: | 
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Those from the philippines can start posting here. I will be posting here with news soon. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 5:19 am: |
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And since I was told some of the philippine pastors are being OVERPAID . Some are 1 million pesos. While the rest of the staff are struggling. Its happening also in his own churches. So Rice and Phil, stealing and getting overpaid is OK with Steve Murrell
Now, these philippine pastor under Steve Murrell does not want any of the Philippine pastors and staff knows about this 1 million pesos salary.
I wonder why ???
Now, 1 million pesos is no big deal to me thats only $18,180 a year. but to them thats huge.
Why can't we let those Philippine people and the philippine pastors decide if 1 million pesos is Big for them. Just let everybody knows that he is making that much. If there is nothing wrong with it, then he would not be afraid to tell the truth.
It was not just him making a million pesos, he(Batman) even hired his own brother(that is Robin) to be his associate pastor and pays him over 900,000 pesos. Just trying to keep those money within the family. So it wont spread out.
---SO WHAT DO THE SOUTHERN STAFF SAY ABOUT THIS? NOTHING..SAME REASON..THEY ARE ALL SCARED...
THIS IS TRUE GINGER...it is happening here in Manila..abuses, control,manipulation,money issues..all happening in SOUTHERN MALL... |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 5:23 am: |
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And since I was told some of the philippine pastors are being OVERPAID . Some are 1 million pesos. While the rest of the staff are struggling. Its happening also in his own churches. So Rice and Phil, stealing and getting overpaid is OK with Steve Murrell
Now, these philippine pastor under Steve Murrell does not want any of the Philippine pastors and staff knows about this 1 million pesos salary.
I wonder why ???
Now, 1 million pesos is no big deal to me thats only $18,180 a year. but to them thats huge.
Why can't we let those Philippine people and the philippine pastors decide if 1 million pesos is Big for them. Just let everybody knows that he is making that much. If there is nothing wrong with it, then he would not be afraid to tell the truth.
It was not just him making a million pesos, he(Batman) even hired his own brother(that is Robin) to be his associate pastor and pays him over 900,000 pesos. Just trying to keep those money within the family. So it wont spread out.
---SO WHAT DO THE SOUTHERN STAFF SAY ABOUT THIS? NOTHING..SAME REASON..THEY ARE ALL SCARED...
THIS IS TRUE GINGER...it is happening here in Manila..abuses, control,manipulation,money issues..all happening in SOUTHERN MALL... |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 6:02 am: |
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HI GINGER  THIS SHOULD BE IN THIS FOLDER...JUST TRYING TO ORGANIZE...LOL....
Hmmm is Manila any better. I would say yes, not totally perfect by the way. The control , abuse and legalism DO EXIST in manila. And the philippine leadership does not deny it. Unlike the US EN, they vehemently denied it for years. The philippine leaders also have asked a few people to step down due to this. The main problem is some have learn to play the religious games. That means kissing up. And those people who kiss up to the philippine leaders have stayed and not get caught.
Currently, In Steve Murrell's church, People are LEAVING because Steve's involvement with the US EN. Not just his involvement but also the most current one is the cover up of the financial scandal. Some have stop their tithings. Some REFUSED TO even attend Rice Brookes "businessmen meeting" in the philippines.
Another problem lies with the Philippine leaders is to shrug off the filipinos when they start asking question. Or even talk down on them, some even DENY about whats happening in the US EN Board. Some were shocked that Rice brookes is not the president any longer but Steve Murrell.
Steve Murrell need a Philippine leadership meeting like what happened in the January Palm Spring meeting. He needs to be open to ALL his pastors and tell them whats going on and so if anybody in the philippine congregation ask, they can be answered honestly and openly.
Its because a lot of the Philippine pastors who stood loyal not just to Steve but also to the entire EN movement. Even though its corrupt to the core. There are Philippine pastors who chose to be blind and some just plain ignorant and when ask, they would not know.
This Ministry was established in 1982. And there are people , who were trained and discipled by Steve Murrell who are not in leadership are LEAVING. Steve Murrell has taught us to learn to think of our own. But some of the newest ones, who were not trained by Steve Murrell, were not trained to think on their own but what the leaders said. Due to loyalty to Steve Murrell and loyalty to EN.
I do not know what hold the Philippine congregation future. But if this congregation break apart, it would be on Steve Murrell's hand simply because of his involvement in EN.
It remind me of a story in the bible. 2 chronicles 35.
King Josiah is a righteous king before the Lord. He went into the battle. To fight his enemy. Unfortunately for him, The Lord spoke through his enemy. The person whom he does not trust.
The Lord can speak even to our own worst enemies, God can choose and used anybody, even our own worst enemy. Our job is to recognized HIS VOICE. It will be our own fault if we DO NOT RECOGNIZED HIS VOICE. As for King Josiah , he died not knowing that was the Lord's voice warning him.
Hopefully that will not happen to Steve Murrell. I do hope he recognized the Lord's voice even with his own worst enemies. Before it is too late. |
philiprosenthal
Intermediate Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 499
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 6:37 am: |
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I don't know Steve Murrell personally, but from reading his writings, I get the impression he is trying to preserve old friendships as well as be loyal to Christ. Old friendships can be very valuable and very painful to break, but sometimes when our friends go the wrong way, then if we really love them, we just have to tell them to repent - even if it results in major damage to the relationship. That is what I have had to do with a lot of my old friends in His People. It is very painful, but I believe Christ demands loyalty to himself above all other relationships.
MT 10:35 For I have come to turn " `a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
MT 10:36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'*
MT 10:37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
I hope one day to be reconciled to some of my old friends who are now in His People senior leadership, but for now, I'm not going to quit calling the ministry to repentance for its sins. This approach is very painful for 'old-timer' leaders, but I believe its the only way we can bring EveryNation ministries back to God. |
lablady2
Intermediate Member
Username: lablady2
Post Number: 202
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 69.139.118.35
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 6:40 am: |
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Phillip, what if it isn't God's plan to bring EveryNation ministries "back to God?" What if it is His plan to let it fall apart because He didn't ordain it? |
mdillon
Intermediate Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 441
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 64.16.178.77
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 8:06 am: |
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PR-"This approach is very painful for 'old-timer' leaders, but I believe its the only way we can bring EveryNation ministries back to God."
as an "old timer" gotta say this doesn't bother me the least. however, you must know that I held this same hope for Maranatha and wound up wasting years of my life (God redeems, i know). if its not obvious by now after nearly 35 years and 20,000 posts and the trail of carnage of the faulty foundation of this religious antichrist corporation--------well, what are you going to do? Yes, all things are possible, but you can't bring EN "back" to somewhere its never been---of God. You cannot make a bramble bush bear apples. God is not sentimental toward any ministry, name, heritage, nation, ad infinitum.
Philip, good luck with that. I'm glad this is not my job.
md |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 502
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 8:11 am: |
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Mdillon. I don't want to get off topic on this thread, but His People did not have a faulty foundation. It had a good foundation of the Bible and revival spiritual fire. It went off track later. I have no personal knowledge of Maranatha history. |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 584
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.201.118
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 8:37 am: |
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"Steve Murrell need a Philippine leadership meeting like what happened in the January Palm Spring meeting. He needs to be open to ALL his pastors and tell them whats going on and so if anybody in the philippine congregation ask, they can be answered honestly and openly. "
this will never happen!
its sad to say, but as i am staring to talk with people here - even people involved in leadership - no one really knows whats going on.-
the cover up is working so well, that people dont even lnow here that Bonasso had to step back already by the end of last year.
No one knows anything. the local pastors also play a big part in this cover up, because they often seem to think, that the congregation should not know everything.
sad.
and foolish!
because people will find out by themselfes, as i did. and then they will react. |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 503
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 8:42 am: |
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I chatted to someone in HP Cape Town recently. He didn't know there had been any scandals in EveryNation other than Paul Daniel. Problem is that people will eventually find out - and then lose confidence in leadership which doesn't tell them the whole truth. |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 585
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.201.118
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 9:40 am: |
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the leaders in EN have NO respect of the church members at all. to cover up such scandals (like the Fetchel, and the Bonasso scandals) is such an act of disrespect, that its incredible. its not just like in politics, because in a modern democratic nation you have the opposition (God thanks for this) which brings light into things that the gouvernment wants to cover.
but we dont have such thing in the church (opposition).
So its worse than in a democratic nation. its like in communism, where the leadership and their friends live the lives of millionaires, break the communistic ideals, abuse their followers and cover up scandals. and they inprison the opposition....
unforunatelly i am short of time at the moment, but i will bring up an article sooner or later, where i will prrof that authotarian church gouvernantial systems are very similar to the communistic form of gouvernment!
so - as is said once before - the only "revival" i am aware of, at the moment, is the revival of "communism"... |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 586
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.201.118
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
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it looks like, that the average church member in many of the EN churches is just a "human resource"!
i am very angry, that this is happening in something that calles itself "church"! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1167
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 1:25 pm: |
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Based on the Philippine Victory Church Salary based, Senior Pastors are being paid at $1000 a month. But Ariel of Alabang church is being paid at 1 million pesos , then he hired his own brother Bernard to be paid at 900,000 pesos.
1 million pesos a year divided by 55 is $18,180 a year divided by 12, so that is roughly around $1500 a month.
I spoke to a few people who knows Ariel, I was told even from 20 years ago, Ariel is pretty aristocrat. My guess from a prominent family. And has not changed.
I know $1000 a month is not enough for a regular family, but if he has problem with that, he should get a civilian job and should not be a pastor. Then to even hire his own brother, is pretty bad. Both should quit and get a REAL JOB. And pass that job to those who are willing to lived sacrificially at $1000 a month.
Same thing with all the US EN pastors, if they do not like their salaries without defrauding people, GET A CIVILIAN JOB ! |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 588
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 1:40 pm: |
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well, ginger. i have no proble, if a pastor gets paid well. if he works as a pastor for the church, and is not traveling on the churches expenses for his own material benefit (like i have seen it happening all too often).
a good rule is to pay the pastor a perhaps 10% better than average salary.
people who take themselves 600.000/annum are NUTS! totally out of controlle!
but there is also an abuse from the "downline" so to say. to keep the pastor bound with a low income. this does no good to the church and not tho the pastor.
everything should be based on love. while it is a lack of respect and of love to construct a salary of 600K/annum its also, from the other side, a lack of love and respect to pay the pastors peanuts. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1169
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 1:51 pm: |
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Robert, I have no problem if a pastor is getting a large salary, BUT , Philippine Victory churches has a rule $1000 a month. All senior pastors should abide by that rule.
Same thing like the Roman Catholic church on celibacy. All Priest abide by that rule, they need to be celibate for them to be qualified as a priest. It may be a dumb rule, but rules are rules. These are guidelines for a reason.
Philippine Victory churches has a guideline on Salaries. And Ariel does not want any of the Philippine churches know how much he is making. And a lot of the staff are barely making it, underpaid by the philippine standard under Ariel. |
maranatha1984
Advanced Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 657
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 1:51 pm: |
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Philip:I don't want to get off topic on this thread, but His People did not have a faulty foundation. It had a good foundation of the Bible and revival spiritual fire. It went off track later. I have no personal knowledge of Maranatha history
Tikie: Okay...I posit that EN has rotten roots and rotten DNA going back to the MCM days. All three founders were MCMers, with Phil and Rice being two of the "usual suspects" that thrived in MCM.
I have no knowledge of HP...but will IMHO what happens when you merge HP with EN/MCM...why you simply get a much larger EN/MCM.
To all: EN is rotten. Steve was a good person when I knew him (see my blog on my simple theory of people)...but he is trying to save a house that is built on rotten foundations set in quicksand. If EN comes apart, which I believe that it will, God Almight will take care of His children.
"and the walls came a tumbling down..." |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 151
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.211.121.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 2:42 pm: |
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I have a book that I read a long time ago (early 80s), it's titled Inside the Criminal Mind. Part of it examines the problem with the modern American penal system's emphasis on "rehabilitation". One thing that sticks in my mind is the author's statement that you can rehabilitate what was never habilitated in the first place. |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 432
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 4:46 pm: |
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Robert: So its worse than in a democratic nation. its like in communism, where the leadership and their friends live the lives of millionaires, break the communistic ideals, abuse their followers and cover up scandals. and they inprison the opposition....
Dust: This is what makes a free society so wonderful.....I remember EN leaders saying, "THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY." And, they were proud of this. Robert, you have excellent insight into why their form of government does not work.
Philip writes; but His People did not have a faulty foundation.
Dust: How can this be true? The "reputation" and his sexual escapades was not limited to just the year he was caught. YOU are so right on about preachers and infidelity on another thread.
A long-term adulterous leader was already in place BEFORE the merging. Am I wrong on this? |
gilligan
New member
Username: gilligan
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 203.177.222.50
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 8:45 pm: |
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Maranatha1984 - "To all: EN is rotten. Steve was a good person when I knew him (see my blog on my simple theory of people)...but he is trying to save a house that is built on rotten foundations set in quicksand. If EN comes apart, which I believe that it will, God Almighty will take care of His children."
That's the truth, maybe sad, but it’s evidently the truth, the real score. The foundations are soft and shaky because it is mixed in with so much of the personal standards of the senior leaders, to the point that the senior leaders have became the final interpretation of church standards.
But what makes the Maranatha/EN/VCF episode so painful is that it manipulated many lives and careers, typically those that have served for 10-20 years. It’s no wonder that many old time members feel so much empathy reading the posting at factnet.
EN/VCF turned out to be one huge experiment. Things like:
1. The multiple EN/VCF self-appointed apostles (apostles are appointed by God for the entire Body and not just for the benefit of a single movement like EN/VCF - an apostle is an Apostle when it is confirmed by the Body, usually after decades of proven testimonies). Our apostles include a 20 year track record of negative testimonies.
2. The absence of genuine accountability. The pastoral authority only practices “upward” accountability;
3. The cultural and stubborn habit of control and legalism (despite their denials) by the leaders;
4. The appointment of (immature, un-prepared) leaders and pastors just because they are part of the inner circle or worse, because they are rich members. It's no wonder they behave very subjectively, inclusive of revenge, control, abuse, etc.
5. Accusing whistle blowers using the following doctrines like offense, gossip, bitterness. Scripture should never be used to cover up falsehood or to promote a self-preserving motive.
6. Idol worship. It is very common to hear the pastors boasting about how great the EN/VCF leaders have become.
7. The decision making process by the senior leaders speaks for itself. Why is EN/VCF littered with many financial scandals? “By their fruit you shall know them…”
While there are many genuine pastors and leaders in VCF, they are not the high-level leaders and they have been tainted by the awful cultural troubles that Maranatha1984 describes as “rotten foundations.”
What must Steve do? I’m sure he’s doing his best. But it may be a little too late. God does not renew until He sees genuine repentance. But He will test everything with fire. Closed-door repentance to a selected few is not repentance. Steve needs to re-examine and reform every customary standard that conflicts with biblical standards.
If there is no change in the Fruit, that’s a sign that there was no repentance. EN/VCF is not exempted from God’s judgment and “exposes” is a biblical instrument of judgment. EN/VCF needs to reforms unbiblical leadership, without exception or personal preference. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 9:14 pm: |
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my sister told me that Joey Bonifacio's son had an accident on 2004 years ago from playing basketball. he fell on his head. Anyway, I realized there were several SENIOR PASTORS in Victory Churches, their first born sons, died of traumatic injury to the head or died of menigitis. Some just fever, anything thats connected to the HEAD.
And it was only happening to the Senior pastors of these churches.This was on 2004.
Now, I think that was the same year that David Cartledge gave that prophesy to Jim lafoon and all the exposing going on here in the US.
I do believe that there is a spiritual connection to all of that. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1174
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 2:37 am: |
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Ariel marquez Brother ,Bernard Marquez kept saying that he can earn more from his business before than from being a pastor. He and his wife , used to be,were very firm about NOT WANTING TO BE IN FULLTIME when asked about considering it...people used to ask them why not and one of their reasons is the "meager pay" one gets from being in fulltime...then a major drought came into his business..it wasn't doing well and he couldn't get it up and running anymore...THAT IS WHEN HE DECIDED TO BECOME FULLTIME..His business was in BAD SHAPE already before he decided to go fulltime in alabang. Of course, Bernard found out that his brother had been getting 1 million pesost... when he probably found the potential income he could be making in becoming a pastor in alabang church and considering that his business was already doing bad, he all of a sudden decides to go fulltime..take note: his biz was doing bad when he decided to go fulltime...his business was in BAD SHAPE before he went fulltime....how convenient for him since his brother is the senior pastor of alabang church..both he and Ariel are being confronted with money issues now...and what is being done? nothing, sad to say... |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1178
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 4:52 am: |
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This message has been removed by FactNet per the request of the original poster, "ginger1".
(Message edited by dannydawg5 on August 10, 2006) |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 592
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.208.142
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 8:44 am: |
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God will deal with Elis sons who steal the offerings from Gods people! just wait and watch! |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 41
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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From “Wideawake”:
And since I was told some of the Philippine pastors are being OVERPAID . Some are 1 million pesos. While the rest of the staff are struggling. Its happening also in his own churches. So Rice and Phil, stealing and getting overpaid is OK with Steve Murrell
============================================
Dear “Wideawake,”
As one novelist namely Piers Anthony rightly said, “When one person makes an accusation, check to be sure he himself is not the guilty one. Sometimes it is those whose case is weak who make the most clamour.”
The word “I was told” is very weak evidence since even in the New Testament this practice of hearsay is really dividing the body of Christ. Even the apostle Paul himself had to straighten out some “I-was-told” style of practice,
“Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.” (2Ti 2:17-18)
Some false believers are spreading the news about the resurrection of the believers that had already taken place but in reality this is a lie. If you want to immediately divide the body of Christ then I would suggest that you be a gossiper and accuser. No wonder the Scripture points to the Father of lies as the accuser of the brethren also. (see, Rev. 12:10) Even the prophet Isaiah wants his accusers to face him, “He who vindicates me is near. Who then will bring charges against me? Let us face each other! Who is my accuser? Let him confront me!” (Isa 50:8) I fully suggest you follow the Scripture by talking to the person face to face. It is very unfortunate that I find people within the body of Christ (that is if they really are God’s people) accusing his brothers in the Lord. I was reminded of a religious cult that settles their personal issues internally (not posting it on the internet) because they don’t want to stumble other non-members. Wow! How come these people who are non-Christians follow such kind of principle and why don’t some people who are Christians (if they truly are) also do this practice?
If the enemy cannot find a hole in the morality of the pastor, the enemy will surely focus the money. My dear friend, even Billy Graham himself is continually being accused of many issues. He was accused of being overpaid. But praise God because he knows God alone will vindicate him and the ministry of Billy Graham Evangelistic Crusade continues to grow. Now, the question will be when the accuser and the pastor goes to heaven what will God say to the pastor as he faithfully took care of the flock, “Well done good and faithful servant… Come and share your master’s happiness.” But for the accuser… it’s for you think about. Remember, God knows how to bless his servant even with millions of pesos. Now, if he or they are bless with that amount, let’s leave them as to how they will use the money wisely. Let them be held accountable for it. After all, maybe the reason they are bless is because they are givers, right! So we could say that the million pesos that you are mentioning (granting that’s true for a second without conceding) does not even goes to their pocket but it is being use to bless other people. And since God promise in His word, “A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.” (Pro 11:25)
May the Lord bless you!
Justyn M. |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 43
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:57 pm: |
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Topic: Proper Exegesis
From “Wideawake”
It remind me of a story in the Bible. 2 Chronicles 35.
King Josiah is a righteous king before the Lord. He went into the battle. To fight his enemy. Unfortunately for him, The Lord spoke through his enemy. The person whom he does not trust.
The Lord can speak even to our own worst enemies, God can choose and used anybody, even our own worst enemy. Our job is to recognized HIS VOICE. It will be our own fault if we DO NOT RECOGNIZED HIS VOICE. As for King Josiah , he died not knowing that was the Lord's voice warning him.
===========================================
Dear Friend,
“But Neco sent messengers to him, saying, ‘What quarrel is there between you and me, O king of Judah? It is not you I am attacking at this time, but the house with which I am at war. God has told me to hurry; so stop opposing God, who is with me, or he will destroy you.’” (2Ch 35:21)
I admire your desire to interpret the Scripture but respected Bible commentators like Adam Clarke who have hermeneutically studied the Old Testament background stated,
“The Targum gives a curious turn to this and the following verse: ‘My idol commanded me to make haste; refrain therefore from me and my idol which is with me, that he betray thee not.’ When he heard him mention his idol, he would not go back; and he hearkened not unto the words of Necho, which he spake concerning his idol.” Here is the rabbinical excuse for the conduct of Josiah.”
A question was posted, “In 2 Chr 35:21, did God really command Pharaoh Neco to fight the Babylonians?” The Bible researcher responded, “Probably not, but this is a moot point. God could have intended Pharaoh Neco to fight the Babylonians and actually communicated with Pharaoh to do this. However, even if God had directly told Neco, would Neco have listened? Neco was set to defend Egypt with an attack on the Babylonians regardless of what he would have claimed to have heard from the God of Israel. Sennacherib made a similar statement, which was a lie, in 2 Kings 18:25.”
Therefore, it is not correct to assume that Yahweh is the one who spoke to the pagan enemy. Unless of course, the person who is quoting this is a pagan unbeliever. God bless you!
Justyn M.
(Message edited by justyn_m on August 11, 2006) |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:00 am: |
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Justyn M. Is that the best you can do ? Accused people of gossiping ? Pretty pathetic don't you think. Whats next bitterness ??
By the way, you guys , ALL the top EN leaders are known to start slander and gossip to all people who left. When we all left whats the gossip you guys started ?
1. they are deceived, don't talk to them.
2. They are led by the devil.
3. they are bitter.
4. Their family are going to hell because they left EN churches or
ministry.
5. They are bitter.
6. Their evidences are not credible.
You want to add more ?
By the way, Ariel marquez WAS CONFRONTED. Especially about hiring his brother. Ariel excuse is that they are part of the "leviticus order" so he can hire his own brother as an associate pastor. Steve Murrell was supposed to handle this, but guess what NOTHING HAPPENED.
So before you start accusing people of gossiping, you better look at yourself first, because I find you and your ministry, the apologetic website is full of hypocrisy.
As I told you before, your ministry LACK CREDIBILITY, You have sold your soul to EN ministry instead to God and His truth.
Does your back start hurting from bending down and kissing up their buttocks yet ?
My guess thats how you got your position in Victory. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:03 am: |
|
You and and the entire EN ministry are a BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES. You accused people of gossiping and yet Your own very leaders would start slandering and gossiping about people when they leave the church.
This is exactly what Jesus said about you and your ministry, FULL OF HYPOCRITES !! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:18 am: |
|
You should also shut down your website, Its pathetic. And you even call yourself christian, then you even question if Judas actually steals ? Just because they did not say that he still, they certainly wrote about it.
When they cannonized the scriptures, they specifically pick out the people who wrote it as credible witnessess. People who were there that witness Christ and what happened. Thats part of HISTORY.
And yet you question that ? Whats next ? John has dementia when he wrote the book of revelation ?
Or Jesus got had relationship with Mary Magdalene ? Or how about the book of Judas ? You should add that to your website.
You do not want to stumble unbelievers ? And yet you question if Judas actually steals ? You are a HYPOCRITE. Shut down your website. You are the one who would make an young believer stumble.
I remember EN leaders kept telling us that we have to dress up nice so not to stumble unbelievers or Not to talk about this and that because it will make a believer stumble. PLEEEASE , first of all what new believer ? Their own salary Would make anybody stumble, young believers and unbelievers.
Ariel marquez and his own brother Bernard just by their salary alone makes anybody stumble. You are just so BLIND. And you are worried about what the unbelievers and young believers think ???? That they might stumble ??? What were they teaching you ? Has Victory pastors over there dumb you guys down ? |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:34 am: |
|
Topic: Pastor’s Salary
From: “Ginger”
Based on the Philippine Victory Church Salary based, Senior Pastors are being paid at $1000 a month. But Ariel of Alabang church is being paid at 1 million pesos , then he hired his own brother Bernard to be paid at 900,000 pesos.
1 million pesos a year divided by 55 is $18,180 a year divided by 12, so that is roughly around $1500 a month.
I spoke to a few people who knows Ariel, I was told even from 20 years ago, Ariel is pretty aristocrat. My guess from a prominent family. And has not changed.
I know $1000 a month is not enough for a regular family, but if he has problem with that, he should get a civilian job and should not be a pastor. Then to even hire his own brother, is pretty bad. Both should quit and get a REAL JOB. And pass that job to those who are willing to lived sacrificially at $1000 a month.
Same thing with all the US EN pastors, if they do not like their salaries without defrauding people, GET A CIVILIAN JOB !
====================================
Dear “Ginger,”
Your statement is very exaggerated. It is as if you are talking with an evidence to back that up regarding Pastors Ariel and Bernard. There are a number of loopholes in your statement.
1. How did you know that Pastor Ariel is receiving 1 million pesos? Anybody (including Saddam Hussein) can say they have their evidence and yet they cannot even provide even one. Careful, that is a very subjective kind of evidence. I can also create a story and say you are being paid with a huge amount by someone who has an axe to grind with the Every Nation movement. I can create an article to inform the people that you spent most of your time on the cyberspace, taking your family for granted, because you are very much obsess in hurting other people in Every Nation emotionally since you are paid to that. But I won’t do that because I know that is very much subjective. Please cease from receiving hearsays and gossips. That will destroy you spiritually.
2. You also wrote, ” I spoke to a few people who knows Ariel, I was told even from 20 years ago, Ariel is pretty aristocrat. My guess from a prominent family. And has not changed.” The words “I spoke” and “I was told” in reality means “I heard a gossip” and that is very much subjective. The statement “I guess” is a wild imagination that aims to destroy a person.
3. You also mentioned, “Then to even hire his own brother, is pretty bad.” Excuse me my dear friend, but when did a VCF pastor started hiring people directly? For your information, there is an HRD that is in-charge for hiring church staff at VCF. If Pastor Bernard was accepted as kid’s pastor at VCF Alabang, it is not because Pastor Ariel approved it but the body of elders in VCF Philippines. Don’t you think that would be unethical if Pastor Ariel will approve the hiring of Pastor Bernard? Please cease from hearing gossips. Remember this verse from the book of Proverbs,
“A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.” (Pro 16:28)
You don't want to cause dissension and gossip right? Instead of saying “Get a civilian job” why not say “May God bless you and your ministry always!” That’s the right words to say. Very encouraging right?
Justyn M. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1184
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:42 am: |
|
Justyn M, You are such a coward. Why don't you go to Steve Murrell and asked him ? Because Steve Murrell KNOWS THIS and he is supposed to handle this current problem.
You do not want to go to Steve Murrell and asked him because you are a COWARD. I have told you time and time again to just walk down the hall and ask Steve, Steve himself will tell you that Ariel is currently getting paid at 1 million pesos. And it is the Asian EN Board, the Philippine pastor himself said that Senior pastors are getting paid at $1000 pesos. Ariel currently just surpassed that.
So before you start accusing people of "gossiping", maybe you should get some courage , instead of being a COWARD, GO ASK STEVE MURRELL. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1185
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:46 am: |
|
Justyn M, By the way, tell whoever your MASTER PASTOR to stop sending a baby christian like you here , because your tactics of accusing of people gossiping does not work here.
You guys have already have an enormous History of starting GOSSIP AND SLANDER AGAINST the People whom disagrees with you. It won't work, in fact, YOU YOURSELF HAVE STARTED SLANDERING against people here. YOU HYPOCRITE. |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 45
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:50 am: |
|
Topic: Hypocrisy
From: “Ginger”
You and and the entire EN ministry are a BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES. You accused people of gossiping and yet Your own very leaders would start slandering and gossiping about people when they leave the church.
This is exactly what Jesus said about you and your ministry, FULL OF HYPOCRITES !!
=========================================
Dear Friend,
Jesus can say that word because He is God and He knows the heart of those Pharisees. Are you Jesus who knows the heart of a man? Are you “God” who can read the heart of every minister at Every Nation? Please answer these questions directly. I need to know. People here in this forum need to know if “Ginger” is “God” who can directly say, “You hypocrites.” (see, Matt 7:5; Luk 6:42)
I pray that you learn to forgive your brothers if ever offended you by applying the very words of Jesus Himself when He said, “Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.” (Mat 18:21-22)
“Ginger” my friend, there is still time to do this. Remember, unforgiveness is one reason why people in this earth continues to suffer mentally, emotionally, and even physically. I suggest that you talk to the Lord right now and instead of pouring your sentiments here on the internet forum why not pour it all to Jesus. I know He can help you. May God bless you!
Justyn M. |
j2theperson
Intermediate Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 233
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:16 am: |
|
Justyn, your post to WideAwake is filled with illogic and outright non sequiturs.
quote:The word “I was told” is very weak evidence since even in the New Testament this practice of hearsay is really dividing the body of Christ. Even the apostle Paul himself had to straighten out some “I-was-told” style of practice,
“Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.” (2Ti 2:17-18)
Firstly, elsewhere on this thread the claims were more forcefully made. Ginger came out and stated that Ariel Marquez of Alabang church is being paid 1 million pesos and that he hired his brother Bernard who is being paid 900,000 pesos. You have names and you have amounts. If the claim is false it should be easy enough for you to refute.
Secondly, the bible verse you quote has absolutely nothing to do with gossip and accusation. Rather, it involves false teaching. Nowhere does Paul accuse Hymenaeus and Philetus of gossiping. Rather, he states that they have "wandered away from the truth", began to teach false things, and, as a result, destroyed some people's faith. (To read the entire passage click here)
quote:Some false believers are spreading the news about the resurrection of the believers that had already taken place but in reality this is a lie.
It is one thing to preach false doctrine--as Hymenaeus and Philetus did. It is quite another thing to truthfully state the amount of money a pastor is being paid.
quote: If you want to immediately divide the body of Christ then I would suggest that you be a gossiper and accuser.
This is a leading statement. You seem to by implying that because the body of Christ is being divided that WideAwake must be engaging in gossip and accusation. That is not necessarily true. A factual statement has been made on this board (i.e. Ariel Marquez of Alabang church is getting paid 1,000,000 pesos). It's a report of fact. How on earth could that possibly be construed as being gossip? If it's wrong disprove it.
You seem to fault WideAwake for causing division. But there are two sides to every rift. Can not Every Nation be falted for the division that has taken place? If WideAwake's and Ginger's statement is indeed factual but the mere mention of it has caused the body of Christ to be "divided" then does that not bring up the question of "Why"? What is so wrong with Every Nation's mindset that the simple act of reporting the salary of one of its pastors causes "division in the body of Christ"?
(Message edited by j2theperson on August 11, 2006) |
j2theperson
Intermediate Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 234
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:18 am: |
|
quote:No wonder the Scripture points to the Father of lies as the accuser of the brethren also. (see, Rev. 12:10)
Here's a link to the entire chapter for anyone who wants to read it.
Wow. If I read you correctly, you're implying that WideAwake is acting in a Satanic manner. [begin sarcasm here]Let's just forget about reading scripture in context. Let's not bother to try to figure out what exactly is going on in this prophetic, apocolyptic vision St. John had. Let's not try to figure out what sort of accusation Satan was engaging in. Instead, let's just pull a scary sounding verse out of context and use it as a way to frighten people into not reporting factual truth.[/end sarcasm]
quote:Even the prophet Isaiah wants his accusers to face him, “He who vindicates me is near. Who then will bring charges against me? Let us face each other! Who is my accuser? Let him confront me!” (Isa 50:8)
Funny, if you read the entire chapter you will see that Isaiah was speaking out against a nation that had turned its back on God and that he was being persecuted for speaking the truth. I would, therefore, think that verse applies more to WideAwake than to Every Nation.
quote:I fully suggest you follow the Scripture by talking to the person face to face.
As has been discussed several times before on this board, it is impossible to confront EN leaders in the manner you want us to confront them. They refuse to meet with people. They push us and our complaints aside. They claim that we're bitter and rebellious, that we've fallen away from Christ, that we're crazy, that we don't know what we're talking about.
quote:It is very unfortunate that I find people within the body of Christ (that is if they really are God’s people) accusing his brothers in the Lord.
Instead of making yet another not-so-subtle dig at WideAwake's status as a Christian why don't you just respond to his claim that Ariel Marquez is being paid 1,000,000 peso?
You seem to be implying that because WideAwake and Ariel are "brothers in the lord" that WideAwake should not be allowed to report a fact. Why is that? Either Ariel is making 1,000,000 pesos or he isn't. If he is and that fact causes division in the body of Christ I would think the fault was Ariel's for taking that 1,000,000 pesos, not Ginger's and WideAwakes for merely stating what was happening.
(Message edited by j2theperson on August 11, 2006) |
j2theperson
Intermediate Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 235
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:19 am: |
|
quote:I was reminded of a religious cult that settles their personal issues internally (not posting it on the internet) because they don’t want to stumble other non-members. Wow! How come these people who are non-Christians follow such kind of principle and why don’t some people who are Christians (if they truly are) also do this practice?
So, let me get this straight….You want WideAwake to start engaging in a particular practice of a non-Christian religious cult.
Rather than praising the wackos for engaging in a particular practice you think is good, maybe you should start worrying that you are commending a practice in which cultic nutjobs are engaging.
quote:If the enemy cannot find a hole in the morality of the pastor, the enemy will surely focus the money. My dear friend, even Billy Graham himself is continually being accused of many issues. He was accused of being overpaid. But praise God because he knows God alone will vindicate him and the ministry of Billy Graham Evangelistic Crusade continues to grow.
Billy Graham has absolutely nothing to do with the disagreement at hand. The subject is Ariel Marquez and his 1,000,000 peso salary. Billy Graham might deserve his large salary, but that does not mean Ariel Marquez deserves his. Billy Graham might be a godly man, that does not necessarily mean Ariel Marquez is also. Billy Graham and Billy Graham's ministry does not in any way shape or form affect Ariel Marquez and Ariel Marquez' ministry.
quote:Now, the question will be when the accuser and the pastor goes to heaven what will God say to the pastor as he faithfully took care of the flock, “Well done good and faithful servant… Come and share your master’s happiness.” But for the accuser… it’s for you think about.
You're just engaging in idle speculation while also making a vague threat toward WideAwake. You don't know how God is going to respond. I am fairly certain, however, that He is not going to punish WideAwake or Ginger for merely reporting the fact of Ariel Marquez's salary. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1186
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:20 am: |
|
Ah yes, I totally forgot list no. 7 Unforgiveness.
Justyn M, you are pathetic. But thanks for reminding me.
Jesus said We need to be the light of the World,
if anything are light then it needed to be in the LIGHT. Anything that is in secret that , everybody has to question. Anything that is in the dark, there is something wrong.
The finances of EN is always in the dark, if there is nothing wrong with the EN finances then why kept it in the dark ? Why not full disclosure ? how about Ariel's and BErnard's Salary ? why did they kept it in secret, apparently a lot of the church members in Alabang starting to know about it and Ariel still tries to keep it in secret. Hey , if there is nothing wrong with getting paid 1 million pesos why does he tries so hard to keep it a secret even his brothers salary ?
Did not Steve Murrell promised full disclosure ? If nothing is wrong why he back out of his promise ?
What Steve Murrell and the Asian EN Board said 3 months ago to me, NOW, everything, I mean everything has turned opposite. No more full disclosure, even though they admit of misuse of finances, promise of returning the money, NOW, they refused to return the money and no more full disclosure.
If there is nothing wrong why kept it a secret ? |
j2theperson
Intermediate Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 236
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:20 am: |
|
quote:Remember, God knows how to bless his servant even with millions of pesos.
Just because God knows how to bless his servants does not mean that Ariel Marquez's 1,000,000 salary is a blessing from God.
quote:Now, if he or they are bless with that amount, let’s leave them as to how they will use the money wisely. Let them be held accountable for it.
That is the whole point of bringing this subject up in the first place. There are people on this board who do not believe that the money is being used wisely or that he is being held accountable.
quote:After all, maybe the reason they are bless is because they are givers, right!
Is Ariel Marquez a giver? If he is it should be easy enough to assertain.
quote:So we could say that the million pesos that you are mentioning (granting that’s true for a second without conceding) does not even goes to their pocket but it is being use to bless other people. And since God promise in His word, “A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.” (Pro 11:25)
More idle speculation. Just because Ariel Marquez has a 1,000,000 peso salary does not mean it was God given and it does not mean that he is blessing people.
quote: May the Lord bless you!
[begin sarcasm]Hopefully the same way he's blessed Ariel Marquez[/end sarcasm]
And remember, as Piers Anthony once said: “When one person makes an accusation, check to be sure he himself is not the guilty one. Sometimes it is those whose case is weak who make the most clamour.”
(Message edited by j2theperson on August 11, 2006) |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 599
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:37 am: |
|
LOL
Justin, you are pressing buttons here. I have been fulltime pastor for 5 years within EN and have seen people and money abuse first hand. there is nothing to defend about it.´and it is not gossiping when the anused stand up and speak out against this sons of Eli.
like J2 said: only because someone gets a lot of money doesnt mean that he is blessed by God! even saddam hussein, whom you mentioned, had a lot of money.
and no, we all do not agree that a pastor ONLY is accountable to God. This thinking opens the door for dictatorial church gouvernment. and its not biblical. the "order of levi" like it was mentioned here is such a weak and foolish argument. the ministry in the New Covenant doesnt have the same meaning like the temple ministry in the old covenant. its not a ministry of mediation, but a ministry of equiping the saints. nothing more. but to take this picture, because you mentioned it: do you know that God had quite strong rules for the OT priests? and that he has strong rules for an NT elder? read timothy!
GREED is a DISQUALIFICATION argument for an elder!
elders who take too much miney, for whatever reason, are to hold accountable BY THE CHURCH!
and the whole "accuser" blabla is not based on biblical teaching on church gouvernment, but a very, very weak argument to shut up critisizm!
i hope ginger will NEVER Stop to talk up against unrightousness! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 4:00 am: |
|
Robert to the EN leaders, speaking against UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, including the Philippine Victory church is called Gossip and Slander.
I strongly believe labeling people of "bitterness" or "unforgiveness" has been OVER USED already . It does not work any longer, that "magic" word has lost its *touch*.
We have a new word now for Ariel and Bernard and even for the EN Leaders. FRAUD, EMBEZZLEMENT, MISUSE OF FUNDS , STEALING , LIES. And there is more COWARDS , ABUSE, CONTROL, INSECURE. Now these new words for the EN Leaders and the Philippine top leaders, including Ariel and Bernard are new words to them so far has NOT LOST ITS *Touch*.
What I posted 2 - 3 years ago, is still stands strong. And has not changed.
While EN leaders , including the Philippine Leadership, whatever they say 3 months ago, are not the same. Even whatever they said 3 years ago, has kept revolving and changing again and again and again. You truly do not know where they stand.
Remember the first reason why they change their name from MSI to EN ? First it was God is changing them from Abram to Abraham and now they said its because there is another ministry that has the same name as them.
My stand was the reason why they change is because of Tom Siratnak post on Rick Ross website and the bethel lawsuit. So far I have NOT changed my stand on that since I posted it 2 -3 years ago.
how about the reason why Greg Ball left ? First they said that Greg ball left with their blessings, NOW it change to he just left and because partly problem is the leadership, miscommunication.
My stand has always been, Greg Ball left and none of the EN leaders knew about it. First news broke out was here on factnet. AND the reason why he left was because his ministry was STOLEN FROM HIM by Phil and Rice. I have NOT changed that statement and WILL NOT changed it.
How about Phil Bonasso stealing , taking the $40,000 unaccounted for.And the misuse of funds. Now, its the secretary's fault, she did not put it in the expense sheet. Just wondering, knowing Phil Bonasso who micro manage everything, who is also the Chief Financial Officer, simply "forgot to put it in the expense sheet ?" Thats his job to micro manage the finances. And he simply forgot ?
Just wondering do they think that people are that stupid ?
My stand has not changed, Phil Bonasso is a THIEF, who stole from that small church and I strongly believe he stolen money from the Mission funds in the form of salaries.
Last year, communique went out, first they said they can't balance the books and Rice and Phil are overpaid. NOW, The word is out that THE books are fine and its clean.
As I said, EN Leaders words have continually evolved and changed. SO far, I have not changed. just wondering who should these people in EN believe ?
Me or the EN leaders ? I believe people should get sick and tired of evolving lies by the EN leaders and the Philippine leadership.
I told the Asian EN board, these people like Rice and Phil cannot pay it back, they kept insisting that they will pay it back even if they should sell their homes. Those were the exact words given to me. So now , guess what ? EN LEaders refused to pay it back. AND so far what I said , it is still standing strong.
and not only that, they LIED to me. heck, I should have caught on from the beginning, they lied to you, they surely will lie to me. |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 46
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:27 am: |
|
Topic: Response to “J2theperson,”
Please refer to his post on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:16 am
Dear “J2theperson,”
My post to “Wideawake” are very much related. There is nothing truthful to that one million peso accusation (P1 million). First of all, you stated “If the claim is false it should be easy enough for you to refute.” The key word there is “claim.” A claim can be stated by anybody but we need ample references and evidences for his claim to be valid. This is why the Encarta Dictionary defined “claim” as “maintain something is true: to say, without proof or evidence, that something is true.” With regard to Hymenaeus and Philetus, my focus there is the word “saying” (Gk. lego) which they are gossiping through their preaching that the resurrection has taken place but in reality it did not. Now, their gossip in the form of preaching will be heard by many people in the Ancient Near East and will spread to many believers. Whether or not we talk about doctrine the point here is there was a gossip that took place and it is wrong. This is why the apostle said, “Their teaching will spread like gangrene.” Every form of gossip spreads, and if it reaches any person, it can kill them.
You also stated, “A factual statement has been made on this board (i.e. Ariel Marquez of Alabang church is getting paid 1,000,000 pesos). It's a report of fact. How on earth could that possibly be construed as being gossip? If it's wrong disprove it.” Excuse me sir, but posting statements on this forum thread must be subject to investigation and evidence. I can post also in this forum that Ferdinand Marcos is still alive and he is hiding somewhere Hawaii and that will not prove truthful. I hope you get my point.
You concluded, “What is so wrong with Every Nation's mindset that the simple act of reporting the salary of one of its pastors causes ‘division in the body of Christ?’” My friend, is it ethical to report (or post) on the internet for the “whole world” about how much you are receiving monthly or how much a pastor is receiving from his supporter? Why don’t you email even the most prominent conservative preachers like Dr. Charles Swindoll, Dr. Charles Stanley, and Dr. John Macarthur and ask their opinion about this? You really have to study more on church ethics my friend. God bless!
Justyn M. |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 47
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:42 am: |
|
Topic: Accountability
From: Robert_Unknown
"We all do not agree that a pastor ONLY is accountable to God."
==========================================
Dear Friend,
Can you please support your statement with God's word? It's very easy to put forth our own claims. My supporting verse is,
"So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." (Rom 14:12-13)
What I know from the Scripture is that "each of us" in other words "individually" we will be held accountable to God. I believe this is still in the context of accountability. My friend, "stop passing judgment" but "let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification." (Rom 14:19)
God bless you!
Justyn M. |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:50 am: |
|
Topic: Accusation
From: "Ginger"
"We have a new word now for Ariel and Bernard.... FRAUD, EMBEZZLEMENT, MISUSE OF FUNDS , STEALING , LIES. And there is more COWARDS , ABUSE, CONTROL, INSECURE. Now these new words for the EN Leaders and the Philippine top leaders, including Ariel and Bernard are new words to them so far has NOT LOST ITS *Touch*."
======================================
Dear "Ginger,"
Only two words for you... "witnesses please!"
"Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses." (1Ti 5:19)
Justyn M. |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 600
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.214.18
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:24 am: |
|
"My friend, is it ethical to report (or post) on the internet for the “whole world” about how much you are receiving monthly or how much a pastor is receiving from his supporter? Why don’t you email even the most prominent conservative preachers like Dr. Charles Swindoll, Dr. Charles Stanley, and Dr. John Macarthur and ask their opinion about this? You really have to study more on church ethics my friend. "
church ethics is not a one way street, but has also to be aplied by the men/ women in ministry. so if they behave unethicaly by taking money from funds that are dedicated to missions into their own pockets, to puzzle together salaries up to 800K/year from different streams of income, and then cover it or ly about it - would you not agree that this is unethical and disrespectfull towards the people who give this money?
you asked for scriptures? here we go:
1.Tim.5,19.20
1.Tim.3,1-7
someone who is greedy is NOT qualified for ministry in the church.
"What I know from the Scripture is that "each of us" in other words "individually" we will be held accountable to God."
Thats true! But the church has also to watch that there are not the wrong people in leadership.
its like in state gouvernment - God will deal with the murderer and the thief personaly one day. but gouvernment has to protect the citicens from crime and abuse.
there is no way, that a minister of the church has the right to take what he wants and not beeing held accountable FROM the church for it! |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 49
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:49 am: |
|
Topic: Funds
From: Robert_Unknown
Church ethics is not a one way street, but has also to be aplied by the men/ women in ministry. so if they behave unethicaly by taking money from funds that are dedicated to missions into their own pockets, to puzzle together salaries up to 800K/year from different streams of income, and then cover it or ly about it - would you not agree that this is unethical and disrespectfull towards the people who give this money?
==============================
Dear Friend,
Now that again is an accusation. Are you a witness? Do you have witnesses? Do you have evidence? Where are you when the "stealing" happened? Are you a member of that local church? Were you able to hear this only in the form of a gossip? My friend, it's very easy to point a finger at somebody, it's another thing to face the person involve and prove what your saying are true.
God bless you!
Justyn M. |
justyn_m
Junior Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:56 am: |
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Topic: Accountability
From: Robert_Unknown
Thats true! But the church has also to watch that there are not the wrong people in leadership. its like in state gouvernment - God will deal with the murderer and the thief personaly one day. but gouvernment has to protect the citicens from crime and abuse.
======================================
Dear Friend,
If the whole church is not expelling their very own local pastors then why are you so much eager to crucify the poor pastors on the cross as if you are part of that local church? Why don't you go ahead and watch your own local pastor and leave the watching of the pastors in some churches hands? Are you the Holy Spirit who guides the church? Why don't you let the Holy Spirit move on the local churches and do His own part? God bless!
Justyn M. |
miltietoast
Advanced Member
Username: miltietoast
Post Number: 575
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 24.159.19.127
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:57 am: |
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dear friend justyn m --my wife calls me sweet pea with a soft syruppy voice when she is wanting to make a point,congressmen call their opponents "the distinguished gentlemen across the isle" So sweet pea how are you today?Most of the posters on this site have known these men personally for years. Interesting observation about law,witnesses,facts etc.In US law it is nearly impossible to convict in court especially someone who is willing to take an oath and ie,lie ,lie.Example:would you want your 18 year old daughter interning for Bill Clinton? He is an innocent man and if you told your daughter don't work for that man, would you be judging or gossipping when you told her why?My personal experience with the founders of EN repeatedly show a pattern of abuse of the very sheep they claim to be serving(serving? that is a good one --more like a stud bull servicing a heifer--be blessed miss,that will be $50,000)I have no choice but to declare and warn others ,"beware of wolves in sheep's clothing" I have a 30 year perspective and and see a bloody trail of wounded and slaughtered sheep wherever these men go.I never liked Jesus's words of sending us out like sheep to be slaughtered. Little did I realize at first, that it could come from within the folds ranks.Also did not realize that a favorite ploy of wolves in sheep clothing is to use some sheep as their cover.Those sheep yell from the mountaintops they are not wolves,you do not have any eye witnesses or facts(the witnesses "sheep" are all dead, run off, slandered, and maligned, "like the mafia")Jesus asked the adultress ,"Woman where are your accusers?" If we asked the same thing of the EN leaders they would say," There are none Master we have killed and run them off." Like the jews in prison camp that sold their souls to the Nazi's to stay alive so they could bury their fallen brethren so you too dear young sweet pea of a friend are providing cover for wolves.
God bless you!
mild mannered miltie |
dazzla
New member
Username: dazzla
Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 202.156.2.36
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:44 am: |
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Justyn,
Perhaps you can help clarify something I heard about the Alabang church.
A senior female leader left EN Alabang recently because she had met a guy who is a non Christian. Her move away from the church shocked everyone but her reasons were simply that EN would not accept this situation having witnessed the pressure other members of the same church put on girls who were dating non-christians or christians who were not in EN.
I was told this by a friend who is cell leader in Alabang. I wish not to spread further "chismis" hence asking if this is true.
I know pastors bernard and ariel and I can't help but feel saddened to read this as Bernard, in particular, was a key influence in me finding Christ and was (for many years) and hopefully still is a wonderful Youth Pastor. I am neither defending or supporting, just expressing personal sadness to see that the evils of money can eat at that the best of christians, should the information Ginger sourced be correct. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1188
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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Justyn , You are not looking for Witness, You are looking for somebody whom your Master Pastor wants to Crucify. You want the names of people that you want to PERSECUTE. Sorry, your wished won't be granted. If you want witness, GO TO STEVE MURRELL. ASK HIM he knows this. But since you are a COWARD , too bad. Thats your problem.
Ariel also has Misuse some Funds. He is no better than Phil Bonasso . My suggestion for him, HE NEEDS TO STEP DOWN AND GET A JOB ! |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 601
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.221.103
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:05 am: |
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"If the whole church is not expelling their very own local pastors then why are you so much eager to crucify the poor pastors on the cross as if you are part of that local church? "
Justyn.
I have witnessed what this "other pastors" have done to His People! If this "other pastors" would do their job, and pastor their flock, i wouldnt care so much as i do. but they travel around, come into our nations, destroy our churches, abuse our finances (yes - OUR finances. the money WE tithe to THEM!). so it is of MY business! specially because my life nearly got destroyed because i made a decision FOR them, against the will of my church! and do you know one thing? even despite the fact that i was loyal and had to bleed for it this guys didnt care at all!
EN is just a money-maschine! a SCAM for some people. and in this respect i DO and i WILL care.
I will stand up and warn others! and i will stand up and tell people what THEY are doing and what they are covering up! |
matt_hatter
Advanced Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 878
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.3
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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"Are you the Holy Spirit who guides the church?"
Dear Friend;
The Holy Spirit is the guide, in fact, He is such a good guide, his eye sight is top notch. He is a spiritual ophhalmologist who I would recommend to you for an immediate appointment. God Bless!
Matt |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 602
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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Justyn.
I think we are talking about different situations.
I am not talking about the philipine situation, but about the broader situation in EN.
as a member and pastor of EN i have the RIGHT to know what happens to the tithes that i transfer to the international ministry from my churches income. however NO responsabilty has been shown towards the tithers. No transparency has been exercised. transparency THEY demand from us has NOT been shown by them selves.
in fact my family had to suffer financially because I was stupid enough to tithe to EN, despite all the doubts that i had, just to be faithfull and loyal. loyal to men who did not show any loyality to me and to my wife and children.
i have NEVER been asked if my church wants to get merged with EN. decisions have been made without our knowledge.
however, and despite of this I have shown enough good faith into this men. they NEVER proofed to us that they are apostles. they NEVER showed us love and mercy. they NEVER steped in and helped us when our world broke appart and when we needed "family" around us.
instead of fullfilling their duty as sheperds and brothers they took the "francise-fees" from my church (and others), without beeing thankfull, and pushed it right into the pockets of some chosen! They took advantage of the situation, discredided us and didnt even TALK to us or respond on emails. we have been labeled "fallout", just because we entered problems. problems which we would NOT have entered without EN. I stood firm for THEM, and my church didnt want to be part of EN. But they dont appreciate this. They dont care for people who build up churches from scratch. They have other priorities on their agenda. so why the heck do they call themselves "apostles" and "sheperds" if they dont want to do the job of a sheperd?
i do hope and i do pray, that one day the FBI or another authority will start to investigate what has happened and what is happening to money that people and churches dedicate to non-profit organisations like EN or into missions!
but in the meanwhile, i will testify about the things that i had to witness! and people like you will not stop me with manipulation language. THIS games dont work on me anylonger!
you are pressing some buttons here, mate, and I dont mean this personal. But people who are posting here on this forum went through hell, because iresponsible and greedy people abused them for their dirty scam which they camouflaged as "church movement".
(Message edited by robert_unknown on August 11, 2006) |
gilligan
New member
Username: gilligan
Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 85.195.119.22
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:02 pm: |
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This is one classic example of a deep-rooted cultural problem of VCF. Even if associate pastors, like justynm are given evidence, they are in no real position to make any effective changes (this also explains why the average congregation members are also not in any position to make effective changes). The farthest they can go, in cases of moral or ministry failures of a more senior pastor, is that they have brought it to the attention of their leaders (strictly in private) and that the rest is up to God. And even if the problems continue, then they have no more obligations. Believe it or not, the standard of leadership in VCF is almost identical to a “barkada” system (the brotherhood expectations among close friends in a social group – what the bible describes as “following the crowd”), instead of a ministry-unto-God type of priority.
Another deep-rooted cultural problem of VCF is that everyone is trained to believe that when you serve the pastor you are literally serving God. And disagreeing with the pastor is equivalent to disagreeing with God. Talk about bondage? Poor members…
If you want to see real effective change in VCF, one of the most effective methods is to influence the big tithers and givers. The leaders are very sensitive and open to their opinions. They have very “big” voices in the movement. ALL of the leaders refrain from seriously offending the big givers.
Justynm does not determine the culture. Multitudes are victims of the culture, which includes all the pastors. |
matt_hatter
Advanced Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 882
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.3
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:47 pm: |
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Dear Friend:
Read Gilligan's and Roberts' posts 2-3 times, your eye appointment awaits. |
coppertree
Advanced Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 661
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.147.185.154
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:55 pm: |
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Yes Gilligan, Robert and Ginger ,well said. It is the way of EN. I have said what Justyn has said here; I was in his position. Through others prayers and reaching out to me with facts; I don't know where I would be. It did take awhile to sink in, and then came the Sprit. I am so glad that I got to see, and hear.
Thanks Matt, one can get their eyes healed.} |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1191
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:14 pm: |
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Justyn M, Ariel and Bernard would not have been crucified if they open up and tell everybody about his salary and misuse of funds.
If there is nothing wrong with his salary and the misuse of funds why hide it. As I said before everything need to come to light, if its NOT in the Light, then something is Wrong, If things needed to be hidden ,there is DEFINITELY SOMETHING IS WRONG.
If you want to know about witnesses, GO TO STEVE MURRELL AND ASK. He was supposed to handle this problem and DID NOT. HE is very AWARE of it.
What Ariel did, is illegal . Fraud. He needs to STEP DOWN. And a lot of the top leadership there KNOWS about what Ariel did. What the sad part is that NOTHING IS BEING DONE. As Giligan said, its the "barkada" system, over here we call it the MAFIA system.
GO ASK STEVE MURRELL. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 398
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:32 pm: |
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Thanks to all of you that have hearts to understand those of us that have been through it. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1192
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:58 pm: |
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Ariel has cease to become a Pastor of Alabang church (spiritually) , Once he started defrauding the members of his own church. He should step down. |
cupatea
Member
Username: cupatea
Post Number: 51
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 202.134.253.21
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:06 am: |
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To all those involved in this discourse - what ever your point of view and what ever the actual truth, calling other names doesn't help anyone. Rather it lowers the standard of discourse to a gutter level. One of the disturbing trends on these threads is to attack anyone disagrees with our particular personal point of view especially if they are pro-EN (defenders of the faith  so to speak). Above the belt please people. |
justyn_m
Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 51
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:16 am: |
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Topic: “Obey Your Leaders” What Does It Really Mean
Text: Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
Dear friends, the author of Hebrews said, obey your leaders and submit to their authority.” Why? Is it because he lives in a meager salary? Is it because he and his family only live in a two-bedroom house? Is it because he does not drive a brand new model car? Is it because he does not offend people like you emotionally? Is it because he is not getting the privilege or the benefits of his church? Is it because he always agrees with your opinions? Is it because of these things or is it because “they keep watch over you as men who must give an account?”
To all FactNet posters here on this thread, may I ask you another question? Why do you obey your leaders in your very own local churches? Maybe some of you will say, “Well it’s because he is living a moral life?” while others might say “I obey my leaders because he only receives $400 USD per month. Every Christian knows that the requirement for a pastor is found in Titus 1:6 which is already given,
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
Now if that pastor has undergone discipline and restoration then the church must give him another chance to serve them. Let us not make it difficult for our brothers to come back. Remember, even the apostle Peter was reinstated by Jesus Himself after the former denied him three times.
If you feel like you can’t obey and submit to your present leaders then I suggest that you leave your church and look for a suitable church for you. Why stay in that church when you feel like you are being use only to cause dissension and strife. People who choose to stay in that church and continue to be in the business of criticizing and accusing their pastor are no longer doing the works of God but of the enemy. Remember, you are not the “savior” of that local church it is Christ alone who can deliver his people from manipulative, authoritative, and even abusive leaders. After voicing out your concern then leave everything in the hands of God. Don’t wrestle your way. God bless!
Justyn M. |
matt_hatter
Advanced Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 889
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.165.149
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:45 am: |
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Above the belt please people.
Cup, I would be willing to go below the belt, in the gutter, whatever it takes to deliver Justyn from the the falacy of this cruel religion he is in. THEY dragged so many in the gutter, hit below the belt, it is time to fight back in like manner. I am unconcerned how EN views my methods, as I would be willing to beat the EN out of him to save him.
Read the above post by Justyn. It is full of the nonsense aboout the infalability of the local pastor. Our walk boils down to our ability to obey and submit to our MASTER, not our pastor! The whole organization is so man centered and this deadly philosophy runs through their beliefs. They will take Heb 13:17 and run wild with it.
Cup, I do appreciate your point of view, I really do, and see that your heart is towards God! But as Miltie so aptly stated, the "bloody trail" or as I have put it, the "trail of body parts and human debris" indicate that their brutal methods may need to be attacked in a like manner. Maybe we are attacking the methods instead of the messenger. If that is the case, then--- play nice? Don't think so.
Justyn, get out, run, as fast as you can. If not now, it will be later, and you will wonder why you wasted so many years of my life! Take it from someone who was a "minister" in the system!
Matt |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:45 am: |
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Justyn M why are you so defensive and gung ho of protecting these leaders ? the reason why we all left was because of legalism, abuse , control , MISUSE OF FUNDS, Lies Frauds etc. now, it is OUR JOB also to protect our brothers and sisters in Christ. We after all are our Brother's keeper.
If we see a ditch, isn't it our job to warn others ? Instead, you are so gung ho about shutting people up. Do you think it would work ? Why do you think Paul did not shut up when he warned and confronted Peter ? So are you telling Paul to shut up ? Instead Paul wrote about what Peter did. And for the whole world to read it, Paul EXPOSES Peter.
Those people that you are protecting Has STOP BEING A SHEPHERD, MINISTER AND A PASTOR ONCE they cross the line of Abuse, Control, Legalism, MISUSE of FUNDS, DEFRAUDING THE FLOCKS etc.
So the obedience to the leaders DOES NOT WORK HERE ANY LONGER. They have disqualified themselves .
ARIEL MARQUEZ and His BRother Bernard Marquez SHOULD STEP DOWN from their Position. For FRAUD.
(Message edited by ginger1 on August 12, 2006) |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 607
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 2:27 am: |
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1:Tim.5,17ff
17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[b] and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
the elders that get exposed here are NOT WORKING WELL.
the elders that are exposed here are exposed BECAUSE THEY SIN (theft, greed, abuse...)
the elders that are exposed here are exposed on the base of TWO OR MORE WITTNESSES.
if it would be possible to deal with this in church it would be better. unfortunatley it IS NOT POSSIBLE. MANY of us TRIED to talk in the hidden WITH THEM PERSONALLY. they did not listen, but instead they lied about us. they took advantage of us. the defrauded us of thousands of dollars to live a live in luxury. they used and abused us to build THEIR little kongdoms (and not Gods kingdom).
(Message edited by robert_unknown on August 12, 2006) |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 608
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 2:38 am: |
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1 Timothy 3
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. |
forword
Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.166.80.170
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 2:42 am: |
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Justyn, this board is full of witnesses...
...and you are not my friend. |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 610
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 3:14 am: |
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its up to the elder to proof himself respectable, by showing integrity and morality.
if the elder is not respected on the base of his integrity (and not on base of his position), than he has NO RIGHT to demand respect from the church members! its easy as this.
Nasso wants to be respected? Than he should stop his idiotic intimidation-psycho-games and start LIVING moral and integer!
The leaders in Asia want to be respected? why do they trade their integrity and respect against some bucks?
Steve Murrel wants to gain respesct and trust? I believe he really has a good heart. But he will not have it easy when he doesnt proof his integrity by dealing properly with the issues in EN. |
justyn_m
Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 54
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 5:28 am: |
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From: "Matt_Hatter"
Above the belt please people.
Cup, I would be willing to go below the belt, in the gutter, whatever it takes to deliver Justyn from the the falacy of this cruel religion he is in. THEY dragged so many in the gutter, hit below the belt, it is time to fight back in like manner. I am unconcerned how EN views my methods, as I would be willing to beat the EN out of him to save him.
Read the above post by Justyn. It is full of the nonsense aboout the infalability of the local pastor. Our walk boils down to our ability to obey and submit to our MASTER, not our pastor! The whole organization is so man centered and this deadly philosophy runs through their beliefs. They will take Heb 13:17 and run wild with it.
====================================
Dear Friend,
Why don't you try to exegete the verse yourself. I will wait for your response. God bless!
Justyn M. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 5:39 am: |
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WE HAVE BEEN PRAYING already and God has been answering our prayers.EN/Victory movementis being exposed.The house is crumbling.There are cracks already brother.So, keep praying too.My heart goes out to the ordinary members |
dazzla
New member
Username: dazzla
Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 202.156.2.36
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:30 am: |
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Justyn...
You quote : "Text: Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
Sorry but until I understand what "...must give account" means I will submit to no man. God only.
I learned this lesson when I looked around me and saw men and women making "disciples" of others who were clearly not ready to do so.
People who are so sincere in the faith but acting under a mans instruction that God requires you to be a leader or a champion.
Justyn.... I urge with all grace intended to look around you, look at the good friends you no doubt have who are earnestly trying to become "Lords" and "Disciplers" as EN believes is the calling for all Christians.
Look around you and ask from the deepest point of your heart is it right to expect submission to those same people.
It is not ungodly to question those around you.
I pray for you and those who seem to feel it necessary to be blinded by man in order to follow christ. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:59 am: |
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mdillon--
“Lord, I pray for the EN leaders. Since I do not know all of them, I will pray for the few I do. I pray that You will have mercy on their lives as some of them are in danger right now of losing their entire families because of adulterous affairs and financial embezzlement of Your sheep’s money. Help them find their way back to You, even if they lose everything precious to them in this life, they will at least have You for eternity. I pray for those that have strayed from their first love of following You and have been co-opted by an antichrist gospel because of delusional greed, even though You promised to turn such over to their own delusion, I pray Lord you have mercy. Help them untangle their minds from their own version of “ministry” that in truth is idolatry and when their false world of “ministry” fails them please give them a job where they can learn to work and serve again. Give them grace, Lord, when they understand that it is Obscurity that they fear the most and the place You are calling them so they will know You once again. Ease their heart, dear Lord, when You show them Your true self, the suffering, the pain, loving the unlovable…this is what scares them the most because they stand the chance of losing all of their status and worldly goods just to see You for who You really are.
THANK YOU LORD FOR FACTNET for many eyes are being opened since many here are finding You again and being healed....
We lift them up in Jesus name----------amen”
WE ALL AGREE IN JESUS' MIGHTY NAME... |
matt_hatter
Advanced Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 893
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.165.149
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 9:03 am: |
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"Why don't you try to exegete the verse yourself. I will wait for your response. God bless!"
I would, but Robert (610) and Dazzla (22) have already said what needs to be said. Until you get what they are saying, words from me will fall on deaf ears. Praying that you have ears to hear and that you will allow the Savior to rub mud in your eyes. Don't fear the future. My life has been so prosperous post Maranatha. God will take care of you too. |
nicknak
Junior Member
Username: nicknak
Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 207.200.116.135
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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Amen, Awake... |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:26 pm: |
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Jesus is the HEAD OF THE CHURCH. Justyn M has put the CHURCH goverment as the Head of the church. Its called the Shepherding Movement, why don't you study it. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:50 pm: |
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"If LEADERSHIP was held ACCOUNTABLE, FactNet would not even exists. It exists because of the ABUSE and LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY. There are dozens of first hand stories over all of these threads." -- This applies both to EN and Victory |
lablady2
Intermediate Member
Username: lablady2
Post Number: 216
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 12.219.171.224
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
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Justyn,
Are you not casting your pearls before swine? Aren't you wasting valuable time when you could be saving the lost, praying or studying the word?
How do you justify your time here?
Repent before God for your sin of indulging in and contributing to the gossipmongers when you, clearly, should know better. |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 436
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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Justyn
You are either part of the SOLUTION or you are part of the PROBLEM of crooked leadership....Your reaction may actually be your last ditch attempt to try and accept things and "work it out." I did that the WEEK before we left. I dug my heals in, said, we can make this WORK...the heck with what they are saying on factnet.
That was 1 1/2 years ago. We left, and we couldn't make it work. It was very difficult to give up our investment of time and relationships. It was the only way to live in truth.The first and foremost offense is to God, is to Jesus Christ. They defy His Word. In EN, the First is First and the last is last. They preach a different Jesus, and are self-appointed. There is no evidence of any of these men being God's special leaders. God would not entrust LIVES of His flock to these men.
It doesn't line up with the bible. So from any angle you view this, you can NOT serve EN and GOD at the same time. Not once your eyes are opened. |
ulyankee
Advanced Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 992
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 70.153.71.66
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
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Dust: There is no evidence of any of these men being God's special leaders.
To the best of my understanding, they are considered and/or consider themselves part of the "five fold ministry" - apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers.
Those in the five fold ministry are considered to have more authority, given them by God. This is derived in part from Watchman Nee's concept of "delegated authority," which was among the foundational theories in the shepherding movement. I am assuming this concept of delegated authority - that the five fold have been given all Christ's authority on earth - is why there are discipleship boundaries and not five fold boundaries, since disciplers are not in the five fold ministry. And why Steve M. would say things like "authority must be granted, not taken." Mere disciplers aren't granted this authority. In the CG model, they are being "commissioned" and "empowered" to minister (enact Means in keeping with EN's stated Ends) by Steve M. - but not to have the same authority as the five fold. They are being commissioned and empowered BY EN leaders, BY the five fold, and serve UNDER their AUTHORITY. So... it would be important to ask, has this authority been granted to top EN leaders, or assumed/taken?
What are the Ends of Every Nation? Since followers don't have a say in Ends, just in enacting Means to those Ends, that is another important question.
Also some of these leaders also seem to have different five fold giftings depending on what is going on in EN. For example, Rice Broocks, who is supposedly going back to his original role as evangelist (which was his staff position as Maranatha was, btw). But is he still an apostle? Still a pastor? I believe he is still acting in both capacities.
Jim Laffoon is considered a prophet. But what about the false or recycled prophecies he has apparently told?
The reason why we should be concerned is because this is an international movement. These people don't just serve in a local church. They travel world wide. Their stated mission is to reach every nation in our generation, and to plant a church in every nation. According to both Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon, the purpose of those churches is to infiltrate and "disciple" those societies, cultures, governments, etc. And now, according to their own recent admission, they will be networking with other churches, other networks, and even governments as in the case of the Israeli government. "It takes the whole church to reach the whole world." And does this mean that without EN, it's not the whole church? Or that EN is supposed to bring the whole church together? Their role seems awfully prominent here. And it does impact more than the local church but this is a vision and mission extending to the entire Body of Christ.
Anyway, this isn't just a local church concern. This isn't just a walk away and leave everyone else to fend for themselves concern. Not after thirty years of the same old same old in some cases. If someone is truly repentant and restored, great. I praise God for that. But Jesus Himself also told the Pharisees to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. So it is not unreasonable to look for that fruit before once again trusting a leader with a history like that of a Phil Bonasso, for example.
(Message edited by ulyankee on August 13, 2006) |
ulyankee
Advanced Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 994
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 70.153.71.66
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
|
Oops, my bad, it was John the Baptist who said to bear fruit in keeping with repentance (Matthew 3:8).
John MacArthur does correlate this verse with Jesus' teaching on the vine and the branches though, in light of another John MacArthur teaching referenced above.
(Message edited by ulyankee on August 13, 2006) |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.195.184.47
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:59 am: |
|
After reading ulyankee's post one thing that popped into my head is that original foundational apostles could establish church doctrine at least about the important stuff and if you can't do that can you be an apostle? Just rambling and still confused about this subject since John Wesley obviously acted in apostolic giftings, was he an apostle? Like I said confused.
O.K- this part: According to both Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon, the purpose of those churches is to infiltrate and "disciple" those societies, cultures, governments, etc. 40/40 here, how is that possible since this is not a hospital church? Come on guys, "Champions for Christ" is not exactly give me your poor your tired your hungry huddled masses...etc. kind of message. Infiltrate the world? they reject most of the world for being poor and kind of loser like. Just thoughts. Chow! |
robert_unknown
Advanced Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 620
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:10 am: |
|
"According to both Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon, the purpose of those churches is to infiltrate and "disciple" those societies, cultures, governments, etc."
is this apostolic? or is it how conspiracies work?
in my eyes an apostle has signs and wonders (real ones and no fake) and as far is I know the bible apostles have started an pioneered churches BY THEMSELVES, and not just sent out some kids to do the job.
what is prophetic? is a prophet not a teacher of the word and someone through whom the prophetic gifts get manifested reliable? as far as i have understood it, Mr.Laffoons prophecies are nothing but hot air! no fullfillment! they arent even unique, but get repeated wherever it suits.
so EN is NO apostoliv movement. the only apostolic that is happeneing, perhaps, might be happen in the philipines. but i am to less informed to judgte if this has to ´do with EN or if it is a souvereign revival and EN just is part of it...
so Brooks, Nasso, Laffon. the unholy trinity. thy are no apostles nor prophets. thir gifting lays in deceiving pastors and churches to the point where they give theim over their works. shame, shame, shame on them! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1201
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:50 am: |
|
What amazes me is this, even though the Lord send his Judgement to the philippine church , a major blow to the philippine leadership two years ago. You think they will have gain some fear of God. And yet... Nothing. I do wonder, losing those children, because of their sins, Love of Money and Greed, is it worth it ? I guess not, because if it does, they would have stop .
That judgement should have shown a sign from God,
Only the HEAD pastors are affected. And ALL of them, FIRSTBORN SONS. And ALL of them , the attack are on the HEAD. Menigitis , fever, head injury or head trauma.
THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE HEAD of the church.
The Lord have killed all the Firstborn sons of the Egyptians. And the sign was because there is something wrong with the Head , which is Pharaoh.
A sign , something is wrong with the senior pastors of the Philippine churches. |
miltietoast
Advanced Member
Username: miltietoast
Post Number: 585
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 24.159.19.127
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:50 am: |
|
justyn m would you have Hitler and help him exterminate Jews? You probably have played a part in the extermination of sheep |
lablady2
Intermediate Member
Username: lablady2
Post Number: 225
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 12.219.171.224
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:58 am: |
|
justyn, your repetitive references to those on this board as "my friend" or "my dear friend" or "dear friends" are condescending, an attitude to be expected from those of the MCM/EN leadership ilk but not likely to be well received here. Knock it off.
Here's a lesson about being on a high horse: you have farther to fall. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
|
well,justyn is being "used" as always.poor guy. |
ulyankee
Advanced Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 997
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:14 pm: |
|
40/40: Infiltrate the world? they reject most of the world for being poor and kind of loser like.
EN wants to find and disciple LEADERS. See Jim Laffoon's 2004 World Conference talk. He wants to disciple the next (US) president. I'm not making that up - that's in there. But that's how it would happen. Find and train the leaders, get the world.
This is the whole modus operandi for ENLI - to disciple and train leaders. ENLI's motto is "Equipping and Launching a New Generation of Christian Leaders." According to both Rice Broocks in Every Nation in Our Generation, and Jim Laffoon in his 2004 World Conference talk, this doesn't just refer to church leaders as we think of church leaders, but leaders in general.
I strongly suggest that the 2010 Initiative be read in this perspective. Read Jim Laffoon's 2004 World Conference talk, his book A Divine Alliance if you can get it, Rice Broocks' Every Nation in Our Generation, and the 2010 Initiative... really read them all TOGETHER in context. I've concluded that it is about more than just planting churches and simple evangelization, far more - but that is really up to you to decide for yourselves, as led by the Spirit. Every EN member has the right to test for themselves whether they are on board with EN's true mission and vision, and whether they really believe that this is what Jesus Christ would have us do. That's what I started doing for myself, nearly two & 1/2 years ago now, as prompted and led by the Lord. EN's mission and vision have not changed since then. The reorganization did NOT include altering EN's mission and vision. |
miltietoast
Advanced Member
Username: miltietoast
Post Number: 588
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 24.159.19.127
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
|
as I mentioned in 1981 staff meeting ,How do we lead people we do not even like or want to associate with? I got demons cast out but the demons must have returned with their friends to visit EN. The DNA does reproduce doesn't it?Greg Ball once told me Morningstar or chimps for Christ were called to the wealthy. I thought to myself ,"You lucky BxAxSxTxAxRxD. You spend 100% of your time courting the .0001% of the population on the golf courses,yacht clubs,and Lexus rally's. I'm sure Jesus left us an example that we should follow but I can't find it.Oh here is one "There is one thing you are lacking, go sell everything and give it to the poor" The WOF ers ought to try that once.According to their gospel they would end up with Saddams palace,50 lexus's,three vacation homes,2 rolex's and bobby joe's gold wrist bracelet.What a blessing they are missing |
coppertree
Advanced Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 671
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.146.245.32
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
|
Hi Ul. I would say that this has been Maranatha's mission from about 1977 on. I see no difference in MSI/EN. We were told that we will disciple a President that went through Maranatha; I think at an MTLS. It was our mission to reach leaders in every field so to speak.} |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.191.109.90
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:35 am: |
|
Yeah I must have had a brain lapse ulyankee I know they want to go after the future leaders to rule the future losers which their not interested in unless they are receiveing tithes from them (its a numbers game, many more losers out there then winners the sheer numbers add up to sizable $) LOL.
Except for Paul, did Jesus really go out of his way to target winners/leaders? more red word meat food for thought that will not be given a thought by EN leaders. You have to admit one thing though, for just normal members the ministry is just slapping people in the face with their emphasis on winners and leaders....etc. It's like excuse me I am not all that hot myself and I have loved ones who are considered losers that I would like to see in heaven? OH well, sigh, somethings don't seem to change.
And like Miltie said:How do we lead people we do not even like or want to associate with? That is a great point just like Milties point on having kids drop out before they get their degree. Going after the winners to influence the winners of the world and when you get one of them you have them drop out and go full time? Uhhh??? Head scratching time is upon me again.
I wished we were a hospital church. That would have been great fun slapping together some baloney sandwiches and handing them out to those that needed them (Rice and Bob ripped us off in this regard - how dare they). Problem is though once you bring in the super losers you have to drop your standards because no matter how hard they try they will not be able to meet membership requirements and that is just not acceptable for the elite. It sounds like EN is just the same today, most likely worse. |
justyn_m
Member
Username: justyn_m
Post Number: 57
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 222.126.1.50
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 5:18 am: |
|
From: "Ginger1"
Justyn , You are not looking for Witness, You are looking for somebody whom your Master Pastor wants to Crucify. You want the names of people that you want to PERSECUTE. Sorry, your wished won't be granted. If you want witness, GO TO STEVE MURRELL. ASK HIM he knows this. But since you are a COWARD , too bad. Thats your problem.
Ariel also has Misuse some Funds. He is no better than Phil Bonasso . My suggestion for him, HE NEEDS TO STEP DOWN AND GET A JOB !
======================================
Dear Friend,
So you want to manipulate some pastors also by following your command? I'm really surprise when you said this. Please do not accuse people of manipulation. I suggest that you check your very words again. God bless you and your family. May the Lord continue to open the windows of opportunity for you.
Justyn M. |
jackbauer
New member
Username: jackbauer
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 203.177.176.111
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:50 am: |
|
NOT ALL PASTORS ARE MEANT TO BE PASTORS
NOT ALL LEADERS ARE MEANT TO BE LEADERS...
..im from the philippines and i've proven it and i've seen it..
if steve or the pastors are hiding something..it will come out..
just wait..IT CANNOT BE KEPT..
a lot of the things i've read from here i thought was just a bad dream..but it's happening
but most are quite accurate..i see it and i feel it here..
just wait
(Message edited by jackbauer on August 15, 2006) |
jackbauer
New member
Username: jackbauer
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 203.177.176.111
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 7:07 am: |
|
to justyn_m:
you've been writing all these things
..are you friends with ariel?
cause if you are, can we ask you to ASK him about this..his salary and his brothers..you can print all of our posts and show it to him..im sure they will not refuse to answer you if they're not hiding something.
if nothing is wrong..everything will be open and transparent,nothing will look like a secret,nothing's hidden..specially for a church movement where all the money are freely given by the people who obeys God.
we ask you this favor justyn_m!
you must kmow him |
wisedove
Member
Username: wisedove
Post Number: 59
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 85.195.119.14
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:32 am: |
|
welcome aboard, jackbauer!
dove |
miltietoast
Advanced Member
Username: miltietoast
Post Number: 592
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 24.159.19.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:41 am: |
|
greetings Jack |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:50 am: |
|
It was a suggestion made by ginger and not a command, justyn. She said "my suggestion." My guess, you haven't gone up to pastor steve yet and asked him about everything because you'd rather not hear the truth which is a very sad one indeed.The truth always hurts.Ginger has earned credibility here. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:11 am: |
|
I pity the provincial pastors in the Philippines considering how much they are making compared to these "Alabang dudes." How the "Alabang dudes" spend the money of the members will shock these provincial pastors. Sad to say, it has become all about the money now.
Right on, Jack Bauer. God is dangling everything rightinfront of us. Intercessors are increasing in number praying for the wolves in sheep's clothing to be exposed and bring deliverance to God's sheep. God is setting everything up. This is going to be one BIG fall. God is the head of the church not pastors.Another thing, corporate repentance, pastor steve. Corporate repentance.Let the abusers, lovers of money,etc. step down and receive discipline.sin is sin or have we forgotten |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 411
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:15 am: |
|
What will God say to the pastor as he faithfully took care of the flock, “Well done good and faithful servant . . . "
Well done thou good and faithful servant, you tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but you yourself are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Well done thou good and faithful servant, everything you do is done for men to see. You make your phylacteries wide and the tassels on your garments long; you love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the churches; you love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call you "Pastor".
Well done thou good and faithful servant, for you have neglected the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faithfulness.
Well done thou good and faithful servant, you strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
Well done though good and faithful servant, you clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Well done though good and faithful servant, you are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
Well done though good and faithful servant, on the outside you appear to people as righteous, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
. . . come and share your master's happiness. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 412
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:37 am: |
|
Welcome to factnet wideawake and jackbauer. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:41 am: |
|
My suggestion to whistleblowers, do not leave the sheep in the care of these "wolves in sheep's clothing." By the way, not all pastors in alabang are lovers of money,greedy,manipulative,controlling,proud,abusive,arrogant,etc.
Someone has to look after these pastors every move. Someone has to watch over them or they might behave like the "brat pack" again. Someone has to look after the sheep for the sheep is no longer safe with these pastors. |
miltietoast
Advanced Member
Username: miltietoast
Post Number: 597
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 24.159.19.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
|
well done JIA |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 413
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
|
Hi Wideawake, thanks for your statement, "not all pastors in alabang are lovers of money, greedy, manipulative, controlling, proud, abusive, arrogant." Please know that In no way, shape, or form is my post above meant to reflect on any true pastor or shepherd in alabang, or anywhere else.
Rather, it is in response to justyn's statement: "Now, when the accuser and the pastor goes to heaven what will God say to the pastor as he faithfully took care of the flock, "Well done good and faithful servant . . . come and share your master's happiness." But for the accuser . . . it's for you to think about."
To all of you true pastors out there, Jesus will no doubt say "Well done good and faithful servant." Thank you for all that you do.
For the ones that abuse the sheep "in the name of Christ", these are the ones that my post is reserved for. Jesus will no doubt have some strong, heavy words for all that abuse His sheep in His name. |
coppertree
Advanced Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 674
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.162.36.36
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 1:37 pm: |
|
Hi All Catching Up- Thank you Wideawake and Jack Bauer, welcome. You are indeed like a cup of cool water to us ! We are praying for people to have eyes to see and ears to hear ! Thanks again.} |
jackbauer
New member
Username: jackbauer
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 203.177.176.111
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 1:52 pm: |
|
you guys are right..although i know those alabang pastors..from what im reading in this board..im not after them really,I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEM..they will pay..im after someone who will lead the church with INTEGRITY..im so concerned about the people..im still part of victory..we do outreaches every month..lots of people get save each time..and also (no offense) i can't find another church here if i'll move out..im concerned about the new people who get save..every month we get almost 30 people..we need desperately someone who will lead us..i don't care about the dirty work they covering up,true or not..but we need someone who will lead with INTEGRITY..who's not a slave of money..victory here is quite a blessed church actually
..aircon rooms,mall services,great sound system..comfortable..sometimes refered as "church of rich people"..
we need leders with integrity..the discipleship/accountabilty system really works although that's where the leaders failed..but it works so i can't find another church..sorry guys im just emotional now..
i had a dream a few months ago..about the church members of victory on a sea shore..we were standing there..and after that i saw a big wave about to devour us..
another dream was i was in the ENLI,classroom..and after class students went out then i saw the floor ripped apart and i saw garbage at the foudation,just dirt..murky water..then i asked one pastor son,"is this the foundation?..he said yes..i said "man,this will fall..
wierd dream aint it?..
i shared it with my cell leader who is having almost the same dream..
this was last year i think..we thought we where evil or condemed or crazy or something..
but a few months after those dreams i found this site..and there you go..
the dreams maybe just dreams,it may or may not mean anything but certainly something big is happening and a Big wave is about to hit the with EVERY NATION..moment of cleansing..BE READY! |
j2theperson
Intermediate Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 269
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
|
quote:JackBauer: i had a dream a few months ago..about the church members of victory on a sea shore..we were standing there..and after that i saw a big wave about to devour us..
I had a dream sort of like that just a couple weeks before the Tony Fetchel sex scandal broke. In my dream God's river was flowing through a forest and some people I knew from MSI approached it in an irreverent and presumptuous manner. A big tidal wave rose up and washed over them. After it subsided they continued to remain where they were. Another larger and more powerful wave swept over them, this time completely washing them away.
For what it's worth, that was my dream. I mention it only because it sounds similar to Jack's. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1205
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.228.217.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
|
I had several dreams too over the years. Philippine church and the U.S. EN Leadership.
I do know that God's judgement is coming upon this ministry.
Go to this link. Post it there also. Those dreams are warning dreams thats about to happen in EN.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22879.html?1154553957 |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:49 pm: |
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Its okay JIA, i was just reminded of it. Blessings to you.
I forgot to say that there are pathetic liars in Alabang church, that is, "some" alabang pastors only. So sheep, you are not safe. Watch your back. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 7:02 pm: |
|
"had a dream a few months ago..about the church members of victory on a sea shore..we were standing there..and after that i saw a big wave about to devour us.. "
JackBauer! I had exactly the same dream! Oh man, they have to watch out for God. It is scary to fall into the hands of God.
Let me quote a friend, "Ariel and Bernard are only small fries compared to what the top EN leaders are doing in secret. They resort to monkey see, monkey do." So, there you go. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
|
From JIA-->Justyn, I shared some my story with you. I am familiar with many other stories that I know of first hand. Some before I left, some after. There were beautiful people I knew that were damaged by spiritual abuse while I was still a part. I saw it happen, but I didn't really SEE it. I was blinded by the "DO NOT TOUCH THE LORD'S ANOINTED" type of teaching . . . leaven from the very top. I SAW WRONG THINGS DONE, BUT EXCUSED IT AWAY BEC. OF THE TEACHING THAT YOU DO NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY, YOU ONLY PRAY IF YOU SEE SOMETHING WRONG. I regret my BLINDNESS now, and if I could go back in time, I would stand up on behalf of these friends. It is too late for that now. What I can do, is stand up now and share. That I am doing.
"do not touch God's annointed" type of teaching . . . leaven from the very top. I saw wrong things done, but excused it away because of the teaching that you do not question authority, you only pray if you see something wrong.
--SHEEP, BE CAREFUL OF THIS. YOU WILL NOT BE CURSED TO THINK BAD ABOUT THE PASTORS OR IF YOU POINT A FINGER TO A WRONG PRACTICE. YOU HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED TO CLOSE YOUR EYES TO THE WRONG THAT THEY ARE DOIN.THAT IS FALSE DOCTRINE.YOU WILL NOT BE CURSED. WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING WRONG BEING DONE, BRING IT UP.LOOK AFTER THE PEOPLE GOD SENDS YOU.IF YOU DO BRING SOMETHING UP TO LEADERSHIP, I HOPE THEY WOULD TAKE ACTION THOUGH BUT DON'T KEEP YOUR HOPES UP. IF STEVE ISN'T DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT, THEN HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT THEM TO BEHAVE? WELL, UNLESS YOU'RE REALLY RICH, THEN MAYBE THEY'LL HEAR YOU OUT. LOL
Since you do not trust the pastors with your tithe, tithe to anyone in the flock in need of financial help. Send financial relief to the needy believers.
JESUS, PLS DELIVER YOUR SHEEP FROM THESE WOLVES. GIVE THEM A MAN WHO WILL LEAD YOUR FLOCK IN REVERENCE AND FEAR OF THE LORD, A MAN WHO WILL LEAD WITH UTMOST INTEGRITY AND GREAT LEADERSHIP. LET THE BLIND SEE, LET THE DEAF HEAR.IN JESUS' MIGHTY NAME |
dazzla
Junior Member
Username: dazzla
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.229.243.61
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:21 pm: |
|
wideawake..
Do you know the female leader who left Alabang church recently because she was dating an un-yoked guy ?
Do you know why she left ? Why she was not able to stay in the church ? |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:35 pm: |
|
dazzla,
hmmnn, I don't know about the most recent one, but I do know of some who left. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:50 pm: |
|
hi coppertree! Thanks for welcoming us. I've been abused too but can't tell my story..not just yet.
I just keep thinking about the body of Christ. I have a deep burden to keep praying for them. |
matt_hatter
Advanced Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 943
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.165.149
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:03 pm: |
|
Welcome wideawake and Jack. You will find friends, young and old here...think of our little world as a safe haven of freedom!
Matt |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:05 pm: |
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HEADS UP TO YOU JUSTYN M, By DAZZLA--->>>I just woke up in the midle of the night and the first thing that came ot mind, as if it woke me up, was Justyns comments :
--- "1. Go look for another church and leave everything in the hands of God. After all, you are not the Holy Spirit who does the conviction."
I logged on straight away to share the unsettled feeling I had to find it perfectly articulated by Ulyankee.
Justyn .... Are you serious about this poiint ?
So if abuse of Leadrership of any sort is happening then your advise to people is to just leave ? I cannot think of anything more unbiblical and contrary to much of what Jesus represents.
Your arrival to this site is a blessing as so many EN sheep reading this will perhaps for the first time have uncomfortable instincts clarified.
As a current EN "Leader" you have highlighted the flaws in Every Nation Inc. far more effectively than 1000 posts from former EN'ers
I pray that this is the start of your own journey towards a true relationship with Christ unbridled by Man. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:24 pm: |
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you have no right to tell anyone to leave the church, justyn m. The pastors are not the head of the church but it is GOD. Someone has to keep watch over the flock and keep watch over these pastors' wayward ways. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 421
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:17 am: |
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Wideawake: JESUS, PLS DELIVER YOUR SHEEP FROM THESE WOLVES. GIVE THEM A MAN WHO WILL LEAD YOUR FLOCK IN REVERENCE AND FEAR OF THE LORD, A MAN WHO WILL LEAD WITH UTMOST INTEGRITY AND GREAT LEADERSHIP. LET THE BLIND SEE, LET THE DEAF HEAR.IN JESUS' MIGHTY NAME
JIA: God promises to do this in Ezekial 34:2-4, 10. Jackbauer, Wideawake, you and your fellowship of brothers and sisters will be in my prayers. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 422
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:19 am: |
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Wideawake: JESUS, PLS DELIVER YOUR SHEEP FROM THESE WOLVES. GIVE THEM A MAN WHO WILL LEAD YOUR FLOCK IN REVERENCE AND FEAR OF THE LORD, A MAN WHO WILL LEAD WITH UTMOST INTEGRITY AND GREAT LEADERSHIP. LET THE BLIND SEE, LET THE DEAF HEAR.IN JESUS' MIGHTY NAME
JIA: God promises to do this in Ezekial 34:2-4, 10. Jackbauer, Wideawake, you and your fellowship of brothers and sisters will be in my prayers. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 423
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:42 am: |
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Jackbauer and Wideawake, I share the following word given through Wendy Alec, in the hopes that it will encourage you. If it does, great . . . if not, then please just disregard.
JUDGEMENT AGAINS THE SHEPHERDS
Woe to you, shepherds who have not fed my sheep.
I speak woe to you pastors who have not fed my sheep. I say woe to you, pastors of the Western church who have not fed My sheep but who have fed on the gold and silver. Who have decked yourselves in finery and bedecked yourselves with jewels, but not from My hand, says the Lord. For I am about to take out of your hand congregations. I am about to take out of your hand, your influence. I am about to take from your hand, wealth and prosperity.
And you shall know that it is I, the Lord your God, who has done this thing. And I have done it because you looked to your own regard rather than my people. I have done it because you have served yourselves and your families and your elders rather than serving My people. And so I will remove from you your influence and I shall grant My people shepherds who will feed them, shepherds who will bind up their broken hearts, shepherds who will spend themselves for those who lack, who will feed the poor, who will comfort the grieving, who will deliver the oppressed.
For these ones will be My pastors. For in this day of the Lord that approaches, in this day, I will raise up the faithful and many will arise from obscurity. Many will rise from the shadows. For until now they have been unseen but these are My faithful ones, these are My proven ones. These are the ones whose heart is My heart.
And so My sheep will no longer be scattered as without shepherds, but in this last time I will grant My people shepherds after My own heart, shepherds that shall lay down their own life for that of My sheep. Shepherds who are not hirelings but are servants. Shepherds who look to the needs of My flock rather than to the needs of themselves and their own.
For the cries of the oppressed, and the cries of the suffering in the congregations have risen up to Me. Even as My people's cries rose up to Me when My people were oppressed in Egypt. And so in the same way that I raised up a deliverer from among them, that I raised up Moses, so at this time My eyes search to and fro across the whole earth as I weigh and consider the hearts of My shepherds. And to those who have faithfully tended my flock, to those who have put their needs second and who have placed the needs of the suffering, the wounded, the oppressed and the poor above their own needs, it is to these that I shall raise up in this time to care for My sheep.
For I tell you that I search for My shepherds. I seek them out. Many have been hidden and are unseen from view. But to that remnant that even now in this time have been found faithful, these are the ones that I shall multiply. I shall multiply them upon the hills and the valleys. I shall multiply them over the cities and nations and My people shall find under their rod, a rod not of iron, but a golden sceptre, a rod of mercy, a rod of wisdom, a rod of grace. And so indeed, these are the ones who shall train My disciples. These are the ones I have found faithful and these are the ones to whom much shall be entrusted in this last hour. |
nicknak
Junior Member
Username: nicknak
Post Number: 38
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 207.200.116.135
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 9:39 am: |
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Jackbauer and Wideawake - peace and greetings to you!! My thoughts and prayers are with you and your fellowship. Our brothers and sisters on FactNet, through their testimony and prayer,have brought me encouragement, strength, courage and peace. May you find it here too. Welcome! |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
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jia: For the cries of the oppressed, and the cries of the suffering in the congregations have risen up to Me. Even as My people's cries rose up to Me when My people were oppressed in Egypt.
jia, this was one of the things the Lord told me as I was crying out to Him, right before I left my former church, that He has heard our cries.
Not long after I left EN I wrote a song about our collective experience, comparing it to the exodus from Egypt... at the time I thought, maybe I'm taking too much creative license with this, maybe it's not appropriate.
Here we are, the ones who escaped
We're at the shoreline, and here we will wait
The army's comin', they're fast on our tail
But You told us that You would prevail
And we're down on our knees crying, "Let His people go."
We were in shackles, we were in chains
Doin' someone else's will, but all in your name
You broke through darkness, now we can see
Now all we ask is for everyone to be free
And we're down on our knees crying, "Let His people go."
It looks so hopeless, but we stil have faith
[crud! I can't remember this line!!]
Deliverance is ours, vict'ry has come
We will not falter for Your strength has won
And we're down on our knees crying, "Let His people...
Down on our knees begging, "Let His people...
We wait for You to shout,
LET MY PEOPLE GO!
LET MY PEOPLE GO!
LET MY PEOPLE GO!
In retrospect, maybe it really was the Lord speaking to my heart, saying, I AM your DELIVERER.
HE IS OUR STRENGTH
HE IS OUR SHIELD
HE IS OUR COVERING
HE IS ALL SUFFICIENT |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 424
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 10:18 am: |
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Beautiful lyrics, Ulyankee. Wish I could hear these lyrics. Thanks for sharing. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 10:37 am: |
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thanks, jia, though the main reason why I shared is b/c what you posted reconfirmed what the Lord was speaking to my heart - that He has heard our cries. I still beg and cry for His people to be set free, into true freedom in Christ, though knowing that He hears us and that He WILL NOT continue to allow His sheep to be beaten, abused, and fleeced in His name, or to be led astray. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 425
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:24 am: |
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Yes, He hears. The scriptures in Ezekial really spoke to me when I left and was crying out to Him for answers. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
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thank you so much JIA. You just brought tears to my eyes. God hears me. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 427
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:39 am: |
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He does hear you, and loves you deeply, and cares for you and your brethren are going through. I can relate because I have been there, so it makes it very easy to feel what you must be going through. You will stay in my prayers. |
bill_mack
Advanced Member
Username: bill_mack
Post Number: 571
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 67.95.34.234
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:02 pm: |
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"Jackbauer and Wideawake, I share the following word given through Wendy Alec, in the hopes that it will encourage you. If it does, great . . . if not, then please just disregard."
Rory and Wendy Alec are hard-core Latter Rain. You might as well get your prophecies from a box of Cracker Jack or Benny Hinn's crack suppliers. |
wideawake
New member
Username: wideawake
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 202.8.237.136
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:31 pm: |
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"Rory and Wendy Alec are hard-core Latter Rain. You might as well get your prophecies from a box of Cracker Jack or Benny Hinn's crack suppliers"
---->and that leaves me rolling!LOL<------ |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 429
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:13 am: |
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Bill, I think you have a tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not everything is a conspiracy, and there's not a devil behind every bush. The Lord can speak through a donkey, and can speak many different ways. If something goes against scripture, then I will throw it out. What is shared above does not contradict scripture, but has encouraged people going through some tough things. God can, and does, speak through people who don't have all of their theological ducks lined up. None of us has the full picture, and it takes the full body. You have certain giftings, others have different giftings. Be care that you don't reject Christ because He's not coming in the form you expect. |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 442
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 2:30 pm: |
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I think the caution has to be this. Be careful of false prophets. Sometimes they do tell truth. There are many leaders in EN who if we quote a particular sermon, it will be bible based. But, in the scope of their ministry, they will also preach and teach false doctrine. It's not the same thing as a donkey because the donkey doesn't have the international "INFLUENCE" many of the false teachers have. Some of us are very good at discerning truth, but many aren't, and that's the problem. I would ask this. Is it biblical that God will multiplying the shepherds? I am naive, so forgive this and perhaps someone who understands end times better can answer this. The statement in that prophecy that says:
I shall multiply them upon the hills and the valleys. I shall multiply them over the cities and nations
This concerns me, but I admit to being hypervigilant. |
coppertree
Advanced Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 686
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.144.209.10
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:03 pm: |
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Hi All- Dust I agree with your post# 442. We can see a similar message in the Word; however without the multiplying on hills, valleys, cities, and nations. In fact the Word talks about a great falling away...} |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 430
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:05 pm: |
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Dust I think that my focus, and the way I look at this, may be different that you and Bill. Regarding the phrase, "I shall multiply them upon the hills and the valleys. I shall multiply them over the cities and nations" . . . I haven't check to see where that is in scripture, or tried to determine exactly what that means. This isn't the part that ministered to my heart.
Personally, what I have pulled out of this, and what this speaks to my heart is encouragement that God will look out for his sheep, hear their prayers, and deliver them from false shepherds and provide true in place of the false, and that is really the main focus for sharing this. As I mentioned to Wideawake and Jackbauer, if it doesn't mean anything to them, then just throw out. I am not gifted in apologetics, and many here could easily argue me into the ground. That's okay. The simplicity of the gospel and what Christ did, however, that I understand. My focus here is to hopefully encourage.
The older I get, the more I realize the less I know, and my focus now is more to live in simplicity and try to be more like Christ in loving others. My hope is for my heart to be more like the heart of Jesus, and if I can be a vessel of encouragement and healing, someone that encourages and helps others to keep on keeping on, then I am content with that. That was my aim here, to share something that I thought might encourage Wideawake and Jackbauer, as it has encouraged me. |
wisedove
Member
Username: wisedove
Post Number: 72
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.10
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:21 pm: |
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I have to add something here..(God, help me!) When I read the prophetic word that JIA posted above I felt God was confirming a word that I had posted http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22942.html?1154258811
about giving a message to shepherds who feed the sheep, not feed off of them. When you read both words, the same phrase was used about feeding or not feeding the sheep. My own experience with the EN church I attended was this very thing. How things LOOKed was of utmost importance. The congregation does not have access to the pastor.
You have uplines (small group leaders, etc.) to go through just to get to the pastor. When people leave they get NO CONTACT from any one in the church. I guess if I were a millionaire I'd have gotten a call, but there is no concern for the flock...
Jesus went after the 1.
I, personally, am tired of trying to figure out who is true, who is false, etc. I only know that JESUS is real, the HOLY SPIRIT is real, and HE is able to guide us into all truth...there is a KNOWING that gets quickened in my spirit when something is from my FATHER and there is a YUCK that rises up when something MIGHT NOT be from Him. Pure and simple devotion to Christ should be our focus..and to constantly write off some ones prophecy as false b/c of this theological thing or THAT theological thing gives me a headache.
I just say..God confirms His word, and thank God I am learning once again without fear to Hear His Voice for myself... |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 168
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 66.156.36.106
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:44 pm: |
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wise: I, personally, am tired of trying to figure out who is true, who is false, etc.
Me: Do what the Lord said to do: "Ye shall know them by their fruits." (Mt. 7:16) Of course, this is part of the whole passage regarding false prophets.
Ignore "gifts"; ignore "annointings"; ignore "miracles" and claims of "healings" and all the so-called charismatic stuff. It's all about character. The Apostle Paul wrote that one could have all the "gifts", speak in tongues, prophesy, work miracles, but if he has not love, *he is nothing*. There is so much deception out there, so many demons masquerading as "angels of light", so many spiritually immature and ignorant people wanting to be "giants of the faith" and falling for the deceptions of demons" that these so-called "supernatural" things mean *nothing*.
It's all about the Grace of Christ coming through someone. If they don't act like Christ, nothing else matters. Read the Gospels, see how Christ acted. Do they have the fruit? Do you see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control in their lives? A man can fake some, but not all. Jesus told us, but in our desire to see the miracles, to see the "power of God", we ignore Him and follow after the hucksters and tricksters, the deceivers and the self-deceived. The Lord asked "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46) And He told us, "Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)
A man who professes to be from God but has not love, has not patience, has not goodness, kindness, self-control, does not love his enemies, is at best not "spiritual" enough to follow and at worst is a *liar* and a deceiver. |
jesusisawesome
Intermediate Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 431
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.101
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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Dove and 78, I wholeheartedly agree with what both of you are saying, and that is the way I tend to look at things. |
wisedove
Member
Username: wisedove
Post Number: 73
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.10
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 4:26 pm: |
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78-
thanks for your post. I must say though that we are all guilty of not walking in the fruit of the spirit. I don't know 1 person who walks in the fruit of the holy spirit at ALL times. Thank God I am a work in progress. I am learning that I can love someone but not have anything to do with them at the same time. I am learning that I can be angry and sin not.
I am learning that satan is a liar and the accuser of the brethren, and he can use scriptures like you (78) posted to bring condemnation against a person...and beat them down with the word. (I am not accusing you, just speaking from personal experiences...which I have not shared here.) I can share some of my personal experiences and things I've had to walk through, for me they were as close to hell on earth as it gets..
Without getting into specifics, these are things I have had to walk through regularly in my married adult life...much of which caused a major personality change in myself.
1. false accusations (major one-that I caused my child's disabilities.)
2. condemnation and a feeling of inadequacy
3. walking on eggshells even in my own home.
4. accused of having a problem with anger (I have been extremely angry and frustrated having to walk through the things that I have had to)
5. character assasination
6. isolation
7. rejection
8. emotional abuse
9. spiritual abuse
10. depression
I feel like I can go on and on...Only 2 peole here know more about my personal testimony (not my EN testimony) but all of this to say..God does not throw our failures at our face. He does not bring up things that we have asked him for forgiveness for, for he throws our sins in to a sea of forgetfulness.
So, as I am trying to be more Christlike, and am learning to walk in all of those fruits, I am holding on to the fact that I am not perfect, NO one is perfect, and I hope God is patient in our path of growing.
I tell you one more thing. God reminded me of a time I prayed to know Him more. He showed me that to know Him you walk in the fellowship of His sufferings. I have suffered much, and confess I did not always handle things the way Jesus did..I didn't forgive my accuser very easily. We were advised not to have a relationship with this divisive person, even though it is a family member. I have not always turned the other cheek.
I have been guilty of walking in self-preservation, and defensiveness, and my anger at times is a root of fear and disappointment...I have been bitter, but am learning to let it go...I have been prideful, and am reminded God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
At times in my life, HE was all I had, aside from my children. Oh, the times I spent on my face in prayer and crying out to my FATHER. Oh, the sweet times of worshipping Him in private. I'm getting back to all of that now, and pray THROUGH THE INTIMATE TIMES WITH HIM and through reading His word, I will have more of those evidences of the fruit of the Holy Spirit in my life. Until then, I press on to the goal..... |
wisedove
Member
Username: wisedove
Post Number: 74
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 85.195.123.22
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 5:08 pm: |
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P.S.
I have just read the verses from Matthew 10:35-36 "For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. and a man's enemies will be those of his own household."
I have been allowed to experience this type of rejection. The note at the bottom of my Bible says "Jesus does not attack family relationships, but indicates that no earthly tie, however intimate, should detract from aggressive loyalty to Him. This loyalty may even result in certain family members being shunned by others."
This is an area I know well...It has been a painful experience, but God is working things out for HIS good. |
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