| Author | Message | ||
     voidgate Member Username: voidgate Post Number: 84 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 144.138.162.6 |
Some of the very recent posts on this site, or components thereof, are disintegrating into a subjective viewpoint. A subjective viewpoint is not a personal conclusion drawn from one's experience but a viewpoint based on illogical assumption. The posts on this site are for public viewing. They are not erased. To retain credibility in objections to RSE/Ramtha it is wise to remain objective...stating one's experience honestly. Subjective assessment proliferates everywhere and from the point of a reader genuinely wanting truthful information it is boring and they are not likely to continue to view it. The multitude of posts, in many places, regarding the "What The Bleep" movie are a prime example. There are few posts on that subject matter that are HONEST. I personally listened to William Arnzt give a talk at RSE in 2005. People accuse JZ/RSE funding the movie. Wiiliam stated that he funded it from the millions he made out of selling computer businesses. He stated he wrote out all the checks and yet many posters put it as if it were financed by JZ Knight/RSE. There is also an abundance of boring opinions of those who are against Ramtha/JZ because of what they witnessed on the movie without knowing anything about the teachings whatsoever and using subjective, personality assessment as a weapon. It is in the best interests of all to remain OBJECTIVE. | ||
| david_mccarthy Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.117.76 |
Voidgate.. Thank you for the reminder. RSE is especially skilled in destroying a student’s ability for objective thought and the ability to disseminate fact from fiction. This is one of the reasons why so few students are speaking out, It is because they cannot…. Students are taught “assimilated” to surrender their hearts and minds.. all for the Promise of “enlightenment”. Letting go of ‘enlightenment” is a mighty challenge.. And I salute you all for tearing the mask away. The truth will bring JZ Knight down. David | ||
| teigh New member Username: teigh Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.139.26.252 |
Wow. After reading that, it changed my viewpoint of this forum to the fact that I believe I'm in the wrong place. I was looking for objectivity. True objectivity and open minded speculation. However, after reviewing the once informative posts, I realized it more a negatively skewed viewpoint. There is a lot to be explored about Ramtha/JZ/RSE but without interogation and debate, nothing will surface. Maybe nothing ever will. Honesty does not make for truth. Fact does make for truth but even then fact is subject to observation. We are dealing with a "phenomenon" of channeling which to a certain degree can not be pinpointed factually until a) Ramtha comes clean, b)Someone blantantly debunks her/him, c) we die and find out the 'truth'. What you might call "boring opinion", which is quite a pompous statement to me, may be someone's reality. Reality after all is SUBJECTIVE. For every person mentioned in these posts that had a bad experience, there may be thousands who had good ones. But a visitor would never know that. After looking at the forum from that perspective, I doubt many RSE students would even think of opening up on this forum because its unwelcoming to a believer who is trying to open up. It would be more welcoming to those student if they saw a community which openenly debates points and respects other peoples "boring opinions". Even when someone quote a fact 'incorrectly' because of their own limited experience (eg - what the bleep posts... ), it would be more constructive to point it out in the post with factual reference (ie its on the what the bleep site) rather than dismiss the person's opinion. This would help the person to better understand the reality they are observing. I have found at least two people here who are willing to debate and at least have a small laugh about the situation since, after all, noone has the true answers. I went back and noticed the post of someone asking if they should go to a beginner's retreat and found the answer diminished students to nothing but poor starving people who "rip off" others. Maybe that person was loaded and could care less about the financial commitment. Maybe it was worth mentioning what the *lessons* were actually like instead of just the seathing poverty to look forward to. Mother Theresa devoted her life to a church and a vow of poverty and she's someone to look up to IMHO. Goes to show its not what is done with the money but what is done with life. The point is that reality is subjective and noone's opinion is any better than anyone elses. And facts are only as good as the subjective eyes through which they have been observed. No matter how objective people may think they are, we are all subject to our own pre-conceptions and experiences. At one point some of you had a different view of reality. At that time it was your truth. Now your truth might be something different. Maybe tomorrow it will change again. | ||
| teigh New member Username: teigh Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.139.26.252 |
I will say the same thing I said to my friend who served in Somalia when he asked if *I* had ever been there in order to prove his point was superior: How long ago since you've been there? I say this because it is important to remain OBJECTIVE and keep in mind things change. As was factually stated in a RSE workshop that I attended within the last few weeks.... the RSE is looking to evolve and remain current. I believe it was Mike Wright who said it. It is not the same teachings as 10 years ago. And who knows if the school admin will change. The only way to know is to either observe it first hand or believe second hand information. *That* is the truth. Too bad this place isn't more open to actually discussing the situation and objectively analyzing it. It really could have been a communal point where all students past, present, future and disbelievers could debate. Perhaps its not the FactNET purpose, but I guarantee that that kind of open communication will help fence-sitters cross over knowing there is a community willing to be open and embrace them. But ,hey, i just have a psyche degree... I will pop in to see if there is anything of interest and to remain objective but my reality has changed. May you all find what truth you seek and be happy in you life.  David and whatcha, if you're interested in open discussion or philosophy about this topic, feel free to drop me a line. ba.nancy@gmail.com | ||
| david_mccarthy Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.117.76 |
teigh There is truth............... I have experienced a universal truth… beautiful beyond measure that cannot be bought or sold or manipulated by fickle minds. Contention is bound to happen on this forum; we are dealing with the deepest of human convictions and vulnerabilities… The medicine of this forum may taste bitter at times but..it will help with the healing. Much better that than sweet”n poisonous.. Please don’t go.. I will miss my cup of teigh... David | ||
| whatchamacallit Intermediate Member Username: whatchamacallit Post Number: 112 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 71.235.182.97 |
teigh and david, david: i love your sweet words ! "i will miss my cup of teigh." awww... teigh: i agree - don't go. david is correct in pointing out that contention is bound to occur from time to time. we really are dealing with profoundly deep issues here. some of us have been so affected in a negative way that we don't ever know that we'll fully recover. i am working very hard to get on with my life, but i also have an emotional scar from the spiritual rape that it is my opinion, i experienced. i know so many others who won't post on here, who have walked similar paths. they are so crushed and betrayed that the very foundation of what they believe is shattered. then you become skittish and cynical. maybe i should have been those things going IN to RSE, and it wouldn't have taken me so long to get out. whatever - what's done is done. i must move forward and make the best of my life and be glad for what i do have. there have been a number of students who, through the years, have died due to their faith of mastership arriving any minute (healings, wealth, etc). others, one fairly recent, have committed suicide. while i would never do that, nor have any inclination to - i can understand what would drive them to that level of "giving up". many of us who have left, have questioned what in_the_zone addressed (i read the post and can't respond now - next few days are busy here), the lack of warmth. that is encouraged. it's a sign of great weakness to show ANY emotions. we're taught to get rid of emotions and that they are not to be trusted at all. i heard both the teacher and jz say that those that died in the tsunami deserved it, because if they were worthy of life - they would have been in touch with nature and known it was coming - and that the animals knew, but the stupid people did not. how anyone in the UNIVERSE can be so cold hearted and hateful toward another being, eludes me. that was one of the major events for me, that started my push out the door. i could go on...and on. some things i have seen and heard i am just not even emotionally ready to discuss. | ||
| voidgate Member Username: voidgate Post Number: 87 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 144.138.162.206 |
PART ONE Teigh, David McCarthy and Whatchamacallit and I have each had almost 20 years of experience of a combination of attending RSE and applying the tuition, living in the local community surrounding RSE, living overseas and another USA state and having constant communication with students current and non-current. Our experiences over long duration of involvement are similar. Our summaries of what is occurring are based upon that long-term involvement, not a brief experience. I do not embellish what I write in order to influence another's opinion. If I do not know something as fact I do not write it as such. I omit anything I have heard from other people that could not be sufficiently substantiated. I know David and Whatcha's postings are truthful because I know what goes on at RSE. There is almost no information available at all on the internet regarding what truly goes on at advanced events and in the lives of long-term students. I have posted what I have experienced in order that those who WANT the other side of the picture of what goes on at RSE have some information available. Many students that have not attended right from the inception of the school are totally unaware of things that have happened in the course of the history of RSE. You consider this type of posting as "negatively skewed". It is a cult website and the type of postings on it are very unlikely to accommodate your desire for a debate. I myself have no doubt about what I have experienced, or witnessed and I am certainly not going to try to convince someone that it is beneficial to attend. | ||
| in_the_zone New member Username: in_the_zone Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 71.56.236.247 |
Gee, it just struck me with the last posting from voidgate that this is a website to provide information on cults. My postings have been mostly about experiences not necessarily related to RSE in terms of exposing a cult. Should I limit my postings to providing a viewpoint as to what goes on at RSE specifically? | ||
| voidgate Member Username: voidgate Post Number: 88 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 144.138.162.206 |
PART TWO If you want "positive" input about RSE there are a lot of places that will provide it. If you do a Google search you will find groups that will be willing to tell you just how beautiful the teachings are. If you enjoy reading posts where the writers state something as fact and there is no substantiation behind the statement there are lots of avenues available for you. The writers are untruthful. They could say, " I have a suspicion that JZ Knight/RSE funded the movie but in actuality I have not investigated it." There are many writers who target someone on how their face, or body looks . Have they bleached their hair? Are they wearing too much mascara? Are they too fat? Is their voice too husky? A truthful evaluation of their actions is absent. It would appear that you have a preference for accommodating this type of writing. I do not. I do recommend you do things the way that YOU want to if you do not agree with someone else's viewpoint. It is your life after all. You quite clearly cannot evaluate my posts as truthful, nor presumably others. It appears from what you have posted that you have had very little experience, or observance first hand, nor much direct contact with those involved. Debating with others who give you "positive" input will still not give you "truth".....direct experience. You may get another's evaluation but you will still not have the security of knowing for yourself. Whose opinion will you choose and what criteria will you use to make the choice? You appear to enjoy Mike Wright. He has regularly been on a radio program called "Beyond The Ordinary". People can ask him questions. If you want to know about the disciplines it is far better to ask an authorised teacher of RSE. The RSE organisation is expert at convincing people who have had little involvement just how wonderful the teachings really are. There are many students who do not want any negative input that might cause them to doubt. It very much looks like RSE has to offer what you are wanting. If you attend it is quite probable you will feel euphoric. As you cannot evaluate anything on this site as factual, or truthful, it would seem to me that the best avenue for you is to get thoroughly involved in the teachings so that you know TRUTH for yourself. | ||
| david_mccarthy Member Username: david_mccarthy Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.117.76 |
It is we who placed "Ramtha" on his throne.. It was us that turned a blind eye.. Together we fed the fear.. And handed over our lives and wellbeing.. even of our children.. Into the hands of a bitter sociopath.. For this my spirit was crushed.. But the heart cannot be broken Only forgotten.. For awhile. Forgive me... Forgive us… Great Spirit. We…. will bring an end to the RSE madness.. David | ||
| voidgate Member Username: voidgate Post Number: 89 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 144.138.162.86 |
In The Zone, This section of FACTNet is primarily concerned with Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. That is obvious. The subheadings on the main menu come up on search engines if someone is looking for information on Ramtha's School of Enlightenment and/or Cults. If you want discussions that are extensively about other topics, that are not directly related, you would probably get a better discussion from those specifically interested in your preferences. There may be other discussion groups that accommodate your interests far greater than this one does. Maybe if someone on this site really enjoys your interests you could also communicate in private. Perhaps you could answer your own question by asking yourself one....... "If I am looking for information on a search engine and I find a link I consider suitable would I like it if the majority of the information is on different topic altogether?" (Message edited by voidgate on July 01, 2006) | ||
| journeythroughramthaland Junior Member Username: journeythroughramthaland Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.185.144.178 |
PART ONE: Hi Teigh, I would like to address some of the comments you made in your posts. "Honesty does not make for truth. Fact does make for truth but even then fact is subject to observation. We are dealing with a "phenomenon" of channeling which to a certain degree can not be pinpointed factually until a) Ramtha comes clean, b)Someone blantantly debunks her/him, c) we die and find out the 'truth'. " hon·est P Pronunciation Key (nst) adj. Marked by or displaying integrity; upright: an honest lawyer. Not deceptive or fraudulent; genuine: honest weight. Equitable; fair: honest wages for an honest day's work. Characterized by truth; not false: honest reporting. Sincere; frank: an honest critique. Of good repute; respectable. Without affectation; plain: honest folk. Virtuous; chaste. I really did not get your statement about Honesty, I guess because I assumed you were using an every day definition of the word. i have posted a definition here, just to make sure we are both using the word in the same context. If you have another definition (your subjective reality) and would like to share it, I would be interested in hearing it. You said "until Ramtha comes clean" he/it/she already has, he/she/it has already said that it will lie when necessary. Since one never knows when "it is necessary, one has no way of putting trust or faith in what he/she/it says as being honest. You say until someone blatently debunks him/her I don't know what your definition of debunked is, but persons having witnessed JZ practicing her ramtha act, the fact that no one can hold either Ramtha or JZ accountable for anything because they have set it up that way. This goes some distance in debunking her/him/it Then you say "until we die and find out the truth". I do not know of any concrete evidence that when one dies, one finds out the truth, though there is much evidence that if one is willing to look at things that might be uncomfortable for them to consider one has a good possibility of finding the truth while they are still alive and can make some use of it. | ||
| journeythroughramthaland Junior Member Username: journeythroughramthaland Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.185.144.178 |
PART TWO: "Too bad this place isn't more open to actually discussing the situation and objectively analyzing it. It really could have been a communal point where all students past, present, future and disbelievers could debate. Perhaps its not the FactNET purpose, but I guarantee that that kind of open communication will help fence-sitters cross over knowing there is a community willing to be open and embrace them. But ,hey, i just have a psyche degree..." You seem to have determined the fate of this site by speaking in the past tense. In my opinion, this is one of the most open and accepting boards of discussion on this subject around. You are sincerley welcomed even though your views may be questioned. If you have the willingness to engage in the debate that you seem to desire I am sure you will gain some knowledge from your participation. You are correct that it is not the purpose of FActnet to gain converts of the "fencesitters" . Just a place to discuss experiences from those who feel they have been effected by groups which have an authoritarian bent, and discussions of the controversy surrounding them Since you have a psyche degree, I would think that you would understand that however bizarre someones beliefs are there are factors which lead them to those beliefs. For myself this is the more important factor in the discussions. "Even when someone quote a fact 'incorrectly' because of their own limited experience (eg - what the bleep posts... ), it would be more constructive to point it out in the post with factual reference (ie its on the what the bleep site) rather than dismiss the person's opinion. This would help the person to better understand the reality they are observing. " Here is some factual references that i would like to point out with regard to control of information and keeping contradictory information out. You will note that you will not be censored here for your opinions or views. JZ's original chat room was open to the public (her choice) when the time came that questions were being posed which caused a threat to her control and raised doubt in some of the students, she closed it down. Similarly, the what the bleep site had its own forum in the beginning. when they were not getting the responses they liked, they too simply closed it down and most of the posts went into the wastebasket void of cyberspace deleteville. I guess you can see where I am going with this. If you have another place where you feel discussions of this topic are delt with equally as fair as here or better, please let me know. I hope you continue to contribute to the debate. | ||
| hoola Member Username: hoola Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.125.85.168 |
If you think about it, the problem is very simple with cults, YOU CAN NOT SERVE TWO LORDS... at some point you must walk away or BE a slave to others the rest of your life. What I now understand is, when you get your own act together, you will never again FOLLOW, Be a slave, or worship anyone or anything OUTSIDE of SELF.... The Catch 22 about our own personal growth is, there is a natural DESIRE to EXPRESS our life someway... EXPRESS what we have learned... EXPRESS what we know... to pass on our life experiences to other... the funny thing is, we are not our brothers keeper either, and perhaps there is value to ALL who get caught up in cults. Even thought there is a very DARK side of these RANBOWS... I can personally find VALUE in my interaction with Ramtha and Mafu. The nature of the human ego is to alway LOOK TO OTHERS... or TO THE HEAVENS... or TO SOMEONE or SOMETHING that is GRATER THAN SELF... for me, after my years with many types of group, it has thrown me BACK to myself... WITHIN. Perhaps these cults were exactly what I needed at the time... I know, I do not SEE these groups from the samve point of view as I once did.... I can personally say that, my greatest personal experiences came ALWAYS when I was AWAY from them all, allone within myself... not worshiping anyone, or doing C & E.. just BEING very quiet alone within myself. I can say, that because of the personal TRAMA from my parents, Mafu, was more like the PARENT I did not have, the person who BELIEVED in me and my more mystical parts. But this relation also changed... after 10 years. As I vew any of the more recent things, I realized long ago, I had personally MOVED BEOYOND it all.. I no longer fit in, and it was a good thing. I grew up and became a WHOLE Person. Perhaps it is only when we move beyond these types of groups that we are able to be SELF-REALIZED of what they were for us. I do not HATE my past, for me, it was not that kind of energy, it is more like, that is what I needed at that time, and now, nothing outside of myself FILLS ME.... I am FILLED within myself now... and I can see CLEARLY what these types of groups are. Truly, the problem seems to be, as humans expressing our human or humans expressing our divine nature, someone will not agree or like what we have to say, even on this message board, we do not totally agree with everone... perhaps it is not about joining and agreeing, it is about our own expansion into beging a WHOLE PERSON.... Self-Responsible.... living our life as a WHOLE PERSON. ALLOWING it all just to be... the good, bad and ugly. I do enjoy the many various points of view... it does feel good now to be totally honest and EXPRESS it and not withhold out of FEAR or SHAME that you will make someone unhappy. One thing about being in a cult, people will QUIETLY ••••• about it, BEHIND the TEACHERS BACK, NOT being honest with self or others, because SELF EXPRESSION is not really allowed in cults. If you are HONEST... the group does not allow you to QUESTION... becuase the GURU or Illuminated One KNOW BEST... and how dare you EXPRESS your honest questions. You either agree that you are an arragont ••• and supress your opinion and play the game; or you have the courage to speak up, and in that, you MUST move on, for they will tell you the LOVE is gone... but is it really, TRUE LOVE is being honest, being FREE to express... not supress your self expression. You can be honest and still have Love. This is the Catch 22. Chop Wood, Carry Water, Mind your own Business. Smiles (Message edited by Hoola on July 27, 2006) (Message edited by Hoola on July 27, 2006) | ||
| whatchamacallit Intermediate Member Username: whatchamacallit Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 71.235.182.97 |
If we want to have a forum to communicate in, and only be able to do so according to a consensus agreement (no free thinking allowed), then we all ought to go join RSE. We can have our thinking done for us, and be assimilated into their program of "social consciousness". I see nothing wrong with disagreeing. I see something wrong with being disrespectful when disagreeing. Attacking someone who doesn't agree with our standard and view of reality, isn't complimentary to the attacker. That's my two cents. |
