| Author | Message | ||
     nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 587 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.128.52.9 |
I am writing on very limited time at a public library in Madison Wi. I have moved back to my folks to clear my head and relax. I dont intend on doing anymore "Community shopping" for some time. I have health issues I must deal with. Physical, mental and spiritual. Im going to be still and Know He is God. He knows where I am if He wants to get ahold of me. So for now, Im going to listen to David for awhile and he says "take a break!". I should have my computer set up in a few days or so and I will give an assessment of RCV at that time. I will try my hardestto be objective. I realise there is no such thing as a utopian community and all have their plusses and minuses. I also realise now that community or rather multi-family dwelligs is not for me. Selfish? I dont think so.... Stay tuned... | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 110 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Thank you David for continuing to keep us aprised of your spiritual journey. You are an inspiration to us all. I say best of luck in your future endeavors but it seems you no longer need it. You have come to a place that is thoughtful and accepting-relish your peace and spread it out in the world! peace, spike | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 387 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
Hi David, I have found that all here on these boards who have hoped in community as a final answer to spiritual fulfilment, have been eventually let down, and those who are still barking up that tree are experiencing the problems associated with denial. The point is as you say community is not a utopia. we must bring to the table the things that will cause us fulfilment, rather than expecting others to present those things to us. A relationship with God cannot be had second hand, otherwise all we know about Him is hearsay. I do admire your tendency towards cheerfulness, and expect you to return to that place of trust once again soon. "If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those 2 imposters both the same." | ||
| anon_e_mus Intermediate Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 466 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.204.213.234 |
wow... well said. | ||
| anon_e_mus Intermediate Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 467 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.204.213.234 |
wow... well said. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 598 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 198.150.40.60 |
I still am blessed with a strong faith and that whatever happens its Gods will and I need to learn something... I always go back to AAs definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I suppose I should try something different!LOL! | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 4.254.219.94 |
David - Was your decision to leave RCV your own? Or were you sent away? Or was it something of a mutual decision? Would you now categorize RCV as a cult, as you do the Tribes? Do you regret becoming a recruiting mouthpiece for RCV from day one of your arrival? Or will you continue to recommend the place to former TT'ers and sincere seekers of a common life? - John | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 599 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 198.150.40.60 |
Im still waiting for my DSL. I cant properly answer that with my limited time but I will say "Caveat emptor"... | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 601 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
OK, I just got DSL so I'll have some time to address John Ss post but that will have to wait till tomorrow, but in the meantime, check these out... http://www.christinyou.net/pages/godhatesrel.html http://www.articledepot.co.uk/article-36054.htm | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 602 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
Before I answer John S read this... http://www.neirr.org/s7-aber2.html Its Liftons list tailored to "Christian" groups. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 603 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
John_S "Was your decision to leave RCV your own? Or were you sent away? Or was it something of a mutual decision?" It was my decision and "Abba" (yuck!) stressed the point that they try and talk no one into staying. They said (the elders Noah, Chasaq and Nathaniel, Shammah wasnt there. He is more of their spokesperson and religious academia expert, not a people person.ie "shepherd") that if I had somewhere else to go and had any doubts about them then I should go. They said I needed to be"clear" about staying their. "Clear" is one of their "cult-speak" phrases. "Clear" could also be translated as submitted to your brother or surrendered. I watched a cute movie yesterday which I believe was God sent(uh oh! Now I sound like RCV and LOTR! LOL!) that really gave me some peace to where Im at now. In one point of the movie the lead character gives a talk at a school and explains how he is an addict. Not of drugs or alcohol, but of "ecstasy of submission"! It really hit home. I have given up my other addictions(well I still smoke a little...) and had taken up this other addiction, this quest to submit to God through others and pay penance for my sinful life!(Catholic upbringing?) Well, Im glad I put my foot down and realised I wasnt submitting to God but to "Abba" and his "to busy to shepherd" elders. For a week straight I had sent emails to them(cept Noah, he cant be bothered, also you cant get an audience with any of them cuz they are so busy keeping their industries afloat. I had to IM Shammah in a office next to me to talk with him because he is not to be disturbed. That talk ended up with the same old "your being selfish and proud and your not accepting your portion" speech.)I was struggling with my physical ailments, fatigue, depression(symptoms of my hep C) and my chronic back pain.( the rcv boys think its all due to my struggle with single life. Well it could have a little to do with it and the way the single moms are their, they wouldnt now how to pay attention to a man cuz they think they are married to Yahshua, adore "Abba", and sure wouldnt want to give up their sovereignty to a mere man! Hell, they got it made! Then at the meeting Noah pulled the "fear" card and said "Dont forget So-and-So!!!" So-and-So lived here with his mom, turned his back on "God", left for the "world" and got in a car accident which paralysed him from the waist down and now is back under their care. He's strung out on narcotic pain-relievers and smokes and they are trying, soon to demand, he quits, or else.... Good luck! You see, they dont have the practice of the TT to where your "cut-off" from the body where your there only in body. The rest of you is "shunned", so if your not sure or "un-clear" or confused, you have to leave for fear its contagious. Seriously! Then Noah asked me what my decision was. I told him I was going through a tug-of war and couldnt come to one yet. So he said "let me make it easier for you. I know youve been in contact with women outside of the community on the computer so if you decide to stay there will be NO computer for you, PERIOD! Funny thing is, it wasnt the loss of using the computer that bothered me or helped me make that decision, it was his authoritarian leadership power play that bugged me. HE was in control of everyone and what he says goes. I know he is partial to his role of matchmaker so who was I to bring in players not under his coaching? Would you now categorize RCV as a cult, as you do the Tribes? Honestly, yes it does fit some of Liftons criteria but it isnt quit as high control as the TT. TT gets top rank on that scale | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 604 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
Do you regret becoming a recruiting mouthpiece for RCV from day one of your arrival? I regret nothing. I can always re-cant. Or will you continue to recommend the place to former TT'ers and sincere seekers of a common life? If thats what your looking for, its the "freest" community Ive seen but its lost its intimacy through shear numbers and logistics and economics. No matter what group you go to, there will always be the demand of complete submission and surrender to the group. I now realise thats not what I want or need. Selfish? Nah... Im am submitted to God and this is where He has me now. So I intend to be still, and let go, and let Him do His part... No matter how close you live next to your brother there is a space that you possess which was never meant to be in-common with others. That space is yours!!! It is you! God gave it to you! Cherish it and protect it! Share it with God but never surrender, lose, or give it to another man. | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 932 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi Naba, thank you for sharing all of this. The part where they used the story of 'look what happened to so and so' rings so true and is still a common card CoJ uses. UCK! hmmmm. sounds like you have been down quite a road of discovery. I liked the comparison you made regarding addiction. This is a key element I think that is common with these communities. Unhealthy addictions tend to be replaced with another addiction, addiction to the group, but people are thinking it is devotion to God. It's that all or nothing obsessive behavior which gets transferred....could be a very interesting topic for discussion. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 605 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
Hey DT! I suppose thats what I should be going through right now! Withdrawals! LOL! It reminds me of one time I was going to Fl. to check myself into a drug and alcohol program and the girl on the bus asked me where I was going and I said to a Christian Re-hab. And she said "Yeah, I know its really hard to give up religion!" ROTFLMAO!!!! | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 606 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
OMG!!! This so me its scary!!! http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/addictionnew.htm | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 607 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
I got permission to post this email from a very good friend of mine who has been following my journey as they travel their own. I hope our paths cross some day soon... "I think that the problem is that you and I and alot of those people on factnet are looking for something different then what we think we are looking for.....I think we are all disgusted with this system of things and are all disappointed that no matter what we do or what we obtain, we are not happy. We can all work our "balls" off and still have nothing really to show for it. Not only on the outside but on the inside also. The world is getting worse and we can't change it by whatever size effort we make to do so. It stays the same and we barely make a sliver of difference in it's ungodly slew of problems that it throws out that we all must contend with. I think we all want things to go back to the way it was before the 60's, when God meant something and there were actually families with mothers and fathers and grandparents and aunts and uncles, etc. We sort of all want it to be like "The Waltons" again. We want to give and receive love. We want someone to run to when we hurt. We want to feel we are part of something and feel the security of being part of something larger than the way we are living now, having to live and function solely by ourselves or with one or two others. We are afraid. We are lonely. We are looking for direction. That is why people drink, take drugs, smoke, have casual sex, etc. That is why people accept and worship the human "Abbas" of this world. They are looking for "IT", but "IT'S" not in any of those things. "IT'S" inside ourselves. We just have to listen to that small voice that is really God's voice talking to us. He knows where "IT" is for each of us and wants us to find it while we journey on this earth. It is hard to believe in something or someone we can't physically touch and see. But just like electricity, we must always believe that God is with us always, even if his presence can't be physically seen. We don't need a human substitute like the "Noah's" in this world to worship and guide us, like the Jews felt they needed that golden calf when Moses was alittle late coming back down the mountain  .. We must believe in the things that can't be seen, but can be felt in our hearts if we just open them up alittle by doing service to others. I think we need to be involved in something that benefits others much worse off than ourselves so we can feel we are truly making a small scuff mark on this huge floor we call "life". I am not sure what we should do or become a part of, but I know we need to literally "get our hands dirty" doing the work of God and what He would have us do with these physical bodies he endowed us with. cont.... | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 608 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
continued from above... I don't think intentional communities where people feed each other's egos is the right answer. Maybe Mother Theresa had the right answer after all....There is a reason why God sent us down here and it wasn't to collect the most toys and then die. When I die, I want to know with my last breath that I tried to make things better for someone, whether I succeeded or not, at least I want to be able to know I tried. Dancing around in a circle holding hands singing gospel songs just doesn't cut it...We need to do more. Instead of worrying about what community we fit into, maybe we need to fit ourselves into doing a part of God's work out in the community of God's creations?. Lord knows there is so much we can do all around the world and here in this country also. Maybe that "good feeling" we are all searching for will finally be ours to claim knowing we at least made this life alittle better for one other person in need. Maybe we will find that one small act of charity was our whole reason for being here? God uses each of us as his instruments. Sometimes we have to go through the fire to be cleansed and to get us ready for the work God has planned for us. For each of us, the "fire" will be different, but we will all pass through it eventually. Poverty, drunkenness, drug abuse, immorality, mental illness, etc, are all "fiery" lessons that make us more sensitive to those very same issues in others we will meet along this trip God has sent us on called "Life". Even how we choose to handle our own "dying process" when the time comes might just be the "answer to prayer" someone facing the very same issue needed at the time. We are not the "Borg" on Star Trek and need a "leader". We already always had a strong leader. His name is God! No mortal man can replace him. Not even "Abba" or the Pope . We all bleed, we all feel pain, we all eventually die in the physical sense and render our human physical bodies useless. We are mere mortals! All of us! No exceptions! I hope I made some sense at all. Just the way I feel." | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 609 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
Wow! I forgot to tell you all how I finally got their attention and audience! I guess bad attention is better then none, right? I had convinced my self with the help of a friend there that I could get away with a glass of wine here and there. The weekend of the wedding they just recently had there came up. I struggle with weddings and this one just so happened to land on Fathers day. Another of my worse self loathing days of the year. So the night before they have a celebration of the marriage to come(a little odd) and I had a glass of wine and decided I wasnt going because I didnt feel like it and I didnt really have faith in the couple getting married. So I kept drinking, right into Sun and didnt go to the wedding. I wrote the elders a letter expressing my true feelings? En vino veritas!!! Thats how I finally got their attention.... Not the best way about it but it worked! Oh! And no, Im not back to drinking.... | ||
| anon_e_mus Intermediate Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 468 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.204.213.219 |
David, Your friend's letter is very truly powerful, moving and inspirational. Thank you and him for sharing it. A | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 610 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
Who said it was a him? | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 611 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
Well, he/she wrote me another and I cant help but cut and paste it here. Maybe I can coax them into jumping in here themselves. So this one is for all us walmart folks here on fact net. I know Im one! "You know, what you wrote about "addictions" and their connection to people who join certain intentional communities brings back a memory of something very similiar, but in the corporate world...Walmart. I worked at Walmart for a couple of years out of desperation, and I noticed something about the people Walmart hires. They are people who would have trouble getting jobs anywhere else. The old, the handicapped, the person out of the work force for too long, the mentally unbalanced, etc. The reason they hire those kinds of people is very interesting too. People like that (including me at the time) are very grateful to finally have found employment. They do what they are told without question. They accept whatever low wage or lack of benefits Walmart throws at them. When Walmart shows the movie to new hires on the first day about why unions are bad for them, they believe it and voice their opinions whenever the topic should come up. Makes you think that there is a strong connection between the above and the members of some intentional communities......Maybe a certain kind of person seeks out a lifestyle in an intentional community for the exact same reasons Walmart hires who they do? Maybe that is what creates new intentional communities and the "Abbas" that run them? I know this is sort of an insult to us all, but maybe we are all "Walmart People". People who have never been able to find our place in society and become so thankful when a "community" takes us in, feeds us, clothes us, tells us our responsibilities and shelters us from the rest of society. We become "Walmart People". We don't question for fear of being forced to leave. We try very hard to fit in due to fear of never finding another place that will accept us. We dare not voice any concerns. We put on any uniform that the community says we have to wear. We worship their "Abba" like me and my fellow Walmart employees worshipped our Store Manager. They told us we had to sing inspirational chants each day, we sung them. They read us inspirational literature (Who moved my cheese) out loud at our daily meetings, we were to believe what is being read and apply it to ourselves. No one disagrees or refuses to attend these meetings, as they are mandatory. See any connection, David?" | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 612 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.140.197 |
"You see, all of us who yearn for intentional community are a group of people who for whatever reason, don't fit in to conventional society. We are people who are searching for those good feelings that come from large close-knit families, like "The Waltons" thing I mentioned earlier. We want the good feelings we missed out on or think we missed out on. We feel like rejects because we suffer from various problems that we just can't seem to "fix". Society looks at us cockeyed because we dare to think different. We dare to question, we dare to not attend those "mandatory meetings". We look around us and nobody we see resembles us. We search out people like ourselves.....we find them in community. We also find the Walmart Store Manager (Abba), because he needs people like us for two reasons. The first is of course, money. He needs little worker bees to make money for him so he doesn't have to go out there into the real world and put in 40 or 50 or 60 hours himself. Secondly, he probably suffers from a Narcissism Personality Disorder and feels he deserves to have his "worker bees" worshipping him and he "feeds" on their admiration, sometimes to the point of abuse of some kind or another, and he usually gets away with it, as those he abuses feel priveleged to be the source of his kindly and loving attentions. We all want God the Father here on earth to hold us and dry our tears, but for now, we settle for the "Abbas" who impress their "godliness" on the little "worker bees" and everyone gets what they want..some of the time. Eventually we learn that there is something missing in "Community" also, but we just can't put our finger on it....until we realize we are being kept like cattle and none of us are really feeling closer to the real God, but instead, feel like we are straying further from what we read in our bibles and that what we read doesn't necessarily jive with what the "Abbas" are telling us we should believe. Narcissists are very good at what they do as they believe everything they say and do to be the truth. Their feelings about themselves are true to them and in turn, they impress those "truths" to others, the little "worker bees". | ||
| anon_e_mus Intermediate Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 469 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.204.21.234 |
rdw...i hope ur listening.  | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 613 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.162.216 |
oooooooooh! Your askin for it! LOL! But seriously my friends. I do consider all of you as friends...(part of my disease is to keep friends at a distance. What better place then here! so who else here sees themselves described on that link?) http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/addictionnew.htm This link helped me to come to peace with "God". I dont need to find Him! He aint lost! And all I have to do to find Him is to look in me! Thats where He abides!!!! So allyall take a look! Inside yourself! He is in you and will never leave you nor forsake you! Yesterday is gone, tomorrow who knows? (man makes his plans and God giggles***tee hee***) So live in the moment cuz thats all your gauranteed! Carpe diem! | ||
| julieanne New member Username: julieanne Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 81.178.126.122 |
the section foundations for religious addiction describes me perfectly | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 614 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.162.216 |
Can I get a witness? Amen sister!!! Woo Hoo!! | ||
| johncolo_springs Intermediate Member Username: johncolo_springs Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.64.1.41 |
Nab said, "So allyall take a look! Inside yourself! He is in you and will never leave you nor forsake you! --------------- Amen! Col 1:27 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (NIV) I Jn 4:4 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. (KJV) ---------------- "Christ in you, the hope of glory" Glory! | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 665 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.226.188.39 |
Well, Im outa here for awhile... http://www.opendiary.com/entryview.asp?authorcode=D481089&entry=10054 | ||
| hope_20 Intermediate Member Username: hope_20 Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.147.137.30 |
Good for you for doing what's right for yourself. How is everybody? | ||
| hope_20 Intermediate Member Username: hope_20 Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.147.137.30 |
Naba, I haven't been around for a while, and was genuinely(sp)interested in RCV. Did you find that they do, in fact, have some cult qualities to their little group? | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 691 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.1 |
Im bringing this thread back to the top because Ive recieved several emails asking why I left RCV. I believe this thread holds the answer for them.... and yes they do have some cultic qualities but not as intense as rhe TT. | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1081 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.125.93.235 |
I realise there is no such thing as a utopian community and all have their plusses and minuses. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's also no such thing as a church or community... with the holy spirit working through it | ||
| bohemian65 New member Username: bohemian65 Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 69.115.216.120 |
naba, I have the utmost respect for you sharing your struggling journey with me and others. I know many things that you have said, and the letter from your friend that you shared, rings true with me. On the surface it would seem like a simple proposition that Christian men and woman could get together under a common goal of serving Christ in a Christian community. However, it just never seems to quite work out – for many reasons no doubt. I just don’t know of any that does not ultimately have some self appointed leader or leaders that feel that they are somehow more in touch with God to call all of the shots. When in reality they should be the most humble and very concerned about the “sheep” under their watch. It is very discouraging for a person trying to follow Christ because the majority of Churches are hollow and the so-called “Intentional-Christian-Communities” are taking advantage of people involved in this search. Now there may very well be some good solid communities out there – I just don’t know of them – and it would be impossible for me to visit all of them. Your friend stuck a good point in terms of helping others. Whoever is reading this – Do you know of any good volunteer organizations out there? If so who are they? When I looked into this many of them a person would have to pay to volunteer, which will not work for me. | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1084 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.127.212.170 |
I think if people just got together to fellowship God could work among them even if it's just two or three people together but when it turns into a church and tries to copy or obey the rules of being like the NT church than Satan rules. Even when people give their will entirely trusting another person they give their will to the devil | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.247.245 |
there is also an aspect of the human condition that prevails, the 'alpha' establishment. it exist in the animal kingdom as well and on various levels of plant and micro organism life. i have found it most prominent among the male gender, however, females are capable of an equally victorious or (the opposite end), viscious. especially when in defense mode of her young, her mate, any one or thing she considers 'her' responsibility or has been trusted with. in a religious/cult setting the alpha status is easily attained according to the level of ones manipulative controlling and usually charismatic disposition. in my healthiest relationships this is non existant or respected on the level of gift and knowledge of each individual. trust and love are in my experience the only factors that have the power to render the competitive alpha gene from destroying a relationship. it takes two or all parties involved being in agreement with this. respecting every individuals right and level of learning of course. patience, work and seeking understanding of anothers heart is priority. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 697 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.4 |
You definitely see this at RCV. The Alpha males rule while all others bare their neck to them... | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.247.107 |
naba, could you explain in a true life example? are all the men like this in leadership or only some of them? if i lived there and saw this happening, would i be a ble to address it and be heard? i have found over the years if i approach the right ones in leadership (those who sincerely rule in compassion and true care), with a problem and possible solutions in hand, i am heard and have seen them go out of their way to try the solution, not so much focusing on the problem. this i believe is a true sign of maturity in those with a gift to lead! | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 700 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.222.221 |
Im not saying Alphas are all bad. Its just that they take on more than they should and are spread too thin and neglect takes place. Now that I can see the picture from the outside, I see Noah as just another Yoneq. Proud, controlling and extremely passive and active aggressive. He dawns a cloak of false humility and meekness but there is a actually a very violent man hiding behind it. | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.246.28 |
naba, this is a very heavy judgement to make on another person though if that was your experience with noah then it is yours. i have met both yoneq and noah on seperate occassions. i sensed a completely opposite spirit from noah in comparison with yoneq. it is strange how we all differ in our senses of others. however, you did live with noah and may have gotten close enough to him personally to see such negative things. are you able to share what actions or circumstances took place that convinced you of his violence? i understand if not. it may bring you unnecassary pain to reherse. thank you for responding, mrs. chi | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 701 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.56 |
Heavy? Nah, "the truth will make you free!" Trust me, he is a powder keg and when he blows, it wont be pretty... If you where to see how he lives compared to the others, you would see a big difference. He doesnt work, has his own private porch off his room, two huge tvs and the only one in the village with cable, his own central A/C, and the best landscaping in the village. He's a pot-bellied ex-beach bum with the "gift-of-gab" and in my eyes, still a bum. He told me once that Yoneq was the most arrogant man he had ever met. Thats the pot calling the kettle black... David Taylor is just better at hiding it... A white-washed tomb that loves control and admiration... (He still wants to be called "Abba" no matter how many that causes to stumble.) Dont be fooled Mrs. Chi. Just a warning. | ||
| plow_deep Intermediate Member Username: plow_deep Post Number: 304 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.78.33.54 |
Greetings Nabashalam, In the RCV question thread, Shammah posted the following below: "We work 40-50 hours/week. The guys who have to commute pretty far work 40, and those closer work about 45. We also generally work at the village together on Saturdays, fixing up things, etc. That is usually about a 6-hour day." "If for some reason a brother can't work for us, we have him find a job outside the village. "We do have one full-time guy who works on the land. He gets help from teenage boys some afternoons (more in the summer), and there are a couple retired guys with retirement income who help around the land, too." You said this about Noah: "If you where to see how he lives compared to the others, you would see a big difference. He doesnt work, has his own private porch off his room, two huge tvs and the only one in the village with cable, his own central A/C, and the best landscaping in the village." So, how does Noah fit into Shammah's description of the village. You say he doesnt work, does he have an outside source of income such as retirement or disability? Do health reasons or age have anything to do with the central ac? If so, are all in the same need treated equally? Are you allowed to keep a portion of your incomes for personal things, such as cable expenses and (TV sucks) TV? Are expenses for the village shared in equal portions by those with incomes? I hope you dont mind the questions and thanks for your previous posts. Peace | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.247.145 |
plow_deep, good questions. i hope naba can answer soon. i have not lived among them though know several folks who have. one thing i have noticed as a big difference between tt and rcv is usually when people leave they remain friends with the group and are not slandered, nor is their character defamed. i know 7 people personally who although left rcv, they remain friends and are welcome back anytime whether for a visit or to make it home. 5 of the 7 are planning on going back at some point in the future. the most important thing to me is i find they are very open about their weaknesses, failures and are very open to explore and allow others the freedom to do the same. this alone sets them far apart from tt to me. when people visit tt they are blown away, swooning in the magic of the presentation given. only to find out later it is all for show. when i visit rvc or spend time with them, from the beginning, there was never the pretense, or secretive spirit and most impressive to me was just the plain old normalcy of interaction with eachother and those who visit. naba, next time i visit i am going to take note of the things you shared. maybe noah acts different with women and that is why i didn't get the same feeling you did, as he was not gabby at all with me. he seemed to be a good listener and very balanced in his judgement when i asked questions or presented personal conflict. to me he was very direct and honest in his answers and i was actually offended at some of his answers to my inner conflicts because at the time i did not want to hear the truth and wisdom he imparted. over time i searched my soul and found he was accurate and kind in his advice. the main thing was after talking with him i did not feel judged in anyway, whereas with yoneq i always felt like an underling and never making the grade of a true disciple. i shutter at the pressure i remember under the tt authority. i hope in rcv they do not suffer that horrible fear on the inside. i definitly saw a freedom there i never saw in tt, however the longest i ever spent on one of my visits was a week and i know that is not like living among them. i do not think i could ever live communally again, yet i support my friends who desire to. there is much i desire and miss of that life. who knows what kind of commune the future may produce for folks like me... in the meanwhile i am thankful to be able to visit different communities, it has been like a weaning after so long in the tt. thank you, mrs. chi | ||
| fav_son New member Username: fav_son Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 24.2.69.129 |
Hi everyone. I found this site unintentionally four days ago and found it very informative and interesting. I am a former RCVer. I lived there for about 1.5 years. Reading all the opinions and experiences related to RCV has been intriguing. I can definately understand naba's experience there and also mrs_chi's experience. I loved living there and absolutely loved everyone there and I mean everyone. | ||
| fav_son New member Username: fav_son Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 24.2.69.129 |
Hi everyone. I found this site unintentionally four days ago and found it very informative and interesting. I am a former RCVer. I lived there for about 1.5 years. Reading all the opinions and experiences related to RCV has been intriguing. I can definately understand naba's experience there and also mrs_chi's experience. I loved living there and absolutely loved everyone there and I mean everyone. | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 64 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.246.3 |
welcome fav-son! are you still in contact/visiting or considering going back? how long did you know them before you lived with them? how long have you been out?? thank you mrs. chi | ||
| kanghamtkd New member Username: kanghamtkd Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.2.69.129 |
Good morning everyone. This is fav_son. I don't know what's going on with factnet so I created a new account. I am not in contact with anyone at RCV. When I left, I was called by a close friend from RCV on the same day I left and was told that no one from RCV was to be in contact with me. Needless to say, it was a short conversation because I did not want my friend to be in trouble. I have not had contact with anyone since then other than Shammah by e-mail just a few time for income tax purposes and Nathanael once on the phone. By the way, I'm the Asian guy who taught Tae Kwon Do there. I thought I'd just tell you who I was so that I could honestly answer your questions. I knew them for about a month before me and my 2 best friends went to RCV for a 3 day visit. I loved it there and had already made up my mind to move there after the first visit. The only thing I had a doubt about was the fact that I had just shaved my head and that being Asian, I could not grow a beard. At the time, just about everyone adult male had a beard and a pony tail. So one of my first thoughts was, this may not be for me. My best friends both had beards. Fortunately, after a few months after I had moved there, the subject of the pony tail and beard came up at the mens meeting and most of us felt that the pony tail and beard thing was no longer part of the present and future . That day alot of the men and boys cut their pony tails and I decided let my hair grow out. The 3 of us went back for another visit a month later and stayed for a week. This time we got to work, go to the mens meeting and a gathering while we were there. I loved the place and everyone there even more the second time and a month later, one of my best friend and I moved there for good. My other best friend and his wife came a few months later due to her work. Anyway, my best friends are still there, but I have not been allowed to have contact with them. I called one of them and his wife right after my Mother died 5 years after brain surgery and my Father's health was deteriorating. At that time I need someone to talk to so I called them and left a message on the voice mail. A couple of days later, I get a call from Nathanael instead of my best friends I called. I was already in alot of pain due to my mother death and then my father passed away 2 months later and I wanted to talk to my 2 best friends, but I get one of the leaders from RCV. He tells me "you understand why they couldn't call you." I understood exactly why. He asked me if he could do anything for me and I said no and that was that. Good bye. I have been out for about 1.5 years. After leaving RCV, both my parents passed away after battling long time illnesses. Mother had a brain tumor and was in a nursing home for 4 years until she passed away last August. My father died 2 months later after 5 years of dialysis. Now I have a Tae Kwon Do school with my younger brother and things are going well and I've met some people about 2 months ago and we are beginning to share our lives together and have had a few formal meetings about planning a community. I just realized how much I wrote so I think I will leave it at that for now. I just want to say that I loved my time at RCV and I love all of them still. They are amazing in that they are constantly changing and evolving and I trust that they will continually do that because of the fact that they try everyday to listen to god's voice. I've seen god change them. | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 65 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.247.203 |
kanghamtkd, i really appreciate you sharing so much of your personal life, thank you. again, welcome! do you think it was/is your friends personal choice to not have contact with you? i am hard pressed to believe they would not have been 'allowed' to call as a couple years ago there was a man who was causing alot of division and asked to leave and the leaders said no one should contact him but a couple folks had a burden for him and said they still wanted to stay in touch. from what i understand it was not well recieved yet contact was in no way prevented. my friends there were allowed to keep contact and from what i could tell were not treated differently or made to feel bad for going against the advice of leadership. personal choice is very important in any religious communal life unless it impedes upon moral values. as soon as i see personal choice hindered or being smothered in the name of god or doctrine i also see a bigger than life red flag that says, "DO NOT GO THERE!" if it's ok to ask were are you located at this time? and, what type of commune are you considering? natural foods/organic, farming, health, religion..etc..?? thank you! mrs. chi | ||
| kanghamtkd New member Username: kanghamtkd Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.2.69.129 |
"do you think it was/is your friends personal choice to not have contact with you?" I'm pretty sure this is what happened. After my friends heard the message I'd left them on the voice mail, they told one of the leaders. It probably went something like this. "Hey I got a message from Ben and he wants to talk to me. I want to do what God wants, what do you think?" And the decision was made that Nathanael would call me. Nathanael basically said to me, I'm sorry for what's going on with you, and I'm calling because Charlie(one of my friends who went to RCV with me) just wants to do what's right by God. You can understand that can't you? Those are the exact words but I basically understood why. I don't believe they just down right told him he should not contact me, but Gods way probably would be to have one of the leaders call me. That's what I feel happened. "i am hard pressed to believe they would not have been 'allowed' to call" All I can say to that is on the day that I decided to leave, that same day there was a gathering planned and at the gathering, the news was broadcast to everyone that I had left. After the gathering, one of my good friends that I made while I was there called me to ask me why I left. I just told my friend that I'm sure it's probably not a good idea that you called me for fear of my friend getting into trouble. My friend told me that at the gathering, the announcement was made that no one was to contact me, but my friend called me anyway to ask me why I left. I told my friend I did not what to get you into trouble and I didn't want you to be battling with your conscience because you went against the leader's will. That was the last contact I had with anyone there other than the Shammah and Nathanael for reasons I mentions before. "a couple years ago there was a man who was causing alot of division and asked to leave" I don't think that person was me. I don't think I was causing division. Maybe they thought I did I dont know. I should clear up something before I go on. I did not leave in the sense that I packed up and left. I was visiting my children and my ill parents one weekend and a single brother from the village went with me for the weekend. The morning I woke up to head back to RCV, I was ready to head out the door. Then all of a sudden I felt something come over me in an instant and I sat down on the couch and told my single brother from RCV, "I'm not going back." I just could not do it anymore. That weekend, I had the warmest conversation with my father and I told him "Dad I think this is the closest I have ever felt to you in my whole life, atleast my adult life." He said, "I think your right Ben," and I told him I loved him and we both cried hugging eachother. I knew his health was deteriorating fast. So that Sunday morning to head back to RCV, I just could not do it anymore. I just could not leave him. My father adopted me from Korea when I was living in a Korean orphanage at 6 years old. So technically, I did not "leave" I just didn't go back. If the leaders are talking about me as the man that caused division and left, then that really pains my heart because I know that that's not what I did there. I lived in Nathanael and Noah's house from day one for at least a year until us single guys remodeled an older home and moved into it. They knew me, and I can honestly say that ever yone in the village knew exactly who I was. I lived there open and free and I gave as much as I could give. | ||
| kanghamtkd New member Username: kanghamtkd Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.2.69.129 |
I was teaching tae kwon do and also teaching math to the teenagers. In about a span of 8 months there were 110 people in the village doing tae kwon do on a consistent basis. When I first got there, I told the leaders I was not there to teach TKD. I was there to do God's will and do whatever I needed to do. And God knows I did that and I rest easy every night knowing that I did. The leaders came to me to ask me my thoughts on martial arts and I told them. We then agreed to let me teach it to 8 people first then we would open it up to the rest of the village if they wanted to do it. Within a few months over half the village was doing it and could have had more but we limited it to ages 9 and up. I thought it was enhancing peoples lives and thought it was being bless by God. I was getting to do the best thing I knew how to do and every one who was doing it seemed to love doing it too. Then all of a sudden abruptly, the leaders called me in and said that they felt like the village needed to take a break from it. There wasn't a village wide vote to see what everyone else thought. It just stopped on that day after the meeting. I went along with it and immediately took up other works that God had for me. Remodeling the single guys new house, working at the Impact Images warehouse, helping to remodel a shed into a bedroom, helping to finish remodeling another brother's house, working for Yachad Painting etc. Every day people would ask me when are we going to start tkd up again and I just said I don't know, when God says it's time again. I did feel like there was some jealousy from some of the people that was involved in the drumming group, Windance, and also Kula. I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but Windance and Kula sure grew after TKD was dropped. I just feel like TKD was the biggest thing from the outside that was ever introduced to the Village and eventually it caused people in those other things to feel some jealousy possibly and maybe that's what the division thing was all about. I'm just guessing because I don't know what division they are talking about if they are actualy talking about me. I did not go to RCV because I was running away from something. I went there because I felt that people truely loved one another and lived for each other and not just for me, myself and I. I didn't have a real history in religion. The longest I've ever consistantly went to church was for about 6 months until they started to get uncomfortable with me because I started to ask question that didn't make sense to me. I bought my first bible while I was in RCV. I can't argue theology with anyone. I don't even try. I just went there because I felt the love that the people had for one another. The same love I had for my friends, Steven, Charlie, and Cheryl who I met in Lawrence, KS that all ended up at RCV. I remember the first day we visited RCV, Steven and Charlie hashed out theology with Noah in the living room and I couldn't listen to it anymore and went into the other living room and peered out the window and watched the kids biking and playing outside and I had already made up my mind to move there just because I saw how happy and free the children were. I went there because I saw the freedom of the children, the love of the people, and how these people have evolved in every way since leaving Florida. Ha! So there is my abbreviated life at RCV. LOL! Wow, I had a quite a life there. Like I said I loved it there and loved everyone there. | ||
| kanghamtkd New member Username: kanghamtkd Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.2.69.129 |
I am in Salt Lake City now enjoying the mountains all year round. I am involved with some people who are interested in living together in a community. It's not based on religion. It's a hand full of people who just want to live together in a community. We are going to build energy efficient homes. Grow organic food to feed ourselves, and we are definitely into staying fit and healthy. It doesn't sound exciting, but it is. Watching a group of people having a desire to live and share their lives together and finding our way around to figure out what needs to be figured out to make it work. It's exciting and we're learning how to share our lives with each other in the process. | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.246.150 |
dearest ben, well, that is quite a story! very loving and kind, definitely heartfelt. i am very sorry for your fathers loss though rejoice at the closeness you were able to attain before he passed through this part of his journey.. i wonder why the folks at the rvc did not make more effort to comfort you, who were one of their own? personally this would hurt me greatly at such a time of loss and sadness and i admire your love for them even though it seems they were very insensitive to your sufferings. i mean if you were my brother(and somehow i feel you are), and we went to visit your dad and b4 we left you sat on the couch and said you needed to stay, i would hope that i loved you enough to inquire and help you search your heart and, i would want to stay with you until your mission of love and care was accomplished. if i couldn't stay, i would ask you if i could find some one to be with you and work those arrangements no matter how complicated. no worries ben, the man causing division that i was sharing about was most definitely not you! however, your insight on what may have occurred in your circumstances while you were there and after you left is very keen. very balanced and, i percieve most likely the case and truth. sooooo what exactly does keep up from returning to rvc if you don't mind me asking??? it sounds as though your heart is still there. i love how you see and define the good folks there at rvc. very interesting. you see my friends who you do not know, nor have ever met, say the exact same thing about them evolving and being sincere and free. i love how you have chosen to love(not give into the rejection, even i felt as i absorbed your sweet story) and how you are korean born, adopted and into health. these are all very special and needful qualities in an individual. (even though the obvious were not choices of course, rather destiny i suppose?) it sounds like a lovely thing is happening in salt lake! i hope you keep us posted or you can email me @ misseschi@yahoo.com and let me know how you are growing there, i believe there are many such communes beginning spontaniously/independently in many places at this time and will continue to do so as our economic, poltical and moral stance as a country/nation continues to weaken. peace and love to you and yours, mrs. chi | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 703 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 144.92.232.102 |
"So, how does Noah fit into Shammah's description of the village." He's the Guru! "You say he doesnt work, does he have an outside source of income such as retirement or disability?" No, but he gets paid for being their Apostle. "Do health reasons or age have anything to do with the central ac?" I doubt it. Everyone has A/C but he has his own unit just for his huge master bedroom. "If so, are all in the same need treated equally?" Everyone cept him... Are you allowed to keep a portion of your incomes for personal things, such as cable expenses and (TV sucks) TV? Yes but no one even watches tv unless there approved dvds. Are expenses for the village shared in equal portions by those with incomes? Everyone pays rent and buys food, clothing etc. Those with SS or pensions pay too. Everyone gets paid and everyone works unless they have a outside source. The single mothers dont have to work unless they want to. Ive given up on living in community. Men always screw it up, so until the true Holy Spirit reveals Himself somewhere, Im doing my own thing and believe our Creator is with me as He always has been. If He wants me to do something specific, then I believe He's powerful enough to let me know just what that is. In the mean time I heed Solomons wise advise... Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd. 12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. 13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. | ||
| mrs_chi Member Username: mrs_chi Post Number: 54 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 12.107.246.12 |
naba, is noah the only one w/a huge master bedroom? i could not always tell who lives where but it did seem some of the homes were over packed. would other people be allowed to have extra if they needed or even just wanted it? don't they ride the horses for enjoyment also? could be his wife is in menopause and needs the extra cool. i know women in tt were given extra consideration during menopause which ment extra ac/window units, not really extra though because usually fans were the annointing, if i remember right ac is not. (so silly!)  | ||
| plow_deep Intermediate Member Username: plow_deep Post Number: 299 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.78.34.226 |
Nabashalam, Thinks for your response. "Ive given up on living in community" Living in a close environment with people has gotta be tough in the long run. The bible warns us about building houses on top of each other. I think living in a dormitory style arrangement for long periods, has to be just as tough. People need personal space for moments of solitude from other folks to maintain a healthy outlook. Thanks for your answers. At least the RVC doesnt take all of the wages produced by its members, such as the TT does. The TT uses poverty and fear against its people and basicly turns them into slaves. Sad. Mrs Chi, You seem to be a pretty level-headed person. I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for sticking a song in my head with your last post. Sometimes we ride on your horses... sometimes, we walk alone... Peace | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 696 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.15 |
Actually mrs chi, I am done commenting on RCV. Im not going to pick them apart anymore.Also as I read your posts I see your apologetic of RCV and anyone can rationalize and justify any type of behavior. Im done with all of it! Actually sick and tired of it. Im getting my own place and am retiring on a Gov. pension! Im done! (Huge breathe of relief!) EVERYONE DO WHAT YOUR HEART TELLS YOU TO DO! | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.208.164 |
--- Im getting my own place and am retiring on a Gov. pension! Im done! --- Yeah, that's the fulfillment of Christ's teaching... Dave, I think it's pretty clear what the motive behind your "seeking community" was really always all about. - John | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 697 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.41 |
OK John, I'll bite... What do you suppose my motive was? And remember, God is the only one who knows my heart... | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 698 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.222.221 |
"I think it's pretty clear what the motive behind your "seeking community" was really always all about." Yeah thats right John, A Place to Belong.... | ||
| kimberlyfredrick New member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.34 |
That was quite harsh John_S. Were you "speaking from your heart?"  Awesome David! Peace to you brother. (I'm in the middle of a move. I did'nt forget about you. Just wanted to email ya something positive = | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.214.203 |
Dave - If getting your own place and retiring on a government pension gives you such a great feeling of accomplishment and relief, how is one supposed to view the motives behind your search for community? Were you really looking for a place to "belong", or just a place to be taken care of? John | ||
| kimberlyfredrick New member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.201 |
john_S, you just can't give it a rest, huh bro...Whay so critical of David? I understood his post to say that he is relieved to just take a break from the frustrations of his life. Posts are not intended for readers to judge motives, only accept what is stated. And if David wished to be "taken care of", a commune would be the LAST place to address this desire. Did you know that most if not all comunes expect over 40 hours a week of hard labour from their fellow citizens? Plus many hours each week for fellowship and Religious obligations. It's not a retirement park! Why don't you show him some Christian love and support? It would be a healthy relationship for both of you. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 699 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.5 |
Wow Kim! Thanks! I couldnt have said it better myself! Yes, a well deserved sabbatical in my eyes is coming for me. Yes Im looking to be taken care of as I care for those who care for me. We all have certain gifts that if we overcome our egos we could be a symphony for the world to listen to. But alas, the human factor usually triumphs over the spirit. Its sad... | ||
| jacob Intermediate Member Username: jacob Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 131.216.49.244 |
From what I am reading, it RCV sounds much like Island Pond in the late 80's until they sent everyone out to start new communities. There was no way you could get to know everyone intimately with 300 hundred people in 10 or 11 households. Getting to know the Yoneq's or other leaders is difficult also because of the sheer volume of requests for their attention; it is still difficult though for those like some of us who may have been emotionally needy and out of balance in our need for attention or intimate friendships.... I can speak from experience, patience in the salvation process in this regard was a hard thing , but now that I am older and look back I realize I did not have the patience that is necessary to develop these friendships, especially when I am only staying in a community for 6 months to 2 years at a time. David, One of the questions I had in your posts: What motivated you to get intoxicated and at the same time intentionally skip a wedding in a spiritual community. You must be aware of how important a wedding is in an intentional community and how flagrantly disrespectful it would come across to become intoxicated in a spiritual community? You must have had a motive? What was it? Their community, their rules. Hope you are enjoying being home, Good luck, I have been to VA centers... hope you are making friends, Jacob | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 701 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 144.92.232.102 |
Jacob, excuse me while I answer a question with a question. What motivated you to ask such a prying, intrusive and personal question, although it is a good one? Was it to conjure up guilt, shame and embarrassment? But being my life is a open book I will try and answer it without offering excuses but the stimuli that drove to seeking release from my mental anguish and the liquid courage needed to speak my heart to the elders without fear of condemnation and reprisal. The several previous weeks I had been in a deep depression (medically expected) after voluntarily de-toxing myself from pain relievers for my chronic, progressive back pain.( I was taking St. Johns Wart to no avail) I had been trying to get an audience with a leader or leaders to address my pain exacerbated by work, nueropathy, foot pain and extreme fatigue brought on by my hep C. Hep c is also accompanied with depression. Proverbs 31:6 Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; 7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more. I was hoping I could get some support in pursuing a Gov. pension to where I could pay rent there and also work on "the land" (their lingo for their property) at my own pace and capability instead of the 60-70 hrs expected of the rest of the men. I was getting no response because everyone is too busy. After having a couple glasses of wine I decided to write a letter to the elders. "En Vino Veritas". I was not being flagrantly disrespectful. I was drinking alone in my room and was not public with it. As far as the wedding, I did not approve of the match and I saw nothing but potential bad fruit in the union and was not going to attend and give them my blessing. I wasnt even missed. It also happened to be the worst day of the year for me. Fathers Day... Another reason for my action was to get the attention of the elders even if it was bad attention. I tried several ways and times to get my voice heard to know avail but a bottle of wine got all 3 of the top dogs knocking on my door at the same time. Im glad I did! Noahs true colors came out. He said he wasnt going to ask me to stay or for that matter, to leave. I said that I was torn on staying or leaving and he said" Well let me help you make a decision. If you intend to stay here you can not use the internet. Period! No emails no fact net, nothing. Also you must go to an inpatient rehab." One night of drinking and he thinks he knows what I need. Ive probably drank 4 or 5 times in the past 10 years. Ive been in so many re-habs I could get a Phd! Then he tries the fear trip of being in a severe accident or getting a deadly disease for turning my back on God! TT relived! Jacob, I hoped this quenched your "curiosity"? On a lighter note... Im currently researching for apts in Madison. I should be back there in a few months and plan on living right downtown next to the UW campus. Its a beautiful clean city, low crime rate and is always in the top 5 cities to live in in the United States. http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=best+cities+in+the+US+to+live+madison+wi&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=ush1-mail&x=wrt | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1093 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.255.82.158 |
John S Are you assuming that people need to find or seek the community to rest or be at peace with God, that if people rest without that they were never sincere, that if David is done and glad he has a government pension he is done because he found fulfillment in the government pension??? | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.208.15 |
--- that if David is done and glad he has a government pension he is done because he found fulfillment in the government pension??? --- Ask David. He's the one who wrote the words. Based on my understanding of language and concepts, I think what he said/meant was clear. But I'm not bipolar. He may have meant something else and you may have a better handle on the interpretation. - John | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1103 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.255.93.154 |
John I can clearly see you are calling David bipolar, but if he is I don't see why you would want to aggravate him with your name calling and projections on a sense of relief being the same as a sense of accomplishment. You confirm your questions to David are a way of being subtile with accusations but now with the "flaming" it confirms my suspicion of the motive behind your questions. | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.211.194 |
There is no secret "motive" behind my statement or my question. I have moved amongst, and researched, Christian communal groups for what has now become the majority of my life. The fact is, there are always a fairly high percentage of people drawn to such groups for primarily physical reasons; their spiritual convictions playing a much more minor role. People in this category are drawn to community living, not to the gospel of Christ. But they will accept the spiritual aspect of a Christian commune as part of the bargain, much like agnostic homeless folks will sit through sermons at the shelter so they can get their 3 hots and a cot. As you may recall, prior to going to RCV David was a gung-ho member of Ganas in NY, and Ganas is a completely secular, egalitarian community. I'm not trying to hurt David with my statements. He has chosen to be nakedly open with his life story here and I am just providing the kind of third-party feedback he has shown himself willing and able to accept in the past. BTW Doug, if I may ask, where you been, man? You've been in absentia on this board for a loooooong time. - John | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 703 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.45 |
"As you may recall, prior to going to RCV David was a gung-ho member of Ganas in NY, and Ganas is a completely secular, egalitarian community." So John, why do you suppose I left Ganas? I had it made there! I had a great job, boss, room and soon was to become a "core member" and be set with my "3 hots and a cot" for life! Ya spose it was the Gospel? Duh...( by the way John, where did you pick up that penitentiary vocabulary?) It kinda exposes your subtle accusations and passive aggressive behavior! Naner naner naner! You need to set a trap and catch that leprechaun that pis-es in your corn flakes every morning so you wont have such a bitter disposition throughout the day! ROTFLMAO!!!! | ||
| kimberlyfredrick Junior Member Username: kimberlyfredrick Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.69.139.13 |
LOL...I just love your wit David. That pesky Leprechaun has been after me for weeks. And all this time it was my cornflakes he was after. LOL | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1130 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.255.82.66 |
John, One of the most Stressful times in my life started last year around this time and I had to deal with many issues and stresses and had no time for much else but some of these things have passed. John, when you said If getting your own place and retiring on a government pension gives you such a great feeling of accomplishment and relief, how is one supposed to view the motives behind your search for community? At that point you left out the rest of the equation which I am still not so sure about (haven't contemplated about it) I recently read some stuff on the end of the church age and it made quite a good, not only biblical point about there being a time when God would no longer work through the ceremonial church structure. Perhaps there will be fellowships where the holy spirit works but their will not be any pastors or leaders or elders. A long time ago I wondered why no one could try to obey God in starting a church without satan winning out in their midst and utterly deluding them and now I believe it is because God has stopped working through the church in much the same way that he stopped working in Israel through the temple and Jerusalem because of their worshiping of false gods in their high places (false gospels or false understandings of the true gospel). He told Israel to go captive to Babylon and all who remained in Jerusalem (the outward churches) were destroyed. Did you ever contemplate that? Perhaps God is doing something totally different than most of us imagine or are looking for. | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 94 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.211.111 |
David - I don't know about the "gospel" leading you out of Ganas... You were on a big Neale Walsch trip at that time... Didn't it have something to do with you relapsing? And no, I've never done time. I think anyone who's ever watched some TV knows the expression "three hots and a cot". Doug - Thanks for sharing... Personally, I don't think God _ever_ worked through the "ceremonial" church. I also do not believe there is an "end" to the church age. Unless by "end" one means a falling away or apostasy. Nor would I say that followers of Jesus living together and sharing their lives and possessions constitutes the church (necessarily). I've come to believe that people can love, worship and seek to obey God, through Christ, outside of the church. Yet apart from the (true) church, the fullness of God's blessings to man will never be realized. Personally, I am seriously considering a return (with my family) to the community I joined at 21, and have been away from for 15 years - the Bruderhof. In two weeks my wife and son and I will be traveling to Pennsylvania to spend some time there and see where God might lead things. Though I have been an outspoken public critic of the Bruderhof since being sent away from it, I can still say that the most humble, loving and selfless people I have ever met live there. I can also say that the greatest fulfillment (spiritually speaking) I have ever experienced came while I was a member there. Yet their way is far from perfect. And living in that type of community asks a great deal of the individual. But we will see what is given. I am hopeful, but not unrealistically idealistic (like I was at 21). - John | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
john_s, You write: "Yet apart from the (true) church, the fullness of God's blessings to man will never be realized." My question is: what is the 'true' church? Is it the church without sin? Or is it the church with only certain sins and and not others? Or the church with only those other sins? I ask these questions, because this line of thinking (ie the 'true church') is what has led the TT to think that they are the only ones... Their argument goes: 1. Jesus tells us to obey his commandments. 2. Christians are not obeying his commandments. 3. Because they have disobeyed, they have lost their covenant as the true church. Ergo: We are the true church. QED The missing proposition is: We are obedient and they are not. (by which they mean: we give up everything and live in community). When pressed about their short comings, however, they will say that they are not perfect and have made mistakes. So which is it: Are they obedient or not? Or are they saying that their sins are less grievious than the Christians' sins? One needs to think carefully of what the true church is. yochanan | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 704 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 144.92.232.103 |
Whoa!!! The Bruderhof are the Hutterites' version of the TT!!! Talk about a exclusive destructive high control group! http://www.factnet.org/cults/Bruderhof/Recommended_Books_on_Bruderhof.htm http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b16.html http://www.perefound.org/home2.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruderhof_Communities | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1137 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.68.0.229 |
John Let me know how God guides you. Ceremonial meaning obeying the rules that the early churches followed like baptism and elderships etc., things that can't save you but helped spread the gospel. God definitely spread the gospel that way for a time even though the majority of people in them were not saved. But, yes, by end I mean a falling away, apostasy of the church but not of all believers for an uncountable multitude is saved towards the end apart from the completion of those saved through a church structure symbolized by 144,000. A falling away in that a subtile false gospel that relies on man's efforts takes over. They all think they are at peace with God whether it is a community thinking they are obeying God or people thinking their faith saves them because they believe in their mind in some kind of Jesus | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 95 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.209.217 |
--- My question is: what is the 'true' church? --- It is the church described in Acts and the epistles. It can be nothing less. Every element of the Body's "biography" must be in place, or it is NOT the church. Unless of course you believe in a non-biblical church. And once you open that door, obviously, anything goes. The "church" becomes whatever you want it to be. You might as well be a Unitarian and just make it all up as you go along. What applies to Jesus the man must also apply to his Body. What is the "biography" of Jesus? Can a Jesus not born of a virgin or not capable of performing the signs attributed to him be a real Savior? How about a Jesus who does not sit at the right hand of the Father, ready to judge living and dead? Virtually no Christian I have ever met would accept belief in anything less than the full, biblical Jesus Christ. Yet EVERYone I have ever met accepts their "membership" in something that is far, far less than the biblical church. John | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
John, That church described in Acts was certainly filled w/ sinners. There is a catalogue of sinners and sins in Paul's letters. Paul himself gets into a public fight w/ a fellow apostle at Antioch. Peter, the first bishop and head of the church, denied Jesus three times.... So the first church really isn't too different 'sin-wise' from the church today.... And those who say they are without sin--- well, as John says-- they aren't telling the truth... And explain what you mean by 'biography'... yochanan | ||
| rainy_day_woman Intermediate Member Username: rainy_day_woman Post Number: 214 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.131.36.14 |
John_s, I actually kind of favor your posts because you offer a voice of reason even as cynical as you may be at times. I remember in particular an analogy you made about a chair factory and the gospel concerning the church. You ended up concluding that you wouldn't be buying anyone's bag of saw dust again... So, why the change of heart? And, what about signs and wonders? | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 705 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.222.221 |
Its amazing all the facts are just thrown out the door when it comes to blind faith... http://www.entheology.org/POCM/getting_started_pocm.html "History is a set of lies agreed upon" -Napoleon Bonaparte | ||
| aloysius_horn New member Username: aloysius_horn Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 192.204.19.245 |
Nabashalam & others: have a look at this and see what you think. An atheist whois a spiritualist. http://www.salon.com/books/int/2006/07/07/harris/index.html Aloysius | ||
| shammah Member Username: shammah Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.173.40.140 |
>>Nor would I say that followers of Jesus living together and sharing their lives and possessions constitutes the church (necessarily).<< I would. I don't know what requirement needs to be added to this, assuming that you're meaning real followers who deny themselves, take up their cross daily, and follow him. Jesus wrote letters to seven churches in Asia, including a lukewarm one that was wretched, blind, miserable, and naked, but he called them all churches and said he was walking among them, though he was threatening a couple of them with losing their lampstands. The work ekklesia was used in the first century of the town meeting of Greek towns. Origen, a Greek speaker and noted scholar, spoke of comparing the ekklesia of God in Caesarea to the ekklesia of Caesarea. It is simply the gathering of God's people. | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 96 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.209.72 |
--- That church described in Acts was certainly filled w/ sinners. There is a catalogue of sinners and sins in Paul's letters. --- There certainly were sinners in the 1st century church. But what was the church's response to such, according to the apostle Paul? They were to be cast out of the assembly, so that the whole lump would not be leavened. In what "church" today do you see Paul's instructions actually carried out? If his instructions were followed, all these "churches" would immediately be emptied, not a soul left. It wouldn't make for much dough when it came time to pass the plate. --- And explain what you mean by 'biography' --- I mean the characteristics of the Body of Christ. All of them. All are as essential to salvation as are the characteristics of Jesus the man. Was Jesus a compassionate man? Yes. Was he a teacher of spiritual truths? Yes. But was that all he was? Do you think belief in Jesus as a kind and wise sage can save a person? Or would one have to accept the fullness of his "biography" in order to reach a saving faith? Was the church a gathered collection of people who professed Jesus as Lord? Yes. Was that the whole of what defined it? Not by a long shot. The church of the NT is described as possessing God given gifts and offices, and of manifesting the power of the Holy Spirit in various ways. Through said offices it also had human authority, and this authority brought with it teachings and commandments that led to a tangible and visible Way of Life amongst the disciples. If the local congregation you call a "church" lacks any of these components (unless it truly had them at one time and is in a state of decay) it is not a biblical church. It is not the Body of Christ. At least not according to my Bible. John | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 97 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.209.72 |
--- Jesus wrote letters to seven churches in Asia, including a lukewarm one that was wretched, blind, miserable, and naked, but he called them all churches and said he was walking among them, though he was threatening a couple of them with losing their lampstands. --- How to respond to this oft used defense of an impotent and unholy Christianity? If I had a registered purebred that was run over by a car, survived, but lost both its back legs, broke its spine and suffered head trauma that caused complete deafness, would that dog still be a purebred? If you owned a mixed breed that had all its legs, faculties and senses, would that somehow make your mutt a registered purebred? Or, if one is crowned a king in majesty and splendor, but falls into corruption, is he not still called a king until the day he is deposed and cast into exile? And how can you compare his life to the life of another man who was never crowned king to begin with? John | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 707 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.31 |
So Shammah, you must consider the TT, the Bruderhof, Shepardsfield and all the other egalitarian Christian groups "The Church. Right? Does this disqualify all the other churches and Christians who dont live in community? Is community a part of the cross of the "saved"? | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 708 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.31 |
So Shammah, you must consider the TT, the Bruderhof, Shepardsfield and all the other egalitarian Christian groups "The Church". Right? Does this disqualify all the other churches and Christians who dont live in community? Is community a part of the cross of the "saved"? | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1143 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.255.90.166 |
John --- My question is: what is the 'true' church? --- It is the church described in Acts and the epistles. It can be nothing less. Every element of the Body's "biography" must be in place, or it is NOT the church. Unless of course you believe in a non-biblical church. And once you open that door, obviously, anything goes. The "church" becomes whatever you want it to be. The church described in Acts and the Epistles and the book of Revelation was members comprised a few true believers and many people who were not saved. There is circumcision, a token of the covenant and circumcision of the heart, the covenant. Not all Israel is Israel and during tribulations Israel was told by (was it Jeremiah?) to go as captive and leave Jerusalem and the temple which is a likeness of the church. I don't believe all the outward biography must be in place to be saved. I don't believe in a non biblical church but I understand parts of the bible clearly and differently than many others. Some things I suspect in what I believe but others I know I know I know. | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
John, "There certainly were sinners in the 1st century church. But what was the church's response to such, according to the apostle Paul? They were to be cast out of the assembly..." I think if you judge the 'true church' by whether it is (or was) 'sin-free', then everyone would be cast out. Even Paul would be thrown out. Paul says of himself, 'I do the things, I would not do; and I don't do the things, I would... What a wretched man am I!'(Romans 7) There is no grace in this theology. The 'true church' is not distinquished by being sin free, but by its covenant faithfulness. Paul continues to say, his hope is in Jesus Christ --in the healing power of the cross and the faithfulness of God. Each person of the true church is aware (and becomes even more deeply aware as he (or she) comes closer to God) of the extent of their sin. It is sin which prevents one from being with God. But by reaching out to God, God, in turn, responds and heals by His grace. And as each sin is healed, that person can live deeper in love with God. Paul calls that being 'in Christ'--- allowing God to transform us. The Orthodox Church calls it 'theosis'. It is the response to Jesus' call: 'Change your life, for the kingdom of God is at hand.' Our job is to be faithful to the cross and allow the Spirit to heal us. When that happens, the Spirit is close and the church looks like very much like the church in Acts. And there are examples today. yochanan | ||
| shammah Intermediate Member Username: shammah Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.173.40.140 |
Doug wrote:>>The church described in Acts and the Epistles and the book of Revelation was members comprised a few true believers and many people who were not saved.<< While I don't agree with John that a church must be more than the local believers together, I don't agree with this, either. The churches of today are comprised of a few true believers and many people who are not saved, but I do not believe that was true in the early days of the church. Sure, Sardis had bad problems so that Christ would say that there were "a few" who would walk with him in white, I don't believe that this was normal. Even to the Corinthians, Paul said that they were "in everything enriched by him, in all utterance and knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you." A review of the writings of the church after the Book of the Revelation was written reveals that the churches of that day took the warnings of Revelation and the Corinthian letters seriously. They repented. Irenaeus (c. AD 185) could boast that you could travel across all of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East and find all the churches, even of the Barbarians, speaking the same things as though they had one mouth and living in the same holiness. Origen (c. AD 225) boasted that he would be willing to compare the ten worst men in the ekklesia of God with the ten best men of the city they were in. The Church of Rome(c. AD 95) wrote to the Corinthians describing the wonderful repentance and unity that Paul's letter to them had produced. John S. wrote: >>How to respond to this oft used defense of an impotent and unholy Christianity?<< However, I'm not defending an impotent and unholy Christianity. I'm just disagreeing with your definition of a church, and the Scriptures I quoted are valid for that purpose. Impotent and unholy Christianity should be repented of and rejected. The lukewarm church of Laodicea was going to cease to be a church if they didn't repent (don't know if they did), and Jesus demanded repentance of the Ephesian church, too (which they did), or else their lampstand would be removed. | ||
| shammah Intermediate Member Username: shammah Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.173.40.140 |
Yochanon wrote: >>Paul says of himself, 'I do the things, I would not do; and I don't do the things, I would... What a wretched man am I!'(Romans 7)<< I don't think it's fair to say that this was Paul's way of living. There are numerous other verses where he says things like "I know nothing against myself" and that he's lived with a good conscience before God and men. Romans 7 is a description of a problem that men in general face, and that perhaps Paul lived with before he knew Christ. However, to suggest that he lived like that after Christ makes the end of the chapter to be nonsense, because he said that there was a solution to the problem. "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Christ our Lord!" If Christ the Lord hadn't delivered him from what he described in Romans 7, then what's the point of his giving thanks? He said a few verses later, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets us free from the law of sin and death," and "What the law could not do, because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of our sinful flesh." >>There is no grace in this theology.<< People are very confused about what grace is. Grace is not a license to sin, nor an excuse for sin. Grace is the power of God that delivers us from sin. It "teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly" (Tit 2:11,12) and it causes sin not to have power over us (Rom 6:14). Grace is that wonderful power that delivers us from sin and equips us to do God's work. Demanding holiness does not deny grace, it is the only true belief in grace. >>And there are examples today.<< Can you name some of those examples? I went to India last year, and we were able to find examples. In the US, we have only been able to find individuals, not churches, and we would be thrilled to find examples of people who really live like the book of Acts. I'm sure we would not be the only ones who would like to hear of those examples. I've met people from all over the United States who can't find any church to be a part of, so you'd be providing examples to far more than just us and doing those lonely disciples a favor. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 709 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.222.221 |
Shammah, Am I being ignored or shunned or both? Shammah, do you remember the conversation we had, or was it an email, about my trying to get a pension so I wouldnt have to work and then pay to stay there due to my deteriorating health? Have I burned my bridge back there? Is there still forgiveness available there if theres genuine repentance on my side? You can email me privately if you wish... In fact, Id prefer it... nabashalam@yahoo.com | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 81 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
Shammah, "I don't think it's fair to say that this was Paul's way of living." Do you think that Paul didn't have to deal with his sins after his conversion? In Romans, Paul sets the forth the condition of humankind in general, in the first chapters, leading up to the Scripture in the 3rd: "There is no one righteous no not one." So that would include Paul--- In the 7th chapter, he moves from macrocosm to the microcosm-- his personal life. What is true in the kosmos is true in the inner life... and there also only the cross can save... "If Christ the Lord hadn't delivered him from what he described in Romans 7, then what's the point of his giving thanks?" I think here the question is about time. Christ has delivered him through his sacrifice which makes Paul able to be intimate with God. (Otherwise, the Wrath would be too much.) But at the same time, he is being delivered in that God is transforming him (healing his sins) so that the intimacy might be full. Both are reasons for thanks... "People are very confused about what grace is. Grace is not a license to sin, nor an excuse for sin. Grace is the power of God that delivers us from sin." Exactly. "Can you name some of those examples?" Outside the US, the story of the Chinese church is amazing. I recommend reading, "The Heavenly Man" , which is the biography of Brother Yun, Liu Zhenying. And Mother Theresa's community-- did you visit it when you where there? In the US, there are communities, monasteries and churches: Reba Place Fellowship, Little Portions Monastery and you can come and visit our church. And I'd include RCV, based on the stuff you've been writing here... yochanan | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.214.159 |
--- I think if you judge the 'true church' by whether it is (or was) 'sin-free', then everyone would be cast out. Even Paul would be thrown out. Paul says of himself, 'I do the things, I would not do; and I don't do the things, I would... What a wretched man am I!'(Romans 7) --- It is a stunning irony, an unknowing, self-condemnation, when evangelical Christians find their most personal spiritual experience and resonance in these words of Paul... Words that described Paul's condition APART FROM CHRIST. And nothing you have written changes the clear instructions of Paul in scripture... Those guilty of sin are to be put out of the assembly, since a little leaven leavens the whole lump. But if the whole lump is leavened already to begin with, as you would have it, what's the point of worrying about more leaven anyway, right? Paul obviously could not have meant what he said. If the scripture contradicts your personal experience, just manipulate and deemphasize the scriptures until they fall into line with the experience. But the holiness/sin question aside... There are other essential components seen within the biblical church as well. Begin at birth. The biblical church is built upon the foundation of apostles and propets. What is the name of the living, breathing, apostle, the skilled master builder, who laid the foundation of your local congregation? For without an apostle, your assembly could not have been betrothed to Christ. Thus it cannot be his Bride. And by apostle, I mean the man that you turn to when necessary to answer all questions of doctrine and practice, and to resolve specific matters regarding the actual people and circumstances within your church? And of course, if this man is truly an apostle, and you are faithful to God, you receive his teaching and discernment as inspired, direct from the mouth of the Father, and apply it without question or debate. John | ||
| shammah Intermediate Member Username: shammah Post Number: 103 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.173.40.140 |
Yochanon, >>Do you think that Paul didn't have to deal with his sins after his conversion?<< I didn't say that. As to the rest of Romans 7, I'll let what I said and what you said stand rather than continue with a back and forth argument. >>Reba Place Fellowship, Little Portions Monastery and you can come and visit our church.<< My question was only about US churches, so forgive me for not responding concerning China. I've looked at Reba's web site and they are on my list of places I'd like to visit. I can't go visit your church, however, because you haven't told me what it is. Does everyone here just know that already? | ||
| john_s Member Username: john_s Post Number: 99 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.214.159 |
Hi Rainy Day Woman... I started a new thread to answer your personal questions to me: "A Continuation". John S. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 710 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.10 |
Thanks for your non-response Shammah! It reveals all I need to know! Reminds me of when I was there! What could I have been thinking? By the way you guys, have you forgotten what this thread is? | ||
| shammah Intermediate Member Username: shammah Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.176.112.253 |
Actually, David, I was passing on the one question you asked. There was really only one response. Your question was: >>Is there still forgiveness available there if theres genuine repentance on my side?<< Yes, but since there's no repentance, genuine or not, on your side, the question's moot. | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1152 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.125.87.247 |
Shammah, Thank you for bringing to my attention my overstatement about the early church though there was a few rebukes in the epistles and in revelation and acts but as far as todays churches go I'd be surprised if there were any real believers in most of them and possibly a few (who should get out) in some of them. | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 102 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.212.48 |
Shammah – Your definition of grace is spot on. Clearly, you maintain an accurate theology in the matter as opposed to the error of Yochanan. But theology aside, is there really any definitive difference between the outworking of your theology in the personal lives of your congregation, and the outworking of Yochanan’s in the lives of his? This is the question I wish you could honestly face and answer. Sectarian, community-oriented groups like yours usually approach a member’s sinfulness differently than the Christian mainstream in only two respects: A. Sins must often be confessed and addressed publicly – to/by the whole congregation, or designated leaders of the congregation. B. Certain acts of repentance and or penance are prescribed for the sinner (a shunning period, a public beseeching for forgiveness, a “time away” from the group) and must be carried out if the sinner is to be reconciled to God and the congregation. But neither of these actions have anything to do with the basis of the fundamental theological distinction: Do those under grace still commit sin, or do they not? And if both those who walk in Christ’s grace, and those who don’t, still commit the same sins, how can you define grace as the power to obey his commandments? I don’t want to sell RCV short, but it would seem to me that this is the actual, operational definition of “grace” amongst y’all: Those under grace feel greater disappointment and pain when they sin, and they have to jump through more hoops to “get right” with God again. But if I am missing something, I want you to share it here. Thanks. - John | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 82 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
John and Shammah, “Do those under grace still commit sin, or do they not?” --John S. Yes. This the crux of it. Are you saying that they don’t?. My position is that they do, both from experience and scripture. “It is a stunning irony, an unknowing, self-condemnation, when evangelical Christians find their most personal spiritual experience and resonance in these words of Paul... Words that described Paul's condition APART FROM CHRIST.” --John S. Above said in reference to Romans 7: Shammah & John, note the change in Paul’s writing from the past tense to the present tense, when he says, ‘I do the things I would not do.” Not ‘I did the things I would not do.” He also says in Romans 8, “but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.” But if you don’t like my exegesis of Romans, the apostle John says: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:8-10 “And nothing you have written changes the clear instructions of Paul in scripture... Those guilty of sin are to be put out of the assembly, since a little leaven leavens the whole lump.”---- John S. Yes, I also believe in excommunication for an unrepentant sinner. But there are many steps before that. I am not arguing against church discipline. What I’m saying is that we must be aware of our own sins, before judging others. For the appreciation of God’s grace to us allows us be graceful to others--- and keeps us from ending up like Yoneq, thinking that only we are the true church. Yoneq is the extreme--- we all have a little of that in ourselves. Shammah, If you come to the Massachusetts north shore, you are more than welcome to come to my church and stay in modest abode. I want to maintain a certain anonymity so I won’t say more here but we can arrange to speak off line. yochanan | ||
| shammah Intermediate Member Username: shammah Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.173.40.140 |
John S. wrote: >>if both those who walk in Christ’s grace, and those who don’t, still commit the same sins<< and >>Do those under grace still commit sin<< These are not the same question. Do those under grace still commit sin? Yes, we believe that. Do those under grace commit the same sins as those not under grace? No. According to John, the difference between those under grace and those not under grace is great enough to be "obvious" (1 Jn 3:10). I think the command of Scripture is to stop sinning (1 Cor 15:34) and to be perfect (Matt 5:48). I think that's the normal way that those under grace are supposed to live. They have been taught to live soberly, righteously, and godly (Tit 2:11,12), and sin does not have dominion over them (Rom 6:14). However, I don't see any indication from Scripture or church history that a life completely devoid of all sin was normal to any church anywhere. >>This is the question I wish you could honestly face and answer.<< I think I have faced this. My foray into the writings of the early church which I read daily and extensively for about five years led me to believe that whether I thought I was saved at any time in the past, it was clear from Scripture, the teachings of the early church, and my own powerlessness over sin that I was certainly hellbound at that time. I no longer think that's so clear, but even if I still believed that, becoming part of the church produced dramatic changes in my life and personality and continues to do so. I believe the difference between those under grace and those not under grace remains "obvious," as John so aptly puts it, and that the grace that transforms people, transforms their behavior, and gives them power to obey God is indeed obvious in its working and results in the large majority of those who live in Rose Creek Village. This is true not because it's RCV or because we have any special rules or practices, but because it's God promise to the church, which is the gathered family of Christ's disciples. "Flee also youthful lusts, but follow righteousness, faith, love, and peace along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart." | ||
| shammah Intermediate Member Username: shammah Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.173.40.140 |
John S. wrote:>>and the outworking of Yochanan’s in the lives of his<< I don't know Yochanan, and I'm not prepared to put too much stock in theology--good or bad-- though I do try to correct the false use of the word grace that is so common. It's entirely possible that the outworking of grace in Yochanon's church is quite the same as ours; I have no way of knowing. I did think that he was perfectly willing to acknowledge what effect grace is supposed to have, so I'm assuming the theological clash we had was mostly semantics, though that particular semantic is of some importance to me. Yochanan wrote:>>If you come to the Massachusetts north shore, you are more than welcome to come to my church and stay in modest abode.<< I will make a mental note of that. Would you mind going to www.rosecreekvillage.com/email and sending a note with your email address. I don't want either of us to have to post an email address on here that spambots will just pick up and add to a mailing list. It's my wife who checks those emails from the web site. Just tell her I asked. I'll send you a note. Is it all right if I ask some questions about your church by email? | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 83 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
John, For the record, I am in agreement with Shammah on his definition of grace, as I wrote before: <<"People are very confused about what grace is. Grace is not a license to sin, nor an excuse for sin. Grace is the power of God that delivers us from sin." Exactly. >> yochanan | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 103 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.212.155 |
Shammah - Thanks for attempting to answer my questions. But I'm still not clear on the specifics of what sins constitute "under grace" unholiness and what sins constitute "outside grace" unholiness. (According to the apostle Paul, the sins that disqualify members of the church from inheriting the Kingdom of God run the gamut... from murder to drunkenness, and many things in between. There is nowhere in scripture where sins are cataloged and ranked by "degree", in the way they are, for example, within Roman Catholicism.) So what sins have ceased to exist in RCV when compared to, say, the Methodist church down the road here? Also, are there any sins at all, no matter how "gracelessly" committed or how "obviously" heathen in nature, that would result in total, eternal banishment from RCV? Even if the sinner in question was genuinely repentant? John | ||
| shammah Intermediate Member Username: shammah Post Number: 107 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.173.40.140 |
Sorry, John. I don't know how to be any more clear than what I said above. I can tell you that I can't see how a question about sins graceless committed or sins that are obviously heathen in nature has anything to do with what I said. Maybe this will help, from you parentheses, according to the apostle Paul in Gal 5, it is not the type of sin that disqualifies a person from the kingdom of God--for surely he meant to include all works of the flesh--but it is the practice of sin that disqualifies them. Personally, I think he addresses that pretty clearly in the next chapter. "God is not mocked. He who sows to the flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. He who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap everlasting life." Paul tells those Galatians, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." If walking by the Spirit was automatic to those who have the Spirit, why issue such a command? If it's not automatic, but one sin disqualifies a person, then again, why issue the command? If they had disobeyed that command even once, then they were disqualified, so why waste their time continuing to try? Paul says, "If you live after the flesh, you will die." He does not say, "If you slip into the flesh once, or, in fact, if you even sin once, then you will die." It is a risk that those under grace may live after the flesh or continually sow to the flesh, so they are warned that those who do so cannot enter God's kingdom. They will die. Experience--not just ours, but those of Scripture and history--says that even those under grace slip here and there and do things like refuse to eat with Gentiles when they know better. The nature of God has not changed at all. His mercies are new every morning. The covenant with man has changed, however, and to those who are given much, much is required. Those new men are known by their love for one another, and they are "obvious" enough for the world to know that they are Christ's disciples, and that it is his power, sent from God, that has transformed them. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 711 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.16 |
"Ignoring someone is the highest form of hate." Go ahead and rationalize your actions Shammah. Your response is moot! You responded when I finally got rude. Its the same way at RCV where I couldnt get any attention till I misbehaved! Also, why dont you 3 take your intellectual scriptural wranglings elsewhere! Dont you know God hates that garbage? Youve got time to banter with someone on the web while you neglect those right outside your door. It took me some time for me to see through both your false humility but you and Noah are proud arrogant pricks and always will be. Im the same way but I admit it, Im a sinner, and I pray for forgiveness... | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 104 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.209.243 |
Hey, Shammah and Yochanan, I'm starting a new thread in order to continue our discussion. I don't think it's fair to keep infringing on Dave's Me-time. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 713 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.31 |
Thats right John and I know you need your fix too! So enough is enough! This site is called fact net for a reason! "FACTNet’s name is an acronym that means Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network. We are composed of a global network of former cult members and professionals who assist victims of cults, mind control,psychological coercion and fundamentalism." A place of information and healing. This particular board your on is for members, ex-members and those interested in the Twelve Tribes group. Get it? Start a RCV board or a scriptures debate and personal interpretations board! It was one mans personal interpretations that are claimed to be "heavenly divined" that got us ex-members caught up in a destructive fundamentalist high control group to begin with!!! So take that crap somewhere else! Now I admit if I had first met RCV aka Tsion Hadashah, I most likely would still be there today. The control there is much more hidden but is still as insidious as the TTs. Being that I could see the control more readily in the Tribes, I developed a "nose" for it and RCV still emanates that odor even though it is heavily perfumed by Saurons, the Lord of Mordor, and Sarumans trickery! LOL! Better yet, Noahs not Sauron, he's more like Gollum! He was a hobbit like creature until he tasted the power of the Ring but Shammah is definitely Saruman, the dark wizard of scriptures. (I thought yall touted theres no condemnation in Messiah! There was when I was there! Hog Wash! or better yet, White Wash!) | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 714 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.204.31 |
One last note on RCV. Im really trying hard to burn this bridge too. It keeps me from repeating my mistakes! I know your big public relations/recruitment/3 ring circus is this weekend. I hope it rains cats and frogs! LOL! Funny thing is, I know several single mothers(widows and orphans) who have been trying to visit or move there but get no responses from you or you claim there is "no room in the Inn"! I suppose you all are looking for laborers? No that cant be true either! You dont have work for them! So your full up, got your cozy standard of living and are closing your borders to immigrants. God forbid you might have to sell your horses or close your recording studio or cancel the next trip to India in order to buy another single mothers trailer... A little advise to RCV and the TT..."Return to your first love!". | ||
| jacob Intermediate Member Username: jacob Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 131.216.48.254 |
Hi David, Read your reply. No deep motive here on my part, actually I was just taking it all at face value. My conscience tells me that drinking at all while in a spiritual community is disrespecting the spirit/purpose of the community, especially on their property. As for the rest of it that you describe, it just seems to me like the need for 'negative attention' and as we all know here on the forum... I would be the pot calling the kettle black with the way I have gone off at times; We all have our begit. I can tell you, as I am sure you know: It doesn't work. Just alienates everyone and they are just as glad to tell you not to let the door hit you in the ••• on the way out. If you are like me, it makes me feel worse inside, even though I told them what I thought of them; And I know I do not make friends this way. The only fruit seems to be Self-Gratification. Maybe the answer is simpler: We have our 'conditions' and conforming with the restrictions/priorities/relationships of some spiritual communities just does not work for us. It is their community and they were friends long before you or me showed up. Wish you the best in Madison. Have heard great things about it!! Suspect I may experience it myself sometime. As someone on the forum blessed me one time, I hope the best for you that you will find your 'community' sometime in the future. Shalom, Jacob | ||
| jacob Intermediate Member Username: jacob Post Number: 408 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 131.216.48.254 |
Been reading gospels and the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers, at someone's suggestion from the forum. Seems like the church changed direction from the simple gospel and the politics of the church (community) developed very quickly. Some rich stuff in what I am reading outside of the scriptures, i.e. Shepherd of Hermas. And there seems to be a direct lineage or series of events in how the church developed. It would seem they got off the simple foundation of Messiah's sacrifice, love your God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself [which fulfills the Law and the commandments Jesus explained] very quickly. It all became very political. I see the same in the Community. They started out as a group of friends whom loved their Master and loved each other.... it morphed into something else quickly as it seems every Christian movement has (instituionalization I suspect in order to pass on their beliefs/principles to following generations). I look at the discussions on the forum and it seems awfully complicated.... complicated. Would any of us in the forum have a stone to throw if we obeyed the simple gospel. I am still a sinner doesn't seem to justify the banter. David, I write this to myself as well as you and everyone who is reading this: If you believe it (the gospel) just do it and God will judge the rest. Just think, if each of us here loved one another and was welcome in each others home unconditionally.... it would spread like wildfire. Do any of us have any more time to throw stones at these groups anymore. Open up your door and help someone if they cannot make it in the Tribes or RCV...let them know someone and God does still love them. And let the Tribes and RCV people do the best they can and love each other. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 715 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.21 |
Jacob, Im done with it all! Community, religion especially the Bible. I have nothing for a book that has done far more evil than it has ever done good... "A evil man can do good but it takes religion for a good man to do evil." | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 718 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.15 |
From a friend... "If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous. Be happy anyway! You see in the final analysis, its between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway!!!" | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1174 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.127.222.71 |
Hi Jacob! It would seem they got off the simple foundation of Messiah's sacrifice, love your God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself [which fulfills the Law and the commandments Jesus explained] very quickly. It all became very political. What happens is that the holy spirit can work through brethren but not the church structure so Satan nips it in the bud by getting the brethren to "see who they are" and become a church. The only people/ministries I believe the holy spirit is working through are those who refuse to become a church, refuse to have a place where members can join and elders can lead and teach. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1202 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.206 |
naba has inspired me to give up on the christian religion. i have decided to become a frisbeetarianist. the core beliefs are as follows. Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. - George Carlin | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1177 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.127.199.63 |
But are you following George Carlin's view of it or did your father above the roof show it to you? | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 723 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 152.132.8.198 |
I now classify myself as a "Iconoclastic Spiritual Anarchist". | ||
| jacob Intermediate Member Username: jacob Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 131.216.48.254 |
Hey David, Was thinking about you this week and wondered if this has dawned upon you: In the TT we were always told that the TT was the realization of the prophecy, "...birds of many different feathers will flock together..." Reality is: Birds of a feather do flock together. People of the same practice congregate. It is not a strange thing that people are shunned or do not fit into another's community. | ||
| jacob Intermediate Member Username: jacob Post Number: 413 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 131.216.48.254 |
David, Read your posts. Seems like you are going through the cycle many of us have encountered. My tendancy is to agree with you about the effects of the Bible.... in Revelations, John talks about a little book that tasted like honey but made his stomach bitter. I have been an Iconclastic Spriritual Anarchist... in the strictest definition and I do not find happiness or contentment there. But it is on the road to find out.... Where your heart lies and what you really believe. | ||
| jacob Intermediate Member Username: jacob Post Number: 414 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 131.216.48.254 |
Doug, I have tended to agree with what you... Am even speaking every day with an India(n) gentleman on this very subject. What I cannot seem to get around is that the fruit of a holy spirit is community where spiritual giftings work together. Some sort of authority then develops. In this case, this Indian man sees that all we are required to do by the doctrine of Christ is go make disciples: condemning the organized church of Chrstianity, teaching scriptures, and baptizing. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 724 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 209.103.218.141 |
"...birds of many different feathers will flock together..." So it is needless to say that neither groups are the "Tree of Ezekiel"! Thanks for your compassion and understanding Jacob. Its actually hard to find that amongst hardline fundamentalists. They are "stuck on stupid!". | ||
| plow_deep Intermediate Member Username: plow_deep Post Number: 355 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.78.44.164 |
Oh thats just great! Y'all just had to go and stick a silly Phish song in my head didnt you? Thats what I get for stopping in this thread...sigh. (just kidding) Doug, "What happens is that the holy spirit can work through brethren but not the church structure so Satan nips it in the bud by getting the brethren to "see who they are" and become a church. The only people/ministries I believe the holy spirit is working through are those who refuse to become a church, refuse to have a place where members can join and elders can lead and teach." I tend to believe that God takes care of his own wherever they are found in the body of Christ. I just left a post earlier under the Father has no Equals or "Co-Equals" thread that is in Doctrine/Beliefs/Proofs...thread that will explain further what I mean. If you dont mind, please read it and leave a reply with your thoughts over there so this thread is not disrupted. Thanks | ||
| doug Senior Member Username: doug Post Number: 1192 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.255.83.79 |
Plow Deep, Done! Jacob, I think there was a time for the outward Church but it's over but even then I think they had the right perspective on the purpose for having the outward organ |
