| Author | Message | ||
     trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 399 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Concerning Joyce Meyers expensive home it is not just a nice reasonable and comfortable place to live but extremely extravagant. The house is 10,000 square feet ,with cost and improvements totaling $1,795,000.00. The house has 6 bedrooms ,5 baths ,a putting green,ingorund swimming pool ,8 car air condition/heated garage,a guest house with more than 2 bedrooms and gazebo. Let's take a look now at some of the Joyce Meyer ministry etravagances. Inside Meyer's private office suite sit a conference table and 18 chairs bought for $49,000. The woodwork alone just in the offices of Meyer and her husband cost the ministry $44,000 . A Jefferson County assessor's list offers a glimpse into the value of many of the items: a $19,000 pair of Dresden vases, six French crystal vases bought for $18,500, an $8,000 Dresden porcelain depicting the Nativity, two $5,800 curio cabinets, a $5,700 porcelain of the Crucifixion, a pair of German porcelain vases bought for $5,200. The decor includes a $30,000 malachite round table, a $23,000 marble-topped antique commode, a $14,000 custom office bookcase, a $7,000 Stations of the Cross in Dresden porcelain, a $6,300 eagle sculpture on a pedestal, another eagle made of silver bought for $5,000, and numerous paintings purchased for $1,000 to $4,000 each. In all, assessor's records of the ministry's personal property show that nearly $5.7 million worth of furniture, artwork, glassware, and the latest equipment and machinery fill the 158,000-square-foot building. A $23,000 marble-topped antique commode! As of this summer, the ministry also owned a fleet of vehicles with an estimated value of $440,000. The Jefferson County assessor has been trying to get the complex and its contents added to the tax rolls but has failed. Wall Watchers ministry says Joyce Meyer Ministries has had a long history of not being financially transparent. Along with the family compound, expensive cars. and jet airplanes. She does 15 to 17 meetings a year by jet plane costing $4,000 per hour for jet operating costs plus the maintenance costs. All of which cost a minimum of five times more than if she flew first class commercial air. Sources: The Meyer Family Compound http://www.rickross.com/reference/meyer/meyer13.html http://wittenburgdoor.com/archives/airmen.html Recently exposed spender Joyce Meyer has her own Challenger jet 600. This one's only worth $4.5 million. LIFESTYLES OF THE TELE-EVANGELISTS: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html#4 Wall Watchers Ministry Watch http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/F_SumRpt.asp?EIN=431382734 | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 219 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
Who cares? | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 402 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
jbkrems, Who cares? God cares! Obviously you don't care. God cares because of all the people that won't be saved with the money Joyce and you frivoulously spend on status things not souls, because of Joyces AND OTHERS lust and lousy MISGUIDED stewardship of money. Gods word says your money, treasure(mammon) is where your HEART is" Matthew 9:21 Everything we have is Gods. "The EARTH is the Lords and everything that is in it." 100% not just 10% is Gods. We are just STEWARDS over it. "WE are bought with a price." Luke 16 Jesus tells us he who is faithful with little money will be faithful with much, the Gospel for souls Well you lust after the same things, and not for souls, which is why you defend this evil stewardship. You are a fool, a bad steward to support and to give money to places where no results are proven, and too lazy to check where no accountability is shown. This is standard for other ministries who care about integrity, souls and a good name. So keep sowing your money God gives you into a toilet, dark hole which has no ground, no results for a return "Prove how many souls are won by Joyce." All other ministries with integrity can prove by their good follow up how many souls are won with the money and outreach. Results are necessary for good manaagement and stewardship to prove which to prune, which to end, and which to support. Change the losing strategies and support the winning ones. Jesus TOLD US AND called us "TO BEAR MUCH FRUIT" John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 228 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
trsrinheaven: Again, as in the Creflo Dollar thread, you just don't understand. I was using "Who cares" as a rhetorical device, because the attack is unfounded. I am originally from St. Louis, and a lot of people there COMPLAIN about the extravagance of Joyce Meyer and her husband Dave. I think that is wrong, who are we to judge how someone spends their money, so long as they are not embezzling funds or being a poor steward by falling into debt, or doing something illegal or against the Word of God. None of that applies to Joyce Meyer. One thing you fail to understand is that Joyce Meyer has separate ministry and personal expenses. So she has a large house and nice car. That is her perorgative. God has richly blessed her with those items. Joyce Meyer DOES win lots of souls, regardless. She has massive conferences where people are won to the Lord. She does altar calls in all the services. I went to see her when she came to Oklahoma City, so I personally know. She also has altar calls at least once a week on her TV show, and so she wins SOULS that way as well. Her stewardship is NOT evil. Who are you to judge it as so? Are you God? | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 407 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
jbkrems, You miss the point. Her bad stewardship and bad example as a teacher is terrible. I judge her ideas, and her actions use of Gods offering money and have every right to do so. COUNTLESS VERSES IN THE BIBLE TELL ME SO, AND COUNTLESS LAY PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE EXPOSED, REBUKED, REPROVED, AND CORRECTED LEADERS IN PUBLIC AND THEIR WRONGDOING OF BIBLICAL LEADERS. What about the millions of people that could be saved and aren't with the millions of OFFFERING money dollars she spends on airplanes, houses, jewelry, vases,expensive clothes, plastic surgery, $100k cars, multimillion dollar houses, AND LAVISH LIVING ETC.. She's a trailer park bad taste mentality that tries to justify her spending but can't Biblically justify it. Jesus, Paul and others would put the welfare of the Gospel and peoples souls FIRST over ever wasting money on wasteful status symbol wathches, cars , airplanes, houses etc. God cares because of all the people that won't be saved with the money Joyce and you frivoulously spend on status things not souls, because of Joyces AND OTHERS lust and lousy MISGUIDED stewardship of money. Gods word says your money, treasure(mammon) is where your HEART is" Matthew 9:21 We know where Joyce and your heart is. In things not people. A few good works are just a smoke screen to gain her money, importance, power, status, and the celebrity limelight of people. She is the reason many refuse Christ because of her untrustworthiness usage of money. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 231 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
trsrinheaven: Joyce Meyer most likely has separate budgets/accounts/expenses for her personal life, to cover home, car, etc; and then for her ministry, and all that she requires for that. Concerning the millions of people that could be saved... you fail to distinguish the funds that go to her ministry, and the funds that she gets as SALARY, which she and Dave earn, and spend on personal items, e.g. house and car. There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits Joyce's personal expenditures. | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 410 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
jbkrem, You ASSume a lot with no proof. You call this good stewardship Mercedes-Benz S-Class S55 AMG Sedan Dealer Price Quotes MSRP: $114,150 Invoice Price: $106,160 for Dave, $60k plus lexus for her, and a list a mile long of expensive stuff all from offering money. http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html#4 You also show you are BIBLICALLY IGNORANT about what Jesus and the Bible says about money! You could say if you were Biblically ignorant that there is nothing saying not to smoke or sit on cactus either. Read Luke 16:1-17 and ... "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? 13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. " | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 234 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
trsrinheaven: Its not all from offering money. The offering money goes to their ministry, and that stuff is personal stuff, NOT ministry stuff. You do not understand the distinction. It is the love of money that is wicked, not the mere spending of money. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 512 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
trs Why must you always resort to personal, rude attacks with anyone who doesn't agree with you? Everyone has the right to post here and that doesn't give YOU the right to be rude. You are so obsessed with the finances of many ministries - whether I agree with you or not, I think you need to take out some of the logs in your OWN eye; then you can attempt to help remove the specks in others'. You are pseudo-Christian hypocracy at its worst. | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 411 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cybermom, I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Why do you always seem so weak and frail, and call someone rude (which is a relative term) if they are Biblically straight to the point. Jesus must have been the rudest person alive when he verbally and even physically attacked some and attacked his own disciples, called people dogs, vipers, and other names etc. What personal attacks other than stating facts of clear Biblical ignorance? If that sounds hard for you I'll pray for your healing. When it is life or death God takes this seriously. Fivilous spending of offering money that holds life and death in the balance. Money is serious business according to Jesus. It's correct Stewardship usage makes the difference from people coming to Christ or being lost without being reached. Misuse of money causes people not to be reached, to die and go into a Godless eternity. Cybermom you need a change in your heart if you don't understand this, money is for the Gospel to reach people. Christians need to get this straight that money is attached to many important things of life and death proportion. Jesus gave you a great commission. Salvation is not just for you. "Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come! 18But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him]. Read 2Cor5 You didn't get raptured when you received Christ. You are here for relationship with God and this main ministry reason. Biblically money has these main reasons attached to it. Misuse of money causes souls to die. 1. Soulwinning To people being won or lost.(For a lack of money put into soul winning usage people die and go into a Godless eternity. 2. Jesus said money is located attached to your heart. Mt9:21 Where you spend your money displays where your heart is. In people or ridiculous things such as $30,000 watches. (People making $30,000 watches etc. do the economy and the world a diservice. The employ few people, and hoard money into wasteful useless areas.) 3. Money and the power to get it is granted to establish the new covenant.(The Gospel) Deut 8:18 18But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. 19And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. 20As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God " | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.187.10 |
People can be wealthy and spend their money how they choose, if that money is earned honestly. HOWEVER, I bet it breaks God's heart to see Christians paying themselves exorbitant salaries from Christian ministries when the money SHOULD be going to save souls, help inner city and third world people and so on. Yes, Christian speakers and musicians have a right to earn and income from their books and CDs---but IS IT RIGHT to charge more than the non-Christians for those items?!!! Or to "beg" money to support their ministries when they are living lavish life styles?! I never have travelled first class, let alone owned a private jet BECAUSE I CAN'T AFFORD IT---and I am a teacher living at the middle class level. WHY SHOULD SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN MINISTERS/SPEAKERS RAKE IN MONEY, LIVING EXTRAVAGANTLY?! That's a bad witness to the world! Nina | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 538 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
trs, I think you are the one in need of a change in heart. For one thing, I don't think your name calling and obvious "rudeness" is winning anyone to the Lord. For another ... Yes, money should be used to support those in ministry who preach the good news to the lost and to support those teachers among us that show us how to continue on in the faith. But scripture is also clear that we have an obligation to help our Christian brothers and sisters who are in need. Jesus helped the poor and taught us to do the same. And so did early church leaders. We have plenty of scripture that instruct us to share what we have with those in need. It's not all about getting people saved and then moving on. We are bringing people into the family of God and once there it becomes our responsibility to take care of one another. One of the problems with the prosperity gospel is that people start blaming the poor for being poor. They see no reason to help those in need other than to rebuke them for having no faith. This is not scriptural. Don't let your vision to see the lost saved prevent you from seeing that these are real people with real needs. Our obligation towards them does not stop once they come to the Lord ... in fact, it's only beginning. | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 412 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Marta, Soulwinning is top priority above helping the poor. I believe in both but too many denominations just help the poor and get no one saved and give no Gospel. Jesus did both feed the hungry physically and spiritually. Jesus said the meat the food that he eats is to do the work of His Father (Soulwinning). I believe in helping the poor and WITH no strings attached except to do it including the Gospel. Too many churches tie money to unBiblical strings and check to see first if you are member in good standing, how much you tithe, attendance records etc before they will help those in need of food, clothing, rent, mortgage, gas money, or even a single mother needing her car fixed. Name callling? What name calling? I didn't call anyone names...I did suggest Biblical ignorance, suggested the impression of weakness, religious pioty, and self righteous PS "The poor you always have with you..." Jesus said...but then Proverbs said this and Common sense would tell you "It's Better to be poor and saved than rich and not" You and cbm both sound religious sometimes.... Getting peope saved, helping the poor, and then helping those poor while to learn, find income and and get themselves to place to receive their needs met and help others is productive. Too many churches also only help once and then don't help those people make the bridge from benevolent welfare recipients to being self sufficient able to give every good work and help others finacially themselves. They look down on those in need. I have seen wonderful giving Christians have hard times who when they needed help the same churches and ministries they gave thousands too turned their backs. Now the vision to see the lost is saved IS NOT MY VISION. It's Jesus top command. Gods top priority and ministry given to every Christian. after loving the Lord thy God... Mk 16, 2Cor5: You can't buy your way into a relationship and salvation with God. But if you don't HEAR the Gospel you have a hard time getting saved. Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? The problem is too few people, churches and so called ministries are not even getting people saved, let alone making them disciples. Doing both is multiplying the Gospel. When the curtain falls on ones life all that matters is if they are saved.I have never seen a moving truck or Uhauls following a hearse. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 539 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
Matthew 25:31-40 "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. Then the King will say to those on the right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.' "Then these righteous ones will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?' And the King will tell them, 'I assure you, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!' | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 414 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Amen Marta! We all need an eternal outlook on our lives and value system. This life is so short next to eternity. Along with the Apostles I have read about the lives of so many great Christians who made a difference and they all saw this life as so short. So little time so many to reach, so much to do. The harvest is (ripe)white unto harvest but the laborers are few. No Christian has to ever sit on their blessed assurance and wonder what their ministry is. We are all privledged with the high greatest "ministry of reconciliation" 2Cor5 A good thing to note is . . . "There is no such thing as a PEW MINISTRY listed in the Bible." I "Pray ye therefore for laborers." "God searches too and fro looking for someone he can show himself strong in." 2 Chronicles 16 | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 513 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
jbkrem, You ASSume a lot with no proof. trs Ok - you don't call this rude? This is the only point I'm trying to make. I'm not arguing with you about how much $ is wasted in the ministries you love to hate. I'm talking about winning souls and taking into consideration that many non-believers read these posts. With your namecalling and attitude, many have to work hard to know which "side" you're on. I've been treated with more respect from the non-Christians here than from you. 'Nough said. CM | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 415 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cbm, If you quit being wrong, and rude youself, poking your nose in where it doesn't belong, and take the time to read without coming in at midstream you would save yourself. I am not your enemy here... but if you choose this course of foolishness and false accusations go ahead take your best shots. I have never addressed you personally that I recall so when you say "I've been treated with more respect from the non-Christians here than from you." "me thinks you doth protest too much" More like I know you protest wrongly. You are the rude one to chime in from left field with your religious misinterpretations, pious attitudes, and join the pharisees judgmental baloney. You're religious judgments, no sense of humor, thinskinned comments, and you misconstrue most people here that don't agree with you. You seem to be on both sides of the fence...Kissing up doesn't make you right. Many people call those people miss glass, and have to walk on egg shells. At least you know where I stand. "When you stand for nothing you fall for anything." Jbkrems can take care of himself if you look at his posts. I did not namecall. You are using the wrong term here. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 514 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
trs I am free to "stick my nose in" whenever and whereever I choose to because this is a public forum and free speech does exist. You do not have sole right to post on this or any other thread. There are many people who lurk here without posting at all - do they also need your permission to post? I always find you an interesting specimen - you resort to personal attacks, speculation and sarcasm whenever you feel someone is disagreeing with you or pointing out an area in need of improvement. Do you have anyone that you permit to speak anything into your life? If you will cool off, drop the paranoia and actually read what I've said, I'm will state again that I'm not defending anyone or any ministry. I'm merely showing you that you have attitudes that need major adjustments. I've tried this in the past, to no avail because you have shown that you cannot/will not receive ANY admonishment or correction. You don't have the maturity or emotional security to rationally discuss any topic. So I won't waste my time trying to talk sense to someone who doesn't seem to possess any. Why don't you start your own threads - better yet, your OWN website, and keep it by invitation only; that way you'll only have to deal with those who completely agree with you. marta, Thanks for the encouraging words. You are among the few who can carry on a civil, godly conversation with those who may not agree with you. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 515 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
Actually, trs, your posts remind me of many robbite posters from the older FHC threads - isn't that sad? BTW, I don't live in a glass house; when I've been wrong, I admit it, repent and ask forgiveness. I don't recall you EVER doing that. Maybe you don't think you're ever wrong. CM | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 418 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cbm, I understand how you feel. Next time let me know your true feelings don't hold back or tip toe around.  Actually I have felt the same way at times...but I have found that this impersonal posting is limited in expression, and some people are having a bad day, blood sugar, tired, misunderstand, which leads to people getting offended, tempers flaring, all sorts of variables etc. Let me make myself clear. PLEASE FORGIVE ME! Again "I am not your enemy here"... but you made false accusations and you avoided answering the question. Note: "I have never addressed you personally that I recall so when you said "I've been treated with more respect from the non-Christians here than from you." it makes me wonder how. Answer me "When have I ever addressed you before these replys to your railing accusing? There is no time I can recall other than now ever posting to you even once. "me thinks you doth protest too much" More like I know you protest wrongly. So again Let me make myself clear. PLEASE FORGIVE ME! For whatever.... PS I do not hate anyone. You also made false assumptions, (sounding like dime store psychology and religious piety). You cant be sure of and have no idea of anyones motives here. You instead assume. The point is it takes money, resources, time and effort to share the good news. Joyce and too many others waste millions of offering dollars that they allot it to themselves, that could reach millions of people before they die but never do. They make claims but show no harvest. After lustful spending like this, they then preach stewardship and cry to everyone for money and put many in bondage of fear of God if they do not give to them. (They have no real boards to answer to and no accountability. Some have their own fake rubber stamp boards that allow them carte blanche to do anything they want with the money. They give no audited financial statements, NOR SHOW PROOF OF RESULTS with every dollar which is standard and wise among non profit ministry and other organizations OF INTEGRITY. ) God cares about where every dollar goes to because God cares about every person. God cares first and foremost that "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." They also put themselves up pompously to follow as public examples(and they are not good examples) to young believers, all believers and non believers and thus come under the Biblical authority and even greater stringency such as: " when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ." 1Cor8 21"It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." Mark 9:42 "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 165 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
TRS I don't need anyone on my side or the encouraging words of anyone else to tell you that you act like a jerk. BTW, first and foremost, you're assertion that CM has no sense of humor is ridiculous. YOU are humorless and you're rude. If you don't like Bro Copeland, Andrew Wommack, Creflo Dollar and other WOF ministers - don't give them money. You're always on Factnet calling other people bad stewards, when you and Infoman are the ones who gave money to ministries (like AWMI who then supports Copeland, Robb Thompsen whom you now revile, and some other church on the southside pastored by Greg Somebody) that you now wish you had back. So not only are you not very discerning where you give, but you also rip your seed out of the ground by criticizing the soil in which you planted it in. Recap: YOU give to ministries who support ministries that you disagree with, YOU gave to ministries that you now take issue with and say that they are abusive with offering money and you are rude when people disagree with you. YOU HAVE ZERO CREDIBILITY. YOU ARE ONE OF THE WORST STEWARDS OF MONEY I KNOW OF AND YOU COME ON FACTNET AND PRESENT YOURSELF AS AN AUTHORITY ON FINANCES?   | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 166 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
"You and cbm both sound religious sometimes..." Let me say this also, I disagree 100% with CM and Marta about many, many things. I have gone at it with both of them on more than one occasion and when they write things that I disagree with I will more than likely to do so again. However, I simply agree to disagree with them because I KNOW that they are Christians. YOU and YOUR IDIOTIC LOGIC I WILL BATTLE UNTIL I NO LONGER OWN A COMPUTER. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 167 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
TRS: Answer these simple questions... 1) How much house is okay for a minister, married with two small children (in square footage)? 2) How much should a minister earn yearly? 3) What is an appropriate automobile for a minister (make, model and value)? 4) What is an appropriate pair of shoes (how much is okay to spend)? 5) What do you feel is okay to spend on a suit? Five easy questions. | ||
| actvthinkr Junior Member Username: actvthinkr Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 69.170.85.57 |
The answer to all five of your questions, if I may (in my opinion) would be, whatever lifestyle she can afford herself with a job outside of the ministry. When you post scripture on Factnet or speak to your friends and help them understand your beliefs or clarify a scripture, with the like, to people, you don't ask for money. You do it with kindness in your heart to help them understand. I do not give to those ministries and I give and help where I feel a need and when I'm moved to do so. It is between myself and God. I am not qualified to stand in judgment of Joyce, for I'm not God. Paul set a good example in Corinthians when he spoke of working with his own hands until he was weary, but he did not charge for his teaching. The offering he collected was for those less fortunate. I would gladly help pay the utilities for a church, if someone were to say "hey it's gonna cost this much to keep the lights on so we can meet and revere our lord" not a problem. But it is hard to see people with no other income outside of the church or their ministry living a lavish lifestyle. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 172 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
"The answer to all five of your questions, if I may (in my opinion) would be, whatever lifestyle she can afford herself with a job outside of the ministry." You are not TRS, however, I think this is one fair method of determining the relative "worth" of one's work. I am not so sure I agree with the rest but so what? Give as you are led to give and I will do likewise. I would add, that this is between me, God and my bank account. PS I do my best to never, ever besmirch the Word of God by using it on Factnet, or in arguments to prove MY point. Having said that, I am most interested in hearing these answers (5 simple questions) from TRS/Ult1/IM. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 543 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
PS I do my best to never, ever besmirch the Word of God by using it on Factnet, or in arguments to prove MY point. I'm glad you cleared that up ... because I was thinking that you didn't post scripture to defend your beliefs or to prove that what you believe is scriptural was because you couldn't. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 179 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
can't tell if you are "funnin'" me or not... The Word of God is referred to as a sword in Revelation, and it is sharper than a two-edged sword in Hebrews. Two sides of one blade... one side for the devil (as in Matt 4:1) and one side for me. And not to be used ON others, but that's how I raised in the Word. I'm sure others feel differently about it. Obviously. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 180 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
PS When have you and I ever discussed what I believe? | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 127 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.183.9 |
My intent is not to be rude, but the topic WAS Joyce Meyer's ministry and the misappropriation of funds. Regarding that subject: James 3 states that those in a teaching capacity will be held to a higher standard---presumably because they ARE role models. Unfortunately many people have moved from a model of a plurality of elders, to more of a single pastor(s) in charge of everything model. I think that church models that have a church board are much more healthy, because having more people involved is a good checks and balances mode. Is it suitable for a pastor/teacher to live extravagantly while begging for $? No, of course not! Should a pastor be paid a decent wage in line with the median of the congregation? That's reasonable. If it's a small congregation or a poor congregation, then (as in our rural community) many pastors hold full-time jobs and pastor for free or a minimum salary. It's absolutely abhorrant for people such as Joyce, to lavish $ on themselves, when the money SHOULD go to preaching the gospel, feeding the poor, and true ministry work. Please, no more arguing! Stick to the facts! Nina | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 183 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
Who's arguing? What are the "facts"? Let's get some numbers down, in black and white if you want "facts"... 1) How much house is okay for a minister, married with two small children (in square footage)? 2) How much should a minister earn yearly? 3) What is an appropriate automobile for a minister (make, model and value)? 4) What is an appropriate pair of shoes (how much is okay to spend)? 5) What do you feel is okay to spend on a suit? Five easy questions. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 516 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
GG Thanks. We may not disagree (how boring would that be) but we can discuss topics together without resorting to childish tactics. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a grade school playground. And, yes I do have a sense of humor - probably too sarcastic at times. Marta is also someone who can carry on a conversation in a mature and godly way. I appreciate that and her. trs Yes, we have had previous discussions that went nowhere because you simply cannot agree to disagree, as GG has stated. Flaming also gets you nowhere; the sooner you figure that out the better. Or wait, maybe it was one of your other personalities - i-man, u1 - I can't remember now. Please don't try to say those others aren't you. You've pulled a Doug B and answered posts adressed to one name with a different one. There are WOF ministries that I glean from and others that I won't listen to. I don't feel that any of us has a corner on the truth - if we did, then we'd need someone to start a thread about US. Joyce Meyer has many good things to share; so does Beth Moore, James Robison, David Jeremiah, etc. Don't throw out an entire ministry based simply on how someone spends their money. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 517 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
GG Thanks. We may not disagree (how boring would that be) but we can discuss topics together without resorting to childish tactics. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a grade school playground. And, yes I do have a sense of humor - probably too sarcastic at times. Marta is also someone who can carry on a conversation in a mature and godly way. I appreciate that and her. trs Yes, we have had previous discussions that went nowhere because you simply cannot agree to disagree, as GG has stated. Flaming also gets you nowhere; the sooner you figure that out the better. Or wait, maybe it was one of your other personalities - i-man, u1 - I can't remember now. Please don't try to say those others aren't you. You've pulled a Doug B and answered posts adressed to one name with a different one. There are WOF ministries that I glean from and others that I won't listen to. I don't feel that any of us has a corner on the truth - if we did, then we'd need someone to start a thread about US. Joyce Meyer has many good things to share; so does Beth Moore, James Robison, David Jeremiah, etc. Don't throw out an entire ministry based simply on how someone spends their money. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 518 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
GG Thanks. We may not disagree (how boring would that be) but we can discuss topics together without resorting to childish tactics. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a grade school playground. And, yes I do have a sense of humor - probably too sarcastic at times. Marta is also someone who can carry on a conversation in a mature and godly way. I appreciate that and her. trs Yes, we have had previous discussions that went nowhere because you simply cannot agree to disagree, as GG has stated. Flaming also gets you nowhere; the sooner you figure that out the better. Or wait, maybe it was one of your other personalities - i-man, u1 - I can't remember now. Please don't try to say those others aren't you. You've pulled a Doug B and answered posts adressed to one name with a different one. There are WOF ministries that I glean from and others that I won't listen to. I don't feel that any of us has a corner on the truth - if we did, then we'd need someone to start a thread about US. Joyce Meyer has many good things to share; so does Beth Moore, James Robison, David Jeremiah, etc. Don't throw out an entire ministry based simply on how someone spends their money. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 519 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
GG Thanks. We may not disagree (how boring would that be) but we can discuss topics together without resorting to childish tactics. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a grade school playground. And, yes I do have a sense of humor - probably too sarcastic at times. Marta is also someone who can carry on a conversation in a mature and godly way. I appreciate that and her. trs Yes, we have had previous discussions that went nowhere because you simply cannot agree to disagree, as GG has stated. Flaming also gets you nowhere; the sooner you figure that out the better. Or wait, maybe it was one of your other personalities - i-man, u1 - I can't remember now. Please don't try to say those others aren't you. You've pulled a Doug B and answered posts adressed to one name with a different one. There are WOF ministries that I glean from and others that I won't listen to. I don't feel that any of us has a corner on the truth - if we did, then we'd need someone to start a thread about US. Joyce Meyer has many good things to share; so does Beth Moore, James Robison, David Jeremiah, etc. Don't throw out an entire ministry based simply on how someone spends their money. | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 128 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.183.9 |
Well, I believe that I ANSWERED your 5 questions by stating that an appropriate salary for a minister is the median of the congregation---unless it is a poor congregation that can't afford a salary and so the minister would have a full-time job like many of our ministers here in our rural area. Should a minister be micromanaged? No, of course not. Should a minister be act responsibly? Yes. Nina | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 187 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
You have an awesome sense of humor, and you are a fair and just boxing/roller derby referee. Regrettably, I resort to all manner of childish tactics when it comes to IM-EM-U1-TRS, etc!... And furthermore, I agree. There are WOF ministries that I get very much from and there are others that I simply don't get much. I financially support those who feed me, it's that simple. Have a great day CM! | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 520 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
GG We all understand. There are times when enough is enough and we snap. But that's what the Blood of Jesus and His forgiveness is for. I thought of another "contest" - what do you call it when the guys are in a large cage, and there are no-holds-barred? (you can see I don't know much about WWE/WWF,etc) I'd be glad to referee that one, too. CM | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 454 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cybermom, I stated this above twice before and So again Let me make myself clear. PLEASE FORGIVE ME! For whatever.... Note: "I have never addressed you personally that I recall so when you said "I've been treated with more respect from the non-Christians here than from you." it makes me wonder how. Answer me "When have I ever addressed you before these replys to your railing accusing? There is no time I can recall other than now ever posting to you even once. You post above "Yes, we have had previous discussions that went nowhere.." Prove it post them....with any of us... WHERE? WHEN? POST THEM ! Prove it! POST THEM! "me thinks you doth protest too much" Some people here are OBSESSED and revert to all sorts of rude tactics. They cannot stand to have the sand they stand on pulled out from under them. Some are also the passive Christian wimps and slothfuls. They mimic the battle cry "touch not Gods annointed" and do nothing to stop these cults from destroying more lives. They make statements like "don't do anything because God will handle this." These are the same people who usually because of fear, not caring or slothfulness, think osmosis not speaking out will get people saved. If Christians take the attitude of not telling others the the truth NO ONE WOULD BE SAVED. Its not time for a smackdown and "Ultimate Fighting Championship" (thats the cage fights your are thinking of) I will say this one last time(I wasn't going to explain this again but one last shot at proving to you the simple truth.) As I said many times before. There are a number of us here. If you are blessed enough to own more than one computer type a post from both computers and notice the ips are the same. We have the same server and multiple networked wireless computers at out offices. Everytime anyone of us post we are assigned the same ip. If you post using the same server the same ip comes up every time. We have the fastest internet server available. Unless we change individual servers(which would be stupid, unworkable for business, and at more cost for no reason) we will always have the same ip from our server. We do not all have time to be here so it varies. One or more of us may answer or post depending. Four out of seven of us have had the same experiences with these churches. Some of us know personally many of these ministries and staff. All of us have first hand experience, agree on and seen the lack of souls being won, lack of fruit being borne versus all the money being spent by these cults -so called ministries. PS Joyce and others all have said something good and to share as you stated; but as a whole they ALL carry these fatal flaws of error with this LOW RESULTS for the money spent, and bad stewardship lustful lavish wasteful over the top spending on useless garbage for themselves rather than as much on souls. I also know how to "spit the bones out and eat the chicken." but in these cases there are too many bones and little meat. "Rightly dividing the word" is important. The bad examples being displayed, bad stewardship, bad witness and lost opportunities to win souls is sad and means the difference of life or death. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 521 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
Some people here are OBSESSED and revert to all sorts of rude tactics. They cannot stand to have the sand they stand on pulled out from under them. Gee, was this directed to me, because this sounds just like you, trs/im. Please, I know your many names - don't insult my intelligence by pretending you have only one. I will try to find some of our "conversations" but I know you will deny it was you - wow, it's really convenient to have many screen names so when someone confronts you, you can say it wasn't you; there really IS a method to your madness. Is there really much of a point in my looking?? I really don't care about IP's etc. that's a smokescreen anyway. When you've been here a while, you know how people communicate, cut/paste, OBSESS, etc. I appreciate Joyce Meyer's work with orphans, the lost, prisoners, etc. Most other WOF ministries can't touch her when it comes to outreaches to the poor. One reason we left FHC was because their outreaches (when they HAD them) were self-serving (at least that is one small area we can agree on); as for prison ministry, Thompson had NO use for that - in his opinion, criminals can't change. I'm blessed that tho she's not perfect, Joyce Meyer doesn't feel that way. CM | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 523 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
trs I went to the thread we posted on but the posts have been deleted. What's the difference? If you are truly apologizing for your rudeness, then I forgive you. If you still say we haven't had past discussions, then you're in denial, but I still forgive you. CM | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 455 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cybermom. I find you using this denial you are calling me a liar. Find someone with two or more computers on-line using the same server and post from each of them then you will see the same ip for both. If you are blessed enough to own more than one computer and you use the same server ie(aol, msn, netscape etc)type a post from both computers and notice the ips are the same. ifm, trs, and four others post from our server. They are six different people. I do not know their passwords nor care. Three of us go to the same fellowship group etc. We do not vary much in our thinking but we do vary in gender, age, race, education, culture, background etc.. I do recall posting about the same subject but I am unable to find any back and forth communication ever with between either of us...so post it if you find it. We cannot delete it. PS Joyce uses less than 10% of the income on the ministries you mention, and others. This is unaudited information received from her statements. She uses more of her income for her personal spending than that. | ||
| nikita Intermediate Member Username: nikita Post Number: 418 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.167.68.209 |
geezzz already Cybermom.... ...no ofense but you seem really obsessed with trs, and dont even seem to pay attention to any of the content of what he writes....other than what you percieve to be rude. It seems as though you are looking for something wrong with him. Why? I have seen almost everyone behave in a rude manner at one time or other on these posts. Cant you just drop it? Why cant everyone just try and get along? There is a fine line between calling someone rude...and becoming rude yourself...by constantly doing so. Now...please do not be offended by this. Im not trying to make you angry (or even be rude). Why dont we all just move on and discuss these topics like the wonderful Christians that we all really are. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 524 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
nikita What you suggest would be possible in an ideal world. But when someone is rude, then they're rude. I can post to them about it if I choose. They can respond or not - that's also their choice. I'm not offended by your post, nor am I angry - you make several good points. I try not to overreact when criticized (of course I'm not always successful) - which is something I can't say for some people (I'm not referring to you); I guess it rubs me the wrong way when people go ballistic and start name-calling and resorting to other childish tactics whenever their posts are challenged. I have tried to agree to disagree with posters here; trs can't and it bugs me. As for his content, there really isn't much except what he has posted time after time. Thanks for your post - good food for thought; it's been a long time since you've been here. CM | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 198 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
<--- not going to say a word (Message edited by gsrh on June 28, 2006) | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 456 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Meyer's yes board. Meyer can spend the ministry's money any way she sees fit because her board of directors is handpicked and funded by Meyers who bought two of them houses. It consists of Meyer, her husband and all four of her children — all paid workers — as well as six of Meyer's closest friends. (Ministry officials said that daughter Laura Holtzmann has now resigned; state records still list her on the board.) " Board members Roxane and Paul Schermann are such close friends that for more than a decade they lived in the Meyers' home. The ministry employed both of them as high-level managers and in 2001 bought them a $334,000 home. Roxane Schermann no longer works at the ministry; her husband continues as a paid division manager. The board decides how the ministry's money is spent. Meyer and her ministry refuse to tell how much the ministry pays Meyer, her husband, her children and her children's spouses. " Such an overlap between top administrators and board members concerns the IRS because "the opportunity to manipulate and control the organization is easier to accomplish," said Bruce Philipson of St. Paul, Minn., the IRS group manager of tax-exempt organizations for this region.(Carolyn Tuft and Bill Smith St. Louis Post-Dispatch 11/15/2003) | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 279 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.134.190 |
trsinheaven: Do you have any hardcore documentation or evidence that Joyce Meyer Ministries ACTUALLY (not speculative) commits tax fraud or the like? | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.181.181 |
Please look at the web pages listed in the very first post of this thread. Nina | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 470 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Meyer received millions, records show St. Louis Post-Dispatch TV evangelist Joyce Meyer and her family have received millions in salary and benefits from her worldwide ministry in recent years, according to newly released records. The documents, were obtained by the Post-Dispatch under Missouri's Open Records laws. They paint a picture of a minister and her family who have reaped huge financial rewards from the ministry they created and control. Over 20 years, Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton has grown to over $90 million-a-year empire with TV and radio programs that reach millions of people in about 70 countries. Among the details included in the financial statements, board minutes and other documents Meyer provided to the assessor of Jefferson County in a dispute over the tax-exempt status of its headquarters property: The ministry's board of trustees, which is headed by Joyce Meyer, agreed to pay her a $900,000 annual salary in 2002 and 2003. The board agreed to give her husband, Dave Meyer, the board's vice president, an annual salary of $450,000 in each of those same two years. The board agreed to provide the couple with free personal use of a corporate jet and luxury cars, a $2 million home where all bills are paid by the ministry and a separate $50,000-a-year housing allowance. The ministry paid $1.475 million to buy three houses for the three Meyer children. The board authorized Joyce and Dave Meyer to control a $790,000 fund to be used at their discretion for bonuses to "executive management." The job duties of seven employees of the ministry include sorting gifts "personally received" for Joyce and David Meyer, including cash and jewelry. Meyer, a former bookkeeper who has built one of the world's largest television ministries, has faced criticism from watchdog groups and the Jefferson County assessor in recent years. Federal law bars founders of tax-exempt religious organizations from reaping huge personal benefits from their ministries. Salaries of religious leaders must be reasonable. Joyce and Dave Meyer declined through a spokesman to be interviewed for this article. Ministry spokesman Mark Sutherland scheduled a news conference at the Fenton headquarters Friday after the Post-Dispatch posed questions regarding the Meyer family members' salaries and perks. He said Meyer was holding a three-day religious event in Hershey, Pa. Sutherland noted that Meyer has never denied getting a hefty salary. The ministry still provides the Meyers with free use of the home, the cars, the plane and an $80,000 annual retirement contribution, he said. Meyer also receives a portion of the $3 million a year in royalties earned from books and tapes sold at bookstores, Sutherland said. He declined to provide a specific figure. Meyer has 70 books in print, including one on the New York Times bestseller list. Critics say that Meyer should not personally be receiving royalties because the ministry and workers paid by the ministry produce the books and tapes. Setting salaries, perks Copies of minutes from ministry board meetings in 2001 and 2002 indicate that Joyce and Dave Meyer participated in board meetings where their salaries and perks were approved. Minutes also show that three of the children, who are also board members, sat in on votes when the board approved the purchase of homes for them. The minutes prepared by the board's secretary describe the family members as attending and that the votes were unanimous. They do not reflect that anyone abstained from a vote. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 317 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.134.190 |
trsrinheaven: Here are the some follow-up questions: (1) How old is this article? What is its date? (2) What was the motive of the newspaper for obtaining these records? (3) How does someone define "huge personal benefits" and how does someone define a "reasonable salary"? (4) What is wrong with the last two sentences of your post that are in bold print? | ||
| hewrote New member Username: hewrote Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.21.76.34 |
Deuteronomy 6:10-12 10 When the LORD your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. To the thread. | ||
| hewrote New member Username: hewrote Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.21.76.34 |
Deuteronomy 6:10-12 10 When the LORD your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. To the thread. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
She should live at the earnings level of her supporters. To live high on the hog in comparison to the average American looks really bad, and that doesn't win people. Just looks like it's all about the money. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 96 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Just looks like it's all about the money. Uhhhh ... It IS all about the money. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 97 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I think it's sad that more people can't tell the difference between a minister and a business person. Meyer is a business person, NOT a minister. Her organization exists to promote and profit Joyce Meyer ..... not God, not Jesus, and not the church. I would have nothing against Meyer is she was honest and ran her organization as a business. The world is full of people who make their living as life coaches, gurus, etc. But I object strongly to those who take money by deceit by claiming to be serving God. Jesus said "The greatest among you must be a servant." Joyce Meyer has no desire to serve others, she only wants to be served. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Marta, Have you ever watched any of Joyce Meyer's television programs? Have you ever attended one of her conferences? How can you fairly and honestly say that "Her organization exists to promote and profit Joyce Meyer... not God, not Jesus, and not the church," - ??? If you truly knew Joyce Meyer, you would KNOW that she DOES have a desire to serve others, and does not really want to be served herself. | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 98 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
jbkrems, | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
If you want to be rich, don't do what Meyer says ... do what she does. There's big money in exploiting people who are desperate. Just make sure you give a little back (and make a big show of it) so people think you are a man/woman of God. What a joke! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
Marta, You don't know what you're talking about. I know someone personally who works for her. What you suggest isn't so. When are you going to be willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and stop your endless, fruitless speculations? | ||
| marta Member Username: marta Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
The evidence is overwhelming but still you refuse to accept it. When are you going to open your eyes and admit there is a problem? And so we continue ... the blind being led by the blind ..... | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 176 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
Regardless how old the evidence is, it seems somewhat well documented that the ministry provided/provides most of that stuff. Now JBK, what do you personally think about that kind of opulence? I find it beyond excessive and tantamount to stealing for a number of reasons. When I found out about her living accomodations and her families, and other such stuff, I could no longer listen to her. Still can't. It just leaves too rotten a stench for me. How can you possibly think that is proper stewardship and anything proper when a large % of her supporters can barely survive. Those are the very people her message appeals to, and she definitely preaches the give to get message. I kind of enjoy her folksy style and relatable take on things, but I just can't tolerate that wealth gathering tv preacher delusion that too many of these folks have fallen prey to, thinking and telling others its God blessing them when it's clearly the people blessing them. As I've said before, the layperson's account gets smaller while they hope for their increase, while the leaders amass wealth through simple mathematics.. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
Marta, I'm not a follower of Joyce Meyer. I've attended one of her conferences, and I know someone who works for her. But I'd rather give her the benefit of the doubt, rather than criticize her based on so-called "evidence" that you've presented here. It sounds more like the ministry of accusation than sound evidence, Marta. Xman3, What do I think of opulence? I think that if you study the Bible and do what it says you can get rich and become opulent. But I believe such opulence demands greater responsibility in giving, etc. However, merely being opulent is no sin. I am sorry that you were offended. Just because someone is supporting her does not mean they are being obedient in other areas, even financially obedient. For instance, xman3, if you give to Joyce Meyer (or TBN or Daystar), and you are NOT tithing to your local church, then you are in disobedience, really, and thus should not expect God to bless their finances. Further, Joyce Meyer really does not preach "give to get." She preaches "give to get to give even more," and that is a biblical message. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 240 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Becoming "opulent" by deceiving others and selling them a spiritual pyramid scheme is a sin. Getting "opulent" off the sacrifices of others, sacrifices that one guilts and manipulates, is a sin. Becoming "opulent" just to satisfy your carnal desires, tearing down storehouses to build bigger ones (i.e. homes, cars, clothes, etc.) is a sin. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
mcmstaff, But Joyce Meyer does not do that. She has not became opulent, nor does not become opulent, by deceiving others and selling them a spiritual pyramid scheme. Nor does she become opulent by the sacrifices of others, or sacrifices that she might guilt and manipulate, etc. Joyce Meyer does none of that stuff. Nor has Joyce Meyer become opulent just to satisfy any carnal desire on her part, etc. So, WHY is she opulent? Joyce Meyer has a popular ministry. She is highly anointed as an author and teacher, and she has the anointing to gather for her conferences. Her conferences are FREE, but they do promote her books and other teaching tapes during her conference, which can be bought. Because her materials are VERY popular, as are her conferences and daily TV show, her ministry does get a profit, and she does have a salary, and she probably also knows how to invest money, or has quality advisors who know how to invest on her behalf. None of this is wrong or a sin. But because of all of this, Joyce Meyer has become opulent. Is that a sin? No, not at all. mcmstaff, you have provided ZERO evidence to substantiate your suggesting that Joyce Meyer has inappropriately become rich. Further, why do you not criticize other TV ministers, like Dr. Charles Stanley, who also is a well-known author and speaker --- and who CHARGES $$$ for his annual cruise(s) where he brings in celebrity guests to entertain (not minister) to his followers. I do not see you complaining and criticizing him for accumulating wealth because of his ministry, etc. --- and he is just as well-respected as Joyce Meyer (just in a different circle). | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.227 |
Well, who are we to question how they spend THEIR own money? Here is something they will have to answer to God. Apostle Paul was the greatest evangelist of his time.What did he do? He built tents to support himself. Why did he not take the money that was given to him as offerings? Shining jewellery, expensive cars and huge mansions do not reflect a true servant of God who is supposed to live a sacrificial life.On the other side, there are many "Suffering Saints" who live by faith to meet their daily needs. Luxury does not reflect a true servant of God.This is something they will have to determine and live a simple life to glorify God.Their luxury is definitely a stumbling block for many who are searching for meaning in life.Whether is is Joyce Meyer or Charles Stanley this principle applies to all of them. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 101 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I used to pray to God to expose these people for what they are .... then I realized that they have already have been exposed. The abuses are so obvious even if there are some not willing to admit it. Look around at all the suffering in the world. If you can store up riches for yourself while your brothers and sisters in Christ go hungry ... you do not have the love of God in you. I'd post some of the many scriptures that show this but I know from experience they will just be ignored. In the end, those who have the love of God in their heart already know the truth ... and those who do not will never accept it. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 179 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
Actually in this thread, someone else provided the evidence that the ministry paid the tab for most of that stuff. I watched Joyce for years before I found out from someone else (certainly not Joyce) about her 10 million dollar compound and the ridiculous trappings. There is absolutely no way I would have given money into that ministry (if I ever would have anyway) knowing that was what the ministry spent it on. Of course, how would the average giver know that? They don't. Marta, you are so right about wasting your time posting scriptures because some people only pick the ones that support their beliefs and ignore the rest. Remember though, that there are a lot of other people that read these posts that don't ever post but are just out checking up on where their money might be going, since Joyce Meyer doesn't tell us. Once I knew, I decided to not watch or support her. I think many others would do the same. Those like jbk who still want to give into this wealthy woman's lifestyle hoping that their part will go to spread the gospel instead of purchasing part of a vase, then let 'em go for it. Someone's got to pay for this stuff or the vase makers would be out of buisness. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Marta, Joyce Meyer Ministries DOES feed starving children in foreign countries, and locally in the United States as well. This is a proven fact. xman3, I don't give to Joyce Meyer. I did give a one-time donation when I went to her conference, because I felt led by the Holy Spirit to do so. But I do not continually support her, and I do not consider myself a "partner" in her ministry. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 181 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
I don't mean you give to Joyce Meyer. What I am saying is that there are plenty of people out there who believe that these things are a blessing from God and a result of her faith and have no problem continuing to support her. They believe they are giving into God's kingdom and will be blessed also. They don't actually consciously think they are contributing to a 10 million dollar compound. They view it as they are taught, that they are giving to God. They at least ought to know though, that the "ministry", whatever that means, provides this stuff. Another comment also. You say that Joyce preaches not a give to get, but a give to give message. OK. Look at all she has to give now. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Joyce Meyer Ministries DOES feed starving children in foreign countries, and locally in the United States as well. This is a proven fact. A lot of ministries show pictures of starving children and claim to give in order to get more donations. But how much is actually done? You want to give this ministry the benefit of the doubt ... but I want them to be accountable. Honest people have nothing to hide. This ministry is like so many other WOF ministries ... they refuse to make a full disclosure as to where the funds are going. Honest people have nothing to hide. Another proven fact is that Joyce Meyer has used her "ministry" to richly reward herself and family members with large salaries and bonuses, million dollar homes with expensive furnishings, expensive vehicles, use of a corporate jet and stays at luxury hotels. So what is more important to Joyce Meyer, helping the poor starving people of the world? spreading the gospel? or enriching herself and her family? If her ministry was more open about how ministry funds are acquired and used, we might know the answer to that question. But for now we each will have to make up our own mind. In my mind, the fact that they are not open about their finances leads me to think there is a problem, because .... Honest people have nothing to hide. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
2 Corinthians 8:16-21 I am thankful to God that he has given Titus the same enthusiasm for you that I have. He welcomed our request that he visit you again. In fact, he himself was eager to go and see you. We are also sending another brother with Titus. He is highly praised in all the churches as a preacher of the Good News. He was appointed by the churches to accompany us as we take the offering to Jerusalem a service that glorifies the Lord and shows our eagerness to help. By traveling together we will guard against any suspicion, for we are anxious that no one should find fault with the way we are handling this generous gift. We are careful to be honorable before the Lord, but we also want everyone else to know we are honorable. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
xman3, Joyce Meyer DOES give. Her ministry gives much money to feed starving children and take care of orphans and all that. I encourage you to look into their world missions program, which provides humanitarian aid. Marta, I think Joyce Meyer has MORE THAN ENOUGH money to do all that --- feed the starving children, preach the gospel, and live the lifestyle that she lives. Please stop judging her. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 243 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
I agree. Charles Stanley is a hypocrite. He apparently emotionally abused his own wife for years. He is divorced and so, scripturally, no longer qualified for "ministry". He spends obscene amounts of money to maintain a TV "ministry". The one thing he does not do, however, is engage in the type of guilt tactics the WoF hucksters do to soak their listeners. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 244 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Oh, and all any of these so-called "ministries" have to do to ally the doubts and criticism is to open their books and demonstrate that they give more to actual ministries that help people then they spend on themselves and engage in further fund-raising (i.e. their TV "ministry"). None them do it because they know exactly what it will show and, consequently, do to their fundraising abilities. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 184 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
I believe Joyce Myer's ministry does give. What are they giving? They are giving money other's give to Joyce Meyer's ministry, not thier own money (though I'm sure they are also personal givers). I don't believe God gives any credit to her for giving a percentage of other people's money that was given to her ministry. If anything, He wonder's why she didn't give more away and keep less. Well, at least I do. Ultimately people must decide based on what they know and believe. I listen to a wide variety of teachers. I like a lot of what Joyce preaches and I think a lot of people relate to her and that her ministry has helped quite a few people. When I learned of her finacial beliefs and practices, I had no desire to watch or listen to her anymore. I definitely wouldn't support her. I don't think anyone will convince you (jbk) that what she is doing is wrong. I don't think anyone will convince me it is right. Others, like myself a few years ago, aren't aware of her lifestyle choices however, and can read and decide for themselves. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I think Joyce Meyer has MORE THAN ENOUGH money to do all that --- feed the starving children, preach the gospel, and live the lifestyle that she lives. Please stop judging her. And I think Joyce Meyer keeps MORE MONEY THAN SHE SHOULD to satisfy her own lust for material possessions. Please stop defending her. mcmstaff78, I agree. This would not be an issue if these ministries would just open their books and show how the money they collect is used. But that is not going to happen. I read that Meyer has setup her ministry as a church even though she does not have an actual congregation. Why? Probably for the same reason Mike Murdock did ... to avoid disclosure laws. It allows them to better hide how the money is used. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 158 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.150 |
mcmstaff, I agree with you on something. Once you divorce your wife, you are no longer qualified for public ministry, e.g. Dr. Charles Stanley, and now Bishop Randy and Paula White. xman3, Once someone give to Joyce Meyer Ministries, it becomes THEIR money --- and they give it freely to others who are in need. I do not see anything wrong with that. I think God DOES give them credit for the wise stewardship of the money that people donate to their ministry, for the spread of the gospel, taking care of the poor, etc. etc. etc. I do believe God sees what they do and rewards their faithfulness at JMM. Marta, Do you have evidence to substantiate your accusations of that stuff? | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Mike Murdock and Joyce Meyer have a lot in common. Both ministries have been exposed by local newspapers. The articles are eye opening for anyone who wants to see the truth ... but for those blinded by their lust for material things .. there will never be enough evidence. From Ministry Watch profile .... "JMM is legally structured as a church, but cannot be considered a traditional congregational church as its congregation is reached only via the media." http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/F_SumRpt.asp?EIN=431382734 From Forth Worth Star-Telegram article (Dec. 15, 2004 ) "Televangelist Mike Murdock moves financial books behind closed doors" "This summer, Murdock began converting the Mike Murdock Evangelistic Association into a church in North Texas known as The Wisdom Center. As a church, its spending is secret under laws meant to keep government and religion separate." | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 160 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Marta, Well, JMMM does have a church. Its called the St. Louis Dream Center Church, and it is owned and operated by JMM. It has massive outreaches to the poor in the inner-city of St. Louis. You said, "And I think Joyce Meyer keeps MORE MONEY THAN SHE SHOULD to satisfy her own lust for material possessions." Do you have any evidence to substantiate that comment??? Lastly, do you believe everything you read in a newspaper to be reported in a true and accurate manner??? | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
jbkrems, I posted my opinion that I think that Joyce Meyer keeps more money than she should ... my opinion is based on her lifestyle. I believe what is written in the newspaper when it is supported by evidence. Do you have evidence that the information in these news articles is not true or accurate? | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 107 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
In my opinion, there is more than enough evidence available for me to question how the money received by these ministries is being used. Questions have been raised and it shouldn't be a problem for these ministries to answer those questions honestly and openly. To get all indignant and tell people that they should just give these people the benefit of the doubt is foolishness ... and it is not supported by scripture. 2 Corinthians 8:16-21 I am thankful to God that he has given Titus the same enthusiasm for you that I have. He welcomed our request that he visit you again. In fact, he himself was eager to go and see you. We are also sending another brother with Titus. He is highly praised in all the churches as a preacher of the Good News. He was appointed by the churches to accompany us as we take the offering to Jerusalem a service that glorifies the Lord and shows our eagerness to help. By traveling together we will guard against any suspicion, for we are anxious that no one should find fault with the way we are handling this generous gift. We are careful to be honorable before the Lord, but we also want everyone else to know we are honorable. It's time for these ministries to do whatever it takes to prove to everyone that they are indeed honorable. If the money is being used appropriately, then there is nothing to hide. By opening the books they will remove any suspicion and show themselves to be honorable. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 162 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Marta, Well, at least you have the sense to clarify your statement as your opinion. The point is you are presenting your opinion as a matter of fact, which reeks of judgmentalism. I don't think the newspaper reports that you believe are true and accurate are well-founded. I think they are written in a bias manner, and they cannot be trusted as reliable information, on which to base one's opinion. If you do not give to JMM yourself, then why do you feel the need to question JMM's stewardship of donations? I'm not indignant, but I do believe in giving these people the benefit of the doubt. To me, either you give and trust JMM to be a good steward of your donation, OR you do not give and therefore it is something that SHOULD NOT CONCERN YOU. I am concerned, however, with your statement, "Its time for these ministries to do whatever it takes to prove to everyone that they are indeed honorable." Marta, whatever became of the concept of innocent until proven guilty??? Why must a ministry that is well-established, e.g. JMM, "prove to everyone" that it is "honorable." And how would you judge??? And WHO MADE YOU JUDGE - ??? | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
We are instructed to use discernment. That involves judging. When you throw out the "who are you to judge" stuff, you show your ignorance about what scripture really says. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees. Paul rebuked false teachers. Scripture warns us to watch out for false teachers and for wolves in sheep's clothing. How can we do this if we don't use discernment to judge what is good and what is evil? I have come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence that I have. The evidence you want is not available because the ministry won't release it. Why the secrecy if they are doing nothing wrong? They bring judgment on themselves when they hide what they are doing. Why not open the books and show everyone that they are doing nothing wrong? Honest people have nothing to hide ... thieves love to hide under the cover of darkness. If you were going to invest in a business and they refused to show you the books ... would you "give them the benefit of the doubt" and invest your money anyway? If your answer is yes then you are either a liar or a fool. Who made me judge? What does scripture say? 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people. It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you." 1 Peter 2:12 Be careful how you live among your unbelieving neighbors. Even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will believe and give honor to God when he comes to judge the world. Romans 12:17 ....Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable. 2 Corinthians 8:21 We are careful to be honorable before the Lord, but we also want everyone else to know we are honorable. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.160 |
Marta, There is a difference between discerning and being judgmental. One is a godly function, and the other is a bad attitude, to put it mildly. Jesus said, "Judge not lest ye be judged." The point is that you come across as arrogant and condescending, and thus your "discernment" has turned itself into judgmentalism. Of course you do not see that because it is a "blind spot," but I think you should be open to that. You are right that Jesus and Paul warned about false teachers and so forth. But the biblical definition of a "false teacher" is one who does NOT point to and glorify Jesus as Lord and Savior. In other words, the focus of their message is not one of repentance and the Kingdom of God and the Lordship and Saviorship of Jesus, but rather is focused on something else. Clear examples of "false teachers" are Mormons and JWs. But Joyce Meyer is not false in this respect. And yes, we should discern falsity of teachers as it relates to the standard I just provided. However, you desire to apply a different standard --- and judge the MOTIVES. Well, that's not discernment. Judging the motives of others is called SUSPICION, and that Marta, is a SIN --- to be suspicious of motives. | ||
| jeff_franklin Intermediate Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 494 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
jb, you are on the wrong path. You are putting human beings in an exalted place between you and God. Don't you see THAT is a sin? | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
jbkrems, if you really believed that you wouldn't be judging me. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 110 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
The Cult of Do Not Judge http://www.letusreason.org/Pent44.htm Revelation 2:2 I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don't tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 165 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.160 |
Jeff, What makes you think I am doing that? Marta, I'm not judging you. I am merely discerning. | ||
| jeff_franklin Intermediate Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 498 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
Because you set your false idols beyond reproach up above everyone else. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 166 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Jeff, Who are my false idols? I do not idolize Joyce Meyer. What makes you think I have false idols? | ||
| jeff_franklin Intermediate Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 499 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
By saying we are not allowed to judge them, their fruit, their works, their lifestyle, you are idolizing them. Elevating them to a position above us common folk. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I'm not judging you. I am merely discerning. And as I stated before, judgment IS part of discernment. So I guess you believe it's OK to judge me ... just not OK to judge ministers. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? You said, "The point is that you come across as arrogant and condescending, and thus your "discernment" has turned itself into judgmentalism." So you are judging me according to your own opinions. Do you think this is fair? Do you ever actually read the posts before you respond? The fact has been brought up several times that this discussion would be over if these ministries would just be open about how they handle the money they take in. I have already shown several scriptures verses that support my belief that ministries should be willing to do whatever it takes to show everyone that they are behaving in an honorable way. Why is this so disagreeable for you? Do you give a lot of money to these ministries that you defend? I'm guessing no. I don't think it's really that important to you how they collect their money, or how they spend it ... because it's not really your money we're talking about. So, why do you work so hard to defend these people? I think I have shown that your belief that we are NOT JUDGE them at all is not scriptural. In fact, Jesus encouraged people to judge. But we are to use discernment when we judge. Jesus said, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” In other words, do not judge by our own opinions, but instead judge by the word of God. That is what it means to judge righteously. So if you are going to continue judging me ... use scripture to back it up. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 168 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Jeff, I'm sorry, but you've misunderstood what I've said, and you've misinterpreted what I've said. I do believe we are to judge their fruit and their doctrine. I don't believe we are to judge their lifestyle or them, personally. Judging fruit and doctrine is basic discernment. Judging someone as a person as it pertains to their lifestyle is being judgmental, and is a sign of our own pride. I am in no way idolizing Joyce Meyer. To idolize her would be to look up to her and say, "She's perfect, and I want to model my life after her." Nowhere have I said I do that kind of thing, and I really do not do that to anyone. I think you have a faulty understanding of what it really means to idolize Jeff, and I do not agree with it. Marta, Please read my above comments to Jeff, which explains the difference between discernment and judgmentalism. I've never judged you Marta. I do discern the validity of what you say here. If you take that personally, then you have no right to "judge," in your own words, Joyce Meyer, or anyone else. I don't think its my opinion that you come across as arrogant and condescending. The Bible commands us to speak the truth in love, and to follow after mercy. Whether someone does this is a judgment of fruit, not a personal judgment. You are not speaking the truth in love here, and you are not following after mercy. Instead you are being arrogant and condescending, thinking anyone who disagrees with you is off. That is prideful and wrong. I do read your posts. I disagree with your tone. You present your own opinion as fact, and an example of that is this sentence: "The fact has been brought up several times that this discussion would be over if these ministries would just be open about how they handle the money they take in." That's not a fact. That is your opinion. It is prideful and arrogant of you to present your own opinion as a fact. No, I don't give money to these ministries. I take it you do not either. Therefore, I believe that how these ministries use donations that are not mine --- are none of my business --- or yours. Marta, I don't believe we are to judge their finances or lifestyle. I do believe we are to judge their fruit and doctrine. Big difference. And I am NOT judging you, Marta. I am judging your words here, discerning them, seeing whether or not they agree with the Scriptures, and they do not. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 112 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I've never judged you Marta. That's a lie. You HAVE judged me. You continue to judge me. But I don't care. I already said it's OK if you want to judge me. So that's not really the issue ... is it? Instead of addressing the issues at hand you deflect by judging me and my motives and then saying that you never judged me. You're wasting time ... go back to the real issues. I have shown scripture that I believe supports my belief that ministers should do all things in an open and honest way. I can probably pull up a few more if you like. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Christians should be open and honest in all their dealings. We are not supposed to act like the rest of the world, after all. Joyce Meyer's ministry (like most wof ministries) does not fully disclose how the money they collect is used. Those who run the ministry clearly live in a way that brings into question if the money is being mishandled. I believe it is scriptural to expect the people running the ministry to show that the money they collect is not being mishandled. Can you show scripture that supports your belief that they have a right to keep this information hidden? You say this is none of my business. I have shown scripture that says we are to discern ... JUDGE ... that which is going on in the church. Can you show me scripture that supports your belief that we are supposed to mind our own business and just allow what appears to be sinful behavior continue in the church? Can you show me where we are to just allow evil to continue in the church unfettered? But maybe I'm wasting my breath ... you seem more interested in your personal attack on me than in actually discussing the subject of this thread. If you want to discuss the subject of the thread, show some scripture to support your beliefs. If you want to continue attacking me because I don't agree with your gospel of greed, I won't be responding. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
And I am NOT judging you, Marta. I am judging your words here, discerning them, seeing whether or not they agree with the Scriptures, and they do not. Funny how you can do that without actually giving even one scripture reference. | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 188 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.237.125.180 |
Judging is condemning. Discerning is to identify the good from the bad: Right from wrong.Judgement belongs only to God. We are to discern the right from the wrong as well as good from evil. Our duty is also to love those who do wrong things as well as those who are evil.G9od is the only Judge. However, JBKREMS sometimes takes over God. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 114 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
The word judge (Greek-krino) is used over 80 times in the New Testament and it means to call in question, discern, conclude, decree, and determine. The meaning does not mean to condemn in judgment; the context shows we are responsible to correctly evaluate a thing or an act. But for the most part, I agree with you inkorrekt. It's not our place to determine the eternal destiny of someone. But we are to discern right from wrong. And I believe that scripture supports my belief that it's wrong for ministries like JMM to not fully disclose the money they receive and how it's spent. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Marta, It is not my intent to judge you. You may interpret what I say as being judgmental towards you, but it really isn't. If you believe that you have a right to judge and discern what Joyce Meyer says and does, then I have a right to judge and discern what you say here in this forum. Otherwise, you are holding out a double standard, which is a sign of real pride on your part. That's wrong, Marta. I think there is such a thing as being too open and honest. I've always been taught, for example, that asking someone their salary is really a rude question, and none of your business. The same is true with ministers... it is wrong to inquire of their finances, etc. No where in the Scriptures is there a command, or even exhortation to pastors and teachers that they are to open their financial statements to their respective congregations, or anything like that. I believe one can be open and honest without disclosing that kind of sensitive information. Now --- you made this comment: "Those who run the ministry clearly live in a way that brings into question if the money is being mishandled." Oh really? Why do you feel it is right to question the motives of JMM in this way? I do not think you have a biblical perogative to do so, esp. if you do not give yourself to JMM. Marta, if you truly were a partner of JMM, and you actually contributed to JMM yourself, then YES, I do believe you would have some point here. At least you would have standing to ask them to open their books because after all, you contribute and are a partner of their ministry. However, you do not contribute yourself, and yes, its none of your business. Second, Marta, I do not think that the lifestyle displayed by Joyce Meyer, et al, is "sinful." I would like Scripture proof from you that it is. Third, Marta, I would like you to provide Bible proof that what Joyce Meyer does is "evil unfettered," please. Inkorrekt: I agree with you, except NO, I do not take over for God. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 115 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
If you believe that you have a right to judge and discern what Joyce Meyer says and does, then I have a right to judge and discern what you say here in this forum. Otherwise, you are holding out a double standard, which is a sign of real pride on your part. That's wrong, Marta. You're right. THAT WAS MY POINT! You say we are not to judge but YOU JUDGE ME! The pride is not with me .. it's with YOU! I have said several times that I don't care if you judge me. Go back and read my posts. YOU are the one with the double standard. Admit this and I might continue this discussion with you. Keep denying it and we're done. You're wasting my time with your dishonest banter. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 248 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Marta, Some people make words mean whatever they want. They can see the splinter in another's eye but not the log in their own. They are full of presumptuousness and pride and even the failures of their presumptuousness does not teach them humility. People like this are impossible to discourse with because they are convinced of nothing so much as their own rightness and righteousness. Only the hand of God can move them. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 188 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
I do believe we are to judge their fruit and their doctrine. I don't believe we are to judge their lifestyle or them, personally. Judging fruit and doctrine is basic discernment. Judging someone as a person as it pertains to their lifestyle is being judgmental, and is a sign of our own pride. Please provide scripture for this opinion. Lifestyle definitely qualifies as a fruit anyway. Imagine pastor Rick suddenly having a huge "revival" on his hands. Thousands added to the church and millions of dollars comin in. He then build himself a 10,000,000.00 (count those zeros) house and compound replete with expensive doo dads that cost more than many in the church make in a year. It sounds preposterous after hearing you talk of him that he would do that. That's cause it is peposterous. Marta, I am laughing with you. He did a great job making YOUR point. I'm glad you appreciated that as much as I did. I'm not laughing at you jbk, but though I like the way you defend some of these ministers, in the financial area I have to disagree with you and you're not making much of a case here. Re-read that initial post. That stuff (and much more not in there) is just so obviously not right. You can accept these bits of fact and still like them and even support them if you want (as I do with some like Copeland for instance), but to go out of your way to defend and explain it in the face of the evidence you must keep missing in these posts does seem a bit idolatrous to me. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Marta, I'm not being prideful. But I think you are. And, I'm really not judging you --- I am judging your words, which do not line up with Scriptures. Xman3, There are Scriptures that discuss the concept of discernment in terms of good and evil. We are also taught to judge ministers by their fruits, "Ye shall know them by their fruits," and so forth. I believe this has to do with two things: #1 their character (whether they exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (see Gal. 5 for that test), and #2 their doctrine (whether what they teach lines up with God's Word). I believe that Joyce Meyer meets both of these simple tests, and therefore there is no cause as to complain. As regards to lifestyle, xman3, I do not think that just because one lives in "luxury" that they automatically have bad fruit. I would rather look at their motives. Has God blessed the person with nice things? If so, then we have no cause to complain. If they are hoarding for show, then that's different. I believe that Joyce Meyer is a faithful servant, and therefore because she has obeyed the Word of God, that God has honored her and blessed her abundantly, even with nice things, i.e. nice cars and houses, etc. As regards to your example about my own pastor, he already lives in an $800,000 house, which is expensive for Edmond, Oklahoma. If you translate that figure to a similarly-situated house on the East Coast, the price figure would easily exceed $1 million. But, if we did have a real "revival" where thousands were added to our church (this probably will happen in the future, for it has been prophecied), and millions of dollars would come in (again, it has been prophecied), THEN I do not think Pastor Rickey, in real life, seriously, would want to build himself a home. He actually has other desires with all that money, and we do believe in good stewardship at my church. We would probably actually first pay off our existing mortgage(s) on his current house and our current church building, and then we'd be looking to buy a new building to house the 1000s of new attendees. Lastly, what if Pastor Rickey did build a new compound, hypothetically, on which he could build a $10 million property? Well --- I do not see how that would be wrong, if God was leading him to do that --- after all, expensive homes and expensive cars are just tools for the ministries --- just like airplanes and so forth. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 191 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
I don't believe God led Joyce Meyer to buy a 23,000.00 toilet, amongst other things, and I don't think God would your pastor to do so either. He might claim God led him to, but I discern he would be wrong, just like Joyce is. I think an 800,000 home is extravagant for a pastor in some situations, and not in others. It does help me understand that you are in a church that believes the pastor ought to live better than the rest of the people though since you claim it is one of the more expensive homes. I'm also glad to know you would be ok with him doing just as Joyce has done, soley on the basis of him/her believing "God led them to do it". They need people who believe like that to support their lifestyles or else they might have to live like the of the rest of us. Luxury is not bad fruit. Excessive luxury in a minister who raises money through preaching the tithe, giving to be blessed, giving your way out of trouble, and even more so, giving to be able to give more while storing up significant wealth and comfort for themselves at the expense of the working man is very bad fruit. Your definition of what discernment is to be used for and not used is once agin, something that soundsd good to some, but has no basis. It's merely your opinion, and it is silly. To think that fruit, as we use it, is limited to what we call the fruits of the Spirit will get you in trouble. If you must use that, however, then follow each fruit to it's conclusion, and you will see that this stuff actually violates several of the fruits of the Spirit, most notably faithfulness and self control. Your opinion says that Joyce hasn't done so and she shows good fruit because her doctrine is good (which may or may not be the case, but another discussion) and her character is good. I think that her character is definitely called into question by the evidence presented here. In the long run, Joyce and her followers will be the ones who pay the price. It irks me when these people think the gospel is the road to riches, and then live out that dream, but there is little I can do about it. I post, I rant a little, and throw out my thoughts and opinions, but ultimately since Joyce doesn't answer to me its all a bunch of fluff anyway. She means well and as I said helps a lot of people possibly, and perhaps does see people saved. That is good and if that's what God has called her to do, then good for her. Just because good is being done, doesn't mean we overlook sin. I don't know how God balances the sin and the good in these ministries. Where He draws the line, or if He does is a mystery to me. I drew the line at the millions of dollars that in my opinion, were selfishly and foolishly spent on a bunch of stuff that makes her and her families and ministries lives much better, but does little if anything to spread the gospel. About all it does is inspire those gullible folks who believe that by giving into these ministries, they too can see the fruit of their faith and giving by also getting the great wealth that their example and teacher has garnered through their own faithfulness. Hogwash. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Marta, I am laughing with you. He did a great job making YOUR point. Not good enough I guess ... he still doesn't get it. Just like the gullible folk that support these ministries ... looking forever to the horizon for that 100 fold return. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 173 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Xman3, I find it hard to believe that one can buy a toilet for $23,000. Something smells fishy in the Jefferson County's Assessor's Office, if that figure is accurate. I would really like someone here (perhaps TRS who started the thread) to post the actual paperwork from Jefferson County. I'd really like proof there. Quite frankly, we have a member of our congregation who lived in a nice home (valued more than $800,000) well before our pastor received his home. She owns multiple homes, and multiple businesses as well. We do NOT believe, to be clear, "the pastor ought to live better than the rest of the people." We also do NOT believe that the pastor should live on the same level as the rest of the people. We also do NOT believe that the pastor should live on a level less than the rest of the people. The point here is that the pastor should live on whatever level God has called him to live, even if it is a step higher than most of the other congregants. The Scriptures teach that pastors should receive "double honor." Also, keep in mind that because my pastor's house does have multiple bedrooms, we are able to engage in some hospitality you won't find in other churches. We are able to house multiple ministers at the same time for conferences and what not, and have special meetings in a smaller setting there as well. In fact, there is a meeting room downstairs that serves the venue for many smaller church functions. So it is more than just a house. It is a ministry center. Actually, I would say that "Excessive luxury in a minister who raises money through preaching the tithe, giving to be blessed, giving your way out of trouble, and even more so, giving to be able to give more while storing up significant wealth and comfort for themselves," is GOOD FRUIT. I believe there is NOTHING wrong with any of those teachings. The Scriptures teach we are to tithe. The Scriptures teach that if we give, we shall be blessed. The Scriptures teach that giving can release us from financial troubles, e,g, debt. The Scriptures teach that we should give so that we receive even more that we can give out of. Giving to give even more is NOT a bad message. All of these teachings are biblical, so there is NO BAD FRUIT, only GOOD FRUIT based on these teachings. As regards to the fruit test, let me clarify a few things. First, its not just fruit of the Spirit in Gal. 5. That is the beginning of the inquiry. Fruit means character --- whether the person is exhibiting godly character. This is MORE THAN the fruit of the Spirit, and while it DOES include handling of finances, it does NOT include prying into the books to see how finances are spent, etc. (e.g. specific salaries, expenditures, etc.) I believe Joyce Meyer has been VERY faithful and exhibits self-control. I believe God has blessed her with abundance financially because God has given this to her as a reward for her faithfulness. I believe that her home is a tool for the ministry --- that enables her to help better minister to other people. I applaud her for being faithful --- it is rather hard to find a faithful person in the 21st century, even in the Body of Christ. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 251 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
See, nothing matters except what some people find "hard to believe" or not "hard to believe". The facts don't matter, only a person's perception and acceptance of them. This is what Jesus meant when He said "even if one came back from the dead they would not believe". They reject the law and the prophets by interpreting them through the lens of hypocrisy, greed and presumptuousness. Consequently, their hearts are hardened to the Truth of God and they exchange the truth for a lie; they turn the Gospel upside down. No argument can convince them because they are convinced of their rightness. No experience can sway them because if it doesn't fit the preconception it is simply an "attack of the devil". They reject divine Providence and elevate their wills above all else. Yet when they learn they cannot move the world with their will alone, they blame all others. This is God's judgment (see Romans 1) - all we can do is pray it ultimately leads to repentance. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 193 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
I won't venture an opinion of your pastor's home. I'll take your word that it is appropriate for your churches' situation. Fruit and prying into the books are 2 seperate issues. The underlying idea that one would open their books if they had nothing to hide seems logical to me. It baffles me why ministries wouldn't do so, except that they are afraid of being taken to task or exposed. Spin it any way you want. Makes no matter to me, because the stuff I refer to is public knowleged and record. I am not commenting on the accuracy of the money teaching itself. I pretty much believe that there is scripture to support each of the things we have discussed in regards to giving. Specifically, I am commenting on your contention Joyce preaches give to get more so you can give more. This sounds good, and is, in my opinion, a good solid principle when it is lived out, should that increase actually come, as it does to the preacher. I feel JM's choices are most definitely controversial enough to be exposed and discussed by others in lieu of her own choice to disclose things. Sometimes its frustrating discussing these things with you, but I still think it is good that you defend some of these people, because it keeps the discussion at the forefront and it is better to hear "both" sides. I'm sure they appreciate supporters like yourself, though they'll never have opportunity to tell you that. I think you support them because you believe in principle we ought to support one another, and that that principle overrides any sound judgement you might make in regards to their shortcommings. That's my opinion again, but it isn't all that bad because I think if any of us (and someone is) are in error, it would indeed, be better to err on the side of mercy and grace, and it does semm to me that that is your intention. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 177 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
mcmstaff: I do not believe everything I read on the web, or in newspapers. I think there is enough bias around to taint a lot of articles. That's why I'd like to see first-hand evidence, rather than second-hand and third-hand stuff as TRS originally presented. As regards to opening the books "if they have nothing to hide" is a classic trick that assumes someone is guilty, unless they approve they are innocent. The police say the same thing to a suspect they think has committed a wrong, and therefore ask the suspect to take a test (e.g. blood test, DNA test, lie detector test, etc.) to prove their innocence. This is, by analogy, a trick of the chief of accusers, the devil. In the Kingdom of God, one is truly innocent unless proven guilty (non-repentance, we will know on Judgment Day, etc.) This is why we must pursue grace and mercy, and expect the best of people, and give people the benefit of the doubt. People are truly innocent until "proven" guilty, and asking someone to open the books "if they have nothing to hide" flies in the face of grace and mercy, expecting the best of people, and giving people the benefit of the doubt. It is just a trick of the chief accuser, the devil, to ensnare people, etc. That's why police use it against suspects, and so forth, in the natural. Make sense? I disagree that JM's choices are controversial enough to be exposed and discussed by others in lieu of her own choice to disclose things. Xman3, I lived in St. Louis growing up. My first real church was in St. Louis, and I consider the pastors of that church as "spiritual parents." I've been exposed before to the accusations and controversy surrounding Joyce Meyer. This whole discussion that we're having is nothing new. I just think it is a tool of the enemy --- to point the finger, so to speak, to cast blame, and to undermine God's choice ministers in this day and hour, e.g. Joyce Meyer. I do not support these tactics, and really --- it is these kinds of tactics that must be exposed, not the finances of Joyce Meyer. Lastly, you hit the nail on the head. I believe in supporting (not necessarily financially) JM because I believe in principle we ought to support one another, and champion one another, and that this principle overrides any judgment as to one's shortcomings. Amen. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 117 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Isaiah 56:9-12 Come, wild animals of the field! Come, wild animals of the forest! Come and devour my people! For the leaders of my people the LORD's watchmen, his shepherds are blind to every danger. They are like silent watchdogs that give no warning when danger comes. They love to lie around, sleeping and dreaming. And they are as greedy as dogs, never satisfied. They are stupid shepherds, all following their own path, all of them intent on personal gain. "Come," they say. "We will get some wine and have a party. Let's all get drunk. Let this go on and on, and tomorrow will be even better."  | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 254 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Jonathan, you use a classic lawyer's trick of a false analogy. A "ministry" that receives funds from gifts from the public should be transparently open to those who contribute. That has nothing to do about assuming "guilt", but about being above board, open and honest with those who support you. The fact is, not only do these so-called ministries provide financial statements publicly, they don't provide them to their contributors. They are phonies, hypocrites, and blind leaders of the blind who are in "ministry" for filthy lucre, nothing more, nothing less. You can justify this type of deceptive practice all you like, but no one buys into it EXCEPT those who have been deluded by the same upside down "gospel" these people preach. These are nothing more than wolves devouring the "sheep" and do not deserve the support of any TRUE Christian. | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 189 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.218.130.178 |
MARTA: Remember, JBKREMS is a LAWYER!!!!!!!!!!!It is his job to twist, misinterpret and whatever to prove his point. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 255 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
This sentence should actually read: The fact is, not only do these so-called ministries NOT provide financial statements publicly, they don't provide them to their contributors." | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
JBKREMS is a LAWYER!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for clearing that up ... I just thought he was being worldly. A "ministry" that receives funds from gifts from the public should be transparently open to those who contribute. That has nothing to do about assuming "guilt", but about being above board, open and honest with those who support you. I think they call that "operating with integrity". | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 256 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Marta, while JBK has a law degree and has reportedly passed the OK Bar exam, my understanding is he is not working as a lawyer. So when is one actually a "lawyer"? A horse thief is someone who steals horses, not simply trained to do so, no? And you are absolutely correct, that would be "operating with integrity" but with some people one has to spell such things out. It simply reinforces my conviction that these folks' view of reality is upside down. Makes communication pretty difficult - you know, like Bizzaro world?!! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 179 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
mcmstaff: I think JMM is very open, just not as open as you would like them to be. I do not think it is right for a ministry to disclose salaries or any information like that. It is inappropriate to disclose salary, period, for ministers and pastors, or anyone else for that matter. Its rude to inquire, etc. | ||
| jeff_franklin Advanced Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 548 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
I disagree. A minister's salary, perks, what have you, should be public knowledge. If a minister does not want it that way then they're in the wrong business. jbk: do you believe that Joyce Meyer has special divine revelations from God that God gives her only to tell the world about? | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 180 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Jeff Franklin: Do you think that Donald Trump or Bill Gates or other well-known CEOs should disclose their salary, perks, etc. as well - ??? Jeff, what do you mean by "special divine revelations" - ??? | ||
| jeff_franklin Advanced Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 550 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
You said C.E.O.'s which means heads of corporations. I believe that according to law that all corporate finances such as salaries come under public scrutiny certainly scrutiny of the stock holders. So yes, they already do that. Special divine revelations: Given to her and her alone by God to reveal to the world that which was before unknown but to God. Like the Copeland lie she parrots. That when Christ died on the cross he lost his Deity and went to hell for three days. So since none of that is biblical do you believe that God revealed that to Copeland and Meyer? I believe what is ethically fair is that any Christian minister should make no more than $50,000 a year including perks like houses, cars, yachts, aerioplanes..... All else in a ministry's coffers should go to charity to feed, clothe and shelter the poor. If that is not enough for someone to live the lifestyle they prefer then they should not consider Christian ministry as a career. What does the Old Testament tell us about the way Hebrew priests were paid and how much? | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 181 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Jeff: Well, not if its a privately-held company. Such disclosures are only made for public companies. Perhaps Trump and Gates were a bad example in that regard. The point is this: If you consider a church to be similar to a privately held company (my church does NOT have 200-300 people, it has 125-150), then its finances should not be public, just like the finances of a private company are not public, either. As regards to "special divine revelations," thank you for your definition. The answer is NO, I do believe God speaks to Joyce Meyer and gives her revelation for her to share to the world. However, I do NOT believe this revelation is hers alone, and that it was "before unknown but to God alone." Nothing is new under the sun. I believe the same revelation is being given to many Christians, and Joyce Meyer is just one of them. Many of the same things she teaches are taught in my church, by my pastor. And in other churches by other pastors. As to Copeland, he does NOT teach that when Christ died on the cross that He lost His Deity. Jesus did go to hell for 3 days to beat the devil. But Christ did not lose His Deity. And as regards to Joyce teaching that, I've never heard her speak what Copeland has spoken. If you are going to stand by this, then please provide a quote and attribution of Joyce Meyer making this kind of statement. Why is $50,000 an ethically fair limit --- ??? To me that seems like an arbitrary figure. Many other professions make twice as much, such as attorneys and doctors. In some locations, $50,000 may be considered a moderate salary. In other locations (larger cities) it does not go a long way (i.e. where cost of living is higher). What is your reasoning behind this Jeff - ??? And why are you bringing up the OT, Jeff? The New Testament clearly teaches that pastors and ministers are to receive "double honor," which means they should be paid more than they were under the OT. | ||
| jeff_franklin Advanced Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 551 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
A minister's salary should be known in full by the congregation as part of the church's finances as are therefore "public". Copeland: "Jesus went into hell to free mankind. … When His blood poured out it did not atone." (Kenneth Copeland, quoted in McConnell, Different Gospel, 120). "When [Jesus] said 'it is finished,' on that cross, He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun. There was still three days and three nights to go through. ... [in hell], He suffered punishment for three horrible days and nights . . . "He's [Jesus] separated from His God and in that moment He's a mortal man: capable of failure, capable of death"" (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, cassette tape). "Jesus died as our substitute. He who knew no sin was made to be sin. He took upon Himself our sin nature. And He died - He was separated and cut off from God. He went down into the prison house of suffering in our place. He was there three days and nights . . ."Not only was He physically resurrected - His body resurrected - but His spirit was made alive unto God again. He had died spiritually. He took upon Himself spiritual death - for us. And He is the first one who was ever born again. His new birth is our new birth" (Kenneth Hagin, Made Alive, April 1982, p. 3). "He suffered in his own body, and more important, in His spirit. Jesus experienced the same spiritual death that entered man in the Garden of Eden [i.e., He took on Satan's nature]. ... After Jesus was made sin, He had to be born again. http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page7.html Unbiblical Heresy! Meyer: The cross wasn't enough, Jesus redeemed us in hell "And you've got to really glean some things out of the Word of God to really get hold of what He [Jesus] did for you during those three days. Jesus said, 'It is finished.' And He meant the Old Covenant. The job He had to do was just getting started. He really did the job the three days and nights that He was in hell. That's where the job was done." Joyce Meyer (What Happened from the Cross to The Throne? audio) "He was pronounced guilty on the cross but He paid the price in hell." Joyce Meyer (What Happened from the Cross to The Throne? audio) "There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell" Joyce Meyer ("The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make", 1991 pg. 3) http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?action=aquote&id=14 That is unbiblical heresy! So what annual amount would you suggest would be ethical for a minister to receive? The sky's the limit? Please quote book, chapter and verse what you call "double honor" what a pastor should be paid. | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.93.29.80 |
Not really interested in the discussion but just to add a point. She used to teach Jesus died spiritually (went to hell etc) but gave it up and now claims she never did. I think she just isn't well versed in theology and didn't know any better than to teach that. Also about JDS it is a heresy of the first order and is not taught in any seminary anywhere in the world but anyone except they have some connection with Copeland et al. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 119 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I think she just isn't well versed in theology and didn't know any better than to teach that. Meyer states on her website that she earned a PhD in theology at Life Christian University in Tampa. But I think a lot of the PhD's given out by this university are based on "life experience" not actual study. | ||
| cybermom New member Username: cybermom Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
marta Is that where Rob(b) Thompson got his "degree" Or is it different diploma mill? There is an fhc thread that contains the name of at least one of these places where basically all you have to do is apply, and of course pay, and you get a "doctorate". Not really worth the paper it's printed on, tho. in the REAL world. If I had truly earned a PhD, I'd be insulted. And angry. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 258 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Jonathan, you've again made the case for your opposition. Publicly held companies, i.e. companies that have open, public investments, are subject to making regular financial reports, including the salaries of the CEOs. Government employees are also subject to open records and their compensation can be known by the public. If someone wants to fund a "ministry" from his or her own personal fortune, be as private as you like. But these ministries are just like publicly held companies, they go to the public for funding. Additionally, they derive great tax benefits from the public due to their presumed "charitable" status. While I hesitate to have any more Government involvement in any area of our lives, these charlatan ministries have made a mockery of the charitable tax donations and created "ministries" to enrich themselves. I believe they should be required to provide regular financial proof that they are not simply a private foundation. It's not "rude", it's called being "wise as a serpent", which the Lord commanded His followers to be. Allowing unscrupulous people to bilk you out of money and disavowing any responsibility of your poor stewardship of God's gifts to you by saying "well, I gave it to the Lord" is not only foolish, it is irresponsible and denigrating of the gifts God has given us, including our intelligence and free will. It is no more convincing then the Nazi SS guards' claims of "only following orders". Additionally, I thank you for once again demonstrating the upside down and bizzaro nature of your world. No one who has not be indoctrinate by WoF or similar brainwashing could possibly understand and use words the way you have done. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 259 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Regarding "degrees" from Life Christian University: A number of well known WoF charlatans are then listed. If these people despise the world so much, why is it so important they have "doctor" in front of their names? Another sign of the presumptuous nature and hubris of this "theology" and its followers and purveyors. They are less "doctors" then the phonies being arrested for practicing dentistry and medicine without a license. One certainly does not need a degree to follow God, but if one claims to have a degree, it should be a real one. I'm sure everyone has heard the old saw regarding degrees: BS = bullshit MS = more of the same PhD = piled higher and deeper In the case of these hucksters with "degrees" from LCU, it could not be more true!! | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Is that where Rob(b) Thompson got his "degree" Could be, as mcmstaff78 posted, quite a few WOFers "earned" their PhDs there. From the St Petersburg Times "A school in business of making ministers" http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/20/Pasco/A_school_in_business_.shtml For Meyer and Hinn, their work in the pulpit coupled with their published works helped earn them a degree. And it wasn't honorary, Wingate is quick to point out. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
They are less "doctors" then the phonies being arrested for practicing dentistry and medicine without a license. Scary thought .... if medical schools gave out degrees using the same criteria as Life Christian University.  | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 193 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 74.92.215.34 |
Paper degrees do not matter any more as they can be bought with money. Three are reputed seminaries which provide basic understanding of the scriptures and biblical interpretation. For anyone to preach, basic knowledge of the Bible is essential. Most of these TV ministers are self taught. Therefore, they interpret as they fit. As far as personal revelation is concerned, God gives it to all of us. Joyce Meyer is not the onoy chosen one. Last week, while prayer, my brother came in my thoughts. I prayed and I was disturbed. I called him and I found out that something unexpected happened to him. I had to comfort him. So, God revealed what happened to him. If Joyce Meyer claims to have special revelation and because of this, she should receive donations, that is like the Catholic church which Sold certificates of pardon for sins. It is time for these people to self examine in the light of the Apostle's work and begin to live asimple life of sacrifice. Then, their work will go leaps and bounds everywhere. TV is an excellent tool. But, this is being abused like Hollywood by these charlatans and HolyRollers. Their lifestyles are certainly the stumbling blocks for many. Meyers, Copelands and Hinns are blocking the doorway of salvation for many. Only thing that we can all do is to pray for these people so that they will all come under conviction and live alife of dedication and sacrifice. This may never happen as they will never like to give up their luxurious lifestyles. | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 74.92.215.34 |
Paper degrees do not matter any more as they can be bought with money. Three are reputed seminaries which provide basic understanding of the scriptures and biblical interpretation. For anyone to preach, basic knowledge of the Bible is essential. Most of these TV ministers are self taught. They always condem and criticize Seminaries. These people must attend some reputed seminary and then they should begin the ministry. Because they have not studied biblical interpretation, they interpret as they fit. As far as personal revelation is concerned, God gives it to all of us. Joyce Meyer is not the onoy chosen one. Last week, while prayer, my brother came in my thoughts. I prayed and I was disturbed. I called him and I found out that something unexpected happened to him. I had to comfort him. So, God revealed what happened to him. If Joyce Meyer claims to have special revelation and because of this, she should receive donations, that is like the Catholic church which Sold certificates of pardon for sins. It is time for these people to self examine in the light of the Apostle's work and begin to live asimple life of sacrifice. Then, their work will go leaps and bounds everywhere. TV is an excellent tool. But, this is being abused like Hollywood by these charlatans and HolyRollers. Their lifestyles are certainly the stumbling blocks for many. Meyers, Copelands and Hinns are blocking the doorway of salvation for many. Only thing that we can all do is to pray for these people so that they will all come under conviction and live alife of dedication and sacrifice. This may never happen as they will never like to give up their luxurious lifestyles. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 182 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Jeff: I believe that if you are a member of a church, there should be a significant level of trust already in the leadership to trust them with offerings and tithes that you give them. This kind of trust comes from knowing their hearts, not from examining financial records. As regards to the Copeland quote and related material, I would say that Jesus was separated from the Father because He did take on the sin of all mankind. I would not say, however, that Jesus "lost His Deity." No, He surrendered it, and there is a Bible basis for that, as well. Would you like me to share that? As regards to Joyce, she is not exactly re-phrasing what Copeland said. She probably agrees to some extent, but I think the only thing that Copeland and Joyce agree on, in this area, is the fact that Jesus did go to hell for 3 days to defeat Satan and his minions, so we can be liberated from our sin. mcmstaff: I think a congregation, esp. one of a smaller stature like my own (we have maybe around 150 people) is more akin to a privately-held company, which does not need to make the kinds of disclosures of a public company. I do not think when a church takes up an offering, or collects tithes from its members, that it is going to the "public" for its finances. Rather, I would say that a tithe is similar to private membership dues. Interestingly enough, some reform Jewish synagogues call their offerings and tithe requirements just that --- DUES. That is very different than seeking "public" funding. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Does your church provide a financial report to its members? Also, does it seek new members from the "public"? I bet it does. If a church doesn't provide financial statements to its members, there is something fishy going on. Also, I thought we were discussing televangelist "ministries" and Joyce Meyers in particular. They certainly do solicit funds from the "public" and should be required to report their finances. That is called, as marta pointed out, integrity! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 264 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
More bizzaro "Gospel" from the WoF. To declare that Christ "surrendered" His divinity is heresy of the rankest sort and has no resemblance to the Apostolic faith. As the Chalcedonian fathers declared: Christ was, at all times, from His conception to His death on the Christ and descent into hell, fully God. God, being one, cannot ever be separated from Himself and Christ was never "separated" from the Father. That WoF teaches such things should demonstrate to any who have a true love for Christ, just how upside down and bizzaro that theology is. Jonathan, you are so enamored with your own thoughts and opinions that you have gone far astray from what constitutes Christian faith. My prayer is that you will repent of your delusions and presumptuousness and truly come to Christ. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
mcmstaff: No, my church does not provide financial reports or statements to members. That is taught against, from a biblical view, at my church --- once you give your tithe, it is none of your business how it is spent. That is a Bible teaching at my church. I think integrity is doing what you say and being honest. I don't think integrity requires 100% transparency, which really is a different issue. Now, as to the Christ surrendering His divinity, there is Scripture for it. But before I go any further, mcmstaff, I do want to say: You admit and concede in your post that Christ "descent into hell." OK. But the Scriptures also teach in Phil. 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but EMPTIED HIMSELF, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Thus, Christ voluntarily "surrendered" His divinity by EMPTYING HIMSELF of it, as taught in this passage. Mcmstaff, how can you refute this passage of the Bible - ??? | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 197 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
You say that once the tithe is given, that what is done with it is none of our buisness. That is a Bible teaching. I am interested to hear where the Bible teaches that. I believe it is a church teaching, or more specifically your church's teaching, but I am unaware of the basis. I do not think the givers ought to be telling the church what to do with the money, though offerings can be directed by the giver at their discretion before giving. I do think the church should tell them where the money is going. I ask you why do they not tell? You also state earlier that a member should already have trust. If one were to accept that, it still barely applies to JMM as they derive a significant portion of their income from non-members. Most of these non-members trust her because they like what she is saying, not because they are so informed of what she does with the money. It's almost laughable to me that some of these ministries will go on national television and solicite money, and not tell us where it is being spent. Each year, we have a United Way campaign at work where we can give x % each week to a charity. The first thing I look at in determining if i want to participate is the % of money wasted on administration and management. I expect 75% or better going to the charity, and those groups are out there. You talk as if Christians ought to throw out common sense in giving money (unlike in the secular, real world), and blindly trust anyone that they mystically believe God wants them to give to. Let's see. Joyce has these multi-million dollar extravagences. She won't disclose how the money is spent that comes in. She constantly solicites more. If I saw that in any non church charity, I wouldn't even consider giving. Who would? Please tell em to the best of your knowledge what is the reason and basis for not disclosing this stuff. Perhaps when I hear how and why they have justified this, in their words preferably, I will realize I am wrong in my thinking here. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 199 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.92 |
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