| Author | Message | ||
     dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 210 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Has anyone heard of these, been involved with or had experience in either of these two groups which were originally started by Cay Anderson and Judy Sorensen? I'd love to hear your feedback. | ||
| dee_three New member Username: dee_three Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 70.22.159.225 |
DT - I'm new to this site, but am familiar w/ both those organizations. What is your involvement? | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi dee_three - I was born & raised at the COJ and lived at Grenville for almost five years. Where you ever involved with these? I plan to write some more in this thread, just havent had the energy as yet... (Message edited by dream_truth on May 01, 2006) | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 68 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
Hi Dream_truth, Those stories on the other threads are very moving regarding your childhood. My only connection w/ COJ was with a women in my last church, who was involved tangentially w/ them. She had negative things to say about them, but was never specific. For that reason, I never went down to visit. However, recently, I was reconsidering since I don't really know the facts. However, your story gives me pause. It sounds like it is very authoritarian group, based on your description. What is the connection between COJ & Grenville? One is on Cape Cod and the other in Canada? And in terms of the authoritarian leadership, is it the issue of this one person or is it institutional? In other words, if the current leader were to leave would the community become functional again? yochanan | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 288 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi yochanan - Thanks for checking this out! Its a little wierd starting a thread on my own. I'll do my best to answer your questions. What is the connection between COJ & Grenville? I was very young, so I dont know how the original connection was made between Farnsworth and the Mothers, but he was a devout follower of their teachings. Staff from grenville would frequently be sent to the community as live-ins and vice versa. Farnsworth was very needy to gain the approval of Cay and Judy. During the time I was at Grenville it was very apparent he tried very hard to replicate the community in his operations of the school. Much of the discipline he subjected me to was a result of direct orders from the Mothers. When a child became a problem at the community we would be sent to grenville to get straightened out. We used to say GCC stood for Grenville Concentration Camp. I am aware there was a split between the two groups at some point in the 90's, but I believe the relationship goes back and forth. One is on Cape Cod and the other in Canada? Yes, COJ is on Cape Cod, Grenville is in Brockville, Ontario (Canada) | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 289 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
And in terms of the authoritarian leadership, is it the issue of this one person or is it institutional? Thats a tough question. I believe it is a combination of both. Although the issue has a lot to do with the one person, I think most of the people there have been so indoctrinated into this way of life, that they are also a part of it. She doesnt have to tell anyone what she wants, because you learn to anticipate what is expected, and believe that it has come from God. In other words, if the current leader were to leave would the community become functional again? I would like to think that would be possible, but again, most of the people there are so indoctrinated with destructive practices. The history of both groups indicates this is not the case. COJ has changed leadership and has only become more secluded and rigid in their practices since this occurred. It would take a very unique individual to be able to guide these people back to individual freedom. GCC has also changed leadership, and from what I have been told, the result was the same. Also, many of the residents are second and third generation members. This is one of the reasons I thought that movie "The Village" was so good, it is a depiction of how lies perpetuate themselves through the generations, beyond the parents control. Thanks for asking questions, it helps me to put thoughts in words. It makes it a lot easier for me to process ideas when someone gives food for thought! | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 69 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
Hi Dreamtruth, Thanks for your answers to my questions. Have you managed to find others like you who grew up under this regime and escaped? It must be very hard for children who were born into this system and had no choice in the matter. Also, it must be very hard on any faith that you might have. And one final question: what motivated you to leave? yochanan | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 297 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi yochanan, Have you managed to find others like you who grew up under this regime and escaped? Yes, there are quite a few of us who left. Some have gone on to lead normal lives. Some still stuggle. I don’t think any are here on FactNet, but it is difficult to get over the fear of speaking out. It must be very hard for children who were born into this system and had no choice in the matter. Yes. You know, its interesting, because we were taught to try and be like Jesus, and in a situation to think “what would Jesus do?”. So, when I started to become aware of the hypocrisy and lies, I would think “Jesus would speak out. Jesus wouldn’t go along with the lies or be afraid of the consequences”. Of course this type of thinking got me into a lot of trouble!!! Also, it must be very hard on any faith that you might have. Yes, again. I am not a Christian any more. I have difficulty trusting anything in the form of a church or organized religeon. However, I have been able to build a strong set of moral beliefs and principles to live my life by. And one final question: what motivated you to leave? I was abused as a child. I was made to lie and forget about it. The mental, emotional and spiritual abuse as my life continued was unfathomable. I tried to seek help and begged to be put into therapy. They refused to give me any help outside the group. I fell into deeper and deeper depression. Their response to this was that I had been taken over by the devil and that I was an evil child. My anger, fear and despair grew on the inside while I did my best to suppress it on the outside. I didn’t know what was wrong with me, except that my only goal in life was to run away. My life was a continuous cycle of rebellions and subjecations. It is a complicated story, one that would take too long to tell here. But when I got up the courage, after an altercation with one of the adults, I just walked out and no one stopped me. I think at that point they wanted me to go. I’m pretty sure they felt confident I would fail in life anyways, having no real skills or resources. I am working on writing a more detailed account. I hope this answers your questions. Anything else?  | ||
| yochanan Member Username: yochanan Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.120.92.68 |
Hi Dream_truth, Thanks for being so open. After hearing your story, I am going to forget about going down for a visit. It is a shame that there are so many authoritarian personalities in the world, but it is even worse when they have power over you. At church, you can avoid them (or join another church); at work, you can get another job; but when you are in a community, with a commitment for life, they've got you... In a recent Time magazine, there was a story on the Opus Dei in the Roman church. One former member told how she had to have permission for doing everything, even using the bathroom. I thought, this sounds very similar to your experience... (and the TT experience)... You are a brave person to break out of all that...I pray that everything goes well for you in your new life. yochanan | ||
| dee_three New member Username: dee_three Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 71.124.157.36 |
dream_truth, In terms of if there are others, search Grenville on myspace.com and you'll see several different kids w/ similar backgrounds as yours. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 307 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
yochanan - I'm glad you've decided not to go there! Thanks for your supportive words of encouragement. dee_three - I'll be sure to check out myspace, thanks for the info. | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
Hey dream-truth, there's another old-CJ kid on the scene here...just tripped over it today, actually. Interesting. "Breaking out of all that" is exhausting at best. I feel like an alien arriving from another planet. The trick for me is not to let the CJ continue to control my life even though I'm no longer there. Tricky when it's been the sole form of known existence more than 7/8ths of your life. Fear & religion are a toxic mix, especially to children growing up. Scary trying to figure reality out. Not CJ reality, but free reality whatever that is. Question: Do you find it hard to authentically live & enjoy life? Not always either be an observer or always rationalizing? Just curious. Sort of nice to unexpectedly trip across someone who's lived in the planet I came from. (Message edited by laetamini on May 08, 2006) | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 309 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hey laetamini! Wow, I'm so glad I started this thread. You know I was really scared to do it, but some people on other threads encouraged me to ... I just want you to know you are SO BRAVE for getting out I agree, it definitly feels like we come from a different planet sometimes. Its been really important to not let them or the fear they instilled rule my life anymore. I've been out 15 years and its been a long road to freedom. I did find it hard to live and enjoy life for a long time. Thankfully, its not as hard anymore as it used to be. I'm kind of starting over again, as I ended up with a lot of problems when I left, not getting any help for a long time. Thats why I feel I want to reach out to others who have been through the same things. How long have you been out on your own? do you have any family, support people around to talk to who understand? There are lots of resources, and if you ever need someone to talk to I could figure out a way to give you my info...not sure if FactNet is a good place, but could figure it out. Feel free to add anything to the threads here, Im trying to get some info out there to inform any unknowing recruits that might be in danger of being lured into the trap. No more kids deserve to have to go through what we did. | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
It's been just a little over a year. No family. Well, no non-CJ family to speak of, everyone else is still there. This past year I've feel SO guilty and "bad", also letting everyone down and being disloyal. But truthfully for the first time in 34 years I feel authentic, and at this point I'm just existing. Can't imagine when I'm more fully engaged & energetic. That's worth everything this past year has held. The hardest thing has been being SO alone and trying to make this work, not just exist but actually live fully and joyfully. I also really want to reach out to others but the first step is healing myself. There's just so much to sift thru and turning the voices in your head off to boot is hard. Trying to explain it all to people, well it's almost not worth it....it's just so foreign. And I find myself wondering why it took so long to break free. I know why, but now it just seems like such a tragic waste of years. Perhaps I wasn't ready. It's really nice to have stumbled across you, whoever you are! The whole ethos has changed at the CJ and that's really what propelled me out. I was trying for so long to "change things from the inside." Over the last year or so I was there I realized it was pointless. Anyhow, would love to figure out a way to 'chat' in a more private manner if we can figure it out. I do go see a therapist once or twice a month, but this is beyond her scope of experience! She actually suggested I look around for info. about recovering from cults, etc. and that's how I came across FactNet. It's funny to read some of what you've written about, and that's barely even scratching the surface! | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 310 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi laetamini, Hi again! I think we probobly already know each other, because I think we're about the same age...If you would like to contact me please send an email to Faith McClure at fmcclure@hotmail.com - she is the president of an organization called Commune Kids, Inc., a support network for second generation members like us who were raised in a high demand group and left. She has agreed to be a go between for us to exchange contact info, so I will let her know to give you my info, ok? She also has access to resources which could be helpful to you! I met her at a conference which I attended a couple weeks ago in Connecticut for SGAs (second generation adults) - she is one of us. It is normal what you are going through. We were taught to feel guilty about EVERYTHING. even things we have no control over! I have battled with the same feelings you are talking about. Its really confusing sometimes, and talking to people about it can seem voyeristic at best. Wow, that is amazing that you stayed so long, trying to effect change from within. I cant imagine how you did it, but I would love to hear your story. I still have family there as well. Yeah, what I've written here barely scratches the surface. Some things are just so hard to put in words, you know? | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
I am very interested in this subject. I did a post earlier and it did not go through. I am doing a test this time. Sorry for the inconvenience. | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
Hi Dream Truth and others on this great website... I have been reading the CofJ posts and need your help!!! My inlaws moved there 2 years ago... Since this happened, my husband and I (living across the country) have been very upset about the changes occuring in them. They have gone from happy, gentle people to exhausted, emotionally-removed zombies. Now the community is currently under the control of "Mother" Betty and we find it is brimming with destructive, mind-control techniques... We find that my inlaws are constantly accountable to the community; they must have another married couple living with them in their own house. What is particularly troubling is that this other couple has the right to interfere in my inlaws' marriage when "God tells them." Thus my inlaws are always tense and fearful together and of each other. It is a scary thing to see their 35 plus year marriage under such stress. Also, the community discourages them from having contact with family. They have to ask for permission to leave and visit us (and their grandchildren). When we visited the community for week at Christmas, we were "kicked out" because the community is closed to "outsiders" on Christmas and Easter. Umm... I thought the "family of God" would welcome the participation of family and friends on holy days??!! Again, when we were visiting, my inlaws spent very little time with us; they were not excused from choir practice nightly, which lasted from 6 PM to 1 AM. They were so exhausted that they slept every day and we hardly saw them... Secrecy is another factor which is a warning sign to us. When we were visiting at the same time, my husband was assisting (very kindly) with their Saturday work crew at the church. My father-in-law was reprimanded for allowing his son in the "members only" part of the church; and it was done in front of my husband so he could be included in the reprimand but not in a subtle way... what are they hiding?? I can't think of any "church" that does doesn't allow people to worship (or work) in the building. The same control issues came to a head when they visited us. The community called them on their cellphones constantly; they also spent a ton of time returning calls and making "work" related calls back to Cape Cod. The result was that we hardly saw them (they slept a lot) and they didn't have much interest in their precious grandchildren... These people are not my inlaws!!! What do I do??? This is destroying our family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 325 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
hi max- wow, thanks for sharing your story. the community has taken many people away from thier families, unfortunately. when my parents joined, they cut off all ties with thier parents for over 20 years!  So, i grew up with virtually no contact with any of my grandparents. I can tell you that to try and tell your inlaws directly that they are involved in a cult wont do much good. If anything, it will make them distance themselves from you further. I will try and think of some resources that could be helpful to you, but i would suggest that for now to try and keep contact and just let them know how much you love them. Maintaining contact is crucial, as you are probobly the only positive outside influence they have remaining at this time. I am truely sorry your life is being effected by this destructive group. | ||
| ramblin_man New member Username: ramblin_man Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.124.157.36 |
hi everyone - another CJ kid here. New to this site and maybe to the idea that CJ is/was a cult. I guess that's because I'm not clear on the exact definition of a "cult". There's no question that the governance is totally autocratic - all roads lead to Mother Betty - which is certainly cult-ish. However, I'll bet each and every member swears their allegiance is to God. I guess I'm a little foggy on how you reconcile religion and human power. I certainly appreciate all the candor. I've still got family there too so can relate to what everyone is saying. Maxiez32, your story paints a very familiar picture and I think DT is right, keeping contact is extremely important. Your observation about how communal living makes couples fearful and tense, not just of others, but of each other is hauntingly accurate. Laetamini, I know exactly what your talking about w/ the disloyalty, guilt etc. etc. In the thick of that myself. Perhaps like you, CJ still has a firm grasp on me - psychologically, emotionally and spiritually. Do you find yourself expecting something bad to happen to you because you left? There's so much to discuss it's hard to know where to begin. At the very least, it seems a good idea that people are venturing out of the shadows and starting to share experiences. It's just so hard to get past the fear... | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
Time for a quick hello...thank you for your posts DT and Ramblin Man...I talked to my inlaws just last night. My husband made the mistake of questioning them about some of the practices I mentioned in this letter: my father-in-law became defiant and my mother-in-law just babbled. We were supposed to have them out for a visit but now we suspect the community will not allow them to go. My inlaws just say that it's not a good time for them; we offered again to come out and visit them but they informed us again that "it's not a good time" and that the community was "enclosed" at that time. We left it at that, told them we loved them, and promised to talk again soon. Maybe one way you guys can help me is to let me know what it is really like in there currently. I have lots of info about the abuse of the past, but little about what is going on NOW (with the exception of us visiting for a week)...anything as specific as you can get would be a God-send at this point. We love my inlaws, but we feel it is wrong to let them go "without a fight," or at least some reaction on our part. Thanks for your courage!! | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Hi everyone, Another CJ/GCC survivor coming out of the woodwork. I can only say that it is so good to hear everyone putting into words what I have felt for so long....fear, guilt, alienation....more later | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
maxie, you are truly in a no win situation. I can tell you from first hand experience. Time helps a lot. Treat them very gently, as you would a sick child who doesn't want to be touched. Let them feel that they have the power in the situation...that you are not trying to overwhelm them. Pretty soon they will come around but only if you do not threaten their choices. It sucks, but it's the only way. You'll have to play the game, unfortunately...and insert little bits of questioning where you can, but very carefully. Try to stay cool when discussing how they hurt you, but keep letting them know. ie) It really hurt when you chose that special church event over our family reunion)....their response will most likely be that the cj is their "call" and family comes second to that....or the "house" thought it would be better if we stayed, or, or, or.....at least you've registered how it effects you.....that's all you can do. Have any of your other family members moved there? | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 333 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi searchlight  ...I must say now I'm a little embarrassed for giving you such a hard time in our religeous debates....(sticks foot in mouth) Hi ramblin_man , wow everything everyone is saying is hitting home with me, and my mind is churning thinking 'I probobly know these people' I dont "hate" the community, its been quite a struggle figuring out how I feel about that place, but hate isnt the right word. i might hate some of the things that happened to me, but that place is still full of people who mean well but are just severely misguided. all roads lead to Mother Betty I couldnt have said it better myself. | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Hi DT...no need to be worried on my account. Perhaps it's a different "searchlight".....I just heard about this site today.....and you're so right...I too am constantly confused about how I feel...some really good people, some real jerks, some power hungry, some wanting to be controlled....and no one wants to say what is what....as an extremely outspoken person I was constantly causing trouble - it was OK for awhile (they thought I was "spunky" at first) but when my questioning was directed at the leadership things really went downhill and I had to get out..... | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 334 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
I think it was another searchlight... So you were a troublemaker too, like me? I just couldnt keep myself out of trouble no matter how hard I tried (which was not at all sometimes). | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
yes, dt....and I am also quite familiar with D at GCC!!!! I don't know how many times I was put in the can room in the kitchen and told to wipe down every can and every shelf....I think it took me a week that time! Then, out of the blue, someone shows up playing "good cop" and acts all loving, all is forgiven (I still can't figure out what I did...) and springs you....The funny thing is that I always felt that there was a part of me they envied, both at GCC and CofJ. I just couldn't pretend, suck up, lie. Although it made for a painful ride, I think it saved me in the end...p.s. I'm not religious either. I think it's all a power play. I think we humans want to make sense of things, make ourselves feel better about all the crap, so we comfort ourselves with notions of heaven for those who behave and follow the rules, eternal damnation (for the bad ones whom we disapprove of) etc etc.....I think that if there is a God he/she is probably disgusted with us and what we've made him out to be....now I'm babbling.... | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 335 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
omg. I cant believe you remember the can room. you just brought back insane memories, and that good cop description...you said it exactly!!!! I think i want to start a closed discussion forum or something so we can all chat a little freer. what do u think? | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
Wow, it's sort of comforting to hear from r.m. & s.light, too. Ramblin' Man, I know what you mean about CJ a cult? I feel very mixed on that. My therapist suggested I look into cult resources for help trying to get my life going both practically as well as emotionally. However she put the huge caveat "I'm not saying the CJ is a cult" bcs she knows my mixed feelings about it! However, the more I read the more it sure seems to have a lot of some of the scary aspects of cults. There are some good things too. Yes, I've been terrified that something bad's going to happen since I left. My therapist tells me God's not like that. I understand her words, but inside I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. I realized I'm also living my life like God's on the CJ's side. Maxie, the reason I left, well truthfully I think I knew inside 20 years ago that I would end up leaving, however I kept postponing it. As a child I was on so many disciplines, didn't live with my parents, and my parents were on the s%&t-list, so I was always trying to be the ultimate good girl to 'buy' a cease-fire from being in trouble. I got so good at training myself to read how I should behave from people's expressions or the 'vibes' they gave off that's it's scary in retrospect. Truthfully I became an animal trying to survive. I trained myself to have no bad thoughts because I didn't want to have to confess any. An example. Sex as a topic is a big no-no at the community. You don't have fantasies, or if you do you confess them. Well at the time of life you find out about these matters all of a sudden I started having sex thoughts & panicked. Would peopled think I was a ••••. So I practiced what was known as "battle for your mind" and trained myself to blank out any thoughts that even smacked of sex, so that I truly wasn't thinking thoughts and therefore I didn't have anything to confess. The bad part was I learned this for any area of 'badness', if I had a judgemental or spiteful thought, I just learned to blank it out. I'm also a very 'quick' person intellectually as well as emotionally. That set people off, so I'd walk around telling myself 'don't have an opinion. it doesn't matter what you think. don't think, don't feel.' Sounds really healthy, right? | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
This is part 2 as my post was too long!  Maxie, the reason I left, and I left a little over a year ago, is because in my opinion the CJ is closing in on itself. It doesn't have an outside check and balance system, so all roads lead to the leader (whoever it is at the moment, now its MB) under the "Holy Spirit." The HS seemed quite petty and tyrannical at times. He also seemed to have favorites. The teaching to me was getting extremely biased and narrow in focus. And I especially hated how spiritually superior it was. The us vs. them. I agree about the off-limits services & areas. The reason given is because the community needs privacy to nourish themselves. But, honest-to-pete does it really need MULTI-Million dollar buildings that only they can go into? I was really wanting to change things from the inside, but realized that it was futile, especially because the CJ is at the mercy of the Holy Spirit. We used to call it the pendulum swing. For a time things seemed to be getting more open, less cult-like. But now, it really scared me into leaving. I can totally picture how you are describing your in-laws. I just know that any questioning or antagonism will instantly set you at odds with them and label you as a bad influence. Then your communications & access to them will become very limited. It will be your in-laws that limit it (of course at the suggestion of the CJ), however they will see you as trying to 'lure' them away. I totally agree with the suggestions. Patience, love, acceptance WHILE trying to in a low-key manner almost jokingly point out something you're puzzled by may be the way to go. NON-CONFRONTATIONAL, in my opinion, is the way to keep communication channels open. Well, I've gone on a little long here. I can't say what a relief this little message board has been, as I've felt a bit like I'm in a sailfish in the middle of the ocean during hurricane season this past year. I have to say I loathe the shunning part of leaving...! Dream_truth I really like the idea of a closed discussion forum. I've been a bit worried about certain other eyes stumbling onto this... | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 2243 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.182.245 |
Praise God. I am so glad you started this dream_truth. This seems to be bringing about a better healing and understanding of experiences you all shared but kept hidden. This is what factnet is for. Please continue! | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
You all are a real blessing to me!! Thank you for sharing such private moments with me...I will keep you all updated on my struggle with the CofJ and my quest to show our family members there as much love and Christ-like compassion as we can, all while praying for their deliverance...I pray right now for all of us to experience some PEACE as we struggle through... God bless, Maxiez32 | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
If it makes anyone feel any better, I sat down and made a list tonight of people that had left the CofJ (including children). For such a relatively small organization the list was very long...120 names so far (almost half the current membership). It just gave me a little comfort to remember that I'm not alone. My spouse is constantly reminding me to stop giving them so much power. Even though I'm not there anymore, there are times when they still have the power because it's in my head. fear mostly. How could God ever want me to have nightmares every night? How could he want me to live in dread of hell? Why would he want confusion to surround me all the time. Somone once said that there are times when you have to "throw your hat over the wall" and then climb over yourself and chart a new course. Well, the hat is long gone and I'm over the wall too, so why do I still feel so afraid? | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 2249 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.182.245 |
Because of the satanic grip those people still have on your mind. You are definitely still dealing with satanic forces. Spiritual warfare. Just know you are on the right side of that battle, justice will be served and the guilty will be punished. Give it time. The best solution I think is, yes, do not give them any power. Imagine their evil kingdom crumbling. Get actively involved, without consuming your life, to shutting them down. There is a way. Help get others out. This is all I can tell you because I do not know all of your circumstances. This is a typical cult and it too shall fall. Until you feel righteous anger and get into the fight you will still feel afraid. Fight! | ||
| bluewater2 Advanced Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 741 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Hey Franklin, I answered your question over on the Christianity/Bible thread. So you can answer mine. | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
Hi Searchlight: I am so sorry that you are still having nightmares...I don't think that God "wants you" to have nightmares; I think it's just that you are human and the effects of the community will continue to linger for some time. It's sort of like grieving, what you are experiencing. Time helps to ease the pain, as well as communicating with people who understand your situation, prayer or meditation on the gifts God has given you, and perhaps even help from a certified counselor...I don't have experience in what you suffered, but I can share that I have had some serious health problems that still cause me to live in fear, confusion, pain...it's part of the human condition. But I do feel better and healthier when I share with others, pray/meditate, and seek help from an expert (maybe a counselor, therapist, pastor, rabbi, priest...whatever works for you). I am so sorry if this is coming across like preaching; I just want to you know that I understand your fears and that they are VERY legitimate. Perhaps you have gone through the suffering to help others get out of a similar situation; that's what I believe when it comes to my health issues...I use my troubles as a way to help others and I find that the pain is less. Just some ideas... God bless you and keep you, Maxi | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Maxi, thank you for your thoughts. No, I do not think you are preaching. The problem is that I still don't know if they were or were'nt right. All I know is that I was dying inside every minute I was there. Leaving was not a choice. It was like emergency surgery. I had to do it. I finally decided that even if leaving meant damnation, I had to do it. I have no idea what is what when it comes to all the god stuff. that scares me too. thanks again for your thoughts. | ||
| ramblin_man New member Username: ramblin_man Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Laetamini - I really hear you on all the stuff you're talking about...waiting for the other shoe to drop, making every move in your life based on someone's expression or 'vibe'. The 'shunning' as you put it, is also a little tough. Nice to hear I'm not the only one. Also agree w/ you about the ethos changing. It's definitely getting more and more internal w/ time which has the effect of heightening the us vs them tension. The more internal it gets, the less anyone else understands, the more it forces them to cling slavishly to their questionable premise. As Maxi pointed out, it's busier now than it ever has been. It's always been busy (sadly it's the children who pay the price on that one as their parents are never home to put them to bed etc.) but from the sounds of it, people are stretched to the breaking point. Makes you wonder if people are just trying to (borrowing from the film THE HOURS) keep out the silence? Almost like everyone's afraid to step back and quietly evaluate exactly what they're doing and why. Another distant observer i know once said, for people who think 'control' is such a sin, it's interesting that the leadership insists on all of it. Lastly, thank you Franklin for your comments. It's useful to get views from the outside. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Hey folks. My first post here. I grew up at Grenville for 11 years and was a monk(brother) at the community for 20 + years. I left 5 years ago, am married and hope to have our first child this year. Very interesting to hear your thoughts. I am very sorry for those who experienced the controlling abuses that were rampant. I have many scars myself. I have not read all the posts yet but will get to it. would love to chat with whoever and answer questions if you like. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
A few thoughts here. The CofJ was born out of the charismatic movement. It was also a time of insecurity in our nation's history with Vietnam, JFK's assasination, etc. Cay and Judy appeared on the horizon as very strong leadership. And those people who felt comfortable to follow that did so. Their children were born in that environment and indoctrined to the teachings of the founders. The administration has become cult-like in it's absolute authority. I am aware of many situations that are scandlous and damaging that were covered up and concealed from the members themselves. I very much wanted to expose these things and cause the present administration to crumble. The next prioress or prior will have a severely daunting task. I choose not to make public for now these incidents for fear of causing a lot of hurt and pain to the many people still living there. I care for my old friends there and it pains me to see the progressive absolute control, nepotism, favoritism and manipulation of these folks. They sacrificed everything to do what they were convinced was God's will. For now I only pray for them and that God will raise up someone who can make the necessary changes that will cause much needed reformation. The worship is good, the people are good. The administration should step down as her appointment has expired twice. For us all who left with heavy hearts, my prayers are for healing and closure in our lives as we establish relationships with others who may find it so hard to understand where we have been. Pax | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 339 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Reading these posts has been so validating to me, the things you all write about are so much like my own experience. Leaving for me meant that I was accepting damnation - I dont feel that way anymore, but I did for a long time. Theres so much I want to say in reply to peoples posts, but its kind of overwhelming to see so many accounts from others all at once! I started a yahoo group that needs moderator approval to join. Its a closed discussion group if anyone wants to check it out, it might be a good place to reconnect seeing as we probobly all know each other! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/excoj If anyone wants to join it, please identify yourself when you sign up as a user so I can make sure I'm not just approving anyone into the discussion board. That way we can maybe feel a little more safe about what we are saying. Any thoughts on this? | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
Right on, ex-monk!!! Since my family is in there as well, we just continue to pray for change in leadership. I know there are many good and Godly people there who are confused (even if they don't admit it, their actions and personalities reveal it). Also, this is the case in many churches, social groups, or any organization with oppressive hierarchy. It's the scary issues of autonomy (which is Bible and Christ-centered to the core) suppression, the violation of free will that God gives us, and the administration's exclusive position that the most important and only spiritual outlet is through the community FAMILY (not through the God-given birth family) that are hallmarks of a controlling group mentality that is not of GOD. The Bible warns us against such "deceivers," as well as the course of human history. Pray, pray, pray!! My own faith in God, my understanding of human nature, and my life has been touched by me knowing the CofJ...in positive and negative ways as an "outsider"...I never actually lived there. Congrats on your growing family!!!! We have little ones too... D-T...to be perfectly honest, I am uncomfortable with the idea of a separate forum...maybe because I don't have the history of personal abuse that you all have. It's not something that I would be interested in...but thank you for suggesting it. Perhaps others would find it valuable!! Peace to all of you, Maxiez | ||
| awakening New member Username: awakening Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.62.49.15 |
I’ve been reading the CofJ thread with interest but had not planned to participate, until someone suggested taking it to a private Yahoo site. That would be a mistake. It would play right into the enemy’s hands. He does not want everyone knowing how many have been hurt and damaged. He wants it kept secret, out of the public eye. The power of carrying on this thread in the open is precisely that: it is in the open. No secrets. Nothing to hide. And the longer it stays in the open, the wider the awareness becomes. God loves every single member of the CofJ. But He can no longer tolerate what is being done there in His name. We have all known that a day of reckoning was coming. That day has arrived, and God is choosing this method to do it, in full daylight, in the open forum of public discussion. In this way, none of those we love there will be personally hurt. But the evil which has been perpetrated is His name will be exposed and revealed. The power of the religious spirit that has held sway over the CofJ will be broken. The members who have been blinded to it and held captive under its spell, will be released. All we have to do is stay open and pray. When they become aware of this thread, they will be praying, too – against us. But we are going to win, because we are on God’s side in this holy war. And it is war, make no mistake about it. So if you care abut how it turns out, if you have loved ones still there, commit to pray and keep on praying. We are nearer victory than you think. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 2315 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.182.245 |
Very well spoken, awakening. That is exactly how they will be defeated. In the open. satan hates the light of day. And so do these fiends. This is what they have been dreading. Public exposure. The best way to protect your loved ones still there is to keep this forum public. And there is strength in numbers. What they don't want. As long as you speak the truth there can be no reprisal against you. Speak! Let it out! Every word of truth you speak is one step closer to releasing those still captive. When you expose them you also help expose all dangerous religious cults. You help thousands who are suffering. Do it for yourself. Do it for them. Speak! | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.16.140.140 |
Hey folks, I must say I've been 'quiet' because I'm uncomfortable with some of the rhetoric flying around in these postings. Truthfully the language against the CJ raises my hackles just as much as some the CJ lingo. Perhaps I'm not sure what the purpose of FactNet is for. I guess I was thinking it was an area for discussion, healing, debate. Perhaps I'm too new. Personally I'm not all into the CJ being an evil place. I think there are specific areas of serious concern and things really need changing. Can it happen? Truthfully, I don't know. I think spiritual warfare languages just rubs me extremely the wrong way as it's been mis-used in so many ways for most of my life, that in my opinon it's rattling sabres. But that's me. What exactly are we discussing? The evils of the CJ? If so I think I'll move on. If there's other discussion about how to heal, how to get over some of the abuses, some of the experiences since moving out of the CJ, the 'truths' that were drilled into us and now trying to get a broader less vitriolic view then I'm in. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 375 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi all. I'm sorry this whole thing is upsetting people. My intention is not to create a place to rant about coj, more to get some of us connected, and talk about healing, as laetamini said. I dont see any point in trying to shut them down, that would just leave a whole bunch of displaced confused individuals that we all care deeply about!!!! The private discussion board was an idea for anyone who want a way to try and contact others in a safe environment. Maybe its not the best idea. I completely understand the fears and concerns of everyone here. Its best for some of us to stay completely anonymous at this point. I didnt post much yesterday because I too am having mixed emotions as well. Its all so overwhelming. I love you all. Peace | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 2318 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.182.245 |
I understand your concerns about saber rattling laetamini. And the talk of spiritual warfare. Some might find comfort in that, some might be turned off by it. Some here I know are not even spiritual people. But I think it will have the effect of lessening the burden of those still there. With public exposure like this, it is riskier for them to continue with the abuse than if their secrets were kept out of the public eye. Factnet has many different purposes. And yes, it is also a place for discussion and healing. I've said my piece. Go ahead. Continue. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
I think Latamini is correct. If we become militant against the CofJ, we are essentially taking the situation into our own hands and people we care about will be hurt and lives potentially ruined. The Community is not an evil place. That place is in God's hands and as far as we know God is still in charge. We must prayerfully consider what we say and primairily try to help those of us who left to get through the transition to life in the real world. Of all the power we posess, the greatest is love. There is a time and season for all things. By the words of those concerned, it seems this is a time of healing. Perhaps reconciliation is not far off. I wish and pray for everyone who left, to come to healing, peace, and blessing. Most of the experiences I had there were good and happy memories. Let's not let the bad memories completly alter our perspective. I visited the community last Oct. and realized that a lot of people were as hurt that I left as I was when I left. We are all sinners and some people are convinced they are doing Gods work when they could potentially be hurting others. We fall and get back up each time putting our foot forward. When I visited, some old friends were very warm and hugged me warmly and greeted my wife graciously. Others ignored and/or just walked away. I chose not to get offended and felt good about having gone there to see old friends. They remain in my prayers and We all remain in God's hands. That may be the best we can do. Pax (Message edited by exmonk on May 12, 2006) | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 377 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
I agree with exmonk, laetamini, searchlight... Although for years I was very bitter, this type of thinking got me nowhere. I wallowed in my own misery for years holding resentments and anger. This led me to self-destructive behavior and actions and did no one any good, neither the people who I cared about or myself. I think connecting with others who shared the same experiences is an important part of the healing process, and to know that we arent alone. Franklin has never been to coj, so his approach may seem ignorant, but he just has no idea really of what its all about. The transition, as you say, was so difficult for me. I know that when I left, I left behind all family and friends I had ever known. I couldnt stand to stay, but I had nowhere else to go. I was very young and ended up in abusive relationships and self-medicating. I couldnt stand to be alone or feel. I hope that no one has to go through these kinds of things when they leave and know that we arent alone. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 2319 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.182.245 |
You are correct in saying that I do not know what it is all about with CofJ. I know of the cult that my son was in and how it effected my life. There are many similarities. But there is much I do not know. I am just glad that this forum was started for all of you and that this healing process can truly begin. Thanks for your understanding.  | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
Well, God bless all of us!! You all are very courageous in this forum and I think that's the wisdom of God showing His face here...and the strength of human character we all possess... I grew up in an extremely fundamentalist Bible church, so I too am sometimes uncomfortable with the fire and brimstone language...but I am not afraid to admit that I am a Christian, so my Christian "language" will color my posts...I will try to keep the preaching to a minimum!! I spoke with my pastor about the concerns I have about my family's involvement in CofJ. His response was very rational and very calm, which at first irritated me. I guess I expected him to get all emotional and send the church into the CofJ to rescue everyone. Instead, he admonished me to pray and to continue gathering information on the community as I see fit, for my own peace of mind. I have always been the "researcher" in my family and I enjoy learning new things. I want to gather as many facts as I can, so if (and I pray when) the time comes that my family there feels moved to seek guidance from the outside, they will be comfortable and I will be prepared to help them in the best possible way. I agree that CofJ is not evil...there are just certain "man-made" elements there that are out-of-sync with the tenants of a Christian community. Don't get me wrong...this is not something to be taken lightly...we all know the David Koresh story...but the community isn't exactly Waco. It's the elements there that need to be addressed. Just my thoughts this morning...I can't thank you enough everyone. This seems to be a healing place for us all!! Peace, Maxiez | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.16.140.140 |
Here are some topics I wouldn't mind having some discussion on: 1. Guilt. How to get past it. Guilt over everything (I realize part of the guilt is my innate nature and not from past). However, guilt at letting people down for leaving. Guilt for leaving so many friends & family behind. Feeling like I'm bad for this and need to explain. 2. Feeling like God will punish me, if not now sometime in the future. 3. Fitting into contemporary life. With little shared conversation topics such as trivia or common life experiences I sometimes wonder if I'll ever feel normal (whatever the heck normal is!) 4. What is normal? 5. Language & intonations, esp. when calling on holidays/b-days. I go nuts inside. How to break the power of words or intonations. M's day is Sunday. I'm dreading the phone call!! 6. Change me, how I react, how to take back 'my power or personhood' for lack of better language. I can't change anything about my past, or get affirmation from CJ people that wrong may have been done. So I need to change my thinking, my feelings and be able to truly move past it. Not just say the words, but really. Of course I'm a very (overly) sensitive person. I can't just blow things off. 7. OH -- how to have fun. This is sad, but I really don't know. I fake fun, but I'm not really experiencing it. Any thoughts anyone?? This is really trying to just have some discussion from others' perspectives. Tips (advice not $) are welcome! | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Dear Laetamini, 1. In your personal life, you, YOU come first. You are a good person as we have all read your posts. It is very evident. Put your feelings of guilt on the shelf for now. Love yourself as God loves you. 2. Stand on the truth that you are a blood bought child of God. He loves you and wants you to be happy. Choose to be happy now, that honors God. Why would he want to punish you? Try to think differently than you were brought up to think. 3.Fitting in is going to be difficult. I suggest finding something you would very much enjoy and look for a group or club to get involved with. For me it was Scuba diving. 4. Normal is not letting the insecurity you feel get the better of you. We all deal with it. Tell yourself that you are going to unconditionally accept yourself and start from there. 5. Go ahead and call them. Tell them that you love them. Perfect love casts out all fear. "Just do it" as the Nike slogan goes. 6. Be 100 % true to yourself. Do not compromize your integrity for someone elses approval or acceptance. Find quality people to be with and better yourself. As far as getting affirmation from the Cofj that wrong was done to you, that will likey never happen. 7. Find a hobby, activity that you like. Try to hook up with like minded folks, church groups, clubs and aggressivly persue it if you feel comfortable with it. Again for me it was scuba diving. It has become my "nirvana" if you will. I and other will definately keep you in our thoughts and prayers. Good luck and God speed. | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
Dear Laetimini, I think Ex-Monk is right on, again!! I never lived there, but having witnessed my family still there, I can't emphasize enough that "having fun" will be an exciting thing for you once you can "learn to have fun," by doing things for yourself, hobbies, clubs, or just watching some movies or TV...whatever makes you relaxed and whatever makes you enjoy the person that you are... You might enjoy some good thinking time out in nature; I love in a lovely part of the country where I can take long walks and just think about things. Pretty soon I am having a conversation with myself and other little ideas pop into my head...that seems to be the voice of God in my opinion. I would say just getting to know what YOU LIKE again might be the first step. I will pray for you and for all of us!!! Love and Peace, Maxie | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
Hi everyone, I'm new here - just came across this forum today. I, too, grew up in the CofJ, and I want to reassure all of you who have recently left and are struggling with fear and guilt that it DOES GET BETTER. I left eight+ years ago and struggled with the same things for quite awhile. In fact, I still have "community" dreams on a regular basis. But, through therapy, a supportive social system, and the discovery of new talents and passions, I have been able to separate myself from that place of fear and guilt and step into a life of joy. There are a few things I want to say, and I'm going to be very blunt. To speak about Satan as having a hold over us and to refer to the Community as filled with evil people is cruel and ignorant. Please, if you haven't lived at the CofJ or at Grenville, do not pretend to know what the place is like or make assumptions about the people who live there or have left. The only thing that mentioning Satan's hold over our minds is going to do is create MORE fear, which is the last thing anyone needs, particularly those who have recently left and are still reeling from the terrible loneliness of the shunned and the guilt they have been conditioned to feel. Furthermore, labeling a place like the CofJ as evil or the kingdom of Satan is nothing more than simplistic. Very little in this world is all good or all bad, the CofJ included. Yes, it's hurt a lot of people. Yes, it's left ex-members wrestling with fear and guilt. But anyone who has spent any amount of time there will tell you that she has an incredible work ethic, that she is trained in music to a degree hardly possible without completing years at a prestigious music school. She will tell you that she is compassionate, that she appreciates beauty, that she remembers the moments of genuine laughter along with the moments of genuine terror or grief. If we set up the false portrayal of such a place as evil, then those of us who have left can only see our pasts as wasted, as stolen from us. There is no room for beauty or goodness or meaning. And in order to move on with our lives, to create meaning and to discover joy, we must not allow ourselves to listen to anyone who will only spread more fear. Finally, to those of you who have left recently, I would recommend several things. First, if you are still living on the Cape, do everything in your power to leave. In order to heal, you need to separate yourselves from the community and from the possibility that you could bump into current community members at the grocery store or the gas station. Seeing them will only cause great consternation and force you to relive painful memories or experience conditioned emotions. Second, remember that you really have been conditioned to be afraid and to feel that gut-clenching guilt. My therapist used to say to me, “Can you be kind to yourself?” It took me a long time to get to that place, and I still have to remind myself of her words now and again – but if you can find ways to soothe your fear and anxiety, you’ll begin to grow more confident and less fearful. One of the best ways to do this is through a combination of therapy and slow, deep breathing. Each of you will figure out how to make it through the next months and years, and you’ll find as time goes on that you’ll feel more and more alive and increasingly more joyful. I wish for all of you who have left enormous strength and tremendous peace. Beyondfear | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
Thank you Beyondfear. This is extremely helpful. What you've said about the CJ is exactly how I feel. "Can you be kind to yourself?" A succinct phrase to sum up what others have asked me. I look forward to the time my answer can be yes. Thank you very, very much. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Welcome Beyondfear, thanks for you input. I agree we should keep the dicussion positive and focused on helping those of us who are struggling with guilt, anger and despair to cope. Am I the only one who did not get therapy? I had some good friends at Duke University to talk to. One being a brilliant doctor of psycology, and other very good friends who looked after me to make sure I was a part of their families and so on. The mutual respect shown by all my friends was overwhelming and liberating. I would love for us to at some point in time if posible to actually get together for a fun weekend of nothing but having fun and catching up in each other's lives. Re-eastablishing friendships and being even more a support group for each other. | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
Hello exmonk, I have a few other issues to deal with. I didn't go for counseling bcs of "the community", actually. Just so you don't feel 'out of it'.  | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Thanks Laetamini, Hope all goes very well for you. I have been praying for you a lot and I went through a very tough time my first year out. I felt like Brendan Frasier in that movie "Blast From The Past". I did a lot of music at Duke Univeristy and there were lots of people who were trying to get me hitched. After two very complicated relationships I decided it was way to soon to get involved with anyone. But God looks after us and I managed to survive. It gets much easier after that first year, I promise you. And you have all of us routing for you. My wife and I are celbrating our 2nd wedding anniverssary next month. God Bless! | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Dear Beyondfear, thanks so much for your thoughts and your perspective. It is therapeutic to remember the good too. thank you for reminding us. It's easier to dwell on the bad, maybe as way to assuage the guilt...and fear of divine repercussions for leaving. You are so right in saying that we were enriched in many ways...I was a direct beneficiary of many opportunities that broadened my horizon...Many, many people sincerely loved me and I think still do. Much of the fear and aloneness I felt there towards the end was due, in large part, to lack of understanding and fear, I think, on their part. Many could not see, or did not want to. It is actually since I have left that I have become more bitter....which I guess is unfortunate....since that is not the attitude I left with. It is like the longer I am out the more I see things "clearly", the more I feel released from prescribed inside perspective. This at once liberates me, empowers me and terrifies me. I am suddenly out from under the "umbrella of grace" that is offered by the HS to all who fully subscribe and are obedient there. Then my inward wrestling match commences once again...the horrible stuggle to reconfirm to myself that I was justified in what I did....that I don't have to feel afraid....that they will see sooner or later...in this life or the next....but then, then, oh god, I realize nothing has changed at all. Underneath it all, I am the one who could not cut it. I failed. Maybe there will be mercy. I hope so. | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
Hi Searchlight, What you're going through is very normal. I, too, left with a positive attitude about the community - it was too scary to admit how unhappy I'd really been there. Then, as I spent more and more time away from the CJ, I began to become more bitter and more angry. I didn't want to be bitter - I knew that it was giving them too much power. Looking back, though, the anger was an important part of my healing process. It allowed me to see that the things I had experienced there were unhealthy and that I wasn't a bad person for leaving. Gradually, as I became more confident in myself, I began to feel less anger and more compassion for those still there, still under the power of MB's rule. My dreams, in fact, were a good indication of how I was progressing. At first, they were all about being trapped somewhere, not being able to leave, sitting in meetings and being screamed at, etc. Gradually, I began to stand up for myself until, in one dream, I stood up to MB and said, "F--- you!" When I woke up and realized what my dream was telling me, I realized that I'd come a long way from my cowering fear. I've come even further now, and have less of a need for that kind of angry self-assertion - though I know that if I were to go back to the CJ and have some kind of interaction, I'd be very affected for a long time! Anyway, I see how much fear you're struggling with right now, Searchlight. I see how much you're struggling with those voices of criticism and damnation. I'm so sorry you're so afraid. Try to be good to yourself, and when those thoughts of fear start to take over your mind, try to still your mind, your body. I have a wonderful friend who understood a lot of the struggles I was going through, and she told me that when things got really hard for her, she would repeat to herself over and over again, "It's okay, I'm going to be okay." I started doing that for myself, too, and it was very reassuring to remind myself that, while I was suffering terribly from loneliness or fear or guilt, I was going to come out on the other side, intact and full of peace. I wish you peace and joy, and I know that it's waiting for you. Just be patient with yourself in the meantime. Love to you all, Beyondfear | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Dear Searchlight, Gods grace is just as accessible to you now if not more so than when you were in the community. Stand on that truth and claim it. Don't let your mind and an old way of thinking you were conditioned to, stop you from claiming the love and grace of God as your own. You are and will forever be a blood bought child of God and no person or group can ever take that away. Please do not let the negative feelings have any place in your heart. You went through some difficult times. You suffered because others thought they were God's hand in your life. You survived it. Take heart and be strong. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Dear Beyondfear, That is a very interesting explanstion of your dreams' progression. I had pretty much the same expererience. I have also had the dreams regress when a new difficult situation comes up in my life. I have another community dream where I have to confront the "bad guy" assertively again so I can overcome my fear or depression resulting from the present circumstance I am faceing. It seems my basis for coping and dealing with problems and conflict directly come from the difficult time I had after leaving the community and having to redefine my life. Does this make any sense at all? It just made me think of having recovered somewhat from the controll and conditioning of living there for so long, that every thing now is still affected by how I mangaed to get my life jumpstarted again. And is there anything I can do to help me deal with difficulties rather than slip into the programing, rebooting if you will, of my new life outside the community. Can anyone put this in better english or am I just rambling. | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
Hi Exmonk, I'm not sure if I understand fully what you're saying - but let me take a stab. Are you saying that in the same way that you were conditioned to be fearful in the community, you are also conditioned to respond to new situations in your life in the same way that you learned to cope after you left? If that's what you're saying, then I would say that I do the same thing - but I see it as a positive. I now have so many tools and so much proof that my methods of coping really worked. But then again, maybe what you're saying is that you fall back into the old programmed ways of the community when you meet a new situation that sparks fear and uncertainty. I do that, too, but I'm more easily able to pull myself out of the fear now that I know that I'm a good person, that there's nothing really to be afraid of. My dreams often reflect this fear, but it really doesn't bother me. I figure if I'm working out my fear and guilt during my sleep that it's much more productive and far less work than having to deal with it when I'm awake! I hope I've understood what you're saying. If not, drop a line again. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Beyondfear, I am so confused now that I am beyondunderstanding. "yeah" whatever you said. I think I get it but it is so confusing to express it. Anyway I get what you are saying and yes that is true...I think. I think I blew a fuse in my brain. Whatever, I can't remember what I was saying in the first place. But thanks for trying to understand. God I wish I was smarter! My problem is that I start to wonder and anylize my dreams and get agitated that I am not over it yet. Good talking with you. Take care. | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Dear exmonk, I should probably tell you that phrases such as "blood bought child of god" send me right through the roof. I can appreciate very much what you are trying to say, but just can't handle the language. no hard feelings whatsoever..... | ||
| awakening New member Username: awakening Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.62.49.15 |
I’m sorry if I offended anyone by speaking about the situation at the CofJ in terms of spiritual warfare. It may be a generational thing. When I joined years before, we were battling Principalities and Powers all over the place (P’s & P’s, we called them). I have only love in my heart for its members. I have left family there, and many of the best friends anyone could ever ask for, including Mother Betty. I love them. So does God. My point was, that the members are not responsible for the dark things still happening there. To explain what is responsible, I would have to sound like a Frank Peretti novel. Suffice it to say that this open forum, of frank and honest sharing that anyone can read, is the best possible antidote. It is God’s solution. The truth will come out, and none of the ones we love will be hurt. Keep going. When I left the CofJ, it was with great fear and profound misgiving. All I knew was that God was calling me out of there. I was, in fact, staking my life on that. Was it God? Or was it just my ego calling me out? I prayed for the Gameliel Principle to kick in quickly: if my leaving was of Him, He would favor me. If it was not of Him, then let me crash and burn - fast. Since I’ve left, He has done nothing but favor me. I have new friends now –not as close, not as dear, but getting there. And I’m now having more fun serving Him, than I’ve ever had in my life. After I left, I was hit by waves of oppression. False guilt. Condemnation. I clung to Galatians 5:1 “For freedom Christ has set you free; stand fast, therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.” And I prayed – old-fashioned Pentecostal prayers, rebuking the devil and pleading the Blood of Jesus. Gradually the oppression lessened. It still comes around, from time to time (like when I contemplated posting my first response here), but I prayed it away. I left, because I could no longer tolerate group coercion (“light groups”), even when they weren’t surprise parties for my benefit. The foundational principle of the CofJ is that the individual cannot be trusted to discern God’s will for himself, because it could be informed by his will or ego. He had to trust the group’s discernment of God’s will for him, over his own. If I’d stayed, I would soon have had to renounce my ability to hear God. | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Awakening, OK, this I can take. thanks for resubmitting. Your last posting, although perhaps on target, gave me the willies! scary stuff. If you don't mind, may I ask a question? How do you resolve for yourself spritually what you heard from God while you were inside that was in support of the place, the people,the events......surely, you felt that was as real then as you feel this is real to you now. This is a major hang up for me, and is the cause of my abandoning my faith. That's just it. It felt so real then to me. It came in bits and starts, intermingled with my wrestling and general discontent. But when it was there (God, I mean), when I felt that awesome power, it was just that - awesome. How could God be directing this group in such a personal way (you know what I mean, right?)if there was so much hurt, misuse of power, coercion, and general unChristian-like behavior. One can only assume that it was NOT God, or at least not in the intimate way we were lead to believe. So how do you know you're not in the same "play" but just in a different act, with different setting, characters, music? Does God sound different now? Did he apologize for leading you astray? Did He change his mind? Plese don't think I'm trying to be flip. please don't. I just don't get it. Terms like "god's will" and "I think I'm SUPPOSED to do such and such" etc etc have no meaning to me anymore. If anything I think they are a slap in God's face...higher power usage for lowly earthling gain. The big red flag at the CJ for me was when people began to be aggresively recruited for a certain musical group. A number of people that I know of declined, only to be revisited once again, some a third time, and told to "pray again". That was it for me. This infers that there are a few who hear. They encourage us to pray in order to hear, but if we come up with the wrong answer, the shoe drops, and we must put aside what is in our "sin nature" and form up in line, thus assuring us a place in eternal life. If the premise of that is that our sin nature kept us from hearing correctly, what about theirs?? We all know very alarming stories of skeletons rattling about in many a CJ leaders closet. So what of it? Why did we trust as much as we did? Why did God let His good name be fouled so? Is it that we WANT there to be someone who has all the answers? How reassuring to know that you are on the right team! No more decisions! No more sleepless nights! Life is black and white. End of story. Maybe cults (or whatever word is more palatable) exist because we want them to. In any case, one thing I've learned is that life is a undulating palette of gray, ever-changing, and fluid. At times there is a spot of pure white, but it moves quickly and is replaced in turn with darkest ebony. One is not better or worse, but all create the picture. Choosing is the thing. Carefully weighing the options, balancing the tones to create a picture for my own family that is pleasing. This is where I live - in these murky wonderful waters of freedom. I hope God likes grey too. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 2345 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.182.245 |
God loves grey. Where there is grey there is God. Where there is God there is hope. Where there is hope there is life. In this world, grey is good! | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
Hi, Just wanted to write that I haven't been writing because of being "spooked", takes a little bit more than that Awakening. Yeah, you used some language that rubs me wrong, but I see where you're going and everyone's free to say what they want! It's just been a LOT to digest in a relatively short amount of time. I've spent the last year pretty much in a daze just trying to figure out the particulars of life. Having never had to before, it's a major undertaking. Plus the last few weeks prior to leaving were awful. Now I'm 'awakening' and trying to participate fully in my life. It just takes a lot of time and patience. Searchlight, I've been reading your posts with a great deal of interest as I struggle with many of the same questions. As far as God goes, personally for me I didn't even know WHAT i'd think or feel when I left. So far, inately I know I believe in a God - whether it's the Jewish God or the Christian God or whoever, I don't know. But I know, in my gut I do. I don't understand him at all. However I've been told by a lot of different people, even non-religious people that since God gave free-will that means it gives people the choice to do tons of bad things on God's behalf. I have a lot of beefs with God, and I often let him know about them. But even if I said I don't believe in him, in my gut I do. I know as a very small child, pre-CJ I had a vivid dream about Jesus and still remember it. There was nothing religious about the dream. It was a sense of love, acceptance, teaching, spending time together. Nothing 'preachy' or 'religious'. That is my view of God. Since leaving the community I went to church at first, but I can't take the services. I have panic attacks (literally). Plus the churches in my area all seem happy-clappy and that just makes me crazy!! I'm convinced God must like gray too, because man 99.9% of life is gray, it seems. As far as trusting, etc. I think we can't discount the power of group mentality. Taking it out of the realm of religion, look at the Jews. How many times have people said why didn't they fight back? There were so many of them, more than the soldiers, even. But if you had people pointing guns at you in what had been a relatively civilized society, wouldn't you think the worst that could happen would be that you're being taken to a POW camp? Your mind can't even conceive of the concentration camp because it's so far removed from the world as you know it. That's an exaggerated example. But with a group, there's fear generated, esp. when people are made examples of. There's the laying low not to garner attention. There's all sorts of things. And yes, I do think we WANT someone to have all the answers. Wouldn't that be nice? There are also people that are EXTREMELY good at convincing you that they do have all the answers. Anyhow, I'm getting way beyond what I came on to say. Just wanted to let you know I'm here just been taking a breather. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Searchlight, Thankyou for your honesty. I know I can sound oldschool and my nature is to preach. I appreciate your feedback as I think it helps keep me balanced. No offense taken. Awakening, your comments on group coercian are true. I would like to add that with the intimidation and constant hammering on our "sin natures" as they said (sorry Searchlight), we began to question our own relationship with God and begin to beleive we could hear God best through what we were told by the leaders. What they said had to be Gods will unquestionably. Blind obedience was the order of the day. Would everyone agree that blind obedience to a human personality is cult-like. Absolute power corrupts. (is this ok SL?) The concept of Grey is new to me. It sounds good. I must say I am learning and seeing a lot of interesting ideas here. | ||
| laetamini New member Username: laetamini Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
Yeah, but just remember there were a lot of dire consequences from disobedience in the 'early days' that more or less convinced people that blind obedience was the way to go . . . And there's just something about a secret group that I think breeds a strange power all it's own that doesn't make any sense looking at it from outside the group. | ||
| searchlight New member Username: searchlight Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.219.227 |
Of course, yes, fine, exmonk! no problem. I, like, laetamini, have had literal panic attacks (never knew what one was before) in churches that I try to attend, in movies where there is religious content etc....it's like the smallest thing just hits me in an unknown place....It was my mother who used to use the expression "blood bought child of jesus christ"...I haven't heard it in a long time and it brought back scary images of neglect, religious fervor where there should have been parental comfort and on and on...My husband is crabbing at me about being so sucked in by this discussion board, but it feels good to get real time feedback in a non-hierarchial setting. thanks everyone. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
One thing I learned outside the community is Mutual respect. In the monastic side of things in the community, your feelings, dignity and reputation were open season for anyone who wanted to "speak" to you about where you were "off". Sorry for causeing you a problem SL | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 396 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.166.210 |
hey exmonk, I never went to therapy either. I tried but couldnt find anyone that wasnt awed and perplexed but what I had to say, so it never lasted more than two visits. What I have been reading on this board has in a way been more theraputic than anything I've encountered so far. To see others who have the same internal conflicts and struggles, and how you have dealt with them...I just want to thank everyone for sharing your hope and compassion. Searchlight, I have struggled with the same issues you talk about in regards to God's will and praying and the like. I was actually really mad at god for a while, and wondered if i was really just 'bad seed' or punishment for my parents sins. What I can say is that this questioning process, although difficult, has led me to a place of ultimate peace and contentment. You have the perfect ability to find your own truth, and you will. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
I have to agree DT. This forum has validated my feelings, emotions and struggles from the time I left. Not to say I was always right but that, hey, everyone had pretty much the same stuggles and here we are trying to care and help each other through it and also shed light on the truth of what took place. It is overwhelming and liberating. I feel that when residents at the community become aware of this forum, there will be a violent stirring of the pot if you will. | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
Wow, do I know what you mean, Searchlight and laetamini, about panic attacks! I've had them since I was ten years old, and for over thirteen years I honestly thought they were just guilt. It wasn't until after I left the community that I realized something wasn't right. I'd be sitting in my room at night, working on some simple project, and panic would grip me like a noose - you know, the tight chest, the shortness of breath, the pounding heartbeat. I finally said something to my therapist, and she told me that what I was experiencing was an anxiety attack. I had no idea! As for church, I was going to a few different churches when I first left, and after awhile I thought that if I had to sit there and make one more prayer of confessions ("we acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness" - oh, god) I would stand up in the middle of the service and just scream. What have I ever done, I wanted to shriek. I realized that going to church was making me more upset than it was helping. So, that was the end of that, much to my family's horror and utter disbelief. I have to say that I went through a real grieving period, though. When I began to let go of the image of God that I had held on to for so long - that he would make my life better if I just begged him hard enough, that I displeased him with all my shallow desires, that there was only one way for me to follow him - I was really left without the mooring, however unreliable it had become, that I had grown so accustomed to clinging to. I still sometimes feel a sadness at having let go of that image of God. But then I remember that it was only when I really began to advocate for myself, when I started to recognize that I had some power to make my life into what I wanted, did I begin to see positive change. I still believe in God - I just have no idea who or what he/she/it is. All I can hold on to is the idea of a benevolent force that I can open myself up to when I feel like things are bigger than I can handle. Which happens fairly often, I admit. | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
Part II of my too-long post . . . I guess the other thing I wanted to say in response to the discussion about whether the community is a cult, and whether God led people astray, etc. is this: I've done a LOT of reading and thinking about this issue, and I've come to the conclusion that the community is just a smaller version of some of the larger problems in our world. Laetamini mentioned the example of the Jews - well, think about Hitler. Why did he end up with so much power? Because people were so hungry for a leader, so hungry to be built back up after the humilations of WWI - and Hitler offered them everything they wanted to hear. We're strong, we're invincible, we are a dignified, special race - that's what he told them. I've gone back and forth on the issue of calling the community a cult - and now I just say that it has some cult-like qualities. We all know that MB has absolute power, and we all know that power corrupts. So, when someone mentioned earlier about illegal doings on the part of the prioress, I was not at all surprised. But really, I don't think the definition of whether the community is a cult or whether it has cult-like qualities is even helpful in the big picture. The important thing to realize is that what's going on at the community has been going on since the dawn of civilization. Some people are gifted with charisma, some with the gift of persuasion, and many who have these gifts find themselves in positions of power they hadn't necessarily anticipated. On the other side of this group are those who are hungry for reassurance, for guidance, for someone who will provide the answers. You put these two groups together and you get a place like the community. It's really about human nature, not about religion or cults or god or satan. I have so much to say, but I understand what you mean, laetamini, about feeling overwhelmed. I almost feel like I'm crazy to be sticking my head into this whole discussion since I have so much else going on in my life. But I also see how much the family I grew up with - you, here on this board - is struggling, is trying to make sense of our pasts. And because I've been gone longer and have had a chance to work through some of the painful memories and effects and have had lots of time to think about everything here you've all discussed, I want to share my thoughts with you, to encourage you. I, too, hate any mention of community lingo, which is why I posted such a strong message yesterday. Okay, speaking of panic attacks, I think this is all I can handle for tonight. In the meantime, I send each of you strength and peace and wisdom. It will come, perhaps more slowly than we would like, but nevertheless I know you will find what you're looking for. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
I have been looking at a lot of posts on other cults. Can someone say Franklin or other tell me what they think the similarities or how the C of J stacks up the other cults on the discussion board? | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 404 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.174.226 |
Hey exmonk, I have been reading the Twelve Tribes threads and have seen alot of similarities between them and Coj. I also have visited a couple of the tribes at different occasions and found striking similarities in thier lifestyles. I attended a Friday night dinner with them and felt like I suddenly been transported back to the undercroft!!! | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
DT Where can you find a listing of their communities? I am curious. Not to join but to research. Any other places like that you have been to? | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 405 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.174.226 |
I know for a fact they are in Hyannis. they have a cafe i like to call the hobbit hole, but its called the common ground. http://www.twelvetribes.com/ This is thier home site and has a list of all locations. They seem like wonderful people, just like coj. I had some great conversations with them. But then I read the literature. and when visiting I saw a familiar look in the eyes of the children, I dont know how to explain it, but it made me very sad. I just want to say to those who are discussing the horror stories of bad things who happen to those who leave, anything bad thats happened in my life has been a result of choices I have made, generally because I was holding onto fear and resentment. In spite of how much I have continuously self-sabatoged, there has been an amazing grace present in my life which has carried me through events which you might not think possible. If anything, I believe we are an especially blessed generation. The hardships we have endured have made us resilient survivors. | ||
| exmonk New member Username: exmonk Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Thanx DT You have obviously done your research. There a location in Ashville NC and in Georgia. If my travels take me near them I may stop by for interogations, oops, I mean a chat of sorts-I am so bad. | ||
| mandm336 New member Username: mandm336 Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Hey everyone, another new member and ex-CJ kid. I have read alot of the posts and there is alot going on here which is great! I liked BF's post especially: "But anyone who has spent any amount of time there will tell you that she has an incredible work ethic, that she is trained in music to a degree hardly possible without completing years at a prestigious music school. She will tell you that she is compassionate, that she appreciates beauty, that she remembers the moments of genuine laughter along with the moments of genuine terror or grief." This is so true!! Ever since leaving 6 years ago there is still an aura of goodness that does surround us. It is was of the good things from the CJ that was given to us. Please don't ever forget that. I agree with Laetimini about the fact that the "spiritual language" that was being tossed around was a little bit to familiar and threatening. We have always been told those exact things about the "outside" world. But I see that those who used that language have apologized which earns them my greatest respect. Hey - ex-monk - I also have never been to therapy and that has worked well for me. For some reason I was able to just talk about my story to enough kind and listening people that I think it was enough to let the wound heal. I too have had dreams about the CJ, why wouldn't we?? Most of us have lived the majority of our lives there. The subconscious is trying to work it all out and it will draw on that which you have the most experience with. My dreams started out as nightmares where I was being held against my will and couldn't leave, my car keys where hidden etc. and they have progressed over 6 years to now if I dream I am at the CJ, I am openely speaking out about what I see as wrong and am activly leaving. Yeah DT - I am so proud of you! You are absolutely correct when you say we are a blessed generation. We have so much to say and give this world. While the CJ was destructive in so many ways, we have all left for very real and specific reasons. Even if it is just to live a normal (what is normal) life. I can not tell you how many people I meet who just smile at me for no reason, or who come up to me and talk to me openly about themselves. We have become stronger and will continue to become stronger. Sorry, I don't want to "preach" or whatever. Anyway - it is great to read all your posts!! | ||
| ramblin_man New member Username: ramblin_man Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.124.134.31 |
Hi all - I've been wanting to write something for several days, but a.) haven't had time b.)can't figure out where to post because there are so many threads now and some no longer have anything to do w/ the heading and c.) not really sure what I want to say. I guess I feel very mixed about this whole process (the board). It is at once exhilirating and depressing. Finding other "survivors" who share the same experiences, fears, guilts etc. is a huge relief - like I've been in a foreign country and have just stumbled on a group of english-speaking tourists. However, hearing all the traumas and "sordid" details (as someone put it) depresses me. I'm not sure if it's denial and therefore I should press on and turn every rock over or if it's a healthy instinct to look forward and not dwell on a past that we all agree (including MB - though it gets excused as the "founding" period) was whacked. For me, what's more frightening than any hypocrisy and/or dishonesty from C&J is the stuff that's happening today. Laetamini, your description of your departure is frightening. The rule says "may" include the list they give not "must" include. Your reason of distance and perspective is perfectly valid. In fact, I've heard of several people on LOA's for those very reasons. To the extent you were forced into terminating your membership is very troubling. You are definitely right about how arbitrary everything is. I've heard of people who are given 5 years and others only 1. And then still others who aren't even given a chance. I guess what I'm saying here is that because I still have loved ones there, I'm more interested in if the CoJ is changing and improving or if it's sliding back to the days we know were bad. And I'm interested in hearing how others have managed to figure out how to live a productive, peaceful, content life after years of conditioning that if you "want" it, it must not be God's will. I can't shake this sense that the only path to heaven is to be in a job I don't even like, playing an instrument I don't like in a band I REALLY don't like, stressed out of my mind w/ rehearsals, work crews, mtgs etc. to the point I'm completely abandoning my kids. Doesn't really sound like the way to heaven when you say it out loud, but anything short of that makes me feel like I'm lazy and copping out. I realize this is all a bit random and scattered, but I guess that's where I'm at... | ||
| laetamini Junior Member Username: laetamini Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.175.213 |
Thanks, Ramblin-man: I've been 'quiet' for many of the same reasons. I'm unsure of what, if anything, to say anymore on these threads. And totally agree about what is the topic at hand!! What is being an ostrich, and what is just gut-instinct of even knowing all the 'gory truths' isn't really going to help me with my life at this point. I mean yeah, truth is good. But when is it just sort of a guilty pleasure in airing a bunch of true garbage. On one hand, there's definite validation in airing fears that keep one bound in a fear-filled life, on the other airing awful stuff (true as it may be) does fill the air with awful emotions that might not be doing anything to clarify the present moment. I don't want to be an ostrich, but neither to I want or need to get caught up with all the crap in the past. I want to clear myself -- body, soul, mind, of conditioning. And I must add that much of the conditioning I did to myself. Truthfully, I'm not sure I could have done anything differently, yet the fact remains much of the destructive patterns I've lived my life by were self-induced. It was what I perceived as the only way to survive. I secretly envied the rebels. But the times I would try to 'be a rebel' I'd get it, and I think really the reason I 'got it' was because it wasn't me - everything was trying to be something other than me. Bottom line, the message I got from an extremely young age is that there was something intrinsicly wrong with me. I never knew what it was, but from a very early age I was on many disciplines because there was something very unaccepatable and wrong with me. I think that was wrong, and not self-induced. I'm feeling random & scattered myself. From reading everything, I think we're at very different places (understandably) and wanting different things from the posts. Frankly I really don't care about all the sordid details of the past. I did hear many of these things, altho somewhat censored. I still find myself wondering, can God (if you believe in a God which I do) who is supposedly all-powerful still use the community in spite of all the crap? I mean, what else does he have to work with except us-uns. Who really is right? I have heard from some other folks who use Christian terms about biblical, etc. An expert in the "cult field" told me Gregorian chant was un-biblical and dangerous. I mean, that's like telling me breathing is a dangerous act, and unbiblical to boot. At this point I feel like who cares?!? And what really constitutes an expert in religion? You can find someone to back basically any theory. I don't want to stay chained to the past. What is the way to break the chains? Rehearse all the evils? Or face fears head on and let them go? I want to step into the future unfettered by fear, by doubt, by self-loathing. What's the best way to go about this? I really don't know. I do know in spite of many evils and bad that may have been done in the name of God by people living & dead at the community, underneath that, I still feel love for many, and am sincerly hoping that the community can find some way to cleanse the bad and move on with the good. I wonder if it's possible for any religious group to be wholly good? I mean heck we're all human, religious or not, and human means both bad and good. The thing that I wish most for the CJ is that things stop closing inward and going towards the past....Fr. Hal preached a sermon about the danger of CJ members feeling spiritually superior....I wish they would remember that sermon. It made me angry at the time, bcs I thought with all the pain we went thru, shouldn't we get some extra brownie points in the heavenly point book? But the more I thought about it, the more I saw the wisdom of what he said. I think I'll step-off my soap box, now, but I'm finding this all very painful! | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 441 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi everyone, I havent know quite what to say lately either, for some of the above reasons. However, I think what is being posted here is so important, even if some of us dont need it anymore at some point, for anyone who is coming out or struggling to see recorded evidence that we share the same experiences and know they arent alone. I do not want to wallow in the past, however we need to air the baggage. My mother once said to me, " I know some horrible things happened to you, but cant you just forget it? No wants to air thier dirty laundry". You know, that really hurt. I was subjected to child abuse and as a result I am now considered "dirty laundry"? I know my mother was probobly blamed alot for my rebellion, and told that I was gods punishment for her rebellion. I always was punished for rebelling, but I reached a point where I figured I had all freedom taken away even when I wasnt being punished, so what was really the big difference anyways, you know? I mean, I remember being told I was on discipline and saying "oooo, what does that mean, your going to make me go to church more or less? Or am I going to have to work all the time? How is that any different from how life is now? I dont really know what to say, but I think any group or organization which is set up in a way that causes children to suffer, weather intentional or not, has serious problems. Sorry to rant like this, maybe I just needed get some of this off my chest. | ||
| pandersen New member Username: pandersen Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.70.130.120 |
I fully understand that it would be hard for some of you to hear the gory details of some of what I have shared here. I'm sorry if that offended some or was troubling. It wasn't meant to offend. I guess we're all at different places in working through everything we experienced. Since the CoJ hasn't changed in over 30 years, I think it is unlikely to do so. The whole system is "demonic" at some level, for want of a better word. The more public light and attention can be thrown at it, the better. Not out of vengefulness, but for the health and safety of those still involved. Child abuse is a so heinous crime. Even Jesus address it is the Gospels, saying "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Many of you are still too wounded to even think of going there, but for others it may be a "calling." Heidi was absolutely terrified of speaking out against them, but she did so out of a sense of wanting possibly to prevent others from entering the decade-long Hell she endured. It's not everybody's thing, but for those who can, it's a just cause. Thanks to everyone for contributing to these threads and for sharing what you can. It takes courage to make yourself vulnerable like this. And by the way, for anyone who would ever like to speak in person to me or Charlene, for what it's worth, we're in the phone directory. | ||
| pandersen New member Username: pandersen Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.70.130.120 |
I. e. look in URL: 411.ca Peter Andersen, White Rock BC | ||
| bluesman New member Username: bluesman Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.238 |
The "dirty laundry"/"gory details" thread is indeed an important one. I believe that many of us have a reluctance to hear all of the truth. And we want to hold on to all the good things that we remember. I think there are two problems with this. First, it presupposes that there's a predominance of bad things said about the CJ. I actually think it's the opposite. The relentless PR activity (think choir, band, etc.) weighs the scales very heavily. Secondly, I find the CJ, for a community that preaches "speaking the truth", to be highly allergic to the truth, especially the specific history that contradicts their public presentation. And I'm sorry, sweeping it under the rug as "necessary for the founding period" is neither true nor historically accurate. Any group that really wants to change will welcome freely any and all examination of the "sins" of the past. Stonewalling, justifying, rug-sweeping are all indicators of something else. And when the specific history is something as heinous as child abuse... Well, it makes you wonder, doesn't it? I don't mean to be negative or gloomy. But I have seen so many opportunities to address the sins/crimes of the past, in both communities pass unaddressed. After all these years, the only conclusion I can draw is that those in power just want to stay in power. I learned to look at it all without any religious reference point. Then it became very clear that it's really just about power and keeping it. Not to blame the many people of good will and intention in either community. They are the "animals" in Animal Farm, working to exhaustion for the values they believe in, while those in power change the rules to suit themselves and live off the labor of the "animals". I highly recommend George Orwell's book for a good understanding of what happened (and is still happening). | ||
| pandersen New member Username: pandersen Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.70.130.120 |
Amen to that! Orwell's 1984 has lots of Community-applicable material as well. One of the typical cult dynamics is that people who leave the cult after years or decades of abuse are still looking for the "positive," and saying how they help people... I went through that after leaving the Sisterhood of Mary. In part it has to do with wanting to justify to oneself how you could waste so many years obeying such total idiots. If you remember the ending to "1984," the protagonist Winston Smith was finally won over by Big Brother, and then Big Brother has him assassinated. He dies "loving Big Brother." One of the unfortunate processes when people leave the Community is that is takes so long to heal emotionally, that by the time people are really ripping angry at what happened to them and to their loved ones, and ready to take action, the statute of limitations for legal action has expired. (This was true in Heidi's case.) As I understand it, there is no statute of limitations on child abuse, which is why I hope and pray that many of you will be given the strength and grace one day to stand as one and do what you can to bring the Beast to its knees. Peter Andersen | ||
| lovinglunch New member Username: lovinglunch Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 63.231.13.205 |
I was born and grew up at the Community of Jesus, left when i was brave enough in my late teens. Re-acclimation’s been a beech, but i'm grateful for the freedom. The 80s were the years I'm most interested in. Some memories not good: "light" sessions with violent faces, not living with my parents after age 8, grueling disciplines. Some memories warm: like sunset walks on the flats, undercroft feasts, sunday afternoon basketball, gorgeous music. Some funny too: like having to read Latin psalms to the goat kids obliviously chewing cud in the little barn. haha. But underlying is a more vague, sinister feeling. Was the Community was a calculated get-rich-quick plan for Cay and Judy - psychologically savvy criminals - who created a community where they could legally brainwash folk into forking over most all assets? If so, did the Bills (husbands) have fingers in that pie? Or, no, maybe the Mothers were suffering terribly themselves, and were genuine megalomaniacal mentally ill types, running what they believed was a bonafide mission for Jesus? Like their successor that I knew much better, Mother Betty, all three Matriarchs had an astounding charisma, worth investigation. As i try to unpack and understand my childhood, this chat forum is a blessing. I've been waiting for something like this. I'm glad that mostly we're not here to whine, too, as easy as that might be. (Panderson: thanks for your down to earth candor and perspective--that article you ref. - Sisters of Mary from Finland called "When Walls Fall" - sounds like a must read.) BUT--- I’d like to ask specifically if there is anyone who has info from the early and mid 80's especially, of any *sexual* child abuse where i grew up. So often cults with twisted power structures have issues in this dept, yet it does seem that the community was clean is this regard? Obviously there was alot of mental and physical abuse. Obviously there was an overall eerieness to the Rock Harbor Manor, but again, I'm asking specifically about sexual abuse here, because me and my therapist are curious.... Any info greatly appreciated, either way. Thanks for starting this forum dream_truth! (Message edited by lovinglunch on May 22, 2006) | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 474 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
lovinglunch, how do i get in touch with you? | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 475 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
lovinglunch, i dont know if you saw my post bcause it ended up in between yours, i would be interested in talking to you...have you seen the link to the yahoo group? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/excoj/ | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
All I'm going to say is that no, the community was not clean when it came to sexual abuse. Not at all. I didn't experience sexual abuse first hand, but I know that it went on. In fact, I know several people who are survivors. There are probably others that I don't know about. | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
I was rushing when I posted here earlier, but I wanted to respond to lovinglunch's post (what a great name, by the way - you made me laugh!). I've done a lot of reading and thinking and talking with people who've left, and I've come to the conclusion that just like everything else in life, the mothers' years of power weren't black and white. I really don't think they started off as power-hungry, money grubbing opportunists. My sense, based on many conversations with those who were there in the early days, is that they started off with a genuine desire to serve God. Many of us know that Judy was diagnosed many years later with bi-polar disorder, and I'm sure that her illness contributed to the things that went on at the community. My theory is that Cay and Judy suddenly found themselves surrounded by people who responded to their charismatic teachings and that, true to human nature, they pleasantly surprised that others responded with such energy and devotion. (Remember, people are given power by others. It takes two sides to create a place like the community.) And then my sense is that things began to spin out of control, slowly at first, and then faster and with greater fury, because people around Cay and Judy allowed themselves to become convinced that these women were God incarnate. I know it's maybe easier to dismiss them as either greedy or insane, but I think there's a lot more gray to the matter than we'd like to admit. I do not mean in any way to excuse the horrific abuse that they inflicted on so many. I just don't think it's a simple matter, that's all. | ||
| searchlight Junior Member Username: searchlight Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.193.7 |
Hi beyondfear, Just wanted to add one thing...A classic symptom of Bipolar I disorder is hyper-sexual behaviour. Mother Judy was no doubt ill for many years before her diagnosis, which would explain her extramarital affairs with Cay, the sister from Darmstadt that Peter mentioned, etc etc....Other symptoms are extreme grandiosity and feeling you have special powers. In a state of full blown mania, she would have fully believed in what she was doing. It would not have been for the purposes of greed, power etc, but literally a mission from God. There is something very powerful about someone who is that convinced of their own worth, their own mission. People WANT to follow someone like that. Beyondfear said it perfectly. The power has to be given, and it was, by the bucket. If we strip everything away, isn't it painfully obvious that MJ was nothing more than a very, very ill, delusional woman?? To look this reality in the face should relieve us of all guilt and fear - | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 505 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
That is very interesting searchlight. So do you think it is possible that they could have also justified the sexual abuse of a child, believing they were somehow 'cleansing' the sins which they believed had been passed to it from its mother? | ||
| searchlight Junior Member Username: searchlight Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.193.7 |
Dear DT, I am certainly not an expert, although I know a few. Maybe I'll get in touch with them and ask their opinion. In any case, I am convinced that MJ was VERY ill. In this area it is very easy for me to see. Anything she said or did would be influenced by that. I do know that one of the hardest things about bipolar disorder is that you are unable to "see yourelf". You must rely on weekly or monthly therapy sessions to get a reading on your state. This is why bipolar must be treated by medication and therapy. Without this set of eyes to give her feedback, MJ would have gone largely unchecked. Throw religion into the mix and it was a destructive combination. Many wonderful, charismatic, artistic people suffer from this disorder, which often results in broken relationships/suicide etc.....Please don't take my word for all this....I am not a professional. This is only what I understand to be true. That being said, if people who are manic believe they are a green martian from Mars, then why couldn't MJ have felt she was cleansing you through whatever means? | ||
| uncle_bens_way New member Username: uncle_bens_way Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 63.231.13.205 |
i grew up there. does anyone else really remember and miss the intense relationships we had with other people at that place? where can we find people like that, except without the verbal abuse? then when we find them, how can we ever trust them? i hate the victim mentality but the play it cool denial is just dumb: the place was cultish. i think it's great that there's a message board set up here! wow. can't wait to read through all this. we should have an annual weenie roast in some central location. we could call it The Jonathan Poodle Memorial Roast. if you had the dough, this place looks like it would be helpfull: http://wellspringretreat.org/ and this link is interesting if a little depressing. http://asca.org.au/childabuse/ca_definitions.html (Message edited by admin on May 26, 2006) | ||
| questiongrrl New member Username: questiongrrl Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.230.89.19 |
uncle bens way! sooo good to see you. i can't stop laughing at your name and also the 'jonathan poodle' reference. speaking of missing realtionships, if you are looking to re-connect with some of your old friends & acquaintances please come to the yahoo site. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/excoj/ it's a members only site, which makes it much easier to share thoughts/info/etc. hope to see you there! p.s. wellspring tries to offer funding/scholarship for their services when they can. | ||
| beyondfear New member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.63.119.152 |
Uncle Ben's Way - welcome! So glad you're here. Big belly laugh from me at the Jonathan Poodle Memorial Roast. I'd forgotten all about the little bugger. Come on over to yahoo and join the party, friend. | ||
| blindcomposure New member Username: blindcomposure Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.5.25.222 |
Well, I'm new to both this post and life "outside the CofJ." Up until Nov of 04 I lived there full-time. And when I say full-time, I mean that was all I knew. I homeschooled from 8-12 grade which presented problems in and of itself. My story is fairly complicated and I really don't feel the inclination to tell all right here, but up until about 6 months ago, I was VERY involved there. Since then, the phone calls coming from there have dropped off almost entirely. Emails are VERY scarce. I don't really know what to say about that place. To hear things like how it has a "satanic grip" over people... just seems asinine. Some of the things I have seen and done there myself... there's no WAY that place is "satanic". I'm a musician. Through and through. And from a MUSICAL standpoint, no where else even comes CLOSE. At the age of 17, I performed a very technically and emotionally challenging piece, having NO background in soloistic repertoire. In the so-called real world, that would NEVER happen. There are a lot of things that I am greatful to that place for. God does work through those people. I have issues, however, that I still am working through and will be for a while. Issues such as independence, living without guilt, and being free to enjoy my OWN life without feeling like I owe someone else. I'm now 20, I have a girlfriend and soon-to-be fiance who is in now way related to there and I am HAPPY. I'm actually happy about it for the first time in my life. I feel at ease with life. For the most part. I've added my little request to join the yahoo group. I'd really like to know who some of you all are, in case I know you. I really don't care so I'll put my own name up. I'm Andrew Haig, son of Peter and Christy, grandson of Mary and Al, the founders of GCC. I know a lot about the history of both places too. A lot more than most do. Mostly cause I asked questions as I started getting dissatisfied with my life. If you want to know my story, I'll do my best to write it down, but from the people I've talked to from the "outside" it's pretty unique. I love you all. Keep an open mind. Andy | ||
| laetamini Junior Member Username: laetamini Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 65.35.173.30 |
Hey Andy Welcome to the site....There's just one thing I'd love for you to factor into your thoughts....YOU ARE INCREDIBLY LUCKY TO ONLY BE 20. I hear where you're coming from, believe me, I said some of the same things about the CJ & those still there. HOWEVER you also weren't born and didn't experience first-hand a lot of the 'old-day' experiences. Yeah some of the posts written on here might sound pretty lame....but try to keep an open mind, too, ok? I can ASSURE you that the community/gcc most of us grew up in/experienced was a VASTLY different community than the one you did. Again, from the music, fine arts point and some other subjects, I think that no one here would argue with you about your points.... Not surprised that the phone calls & e-mails have started waning....that's how things work, unfortunately....they may pick up again for no explained reason, too. One never knows. (Message edited by laetamini on May 29, 2006) | ||
| searchlight Member Username: searchlight Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.253.192 |
Hi Andy, I think it is very normal to feel somewhat conflicted in your feelings about the CJ. There are many, many wonderful people there! Your parents are definitely among them. The "satanic" references can seem a little harsh, I agree. Calling anything Satanic just makes me think of sacrificing animals and drinking their blood! Different people have different religious experiences and different ways of describing things. Let's just agree to let them express their thoughts in whatever way they can. I know it's hard. Maybe freaky is more accurate! This whole forum is a big pill to swallow, but some have found release here from fear and guilt, so I believe it to be worthwhile. cheers. | ||
| blindcomposure New member Username: blindcomposure Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.5.25.222 |
It's still difficult in some ways to talk about how I "left" because I really didn't get up and leave. I enlisted in the Marine Corps and have been having to deal with a transition into a real world that is a lot different than the "regular" real world. Especially one where there's NO one with my background. I dunno. It's just different. And the longer I spend away from there the more I realize I don't want to ever go back. There are some things that I love about it, pretty much all of them involving music and the cooperation that goes into it, but some things I just can't deal with. I don't really know. Thanks all for the willing ear. I'll do my best to do the same. Andy | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 545 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
hey there blindcomposure, just wondering what some of the things are that you are finding you cant deal with? | ||
| blindcomposure New member Username: blindcomposure Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.170.40.165 |
My dad used to tell me things like, "If you stepped out of the grace of God, there's not telling what things could happen to you..." stuff where it felt like doom would come to you if you set even a toe out of line. That's how I've felt with a lot of things and it's been really damaging to my life as a whole person. I live in a box with defined boundaries. Mostly ones that are set by where my fear kicks in. And it's frustrating. The other thing is just general disbelief. I don't know how to rationalize some things. I mean, no one can discount some of the amazing things that have happened there... the amount of support it continues to garner from people EVERYWHERE... I just don't know what to make of some things. Thanks for all the help...I appreciate it. | ||
| searchlight Member Username: searchlight Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.253.192 |
Hi blindcomposure, I'm struggling with the exact issues. It's my biggest stuggle. What I've been trying to do lately is just LIVE and take my mind off the CJ, God's will, fear, guilt etc. I have to find out for myself what is real, what is good for me. That cannot be too far from the will of God! peace. | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 568 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Hi b.c. - Ok, here is my take on this and you can take it or leave it as you wish. I have found that what we believe is a very powerful force in our lives. When you have a group of people together who all believe the same thing, that belief becomes more real and more powerful. The same is true with fear. When I believe that something bad is going to happen to me, and my thoughts are full of that fear, it is more likely something bad will happen because that is where my focus lies. On the other side, if my focus is on good, and I can conquer the fear mindset, things get better. Fear is a very difficult issue to overcome, especially the way we were raised. I still have struggles in this area. The search for truth, which you have begun, is the best place to start. I hope this makes some sense. Fire me an email if you need to. | ||
| blindcomposure New member Username: blindcomposure Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.170.40.165 |
I'm gonna have to think on the whole fear thing for a little bit and try and figure out how to approach it... But another thing I realized today actually, is that I used to spend time feeling like a "problem" that was going to need "fixing". Because of the way I was brought up and the way my parents approach domestic issues, if you will, was to shoo me out of the room where the fight was going on. Consequently, I was left with the impression that grown-ups were never wrong. That at some point, there was a switch that was flipped and you became an adult all of a sudden and everything was better. Needless to say, as I grew up and realized this WASN'T the case... a lot of things went wrong. But the impression that I was somehow worse than everyone else and that my problems were so much worse... that I was "behind the power curve" so to speak in terms of growing up... I still just feel like going back there makes me a problem that needs to be fixed. Like, I'm gonna need to catch up to everyone else and blah, blah, blah. I dunno, just something I've been thinking about. I don't know if anyone else has felt that way. | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 575 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.171.11 |
Wow. You describe it so well. I know exactly what you are talking about. I always felt the same way there, and then even more when I was sent to Grenville. First of all, you ARE NOT a problem, and you dont need fixing! I dont even really know you although we share much of the same history, but I can tell from the way you write and express yourself that you are a very intelligent and talented young man. Maybe you have things you are going through, maybe you are learning and growing and questioning, these are good things and would never mean that you are a problem. You deserve to have the opportunity to explore and decide what you believe and want to do with your life, free from the pressures of what others want you to do. No one else knows God's will for you. You are the only one who can figure that out. Did you ever find that you were told to pray about something, but you knew what the answer to that prayer was expected to be, and if you didnt come back with that answer, you were told to keep praying? How we were raised wasn't normal. We did get exposure to some very advanced musical training and such, and that is lucky. We got to have an extended family of friends. But how we were taught to interact and relate socially was not based on a healthy foundation. You can disagree with me if you like, but thats how I see it. One thing I wish I had done when I had first left (I was only 17 and litterally just walked out into the harbor parking lot) was get some counseling. I am just doing it now, and had I done it sooner I think I could have saved myself a lot of trouble. | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
To Andy (AKA Blindcomposure)... Hi!! I know Mary Haig very well; I have family members at the community. Unfortunately, I am too afraid for their well-being to mention who I am at this time...be patient with me!! I just wanted to encourage you as you explore this website and the other Yahoo group; I pray every day for peace for all of you (and for me, since I worry about my family constantly). I will say, having visited CofJ a few times and observed how my family has changed since they moved there a few years ago, that what really worries me about them is how much their personalities have changed. We live far from Cape Cod and it is very difficult for us to get them to leave the community to visit or for us to come out there...they are constantly riddled with anxiety (that they are not doing "enough work" for the community) and physically exhausted. We are very sad to see them so vexed; they went to the community to find peace and get closer to God. I think this was achieved at first through their participation in retreats and CofJ outreach, but as time went on and they became members, they became so indoctrinated that any joy or awareness of God's love seems to have faded away. It's sad to see what's left...fear, anxiety, and lack of self-esteem... I think you are all brave individuals!!! Peace to all of us... Love Maxiez | ||
| laetamini Junior Member Username: laetamini Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 65.35.173.30 |
Maxiez32, Just wanted to let know that you've been on my mind & in my heart these past weeks. I haven't had too much time or emotional wherewithal for posting in the past few days, but wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of and praying for you & your family. Hang in there.... | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
Thanks for your words, Laetamini...I am thinking of and praying for you too in particular...that you would have peace and understanding (or should I say the peace that surpasses understanding)...you hang in there too!! Blessings, Maxiez | ||
| searchlight Member Username: searchlight Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.253.192 |
BC, I disagree with DT on one small point. You ARE a problem! We are ALL problems! The journey of life is negotiating each other's problems with compassion, tolerance, honesty and love. We learn over much time to value each other and love each other, not for what is alike, but for what is different. BUT news flash!!!!!!!....we do not need MB in order to do this!!!! I know what DT is saying though....There is a slot that many of us fit into there of "problem". I say, THANK GOD!! It is the only thing that saved us from a life of running to MB everytime we felt insecure, upset, unloved, misguided, unholy, etc etc etc..... In one breath she scolds us for not dealing with our problems on our own. A note is then "sent out" stating that she will not be receiving notes or counseling for one month. We all collectively gasp at the dinner table in each of our homes as the daily mail is read or opened. What will we do?! Oh no, I needed to ask her about a job change! I can't wait...I wanted to ask her to start dating a specific girl! I'm miserable in my marriage and I need her counsel right away! I'm receiving messages from God and need to talk to her....!!!!!!! I got a note from her out of the blue telling me that my current style of dressing is showing a dangerous spiritual problem! I need to ask her if my child can take karate lessons! I have cancer and she said it's my sin nature and I need to talk to her! and on and on and on.... Now, people, think for a minute. Do you or do you not remember this paniced feeling of needing her? Assuming you answered "yes", I ask you, does this sound healthy? How could we all have felt that we needed her so desperately if she had not encouraged it at all? If her goal had been for us to seek God so diligently, than why were we not allowed to move out in certain directions without her consent? Folks, let's face it. She wanted control over every portion of our lives, and then she made us feel guilty and ashamed for being addicted to her approval. Representative of Christ? I think not. | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1095 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
I chose not to be a problem, but part of the solution. It is all attitude. | ||
| bluesman New member Username: bluesman Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.238 |
searchlight's post is disturbing. I thought the CJ was moving away from all that micromanaging people's lives. I'm sorry to hear that it's so bad. Why would you need MB's permission for your child to take karate lessons? Sounds like classic building of codependent relationships: I need you to need me. As long as you're totally dependent on me for guidance and do what I say, you'll be showered with "love". If you start thinking for yourself and reaching conclusions I don't agree with, you risk God's disapproval. And if you decide to just live your own life, buh-bye! | ||
| laetamini Junior Member Username: laetamini Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 65.35.173.30 |
Bluewater2, Can you explain your post a little more clearly. I believe you're commenting on Searchlight's previous post, but I'm not following your point. Thanks and welcome to the discussion. | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 615 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.171.11 |
Yeah, I guess you're right searchlight, I always was a problem for THEM, and possibly I still am. But only because I vehmently disagree with the abuse which occurs within the organization. (Message edited by dream_truth on June 03, 2006) | ||
| bacchus New member Username: bacchus Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.106.103.64 |
Hey BC What you said about feeling like you were the problem is very important. What I have discovered is that we were all individually made to feel like we were the problem. When I left I carried this lie with me only to find out from others that I was not alone in so much of my self degradation. This was a big news flash for me, and helped me on my on going recovery. Take care pal...hang in there. | ||
| blindcomposure New member Username: blindcomposure Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.170.40.165 |
Thanks bacchus... I've been discovering that as well in a lot of places. I am really no better and no worse than anyone else. And the places where I felt trapped by "obligation" to the Community I feel free to explore and expand my own view of the world. The Community felt so very small and limiting while I was there, and to get free of there has allowed me to breathe more easily in a lot of places in my life. | ||
| usedtobethere New member Username: usedtobethere Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 209.47.31.7 |
Incredible how this all got started just with a question, here we all are with many more questions, actually getting some answers and clearing up many misconceptions . Thank you "dream_truth". |
