| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Why all the concern about NTCC? Are they spiritually abusive? Or a cult? The current members will say no. But the ex-members all emphatically agree that there is a need for concern. Let's look at some of the signs of the typical "abusive" church. And each can decide for themselves... | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Here is a list of questions you might want to consider asking yourself about your church group. From a book called Twisted Scriptures: In your group, do you see that… • Leadership is excessively esteemed? • Leaders are not accountable to members? • You are led to think that good solid teaching outside this group is rare? • The group wants you to give as much time as you possibly can to their activities? • There is a legalistic emphasis on external behaviors which results in loss of focus on Jesus? • Guilt is an important emotional lever for producing compliance and conformity? • There is a feeling that there isn’t any security outside the group? • “Confidentiality” is used to isolate members from each other? • There is control over channels of communication and information, and that some teachings and/or policies are kept secret? • Members need extensive accountability to other men to be led to Christian maturity? • Criticism, analytical thinking, free exchange of opinion, and an opportunity to verify facts are sometimes denied? • Individuality is perceived to be bad, conformity and uniformity as good? • You are to ignore your inner self and instead trust authority? • Gatherings are a matter of commitment; you’re not simply free to decide? • Attendance at all community gatherings usually takes precedence over visiting family and friends? • There are weddings in which the group is more involved than the couples’ own families? • “Something bad” might happen if you leave the group? • Often carrying out certain agreed-to actions becomes a sign of one’s commitment? • The group environment (shaped by legalism) breeds a critical, judgmental spirit? • There is sometimes concealment of, or coloration of, the truth about why members left or were asked to leave? • Leaders overwhelm newcomers with love, acceptance, and lots of attention at the onset? • Teachings use layers of truth, revealing existing policies a step at a time? • Members’ self-worth and hope for salvation are tied to staying in the group? • Healthy relationships (with friends who have left the group) are not to be continued after they have left? • Legitimate goals and dreams of members are often reshaped? • The prevailing attitude is that objections and questions from members stems not from reasoned and fairly objective analysis but rather from the person’s spiritual or emotional problems? • Making a choice other than the one recommended by leaders is usually thought unwise or rebellious? • Dating and courtship are highly controlled? • Most members believe they are only to date/marry other members? • Group demands so much time that little is left to pursue old friendships outside the group? • There is a general mistrust of others outside the group? This is just a part of the list in the back of this book. | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
"What is spiritual abuse? Just as emotional abuse affects one emotionally, while physical abuse inflicts pain and bodily injury on its victim, spiritual abuse affects one spiritually. It is the result of a spiritual leader or system that tries to control, manipulate, or dominate a person. This control is often in the form of fear. This is considered a major factor in mind control or thought reform. There are those who feel the latter comes into play in cases such as these, while others feel the thinking is in error. No matter where one stands, it does not lessen the affects of spiritual abuse. David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen in The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse describe the action: "It's possible to become so determined to defend a spiritual place of authority, a doctrine or a way of doing things that you wound and abuse anyone who questions, or disagrees, or doesn't 'behave' spiritually the way you want them to. When your words and actions tear down another, or attack or weaken a person's standing as a Christian- to gratify you, your position or your beliefs while at the same time weakening or harming another- that is spiritual abuse." The above and other information can be found at this website: http://www.spiritualabuse.org/introduction.html | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Let's look at FACTNet's criteria: "Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters. The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives. The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship. The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves. The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say. The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics. The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising. The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult." | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
And here's some more "food for thought..." Here's some mind control tactics (which FACTnet listed) that are often used: "The tactics used to create undue psychological and social influence, often by means involving anxiety and stress, fall into seven main categories. TACTIC 1 Increase suggestibility and "soften up" the individual through specific hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as:Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills, Excessive exact repetition of routine activities, Sleep restriction and/or Nutritional restriction. TACTIC 2 Establish control over the person's social environment, time and sources of social support by a system of often-excessive rewards and punishments. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. TACTIC 3 Prohibit disconfirming information and non supporting opinions in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed. TACTIC 4 Make the person re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control and defense mechanisms. The subject is guided to reinterpret his or her life's history and adopt a new version of causality. TACTIC 5 Create a sense of powerlessness by subjecting the person to intense and frequent actions and situations which undermine the person's confidence in himself and his judgment. TACTIC 6 Create strong aversive emotional arousals in the subject by use of nonphysical punishments such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques. TACTIC 7 Intimidate the person with the force of group-sanctioned secular psychological threats. For example, it may be suggested or implied that failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequences such as physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc." http://www.factnet.org/coercivemindcontrol.html?FACTNet Continuing... "Another set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of mind control systems. If most of Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of thought reform is being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and destructive cult. These eight points follow: Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Point Model of Thought Reform 1. ENVIRONMENT CONTROL. Limitation of many/all forms of communication with those outside the group. Books, magazines, letters and visits with friends and family are taboo. "Come out and be separate!" 2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION. The potential convert to the group becomes convinced of the higher purpose and special calling of the group through a profound encounter / experience, for example, through an alleged miracle or prophetic word of those in the group. 3. DEMAND FOR PURITY. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or personal level. "Perfection is possible if one stays with the group and is committed." 4. CULT OF CONFESSION. The unhealthy practice of self disclosure to members in the group. Often in the context of a public gathering in the group, admitting past sins and imperfections, even doubts about the group and critical thoughts about the integrity of the leaders. 5. SACRED SCIENCE. The group's perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain EVERYTHING. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. ABSOLUTE conformity to the doctrine is required. 6. LOADED LANGUAGE. A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group. Group members "think" within the very abstract and narrow parameters of the group's doctrine. The terminology sufficiently stops members from thinking critically by reinforcing a "black and white" mentality. Loaded terms and clichés prejudice thinking. 7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON. Pre-group experience and group experience are narrowly and decisively interpreted through the absolute doctrine, even when experience contradicts the doctrine. 8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE. Salvation is possible only in the group. Those who leave the group are doomed." http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm?FACTNet | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Ronald Enroth, Ph.D. Cult Observer, Volume 9, No. 4, 1992 "It is common practice for church goers in American society to refer to their own congregation as their "church family." Students away at college make reference to their "home church." Church people sing hymns about being part of "the family of God." Parents often employ family imagery to convey spiritual content to their children. As behavioral scientists remind us all too often, that most basic of social institutions—the family—is increasingly subject to frailty and failure. The label that is currently popular for unhealthy families is "dysfunctional." Unfortunately, sociologists of religion (as well as many exmembers) know that some churches are also dysfunctional, even to the point of being spiritually abusive. If truth in advertising standards could be applied to religion, some churches would be required to display a sign reading: "Warning: this church could be harmful to your spiritual and psychological health." Farfetched? Not if my own research of the past few years has any validity at all. Sadly, spiritual and pastoral abuse is more prevalent than most people believe. Like child abuse, it often goes undetected, or else it is strongly denied. Spiritual abuse is inflicted by persons who are accorded respect and honor in society by virtue of their positions of religious authority and leadership. When such leaders violate the sacred trust they have been given, when they abuse their authority, and when they misuse their ecclesiastical office to control their congregations, the results can be catastrophic. What are the hallmarks of unhealthy, aberrant churches? The key indicator is control oriented leadership, ministers who have a need to "lord it over the flock." Abusive leaders demand submission and unquestioning loyalty. The person who raises uncomfortable questions or does not "get with the program" is cast aside. Guilt, fear, and intimidation are used to manipulate and control vulnerable members, especially those who have been taught to believe that questioning their pastor is comparable to questioning God. Why does a pastor or priest sometimes turn into a spiritual tyrant? I believe it is because of the human desire to control others and to exercise power over people. Each of us has been exposed to the temptation of power, whether in the role of spouse, teacher, or parent. An excessive will to power, coupled with sincere religious motives, can lead to the misuse of spiritual authority. More than any other age group, young adults are attracted to abusive churches, their seemingly dynamic programs, and their "take charge" leaders. Such churches often target young couples during the crucial child bearing years. As a result, the energy needed by these young couples for legitimate family interaction is siphoned off into a high intensity cause. Family obligations are sacrificed, and children’s developmental needs are neglected. How can we recognize a healthy church? In addition to matters of appropriate doctrine, a healthy church is reconciling and restorative, not adversarial and elitist. Members of healthy churches seek to deepen and strengthen their family commitments. Legitimate leaders will welcome dissent and hard questions from members without threat of reprisal. Trustworthy leaders will encourage accountability, and they will establish checks and balances. Choose a church carefully and prayerfully. Remember, not all religion is benign, and not all church experience is beneficial." Ronald M. Enroth, a professor of sociology at Westmont College [Santa Barbara, CA], has written many articles and books on cults and aberrant religious groups, including Churches That Abuse. This article first appeared in the Savannah Parent magazine (Savannah, Georgia)—Vol. 3, No. 3, and April 1992, p. 11 http://www.csj.org/rg/rgessays/rgessay_dysfunchurch.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
"Mind control (also referred to as "brainwashing," "coercive persuasion," "thought reform," and the "systematic manipulation of psychological and social influence") refers to a process in which a group or individual systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated. Such methods include: extensive control of information in order to limit alternatives from which members may make "choices"; deception; group pressure; intense indoctrination into a belief system that denigrates independent critical thinking and considers the world outside the group to be threatening, evil, or gravely in error; an insistence that members’ distress—much of which may consist of anxiety and guilt subtly induced by the group—can be relieved only by conforming to the group; physical and/or psychological debilitation through inadequate diet or fatigue; the induction of dissociative (trance-like) states (via the misuse of meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, and other exercises) in which attention is narrowed, suggestibility heightened, and independent critical thinking weakened; alternation of harshness/threats and leniency/love in order to effect compliance with the leadership’s wishes; isolation from social supports; and pressured public confessions; Although the process by which cults come to exercise mind control over members is complex and varies a great deal, there appear to be three overlapping stages: Deception. Recruits are duped into believing that the group is benevolent and will enrich their lives by, for example, advancing their spirituality or increasing their self-esteem and security. As a result of this deception and the systematic use of highly manipulative techniques of influence, recruits come to commit themselves to the group’s prescribed ways of thinking, feeling, and acting; in other words, they become members or converts. Dependency. By gradually isolating members from outside influences, establishing unrealistically high and guilt-inducing expectations, punishing any expressions of "negativity," and denigrating independent, critical thinking, the group causes members to become extremely dependent on the group’s compliance-oriented expressions of love and support. Dread. Once a state of dependency is firmly established, the group’s control over members’ thoughts, feelings, and behavior is strengthened by the members’ growing dread of losing the group’s psychological support (physical threat also occurs in some groups), however much it may aim at ensuring their compliance with leadership’s often debilitating demands. Is Mind Control Different from the Ordinary Social Conditioning Employed by Parents and Social Institutions? Yes. Ordinary social conditioning differs from mind control in two important ways. First, parents, schools, churches, and other organizations do not as a rule utilize unethically manipulative techniques in socializing children, adolescents, and young adults. Second, social conditioning is a slow process which promotes and encourages an initially "unformed" child to become an autonomous adult with a unique identity. Mind control, on the other hand, uses unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control to induce dependency in a person with an established identity, which the manipulator seeks to alter radically without the informed consent of his targets. The techniques with which a group or person seeks to influence another can be broken down into two categories: choice-respecting, which includes techniques that honor the autonomy of the person being influenced; and compliance-gaining, which includes techniques (examples given in the previous answer) focused on obtaining a desired response, regardless of the needs, wishes, goals, etc., of the person being influenced. Choice-respecting techniques can be further broken down into educative and advisory techniques, while compliance-gaining techniques can be broken down into techniques of persuasion and control. A cult environment differs from a non-cult environment in that the former exhibits a much greater proportion of compliance-gaining techniques of persuasion and control. In rearing children, it is often necessary -- and proper -- to use control and persuasion to protect them from danger and to help them grow up. As children grow into adults, however, they develop an identity and a sense of personal autonomy that demand respect. Parents learn to surrender control as their children learn to assume responsibility. When this process of normal development breaks down, as when an adult becomes suicidally depressed, relatives and/or helping authorities will tend to become compliance-oriented and step into a "caretaker" role (possibly, in this case, commitment to a psychiatric hospital). When the crisis has passed, however, unwritten ethical rules require that the influencer return to a choice-respecting mode of relating to the adult. In certain special situations, such as joining the army or joining religious orders, individuals choose to relinquish some of their autonomy. Unlike cult situations, these situations entail informed consent, do not seek to "transform" the person’s identity, and are contractual, rather than dependency-oriented. Furthermore, most of these situations involve groups that are accountable to society. Cults, on the other hand, answer to no one as they flout the unwritten ethical laws by deceptively establishing a compliance-gaining relationship with individuals whose autonomy and identity they disregard. Hence, any similarities between a cult environment and boot camp, for example, are psychologically superficial. Some cult apologists maintain that mind control doesn't exist because most cult recruits don’t become members. These apologists often cite a study which reported that 10% of those completing a two-day workshop offered by a controversial group became members, while 5% remained members after two years. Those who did join, however, made major and rapid changes in their lives, for the group in question demands the total commitment of members’ time. In contrast, in the typical Billy Graham crusade, only 1%-3% of attending unbelievers (who have been personally evangelized to for months) come forward during the altar call, let alone modify their lives radically. And Billy Graham is considered to be one of the most effective evangelists in history! Persuading 10% of a group of people, who are largely recruited from the street, to become full-time missionaries within a matter of weeks reflects an astounding level of psychological influence!" http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/cultqa3.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
"How Do People Who Join Cults Change? After converts commit themselves to a cult, the cult’s way of thinking, feeling, and acting becomes second nature, while important aspects of their pre-cult personalities are suppressed or, in a sense, decay through disuse. New converts at first frequently appear to be shell-shocked by the bombardment of the cult’s mind controlling techniques. They may appear "spaced out," rigid and stereotyped in their responses, limited in their use of language, impaired in their ability to think critically, and oddly distant in their relationships with others. Parents have been known to say, "That’s not my kid!" Such observations account for the common contention that cult members are "zombies" or glassy-eyed "robots." Although this description is an overstatement, it does reflect the fact that intense cultic manipulations can trigger altered states of consciousness in some persons. In time, converts seem to lose the tension and "spaced-out," distant quality. They learn techniques, such as chanting, to stifle doubts and to make it easier to lie to others and themselves. They often lose contact with people from their pre-cult lives as a result of the cult’s isolating opposition to parents and society. And they receive rewards for conforming to the demands of the group on which they have become so dependent. If allowed to break into consciousness, suppressed memories or nagging doubts may generate anxiety which, in turn, may trigger a defensive trance-induction, such as speaking in tongues, to protect the cult-imposed system of thoughts, feelings, and behavior. Such persons may function adequately—at least on a superficial level. Nevertheless, their continued adjustment depends on their keeping their old thinking styles, goals, values, and personal attachments "in storage." A normal level of psychological development and personality integration is very difficult to achieve. How Can Cults Harm People? Because they often recognize the harmful changes that are not apparent to seduced converts, families are usually the first to be hurt. In their attempts to help cult-involved relatives, families experience intense frustration, helplessness, guilt, and, because so few people understand their plight, loneliness. Members may be harmed in that they lose their psychological autonomy and frequently their assets. Furthermore, the group’s partial-to-total disconnection from society deprives members of the opportunity to learn from the varied experiences that a normal life provides. Members may lose irretrievable years in a state of "maturational arrest." In some cases, they undergo psychiatric breakdowns and/or suffer from physical disease and injury. Children in cults appear to be at high risk for abuse and neglect. Those who leave cults frequently experience anxiety, depression, rage, guilt, distrust, fear, thought disturbances, and "floating," the shifting from cult to non-cult ways of viewing the world or the sense of being stalled in a foggy, "in-between" state of consciousness. This emotional turmoil impairs decision-making and interferes with the management of life tasks. Indeed, many ex-members require one to two years to return to their former level of adaptation, while some may have psychological breakdowns or remain psychologically scarred for years. Not all who join are psychologically damaged. Some may find the cult to be a safe haven from unmanageable difficulties in the non-cult world. Others who have histories of maintaining emotional distance may follow the cult without ever truly becoming part of it or being deeply affected by it. And some may have personal strengths, such as an unusual capacity to resist group pressure, that enable them to maintain a measure of autonomy, even in a powerful, compliance-gaining environment." http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/cultqa4.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
"Why Do People Leave Cults? People leave cults for a variety of reasons. After becoming aware of hypocrisy and/or corruption within the cult, converts who have maintained an element of independence and some connection with their old values may simply walk out disillusioned. Other members may leave because they have become weary of a routine of proselytizing and fund-raising. Sometimes even the most dedicated members may feel so inadequate in the face of the cult’s demands that they walk away, not because they have stopped believing, but because they feel like abject failures. Still others may renounce the cult after reconnecting to old values, goals, interests, or relationships, resulting from visits with parents, talks with ex-members, or counseling. Is Leaving a Cult Easy? Persons who consider leaving a cult are usually pressured to stay. Some ex-members say that they spent months, even years, trying to garner the strength to walk out. Some felt so intimidated that they departed secretly. Although most cult members eventually walk out on their own, parental alarm should not be discounted. First, many, if not most, who leave cults on their own are psychologically harmed, often in ways which they do not understand. Second, some cultists never leave, and some of these are severely harmed. And third, there is no way to predict who will leave, who won’t leave, or who will be harmed. Consequently, to dismiss parental concern out of hand is analogous to dismissing concerns about youthful marijuana smoking because most youths who try marijuana do not become substance abusers." http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/cultqa6.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
"What Can Educators, Clergy, and Others Do to Protect Young People Against Cultic Recruitment? ...The cultic danger to young people is decreased when: outside criticism causes cults to decrease the level of manipulation in their environments; young people develop resistance to cultic sales pitches by learning about how groups in general (not just cults) can influence one’s thoughts, feelings, and behavior; young people learn to cope with stress and recognize and try to overcome personal vulnerabilities, such as dependency, low tolerance of ambiguity, and naive idealism—seeking professional help when appropriate. Consequently, educators and clergy can help protect youth by not being afraid to criticize cult abuses, but teaching youth about cultic manipulations, and by helping youth cultivate three values that will make them less vulnerable to cultic enticements: personal autonomy—the individual’s capacity to determine his life with minimal pressure or manipulation from without; personal integration—the individual’s continuing attempt to order his memories, values, beliefs, heritage, etc., into a unified whole; and independent critical thinking, without which autonomy cannot be maintained or integration achieved." By Michael D. Langone, Ph.D. http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/cultqa9.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
"Comparable individual diversity has been evident among the members of many different cult groups I've studied over the past several decades. What is common are the recruiting promises, influence agendas and group's coercive influence power that compromise the personal exercise of free will and critical thinking. On the basis of my investigations and the psychological research of colleagues, we can argue the following propositions, some of which will be elaborated: 1. No one ever joins a "cult." People join interesting groups that promise to fulfill their pressing needs. They become "cults" when they are seen as deceptive, defective, dangerous, or as opposing basic values of their society. 2. Cults represent each society's "default values," filling in its missing functions. The cult epidemic is diagnostic of where and how society is failing its citizens. 3. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. As basic human values are being strained, distorted and lost in our rapidly evolving culture, illusions and promissory notes are too readily believed and bought--without reality validation or credit checks. 4. Whatever any member of a cult has done, you and I could be recruited or seduced into doing--under the right or wrong conditions. The majority of "normal, average, intelligent" individuals can be led to engage in immoral, illegal, irrational, aggressive and self destructive actions that are contrary to their values or personality--when manipulated situational conditions exert their power over individual dispositions. 5. Cult methods of recruiting, indoctrinating and influencing their members are not exotic forms of mind control, but only more intensely applied mundane tactics of social influence practiced daily by all compliance professionals and societal agents of influence. What is the appeal of cults? Imagine being part of a group in which you will find instant friendship, a caring family, respect for your contributions, an identity, safety, security, simplicity, and an organized daily agenda. You will learn new skills, have a respected position, gain personal insight, improve your personality and intelligence. There is no crime or violence and your healthy lifestyle means there is no illness. Your leader may promise not only to heal any sickness and foretell the future, but give you the gift of immortality, if you are a true believer. In addition, your group's ideology represents a unique spiritual/religious agenda (in other cults it is political, social or personal enhancement) that if followed, will enhance the Human Condition somewhere in the world or cosmos. Who would fall for such appeals? Most of us, if they were made by someone we trusted, in a setting that was familiar, and especially if we had unfulfilled needs." Philip G. Zimbardo, Ph.D., is professor of psychology at Stanford University and a former APA president. He has interviewed and worked closely with survivors of Peoples Temple and their family members, as well as former members of the Unification Church, Scientology, Synanon, Churches of Christ and other cults. This article was published in the American Psychological Association Monitor, May 1997, page 14. http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_zimbar.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED? By John R. Anderson - January 1997 "One of the most common errors found in Christianity today is that particular persons, usually pastors or evangelists, are somehow more "anointed" than the average Christian. This teaching often coincides with a veiled threat in the form of "touch not mine [the Lord's] anointed," (I Ch. 16:22, Ps. 105:15). The term "anointing" means to "authorize, or set apart, a person for a particular work or service," (Is.61:1). The New Testament is absolutely clear on whom the anointing rests - ALL of Christ's disciples, who are God's very own, set apart and commissioned for service (2 Cor. 1:21). The New Testament does not support the notion of a "greater" anointing based on "position" and such teaching has its origin in a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between the Old and New Testaments. Proponents of this error fail to use careful exegesis to discern the difference between the Old Testament call of a "prophet," where the anointing rested on one man (Is. 61:1, I Sam. 26:9,11, 2 Sam. 22:51, 2 Chr. 6:42), and the New Testament call of a "priesthood of believers" (I Pet. 2:5,9). Certainly there are diversities of gifts, but the Spirit [or anointing] remains the same (I Cor. 12). Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and many others have long terrorized God's people with "touch not mine anointed" nonsense if anyone dared question them or their teaching. Anyone who has a gift (all have gifts, 1 Cor. 12:7-11), has a ministry, and anyone who has a ministry, has authority and is anointed. It is a sad situation in many churches today that "laity" are content to sit on a pew week after week and assume the opinions of professional clergymen are to be the final authority. They find comfort in this approach because it is safe. Preachers are content to keep it this way because it secures their position in the church. How many times have believers been subjected to mishandled scripture with an implicit or explicit "touch not God's anointed" if any dared to question? This is in contrast to the Biblical admonition to "try the spirits", (1 John 4:1). Fear is not of God and teaching which incorporates psychological intimidation is corrupt and deceptive. One of the easiest ways to determine what "spirit" motivates a person "in authority" is to question them. A godly man or woman will never be offended or become indignant if someone dares to question them and compare what is said with the Word of God. However, if one is motivated by an "authoritarian" spirit of conceit or arrogance, the questioner will soon know it. Peter warned the elders (pastors and spiritual guides of the church) not to be domineering [arrogant, dictatorial, overbearing] over the flock of God, but to be patterns and models of Christian living (I Pet. 5:3, AMPL.) Many prominent pastors and evangelists today make the claim that because "souls" are being saved and "healings" take place in their meetings, that this somehow validates their ministry. While these things may be well and good, they are no indication of "divine" sanction. A.A. Allen was a drunkard, Jimmy Swaggart a whoremonger, Jim Bakker a thief, Larry Lea a prevaricator, and Robert Tilton a charlatan - yet ALL of these saw thousands saved and miracles take place in their meetings. Because one is blessed with "prosperity" and has a "following" of thousands, doesn't mean a darn thing when it comes to integrity and godly sanction, for "he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust," (Matt. 5:45)..." http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/anointed.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Excerpt from the book Twisted Scriptures, Chapter 4: "When a group influences its congregation to trust in the leaders and discourages criticism of the leadership, the group creates a lethal combination! They encourage errors to be overlooked and leaders can get away with almost anything. "Jan" was in prison. In her disciple's notebook she wrote ... I want to share Jesus with others but I don't want them to be in prison with me. Jan's prison had no walls. She was constantly baby-sitting for the married couples in her group and her presence was required for so many churchrelated activities that she had little time for herself or the nursing school she dearly desired to attend. Jan could not fully understand why the guidance of her leaders left her in such a situation. She only knew that she felt that she was in a prison. Although her situation was extremely oppressive, Jan felt she could not question the leadership, doubt their decisions, or ever say anything negative against the people she viewed as "God's men." Abusive discipleship is a prison of the mind which therefore imprisons the body to accept the will of the group. .... TRUST IS EXPLOITED Trust is an important word for believers. Our Christian life is built on trust. The Christian fellowship is a community of those who trust God. We should trust one another, especially our leaders. A lot is made of trust of the leadership in some discipleships and most controlling groups. Some programs indicate that if we are not totally trusting in our discipler we are hard hearted and rebellious; that we are in sin. CHAPTER REVIEW: Beyond Accountability MANIPULATIVE GROUPS MIGHT ... -control negative feedback of leaders -squelch legitimate criticism of leadership -teach people to obey even when they don't feel right about it (thus encouraging people to die to their sense of right and wrong) -teach that doubts and criticism of leadership equals sin -teach that all criticism of leadership is probably slanderous, divisive or factious -cause members to loose jobs, promotions or deter them from school or other goals or family activities -emphasize Biblical ideas like dying to self in a non-scriptural way -subtly redefine the meanings of words -hound on these certain Biblical words almost to the exclusion of other sound Biblical principles -induce guilt in members so they confess being sorry for not trusting their discipler more -not tell you that in the Bible trust or loyalty is never used in reference to church leaders -teach you that unity means that you need to change your opinions to match the groups' instead of constancy of purpose -teach you that you must only go to leaders in private when you are pointing out error -encourage the combination of trusting leaders and not criticizing" Copyright 1996 Mary Alice Chrnalogar Last revised: Nov 12, 1997 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/abuse4.html | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
More excerpts from Twisted Scripture" Authority Unlimited Chapter 3 "When we preach the message of Jesus, if some reject His message, then they are rejecting Jesus. We can't stretch that to mean that if our disciples reject our advice they are rejecting Jesus. Touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm!(Psalms 105:15 KJV) Some discipleship groups interpret this verse to mean that we shouldn't question or say anything negative against our leaders. This interpretation squelches legitimate questions or complaints that might stop errors. Leaders who adopt this slant on scripture become almost immune from accountability to their people. This is only one example of the ways in which abusive discipleship groups may use Bible verses. Passages are often taken out of context and their true meanings distorted; but these groups also correctly interpret many verses. That is why it is so difficult to see what they are doing. Gilbert Trusty, a former pastor who used this passage to control his flock now explains... This particular concept is so twisted, so groundless that it would be funny if it was not so sad. In context, in those verses (Psalms 105:915) (KJV) God is talking about the patriarchs, about how He protected them, about how He kept Abraham's life. The main thing the scripture was dealing with is when Abemelech took Sarah into his harem. God wanted Abraham to keep his wife. God was protecting Abraham because from him was going to come a nation and from that nation was going to come the Messiah. Also John tells us that in the body of Christ we each have the anointing of God. (1 John 2:20-27) This anointing does not apply only to the man behind the pulpit; we each have the anointing of God. The Holy Spirit is available to every one of us. We can be filled as we open ourselves and yield to God. It's not just one man, or some church leaders on earth who God has set apart anointed. "Touch not my anointed" refers to all of us who are in the body of Christ. Many times people forget that this scripture could never be used to mean that sheep should not question their leaders. A good leader should be honored and respected; but we are instructed (1 Thes. 5:21) to prove all things. First Tim 3:10 says that deacons must be proved. According to Revelations 2:2, even those who call themselves apostles should be tried. Jesus commends them because they tried those who called themselves apostles and found they were false. In abusive discipleship the mere fact that someone is a leader means that I should never say anything critical about that leader. What a nice position! To be a leader when your flock feels that they can't be critical of you without going against God! But this is very dangerous for the flock. The foundation of the discipleship movement is the authority of the discipler. What distinguishes discipleship relationships from the typical relationship between a pastor and the flock is that the discipler is granted a significantly greater authority to guide the directions and decisions of the disciple. Could this possibly be Biblical, that a young Christian lay person is granted power to oversee souls? This heightened authority may be communicated directly to disciples through teaching, combined with an insistence that disciples be submissive, obedient, trusting and broken. Another way in which the excessive authority is indirectly communicated is by the way in which a leader exercises authority over the disciple. The church has always held that both the content of a leader's doctrine and the leader's behavior are important. (1 Tim. 3:113; Tit. 1:511; 1 Pet. 5:2,3) IMITATE, TRUST, BE LOYAL AND HAVE FAITH IN LEADERS ... ...OR GOD ...OR BOTH? What does the Bible say? The more extreme controlling groups will stress one or more of these ideas to gain more control... Not only should you trust God but you need to trust your leaders also! Not only should you be loyal to God but you need to be loyal to your leaders! Not only should you have faith in God but you need to have faith in your leaders! Not only should you imitate Jesus but you need to imitate your leaders (without also teaching that it is the leaders' Christian virtues which are worthy of imitation.) You don't find these ideas in the Bible, but if a group wants to gain nearly unlimited authority over people it is extremely important for that group to emphasize them. If your group only uses one of these ideas, it is time to recognize it and analyze how it is misused and what the Bible really teaches about it. Of course it is not wrong to have some trust, faith, or loyalty in your leadership. What is wrong is to teach that the Bible says this is expected of us. If your group labels people as sinners because they don't trust the leaders, don't have faith in them, don't have loyalty to them, or fail to imitate them: this is also contrary to scripture. Non-controlling churches generally stick more closely to Scripture and only teach trusting in God, having faith in God, having loyalty to God and imitating the life and virtues of Jesus or the virtues of Jesus in men. .... Chatper Review Manipulative Groups Might... overstep the boundaries of Scripture when it comes to limiting leaders' guidance capacity -twist verses like "Touch not my anointed" implying that we can't be critical of leaders without being critical of God -stress trusting leaders, having faith in leaders, imitating leaders and being loyal to them -grant disciplers (lay people) significantly greater authority to guide than Biblical standards permit -at times claim that refusal to obey leaders' opinions in personal matters is sin -allow leaders to exercise authority like high officials instead of being a servant to the their flock -stress that leaders are servants but in practice allow leaders to force their opinions on members by threatening or actually carrying out public or private rebuke for differences of opinion -not call attention to Scriptures saying that people were not always expected to obey their leaders -imply, or even teach, that we should look on our discipler as the Apostles looked on Jesus -classify almost all criticism of leaders as slanderous or malicious -selectively focus on the idea that Jesus endured under abusive authority by being crucified; implying that we should obey even bad advice from leaders as that would prove our brokenness -selectively focus on words or phrases and change their meanings; especially the words: obey, submit, dying to self, thus making it appear that a complete compliance to group leaders is what the Bible teaches -denigrate any career other than full-time service to the church as serving God less than full-time ministry -not teach that there is a distinction between back-biting, and legitimately criticizing leadership's actions -not teach that the authority is in the message and not the messenger -permit novices to oversee souls or promote novices to positions of leadership -teach that Jesus poured himself into only 12 people -not teach that there is a distinction between a leader's opinion or advice, and the Lord's Biblical commands -not stress "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5) -not stress Scriptures which describe how Jesus refused to obey authority -not explain that the Greek word exousia was never used in reference to church leaders, except the Apostles -not explain that only reasonable commands of leaders must be obeyed and that these must stay within scriptural boundaries -impress that we need to be accountable to a discipler in every area of our life and not just in the area of Scripture -claim that if advice from leaders doesn't contradict" Copyright 1996 Mary Alice Chrnalogar Last revised: Nov 12, 1997 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/abuse3.html | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
The Signs Of Authoritarian Abuse © by Steven Lambert, ThD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you one of the many loyal and sincere church members who faithfully and cheerfully attend, support and participate in a local church, but have a nagging, persistent inward "thought" that "something is just not right here?" Each time it rises within you, you peer around the room at the faces of fellow-worshipers caught up in seemingly heart-felt worship, you tune your ear to the soothing, melodious music crescendoing upward, and listen intently to the inspiring exhortations flowing from the lips of the various leaders on the platform...then...once again...you begin to chastise yourself...and "take authority" over those terrible carnal, negative thoughts, and command them to leave your mind. Now! there! no more of that! Right? Right! That is, until the next time...and it happens all over again! You are enthralled in blissful worship and praise, focusing entirely on the Lord and His Magnificence. You begin to feel that familiar, but awesome sensation of His Presence filling the room and settling gently upon you. And then...BOOM!...there it is AGAIN!!—that still, small inner voice, telling you He is pleased by your expression of love, adoration, and praise; it is a sweet savor which He has received from your heart to His. But, still, He wants you to be aware there is something wrong here...with the leadership...their teaching, their "leadership" attitudes and methods, their motives and ambitions, their personal life-styles, their earnestness regarding ministering on His behalf to the needs of the hurting, needy multitudes for whom He died. Is it possible this really IS the Lord speaking to you? Is that possible? And, then you go through the drill once again, looking, listening, analyzing. "But," you reply inwardly to the voice, "look at all these people here, the volunteer workers, the ministers, the musicians and choir! they can't all be wrong! and there wouldn't be this many people here if it wasn't of God! Look at this wonderful building, its furnishings and decor, the instruments, all the regalia, all the money it cost? God has to be endorsing this, otherwise the money for all this would not have come in! Listen to the inspiring music and messages by the leaders! And, look at all the people who've been blessed! This CAN'T possibly not be of God! God! what's wrong with me? why do I think such horrible thoughts?" you cry silently within. Then, you begin realizing, somehow, somewhere along the line you began losing your joy, your zeal for the Lord. It used to be you could hardly wait for the services and to be involved; now it is drudgery to go at all. You used to have such a light and blissful feeling as you worshiped the Lord in the services; now you just go through the motions, feeling heavy, staring placidly toward the platform, sometimes wishing you were somewhere else. You used to be able to "look past" the leaders, and focus only on the Lord; now, all you see during the service is people, people behind the pulpit, people on the platform, and people in the pews. You used to feel God's love and pleasure with you; now it seems all you feel is unworthiness, guilt, and that nothing you do is ever enough or pleasing to Him. "What on earth has happened to me? What's wrong with me?" you ask yourself. "Is it just me?" Then, you begin to look around the room and study other long-time members. You compare how they are now to how they were when they first came. Is their life, as it should be, appreciably better, or have they and their family experienced an inordinate share of tragedies, seemingly inexplicable difficulties, and reversals? By and by, you begin to realize that many of the other members have lost their "first love" too, their zeal, their enthusiasm, their joy in serving the Lord, and that, though Christians, like everyone else, certainly experience adversity, many of these members' lives have been on a gradual, downward spiral, instead of advancement and blessing. Does this scenario sound familiar to you? If so, don't think you're alone—it's repeated several times every week by multitudes of sincere, faithful, and trusting believers. They've had this inward intuition for quite some time that something was just not right at their church or in their group, but just couldn't put their finger on precisely what it was. The teaching "sounded" right, all the right things were being said, good things were happening, many members were being "used" in various "ministries" of the church. Still, this nagging sense something is awry persists. Often, these are the symptoms of a church or group laboring under the heavy-hand of hyper-authoritarianism. That is to say, the leadership is dominating, controlling, and manipulating their followers, and exploiting them for their own personal gain and private kingdom-building. Wholesale abuse and misuse of authority is an integral part of the very foundation, fabric, and functions of such groups. Exploitative abuse of authority occurring in groups where these hyper-authoritarian systems of governance are instituted come in various shapes and shades, ranging from members having to receive the approval (usually referred to as "witness") of their spiritual leaders to date and/or marry, to virtual sole dependence upon the supposed superior spirituality of group-gurus regarding every detail of their personal financial matters and requiring their leaders' approval for virtually every significant expenditure. Commonly, in these groups there is constant allusion to the members as "dumb sheep" who must be "led" by the shepherds, ad nauseam. The definition of the term "led" in these groups is that the "dumb sheep" cannot trust their own judgment or ability to receive direction from the Lord for the important decisions of their lives, but must rely instead upon the transcendent wisdom and spiritual acumen of their "personal pastors." The proper role of human under-shepherds is to lead people to the Great Shepherd, Jesus Christ, and teach them how to be His disciples, in submission to Him and His authority. Hyper-authoritarian leaders, instead, lead people to themselves, and indoctrinate them to be their followers, in total submission to them and their authority. In essence, these dominating shepherds teach they are the church-members' de facto lord, master, and savior, rather than Christ. They indoctrinate members to believe the spiritual leaders of the church themselves are the members' "spiritual covering" (a totally false and patently unbiblical concept), and any member who ever leaves the church will be "out from under" their "covering," be without any covering or what they call, "uncovered," and will experience terrible curses and other horrible consequences as a result. From the pulpit often come "horror stories" about what happened to such-and-so person or family, who were so spiritually bereft or rebellious as to leave the group without the blessings and approval of their "spirital authority." In these groups, the "authority" of the "shepherds" is absolute, sacrosanct, and inviolable, that is, without reprisal. Any semblance of anything other than total and unquestioning obedience to the desires and counsel of the church's leadership chain is considered rebellion and insubordination, and simply is not tolerated. Members live under the constant threat of being branded with the Scarlet Letter "R" for "rebel," openly denounced and shamed from the (bully-)pulpit, and consequently shunned by the "covenant-community" for failure to comply with the unwritten, unspoken rules and expectations established by the leadership. An oppressive performance-based approval and promotion system keeps members in constant internal turmoil and fear as they jump through all the hoops the spiritual taskmasters put before them, in an attempt to seek their leaders' approval and favor. Moreover, members are indoctrinated and compelled to accept the leadership-set agenda of the group, regarding which they have next to no real say, as their personal burden and responsibility, and thus to commit their time, talent, and, most importantly, their tithe, to its successful completion. Sadly, most never see past the spiritual smoke and mirrors to realize that the so-called "church" to which they have sworn allegiance and promised their wholehearted and unflagging support, is nothing more than the personal "business" of its leaders, and not only are they free labor, but they actually pay out of their own resources for the privilege of being a participant, i.e., member." http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/abuse.html | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
HOW TO RECOGNIZE IF YOU ARE IN A CULT "Are you told not to question what is being taught because the leaders are honest and want the best for you so you must trust them? Has someone replaced your own choices in life? Are you told not to ask questions why anyone left, your to accept the answers the leaders give you such as: they fell into sin, they didn’t receive correction, they weren’t open or they had a bad heart and didn’t want to be disciples? Are you told that you must be with their certain church or group to be saved and not by Jesus Christ? If you want to leave are you being told their is no other church that practices truth, you will go to hell? Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard? Are you being rebuked for things such as the way you say hello or how you respond to being asked to do something for a leader or disciple. Do they tell you its a matter of the heart how one complies? Are they putting down other church’s and building themselves up. Do they sometimes use people as examples of what you are to be doing and others on what you are not to be doing? Do they bring attention to what they do, and ignoring others that may be doing the same things outside their church? Do they put down others to make themselves look better, calling themselves righteous and others unrighteous? Do they call those who left fall away’s and enemies dogs returning to their own vomit, using examples as Korah or Judas? Do they stop you from reading anything negative about themselves calling it spiritual pornography or recommend you not to read it for your own spiritual protection? Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities. If not you're spirituality is questioned? Do they defend all that they do even though it can be harmful or wrong? Do they operate by humility or are they arrogant and demand you to obey if you are considering otherwise? Or is it done subtly by manipulating you into obeying by statements such as, real Christians obey their leaders or if you were following Jesus you would see what I’m saying is right, true disciples did not question Jesus? THINGS TO BE AWARE OF: -People telling you how talented you are and saying you can really go places. (flattery goes a long way) -An instant bonding of friendship without your knowing who they are or they really knowing you, they act as your best friend. (love bombing still works) -When you ask questions about their history or the group they are vague in their answers or avoid them. (not answering or postponing it makes it go away) -Are you required to attend studies, going through the program before you are allowed to be a Christian. (this will attach you to the groups goals) -Are they emphasizing their church and who they are, more than Christ. They teach that one can only be a Christian by joining them. (exclusive spirituality appeals to our pride and works well today) -Cults will always divide the family unit instead of bringing them together. They will make you choose between God and their church. they use scriptures such as Jesus came to bring a sword not peace or one must give up brothers sisters wife and house for the kingdom and be a true follower Children often become the most hurt because of strict rules enforced on them.they lose their childhood and are deeply affected being unable to adjust later on in life.Religious systems that are not balanced can be socially and psychologically disastrous for innocent children. What to do when confronted to join: -Say you're not interested and do not put up with their badgering and phone calls. Tell them you want time to think about what they are teaching before you become committed to their group. If they pressure you for attendance or continuing in their studies then you know this is not something good. -If you are already a member, leave while it may be easy because it doesn’t get easier to leave later on. KNOW THE RIGHTS YOU HAVE -You have every right to ask questions, lots of them in fact. Ask about what other churches they are affiliated with. -What is their history and the people involved and those they look up to for spiritual teaching. What books influenced them or what do they read. -What is their doctrine, is their basic beliefs and philosophy of ministry on paper. If not, why not. -Can you review on paper their revenues, are they open to the people and public. Do they review who gives what to the Church. Are peoples finances monitored? -If others left can you find out why, or is mum the word. Do they allow you to speak to former members. If this is not allowed, this becomes the biggest check in joining quickly. Watch if they become uncomfortable in your asking about their origins or teachings. -Give yourself some time if you're seeking to know God or looking for a church he will give you warnings and lead you. Don’t ignore the warning signs or checks on how they conduct themselves no matter how friendly the people are . Love and emotional attachments are an old ruse to have you accepted without any strings attached. This doesn’t last long. Ask what they do on their spare time .Many times ones talent and creativity is smothered as all their time goes toward the group or church. -Where do all the people in cults come from? Ron Rhodes writes in his book "The Culting of America", "It is a common myth that unbelievers join Cults." Percentages show that those who join these aberrant groups formerly attended Christian Churches. Dr. Paul Martin of Wellspring Retreat (where cultists adjust from their harmful experiences) writes, "Twenty-five percent formerly attended evangelical, fundamental churches. Over 40 % had backgrounds in large, more liberal Protestant denominations." Lately the International Churches of Christ probably have the greatest percentage of Church converts. Because their main goal is to go into the Christian Churches and remove people. Their are 2 categories of cults one is doctrinally the other is sociologically. 1. Almost all cults deny the Apostles creed which consists of the virgin birth, deity of Christ, resurrection, atonement and 2nd coming. they have tendency to pronounce other groups as apostate and they alone have the truth. 3. They devalue or deny the deity of Christ. 4. they have Extra sources of biblical revelation they may use Gods word with something else to interpret it 5. They have salvation by works -either denying gods grace or add into performance. It will not always be easy to spot. Mormons say they are saved by grace-this means from death and not the penalty of sin 6. They will deny a major doctrine Cult like groups take a minor doctrine and make it a major. Ex: you must speak in tongues to be saved. The following are basic patterns, or characteristics, found in almost all cults that one can easily identify. Additions - Cults add to the Word of God by having additional writings they call scripture, or by saying that only the Bible is God's Word but you cannot understand it without their interpretation from their own teachers or books. The Bible is discouraged to be read alone. Subtraction - Cults subtract from the Person of Jesus by saying he is something less than Eternal Deity. Or they will add their own teacher as deity. Multiplication - Every false religion has works as part of their system of salvation. They also usually specify what works must be performed at a certain level for acceptance to their group and God. Mediators- they will always have others involved for ones salvation by others. For the J.W’s it is the 144,000. for the International Churches of Christ its discipleship partners. For Mormons it is to join their church for salvation and use their materials Doctrine and Covenants, Journal of Discourses and the Melchizedek priesthood. Divisive - Cults have people choose by dividing a person's loyalty. Its God through the leadership by claiming to be the only Spokesman or group for God. They also require obedience to their leadership. They do not tolerate another’s differing opinions and it is looked upon as divisive or of the enemy." http://www.letusreason.org/cults.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Are you the Victim of Mind Control? © Spotlight Ministries, Vincent McCann, 2003 www.spotlightministries.org.uk "Although cults differ in their belief systems they all use the same mind control tactics. The purpose of this article is to give you the chance to test yourself to see if you are the victim of well known manipulative mind control techniques. No one single religious group has been singled out in the following questions. Rather, the information below has been gathered with many groups in mind, all of which are known to use mind control on its members. It should also be noted that these questions are not merely limited to religious groups only. There are also many non-religious secular, business, and political groups in existence today which also use mind control on its members. So what have you got to lose, are you willing to take the test? Are You The Victim of a Mind Control Cult? Test Yourself. (Please answer the following questions honestly) Do you feel that no matter how hard you try, the ‘good deeds’ you perform for your group are never quite enough? As a result of this do you often feel plagued with feelings of guilt? What are you motivated by? Is it genuine love for God and the group etc., or is it fear of not meeting the desired standards. Is questioning the group, or the group leaders, discouraged or frowned upon? Does the group you belong to believe that it is an elite and exclusive organisation which alone has ‘the truth’ and answers to life’s questions? Does the group pour scorn upon, attack, and mock other Christian churches and their interpretation of the Bible? Is reading any literature critical of the group discouraged? Many cults will warn members not to read anything critical of the group, especially if written by an ex-member (who are called names by the cult such as “apostate”, “hardened”, or “of the devil” etc.). This is a well known information control technique to stop the member from discovering the clear and documented errors of the cult. Members abilities to think for themselves is effectively disarmed in this way. Instead, they will think more and more as the rest of the group thinks. Take a look at the way the group looks and acts. Does everyone dress more or less the same, act the same, and talk the same? One observer, speaking of his particular involvement with a cult, said that the group encouraged its members “to do everything in exactly the same way - to pray the same, to look the same, to talk the same. This in psychology is a classic example of group conformity. Its purpose is to ensure that no-one tries to act differently or become dissident, thus nobody questions the status quo.” (Andrew Hart, Jan. 1999). Does the group discourage association with non-members (except, maybe, for the possibility of converting them to the group)? Does the group give you ‘black and white answers’? What the group agrees with is right and what the group disagrees with is wrong. Does everyone in the group believe exactly the same things (i.e. what the group leaders tell them to believe)? Is there no room for individual belief, or opinion even in minor areas? Does the group wear ‘two faces’? On the one hand, does it attempt to present itself, to potential converts and the public at large, as a group of people who are like one large family, who have love among themselves, where everyone is equal? But on the other hand, the reality is, that many members inwardly feel unfulfilled and emotionally exhausted? Have you attempted to disable your own God-given critical thinking abilities by ‘shelving’ various doubts about the group or group’s teachings etc. Are others in the group, who do not conform to the requirements of the movement’s teaching, treated with suspicion, and treated like second class members? Does the group tend to withhold certain information from the potential convert? Are the more unusual doctrines of the group not discussed until an individual is more deeply involved in the movement? Do you feel fearful of leaving the group? Many cults use subtle fear tactics to stop members from leaving. For example, the group may imply that those who leave will be attacked by the Devil, have a nasty accident, or at least not prosper because they have left ‘the truth’. If you answered “yes” to most of the questions above, the group that you are involved with is certainly using manipulative mind control techniques. Now that you know this, what will you do? Firstly, you need to realise that whatever group you are part of, it does not have the monopoly on God. For many people in mind control cults, leaving the movement is usually considered the equivalent of leaving God Himself and forfeiting one’s salvation. However, the truth is, that there are Christians in all denominations who have found salvation in Christ alone, and not a Church. Many people who are trapped in a spiritually abusive religious system often feel as though they would have nowhere else to go even if they did manage to make the break from the group. The answer is found in what Jesus said in the Gospel of Matthew Ch. 11 and verse 28: “Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.” Secondly, you need to leave the group. This may be difficult, but by staying you will only continue to be spiritually and mentally abused. You will also be contributing to a system which, in your heart, you know to be wrong. Also, don’t let pride keep you from leaving the group. Thirdly, don’t feel as though you will be alone in your decision to leave. There are many individual’s who have been in the same situation as yourself. These people come from many different religious groups, but have all been victims of the same dominating mind control techniques. Today, many are living new lives of liberty, security, and hope." http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/mctrct.htm | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
THEY TOLD ME THAT IF I LEFT... by Ron Henzel "One of the most insidious features of Spiritual Abuse ... ... is the state of terror in which it leaves so many of its victims. People who flee Spiritual Abuse are in a double-bind: in the very process of fleeing from the oppression that comes from being part of the group, they are terrorized by the threats of the leadership and various members -- threats of dire consequences, punishment from God, and even eternal damnation. Jehovah's Witnesses are told that members who leave the Watchtower Society will be destroyed in Armageddon. Members who leave the International Churches of Christ (also known as the Boston Movement) are told that they will be condemned to eternal torment in Hell. In the group I came out of, the leader kept telling us that no one "prospered spiritually" after leaving, and he not-so-subtly implied that many of them were never really Christians in the first place. (Translation: they're going to Hell.) In one form or another, to one extent or another, spiritually abusive groups elevate affiliation with their "body of believers" to a requirement for salvation -- or at the very least they elevate membership in the group to a requirement for demonstrating that you are a Christian. In either case the result is the same: once you're in, you can't leave -- at least not safely; at least not without jeopardizing your eternal destiny. After spending a sufficient amount of time in these groups, escaping members are often totally defenseless when it comes to this kind of spiritual terrorism. They have come to the point where because they are no longer able to endure the very real fear and torment of being in the group, and they are willing to risk the potential fear and torment of being outside the group. But they frequently leave with the sincere conviction that their departure is a sign that they are going to Hell, and they have no idea how they are going to cope with that. For many going through the exit process, fears of eternal damnation become a constant preoccupation. Once they are fully out, the result is almost always severe depression, and they are sometimes suicidal. As for me: I was too afraid to commit suicide, because all my assurance of salvation had been stripped away by my abusive group, and I didn't want to arrive in Hell any sooner than I had to. I kept praying to God that He would give me whatever it was that I needed (repentance, more faith, etc.) to be assured of salvation long after I left. Another woman who left our group before me remembers drawing a deep breath and saying to herself: "Well, this probably means I'm going to Hell ... but I can't stay!" Another former member moved hundreds of miles away to avoid the inevitable, searing condemnation of the members she left behind, some of whom had been old friends before she joined. Occasionally, someone comes to us who is terror-stricken in this way. Such a person is being tormented by the idea that God has forsaken them because they have left -- or are thinking about leaving -- a particular church, a denomination, a small group, a religious organization, or a local fellowship, and this kind of fear has been instilled in them. Such a person is terrified by the simple fact that they even found this web site. "Perhaps it's a sign of just how far away from God I've fallen!" they might think to themselves. And they sense the tentacles of Satan wrapping around their souls, and the cold hands of death grasping after them. Such a person feels as though he or she is somehow permanently contaminated, damaged goods, poison to all other true Christians. He or she might look for a big church, and then hide in the shadows -- or avoid churches altogether. He or she may have begun to wander numbly through, spiritually aimless, occasionally experiencing deep attacks of dread and panic. "Does God love me?" "Does God even care about me?" "Is it too late for me?" "Please, God -- tell me it's not too late! Just show me what I have to do to know that you love me!" "But it was so nice at first ..." Time and time again we hear the same story: "When I first joined they were so loving, so kind, so united. ... They treated me special. ... I never experienced the kind of things I experienced when I first joined them." And then? "It was so gradual, and so subtle," they tell us. "It was only after many months that I began to dread going to meetings, or getting together with other 'brothers and sisters,' or seeing our leader. But by then, it was too late! They had me convinced that this was a special work of God -- a special movement of God's Spirit -- a prophetic voice for these times. "To leave them was to leave God ... and yet I knew that I just couldn't take it anymore! I was always being rebuked for every move I made. I was always either being the object of harsh treatment, or having to stand by and watch as other people endured harsh treatment. If I ever questioned their judgment, they said it indicated that I was rebellious, carnal, unrepentant. It finally came to the point where I couldn't bring myself to walk through that door anymore ... "But they told me ...!" these people say, "They had told me over and over, even from the early days after I first started coming ... They told me how spiritually dangerous it was to leave. They told me that people only left because their sinfulness was being confronted in the group, and they didn't like it, so they left. I remember hoping that I would never be like them -- and now I am! "They told me that if I left ..." My experience was so much like yours. I know what it's like to go personally through the things I am describing here. So let's look at some of the things spiritual abusers tell us will happen to us if we leave them: "They told me that if I left, I would backslide spiritually." No matter how many Bible verses they quote, no matter how many examples of what happened to other people spiritually after leaving, this is pure bunk, and you don't have to believe it. Many, many groups have a habit of pointing to examples of those who left and went into a spiritual tailspin. But is this a negative reflection on the people who leave, or the group that they left? Much more often than not, when any group can cite a long list of such spiritual casualties, it's a negative reflection upon them rather than a negative reflection on those who left. And yet how cunningly they twist it around! Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided. Unfortunately, we can't see the broken people who lay strewn all around us as a result of these groups, because typically when people leave spiritually abusive groups, they go into hiding and do not want to be found. So all that we have left is the word of the leaders, who testify at length to how "backslidden" these ex-members are. Perhaps they can even come up with particular "sins" these people are guilty of. Some abusive leaders do not go into details about the supposed "sins" these ex-members are guilty of. Instead, they are so confident of their hold over remaining members that they are content to let them draw their own conclusions. Why did they leave? a member asks. They fell away, comes the ready response. End of story. After hearing that explanation enough times, remaining members naturally come to equate leaving with "falling away" from God. But when we examine these ideas under the light of Scripture, that light exposes them for the utter nonsense that they are. We do not come to God by going to a church, to a group, to an organization, or to any other human being on this earth. We come to God by coming to a person. We come to God by coming to Jesus. Jesus Himself said it: ... "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." [John 14:6, New American Standard Bible.] Since we don't come to God by coming to one particular group, it follows that we don't leave God by leaving that group. The only way we can leave God is by leaving Christ, which means renouncing Him, and turning away from the faith. And when we come to Jesus, we don't have to come walking on eggshells. We don't have to wonder if He will accept us. For He also says: "... and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." [John 6:37b, New American Standard Bible.] Jesus does not cast people out who come to Him, or drive them away. That is a key difference between Jesus and spiritually abusive leaders. A favorite verse that spiritual abusers like to quote in order to intimidate people is 1 John 2:16: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. [1 John 1:19, New International Version.] Spiritual abusers will point to this verse and then point to those who have left their so-called "fellowships" or "churches" or whatever, and say, "See! The Bible says that these people were never really Christians in the first place, or they would have remained with us!" But this is a twisting of Scripture. By saying, "they went out from us," John is not referring to one particular church body or group of believers. Instead, he is referring to those who have left the faith itself, and have denied that Jesus is the Son of God (as John points out in verse 22). In fact, the Apostle John is referring to a very specific group of cultists in the early church who were called "Gnostics" (pronounced "NAH-sticks"). These were people who believed that they had "special" spiritual knowledge that other professing Christians did not have -- much the same way that spiritual abusers today claim to have "special" knowledge, "special" gifts, or insight, or callings, or integrity, or whatever. The Gnostics were very self-assured people. They could talk a big talk. They knew how to sound so lofty and spiritual that most people who heard them frankly could not understand them half the time, and they made a practice of questioning the spirituality of Christians in regular churches. Gnostics would sneak into a Christian church, start spreading around a bunch of pseudo-spiritual teachings, and draw little followings around themselves. When people questioned them they would turn-the-tables on them and accuse them of not being "spiritual enough to understand." This had a tendency to make other Christians feel inferior, and rob them of their assurance, which is why the Apostle John spends so much time in 1 John assuring his readers that they are the ones who are really Christians, and not the Gnostics. Eventually these Gnostics would take their little bands and split off to form a new group. It was that situation that the Apostle John was addressing, not the situation of a believer fleeing an abusive group. In fact, were the Apostle John around today, I am convinced that he would find a lot more in common between the old Gnostics and today's spiritual abusers than he would find between the Gnostics and people who leave abusive groups. "They told me that if I left, I would join up with the enemies of God." The leader of one group in Indianapolis, Indiana (USA) constantly warns his followers about "the web of darkness" that is lying-in-wait just outside their little semi-communal congregation. He's not talking about the World Wide Web (although, coincidentally, he discourages his flock from surfing the web because of supposed "spiritual pornography" that is on it, which is supposedly much worse than regular pornography). He's talking about the informal network of ex-members who have either been kicked out or walked out on their own, and who have begun communicating in order to support each other through the terrible process of exit and re-adjustment to the real world outside their little cult. People in the group become conditioned to warnings about "the web of darkness" waiting out there to consume them once they leave. One-by-one as members leave or are kicked out, their reputations are smeared and their characters are assassinated by leader. Most of the time, the leader doesn't have to say hardly anything. The simple fact that he ordered someone to leave is enough to persuade the other members that the person is in some kind of sin. When someone leaves on their own, it is usually preceded by many solemn warnings about "the web of darkness." Then, when it is discovered through the grapevine that an ex-member has been in contact with other ex-members, the remaining members say to each other and themselves, "See! It's inevitable: once you leave the 'spiritual protection' of our group, you fall into 'the web of darkness!'" If it were not for the fact that members take this so seriously, and that it causes ex-members many sleepless nights and many bouts with hysteria, we could write it off as perhaps a very bad joke that is in very poor taste. The goal is obvious: to scare people into staying, and to create a feeling of utter isolation for those who have left or are in the process of leaving. Many people who have leave the group think that while those other people left one day get a phone call from an ex-member, and panic is the inevitable result. "Oh no!" they shudder to themselves, "It's true! I've fallen into 'the web of darkness!' This means that I'm one of them!" People who have recently left an abusive group have been known to refuse calls from ex-members who had been out for a while because of this very fear. This keeps them isolated and afraid, and more likely to return to the group in order to avoid "God's wrath." In my ex-group, the leader spoke of the "network of sick people" who were outside of our group, ready and waiting for us to leave the group so we could "plug back into them." Other leaders use various other metaphors and analogies. It is a very common theme. And a very unbiblical one. There is nothing in the Bible that says you cannot leave one group to join another group of Bible-believing Christians, especially when you have been abused by the group you are leaving. "They told me that if I left, they would have nothing more to do with me." This can be a very painful experience. Sometimes it involves more than friendships, but also involves families. Some families have more than one generation in an abusive group, or sometimes siblings or other relatives join together. In its most extreme form this is referred to as "shunning." Several months before writing this, I was standing at the cash register line of a local Christian bookstore. Eventually I noticed that standing only five or six feet to my right was a woman who was still attending the abusive group I left. A sudden wave of various emotions came over me. Should I try to get her attention? Should I greet her? Should I say anything to her? For a moment I wasn't sure it was her, but I stared at her long enough to assure myself that it was -- and the sheer length of my stare would have been enough to make anyone on the receiving end of it feel uncomfortable. And yet, there she stood, standing as straight as a post, her cold, stony face staring straight ahead, refusing to turn to acknowledge my presence. She was shunning me. She could hardly have avoided seeing me and my wife standing to her left as she approached the counter. She would have had to walk right by us just to get there. I began to scan the rest of the store over my shoulder, and sure enough: I saw her husband not that far away, his back strategically turned toward us, looking at some of the merchandise. Surely at least one of them must have seen us! I thought to myself. They were shunning us. Just as our abusive ex-leader had warned us. Of all the painful experiences of my life, this ranked somewhere near the top of my list. But by this time more than four years had past, and God's healing in my life was working to soften this blow. It is not simply the pain of being cut off from important relationships that is involved here. What makes it all the more traumatic is that those who shun us also blame us. They say things like, "It is you who are shunning us! We are simply acting toward you physically the way you are acting toward us spiritually." They often know how to say just the right thing to confuse us, to turn the tables on us, and to make us feel guilty. But don't believe it. There's not one shred of evidence in the Bible to justify them shunning you simply for leaving their group. They are simply misusing the Bible in a vain attempt to justify their own sinful attitude towards you. "They told me that if I left, I would bring evil into the lives of those around me." Abusive groups are very good at making their members feel like worms on the undersides of slimy rocks. They spend a lot of time and energy working on tearing down any positive or hopeful thoughts that members may have about themselves in order to foster dependence on the leader. It is their association with the group (and ultimately with the leader) that must provide them with feelings of self-worth and adequacy, or the leaders fear they will lose control. Therefore, the leaders tell their members that leaving the group is proof that they never really "cleaned up their act," never really "repented of their sins," never really "saw the Kingdom," never really "understood the Gospel," and so on. This arouses all the conditioning and training to think of themselves as scum-buckets that they received in the group. As a final ploy, if the confession of personal sins was emphasized in the group, the leaders are often known to bring up these past sins, throwing them in the faces of those attempting to leave. As a result, people leave abusive groups with a pervasive feeling of being spiritually contaminated, of being some kind of "spiritual poison" to others, of being "damaged goods." Ex-members who have received this kind of treatment are often known to become reclusive. They may visit other churches, but remain in the shadows to avoid all personal contact with others. Sometimes the leader will even contact the church to which the ex-member has fled, and make all kinds of accusations against the ex-members character. This is what happened in my case. In a letter from my ex-leader to my new pastor in December 1992, my ex-leader made all kinds of false accusations against me, knowing that the group would back up anything he said. The letter even advised my new church to "return" me to the group for "correction!" Fortunately I had a pastor who wasn't born yesterday. He spoke with my ex-leader on the phone, questioned him very carefully, and finally said to him, "So far you have not mentioned anything that would justify Biblical church discipline." My new pastor concluded (correctly) that the real issue was one of disagreement between me and my ex-leader, which my ex-leader was trying to trump up into over-inflated charges of spiritual and moral waywardness. My new pastor told the truth. He accurately appraised the situation, and called it for what it was. This comforted me somewhat, but not entirely, because over the course of my 5-1/2-year involvement in the group, my ex-leader had portrayed almost every pastor outside of his influence as being either "corrupt," or "spiritually immature." What if he was right, and this was just one more pastor who didn't know what he was talking about, and should have listened to my ex-leader? What if I really was some kind of backslidden Christian who needed to be disciplined? Recovering from Spiritual Abuse is not simply recovering from a single issue, but recovering from a whole complex of issues that all connect to each other. It takes time to track down each one and disconnect it from your thinking, but over time you can do it. Meanwhile: when they tell you that by leaving their group you will hurt others, just remember how much they hurt you. Would Jesus treat you that way? I don't think so. "They told me that if I left, something terrible would happen to me." In one group, the leader spends a great deal of time recounting unfortunate incidents that overtook ex-members after they left his group. Some of them got into car accidents. One man broke his arm. All of these things were supposed to be "God's wake-up calls," warning these people to return. In another group, an ex-member reported that she had been viciously assaulted. A short while later she received a letter from the group which said, in summary: "What did you expect? You left the spiritual protection of the group!" This is yet another ungodly threat that spiritual abusers use to manipulate people and try to keep them under their control. Satan and his demons are out there waiting, lurking, seeking out people to devour -- and if you leave this group, God is going to let he get you! This is a gross and cruel distortion of Biblical truth. Yes, Satan is out there. And yes, he's pretty hungry for Christians (and others) to spiritually devour -- not necessarily physically. Satan's primary goal is to turn us against God, not to make us sick, injured or dead. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of Scripture. But let me ask you something: do you believe that Jesus is God in human flesh (John 1:1), and that he died for your sins and rose again (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)? If that's the case, then you are a person who is indwelt by God's Holy Spirit (John 14:17). God is in you -- and as the Apostle John teaches us, this means that we do not need to live in fear of Satan: You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. [1 John 4:4, New International Version of the Bible.] In order for Satan to do serious spiritual harm to a believer, it would take far more than that believer to leave some group. God would have to leave the believer -- and that will never happen, for the Bible says: ... God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." [Hebrews 13:5b, New International Version of the Bible.] If some professing Christian leader or anyone else tells you that if you leave their group Satan is going to get you --- tell them to buzz off! REST ministries About Rest Ministries What is "spiritual abuse?" "They told me that if I left ..." "Is my child in a cult?" Resources for recovery Copyright © 1997 REST ministries, All Rights Reserved. Comments? Questions? Our email address is restministries@geocities.com. This page hosted by . Get your own Free Home Page. "They told me that if I left, I would go to Hell." This list of things that they tell us when we leave all began with the threat that we would backslide if we left our spiritually abusive group. The other threats on this list are those that frequently follow the first threat: that they would shun us, that God would "get" us, and now, finally, that we'll probably end up in Hell. But have you noticed how the first threat (of backsliding) is reinforced by the other threats? Ask yourself the question: if you were being shunned by your Christian friends who told you that God was about to whomp on you and send you to Hell -- wouldn't that increase your chances of backsliding? Now, no Christian should ever desire for his or her brother or sister to backslide into sin, and yet that's exactly the kind of system that spiritual abusers set up -- one designed to encourage those who leave the group to backslide! They remove every spiritual support, and inform their victims that they will fail. It's obvious that they are treating the person who leaves like an enemy (at least by any Biblical standard), and yet that's not exactly how the Bible tells us we are supposed to treat our enemies. Spiritual Abuse sets up a system in which members become totally dependent upon the leadership. Therefore it is impossible for the leadership to endorse any kind of independence on the part of the membership. So when one of his members starts displaying independence, the leader has to find some explanation -- either the person is just going through a rebellious phase and will eventually come back (after a lot of scolding and threats, of course), or the person is really lost forever. Often a leader will go through a whole list of "warnings," similar to the ones listed above, and if those do not produce the desired response, the leader tells his flock, "Well, if we were really dealing with a Christian here, he would have listened to my warnings. Since he hasn't listened, he must be a doomed reprobate." (Translation: he's going to Hell.) Threat of eternal damnation is, of course, the ultimate weapon in the spiritual abuser's arsenal. If that doesn't work, what will? Probably nothing, and he knows it. But it is a weapon that is not so much designed to bring you back, as it is to keep others from leaving. Remember: the spiritual abuser tries to frighten you because he is frightened. He lives in constant fear of exposure. He desperately wants to avoid being exposed to outside scrutiny, but he also wants to avoid being discovered as a fraud by his own flock. He dreads the day when they will discover that the emperor has no clothes. Consigning you to the flames is his way of trying to bar the doors against any further escapes from his control. Not every abusive leader uses this weapon to the same extent. The more clever the abuser, the more he will save it for strategic occasions. For example: if someone was especially high up in the pecking order of the group, and that person leaves, the leader is more likely to pronounce the judgment of Hell. But the simple fact is -- Biblically speaking -- you don't have to put up with it. "They didn't tell me that if I left ..." There are some things that some abusive groups (not all of them) do that they do not warn you about. They do these things to cause further confusion in the minds of people who are leaving them. Sometimes they assign a member to call you on the phone and ask you to come back. This is confusing because this kind of phone call often comes on the heals of repeated attacks on the character of the departing member. There have even been occasions when someone has been consigned to Hell by the leader, and afterwards they get one of these pleading phone calls. Sometimes the ex-members will encounter their ex-leader, or other group members, and actually have a pleasant experience. The ex-leader may say something that sounds encouraging, and they may exchange hugs. The ex-leader may even admit to some wrongdoing -- although it is usually a very non-specific admission. I have received two letters of apology from my ex-leader since leaving my abusive group. After receiving the first letter, the wrote me again to tell me that when he apologized the first time, he didn't have anything specific in mind. After receiving the second letter of apology, the leader renewed his personal attacks on me via the Internet. This type of behavior is attributable to one basic fact: your ex-leader is afraid of you, and he fears that his techniques for making you afraid of him are not working. You are a former-insider in his group. You know what really goes on in there. You know how people are really treated. You are dangerous to him, because you can tell others. Bottom line: that's what all of this is really all about. "They told me that if I left ..." In the final analysis, they tell you these things to make you afraid. They want to make you afraid of God, afraid of Satan, afraid of others (the "enemies of God;" the shunning of the group), and afraid of yourself. They want to leave you with nowhere to turn except back to them. Your ex-leader may have filled you with so many fears that for a while it seems as though everyhwere you look you find some confirmation of his warnings. For most people, recovering from this kind of bondage is a long process. The bondage itself is a form of conditioning. You developed very strong, habitual thinking patterns in this group which in many cases cannot be cured overnight. You need to work at relaxing (no matter what your ex-leader said). Depending on your physical condition, you should consider seeing a medical doctor. You need to give yourself time to heal. One step in the healing process is to realize that you're not alone, that this scam has been perpetrated on many others besides you -- some of them much more intelligent than you or I. You're not alone. The sheer fact that these tactics are so common among such a wide variety of clearly abusive groups might help you see that they can't be of God. Another step in the healing process is to ask yourself some simple questions: do loving Christians try to make people afraid of leaving them? Do loving Christians refuse to allow people to disagree with them over non-essential issues under the pain of eternal damnation? Do loving Christians hound people, even after they've left?" http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9575/theytold.html | ||
| Anonymous (68.251.106.33) |
Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 01:21 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RB- I am truly sorry to see how much this board upsets you. That was never my intent. I only want to inform others who are interested about my experiences with NTCC. And people can take the information or leave it. It's their choice. But they SHOULD have that choice! When I joined, there was no information, from any source, of any kind. Had there been, I would have thought long and hard before deciding to attend the school in Graham. I am thankful to NTCC because it was through an NTCC that I first heard the salvation message and got saved. And I will never forget that. I don't think anyone here has said NTCC is non-Christian. I think the main concern everyone has is the authoritarian nature of the church. And I'm sorry if that upsets you. >Quote from 24.2.139.168 (Person who is making all the noise here, just look) this in other folder of NTCC. Notice he said this was where he or she first heard the salvation message and that he never said that NTCC was non-christian but now he suggests they are a cult. Sound pretty double minded to me. | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
I never said they were a cult. And I DO believe that there are genuine Christians in NTCC, without a doubt. But above you find all the signs of a cult or a spiritually abusive group, whatever you want to call it. Hey, if the shoe fits... | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
I thought it might be interesting to point out here that there IS such a thing as a "bible-based cult." Here is one definition I found: "THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT' A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not. Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic. This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches. These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or someone's particular writings. They centre around the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider non-essential doctrines e.i. not salvation issues (such as the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they will be using mind control or undue influence on their members." http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Maybe that is what we are looking at, a Bible-based cult? I don't know. Is there reason for concern? You tell me. New Testament Christian Church DOES seem to fit a lot, if not all, of these characteristics... | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
"OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS (a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy. (b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL. HOW THEY DO THIS 1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God. 2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work. 3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process. 4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their "ministry". At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money. 5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process. 6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do. 7. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal. 8. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained. 9. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for their "spiritual welfare". They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment. 10. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this. Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group. SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:- 1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told. 2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered. 3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata, not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money to the group for some reason. 4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a "means to an end". 5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion. 6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a period of time through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt". RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE 1. PERSONALITY CHANGES Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders. 2. LOSS OF IDENTITY They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life. 3. PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "true Christian" or "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right". 4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for themselves when they leave. Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders eyes. They become very naive about life in general. 5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself. This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more guilt. SUMMARY Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree." Copyright 1985 Jan Groenveld Freedom In Christ, PO Box 2444, Mansfield, 4122, Australia http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult | ||
| Anonymous (24.2.139.168) |
Uncovering Churches that Abuse People The following questions come from the book: Recovering from Churches That Abuse, by Ronald Enroth, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Zondervon, 1994. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Does a member’s personality generally become stronger, happier, more confident as a result of contact with the group? In an abusive church, the use of guilt, fear, and intimidation to control members is likely to produce members who have a low self-image, who feel beaten down by legalism, who have been taught that asserting oneself is not spiritual. One of the first disturbing characteristics to be reported by relatives and friends of members of these churches is a noticeable change in personality, usually in a negative direction. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. Do members of the group seek to strengthen their family commitments? Nearly all unhealthy churches attempt to minimize the commitments of their members to their family, especially parents. Young people may be told that they now have a new “spiritual” family, complete with leaders who will “re-parent” them. Church loyalty is seen as paramount, and family commitments are discouraged or viewed as impediments to spiritual advancement. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3. Does the group encourage independent thinking and the development of discernment skills? Control-oriented leaders attempt to dictate what members think, although the process is so spiritualized that members usually do not realize what is going on. A pastor or leader is viewed as God’s mouth piece, and in varying degrees a member’s decision making and ability to think for oneself are swallowed up by the group. Pressure to conform and low tolerence for questioning make it difficult to be truly discerning. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. Does the group allow for individual differences of belief and behaviour, particularly on issues of secondary importance? A legalistic emphasis on keeping rules and a focus on the need to stay within prescribed boundaries is always present in unhealthy spiritual envionments. Lifestyle rigidity in such groups increase a member’s guilt feelings and contributes to spiritual bondage. This rigidity is often coupled with an emphasis on beliefs that would not receive great attention in mainstream evangelicalism. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5. Does the group encourage high moral standards both among members and between members and non members? In intense, legalistic churches and religious organizations, the official, public proclamations usually place special value on high moral standards. In some instances, there is a double standard between those in leadershp and those in the rank and file membership. Abusive churches tend to have incidents of sexual misconduct more often than most conventonal churches; leaders sometimes exhibit an obsessive interest in matters relating to sex. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6. Does the group’s leadership invite dialogue, advice and evaluation from outside its immediate circle? Authoritarian pastors are usually threatened by any outside expression of diverse opinions, whether from inside or outside the group. When outside speakers are given access to the pulpit, they are carefully selected to minimize any threat to the leadership’s agenda. Coercive pastors are fiercely independent and do not function well in a structure of accountability. For the sake of public relations, they may boast that they are accountable to a board of some sort, when in actuality the board is composed of “yes-men” who do not question the leader’s authority. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 7. Does the group allow for development in theological beliefs? Another hallmark of an authoritarian church is its intolerance of any belief system different from its own. They tend to measure and evaluate all forms of Christian spirituality according to their own carefully prescribed system, adopting an “us-versus-them” mentality. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 8. Are group members encouraged to ask hard questions of any kind? A cardinal rule of abusive systems is “Don’t ask questions, don’t make waves.” A healthy pastor welcomes even tough questions. In an unhealthy church disagreement with the pastor is considered to be disloyalty and is tantamount to disobeying God. People who repeatedly question the system are labelled “rebellious”, “unteachable”, or “disharmonious to the body of Christ”. Persistent questioners may face sanctions of some kind such as being publicly ridiculed, shunned, shamed, humiliated, or disfellowshiped. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 9. Do members appreciate truth wherever it is found even if it is outside their group? Whether they admit it or not, abusive churches tend to view themselves as spiritually superior to other Christian groups. This religious elitism allows little room for outside influences. There can be no compromise with external sources, who, the leadership will say, really don’t understand what is going on in the ministry anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 10. Is the group honest in dealing with nonmembers, especially as it tries to win them to the group? Sometimes abusive groups illustrate a “split-level religion”. There is one level for public presentation and another for the inner circle of membership. The former is a carefully crafted public relations effort, the latter a reality level experienced only by the “true believers”. Recruitment tactics are usually intense, even if they are not actually deceptive or fraudulent, they can be manipulative or exploitive. Sometimes high pressure religious groups are evasive about there true identity: “We really don’t have a name, we’re just Christians.” A healthy Christian group should have no qualms about revealing who it is and what its intentions are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11. Does the group foster relationships and connections with the larger society that are more than self-serving? First impressions are not always correct. Sustained contact with an unhealthy church, however, will usually reveal a pattern that is consistent with the characteristics we have identified. Members will be requested to serve, to become involved, to sign up for a variety of activities that, upon closer inspection, appear to maintain the system and serve the needs of the leadership. Abusive churches thrive on tactics that promote dependency. Emphasizing obedience and submission to leaders, these churches often require a level of service that is overwhelming to members, resulting in emotional turmoil and spiritual breakdowns. | ||
| doug (66.96.65.225) |
In your group, do you see that… • Leadership is excessively esteemed? We all look up to our leaders. So I guess we should stop looking up to the President of the U.S., Special Forces and such in the military, policemen, fireman and preachers who watch for our souls. • Leaders are not accountable to members? If they are doing Gods will, why do they need to tell us everything they do and why? Besides, the leaders of NTCC do share with the congregation many times the reasons for things and why they are doing them. They even use the Bible. • You are led to think that good solid teaching outside this group is rare? I was never led to think this. Perhaps in your own thinking that is what you believed. Many groups teach about Jesus and salvation which is great. Yet not all have their teachings correct. I believe NTCC is the closest to correct teachings from all the other places I have read or heard from. This does not mean the other churches will not go to heaven, but a person is accountable to the amount of light they have received. Even if there were no Bibles and we were stuck on an island and you were saved, Gods Spirit would still lead you to do / not do, as well as think certain ways. • The group wants you to give as much time as you possibly can to their activities? No they don't. They want me to serve God and put Him first. Everything else will fall into place. It has been said and is still said, if you don't want to participate in an activity don't come. • There is a legalistic emphasis on external behaviors which results in loss of focus on Jesus? No. But please bear with my spirtually abused mind a little further. You may have lost your focus on Jesus and began to view the teachings as legalistic. But if you focus on Jesus, those teachings will fall into place without anyone having to say anything. Remember the desert island above? There are alot of things I have done or not done and no one had to say anything to me about them. Somehow, they fall in line with the Bible. Hmmmm....maybe the Bible is abusive? (sarcasm... smile for once) :p • Guilt is an important emotional lever for producing compliance and conformity? Guilt comes from within a person. No one can make you feel guilty unless you allow them. • There is a feeling that there isn’t any security outside the group? No. But I do have a knowledge that there isn't any security outside of Jesus! Praise the Lord ! • “Confidentiality” is used to isolate members from each other? I don't know what you mean by this one jellybean. • There is control over channels of communication and information, and that some teachings and/or policies are kept secret? What exactly are you talking about? Can you give an example? What is kept secret? How is control kept over channels of communication and information? What teachings? Be specific. Answer the question with a definite fact. Don't answer with your feelings. Let me in on it. • Members need extensive accountability to other men to be led to Christian maturity? When was this ever taught. I do know the Bible says (Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"). Why would you not seek the help of someone who has been down the road you're traveling? Besides, what accountability are you talking about? There is extensive accountability anywhere you go be it a job or whatever. Everyone has to answer to someone. • Criticism, analytical thinking, free exchange of opinion, and an opportunity to verify facts are sometimes denied? This is not true. If something is said or taught and it is true in accordance with the Bible, what is need to be verified? Besides, if you do feel the need to verify something you can ask the Pastor and he'll answer your question. He won't run and hide. • Individuality is perceived to be bad, conformity and uniformity as good? Survey says! "buzzzzz" (wrong). you'll find all types of personalities at NTCC. No one is told to only wear a certain hairdo or a certain color suit, tie, shoes, or underoos. Maybe you're just an open rebel, I don't know. I happen to be highly individual. I don't know how at the same time I fall into Biblical standards. This is a mystery. Find a book on that one and let me know. • You are to ignore your inner self and instead trust authority? HA! (as Alf used to say). you are to trust God and His Spirit. • Gatherings are a matter of commitment; you’re not simply free to decide? You are free to decide. Don't go if you don't want to be there is said many times. • Attendance at all community gatherings usually takes precedence over visiting family and friends? Danielson, you must first paint the fence to understand. You can visit family and friends however much you want to. My own personal experience (this is not the churches) is that NTCC is my family. Yes, I have a mom and talk to her and such, but the Spirit of God isn't there. Just like you don't want to hang out with a group of punk rockers, I choose and desire to be with the members of NTCC. We are free to choose who we hang out and for how long. • There are weddings in which the group is more involved than the couples’ own families? That is by the couples own choice. If I were to get married, I don't care to have some long drawn out wedding which my family would prefer. I don't even want a large one in the church. Just the preacher and my wife is enough for me. Maybe I should yell that "THAT IS THE COUPLES OWN CHOICE" • “Something bad” might happen if you leave the group? Not the group, but something bad might happen if you leave God. Be it immediately or years later. There is a verse that talks about this but I don't know it by heart. Besides, you don't want Bible anyway. You just want to gripe and whine. • Often carrying out certain agreed-to actions becomes a sign of one’s commitment? Like what actions specifically? • The group environment (shaped by legalism) breeds a critical, judgmental spirit? If a person has this kind of spirit, then they aren't a Christian. I don't have that kind of spirit. Do you? • There is sometimes concealment of, or coloration of, the truth about why members left or were asked to leave? Why are you concerned why someone left? Yes there is some curiosity but who cares? I'm gelling! not really. Jesus said "What is that to thee? Follow thou me". Oops! I hope I didn't get you too upset by using the Bible. • Leaders overwhelm newcomers with love, acceptance, and lots of attention at the onset? So does God. Sorry for using the Bible, but there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth than over 99 just persons. • Teachings use layers of truth, revealing existing policies a step at a time? I am about to run out of time. I'll comment later. • Members’ self-worth and hope for salvation are tied to staying in the group? No. It is tied to staying with God. If you stay with God, His Spirit will lead you to this church as they preach the truth. If you want the truth. • Healthy relationships (with friends who have left the group) are not to be continued after they have left? Healthy? I would like to continue a relationship with some but if all they do is bite and devour and find fault and complain and will tell me i am being manipulated and spirtually abused, why would i want to hang out with you? this will have to be continued ! later. • Legitimate goals and dreams of members are often reshaped? • The prevailing attitude is that objections and questions from members stems not from reasoned and fairly objective analysis but rather from the person’s spiritual or emotional problems? • Making a choice other than the one recommended by leaders is usually thought unwise or rebellious? • Dating and courtship are highly controlled? • Most members believe they are only to date/marry other members? • Group demands so much time that little is left to pursue old friendships outside the group? • There is a general mistrust of others outside the group? This is just a part of the list in the back of this book. | ||
| Anonymous (68.251.110.169) |
JOB 38:1-3 “Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.” HOLD YOUR FIRE EVERYONE! For the Record: New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc., also called New Testament Christian Church is one of the most wonderful churches available today. Among this church it is well known that we don’t consider ourselves to be the “only ones saved”, and we also know that, more and more, in churches of today, the world and the saints are without distinction. Churches as godly as this one are certainly rare nowadays, but weren’t so rare 50 years ago. Proper and modestly attired, we endeavor to reflect Christ and find it not rigid, but satisfying to the Holy Ghost that is with us and in us. Most people, who attend or visit, are amazed at the spirit of love and concern that is present in the services and congregation. Equally amazing is the integration of all races, mixed couples and various ages all worshipping together. The literally thousands of positive experiences in NTCC far outweigh the few negatives. I encourage all NTCC members to post their wonderful experiences which they have had in these churches, without vainly attempting to correct the gainsayers. The internet is a wonderful tool and part of life today. It is openly known that NTCC people use it, without correction from the leadership. The church doesn’t advocate all material that is available through this medium however. I have had the privilege of being associated with this church for a long time, and personally know the board members and faculty and many of the people that attend their churches. I am also a minister of long time attendance, and still enthused about the wonderful things God continues to do among His people. The standards set forth are presented in love and power of the Holy Ghost, and are the requirements of God as set forth in the bible. Anything that is said, that is not based upon the bible, is openly set forth as such. | ||
| Anonymous (4.242.251.57) |
Here is the NTCC Doctrinal statement as it appears in the Trumpet and available to any that would ask at their local Church. THE DOCTRINAL STATEMENT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN CHURCHES OF AMERICA, INCORPORATED As Christian believers of the New Testament Christian Churches of America, Incorporated, we make the following declaration of the things which are "Believed Among Us" (Luke 1:1), so as, there will be no division or differences among us, and that all our churches preach, teach, and proclaim the following, doing so in love and by direction of the Holy Spirit, and by the Word of God. I - THE SCRIPTURES We believe that the Scriptures, (The Bible), are the inspired Word of God, and that they are to be taught and believed in their entirety - (II Timothy 3:15) (II Peter 1:21); that the Scriptures will give us a complete revelation of God's divine plan of Salvation and His will toward man, and that this is to constitute the complete rule of Christian Faith and the practice of the same. II - THE GODHEAD Our God is a Trinity - manifested in three distinct Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being co-existent, co-equal, and co-eternal. III - SALVATION Salvation for man, (which is fallen from his perfect and sinless state through Adam), is attained by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ His Son, by His death upon the cross, through the Holy Spirit's conviction, by repentance, and through an experience of the New Birth. This is accomplished by grace, and is made effectual through faith in Jesus Christ by accepting Him as our Personal Saviour. (Titus 2:11)(Romans 10:13-15)(Titus 3:5-7) IV - THE CHURCH We believe that the Church is the Body of Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:18), and that Jesus is the Head (Ephesians 4:15). Its earthly members are made up of believers, born again by the Spirit (John 3:6), and by the Word. (I Peter 1:23). To the Church is delegated authority, instructions, offices, and rules to govern it, and its members, so as to allow it to fulfill its missions in the fulfillment of Christ's great commission. (Matthew 28:19)(Mark 16:15-20) V - MINISTRY God, through the Holy Spirit, definitely calls and sets aside such as He desires to serve as Ministers of the Gospel. No one should under any circumstances be ordained to any office unless the calling is distinct and evident. VI - WATER BAPTISM Baptism in water is by immersion, and is a direct commandment of our Lord (Matthew 28:19), and is for believers only. (Romans 6:4)(Colossians 2:12)(Acts 8:36-39) VII - BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11), is a gift from God, as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ, to all believers in this dispensation, and is received subsequent to the New Birth. (John 14:16-17) (Acts 1:8; 2:4; 2:38-39). The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is accompanied with the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance, this being the initial physical sign and evidence. (Acts 2:4) VIII - SANCTIFICATION The Word of God (The Bible) teaches that without holiness no man can or shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). We believe the Doctrine of Sanctification to be a definite, yet a progressive work of grace in the believer's life, starting at the time of the born again experience in the believer's life. (Hebrews 13:12) (II Thessalonians 2:13) (I Peter 1:2) (Ephesians 5:26) (John 17:17) (I Corinthians 6:11) (I Thessalonians 5:23) IX - THE LORD'S SUPPER We believe that the ordinance of The Lord's Supper is a commandment of our Saviour, and that its time or frequency of observance is left to the discretion of each congregation. (I Corinthians 11:26) X - DIVINE HEALING Healing is for the physical ills of the human body. It is wrought by God, through the power of God, by the laying on of hands and by prayer, through faith. (Mark 16:18) (James 5:14-15) XI - THE COMING OF THE LORD We hold that the coming of the Lord is imminent and is the blessed hope of the Church. We also hold that the rapture is to occur prior to the tribulation. XII - RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND UNJUST The Scriptures teach that the just, (those born again, being justified by Jesus Christ) shall be raised by Jesus Christ unto eternal life and rewards. The unjust, (those who have rejected Jesus and His plan of salvation), shall be raised to judgement and eternal punishment. XIII - HELL When one dies in his sins without Christ, he is hopelessly and eternally lost in the Lake of Fire, and therefore has no more opportunity of receiving Christ as Saviour, being eternally lost. (Hebrews 9:27) The Lake of Fire is literal, (Revelation 19:20) and the words eternal and everlasting describe the duration of the punishment of those that are lost. XIV - RELATION TO WAR We believe that our government was and is established by God, and whereas we are thankful to the government of the United States of America, for the freedom to worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and whereas we understand and believe that the Word of God does not command or teach, either by example or statement, that we should not protect or defend our way of life: be it resolved that during time of war or necessity, we will serve our government, bear arms, protect our citizens from enemies who try to overthrow our government and our country, and to serve in whatever role necessary. XV - TITHES We recognize the scriptural duty of all people, as well as ministers, to pay tithes unto the Lord. (Hebrews 7:8) Tithes should be used for the support of the active ministry and for the propagation of the Gospel and work of the Lord, and are not to be given to charity or used for other purposes. (Malachi 3:7-11) (Hebrews 7:2) (I Corinthians 9:7-11; 16:2) | ||
| Lover_of_Souls (66.42.240.62) |
Fault finding: SIN Back biting: SIN Gossiping: SIN Being a busy body: SIN Lying: SIN You must REPENT to go to heaven It is not my concern why you left New Testament Christian Churches of America. I am a Holy Ghost filled, heaven bound Christian who is concerned about you and your soul. From what I can tell of this all,you are here to HURT the people of this church. You are here ingaging in all that is listed here. I feel a great concern for you in my heart. The Bible gives standards to live by and I have to say that just from what I have read here, you have not lived up to them. I can see sharing information on books or what ever. But if you are saved than you know that this is WRONG. How can you talk about people in such a way?? You say that you are not calling their church a cult and than you list all this mess for people to read. If someone is new in Christ and goes to this chruch and than happens to find this forum, you can make a person afraid to attend chruch again. Not only the church mentioned here, but any church. They will question God and the Bible. I am very concerned that your good intentions will come to haunt you if not here than in a place I pray that you do not go. There is a judgement day someday as you must know, you must be careful as to how you live here. I have taken a lot of space and will leave. Please pray to the God of heaven for help. (The God you know that other people serve, people in this church as well as others). You have said that there are people who are Christians in the aboved named church, if you are as you say you are, saved. Than does it not bother you to HURT others and make an attack on the people who go to the above named chruch?? Thank you A concerned Christian (from a far) | ||
| The_WHIRLWIND (69.29.192.227) |
Monday, June 07, 2004 - 07:27 pm ________________________________________ JOB 38:1-3 “Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.” HOLD YOUR FIRE EVERYONE! This is not the voice of God, only the voice of reason, thank you. You wanted to know my name so here it is; T h e W h I r l w I n d . Heheh. Maybe you will know our names when we get a special invitation to the Secret Linda Lamblin Lobby Website. I’m sure da Lord is blessin’ over there. I feel that sincere readers should know the manner of people writing the negative commentary and the real reasons why they departed from among this congregation of saints and godly people. I do not wish to attack others, nor harm them in any way. Otherwise you would never hear any of this, and none of it is confidential, as Linda called it. ??? I wish to God these people would admit to the readers why they REALLY left NTCC, or the best case, drop it all. It wasn’t charity or rules. All that has been debunked yet they persist with their agenda. I am cutting the heart out of this, because it would be too scathing. I you people can lie about us, we can tell the truth about all of you, but I refrain from my first objective. I just don’t have to heart to follow through on it. God bless all the brothers and sisters of NTCC that have fought valiantly for their church, and told the truth, doing an excellent job of stating the way it really is. God forgive those who trespass against us, for they know not what they do. With this post regrettably I shall leave you, a good idea for all of us. No one is listening, so why don't we do as RP said "stop". This is it for me, let's go on, its all been said. I will not go on to each of the others one by one as planned. They have ceased, lets leave it alone. Amen. I reiterate: For those who, in anger, passed by this on my previous entry; “It grieves me to post the following things. However, since the things I will be posting here are expositions of the “truth”, (not as I see it, but as many have validated with their positive testimonies), it must be said. I regret any heaviness this may invoke.” This was an SINCERE apology an advance, for it is very difficult to be like the Linda Lobby. I also apologized at the end of post#1. If I was mistaken about the child, I beg your mercies and apologize for any hurt I’ve caused. Nicole, you are a sweet girl and I’m sorry I hurt you. If people at Graham shunned you and your Mom, they need to meet the man. Your family wasn’t disfellowshipped and tried to harm no one that I know of. Vic, it truly wasn’t my intention, and it was only inserted due to your mentioning in your previous post, the church being to blame for them not “turning out correctly”. I’m unsure why you said they are deficient in some way, because of us. What ever. Hopefully you see in them no such fault. FYI- I didn’t read the salty reply, it really was too far gone for me. (Too many “sixth letters of the alphabet”). Dan Fowler, I apologize if I offended you sir. Your post was ring-bologna, but you deserve to have your say. When sin breaks up a marriage, no one’s been “lambasted”, only helped. NTCC has nothing to do with people’s divorces. We get the bible, and make our own choices. This is well known. No one knew about your mess, and you could have gotten help. You were getting together with the other couple regularly without “permission” (gasp!) and maybe if you had followed that, there would have been no lust between her and the other man. Hmmmmm. Rules ain’t so bad. And they have reasons. Apologies to Vick about the mistake. No offense. NOW: Therefore this is not posted for the purpose of “throwing out accusations” as Linda said we “have NO RIGHT” to do. Only she and the “shunnee” Indians reserve that right. Strange that YOU LIE ABOUT GOOD PEOPLE and call it “informing the public”, and when we tell your TRUE motives and disclose detail of your un-Christ-like departures and that’s called vicious attacks and lies. There are multitudinous testimonies of wonderful things on this board, drowning out your cries of “foul”. To “R” and “Ryan” (Ryan DeJongue and Sarah a.k.a. 24.2.139.168 Ryan, you work at “World Vision”, and THAT’s why you REALLY left. You had a ‘world vision’ alright, but not for charitable purposes. You were scarcely gone and you were coming out of a video store when the brother encountered you. Did they play alright on your TV set? Even sinners denounce TV as a filth tube, disallowing children from its usage, and it is nowhere near as controllable as a DVD player. IT doesn’t need discs. Sorry to say this, I don’t wish to hurt you. You agreed to the rules of the seminary, yet have knowingly implied that they are forced on others, when they are not. Your “counsels” are “without knowledge”. You have no knowledge of what people personally give or how they made their livings. I have seen Pastor Davis give money to plenty of people when they were down, and some NOT down. Not church money, but his own. Some of the people he has helped wrote this ‘dark counsel without knowledge’. Including Veronica Medina. Tell who and how much if you know!?? What did you give? You could have called the office straightened out the disparity on your tithe statement. You and Mick have mocked the office of the anointed and those that hold it. Shall you be guiltless? Answer biblically. You can’t. You flatter yourself concerning your great intellect and articulation. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. Say that Pastor Davis is of the devil. If you can’t, then he is of God. If he IS a man of God, you have a serious problem on your hands. Thus saith ME not. Its obvious from your wife’s bitter testimonial that her hair is gone, she’s at work wearing men’s clothing and still bitter over rules (which are for seminary students ONLY, and which she agreed to, prerequisite to bible school entry.) She almost has herself convinced that she is right. Brother, this is not the fault of a church. “And I have not reported one untrue thing”. (sarah dejongue). Not in caps, sorry….that implies deity acc. To your husband. This is one untrue thing you said. YOU WANTED THE WORLD, AND YOU WENT TO GET IT, SIMPLE. You aren’t UNSAVED because you left. Why don’t you come back to God brother, and get your lives in order, apologize to Pastor, and let the love of God fill you once more. Grant it Jesus. Wash in the blood of the Lamb and let Him put away evil communication from your lips. Jesus loves you and so do the brethren here. No matter what you say, we will “stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free.” Jude 8: “Like wise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, DESPISE DOMINION, and speak evil of dignities.” 9- “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst (DARED) not bring against him a railing accusation but said “The Lord Rebuke Thee”. 10: “But these speak evil of those things which they know not; but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.” 11: Woe unto them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.” 12: “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water,” etc. 16: “These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persona in admiration because of advantage.” Jude 17-But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.” Take care everyone! P.S.Here’s a few final slices of bologna from Sarah Dejongue in her posts in another folder;She is the embittered author of this multitude of pages attacking this Church of the Living God.......and she just said a few posts back..... Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 01:11 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I never said they were a cult. And I DO believe that there are genuine Christians in NTCC, without a doubt. But above you find all the signs of a cult or a spiritually abusive group, whatever you want to call it. Hey, if the shoe fits... " THAT'S THE POINT...THE SHOE DOESN'T FIT. SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?? AGAIN; “Anyway, that’s irrelevant. As I’ve said many times throughout this board, I am thankful for NTCC because it was there that I first heard the gospel message. And I thank God for that! But I had to move on when God led me to do so. To all the current members of NTCC, don’t worry! IF WHAT WE HAVE SAID IS LIES AS YOU ALL ADAMANTLY CLAIM, THEN THAT WILL BE OBVIOUS TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY VISIT YOUR CHURCH. But if what we have spoken is truth that will be obvious as well…” Hmmmmm. That’s right…..when you get there, you will definitely see how wonderful is really is. GLORY! "Let him that is athirst, come" (Rev.22:17)Amen "just me" and "lover of souls". Praise be unto the Lord for all His many blessings.....I was thirsty for God and sick of sin, and I thank God NTCC was there when I needed it (God that is) and I'm still tasting that goodness and I appreciate the men of our board and their spotless examples. Out of here. | ||
| Sarah (24.2.139.168) |
Just so everyone here can read my "bitter testimonial..." I stated on the other thread I was done posting here. And I am done, unless of course there are more things said directly about me which I feel need to be addressed. Friday, June 04, 2004 - 11:35 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello everyone. I’ve been posting anonymously all along, even though I know I wasn’t truly anonymous! Many knew that it was me. But I’m not afraid to post my name anymore. I know I don’t have anything to hide. My name is Sarah DeJonghe. I would like to tell about my own story with NTCC, although it won’t be as heart wrenching as some of the others. I was raised as a Catholic from a child and never really heard about the salvation message. I joined the Navy at 18 (1994) and left home to see the world. Like so many others in the military, I got caught up in the night life/party life (I’ll spare you all the details). I soon grew weary of that. On Christmas night in 1996 (Okinawa, Japan), I got invited out to a church service at New Testament Christian Church. Because I was searching for something in my life, I decided to give it a try. I heard Jesus preached and I prayed for salvation that night. I was ready and I got saved. Praise the Lord! My entire life changed. My own parents thought for sure I had joined a cult because of the drastic changes in my life. But I knew that just wasn’t so. I was happy, thrilled, in love with God and the people of God. I loved my pastor and my pastor’s wife. I decided to apply for Bible school within three months of getting saved. Because I was getting out of the military soon, I knew I had to go. After all, there were no NTCC’s back home where I was from (Massachusetts). To go home to a state where there was no “true church” would be dangerously close to throwing away all that God had done for me. So I got accepted and was off to Graham, Washington in 1997. Upon arriving, I did sign a paper saying I would abide by all the rules of the school (even though I didn’t know what they were yet). I didn’t even care. I trusted these people and loved them, even though I didn’t really know them. In my first orientation, I learned just what all the rules were. And there were rules for just about EVERYTHING! I wondered at it, but just shrugged my shoulders. Who cares? These are the people of God. I knew where I belonged. No one else thought there was anything strange about it. Who was I to question it? After all, I had been saved for only a year. What did I know? And so I gladly followed the leading of these men who were my new spiritual guides. I held no bitterness in my heart; I had no animosity toward any. I just wanted to do what God wanted me to do. Over the next few years, I attended school and graduated in 2001. I had gotten married in 1999. My husband and I just wanted to do something for God. And we also wanted to be pleasing to the leaders of our organization. But beginning in January 2002, certain things became questionable to me within this church that I loved so dearly. 1. There was a lady (I’ll call her Sue) who we had been working with to get out to church. Sue finally came one Sunday night and heard Rev. Davis preach. And unfortunately she heard him relate a story about how a poor man had come to him asking for a “handout.” And she heard Davis boom over the pulpit, “I’m not going to give him any money! That’s God’s money!” Sue didn’t say anything that night. But the next time we visited her she asked us, “Just what does he do with God’s money?” And we honestly didn’t have an answer for her. You see, we had been taught not to bring homeless people to church. There was a minister we knew who was bringing a woman to church and she dared to ask if maybe the church would be able to help her out a little. Do you know what that minister did? He stopped the car and dropped her off in the parking lot of another church! The current NTCC members can deny this all they want, but we were specifically taught not to bring homeless or weird or crazy people to church. It could be that they might be a distraction to others there. And while we were taught not to bring “undesirable” people to sit down front, there were rows in the front that actually had “reserved” signs on them for the “chosen” few. Now correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be a direct contradiction to James 2. 2. During the years I was there, there seemed to be more and more rules applied (I won’t rehash it all again, but you know the deal). It had even gotten to the point where the “soul winning” effort was a large, mandated, spiritless type of effort. Up one street, down the next. Don’t talk to people too much. Don’t tell them too much. Over and over we were taught, “Just get them to church…” I won’t go into details but it soon sucked all the excitement and zeal I had ever had right out of me. And no I hadn’t stopped praying. In fact, I was praying more than ever. “God, what is wrong with me?” I would cry! I thought for sure something was wrong with me, spiritually that is. I knew it couldn’t be the church, it had to be me. We were the current move of God after all. We were the hope for the world. Then why did I feel so burdened down? And don’t tell me it was some secret sin! Don’t tell me it was a heart problem! I love God with all my heart and that has never changed. I will do WHATEVER God wants me to do and that is the truth! 3. There was a couple we met on a visit home one time and they were 100% Christians! They didn’t go to NTCC but there was no doubt in my mind that they loved God and the souls of men with all of their hearts. I felt like I had something to learn from them. But you know what? Because of what I had learned, I looked at the woman who had long hair (trimmed), a dress on, and EARRINGS, and said, “Almost…” They almost have the truth. And immediately I was convicted by the Holy Spirit. Who was I to judge a person because they had a pair of earrings in their ears? Who was I to judge a woman because she trimmed her hair? Did I know her heart? NO! God did… And he began to deal with mine… Some other things happened during this time. I eventually ventured to talk to my husband about what was going on in my head. I was scared to all that time because I just knew he would tell me I needed to pray and get right with God. I just knew he would go to Rev. Davis and tell all as we had been instructed. But he didn’t. In fact, we had one of the most heart-felt talks that we had had in a long time. We talked for hours and realized we both felt the same way. We knew we couldn’t go on for God any further within the confines of NTCC. And so he called Rev. Kekel and told him we were going to be moving on and why. We didn’t hide. We didn’t run off in the middle of the night. It was just time to move on. A few days later I got a visit from a couple that I respected greatly. It wasn’t easy to sit there and tell them I was going to follow my husband. But I did. Then I got a phone call from Rev. Kekel. I let him know I would stay with Ryan and follow his lead. Of course I was informed that this was my time to make a stand. If my husband had told me he was not going to church anymore at all and had decided to become a drunk, THEN I would have made a stand. But it just wasn’t conceivable to me. We weren’t leaving GOD! We were leaving NTCC, moving on because God was leading us on. It was then that I was told by Rev. Kekel and this is a direct quote because I never forgot it to this day, “If you think you can leave this organization and still serve God, you better think again!” And that was it for me! If there had been any doubt in my mind up until that point, there was no more! I have never forgotten those words. Leaving NTCC was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. In one fell swoop, I lost every friend that I had in that organization. They may claim they love me and care for me, but it’s hard to sense that from a distance. Contact was cut off. It was over. In their minds I have left God. We have since moved on. I haven’t stopped loving God. I haven’t stopped loving the people of God. It hasn’t been easy, sorting out what was NTCC’s stand on things, and what God actually said. And I am still learning. I am not trying to hurt anyone. I don’t think NTCC is all bad. There IS a good that comes from there. Many people come to know Jesus. But sometimes there are burdens placed on these people’s backs that God never intended them to carry. And it causes much stumbling. God’s code of ethics is one thing. Obeying God is wonderful. But following the mandates of ONE man without any question is an entirely different thing. And it’s not healthy. Please don’t say I am an ungodly sinner or a daughter of satan when you don’t know a thing about the life I live today. That just isn’t right. I have never once pointed the finger at any of you and said, “You are not right with God,” even after the most bitter and spiteful of comments. I genuinely hope NTCC reads these posts and sees what can happen in the lives of some sincere people when the man-made burdens become too heavy. Thank you to all… I am not bitter, just sad at what this has become. With a sincere heart, Sarah dejonghes@comcast.net | ||
| The_WHIRLWIND (69.29.215.21) |
Sarah....sarah. These events did not happen. May God have mercy on the Dejongues. | ||
| R (24.2.139.168) |
Whirlwind, I belive you and I spoke on the phone. Did we not? I know these events happened. Ryan | ||
| Sarah (24.2.139.168) |
Whirlwind, Which event in particular are you claiming did not happen? Sarah | ||
| Sarah (24.2.139.168) |
Whirlwind, Never mind... It's pointless. I've grown weary of this all. You can dispute the events if you want to, but I am done on here. I'm sorry I even wrote the last post a couple minutes ago. What I related is what happened to ME, not you. How can you say it never happened? Sarah P.S. I'm trying to bow out now... Are you going to let me leave or will I have to keep defending myself? | ||
| Rusty (66.79.47.54) |
Dear whirlwind, Why do you tell Sarah that those events never happened? Where you there? It is easy to call her a liar then not reply as to what events never happened. I have read your posts, whirlwind, and you have falsely accused people, been caught, then make a weak apology. Why do you equate "coming back to God" with coming back to NTCC? Why do they need to come back to Who they never left? So what If Ryan was seen at a video store? Your beloved sister Kekel was seen returning DVD's to the Library, but I am sure you will deny that up and down. Why do seminary students get blasted for getting disney movies for their kids, but it is common knowledge that Grant watches the same. My only apprehension of using my name on this post is you will start bashing me and calling me a liar also. I didn't leave NTCC for sin, I escaped bondage. | ||
| distant observer (64.122.168.62) |
The god of this earth is blinding the eyes of many. Filling their ears with what they will believe. Sowing discord among the brethren, the accuser of the brethren, father of lies...does this fall on empty heads? Does the Bible say this for no reason? Stand back and see what has become of the matter. What happened to your communion with the Holy Spirit? Give honour to those whom honour is due. Whereas knowledge puffs up, love edifies. A rosebush needs pruning to become more beautiful. An engine needs its oil changed to keep performing. A Christian needs the love of other Christians, fellowship, instruction from the Men of God, and from the Word of God, and a sincere prayer life. Without these needs being met, strange things can and do happen. Draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you. Who am I to judge another man's servant? But we have been given Pastors, Teachers, and Apostles for a Divine purpose. It has been said we are either a mission field or a missionary. Either a saint or a sinner. I would you were either hot or cold. Seek the Lord while He may be found. His Grace is sufficient. Those that love the Law of the Lord Nothing shall offend them. I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me. God knows our works. | ||
| rusty (66.79.47.54) |
Hey, distant observer, doesn't sound like you are too distant from your compilation of broken phrases and cliches. Typical of NTCC to throw pretty words to "prove their point." Your list of sayings doesn't make much sense though. | ||
| Anonymous (66.96.65.225) |
ha ha ha. distant o's verses make alot of sense. the word of God is spirtually discerned. | ||
| Lover_of_Souls (66.117.233.163) |
I found this on a larger part of this forum under this same title. I think it is something that needs to be shared on all sides. I do not think that I will be posting again, for this post has said it all. My email address is all over thing if you need to talk trash about me, please come to me, if you are someone who has a sincere desire to know I am, please by all means email me. Until we meet again.... Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 02:14 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your right Bro. Owens loving yourself does sum up the article. I guess I just wanted to use a medium other than the bible here at factnet so that I would not be accused of twisting scripture. The article and the scripture can be taken by both sides, there have been not so loving things written by our members and from those that have problems with us. I can understand sitting down with someone and discussing your issues, I can not understand why someone would begin to tear down a church and its leaders ONLINE, I don't think that even one of these people called any member of the board and said that they wanted to sit down and discuss the things that have been written here. Well, I guess I could understand if the people writing against us were sinners, but they all claim to be saved. That, I will never understand..Now things are being said here accusing NTCC of criminal activity..They have no proof to their claims. And proof is not he said/she said. This is very unfair in my view. Its all just accusitory words being thrown out there. Also I have never seen sisters that wear makeup, nor have I known sisters to intentionally burn their hair off to keep it short. Although with several thousand members I'm sure that some have, but that is between them and God..As a matter of fact all the accusations here are God's concern. ALL sin will be brought to light by our Lord. And he is perfectly capable of handling that himself. I'm POSITIVE that God did not come to these folks in a dream or any other way telling them to tear down NTCC...I have never read anywhere in the bible where Jesus instructed his disciples to go after people with accusations and inuendo. NEVER!!! Nor have I heard such things taught over the pulpits of NTCC. AGAIN, I have heard it taught to pray for others, don't argue with them, let them go if they don't want to be with us. How can christians write these things against one another?? Can anyone explain WHY??? You will never convince me that this is right.. | ||
| rusty (66.79.47.54) |
distant observer's "verses" do make sense, but a bunch of random verses thrown together? What is the point. Seems that distant one is just taking up space on this posting for no reason other than to be obnocious. So Ha Ha Ha to you too, anonymous one. | ||
| Anonymous (66.117.230.154) |
The Fence There was little boy with a bad temper, His father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, to hammer a nail in the back fence. The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence. Then it gradually dwindled down. He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence. Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all. He told his father about it and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper. The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone. The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, "You have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say I'm sorry, the wound is still there. A verbal wound is as bad a physical one." | ||
| Anonymous (66.117.231.191) |
From Nave's Topical Bible: 3381 MINISTER, Christian -(a sacred teacher) -Called .AMBASSADORS FOR CHRIST 2CO 5:20 .ANGELS OF THE CHURCH RE 1:20; 2:1 .APOSTLES LU 6:13; RE 18:20 .APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST TIT 1:1 .DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH PHP 1:7 .ELDERS 1TI 5:17; 1PE 5:1 .EVANGELISTS EPH 4:11; 2TI 4:5 .FISHERS OF MEN MT 4:19; MR 1:17 .LABORERS MT 9:38; with PHM 1 1:1 .LABORERS IN THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST 1TH 3:2 .LIGHTS JOH 5:35 .MEN OF GOD DE 33:1; 1TI 6:11 .MESSENGERS OF THE CHURCH 2CO 8:23 All these things, I have seen at NTCC in the examples of Pastor Davis, all the board members and even Rev Kekel, who you all love SO MUCH! | ||
| Anonymous (63.93.99.143) |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings To All In The Name of Jesus! First of all, let me start out by saying where I am NOW. For the last 2-3 months, I have just RETURNED to NTCC, after an approximately 3-year long absence. All I can say, it is GOOD to be HOME again. My first time back in the church (in Augusta, Ga.), Rev. & Sis. Olson just happened to be there on a visit to the Pastor, Rev. King. Rev. Olson warmly embraced me, said it was good to see me again, and told me the church had been praying for me. Now, let me backtrack a few months. On Jan. 17 of this year, I was in an auto accident. I was thrown into the back seat, had 4 ribs broken, a broken left scapula (shoulder bone), a broken pelvic bone, & a ruptured aorta. During the operation on me, a coma was induced to speed my healing. A week or so after that, my gall bladder got infected & had to be removed. I still have a loooooong scar running from below my navel to my chest from that. When I woke up from the induced coma, I had no memory of the accident. I had to be told the detals of the accident from my Mom. I learned that HUNDREDS of people from a Yahoo chat room I had started, "Born Again Christian," had been praing for me. I ALSO learned that Bro. Watson had been notified of my accident, & he in turn told Pastor Davis. Pastor Davis announced it in the church in Graham, or a conference on Phoenix, or both, and asked prayer for me. Let me say ALSO, that during the 3 years I was away from NTCC, I saw nothing but a MESS! I saw Charismatic churches that only sang Praise & Worship choruses. I saw MANY people with only a shallow-appearing love for God & the brethren. Yes, I saw a FEW that appeared to have the GENUINE love of God, but not very many. When I heard about Rev. Davis asking the church to pray for me, I realized I needed to go back HOME. Just like the Prodigal Son! Am I ever glad that I did. When I was out there in the church "world," I was STARVING spiritualy! Now it is lke I have a FEAST for my soul. I fellowship with Bro. & Sis. Cantrell & their son Neil, with Bro. Bentley & Pastor Mayers, in the NTCC church in Tucker, Ga., near Atlanta. In August, I will be going to my FIRST conference since Fall, 2000. I have NOTHING but LOVE & RESPECT for Rev. Olson, Rev. Davis, Rev. Kekel, Rev. Johnson & all the OTHER leaders & their wives. I have been saved for 21 years now, and known them for almost as long. NEVER have I EVER seen ANYTHING but the love, compassion & mercy of God shown by these men. Are there rules? Yes, there are, but they are PRIMARILY for the Bible School students, staff & ministers in the church. Any denomination that does not have RULES, is, by definition, CHAOTIC! That is not God's will. Yes, we have an Executive Board that meets to consider sending out or recallling ministers, new by-laws, etc. But they are a Board that is led by the HOLY SPIRIT. Well, what about the members who do not wish to conform to Holiness standards? That is, ultimately, between them & God, if they are not atending Bible College, or at the Conference & Campground in Central Missouri. NO ONE has EVER. to my knowledge, been kicked out of the church for failing to live by Holiness standards. Yes, Ministers & their wives have been disfellowshipped for such, but that is because they are bringing reproach to the ministry, IF they live in open rebellion against rules. Ultimately, if a church member wishes to rebel against our standards,, and they believe the Holy Spirit is leading them to do so, they are welcome to try. The Judgmennt Seat of Christ will ultimately tell who is right & who is wrong. But I would not want to bet my SOUL, that rebellion is all right. In His Service, Steve | ||
| Concise Theology (216.229.223.247) |
GOD WILL JUDGE ALL MANKIND Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” MATTHEW 25:41 The certainty of final judgment forms the frame within which the New Testament message of saving grace is set. Paul in particular stresses this certainty, highlighting it to the sophisticated Athenians (Acts 17:30-31) and spelling it out in detail in the first section of Romans, the New Testament book that contains his fullest exposition of the gospel (Rom. 2:5-16). It is from “the coming wrath” on “the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed,” says Paul, that Jesus Christ saves us (1 Thess. 1:10; Rom. 2:5; cf. Rom. 5:9; Eph. 5:6; Col. 3:6; John 3:36; Rev. 6:17; 19:15). Throughout Scripture, God’s indignation, anger, and fury, which are often spoken of, are judicial; these words always point to the holy Creator actively judging sin, just as wrath does here. The message of coming judgment for all mankind, with Jesus Christ completing the work of his mediatorial kingdom by acting as judge on his Father’s behalf, runs throughout the New Testament (Matt. 13:40-43; 25:41-46; John 5:22-30; Acts 10:42; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 9:27; 10:25-31; 12:23; 2 Pet. 3:7; Jude 6-7; Rev. 20:11-15). When Christ comes again and history is completed, all humans of all ages will be raised for judgment and will take their place before Christ’s judgment seat. The event is unimaginable, no doubt, but human imagination is no measure of what a sovereign God can and will do. At the judgment all will give account of themselves to God, and God through Christ “will give to each person according to what he has done” (Rom. 2:6; cf. Ps. 62:12; Matt. 16:27; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12). The regenerate, who as servants of Christ have learned to love righteousness and desire the glory of a holy heaven, will be acknowledged, and on the basis of Christ’s atonement and merit on their behalf they will be awarded that which they seek. The rest will receive a destiny commensurate with the godless way of life they have chosen, and that destiny will come to them on the basis of their own demerit (Rom. 2:6-11). How much they knew of the will of God will be the standard by which their demerit is assessed (Matt. 11:20-24; Luke 11:42-48; Rom. 2:12). The judgment will demonstrate, and so finally vindicate, the perfect justice of God. In a world of sinners, in which God has “let all nations go their own way” (Acts 14:16), it is no wonder that evil is rampant and that doubts arise as to whether God, if sovereign, can be just, or, if just, can be sovereign. But for God to judge justly is his glory, and the Last Judgment will be his final self-vindication against the suspicion that he has ceased to care about righteousness (Ps. 50:16-21; Rev. 6:10; 16:5-7; 19:1-5). In the case of those who profess to be Christ’s, review of their actual words and works (Matt. 12:36-37) will have the special point of uncovering the evidence that shows whether their profession is the fruit of an honest regenerate heart (Matt. 12:33-35) or merely the parrot-cry of a hypocritical religiosity (Matt. 7:21-23). Everything about everybody will be exposed on Judgment Day (1 Cor. 4:5), and each will receive from God according to what he or she really is. Those whose professed faith did not express itself in a new life-style, marked by hatred of sin and works of loving service to God and others, will be lost (Matt. 18:23-35; 25:34-46; James 2:14-26). Fallen angels (demons) will be judged on the last day (Matt. 8:29; Jude 6), and the saints will be involved in the process (1 Cor. 6:3), though Scripture does not reveal their precise role. Knowledge of future judgment is always a summons to present repentance. Only the penitent will be prepared for judgment when it comes. | ||
| Anonymous (61.11.26.142) |
Words to live by Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. | ||
| Paul (218.2.104.242) |
Words to die by For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. | ||
| Matt Mercer (207.14.59.254) |
The Whirlwind has ceased speaking? Perhaps, the truth got to him, and hit him between the eyes and he is on the floor, crying out for repentance? Or, Michael, as he is better known, is not anointed by "God" [at this time] to speak out further? | ||
| Anonymous (67.118.120.134) |
It seems like most of the people on this board know each other, and it seems I don’t know any of them =). Greetings, and I wish all of you God’s blessings, since He is the only source and sustainer of good in or around us. May He personally receive every bit of glory, love and honor in His universe, not any fallen man or earthly organization. I attended NTCC for a number of years and God blessed me there. Yet, I gradually came to see NTCC’s unmistakable cult like aspects, many of which are listed in previous postings. No doubt I will be vilified and told I am proud, self-righteous and Satanic for saying the following even though I am presumably unknown to this group, but over time I came to perceive substantial pride and self-righteousness within the organization and its ‘clergy’. At the soul of NTCC, this is a much bigger problem than its doctrine and strictness/holiness per se, not to minimize these issues. It is a strictly hierarchical organization, with God’s word and Spirit supposedly coming down from the top through the ‘reverends’ (actually only God should be the object of reverence, not any man), and finally arriving at the common sheep who are expected to blindly obey. Baaaaaa. In this aspect NTCC is very similar to the Roman Catholic system, where in a practical sense the people report more directly under the authority of a ‘special’ person than to God Himself. It is a one-way street, and the organization aggressively promotes an environment that is not open to considering any information that differs from NTCC’s position. Although it is not said in so many words (well, very close), it is as if God only works through NTCC and its reverends who specially refer to themselves as ‘men of God’ in the ‘house of God’, and anyone who disagrees with them could not possibly be of God or led by the Holy Spirit. However, according to the Bible believers are to first follow God directly in good conscience according to His Word and Spirit, and men and/or their organizations afterwards. There is an immeasurably vast difference between God and men, even the best of us or those in seemingly exalted church positions. God is the only head, and we are His one body – He is the only Father, and we are His children, and that only because we were miraculously adopted via the unimaginable suffering and death of our Creator and Savior. In the past, God manifested his visible presence in temples of stone made with men’s hands, but today the house of God is people themselves. Despite the ritualism of most ‘religious’ leaders, today’s focus should not primarily be on church buildings or temples of man’s workmanship, but on encouraging and edifying other people in the faith. God indeed gifts some of us in different ways than others, but even those he sets as ‘under-shepherds’ are to love and care for his flock, and never consider themselves any better or more spiritual than their brethren. We are to speak the truth in love to edify each other in His one church, not just in a given earthly organization. I heard so many times at NTCC how all other churches are backslidden, instruments of Satan etc. and well this is certainly true for the vast majority today. But it is definitely not true for all, and when one exalts themselves as the only true light on earth organizationally they are not only mistaken but setting themselves up to be humbled. I am now attending a strong Bible-believing church where God’s word/truth and love are emphasized, but unfortunately I could not make such a comment looking back on NTCC. It is not a healthy environment, and those who staunchly defend it against all comers would do well to take a step back, pray and really think through what is said above about cults. I know NTCC’ers believe you are standing for God by vigorously defending NTCC, but one must realize that God does not equal NTCC or its clergy (or any other earthly organization for that matter), not even remotely close. It is well to consider that we are all fallible, and to be willing to examine ourselves to see whether we be in the truth. I hope this is helpful, but in any case it is intended to be so. Shalom. | ||
| Matthew W (137.229.58.17) |
In regards to the previous message, all I have to say is "well said". If everyone in NTCC only had such discernment, how different things there would be. | ||
| rebelrenegade (rebelrenegade) New member Username: rebelrenegade Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.214.86.140 |
In a Post that Whirlwind posted : You agreed to the rules of the seminary, yet have knowingly implied that they are forced on others, when they are not. Ok If they were not forced on us. Then why did we get blasted by the Revs up there if we disobeyed the rules, huh? They were not suggestions by Ya'll. They were flat out Rules. And I know your gonna say something about Free will, blah blah blah. It didn't seem like we had much of a free will when we were all there. If the rules were for the seminary school students, Then why were the revs of NTCC teaching the same rules to the Churchs. All I see there is Total Bondage. God Bless | ||
| matthew_wadsworth (matthew_wadsworth) New member Username: matthew_wadsworth Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 137.229.58.17 |
I know that the rulse I agreed to when I first arrived in 1997 were not the same rules that existed when I left in 2000, or the same rules at the end of the next semester. They constantly changed. Why did they not just give you a list of rules on paper like any other normal school does? Why were they only verbally repeated and changed at the beginning of each semester? | ||
| doug_allen (doug_allen) New member Username: doug_allen Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
Whoever did the initial research on this thread let me say, "thank you for your research." When Janet and I first began to read FACTNet the research done here was undeniable. It was another testimony, and combined with years of stuggle with the tatics used by the NTCC organization helped us to make the decison that we have not regretted. allengatorz@juno.com Doug Allen | ||
| imaskingwhy (imaskingwhy) Junior Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.58.96.114 |
I would like to respond to portions of some posts. First, Steve I am glad to hear you are healthy and happy. In reference to returning to ntcc, I believe that the challenge of serving God without the psychological support of the org. is one reason why some return. When I left I made up my mind that my walk with God would never again be part of the little birdie in the nest syndrome ever again. I can preach, pray and serve God without a org. or a man or board lording over my every move. Alot of people do not return cuz they know that the org. most of the time slanders them to some degree or another. I remember when a brother returned to St. Louis, RW said "he left once he'll leave again". I thought that was rude to make that brother bear that burden. Some like the convenince of belonging to something bigger than them, but sacrifice thier own individuality in the process. Am I to understand that "whirlwind" was believed to be Micheal Kekel???? Anyone can email me at zappertoy@yahoo.com Bryan David Hill | ||
| atpeace (atpeace) New member Username: atpeace Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 4.90.11.213 |
Rev. Kekel is not whirlwind... | ||
| doug_allen (doug_allen) Junior Member Username: doug_allen Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
posted by bethanne "Still not convinced of the futility of trying to convert a happy NTCC’r? Then just try to remember how we thought when we were a part of this church. We faced opposition from all sides; friends, family, colleagues, and etc. Could they ever convince us that we were wrong? No way!" I disagree with this statement. If anyone who has been a part of NTCC for a while will read the research done on this thread and will be honest with themselves they must realize some major abuse that goes on within the NTCC Organization(and many religious/church groups). When Janet and I read this thread (and I was a Pastor with the org at the time) we could not deny the facts. Doug Allen | ||
| searchlight86 (searchlight86) New member Username: searchlight86 Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.161.212.105 |
Hi, I'm the October 30, '04 post guy. fyi, I just had a book published called "Miracles or Magic?" that might be helpful, and I worked on for ~3 years. It's not about NTCC, but I certainly kept NTCC in mind when writing it. Since I am not known here, and some will think it, I didn't write this for money, in fact I expect to lose money on the deal. If anyone is interested the best writeup is at the publisher's site: http://www.xulonpress.com/bookstore/titles/1597812501.htm It is also on amazon, barnesandnoble, borders and target websites, cheaper. The easiest way to find it on these sites is to search for my name "Rory Roybal" since my name it is more unique than the title. If anyone reads it and thinks it useful (or not  ), please post here and pass it on. Blessings to you in any case, Rory. | ||
| imaskingwhy (imaskingwhy) Junior Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.58.96.114 |
Rory Roybal? Who? Is this Roxroy Ried? | ||
| searchlight86 (searchlight86) New member Username: searchlight86 Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 63.121.66.97 |
No, Rory Roybal is my real name, believe it or not. I guess my parents had a sense of humor $) | ||
| newsonger (newsonger) New member Username: newsonger Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 71.32.93.161 |
I don't know if Whirlwind, Lover of Souls, and others associated with NTCC-particularly those in Graham, still monitor Factnet, and respond to posts by former NTCCer's. I do know that a previous post from Fall 2004, was read by the Pastor of the Graham church. I only know that because I was told by someone attending the church, that my name came up in a conversation, and the Pastor told this individual that I should not be considered a friend, after what I posted on factnet. How does M.C. know what I posted, and what I said? Does he still go online and read the posts, while his wife, daughter of the founder, reads over his shoulder? While it is true that Roger, his Father-in-law, never strictly banned Ministers and Bible college students, from using the internet-he strongly discouraged it. How many Ministers, and former Bible college students, Roger, did you have to remove, because they sinned with porn on the internet? Since fact net is not porn, I guess it is okay for the faithful to monitor all posts regarding NTCC/HOP? M.C., I have nothing pesonal against you. I disagree with some of Roger's comments from the pulpit. You and I talked about it. My comments and questions, made you angry at me over the phone. How dare I question, Roger, a man of God, for what he said, and how he acted? Isn't that right? I was the one who had the sin problem, right? You said, Roger loved me. Really? Roger has a strange way of showing he loves people? Is glaring at people, love, M.C.? Is prancing across the stage, with a limp wrist, love-while talking abut those who are homosexual? Did Roger ever offer any homosexual hope? Did you, M.C.? I never heard you or Roger, ever offer anything but condemnation and shame. Biblical? Apparently you don't believe in ex-gay ministry, or any ministry that tries to help people walk free of that sin. You claimed to me that Roger has helped more people become free of homosexuality, than anyone else ever has. Really? M.C., I'm saying hello to you back. I do not hate you or Roger. I just do not agree with certain NTCC statements or practice. I choose not to attend NTCC ever again. M.C., it works both ways. Be careful what you say to others, about others. Walls have ears........ | ||
| justin_other (justin_other) New member Username: justin_other Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 80.58.4.42 |
I'll have my local library buy it, Rory. Then I'll borrow it, and read it. Isn't that win/win situation? You still get the sale, and I get to read the book for free. And others will, too, since it will be at the library. BTW, I couldn't agree more with your 10/30/04 post. Very well stated. | ||
| havfaith_01 (havfaith_01) New member Username: havfaith_01 Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 80.148.16.97 |
Cult this Cult that, do any of you really know what "Cult" means? I mean if we go by the dictionary version, then that means any organization or group with standards could be a cult. Girl Scouts..Any church really, they all have standards of their own...hey even the military could be called a cult.. AND..if thats the case..then are you calling Jesus and his disciples a cult?I mean Jesus held his disciples to a standard...BY THE BIBLE!! Just curious!  | ||
| polaris (polaris) New member Username: polaris Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.153.3.204 |
To havefaith_01: cult 1. a system of religious worship. 2. obbsessive and fadish devotion to a principle or person. 3. a group of persons sharing such devotion: sect. from Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary Copywrite 1984. Factnet also has a section of political, military, MLM and such that are considered cults. There are particular reasons that make them so. Maybe you should read up on them. They are listed on the homepage. That way you won't seem uninformed. | ||
| havfaith_01 (havfaith_01) New member Username: havfaith_01 Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 80.148.16.97 |
Yep just what I said..Thank you for trying to make me seem uninformed. | ||
| polaris (polaris) New member Username: polaris Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.153.3.204 |
You are welcome. But you didn't need help from me. | ||
| havfaith_01 (havfaith_01) New member Username: havfaith_01 Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 80.148.16.97 |
wow, does everyone alway have to come of mean?My goodness...why are you so angry polaris? No need to be bitter towards everyone at NTCC, I did nothing to you. Blessings! | ||
| blackcat (blackcat) Junior Member Username: blackcat Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.227.112.18 |
havfaith You are the one sounding bitter and angry. There are many people that have left NTCC for one reason or another. All the stories are different and just because you don't believe them does not make them lair's. You are the one going around calling people names. I was with NTCC for a VERY long time and out in the different works for many years. Blessing to you and yours Meow  | ||
| polaris (polaris) New member Username: polaris Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.153.3.204 |
To havfaith_01: You are one to talk. Your posts come across as mean too. You call others liars, and if anyone disagrees with you, well, your last post makes my point. It is not so much that you post your observations and experiences, but it is the attitude your posts portray. You may not mean to sound arrogant, but to those reading it, it does. If someone rubs you the wrong way your posts make you appear upset. Notice how I didn't say YOU were mean or that YOU were arrogant. All I said was that your posts come across that way. But it is easy for you to say that I am "so angry". Since you don't know me how can you say that? You don't have to respond, but at least think about it. | ||
| ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.35.166.42 |
Is NTCC and HOP a cult? Get a load of this post from the Jehovah's Witnesses thread and see if you can pick out any similarities: Posted on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 6:16 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ex-Jehovah's Witness tells of her `escape' By Richard Scheinin Mercury News Posted on Sat, May. 18, 2002 Diane Wilson of Morgan Hill spent nearly half her life as a Jehovah's Witness, and her memories are bitter ones. For 25 years, she says, she was taught to not ask questions and eventually to shun her own daughter, who had left the Watchtower Society. Wilson became involved with the Watchtower, which has about a million members in the United States, in 1968 and was baptized a Witness in 1970. She was 21 and recently divorced, living on the edge in Santa Clara County with a young child. As she tells it, she was emotionally ``vulnerable'' and soon found herself in a rigid religious organization that expected -- and got -- complete obedience from its members. ++They sent someone over to teach me the Bible, which turned out to be their version. They said they were there to teach me the ``truth'' -- because it's either them or it's false Christianity. Not much room for interpretation? When a religion is legalistic and controlling and saying, ``It's either our way or the highway,'' that's when it's a problem. I think the Scriptures have many gray areas, and people should be free to think about and interpret them. But the Jehovah's Witnesses take those gray areas and make them black and white. And this is when they get into their doctrinal zigzags: First, you're told this is the way. But then something changes and they announce, ``We have new light. Jehovah has shown us that this is the way.'' It can go from Point A to Point B to Point C and back to Point A, and there's always a Scriptural justification. Their doctrine on rape has changed 12 times over 30 years, and it has wreaked emotional havoc over women. If a woman is raped at knifepoint or gunpoint and she doesn't scream, it's fornication. It's not rape. So if a guy tells you, ``I'll kill you if you scream,'' and you believe him, you haven't been raped. That was the doctrine for a long time. They zigzagged for years. In 1993, they finally said, ``No, rape is an act of violence. It's not sex at all.'' So with the doctrine on rape, you had a 180-degree turn. I was raped when I was 33, and I know the havoc this creates. I went to see the elders' judicial committee and was told this was an infraction of the rules because I didn't scream. They had no compassion for me at all. I don't understand why you stayed after that. You get hooked, because there's always the fear that Jehovah's going to kill you at Armageddon if you leave. I also found out later, they have methods of mind control. They get you to believe that they are the supreme authority, the channel between God and mankind. They literally say they're God's mouthpiece. ++ In my experience, affluent neighborhoods aren't so receptive to the Witnesses. But you go to some of these poorer areas -- people want those nice houses in the picture book. ++You're not allowed to date anyone who's not a Witness. You're not even allowed to have a friend who's not a Witness. ++A t age 14 with her confession to me that ``this religion is weird and when I'm 18, I'm leaving. Until then, I'll be obedient.'' She left home, she left the Witnesses, all in one day, on her 18th birthday. What was your relationship with her after that? I was not allowed to talk to her. She was ``disfellowshipped.'' What does it mean to be disfellowshipped? You're thrown out. The elders throw you out. See, that's why the elders are so feared. They hold your life in their hands. They stand up in front of the congregation and say your name and announce that you have been disfellowshipped because of conduct unbecoming a Christian. And then everyone in the congregation has to act like you're dead. If they pass you on the street, they look the other way. I go shopping in the store sometimes, and if a Witness sees me, they leave their cart and go running. How did you leave the Watchtower? Were you disfellowshipped? No. I made a public announcement that I was leaving. That's called ``disassociating.'' I wrote a letter: ``This letter is to notify you that I am leaving the Watchtower organization.'' Disassociating is considered the worst thing you can do, to leave the organization, because you're turning your back on God. I've not turned my back on God. ++How did you treat your daughter between the time she left and the time you left, three years later? I shunned her for three months. My husband shunned her for three years. ++People are hurting, and I just feel it's time for the veil of secrecy to be lifted. Maybe it'll save someone from wasting half their life, the way I did. Only a part of http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/3289656.htm | ||
| justin_other (justin_other) Junior Member Username: justin_other Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 4.78.2.170 |
 The similarities are striking, are they not? | ||
| ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.42.105.99 |
Read this text from a posting off of another cult in FACTNET and then read the comment at the bottom: Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 12:36 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I attended Camp Life one year and only once. Though financially needy, my family did not receive the freebies and discounts so liberally given to others. My family scraped to provide a way for me to go. I urge you to be aware that if your child is already shunned on any level, once they are at Camp Life there will be NO BARRIER BETWEEN YOUR CHILD AND THE INTIMIDATION OF CERTAIN YOUTH LEADERS IN AUTHORITY THERE. I was openly ridiculed during my time at Camp Life. If I need to describe it more particularly John Love would make intimidating and minimizing comments to me publicly with small groups of teens surrounding and looking on. Though teens in good graces were allowed to bunk together, teens that are shunned will be placed in seperate cabins from their friends. I was followed by "poster teens" constantly. I'm telling you, if I left my cabin on my own I was FOLLOWED AT A DISTANCE BY APPOINTED TEENS OR COLLEGE STUDENTS. I was cut off on the paths in wooded areas many times by male youth leaders who would ask my where I thought I was "sneaking off to" and accuse me of underhanded motives, even if I was simply heading to the restroom. Twice when I attempted to join group activities I was told by John Love that I was in the wrong place... that this group was reserved for those "on fire for God." There were certain peers I avoided being caught standing near at all costs because wickedness was assumed if we were seen in proximity of one another. I didn't even know some of these other "wicked" peers except by name. Regardless, the lies were propogated and I came to realize these other teen strangers were shunned just as I was. In particular, youth leaders matched me up with having a "relationship" with a boy from a New England branch church that I had never met before. It was assumed we were perpetrating wickedness because we happened to walk by eachother on a path one day, from opposite directions and it was overseen by a teen sent to report on my actions. As a penalty I was to be mirrored from then on by a teen girl, older than me by a bit, who flanked me to keep me in check. The older teen was close to Love, and was an intimidating extroverted personality. I made many attempts to ditch her that week. She didn't hide what she was doing. She made it very clear to me that she was supervising me. Don't send your kids here! The pressure to conform in order to avoid this type of intimidation is intense. Many teens simply pretend to be spiritual to avoid the abrasion.----------------------------------------------------Now, have any of us ex-NTCCers or HOPers ever been marked, watched, and followed by senior ministers in Graham or Hinesville before? Hmmmm? | ||
| rev_g_r_jordan (rev_g_r_jordan) New member Username: rev_g_r_jordan Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 4.246.6.237 |
Marc Perez When you were discovered to be the one who had been posting all those lies and filth on factnet one, of the first things you said was now that I am known "They" will try to discredit me (trashed and misrepresented is what you actually said) and you have made similar statements several times since. YOU SAY that calling your character in question (in order to discredit you and shut you up) is right out of the liberal play book. But what do you call what you have been doing? You have spouted filth, you have thrown mud in every direction with the hopes that some of it will stick, you have told lie after lie after lie with just enough fact added to give it the appearance of truth. And you top it all off by quoting scripture and you dare say that before God it is the whole truth. (God has got to have a spot beside his throne where He pukes when He hears such things) And yet you do not want the truth to come out about you. You want to keep up the charade. You want people to think you are the intellectual icon of purity and truth, the Man of God that saw the light and is now helping bring Gods people the truth. When really you are a disgruntled “has been”, full of pride that has set out to destroy babes in Christ. You are well aware that all the preachers know you are lying, and you will not fool any of the older people either. It is just the babes in Christ you will destroy and that is one of the most Godless things anyone could ever do. How does it feel to be used by the devil. Because of this people need to know the truth. Vdubbug who ever that is asked you about YOUR money problem. (and oh yes you have a money problem) and you got mad and jumped all over them because it hit home. While you were evangelizing you were telling people how to invest. Rev. Briggs got tired of it and asked you how much money you had in the bank and you told him $50.00, so he told you to stick to preaching. After you got married and was attending the San Jose Church you were still telling people how to invest. The very night I was sent to take your ministers license (because you were beating on your wife) ALL you talked about was a new way of making money. And when the time came for your wife to get out of the Army you made her re-enlist because of the money (I know that she didn’t want to re-enlist because I was her pastor and she told me you were making her re-enlist.) Sounds like a money problem to me. And when she was transferred to Washington you lived off of her income while you built up your insurance business. And now you make a lot of money and it has made you arrogant. Your PRIDE has destroyed you. Someone whoever it was also brought up your “physical incident with your wife” and I am glad they did because you finally admitted you hit your wife. You may not remember because a liar lies so much that they forget who they lied to. But you played it off and told me that you shoved her and that was all you ever admitted to. But according to your wife this was not the first time you did it. Not counting all the mental abuse she suffered at your hands. And according to your wife you beat her boys also (and she did say beat) but I expect no less from a wife beater. When confronted about it you showed no remorse at all in fact as I said before when I was sent to take your license all you talked about was a get rich quick scheme. While we’re here talking about your wife’s boys I noticed you said some people in NTCC were committing adultery because they were divorced and remarried. You got that doctrine right out of the Assembly of God doctrine book, and according to their doctrine you are living in adultery yourself because your wife was married before and divorced. I believe your wife had bible grounds for a divorce and remarriage so I’m not finding fault with her. In fact tell her I said hi. And you should find out if people have bible grounds for divorce and remarriage before you run your mouth! You posted on Tuesday Aug. 16 right out of the liberal play book blaming your sin on NTCC again… you are such a liar. We do not abuse our wives and children nor do we permit it by our members and you know that so take that lie back to your buddies at HOP. And what is this garbage ask Rev. Kekel and Rev. Davis if they ever committed adultery is this another liberal diversionary tactic to pull the heat off you. Why don’t you ask them if they ran their car through an old folks home or poisoned a school full of children. It would make about as much sense. You must be judging them out of your own heart. This is to let you all know what type of people are posting this filth and lies about NTCC. One of the posts that called Pastor Davis a liar left because they were practicing homosexuality and their sin was found out. Another poster admitted that one of his new found freedoms in Christ is smoking marijuana. I plan to post again later on. Rev. G. R. Jordan | ||
| ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Intermediate Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.35.163.206 |
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 12:49 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here comes GR Jordan, on his crusade of NTCC apologetics and slander of dissenting/ex-members of the same. I love it when a challenge is presented to me - especially in such a predictable way as this. You posted the following: You want people to think you are the intellectual icon of purity and truth, the Man of God that saw the light and is now helping bring Gods people the truth. When really you are a disgruntled “has been”, full of pride that has set out to destroy babes in Christ. Oh really? Full of pride? How do you know, sir? You're basing this on what happened over 6 years ago when I had my problems in California? There you go - doing exactly what I and most everyone in this forum knew people like you would do. God forgave me of that and I have not done so since. He won't bring up my forgiven past, but the devil will (think about it...George...it wasn't the Holy Ghost that told you to post that trash about me, huh?) Yet I'm talking about the present! About Briggs. I didn't tell him I had $50. I didn't have alot of money, but I had alot more than that...or else how could I have made it while preaching to mostly very small churches? Hmm? Do the math, good ole boy, you travelled once before...you know how far $50 will take you. Yet Briggs, as much as I treated him as a friend both BEFORE and AFTER that time, talked trash about how unappreciative Bro Salaun was in a previous revival he had there.....and I couldn't help but think what they would say about me after I had left. Again, I only spoke of paying tithe, giving yourself 10%, and putting it somewhere where it will go (no specifics) so that the devil wouldn't beat you over the head years later with the thought that serving God brings poverty. There's nothing wrong with that, unless the problem is in yourself. As far as you coming to take my license in 8/99, I was caught up in money then because I was desperate and my wife had just ETS'd from the service. I was under alot of pressure at the time, living on 3 hours of sleep per night for almost 3 years, sir. I don't do those things anymore, and I am not into any schemes at all, nor haven't been since then. Yet you are trying to discredit the truth that I'm telling of THE PRESENT by slandering me with my past....exactly how Lucifer does to us.....Lucifer is using you and not even thanking you for your services here. As far as the statement I made to vdubbug about asking Davis and Kekel if they had ever committed adultery is concerned, I was making a point that whatever they had done in their past is not relevant to what they are doing today....which is why I made that statement...because you and I both know that we would never ask that question, would we? Why? Because we'd be too afraid and we know that it's not relevant....so isn't it inconsistent of you to do the same to me? Hmmmmm??? What I'm saying here is that you gotta be consistent...if you're going to make my past relevant, then make theirs relevant too. Finally, I praised you on this FACTNET, George, for the honesty that you had displayed in the Philippines in regards to the adoption thing. I also said on here that Davis slammed you in front of us in Calif. (at a Denny's) while you was on the Gen. board for telling others "how to do it" when you weren't doing it yourself. Soon after that, the Gen. board was dissolved and you were out. That very thing is one of the things that "made me see the light." This perfectly illustrates what I've been talking about - the businessman mentality of the NTCC cult. You're judged by your numbers. You're not a numbers man, you're just trying to love souls while you were struggling to survive there in San Jose. I saw the abuse, and you were being abused. I saw you put your head down. You had sacrificed and did what you could there in San Jose...trying to be an honest minister there...and you even had interest in money making things too when I presented them to you....about marketing phone cards....because we talked many times about it and you were very interested. I'm not that way, nor have I been that way, since then. We were in a crunch at that time and I was dying spiritually. God has forgiven me of that and I've moved on...serving God in whatever way I can....and I definitely DO NOT have a money problem. I give almost as much as some people make, my buddy ole pal. That's ok, you'll see one day. The sad thing is that all the sacrifice you and others are making now to help promote a holiness movement will come to naught because it's slowly but surely heading towards "compromise." I have some predictions that I've shared privately with a few people...and I will return in about 30 years to visit in Graham to see the results myself...and how my predictions will come true. It's a shame that they are building their wealth on the backs of good men like you. Back in a moment... ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 96 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.42.97.197 Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:18 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- George, I almost forgot. One of the other things that made us see the light was the inconsistency of applying the rules of marriage and remarriage here at NTCC. Again, your personal attack on me is irrelevant because your comparing my situation with the ones that I wrote about on FACTNET. My wife was previously married and her ex-husband cheated on her and ran off. He had remarried since. That makes my wife FREE. Don't you know that, Rev. G.R. Jordan? Or is your fervant loyalty to a man and organization making you blind to the truth? That's what I'm talking about...I've seen how that this loyalty garbage has made you people blind and abusive to others...yet you don't even see it! I've been talking about how that 2 couples (in the ministry at NTCC...and there are more than 2 examples) would divorce, and all 4 people would remarry others in the org and STAY IN THE MINISTRY. Now here's a Bible quiz for you: Can all 4 people remarry? Hmmmm? Answer me, George? Well, NTCC's leaders failed that test because they have allowed and sanctioned that very thing. This is the beginning of compromise. You can't deny it! Sin is ok on SOME occasions, as long as your useful in the org. That's why I'm out! I can't stand to watch it anymore. Yes, Davis treated me nicely for the past year (but like a dog for the first 2 1/2 years that we returned to Wash.). We're still in Christ, but out of that cult. ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 97 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.42.97.197 Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:46 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, and about making my wife re-enlist. Let me refresh you memory, George, because you omitted most of the facts. First of all, the idea of her going back in to the service (not re-enlisting, but going back, because she did get out) was based on the idea of us being moved to Washington by the military and for us to get out of the situation in California that were in...we needed help. You talked to Rev. Olson about it and you told me that he said "it's not the ideal situation....but under the circumstances...." You told me that under the circumstances, it wasn't a bad idea. You had also mentioned that your wife objected to it and that I wouldn't get reinstated if we did that. You said that you told her that it was not up to her to judge, but for the men of God at Graham. Right? Right? I can see you putting your head down a bit, George. You were for it. I didn't make my wife do anything...you took what she said out of context. She wanted to be a full time mom and minister's wife, but she also recognized the need and we couldn't afford to move ourselves, etc....we needed the help from the military. Thanks for your abusive tirade, George, but I take no offense. Your furry lovable fuzzball still loves you and you have just illustrated to us all why we left. We have heard the trash talk about others who had left while we were in...and yet out of the other side of the mouth we hear of how they would trash talk about NTCC and how it was wrong. Funny how it's wrong/trash/gossip when they talk about us...but not the other way around. Your reference to the Assby. of God is just a tiny tidbit of evidence that the root of this problem is even in your life...because I didn't even bring them up but you did! So, it's an Assembly of God conspiracy, hmmm? Maybe you're right. Maybe they have telepathically suggested these things about the adulterous marriages in NTCC so as to tear it apart....it's a CONSPIRACY! I'm laughing out loud....but sad for you. ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 98 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.42.97.197 Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:51 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and if you want to try to rebut what I just said about my wife, then get this: Last Friday, she called me up from her job and said that she wanted to lift her declarations statement (to not re-enlist, that she had made by my wishes 2 1/2 years ago - yes, by my wishes, you read it right) and that she wanted to reenlist so that she could retire...since she has over 15 years of combined service. So that further disproves what you said about me making her "re-enlist." Your loyalty to an abusive org., that has its ministers cutoff their own offspring that aren't in the cult themselves, has made you blind. Let me ask you, sir, if Buki decides to go to the Assemblies instead of NTCC, will you cutoff most contact with her? Will you distance yourself, as the Wrights did their daughters and grandkids? G. Wright just recently called them the other day for the first time in ages...probably because he read their posts here and found how he was guilty of cutting them off/alienating his own offspring because they're not in NTCC....so he made a call to cover his butt. What a pity. Would you do the same? There are so many other example of this very thing....I can't share them all because some don't want to publicize it. | ||
| rev_g_r_jordan (rev_g_r_jordan) Junior Member Username: rev_g_r_jordan Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 4.246.3.127 |
Marc Perez NOW we are getting somewhere. FINALLY you have admitted you had a money problem back then. And yesterday you finally admitted you hit your wife, this brings your accuracy rating up to about one tenth of one percent but I must warn you if you keep telling the truth people like Tom Cruise will stop their contributions to factnet. As a good counselor I am patient but we need to continue the progress and recognize that this money problem still exists. Every time you say you do not have a money problem you proudly boast of how much you've given proving that prosperity is what has made your head swell. And while we're talking about boasting and swollen heads PRIDE is the root of your all of your problems (and I am talking about present problems not past problems. You have a present money problem, you have a present pride problem. You have a present child abuse problem. (that was evident when you lashed out at Grant who has done NO ONE any harm). You have a present wife abuse problem, maybe not physical nowadays but the mental abuse has never changed. And ofcourse we don't want to leave out that you have a serious PRESENT lying problem (and don't let this upset you I realize you have been progressing.) And you have an adultery problem now cause several times you have tried to accuse others of committing adultery and the reason I say this about the adultery problem is almost all people caught away in pride eventually commit adultery unless they get control over their pride and I know YOU are no exception. So keep up the good work... YOU ARE PROGRESSING! Rev. G. R. Jordan | ||
| rev_g_r_jordan (rev_g_r_jordan) Junior Member Username: rev_g_r_jordan Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 4.246.3.127 |
Marc Perez NOW we are getting somewhere. FINALLY you have admitted you had a money problem back then. And yesterday you finally admitted you hit your wife, this brings your accuracy rating up to about one tenth of one percent but I must warn you if you keep telling the truth people like Tom Cruise will stop their contributions to factnet. As a good counselor I am patient but we need to continue the progress and recognize that this money problem still exists. Every time you say you do not have a money problem you proudly boast of how much you've given proving that prosperity is what has made your head swell. And while we're talking about boasting and swollen heads PRIDE is the root of your all of your problems (and I am talking about present problems not past problems. You have a present money problem, you have a present pride problem. You have a present child abuse problem. (that was evident when you lashed out at Grant who has done NO ONE any harm). You have a present wife abuse problem, maybe not physical nowadays but the mental abuse has never changed. And ofcourse we don't want to leave out that you have a serious PRESENT lying problem (and don't let this upset you I realize you have been progressing.) And you have an adultery problem now cause several times you have tried to accuse others of committing adultery and the reason I say this about the adultery problem is almost all people caught away in pride eventually commit adultery unless they get control over their pride and I know YOU are no exception. So keep up the good work... YOU ARE PROGRESSING! Rev. G. R. Jordan | ||
| ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Intermediate Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.35.163.206 |
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 8:19 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey everybody....see how the Pharisees like Jordan will twist words to falsely accuse people that leave and speak out against the sins of NTCC? Jordan said this: By the way your wife DID NOT want to go back in the army you forced her not Rev. Olson Ladies and gentlemen, did I say that Rev. Olson forced my wife in the Army? Hmmm? Or did I say that he didn't think it was an all bad idea and that Jordan was for it too? Hmmm? Let's roll back the tape to earlier this morning: ntcctruth (ntcctruth) Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 97 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.42.97.197 Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:46 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, and about making my wife re-enlist. Let me refresh you memory, George, because you omitted most of the facts. First of all, the idea of her going back in to the service (not re-enlisting, but going back, because she did get out) was based on the idea of us being moved to Washington by the military and for us to get out of the situation in California that were in...we needed help. You talked to Rev. Olson about it and you told me that he said "it's not the ideal situation....but under the circumstances...." You told me that under the circumstances, it wasn't a bad idea. You had also mentioned that your wife objected to it and that I wouldn't get reinstated if we did that. You said that you told her that it was not up to her to judge, but for the men of God at Graham. Right? Right? I can see you putting your head down a bit, George. You were for it. I didn't make my wife do anything...you took what she said out of context. She wanted to be a full time mom and minister's wife, but she also recognized the need and we couldn't afford to move ourselves, etc....we needed the help from the military. Thanks for your abusive tirade, George, but I take no offense. Your furry lovable fuzzball still loves you and you have just illustrated to us all why we left. We have heard the trash talk about others who had left while we were in...and yet out of the other side of the mouth we hear of how they would trash talk about NTCC and how it was wrong. Quite a bit of progress? Touchy touchy touchy? LOL....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...GEORGE, YOU HONESTLY MADE ME SMILE AND LAUGH ALL DAY LONG BECAUSE YOU'RE SHOWING US HOW....DEFICIENT YOU ARE....YEAH, THAT'S THE TICKET. THE NERVES THAT WERE TOUCHED WERE CERTAINLY NOT MINE.....AND I GOT SEVERAL PRIVATE EMAILS EXPRESSING THAT VERY SENTIMENT....poor Georgie....wants to be a Davis numbers man so bad but can't do it...so now he's a successful general contractor and a quack crack counselor too. You know why it's that way, George? Because deep down you are a good man and you can't truly bring yourself to whip and fleece and use/abuse your people in a get out the attendance drive for the cult recruitment corporation of NTCC...cuz deep down inside you know better than that...you just gotta have the courage to face the truth...and you'd be alot better off without NTCC's millstone around your neck. That is the truth...post on, George. | ||
| greg_s (greg_s) Member Username: greg_s Post Number: 85 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 203.229.173.34 |
TITLE: “A few reasons why the term Cult (The common, recent, non-dictionary negative definition.) is a misapplication when applied to NTCC.” Or “The NTCC Cult Misnomer Explained.” (Researched last year. Drafted: 8/29/05) (From this point down all ASIDE’s and bracketed items are by greg_s, all else by others.) ASIDE: This is the research behind my earlier statement, “I am still looking at NTCC after fourteen (14) plus (+) years and don’t see the cult.” In other words we researched before we made the statement. We researched the same sources that ExNTCC has referenced from time to time. We also researched before we made the statement “Many characteristics that are common to cults, yes, absolutely.” The only conclusion to arrive at by an NTCC’r that has read the ExNTCC suggested reading assignments. There is a concept that applies; intellectual honesty. [CULT: A Theological Definition] I - The Origin of the Word Cult Our English word cult comes from the Latin word cultus, which is a form of the verb colere, meaning "to worship or give reference to a deity." Cultus was a general word for worship, regardless of the particular god in question. The Vulgate, a Latin translation of the Bible, uses the word in the general sense of worship, regardless of the deity in view. For example, in Acts 17 it is used both of the worship of false gods (v. 23) and of the true God (v. 25). The word is also used in Christian Latin texts that speak of the worship of the one true God. It is understandable, then, that the word cult would naturally be applied to a religious group of people, but this general meaning is too broad for the present purpose. ASIDE: Below the author offers a narrower, therefore more accurate, definition of a cult. This is good because, otherwise, all of us (ExNTCC/NTCC) are cultists. ASIDE: There was a time in recent history when Christians didn’t shy away from being called cultists, because we know what the word means. FACTNet also understands this because they use terms like, “Mind Control”; “Coercive mind control tactics”; “Destructive cults”; “Coercive Psychological System”; et al. FACTNet narrows the definition of what is harmful to restrict intentional misunderstanding. It doesn’t always work but, that is not FACTNet’s fault. II - The Definition of a Cult of Christianity. A Cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible. ASIDE: The complete definition must be applied to NTCC; otherwise the intellectually honest charge must be restricted to “Some Cult like tendencies.” But even saying that has been intentionally misunderstood by disingenuous ExNTCC’rs as we have seen. Many cult characteristics that are common to cults are found in churches, corporations, government, the military, families, et al. Any segment of society that is structured (which is what society is, a structure) has many cult like characteristics. ASIDE: In other words any group (NTCC) that believes in the central doctrines of the Bible is not a cult of Christianity. "A cult of Christianity..." A cult is a group that deviates doctrinally from a "parent" or "host" religion; that is, cults grow out of and deviate from a previously established religion. Non-Christian religions (e.g., world religions) have had cults arise from them as well. Cults of Islam include the Sufis and the Nation of Islam. While these groups claim to be Muslim, they deviate fundamentally from the teaching of Islam, from which they are derived. Cults of Hinduism include Hare Krishna, Self-Realization Fellowship, and Vivekananda. I have deliberately chosen the expression "cult of Christianity" in preference to the term "Christian cult." Phrases such as "Christian cult" or "cultic Christian group" are confusing because they send mixed signals. For most Christians, the word cult refers to a group that is non-Christian. Therefore, the expression "Christian cult" is an oxymoron. The expression "cult of Christianity" makes a clear distinction between Christianity and cults as well as highlighting the derivative nature of cults. "...which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith..." "Central doctrines" of the Christian faith are those doctrines that make the Christian faith Christian and not something else. The meaning of the expression "Christian faith" is not like a wax nose, which can be twisted to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean. The Christian faith is a definite system of beliefs with definite content. (Jude 3) Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian. Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19 ; John 8:24 ; 1 Cor. 15 ; Eph. 2:8-10 ). Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these. Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree. [NTCC believes the following so therefore is not a cult of Christianity:] I – THE SCRIPTURES: We believe that the scriptures (The Bible) are the inspired Word of God, and that they are to be taught and believed in their entirety. (II Timothy 3:16) (II Peter 1:21). That the scriptures will give us a complete revelation of God’s divine plan of Salvation and His will toward man, and that this is to constitute the complete rule of Christians Faith and the practice of the same. II – THE GODHEAD: Our God is a Trinity – Manifest in three distinct Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being co-existent, co-equal, and co-eternal. III – SALVATION: Salvation for man (which is fallen from his perfect and sinless state through Adam) is attained by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ His Son, by His death upon the cross, through the Holy Spirit’s conviction, by repentance, and through an experience of the New Birth. This is accomplished by grace, and is made effectual through faith in Jesus Christ by accepting Him as our Personal Savior. (Titus 2:11) (Romans 10:13-15) (Titus 3:5-7) IV. et al. ASIDE: “CULT OF CHRISTIANITY” EXAMPLE: UPC (United Pentecostal Church) is a cult of Christianity because they don’t believe in the Triune God. (Jesus only) Also, in UPC you aren’t saved if you haven’t been water baptized a certain way. (In Jesus name.) This is what the Catholics believe. (Baptism/sprinkling for salvation.) To UPC it doesn’t matter if you prayed or not. Put another way; UPC is a cult of Christianity but not necessarily a Cult of Coercive Mind Control Tactics. FACTNet does differentiate between the two and does not exist to support the “Some Cult like tendencies” charge. FACTNet avoids any real culpability for abuse of the innocent by “professional enemies of a church” by providing disclaimers. So NTCC is left with two (2) choices: (1) Don’t defend our Christian church. (2) Defend our Christian church. The choice is up to the individual. Either choice, or a combination of the two, is understandable. ASIDE: THE CULT CARD: The use of the Cult charge (Play the Cult Card.) against NTCC is akin to the racism charge (Play the Race Card.) used by some against anyone that person wants to “get back” at. Either Card is an effective form of retaliation against those not prepared for it, and many times effective in spite of being prepared for it. (This thread has been causing people to not only leave NTCC but to stop serving God. That’s not ExNTCC’s stated intent for posting but it is a result of ExNTCC postings.) Also, you will see below that Coercive Psychological Systems are identified by their degree and form of influence not just the presence of influence. A Church should influence you; even to a great degree. The behavior exhibited by the ExNTCC apostate on these threads has been studied by professionals who then coined terminologies (Which we may start using.) to express their findings; as you will see below. ASIDE: To accurately understand the below definitions one must pay attention to adjectives, adverbs, verbs, et al and definitions of words (Don’t intentionally misunderstand, when we say definitions of words we mean the dictionary definition not what you think or want the word to mean.) In other words the methods used to understand FACTNet, et al teachings are the methods used to understand the Bible, Shakespeare, a news paper. If one doesn’t pay attention to adjectives, adverbs, verbs, et al and definitions of words the below information’s application will be too broad and therefore damaging to the innocent. (In this case Christians.) An example of this would be waving around a loaded pistol with the safety off and your finger on the trigger. Another example is ExNTCC on this thread. That is why adjective, adverbs, verbs, et al are used in language: to restrict misunderstanding or aid understanding; however you want to look at it. PROPHESY: More and more we will hear “If you weren’t so sarcastic and mean spirited” people would be more likely to listen to you. CULT: What FACTNet says: Coercive Mind Control Tactics: Terminology note: Today Mind control or brainwashing in academia is commonly referred to as coercive persuasion, coercive psychological systems or coercive influence. The short description below comes from Dr. Margaret Singer professor emeritus at the University of California at Berkeley the acknowledged leading authority in the world on mind control and cults. ASIDE: Note the definition of the word coercive. (She’ll define it for you below.) Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? As you will see “Coercive Mind Control Tactics” are identified by their degree and form of influence; not influence only. Coercion is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as: 1. to force to act or think in a certain manner. 2. To dominate, restrain, or control by force. 3. To bring about by force. ASIDE: Note the definition of the words force, dominate, restrain and control. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. ASIDE: We agree NTCC is not coercive; according to the dictionary. That leaves Mind Control Tactics. Coercive psychological systems are behavioral change programs which use psychological force in a coercive way to cause the learning and adoption of an ideology or designated set of beliefs, ideas, attitudes, or behaviors. The essential strategy used by the operators of these programs is to systematically select, sequence and coordinate many different types of coercive influence, anxiety and stress-producing tactics over continuous periods of time. ASIDE: Note the definition of the words force, coercive, anxiety, stress-producing and continuous. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. In such a program the subject is forced to adapt in a series of tiny "invisible" steps. Each tiny step is designed to be sufficiently small so the subjects will not notice the changes in themselves or identify the coercive nature of the processes being used. The subjects of these tactics do not become aware of the hidden organizational purpose of the coercive psychological program until much later, if ever. These tactics are usually applied in a group setting by well intentioned but deceived "friends and allies" of the victim. This keeps the victim from putting up the ego defenses we normally maintain in known adversarial situations. ASIDE: Note the definition of the words forced, coercive and group setting. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. The coercive psychological influence of these programs aim to overcome the individual's critical thinking abilities and free will - apart from any appeal to informed judgment. Victims gradually lose their ability to make independent decisions and exercise informed consent. Their critical thinking, defenses, cognitive processes, values, ideas, attitudes, conduct and ability to reason are undermined by a technological process rather than by meaningful free choice, rationality, or the inherent merit or value of the ideas or propositions being presented. ASIDE: Note the definition of the word coercive. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. How Do They Work? The tactics used to create undue psychological and social influence, often by means involving anxiety and stress, fall into seven main categories. ASIDE: Note the definition of the words undue, anxiety and stress. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? These categories are defined by what the words and grammar actually mean; not the first gasp, knee jerk, agenda driven understanding. ExNTCC does have an agenda/plan as can be seen by ExNTCC posts both here and at ntcc_support @ yahoogoups.com. Based on the below seven TACTIC’s much more of a case can be made that ExNTCC uses “Coercive Mind Control Tactics” than that NTCC uses “Coercive Mind Control Tactics”. (For those of us that know both sides.) But there exists other, more accurate terms for what ExNTCC has done/does as you will see below. TACTIC 1 Increase suggestibility and "soften up" the individual through specific hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills, Excessive exact repetition of routine activities, Sleep restriction and/or Nutritional restriction. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. TACTIC 2 Establish control over the person's social environment, time and sources of social support by a system of often-excessive rewards and punishments. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. TACTIC 3 Prohibit disconfirming information and non supporting opinions in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC. NTCC’s “in-group” language is the common language of Christianity. (i.e. praise the lord, glory, et al) Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. TACTIC 4 Make the person re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control and defense mechanisms. The subject is guided to reinterpret his or her life's history and adopt a new version of causality. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC, unless one is talking about sin in a person’s life. (Is that your/a problem? NTCC talks about sin in a person’s life?) Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. TACTIC 5 Create a sense of powerlessness by subjecting the person to intense and frequent actions and situations which undermine the person's confidence in himself and his judgment. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. TACTIC 6 Create strong aversive emotional arousals in the subject by use of nonphysical punishments such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. TACTIC 7 Intimidate the person with the force of group-sanctioned secular psychological threats. For example, it may be suggested or implied that failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequences such as physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. These tactics of psychological force are applied to such a severe degree that the individual's capacity to make informed or free choices becomes inhibited. The victims become unable to make the normal, wise or balanced decisions which they most likely or normally would have made, had they not been unknowingly manipulated by these coordinated technical processes. The cumulative effect of these processes can be an even more effective form of undue influence than pain, torture, drugs or the use of physical force and physical and legal threats. ASIDE: Note the definition of the words force, severe undue and unable. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. How does Coercive Psychological Persuasion Differ from Other Kinds of Influence? Coercive psychological systems are distinguished from benign social learning or peaceful persuasion by the specific conditions under which they are conducted. These conditions include the type and number of coercive psychological tactics used, the severity of environmental and interpersonal manipulation, and the amount of psychological force employed to suppress particular unwanted behaviors and to train desired behaviors. ASIDE: Note the definition of the words coercive, severity, manipulation, amount, force and suppress. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. Coercive force is traditionally visualized in physical terms. In this form it is easily definable, clear-cut and unambiguous. Coercive psychological force unfortunately has not been so easy to see and define. The law has been ahead of the physical sciences in that it has allowed that coercion need not involve physical force. It has recognized that an individual can be threatened and coerced psychologically by what he or she perceives to be dangerous, not necessarily by that which is dangerous. ASIDE: Note the definition of the words coercive, threatened and dangerous. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. [ASIDE: What the Law says: From a different source.] In most legal systems, the use of ‘’physical’’ specific coercion by private individuals is a criminal offence in all cases not involving self defense. The picture is less simple for ‘’psychological’’ specific coercion, owing to the general difficulty in finding clear evidence for it. In most systems psychological coercion is treated as a criminal offence when it is aimed at ‘’extortion’’, as is typical of blackmail. It is also punished when it leads to ‘’undue influence’’, defined as a master-slave relationship. ASIDE CONTINUED: Note the definition of the word coercion, blackmail, undue, and master-slave. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. Law has recognized that even the threatened action need not be physical. Threats of economic loss, social ostracism and ridicule, among other things, are all recognized by law, in varying contexts, as coercive psychological forces. ASIDE: Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? Note the use of the word threatened. Also, see legal definition above. Why are Coercive Psychological Systems Harmful? Coercive psychological systems violate our most fundamental concepts of basic human rights. They violate rights of individuals that are guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and affirmed by many declarations of principle worldwide. ASIDE: Note the use of the words coercive, violate and human rights. Not done at NTCC. Why do you disagree? By confusing, intimidating and silencing their victims, those who profit from these systems evade exposure and prosecution for actions recognized as harmful and which are illegal in most countries such as: fraud, false imprisonment, undue influence, involuntary servitude, intentional infliction of emotional distress, outrageous conduct and other tortuous acts. ASIDE: Note the use of the words confusing, intimidating, silencing, profit, fraud, false imprisonment, undue influence, involuntary servitude, intentional infliction of emotional distress, outrageous conduct and other tortuous acts. Not done at NTCC. Again, note the standard of degree and form of influence; not influence only. ASIDE: THE CULT CARD: Again, the use of the Cult charge (Play the Cult Card.) against NTCC is akin to the racism charge (Play the Race Card.) used by some against anyone that person wants to “get back” at. Either Card is an effective form of retaliation against those not prepared for it, and many times effective in spite of being prepared for it. (This thread has been causing people to not only leave NTCC but to stop serving God. That’s not ExNTCC’s stated intent for posting but it is a result of ExNTCC postings.) Also remember that Coercive Psychological Systems are identified by their degree and form of influence not just the presence of influence. A Church should influence you; even to a great degree. ASIDE: The goal of applying the above characteristics of a “Coercive Psychological System” to NTCC required ExNTCC’r to become “drama queens” as opposition to their claims have presented themselves. There is no new information, no news flashes to share so the same information has to be re-presented in a more dramatic form. Since labels are useful; an accurate label of ExNTCC’s of late proofs could be the “Redundant ExNTCC Apostate Drama Queen Type III” narrative. The same concepts as these last sentences are presented below. A type III narrative will also be explained below. END FACTNet DEFINITION ASIDE: A LOOK AT THE ACCUSER: Now lets look at what the same types of people as the above (psychologists, other professionals) say about those that bring charges against churches. ASIDE FROM THE ASIDE: Another way we may be looking at the accuser in the future is through an already drafted possibly upcoming series titled “Darwin in the Church” A by name look at the evolution of individual ExNTCC’rs reason(s) for leaving. [CULTS QUOTATIONS:] "...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer. A humorous quotation, but one that is uncomfortably close to reality. "Cults are claimed to be deceitful. They are claimed to be harmful to their members. They are claimed to be undermining American values. Cults are claimed to be just about every bad thing in the book these days, and with the pervasive images of Manson and Jim Jones hanging over us, any group that is called a cult is immediately associated with those two people." J. Gordon Melton. ASIDE: Melton is considered pro-cult by some. "My working definition of a cult is a group that you don't like, and I say that somewhat facetiously, but at the same time, in fact, that is my working definition of a cult. It is a group that somebody doesn't like. It is a derogatory term, and I have never seen it redeemed from the derogatory connotations that it picked up in the sociological literature in the 1930s." J. Gordon Melton. "...one person's cult is another's religion; all religions begin life as cults. An alternative definition is that a cult is a religion which you happen to dislike." Anthony Campbell Cult is a word without much use outside the realm of religious mudslinging." Philip Kennicott "When someone uses the word 'cult,' it usually says more about them than the group," J. Gordon Melton, founder and director of The Institute for the Study of American Religion. "It's easy to tell the difference - a cult is someone else's religion. Corollary: "A fanatic is someone who believes something more strongly than you do." Jim Heldberg "I have often thought that the difference between a cult and a religion is an IRS ruling." Ron Barrier [VALIDITY CHALLENGED:] Scholars that challenge the validity of critical former members' testimonies as the basis for studying a religious group include David G. Bromley, Anson Shupe, Brian R. Wilson, and Lonnie Kliever. [ON NTCC’S SIDE:] Bromley and Shupe, who studied the social influences on these testimonies asserts that the apostate in his current role is likely to present a caricature of his former group and that the stories of critical ex-members who defect from groups that are subversive (defined as groups with few allies and many opponents) tend to have the form of "captivity narratives" (i.e. the narratives depict the stay in the group as involuntary). [PROFESSIONAL ENEMIES:] Wilson introduces the atrocity story that is rehearsed by the apostate to explain how, by manipulation, coercion or deceit; he was recruited to a group that he now condemns. Introvigne found in his study of the New Acropolis in France, that public negative testimonies and attitudes were only voiced by a minority of the ex-members, who he describes as becoming "professional enemies" of the group they leave. [A DISTORTED VIEW:] Kliever, when asked by the Church of Scientology to give his opinion on the reliability of apostate accounts of their former religious beliefs and practices, writes that these dedicated opponents present a distorted view of the new religions and cannot be regarded as reliable informants by responsible journalists, scholars, or jurists. He claims that the reason for the lack of reliability of apostates is due to the traumatic nature of disaffiliation that he compares to a divorce and also due the influence of the anti-cult movement even on those apostates who were not deprogrammed or received exit counseling. [ON ExNTCC’s SIDE:] Scholars who tend to side more with critical former members include David C. Lane, Louis Jolyon West, Margaret Singer [The sighted FACTNet authority.], Stephen A. Kent, Benjamin Beith-Hallahmi and Benjamin Zablocki. The latter performed an empirical study that showed that the reliability of former members is equal to that of stayers in one particular group. Philip Lucas found the same empirical results. ASIDE: The best ExNTCC is going to get from studies (when all things are considered) is there is equal reliability within and without a group; which means at the very best a tie. In purported cults and new religious movements (NRMs) [A PUBLIC SERVICE:] Apostates in this context are those individuals that leave new religious movements and become public opponents against their former faith. Some new religious movements have become the targets of apostate’s critical web sites in which they warn the public of their purported dangers and harm. These opponents typically disclose unflattering perspectives, testimonials, and information that, purportedly the religious movements they belonged to do not disclose. They typically assert that by disseminating this information they perform a public service that enables current and prospective member to make an informed choice about joining or staying with a religious movement. Some of the groups being criticized, in turn, claim being the target of religious intolerance, or hate by these critics. [A PLETHORA OF CHARGES:] Testimonies of allegations made by apostates of purported cults and new religious movements include: failed promises, sexual abuse by the leader who claimed to be pure and divine, false, irrational and contradictory teachings, deception, financial exploitation, demonizing of the outside world, long lasting emotional pain and depression upon disaffiliation, abuse of power and hypocrisy of the leadership, discrimination, unnecessary secrecy, teaching platitudes, discouragement of critical thinking, brainwashing, mind control, exclusivism, pedophilia, leadership that does not admit any mistakes, and more. [EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS:] Anti-cult activists and some scholars use the term post-cult trauma to describe the emotional problems that some members of cults and new religious movements may experience upon apostasy. Some scholars and sociologists in the field of new religious movements assert that traumas are more likely caused by deprogramming, not by voluntary leave-taking. [APOSTATE MOTIVES:] The apostates' motivations, the roles they play in the anti-cult movement, the validity of their testimony, and the kinds of narratives they construct are have been studied by sociologists and other scholars: • [NTCC SIDE] Bryan R. Wilson, a professor of Sociology at Oxford University in a collection of essays he edited in 1987, writes that apostates of new religious movements are generally in need of self-justification, seeking to reconstruct his own past and to excuse his former affiliations, while blaming those who were formerly their closest associates. Wilson introduces the atrocity story that is rehearsed by the apostate to explain how, by manipulation, coercion or deceit; he was recruited to a group that he now condemns. Wilson also challenges the reliability of the apostate's testimony by saying that "[apostates] always be seen as one whose personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious commitment and affiliations, the suspicion must arise that he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently to have become a redeemed crusader." • [BALANCED] Jean Duhaime, a professor of religious studies and science of religion at the Université de Montréal writes, based upon his analysis of three memoirs by apostates of NRMs (Dubreuil, Huguenin, Lavallée), that he is more balanced than some researchers, referring to Wilson, and that apostate testimonies can not be dismissed, only because they are not objective. • [NTCC SIDE] Bromley and Shuppe while discussing the role of anecdotal atrocity stories by apostates, propose that these are likely to paint a caricature of the group, shaped by the apostate's current role rather than his experience in the group, and question's their motives and rationale. In studies by Lewis Carter and David Bromley, it is presented that the onus of pathology experienced by former members of new religions movements shifted from these groups to the coercive activities of the anti-cult movement. As a result of this study, the treatment (coerced or voluntary) of former members as people in need of psychological assistance largely ceased. These studies also point out that the lack of any widespread need for psychological help by former members of new religions has in itself become the strongest evidence refuting early sweeping condemnations of new religions as causes of psychological trauma. • [ExNTCC SIDE] An article by Benjamin Beith-Hallahmi, a professor of psychology at the University of Haifa, argues that academic supporters of New religious movements are engaged in a rhetoric of advocacy, apologetics and propaganda, and argues that in the cases of cult catastrophes such as People's Temple, or Heaven's Gate, allegations by hostile outsiders and detractors have been closer to reality than other accounts, and that in that context statements by ex-members turned out to be more accurate than those offered by apologists and NRM researchers. • [ExNTCC SIDE] Mark Dunlop (an apostate of FWBO) argues in his article The Culture of Cults that ex-members of cultic groups face great obstacles in exposing abuses committed by these groups, stating that ex-members "have great difficulty in disproving ad-homonym arguments, such as that they have a personal axe to grind, that they are trying to find a scapegoat to excuse their own failure or deficiency... Cults have a vested interest in challenging the personal credibility of their critics, and may cultivate academic researchers who attack the credibility and motives of ex-members." Dunlop further expands on the specific difficulties faced by ex-members in proving harms done to them: "If an ex-member claims that they were subjected to brainwashing or mind-control techniques, not only is this again unprovable, but it is tantamount to admitting that they are a gullible and easily led person whose opinions, consequently, can't be worth much. If an ex-member suffers from any mental disorientation or evident psychiatric symptoms, this is likely to further diminish their credibility as a reliable informant." He concludes with "In general, the public credibility of critical ex-cultists seems to be somewhere in between that of Estate Agents and flying saucer abductees." In the article's summary, Dunlop argues that given that the apostates' testimony is ineffective due to lack of public credibility, and that other forms of criticism are also ineffectual for various reasons, cults are virtually immune from outside criticism making it very difficult to "expose cults". • [NTCC SIDE] Dr. Lonnie D. Kliever, Professor of Religious Studies of the Southern Methodist University, in his paper titled The Reliability of Apostate testimony about New Religious movements that he wrote upon request for Scientology; claims that the overwhelming majority of people who disengage from non-conforming religions harbor no lasting ill-will toward their past religious associations and activities, and that by contrast there is a much smaller number of apostates who are deeply invested and engaged in discrediting and performing actions designed to destroying the religious communities that once claimed their loyalties. He asserts that these dedicated opponents present a distorted view of the new religions and cannot be regarded as reliable informants by responsible journalists, scholars, or jurists. He claims that the reason for the lack of reliability of apostates is due to the traumatic nature of disaffiliation that he compares to a divorce and also due the influence of the anti-cult movement even on those apostates who were not deprogrammed or received exit counseling. • [TIE] Dr. Phillip Charles Lucas interviewed ex-members of the Holy order of MANS/Christ the Savior Brotherhood and compared them with stayers, and outside observers and came to the conclusion that they are as unreliable as stayers. • [TIE] Dr. Benjamin Zablocki found the same results after analyzing leaver responses. • [TIE] Gordon Melton, while testifying as an expert witness in a lawsuit, said that when investigating groups, one should not rely solely upon the unverified testimony of ex-members, and that hostile ex-members invariably shade the truth and blow out of proportion minor incidents turning them into major incidents. • [BIAS NOT DETERMINED YET] Massimo Introvigne in his Defectors, Ordinary Leave takers and Apostates, defines three types of narratives constructed by apostates of new religious movements: Type I narratives - characterize the exit process as defection, in which the organization and the former member negotiate an exiting process aimed at minimizing the damage for both parties. Type II narratives - involve a minimal degree of negotiation between the exiting member, the organization it intends to leave, and the environment or society at large, implying that the ordinary apostate holds no strong feelings concerning his past experience in the group. Type III narratives - characterized by the ex-member dramatically reversing his loyalties and becomes a professional enemy of the organization he has left. These apostates often join an oppositional coalition fighting the organization, often claiming victimization. Introvigne argues that apostates professing type II narratives prevail among exiting members of controversial groups or organizations, while apostates that profess type III narratives are a vociferous minority. • [TIE] Gordon Melton, quoting studies by Lewis Carter and David Bromley, argues that the onus of pathology experienced by former members of new religions movements shifted from these groups to the coercive activities of the anti-cult movement. As a result of this study, the treatment (coerced or voluntary) of former members as people in need of psychological assistance largely ceased. These studies also claim that a lack of any widespread need for psychological help by former members of new religions has in itself become the strongest evidence refuting early sweeping condemnations of new religions as causes of psychological trauma. ASIDE: INTERESTING NOTE: Just as Cult applies to NTCC; (and every other Christian church) Apostate applies to ExNTCC. (and every other Christian that has ever switched denominations) CULT – n. 1. A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. APOSTATE - n. 1. A person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc. –adj. 2. Of or characterized by apostasy. ASIDE CONCLUSION: THE CULT CARD: Again, any group (NTCC) that believes in the central doctrines of the bible is not a cult of Christianity. NTCC believes the central doctrines of the bible so is not a cult of Christianity. Again, the use of the Cult charge (Play the Cult Card.) against NTCC is akin to the racism charge (Play the Race Card.) used by some against anyone that person wants to “get back” at. Either Card is an effective form of retaliation against those not prepared for it, and many times effective in spite of being prepared for it. (This thread has been causing people to not only leave NTCC but to stop serving God. That’s not ExNTCC’s stated intent for posting but it is a result of ExNTCC postings.) Also remember, as shown above, “Coercive Psychological Systems” are identified by their degree and form of influence not just the presence of influence, which excludes NTCC from that category also. A Church should influence you; even to a great degree. A church that doesn’t influence you is useless. (Message edited by Greg_s on August 31, 2005) | ||
| victorjohanson (victorjohanson) Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
I will happily adopt the label "NTCC apostate," but that doesn't make me an apostate toward God. As you have no doubt discovered, the "C word" is loaded and perhaps not useful in this context. "Abusive religious system" would cover it, though. Vic Johanson | ||
| imaskingwhy (imaskingwhy) Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.58.96.174 |
I don't believe ntcc is a cult in the strict sense of the word. Doctrinally I don't believe they are a cult although I do question the JDS doctrine and personally believe it is wrong, but like others, it is not problematic to salvation. However from a social view it seems to me ntcc does have some cult like characteristics, especially the authoritarion hierchy of the org. control issues on every aspect of the individuals life and if a minister, on his ministry. I also associate the way finances are kept secret with cult like behavior. But the bottom line is that ntcc is not a cult in my opinion but rather a work based pentecostal sect. A cookie cutter religion where everyone has to think the same down to every jot and title. This also strikes many as being cultlike from a social standpoint. | ||
| almostout New member Username: almostout Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 85.195.123.22 |
Thank you for the research. My wife and I are about to make our break and these articles were very helpful in opening our eyes. Thanks again. | ||
| mklo Member Username: mklo Post Number: 76 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.118.158 |
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. | ||
| mklo Member Username: mklo Post Number: 82 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.118.158 |
*bump* | ||
| mklo Intermediate Member Username: mklo Post Number: 192 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.118.158 |
*bump* | ||
| firedup Member Username: firedup Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 62.253.128.15 |
The Handful of HATE-FULL ex-faithful are living in an ECHO CHAMBER. | ||
| sammyrooster Member Username: sammyrooster Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.126.133.31 |
Sammy Here: Almost Out: I do not know who you are, but you should think very hard and very long before you leave NTCC. If you have problems, talk to Rev. Kekel and tell him what your problem is. And this statement will really "raise the roof", but it is a fact. Those that leave, NEVER do anything for the Lord. I am not telling you this to keep you from leaving, but you should look at those that have left, what have they done? Question them, ask them where they are faithful NOW. Notice, I did not say they COULD NOT, I said THEY HAVE NOT, no not one. I will be praying for you. Sammy | ||
| judgeallthings New member Username: judgeallthings Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.40.15.23 |
"Notice, I did not say they COULD NOT, I said THEY HAVE NOT, no not one." (rooster) Dear Mr. Rooster, Wow - you must be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. I didn't know it was possible to know the personal lives of everyone who has left your organization since 1968 (or whatever year you started recruiting). It has to number in the thousands, at least. That's simply amazing. You should tell your secrets of how you find all this information on people to the FBI, CIA, CTU, Secret Service, and all other agencies that help to protect the citizens of the United States. Armed with your powers they should be able to find Osama. You're real funny, thanks for the humor. Ted G. | ||
| soki_soba New member Username: soki_soba Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 210.79.187.100 |
So, if someone is not faithful in NTCC, they aren't "doing anything for God"? Please help me understand. After I left your church, I met people in my new church who had also left NTCC. As a matter of fact, the young lady headed up our envangelism and outreach team. We never knew each other while in NTCC, but even after we both left we were still serving God. We still have a relationship with God. We left NTCC. Can anyone say that we have not done anything for God since we left? Oh but wait--people who leave "NEVER do anything for the Lord." I am sure that there are some people in NTCC who are not doing anything for God, nor anything for God's people. We need to be careful making blanket statements about people when we do not know people or what is in their hearts. Only God knows our hearts, and we do not need to start pretending to be him. | ||
| soki_soba New member Username: soki_soba Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 210.79.187.100 |
So, if someone is not faithful in NTCC, they aren't "doing anything for God"? Please help me understand. After I left your church, I met people in my new church who had also left NTCC. As a matter of fact, the young lady headed up our envangelism and outreach team. We never knew each other while in NTCC, but even after we both left we were still serving God. We still have a relationship with God. We left NTCC. Can anyone say that we have not done anything for God since we left? Oh but wait--people who leave "NEVER do anything for the Lord." I am sure that there are some people in NTCC who are not doing anything for God, nor anything for God's people. We need to be careful making blanket statements about people when we do not know people or what is in their hearts. Only God knows our hearts, and we do not need to start pretending to be him. | ||
| mklo Intermediate Member Username: mklo Post Number: 194 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.118.158 |
Mr. Rooster, would you please tell us what it means to "do something for God?" Do you suppose that organization-building is the only way to accumulate treasures in heaven? Those of us who have been through the wringer of NTCC are well aware that this is the idea promoted by your leadership, and which you parrot. Davis's idea of "doing something for God" is to gather a personal following. What does he mean when he says, "What have YOU ever done for God?" I've asked this question before on this forum, but no one has even attempted an answer. Just how big an organization can be built of wood, hay, and stubble, Mr. Rooster? My understanding is that Jesus taught something entirely different from your leaders. If we consider the story of the widow's two mites, and such sayings as: "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." and "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he," we begin to see a different picture. Mr. Rooster, what meant the Lord by "least" in the above passage? "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." Fact is, servants don't ever attract much attention. They are never noticed among men. God's servants labor in obscurity, and are content to do so all day long. What did Lazarus ever do for God, Mr. Rooster? Or the woman who anointed Jesus feet? What was the name of her organization again? How many did she have on Sunday? What do you make of a woman who goes to work every day to help battered wives and addicts, Mr. Rooster? Loving them unconditionally, helping them past their issues? Emptying herself daily for the unloved and unlovable? Restoring their self esteem? Would you consider her to be "doing something for God?" Would your leaders? Would Jesus? What about adopting a retarded, fetal-alcohol syndrome child that was taken from an unspeakable environment by the CPS? What about opening your home to a child born loaded on meth, who had no home to go to from the hospital? Is that doing something for God, Mr. Rooster? Or does that not qualify in your books? Is this what people in your organization are encouraged to do? Be honest, for God already knows. Is taking up an offering to by the preacher a Cadillac DOING SOMETHING FOR GOD? "...but it is a fact. Those that leave, NEVER do anything for the Lord." - NTCC preacher Since you, Mr. Rooster, strutted out here like a C0CK making sweeping statements about the thousands of souls who have rejected NTCC over the years, I will wait earnestly upon you for some jewels of w |
