| Author | Message | ||
     foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 142 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Jesus in the flesh today This doctrine is not exclusive to HH. I thought it was until I found this today. It is NOT written by anyone in HH, but it is all too familiar to me. How many times had I heard many of the same verses out of context used to convince me to not trust my own personal relation to God directly and convince me of my need for God’s tangible authority in order to know God. Bold letters are my emphasis not the author’s, underlining is the author’s emphasis . CONSIDER THIS If you are not a pharmacist, you wouldn’t dream of going to a pharmacological bible to attempt to make a drug to help someone; nor would you consider using medical guidebooks to perform surgery to save lives, if you were not a professional surgeon. Thus, no minister should attempt to use the scriptures, unless his life manifests the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (God). Scripture bears this out. "How shall they hear without a preacher (prophet)? and how shall they preach (prophesy), except they be sent?" (Rom 10:14-15). "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom 10:17), not from reading the Bible. The word of God is clearly described as something presently alive. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword ... and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb 4:12). "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). Who fulfils this in our day, and clearly has the word which is shown by giving the very thoughts of our minds? Who raises the dead, makes the blind to see and the deaf to hear? Who corrects bones? Truth is still in the Bible, but a prophet is needed to make it clear. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me (in the original this means they testify of the Christ annointed nature), and ye will not come to me that ye might have life" (John 5:39-40). There is a prophet in our day who unquestioningly proves that he is sent from God. He has all the gifts of the spirit as given in the Bible: Word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues and interpretation of tongues (See I Cor 12:8-10). We must have a prophet who is living the Christ life to direct us in this hour. Consider the scripture that says "Deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" II John 7. "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us ... Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us ... But the word is very nigh unto thee" (Deut 30:12-14). This means now. This means today. "Man shall not live by bread alone (an original Bible writer interprets this as tablets of scripture), but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matt 4:4). | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
And more. It is NOT written by anyone in HH, MESSAGE FROM THE APOSTLE I have come to make God real in the lives of people. My only desire is to establish the great work of Jesus Christ on our troubled globe. I have taken the true scriptures to heart, where it declares in Philippians 2 for us to "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God"1 (and we are all created in His image and likeness-form). I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I (my personal ambitions), but Christ liveth in me." 2 ... As Paul the apostle related in yesteryear, "follow me as I follow Christ."9 I am causing untold thousands to believe in the Jesus of ancient history by the great miracles of healings, prophecies and discernments I perform in His name! Many have believed God to be dead until I showed them that He is as tangible as the food they eat and the air they breathe. Oh, what a privilege it is to live in this recognition and be able to personify the Mind and Works of God in Christ, therefore enabling the pure in heart to see God,10 and know Him aright, which is life eternal. Jesus asked when they would stone him, For what good works do you stone me? If you cannot receive me for my name sake, receive me for my work sake. I am fulfilling His words that we are gods and sons of the Most High,11 and that these things that He did and greater will ye do because He has gone back to the Father. What I am doing so must ye do, that is become living epistles, read and known of all men, (the only Bible or epistle people really read and believe in nowadays).12 I am letting concerned humanity see my good works that they might glorify God, the Father.13 (Message edited by foreverhis on June 03, 2006) (Message edited by foreverhis on June 03, 2006) | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 574 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.60.85 |
May the Lord help us... | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 575 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.60.85 |
A pastor called me and said Sister Alvear remember these words, "Only a coward will be silent when the truth of the Bible is under attack". The truth of the matter concerning any group is that no one is Jesus in the flesh. I am so sick of seeing the devil deceive so many people in our world. The word became FLESH and dwelt among us...that is the only God in the Flesh that human eyes will ever behold. Blessings and peace to all. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 149 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
This WAS writen by HH author from a book titled “How Do You Know?” From pages 81 & 82 ....so John gives the church the test to protect each flock from the hostile and murderous spirit of antichrist, warning us not to trust or ''believe'' those who have a spirit that cannot fully and certainly accept the anointing in ''us,'' who cannot accept the same authority that Jesus possessed as it '' continues to come in our human nature." If they cannot receive the Word that the ministry preaches as indeed it is, the Word of God (1 Thess. 2:13), if they cannot accept as constitutional (apart from their own decision in each situation) that the ministry beseeches them "in Christ's stead'' (2Cor. 5:20, KJV), if they cannot fully and certainly confess that Jesus' anointing continues to come in the flesh, in ''our human nature," in the local expression of the corporate Body of Jesus to which God would join them, but rather they refuse to "listen to us," then they are not to be received into fellowship in the Body. ..... Jesus then said In His ''good confession," ''Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." This is the same as John's test: ''We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us'' (1 John 4:6). Someone who refuses to submit to God's definition of truth expressed in the authority of tangible human flesh simply desires to manipulate the truth to correspond to his own desires. He resists any truth that would represent a given beyond his own mind, and so he denies any tangible authority that would testify to the absoluteness of truth. Such a person cannot hear God's voice in human flesh, for he desires to leave truth in the abstract, relativist realm of his own mind.... From page 83 Paul underscores this necessity to discern God's authority in human flesh when he says that ''faith comes by hearing'' but ''hearing'' must be ''by the Word of God," and how can they ''hear without a preacher?'' (Rom. 10:14, 17, NKJV). Believers must receive the Word ''as it really is," the Word of God spoken through human flesh ''sent from God." To hear the Word as the word of mere men profits the hearer nothing. They must discern the Body of Christ (1 Cor.11:29) as speaking the anointed Word to them. Yet Paul says, ''but they [who have heard] had not all obeyed the gospel (Rom. 10:16, KJV). From page 84 All will be tested by the increasing light of God’s restored covenant. And the supream questions in this test are: “will it be revealed that we truly belong to Jesus? Are we willing to have Him define all our covenants and have His desires become ours? Can we submit to God’s authority in human flesh, or will it become a rock of offence to us? When the Son of man returns will He find faith in our hearts (Luke 18:8)?” So this authority, as Jesus said (John 17:2-3), becomes then critical in our ability to know God. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 150 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
From pages 94 & 95 A prospective member must trust the Spirit to give him the perfect doctrinal interpretation of God's Word, but he must also remember that because of both his limited function and his carnal nature, that interpretation will not necessarily or even normally originate through the individual himself. Paul said in Romans, ''Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,'' but "how shall they hear without a Preacher and how can they preach unless they are sent?" (Rom. 10:17, 14-15, NKJV). So if the Spirit leads a prospective member into covenant relationship with a Christian fellowship, he must trust that God plans to reveal His truth to him through them.... I must give thanks to the Brother who originaly typed this up from HH literature. I just copied and pasted it to this thread. The original thread is much more exstensive and I recomend it if you have not read it yet. http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=177809#POST177809 | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 579 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.11.57 |
I just think it is a very sad day for the church world when leaders of any group think they are Jesus in the flesh... | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 151 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Both groups were taught to trust the interpretation of scripture give by their “tangible Jesus in the flesh." Both groups of people were reminded of their own carnal nature and that would get in the way of interpreting scripture and knowing God's will directly through the Holy Spirit. Neither Group was reminded that the "Jesus in their flesh" still could also fall prey to the carnal nature and lead them all down a wrong path. Both claimed they only answered directly to God. “The Order of Perfection”. From HH authors “ To briefly reiterate, apostle means , as shown, one who is “sent forth”. The apostle of Jesus Christ is one who is sent forth directly by the Spirit of Jesus and is directly responsible to the Spirit. No intermediate ministry stands between him and the Head. He is the first ( 1 Cor. 12:28) in God’s unfolding chain of revelation to the church. His is the initiating ministry. His primary duty is to preach the revelation of God by which the Body structures and builds itself, to bring the living word – not that he has “built upon” but that he has founded, initiated – to God’s people as a whole ( 2 Tim. 4:2; Rom. 10:14; 1 Cor. 1:17; 9:16; Mark 3:14 ) As the initiating ministry within the Body, the apostle is the chief means whereby the Spirit directly initiates building activity within the Body of Christ. Everything , the Bible tells us, must be done in decency and in order (1 Cor. 14:40, KJV ), and the order through which the Spirit initiates new revelation, sows the founding seed of his overall pattern for the churches, is through the apostolic ministry.” For more of “The Order of Perfection”. see http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=232518#POST232518 Both claimed obedience to the words their tangible Jesus in the Flesh as necessary in order to know God and that refusal to accept it as God's own word was the spirit of the anti-Christ. Both told followers not to listen to people who would not listed to the tangible Jesus because they were anti-Christ, protecting their members from views opposing their own. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 580 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.11.57 |
Brother Nilton had once been a hit man for the police and political groups. Killing was on his everyday agenda. He was afraid of no one. It was not conviction that brought him to our mist but a church outing where the brothers invited him to join with them in a game of soccer. “I have never met people like you all before, he told the brothers and that was all that was needed for them to invite him to a church service. For the past 3 years I have watched him change from a vicious hardened killer to a gentle lamb. Arriving back home yesterday I noticed a group of our brothers on my front porch in a circle praying. I got out of the car and saw them praying for Brother Nilton who was weeping. When he looked up and saw me he said, 'Oh mother missionary' (that’s what he calls me) robbers came and stole my bicycle. And he started weeping again. His bicycle to him means what your car means to you. That is his transportation to come to work and to come to church. I watched as another one of the brothers went and got his almost new bile and said, “My brother you can have my bike.” “But you need it brother” Nilton replied. The other brother reached and put his arms around him and said, “For this reason we are brothers to help one another.” I saw Jesus and his love manifested and wept myself to see such a display of love for the old Nilton would not have been a weeping lamb but would have killed those that took his bike. I thought oh what a change… Even though I saw the love of Jesus manifest from one poor brother giving his bike to his other poor brother neither were Jesus in the flesh. They are sweet brothers fruits of our ministry but not Jesus in the flesh. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 153 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
What a lovely testimony of the regenerating power of "Christ in us" for each born again believer. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 154 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Do you know where the New Covenant is written? Well it is not in one of their books, nor is it handed down from them. We will hear the Gospel of God preached by men, (and now also recorded in the Bible as it was preached by them.) Then once we repent and accept the Gospel as God's plan for our salvation, God will write that New Covenant on our hearts!!!! The very place these men don't want you to look. The very place they said you will be deceived by. But, your heart is no longer desperately wicked. You have been born again. His Spirit abides in you. 31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:31 | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 156 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Jesus said He must go away so the Spirit would come and guide us in all things. Yet these men say Jesus is still here in the flesh, that they are him, and they here to guide you. They want you to look to them, not the Spirit. They usurp the Holy Spirits place. John Chapter 16 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more ... 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. God in the flesh went- and God as Spirit came. We will be guided by the Spirit. God has put gifts in the body to equip the saints and serve them, not to tell them what to do, not to ursurp the Holy Spirit's place of leading. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he has promised us, eternal life. 26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you; 27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him. 1 John 2:24-27 | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 235 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Foreverhis, Jesus said He must go away so the Spirit would come and guide us in all things. Yet these men say Jesus is still here in the flesh ... Greetings Robin, if this is a concern for you from an exegetical standpoint, there is lots we could discuss, include eschatology, and of course the John epistle verses (on which HH has done some fine labor of study and exegesis). However, in light of the simple construct you attempt above (Holy Spirit here, Jesus Christ not here) please share your exegesis of the following verses ... Philippians 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Simply put, do you make a distinction between the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ ? Are they separate spirits ? And if the Spirit of Jesus Christ is manifest today, does He not manifest through the believers, the true church of Jesus Christ ? John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Does this not say quite clearly that Jesus Christ will come to you, will manifest through the body of Messiah ? Thanks. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 581 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.130 |
Not the way HH teaches...no a thousand times no. Christ is in me but I am not Christ...that is so far out...just today a group of preachers were talking to me on how could someone stray so far from the Bible. If that teaching was so then we have lots of Christs running around who cannot even agree with themselves... Prax. you are an educated man I cannot believe you believe that you are Jesus in the flesh in the manner that if you come to me with some doctrine and I do not accept it I have rejected Jesus? We manifest Christ but we are not Christ. So much for my thoughts... | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 237 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
And I think a lot of our difference here is semantics (that is why I liked the posts from bishopdad discussing consistency). And some is misrepresentation. I have read one HH book on confessing Jesus come in the flesh, and I simply do not see how you could try to say that the HH view is "we are Christ" or "lots of Christs" (which would be a gnostic view if held in any sort of formal or literal fashion). The reference is to His Spirit working through the Body of Messiah, and yes, there is an element of authority through ministry that HH views as an essential part of the body. Mrs. Alvear, I can understand that folks may look at this teaching differently. Fair enough. At one point I did a fairly exhaustive study of the exegetical views of the John epistle verses "confess Jesus come in the flesh". It was a fascinating study and helped me to understand the HH view. There really are some open questions, loose ends, and exegetical weak points in the rather various ways those three verses are handled in the the evangelical world. Anyway, in relating the views, including those of HH, let's try to bend over backwards to be fair in our representations. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| happyishe Junior Member Username: happyishe Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 70.250.153.6 |
I know this has come up before, but once more please; prax, how much time did you spend as a member of HH? | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 582 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.101.33 |
Foreverhis: Someone has a request for you could you send me your e mail. Thanks. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 2125 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.10 |
i know JESUS dwells with me. HE came in when i beleived and was saved by HIM oh i do thank GOD that i dont need a "head prophet " over me as i have JESUS MY SAVIOR IN my HEART and my life | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 583 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.101.33 |
This WAS writen by HH author from a book titled “How Do You Know?” From pages 81 & 82 ....so John gives the church the test to protect each flock from the hostile and murderous spirit of antichrist, warning us not to trust or ''believe'' those who have a spirit that cannot fully and certainly accept the anointing in ''us,'' who cannot accept the same authority that Jesus possessed as it '' " If they cannot receive the Word that the ministry preaches as indeed it is, the Word of God (1 Thess. 2:13), if they cannot accept as constitutional (apart from their own decision in each situation) that the ministry beseeches them (2Cor. 5:20, KJV), but rather they refuse to "listen to us," then they are not to be received into fellowship in the Body. ..... Jesus then said In His ''good confession," ''Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." This is the same as John's test: ''We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us'' (1 John 4:6). relativist realm of his own mind.... From page 83 Paul underscores this necessity to when he says that ''faith comes by hearing'' but ''hearing'' must be ''by the Word of God," and how can they ''hear without a preacher?'' (Rom. 10:14, 17, NKJV). Believers must receive the Word ''as it really is," the Word of God spoken through human flesh ''sent from God." To hear the Word as the word of mere men profits the hearer nothing. They must discern the Body of Christ (1 Cor.11:29) as speaking the anointed Word to them. Yet Paul says, ''but they [who have heard] had not all obeyed the gospel (Rom. 10:16, KJV). From page 84 All will be tested by the And the supream questions in this test are: “will it be revealed that we truly belong to Jesus? Are we willing to have Him define all our covenants and have His desires become ours? When the Son of man returns will He find faith in our hearts (Luke 18:8)?” May Jesus help us all... | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 584 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.101.33 |
I am weeping... | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 158 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.56 |
I will be very busy most of the next three days starting this morning. Since I type so slowly I will not have time between my obligations to really get in to this during these three days. My e-mail address is formerHH@yahoo.com I do not check it as often as I should. I will now that I know someone might send me an e-mail. I welcome it. Until later when I can address these recent posts I can only say I agree with Christ is in me but I am not Christ.. May I add: Christ is in us, but we are not Christ... God Bless you all | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 239 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, And I will share again, to frame the HH position as "I am Christ" "I am not Christ" is only an attempt to misrepresent the position ... that Jesus Christ is manifest (his nature, authority, purpose), He comes in the flesh, through the corporate body of Messiah, including the five-fold ministry for discipleship, teaching, ministry. The reason it is a misrepresentation is that it leads to the very false attacks that men are being worshipped, or believe themselves to actually be Jesus Christ, or others look at men today as the man Christ Jesus Himself (yes, they have gone so offbase on this forum), or that the understanding is in somewhat analagous to the gnostic and new age "Christ consciousness" types of views. For Ishe, about seven years, I think, and various visits and contacts thereafter and beforeafter :-). For ART, I do not see a point in doctrinal discussions with you on any topic. See the "dictated by Paul" thread for an example of why. Above you make some reasonable points, yet also miss the gist of my post. However, dialog with you is not possible in your current state, and my efforts here will be conserved to threads and people where there really is some edification, learning, respect. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 241 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Wow.. talk about a nonsense post. Rarely have I seen such blustering-parsing confusion. Thanks, ART... in your current state, it's a bizarro world .. if you don't go haywire on a simple, accurate post... only then will I will have to be concerned that I actually missed something. And please do not use the "friend" stuff when your are only involving in railing accusation. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 245 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, ART, I would prefer not to focus on your exegetical arguments here, since the tone and tude is the real concern, and shuts off dialog. However for the accuracy of teaching, for you, myself and the forum, since you attempted to make a doctrinal point against a basic HH exegetical understanding based on your own misunderstanding, it is proper to take a minute to correct the fundamental error. Ironically, you even presented the error here in the form of a grammatical teaching. Art .. Study it out, "ye" is used by the KJV Translators to distinguish plural from singular in many cases with "you" ... plural corporate form. This is simply incorrect. And all your arguments above using this error should best be discarded or revamped. 'Thee' and 'thou' are 'thy' are 'thine' are singular forms ... while 'ye' and 'you' and 'your' and 'yours' are plural forms (easy to remember .. begins with 't' is singular, with 'y' is plural). (The other differences between the words are grammatical case, nominative (subject) or objective or genetive or posessive .. learning all of that can get into complex grammar, and mostly one understands the differences naturally simply by reading in context. Personally I am no grammar whiz, limited studies of English, and rarely do any grammar-parsing.) One classic example of the superiority of the King James Bible high English, which includes this distinction, now lost in most new writing, can be seen in ... John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. While Jesus was speaking to the (singular/thee) Nicodemus the 'Ye' to be born again is not just Nicodemus, it's a plural form. Note that the English is maintaining a distinction that is given in the Greek, and that is usually lost in modern translations. Here is a second example. Satan is not only desiring to sift Peter, but all the brethren. Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Ironically, the oft-belittled 'you all' or y'all acts as a more precise form of language than in the 'non-redneck' parts of the US, allowing for the singular/plural distinction. And here are a couple of good articles on the distinction. http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/bacon-theethou.html Thee, Thou, and Ye Also the section "5. Practical Reasons" at ... http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/flanders-whykjv.html Why We Use The King James Version of the Bible By Dr. Richard Flanders http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/thoutheethineye.htm The Language of the King James Bible; Gail Riplinger Thou, Thee, Thine, & Ye - Singular and Plural http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou Thou - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://sightlerpublications.com/King%20James%20Bible/EnglishKJB.html Why The English Of The King James Bible Is Better Than That Of All The Modern Versions. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 249 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, My sharing about John 14 being an HH understanding about the manifestation of the body of Christ that we shared as a sound and reasonable exegesis was in fact confirmed by a contact post-facto. (It may or may not be in some literature, that I did not research.) First and only time anything like the post-facto confirmation has occurred, so it definitely should not be given wider swath than the thread above. However, HH was apparently concerned about there being a false and grammatically-unsound attack on their views, on a foundational doctrinal point of much discussion on which they have specifically written deeply and shared, in a public forum where folks look for every angle to attack and accuse, especially doctrinally. For more on this, you are welcome to email me privately (which would surely have been better than the bumbling-blustering-accusatory post above) and are more than welcome to do any checking you like. As for your simple, uncomplicated errors, such as noted above, and specifically stating that 'you' would be singular ... ART "you" which in KJV, as far as I know, conentates the singular. it would be the humble path to simply acknowledge you were mistaken, (rather than try to divert by making unclear accusations of my supposed 'error in language and the KJV') so the thread can continue properly and the readers have the truth of the matter without hand-waving. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 250 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Our above posts above are out-of-order because I deleted a post, for more completeness (and because I wasn't getting the codes coming down for color in my browser). ======= ART, my posts stands for themselves. Perhaps you are not reading them carefully. Remember, I have mentioned that I read a book from HH about "confessing Jesus come in the flesh" and felt it quite an interesting and reasonable read, and researched some of the tense and exegesis issues. So I am happy to use my limited background on the topic to offer counterpoint to foreverhis or you or others when I feel the representation of their view is not accurate. That is very far from being a 'proxy' and your spirit of false accusation seems to be at work full-time. ART, sadly, your one skill here is many accusations -- "puppetry, proxy, deceitful, twisting, self-emulations, self-serving prevaricator" and on an on... And all such simply fall to the ground, sadly. You seem to be in a very difficult place. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 251 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Incidentally, since you asked, the reference to private email would be if you wanted to go over the little contact (timing, source, method, initiation, unusualness) no more and no less. Really, I have nothing that I can think of otherwise to share with you privately, and I have already indicated that I consider doctrinal discussions with you as fruitless at this time, and I have no problem watching your little attempted mockings and hand-wavings and blusters and shotgun and buckshot accusations and all on the forum. Although I would like to get to a late work session :-) Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 252 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
ART, you would have avoided any difficulties if you had simply been careful in making your original false grammatical points. (About which you have amazingly still not acknowledged the actual correction, despite the careful source referencing offered.) Everything continued inexorably from that point. And you were defacto attacking an HH viewpoint, no complications there. Apparently, on this forum, you have your own bill of particulars as to how you want to appear, and that is the most important issue. Fair enough. While others reading are most concerned simply with the doctrinal discussion, such as where I offer doctrinal counterpoint to foreverhis and others. Many simply do not have your priorities and constructs in the discussion. (btw... all this is similar to the recent earlier contretemps where you would not stand up clearly against the 'I am Christ' 'I am not Christ' mishegas, but instead wasted time and energy trying to finely-parse my supposed motivations, by examining every word to see if it might be attacked as too strongly stated ... something you fail to do with your own writings.) Now your one substantive point above is not complicated. You did not consciously go forth to attack the HH doctrine. Fine. Spoken, and received. No problem on this end, and I never stated that as your conscious goal when you erred in the ye-you discussion. Of course you make your case with your normal tiresome barrage of accusation and confusion and parsing. btw, why not, finally, at least acknowledge that you were simply wrong in your original presentation ? That would be a nice start to getting the conversation back on track. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 253 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Actually your problem is that you say too much. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 254 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
ART While you have a point about the ye/you issue Actually, that is more than I have learned to expect from ART, so I'll take that as his most humble acknowledgment of the error and the correction in the discussion above. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 255 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
And if I am not a "self-serving prevaricator" (by your standards, whatever they may be) does that mean you would go back over your last dozen or two posts and start retracting and correcting your barrage of ad homs ? They are quite long and diverse, a good example of how not to approach a discussion forum. And I have not seen anything approaching a "basic same line of reasoning". Please... you can't even simply acknowledge a straight factual faux pas honestly and clearly without a blizzard of hand-waving. Reasoning is not the issue. Dialog integrity is. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 257 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Oh, wait a minute. In ART's accusing eyes I am either a "self-serving prevaricator" or a "proxy". Simply for speaking clearly and forthrightly. They will get you coming, and they will get you going. So actually you can ignore the post above. I do not want, desire or request any correction, retraction or apology from ART for any of the barrage of accusations, nothing that is not truly reflective of a heart and attitude change. There is One who is the judge of all. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| yeoman New member Username: yeoman Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 64.246.5.174 |
Dear Brethren, Could I propose a radical new concept? It's found in Philippians 2:3, "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." And vss. 14&15 "Do all things without murmuring and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" We really do need each other, on the level that is appropriate for this forum. It pains my heart to hear you two go at it so. Love in Him, Yeoman | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 261 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
ART, what a mishegas. You need a lot of help. First, even your fallback grammatical position is simply wrong. Did you even read the reference materials ? The Greek is unambiguous on the plural/singular distinction, and that is reflected in 'ye' and 'you' both being plural of number every time they are used in the King James Bible (only unlikely exception .. finding a 'royal you', however I doubt there are any with 'you' or 'ye' in the NT). So, if you have an example otherwise, or 'many' examples as you claim, where you is not simply plural, simply please state the verses. Simple enough. If no verses are available, you are shown to be blustering in your own scholastic deception, and it would be the right time to simply say you erred, without all the 'variations'. And your various statement/judging attempts simply falls to the ground as more accusatory arrogance. And you bring in Mrs. Alvear to this thread simply as a political move, to divert from your false accusations and factual errors. Again, I offered to share with you privately specifically the nature and form of the actual HH doctrinal contact (which you appear above to be claiming never occurred, but who can tell through the verbiage). Why you spout your unknown conclusions gotten from we-don't-know-where in a public forum, rather than simply ask me directly what I offered to give to you, is your problem. HH has every right to be concerned that their doctrinal views are not misrepresented, even if they properly forego getting into the muck and mire and drain and junque of this or any other forum. Personally, I highly respect that they view sound Bible doctrine as something very precious and significant. So, apparently, with deliberately limited knowledge, not having asked for the info, you can claim whatever, spin and weave, harumphing away. Now, if you had handled this question with integrity, you would clearly known (and affirm here) that HH read my (very limited one line) exegesis on John 14 and concurred that it was apropos/relevant, post-facto as mentioned, and that the reference stands against any plural/singular grammatical attack. Which is all I ever claimed or implied. Very simple. And please note ... very critical ... you, ART, were the one who made the very false statements on this forum about my being a representative or proxy, not I, so now you at the sad point that you are defacto accusing yourself of falsely misrepresenting my relationship to HH! However, the stranger the vitriol, the bolder and larger the fonts. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 262 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Yeoman, thanks for the scriptures and thoughts. Most excellent. (And I think you had a good post that I meant to share about, and/or we were gonna discuss some stuff in back channel.) Anyway, I do engage in such a discussion lightly, or flippantly, and I appreciate very much your heart shared. Nuff for now. Grace and peace in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 263 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Small note .. substitute 'some' for 'many' two posts above. "So, if you have an example otherwise, or 'some' examples as you claim..." Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 160 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.60 |
Whew, talk about hijacking a thread. We have two HH supporters tearing each other to pieces. Both, having written here for a year or so, (by only their own views of themselves,) as experts in dividing the Word of God, wish us the readers to accept their opinions concerning the proper interpretation and use of scripture, but can not agree that the other one knows what he is talking about. In the past weeks they question not only our motives and integrity, but each others. They both have agreed with us that the other one has made unfair and disrespectful attacks on other posters’ characters. In this past ten days or so, they have claimed hypocrisy or holier than thou and smarter than thou attitudes of pride in each other. Each had those of us here agree with them concerning it. And neither one of them can see it in themselves. As they have assassinated each others character they have destroyed any respect I might of had for either of them. I was hoping this could have been a nice respectful debate, but these two have proved that disagreeing on opinions is not enough, they must accuse others of poor character and evil intentions. The old, “if you can’t over come the message, shoot the messenger.” It is one thing to shoot down an opinion it is another to shoot down the person. Then to do so while trying to defend a church or its doctrines and practices as non abusive is irony at its best. I think it is past time for a new forum with a moderator. | ||
| happyishe Junior Member Username: happyishe Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 70.250.153.6 |
amen, down with the windbags. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 589 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.18.160 |
I think we need to really really pray and not only pray but fast for now my husband that is such a quite and gentle man is very upset. He is a man of few words and seldom upset but by him posting shows a part of him that is crying out for he has posted on forums maybe 3 or 4 times in his whole life...He sends his Spanish friends e mails but for him to put something here he is very upset. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 161 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.135 |
Sister Alvear, I feel it is a godly man who will rise up to defend one of his family, (just as God has defended His children in ages past and does so today.) I had wondered why he had not come to your rescue before. I understand now, that language is a barrier. I for one think his emotions are righteous in this case. I seem to remember the Bible saying be angry and sin not. (Please tell me if I am wrong.) I will pray that his concern and any anger will be used to do God's will only and that the enemy will not take advantage of him. The fact that he is a gentle man and not prone to angry outburst, only confirms to me that something different than a lack of self-control is taking place. I am praying and will continue to pray for him. God bless your family. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 265 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, foreverhis, I will remind you that I came onto this forum quite adverse to all the harsh accusations of 'liar' and such that came forth, and they were coming forth as blustering denunciations of the anti-HH contingent, mostly by the same fella that is the tussle here. If you like, check my early posts, although they may be in that back-hidden area. And my views on that haven't changed one iota. Tis very tacky forum undecorum. Personally, I would actually rather the barrage of insults from ART to me than to new posters and others. Best of all would be if he grew up, and learned how to post without the buzz, noise and fuzz (to put it bluntly). And I will not simply forego integrity issues in posting, whether I 'lose your respect' or not. And to think it is an attempt to hijack is simply off, as I have tried to dialog with you and others on this and other threads on doctrinal matters consistently and respectfully. If one thread gets too much noise, one can simply start another. All my posts stand for themselves. Now, I plan to be returning to the grammatical issues especially. They are quite fascinating. One of the reasons I have found net forums helpful is that even in the midst of harsh adversity you can do very fruitful studies that increase your understanding and appreciation of the word of God. This has occurred time and again, and often I have had to modify my views on Biblical matters in response to challenges, some friendly, some harsh. Even on the "confesseth Jesus come in the flesh" verses, I learned a lot about the various exegesis, tense and such by dealing with mythicists and skeptics, as well as believers. Now, none of this means an accusatory tone is itself helpful (I am much more used to it from skeptics and anti-mish and ultra-confused-quasi-orthodox Trins who try to blugeon the oneness view as 'spiritual terrorist' or whatever). And if you set up a moderated forum and deep-six this one, I think that would be an excellent move. Any essentially unmoderated forum is subject to a form of Gresham's Law, with the harshest denouncers, most frequent posters, largest fonts, and least grasp of Biblical consistency, able to drive out some of those with something real to share. (As we recently saw.) Ironically, as I have mentioned, I actually hoped there would be a social forum revolving around ex-HH'ers that would be friendly and not doctrinally hostile, and not motivated by an anti-HH agenda. One where folks would simply share about their lives and search and feelings and beliefs and such. (With respectful doctrinal discussions on-limits.) Some moderation would be necessary to make such a forum work. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 268 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Art, your last post is beating a very tired horse. I already agreed with you above that you did not deliberately, consciously attempt to come against the HH exegetical view, it came out more from other facets of your personality, combined with the mistaken grammatical ideas and your confusions about the KJB English. See the thread above. Read more carefully. And your tiresome accusastions of dishonor, disrespect etc. are becoming very strained and out of place. They come from your general place of hostility, not from any of my actual words. You simply enjoy being an accuser. There is something dark at work. The bishopdad couple shared their heart, I appreciated the points they made, you went into ART-land and drove them off-forum with blustering arrogance, end of matter for now. As for Mrs. Alvear, I write directly to her, person to person, using this forum, and I believe she understands that quite well. My posts are clear, and she actually moved to a new position about HH in a strong post or two that was deeper, and which I greatly appreciated and felt was a truly excellent move. Each day is a new day. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 884 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.237.48.140 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll An excerpt: A troll, trolling another troll, often creates massive amounts of pretend drama between them that are taken seriously by non-troll observers (especially if they take sides). The end result is that the two trolls can work together to force a conversation to go off topic, or center a forum's discussion around themselves, more effectively than on their own. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 270 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
And as I already indicated, C_S, that is a type of nonsense. Anybody who reads the forum knows I probably do more on-topic doctrinally-responsive posts than anybody. Perhaps to a fault. You ask me a question, I try to give an on-topic focused response. (and often, after I go through the efforts of a real discussion, the original poster just drops the topic) ... And I don't filter my topics as to whether they seem to touch HH doctrine one way or another. They are simply done straight-ahead, what does the word of God say, how is it interpreted (and what is the English grammar). And there is plenty of room for sincere disagreement both on exegesis and application. (e.g. one could be sympathetic with the 'confessing Jesus come in the flesh' teaching and not believe that it is manifest in strong or dynamic way, or even any way at all, through HH). Notice that this is what happened above. I really gave some doctrinal counterpoint to foreverhis on the issue of the thread. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21420.html?1149780906#POST298604 And then.. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21420.html?1149780906#POST298622 The fact that ART creates a bunch of bluster based on his grammatical misinformation has nothing to do with trolling (not even by ART), but it is a weakness of unmoderated forums, combined with a low level of doctrinal analysis and/or insight and/or concern and/or accuracy by many. And I recommended some ways that could be addressed, in venues outside Factnet. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 888 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.237.48.140 |
 Sometimes a little humor is needed to cut the tension. Glad I could help.  | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 590 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.14.80 |
Matt 24:4-6 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. NIV Matt 24:23-25 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. NIV Mark 13:20-23 21 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect-if that were possible. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. NIV | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 163 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Prax, I do intend to get back with you on the topic, maybe tonight, at least as soon as I can. Being a mother of 8 and the personal and business secretary for my husband always comes before long posts. : ) I type soooo slow. Thank you, FH | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 164 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.186 |
FH/me Jesus said He must go away so the Spirit would come and guide us in all things. Yet these men say Jesus is still here in the flesh ... Prax: Greetings Robin, if this is a concern for you from an exegetical standpoint, there is lots we could discuss, include eschatology, and of course the John epistle verses My point was only that Jesus said: Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And : I go to the Father, and you will see me no more ... I was just taking Jesus at His word. He also said: 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. And: 1 John 2 26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you; 27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him. Prax: However, in light of the simple construct you attempt above (Holy Spirit here, Jesus Christ not here) please share your exegesis of the following verses ... Philippians 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Well… It says the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. I agree with that, lol. Prax: However, in light of the simple construct you attempt above (Holy Spirit here, Jesus Christ not here) No, that is not what I mean. I said Jesus “in the flesh” went so the Spirit could come. He said : I go to the Father, and you will see me no more …} | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 165 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.186 |
Prax: Simply put, do you make a distinction between the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ ? Are they separate spirits ? That was not my point. One spirit or two, it doesn’t change what He said. Prax: And if the Spirit of Jesus Christ is manifest today, does He not manifest through the believers, the true church of Jesus Christ ? Give me your definition of “manifest” please. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 166 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.186 |
I must remind the reader that I am not a Bible scholar, so I will not claim to be one. I just take things in context and in view of scripture as a whole. I am offering my view point as what it is, my view. I ask no one to accept it as theirs. I have a simple child like faith. I know Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior. He has made Himself known to me. I have the Joy of my salvation and the gift of the Holy Spirit. No one can take that away from me. I may be wrong in my understanding of some scripture, but my relationship with Jesus stands firm. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 168 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.186 |
Dear Prax, The point of consistency is one I agree with. The New Testament leaves no room for Popes holding the office of Christ, (man standing as Christ, between God and man,) no mater what we would call them or what denomination we claim to find them in. There is only one Lord and Christ and He stands at the right hand of the father ever making intersession for us. There is a lot of scripture to back this up. Do we agree? | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 169 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.10 |
Prax says: foreverhis, I will remind you that I came onto this forum quite adverse to all the harsh accusations of 'liar' and such that came forth, and they were coming forth as blustering denunciations of the anti-HH contingent, mostly by the same fella that is the tussle here. If you like, check my early posts, although they may be in that back-hidden area. And my views on that haven't changed one iota. Tis very tacky forum undecorum. Me: Prax, Yes that is how you were. But in my opinion, you have changed. Just so you know, I was greatly offended by this: Prax says: And I will share again, to frame the HH position as "I am Christ" "I am not Christ" is only an attempt to misrepresent the position ... that Jesus Christ is manifest Art was right on this one. You might as well have said Liar! Liar! I forgive you; I just wanted to point it out in love. I don't want to go on a big tangent with you. I will let you have the last word on this, and move on. God bless you. FH | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 272 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Robin, something like that, the way it was (and is above) approached, can be a type of nit-picking gnat-straining forum tangent. (Not so much the mention, but the way it is handled.) .. Folks follow such a lead, one person following another, as we have seen here before. If you said to me simply .. "the word 'only' is a wide swath .. " I would simply say 'amen ... agreed.. let's pull it out, my overstatement, apologies' and we would go on with the conversation. However, the main point was very clear, that I strongly believe it is a severe representation to put forth words like that as if folks (elders, leaders, anyone) in HH say "I am Christ", which seemed to be the very strong implication. I'll go a step further .. I believe the paragraph and 'quotes' were deliberately, if not consciously, framed to give that false impression. It may have been heart-sincere from your perspective, the intention may have been service, it may have had many motivations, but it really was unfair and maligning HH by a severe misrepresenation of their views and life and reality on a very fundamental point of walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. Or consider the similar early threads that implied (or stated) that HH have a form of 'leader-worship as God' (I hesitate to even write about that thread, it was so off and weird). What an abomination was that thread, and most here simply let it go by. Even those most hostile to HH, if they were approaching with integrity, should have offered reproof and correction (the thoughts were from Phillip, as I recall, but haven't checked). And as I remember, correct me if wrong, you let it go by. Break-time, probably for a day, maybe two. I saw your stuff above, will try to get back shortly, and if you have a little comment on this I will read carefully, and reply if appropriate. And please don't 'forgive' me on something like that, where I do not ask for forgiveness. Nobody writes perfectly. Simply offer the correction, ("the word 'only' is an overstatement") and I will give you an amen and a smile. Tis too easy to divert from the real issue there. And a poster can even make diversion into a craft and type of art-form. None of us need to play bluster games or go out of our way to show our humility. I appreciate the way you approach the forum, and the attitude of most of your posts, even if we disagree on a lot, and you can simply speak square and straight. Shalom, Praxaluh, with a RQ of __ (?) RQ = 'respect quotient' (Message edited by praxaluh on June 09, 2006) | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 273 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, The one remaining loose end on the plural/singular question, of real scholarly interest, was the Acts verse. A friend, not involved in any of the doctrinal issues above, and a good student of these types of issues, shared as follows ... Acts 24:22 And when Felix heard these things, having more perfect knowledge of that way, he deferred them, and said, When Lysias the chief captain shall come down, I will know the uttermost of your matter. Will K, "Felix is addressing all those assembled before him. Just look at the first verses of the chapter, say 2 through 9 and especially verse 9. All the Jews are still there present before Felix. Then Paul speaks, and then Felix addresses them all, not just Paul. It has nothing to do with the plural of majesty." The King James Bible is very consistent and reliable in its plural and singular usages. And please note also that the singular form in the verse would be 'thine', not 'ye'. 'Ye' and 'You' are the same in terms of being plural. Shalom, Steven Avery (Message edited by praxaluh on June 09, 2006) | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 594 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.81.185 |
Matthew 24 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. (vv. 23-25) Mark 13 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. (v. 21-23 | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 595 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.81.185 |
Matt. 24 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (vv. 26-28) | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 176 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.4 |
The link to the source of the first two post on this thread is: http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~remoore/jonestown/AboutJonestown/PrimarySources/letter-orig.htm The writer was Jim Jones. He didn't claim to BE Christ, only a manifestation of His complete authority and the ability to know His will/mind for the people. Am I comparing HH to the Peoples Temple? NO! I am not! I am only comparing this ONE false and dangerous doctrine. Do the abuses in HH compared to the all the abuses in PT? No, not even close. Except, in my opinion, these: They have taken the place of the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the members. They cause members to doubt in their own ability, their own anointing by God, to hear the truth from God directly, to be lead by God directly, and to interpret His Word for them directly by the Holy Spirit in their own lives. They say we can only have confidence in our hearing God through hearing them. If we refuse to listen to them, we are refusing to listen to God. Then they control the exposure to opposing views, as if a Child of God can not seek God directly to know which view is the truth. They emphasize the "Christ in themselves" and minimize the regeneration of our hearts, and power and leading of "Christ in you." | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 604 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.164 |
The abuses in Jim Jones were not fatal until he would not listen and decided he had the ONLY way to be saved and went far out... Most of these cults become wandering stars because of teaching people, brainwashing people they have a new light, the only revelation, some manna for coming days and the leader or leaders are Jesus' direct words... These custs as a whole regulate what the people read, watch, hear where they go, keep them busy, give the perscuted feeling so the ppor people blindly follow these leaders even unto death. HH is oneness do there people go freely to oneness churches are worship on the same level as oneness people? NO. DO the JW go to churches that believe like they do one the godhead? NO I have been accused of saying HH is JW. I have never said that. I have said their shunning is like the JW, their doctrines of more light ever shinning is what the JW"S teach. I have said them frowning on other people's books and writings are like the JW doctrine....their thinking whatever heardusrters says they BLINDLY obey is like the JW doctrine. Roxie said in her letter she let Brother Blair seek the Lord for her. When and where does the Bible tell us to do crazy things like that? I have enough common sense to know that is wrong and that is why they don't like me. At first I was polite and said little but when I had to become verble and express I did not agree that what they were telling me was of God I became counted as their enemy and rebellous and a lover of power. The funniest thing the letter said I wanted power (authority). I am in a position that if I wanted authority I could be whatever for our people love me. I have chosen to at my own will to have no power or authority. I hold no office, own no property, have nothing but a cell phone in my name and a car in the states. My name is on no churches deeds or anything. And YES foreverhis, you are right that is one among the many dangerous doctrines of HH. Because I chose not to "KILL THE BABY" I am not another person and have Jesus in my life like I did before my meeting up with them. If I do something wrong I am big enough to ask forgiveness such as on this board I did because even though what I wrote was true my spirit was wrong. Today my spirit is right I feel nothing but love for them in my heart and I pray everyday for God to bring the sincere people OUT of their or send a repentance to the leadership and let other men and women of God show them where they are wrong to control people. I have nothing against them as a people but the more I learned of their controlling doctrine the more I backed away. I have confidence in the Jesus I serve and do not have to depend on a group of men to go against everything He told me to do and do their will. I choose the will of God and the voice of God that spoke to my tender heart at the young age of 8 that I would be a missionary. For 40 years I have followed Him and I do not plan to change Him for a group of elders that are ever changing veiws. I may be simple, not know big words, have little formal education but I do know when I fleeced God about HH He answered the fleece that I should get away from there and that I did. The very people they sent the letter to are a part of the people that begged me not to have anything to do with HH. The letter proved to my friends what a hole I was fixing to fall in. I am deeply thankful that Christ is in my heart and His sheep hear HIS voice and follow. His voice has a true ring to it...I cannot debate all their ideas first because they are ever changing and second because it would take all my time looking in a dictionary. I guess my husband would let me borrow his dictionary as I don't even have an English dictionary just a Portuguese one! LOL... | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 605 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.164 |
I feel no hate, no evil feelings, I just feel sorry for HH and all those involved... | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 283 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Mrs. Alvear, in a sense it is good that parts of the letter were posted here. We can see how you have been missing the heart of what was shared, and changing words and phrases around to try to politicize. One simple example.. you look on it as being an accusation that you "want to pastor the world". However you omit fully the context, your consuming crusade, where it has become your labor of misfortune (as you seemed to begin to realize a week or so ago, that much was wrong with this crusade, that it was hurtful to yourself as well as to others) to try to warn the world against their sincere and dedicated Christian fellowship with a vision. In that sense, clearly given, you have gone over to trying to pastor the world, by being the loud and daily and abrasive voice against the fellowship community that you deeply appreciated and respected for a good season. The context is 100% clear when the letter is actually read is a listening ear. The letter was very deep, the parts we saw here, and deserves a careful read, rather than trying to juggle spiritual politics. btw, for U_G, on reread, it became more clear that this was a personal letter. Perhaps you should reread those sections as well. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 607 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.36.188 |
Deep? Maybe my husband will let me put it all here. MR Prax deep was the service I was in yesterday. A deep flowing of God's spirit a service open to all where sinners could ffind God and rest for their weary souls. A service where 10 people were baptized. A servive where a devil worshippers was set free. A service where a dying man was brought and today his sister walked in my house tears streaming down her cheeks telling me the doctor said this morning that things had changed. A service where people fell to their knees and wept as the presence of God came over the congergation. A service where an atheist came and felt the presence of the Lord for the very first time in his life. A service where a lawyer wept before God like a baby. I as of today will warn the world that there is a difference in community. I agree with community if people want to have one. I do not see it as a salvation issue. I live in community. I do not see in HH a sincere dedicated fellowship but I see a group of overbearing men that have people to sign death covenants. I have not tried to pastor the world and would not even like to pastor a church. I will continue to lift up my voice against what I feel is wrong. You are their spokesmen...but to them you are nothing in reality. I know how they think about people that are not of their fold. I just now 10 minutes ago recieved a call from the states from dear Sister George that was mentioned in the letter. She told me Sister Alvear I told you they were a cult. These are my sincere feelings and trying to pressure me by writing a letter to my friends and punish me for writing here has only caused my friends to not turn against this site but have ask that I continue to write here. I read the letter at least a dozen times it is full of false doctrine and worship of man and mans systems. I am very sorry to have to start writing here once again but I will come to the cause of Christ. Everyone has a right to an opinion and my opinion is HH is not a Biblical place to be until God changes things there. These things are my simple honest opinion. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 287 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Mrs. Alvear, you yourself, even before the letter, had been convicted that your intense and ongoing public opposition campaign was questionable. You wrote with contrition on this forum. However it is easier to go the spiritual politics route at this time. I understand, and it is an error. One correction. "You are their spokesmen..." Nope, I am simply an individual who is aware of the trap of turning to hostility and opposition. And felt the burden to share that with you. To speak to an HH spokeman, simply contact them, seek real communication, and I am sure there will be fine heart-to-heart discussion and sharing. "but to them you are nothing in reality." Wrong again. Even separate from all this, in issues and sharing having nothing to do with your campaign, or that of others, there is respect and friendship and sharing. In fact, to look back, this has always been the case, even during years of mostly quietness. And yes, the letter can be deep, and a service can be deep. One does not preclude the others. It is wonderful when God moves amongst any people .. His Spirit is merciful and loving and reaches out using many willing vessels. His anointing will stay upon folks, even while they grapple and struggle. Look at the Trinitarians. Shalom, Praxluh | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 609 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.54.124 |
I was concerned that my spirit was wrong but since they have begun their open campaign against me I will have to defend myself and my beliefs. I know error when I see error and the letter was full of error but I will refrain for a couple days (?) as I am talking with brethern and I will see what they feel best. I have no ill will, not hard feelings, but I will defend truth but in the way my superiors feel to be best. We are all praying together that TRUTH will be discovered and when truth is discovered many will be shocked. I just now recieved another call from the states shocked that they would say the things they are saying...They meant it for evil God is using it for good. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 178 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
They meant it for evil God is using it for good. Dear Sister, I do not believe HH "meant evil." They may have meant to quiet you, and to defend themselves by "shooting the messenger." Which was a wrong, but I don't think they "meant evil." I am willing to guess they feel what they did was right. They are sincere, just sincerely wrong. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think we should see them as our enemy. I doubt that you do either. Our common enemy is sure to have meant evil. Yet, I feel mercy concerning the people, because I was a part of them. I don't think they would do it if they actually thought it was evil. They are trying to defend themselves and their beliefs. The personal attack in the letter is back firing. May be if enough of these oneness brothers, (who are not ex-members,) felt to write them and gently address the false doctrines found in the letter, (and we all earnestly pray,) even more good could come out of it. We have been praying for another avenue to reach them, maybe this is the answer to that prayer. God Bless You, Forever His | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 610 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.73.8 |
I have had several contact me about this...let's pray... When I said they meant it for evil...that is what I meant, they tried to shoot the messenger...but it has only stirred up friends to investigate HH doctrine. Thanks for helping me express myself. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 611 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.106.199 |
So then everyone of us shall give account of himself to God Romans 14:12 | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1599 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.111 |
forever his wrote: Both groups were taught to trust the interpretation of scripture give by their “tangible Jesus in the flesh." Both groups of people were reminded of their own carnal nature and that would get in the way of interpreting scripture and knowing God's will directly through the Holy Spirit. Neither Group was reminded that the "Jesus in their flesh" still could also fall prey to the carnal nature and lead them all down a wrong path. Both claimed they only answered directly to God. “The Order of Perfection”. From HH authors “ To briefly reiterate, apostle means , as shown, one who is “sent forth”. The apostle of Jesus Christ is one who is sent forth directly by the Spirit of Jesus and is directly responsible to the Spirit. No intermediate ministry stands between him and the Head. He is the first ( 1 Cor. 12:28) in God’s unfolding chain of revelation to the church. His is the initiating ministry. His primary duty is to preach the revelation of God by which the Body structures and builds itself, to bring the living word – not that he has “built upon” but that he has founded, initiated – to God’s people as a whole ( 2 Tim. 4:2; Rom. 10:14; 1 Cor. 1:17; 9:16; Mark 3:14 ) As the initiating ministry within the Body, the apostle is the chief means whereby the Spirit directly initiates building activity within the Body of Christ. Everything , the Bible tells us, must be done in decency and in order (1 Cor. 14:40, KJV ), and the order through which the Spirit initiates new revelation, sows the founding seed of his overall pattern for the churches, is through the apostolic ministry.” For more of “The Order of Perfection”. see http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=232518#POST232518 Both claimed obedience to the words their tangible Jesus in the Flesh as necessary in order to know God and that refusal to accept it as God's own word was the spirit of the anti-Christ. Both told followers not to listen to people who would not listed to the tangible Jesus because they were anti-Christ, protecting their members from views opposing their own.. Janice alvear asks... PRAX, do you agree that BA and HW are our tangible Jesus in the flesh? | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 800 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Thanks. The section quoting HH is a good read. A change of pace from the lies and blasphemies of the oppositionals. Appreciated. (Although in general it is good to read in full, an article or book. Context and background can be missed.) Shalom, Praxluh |
