| Author | Message | ||
     1faithassemblykid New member Username: 1faithassemblykid Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.33.253.231 |
I accidentally posted this in another thread, but it belongs in a new one here. How are most of the 'Faith Assembly kids' doing these days, I wonder? My guess is that most are either in jail or have a drug problem or both. Some quick background on me, then I will return to this subject. My backtround story in a nutshell. My parents were recruited in '74, and I was born in '75 the oldest, making me 30 at this writing. My dad, GW occasionally 'led the worship' when JE was off and very occasionally preached. He also travelled weekly to New Whiteland to lead the worship for JB and occasionally preach. When I was 12ish, we moved to in shortly after JB started Faith Christian Assembly in Acton, IN. Luckily, my dad and JB had a fight about whether or not Paul Cain was a prophet, my dad got booted, and our family slowly normalized without the weekly reinforcement from the church. This happened around 1990-1ish. Now, given the massive homeschooling and lack of any normal social interaction with peers for most of the FAKids, I'd imagine a huge % are 'not doing well.' I was one of the lucky ones, my parents decided to put me in public school after kindergarten. Still, not being allowed to have friends at school over, etc, was still a major social stumbling block for me and definitely stunted my social development. I remember debating in 3rd grade whether or not to turn my parents into the authorities, because then someone else would get custody and I would be allowed to play on the basketball team at school. Instead of a jock, from like 17 or so I was a total stoner, and pretty much was high for 5 straight years. The next 6 years or so, I drank lots of whiskey about 6.5 nights a week or so. The last 2 years, I've been maturing/calming down with that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I don't regret any of the partying I did, but there is a HUGE correlation to it and my FA upbringing. I think that I'm lucky that I came out of all that relatively unscathed legally and career-wise. I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop, but am interested in any other FA kids stories. I'd be interested to hear any other kids' stories. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 122 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.221.73.103 |
Yes the church did bring alot of pain and outcast feelings. Pretty selfish stuff if you ask me, but we move on. Others have done it, so can we. | ||
| cougarxr72 Member Username: cougarxr72 Post Number: 80 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.50.241.85 |
1faithassemblykid, By any chance are your initials JW. Mine are BR. We used to goto school together as kids and hang out a lot playing Baseball and whatever. If you are who I think you are, I hope that you'll respond and maybe we can catch up on old times that we had outside of FA. I'm in agreement with you that FA caused a great deal of problems for the kids. | ||
| cougarxr72 Member Username: cougarxr72 Post Number: 81 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.50.241.85 |
I went through the drinking phase as well from about 18 on. I drank and partied every weekend until the age of 23 when I got married. FA would have scorned me. I married a divorced women with 2 kids. So I didn't drink in front of the kids. I had a similar childhood to yours. My parents joined/were recruited in about 1976. I got saved 2 years later, I sometimes wonder how legitimate it could have been. I have a 2 year old now and she's bright but I don't believe that she could grasp the concept of salvation. We also went to public school. Fortunatly all of us were healthy so we didn't have to deal with any significant health issues other than crooked teeth. In 1986 or so my parents decided to leave the church and at that time, we were prohibited from associating with the friends that we had at FA and weren't for a period of time allowed to have non christian friends either. In 91 I had a little brother that died on pneumonia. My parents still believed up until about 10 years ago when my little sister became very ill and could have died, I remember the day my dad called me at work and asked me to call a doctor friend of mine to set up an appointment to see her. Come to find out she had Juvenile Diabetes and her blood sugar was through the roof. After about a week in the hospital she was released and now is maintaining her blood sugar through insulin and a pump. After that point my parents really began to loosen up on their beliefs. I don't know if it was due to this or due to the damage that they realized had been done to their older kids. I think it was a combination of both. I haven't been to church on a regular basis in 15+ years. I realize that maybe I should, but I just don't want to go back to that environment. My grandfather GS used to preach as well. I wouldn't say I'm nostalgic about FA, I have some good memories of fellowship with friends and family from there, but most of them I haven't seen in years. Bottomline all of us kids had a lot to deal with and much of it we are still dealing with. It is something that is a daily struggle, I have channelled my energies into work. I could be bitter about the whole experience and maybe I should be, but I don't know that bitterness solves anything. Keep your head up. | ||
| 1faithassemblykid New member Username: 1faithassemblykid Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.33.253.231 |
Yo cougar, It took me a minute, but I remember you. Yep, I'm Josh Wilson. Email me at jodwilso@yahoo.com Or, my myspace is www.myspace.com/joshdwilson You may see some old faces on my 'friends' section of myspace. | ||
| the_soulsurfer New member Username: the_soulsurfer Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.236.121.102 |
Hey Josh... This is Rob Woodrum...hopefully you remember me...I was friends with your parents. You surely would remember my kids...though they were younger than you (I can't believe you're 30...aaaaagh)...my oldest (Jessica http://www.myspace.com/wakinguptodie )is closer to Lindsey's age. We're still in Fla...still surfing...still forging a new way to do church (http://www.eastgatefellowship.net) It's good to hear things are smoothing out for you...on behalf of all adults who were stupid enough to inflict all that crap on you kids...I'm so, so sorry. Anyway...contact me if you get a chance... http://www.robwoodrum.com http://www.myspace.com/realsoulsurfing | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 127 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 218.47.83.237 |
nothing new | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 128 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.41.145.165 |
I just wanted to post that I have been reading post over at the tomax site and it seems there are a lot of lost people still looking or clinging to all things FA. I think these people overlook what happened to so many lives, especially younger people because of this crap. Its baffling to me how people can still be searching for that new Hobart Freeman that might be out there to lead them to the lost waters. One dumbazz says the faith message is missing from todays message. Well I wonder why...after all the people died from beliving that at FA, most of us woke up and realized it was wrong. | ||
| barn_kid New member Username: barn_kid Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.36 |
Does it make you feel better to blame your bad choices on church? I was a Glory Barn kid - started attending with my parents at age 3 and continued through the years until I was 18 and left home - and sure, I did some partying after I left home - but I am wear big girl panties and can OWN my screwups. I'm certainly not going to blame my bad behavior on a church that I attended 20 years ago. As for my life - yes, I was a wild thing in the late 80's and early 90's - but alot of perfectly "normal" kids do that between 18 and 25. I'm 38 now and only wish I attended a church that my daughter could enjoy as much as I did Faith Assembly growing up. :shrug: | ||
| barn_kid New member Username: barn_kid Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.36 |
Does it make you feel better to blame your bad choices on church? I was a Glory Barn kid - started attending with my parents at age 3 and continued through the years until I was 18 and left home - and sure, I did some partying after I left home - but I am wear big girl panties and can OWN my screwups. I'm certainly not going to blame my bad behavior on a church that I attended 20 years ago. As for my life - yes, I was a wild thing in the late 80's and early 90's - but alot of perfectly "normal" kids do that between 18 and 25. I'm 38 now and only wish I attended a church that my daughter could enjoy as much as I did Faith Assembly growing up. :shrug: Kristi Anderson (Ormsby) | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.188.47 |
Hey Barn Kid, It is nice to see some refreshing words in here besides the bitter ones the are written by Healed. The only thing I wish I could have done was be a part of FA and not have to listen to the stories of those that were there or to get the teaching from off the tapes. I would have loved to been a part of the worship there. I have a few of the worship tapes and I know that I would have loved to be a part of it. As for a FA reunion...sounds like a good idea. But I wonder how many would be interested? Count Healed out. God bless. I am glad to hear you are doing well. Mark Scaliotti | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.35.69.131 |
"I'm 38 now and only wish I attended a church that my daughter could enjoy as much as I did Faith Assembly growing up. :shrug:" If your daughter got sick and died, would you enjoy that too or would you shrug? I guess you were one of the folks that shrugged when some of the "belivers" died or suffered needlessly due to their lack of faith. Actually, what is sad to the point of tears, is that they had plenty of faith, faith in a promise made by Hobart Freeman. They belived and some are still beliving in that false hope to their death. Yes Mark, please do count me out of the Neo Faith Assembly reunions, those are very terrible memories indeed. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 142 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.188.47 |
Correction Healed. Hobart Freeman did not make the promise of healing. God promised it in His word. Read it in the Bible and quit blaming Hobart because Hobart preached the Word. So either God is a liar and His word is not true or it is. What does the scripture say concerning God's will to heal? Wasn't it provided in the atonement? Yes it was. You just do not understand the teaching. That's ok I understand. Because the Bible says that the natural mind cannot understand the things of the spirit, for they are spiritually discerned. As far as the reunion...you would be unconfortable there because all you would be sharing with the others there are your sour grapes, if you know what I mean. And by the way, there is more than a lack of faith that causes a believer not to receive from God. How about sin in a believer's life or failing to meet the conditions in the promise. There are other reasons why people did not get their healings but it was not Hobart's teaching. It was either because the problem was with the believer or the word is not true and God is a liar. Guess which one I will chose? So stop blaming Hobart for all your misery. I have had enough of it. Get on with life. Let God heal you of the pains, anger and the bad memories of your life and get on with life as best you can. You will never forgive Hobart because you do not have the love of God in you. That's the first step. And I know you hate me because I still am "nostaligic to all things FA". LOL. That proves further that you do not have the love of God in you. I know the memories are hard to get rid of. Everyone does every now and then. But life goes on. I have had bad memories, especially in the way my family ill treated me over a year ago. But I have the love of God in my heart for them, even though they hurt me dearly. Love does not consider a wrong suffered. Think about it healed...and perhaps God will give you understanding. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 136 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.221.78.107 |
}Correction Healed. Hobart Freeman did not make the promise of healing. God promised it in His word. Read it in the Bible and quit blaming Hobart because Hobart preached the Word. So either God is a liar and His word is not true or it is Correction Mark. Perhaps Hobart didnt promise anyone healing, but he did offer a false hope. The bottom line is that Hobart, and a handfew of other cult leaders like him, preached that to trust in the arm of the flesh was to doubt Gods word. This created internal guilt for members who felt they had to follow the "Word" that Hobart preached or be in sin. Its interesting how die harders like you and even the more liberal Neo Freemanites twist things around to fit your beliefs. It would seem that you dont understand the bible unless its spoon fed to you by Freeman. We continue; There are other reasons why people did not get their healings but it was not Hobart's teaching. It was either because the problem was with the believer or the word is not true and God is a liar. Spoken like a true die harder. Scary stuff there Mark and very cold. So, according to you, Brother Freeman must of had a problem, for wasnt he the truest of the true belivers? You know the word had to be true because the "word" was coming from him! Which one do you choose now? So all those folks who died and those who are suffering to this day who follow Freemans teachings had or have a problem with their faith? Do you know how that sounds? Its sounds rather self righteous there brother Mark! Oh, but I think thats what got FA off on the wrong track to begin with. So stop blaming Hobart for all your misery. I have had enough of it. Get on with life. Let God heal you of the pains My name here is Healed for a reason. Because I am Healed, I know have the liberty, the confidonce and the responsibility of pointing out the lunancy of Freemans teachings. As I get on with my life, I uncover and discover more things about this movement, even though I know people close to me who still suffer in it. So God is healing me brother Mark, thank you for your concern. The first step, as you said, has already been completed brother Mark. The first step was to rid myself and all the FA baggage. Now as I grow older, I have moved on to the other steps of closure and release. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.221.78.107 |
For Brother Mark; Something else I would like to add; I always noticed at the meetings I had to attend that in the back of the room, there were always books or pamphlets by Freeman, but nobody else. Why? Was it because he was the only one that preached the "Word"? Ive been going back and reading some of his works like the Faith by Healing book that was the foundation for so much of the nonsense that came out of FA. As I read the book, I can feel its being crafted by Freeman in order to support his ridiculous beliefs. Sure he quotes scriptures, but he then goes and crafts his own interpretation of the passage, like he is the authority or something. Am I supposed to let go of my own instinctual suspicions and just grasp on to every word just because Freeman typed it? I think not. That must be the difference between you and me. Just because Freeman said it doesnt mean its truth, and it doesnt mean its Gods word. Why cant you understand that? | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.188.47 |
I won't bothering wasting my time with you any further. I was trying to soften my tone with you but your heart is very hard. I refuse to read anything from you unless you are willing to talk to me like a human. I know what I am talking about when I wrote to you before. But you will not listen...even if Jesus talked to you personally. I would rather argue with fivefoldheretic than with you. At least the conversations were interesting. I will continue to receive the promises of God and be blessed by the teachings of the word. You can do whatever you want to do. Until you get rid of the hatred and bitterness towards Freeman, me and other "die harders", you will never really be healed. Oh well...I tried to reason with you. I see that you are a hard nut to crack. But you know...all nuts will crack. It just depends on how much pressure you put on them. BTW...Don't bother writing anymore to me. Don't waste the bandwidth. I refuse to read anymore garbage and waste my time with someone like you Mark | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 138 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 219.101.196.2 |
Well of course your not going to write "Yes, Healed! I agree with you!" or "Healed, you got me stumped here!" Instead you write it in code...like I wont bother wasting my time with you or blah blah. Its ok, I understand. I have to be direct with your kind or else youll start with the I need to get Jesus in my heart or God will give me understanding only if I open my eyes..to your way of thinking of course. And I must add, I just find it selfish Mark, this remark you made: BTW...Don't bother writing anymore to me. "Don't waste the bandwidth. I refuse to read anymore garbage and waste my time with someone like you" What do you think me and others have been doing all these years...wasting our time trying to get thru to you? But when we lay it down for you...oh no, no compromise coming from your side. Thats not the way the world works brother Mark. It cant be all your way. | ||
| odysseus New member Username: odysseus Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.91.242 |
Healed, I believe you truly are... healed God bless you | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 139 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 218.230.252.237 |
Thank you and God bless you too | ||
| barn_kid New member Username: barn_kid Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.25 |
Let's be clear about something - I do not live the "Faith Assembly" way. I take my daughter to the doctor and go myself when I need to. That being said, I've been incredibly disappointed with the churches I've attended in the years since Faith Assembly and to be frank, most of the time I feel like going is a complete waste of time and wonder "Why do I bother getting showered and dressed to go to this service?" That really was not the point of my post though. My complaint is with people who ••••• and moan and WHINE for decades and blame all the bad things they've done SINCE LEAVING Faith Assembly on Faith Assembly. It's everyone's perogative to decide that the doctrine of FA was "misguided" or off base if they want to......and their perogative to go forward and live their lives in the present as they see fit........MY COMPLAINT is with the endless number of ex- Faith Assembly people who blame all their mistakes on the church. Grow up already. For the most part, it was grown adults who went there and if you think it was wrong now, then GET OVER IT. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you go sit and listen. Dr. Freeman never came to anyone's house and checked in to see whether you took tylenol. If you were a kid that grew up there - like I did then you also don't have any excuse (although I think we have MORE of an excuse than the adults since we were kids at the time) because at this point, no matter how many years you were there - you've spent MORE years in the "outside world" than you could have in the church. I started going there when I was 4. I left at 18. NOW it's been 20 years and so is it fair to act like some big freaking baby and whine about how Faith Assembly ruined my life (it did not). It's like the people who blame their childhood for all their problems. You don't have control over your childhood - but you have control with what you do with your life after you leave home. You can continue to live a screwed up life and keep blaming other people for your choices, or you can wake up and say, HEY, I can blame someone for the first 18 years of my life, sure, maybe your parents were nuts. However, you can't keep that up forever. Your parents weren't tipping back the bottle of Jack Daniels into your gullet. That was you. It's time to OWN your life and make changes to it if you're unhappy with where you're at now. Faith Assembly has been dead for 20 years. Have to come up with a new excuse. Hey, blame your wife - your boss - your constipation. again :shrug:  | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 140 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.34.159.181 |
barn_kid, I dont know who your post is directed at, but due to the tone of it, Ill assume its towards me. Id like to point out a few things you wrote: "MY COMPLAINT is with the endless number of ex- Faith Assembly people who blame all their mistakes on the church". I, for one, am not blaming any of the "mistakes" I have made since I left my childhood home, on FA. I do blame some of the handicaps I came into adult life on FA or Freemans teachings, as well as the many hurdles I had to overcome. The achievments, however, I have made are perhaps due to my upbringing, that is I had to challenge myself more in order to survive. Alot of this was completely unnessecary, but it was something I had to go through to "come up to speed" in order to cope with the world. "Grow up already. For the most part, it was grown adults who went there and if you think it was wrong now, then GET OVER IT. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you go sit and listen. Dr. Freeman never came to anyone's house and checked in to see whether you took tylenol". Well I wasnt an adult, but yes, I was forced to attend, and forced to adhere to Freemans teachings, every last one of them. Your right, Freeman didnt come check my house to see if we had any Asprin. He didnt have to, we were all brainwashed into thinking if we took the asprin then our salvation was in jeoporady and if I as a kid could stomach the guilt of taking the asprin, but was latter caught by an adult, I would suffer from "spare not the rod" doctrine of FA and be beat senseless for taking that asprin. "Faith Assembly has been dead for 20 years. Have to come up with a new excuse. Hey, blame your wife - your boss - your constipation". Faith Assembly is dead? Then why do I still have a relative in it to this day that is hanging on to every last word that Freeman taught? The grip is unbreakable. Just because some of the elite of FA moved on, there were others that created groups that preach the same message. Perhaps you had a happy go lucky childhood experience with FA, and shrugged when folks were dying and suffering needlessly. I still know people in it, and it aint nothing to shrug about. | ||
| odysseus New member Username: odysseus Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.79.232 |
I’m another that does not need an excuse to blame anything on Freeman or FA. My life worked out very well in spite of FA. I’ll even say that I’m quite successful. But I still get a kick out of reading all these Freeman apologists longing for the ‘good old days’. You know it’s funny. Not too many of you have any pity towards people like Healed. Then again he doesn’t need it to survive anyway, nor do I. | ||
| barn_kid New member Username: barn_kid Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.73 |
Healed, You apparently were too upset to read the last half of my comments in my last post. It addresses the kids who grew up at F.A. - I can speak to this since I spent my life at that church.........sat through ever lonnnnnnnnnnnnng message of Jerry Ervin thinking I was going to starve to death before he'd ever stop talking, sat and enjoyed Bruce Kinsey and will never forget the message Dr. Freeman taught on oral sex........OH my. You know how we took notes in his sermons.......and I remember not knowing what to do.....if I took notes too studiously, people would think I was a freak and yet if you weren't taking notes, you were probably listening too intently - and that was embarrassing. I remember all the stress and strain and humiliation of being a Glory Barner, then known as one of the freaks who went to the TENT to church downtown in Warsaw........then as "one of those people" who went to Faith Assembly. I was one of those kids who couldnt' be in sports, couldn't be even in a spelling bee. Had to go out of holiday parties and had an art teacher who gave me SUCH CRAP for not making witches and Santa Claus........I think I might look that old bat up....... Still, you know, I think it was good for me. Yes, it sure sucked - but there was good that I learned and while I have issues that will probably haunt me forever to some extent, I honestly think it made me alot stronger than my husband. My husband grew up popular. I mean "captain of the football team" and "chant his name in the hallways" popular. On top of that, he was smart. Ok, so a football player who is so smart he never has to study. He goes on to law school and gets a kickbutt job and seems intimidating to people........ but inside, well, the man actually really cares what people think - and can be devastated by crap that rolls off my back like nothing. Hey, we went through HELL with those FA days - and I know I can stand up to anything. That's worth alot. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 141 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 219.164.23.226 |
I dont hold anything personally against people who attended FA, especially the kids. For many, it was just a fleeting moment in their life, for others, it was more damaging. There seemed to be two types of individuals who attended FA. Those who were drawn to this new message that Freeman and others were teaching, and those who were drawn to a message that provided a false hope. Those who were drawn to the new kind of teaching didnt seem to have as much difficulty transitioning to other churches, even if they taught an entirely different message from what Freeman taught. I think it was because they thought of themselves as elite, perhaps were part of that inner circle of ministers, all approved by Freeman. They probally never really obeyed everything that came out of Freemans mouth anyway. Ive never heard or seen of any minister from FA apologize for anything they had taught in the pulpit. The other individuals who so desparately hung on to every word of the Faith Message, were the ones who suffered the most. What were they supposed to do after the leadership at FA left them in a void? They had relationships that seemed irrepairable, grave illnesses and other very challenging issues to deal with. The message that Freeman taught provided hope for those issues. Thats why its so hard for these people, like my relative, to let go, even to this day. The "word" that Freeman taught was the only truth. I think that barn_kid and some of the others here are from the first group, that is the folks who made a clean break from it. Barn_kid states that "hey, we went through HELL with those FA days.." Well yeah it was difficult, but actually the hell I went through in my early adult years was worse because I was sheltered from the ways of the world and when I left home, I was lost and unprepared. You say you went through hell, but in your other post you seem nostalgic about your FA upbringing, speaking about canning and all the fellowship you had. Im not here to disrespect or disqualify that, I just think there are two different sides here, and your not seeing the other one, your only seeing it from your view. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 198 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Thanks for a post with logical thinking, 'healed'. I think that's a first, isn't it? Ive never heard or seen of any minister from FA apologize for anything they had taught in the pulpit. Could it be that it is because they simply taught what is in the Bible?....I know that I've said this at least a dozen times, but, that is what you have a problem with, ......you need a human scapegoat to blame it on, since you can neither armwrestle God about it, nor do you have the courage to question Him about it. A+ for a very nice rational and humanistic philosophy, F- for Biblical theology and spirituality. | ||
| odysseus New member Username: odysseus Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.91.46 |
Hombre said; “Could it be that it is because they simply taught what is in the Bible?”.... Answer; No! If you believe what was taught by Freeman was in the Bible then why aren’t you following it Hombre? You said; “you need a human scapegoat to blame it on, since you can neither armwrestle God about it, nor do you have the courage to question Him about it.” Healed doesn’t need a scapegoat. After reading his posts I’m under the distinct impression that he’s the most mentally balanced of anyone on this board. However your miserable life seems to require a leader or guru to guide you. Therefore you have to gravitate to believe that Freeman was it. Hey look over there, I think I saw Elvis. I think I’ll give you an A+ for being an •••. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 142 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.108.114.139 |
Amen Odysseus. You know my statement about I had never heard of any minister from FA apologizing for what they had taught at FA was directed towards the coldness I have felt from neo Freemanites and the die harders. I think Homebread missed that somewhere in there, or maybe he/she is in full agreement with them not having to have any human feelings for others when they die. I think if those deaths and misery would of happened on my watch, Id of backed down, no matter how good my intentions were. Im not trying to make anyone feel guilty, Im sure many out there are still dealing with it all. Theres nothing to feel guilty about really, Freeman is the one who God judged anyway by taking him from this world. Its just that you never see anyone come here and apologize. Homebread and Mark probally will tell us that those who died or suffered had it coming because of their doubt in Gods word. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 199 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
A few Biblical references: Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. ~ James 5: 14-16 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. ~ Mark 16: 17-18 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. ~ John 14:12-14. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. ~ Isaiah 53: 3-5 Not MY words NOR Hobart Freemans. You lose. I win. Like I said, you have trouble with Gods' Word, not me and/or Hobart. You can make all the logical arguments you want, but that is not going to change what is written in the worlds' most popular and reproduced book. It is like trying to convince the readers that Sam Clemens never wrote The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. | ||
| odysseus New member Username: odysseus Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.74.54 |
Hombre, You said; “You lose.I win.” Really now, I lose? You really amuse me. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 200 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Stick to the subject, moron. Quit trying to evade the issue. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 143 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 218.47.85.144 |
The bible also said Luke was a physician. The bible has been rewritten many times over and requires a dose of common sense when interpreting it. Im sure the prophets, disciples, scribes etc. expected their readers to have that common sense. Yes, there is a passage about picking up serpents, but if I were to go out and pick up a king cobra, I will die, so how do you explain that? If I were to be bitten by the king cobra and given anitvenom in time, I could possibly survive, otherwise death would appear in minutes, so is it doubt to receive the antivenom? This is the kind of logic that got several dead at FA. I see where you quote both the old and new testament. In the old testament, we saw where God allowed for an eye for an eye, but in the new, it was turn the other cheek (something you dont seem to be very good at, I see where you called odysseus a moron). The words in the bible are not ridgid or set in stone, it is very open to interpretation and there are several books missing. People like you get all caught up in the teachings and the deeper message but you go off the deep end with it and cant reason. So no, your wrong again, Hombread, we arent having trouble with Gods word, its Freemans and other wackos interpretation of it. There are many white supremicist who can quote scripture that blacks and other races, including Jews, are the offspring of the devil or some wack crap, but does that mean its true? Your no different than them, your just a different flavor. (Message edited by healed on November 17, 2006) | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.73.220 |
Take it easy on Hombre, he's 'overcoming'. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 201 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
1. Luke was a physician....that is, until he became a disciple. From thence, he magnifies Jesus as THE Healer. We don't see Jesus reaching into Lukes' bag of potions to heal, now do we? Neither do we see Luke doing it either, or speaking of it, other than to tell us what his occupation was prior to following Jesus. 2. The Bible has NOT been re-written many times over. You are wrong about that. Perhaps you should research it, it has been RE-PRODUCED more than any other book in the entirety of recorded history, with fewer typos than any other manuscript. Part of this was due to the demands placed upon the jewish scribes for accuracy in recording by their own, and partly because we have things like 'the dead sea scrolls' which verify what we have now 1 for 1. The closest runner-up to authenticity with respect to being the closest to the original manuscript, is Homers' Illiad, which is a far distant second. You need to do some real research before you shoot your mouth off. 3. The Bible is NOT open to interpretation. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. ~ 2 Peter 1:20-21 Next, you'll be telling me that there are many ways to God; but before you do, I'll end that now by this: Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. ~ John 14: 5-6 4. Taking up serpents is not something one does to 'prove' something. That is why morons die from doing it. As Jesus said to Satan, upon His temptation to prove He was God, Jesus replied: 'Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.' Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. ~ Matt.4:5-7 However, we also see that when it became imperative for God to provide a miracle, when the leaders tried to shove Jesus off a cliff, Jesus simply walked through their midst, and yet they missed Him somehow. And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. 30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way... ~ Luke 4: 28-30 The same rule applies to handling serpents. Paul provides the direct example. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god. ~ Acts 28: 3-6 ..of course, other conditions apply...things like FAITH and OBEDIENCE, ......which disqualifies both of you. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
5.How can you: A.) look directly at Gods' Word, B.) and deny what it says C.) when Jesus says it is so simple, that even a child can grasp it? And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. ~ Mark 10:13-15 I must then conclude that you either don't want to understand, or that you do not have the intelligence of a child. Someone who would fall under that category might be termed a 'moron', or an 'idiot', or just 'mentally incompetent'. Since I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I also then must conclude that you and Odysseus fall into the later category. You take your own pick of what you would like to be called. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. ~ John 14: 12-17 He that has ears to hear, let him hear. (Message edited by Hombre on November 17, 2006) | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.73.220 |
I guess I’m not ‘intelligent’ like you. You have an interesting style of ‘overcoming’? | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.73.220 |
Since you’ve described me as a ‘Moron’, I guess my opinion to your nonsense doesn’t matter does it? Naw, guess not. It’s sad to see that your brand of ‘Overcomers Christianity’ has to resort to such hateful tirades in order to further your cause, or better said your ‘delusion’. I guess, “By their fruits, you shall know them” applies here doesn’t it Hombre? ….Hello, anyone home? (You know I have a Freudian opinion on why you call yourself Hombre but I’ll pass on it for now) I suppose I could use this time to get some ‘digs’ in against you, but that wouldn’t be right would it? You can call me a moron or childish or stupid and justify it with any scripture you wish. The important thing is you did us all a favor and demonstrated what was really in your soul. You know what? We really aren’t astonished. Overcomer? Get real, you cant even control your temper. Thanks for proving a point. You probably set some people free reading your screeds. Cheers, Odysseus (Message edited by odysseus on November 17, 2006) | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 144 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.35.74.235 |
This is good, getting all this documented here for others to see, now they can see how frustrating it is for us who have been trying to reach these people. After you finally get the FA die harders and Neo Freemanites cornered, they get to the point and you can see the luancy of their thinking. I noticed that you quoted doctrine and scripture, but when I asked you about the King Cobra, you were unable to respond. I saw and heard many testimonies from people during testimony time about how they had been bitten by snakes and spiders. What was always interesting though, is that none of them shook the serpent off and walked away, they always had some sort of "trial" to endure because of it, some near death. I tell you what Homebread, you go and pick up a king cobra, and let him inject his venom into your blood and you shake off the serpent and walk away and I witness it. You then go and walk away with no symptoms. Ill sell everything I own and follow whatever it is your beliving. You see Homy, your not talking to some naive person here, I already been down the road your preaching, and I never saw one miracle, but I did see lots of deaths, suffering and hardship. I still see it. So actually your defeating your own purpose when you preach this confused mess. Your kind baits people with some message of hope, they belive it because their desparate, go to hell and back trying to make it work, then come out of it wondering just what to belive. You do more harm than good, thats why there is support groups for cults, folks come out confused and a mess. Your proud to be a part of that? You feel some kind of superiority when you quote your doctrines and scripture to us when that same message was responsible for deaths and destruction of lives? You mentioned Jesus and his message was so simple that even a child could grasp it. But not once in the gospels do I remeber reading about anyone dying on Jesus watch. Not one child, but I do remeber several on Freemans watch. What was wrong Homy, did those children, even newborns have no faith? Jesus healed people who werent even belivers. Your right, homy, Jesus message was simple, but leave it to people like you to go and pervert it. (Message edited by healed on November 17, 2006) | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 145 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.35.74.235 |
Id like to add onem more thing. Ive witnessed this time and time again with people like homy. They get so educated and wrapped up in their studies that they start to think they are Jesus in the temples throwing out the Pharasis and Jews. There is no compromise coming from their side. I know that they are only following in the footsteps of Freeman since this is how he was, but you would think after all these years they would wake up and think for themselves. You said the bible is NOT open to interpretation. It isnt? Then why are there so many views, denominations, beliefs, sects, Catholic vs. Protestant, etc.? Oh I get it, how could I be so dumb homy? Freemans interpretation is the true message, and since thats the one you belive, Id best get with the program. (Message edited by healed on November 17, 2006) | ||
| barn_kid New member Username: barn_kid Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.55 |
} Dear Healed, It is accurate to state that I was nostalgic about my time at FA, because I do have those feelings. It was a sense of "community" that I have not really felt since leaving. Perhaps it was merely a matter of people bonding due to adversity - and to some extent, as things progressively became more difficult for Glory Barners and then at the Tent and finally at FA we did bond as a group..........and that indeed WAS hell to feel like a freak....... however, the community feeling itself -- the friendships, the fact that you saw these people 4 times a week and spent so many hours together canning together as families, eating together, kids playing together, and having lifestyles that were so similar to each other - and yet so different in some ways to the world around us......well, that comraderie was awesome. It's late, but do you understand what I'm saying? The friendships formed were great - and I loved the learning that we did - and the song services with Jerry Ervin up there - hey, it was awesome to hear the hundreds of us all singing songs we really loved. Watching Carl Seitz get up and sing with Carolyn and Jim Brenneman getting up to teach a song and the "He's Alive" songs that Ron Mudd used to sing. It was beautiful stuff and I loved it there. Dealing with the outside world was hell.....all the mocking and the way I was treated while I wasn't at church - that was hell. I was stabbed with pencils, called a Glory Barner, baby killer, etc. That was rough..........but I'm not going to let something a bit traumatic that happened for a good portion of the first 20 years of my life go on to mess up the NEXT 20 years of my life. It's been 20 years now. Sure, you say you were unprepared for the world when you left home. Hey, Healed, I was too. I left home at 18 and didn't have a driver's license because my eyes were too bad. I was literally legally blind - albeit correctible......and I couldn't see at all. If you leave home, it's pretty important to have a drivers license - but I also left home without a car and with only 4 of my 5 senses so to speak. I had alot of catching up to do.......and now, 20 years later, I could cling pain of those hard times and blame some of the poor decisions I made after leaving home with regard to men or whatever else............OR I could realize what kind of a person I am now because of that experience........ | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 146 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.47.129.242 |
Yeah I understand you, and Im not judging you. Actually having that bonding was good. For me, however, it seemed that bonding was forced. Also, I was somewhat talented and always wanted to excel, but this was taken from me, it was suppressed. Actually, those who had many friendships and bonds within FA probally did well. Im not here to judge those people, its the message that brought much destruction to my family life, but it was supposed to bring hope. I had to, and still do, discern what is right about Christanity and what is wrong, and Im sometimes left with no answers. But I am stronger than ever before, and the thing that can annoy you most is someone trying to "help" you when they in fact are lost themselves. I now belive the bible was not written to be taken word for word and hunker down and live in a fantasy land where firey darts and trials are to be overcomed just by having faith. The FA experience was different for each person, so its understandable that some have fond memories of it. Im not here to disrespect that, even it seems that way, Im here to point out the error in the message and beliefs of those who still preach it. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 203 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
...what you mean by that, is that you are against what the Bible says, right? Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. ~ Ephesians 6: 16 By the way, you spelled 'believe' and 'fiery' wrong. ..... just thought you might like to know. | ||
| barn_kid New member Username: barn_kid Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.18 |
Well, Healed, I still think that the Bible is to be taken literally.......every word of it. There are some things that I can't seem to live up to and some things that I don't even try to do.......but the fact is that it still says and means what it says, whether I live it or not. Admittedly, I don't.....but I'm not going to try to rationalize what it says just because I am not willing to go along with it. You know what I mean? I am sorry that I - and others - have come down on you at times. Your posts are kind of all over the place in your reactions......sometimes I get the feeling you're really sweet - and sometimes you come across as attacking. I "get" that though - I think it's normal to have mixed feelings about experiences like FA. Still, I think it's really important for all of us to be able to move forward in our lives and in our "walk" with God and not obsess about the past - not look on everything that went on like it was all cherries and not point to it and act like it was something we can point to as the blame for our whole life's failings. It was the best of times......it was the worst of times............and yet it was 20 years ago.........and we are more than the sum total of our experiences at Faith Assembly. We go on and if we are wise, we take the good and leave behind the bad and push forward in our lives. When I was about 30 I went to visit my aunt who was married (unhappily) and used to point back to her past and lament her life. She complained about how she moved alot as a child, how her family didn't have any money and how she wished she could have been more popular. I sat there and watched her in her pain and how she went on and on about the early days of her life and was amazed to sit and watch a woman who was past 40 years old whining about how she hadn't been popular in grade school and high school. I saw how she tormented herself by not letting go of something so ridiculous. Sure, it sucks to not be important in high school. But how many of the jocks turn out to be divorced and working at a crappy job and driving a broken down beater truck? I think life has a way of evening things out - and I resolved at that moment as I sat on the couch next to her that I was not going to waste the next 13 years of my life (to when I'd be at her age) complaining about the crap I'd been through. It just wasn't that important and I wasn't going to let it beat me up like it STILL was her. She looked ridiculous to me......and I didn't want to be her. She still is in that funk............and yet I'm terribly grateful for that day......because she really changed my life...... Faith Assembly was quite an experience.......but I'm over it. I remember the bad and relish the good that I am able to look back on and see. Hugs to you Healed. - a barn kid | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 147 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.108.102.113 |
Well thanks for your kind reply, but I think the reason you are unable to feel out my postings is because you dont understand where I and others like me are coming from. I dont spill all the details here because, wolves come in sheeps clothing, even "Christians" always there to tear your beliefs or thoughts apart, leaving you feeling battled. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy fighting them at times, at others it gets old. Like I said before there was a crowd who belonged to a close knit group then there were others who attended sattelite churches. I am completely over my FA experience, actually I "rebelled" as a teen and left it. I still have relatives in it and its extremely frustrating trying to deal with it. Its hard to get any kind of closure when your still battling with those in it who you know will die with their beliefs. As for Hombre, thanks for the spell check. Really I dont sweat spell checks anymore because there is always somebody like you there to do it for me. Thanks again Hombre, you are good for something. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 204 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Huh. I would guess that its' kinda hard to be over something when you're not. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 148 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 222.150.207.88 |
Reread and try to comprehend brother in Christ Hombre, I said I still have relatives in it, thats why I have to battle with it. Now, Im sure you would love nothing more than to reel me in and bait me with "see I told you needed saved! now lets get into the word and let me show you where it says this or that" then you proceed to twist it and then I start to belive that I can see without my glasses etc. or this tooth with a cavity will heal up and there is no need to get attention for it. No thanks brother hombre, been there done that, smelled the stench of the teeth rotting before. I guess you could say my faith was shakened brother Hombre, shook up by the teachings of Freeman. You dont seem content that Im content so you continue to look for cracks to try and infiltrate, like your own a crusade. I like your little saying you have over at overcomers online, 'Perverting the doctrines of the local assembly through the Word of God, one moment, one thought, one person at a time'Seems perverting the gospel is what got Hobart kicked out of the seminary and then he continued to do it and it got folks killed. Perhaps you should back off on your little crusade and reexamine as to why you feel you need to correct everyone. You need to get your own house in order brother hombre before you go trying to clean up somebody elses. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 205 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
...I see that you're still curious enough about the Word of God, to continue reading my postings wherever you can find them. ...I guess your 'armour' isn't quite as impermeable as you would like others to think that it is. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 149 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 219.164.23.42 |
Actually it seems to be the other way around. Every time I post, you love to read it and then post your crap. I never addressed you in any of my replies unless you address me first. Yes, I do read time to time what is posted over at overcomeers online or the Tomax site. There hasnt been any post on this site for some time. If you feel threatned by my words or feel I have thick armour, well thats your problem. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 206 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
That's not a very nice thing to say, Healed. I thought that I was quoting the Bible. Here's another one that you probably won't like: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That EVERY IDLE WORD that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. ~ Matt. 12:35-37 Those of us who have read your posting, know that you do not consider yourself to be a 'Christian'.
and again:
and again:
So then, you have made it clear to all, including God, what it is that you believe and don't believe. May I quote another few Bible verses? The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. ~ Luke 12: 16-21 Now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. ~ 2 Cor. 6:2 I don't know how long you, I, or anyone else has left on this earth, but I do know this: it is neither ours to decide. I would highly recommend receiving Jesus as The Christ, into your heart. If Faith Assembly and Hobart are stumbling blocks to you, then simply read the Bible for yourself, and give your heart over to Jesus...not because of what I'm saying, not because of what F.A and others have represented to you in your life, or what anyone who have called themselves 'Christians' have offended you about. Just do it for yourself. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 150 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.34.156.1 |
Well thanks for the advice Hombre but do not worry yourself, I am able to discern and decide what the bible means for me. Perhaps the bottom line is that teachings and messages and other man made doctrines and ridiculous legalistic nonsense got in the way of the clear thinking that is required when reading the bible. For awhile I couldnt read it or listen to anyone talking about it without confusion or frustration. You see, when the young adults such as yourself read the bible and listened to the tapes, you found a message that brought you joy and hope. When your forced, as a kid, to interpret, discern all the rules and that wacko Freeman taught, the joy of discovery it for yourself somehow gets distorted, probally because your not really old enough to grasp it. Then when all you see is misery around you, that is directly or indirectly to be contributed to those beliefs, well it only creates more distance and doubt about a message that is supposed to be about hope. So, yes, I go back and read the scripture from time to time. I dont dwell on it, but do understand it. If you dwell on it, then this behavior can lead down the bewildering road that so many ended up at from FA. It has taken time, and distance with experiences to actually heal. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 144 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.240.82 |
You know...I just started listening to the tapes of Brother Freeman. It has been a while since I listened to them. But boy, what a breath of fresh air from the dribble and sour grapes of "Brother" Unhealed's commentary. It is good to get back into the word of God that brings freedom. And thank God that it is by God's anointed servant, Hobart E. Freeman. Anyone who thinks that he wasn't anointed is deceived and deluded. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 207 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Hey bro!...Where U bin? | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 151 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.35.73.18 |
"And thank God that it is by God's anointed servant, Hobart E. Freeman. Anyone who thinks that he wasn't anointed is deceived and deluded". But of course, the one and only, Hobart Freeman all others should be avoided like the plague because they arent anointed by God. Well Im not here to stop you from letting your health deteriorate or from buying a house on credit or getting glasses or dental work or letting your relatives die. You do what you gotta do brother Mark. Ill just stay deceived and deluded while you get enlightened and annointed by the word according to Freeman. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.219.118 |
What did Hobart preach that was not anointed? He preached the word and the anointing is on the word. If you do not believe that the anointing is on the word of God, then yes, you are deceived. I enjoy my freedom that I have in Christ. Why? Because Freeman taught it? No. Because Jesus set me free. I think I discovered your problem. Your problem is like other people who hate Freeman...you can't live the Word that Freeman taught. You can't live by the standards that Jesus said. And that's what Freeman taught. You, as well as the other people who left FA could not live the message because it was too strong for babies to handle. | ||
| duncan Intermediate Member Username: duncan Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
Mark, Based upon all my previous posts, you know how I believe. However, I thought I would answer your question before Healed starts in. Also, the last thing I want to do is give him ammunition, but I have to tell it like it is. You had asked what Freeman preached that was not anointed. The first thing that popped into my mind was that he told people that their children should not be sent to college. I believe that his statement was totally from his own mind and had no anointing whatsoever. It was OK for him to go to college, because he was able to "discern" things. However, he didn't trust the rest of us to do the same. Fortunately, my parents didn't follow that advice with me, and I was able to learn something that could support my family. Unfortunately, my brother wasn't so lucky. He went to a two-year trade school to learn about computers. Now he is in his late forties and is having a hard time finding a job, because everyone at that age has a college degree. Just my thoughts. Duncan | ||
| active_angel New member Username: active_angel Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.190.67.184 |
Mark, I'm sry I'm new here so forgive me... Are you still affiliated with FA? I don't entirely agree with your last comment. We've been out of FA for awhile now and I'm relieved to find that when my time comes to meet my "maker" that I will not be burning in hell for wearing a pair of jeans or because my hair is above the length alloted. My ears may be pierced but God will not throw his judgement down upon me for my "worldliness"! That these aren't the things that seperate us. Freeman was a man. Simply that! Prone to his own mistakes and temptations. We should put NO MAN on a pedestal such as he was! And to compare him to christ!...No one is comparable to christ or his teachings. With christs teaching you could find no fault. With Brother Hobart, he was a man with his own vision. But he was just a man! | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 208 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
I would like to hear that tape/s again, Duncan. I went to college, and beyond to grad school. I encouraged my children to do the same. Of the five children I have, 3 went, 2 didn't want to. All 3 who did, earned their own way through. Of the remaining 2, one is working his way through trade school, and wants to continue beyond that into a specialty area. The last one is content being a mother and homemaker. I would again say, that I did not allow Faith Assembly, Hobart Freeman, or anyone else to make rules for me or my family, I chose what I chose to do, of my own free will. I would also suggest that, IMO, Hobart was offering up a conciliatory note for those who he perceived could not afford to do it. This is what I remember him saying to the best of my recollection, and I can almost hear him saying it: '...you don't need to go to college' ....as in: there are other ways to make a living besides 'white collar' work. I also think that that particular idea got twisted and distorted in to another legalistic formula, which along with other things, like Nikes, homemade bread and blue jean jumpers, became an accepted theological accouterment by those who found it easier to follow rules than to think for themselves. If I was able to discern for myself, and make choices for myself, .... then what does that say about those who didn't? I don't say this to hurt your feelings, Duncan...I say this because that is what appears to be factual, and besides, you were just a kid then. Yes, I was involved with an outreach assembly in Indianapolis, which I attended twice a week, and Steve Hills' Indianapolis meeting once a week; I was also on Hobarts' automatics, Steves' automatics, and Bruce Kinseys' automatics. I studied intensely. We had peer pressure from the little jews and catholics among us, just like FA 'North' had. If I was able to discern for myself, and make choices for myself, .... then what does that say about those who didn't? I don't buy the whole 'Hobart made me do it' excuse....besides, the day that you give up on the idea of improving yourself, might as well be the day that you simply hang it up, and commit to six feet of dirt. I would like to quote a Mexican immigrant I spoke to about 2 years ago. He was telling me about his father, who is in his mid sixties. ' My father has six degrees. He has earned them all here at IUPUI, since he came here to the States. He says that you are never too old to learn'. It is way too easy to sit back, complain and blame others, when there are all too many in the world who recognize the vast opportunity that is present within this great country of ours. Perhaps we have it so good that we don't recognize it. If your brother is behind where he thinks he should be, then there is no time like the present to catch up. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 210 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&goto=375&S=336a7e5fd688ecad8707802e43d7636b#msg_375 | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.81.90 |
Hombre, What a shame. Multiple degrees and still no common sense. Your answer to your question is ‘nothing’. That is nothing that wasn’t orthodoxy. Go back to ‘Overcomersonline’ and overcome something. You sure as h*ll can’t do it here. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.99.212.88 |
Yes, quite the shame. Hombre likes to impress us with his knowledge he aquired through his worldly education but all the while having one foot in all things FA. A degree dont mean squat. If Duncans brother is out of work, its because he dont want to work. All kinds of occupations are out there that dont require a degree. Sorry, you can do better than that Duncan. Anyways, didnt most of the FA following work in construction? Active Angel, dont worry. Mark and his comrades over at overcomer online are also in sin, one of them is wearing glasses in his pic and hombre admits to several worldly sins in his post. Mark appears to be wearing *gasp* a sports cap with a team logo on it. These are Neo Freemanites, not the real deal, not the hardliners Im used to. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 211 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
I guess you guys need more manpower on your hate and criticism team. You forgot to read Angels post, however. I shall quote a portion of it for you now:
Nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact it would harm your inner man. ...but there are those who seem to thrive on bile and gall. Interesting, that those who do, have nothing constructive to help others with......just more bitterness. Congratulations, Angel, on having made the leap to maturity and understanding. May God richly bless you and your family. | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.75.109 |
Hombre, (Why does that name make me think of a person who questions his manliness?) Why don’t you go away and trot back to ‘overcomersonline.com’? No one here really cares what you think is normal or of orthodoxy. It’s kind of weird that a person who is divorced and got excoriated from a former Faith Assembly satellite church is so much the proponent of all things Freeman. You’re just a small sheep in search of a shepherd to lead you. You must have problems with male identification, which explains your affection for your screen name, ‘Hombre’. You’re trying to compensate for your weakness by giving yourself a screen name that doesn’t represent what you truly are. You can respond to this in your typical excessive fashion. Please don’t let us down. You were able to get me banned from Overcomersonline.com. But not here. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 213 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Tsk, tsk. More insults.
This one, however, is true. The shepherds name is Jesus. I am not banning you from OvercomersOnline.com, I am simply going to exercize my ability to eliminate postings that are personally insulting and not of a constructive nature, which yours have continued to be. BTW: 'Hombre' is a generic Spanish term for 'man'. It carries no connotations of machismo. | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.75.109 |
Your Shepherd is a dead man named Freeman, not Jesus. By the way I know what ‘Hombre’ means. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 214 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
...are you off your medication again? | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.75.109 |
No, are you? | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 146 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.219.118 |
Hi Duncan, Glad to hear from you. I agree that we should not give Healed any ammunition, just like Fivefoldfalseprophet. I wanted to quote a comment and ask a question: You said: "You had asked what Freeman preached that was not anointed. The first thing that popped into my mind was that he told people that their children should not be sent to college. I believe that his statement was totally from his own mind and had no anointing whatsoever. It was OK for him to go to college, because he was able to "discern" things. However, he didn't trust the rest of us to do the same. First off, Bro. Freeman went to college because it opened doors for him to write books etc. That is what I heard on the tapes. I am not sure where or in what context that he mentioned about not sending kids to college. Do you recall what tape he said that on so that I can hear it for myself? Or at least do you remember what series he may have said that in. I am curious in knowing in what context was he saying that. Thanks for your help. And it is good to talk to someone with some sanity in this forum for a change, even though you and others may not agree with me. That is your priviledge and I won't quarrel with you or anyone about my statements. God bless Mark | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 147 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.219.118 |
Hi Hombre, Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. You were wondering where I have been. I have tried to stay away from the insults from Healed by not coming here. I have been over to the overcomers forum recently but I haven't posted in a while. I've just been busy with things and hope to participate again soon. I will see you there soon. Take care Mark | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 153 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.46.155.17 |
"It was OK for him to go to college, because he was able to "discern" things" "However, he didn't trust the rest of us to do the same". Wow you really are a Freemanite. If a man tells you that you shouldnt attend college but he can and did, you follow that? He was able to "discern" things but your not so your not elligible to attend a university? Sounds like a dictator to me or someone who wants to control others. Are you the kind of person that is easy to control? Thats the impression Im getting here brother mark. But what about brother Hombre? He attended college. Is he the exception? Am I in rebelion to Gods word for asking? | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 150 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.219.118 |
A quote from my friend Hombre: Ho-hum. Different day, Same 'ol stale rhetorical regurgitations. Todays score: F--. | ||
| duncan Intermediate Member Username: duncan Post Number: 159 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
Good morning all. I have been traveling on business, so I am just now getting a chance to post. I think I have now read everything since I last posted. First of all, I am going to type very slowly so Healed can understand me. It's obvious by his last couple of posts, that I typed too fast for him. Only Healed could take a sarcastic statement I made about Freeman going to college and make me a "Freemanite" out of it. I even put the word "discern" in quotes to denote the sarcasm. My original point still stands, that I do not believe his comment was anointed in the least. Mark and Hombre, The statement Freeman made was early in the series on Biblical Theology. I was listening to it on MP3 not too long ago. (I love to listen to and learn about theology. Since I was too young to understand as a child, I was listening as an adult. As far as theology goes, I can find nothing in which I disagree.) Anyway, during one of the sermons (I can't recall the exact one), Freeman made the following quote (I listened to it several times, so this is close to an exact quote): "Parents, the surest way to lose your children is to send them to college. I know what I am talking about because I was there and know what they teach." Like I said before(when Healed couldn't understand), Freeman's above quote basically stated that he was able handle it, but no one else could. Finally, Angel, I know it's not polite to ask a woman her age, but I'm going to ask anyway. I was just wondering if we may have had any friends in common. Have a great day. Keep up the quality discussions and lose the junk. Duncan | ||
| active_angel New member Username: active_angel Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.190.67.184 |
Duncan, I'm in my latter 20's. Not thirty yet. Sometimes I feel like it though. I don't want to say to much. Now I would just hate to give myself away!!lol But if you have any questions I'd be glad to answer them. Privately at this time of course. My private email is frth_angel@excite.com Feel free to mail me! Now back to the other subject at hand...I know that what you said about Freeman's quote is pretty close to the real deal. That's all I will say on that, at this time. I see here that there is a lot of confusion between what is godly and what isn't. I believe Freeman started off with good intentions. But we all know how that goes. What starts out as good intentions does not always end in good and happy feelings. I for one agree with the ones that have said what happened is not all well and good. There are many lost and hurting souls out there now- because of it. And because God allowed me to come out of it less scathed than others I choose to help the others that are still hurting if possible. And there are still many out there that have a right to be angry if they so choose. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 215 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
...Duncan wrote that, Mark quoted it. ...go back and read.
...that renders the rest of this dialogue irrelevant....besides, my post already dealt with the whole college issue. I knew quite a number of people there with college educations, including doctorate degrees. You see, it really makes no difference what you learn in this world, for a trade...that is only how you make money...the important thing, and what Jesus will require of us, is what kind of people we were. To that 'degree', education then is irrelevant. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 216 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
You may be right about those being the exact words. In fact you may be right about HEFs intentions. I would say that, however, 1. ) ...we all still had the freedom to choose what we would do for ourselves anyway...didn't we? 2. ) ...I can't argue with HEF about the FACT that MANY, MANY colleges teach every form of liberalism and Humanism under the sun, which almost NEVER agrees with Biblical theology and the Christian walk....and that IF a child is not well-grounded in the Word of God, they are likely to fall prey to the wolves in Professors' clothing. 3. ) ...so then, the solution to me would be found in 2 verses: A. ) Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. ~ Prov. 22:6 B.) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. ~ John 17 : 16-17 If we do our part as parents, then we simply rest on the promise and the prayer of God himself. ..and in concluding, I will also say this: I cannot count the times I heard HEF as well as others in the ministry say: 'This is why we labor in the Word, week after week, to teach you to get into it for yourself...don't believe it because we told you, believe it because it is written'. ...you know, 2 Tim. 2: 15 : Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. | ||
| active_angel New member Username: active_angel Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.190.67.184 |
Train up a child in the way that he should go,and when he os old he shall not depart from it. I agree! God was merciful to my parents. No matter the mess - god blessed each one of our footsteps. (My siblings & I) What should have been made evil was turned around for good. That's also in the bible. But I will also say in many of the parents defense.. Many of them were baby christians during the FA & Freeman era. Not too many of them could distinguish what was actually the word of god & and what wasn't. If you remember as a child yourself that the bible could be a little confusing. So in that same text you can understand why a "Baby Christian" would have diffuculty understanding right from wrong. THey knew no other way. I know that mine didn't. And it wasn't until too late that they figured this out. I believe we left a couple of years before the actual FA fallout. If that's what were calling it. The reason why we left... Because it became apparent to my parents that there was definately some abuse and neglect going on. And it took my siblings and I a long to get that across to our parents. Children in those days did not speak out against there elders. Ecspecially church elders. Hombre, Yes, we had Freedom to choose our paths and what we followed.. FOr example you know what you believe in and you beleve there's no other way..right?? Well what if just one time you had to go against what you believe. Would the people around you with that same belief as you ostracize you, for going against thier beliefs. Would you be condemned to hell fire. And if even going before your comrades and asking for there forgiveness you still had you "dirty laundry" aired to the whole church. And you were openely punished in front of everyone. I believe that would make it very hard for you to go against your "beliefs". Yes God may forgive you, but the rest may not. I believe that you had good experiences. And like I said before...I'm happy for you. The bible says God only gives us what we can handle. I guess he must have figured I was strong enough to go through what I did. God Bless | ||
| duncan Intermediate Member Username: duncan Post Number: 160 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
No disagreement from me, Hombre. I agree with your comments. My only point was that I don't believe his comment about college was anointed. It was his own opinion, based upon his own experience. I also knew people who had college degrees while I was there. The only thing was that they already had their degree. I can't think of a single person while I was there that went to college while attending (there may have been, but I never knew of one.) Let me conclude by quoting some scripture: Matt 1:14 states, "Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Eleazar," If we all could remember this, the world would be a better place. Have a great day! Duncan | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 217 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
I believe that Jesus is THE Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that He IS the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe; ...that no man can come to God, but by Him. Beyond that, how God deals with us as individuals, may be very, very different.
Like you said earlier, assuming what others lives are about without knowing, can lead to wrong conclusions. I was ostracized by everyone that had been closer than my own blood family when I left. I lost hundreds of dear friends overnight. ...BUT..... I chose to do what I did, because I believed that I was right and justified in doing so...at the time. Looking back, I may have been able to effect some positive changes in peoples minds, by working through things. Abandonment is not the only answer. I am not always right, I accept that. As far as having your laundry aired before the church, I guess my opinion would have to be, that coming to that conclusion in a leadership position would or should be a carefully thought out proposition, and one that would involve a matter of degrees. Ananias and Sapphira lost their lives when their 'laundry was aired', the guy who was doing his own Mother at Corinth, was called out by Paul, and I assume that the letter was read to the entire church. Those are gross errors however. I do not know what your specific isue was, therefore I can make no assumptions or judgements one way or the other.
I had a great many experiences, some were fantastic, others were less so. I don't feel the need to go into details, however. As I mentioned at Overcomers, I don't know if it is always an accurate statement which assumes that God is responsible for all of ones circumstances. That's fatalism, or Calvinism. We have been given freedom by God to choose our own paths. Some like yourself may have been abused, but I don't blame that on God's providence. I blame that on bad parenting. Perhaps there are some parents that need to apologize to their children. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 218 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Nice post, Duncan. Home schooling wasn't my cup of tea either....but it worked, I guess, for some, and still does for a great many people who have no idea what Faith Assembly was. Some things like that are sound ideas, but not necessarily for everyone....and in some ways, I have to conclude that Hobart may have been right about the inability of some to discern. ....it would seem as though there were a number of people that were not able to do that, and in being thus, became the 'lawgivers' that bred the legalism that we all love to eschew. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 155 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.221.79.116 |
According to the 3 brothers, (or 3 the stooges, my oh my, that brings back memories of Mark and some naughty naughty sites he posted on) here, it would seem that I am to slow or dumb to comprehend what brothers Duncan and Homebread type. No matter how you two clowns try and twist it around, I got it the first time. Freeman did not approve of his flock attending college, for whatever reason, and the fools at FA were in awe of whatever feel out of his mouth and went right along with it. I personally think it was Freemans way of controlling his congregation, just like Jones did with his club in South Africa, I mean I see similiarities between the two. Mind control is mind control, now matter how much you respect your leader. Now that I have been blessed with the gift of discernment, I am able to see clearly the lunancy of Freemans teachings and the stupidity/naivity of the flock that followed. Now this surely wont be music to brothers Duncan, Hombread or Marks ears, but its truth, and the truth has set me free. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 152 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.219.118 |
Hey healed. I have an announcement for you. It is not called the gift of discernment. It is the discerning of spirits and it has nothing to do with what you allude to. Secondly, you could not have this gift (discerning of spirits) because it only belongs to Christians as the Holy Spirit wills to give it. See 1 Cor 12. Anyway...thanks for reminding me of my alledge posting to some "naughty naughty sights." I think you will agree with me on this one...that it was so stupid about what Michael fivefoldprophetess accused me of, no matter what I tried to tell him. Thanks for bringing back the memories. I needed a good laugh. He still probably believes that I posted to a pornographic website as well as supported the war in Iraq. Well...enough said. The truth is known and God knows my heart. And one other thing...the only thing that has happened to you, "brother" Healed, is that the truth did not set you free. At least, maybe your own perversion of the truth. I perceive that you are harboring bitterness and that is understandable for a person who is walking in the flesh. You can believe the lies if you want to. I will walk in the truth and that truth is the word of God, which indeed has set me free. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 156 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 218.47.79.195 |
Gift, spirit, sense, whatever, I am able to discern that the teachings of Freeman enslaved and brought destruction to many lives. It really baffels me as to why some can still be attached to it. I guess its difficult to fill such a huge void. Perhaps others didnt have to experience the hells I had to go through, or they still need the beliefs to provide hope. Once I made it through all the depression, despair etc that came from being around that mess, I know the truth, I know what it means to be set free, to be healed. Its something you cannot take from me because I am a survivor of the most extreme circumstances. You confuse harboring bitterness with someone who has overcomed and pushed their way through the darkness and now is living in the light. Sure, not all days are full of hope, and your kind would surely be their to disqualify and to inject your venom during those difficult times, but I have been vaccinated against it because I know your crap only leads to misery. As I posted before, Im not here to destroy your faith. If you quote scripture that provides hope without distortion, Im all for it. You, however, interject crap like this in your message: "What did Hobart preach that was not anointed? He preached the word and the anointing is on the word. If you do not believe that the anointing is on the word of God, then yes, you are deceived" or "It is good to get back into the word of God that brings freedom. And thank God that it is by God's anointed servant, Hobart E. Freeman. Anyone who thinks that he wasn't anointed is deceived and deluded". So what if I and others dont belive that HEF was Gods annointed servant but instead a misguided selfish dictator that ruled over his congregation from the pulpit? I am deceived and deluded, correct? | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 153 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.190.212 |
Thou saith it. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 221 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. ~ 1 Cor. 10:13 ..I heard a fascinating take on that scripture this last weekend. ....we used to hear 'or trial' added into it; however, this preacher wanted to insist that it was about temptation, purely. That would make a lot more sense, to me, than if we were talking about temptations and trials, since it tells us that God provides a way of escape. For temptation, there are escapes. Like a door. The point being, that many times, in trials, one can be overwhelmed by circumstances to the point that it is impossible for one to overcome....within themselves. That is why we have the need for faith... therefore, the quoting of this scripture as a statement of passive acceptance of what one is/has experienced is not necessarily a suitable explanation for it, or the end of the matter. I take comfort in that idea, for we may all have scars of one sort or another, but the way to healing and deliverance from the impossible is once again, pointing to faith in Jesus the Christ. | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.93.30.173 |
Quote So what if I and others dont belive that HEF was Gods annointed servant but instead a misguided selfish dictator that ruled over his congregation from the pulpit? I agree he had some autocratic tendencies but do you think he knew the effect his teaching was having on the church? In other words do you think he was aware of the slavish obedience we all exhibited toward every word he spoke. That we all stopped thinking for ourselves and just idolized the man? I think for whatever reason he just didn't or couldn't see it. I still embrace the faith message but I see no value in covering up the problems or Freemans problems. I just cannot understand why he couldn't see the effect he was having on all of us. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 218.47.93.166 |
He thought he was right and in line with Gods word just like Mark does. The effect his teaching was having was just the effect he wanted/expected. I dont think its a matter of he couldnt see it, its what he expected because in his eyes he was doing no wrong, he was just. This is the danger in cults. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 154 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.190.212 |
I wish you people would grow up and stop crying about the past. AND GET OVER IT! That was tame compared to what I want to say. The problem is...you blame Hobart for all your failures. Nice job. Mark | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 222 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
I keep asking the same question over and over, but I can't get a commitment from any HEF/FA criticizer to tell us whether the following means what it says or not. ..And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. ~ Mark 16: 17-18 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. ~ Mark 11:23-4 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. ~ John 14 :12 So tell us...what do these things mean? Are these HEFs words?..or Gods' Words? ....and if they do not work as stated above, who is the liar? ...you know, I'm with Paul. If this stuff isn't true, let's just chuck it all, because there are a whole lotta things in there that would be easier to do without. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our LORD, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. ~ Cor. 15 : 24-34 ...nevertheless, as Paul is convinced, so am I, and there will always remain two camps, until the final day: believers and unbelievers. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.47.130.207 |
Well Hombre and Brother Mark, tell me this-what about the people that got hands laid on and died? What about them, they didnt belive? I know they belived, some until death. You say you cant get a fair answer to us "critics", well I cant get a fair answer as to why so many died believing. So your saying you dont seek medical attention at all now? Yeah right. So if you do, your not believing Gods word, now are you? So you point to scripture but when its time to "believe" as you say, its a different route you take. You say that Hobart was only speaking the word. So all the other ministers in the world are not speaking the word? What if their take on those verses are different? I never saw a FA member move a mountain or any healing whatsoever. So Im guessing something was wrong with that church. There are some things that require common sense, like a cavity in a tooth that requires filling or eyesight correction. I dont think its any mans right or calling to tell or suggest to anyone that getting medical attention is wrong or instill guilt for it. You can twist or quote me scripture all day, but for you to take it upon yourself to suggest to others that seeking medical attention is doubt, your playing God. I dont remeber reading in the New Testament about anyone dying when Jesus laid hands on them, but several did at FA. I dont belive those scriptures are to be taken out of context, your reading too much into it. Jesus is not here in the flesh to guide people, and Hobart wasnt Jesus. I dont need Hobart to teach me about the word and then die because of what he belived. Are you getting it yet? (Message edited by healed on December 21, 2006) | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 223 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
...the issue I am raising, that you still did not answer, Healed, is whether or not what is written in ~ The Bible ~ is Gods' word or not. Whether people believe, die or get healed is not the question; in addition, I am not going to speculate about the lives and hearts of anyone but myself, because I simply don't know whether 'they' were believing in Hobart or in Jesus or any number of other questions like whether they were in sin, meeting conditions, etc. In order to understand, you must want to understand...that is where my mindset is at, because I choose to believe that ~The Bible IS Gods' Word. I have written here for over a year now, and expressed many, many possibilities for not receiving. It is up to an individual to know for himself, whether he is in faith about something, or whether he is in water over his head. You, for example would drown in about 1/2 inch; I say this not to demean you, but because you express faith in God for basically nothing, and consistently avoid confronting what the Bible says, instead blaming it all on HEF and FA. I'll ask again: Are these Gods' Words or Hobarts, and what do they mean? ..And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. ~ Mark 16: 17-18 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. ~ Mark 11:23-4 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. ~ John 14 :12 | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.47.132.194 |
Your asking vague and ambiguious questions like are these Gods words or Hobarts, and what do they mean? They are words written in the bible and obvisouly open to interpretation as there are so many views. If someone challenged Hobarts words then they were asked to leave. You can quote the verses all day but when put into practice and it doesnt work, what next? What am I blaming on FA or HEF? The fact that so many lives were destroyed and many lost? Is it wrong for me to question this? The only explanation you provide to these happenings is the same lame quotation of scripture. You wrote "Whether people believe, die or get healed is not the question"; But it is the question because that is the result of error in HEF message, he died because of it and so did many others! If HEF was still alive today and his foot healed, then I might be inclined to side with you, but he died, as did his wife and many others of treatable ailments. These faith healing teachings are bondage, and are parrallel to the other crap that he put out there. Why is it a sin to have a TV in ones home? If I remeber correctly, HEF and some of the other chosen ones had a TV, but the following, including our house, wasnt allowed. The elite could decipher for me what I was going to hear about "current events" as they related to the end times. I find that very disturbing as well as many other issues like HEF having his Doctorate but we drones couldnt even attend undergraduate school. Like Mark said, HEF had the gift of discerment, implying that I didnt. When would I be allowed to view TV or go to college, after I received HEF permission? I can remeber a relative hanging on to every word and rewinding those tapes over and over, trying to catch some new dreaded rule that HEF had come up with. There is more to work there than legalism, thats mind control. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 226 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
My question is neither vague nor ambiguous. I am simply asking you to tell me if they are Gods' Words, or Hobarts. In addition I am asking you to decipher them, and give us your interpretation of them. Personally, I don't see where these verses mean anything else than what they plainly say, but again, I am asking you to tell us what they mean, if they don't mean what they say. Like I said, there are a lot of things in there that people would like to change, and then do so by hiding behind their thin humanistic veil of reasoning with excuses ranging from 'various interpretations', to historical issues with the text. Jesus said that one must receive Him as a little child, and there is no little child with a doctorate.
Well then, that should have made it easy enough for anyone to go if they wanted. What did they fear losing if they didn't agree anyway?
That's what I've been spending the last year trying to help you and others like you begin to understand. The bottom line goes back to my intial question: Are they Gods' Words, or Hobarts? If you conclude that they are Gods' words, then one must examine his/her own life. The issue of Christianity IS NOT ABOUT DIVINE HEALING, it is about the condition of ones' heart. Far better to straighten that issue out first, than to grit ones' teeth, reciting scripture like a drone, whilst eschewing doctors, and then die. And may I say it once more? People shouldn't go into deep water, if they don't know how to swim, or they doubt their ability to do so.
I don't blame you for questioning, Healed. I don't blame you for anything. I am asking you, however, to settle the question for yourself about the Bibles' authenticity. What is wrong with simply saying: ' I believe that Jesus is the Christ, but I don't really understand why some of the issues that arose in FA concluded the way they did ', and then just letting it go, and moving on. There are some things that we may never know. We may find out that Hobart had some sin in his life...like unforgiveness or whatever, that disallowed him from receiving. Who knows? that is why I say that this is all between you and God, nobody else. If you have a problem, then you need to work it out for yourself. Accusing HEF/FA is not going to get you anywhere in your personal walk with the Lord, and your argument about clear Bible scriptures being subject to interpretation is going to continue to fall apart, leaving you with no foundation with which to base your accusations. You either believe, or you chuck the Book. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 227 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
It is not the THE question that Christianity poses. That one gets healed supernaturally or not, is irrelevant to their eternal salvation. Would you mind another scripture? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me IN THAT DAY, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ~ Matt. 7: 21-23 Apparently, ones' 'miracle record' is not what matters to Jesus, for it is clearly NOT going to get them in by itself. ...and another. ....And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, FORBID him not: for he that is not against us is for us. ~ Luke 9: 49-50 Let me paraphrase the words of Jesus, if you will: 'So what?' I don't know, and neither does anyone else, why HEF or anyone else did not receive the healing that he preached. A mans heart is a deep well, and no one knows what goes on there except the man and God. If only ONE person gets healed, that is enough to prove the message of the Bible. I have known of people who were healed, including myself, of things simply because they quit sinning: they forgave somebody, they stopped doing what they knew to be wrong, etc. They got their hearts in line with the Word, and their bodies stopped being sick. That is a commonly understood medical fact as well. Broken Bones and Cancer? I don't know if I can swim that deep yet, but I'm not throwing out the Word because my faith level isn't there yet. I don't know. I know it is possible, but I don't know for myself, and I would certainly never judge anyone else for getting a cast or chemo. This whole argument that you and others pursue...your quest to demonize Freeman, is not providing any answers for any of us. Do you think that Mark, Mulder and myself are complete morons, and that we don't recognize that people have died?....I think that if you stop being so hateful and bitter about the past, you might recognize that there are those of us from FA who are trying to help others cope with, and understand the various issues that we have all suffered, including the alienation of each other. You have grown since the last time we spoke. Last year, you couldn't write without spitting nails in every direction. I am not interested in forcing you into a mindset that embraces what you don't agree with. I am trying to help you, and others, find Biblical answers/resolutions to your questions. (Message edited by hombre on December 22, 2006) | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 228 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
This is where we disagree: You say that FA/HEF put people into bondage. I say that people passively allowed themselves to fall into bondages of their own manufacture. The congregation was told repeatedly by HEF that they needed to study for themselves, and be persuaded not by any man, but by the Word of God. From the first time this was ever said, people either made up their minds to do so, or they didn't bother. If one person...that would be ME...was able to walk away of their own free will, why didn't others? I left because people were making too many rules for themselves that were not essential elements of Christianity, and by doing so, either made their lives incredibly difficult, or even ruined them. How did I know this? Aside of common sense, I need/ed a Biblical answer. Just like the example I gave you above about Jesus' and the miracle workers. 'They work miracles in my Name?' So what. After receiving Christ into ones' heart, this is the Christian life. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. ~ Matt: 22: 35 - 40 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. ~ James 1 : 27 | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 229 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
I have another question. If there were people that as you say, were unable to make up their own minds about the direction that they were taking in their lives, through their own free will, because they were brainwashed, perhaps then they could also not discern good from evil on a tv set or in a secular school? That would make sense. But I am speaking like a fool, as Paul says. Nevertheless, there are other religions that embrace aspects of asceticism besides Christianity. That your parents chose to do what they did, was their business. Now it is your business. Do what you will, it is never too late to get an education. I know of many middle aged people who have done it and improved their lives financially. Get cable TV with a thousand channels. It's up to you how you use it. You're free aren't you? The point of being free from the world, however, is that worldliness does not engender spirituality....and that is/was FA/HEFs position, NOT the twisted legalism that became gospel to those who merely wanted a list to follow that would guarantee them success and favor with God. What I'm saying, Healed, is that not everyone who attended FA, was like the people you knew, and your view of me and others is colored by your personal experience, regardless of its' merit. Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) : for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. ~ Matt. 6 : 31-34 | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.47.134.174 |
Well thanks for all the advice brother Holmes but Ive already heard it read it and dealt with it. See the problem isnt with the innocent reading of scriptures, its what follows, that stick murky world of FA. Now I know you typed forget about Freeman and FA and accept Jesus in your heart, etc etc. Well thanks brother Holmes, I wished it would of been that simple and sincere years ago. How many times do I still hear that, then Im offered the "meat" which is a bunch of miserable crap that comes straight outta FA. You see brother Holmes, you aint reading to me nothing I aint read before from the bible. The problem that I have to deal with is bigger and more complex, that is those folks, probally not much unlike yourself whos only way is the FA way. Sure, they try and camaflague their initial message with sweet words and promising scripture. I can get the sweet words and scripture from any denomination brother Holmes. Thats not this issue. Its the constant battle of trying to fight off someone who is trying to pull you in and thus pull you down into that quagmire of hell that came out of FA. Sure, theyll say they are praying for you or this or that, but their only intention is to get you back into the church, but its not any ole church, its the church that THEY approved of because THEY have the spirit of discernment as your comrade mark sayeth and only their church is deemed worthy of attending. Thanks but no thanks brother Holmes. been there done that. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 230 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
The only way that I know of Healed, is The Bible way...and the method that I use for determining what it has to say on any subject, is through a systematic study of that subject. Divine Healing and Nikes are not salvation issues. Neither is Eschatology, though some would like to make it so. That is what I am saying is the difference between what you are so bitter about, and the reality of the matter. If you let anyone bully you into a belief, whether it's true or not, the natural long term response is bound to be resentment and bitterness, because you didn't make that decision yourself. Especially when traumas occured that you can connect with that system. Ever wonder why God doesn't just step down and just make it easy on all of us, by explaining everything?...perhaps because He values human freedom and their ability to make a choice on their own. Tell me what I have to gain, from debating these issues with you? I'm not a leader of any church wanting to swell a congregation with paying members. I'm not in this to try to appear right in front of the tiny number of people who read this either. I know Healed, that you have been through enough to make you this bitter, but personally, I don't believe that the solution is to throw out the baby with the bathwater; which is what happens when one simply takes the entirety of what happened at FA, and throws all responsibility upon the leadership for it, regardless of the issues and the circumstances behind the issues. You blame HEF/FA. I blame peer pressure ignorance, weak spined individuals who couldn't /wouldn't - think/act/believe for themselves, and the twisting and boiling down of principles into laws...again, by the 'laity'. If I were to go through all of the tapes that HEF ever did, I am sure that I could come up with scores of instances where he encouraged people to study for themselves, and to be connvinced for themselves. I can also come up with times that HEF recommended going to doctors if you didn't have faith for healing. The sharp rebukes to the assembly after Carl Seitz death were enough in themselves to settle the matter. That HEF died from what he died from, was his own choice. So I'm sorry, but I don't really see any issue with FA/HEF and faith healing...that he recommended faith healing over medical healing, there is no doubt, but to say that it was legislated, or that people were brainwashed by HEF is entirely untrue. I would say, however, that people perhaps allowed themselves to become 'brainwashed' by FA ( meaning: by their peers ), as can be so easily evidenced in the hysteria to rid ones' closets of Nikes, etc. Stupid. People were 'trying' to do things based upon what they saw with their understanding, rather than what they really believed in their hearts. Throwing away glasses became more of an act of religious piety, than of faith. There IS a difference, and that is still what some do not see. Peter learned the hard way when he saw Jesus walk on the water and he tried it himself. He saw and believed for that brief moment when everything seemed possible, but when he considered the reality of the situation, his faith floundered and so did he. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 231 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Perhaps, healed, you have never been touched by the power of God, the way that some of us have. I say this not to bully you, or to make anything of myself, because it was not of my doing; however, once one has experienced that power, it is slightly impossible to doubt its' reality. Having had that experience, however, is not enough to answer every question that may ever arise from anyone in this world. It is not enough either, for me to understand everything that I have been through. I still must face the same issues that everyone else faces, either with faith, or with skepticism and doubt. What I choose to believe God for, is my own business, and none of yours... same goes for you and everyone else. Healed; I am only trying to encourage you to simply throw away your bitterness, forget about FA/HEF, and seek the Lord for yourself. | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.86.124 |
How can one person write so much and say nothing? What a fraud....... | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 164 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.35.65.211 |
Thats kind of the feeling Im getting here Hombre, your saying a whole lot but not really saying anything. Your missing the point. Now your saying Im bitter. I dont call it bitterness, but even if its bitterness, its a step ahead of despair and confusion. Basically everything you said is something I can get at any denominational church. So whats your point? Your a day late and a dollar short with all that, if we could rewind the clock and put some people in those churches that werent cults like FA, then perhaps most of this wouldnt of came about now would it? Forget about FA/HEF? Nice try. I still got family in it. | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.86.124 |
Hombre, you used to be so entertaining; however you’re starting to bore us now. What can you overcome Hombre? I mean really, what can you overcome? You claim to be an ‘Overcomer’? You certainly can’t overcome your insulting tone or your spiritual pride. You seem to not be able to overcome that part of your personality that convinces you that you have THE TRUTH. Can you overcome the fact that your wife left you because you’re an egocentric know-it-all? I’ve seen your posts over the past year or so. You’re not only an egocentric know-it-all; you’re a pompous spiritual oppressor that has no empathy for lives that were harmed by FA. There’s no love in your heart for the hurting folks out there. Can you overcome that? I’ve watched your responses to people like this over the past year or so. You’re cold and heartless in your replies to them. God have mercy on you. | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.86.124 |
Continued….. Your treatment of Active Angel should have shown more restraint. First of all I don’t think you have ever been sexually molested. Have you ever dealt with people that were? I have. In our satellite (FA) church we had a leader that did just that. It split the church up! Go back and read my previous posts about that, you loon. And don’t worry; no one here is blaming your fabulous Hobart Freeman for it. You need to understand when a person has had their innocence taken away from them in a situation like this, it makes no difference to their emotional state whether it’s in a Church or whatever, it’s not hard to lump the whole bunch together. I’ve had two people that I love go through something like this. I know Hombre, you don’t care, YOU’RE AN OVERCOMER! What you really are is an empty vessel and a fraud like I’ve said in the past. A ‘POLTROON’. That’s the word I said to you on overcomersonline that you got me banned for. Funny, you can call me a Moron on this site and get away with it, but I can’t call you a poltroon on another site you control. Well that’s what a ‘poltroon’ does, doesn’t he? It must really tick you off that some of us have gone on to have normal successful lives without bowing down to Hobart or all things FA. Do us all a favor and go back to www.overcomersonline.com and get with William. Both of you can stroke each others ego, overcome something and control the content on your little website without having to answer the hard questions. Hey maybe you can get some folks together for a Faith Assembly reunion and a hayride. Either way go away, you bore us. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 155 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.190.212 |
Another troll that shows off his foolishness with his empty words which they will have to account for on the day of judgment. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 165 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 218.230.254.141 |
Brother Mark seems to be implying that If I speak out against Freeman will I will be judged for it on the day of judgement? I must be careful brother Mark. "Take heed lest any man deceive you" Mark 13:5 I find it interesting that all who died that followed Christ died as martyers and not of disease but not one follower of Freeman died as a martyer but of disease. | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.86.124 |
mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 155 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.190.212 Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:54 pm: Edit Post Delete Post Print Post Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) "Another troll that shows off his foolishness with his empty words which they will have to account for on the day of judgment." Mark, If you’re talking about ‘Hombre’ I agree with you. However I don’t think it’s very ‘Overcomer’ of you to call him names like that. If I were you I would be hesitant to call other people names like ‘troll’, I’ve seen your picture on overcomersonline. Whew! | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 156 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.22.190.212 |
It just amazes me how so many people who were claimed that they sat under the deeper life message now have rejected it, claiming it to be legalistic and have walked away from what they once praised. It just goes to prove to me that you folks couldn't handle the teachings of the word of God. You know, there were many followers of Jesus until He started teaching them about the deeper things of God as well and most left him because His words were too strong for them. Only a handful remained...as is the case with the message that God gave Bro. Freeman. It also proves that you were not grounded in the word of God at all. And yet you have the audacity to tell us that everything was Brother Freeman's fault because of your failings and your immoral lifestyles that you fell into after leaving FA. And now I am reading about child abuse? How low will you go, those of you that cannot or will not account for your own failures. It just goes to prove to me the shallowness of your Christianity, that is, if you are Christians at all. I agree with Hombre on his posts and I trust that he will stand firm in trying to help you folks. But I am thinking now that he is wasting goods seed on bad soil. I wonder what other things everyone will be blaming Freeman for next. It is amazing that recently I was listening to Tom Hamilton on a tape just the other day about how people are blaming Freeman for their shortcomings and their adulterous lives and other things. He must have had access to this site as well as Tomax's site. He's about as disgusted about the blame game trap as I am. Why don't you just own up to your failures and stop blaming other people for your mistakes. It's time to take responsibility and repent of your misgivings and let God do a real healing in you. You mock at the overcoming message because you have been overcome yourself. You have let someone take that which you had. I can't believe how so many who had the priviledge of sitting under Bro. Freeman's ministry now have fallen away. I would have love to have gone to ONE service...just ONE. You had it for a number of years and yet you rejected what God gave you. How pathetic! Hang in there Hombre. God is on your side, my brother, my friend! | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 219.167.189.221 |
"I would have love to have gone to ONE service...just ONE". Only somebody like you could type that. You know the whole point of having this site is to discuss and expose, as well as other reasons, where cults like FA went wrong. Freeman interpreted the bible to mean that Jesus gave us all the power to raise the dead and heal the sick, but its interesting that only he and after he died, the apostles could do it. Jesus did it to prove to the unbeliving that he was the son of God. I cant find any scripture that quotes Jesus healing somebody, then they themselves giving up medical treatment and practicing healing or raising the dead, other than the disciples who he delegated power to do it after his asccension. The primary purpose of the miracles was to prove to the people that this stranger named Jesus was indeed the son of God. If some stranger came walking in my town proclaiming to be the son of God, I would obvisouly want proof, otherwise I would think him crazy. Jesus even acknowledged doctors exisited and were of value in this verse: "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." But go ye and learn what that meaneth. I will have mercy, and not sacrifice; for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9: 12,13 The danger in people like Freeman is that they read and twist the scripture word for word, and create bondages that only create more fear and guilt. When I read the scriptures with an open mind, I can see where Freeman made many errors. Sure, he belived what he taught and some of it was truth, but where he errored it cost folks their lives. | ||
| odysseus Junior Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.86.124 |
Brother Mark, Don’t feel sorry for me. Life is good and I can’t complain. God has blessed me richly. I’m not an adulterer either. I’m married to one woman; kids are grown except for one. Even have grandkids. Yes sir, I’m one happy man. The other good thing is I get to be entertained by mindless ‘neo-freemanites’ as yourself and Hombre along with sweet Moulder of overcomersonline.com, (you know the guy with the glasses). And yes I mock you; sorry you’re just too easy to make fun of with your room temperature IQ. You guys are just a target rich environment. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 233 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; ~ Heb. 12: 14-15 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. ~ Col. 3:12-17 The next issue to deal with here, is whether or not FA under HEF was a cult, and whether or not FactNet is: 1. A credible/reliable source or judge in that matter, and 2. A source for purely negative input concerning whatever group is listed, or a source for healing to those who seek to understand their lives. Was FA under HEF a cult? First. let's get a definition of the term. Here's one that should suffice to everyone's approval. Cult: a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. Every group on earth that is or ever was, can pretty much fit into this category, because people believe what they want to believe, and see those who don't as wrong, or unorthodox to their particular belief system. To the Protestants, the Catholic Church is one of the biggest cults in the world. To the Catholics, and liberals, the Evangelicals are nothing but a huge cult. To the Muslims, the entire world except them, all belong to Satan. Nazism was a huge political cult, following Hitler under a form of mass hypnosis, as psychologists will tell you. So were the Romans, the Greeks, the French under Napoleon, The Russians, the Chinese and the rest of the communists following yet another 'cult' of extremism with their secular heroes lionized. Bush, that Nazi to the liberals; the liberals as treehugging dimwits following speculative science to the conservatives. the Humanists following Darwin, yet missing their precious missing link and avoiding all other evidence to the contrary. To atheists, all religious people are cultists. Everyone is considered to be false, unorthodox and extremist to somebody, so the term ' cult' is relative. Here at Factnet, and generally, the term 'cult' is meant to impart a derogatory connotation of evil. If there are some who want to call FA under HEF a 'cult', then I suppose they have a right to do that under the constitution, but it may not be written in stone elsewhere....... | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 234 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Part 2. A. Is Factnet a credible source of material about 'cults'? Back to question 1. To those who want to believe it is, to them, it is. Let's take a look at some of the various groups Factnet lists as 'cults' or 'sects'. The Pentecostal Church. The Evangelical Hypocrisy/ Bush War Crimes Religious Leaders / Organizational Leaders / TV Evangelists Alcoholics Anonymous ( a group of people who obviously don't want to give up the bottle ) the Worldwide Church of God Atheism Oral Roberts University' FactNet ( even factnet doesn't escape its' own trolling net for evil ) Islam Campus Crusade for Christ ...and on, and on, and on. Everyone wants to complain, eviscerate, and/or crucify that which offends them personally. Factnet is anything to anybody. Therefore, no one here has a right to attempt to ban anothers' way of thinking or believing. It is a forum. A forum is defined as: an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. 2B. Is Factnet a source for purely negative input concerning whatever group is listed, or a source for healing to those who seek to understand their lives? Back to 2A. Factnet is whatever it is to anybody. Conclusion: To me, Factnet is an outreach to those who are lost or hurting. To some others, it is a place to curse and denigrate those they disagree with. I have stated many times, that I am not perfect, however, in looking at the road ahead of me, there appears always, a fork. There is a way that seems right to men, however, the Bible declares that to be the way of death. Let's prayerfully consider the one we take, especially with respect to others. | ||
| duncan Intermediate Member Username: duncan Post Number: 162 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
Hombre, 1) FA, under HEF and beyond, did(does) display cult-like characteristics. I would not go so far as to call it a cult. Toward the end of HEF's life, it became more and more introverted, thus becoming more cult-like. The main purpose of a church is to reach the lost and dying world. FA began that way, but eventually became a "closed society." The people and the leadership became more concerned with those that were already "overcomers" than with trying to reach out to a lost world. 2) Factnet can be a source of information (both good and bad), it can be a place to vent one's emotions due to past events that were upseting, and it can be a forum to challenge one's mind. I have used Factnet for all three of these things. That being said, the anonymity of this forum makes it very easy for people to breeze in and out with unverifiable statements. By its very nature, this forum has to be taken with a grain of salt. Just my thoughts. Duncan | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.93.150.107 |
Well like you I wouldn't call FA a cult. I also agree with the introverted bit. My experience was with one of the satellite churches in Canada. I was never part of FA so for me it was a little different. What I saw was myself and everyone I knew and from what I heard everyone everywhere else just following Freeman. He made a offhand comment about hunting for eg. and everyone quit hunting(bambi). I thank God for Bro. Freeman. I think he stood head and shoulders above his generation of xian leaders. The Holy Spirit used that man to lay a foundation of truth in my life that has served me very well. From my perspective though he would give an opinion on something and everyone just obeyed without question. As I said before I think he was idolized in an unhealthy way, I don't think he could see it, and I think it was spiritual. I simply don't understand why he couldn't see that. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 235 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Thanks, Duncan. RE: A closed society. Christianity is by its' very nature a 'closed' or 'exclusive' society. This is where Evangelicals and Calvinists part company. Yes, the church is not to hide its' light, but be a light to the world, but no, not everyone is called or chosen through predestination and election. The Calvinists might accuse the Evangelicals of vanity, and the Evangelicals might accuse the Calvinists of 'not fulfilling the Great Commission'. Personally, I tend away from the Evangelical position, because I see far too many wasted hard-earned dollars thrown away in worthless pursuits masquerading as 'missionary outreaches'. At the same time, I wouldn't have received Jesus as the Christ myself, if not for someone telling me about Him. Therefore, I tend to think that one needs to be very much led of the Lord, as to who, and when they are going to 'witness' to. Having said this, and knowing that someone will become offended at what I'm, going to say next, I will simply say that the 'lost' or 'unsaved' need to get 'saved' in order to take a place in the New Testament church. The church really does not need the lost sitting there week after week, twisting and perverting the Word of God to fit their own agenda in their minds thinking that they are OK, when they are not. In this I speak of the vast multitude who think that the act of going to church 'earns' them a ticket, and twist grace into works. Next, that being said, FA had far too many Catholics and Jews ( spiritually speaking ) who wanted laws and rules to govern their lives by, and guarantee the answers to their prayers , because they did A, B, and C. Within this sort of organized spiritual chaos, came the media to play up whatever they could find that would be sensational and sell airtime/newspapers. That was when FA/HEF shut out the world, and encouraged us to do the same. Along with this were the many other charismatic leaders, who denounced the 'Faith Message' and criticized HEF for his lack of 'love', whom HEF in turn criticized for their lack of loving the truth over touchy-feely goodtimes. All of these factors ( 1. Theology, 2. the Media and 3. Other Charismatics ) served to isolate FA and HEF. That HEF was wrong theologically, we are still arguing about. I am still 100% convinced that HEF had his theology down pat, and I put the blame elsewhere, including upon my own shoulders, than upon the Word of God, which no one is going to change, except by deleting 'problematic' verses, specifically beginning with the book of Mark, much of the other gospels, James, 1 John, Isaiah etc., etc., etc. It will remain a closed book and a closed religion to those who reject it, and therefore a 'cult' or 'cultish' to outsiders. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 236 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
BTW: .... thanks for the encouragment, Mark. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 167 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 219.165.155.142 |
Well of course I dont expect you to call it a cult. I noticed you (Homy) once again typed a whole lot about nothing. You didnt address one thing I typed in my post about the extremism of Freemans ideas. Like I said earlier, I read the bible for myself now and for the life of me I still cant understand how somebody could go off the deep end like Freeman did. I cant find anything in the New Testament that condemns anybody for seeking medical attention. Like I said earlier, Jesus healed and performed miracles so that people would belive this stranger was the son of God. The only other documented cases that I could find were the apostles doing it after Jesus died. Jesus even acknowledged the benifit of physicians in this verse: "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." But go ye and learn what that meaneth. I will have mercy, and not sacrifice; for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9: 12,13 It doesnt say, those who are lacking in faith or those who are sinners need a physician so obvisouly Jesus is not speaking of doctors as being occult like Freeman did but is refering to them as neccessary. Now I read your (Homy) post about the definition of cults. You even give us the definition: "Cult: a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader." I can say without any reservation that FA fit this description. There were churches on every corner near where I lived but none of them were worthy to attend because they didnt teach the "full word" What that meant was they werent unorthodox or extremist like Freeman. We had to drive for miles just to get the "true" word. Whats interesting, is after all that time and effort and hardship, that most of those clowns who were Freemans puppets that I had to endure listening to in satellite churches have returned to their worldly lives and forsaken the FA message. I notice that Homy goes on to list all these other churches and movements that could qualify as a cult. Well, if I wanted to discuss those "cults" I would be posting under another thread now wouldnt I? We are discussing the cult FA, not other churches. Then you and Duncan go on to disqualify Factnet as being a site that "is whatever it is to anybody" Whatever that is supposed to mean I dont know but when you go to their homepage, it clearly shows they are a site dedicated to exposing cults. Their mission states "We are to destructive cults, fundamentalism, mind control, and mental coercion/torture what Amnesty International is to physical torture" That doesnt appear to me to be just a site for general feel good blogging where people vent their frustrations their Homy and Duncan. You can google Freeman and see his name come up several time under cult catagories. I know you dont like to see that, but its the truth. And last but not least I read this ridiculous statement; "Within this sort of organized spiritual chaos, came the media to play up whatever they could find that would be sensational and sell airtime/newspapers. That was when FA/HEF shut out the world, and encouraged us to do the same." Dude you really are a hardcore Freemanite, arent you? The media only came after DEATHS began to surface. Deaths that could of been prevented. I mean what is the rest of the world supposed to do, allow this to continue? Cant you see where your thinking is twisted? I mean the US constitution allows for us all to practice whatever relegion we want, and gives us liberal choices but that doesnt mean you abuse it by allowing deaths to occur. Somebody eventually had to get involved. Its always interesting to read the replies from you and mark because you eventually reveal your twisted thinking. (Message edited by healed on January 05, 2007) | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 237 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
I don't find that either, healed. What I do find however, are promises repeated over and over concerning the wilingness of God to heal, physically, those who have the faith to believe. Next, re: documentation of supernatural healing. Since the Bible is not a complete historical compendium of planet earth, but rather a book of instruction for the believer, it is not going to house that which goes beyond the necessity of its instruction. It is already full of examples to follow anyway. One hundred more examples will not have any more effect upon a unbeliever, than the ones already there ( Luke 16: 19-31 ). ..but since you asked, here are a few things you might consider. Have you ever read Foxes book of martyrs?, I believe that there are a number of instances there. How about the documentation from ministers John G. Lake & Smith Wigglesworth, in our own century? How about the Catholic Churchs' method of saint canonization that requires 2 documented 'miracles' for 'sainthood' ? To say the the supernatural is non-existent, and that it never works, is to deny what the Bible teaches and promises, as well as to turn a deaf ear to realities that are not measurable, scientifically. So go measure a human spirit, and tell me if it exists, and how you can prove it does, or doesn't. What exactly is it anyway? And tell me, what is beyond deaths' gate? measure that for me, will you? Oh, I can testify to God's supernatural healing myself. The first thing I asked God to heal, when I was saved back in 1977, was a number of warts that I had on my hands. there were several that were painful, being between the joints of my fingers. There were about 7 or 8 of them. I can't remember the exact number. I had had these warts for a number of years. They were still there 6 months later. One day, I was driving my car, and looking down at my hands on the steering wheel, they were totally gone, with no sign that they were ever there. Big deal, you may say. Yes, everything is a big deal to God. That was an issue of faith, the same as any other thing. What's the difference between warts and anything else? Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed would move a mountain, didn't He? Okay, then. My wife had an incurable blood illness that her doctor diagnosed through testing. She believed it to be the result of her disobedience to God, in stretching herself beyond her physical limitations, and abusing her body through too much work. She decided to repent, and do what she knew God wanted her to do. A month later, the doctor monitored her blood once more and found it to be completely normal, with no sign of the disease. There's your documented proof of something seriously life-threatening being healed. There are still things that I am believing for, and that doctors couldn't heal anyway. The way you perceive this, is that it is a deluded teaching from FA/HEF. The way I perceive this is as an opportunity from God, that isn't offered by doctors and hospitals. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 238 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
So then, what you are saying is that although Factnet has a written directive, the reality of what it is, is actually much different, since it has become a dumping ground for anybody with a gripe about anyone. Isn't that exactly what we are saying FA was? That what was taught and condoned was much different than what individual people decided it was? I know of not a single person who was ever disciplined or thrown out because they went to a doctor, wore glasses or nikes, etc., etc., etc. Anyone who was ever disciplined was so for either heretical doctrinal reasons, or gross sin; as would have been the case with Angels' marauders and parents, had the leadership known. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 239 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
As for googling HEF, I don't put the internets' authority above the Bible; and that is what we are/have been arguing here. ....The fact is that HEFs' theology was/is/will continue to be right on the money, Biblically speaking, not popularly. If Google were around in the time of Christ, Jesus would no doubt have come up under 'cults', as well as the entire early church. Now lets take a look at the ethics of 'Google'. Mega-behemoth Google is buying up software concerns and redistributing them as 'freeware' to the dismay and destruction of small business software developers. It is venturing into areas through its' massive capital outreach while disabling others trying to do the same. It is accused of attempting to turn copyright laws upside down, by compiling through outright theft, an online library of books, which they cover up by taking from online libraries like New York Public Library, whom they have cut deals with, without the consent of the original authors. It is described as the 'Online Giant that can make a small business or break it' *. Googles search engine, which is a complex and highly secretive algorithm, is altered occasionally without warning or explanation, yet alters dramatically the lives of those dependent upon the internet for sales. Google is paid by advertisers to feature them in prominence; however, ' Googles' stated goal of organizing all of the worlds' information is almost guaranteed to bring its' advertisers headaches: if Google has its' way, every word ever written and every image ever created will one day be catalogued on its' servers. From a business PR- perspective, that means good press will show up in search results. So will corporate scandal coverage, leaked proprietary information, bad product reviews, blogger rants, you name it. As the volume of searchable information swells, advertisers will increasingly find themselves in a bind. As night follows day, embarrassing content will pop up next to their ads.' *. Google is becoming the quintessential 21st century, abusive, imperialist techno-cartel. That they have tremendous business acumen and resources is indisputable, what is however, is their brand of ethics. That is enough for me to disqualify them as a viable resource for jurisprudence in ethical questions. What turns up in their searches is whatever turns up. That there are other sites that are critical toward FA/HEF is a big yawn. * FORTUNE Small Business, Sept. 2006 | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 240 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
You are absolutely correct; and to be perfectly fair, we should also immediately begin to prosecute every doctor and hospital when one of their patients dies. Let's see now, that would be, well I don't know...if you Google 'hospital deaths yearly', you come up with over 1 million result pages, that are categorized by disease. Why am I not seeing chain gangs composed of doctors and hospital administrators? Why am I not seeing outraged citizens demanding justice, and cursing their existence, with among other words, poltroons? Yes, WHY do WE allow this to continue?...and to top it off, if a person can't afford medical help, they are denied treatment. Gee, their ethics are WAY up there now, aren't they? I seem to remember a verse that God thought was important enough to include in His Eternal Word: ...and a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any....Luke 8:43. Yeah, as it was then, so it is now. BTW, here's a good book for you to read: http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Medical-Heretic-Robert-Mendelsohn/dp/0809241315/sr=1-1/qid=1168366113/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-8166882-7325218?ie=UTF8&s=books | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.108.117.166 |
Dang, you know thats the same book that Hobart quoted and my relative was always thumping when they got on that kick about how evil medicine was. Your still reading that? BTW, thats not a good book for me to read as I had to read it and i even had to get those relegious immunizations as well. Thats a very weak arguement about the hospitals and doctors having mishaps ect, but straight out of FA so I expect nothing less. Its like comparing apples and oranges and ridiculous as all heck. You failed to point out that most of the deaths at FA, probally more than 80%, could of been prevented with simple medical treatments. The deaths at hospitals are mostly advanced injuries or diseases like automobile or cancer cases. This is no brainer stuff. I noticed you quoted Luke 8:43 but said nothing of Mathew 9: 12, 13. So the woman had spent all her living upon physicians. It doesnt say that she would perish in hell for it, it means the Saviour had come to prove to the world he was the son of God and this was another case to prove that. She wasnt punished for seeing the physicians, it doesnt say that. You should remove the blinders that Freeman put on you so you too can be truly healed as I am. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 157 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.243.21.49 |
Hey Healed. You say that you are healed? LOL. Answer me this...if going to the doctors and trusting in man is ok, then why do doctors take out medical malpractice insurance? Just in case they screw up and get sued. Isn't it funny that God doesn't need malpractice insurance. Trusting in Him will always be the safe way to get really healed. God does not make mistakes, does not screw up when it comes to healing because He is perfect. I don't know....I think I would rather trust in the Perfect One...the One who said that "I am the Lord that Healeth thee," rather than the doctor that healeth thee. Isn't it funny that James 5 did not say to call the doctor when you get sick but to call the elders of the church and let them anoint you with oil in the Name of the Lord and the prayer of faith, not the surgeon's knife, will heal the sick and the Lord (not medical science) will raise him up. I think I will go with the infallibe word of God and not the fallible word of man. Thank God Hobart taught the truth. It's too bad that the devil stole the word out of your heart. Read Mark chapter 4 and see what I mean. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 220.99.213.7 |
Well once again our favorite brother Mark has responded with a statement that proves how dumb but faithful to Freeman he really is. You ask me the obvious no brainer question about medical malpractice insurance for hospitals which I wont even bother responding to, but you failed to mention the several lawsuits that were pending towards Freeman for his RESPONSIBILITY for the deaths of member of HIS congregation. I think before you go pointing out the wrongs of medical science, perhaps you should mention the wrongs of Freeman as well. I dont know about thanking God that Hobart taught the truth as you say, but I do thank God that he took him from this world before others could die. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 158 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.243.21.49 |
The reason that God took him home was because too many people lifted him up on a pedastal and exalted him. God will not share his glory with no man. Also, God took him home to see if the people were following a man or the God of the Bible. It was a sifting that God did. And as we canplainly see, many people were along for the ride. The Bible says "Smite the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered." Where all all the thousands of people following Freeman? Scattered. Get over it Unhealed. God took him home, not to keep him from "killing" more people or for other erronious teachings, like you claim, but to see if the people really had faith in God to trust Him all the way. Looks like God accomplished His purpose. And look what happened...the people who left the work are in sin, adultery, and the denominational systems of man with no challenging word. Back to easy believism, where they are no longer challenged to live a separated life...people who want to live, look, dress and act like this stinking world. It proves that the pure word that was preached to them fell on bad soil. Concerning medical science...I would rather trust God who makes no mistakes than to trust man who does. You can trust in your god if you like. I will take healing from God only all the way. It is typical that you don't want to take the blame for your failures but to blame someone else. Typical Adam and Eve mentality. Enough of wasting my time with words that you will not heed to. I suppose that if you get saved, you will join the cookies and coolaide marshmellow Christianity crowd that cannot overcome a hangnail. Typical mindset of those who are overcome by everything that comes their way. So go blame Freeman or who you want for your failures. It wouldn't surprise me that you will start blaming God for your failures. After all, it was God's servant (Freeman) that taught about divine healing. Why don't you blame God for the deaths? After all, God gave Freeman the message, right out of the Bible. Have fun thinking about that one. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 172 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 60.46.153.191 |
Well I didnt have fun thinking about it Mark but did have fun laughing at it. Its amazing how you and your comrades will find a way to justify everything that Freeman taught. You quoted the scripture about Jesus saying "Smite the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered." Jesus was refering to himself. So your saying Hobart was on the same level as Jesus? What about Matthew 24: 23, 24; "For there shall arise false Christs, and false PROPHETS, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The folks at FA were not following the bible, they were following a man, and after this man died, they had no one to lead them anymore. This isnt following Christ, this is allowing your mind to be controlled by a man. God didnt give Freeman the message as you say, Freeman took scripture and made his own message. I go back and read the bible for myself, and I can clearly see where Freeman took passages and made them into his own law. Only a fool like you would never doubt the legitimacy of Freemans words. | ||
| mark1124 Intermediate Member Username: mark1124 Post Number: 159 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.243.21.49 |
He also said that griveous wolves would enter in and deceive the flock after he was gone. Look what happened. You know what happened. Griveous wolves did come in and deceived everyone at FA. The flock, as I alluded to, did get scattered. From 2,000 it is now down to 50. Freeman was right again, as usual. And by the way, healed, you are right that the assembly followed a man. That is a rare time that I will agree with you. They did follow a man. They did not check things out according to scripture as they were supposed to according to Acts 17:11. They put Freeman on a pedastle (sp) which was wrong. And by the way...back to the blame game issue. I was wondering, healed. If you go before the judgment seat of Christ, are you or anyone else, for that matter, going to stand before the throne of God one day and tell the Lord that it was Hobart Freeman's fault that you as well as others couldn't make it in the end? Are you going to blame Freeman in from of Jesus about all of the things that happened at FA? I wish I could be there to watch your reaction when the Lord vindicates His servant Hobart Freeman in front of you. Wishful thinking on my part and a nice fantasy at that. But the thought was interesting. Enough of this nonsense. And be careful about calling me a fool. What did Jesus say about calling someone a fool. I will give you a homework assignment. Look up what Jesus said about calling someone a fool. Read it in the Bible and not what anyone, even Freeman said about it. I hope it brings you to your knees in repentance. | ||
| healed Intermediate Member Username: healed Post Number: 173 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 219.165.160.174 |
Well Im glad that you finally came to your senses. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 243 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 |
Senses? I think it's time for a topical search. The Existence of God, is Without Need for Justification or Proof by Anyone. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ... ~ Romans 1:20 We Obtain From God, Through Faith, NOT by Our Senses. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. ~ Heb. 11: 1 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. ~ Heb. 11: 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Faith is a Relationship and an Attitude of Devotion. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts. ~ Prov. 21: 2 The Vision that God Wants Us to Have, is NOT One of the Five Senses. Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. ~ Prov. 29 : 18 | ||
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