| Author | Message | ||
     exmonk Junior Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
I am going to go out on a limb here and try to make this forum more pro-active. This an attempt to communicate to the members of the CofJ. First I want to say that I hope in the name of God that the present administration does not prohibit your accesing this message board online. Second I would like to point out that there are many postings here where former members have expressed that they still love, care for and pray for those friends and family they left behind when they left the community. So please do not regard this as an attack on the Community. We are mearely trying to speak freely in an open forum in honesty and truth, the very founding principles that the community was supposedly built on. My hope is that there can be reconciliation. We are a part of your history whether you like it or not. 22 years of my life are tied up in that place. I do not regret that I joined as so much enrichment occured there that would never have otherwise in my life personally. What I do regret is the cult-like control, hurtful practices and the ungodly presumption on some individuals part to inflict indelable scars on so many lives. This is a problem that has a potential solution. Will you, all of you;not just the administration, please consider this as a cry for help, an extended hand in friendship, a desire to set things right? I personally think the community can be as effective in the world with out being a closed, super controlled invironment. I imagine some of the posters on this board will have an adverse reaction and I respect your feelings and opinions. I would ask everyone to have an open mind to this particular thread. Thanks | ||
| pandersen New member Username: pandersen Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.70.130.120 |
Thanks, exmonk. This is a good contribution. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 467 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.165.241 |
I guess if there is anything I would want most for those still in the community to hear, it is for the children to have hope and know that you deserve to have choices. Please seek us out if you decide to leave, do not try to face the world alone there are resources and people available to help you transition and start a new life if you choose. It was primarily lack of resources and support that made my transition so hard. I will do whatever I can to help you find the resources you need so that it will not have to be as hard for you. You deserve to have Love, Life and Freedom. | ||
| maxiez32 New member Username: maxiez32 Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.136.26.226 |
I would like my family in the community to know that we love them and that we always will, no matter if they stay in the community or leave at some point. We just continue to pray for peace and reconciliation, and we are trying to leave the rest in God's hands. We do miss you terribly and we hurt to see you hurting and feeling so poorly about yourselves. We just want to underscore that we believe God's love is unmatched and it is extended to ALL of His children. We love you!!! | ||
| blindcomposure New member Username: blindcomposure Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.5.25.222 |
Alright, this is pretty much crap. These people are not "held" by some power. This sounds like a damn seance. What the hell people? I'm telling you from personal experience that they FEEL free. Whether or not you think they actually are is YOUR business. And pressing your values on them is rediculous. Allow people to realize what they will in God's time. They aren't slaves; they need no Emancipation Proclimation. A great deal of my family is there, and happy about it too. There is a lot of good stuff that just wasn't for me. So I've left. But to sit here, writing heartbroken messages on a public forum to people is just plain old stupid. I'm sorry. I mean no offense but look at it for what it is. You may see things differently and more power to ya. I understand what is trying to be done and said, but if you feel that strongly about it, take it right to the source. I don't know. I'm not trying to instigate any conflict. Have at it. I know I've •••••• someone off here. | ||
| ramblin_man New member Username: ramblin_man Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.253.192 |
Whoaa there youngster. May I suggest a slightly less critical tone, at least in your first few posts. My psychiatrist once explained to me that feelings aren't facts. They're just feelings and as such they can't be judged as right or wrong. If you feel it, you feel it. Just the way it is. What people are discussing and working on here is feelings, ok? So relax a little. You are no more right in your "feeling" about the place than anyone else is in theirs. Lets try to remember and respect that we've all had different experiences. The thing is, w/ a little less arrogance, your views will enrich the discussion as no one's here to bash, just to share and trade experciences. | ||
| exmonk Junior Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Yes Blindcomposure, I have to agree with Ramblin_man. We are all about mutual respect here as well. Please feel free to disagree. But your are encouraged also to argue your point with regard to courtesy if you want to be taken seriously. So you have a lot of family there. OK how long were you there, how old were you when left and have you been back to visit recently in the last few years? Most of us spent decades of our lives there and are you going to tell ALL of us we don't know what we are talking about? I was there for at least two decades of my adult life and I like many were told if we left, great harm would come to us. Does that sound like there is a little misguided leadership? As far as taking it too the source. We have done that. Look at the links to the news paper articles. We were not allowed to read said articles when we were there or discuss them. Community responses by groomed members were irresponsibly deceptive and untruthful. I personally wrote the administration several letter and notes befor I left and even asked for a face to face meeting about some illegal if not immoral situations and practices that I was very concerned about. I was not allowed to even meet with the leader or have my concerns addressed. So I have to ask you just how inolved you were. There are a lot of folks who sacrificed their lives, youth, ambition, and life savings just to name a few and had to start their lives over from ruin because of the cult like control and cult like practices that are an everyday occurrence there. I am quite willing and ready to argue the facts with you showing mutual respect in an open furum. Something that was never allowed ever in my many years I was there. Bring it on... | ||
| searchlight Junior Member Username: searchlight Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.253.192 |
Welcome blindcomposure! All opinions are welcome here. It's great that you've joined us. Tell us more about your departure from the CJ. How did it go for you? I'm glad to hear you are still close to your family. That's terrific. I also am really glad, for your sake, that you did not encounter any of the bologna that some did. As I have always said on this site, there is no black and white - nothing can be all good or all bad. Your post reminds us of this, so thank you. Try to be good to us though, if you can. Many here are hurting. Again, welcome. | ||
| exmonk Junior Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
Blindcomposure, Perhaps you were born there. Given time you will eventually see the community in a whole new light. I don't know how long you have been out, but try to be open minded. Most of us were out for a year befor we felt like we could really rationalize things objectively. | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 516 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.165.241 |
Hi blindcomposure, welcome. I realize not everyone who has lived at CoJ and GCC experienced the same hell that I did, but many have, and it doesnt change that fact. | ||
| blindcomposure New member Username: blindcomposure Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.5.25.222 |
I apologize for being harsh. I was directed to this site by a family member who is also no longer in the Community and I suppose it probably just was a lot to take in at once. It was an overreaction on my part. I never encountered people actually blocking me from discussing issues that I had problems with. They were perhaps reluctant to discuss them, but never did they actually attempt to not allow me room to voice my opinion. With that all in mind, I realize where you are coming from. Again, I really would like to apologize for being so very harsh. I haven't even been "out" more than a year. In some ways, I'm really not quite "out" yet. It's a strange issue. But if I were to send a message to family in the community, it would be simply to be happy for me that I am finally able to relax in my own life. That's about all. | ||
| questiongrrl New member Username: questiongrrl Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.230.78.143 |
blindcomposure, thanks for your last post on the other thread (messages for families). it is completely understandable that you would have a strong reaction to what you are reading here. i have been gone for quite some time and am fairly comfortable talking about my experiences, but i still get overwhelmed and defensive from time to time. just try to take what helps you, and leave the rest. the process of (re)building your life is a long one, and i have found that information & discussion is only helpful for me if/when i am ready for it. no one here is going to insist that you agree with them, or what they have to say. have a good day! p.s. if your experiences are different/better than some of the ones you see discussed here, i am glad to hear it. that will certainly enable you to move forward more easily in your life "outside" the coj! | ||
| searchlight Member Username: searchlight Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.19.253.192 |
Hi again blindcomposure, It was strange to me that although I left without a lot of bitterness, the longer I was out, the more "holes" I saw in the CJ. It's hard to describe I guess, except to say that I could NEVER go back to living there. So much stress, busyness, politics, confusion, crowdedness etc...I love that my new friends will, for example, help me out if I make a bad choice instead of correcting me. I just feel so much safer all the time. I can enjoy my family in a new way too, which is wonderful with no apologies necessary for putting them first. I realized that I always lived on the defensive, afraid any second I'd be moved or, or, or..... I feel so lucky to be out to experience life this way. For me, it is so much better. p.s. I agree with you about the music/art program. Portions of it were great. | ||
| exmonk Junior Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
I have a problem with all the talk about litigation against different cults. Every body has lived through a difficult time and made sacifices of significance in their lives. To try to bring a law suit against the community for causeing you emotinal stress is an ongoing debate. I think those people who were born into these situations, have legitimate gripes and deserve acknowledgement for being subjected to a life they did not choose and should be shown support in starting their lives over. Adults who chose to come and spend their lives there had a choice to leave at any time even though it seemed imposible to do so with the peer preasure telling you, you will fall from God's grace, or die if you did. If you chose to beleive that, I don't think you can lay claim that the institution involved owes you money or otherwise. I do however think you have a right and a responibility to speak out and say what you think is wrong and criminal if there is substance to subtantiate a claim. I gave up $2500.00 dollars when I joined the brotherhood in 1982. I asked for some of that back and was denied when I left in 2001. I did give it to them and they chose not to return it. They were not required to. Would have been nice if they had as I had absolutely nothing at the time. I worked very hard to support myself and it taught me the value of supporting myself on my own and eventually to have a family and be responsible with my finances. I had lots of help from my parents when things got rough. I have given thousands of dollars to others who spouses were irresponable and failed to provide for their children. I have given money to friends who have made terrible choices and were so much in a hole that they were contemplating suicide. I cared and gave when I could. People gave to me when things looked imposible. If I at this point in my life decide to sue the Community of Jesus,or Grenville Christian College, it would be irresponsible on my part and hurt a great deal of people I care about. Cause severe hardship for more folks and irreparably destroy any chance of reconciliation. I wish there were funds readily available to help those who sacrificed and made themseles vulnerable only to leave and struggle to make it on the outside. I would encourage the community to read the posts of those who are struggling emotionally and financially and reach out to help. After all, those individuals especially those born into or brought into the organizations as children, did not have a choice in getting involved. My point is we Americans enjoy freedoms most the rest of the world do not. Lets not abuse that priveledge and make our legal system a joke. Lawyers will do anything you want if you pay them enough money. Is it really worth a few bucks to stick it to them while some lawyer makes money off your greivances? (Message edited by exmonk on May 31, 2006) | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.55.194 |
To anyone still living at the community and thinking we are lost souls and that we will burn in hell for posting here. Take a minute and pray, and try to unplug yourself from all the cofJ hype and jargon and just see if you don't beleive that there may be some truth to what is being posted here. First of all, I don't have any animosity towards anyone there. I am not a disgruntled former member. Yes I have issue with the former and present leadership. Because there were many situations that should have been exposed and dealt with. Most of which did not happen to me. I came back and visited this last year. Some of you hugged me and it meant a lot to me. Others were quite cold, ignored and walked away when I said hello. Kind of like I had leprosy. Now I would like to chalenge each and every one of you to read these posts and even respond if you think we are off base or just plain crazy. I still love you guys. I miss you. I want to be friends again. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Why do you insist that the body of Christ remain fractured? Do you think that those outside the community are lost to grace? I said this before an I will say it again. I think the community could be way more affective as an open environment rather than so closed an controlled by one person. I pray for the reforms necessary so that we can be friends again. | ||
| usedtobethere New member Username: usedtobethere Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 209.47.31.7 |
I write this to the families, mothers, fathers and siblings of children (adults now) who have left the community. I implore you to reach out to those that are not with you, not to draw them back to community but to love them and accept them where they are. The pain you are causing them is so damaging. As a mother who was where some of you were or are, I "cut off" my children. I can only say that when you realize the result of your actions, the pain in your heart will almost be unbearable. It is inhuman to be so cool and distant with your offspring. This practice of shunning your own flesh and blood is damaging to their souls as well as your own. I am praying that all at the CofJ who are estranged from their children or siblings will reach out and as stated accept them for the mature young people that they are and have become (some at varying stages of recovery from leaving community). It is devasting for them to be shunned by those closest to them. I can attest to this, it has taken work on both sides to rebuilt the growing relationship that I am so fortunate to now have with my children but it was too long coming (my fault) and it has also been very painful for all. Please take responsibility for your actions and the hurtful impact that you have had on these lives, REPAIR THE GULF BETWEEN YOU. I speak as one mother's heart who is hurting for your children and families out here. Sincerely | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
The problem, as I see it, is that if any CoJ members acknowledge any legitimacy of the posts of any survivors, this acknowledgement will create a crack, a small division between them and the Community. We all remember what life in the Community was like. "If you're not for us, you're against us." That crack itself causes pain, so it's safer and easier to dismiss us all as disgruntled ex-members, people who just placed themselves above the will of God. So, rather than appealing to CoJers to be a bit more open, I'd like to suggest that they look at areas where they KNOW the Community to be in error. After I left, I saw the first part of a TV expose on the Community and heard Betty Pugsley directly lie and say that children were never separated from their parents. This wasn't simply a different take on things, or a different interpretation: it was a lie. Are followers of Jesus really ready to say that it's acceptable to lie for the sake of truth? My own process of starting to see clearly was to recognize that to completely accept all of what was done by Cay and Judy (and nothing else was possible, at least while I was there) would force me to lie to myself. The Community survives and thrives on instilling such fear that it is internalized by people living there. Then, they will police themselves lest that fear be realized. There are many wonderful things about the Community, notably its arts and its worship. But does that justify the lack of trust, the lying, the true idolatry that goes on there? The Community's leadership likes to portray things in black or white. "We must be doing God's will because he's blessing us. So, if something seems wrong to me, I must be the one who's in rebelllion." But that's not the way things really work. Many of us who are survivors acknowledge the good the Community does for both its members and for the outside world and yet see the grievous nature of the leadership. Where something like child abuse can go unexposed, something is terribly, terribly wrong. This isn't "rebellion" or "independent thinking": it's just plain true. The Community's leadership's genius is in placing members in a situation where they must accept all or nothing. As a Christian (still!), I believe that we're all sinners and all loved by God. But this does NOT justify the mind control, manipulation, cruelty, and injustice done by the Community's leaders. And to work to equate the leaders with God's will, as the Community has always done, is so despicable precisely because it creates a false choice: you can either be on God's and the Community's side or you can follow selfish desires and reap the just rewards. For me, the first inkling of freedom came when I realized this forced choice was untrue. Great good and great evil can co-exist. While I was at the Community, I found the worship and the music to be deeply, deeply fulfilling. But that doesn't justify the abuses of the leadership, regardless of what they tell you. | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
Food for thought: According to Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D., these are the signs of a cult. As far as I know, neither of these two are even aware of the Community. Which of these would current members recognize as practices of the Community? 1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. 2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. 3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). 4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). 5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). 6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. 7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). 8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). 9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. 10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. 11. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. 12. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. 13. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
Hal, I think we should print these up in leaflets and air drop thousands on the community and Orleans. What do you think? | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
Hal, I think we should print these up in leaflets and air drop thousands on the community and Orleans. What do you think? | ||
| banjax New member Username: banjax Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 81.179.133.67 |
Hey exmonk - good idea but guess CofJ has a no fly zone order, the members of the Spirit of America Band are all trained in anti-aircraft weaponary, and if they've got their heads in the sand they probably won't see the leaflets raining down on them! Guess elevating them to the status of Endanged Species might help short term! | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.26.25 |
Banjax------Too friggin funny!! In all seriousness they would have to dig their heads out of the sand and then a leaflet would have to be glued to their foreheads for them to read it. God forbid they acknowledge the truth. Thanks to Hal for posting those 13 cult signs. Sadly, it sure does ring a bell! | ||
| expathmember Junior Member Username: expathmember Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.66.159.51 |
I think the leaflet idea is a great one! Like halhelms said about seeing the TV expose- a bit of truth can be the thing which gets a member questioning. Can you leave a stack at the music store or someplace they are likely to go?? Also, I have a question- people have several times mentioned child abuse...can you be more specific? Is it other than removing children from their parents?? | ||
| bluesman New member Username: bluesman Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.39.216.235 |
Actually, all that is required is an objective consideration of the list. If one cannot do that, then that's an indication of a greater problem. | ||
| onshore Member Username: onshore Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.222.224.200 |
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/thought_reform.htm Does anything printed here NOT sound familiar? | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
I have family who are still associatiated with the CofJ who do not regard it as a cult. It was 4 years after leaving befor I really acknowledged it myself. I am trying to think of how to present that fact through an objective vehicle where my family can realize it. Most every one will feel repelled and appalled if I say it is. They are so convinced that if you speak out against the leadership there, you are speaking against God. I will try forwarding those 13 points to friends and family and see what reaction I get. If anyone else has ideas on other ways to gently shed light on the truth to loyal ones, I would love to hear. I find when I call that spade outright, my family tends to think I am doing my thing again and need to chill out. I don't consider it my mission to expose the community but I sure as hell want my family and friends to know where I stand on the issue. | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
It's certainly a challenge, exmonk, when one of the grave sins at the CofJ is "independent thinking". Could they be any more blatant about the fact that they want to control how people think? I know, I know: it's couched as having a mind under the control of the Holy Spirit, but at what point did the Holy Spirit decide that lying, manipulation, and abuse were fruits of the Spirit? I hope many people find this forum and post their own stories so that Community members can see that (a) there is life -- a real life -- outside of the Community and (b) they're being lied to by the leaders. | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
The really sad thing is also that they are so conditioned to not question the leadership. And the leadership in all areas is trained to say that they are speaking for God and it is ONLY "rebellion" in someone's nature that they would question authority, leadership, or not accept the golden lies issued as the truth. My question is how can the Holy Spirit allow this to go on. How can God and Christ allow this to spread. Then in looking back in History, it is obvious that other seeming sucsessful intstitutions like this lasted so long and then crashed, or failed due to scandals, schisms and fraudulent administration. I fear we may see either revolution, or disolution as a result. I would like see revolution and re-examining of the way one person manages total control over hundreds of people and get away with such blatent nepotism. Spirit of truth prevail indeed! | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
I can't say I understand "why the wicked prosper". It seems to me that people have been asking this for a long time! Something I think about is that knowing my own heart, it's an awfully good thing that God is patient and forgiving. As I see it, we're all wretches and need God's forgiveness. That's true for victims and tormentors alike. I'm not in any way trying to provide a moral equivalency for children growing up under that tyranny and the people who made their lives hell. What Cay and Judy created, and apparently Betty P. perfected, was a system of systematic dehumanization where the person trusts no one -- not even their own thoughts -- but defers all judgment, all morality to the leader(s). Another strict authoritarian once wrote, "In the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility." In the case of the Community, the big lie was all that all you had been taught, all that you felt that had not been prescribed by the Community was wrong. The world of the Community is a very narrow one, with far more of "them" than of "us". It's a world wracked by fear, so that the Community draws an ever-tightening circle, within which we are "safe". You can trust neither your brother nor your sister nor your parents nor your spouse nor even yourself. Only the Leader can be trusted. Only the Leader knows God's will. The world is filled with enemies waiting to ensnare us and only the Leader can keep us safe. The Leader must, in order to maintain this paranoia, control the environment as tightly as possible and maintain it they must, for paranoia is the source of their power. The reason all cults are so similar is that the methods for control, outlined by the 13 signs of a cult, is that there are only so many ways to induce the personality's breakdown and it's breakdown the Leader wishes. Thinking persons, joyous persons, free persons are not only useless to the Leader; they are positively threatening. They must be demonized so that yesterday's brother or sister in Christ becomes today's tool of Satan. This furthers the paranoia, since anyone can, at any time, be "found" to be a tool of Satan...when it's convenient for the Leader. Today, you might be in good standing, but what of tomorrow? It's best to keep one's head down, not questioning, not challenging and always, always vowing undying support for the Leader. | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
I must say Hal that you are every bit as eloquent as your father was. Have you ever considered writing to publish? | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.26.25 |
YES,have to agree with exmonk! Thanks for your helpful insights Hal. Wonderful to have someone on board who has knowledge from the past about CofJ and can so openly share. Thankyou from all of us who continue to question and heal! | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
Thanks much, exmonk and cryfreedom. I think I inherited my love of language from my Dad. I've written a couple of technical books on programming, but have thought at time about writing a sort of "Confessions of an Irreligious Christian" about some of the lessons I think I learned. I'm so glad that this forum exists -- for all of us as well as for Community members for whom the lies may be wearing thin. | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.26.25 |
OUT of all of the "threads" that a CJ or GCC member could post on, this should be the one! I hope some of you(ok alot of you) are reading these entries and starting to see the truth for what it really is! NO, NOT the truth you were told but the truth that rings true in your heart(if you will only listen!). There are some family members and friends out here wishing to be connected again but are continually being hurt and pushed away just because they left and no longer exist in your minds. WAKE UP and realize we are all God's children and therefore HE LOVES US ALL!! So stop judging and putting your communities on a pedestal. It is about time that pedestal crashes and you accept people for who they are!! So if some of you are actually listening and HEARING what is being said then be brave enough to share. But please DON'T waste our time condoning anything. There are too many people who have been hurt physically and emotionally to hear excuses!! My feelings for the day! | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
My sentiments exactly, CF. I understand that present members have read these posts and have stopped communicating with loved ones on the outside. Typical but also pathetic. Everything said in these forums are not nearly as confrontational as what happens on a daily basis in the Community of Jesus with those who live there. I wish someone there can explain why in the name of all that is HOLY, why that should be any reason what so ever, to stop communicating with loved ones on the outside. WAKE UP PEOPLE! Such action is un-Christian, hurtful and will require your accountability on judgment day. The degree of being cut off like that is a slap in the face of Christ. Yet you profess to serve Christ. Christ is not an alderly woman who thinks she is absolute authority on earth. She is a fallable human like the rest of us. I do not wish to decry or speak ill of the Community of Jesus, but the actions practiced by the community towards former members who are good and decent CHRISTIANS, (did you get that?. Yes part of the body of Christ), requires to be addressed by the Holy Gospels themselves. I am not going to start a scripture war here however. I think the Holy Spirit will have to convict those who are willing to shun their own flesh and blood for reasons that are erroneous for theological and socialogical reasons. In other words, it is just wrong. Will it really make you question your own commitments to consider loved ones who live on in a different geographical location who beleive it is not Gods will for them to live as you do? Is there so much doubt in your life that you must shut everything out that threatens to balance of power in Rock Harbor? Is there anyone, yea one brave soul who will speak up and say why! | ||
| foundmyway New member Username: foundmyway Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.59.164.18 |
If anyone at the CofJ or GCC is reading this threat, I would like to speak from personal experience. While living in community I believe/thought I had a relationship with God. Upon leaving I have come to realize my relationship was with the leadership of the community. I only prayed out of desperation, only felt healing when the approval of the leadership came my way, only felt good about myself when I knew I was in good favour, only felt "a calling" when the leadership told me what my calling was. God is closer now that I am on my own. I have a personal obligation to listen with my own heart and be responsible for my own actions. Humans are fallable and should not be trusted with any ones' soul. Even as parents we have an obligation to teach our children right and wrong but as they mature they become responsible for their own actions. How do you justify your dependancy on one sole leader. On judgement day what will you say? | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.26.25 |
"foundmyway", did you mean to say "thread" or "threat" as I certainly did not mean to make any threats. Just wanted some members to get some balls and start listening with their OWN hearts and not worshiping the "word" of the leaders. Like you said "foundmyway" the approval of the leardership plays such a large role in the control they have over these members!! | ||
| foundmyway New member Username: foundmyway Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.59.164.18 |
I meant thread - I am in complete agreement with you, Cryfreedom. (Should proof read my postings!!) Sorry for the confusion. My questions are to the members of these organizations. | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
Let me play Devil's Advocate (maybe literally, in this case!). It may be too much to expect a community member to post on this board. That would be an act of...shudder..."independent thinking". But I think it would be helpful to deal with some of the objections they might raise. So, here are some responses I would have made while I was a community member, had I come across this post. foundmyway, you said that humans are fallible and should not be trusted with one's soul. But haven't Christians throughout the centuries trusted a spiritual leader with their souls? How is the CoJ any different in this regard? exmonk, you said, in regard to cutting off communicatio with family members on the outside: "Such action is un-Christian, hurtful and will require your accountability on judgment day." But, if these family members are in error, should we not avoid them? Can there be any profit from discoursing with emissaries of Satan? halhelms, you wrote: "Another strict authoritarian once wrote, 'In the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility.'" Who was this strict authoritarian? // I raise these points, not because I believe they are correct, but because I think they may be silently believed by current CoJers and GCCers. I hope that any former members who feel so inspired can help current community members with these questions. | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
The strict authoritarian was Adolph Hitler. Oh, no! I'm arguing with myself! LOL. | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1061 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.167.26 |
LMAO!!! Hal, you are tooo funny. I have heard so many times the act of shunning backed by the scripture in the bible where Jesus says, Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." What the ****?????? It is statements like that which cause me to question even the integrity of the teachings of Jesus. It just does not make any sense. Anyone have any insight into this? Because based on that scripture, Jesus condones neglecting children. Maybe that is why some of us had such horrendous childhoods in the community. | ||
| laetamini Junior Member Username: laetamini Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.126.172.201 |
Dear DT, Here's my take on that and other scriptures - I will probably ruffle feathers of many "good" Christians, but so be it. I'll state I do believe in God and Jesus. I pray. I have a lot of difficulty with organized religions for reasons that don't need a rocket scientist to figure out. I shall see how I progress as time goes on. That being said, First, the Bible was written by people who thought and spoke in an entirely different language. Actually there were several languages. Translations have been made by many people of many persuasions. And right there you have a HUGE margin for error. I have read the Bible several times at least from cover to cover. I've done work & thought studies from scriptures. In these studies, I would look up one verse or segment from as many translations as I could find both at the CJ & online. There were a lot. Put side by side, you could interpret the words differently, and sometimes because of the sentence structure a whole different meaning could be taken from the exact same verse. OK, add to that, Jesus and others who actually wrote the Gospels/Letters/Etc. Lived in an entirely different time and culture. This adds a hugely important layer to the interpretation layer. For example take Paul - in so many of his letters he bugs the DAYLIGHTS out of me -- seems so harsh, self-righteous and scrupulous until it occured to me that he was writing a private letter to people he was yelling at. When I'm ticked, I don't always say things in the best possible way, or even totally make sense. So anyone who takes Paul literally, in my little opinion, is silly. I don't pretend to understand why Jesus said that, however my thought on that specific verse and others like it are: A. Perhaps this saying of Jesus' was taken out of context, and the whole inflection of what he was saying misconstrued. (It's happened to me, so I can see it could have happened to Jesus and others) B. Perhaps this type of statement was not meant to be literal. The point I think he was making was "following God is the most important." C. It's interesting to note that the Bible was written by men.....there's little to no window into their personal lives. I think if we think what's written in the Bible is the sum total of Christianity than we're sadly mistaken. (And many do....) Note the HUGE lack of representation re: women. In those days it was all about the MEN. However Jews are known for being good to the ladies. In the home women ruled the roost, out of the home the men did. D. There are other verses that give me pause, as this one does i.e. Elijah/Elias etc. similar overtones. I'm sure I'll think of more, but that's what I can put down for now. All I know is that I firmly believe God is loving, empathic, and so much more than what we try to box him up as. | ||
| usedtobethere Junior Member Username: usedtobethere Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 209.47.31.7 |
I still believe this scripture for face value (taking literary license with no apologies), "if anyone HURTS OR HARMS CHILDREN, it is better that a GREAT BIG EXTRA HEAVY STONE be hung around their neck", I am counting on that one. The exalted leaders used/use scripture totally out of context (the hate mother, father etc. thing and many more) for their own means (control). They totally misrepresent God/Jesus, SHAME ON THEM. I am sure it makes God very sad to see how He was/is portrayed as mean, hurtful, ready to strike you down the minute you have any independent thinking CONTRARY to that of the leaders. From my sad experience in community, God was dethroned and was no longer the God I had known, COMMUNITY WAS MADE GOD and we worshipped COMMUNITY and COMMUNITY LEADERS (hey, those are idols, oops, somebody goofed). How about this one in the attempt to prohibit a member going to a family funeral, "let the dead bury the dead". Explain that one to me, just how is that done. Also, as if people on the outside in a state of bereavement are really going to pull you away from community. If the communities had not been so afraid of losing their hold over members, they would not have limited contact (many times through disciplinary consequences) with anyone who may have had a mind of their own. Opportunities were never given to compare truth for yourself, members were very sheltered and kept from contact with others who might gender any chance of independant thinking. Even if allowed off site, it was necessary to be accompanied by another member to prohibit infiltration of anything that would conflict with the "teaching" or should I say the "mind control". | ||
| usedtobethere Junior Member Username: usedtobethere Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 209.47.31.7 |
Very good input "laetamini", you really have done some thinking "on the scriptures". I appreciate your insightful post (DIDN'T SEE IT BEFORE POSTING MINE :-) UTBT | ||
| exmonk Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
This is a good forum with good arguements. Bravo Hal, Laetamini and others. Unfortunately it is all one sided. Perhaps because the community administration has instructed all members NOT to dignify our posts with any form of response. In an open public forum, our side would look very strong as everything in community is controlled and monitored and would so look obviously awkward, especially not to have the control to prep and rehearse approved scripts. When outside influences are presented in the community, all heads turn to see what response is warranted by the director. Failure to do so has severe repercussions as Hal so eloquently put it "forbidden independant thinking". Interpretation of the Bible/manuscripts are as morally and polictiaclly motivated as just about anything in this world can be. Each one's personal faith, far out value's any amount of scribling on papyrus and animal hides; as treasured as they are. Perhaps our chanlenges and questions may never be acknowledged by the ones to whom they are addressed or pertain to. But we all bear witness to seeking the truth. That is a worthy effort. My admiration and applause to all who participate here and share their wisdom and views. It has enriched my life further and aided me on my life's journey as others have stated also. I would be interested to hear the opinions of those objective observers who have no association with the these communities to share as well. | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.127.182.233 |
It seems to me that, underlying all of the leaders' errors, are forced interpretations of scriptures. Because something is said once, in one context, doesn't mean it applies universally! Or, to borrow from a somewhat better writer  "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." Jesus also said, "To everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." Most people would interpret this as applying to the spiritual realm. Oddly enough, the leaders seem to apply it to the financial realm! A large part of what makes the leaders powerful is the ability to get the follower to doubt themselves and their own experience of God. Then, the leaders can substitute their own god, a god who, remarkably enough, is an awful lot like them: petty, vindictive, and power-mad. I don't know if this will help you, dream_truth, but when I come across passages like the one you quoted, I say to myself, "I have no idea what this means. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to be used to crush the humanity out of people and allowing them to be manipulated." I realize such a thought would never occur to the leaders. It would require...humility. | ||
| spain New member Username: spain Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 69.204.222.248 |
My training is as a linguist. Translations are always dicey. I recently read a discussion of that "hate your family" verse in a concordance. In Aramaic, the word we translate as "hate" in English, does not mean that in Aramaic - it means to "love less" . So, all Jesus was saying was that we need to love God more than we love anyone else. | ||
| pandersen Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.70.163.173 |
In middle eastern cultures it was and is common to use hyperbole as a way to emphasize things, which were never meant to be applied literally. Like Jesus' exhortation to "cut off your hand and pluck out your eye if they cause you to sin." There are many examples of this in the New Testament. That is why it is so unhelpful to say that everyone should interpret the Bible for themselves. Without the historical context and a balanced pastoral interpretation by leaders interested in the well-being of the faithful, and not in augmenting their own power, Scripture, like any of God's good gifts, can become a weapon instead of a healing salve. | ||
| usedtobethere Junior Member Username: usedtobethere Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 209.47.31.7 |
Thank you "spain" and "panderson", very helpful. Blessings! | ||
| beyondfear Junior Member Username: beyondfear Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.233.118.53 |
All of these points are great, but I don't think any of it's going to convince the community to reconsider much. Here's what I'd like to say: to my family there, I love you and I miss you. Your absence in my life is a terrible loss. I never stop hoping that we will be reunited one day. I know you've been told terrible things about me, but you're missing out on discovering who I really am. I hope and pray that we will be able to come together again in a way never before possible. | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.26.25 |
Well said "beyondfear" and obviously from the heart! I wish this for you and your family also!!! | ||
| samham Junior Member Username: samham Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 199.232.151.1 |
This subject of interpretation reminds me a lot of the Constitution. It can be and has been interpreted and reinterpreted over and over again. With each generation of politically appointed Supreme Court justices, people try over and over to get a new take on the Constitution. It is the same with the Bible, and thus the subtle differences or the changes in use of the scriptures between the current COJ admin, and the past. There are politics in the COJ as sure as there are politics in our government. Why wouldn't they use the scriptures to suit their purpose? The same as the militias use the Constitution (right to bear arms) to support their cause. And the current politicos use the "one man, one women" to justify their opposition to gay marriage. And on and on and on..... The Constitution was also written in a different time period, by land-owning, rich white men. Yet was based the entire formation of our nation on that one document! Hmmmmm....... sound familiar? It's the same as how they interpret the monastic rule that they have written, that changes in it's interpretation all the time. As human beings, we are inherently fallible... the possibilities for error in judgment and interpretation are endless. | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.235.231.170 |
TIME TO START MAKING YOUR OWN DECISIONS!! Do you want your children to be living with the Brothers or would you rather raise them as the Mothers and Fathers you were meant to be? Please don't tell me that Community comes before your own children!! Mothers you should NOT have to look too far in your hearts to find that Motherly LOVE that should be protecting and guiding your sons and daughters! Mothers, put your children and husbands first in your lives and stop with this name change ••••(you are not in the Convent). You were baptized(I imagine, some of you)in front of God with these names. Be proud of them and keep them!! I can't imagine anything coming before or between myself and my children!! Look out if it did!!! My overwhelming thoughts for the day!!! | ||
| exmonk Intermediate Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
I was a brother and young boys came to live with us. I think it is not right for young boys to actually live with the brothers. If a young man wants to see what it is like, that is one thing but to separate young children from their families because the Prioress said so, has the word "CULT" emblazoned all over it. To start conditioning young children so that they will stay in the community is wrong. What kind of problems will they have if they decide to leave when they get older? Parents have the right to say "NO" and they should unless they don't care that in the future that kid is in therapy for emotional problems and hate their parents for letting other people control their lives. | ||
| hightide New member Username: hightide Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 71.235.107.213 |
I didn't really know my parents until about 3 years ago thanks to being separated from them from the age of nine. How is that good? I felt abandoned by them and felt that they never really loved me. Of course in some sense they did abandon me in some sense by allowing me to not live with them. There was coercion however, and it was not entirely their choice so I don't entirely fault them. For about 15 to 20 years though I really didn't know them very well. I still have a hard time relating. Early childhood are the formative years where attachment is formed and is this is screwed with it sets a precedent for life and causes serious problems later in life with relationships, sense of self etc. Read psychology people! Do you really want to mess with nature? Please! Think about the long term effects of what you do with children!!! PLEASE! | ||
| exmonk Intermediate Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
I would like to address the present members of the Commuity of Jesus. First I would like for all of you to consider if you had a vast resource of money. What would your status and participation be with the heirarchy of the community. You may reacieve some special attention from Betty Pugsley and perhaps some influence on the future plans in the building campaigns. And for those of you how are reletively poor. How much status do you have. Are you a figure head to show representaion because of your long standing membership. Are you conciously trying to align your thinking and accepting all of Betty P. ideas as inspired directly from the Holy Spirit. Who and I but a voice crying in the wilderness. I have recently heard all the stories of manipulation of finacial resources of different families and the intense preasure to sqeeze money for the buildig campaigns, excessing titheing and "commitment" levels under scrutiny by the Pugsley regime to fulfill the needs of the extravigant building campaigns. Do you really think this is the perfect will of God or the clever machinations of a woman trying to secure the dreams and intent of building a magnificent complex that will bear her mark or immortality long after she retires or dies. Look at history to see the long epistles of such efforts in history only to eventually fail and cause disolusionment and ruins. She may have convinced you that this edifice of a complex will reflect on you all in the coming centuries. Is there a blantly obvious established organisation of Nepotism. Has she forcasted the end times to scare you all into submission and unity... I only ask you to search your hearts and objectevely question if this witnesses to you on the deepest level beneath the layer of fear you have lived in for years/decades. Many of you have been encouraged or ordered to rebuke blood family members in obedience to the preference of the "community family' who at any moment may turn on you. There is a seed of doubt in each of you. Examine the goodness you reserve in your hearts still untainted by the fearful loyalty to the Pugsley dynasty. When Cynthia died, she vistied me and shared that this madness was misguided. Cynthia never fully bought into the games the "mothers" played. She gladly suffered the flack to remain loyal to what she believed God was asking of her. She is in peace. Cay Adersen is not. She is in turmoil for the scars she inflicted on so many. Her grave stone was blown over and shattered the first time it was erected. Gordon Clark like Cynthia also tried to remain true to what he believed. He too visited me and said as much. I am not crazy or often see spirits prior to ascending to heaven but I do know those two who bid me farewell and shard their convictions. Don't let the misguieded directives of the present administration decieve you into finacial ruin. God will have his way without the manipulative machinations of Betty pugley and and her children. I assure you I have great affection for all of you an your families present and away to fervently seek the mind of God and not take the word of megalo maniacs as gosple. This is my prayer for the well meaning and good people in the community who have the ability and where with all to take the power from the Puglsey dynasty and make a commitee to govern what God has raised up in Rock harbor. Please consider these words and pray. Do not let the world regard you as yet another misguided cult destined for self destruction. Plese for the sake of your children consider their futures, regarding the many lives that have been damaged by thise who left becasue of thir own conviction of the evel wroght by the whim of a single person unchecked, governing supposedly by the direction of the holw spirit... | ||
| exmonk Intermediate Member Username: exmonk Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.163.52.88 |
In the upcoming election, who is being groomed by BP to take over her job? In the rule of life, is there a precedence or provision for any solemn vowed member to nominate a candidate for leadership or do you just vote on who BP puts forward and expected to vote with out review of what the whole body of members would like to debate and discuss. I voted a number of times and felt there was never ample time to reveiw a candidate or submit a name for a candidate. Are the elections still rigged like they were when I was there? Do you feel a slight conviction when BP puts forth limited choices that your voice counts for little and that those in favor are the only voices heard and that you fear dire consequences if you tried to take an active part in the process? I would love to hear what members have to say on this subject. With in the brotherhood after elections there was discent at the way a democratic election was supposed to conducted and the way the CofJ rigged elections that were rushed into policy. I hope and pray the next leader will change the isolation that the community clings too. Old members should not have to feel shunned from long established relationships with the individuals they were close to. That is anti-Christ-like no matter how you slice it. The real cancor here is that each of you members are not trusted to have input or question the direction the group as a whole should take. Wouldn't you like to change that? | ||
| krwg New member Username: krwg Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 76.100.145.120 |
I guess if there is anything I would want most for those still in the community to hear, it is for the children to have hope and know that you deserve to have choices. Please seek us out if you decide to leave, do not try to face the world alone there are resources and people available to help you transition and start a new life if you choose. It was primarily lack of resources and support that made my transition so hard. I will do whatever I can to help you find the resources you need so that it will not have to be as hard for you. You deserve to have Love, Life and Freedom. WELL SAID DT - and AMEN!!! | ||
| krwg New member Username: krwg Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 76.100.145.120 |
A few of my own: 1. People are people. We are all human. If weren't sinners there would be no need for Jesus. 2. God does not only exist at the community. YOu are a measly 300-400 group of people in this WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD - and to think and act like - He is only around the CofJ and nobody outside that is ridiculous (I actually had a member tell that they believed anyone away from the community was running from GOD). 3. Breaking apart families is not Godly. Children should live with their parents PERIOD. 4. BP or MB does not know everything - and is not always right. She is human too (big surprise to her maybe). 5. Not allowing family to visit family who still live in the CofJ or GCC is not healthy or christian like. 6. I would like my family in the community to know that we love them and that we always will, no matter if they stay in the community or leave at some point. We just continue to pray for peace and reconciliation, and we are trying to leave the rest in God's hands. We do miss you terribly and we hurt to see you hurting and feeling so poorly about yourselves. (stolen from Maxie - because you said it better than I ever could!) 7. Dont be so afraid of education - are you that scared of people being taught something outside of the CofJ - i mean seriously -t hat should be a red flag right there. that is all i can think of for now but I am sure there are others. oh one more; If any you ever need a safe place to go - look me up! | ||
| kmiller1610 New member Username: kmiller1610 Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 71.234.237.105 |
Lots to read here. Of course I'm reading all this and remembering my time at the COJ in 1979. If I remember correctly Betty Pugsley was married to the choir director. Funny how things change. She was a very sentimental, harmless lady who loved broadway shows and was confronted for being too much in love with the romanticism of broadway show music. I certainly never saw her as an authority figure. I would add this to the discussion. There may be too much emphasis on cult vs non-cult here. If you belong to ANY church or group where the leaders are charismatic and are not subject to peer review and do not submit to the authority of a larger body of some kind, beware. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Imans of the middle east have the same problem. So do some of the televaneglists who basically run little feudal kingdoms. Your relationship with Christ is between you and God. When you involve that relationship with any authority figure who thinks that they can monkey around with it, you might want to think about going somewhere else. | ||
| krwg New member Username: krwg Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 76.100.145.120 |
BP is in charge of the entire Community. RP is in charge of the band among other things I am sure. WP is now in charege of Gloriae Dei Artes. LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE people. This is not healthy to have one family in charge of so much! | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.71.44 |
I imagine someone from the CoJ reading this and being confused. Here, they hear one story about an abusive cult; there, they hear another story about the call of God and his plans. Who are they to believe? One way out of this dilemna--a common way, I imagine--is an application of Pascal's Wager. Blaise Pascal, the genius French mathematican and philosopher, once wrote that one ought to believe in God--even if one were not fully convinced of the truth of his existence. Why? Consider the options and their consequences. If believers are wrong, their faith "costs" them nothing: no ill consequences attend to their error. But if non-believers are wrong, their lack of belief will (in the traditional interpretation) cost them everything. So, reasoned Pascal, the smart bet is on God. So, let's imagine things from a CoJ member. Maybe the people on FACTNet are right; maybe they're wrong. But the safe bet is on the CoJ since if the CoJ is right, and they oppose it, there will be hell to pay (pun intended). But there's something I find terribly wrong with Pascal's logic: it leaves out the nature of God. I fully accept that I am a sinner, a rebel against God. I fully accept that God has an absolute right to judge and punish me. And no amount of arcane reasoning or logical trickery is going to save me. But, for Christians, this is NOT the truth--or not the full truth--about God. God knows us for who we are--knows us far better than we know ourselves. And yet he loves us. Not in a disinterested or abstract way, but in a personal, passionate, mad-about-us way. He knows that we are lost without him. And so it is he that must undertake to save us and to draw us to him. He knows that the self that rebels against him is the very thing that makes us unhappy. He knows that only our having a renewed heart and mind can make us whole and well. He knows that this means change for us. And he knows that change--even good change--is stressful on us. So far, the CoJ would agree with most of this. But there is a great difference between how God works and how the CoJ works. God draws us, inspires us, woos us to himself. He pulls. The Community threatens, frightens, and terrorizes. They push. I sometimes think that the reason I fell for the CoJ heresy is that I didn't take my sinfulness seriously enough. I didn't realize the enormous wickedness in my own heart that keeps me from God. Instead, I was drawn to a teaching that, while paying lip service to the need for God to change my heart, demanded that I better get with the program--and that pretty quickly. That's what the disciplines, the light sessions, the atmosphere of fear is about: it's to try to force people into conformity. But God will have none of that. With all of his power (I'm speaking to Christians, now), he refuses to bludgeon or frighten people into submission. The scriptures tell us this over and over. I would recommend that anyone struggling with these questions ask themselves if the Community gets its power from its attractive force or from manipulating fear in its members. Jesus attracts. Even in our darkened states, we can see there is something wonderful about him. Sinful as we are, something in us responds and wants to be closer to him. God holds him up to us as a beacon and a promise: You, too, are children of God if you will only trust me. Is this your experience of the Community? Or is it, like mine was, one of hierarchies, of some that are "in" while others are "out" (and, how quickly those rankings can change!), of people cowering lest they be "blasted" by others, or put on disciplines, or be the subject of light sessions? | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.71.44 |
[cont'd] God does not traffic in terror. Those who do and who say they represent him lie. Terror can include despicable acts of killing (as we are only too familiar with). But it also includes those smaller, more personal acts of making others doubt their standing with God. Or of making others afraid to truly live lest they, in some way, invoke the wrath of God. I think a good deal about Jesus' parable of the talents. My life at the Community was akin to the servant who was given only a single talent. When his master asked for an accounting, the servant pleaded fear as the reason he did nothing. Jesus makes it clear that the servant chose wrongly. Staying aligned with the Community was, for me, that act of fear. (Maybe they're right--and then where will I be?) But fear is the very opposite of faith. My fear kept me from faith. My fear kept me bound to an oppressive institution that used the name of Jesus but knew little of his heart. That fear was sin and it kept me from God. I hope that if any CoJ members do read this, they will quietly ask themselves why the Community is so different in its approach from God. Why do they need hierarchies and force and terror to enforce their will when God himself eschews such bullying? | ||
| bonnieb New member Username: bonnieb Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 67.138.43.209 |
Hal, so beautifully written...and so true. So many of my memories of my time at the CoJ started to surface after having my son. I've thought about this a lot...why now...20 years later...do I remember the horrors that I went through at the CofJ? One thought comes to mind. As a mother, I now know about deep, true, passionate, mad about you love. What I feel for my son is so amazing. Does he tick me off? Well, he's 3 years old...so, you bet ya! But even when I'm mad at his actions, my love remains constant. Because of that love, I would NEVER do anything to hurt him. Sometimes that means picking him up and holding him when he has fallen. Other times it means putting stern boundaries in place to keep him from running out in front of a car. But the love...that intertwines through it all. And I think that for the first time I really know what love is. And now I understand the love that God has for us. We're His children. He created us, on purpose, because He wants to hang out with us. How amazing is that!!!! And just like we call our children over and put them on our laps and hold them, so God does with us. Does he set boundaries in our lives sometimes to keep us from getting hurt? Absolutely! But just like we cheer our children's successes and encourage them in every way to reach their full potential, so God does with us. That's NOT idolatry as was drilled into us at the CofJ. God would be unable to be idolatrous since he is without sin. But if we know the love we feel for our children, and if God is truly our Father, how much greater must His love be for us. Not a punishing, beating down, destroying of the essence of our personhood but a pulling up and encouraging love. I think about the CofJ's philosphophy of how wrong we all are...how that was beaten into our heads...how the way to attain approval was to debase ourselves...how we would always be horrible sinners always wrong and always wrapped in our sins. And then I think back to my one, very wayward thought that I had while at the CofJ in my teens...I thought of 2 Corinthians 5:17 - 19 "So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." How could all of us be so wrong all the time and be constantly in sin, battling sin, if we are all new creatures in Christ? If He is not counting our sins against us but entrusting to us the message of reconciliation, and if we are not counting the sins of our children against them, then the entire theology of the CofJ is wrong. Think about that. Think about God's love for you...His child...and how How he died to make you NEW and how He takes your sins and throws them into the lake and hangs up a sign that says "no fishing". If that's how He views us, why do we allow others to tell us differently? Just think about it. | ||
| halhelms New member Username: halhelms Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.185.71.44 |
I think, too, that for many long-time Community members, seeing things in a new light is just too costly. They have so much invested in the Community being what it purports to be. If, after so long, the Community turns out to be yet another power-driven cult, then what? What of the time they have spent? Was it all wasted? For me, leaving the Community was one of the hardest things I did. There was great pain--the pain of losing my parents, of losing security (such as it was), of losing good, close friends, and the terrible fear of losing God. I think many in the Community are aware of some of the bad aspects of it: the nepotism, the hierarchies, the oppression. But if they start down the road of criticizing--even of questioning--the status quo, the great fear is the loss of so much. Perhaps many can see that the Community practice is to (almost) always side with the powerful, to consistently support "the leaders". And perhaps, too, they are aware that this is the opposite of what Jesus did when he was on this earth. He was a scandal and an outrage because he sided with the poor, the sinful, the outcast. It may well be that many see all this--and yet remain in the deadly embrace of the Community for fear of what separation from it might mean. For me, that separation did involve pain. But, lately, I've come to understand that pain is NOT the ultimate evil. I've found that God used the pain I went through to deepen me in compassion and kindness for others; he's done something in me that I'm not sure I could have experienced without that pain and I'm deeply, deeply grateful for that. No, pain isn't enjoyable, but it can be beneficial. And something far worse than pain is the living death that occurs when people are stuck, unable to grow, unable to learn. That sounds like a good description of hell. That, for me, was life in the Community. Yes, there were wonderful aspects of the Community. For me, there was music and woodworking. But I watched what was happening to myself and to others--to the rigor of death that was creeping throughout the life of the Community--and I knew I had to leave to save my true life. | ||
| cryfreedom New member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.27.60 |
VERY WELL SAID!! Unfortunately I do not write as eloquently and have to lay it out pretty bluntly. I realize that so many of the younger generation have left the CofJ. I'm sure it was hard for them but they faced the fear and DID IT!! There are many still living at the CofJ who are middle age(lets say in the late 30'S to early 40's). Come on you guys can you not see what has been so clearly layed out for you here on this site. Have some back bone. You are "big" now and can make your own damn decisions. Face the fear of moving out on your own, except responsibility for yourselves(and what children you have). Trust me you will be providing them with a much healthier lifestyle OUTSIDE of the CofJ!! God, is the music, the outragious Chapel,and the security keeping you there? You can create security, and love and be involved in music on the outside also! Sorry if I ramble on. I just get so frustrated that some of you(not mentioning any names)can't see the truth for what it is but those 10 to 15 years younger then you could see the truth and had the balls to move on in their lives!!! See the truth and make some decisions on YOUR OWN FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIVES!!! Concerned in Canada!!! p.s-----And we know you are reading this site so once again have some backbone and respond to those how have posted directly to you. Or has that been forbidden??? | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.27.60 |
HELLO FRIENDS--Funny I posted this in mid June and still see that no CofJ members have responded. Come on, you can do it!! I was on the Cape last month. It was actually wonderful to be on the Cape(love it there-----the salt air, the houses------just have always loved the Cape). But I was appauled at how some members of the CofJ can still continue to treat some people who have left. If someone has been gone for over 7 years and moved on it their live then isn't it time to be a CHRISTIAN and except them for who they are and treat them with some love and respect?!! How narrow minded can you remain to think that just because someone has left and is leading a different lifestyle that they are no longer in "God's will" . Have you not even considered that these people may have an even deeper relationship with God now then they did living at the CofJ. Just please open your eyes and treat others with the love and respect that they deserve!!! | ||
| cryfreedom Junior Member Username: cryfreedom Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.226.27.60 |
HELLO FRIENDS--Funny I posted this in mid June and still see that no CofJ members have responded. Come on, you can do it!! I was on the Cape last month. It was actually wonderful to be on the Cape(love it there-----the salt air, the houses------just have always loved the Cape). But I was appauled at how some members of the CofJ can still continue to treat some people who have left. If someone has been gone for over 7 years and moved on it their live then isn't it time to be a CHRISTIAN and except them for who they are and treat them with some love and respect?!! How narrow minded can you remain to think that just because someone has left and is leading a different lifestyle that they are no longer in "God's will" . Have you not even considered that these people may have an even deeper relationship with God now then they did living at the CofJ. Just please open your eyes and treat others with the love and respect that they deserve!!! | ||
| westcedar1 New member Username: westcedar1 Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 12.45.228.13 |
Sorry to hear of the following: ORLEANS - Steven B. "Buzz" Elmer, 82, of Orleans, died Sept. 16, 2007, at Cape Cod Hospital, surrounded by his loving family Chris J | ||
| 87expellee Junior Member Username: 87expellee Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 66.78.123.203 |
WOW... unbelievable !!! I was researching that very household just the other day. | ||
| lightsout Junior Member Username: lightsout Post Number: 44 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 76.100.142.73 |
I hope you are all reading the articles that are in the papers locally to the CofJ and in Canada. I hope you realize if you are encouraged not to read them (as I am sure you are) that is because BP is afraid that you all will actually wake up and maybe see things for what they are. |
