| Author | Message | ||
     bluewater2 Advanced Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 800 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Kenneth Copeland and others like him are alot smarter than the knuckleheads who keep giving them money. My hope is that their private jets get hit my simultainious bolts of lightning while they are flying over a volcano. Anyone stupid enough to continue to give these people money deserves not to have it. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1186 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
AMEN!!! Copeland was one of the first "faith Healers" my mother use to support-he's a real sleeze!!!! (Message edited by rachelengland on May 12, 2006) | ||
| bluewater2 Advanced Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 802 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
They give Jesus a bad name. | ||
| bluewater2 Advanced Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 803 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Where do people like these televangelists, expecially the ones that "normal" Christians can't stand, get their following? They just seem so transparently B.S. to me. Don't they see it? | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 495 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
Where do people like these televangelists, expecially the ones that "normal" Christians can't stand, get their following? TELEVANGELIST INVESTIGATIONS By Ole Anthony President, Trinity Foundation, Inc. http://www.trinityfi.org/trinity/investi.html "Trinity Foundation has been monitoring the activities of these "men of God" since 1973. For the first 15 years, our efforts were mostly concerned with analysis of the listening audience and its demographic makeup, the doctrinal positions of the broadcasters and the percentage of broadcast time they devoted to raising money. ..... We found these TV and radio evangelists are vying for a donor pool of about five million people. Fifty-five percent of these people are elderly women. Another 35 percent is made up of what we call the desperation pool. These are the poorest and neediest members of society.-- those whose child has AIDS, whose spouse has cancer, those about to be homeless, those who are experiencing the worst kinds of suffering. Some are so needy that they often send in their food stamps or their wedding rings. The remaining 10 percent are those who might be classified as upper-middle class, who want a spiritual justification for their greed." | ||
| formercultist New member Username: formercultist Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.1.226.53 |
But who's watching the watchdog? Read the new book on Ole Anthony's Trinity Foundation. Information on I Can't Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult can be found at www.dallascult.com (Message edited by formercultist on May 28, 2006) | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
Yeah, I saw that earlier but didn't want to waste my time getting into it with Marta... The cut and pasters will use anything to make their points, although I must admit the percentages Marta quoted are eye-opening - if they are accurate. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 506 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
I don't know much about Ole Anthony's current troubles, and I honestly don't know how accurate the figures are in the Trinity Foundation report, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that a large number of the people sending in donations to televangelists are older women. And considering the way a lot of televagelists ask for offerings (telling people to give even if they think they can't afford it, promising that God will respond if they are obedient and send in a donation, etc.) it wouldn't surprise me to find out a large number are in desperate circumstances. A while ago, ther was a news story about Robert Tilton which told about prayer requests that were found in dumpsters. Here's a link to the story (which is hosted on the Trinity Foundation's website). But, if true, I think is very eye-opening as well ... From the Tulsa World Robert Tilton: From downfall to windfall: Living on a prayer By ZIVA BRANSTETTER World Projects Editor 5/4/2003 "You cannot help but read them," she said. "All these letters were like, 'Pray for me,' because they were terminal or their son is terminal or there was no money for food . . . desperate situations." "She said nearly all of the letters she opened were from rural Florida or rural Georgia and they often contained cash in odd amounts." http://www.trinityfi.org/press/tulsaworld02.html | ||
| redeemed4life Intermediate Member Username: redeemed4life Post Number: 166 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 12.34.246.35 |
I think these people that follow these hucksters are people who either do not take time to read the Word of God for themselves and therefore do not recognize the lies they are being fed as manipulation to line these minister's pockets, or they are people who are so desperate (and sometimes lazy)that they will try whatever means necessary to make themselves feel better, get rich quick or to get acceptance and approval from man because they are so insecure and they want their need met NOW!! Alot, not all, but a lot of these people have a motive and it is not a pure heart. They want to have their ears tickled, and told they can have whatever they want and life will be grand and they wont have to do much for it. How can I say things like this you may ask.........I used to be one of them. I wanted a quick fix to all life's problems, I wanted to be rich and I wanted acceptance and approval from man, I wanted to belong and I listened to their messages and thought that I could buy all of that from God and call it a love offering (and not to mention I justified it by saying I was building God's Kingdom)and it all made me feel like someone important. Of course it didnt take me long to become broke busted and disgusted!! | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 192 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
Hi Redeemed... I agree wholeheartedly with your comment. My mother used to follow these hucksters and when I got of age, I warned her about them. Then, many years later I got caught up in the same racket. It only took me a few months of listening carefully and also comparing what they were saying to scripture to find out how bogus these people are. I pray that God opens the eyes of the people who follow these so-called ministers. | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 348 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
They are both not wise. They will reap what they sow and those subsidizing will reap nothing bad stewards of throwing Gods given money down a money lust pit. MATCHING JETS FOR GLORIA: Copeland’s latest scheme to remove money from his partners bank accounts are NOW 2 JETS NOT ONE. You could fly everday 365 days a year everyday until you are 80 years old, starting ministry at 25 years old(or the rest of your life) and spend only (8)eight million dollars sepent over a lifetime on a commercial airline. Thats flying EVERYDAY 365 days a year for 35 years! Which he doesnt. Copeland only has 12 dates a year, and a few of those are local near his home. Copeland averages only having 12 meeting places to fly a year, or about one per month according to his past records and his recent website itinerary. That means for 12 x $500 airfare X 2 for he and Gloria only cost $1,000 per month. That's only having to spend $12,000 per year that they would spend. Copeland spends that much in jet fuel with his private jets on just one round trip flight. This is just plain lunacy gone to seed times 10 to the 100th power.... . His two new planes cost $20 million dollars each. He just spent $40 million on these extravagant useless status symbol airplanes. (And for all that money he still can't even carry his equipment and crew on this small jet). Click the link to his website and view his lunatic arrogant purchase. http://www.elitecxteam.org/ http://www.kcm.org/ Kenneth Copeland Airport http://www.airnav.com/airport/4T2 You see the Copeland have decided that they need not 1 but 2 new aircraft. And not just any old airplane either, No sir what brother Copeland needs is a new Cessna Citation X. Oops, sorry I mean 2 new Cessna Citation X’s. His and hers! The Cessna Citation X - Price – around $20,000,000 each. That’s twenty m-i-l-l-i-o-n dollars each! $40,000,000. On his website Copeland spreads his propaganda lies as he explains that it’s all about souls. ”It's All About Souls.... he says, but that is just a talk smokescreen without results. Copelands low rated television shows all air on Christian stations. Non believers don't go to church and they don't watch Christian programs. That is just the facts. They don't watch OLD FARTS like Copeland, zoot suited fools like Creflo, and all the other deceiving crooks. WGN is at a bad time of 6:30 am and doesn't even show up in the ratings. Very few if any non-believers watch. That's why for all the millions spent he gets very few salvations from his tv and meetings as a result. Nielsen rating systems prove the show and others like his get few people watching. This is not fulfilling the great commission to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" This is scamming and fleecing the flock into believing and perpetuating the lie. Demand proof of how many souls are saved. You will never get proof for the same reason he won't give you an audited financial statement. He's hiding the truth. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 111 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
Great post TRS, tremendous NEW info. You really hit a home run this time. How old of an "OLD FART" is Copeland? | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 507 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
redeemed4life, I agree that there are people who follow these false teachers simply because they are too lazy or too stupid to read the Word for themselves to find out what God says, BUT .... You need to recognize that when a person first gets saved they don't have the understanding that comes with studying the Word on a daily basis over a period of time. There is a learning curve as they start reading the Word and comparing it with what they are being taught. Once they are familiar with what is true, it's a lot more difficult for them to be fooled. There also are a number of people who are in desperate circumstances. When a person is desperate they often are willing to believe things they wouldn't otherwise believe, simply because they are grasping for answers to their problems. I agree we all need to take responsibility for the part we play in allowing ourselves to be deceived (myself included), but I believe that the one who does the deceiving has the greater sin. These people often cause good people who trust in God to lose faith because of their lies ... Matthew 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around the neck. | ||
| redeemed4life Intermediate Member Username: redeemed4life Post Number: 169 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 4.253.71.190 |
marta well said and I totally agree! | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 193 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
How do we reach out to these people? I understand that they must read the Bible and get an understanding for themselves. owever, isn't it our responsibility to encourage them to do so and to assist in any way possible. Most of them totally depend and rely on what the minister/pastor is telling them, not realizing that in many cases that the word is being twisted and manipulated for their own purposes. How do we reach these people WITHOUT discouraging them? Some of these people DO need the Bible as a roadmap, even though many use it as a crutch. What is our responsibility? | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 117 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
GSRH You start threads on Factnet and just start bashing... that's usually most effective. Copy and paste some of TRS and Infoman's writings, make them your own. Develop a doctrine whereby it is your responsibility to set people straight. Put a lot of scriptures in every post. Decide that you know more about the Word than others. Become convinced that ALL WOF ministers are evil. These things have been serving many very well on Factnet for several years.  | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 194 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
I will note your suggestions! | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 119 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
Thank you gsrh, it is good to be noted. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 508 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
Or you can just continue to speak the truth and ignore the mockers. ROMANS 12:9 Don't just pretend that you love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Stand on the side of the good. PSALM 97:10 You who love the LORD, hate evil! He protects the lives of his godly people and rescues them from the power of the wicked. | ||
| redeemed4life Intermediate Member Username: redeemed4life Post Number: 173 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 4.252.245.176 |
Some great suggestions there guys!! I do believe that in time God will show them. Atleast that is what He did with me. I was all tangled up in the WOF mess and my views of God and Christianity were all twisted and eventually God destroyed everything in my life that was not in line with His Word. He began to open my eyes and show me where the deception was. As a new convert to Christianity I was so grateful for what God had done for me by sending his Son to die for me that I began to build a relationship with Him through prayer. One thing I can say about WOF preachers is they stress "PRAY AND ASK GOD FOR WHAT YOU HEART DESIRES" and my heart desired a relationship with God and His TRUTH and that is what I got. Also in the midst of all this I was not getting the material things that I had prayed and asked for like the WOF preachers said I would and that was just added confirmation that they were full of crap. We can pray for them and continue to speak the truth. Just because they dont change overnite doesnt mean the seed isnt planted. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 509 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
amen redeemed4life | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.255.7.30 |
Amen and AMEN redeemed4life. I especially liked some of my ideas. Marta had a real good idea there about ignoring the mockers. Tough to do though, you see a post and it just makes you want to put up some scriptures just to let them know what God thinks of them, you know what I'm saying? One time, in grammar school, we had to choose a memory verse. On the day of the test, I stood and recited "Jesus wept". Cheating or just simply shrewd? If you think this is shrewd, then I would humbly suggest that I am smarter than Bro. Copeland. If you think cheating, then perhaps you're right - he is probably smarter than his "followers". | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 510 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
I consider posting scripture to be speaking the truth, since all scripture is truth. If I post scripture and someone reads it and gets a revelation ... that's God, not me. Now, when I say I believe in ignoring mockers, I'm talking about resisting the urge to respond to sacastic comments in a like manner. That's tough because it means I have to try and control my flesh. Know what I mean? Have a good night getagrip. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 2122 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.10 |
i have found that if i just take GOD at HIS WORD. HE will help me. i have received miracales from THE LORD both physicly and materially, but not because i gave anyhing to this kind of preachers. when i paid my tithes and gave offerings to my church and then if i had any to others preachers too GOD lways blesed me and never let me go lacking. when GOD told me to give elsewhere and i did HE laways blessed me. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.255.7.30 |
Yes, Marta I know what you mean. I did have a good night, went to dinner with a friend from Barbados in Orlando FL. Thank you. I misunderstood. When you said "ignoring" mockers, I thought you meant "ignore". When you say "ignore", you mean more like "not ignoring" but posting scriptures to let them know what God thinks of them and their devilish sarcasm and making sure you are not sarcastic yourself becuase you are responding but not sarcastically by way of ignoring them. I understand now. Thank you for the clarification! Have a great day Marta, I love cubicles... I am all for them!!! | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 511 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.201.145.107 |
No, you got it right ... ignore. ignore - give little or no attention to. Keep speaking the truth (post scripture) and ignore the mockers (give little or no attention to their sarcastic comments). Like I said, I'm often tempted to respond in kind but that's just the flesh. I think it's much better to post a few scriptures. Those who love God love His Word and don't mind ... and the others, well as redeemed4life said, one can only hope that a seed will be planted if the soil is not too rocky or hard to receive it. Be blessed. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 126 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.255.7.30 |
I am empowered to prosper (as are you), as you suggest with your comment "be blessed". Thank you and have a great day in the Lord. Hope you had a good breakfast to start the day right, with fruit, dairy and Kellogg's products where applicable. I think you're right about posting scriptures, much better. Okay gotta get to work great talking with you go get'em tiger, etc. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 127 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.255.7.30 |
CS Lewis said that sarcasm was the lowest and most base type of humor and he is probably fairly accurate in that assessment. Sure is funny when it's done well however.... | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 128 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.255.7.30 |
Also, please note that I see things daily on the FHC thread that only by the Love of Christ am I constrained, so I understand your comments regarding flesh control better than you might imagine. Although I must admit when it comes to IM/U1/TRS and their imaginary minions, I often go into money changer/table turner mode... Be blessed yourself, nice chatting again. | ||
| redeemed4life Intermediate Member Username: redeemed4life Post Number: 175 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 4.252.243.45 |
getagrip-I always look forward to readin' your posts. You make me smile. I think it is your candid sense of humor...  | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 353 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
What is most important to these is evidenced in the their usage of money. Too many of these frauds value owning STATUS things over reaching people. Their love is in money not for people. Matthew 6:19-21 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." This was so good it was worth posting again. "Woke up this morning, turned on the TV set; There in living color was something I won't forget. This man was preachin' at me, yeah, layin' on the charm, askin' me for twenty, with ten thousand on his arm. He wore designer clothing and a big smile on his face, sellin' me salvation with they sang Amazin' Grace. Askin' me for money, when he had all the signs of wealth. Almost wrote a check out, yeah, then I asked myself: Would he wear a pinky ring, would he drive a fancy car, would his wife wear fur and diamonds, would his dressing room have a star? If he came back tomorrow, there's something I'd like to know: Would Jesus Wear a Rolex on his television show? Would Jesus be political, if he came back to earth? Have his second home in Palm Springs, yeah, try to hide his worth? Take money from those poor folks if he came back again, and admit he's talked to all them preachers that say they've been a talkin' to Him! Just ask yourself: Would he wear a pinky ring, would he drive a fancy car, would wife wear fur and diamonds, would his dressing room have a starrrrr, If came back tomorrow, wooh, there somethin' I'd like to know, would Jesus wear a Rolex on his television show?" Lyrics: Ray Stevens Luke 16:10 "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Subsidizing these frauds without knowing how the money is spent and results yielded is just as bad as these frauds using the donations for their Rolex's, airplanes, luxury fleet of cars, mansions, $5,000 suits, exotic animals, etc.. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 136 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.255.7.30 |
Thank you R4L... there is much to make light of on factnet, although there are some very serious issues that are dealt with here to be certain. | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 335 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 198.243.2.253 |
Yes, there are millions of nervous and emotionally disturbed christians. When they hear the conniving messages like "You are Gods", they get some emotional uplifting. This is then translated into giving for the sake of satisfaction of having given. Unfortunately, they miss the blessing of giving. I have talked to many of his supporters. They get very upset if you question their devotion to this "CONMAN". His wife (Gloria) is another con woman who with her husband are very good at mesmerizing people. it is very sad that people do not discern the good from the bad: right from wrong because, they are not followers of Christ, but, they are the followers of Copeland. When I look at these people including Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Marilyn Hickey,they are not real people. There is deceit in their very looks as well as smiles. Yes, in the last days we must expect all these false teachers preaching another Gospel. | ||
| anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.65.183.68 |
I have a neighbor who reads the Bible every day, always talks about 'God' and is an avid Copeland and other WoFer's supporter. When I pointed something out in their teaching that it is not scriptural, I must have caught her off guard. She quickly and defensively retorted, I don't care, It makes me feel good. That's actually what she said. So some don't care if it is false teaching. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
And some of us do care. I wouldn't have responded like that, and I am a WOF person. | ||
| getagrip Intermediate Member Username: getagrip Post Number: 169 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.251.104.149 |
I'm with you jbkrems. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 792 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.101.217.33 |
JBKREMS: Copelands and all the TV evengelists except Drs,Stnley, Kennedy and Jeremiah are conartists and Psychics, who have learnt those BUZZ words that will mesmerize those widows, older people,and those who live on social security with limited incomes, emotionally disturbed immature believers, those who do not have sound doctrine,and those who are not grounded in scripture to give money when they cannot afford. Because, they have to buy fuel for their jet planes!!!!!! Paul Crouch has been caught in homosexual acts and has bribed the victim to silence him. Well, God's judgement is coming on all these FALSE TEACHERS.The prophet said,"WOE TO TO THOSE WHO DEVOUR WIDOWS AND THE MEEK". Yes, judgement came upon Swaggart, BAker Tilton and Haggart. If Copelands do not repent of their sins and get right with God and men, they will also be judged. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 283 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.167.217 |
Inkorrekt: Why should we listen to your garbage? You have not outlined ANY sins that the Copelands are guilty of? Since when has God made you the judge of those you do not know personally? Do you have any SOLID proof of your accusations? If you wrongly judge men, do you know that God also considers that a sin??? | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 4858 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.132.239 |
"You don't have a god in you, you are one." "Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in Myself. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." "I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" "God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never thought that is because He never said He was one". "God is a being that stands somewhere around 6'2", 6'3." the earth we live on is a "copy of the mother planet" "Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself. He [Adam] was not a little like God, he was not almost like God, He was not subordinate to God even. Adam is God manifested in the flesh" "Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you're God. The more you get to be like Me, the more they're going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah. That's what you're doing." "And the whole New Testament calls Him the first-born....The word "born" began to ring in my spirit; it just began to roll around: born, born. I never had let Him go through that in my own thinking....And while I was laying there thinking about these things, the Spirit of God spoke to me. And He said, "Son, realize this: Now follow Me in this, don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: A twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I threw my Bible down. I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan. The first-born of many brethren defeated him." He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness gracious, sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, "You don't mean--you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?" He said, "Oh, yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man, too." "You don't have a god in you, you are one." "I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is…The biggest one in the whole Bible is God…Now, the reason you don’t think of God as a failure is He never said He’s a failure. And you’re not a failure till you say you’re one." "Adam committed high treason; and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given to him was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in…After Adam’s fall, God found Himself in a peculiar position…God needed an avenue back into the earth…God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to God..Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself." | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 4859 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.132.239 |
"God’s on the outside looking in. He doesn’t have any legal entree into the earth. The thing don’t belong to Him. You see how sassy the Devil was in the presence of God in the book of Job? God said, Where have you been? Wasn’t any of God’s business. He [Satan] didn’t even have to answer if he didn’t want to ..God didn’t argue with him a bit! You see, this is the position that God’s been in…Might say, ‘Well, if God’s running things He’s doing a lousy job of it." He hadn’t been running ‘em, except when He’s just got, you know, a little bit of a chance." "The Bible says that God gave this earth to the sons of men…and when [Adam] turned and gave that dominion to Satan, look where it left God. If left Him on the outside looking in…He had no legal right to do anything about it, did He?…He had injected Himself illegally into the earth—what Satan had intended for Him to do was to fall for it—pull off an illegal act and turn the light off in God, and subordinate God to himself…He intended to get God into such a trap that He couldn’t get out." "[Adam] was the copy, looked just like [God]. If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike. If yo stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and sound exactly alike." "What does God have to pay the price for this thing? He has to have a man that is like that first one. It’s got to be a man. He’s got to be all man. He cannot be a God and come storming in here will attributes and dignities that are not common to man. He can’t do that. It’s not legal." "Here’s where we’re gonna depart from ordinary church: Now, you see, God is injecting His Word into the earth to produce this Jesus—these faith-filled words that framed the image that’s in Him…He can’t just walk onto the earth and say, "Let it be!" because He doesn’t have the right. He had to sneak it in here around the god of this world that was blockin’ every way that he possibly could." "God was making promises to Jesus, and Jesus wasn’t even there. But, you see, God deals with things that are not yet as though they already were. That’s the way He gets them to come to pass." "The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don’t know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there—the sign of Satan? Why didn’t you put a lamb on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted, in My own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off." "When Jesus cried, ‘It is finished!’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne…Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption." "In hell He [Jesus] suffered for you and for me. The Bible says hell was made for Satan and his angles. It was not made for men. Satan was holding the Son of God there illegally…The trap was set for Satan and Jesus was the bait." "The Devil forgot to take into consideration that Jesus hadn’t sinned Himself but, rather, had merely become sin as a result of the sin of others." | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 4860 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.132.239 |
How about the sins of BLASPHEMY, HERESY! Here are some more quotes of the Heretic and Blasphemer Ken Copeland! "That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles…Jesus was born again—the first-born from the dead." "The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, ‘Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.’ He said, ‘Think this way—a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.’ And I threw my Bible down…like that. I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.’ He said, ‘You are the very image, the very copy of that one.’ I said, ‘Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could’ve done the same thing, ‘cause you’re a reborn man too." We are bound by God's word to expose Blasphemers and Heretics! That is not judging. That is doing God's will. Copeland is a blasphemer and heretic! All those who follow him are not Christians for they follow the father of lies, satan! There, I've said it. Are you going to cyberbully and cyberstalk me like gag tried to? | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2574 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.71 |
inkorrect and franklin-that was awesome! Have a great Sunday! | ||
| anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 288 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.65.24.180 |
dang... God blew it again. He didn't wait for Copeland to write the Bible. But that's ok. Sir god Kenny is busy now making all the necessary corrections. This man is a goofy heresies junkie if there ever was one - anything out of the garden and babylon makes him a very happy man, er...god. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 795 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.133.241 |
JBKREMS: 1) It is nothing but blasphemy that we are GODS. We were made in the image of God. But we are not Gods. Do you know how ministry is to be carried out? Gospel is free. Salvation is a free gift. This being marketed by all these TV evangelists for buying their JET PLANES. Apostle paul made tents for his living. Why do these men need million dollar homes? 2) I HAVE WATCHED COPLAND. There is no substance. It is so boring. All that he can talk about is FAITH and nothing else. Looking at his face tells me that soemthing is wrong with him. If you have the holy spirit, you will DISCERN Right from Wrong and GOOD from EVIl. We are all commanded to do this. This has nothing to do with judgements. God is the only judge and we are not called to JUDGE another one. But, We have been commanded To DISCERN. Where is your discernment? If you have this gift, you will stop supporting these Charlatans. I feel sorry for you and your kind of Blind Sheep. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 4868 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.132.239 |
Good post inkorrect! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 284 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.167.217 |
Inkorrekt: #1: It depends on how you define "gods." If you mean deity, then yes, but that is not what Copeland meant. Copeland meant that we are created in God's image, and we have capacity and authority to rule on God's behalf. In other words, we have dominion as a representative of God. There is also Scripture for that, look at John 10 and Psalm 82. You're right, the gospel is free and salvation is a free gift. But Ken Coepland does not market the gospel. He does sell tapes and books to benefit those who are already Christians. The fact is such tapes and books cost money to produce. Even my own church sells CD's of each service for $5.00 each to cover the costs. Yes, Apostle Paul was a tentmaker --- but he also had to raise missionary support from the churches who received him as an apostle, to support his ministry. As for the million dollar homes, do you complain that Trump lives in a mansion? #2: I used to say that about Copeland. Of course, I don't say that anymore. There IS substance there --- you need to listen more carefully, and watch more carefully. I don't watch him everyday. Sometimes the topic he (or whoever is on instead of him --- his guest) is not interesting to me (for instance, if they are doing ladies issues). But his message IS faith. How is that boring? The Bible says without faith we cannot please God, did you know that, inkorrekt? I agree that God is the judge, but the Bible does say that we are to, in a way, judge one another, and we are ALSO to judge ourselves. By "judging one another" I am speaking to addressing disputes within congregations, and by "judging one another" I am speaking to examining our own lives and letting the Holy Spirit reveal what's right and wrong, and where we've sinned and gone wrong. Lastly, I don't support Copeland, financially. I'm not a partner. I do not give a cent, it is not in my budget. Perhaps some day I will, but not today. | ||
| oneway New member Username: oneway Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.16.59.189 |
We also need to put some of this blame on the followers of people such as Copeland. Some christians, if they really are christians, tend to take the easy way out. They let persons such as Copeland make up their minds for them. They don't search the scriptures to see if it is so, they don't test the spirits, they don't allow the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truth and understanding. They might not even open up their bibles anymore, because, hey, Copeland and the ilk like him have all the answers. And they must be blessed of God, right? Afterall, they're successful and they're on tv and they even author books(another reason why they might not need to look in the scriptures anymore). | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 796 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.59.45.188 |
jbkrems: Thanks for your reply. I agree with what you said that we are made in the image of God. But, Copeland has never said this. The way he said only emphyasizes the metaphysical concept which is the same as New Age and westernized form of Hinduism. In his tape, he clearly states that we are gods. He has never retreated from this position. FAITH: Yes, without faith it is impossible to pelase God. The question is FAITH in what? All these Faith preachers beleive in Faith in faith itself and not in God. This is the heresy. Their messages are always centerred around faith an d nothing else. This is what is boring. In their teaching whether they know it or not, their focus is only on FAITH (a force) and not in God. This ios tragic. I know several people who believed the Faith message and they claimed for new cars and they lost even their "clinkers" others lost their homes. One faith minister kept claiming for marriage at atime his wife was totally frustrated and was about to leave him. All that he did was to name and claim his marraige when he failed to do what he was supposed to do. Jesus commanded all of us to be wise as serpents. He never wants us to throw away our money to someone because he/ she is preaching the gospel. We must examine if they are accountable to anyone financially. Financial accoun tability will establish their own credibility before men. When a non christian looks at these men, their lavish lifestyles and their messages only on faith, they are convinced that these men use God's name in vain only to their own monetary gains. Billy graham was tempted with money, power and what not. He said "NO" and stayed away from those temptations. Even after 80 years, he is still reaching out to millions and has the credibility.He has set up his own personal standards and is sticking with them. If all these faith ministers will follow his example, just As Apostle Paul, they would have turned the world upside down. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 286 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.167.217 |
Inkorrekt: Do you have a date on the tape? I would like to hear/see the context of what he said before just dismissing it. | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 906 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
inkorrect, You state: All these Faith preachers beleive in Faith in faith itself and not in God. (This statement is a gross exageration.) This is not the case of even 95% of these guys. While they have many opinions that do not line up with Gods word, what they say and preach about faith is to put faith in Gods word. As I know Copeland is a small results for big money organization, he as well as others all say to have faith in Gods word, Gods grace and Gods love. They ALL emphasize meditating on, reading, hearing and doing Gods word. Now I don't care about your examples of people who failed. Examples are like excuses and nose holes everyone has two and they smell. Only Gods word are true and faithful promises that work for those who do not neglect to use them correctly. Gods word didn't fail your friends. Your friends failed. Gods word works. I know plenty of people that prayed for finances, healing, and all sorts of things but didnt see it. So what. I have seen plenty of people who did pray correctly according to Gods word and receive. Daniel prayed in Daniel 9 and saw his prayer answered immediately. Daniel prayed in Daniel 10 and it took 21 days of standing because his answer was hindered by satan. Now in both instances the angel of God explains that Daniels prayer was immediately answered and dispatched but only in Danile 10 it took 21 days. Now Daniel had no authoriy to use Jesus name to stop the hindrances, so all he could do is stand. He stood in faith and received. Had he doubted gave up and quit he would not have received. Now even Jesus was hindered in healing people because of peoples unbelief hindering them from receiving. Matthew 13:58 and in Mark 6 "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." The disciples were hindered because of their unbelief.Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: The truth of Gods word says that "without faith it impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6 The word also says to hold fast to your profession (Original Greek word used for profession is homologos - meaning to speak the same thing God says). Jesus said to speak to your mountains with as little faith as a mustard seed, do not doubt, and believe you receive WHEN YOU PRAY and you will have WHATEVER YOU SAY. Mark 11 Now we know he means only those things that are in Gods word supplied from His grace. Faith thru Grace. If it isn't already supplied in God's grace you can't have it. Faith appropriates what is already supplied in Gods grace. "Faith is the victory that overcomes the world" "Fight the good fight of faith" "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God." Romans 10 With God all things are possible,those things that are impossible by man. Without faith it is impossible to please God.Heb 11 Commit to God, renew your mind on Gods word, become transformed, and then you can appropriate Gods will.Romans 12 The mind must be washed and renewed by Gods word to line up with what God has already done and given in the Spirit of God. Wrong thinking(conformed to the world) equals wrong actions, fear, doubt and unbelief. "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he" Proverbs 18:20-22 20A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled. 21Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 710 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
Gods word didn't fail your friends. Your friends failed. Interesting that you use the same line that Robb Thompson uses when people begin to wonder why they never receive THEIR blessing while HE buys a new car. The WOF teachers always put the blame on the people rather than admit that they teach a gospel of greed. Where do you draw the line - you say you support some WOF people but are rabid against others. This has never made sense to me. And please let's not go into the Andrew Womack/Copeland controversy because that was talked to death on another thread. CM | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 907 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
cbm, I did not say I support any wof preachers. I only support complete whole truth. Rightly divide the word. I know people hate to take responsibility for not receiving so they blame God, Gods word or the preacher. They did that in Jesus day also. Yes the wofers are wrong in many things. They preach half truths and thus people throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also there are very specifif reasons according to the Bible why people do not receive when they pray. Did you read my WHOLE post? God and His word never misses it, never returns void, but accomplishes what it says it does. According to God's word unbelief will hinder you, and stop you from receiving. Unbelief is not the only reason among many listed but it is one of the major reasons of hindrance and not manifesting your answer. It's like doublemindedness. Unbelief pulling one way and the force of faith pulling the other way. Both are opposing forces. Unbelief hindered Jesus. Unbelief hindered the disciples. Unbelief hindered the Israelites from entering the promiseland. Hebrew 4 Unbelief and doubt are opposing forces to faith. Thompson does not practice stewardship. faithfulness, caretaking, management, or efficiency. Thompson soulwinning is little to nothing. Thompsons heart is in his money which is where he gets his self esteem, false feelings of power, and status. Thompson does not preach about the Holy Spirit. Thompson messes with peoples marriages, familes, and lives. Thompson is a classic cult with him as the cult leader.OK? Got that now? Basically Thompson like many others preach a half truth message which is only good for himself, and those without knowledge, discernment or maturity in Gods word swallow that garbage. All I said cbm was that God's word doesn't fail and God doesn't miss it. People do. Gods word says people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Gods word in 2Peter1 READ IT says all things that pertain to life and Godliness COME THROU THE KNOWLEDGE of Gods word, That also is including all things in His grace and peace are multiplied to us through the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. There is a better way to pray.There is an incorrect way to pray. Mark 11 There is a better way to think. Without knowing Gods word about God, the Holy Spirit one can never fully understand Gods word. In Mark 4 Jesus tells all that unless you understand this parable you can't understand the truth of Gods word. God's word is a seed. Unless it is planted IN GOOD GROUND, (NOT affected by the cares of this world, the lust of other things, and the deceitfulness of riches), watered with His word (keep ones mind meditating on and stayed on Gods word), and one is a doer (NOT A FORGETFUL HEARER James 4) than one cannot manifest the promises contained in them. "To be spiritually minded is life and peace, but to be carnally minded is death" Romans 8:6 | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2597 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
Oneway unfortunately I have to agree with you there it takes two to tango but what I had wanted to also say is that when one is taught these things early in their spiritual walk, where does blame lay? are ministers at all held accountable for what they preach ever... do they have a responsablity to get it right? Trsinheaven-there is no perfect way to pray, We don't receive and not receive because we pray incorrectly. I know someone who prayed perfectly, played by the rules you claim to believe in and it didn't work out-God looks at your heart not at if you got the prayer just right...that's non-sense, anyone who prays has to have belief or they wouldn't be praying... | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 711 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
trs I guess the problem we're having is one of semantics. I believe our prayers are always answered - it's just that we don't always get the answer we hoped for. That's why I try to pray the way Jesus taught "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I try to the best of my ability to line my prayers up with what I feel is the Lord's will in a situation. Of course since I'm human I sometimes miss it, but if I'm praying according to His heart and will, then I will have the answer I desire, simply because it's His desire. I don't know if I'm expressing it the way I'd like. Does this make sense? CM | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 797 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.59.45.188 |
Yes, I have been told that there are different levels of faith and the rewards depend on the level of faith. On the other hand, Jesus Himself told the disciples that "If you had the faith of the size of a mustard seed, you can move the mountain". What does this mean? Even little faith will accomplish much. So, their teaching on DEGEES OF FAITH contradicts Bible. | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 908 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
cybermom, I understand what you are saying. Gods word says. "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." 1 John 5: The key to prayer and asking is asking and praying according to as it states in Gods word ACCORDING TO GODS WILL. If we do not know Gods will which is Gods word, then you cannot pray correctly, accurately or effectively. So the first step is to know Gods will. "Seek FIRST the Kingdom of GOD..."Mt 6:33 To just throw up words, complain to God and ask him to change things is not what the Bible calls prayer or says to pray. "Gods will on earth as it is in heaven?" Well then in that case since there is no sickness, poverty, or evil in heaven then it must be what is Gods will on the earth. But remember we must ask where is God and where is heaven? They are both in the spiritual realm. God is a spirit the Bible says. Since the day I was born again I have noticed a serious flaw among people especially those who call themselves Christians. I noticed this same thing in religion even before I was born again."They hold the form of religion but deny the very power of it" They take what they can see smell taste feel and hear and look at circumstance above Gods word. They constantly try to look at circumstance and then try to use circumstance to explain God and His word. They elevate circumstance above God and His word. Just the opposite is true. Gods word explains circumstance. Nothing is circumstantial. But if you do not have knowledge of and understand Gods word then you cannot righlty explain and understand how things work. People and too many who call themselves Christians do not understand the spiritual realm . They do not know or acknowledge that the spiritual realm and its principles are more relevant and controls the physical realm. The Bible says in Hebrews 11 "God made the seen realm from the spiritual the unseen what is not visible." The Bible clearly states "God is a Spirit". We are to spiritually discern things including Gods word. Gods Holy Spirit wrote the Bible. We are a spirit(and we have Gods spirit in us if we are born again from above) but we just reside in and live in an earth suit called a body. People and too many who call themselves Christians do not focus on the spiritual. They focus only on the physical and five sense realm. Your five senses are for you to get around in the physical realm. They are not perfect. They can also be easily deceived. Thats why we have Gods word and Gods spirit. People do not renew their mind to Gods word as it commands in Romans 12:1-2. This causes the many errors in ones thinking about how everything works. God explains himself and His will in His word. If you don't get the KNOWLWDGE of his word and understand His word you will never know His will and testament. God never violates or veers from his own word. Psalm 138:2 says "God magnifys his word even above His own name." God's system is what made the physical realm. Too many people do not recognize the authority of Gods word, and thus have not learned it, even though for Christians the command is "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. 1Timothy 2: Gods system works according to Gods word. Just as their are laws of nature, physics, chemistry, mathematics etc. their are laws of Gods system. One example is "sowing and reaping". | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 663 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.122.182 |
This twists the meaning of that phrase in the Lord's Prayer. The Lord isn't teaching us to ask for the same things that are the heavenly state to be in the earthly state. If that is so, are you married? Do you want to be married? On the same basis you contend there should be no sickness, poverty or "evil" on earth, neither should there be any marriage, since the Lord taught there is no marriage in the heaven. This phrase is "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." It is the way God's will is to be done, not that God's will is the same for both. I think it's interesting that "faith folk" will say people don't receive because they don't ask in faith. But the bible is plain on why people ask and don't receive, it is because they "ask amiss". "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." (James 4:3) Sorry for butting in. | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 909 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
cybermom continued... Not knowing Gods word and to not pray according to Gods word and His will is the same as to hold the form of religion and deny its power". Jesus said "Tradition makes the word of no effect" Mark 7:13 It is a ping pong ball pin ball life bouncing from circumstance to circumstance deceived. "People are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" If you just go and do whatever you want and do not study, learn, ask and follow the manufacturers directions for anything then whatever it is it will fail. That is the way it works in all corners of life and that is the way it works with God. Knowledge is power. Peter states it so well 2Peter 2-3 "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him The difference being you just go around with circumstance happening to you and not you creating Gods will and circumstance to come to pass. The sin of ommission of Gods word wage and payment is death just like commission of sin and the wage of sin is death. Gods word shows Gods will and how the kingdom of God works. Jesus states in Mark chapter 4 "And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word." If you do not understand Mark chapter 4 you will not understand Gods word."And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it. But without a parable He did not speak to them." Jesus goes on and explains how Gods kingdom works that His word is like a seed and we are like the ground for it to be planted in to yield a harvest and bear much fruit. And He said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how. For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.” Then He said, “To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it? It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth; but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade.” Jesus explains in Mark 4 the hindrances of why the word even when planted does not yield a harvest. The ground is bad. He explains "The sower sows the word. And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 911 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff, faith folk? of which you are one? or are you one who doubts? The prayer you are referring to is an Old Testament prayer by the way. "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." God is not schizophrenic. Was there poverty, lack, sickness death in the garden. Remember this use to be a garden made in the mirror image of Gods will, God nature and Gods love. We now have an advesary and a physical mortal body to contend with. Anyway this is off the subject and takes too long to explain but Gods will is in His word. You mention FAITH? Jesus said to believe you recieve and to ask in faith none doubting in your heart. Mark 11 "And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. NOTE- Let me make it clear again since you FAIL TO READ my post. I did not say faith or lack of it was the main hindrance to prayer. Let's look at what Jesus said and God's word states. Now even Jesus was hindered in healing people because of peoples unbelief hindering them from receiving. He doesn't say lack of faith. It is their unbelief. You can have faith and unbelief at the same time. You retain doubts, unbelief and still have faith. James explains it as doublemindedness and says..."But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." Now Jesus shows in Matthew 13:58 and in Mark 6 "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." The disciples were hindered because of their unbelief.Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: Gods word says Unbelief hindered the Israelites from entering the promiseland. Hebrews 4 Unbelief and doubt are opposing forces to faith. The truth of Gods word says that "without faith it impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6 Well all we need is "mustard seed size faith" but we need to remove what hinders faith to see the answer. You must remove unbelief. Unbelief hindered even Jesus. How much more will it hinder you? Not everything you pray for sees an answer in the physical realm instantly manifest. Some things take time. Look at the example of Daniel 9 and 10 as in my post 907 above. Standing in faith "resisting the devil and he will flee from you". We are told to resist. You have a responsibility to learn and do Gods word. God is not the problem, only a knowledge problem, is the problem as it states in 2Peter1 and Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.2So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; 3Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; 4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; 5Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 6For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 666 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.122.182 |
Trs, you're the one who quoted the Lord's Prayer. Oh, btw, it's in the NT not the OT. If the Gospel of our Lord isn't New Testament, then nothing is. (BTW, please don't quote me any dispensational teaching that splinters the Gospel up - never bought it, never will). Please note that my use of "faith folk" was, well, in scare quotes. It is meant as shorthand. I could have written "believers in Word of Faith" doctrine, or "followers of the Hagin/Copeland/Kenyon heresy" - but I chose a shorthand. Don't make too much of it. I have faith, but I'm betting you and I use the word (and all that is tied up in it) much differently. Here's a scripture for you - May God truly illumine you to have eyes of understanding. | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 912 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcm You are the one who needs illuminating. Just because it is in the new testament Gospels does not make it new testament principle. Jesus prior to his resurrection was in old testament times. The Lord prayer is an old testament prayer. No matter - "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" means exactly what Jesus is saying as does all the other things in that prayer. Gods will is that all people be saved-That does not mean all will be saved. As we know since the fall of man people reject Gods will. The new covenant did not come about until his resurrection and the day of pentecost by the promised comforter coming the Holy Spirit coming upon them. Do you understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the evidence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 674 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Trs, what scripture do you base your negating of the Gospels on? I understand far more than you would think. I was in all that garbage for 20 plus years. Thankfully, God delivered me. | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 913 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff78, I am not in favor of Copeland and his cohorts teachings. They error in critical areas. If you miss it these areas you derail and miss it in all. I am not negating Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The time before and up until Jesus sacrifice people were still living under the old covenant. Now you tell me what the Gospel is? What is the Gospel that Jesus said to go into all the world and preach and teach with signs following confirming the word preached such as in Mark 16 and Matthew? The new covenant did not come about until the resurrection of Jesus and the day of pentecost by the promised comforter coming the Holy Spirit coming upon them. Prior to that Jesus was going about fulfilling the law and the prophets, perfectly and sinlessly, teaching what was to come after him when the Holy Spirit was poured out in all the universe and available to live inside you and all who would receive Him. Before Jesus you could not put "new wine into old wineskins." You could not be born again from above. It was still old covenant times. There is a huge difference of Gods relationship to mankind living under the old covenant and the new covenant and how God relates to mankind and we relate to God. Mcmstaff do you understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the evidence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are? Do you know what the scripture says the purpose of pentecost was for? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 675 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Trs, please provide specific scripture for your position regarding the Gospels. I will give you mine: Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;" Everything that follows is the beginning of the Gospel. You mistake the beginning of the Church with the Gospel. You do err. I know what Pentecostal/Charismatic/NoLR interpret the scriptures to mean in their regurgitation of the Montanist heresy. But in this they do err. | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 914 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff The beginning of the Gospel does not mean it is the beginning of the new covenant. It simply means what it says. It is the beginning of the good news story of Gods redemption. It then shows you the time frame. The new testament refers to Elijah, Moses, all the Israelites, and many old testament characters and principles. Paul even explains the difference later. The accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are their inspired accounts of Jesus life. Jesus is an old testament Jew growing up and until Jesus "the son of man" fulfils every law commanded and every prophecy with a sinless life sacrificed unjustly, and resurected there is no Gospel. Without the resurrection Jesus coming is in vain. The four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the foundation of the New Testament and form a bridge between the law of the Old Testament and the grace of the New Testament. The Old Testament cannot be properly understood without the revelation of Jesus that the New Testament gives, for all of the law and the prophets pointed to Jesus (1 Pet. 1:10-12). The symbolism of the tabernacle and sacrifices, along with the ordinances of the law, were all shadows or pictures of Christ (Col. 2:16-17) Likewise, the New Testament cannot be fully appreciated without an adequate understanding of the Old Testament. A person without the knowledge of God's judgement on the sin of adultery, as revealed in Exodus 20:14, Leviticus 18:20 and 20:10, would not realize the extent of God's love and forgiveness as revealed in John 8:3-11. Therefore, it is fitting that the combination of the Old and New Covenants comprise God's Word to us, but as Christians, it is imperative that you realize the difference between the two and live exclusively under the New Covenant as revealed in the 26 books of the New Testament (Gal. 3:11-14; 5:1; Heb. 7:18-19; 8:7-13). The gospels reveal Christ unto us. Certainly not everything that Jesus did is revealed (Jn. 20:30-31; 21:25), but the accounts that the gospel writers give reveal the very nature and person of Jesus. Even with all of the great doctrinal truths revealed in the epistles, out total picture of God would not be complete without the accounts of Jesus' life and ministry. | ||
| trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 915 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff "And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed [them]. " Mk. 6:5: This verse says that Jesus could do (not would do) no mighty work, showing that He was hindered in doing what He willed to do by "their unbelief" (Mt. 13:58). Some degree of faith must be present in the person receiving the miracle in order for God to do the work It is God's will that no one should perish (Jn. 3:16 with 2 Pet. 3:9), but many do because of their unbelief. Likewise, it is God's will that we all be healed (3 Jn. 2; Mt. 8:16-17), but not all are healed because we fail to believe (Heb. 4:2). It is a mistake to assume that whatever God wills will automatically come to pass. We play a part in receiving from God. If Jesus, who had no limitations, couldn't do all the mighty works He desired to do because of other people's unbelief, then most certainly, we have to take into account the level of the peoples' faith and their hindrances of unbelief and tradition whom we minister to. This is the reason Jesus sought seclusion when performing certain miracles "And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden." Lk. 8:51: The reason Jesus allowed only these five people to go with Him is because of the other people's unbelief. The unbelief of others can hinder the manifestation of God's power just as Jesus experienced in Mark 6:5-6. This is the reason Jesus put out all the mourners who mocked Him (v. 54 with Prov. 22:10), led the blind man away from the unbelief of others in the town of Bethsaida (Mk. 8:22-23), and took the deaf and dumb man aside from the multitude (Mk. 7:33). Elijah (1 Ki. 17:19) and Elisha (2 Ki. 4:33) also sought seclusion when raising people from the dead as did Peter (Acts 9:40). Many miracles have been lost, not because of any unwillingness on God's part, but rather because the person who was believing for the miracle failed to realize the hindrance that other people's unbelief can be. Compare this with Deuteronomy 7:17 where the Lord told the children of Israel that if they doubted in their heart, He could not perform His promises to them (Num. 33:53) of dispossessing the nations in the promised land. And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee], and sayest thou, Who touched me? Lk. 8:45: The multitudes were thronging Jesus (i.e. to compress; crowd on all sides; Mk. 5:31), so it seems strange that He would ask, "Who touched me?" Many people were physically touching Jesus but this woman touched His power by faith. Many people in the crowd probably needed healing, but this person is the only person mentioned who received. The difference was the touch of faith. If it was simply Jesus' willingness to heal that determined whether or not the healing took place, then all of the sick in this multitude would have been healed. This instance illustrates that it's not prayer that saves the sick but rather the prayer of faith that saves the sick (Jas. 5:15). | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 738 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
Since I couldn't find the Copeland jet thread, I thought I'd post this here. Check out a recent article regarding the Copeland's jet use on www.rickross.com For those of us following their exploits, it's really no surprise. Perhaps it'll open the eyes of other dupes that have bought into the whole "Prosperity" twisting of the Word of God that has gone on. Might save them some money and much heartache. CM | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 839 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.32.155 |
TRSINHEAVEN: Do you mean to say that the healing crusades by Copeland, Benny Hinn etc. are genuine? It has been observed many times that when Hagin laid on hands, people stood still. No one was falling backwards. He thought the anointing had left him and services were closed. When the anointing (REAL ONE) comes upon someone, this person falls forward in humility to God. Falling backwards is demonic. did you know that? | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 739 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
inkorrekt I know you didn't post to me, but I'd like to ask you a question. I'm not disagreeing with you, but would like to know where you got your info re: falling backwards vs forwards. I only know of a few references to people falling in re: the power of God, one being in the Garden of Gethsamane when Jesus said "I AM He." BTW I'm not hung up on the falling stuff, only when it's faked, forced, or done out of insecurity (a need to appear to fit in with what's going on). Thanks CM | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 852 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.32.155 |
This information has been very well documented. I have all the information. I have to dig deep into my storage to get out. When the real anointing comes, it is like an elctric shock. Real anointing does not make anyone fall backwards, or scream and run raising hands etc. There is a ministry specialized in gyrating and imitating animals. This was very popular for many years. We do not see much of it of late. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 454 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
Inkorrekt, I probably agree about the falling stuff with CM. The only OTHER reference (besides the one CM provided) that I know about falling backwards was in the Old Testament, when the glory of God fell (I believe this was God's shekinah presence) and God's presence was so thick and strong AND because of that the priests could not stand to minister, and people fell out. However, I do agree that if someone fakes a fall, or it is forced, or done out of insecurity, with a desire to fit in. Quite frankly, I've had hands laid on me and fallen out, and I've had hands laid on me and NOT fallen out, and it has nothing to do with receiving, but more so with how strong the power of God is moving. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 863 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.221.210.151 |
JBKREMS, Give me a BREAK PLEEEEEEEEZE. Many years ago, there was a physician in my Sunday School Class. He asked for prayers.I was prompted to pray. I went and laid hands on him and said avery simple prayer. After this, he told me that he felt like an electric shock. I have prayed for terminally ills, homosexuals, alcoholics, suicidals and all of them had been healed. However, my daughter was sick and she died. Why? Is it because I never had faith? Where was God's power on my daughter? All I can say is I do not know. God only knows. I do not have all the answers. You sound like a Cultist who only has all the answers. No one else knows anything.I can relate to you as I was into a Christian cult for 25 years. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 458 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Inkorrekt, No --- I'm not a cultist. You can check out my church's website at http://www.faithchurchok.com/ Your daughter did not die because you lacked faith. Au contraire, its possible she lacked faith, or another reason --- maybe she just did not want to fight the disease ---- faith IS a fight. Let me tell you a story. When I lived in St. Louis, we had a guy at our church who suffered from ALS, Lou Gehrig's Disease. We prayed and prayed and prayed for him --- and he never recovered --- and eventually died. Right before he died, he called for his pastor (my former pastor) and said that he could no longer fight the disease as a matter of faith and wanted to give up. The next day he died. Such could have been the case with your daughter, I do not know, I was not there, she never could have vocalized her position, like this guy did his. I do not have all the answers --- but God does. However, there are possible explanations, if we look to God and His Word. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5014 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
You are scary! That is very dangerous theology. Christian Science heresy! People die because they don't have enough faith? That is 100% CULTIC! Not Biblical at all. This word of faith, name it claim crap is pure heresy to the Christian faith. It is the same thing as witchcraft. Say the right incantation, stir a potion of eye of newt, unicorn horn, bat's testicles and satan must deliver your desires! Same thing! People die because of DISEASE. And not getting treated for that disease. Disease is caused by many factors. Genetics, environment, diet, lack of exercise, lack of sleep, stress...... many factors that we can control. Pray for God's wisdom to help us live healthy lifestyles. Relying on faith alone to heal them is INSANE! Some people will die anyway because there is no known treatment for their disease. No one dies because it is God's will. But because we and this world are imperfect. Yes, God can do miraculous perfect healings on people. But that is because God is God. Has nothing to do with a person's faith or the people's around that person faith. God can override anyone's lack of faith. God is not a vending machine that needs the precise, correct change and denominations to deliver His will. God is God. Man is nothing in comparison. But to put some poofy haired preacher man who just crawled out from under a rock and proclaimed himself to be a healer and prophet on a pedestal, then when he can't deliver and heal someone, the person dies, first thing these heretics do is blame the dead for not having enough faith. Time and time again. Heresy! Cultic!!!!!!! Hobart Freeman preached this heresy and he is responsible for hundreds of people including innocent children dying for not seeking medical treatment. Think what the hell you are advocating here. It is certainly not Christian! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 461 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, Calm down. You overreact to much. First, I'm not Christian Science. Second, the key is receiving --- if you do not have the faith to receive healing, you may or may not get it. This is because the Bible teaches that faith is a FIGHT. Don't believe me? 2 Tim. 4:7 says, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith." 1 Tim. 6:12 says, "Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses." I never said we should rely on faith alone for healing for illness. I believe in doctors and medicine, which distinguishes me from Christian Scientists, which ARE a cult, IMHO. God gave us medicine and doctors to treat illness. That's why I am saying faith is a fight --- we are to fight disease and illness not just with faith, but with doctors and medicine, IN ADDITION to faith. However, if we choose to give up the fight, then we can die. And that isn't God's best. Lastly, I've never heard of Hobart Freeman, and from what you're saying, he's wrong, because we should NEVER discourage people from seeking medical treatment. So, calm down, Franklin, I'm not "out there" as you suggest. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5016 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
I'm perfectly calm jb. I have the peace of the Lord. Something I wish you had. Hobart Freeman started out a Copelandite just like you. He just took the word of faith (faith in faith) a step further. To it's illogical conclusion. What you are saying is just the perfect lame excuse for fake healers to pass the buck for the reason someone they scammed not to be healed. I personally know that faith in God is very important to the blessings we receive. But like I said, Copeland takes a little bit of truth and mixes in a lot of his (and satan's) unscriptural lies in them. Leading his flock of fools away from God. Stop being one of them. For your own sake but more importantly, for God's sake. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 466 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, I have the peace of the Lord as well. I've never heard of Hobart Freeman. I know lots of people with that last name (Jewish friends), and I am acquainted with a Hobart Vann in St. Louis, but I have never heard of Hobart Freeman until you mentioned him. LOL. I disagree with you about Copeland, though. I believe you take wat he says out of context. You said that what I say is "the perfect lame excuse for fake healers to pass the buck for the reason someone" is not healed. This statement is a misnomer. There is no such thing as a "fake healer," or a "healer," be it fake or real. The only Person who can heal is Jesus Christ. Yes, He uses people who have "gifts of healings and miracles" (the Scripture for that is 1 Cor. 12) to heal people, but Jesus is the Source of healings, not some "healer," as you suggest. Don't make man the source of a problem, when God is the Source of the solution. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5018 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
jb: "I disagree with you about Copeland, though. I believe you take wat he says out of context." Now that sounds cultic! I know you know better than that! I have quoted whole quotes from Copeland. Did he not say these things? It is copeland who takes scripture out of context to promote himself as some sort of god on earth. And you buy into that heady, narcissistic poison. you like thinking of yourself as some sort of god! you are no better than the mormons, heretics also, who claim that they will become gods. no better than the atheists who deny God's existence making themselves gods. You are many things jb, but Christian you ain't! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 467 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, I am a Christian --- its strange for you to say I am not. You do quote Copeland, but you take his quotes out of context. I would really wish you to publish his entire sermons, where you received the quotes from, so we can all weigh them in their original context. I am VERY DIFFERENT than the Mormons. They teach, as you suggest, that when you die you will become some sort of god. That's heresy! Rather, I believe that I am created in God's image and likeness, and I have His authority and His name to do the things that Jesus said I would be able to do as a believer. Mormons do not believe in these things. Name one Mormon who says He can cast out demons or heal the sick in Jesus name. I don't think you can, because they don't believe in that kind of stuff. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5019 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
YOU show me where Copeland has denied and recanted what he has said when he said that: "You don't have a god in you, you are one." "Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in Myself. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." "I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" "God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never thought that is because He never said He was one". "God is a being that stands somewhere around 6'2", 6'3." "Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself. He [Adam] was not a little like God, he was not almost like God, He was not subordinate to God even. Adam is God manifested in the flesh" That's just for starters. There is no taking out of context there. He said these blasphemous, unscriptural things. There is no defense. Show me where he has recanted this heresy. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 470 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, Yes, there is taking out of context. Each of these statements was said during a sermon. I'm waiting on you to provide the full text. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 471 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, Yes, there is taking out of context. Each of these statements was said during a sermon. I'm waiting on you to provide the full text. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 472 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, Yes, there is taking out of context. Each of these statements was said during a sermon. I'm waiting on you to provide the full text. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 806 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Well I for one would like to hear the whole context. Those are some pretty hard statements to imagine in a context that is not offensive. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5020 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
Hey, he's your cult leader. Not mine. You are defending him. I'm just quoting him. I can barely stand to look at his unclean words of blasphemy. Haven't you read all of his sermons? Here are some of the many links that expose his heresy: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c53.html http://www.letusreason.org/Wf19.htm http://www.ondoctrine.com/10copela.htm The real truth about copeland is out there. And it ain't pretty. it ain't Christian. We are created to be the servants of God.  Not the other way around. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 807 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
As far is the wordfaith thing. I think the proper perspective is to understand that there are two camps of words that can pass through our mouths - satan is the father of lies and then you have the Tree of Life that is the father of truth. So I agree that if you have faith in the true words and let those words pass through your mouth then they will stand. Satan's words will fail. So in that respect I guess that I'm a wordfaither. However, if you put your faith in satan's words (i.e. you let this type of desire corrupt your heart) then you might as well forget it. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 473 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, Bro. Copeland is not my cult leader. I respect him and so forth, but no higher than my own pastor or any other man of God. Those websites are VERY biased. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5023 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
I have no respect for blasphemers and heretics. As human beings and creations of God I do love them. But do not have respect for what they do. Only "man of God" was Jesus Christ. He was human but also God. Other than Him there are no "men of God". Yes those websites have a Christian bias to them. No wonder they hurt your brainwashed mind to read them. It might take years to deprogram you of that "word of faith" heresy. But the sooner that shadow is off your soul the sooner you will be able to connect with the Holy spirit and begin to have a true understanding of God. Here's a seed for free. God is not man. man is not god. man is just man. God is a just God! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 475 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, You're wrong. Everyone who believes in Jesus is a "son of God," and that makes them a "man of God." Those websites have an anti-WOF bias and they are one-sided. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 810 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
jb - I think you didn't state that correctly. I believe you probably meant to say that everyone who believes that Jesus was God in the flesh who shed His blood to cover our sins is a "son (or daughter) of God". Satan believed that Jesus was the son of God but did not accept Him as His savior. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5025 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
You are so eager to call yourself a "son of God" aren't you? Do you believe you are equal to Christ? As for me I am a child of God. Like all humanity is. I believe Christ is the one and ONLY SON OF GOD. Therefore I am a saved by God's grace. The words of the Bible have a totally different meaning to you and your fellow heretics. You scan pages for anything taken out of context that might seem to make you equal to Christ, to God. You have put yourself on high lofty towers like Nemrod did. And you are shooting an arrow in the sky. Blaspheming God. The whole Christian Church has an anti-wof bias because the wof heresy is not of God. It is a perversion of God's word. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 811 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I feel that I need to post the following scripture for balance: 1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. I see a difference in being one of the sons of God and being the "only begotten Son of God". OK - I really don't have time for this - lots to do but needed to say the above. (Message edited by Grace2u on March 25, 2007) | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 477 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
Franklin, I think grace2u's post above says it all --- if you are born again, and a Christian, then you are a "son of God." I agree completely with grace2u that there is a difference etween being a son of God and being "the only begotten Son of God." Now, Franklin, YOU have said some heretical. You believe that "all huamanity" are children of God. That is NOT TRUE --- according to John, ONLY THOSE WHO ARE CHRISTIANS are children of God. Not "all of humanity" like you suggest. FRANKLIN THAT IS MAJOR HERESY!!! | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5026 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
BULL! Are we not all creations of God! You will not find heresy in any of my words. I am not perfect but I have not abandoned the true Christian faith like you and Copeland have. So you and Copeland have taken a few select verses and preach from the lofty pulpits that "Ye are Gods!" It's funny how you always paraphrase scripture but never quote it. What are you afraid of? You seem to be a little more civil than your woffer partner in heretical crime, getagrip, who is still floating around factnet after being banned under other user names. The evil fruit of the wof heresy really manifested itself in him and his viciousness. I do not hear any Christians going around proclaiming they are "Sons of God". That only comes from the woffers. I just prefer the lesser title of child of God. As to son of God you will never hear me call myself that. I do not want ANY confusion with my place in God's kingdom and Christ's. You and and Copeland on the other hand have taken "son of God" and have run with it equating yourselves to the ONLY Son of God, Jesus Christ. You know it's true. You are not being upfront here with what you really believe. Like the Mormons or any other cult, the deeper you go in the more heretical the beliefs are revealed. I know that for a fact about the wof cults. You keep refusing to answer my questions. Why is that? Here's another one for you. And I don't want to hear any lame excuse as to it being taken out of context. copeland said it. Now explain it. Where in scripture does this come from? "God is a being that stands somewhere around 6'2", 6'3." | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 480 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, You need to defend yourself. You said above, "As for me I am a child of God. Like all humanity is." OK --- if you're a Christian, and I believe you are, then YES --- you ARE a child of God. But then you said, "Like all humanity is." Is every human being a Christian? NO WAY. So, you said, in essence, "All of humanity are children of God." THAT IS A LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL. John 1:12 CLEARLY STATES that only those who receive Jesus and believe in His name are given the RIGHT to be called "children of God." You need to defend your belief against that specific Scripture. I know lots of non-WOF Christians who believe they are "sons of God." Ask any Baptist. Ask grace2u who also posted in this thread. You are WRONG --- Copeland and I do NOT equate ourselves to Jesus Christ. I am being VERY up-front with what I believe, but you choose to NOT listen, and instead tout YOUR OWN HERESY as I described above. I do answer your questions, you don't listen. You're right --- the statement that God is 6 feet tall is not found in the Bible. But that does not make it heresy. And quite frankly, in order for me to evaluate that statement, I need to see the rest of the sermon. I am not justifying that statement --- clearly it is error. But in order to fully evaluate it, I need the entire context from which it was given. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 812 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Being a creation of God and being a child of God are two different things. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 813 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
I know lots of non-WOF Christians who believe they are "sons of God." Ask any Baptist. Ask grace2u who also posted in this thread. Well - I like to think of myself as a daughter of the King. I have a "little" difficulty with the son part. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5028 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
There are many appellations a Christian can call themselves, some are found in the bible. son of God is one that I will not because there is a blasphemous movement, wof is a part of, that twists the meaning to something that is not there. Man of God is another. That is so laughable for any Christian man to seriously allow themselves to be called that when we ALL fall so short of the glory that is Christ's. What ever happened to being humble before the Lord? That went out of style in the 70's and 80's during the new age movement that crept into and infected the body of Christ. wof is a hybird remnant of that. It will die out soon, like all heresies do. Your claiming to have the same authority as Christ, the same healing power is blasphemous. You will never pin a heretic label on me. From anything I say. I do not believe all dogs go to heaven. Many will be lost to satan. Many who we assume are lost will be saved. Many who we assume are saved will be lost. Obviously I have no say in final judgement. But I discern that copeland and some of his followers fit in the latter category. copeland is a modern day Nemrod shooting his arrow in the sky in defiance of God. copeland has made ENOUGH "erroneous" (as you put it) statements that he has relegated himself as someone to turn our backs on. He certainly does not have any divine revelation. Once again you are in the elevating man, diminishing God business. The woffers are so akin to the secular humanists. What difference is there between a woffer and a Christian Scientist? None that I can see. I am for diminishing man and elevating God. Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:" You look up to copeland like a god. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2738 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.208.88.170 |
Franklin, isn't it funny when you start to speak out against a teacher someone loves- they really jump off the deep end, don't they. Copeland is just a man and a man who has made many false claims and deceived people over the years..he has said a lot of stupid things and they have been documented..One can find more negative on the WOF organazation- than they can find good. My advice for what is worth- is follow Christ, look to His words and figure them out on your own! Quit looking to men for all your answers and spiritual advice. Who needs greedy men who twist scripture to show us the way-people have problems, life isn't perfect and just because things don't always work out doesn't mean we are failures in the eyes of God. Someone said it best here once before- God isn't some Genie in a bottle and we can just rub him the right way- say the right things and it will all be good and perfect -that is hokey and it sounds very, very evil-a spin on the new age..not to mention the danger people have found themselves in for believing these lies(death and debt).R (Message edited by rachelengland on March 26, 2007) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 836 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Ask WoFfers why it doesn't work. If they have the "same authority as Jesus", why do we see the following: 1. John Osteen, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived. 2. John Osteen himself passed away due to several medical conditions. His church "confessed" his healing and he himself had stated that God told him he would be preaching in the pulpit in his 90's. Osteen died in his 70's. 3. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. She wrote a book on her ordeal, just surf Betty Price at http://www.amazon.com. I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all. 4. T. L. Osborn's wife, Daisy Osborn, died of cancer. Yet T. L is supposed to have a miracle ministry overseas, yet there was no supernatural healing for his wife. 5. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated. I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body. 6. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy. 7. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention. 8. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor). 9. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." 10. "Prophet" Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS. According to a first hand account, he spoke at a church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later. 11. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, Hagin’s "great faith" and "special anointing" could not keep her on the planet. 12. Buddy Harrison, Kenneth E. Hagin's son-in-law, died of cancer Dec. 1999. Dad Hagin's "special healing anointing" (read I Believe In Visions by Hagin) could not help his own family member. Now, watch how quickly the WoFfers backpeddal and qualify what they believe. (Message edited by mcmstaff78 on March 26, 2007) | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 866 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.32.155 |
JBKREMS: My daughter was 18 months old when she died. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 815 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
What ever happened to being humble before the Lord? I have been thinking and continue to think (even today) what an awesome responsibility it is for those who are Christians to rule and reign with Christ. As Franklin mentioned the reference to "gods" and magistrates, etc. - what a responsibility that God does place on those that rule and reign with him. Some people think of power etc. but never consider the weight of being in a position to judge. I think one who is truly interested in ruling and reigning will do so with humble intentions and to help God carry out His will. It's about what is right and wrong (considering grace of course) more than it is about power. It is more about servant leadership than status. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 760 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
inkorrekt My daughter died when she was 20; but she had severe CP and was also incapable of "exercising" the kind of faith that JB seems to think our children should. How presumptuous of him. I believe that we should always pray for healing, but that God is sovereign and sometimes we don't always get what we want no matter what we confess or claim. That is no reflection on our faith in Him or His ability to heal. We don't have a magic potion in our mouths that we can spout and produce the results we want to see. That's for Him and Him alone to decide. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 481 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
Grace2u, That's fine. I can understand your hang-up, but you would agree that "there is neither male, nor female, in Christ." Franklin, Christ gave His disciples the power of God. He told them, "Whatever your bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Christ delegated His authority to the disciples, and because we are His disciples today, we have that same delegated authority. It is NOT sovereign authority, but Jesus said in Mark 11 that if we use our faith, and command a mountain to move, it must OBEY US. There is a HUGE difference between WOF and Christian Scientist. WOF people affirm the need for doctors and medicine, and Christian Scientists say doctors and medicine aren't for them. There's a big difference between the two. Inkorrekt, Well --- OK. I didn't know that. I'm really sorry for your loss. Clearly, an 18-month-old child cannot "receive" like an adult can. BUT --- their parents can believe and have faith, and I won't judge the situation, further, then, because like I said, I wasn't there. grace2u, I like and appreciate so much of what you say. I agree with pretty much all of it. Cybermom, No --- I do not expect little children to be able to exercise faith. I'm not presumptuous as you suggest. I disagree with you, though, that "God is sovereign" when it comes to healing. God's WILL is ALWAYS to heal. But sometimes our spirits are not WILLING TO RECEIVE. And when it comes to a child who cannot receive, then parents have a special repsonsibility and place to receive on the child's behalf. I can't judge any specific situation, but I do disagree with your sovereignty argument. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5029 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
Typical woffer lame excusing for the falsity of their heresy. They want to play God. Claim they have the magic spell to do everything God can do. So do witches in a coven. Yet when name it claim it, blab and grab, doesn't work if it's not the child's fault then it's the parents, or someone else's who didn't have enough faith. They will never comprehend that it is God alone who rules this world. In the beginning satan in the form of a serpent hissed "ye shall be as gods." Today satan in the form of copeland hisses "ye shall be as gods". | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 482 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Franklin, Why should I respond to you when you do not listen?? | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 5030 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.143.128 |
That's my line. You do not comprehend a word I am saying. copeland's lies prevents you from hearing the truth. You are not god. Never will be a god. God is not your servant for you to order around. Thinking there is a magic spell you can say or think to get you anything you want is the same as witchcraft. Be warned. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2740 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
If I am correct here-you just put the blame on cybermom for her child's death...right because it was her lack of faith that couldn't keep her alive-I could be wrong but sad to say many in your sect would agree with that theory-...HFL did the same thing to me concerning my mother's passing and let me tell you something Krems- every man that mcmstaff78 wrote about in his above post -were men whose books and teachings permiated the library of my home.. I can stand in peace these days and say God does not always physically heal(especially if your blinded and do not seek medical attention)-even when you have all your ducks in a row or all your chips on the table and you've confessed the special words and eaten the right foods..there is NO shame in death-we live on planet earth- it happens..... (Message edited by rachelengland on March 27, 2007) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 837 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.224.82.48 |
Just an update, "Bishop" Mack Timberlake actually died in 2002 at the age of 52. One of the things these WoFfers do is excuse any sickness a person gets or dies from after age 70 because "that's all we're promised" (ignoring the whole teaching that no one should ever die of sickness). But Mack, a stalwart of the "Faith Movement", didn't even reach 70. May God have mercy on his soul and on his family. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2743 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
mcmstaff78-thank you for that information-I hate that just because someone dies before what they (WOF followers) think is before their promised time- then they must of been living in sin or had a lack of faith-it's all rubbish and untrue. God has a plan and we can't play his part... We don't have control over Him or life with or words or mindset-yes it is lovely when one has a healthy, positive lifestyle but it guarantees nothing....R (Message edited by rachelengland on March 27, 2007) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 839 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.224.82.48 |
Yep, we just don't know and we have no "promise" of any certain number of years. The one scripture I can never get any WoFfer to respond to is from James 4:13 - 16, "Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil." Just one more scripture to explain away or ignore, I guess. | ||
| speakword2004 Senior Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 1207 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
I like you MCM78 | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 840 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.224.82.48 |
 | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 762 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
I disagree with you, though, that "God is sovereign" when it comes to healing. God's WILL is ALWAYS to heal. But sometimes our spirits are not WILLING TO RECEIVE. And when it comes to a child who cannot receive, then parents have a special repsonsibility and place to receive on the child's behalf. I can't judge any specific situation, but I do disagree with your sovereignty argument. So anytime someone isn't healed, it's their fault - not enough faith. Or the parents' if it's a young or incapacitated child. How dare you. No, I'm not angry, just stunned. I wouldn't wish experiences like ours on anyone - but it helped me grow IN MY FAITH, made me strong in the Lord and dependent on Him. When you've sat in a hospital or at the bedside of a sick or dying loved one, then you can come to me and tell me just how much faith I had. You have no idea. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 483 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Rachel, No, to clarify, my comment was directed towards Inkorrekt, not Cybermom. Sorry for your confusion. And quite frankly, that's not exactly what I meant. So, again, let me clarify. Unless God is going to perform a supernatural miracle to get someone saved, or to get someone's attention, then praying for someone to be healed only works if that person can receive by faith the prayer of faith to get him or her healed. Clearly, small children (infants and toddlers) cannot receive in the same manner adults can. So, there is a special responsibility for parents to receive and also to intercede on behalf of their child. But these statements above are general considerations. This means that there could be OTHER considerations that I am unaware of, in any situation. There can be doubt. There can be unbelief. Sometimes we have unbelief, and we do not even know it --- we aren't even aware of it. But who am I to discern these things, since I don't know any of you personally, and I simply was not there. Rachel, I DO disagree with you --- God's will ALWAYS is to heal, physically and otherwise. Why doesn't it happen??? Sometimes WE fail to receive by faith. Sometimes WE really do NOT believe God's Word. Sometimes WE are not rooted and grounded enough in the Word of God to KEEP our healing, etc. Don't blame God --- the real issue is you and me, and our flawed selves. Cybermom, That's an overstatement. If someone isn't healed, it could be a combination of factors. Yes, their could be "not enough" faith. Actually --- that's not entirely true. What really happens, often times, is that the person's faith is mixed with doubt and/or unbelief. It might even be subconscious. This is what James called being "double-minded." Real faith gets into agreement and declares the end from the beginning. If you are sick and dying of cancer, and you do not declare the end from the beginning that you are HEALED in Jesus' name, then you really are not expecting that result. There is also the issue of receiving. And all must be willing to receive and expect God to perform a miracle. Let me say one more thing. I know of a pastor in the Nashville area who's fiancee is in the hospital, and I believe in ICU (at least she was at some time). Her fiancee (the guy who is a pastor) is NOT in faith for her to be well. I know this because it says on his church's blog that "We're not expecting anything," and basically, "We're not getting our hopes up." Clearly, this indicates unbelief on his part that God WILL heal his fiancee. Most people will say God CAN heal. The real issue is whether God WILL heal. We must beleve that God WILL heal and we must stand in faith, expecting to receive that result. Amen? | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 763 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
You're still saying the same thing, just approaching it from the other end - not a matter of faith, but receiving, and isn't that really the same thing? I don't agree. And you're still blaming the "victim", that if we confess to have the faith, then maybe on some subconscious level we aren't willing to receive. It's still all our fault. I just don't agree with that. God is still a good God even if we don't always get our way. And show me in Scripture where it says that not being healed is our fault on some subconscious level. Not spiritually, but subconsciously. | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 872 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.34 |
CYBERMOM: You have a very rational view on healing. I am sure many of you know who Joni Eareckson Tada is. She was a charming and gorgeous young lady in her teens. She went for diving and she was carried away by heavy currents and she was hurt. She became a paraplegic. She has been a faithful believer. She did everything towards healing. Nothing happened. She even went to the Bethsaida lake and waited for someone to dip her with the hope of healing. Nothing happened. She even went to all the healing crusades on earth. Nothing happened. She was frustrated. She even wanted to die. Finally, she had accepted her illness. Today, she has reached millions of physically handicapped with the love of Christ.She paints adorable pictures with her mouth. She has a very sweet radio program,"Joni and Friends" . If she had been healed, there would never have been any opportunity for her ministry. Today, she gives away wheelchairs to those who cannot afford all over the world. Why was she not healed? Where was God's power? What had happened to her faith? Can somone explain this to me please? | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 484 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
Cybermom, No, faith and receiving are two different things --- perhaps two sides of the same coin. The point that I am making is not to blame the "victim," that's a complete mis-read and mis-interpretation of what I'm saying. Its not entirely our fault. Look at the parable of the sower. Is it the sower's fault that he sows a seed in soil that isn't prepared to receive the seed, esp. if he doesn't know the soil is not conducive to growth? No, its not. I could go on and on with you, Cybermom, but I don't know if you'd ever agree. Inkorrekt, Joni Erickson Tada is an interesting case in point. I know she is a very godly woman, when it comes to her character, but I do not believe she exhibits real faith. The first thing you said that was wrong with with her faith walk was, "She accepted her illness." That statement is PURELY filled with unbelief. It is demonic to accept your illness. Real faith NEVER accepts your illness. Real faith is NOT MOVED by circumstances (and Joni WAS moved by circumstances). Yes, God has used her to reach millions who are handicapped, and who will stay that way until THEY receive their healing. Why wasn't Joni healed? That's the wrong question. Joni CAN be healed and WILL be healed when SHE exercises her faith and RECEIVES her healing. Where is God's power? ABLE to heal Joni RIGHT NOW if Joni will receive. What happened to her faith??? Joni LOST her faith for healing when she ACCEPTED HER ILLNESS. Its sad but true --- if you accept an illness, then you are denying God's power the opportunity to heal you. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 485 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
Cybermom, No, faith and receiving are two different things --- perhaps two sides of the same coin. The point that I am making is not to blame the "victim," that's a complete mis-read and mis-interpretation of what I'm saying. Its not entirely our fault. Look at the parable of the sower. Is it the sower's fault that he sows a seed in soil that isn't prepared to receive the seed, esp. if he doesn't know the soil is not conducive to growth? No, its not. I could go on and on with you, Cybermom, but I don't know if you'd ever agree. Inkorrekt, Joni Erickson Tada is an interesting case in point. I know she is a very godly woman, when it comes to her character, but I do not believe she exhibits real faith. The first thing you said that was wrong with with her faith walk was, "She accepted her illness." That statement is PURELY filled with unbelief. It is demonic to accept your illness. Real faith NEVER accepts your illness. Real faith is NOT MOVED by circumstances (and Joni WAS moved by circumstances). Yes, God has used her to reach millions who are handicapped, and who will stay that way until THEY receive their healing. Why wasn't Joni healed? That's the wrong question. Joni CAN be healed and WILL be healed when SHE exercises her faith and RECEIVES her healing. Where is God's power? ABLE to heal Joni RIGHT NOW if Joni will receive. What happened to her faith??? Joni LOST her faith for healing when she ACCEPTED HER ILLNESS. Its sad but true --- if you accept an illness, then you are denying God's power the opportunity to heal you. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 859 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.224.82.48 |
See, Krems can't really give an answer regarding why people aren't healed except that it is somehow their own fault or, in the case of children, the parents' fault. No matter how you slice it, there it is. IF it is God's will to "always heal" then whenever an individual is not healed it must be because of the individual since it cannot be because it's not God's will. Krems, you double-speak and either don't realize it or just won't admit it. Pride or ignorance. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2753 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
Morning mcmstaff78-I'm not sure if it's pride or ignorance or brainwashing but one day when a loved one who has all the faith in the world or when they themselves find they are terminally ill-then it hits them-that we don't control the odds-God is in control and to say that we know exactly how He would handle a situation is quite prideful... | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2754 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
"Its sad but true --- if you accept an illness, then you are denying God's power the opportunity to heal you" That is a killer statement right there..in fact in my mothers case she would NEVER accept or confess that illness and that really left some doors unclosed because she never was able to say-R I am dying and I want you to know.....no she just ..geesh this just gets to hard to write and to painful and I am sorry I wish I could say more but I am at work...this stuff is dangerous, it destroys and causes painful memories for loved ones I wish this teaching would just die away.. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 3194 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.2 |
Joni Erickson Tada is an interesting case in point. Krems, this whole discourse on Joni is so repulsive in so many ways that I just cannot comment without cussin. Maybe you should spend a little more time getting out in the real world and working for a living and quit posting this garbage on factnet. Your posts are truly disgusting. Your idiotic theology will bite you in the a$$ one day. MCM78, that's about as plain spoken as I can put it!  Rachel, blow him off, he is a lightweight. | ||
| miltietoast Senior Member Username: miltietoast Post Number: 1081 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.159.18.253 |
krems-- joni is healed, she is just rolling out her faith instead of walking out her faith. It all depends which side of the coin you are looking at. People used to want to pray for my headaches and I would send them away, I hurt to bad to walk out my healing so I took some aspirin. I am afraid you are going to find a job | ||
| miltietoast Senior Member Username: miltietoast Post Number: 1082 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 24.159.18.253 |
krems you get a cold and have the church pray for you and you get better in 4-5 days. someone else goes to the doctor and gets antibiotics and they get better in 4-5 days. Some peopl(me) do nothing and get better in 4-5 days. I have fifty plus years of observing this. Your line of non-work would call this precedent. You are praying and fasting for a job, your parents are praying and fasting that you get one,feel blessed you are not applying your faith to wheelchairs or you to would be rolling out your faith looking for that elusive job. The marines are looking for a few good men and one lawyer. you have been toasted milty | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 490 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
mcmstaff: Do you think God desires people to be sick? Or allows people to have illness??? Rachel: I don't know how to respond to you. I'm sorry for your negative feelings, but there is no negative in God. Matt: You're being carnal... I rebuke you! Miltie: No, if I get a cold, and get prayed for, I expect to be healed in 1-2 days or even IMMEDIATELY --- not in 4-5 days. | ||
| john_r_jones Senior Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 1705 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
Krems, you forgot Nanny, Nanny, Boo, Boo! Jonesee | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2513 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.8 |
It is all a dangerous fantasy. The Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer found that "Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications." Disregard these findings at your own peril. Who could quantify the incredible amount of needless suffering and death that faith healing is responsible for? I am personally aware of a great deal of suffering. Prayer does not work. Faith healers are charlatans and confidence-men. No evidence exists to support the notion that appeals to unseen forces can affect the psychical world. Unless someone can produce evidence that faith healing works it is wise to abandon this belief along with the one about burying a potato by a stump at midnight to get rid of a wart. I'm sure there will be plenty of excuses and rationalizations why you cannot accept S.T.E.P.s findings. The real reason is that dogma and religious thinking cannot accept scientific data that contradicts them. There is no mechanism for change in religious dogma. New information is discarded for old. For this shortcoming alone, religious faith should be abandoned. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 3199 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Krems, rebuke me all you want, as your words are about as effective as teats on a boar hog. The fact that you think there is magic in the "I rebuke you" just shows me that you have swallowed this WoF hocus pocus hook line and sinker. Instead of rebuking and disagreeing with people at every turn, it might be just a little wise to pay attention, as what you call carnal may be horse sense. Trainedobserver, I can only speak from experience as a 2 year fully recovered quadruple by pass patient. I have appreciated every prayer I could get. Religious dogma and scientific data don't do a lot for me, but friends and family who have prayed and assisted me have meant everything to me. Go ahead Krems, I need to know what lack of faith caused my arteries to get all clogged up. I actually think it was that Monster Burger Devil from Hardees. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 766 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
And show me in Scripture where it says that not being healed is our fault on some subconscious level. Not spiritually, but subconsciously. I reiterate. Show me and then we'll talk. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 492 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Wow, its the EN crowd AND the Ted Haggard crowd... Jonesie: Do you have a point: Trainedobserver (TO): Haven't I dealt with you regarding this in a different area??? I am STILL praying for you, TO, to be BORN AGAIN. Matt: I never said there is magic in the words, "I rebuke you." However, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, and I rebuke you for being carnal. Paul did the same in his epistles. Cybermom: All I can say is look at the parable of the sower and pray for the Holy Spirit to show you how it applies. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Advanced Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 861 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
JBK - yes, sometimes I believe it is God's will that people get sick and/or stay sick. Can we know when that is? Not generally. Do we pray? Yep. Do we accept when there is no miracle healing with patience and humility? Yep. Do we blame God or others or lack of faith? Nope. We just look to our own souls and pray God to illumine us and teach us what we need for the salvation of our souls. C'mon, Jonathan, explain James 4: 13 - 16 to me. At least try. You have never even attempted to explain that verse. And you can't, because it totally contradicts your whole "confession" nonsense and specifically states that when you speak that way you "...boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil." You've also obviously not read Jude, where the Apostle says "Yet Michael the archangel, when taking issue with the devil, was arguing about the body of Moses, dared not to bring a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"" Be careful the sin of presumption! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 494 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
mcmstaff: A few things. First off, I NEVER believe it is God's will for people to get sick or stay that way. Why go to a doctor or take medicine if you believe that??? I also believe it is NEVER right to accept sickness as a sign of patience or humility. That is called accepting DEFEAT, and is far from being Christ-like. James 4:13-16 --- sorry --- I never saw you ask about that passage. We need to look at this passage in its context, and specifically look at verses 16-17 (NAS), "But as it is, YOU boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. Therefore, to one who knows the right ting to do and does not do it, to him it is sin." MCM, James is addressing this passage to those who boast in arrogance. So, the kinds of people whom he addresses in verses 13-15 is the same kind of people in verses 16-17. These people are boasting, they are arrogant, they are acting in what we call PRESUMPTION. They are not being led by the Spirit of God and are in fact carnal. They say, in verse 13, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there, and make a profit." And probably (we don't know for sure) the Holy Spirit has not told them to do this. That is why James exhorts these boasters in verse 15, that they should say instead, "If the Lord wills, we will lve and also do this or that." James is inferring that these people are boasting and are not walking in the Spirit, they are not being led by the Spirit, either. They are in PRESUMPTION, and NOT FAITH. So, that's how I explain James 4:13-17, and it really does not apply to our discussion. And I have read Jude, and I do know what presumption is. Unfortunately, the other side of presumption is doubt and unbelief. The golden middle is FAITH. However, I'm not in presumption above. I am rebuking unbelief. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 3201 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Oh thank you thank you for the explanation, Jesus, er, I mean, Paul, I mean Krems.  | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.99.35.198 |
Right after you explain: Is 45:11 (God Instructs Us to "Command" Him) But you explain how and why "Sovereign" God would tell us to command Him? Also, please show the scripture where the God refers to himself as "Soveriegn" in the King James version. (The Calvinist translations will of course use this word (I think, I don't study the Amp. and NIV much) due to their emphasis on the Sovereignty of God, Election, etc. in their doctrine). Malachi 3:10 where God instructs us to prove (to test, prove, try) Him. Little us, testing God? How McM? Please explain. ------------------------------------------------- Now let's talk about James 4:13-14. Please harmonize James 4:13-16 with the following Scriptures (after YOU explain the two above ): 1) 1Cor2:9-10 (Paraphrase to save space) Eyes have not seen nor ears heard God's plan for our lives, but God HIMSELF has revealed these plans to us through the Holy Spirit. Please explain how it is blasphemy/boasting to tell others what God has told/shown you will take place. 2) Rom 12:2 You can know (prove) the good, the acceptable and even the perfect will of God? And if you know it, it is blasephemy/boasting to share it? 3) Acts 27:10-11 Paul says "I PERCEIVE this voyage WILL BE", etc. How dare Paul state what was going to happen, before it happened? In James, it says "Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow." How could Paul do this? 4) 1 Sam 17:44 and 46 David tells Goliath exactly what he was going to do to him, and how he would do it - then he did it. How dare he predict the outcome of the battle? He was boasting... BLASPHEMY. Do you want more examples of Boasting and Blasephemy by men of faith and valor in the Bible? Cuz I can go on like this ALL night bro, there are many, many more examples - but I sincerely despise arguing about the Bible. It is truly pitiful. For those of you who have lost family members, I am truly and deeply sorry for you. I have lost a sibling, other relatives and have an extremely handicapped/debilitated individual in my family... it is devastating and heartbreaking to see the devil at work according to John 10:10. But he is a thief and a liar, Praise God for Luke 10:19!!! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.99.35.198 |
PS You don't even want to get into that Scripture in Jude MCM, you couldn't begin to explain that. However, if you ever want to have some fun, let me know and I will tell where to start in the book of Kings... But let's get into that later, stick with the scriptures at hand and see if you can harmonize them with the points you have made. Thank you. | ||
| grace2u Advanced Member Username: grace2u Post Number: 817 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.178.195.217 |
Why are you saying goodnight to me? | ||
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