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Message |
    
Anonymous (198.29.0.182)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 8:47 am: | 
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What is known about it? |
Anonymous (209.235.170.254)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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It's related to the Latter Rain discipleship movements founded by Bill Britton & others. Sam Fife founded it. I was a member (?) back in the late '80's. |
Anonymous (168.243.243.202)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 12:56 pm: |
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Quiero saber más de Sam Fife y sus predicaciones |
Anonymous (66.42.225.238)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 6:25 pm: |
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Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 06:03 pm
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ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE
Preface and my editorial:
There are many scholars who have read the Christian bible throughout the history of Christianity and are well aware of the numerous passages of vicious and defamatory anti-Jewish polemic within it. In my experience, fundamentalist Christians are insensitive to the offensive nature of these texts and to the damage that their usage has done to the Jewish people throughout the Common Era. To deflect by saying that I must read it on my own and draw “my own conclusions” is a specious defense and does nothing to recognize the viciousness against Judaism that exists in your bible. Throughout history, people have been able to read the Christian bible and recognize its bias against Jews. Responding to what they are taught has resulted in pogroms against the Jews in almost every European country. Please don’t bother to duck reality by attempting to claim “They weren’t REAL Christians”.
Scholarly research starts here:
An increasing number of Christian scholars have concluded that the root of anti-Semitism in the Christian world community is ultimately found within the New Testament. In his book, Elder and Younger Brothers, the late Prof. A. Roy Eckardt [former Professor of Religion at both Lehigh University (PA) and Oxford University (UK), and an ordained minister], asserted that the foundation of anti-Semitism, and the responsibility for the Holocaust lie ultimately in the New Testament. The general message scholars such as Eckardt are trying to convey is that, using the New Testament as its authoritative source, "The Church" has stereotyped the Jewish people as an icon of unredeemed humanity; they became an image of a blind, stubborn, carnal, and perverse people. This dehumanization is the vehicle that formed the psychological prerequisite to the atrocities that followed.
Some Examples of Christian bible defamatory anti-Jewish rhetoric:
The Gospel of Matthew contains approximately 90 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.
3:7c The Pharisees and Sadducees are called poisonous snakes
12:34a The Pharisees are called evil poisonous snakes
15:3-9 Condemnation of the Pharisees for rejecting the commandments
15:12-14 The Pharisees are called blind guides leading the blind
16:6 Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees
19:3-9 The Pharisees are said to be hard-hearted
22:18c The Pharisees are called hypocrites
23:13-36 The scribes and Pharisees are repeatedly vilified as hypocrites
23:38 The house of Jerusalem is to be forsaken and desolate
The Gospel of Mark contains approximately 40 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.
3:6 The Pharisees are said to have begun to plan to destroy Jesus
7:6-13 Condemnation of the Pharisees for rejecting the commandments
8:15 Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees
10:2-5 The Pharisees are said to be hard-hearted
The Gospel of Luke contains approximately 60 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.
3:7c The multitudes are called poisonous snakes
4:28-30 The members of the synagogue in Nazareth try to kill Jesus
7:30 The Pharisees are said to have rejected the purposes of God
11:39-54 The Pharisees and Torah scholars are repeatedly condemned
12:1b Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy
13:14-17 The ruler of the synagogue is condemned as a hypocrite
13:35a The house of Jerusalem is to be forsaken
The Gospel of John contains approximately 130 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.
5:16-18 The Jews are said to have persecuted Jesus and wanted to kill him
5:37b-47 It is said that God's word and God's love is not in the Jews
7:19-24 It is said that none of the Jews do (what is written in) the Torah
7:28d It is said that the Jews do not know the One who has sent Jesus
8:13-28 It is said that the Pharisees know neither Jesus nor the Father
8:37-59 The Jews are said to be descendants of their father, the Devil
9:13-41 The Pharisees and other Jews are condemned as guilty
10:8 The Jews are said to be thieves and robbers
10:10a The Jews are depicted as those who steal and kill and destroy
10:31-39 The Jews are said to have picked up stones to throw at Jesus
11:53 It is said that the Jews realized that they would have to kill Jesus
11:57 It is said that the chief priests and Pharisees wanted to seize Jesus
12:10 It is said that the chief priests planned to kill Lazarus and Jesus
12:36b-43 It is said that most Jews loved the praise of men more than of God
16:2-4 (The Jews who) kill Jesus' disciples will think they are serving God
19:4-16 The Jews are depicted as insisting to Pilate that Jesus be crucified
The Acts of the Apostles contains approximately 120 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.
3:13b-15a Peter tells the men of Israel that they killed the originator of life
6:11-14 Some Jews are said to have brought false accusations against Stephen
7:51-60 Stephen shown as condemning the Jews for betraying and killing Jesus
9:1-2 Paul is depicted as planning the arrest of disciples of Jesus
9:23-25 Jews are said to have plotted to kill Paul
9:29b Jewish Hellenists are also said to have tried to kill Paul
12:1-3a It is said that the Jews were pleased when Herod killed James
12:3b-4 Herod is said to have seized Peter also to please the Jews
12:11 Peter is said to have realized that the Jews wanted to kill him
13:10-11 Paul is said to have condemned the Jew Elymas as a son of the Devil
13:28-29a It is said that the Jews had asked Pilate to crucify Jesus
13:39d It is said that Jews cannot be forgiven by means of the Torah
13:45-46 Jews are said to have spoken against Paul
13:50-51 Jews are said to have encouraged persecution of Paul and Barnabas
14:1-6 Many Jews opposing Paul and Barnabas and attempting to stone them
14:19-20 Jews are said to have stoned Paul, thinking that they had killed him
17:5-9 Jews are said to have incited a riot, looking for Paul and Silas
17:13 Jews are said to have stirred up turmoil against Paul
18:6 Paul said to have told the Jews, "Your blood will be on your own heads!"
18:12-17 Jews are said to have brought accusations against Paul
19:13-19 Jewish exorcists are shown to be condemned
21:27-36 Jews are depicted as seizing Paul and as trying to kill him
22:4-5 Paul says that when he was a Jew he had persecuted Christians
23:2-5 Paul is said to have condemned the chief priest for striking Paul
23:12-22 Jews are said to have plotted to eat nothing until they kill Paul
23:27-30 Paul is said to have been nearly killed by the Jews
24:9 The Jews are said to have accused Paul of many crimes
25:2-5 Jews are said to have plotted to kill Paul
25:7-11 Jews are said to have continued to bring accusations against Paul
25:15-21 Jews are said to have spoken repeatedly against Paul
25:24 All Jews are said to have shouted that Paul must be killed
26:21 The Jews are said to have seized Paul and tried to kill him
28:25-28 Paul is said to have condemned the Jews for never understanding God
Within the seven letters written by Paul and the six Pseudo-Pauline and Deutero-Pauline epistles are found four verses which constitute some of the most virulent anti-Jewish polemic present in the New Testament.
2:13-16 Condemning the Jews for killing Jesus and the prophets, and celebrating the suffering of the Jews now that the "wrath of God" has come upon them
Based on quantity alone, the Gospel of John appears to be the most anti-Jewish book in the New Testament, with Acts of the Apostles being a close second.
John 8:44,47(KJV) – (44) Ye [Jews] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye [Jews] will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(47) He that is of God heareth God's words: ye [Jews] therefore hear them not, because ye [Jews] are not of God.
1 Thessalonians 2:13-16(KJV) – (13) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. (14) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: (15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: (16) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
For the full article see: http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html |
james e. mcleod jr. (208.62.125.146)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 10:43 am: |
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-Brother Sam Fife was perhaps the most annointed ministry of our time. He passed away in a planecrash in south america about 1979-1980. Never have I heard a man preach the Bible from cover to cover as he did, preaching 2-3 hours every day and somes 2-3 times a day. Most criticism you will find will be from people who never new him and never listened extensively to his teaching. He was truly a modern day prophet. If you are searching for the truth, you will find his teachings very exciting to listen to. |
Anonymous (65.243.188.123)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:34 am: |
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James, Where are you today,are you still involved with the move? |
Ruth (209.161.178.214)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 4:21 am: |
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James is definately correct. I am presently involved with this church and know that though Sam Fife is no longer with us, the truth is unchanging and we are still growing and it is so exciting to see that God is working in so many lives! |
bev miller (164.119.63.38)
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 5:22 pm: |
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Brother Sam Fife was easily the most interesting person I ever knew, and I knew him from 1961, when he was in New Orleans outgrowing the Baptist church till his death in Guatemala April 26, 1980. Movites with computers?? What a concept. We didn't watch TV when I was in the Move, it was too Babylonish. |
Jean Chandler (63.93.96.62)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 3:34 am: |
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Brother Sam married me and my husband, David during a winter convention at "the land" in Alaska, in 1978. The father ministry (Sister Catherine, Sam's sister - my spiritual mother, Sam and Lee, Buddy Cob, and others) got snowed in and spent our wedding night with us at the house in Delta Junction. Brother Sam helped me a lot. Whatever problem I was having he would say "the blood of Jesus covers all that". It took me a while to get what he meant.
To the person hurt by anti-semitism, I would like to say that we, in "the body" considered ourselves to be "adopted" Jews. |
Anonymous (204.248.156.36)
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 6:25 pm: |
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The teachings from brother Sam helped me a lot on growing spiritualy. His teachings are very deep based on the spiritual meaning of the Word. If you really want to know what being in God is all about you should seek more about the Move. |
Rose Ong (216.254.159.107)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 1:02 am: |
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My name is Rose Ong (nee Girouard)and I am looking for people who are or have been involved in The Move, especially during the early years, say between 1968-1980. I am currently doing research on a book I am writing about the Move and have developed 3 questionnaires to assist me in the gathering of facts. Anyone who might like to help me out would be greatly appreciated. I can be contacted at rose.ong1@msn.com |
sputnik75043 (sputnik75043)
New member
Username: sputnik75043
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.142.160.221
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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We were involved (my wife and myself), 1969-1974.
There was a grave disservice, in my opinion, to the children of that time (my wife included). Since the Tribulation was supposedly SO close at hand, the parents were taught that it would do no good to have their children go further in any educational pursuits. My mother in law let my (future) wife drop out of high school, with no future college plans either.
Also - what I saw done to children, then (in the Dallas area), in the name of obedience and 'keeping them quiet' during extremely long services, I consider quite cruel. |
darren_gustafson (darren_gustafson)
New member
Username: darren_gustafson
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 202.61.71.254
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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I was raised on Shiloh, one of the Christian community farms in northern British Columbia, but I have not had much contact with The Move since I left there as a 13 year-old in 1986. I am very interested in learning more about what makes me who I am (a missionary serving in the Philippines), so I was very interested to read here of the book Rose Ong is writing. Unfortunately, when I e-mail her, my messages bounce. If anyone knows how I can reach her...or if they have things to share or other resources to help me understand...I would be most appreciative. |
jon_riche (jon_riche)
New member
Username: jon_riche
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 194.145.134.53
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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Darren,
I was born and raised at "The Land" in Alaska and lived in that community for nearly twenty years. I also went to the Move's college and have lived at Whitestone Farms (community) and now am still part of the Move in Blessington Ireland. If you get any information about that book, I would be interested. I would also be happy to answer any questions you have, if I can. Email at jon_riche@hotmail.com |
running_waters (running_waters)
New member
Username: running_waters
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.94.148.149
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
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My name is Ross Bracewell and I just discovered this site today. I knew Sam Fife, his teachings and beliefs and the "Move" exceptionally well. I joined the "Move" in early 1971 and started the "Move" fellowship in Montreal and was also responsible for the purchase (not with my own money) naming and heading up the development of Headwaters Ranch, which Sam directed to be put in my name. Headwaters, located 7 miles in on Mile 143 of the Alaska Highway in northern BC, was the largest farming community in the "Move" until I left in 1977, leading 70 others off the farm and out of the "Move". A number of other members from the groups in Ft. St. John and Montreal also left the "Move" at that time as a result of what the Lord showed me from the Word of God.
I was one of the full-time traveling ministers and preached to associated fellowships in every major city in North America as well as at every major convention that was held between 1971 and the Spring of 1977. I have many sisters and brothers in Christ whom I love dearly who are still fellowshipping in the "Move" or retain close ties with it. I had the privilege of preaching a message from the Word of God at a "Move" meeting at Shepherd's Inn (north of Ft. St. John, BC) in November 2003, which was received with great warmth and enthusiasm. After almost 30 years removed from my time in the "Move" the relationships that were established then are still the closest to my heart. There are few churches in North America that have the intensity of worship and focus on walking the walk that is manifested in the "Move". I believe that most who have joined the "Move" truly love the Lord but simply do not know the scriptures well enough to discern the doctrines held by many of their leaders.
Unfortunately, very few individuals in the "Move" have ever heard exactly why I left. I told Sam in advance that I would be leaving and explaining the issues before the farm and ranch community at Headwaters, giving him the opportunity to refute, if possible, anything I would be presenting from the scriptures. We held a debate that lasted nine hours (if my memory serves correctly) over what the scripture teaches about the end-time, final authority of scripture etc. Buddy Cobb, recognized as "second-in-command" in the "Move" under Sam, so to speak, arrived at the farm a few days before the "exodus" to answer any questions that would be asked by those thinking of leaving but I was not allowed at that time to respond in defense of my position. However, I had many opportunities to share privately from the scriptures with interested residents and there were a number of newly enlightened believers who were both bold and bright enough to ask the right questions.
Whether any reader will believe it or not, when Buddy Cobb was asked what happened to the body of Jesus Christ after His death, he simply stated that the body of Jesus Christ "went back to dust". Hearing those words while seated behind him with some farm elders I was so shocked I half rose and half fell off my chair as I pleadingly exclaimed; "Buddy, you are denying the resurrection." He quickly replied; "No I'm not." Seeing me in anguish over his statement and then seemingly "put down" by his response, I was grieved again as I heard laughter coming from some of the elders and members of the congregation. It was obvious that their allegiance to the leadership of the "Move" had blinded them to the significance of one of the most important doctrines of the Christian Church for 2000 years. In a private meeting with Buddy later I challenged him further on his statement. He related that he might have spoken a little hastily off the cuff and asked that he be given time to ponder the matter. I said I was happy to hear that because although I was leaving the "Move" for other very serious theological reasons I did not want to think they had parted from such basic historic Christian doctrine. Six months later a small group of us "ex-movites", as we were called, journeyed to Lubbock, Texas to attend the "Move" convention that was regularly held there between Christmas and New Years.
Raymond Yenkana, who had been the leading elder in the Ft. St. John "Move" fellowship before I shared with him from the scriptures where Sam and the "Move" had missed it, was one of those who made the trip. Raymond was a high school student under my ministry when I was Campus Life Director for Youth for Christ in Montreal in the late 1960's. He was one of six young men I was training in ministry to run some High School Christian clubs and he encouraged me to start meetings in junior colleges when he left high school to enroll there. Ray was with me in the very beginnings of the "Move" fellowship in Montreal, later becoming a leading elder there as God called me on the road to minister to other fellowships across America. He was well acquainted with my private discussion with Buddy and was eagerly seeking to hear his response to the question about the resurrection after six months. He met with Buddy without me because for some strange reason the ministry were no longer as open to having discussions with me on theology. Buddy made it very clear that he believed the body of Jesus Christ went back to dust, which is one of the main doctrines that has distinguished the Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult. The first time Ray discussed Buddy's answer with Sam Fife at that same convention, Sam said he felt that Buddy was wrong in that belief, but in a later conversation that week, Sam said that "maybe Buddy is seeing something that we haven't seen yet"
If you want to learn more about the "Move" and what was really taught I do not believe you will find a better resource. If you really want to find out where the "Move" and a great percentage of the North American church have been led astray on some major doctrines since the early 1800's please refer to these two articles on my Christian teaching website -"End-Times" and "Millennialism".
www.rejoicewithtrembling.bravehost.com -please excuse the "worldly" advertising as it is a free hosted site.
I am more than willing to answer any further questions from anyone wishing to know more.
Yours in Christ,
Ross |
freeat_lastl (freeat_lastl)
New member
Username: freeat_lastl
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.70.95.204
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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My name is Sheryl Leonard and I recently found this website. I was a member of the Move from 1971-1977 and lived at Headwaters Ranch for three of those years where I was a midwife. I believe that there was serious doctrinal error in Sam Fife's teachings, and I left for that reason. I have recently written a book about my experiences with my take on the group, called, To the Wilderness and Back. It is available through the publisher, Stephens House Press. You can check it out at their website:
http://www.stephenshousepress.com
(Message edited by freeat_lastl on August 07, 2005)
(Message edited by freeat_lastl on August 07, 2005)
(Message edited by freeat_lastl on August 07, 2005) |
carl2124 (carl2124)
New member
Username: carl2124
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.219.195.215
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 4:12 am: |
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My name is George Carlson,I was apart of Sam fife group from age of 10 to 18.I lived seven months on the Miss. farm and did a little time at Bowens Mill,I was supposed to move to one of the farms in Alaska but bailed out at the last second...I was apart of the Hollywood group from the start. |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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I was part of the Move in the mid-seventies and spent a number of years at a farm in BC. The best thing my husband and I ever did was pack up and move away. Although some family still are involved in the Move, we've never regretted our decision to leave.
(Message edited by terri_kay on September 15, 2005) |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
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The Move is based on fear and the end of the world. I am still waiting for the Communists to come down the Alaska highway and hold a gun to my head and ask me if I am a Christian and if I say yes, torture me or even kill me. Since I was taught all my childhood that this was going to happen.
I know TV is a tool of Satan, although apparently the internet is not!
I know that VISA stands for 666 and is a tool of the Devil, but wait, all the Movites have one now.
I know that beating a child in cold blooded anger is what the "God who is Love" would want.
I know Sam Fife will NEVER die, I heard him say it with his own mouth, over and over.
I know that the end of the world is coming with the one world government and the collapse of the world economy and the new millenium and if that doesn't happen I know that someone will think of something else that will destroy us all.
I know we should all live in fear and terror because you just never know when the big bad government/communist/economy crashing dude is coming to take us away.
I know all this because I was taught it day in and day out for ten years while I lived in those funny farms and you know, just because it didn't happen the first 100 times they predicted it, doesn't mean it won't happen tomorrow......... |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:36 pm: |
|
I lived at Blueberry when it was first started and later moved to Headwaters. I personally feel that when my parents got involved with the Move, it was the beginning to the end of any sort of a normal childhood for my siblings and I. Being in the Move literally damaged family relationships, destoyed families and took away rights and privilages that children are entitled to when they are growing up. These include the right to be loved, to be protected, to love themselves, to develop naturally in a safe environment and the right to protection from abuse. They took away our rights to an education. I have never seen so much abuse in my whole life. Little babies literally nearly smothered to stop them from crying during long services and beatings no child should have to endure. Children were so isolated that there was no one to turn to. Adults could not be trusted so who did they have to protect them. If I were to write a book on things that went on while living at the farms, "normal" people would be appalled! I see movies and read books that shock others and the contents just roll off of my shoulders because I have lived many of these nightmares. We were told God was a God of love but we never saw that love. That is why so many who lived there and left turned against God. It was too confusing to seperate the God they preached from what may possibly be a true God of Love. Many years have gone by and I have seperated myself from the Move since the month that Sam Fife died. My parents are still involved and although we have a relationship with them, it is not the type of a relationship that I would want to have with my children. My children have grandparents who love them but really don't know them. I love them but do not really feel like I have parents. I am not saying that there were no good people in the Move, there were but they too were blind-folded and if they did see wrong, did not do anything to stop it. Many people have had their lives torn apart by the Move and the people who were in charge. All I can say now is that it is a bad dream from the past and although I have moved ahead and have built my own life, there are still areas in my life where the past overshadows the present and just can't be avoided. Our children, who have never been a part of it, in small ways are still affected by it. I often wonder if those who influenced the whole Move and the exodus to the "wilderness" ever took into consideration this would have on individuals lives and generations to follow. But then on second thought i guess they really did not care because after all, was the world not supposed to end? |
cwcp (cwcp)
New member
Username: cwcp
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.49.170.6
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 12:54 am: |
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I am shocked to read about the comments given by God's children. They accused the ministries of God based on their limited understandings and experiences. Though there is freedom of speech in the country, remember, God will judge every word that we say. Worse if we touch God's anointed.
I became part of this move since 1979. God called me into it though I am from a Far East country - from a small city that can't be seen on the world map. As far as I know, the ministries from this Move have a calling to join people to the Lord and not to themselves. They preach about holiness and righteousness - not of themselves, but God's. We in this Move are free people as long as we stay in the Spirit or in Christ; as is promised by the Word of Jesus,"You shall know the Truth, and the Truth will make you free." The time when we are under bondage is when we walk in the flesh and in sin. So don't blame others but examine ourselves. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. God bless you. If you like to contact me personally, this is my email address: drtsan@gmail.com. Only those who sincerely wish to know the Truth are welcomed to write to me. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 2:38 am: |
|
Perhaps half of the problem here is that no one wants to know the "truth". To say that accusations are based on "limited understandings and experiences" perhaps one could define the word "limited" because I can assure anyone that I personally would not say anything unless I knew it to be the gospel truth. I lived it, and they were definitely not limited experiences. And then again, they are not "accusations" either, they are "facts" and truths. And God will judge those who wronged every innocent person who got sucked into that life, particularly those who were too young to make their own choices or to protect themselves. Are they to blame themselves for what they could not control? To be honest with you, if you joined in 1979 then you missed the wildest Move years, by then the tidal wave had already begun to recede. Sam Fife was dead, which was not supposed to have happened apparently, the world had not ended, God had not struck us dead, and hundreds of followers had taken their blinders off. I am proud to be a survivor, I am proud to say that I got away and I think God is proud of me too. I have learned that I don't have to live in fear and that it is okay to be proud of my accomplishments and to teach my children to love themselves and to take pride in what they do. And I don't worry that God will judge me for that. I think he would give me a pat on the back. |
cwcp (cwcp)
New member
Username: cwcp
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 219.93.192.238
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 11:37 pm: |
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Dear niwk,
Thanks for your explanation. When I used the words 'limited understanding', I was referring to our carnal and human understanding when we are not enlightened by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit does not reveal a matter to man, he won't be able to see the spiritual things of God since God has created man out of dust - and therefore man is 'limited' in everything, not just in understanding.
By 'limited experience', I mean it's only based on our personal, individual and even self-oriented judgement and perception about what happens around us. With the same experience, one can give thanks to God and another can murmur and complain. Among the twelve spies who spied the promised land, 10 came back with bad reports but only Caleb and Joshua had faith to face the fact that there were giants in the land and yet God had promised them the land and therefore they were well able to conquer the land. There are always two sides to a coin. It depends on whether we see things in our own perspective or God's perspective. There are many others who are happy living in the community and know that God is fulfilling something of eternal values in their lives - not just earthly accomplishment.
As for child training, God's way or biblical way is still the best for Godly families. Even God Himself chastises His children whom He loves. I would rather train my children to love God more than themselves rather than just mere loving themselves.
I am not saying that God will judge you. But He will definitely judge every word that we said. So, I would rather not touch God's anointed. Even when Jesus was on earth, the religious teachers of His time accused Him of being possessed by demons! So things will only be made manifest on that day when God remove the veil from the nations as well as from His people. However those who desire to know Him and follow on to know Him will be able to see things according to the extent that God wants them to know. The key principle is again, 'God resists the proud but give grace to the humble'.
God bless you. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:18 am: |
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I do not think that there is any possible way that any "enlightening by the Holy Spirit" could have changed any understanding or experiences of what we lived through when we lived at the farms. How can the Holy Spirit enlighten you to understand or experience child abuse for anything other than what it is. It is a matter of knowing what is right or wrong and not hiding behind God or scripture to condone what was done. Children should not have to live in fear. Yes they should have respect but they should also be respected. I don't really care what kind of a family life someone has or what religion they are or where they live, children should not be treated the way kids on the farms were treated. I am not saying it does not happen elsewhere, it does, but these were people who claimed to be Christians and they robbed us of our right to be children. I don't know if it still goes on, but I know that it did. It was wrong and no amount of scripture or preaching will ever change that fact. |
jon_riche (jon_riche)
New member
Username: jon_riche
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 194.145.135.242
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 8:54 am: |
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For the record, there are some of us who were brought up in the Move and are very thankful for that background. I'm sure that there has been abuse, but the vast majority of child discipline done in the Move (in my experience) has been done in love and based on sound scriptural principles. Focusing on the few instances of physical abuse draws attention away from a much more serious and common form of abuse, the refusal of many modern parents to set boundaries and effectively control the behaviour of their children.
Physical discipline as practised in the Move is not abusive; it is Biblical, and, with all due respect to "niwk", it remains the only proven way to raise a child in security, not fear. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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I love the way everyone from the move justifies everything by saying it is done in "love". A great cop out. Anyone can find a scripture in the bible and interpret it to mean what they want it to mean. It is a shame that people use God and the bible to justify their behaviours. I agree that there are many non-move parents who don't know how to raise children. Common knowledge. After what I lived through I was determined that I would never physically hurt a child to get my point across and my children would not live in fear. My children are proof that you don't have to beat a kid to discipline them and they can still turn out ot be wonderful, responsible adults and probably a lot more stable than some one who has been abused. And there were more than a "few" instances of abuse in the move, it was pretty common practice in the 70's, ao please don't make excuses for them.
Child abuse was not my only issue with the move, it was just a big one out of many. I think the whole issue is that those of you who are still in the move, you don't want to hear the truth. You don't want the world to know that there are people out there who can biblically disprove your theories and beliefs and probably shake the foundation out from under your feet. You don't want people to know things that went on in the early years because they were wrong. I am not saying that in this day that things are the way they were back then. They may or may not be. many messed up people use scripture to support their actions. That is the nice thing about the bible. You can find something to support anything if you look hard enough. I think people who are curious about the move have the right to know that it is not all it is cracked up to be. If those of you who are in the move think it is great, all the power to you, it is a free country and your life. It does not matter to me. Just don't try to underplay what other people have to say because as much as you want to deny it and use scripture to support it, abuse is wrong!!! Whether it is physical, emotional or sexual. It is wrong!!! And it is wrong for children to grow up in fear, whether it is fear of adults, fear of God or fear of their world around them. Children should have respect for their parents, I agree, but not live in fear. And I don't think that God would want people to be afraid of him either. I think "respect" and "awe" but if he is a God of Love, then not living in fear. Children need to feel secure and loved. So saying that physical discipline is the only proven way to raise a child in security,not fear is not true. There are millions of young people in this world who have been raised with out physical discipline and they are very secure, balanced, responsible individuals. If you want to say that something is the "only Proven way" you better be sure you know what you are talking about because it is not.
When I came on to this message board, it was to state my experience, that growing up on the farm, in the move, was detrimental to my family life, hurtful to me and my siblings and many of the other children who lived there. it was a nightmare experience and no matter what you say, you can not change those facts. There are many people who would witness to what I said. My children are still affected in this generation because they do not have a normal relationship with their grand-parents since they are still in the move. Do I let what the move did to me and my family control my life now? Absolutely not!! I picked up the pieces and made a life for myself as did all of my siblings. But I still can not ignore the fact that the move and the farms were a nightmarish part of many people's lives and anyone interested enough in the Move to read discussion boards such as this deserve to know the whole picture!! |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
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niwk, trying to get these people to admit they are wrong is like trying to convince a Muslim terrorist that what they believe in is wrong. After all their fundamental belief is the same. They are the only chosen ones. No matter how much fear and hardship they endure during their life means nothing because when they die there is a glorious reward awaiting them...(that is, of course, if they die!!! LOL) Imagine 100+ million Muslims and however many Catholics and Jews and Baptists and Buddhists etc. will all be dissappointed because a couple of thousand Movites are actually the "ONLY" chosen few. HAHA (How arrogant is that really?)
Anyway, as I said, they are just as hard to enlighten as an extremist Muslim for the exact same reason. They have wasted so many years of their life being brainwashed by fear and terror of the "End Times" that now admitting that it was all a big scam would make them look stupid for wasting their lives. Nobody likes to look stupid so they must hang on to the very bitter end and just hope hope hope that Sam was right about at least one thing. (I don't suppose that one thing that they hope he was right about was his statement "heaven is for losers"!)
Remember, these people are following leaders that have either stated emphatically that they would not die, then crashed into a moutainside, or live in a mansion in Georgia or other luxious places while their followers are banished to the frozen tundra of northern Canada and Alaska living in log cabins and eating one step up from dogfood while saving their pennies so when the "travelling ministry" run a little short on vacation funds they can come through and tell some more predictions that will never come true and collect some more cash for their exoctic trips.
Just because, as in any case in life, once you get out from under that horrible cloud or bad situation, it is so clear and easy to see the corruption and manipulation, but when you are still in it, you just can't see it and don't want to.
So yes it is good to allow outsiders that may stumble onto this board to see the truth, but don't waste your time with the funny farmers, they are too busy believing that they are the "chosen few" and the type of people that chose that life have to have something to hang onto and it is better that they have the Move to hang onto or they may end up in a place like Jonestown, or Branch Davidian or another Charles Manson cult or something..... at least so far it is better anyway.............. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
New member
Username: carl2124
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.219.163.190
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Lets see,Im 44 now,and have been out of the "move " since my early twenties,I still have friends in and out of the "move".I think a lot of the old timers,Joe Mcord and others were way off base on their predictions of the end times,Im glad I Didnt go to a farm in Alaska,I would not completed my trade school and would have had no way to support myself now. |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 11:47 pm: |
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Once thing I learned from being in the Move, is that if you pray long enough, the rain will stop. It might take days, but it is guaranteed to be answered. |
dondi (dondi)
New member
Username: dondi
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 69.233.195.11
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:12 am: |
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Once thing I learned from being in the Move, is that if you pray long enough, the rain will stop. It might take days, but it is guaranteed to be answered.
Tell me terri_kay were you being samrteliky? Sounds that way to me. If so, I think I like you |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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You are so right terri_kay, same as predicting the end of the world I guess in 10 million years or possibly less, that may happen too!!!! |
ron_kiers (ron_kiers)
New member
Username: ron_kiers
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 142.59.175.250
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
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Sam Fife was just another Preacher. His message was false and that is fact. I was there when he stated that he would never die. He did. Sam Fife believed he was God and I believe that's why he died. I have no fear of "touching the Annointed". Sam was self annointed. I'm sure he believed his message of fear, but the facts prove he was wrong. The "Movies" acted like he was God and blindly believed everything he said. That's very sad, because his ideas destroyed many lives, and for what. His message was based on fear. Fear is destructive. I know because I was there and I lived it for 7 horrible years. I sat through 100's, if not 1000's of hours of sermons telling me how horrible this world is and that only the Movies would be saved from Hell. I experienced the beatings, and they were not few, they were several a week for the most trival mistakes. The beatings came from several sources and love had nothing to do with any of them. Anyone who believes it's right to beat someone, whether you love them or not, is sick and needs serious help.
The Move is just another Cult led by self proclaimed "Ministers" with a false message. Their biggest crime was as it always is with Cults. They took money from the poor to support their fabulous lives, most of which were lived in Florida. That's not a new idea, there are 100's of Crooks out there using that tactic. John Clarke, another self proclaimed Minister will be remembered as the most shameless crook of them all. He stole from people in God's name. Shame on them. And if there was any truth to there sermons, perhaps they'll pay for those crimes.
Sam Fife may have been a nice guy as some have said. I never saw that side of him. The 2 times he lowered himself to talk to me was because I had this sinful attraction to girls and he didn't take that very well. Imagine such a crime!
It surprises me there are still people following the Movies. After all these years and broken promises you'd think they'd wake up. According to everything they preached I sure wouldn't be here today. And I am.
Ron Kiers |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 1:35 pm: |
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Well said, Ron.
I just finished reading the book by Sheryl Leonard. It is an excellent read and filled in a lot of gaps. Never having been involved with Headwaters, I didn't realize the exodus with Ross had happened. I had heard that Ross left but when I read the book was the first time I understood why.
Reading the book, which I highly recommend to any "ex-moveite", made me realize a couple of things. There was a whole group of adults who truly believed they were hearing from God and went into the Move with open eyes.
Then there were older teenagers who moved because they were part of a family and basically had to follow. That group didn't have it too bad as there generally were many their age and as is normal for that age group, their peers and social enjoyment took priority. I was part of that group. For the most part, we were left alone so long as we took part in meetings and didn't make waves. I realize now after reading the book how little I really understood of what was going on.
As the years went by, we wanted more freedom and found boyfriends and girlfriends, walked out our year, got married and then suddenly realized we could not raise future children in the environment we were in. We didn't like having to request the elders' permission for almost every trivial event, even down to were we allowed to go into town to shop.
Then there were the younger children who got the brunt of moving. In a large sense they were guinea pigs, and were subject to orders from almost everyone around them.
Even babies were called "beasts" and it was very important to get rid of the beast in the children. Babies were almost suffocated in meetings to teach them to not cry. It was important for them to not cry for when we had to move in "deeper" to hide from the government.
The kids that were preteens when moving there and stayed till later years, for many the day they turned 16, were treated the worst. They like the older teens likely had very little idea why they were really there and only felt the negativity directed to them.
When you throw a large group of people together a lot of things happen. We were witness to, and later heard of horrible things that happened and were kept under wraps. Older men dallying with lonely teenage girls, teen boys not being directed and not having enough positive influence raping teen girls.
And children were spanked and pushed around and generally received no respect at all by power hungry people.
It is a tribute to all of us that have managed to make good lives for ourselves despite our experience with the Move. |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 207.6.198.115
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
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Interesting that the people defending this cult can spout nothing but garbled religous phrases... nothing like avoiding reality. But then again that's what they have all done for years! The truth hurts. |
infreedom (infreedom)
Junior Member
Username: infreedom
Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 67.141.91.248
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
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We recently left a group that was once affiliated with the Move. This group says they left the Move because the Move was becoming too worldly and Charismatic, but I doubt that that is the whole truth. I think it's more likely that the leaders of our group clashed with the Father Ministry and were "invited" to disassociate. But most of the doctrine is similar or identical. I never met Sam Fife or lived on one of the Move farms, but I've read the Grey Ledges sermons and many others many times and used to know most of Buddy Cobb's Plan of God pretty well. I thought a lot of it was weird, but I didn't think it really mattered. I thought that because the people appeared to be pursuing holiness, it would all work out. But "appeared" turned out to be the operative word. It was all about appearances. There was little or no reality. So for 10 years of our son's growing up time, we did next to nothing to prepare him for college and nothing at all to prepare to pay for it or make any provision for him. We even did little to share our faith with him because of Buddy's teaching that we ordinary people can't be expected to understand and explain the Bible without the Father Minister to rightly divide it for us. (Why didn't that make me as sick then as it does now? At the time, it just filled me with fear of saying the wrong thing, so I was paralyzed into saying next to nothing.) We encouraged our son to become involved in the cult and have hurt him badly. We also lost most of what we worked our entire lives for, including our home and much of our retirement. I know that is nothing compared to what others have lost, but I want to emphasize how even an interest in these cults, even if the family doesn't move to one of the farms, causes grave harm. The worst of it was not financial, but it's still a little fresh to consider very fully. I want to read the book that was mentioned earlier in this thread and will be ordering it. |
charris73 (charris73)
New member
Username: charris73
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 67.70.202.99
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 1:42 am: |
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I grew up in the "move" and having read some of these post wonder if I am in the same church? No matter where you go in this world you will find horrible things being done. If you put alot of people together it is bound to be more magnified. I saw some crazy philosophies in the early days, but there is a balance now and I have seen too much fruit in the people I love and live with to say this way of life is wrong.... |
cwcp (cwcp)
New member
Username: cwcp
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.48.46.157
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
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charris73, there are always good and bad ones in any church. The kingdom of heaven is a mixture. There are the sheep and goat companies. Even among Jesus' disciples, there was a Judah who betrayed Him. Most important of all is to know our calling and fulfill what God wants us to be and be thankful to His call at all times. Among those who are called, the ones that bear fruits are those who walk worthy to their call and willing to lay down their lives for the love of Christ. The others (who walk in the flesh) will be unhappy and even become bitter when they find it hard to humble themselves to surrender to His leading. God bless you. |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.59.144.23
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 10:27 pm: |
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You are right cwcp, there are good and bad in every church. There were many good people in Jonestown. The problem comes in when the leaders are the bad ones, as they are in your corrupt little cult.
Just hope you don't get asked to drink the Kool-Aid.................
Also, it was Judas who betrayed Christ, not Judah, read before you write.....
I am happy that you have found bliss in laying down (read, wasting) your life for the Sam and Buddy show but why don't you spend some time going back to tapes from 25 years ago and listen very carefully, document time lines and see how full of it they were and are. Or, just follow like a lamb to the slaughter as they so hope you will..... |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
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The Move has likely evolved to be a kinder gentler religion, however don't forget at whose expense.
One way you can prove you have evolved to a better people, is look after the people that poured all they had into providing a physical home for the farms.
These people are aging and would have been comfortably retired by now. Look after them. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 11:57 pm: |
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What I find very interesting is the type of people that the move attracted. Once again they were not all bad, some were just sucked in due to being naive, but a lot of them were true scum. Disrespectable in their old life and yet accepted into this new one. But it did not change who they were. It just gave them a much more private way to live their disrespectful lives and get away with it. All they had to do was ask forgiveness after the fact. It was ok to beat your children and to humiliate them any way you wanted to. And it did not even have to be your own children you abused,it could be anybody's kids because we were all one big happy family, were we not? Whether we liked it or not. And while our God fearing parents were busy building a life with God and their new family, teenagers from these dysfunctional families were raping little girls. How do I know? I was one of them.. at 10 years old. Not once either. Our God-fearing parents were too busy with the move to care to hear what we tried to tell them and then again, no one was really dealing with reality anyhow so communication and trust between parents and children was not too great. So when it finally came to light and had to be dealt with, it was the 10 year old female who was beaten nearly to death, likely to save my soul, and the poor boys had to go for a day with out food and water and pray for forgiveness. I don't think God even sees justice in that. And then wham, our homes were sold and out to the wilderness of B.C. we went... of course dirty little secrets were better kept there, hidden away from the real world. Did it stop there? Maybe not to that extreme but life did not get much better. And guess who else God called to the same farm? The same dysfunctional families... imagine that.
When Ross Bracewell left with his group, and many other young couples and young families left, the elders got worried. See, if all the youth left, who would carry on their insanity? They decided to keep us there by making our lives an even more living hell. If we had a good friend, it was the devils doing and friendships were severed. We were accused of everything under the sun whether it was true or not. Elders, who were supposed to be our leaders had such dirty minds that if they kept accusing teens of innappropriate sexual behaviour even when it was totally untrue and unproved. But if they said it, it had happened because God spoke through them and so the accused were punished. We had no defense. I remember at 15 being accused of having sexual behaviours or what ever to my younger brother. Imagine that! That particular elder must have been really bored. My brother and I got hauled into a meeting with Sam Fife and his wife, Buddy Cobb and his wife and John Clarke and his wife. I could not believe my ears. I told them that if any one in the move were a bunch of perverts it was the adults and the elders, not the youth. My brother and I walked out and refused to speak to them anymore. This kind of behaviour did not just happen to my family. It happened to a lot of us. No one knows or ever will know what all happened to me because it is too shameful and embarressing to even discuss. No one should have to live through this sort of humiliation. I grew up hating my parents and everyone else, and even hating myself. I really wanted to kill myself to end this nightmare. I prayed to God to rescue me from this nightmare but then again, the God they preached was not a God of love and it was because of him that I was in this situation. So I learned to hate him too. I finally escaped and through a lot of hardship have rebuilt my life. Has my life been easy? No, it is hard to rebuild something that has been totally dstroyed. Do I go to church? No, I have tried but it is still hard to trust in a God when it is hard to believe that he is not the God they preached, because I want no part of that one. My children go to church and I have protected them from these vultures who have damaged my life. I have even forgiven my parents because I realize how brainwashed they were and still are. I don't base my successes or my failures on that influence on my life because I take responsibility for my own direction. But I refuse to let these people think that what they did was right. It was wrong and shameful and I know they will have to answer to some higher force someday whether it be God or something else. I know not every one lived the same experience, but I know a lot of the kids my age and younger did.
So movites can post their scriprures and ramblings all they want to justify life in the move, there is nothing they can say to justify what was done to us when we were in the move.
In response to what Ron said about John Clarke being a shameless crook, I have to say that I was a first hand eye witness to that. He was great at blackmail too. His wife was no better, but then again, I guess she had something to benefit from his takings. |
ron_kiers (ron_kiers)
New member
Username: ron_kiers
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 142.59.175.250
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 12:28 am: |
|
CWCP, I believe I've heard that sermon a 100 times, the only thing missing was the collection plate immediately afterward. It is laced with the same pomp and cynicism it was the last time I heard 25 years ago. It's easer to make sense of what is written between the lines than the actual words. I must say the message within the message contains a healthy dose of bitterness to those who have a different view on things. It would be interesting to hear what you actually think and not just a collection of phrases from a Sam Fife sermon.
Your absolutely right their are good and bad ones in every church. Though I would never confuse a Cult like the Move with a church. In the case of the Move however, the good were duped into giving the money and the bad were those who took it. The good were the ones living in fear and the bad were those preaching the fear. The good were the kids taking the whippings and the bad were those doing the whipping, etc.
I know I shouldn't, but I will assume that the worn out phrase (who walk in the flesh) is directed at those like myself who have found a better life with real love, happiness and void of the fear the Move cherishes so much.
I'd be interested in hearing from anyone what the latest predictions are for the end of the World. The last I heard was back in the late 70's and it was the Communists who were going come and kill all but those who gave their money to Sam Fife and moved to the bush. Who has taken the Communists place now that they have self destructed? Back then the time frame between doomsday dates that came and went was roughly 2 years. Has that changed or have they spaced them out a little longer? Do they still have rules like the girls have to wear dresses below the knee and the boys have to cut their hair above the ears? Is TV and radio still prohibitted?
As Mark Twain said, "Let us be thankful for the fools; but for them the rest of us could not succeed".
Ron |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
|
Good point terri-kay, however, why the heck would they want to look after those people. They got what they wanted from them already,they have sucked them dry, what good are they to them now?
Plus, if they close their eyes and hope they go away, maybe God will take care of them. To hope that a guy like John Clarke would give back part of what he stole to look after the people that he stole it from, is just not in God's plan for his retirement budget.
Maybe Thievin John could go back on the CBC and take all the credit for Blueberry again. Remember John, "Though shalt not lie"...... |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Personally, I think that the move people should buy these people (the ones who had a lot and sunk it all into the move) a nice little home in town, now that they are elderly and should be closer to medical help if they need it. After all, you are right Terri-Kay, these people would be comfortably retired now and they provided a roof over the moves head all these years. The least they deserve in retribution is a nice place to live and a little bit of convenience after all they gave up so others did not have to pay rent anymore or pay any bills. Speaking for my own parents, not only did they give up everything they ever had, or have it ripped out of their hands, they also worked their fingers to the bone. They may not be complaining because they have been brainwashed and are likely grateful for what little they have. But if the movites want to prove that they are as wonderful and caring as they seem to think they are, then prove it. Look after these people and let them live in comfort and not have to worry about how to pay their bills. Let them be close to help if they need it. Let them have the money to live with a few of the conveniences that they so readily deserve. It is not just a matter of convenience of life, it is a matter of safety. Give back some of what you took. If it were not for people like my parents, the move would not have had farms in the wilderness to run away to. The move owes them. Let them have the money so they can spend some of their remaining years enjoying their grandchildren and living in comfort. Many others who are still in the move live in nice homes, drive nice vehicles and travel. They are still at an age that they can earn money to do so. My parents are older, have worked hard all their lives, before and since the move. They are not able to go and get a job and live comfortably. The move took everything from them, I would like to see them get something back in return. They deserve it!! |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 207.6.198.115
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
|
To darren_gustafson - You mentioned not being able to contact Rose Ong - her email is rose.ong@primus.ca
For others here are some websites of interest:
http://www.anabaptistchurch.org/canada_journal.htm
http://www.benisrael.org/articles/An_Expression_of_Loving_Concern.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l28.html
http://www.isotsurvivors.info/
http://members.tripod.com/~lorgrd/home.html
(Message edited by tried_tested&FALSE on August 22, 2005) |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
|
This is the first time I've ever posted on any message board -- much busier than most people unfortunately.
I have listened to years of disenchanted ex-Move people complain and whine about their lots in life -- so it's my turn to respond.
First, you people have far too much time on your hands -- you might actually be much more successful in the world at large if you dedicated as much effort to a career -- I have, and am living proof that a free market economy rewards one pretty well for hard work and a positive attitude -- you guys should try these on!
Second, get over your doctrinal issues -- you're gone, it doesn't matter. If people choose to believe something, it's not your job or place to convince them otherwise.
Third, it makes me sick to hear people complain about their parents going to the farm and giving all their money, etc. Most of the people I've seen who've had any gumption have done pretty well financially after leaving the farm. Also, some of us kids who were totally educated in Move schools (and whose parents gave everything) have also done pretty well. My parents stressed the value of education. I think the people who told their kids they shouldn't get an education probably didn't have much of one themselves and were merely carrying on the tradition of ignorance that they would have in the "outside world"!
Four, the whole issue of child abuse/lack of love -- boo hoo. Like this never happens in the outside world! I too think it's appaling that any of this could happen in a Christian setting -- but I blame the parents. Most of these people would have abused or "not loved" their children no matter where they'd lived. Any parent who would abuse a child (or tolerate the abouse) in the name of God is weak and, in my mind, useless. My parents never felt the compunction to abuse me (or tolerate abuse) even though we lived on the farm.
I (like many) had very good experiences both as a child (in the 70s) and as an adult in these communities. I know it wasn't all perfect, because people (imperfect) were involved. I believe, however, that a large part of any success I have today is as a result of my time in community -- I learned hard work and toleration and understanding towards others.
IN summary, with every life experience we should take the good and discard the bad -- go forward with a positive attitude.
So whiners; why don't you take a holiday from your bitching for a year -- dedicate the same emotional and mental energy to your careers, families and community (maybe a plug for a community service org here! -- the one I'm in is fantastic). You'll find that after said year you'll have no need to whine any more -- you'll see amazing changes in your life. |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
|
Not every one left the move. There still are people that gave all that are involved and have and are giving their all as their way to serve God. They still do have earthly needs.
I rarely think of the move, but it is amazing that when an old would gets scratched, no matter how old, it can still hurt.
Also, the success after leaving the move isn't even an issue. We're doing quite well thank you.
As for whining, to express oneself once in 25 to 30 years doesn't sound too excessive to me.
I'm glad you had good experiences in the Move. I had some too. But a lot of people have next to none.
So put the horse whip down. Try to dredge up some Christian love, (I know it can be hard) and realize yours isn't the only, and not necesarily the "right " opinion. It is so much a matter of relevance.
Actually you sound arrogant and unfeeling. Hard to believe your life is all that great. |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
|
Terri Kay,
My post was a general one, not addressed specifically to you -- you can see however, that everyone who has left and feels it necessary to "express themself" always brings up one or more of the points I mentioned.
The purpose of my post was twofold: 1) to see how quickly someone would respond -- i.e., how much time are people dedicating to events that happened so many years ago? Your post appeared 18 minutes after mine -- wow. 2) More of a question I guess -- why do people keep all of this alive? The only bad experiences the majority of people had were "bad elders meetings" or (as ron kiers, above) being accused of something (horrible) he didn't do -- that must have been hurtful, but do a few hurtful events warrant this much discussion now? It seems like a drastic measure, but wouldn't counselling be a better solution? To state the abvious, people who were never involved with the Move also have had bad experiences (many much worse than some false accusations or anguish re: doctrinal differences) -- they get counselling -- they don't band together and post all the gory details on the internet.
I'm not arrogant and unfeeling, just want to understand what's gained by all this.
And, my life is great -- I thank God daily for my wife (non ex-Move) and my children. My life's not always easy, but I can't see how it would be improved by talking incessantly (as some, not you! do) about past wrongs. |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:24 pm: |
|
I find it absolutely hilarious that this person seems to think that anyone who has anything negative about the Move must be uneducated, unsuccessful and unhappy with life in general.
All of the people I continue to stay in contact with have been quite successful once they left the Move. We've had our hard knocks and have had to learn the hard way in many situations because we weren't raised to deal with the" big bad world" reality on the farms.
(However, it doesn't take a CGA to realize that it is extremely hard for someone to find a great paying career, or pursue an education once they have reached their 60's&70's!)
I had the good luck of missing the 'early' days of The Move. I think for any of us from the younger generation who did miss the 'good ole days' it is very small minded of us to assume that bad things didn't happen to others just because they didn't happen to us!
My growing up years were MUCH different then my older siblings. My parents loved me very much. I have MANY great memories of my growing up years that I wouldn't trade for the world! Yes, education started to become important again in the late 80's and I was lucky to receive one. (Although it meant absolutely nothing when I chose to pursue a post-secondary education later in life)
I too learned hard work and toleration and understanding towards others. I believe that is why I am so successful in my career!
I have learned that "Christians" in general (and proven here again) are the most condescending, intolerant, assuming, judgmental and 'filled to the gills with hypocrisy' people around.
I have also learned that I like to surround myself with people who are positive, grounded, caring, non-judgmental and have a grip on reality.
I do dedicate emotional and mental energy to my career, family and community... but I type over 60 wpm... so it really doesn't take a whole lot of time/energy to put down a few words here and there!
You are right terri_kay "arrogant" perfectly describes this person! |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:41 pm: |
|
P.S. to last post -- It was NIWK who was falsely accused -- my error.
Also, to NIWK -- who beat you for what happened to you? Your parents? As a father myself, I can't imagine a father who would stand by and let his daughter be beaten after suffering so much already. I can assure you -- any real man, no matter how much he tried to turn the other cheek, would exact an immediate reckoning from any boy who did such things to his daughter.
Why on earth would your parents stay in a place that, as you say, in other words, "encouraged" such things?
You also say that "our homes were sold" -- meaning, I assume, that your parents sold them of their own free will -- or not?
You see, as mentioned in my first post, most of this comes down to bad parenting or choices your parents made with which you disagreed.
Unfortunately, the same things might still have happened if you had not been on a farm -- your parents would have found some other excuse to be incompetent, inattentive parents.
Which comes to my main point -- people who allow this kind of thing to happen to themselves or their children for any reason are weak-minded and easily led. I think it's logical to infer that people like NIWK's parents would have been equally misled by other influences whether or not they had lived on the farm.
Maybe alcoholism or other substance abuse, maybe pornography, maybe other addicitions like gambling, with the accompanying socio-economic and family/abuse problems that result from these things.
I know someone with much the same story as NIWK (the abuse) but I have a friend who saw this person's father in action back then -- lifting his son off the ground and kicking him so hard in the backside so he swung back and forth. Not exactly the kind of parent who'd be looking out for his kids, and obviously the kind of person who had some issues of his own! If he did this kind of thing in public, what was he like at home?
You see, parents are responsible and accountible before God for their children, in my opinion. It is not the responsibility of the church to ensure that children are protected -- it is a responsibility given by God to us, as parents.
If I as a parent allow myself, as NIWK's parents, to shirk this responsibility, there will be negative consequences in the lives of my children. I belive this even though I live in a town and lead a "normal" life. I think NIWK and people like her need to place the blame squarely on their parents' shoulders. They are accountable. |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 3:25 pm: |
|
"The only bad experiences the majority of people had were "bad elders meetings""
I guess we are forgetting the rapes, the beatings, the mind control, the brainwashing and the seperation of families.
It is a well known fact that cult members are taught not to question the teachings, practices, or ideas of the leaders, so I do get where you are coming from ghstill.
It's so sheltered of you to think that people don't band together and "post all the gory details on the internet". I know the internet is new and everything to those in the Move, but there are many millions of blogs/websites out there on EVERY subject both mental and physical.
(Fat people have a fat people blog, stupid people have a stupid people blog, religious people have religious sites... I don't think any of us are out of the norm!)
It's actually good to know that we are not alone out there... There's not too many people in my current life that I share events of the past with.
I do not dwell on the past often, in fact next to never, but it still doesn't change the fact that we all went through this... that is reality. It's nice to have people we don't have to explain things too and that there are others out there that 'get' it!
As for myself, I have no bitterness for anything done to me... my life is awesome now, I have no complaints.
The only frustration I feel is for the older people being put in 'old folk's homes' once they can no longer pull their weight on the farm. Or the people dying of cancer who are convinced that it is wrong to seek treatment, and when they finally do, are given no support by the community they have dedicated their sweat and blood too. |
ron_kiers (ron_kiers)
New member
Username: ron_kiers
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 142.59.175.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
|
My, my ghstill, a little pent up anger I see. Still have a little of that Move mentality going on there. You would have made a good Elder.
I didn't see lack of success mentioned in any of the previous posts. It's certainly not an issue for me. Sounds like you'd like to compare bank balances to determine who's the better person. That's funny. Some people actually have great success without spending every minute of the day at it. Obviously your not that fortunate. What they do with their spare time is up to them. If telling their story and opinions is their pleasure, good for them. You seem to have an issue with people who express their opinions and share their experiences. Too bad for you. When you become the Moderator you can decide what people can and can't say. Until then read and enjoy and respond as you please. Free speach is a great thing and it obviously won't always be to your liking.
Believe it or not their are Adults who gave everything to the Farms and when their wallets ran dry were pushed aside like yesterdays trash in the name of God. That's fact not opinion. To suggest that someone in their late 60's or older could simply start over is ignorant and insulting. Perhaps if they were a Doctor or Lawyer, but you'll notice the vast majority were folks who used their hands to make a living. So yes the Move does owe those people some support. That would be common Human decency, Christian or not.
Curious how so many will excuse abuse by suggesting it happens in the outside world as well. The difference is these people profess to be Christians. It's wrong and inexcusable period. Don't know were you lived but where I lived it happened regularly and it wasn't only by the Parents. It came from Elders and Teachers and any Parent who objected would have been dealt with swiftly. I'll be the first to admit I was a hand full and tested them regularly.
So welcome to the internet where people can post as they wish. Maybe it's good therapy, or in this case a response to someones curiousity about the Move and Sam Fife.
If you've learned to be tolerant as you say you have, show some tolerance to those who choose to speak their piece. Calling them whiners says more about you than it does them.
Ron Kiers (My real name)
P.S. You may have picked up on this already, posting with the hope of a response isn't an original idea. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
|
By the way, ghstill, you are still involved with the move so of course you would defend them. And as Terri-kay indicated, we do live busy successful lives, so if you want to have the truth ignored, I can certainly understand why. Also by the time you were old enough to get an education, they had outgrown the idea of making an education taboo!!!
Also to point out, my parents were quite successful before they joined the move. They gave their all. They just really believed everything and bought it..hook, line, and sinker. So it was not a matter of them never believing that an education was important, they just followed the so called word. We too learned hard-work and toleration (because we had no choice). I have also learned to understand other people, if not I would not have the successful career I have today. I could have learned that without having to witness all the horrible things I had to witness and endure at the farm. I do not, however, understand how people can abuse children and I never intend to understand that there is no wrong in that. You are right, there is abuse out in the real world as well, no doubt about it, but at least our government does not tolerate it, and children do have protection from it , if they have the courage to talk to someone about it, or if some one suspects it. In your self-governed move, the children had no where to turn, and no one cared. That is the difference. And it also was not always the children's parents who abused them. It was a well known fact that as we were all one family, any adult or elder had the right to discipline a child in whatever way they saw fit. The methods many of them used were abhorant and if you were spared that, I am happy for you. Complaining to our parents would not have helped any, it would have made it worse as we would have been singled out for more abuse. There are enough honest people willing to admit it happened that even you, who were likely in diapers at the time, can not deny it.
For people like us who care enough to speak out, that is not whining. We just want to make sure if people make the choice to get sucked in, they don't do it with blinders on.
I too am glad that your experiences were much better than ours. Maybe, and I pray I am right, things are not as bad as they were back then. That does not change the fact that it happened. You also had a few more advantages than a lot of other kids had seeing as your dad made good money in his business. Maybe you should give some of the credit of your success to that little factor.
It still does not give you the right to tell us that we cannot express our experiences and to give people the opportunity to take a second look at what they are becoming interested in before jumping in head first.
In reference to what you say about "people (imperfect) were involved" with the move. They are still there, for the record!!! So don't blame the parents. Many of those parents were too busy running the farm and feeding all the people to even know what was going on. Many of them did love their kids, they were just too busy and too brainwashed to remember what love and parenting was all about.
I too suggest you get off your high horse, try to find a little love and compassion in your heart and understand that your tunnel visioned opinion is not the only one out there.
In addition to what Ron Kiers said, I might add the career of 'accountant' to his list of careers that a person could fall back to. Ring any bells GISTILL? |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
|
OK, OK!
I thought I could express an opinion without all this hoopla!
Please let me respond --
Ron Kiers,
I didn't say any of you were unsuccessful, as has been implied. I just think that people need to get help if they have suffered this way. This would definitely be more productive (emotionally, etc. and yes, even financially) than wallowing in the past -- this is only my opinion, however.
It's obviously true that someone in their 60s or 70s would find it impossible to start over. But, again, they chose to stay that long. I went to Blueberry for college in my early 20s, but realized that I would not be satisfied splitting wood for the rest of my life. THat, and the fact that I needed to find a way to support myself are some of the reasons that I didn't stay. THere were others, to be true.
I'd like some idea of where the $ would come from to repay the people (like my parents) who put their entire savings into the farm? Most of the farms in the FSJ area still exist, with a few of the same people on them. These people run the farm and seem quite happy there, even in their retirement years. It wouldn't be my choice, but I don't think we should second-guess them -- they seem happy!?!
Ron, I'm not angry. Your approach is healthy and open -- I have no problem if you disagree with me on the whole issue. I just happen to know a few people who blame the move for everything -- that's what I was really trying to express. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
|
Maybe the farms could take out a mortgage and use that money to repay those who sunk everything they had into it. What a novell idea. I would think someone with your financial background could have thought of that, ghstill. |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
|
What you must realize ghstill, is that in the early days, there was no schooling available beyond a person's 16th year, when they could legally quit school. Dropping out was not a choice. It was a fact of life.
The fact there was a college in your early 20's, pretty much puts you in diapers when a lot of the above was happening. (Which you may be greatful for.)
Also, a lot of the parenting methods were not chosen by the parents, but preached from the pulpit and if the parents didn't act, the elders were likely too.
Things have obviously changed, which I am very happy about.
Sometimes it is okay to agree to disagree, but let free speech remain, which I see you are more open to now.
Most of us have taken the attitude that when you're old enough to complain about it, you're old enough to change it. I know I have.
One person's reality isn't always the next person's, but let's at least respect that about each other. |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
|
tried_tested false
I don't know about "the rapes, the beatings, the mind control, the brainwashing and the seperation of families." Were these things encouraged by the elders? I understand that bad things happened, but didn't realize that it was so prevalent or systematic. Both my parents were elders at Graham River Farm and even my father, who no longer has anything to do with any church has ever mentioned any of this.
These definitely don't happen now. Like I said, I spent 3 years at Blueberry, near FSJ, BC in the early 90s and really enjoyed it. I can promise you that if I had heard or seen any of what you mention I would have been gone. I had some disagreements with certain elders there, but nothing that caused me any anguish. Can you open your mind and accept the fact that the few people that still live in these communities do not engage in these things?
As far as the older people being put in homes, I don't know of the specifics of this, but there are so few people on the farms any more that I don't think they'd have the resources to care for people. I think it's terribly sad that any older person is put in a home, whether on a farm or not. I just don't know what the options are when they begin to need constant care. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
New member
Username: carl2124
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
|
I was posting here to see if anyone I grew up with and have lost touch with was still around,the debates on here dont concern me,though I read them.
For my part,there was much love shown to me and my family,and many I will never forget who by the grace of the good Lord were positive input to my life.Yes,there were some stupid things and doctrines,but those were minor things I had yet to go through in life,and still yet to go through.
Every day above ground is a good day for me  |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
|
NIWK
You're right, I probably was lucky. But, as mentioned above, I chose to "re-leave" the farm when I was 25. Yes, a lot of the same rhetoric existed then as earlier. "Community was the only place to be, etc."
Unlike some people, I chose not to stay. The people who chose to stay obviously would not have the opportunities when they left that we young people had. I'm just surprised they didn't foresee that, that's all.
You have the advantage of me as I've used my real name. Yes, I'm an accountant. The idea of a mortgage as you suggest would probably not go far to remunerate anyone. A few hundred acres in northern BC isn't worth much, and the 65-75% of that value that a bank would advance would not help the hundreds (perhaps more than 1000) people who've passed through each farm, not counting, of course, the people who are still living there. You'd have to account for time spent as well as $ contributed, of course, as labour has a value. Additionally, it would be a huge clerical nightmare to sort the whole thing out, which would cost so much time and, no doubt, accounting fees (not mine, I woudn't touch it!).
Maybe people should accept that they put their lives into something that they no longer believe in. No one has become rich off them, to my knowledge, so there's no one to sue, even if one had grounds.
I'll open up here. I sometimes think back to Graham in the mid- to late- 70s with fondness. I think of the optimism and utopian dreams everyone had and think that I wish I'd experienced it at an age where I could have been more involved. My hope would be that I would have left before I had reason to be bitter. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
New member
Username: carl2124
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
|
at my age of 9- 12, "In the early days" the teaching at that time was to move to the endtime farms and forget about education.....remember,the tribulation was coming like in 3 to five years. |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
|
carl2124
at last, someone else with decent experiences
I concur that "Every day above ground is a good day for me" |
carl2124 (carl2124)
New member
Username: carl2124
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
|
Yep, I just bought a Harley 1200 custom,and Im just at the place to enjoy life a little bit,I havent been to church in years,having spent countless hours and time "under the pulpit" .It doesnt mean that I dont still read the bible or dont have a relationship with the lord,but after the move,Im a cynic to men who get behind a pulpit and expect trust....not on my watch. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
|
Encouraged by the elders? They ran the joint. I don't think encouragement is the right word. Rapes, no, that would not have been encouraged, covered up maybe, and disbelieved but not condoned or encouraged. The rest of it? Who do you think called the shots? Also there were some of the elders who had some perversions of their own and used their authority to act on them. Some of them are gone. If I had been of an age where I could have left before having reason to become bitter, I would have. Not many survive too well out in the world on their own between the age of 10 to 16. That choice was not an option. And I am not bitter. I have forgiven those that have admitted their wrongs and asked for forgiveness. Not many have or would admit their wrongs. I know my parents would change a lot if they could go back and do so. But like Terri-kay says, even old wounds still hurt if they are scratched. There are people who have truly benefitted at the expense of others. I don't think everyone should be repaid. Many people had nothing when they came to the farms and were fed and housed while they lived there and had no bills to pay. I think we are referring to those who had lots and paid for everything including feeding hundreds of people for years until they had nothing left. I do not believe the move will look after them when they need looking after. If they do, I will be shocked!!! |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
|
"The rapes, the beatings, the mind control, the brainwashing and the seperation of families" were all things that happened to people very close to me, not just words I've strung together.
I never insinuated that these things still happen on the farms, as you said there are so few people left. In fact as you stated I too have many fond memories of growing up.
The older people I am concerned about are people who DID NOT leave the move... in fact are still VERY involved. Just the original $$'s that they bought the farm with would be enough to let them live out the rest of their lives more comfortably... I'm talking about things like... dentures, hearing aides, proper transportation to dr's appts sometimes a plane trip away, help in the upkeep and repair of their homes...
Things you and I would take for-granted because we bring in a good salary...
But pension cheques just don't go very far...(although I have been amazed at how much they have had to be stretched)...that is reality.
Oh and by the way: as far as these things not happening anymore....At this moment I know of someone attending 'the move' meetings, who molested his daughters and sister-in-law. He has been welcomed into the church with open arms, is considered a 'good' Christian and has even been remarried with the blessings of the Move. |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
|
tried_testedfalse
My last post of the day -- the original $$ these people brought may not still be available to distribute to them !?!
You say that, in effect, you know someone who's comitted a crime! You should contact the elders wherever this guy is and let them know. Don't you think that they deserve to know in order to "break fellowship" with this guy? |
carl2124 (carl2124)
New member
Username: carl2124
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
|
Hey everyone,I just had a vision, I saw the sky falling and a I heard a voice from the sky say.."go back to the wilderness"... any takers LOL. |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
|
Tried_testedfalse:
Does this man even admit that he what he did was wrong or accept responsibility for his wrongdoing? I know many like him do not. Are the people in this group aware of his actions? |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
|
carl2124
Lead on, my friend! :-) |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
|
Oh they know about this. They knew about it when I lived there because I told them.
They have chosen to ignore the facts... they have taken his word over that of the victims.
I know it's hardly believable... but it is true... and it's in your own community ghstill.
(Message edited by tried_tested&false on August 24, 2005) |
carl2124 (carl2124)
New member
Username: carl2124
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
|
If the facts are true, tried_testedfalse than you did what you could do.... |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
|
It is believable.. sad to say. Who knows, ghstill, you may even sit across the table and sup with him on wednesday nights |
ghstill (ghstill)
New member
Username: ghstill
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
|
tried_testedfalse
THIS is my last post of the day!
It's very hard in an open church to prevent anyone from coming through the door. I can say that during my life I've heard rumours swirl about so many people -- I can't belive they're all true.
THere's also the Christian ethic of forgiveness, but I suppose that would require the person to confess, which he may not be willing to do. Even so, they should probably be kicked out, and should also face the legal consequences.
What I'd suggest is that the victim(s) write a letter or directly inform the elders of the guy's church in some other way. They would then have grounds to address the issue. This would be much better than relying on hearsay. For obvious reasons, however, the victim(s) in these cases usually don't want to open up about what happened.
I'll quote scripture here. I think that "rendering to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God, etc." applies not just to tax, but to the law as well. If someone commits a crime, that crime should be "committed" to the appropriate authority. This would make it much easier for the church. In the case of sexual abuse, however, it's so hard for victims go through this process. Still would be the ideal way. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
|
Does anyone know how many farms are active north of the States now? And if so,are there many people still on them? |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Post Number: 6
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Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
|
Wow, too bad I was working so hard trying to get as rich as ghstill, I missed out on all the good stuff.
ghstill, no-one wants every social degenerate that ever stumbled into the Move to get a payday. Most of them could not survive in the real world and were there to get a meal and a bed.
The people who should get a payday are the ones who physically bought and paid for the actual land before it was taken from them from the likes of John Clarke by manipulation and threat of eternal damnation.
They should not be left to fend on their own and maybe God may will that some of those greedy buggers may actually help them fix their leaky roof without charging them for it. Oh no, I guess God would rather John Clarke have a new motorhome or something.
Also ghstill, I notice that you are an accountant and as one exMovie to another I was wondering if I could bother you for some acounting advise? You see I was wondering if the CRA would think that it is clean and above board to pay the people on the farm a salary that was just below the minimum taxable income level and then have them in turn repay it back to the farm (without the farm claiming it as income)therefore allowing the farm to evade taxes?
I was also wondering if you could interpret some scripture for me and I paraphrase from memory, Jesus said: "give unto God what is God's and give unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's" What do you think that means?
Also, could you tell me who does the books for Blueberry? Does any of this explain the successful lifestyle alluded to earlier.
Lastly, do you know the name of a good auditor in Ft St. John for the CRA? If not should I just call any office in BC and ask them to call you???
What do you suggest?
On another note: Every day above ground is a freakin wonderful day for me but contrary to everything I was taught I am not too worried about the ones below ground either. After the examples that were set for me I think God will be quite pleased that I didn't screw other people in God's name, he might even give me a club seat in the great hockey arena in the sky!! LOL |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
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Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 8
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Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
|
ghstill:
"rendering to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God, etc."
Interesting that you brought this up in association with crime & the law...
Talking about taxes.... I seem to remember having $6,000 deposited into my bank account at the age of 17 and then having to write a 'donations' of the same amount back to "the church"!
Something called tax evasion???? Isn't that a little interesting crime all on it's own...
What would be your opinion as an accountant...or was that during your father's years?
As far as the sexual abuse, it appears that the victim's have chosen to move on with their lives without pressing charges. But it doesn't change the fact that it happened and that the elders know about it. And how can you preach love and justice and expect people to want to associate with the move when things like this exist?
You really think writing a 'letter' would make a difference... Come on... give me a break! |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
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Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 9
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Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
|
Carl - All the original farms Blueberry, Hilltop, Evergreen, Headwaters, except 'Shiloh' still exist all though minimally... compared to the 'roarin' years of 200 people, most are lucky to still have around 20 left, and they actually build BRAND NEW modern homes for the 'young' people (and obviously allow the internet now too) lol! |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 14
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
|
Maybe it will just have to wait until he gets brave enough to find another victim and tries it again.. I really believe in 'once a pedophile, always a pedophile'. Probably will happen and when it does,some other young girl's life will be destroyed. And if the elders know about it, whether the victims have pressed charges or not (it is difficult to press charges against your father, more so than a stranger), should they not in some way be held accountable for ignoring the facts? |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Post Number: 9
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Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
|
Thanks for the info tried..... Internet? Me thinks Sam would be rolling over in his grave to hear that..LOL |
ghstill (ghstill)
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Username: ghstill
Post Number: 12
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Posted From: 209.121.67.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
|
Doomsday,
I'm not rich -- just that I devote a lot of my energy working towards it (now I'm LOL!!!)
All
Re: the tax stuff -- can't give any opinion online (sorry)
NIWK/triedtested false
I just wish that there were more than the allegations of people unrelated to the situation -- I'd hate to be held accountable of anything on hearsay, as I'm sure you would
Anyway, you guys are so much fun I've broken my word about leaving for the day (twice).
Fun gettin yall revved up.
I may drop back in a year to see if all the same stuff is flying around. |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 15
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
|
Carl... I don't think Sam could have rolled over too hard. other than the fact that this is occurring in the wilderness... after all, Buddy Cobb had a widescreen TV in his mansion in Miami many years ago, when we were all pumping water from a hand pump, wringing out clothes by hand and using outhouses. Yuk!!! I am sure Sam did not fare any worse than Buddy did |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 16
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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ghstill, that is the difference here... what we have said is not hearsay... Facts only!!! |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Username: doomsday
Post Number: 7
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Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
|
I wonder why you won't talk about tax info on the internet ghstill? A little concerned about evidence maybe??? We were just asking the opinion of an accountant on tax law, I am sure there would be no risk in just stating facts would there.....LOL.
Also as you read this tonight, remember, white lies are as bad as dark lies, a year ain't up yet and here you are.......
Now, where is the number for CRA....hmmm blue pages........ |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 10
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Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
|
Im not going to enter the debate about "abuses and facts".It is not that I dont care,but I have learned to speak from my own experiences and I respect each input here.
But for me,facts are to be proven in a court of law,and until than,there can be legal ramifications and liabilty until an allegation reaches that point.
(Message edited by carl2124 on August 24, 2005) |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Post Number: 9
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Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
|
carl, I suppose if you were the one that got poked and groped by some sick pig you may have a different view on what is and what is not a fact...... |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
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Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 10
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Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:32 pm: |
|
Sad to see you go GStill -
I will miss you in the next year as I try to take your advise and pick up the broken pieces of my lives and dedicate some emotional and mental energy to my career, family and community.
Hopefully after said year I'll have no need to whine any more -- who knows I may even see amazing changes in my life.
I'm hoping to be off the streets and at least living in the local trailer park by then...of course months of recovery will be necessary first, and I'm not sure if they have the internet in rehab so I may not be able to update you during that time.
As for my corner downtown it'll be a tough thing to give up but who knows...
God works in mysterious ways, and with the shining example of god's love and encouragement you have shown today...Wow, life could be good after all! Please keep me uplifted in your prayers! |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 11
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Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:37 pm: |
|
No doom, I never was,the hate that you show ....why? because I said facts of alligations should be proved in a court of law? |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 12
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Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
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The point is .....if this those things happen to me...yes it would be fact to me if my testimony is true,but that doesnt make it fact on public place were I could be sued if someone wanted to do that.
That is if names are named etc... |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Username: doomsday
Post Number: 10
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Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
|
you are confusing sarcasm with hate there carl, however, like I said, if you were the one getting mr piggy's mr wiggly you would not be so quick to insist that it is not a fact until a few lawyers win that argument.
I have no hate for you, I have never met you, I just think it is unfair to tell someone who has obviously been abused that it isn't true until they can prove it in court. Life isn't that simple. |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Username: doomsday
Post Number: 11
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Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
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who is naming names CARL? |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Username: doomsday
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
|
at least I think I have never met you, did you live on one of the farms in BC? |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 17
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
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A fact is a fact whether a judge and jury say it is so or not.. If I murder someone and get a good lawyer and he/she gets me off the hook.. does that mean I did not do it?
By being raped or even beaten as a child.. living on the farm there was no one to tell that would help and so how would the legal system help? Does that mean it did not happen. That is such a load of crap. And at any point later in life.. while some do choose to still press charges and go to court.. they have to live through hell all over again. It does not change what happened. I don't think I would be too worried about anyone suing me if I named names, which I choose not to at this time, they know who they are. It is funny enough just watching the panic in the faces of some of these now grown-up married men whenever I see them and they nearly shit themselves because they think the truth may still come out. They don't want their wives or churches to know that they are not the model citizens that they pretend to be. For now, that is a form of retribution I can live with. And not even they need a court of law to prove that they did what they did!!! |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 19
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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Are you a lawyer Carl? |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 13
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Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
|
Sorry doom, I mis-read your note, I thought you were implying that those things were done to me.I have no reason to call anyone a liar,nor will I do so....but speaking from a legal point of view,one could be sued for dafamation of character,if these things were not proven in court,I like to keep my assets...
I do know of one father who abused his daughter in my group, I guess the elders dealt with it,but Im not going to be specfic for legal reasons....I was 13 at the time my friend told me this. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 14
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Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
|
Hi niwk...No Im not a lawyer,but I love to study the legal system and have been to court on a "pro se" case.I love what you can do when you can run down lawyers if you do your own homework,knowing the civil rules and how to apply the law.. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 15
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Posted From: 68.215.202.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
|
Hi Doom...No I never went to the canada farms...I was in the Hollywood group,Buddys group, and at the time Sams group was in South Miami....then I went to the Miss. farm for 7 months.I was to go to a farm in Alaska but got cold feet at the last second. |
ron_kiers (ron_kiers)
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Username: ron_kiers
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 142.59.175.250
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
|
Come on now Doom, a few questions on ethical accounting practises and you've scared Mr.G off for a whole year.
That's just nasty.
Ron |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Username: doomsday
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
|
Yeah, must be burning him though, cause now he can only read here but can't post or he'll look stupid for pretending to go away for a year.
Maybe he needs a year to clear up any statutes of limitations LOL!
Carl, if you had gone to Alaska you would have gotten to know what cold feet really were...
Doesn't it seem weird that all along they were so scared of the communists but not only did they move as close as they could to them and still stay in North America, but they patterned their whole religion after the communist blueprint..... |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
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Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:22 pm: |
|
According to the CRA website:
"They will not be penalized or prosecuted if they make a full disclosure before the CRA starts any action or investigation against them."
.... Better get on it people!..... |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 20
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:28 am: |
|
What I find interesting is how, if the farms have so little money, making it so impossible to compensate the original purchasers..(or even just help them live comfortably and safely) .. how can they afford all the luxuries that they now have? From what I understand, their houses are quite modernized and they have most of the conveniences that we have while living in cities. I don't think they drive hunks of junk either. Some even have planes. The list goes on and on.... If they are just breaking even, where did all this come from? |
brightside (brightside)
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Username: brightside
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 146.63.202.119
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:04 pm: |
|
You people are SO "interesting".... It has been quite an enlightenment. What is most comical is the fact that though you seem to believe in "freedom of speech" and that you are all merely expressing facts mixed with opinion, you will attack anyone who seems to comment contrary to your opinion and you have no problem completely filleting and belittling them in any measure possible. Even stooping to throw things in their face they had no control over - eluding to someone's parents and the decisions they made - (NIWK). You all speak of Christian love and what all these people should do to make amends for the terrible things they've done, but how can anyone reading your posts take any of you seriously when you can stoop that low. It's amazing how you can "dish it and not take it". The beauty IS freedom of speech, but look at you all bark at ghstill for his view points. I say, Good for you, ghstill! You go!
Bad things did and do happen - but change also happens. Aww, such a bright thought.
Oh ya, and even ghstill's refererence to the idea that the same discussion will be going on in a year got quite a rise! How hilarious.... no joking on this posting, right? And that you even take it so seriously that you say he'll 'look stupid' if he posts... I suppose we must all agree these are serious times and matters... Anyone thinking of jesting - Beware!
To be clear, I don't think anyone who was aware is making light of the fact that things happened in the early days that were wrong. Most movements have their good and bad. It just appears 'small' to assume things are the same when you left 15 + years ago. Not negating the truth of hurt people/families. At the same time, there are a lot of good and healthy people that were a product of the same movement.
It's quite intimidating to post comments.... but here goes... Have fun, everyone! |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 21
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
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Brightside....
If you could read... maybe you might notice that no one has denied the fact that things may have changed over the last 15+ years or so. As a matter of a fact I hope they have. I personally do not believe there is such a thing as Christian love.. either you are capable of love or you are not..
And if you are so quick to make judgement.. ghstill was quite quick to throw judgement for things he knew nothing about... he changed his tune.
And speaking of blaming parents.. well I blamed them along with everyone else for a long time, at least they were capable of admitting their wrongs and asking forgiveness. You obviously know little about the control the elders had over everyone. I really don't care what anyone's opinion is... I am entitled to mine. And I really don't care if you agree with it or not.
I also do not negate the fact that good people have come out of the movement. I can assure you that me and my siblings are proof of that as we all turned out GREAT regardless of our experiences.
If you have not walked the walk.. don't talk the talk!!!
I am not trying to be intimidating... Just stating facts. If you don't like them... don't read them. It is a free world... unlike the move. And I still have close enough ties to the move to know that some people have not changed and likely never will.
Do some research.. perhaps brainwashing and manipulation would be a good place to start. I am sure you could find lots of decent reading on the internet and in the library.. if you have access to one. Happy reading |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
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Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 207.6.198.115
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
|
I don't think you read back far enough in the post 'brightside.
"eluding to someone's parents" was actually mr. still's chosen form of conversing with NIWK at the very beginning of this whole post... I think the comments he made regarding NIWK's parents were pretty harsh, considering he doesn't know who they are, and if he does know them, even worse! That NIWK responded in kind only admits this person's humanity.
As far as joking is concerned... I don't know 'bout the rest of ya'll but I've sure got a hell-ev-a kick out of this whole thing...I guess sarcasm doesn't count as joking though, so from now on we should do as niwk and ensure 'all' present know we jest ' . (Just so you know this means funny... haha!)
Again go back and read before you assume we are all 'old' Movites! (15+ years ago....I was just a baby!) You will notice by my previous comments that I have VERY different (and obviously much better) memories than many on this post...
I also know from first hand experience that not everything has changed. In fact I have friends that have also "fallen" (ie: left the Move/farm) recently who have been severely hurt when current Movites no longer continue contact with them. I grew up being told people who left were 'bad'.... only to have discovered now that they were really nice, decent people who just didn't agree with certain things.
Even in your very short post the underlying tone of distain towards those who have chosen to speak out is apparent, and I understand it well because for so long I felt the same way.
I also see on a daily basis the gaps in the Move's 'support' system (sorry, is there one???) and it disturbs me.
No, there is nothing that can be done to change the past, but there are people and situations still around in the present that need to be assisted and dealt with.
Tell me how we can take you all seriously when you let pedophiles 'walk in your midst', and neglect the seniors still serving in your communities.
Just friendly curiosity brightside...why did you leave the farm? |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 17
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Posted From: 68.209.9.178
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 2:08 pm: |
|
http://members.tripod.com/~lorgrd/home.html
I thought this ladys experience sums up the early days.....I enjoyed reading it.. |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 22
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 1:59 am: |
|
I actually just read her whole story at that site. Awesome and brought back a lot of memories. Knew a lot of those people. Actually the gentleman who died at Graham River, we knew him and years later I had the privilage of seeing his kids grow into teens. Very sad that they had to grow up without their dad.
I found this story very interesting and hearing what her kids told her in later years reinforced my own experiences, even though they had their own unique experiences. Wow, do I remember crossing the Graham River, used to terrify me!!!
Another good reading is the book "To the Wilderness and Back" by Sheryl Leonard. As I was fairly young at the time my parents got involved with the Move, I have often wondered how people who lived normal happy lives managed to get sucked in. Reading her book helped me to understand to a degree how it happened. I think that people who fall for it must be looking for something in their lives. For what reason? Could be a million different ones but that little bit of vulnerability opened the door enough to allow this cult to move in.
It is good reading and I think explains a lot of events. Obviously it is just one piece of a very complicated story but a way to fill in a few gaps. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 18
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Posted From: 68.209.9.178
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
|
Hey niwk....how did that gentleman die? I forgot how every one used to have to get "visions" before they could go anywhere... |
niwk (niwk)
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Username: niwk
Post Number: 23
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 3:27 pm: |
|
I believe a coleman gas lantern exploded and he got burned really bad. I know at the time Scarlet fever was also contracted at Graham River and my understanding was that he may have had it in conjunction with serious burns. I was quite young at the time (12 or 13) so obviously was not told all the details but that is also what I gathered from others who knew the family well in later years. I never asked his wife for details because it was a rather sensitive story (obviously) and not talked about a whole lot. Very sad though. |
carl2124 (carl2124)
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Username: carl2124
Post Number: 19
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Posted From: 68.209.9.178
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
|
One thing in that story that caught my attention was that they had 14000.00 dollars after they sold everything,but after they got up there,they were broke....I guess they gave all there money to farm?
For what, to leave and be "shunned"by others..?
I would think after all that effort,that would come across as cold to me.... |
niwk (niwk)
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Post Number: 24
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Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
|
They were not the only ones that happened to. i feel for them and I also feel for those who gave much more than that and ARE STILL in the move. They are now (some of them) in their late 60's and 70's and living (not on the farm necessarily, some at Shepherds Inn and places like that) and they are still very active in the move. They struggle to live off a government pension, too old to work. They have to have to stretch their meager dollars to cover lot rent, mortgage, car payments, utilities, food and living expenses and all the extra expenses that come with aging...hearing aides, glasses, trips afar to see specialists because there are none in Fort Saint John. I know they could have retired very comfortably if they had not given everything to the move. I think the move should be covering many of those expenses. I agree that they gave the money but what some don't seem to want to understand is that they were brainwashed to do so and also to believe that the world was going to end any day. That mentality had a lot to do with it. The sad thing is that they would never ask for help, not from the move or from their children. While I agree that they could be living in much poorer conditions, considering at least they have power, running water and toilets, I think the move owes them more than that. They should not have to be paying lot rent, especially not to the move, or a mortgage, or car payments. Not at this point in their lives. It just makes me sad. I wonder what will happen when their health becomes worse as they age and on and on. As I work with elderly people I know the progression and I shudder to think.
But that is just my two cents worth. |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Username: doomsday
Post Number: 14
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Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:30 am: |
|
I guess Brightside must still be in the Move and still believes that anyone who challenges the doctrines of the Move is stooping real low. Sounds like a classic case of brainwashing to me. Apparently, people like ghstill can come on here offer their opinion on events that they have absolutely no factual knowledge of but it is low for any of us to stand up and state some facts. That reminds me of a time many years ago where we were supposed to just believe what we were told and don't ever question it, without "the fear of God" coming to judge us.
Amazing though, in a normal and compassionate society, people would actually be disgusted and ashamed of the things that went on that have been posted here, but not the Movies, no way, they will fight it and sweep it under the rug til the bitter end even going as far as criticising the victims that speak up. How utterly disgusting, and all in the name of God. I hope you people have enjoyed your years of freezing in the great white north because it is going to be pretty hot where you are heading.
NIWK, at least the old folks are allowed to see doctors now, remember when people were suffering and dying because the Elders felt that God didn't like doctors and that he would heal them himself and that if it took weeks to recover when minor medical help could have relieved the suffering that God was just testing them like JOB?
Makes one wonder, why doctors were bad to visit, but accountants aren't......... |
doomsday (doomsday)
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Post Number: 15
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:36 am: |
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Carl, I think they were hallucinations, not visions!!!
I know of kids that used to make up "visions" during the meetings (we had hours of boredom to think them up while they rambeld on about God knows what) and send them up to the front. It was always a great source of delight listening to the "elders" "interpret" what God was saying!!
Thanks for bringing back that memory, that is hilarious still! |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 2:14 pm: |
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Just wondering if anyone is getting the urge to move "deeper in" ... considering the most recent 'signs of the times'.  |
niwk (niwk)
New member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:24 pm: |
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I also remember when people were deathly ill and instead of taking them to a doctor, they cast demons out of them!!! A couple times they finally realized that wasn't working and actually finally took them in for medical help, of course they were near death at that point. |
ron_kiers (ron_kiers)
New member
Username: ron_kiers
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 142.59.175.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:56 am: |
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Bright, your right I've been a very bad boy. I've seen the error of my ways and have since repented. I am currently having a vision and will be selling everything tomorrow and will then be moving to the Farm.
Just kidding,
Ron Kiers |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 14
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 207.6.198.115
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:42 am: |
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Good to know someone else has had some time to do some extreme soul-searching over the weekend! As we well know the only way we will enter the kingdom of god is to move to the wilderness and give up all our worldly possessions. This is the ONLY way we will make it through the end-times - and have a shot at living forever!
"Come out and be separate!" |
niwk (niwk)
Junior Member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 26
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 7:45 am: |
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Are the odds of winning any better than when playing the Lotto? Which cult has the best odds of being the REAL chosen ones? Eeny Meeny Miny Mo..... |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 15
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:05 pm: |
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It's called 'blind faith' - niwk |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:33 pm: |
|
Tried, you are somewhat inaccurate in your statement. Giving up all of your worldly possesions in order to get into the kingdom of God is only necessary if you are not a leader of the Move.
The likes of Buddy Cobb & John Clarke have a special pass, they are allowed to have whatever they want as long as it is given to them by the other poor suckers that have to pay pennance to be God's chosen one's...... |
niwk (niwk)
Junior Member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 27
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
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Wow, I wonder what it took to for them to get to such high ranks... Is there some type of special initiation process? Hummmmm.... I wonder? |
redd (redd)
New member
Username: redd
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 209.86.72.37
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 7:10 am: |
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TEST BEFORE I POST |
redd (redd)
New member
Username: redd
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 209.86.72.37
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 8:01 am: |
|
TEST |
redd (redd)
New member
Username: redd
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 209.86.72.37
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 8:43 am: |
|
I WAS ON IN THE BODY FROM 1972 TO 1982 HAD MANY YEARS ON 3 FARMS IT WAS MOSTLY A POSTIVE EXPERIENCE
HOWEVER I FELT THE BODY CHILDREN WERE DEPRIVED OF THE IMPORTANCE OF A PROPER EDUCATION AND AT A DISADVANTAGE TO COMPETE FOR A GOOD LIVING IN LATTER LIFE
ESPECIALY WHEN THEIR FARMS WENT BELLY UP LIKE SHILOH BC AND PALMER ALASKA AND GRAHM RIVER,BC. AND THEY HAD TO WORK IN THE REAL WORLD
FAMILES LIKE THE RESSERS FROM PHILADELPHIA WERE LEFT DESTITUDE AFTER SELLING THEIT HOME IN PHILADELPHIA TO MOVE TO A FARM AND TO HAVE THEIR FARM CLOSE ON THEM LEAVING THEM PENNYLESS
YES I SAW CHILDREN OVERLY CORRECTED IN THE PHILADELPHIA BODY TO THE POINT THE CHILDREN WERE LITERALLY A SCARED OF THEIR FATHER HIS NAME WAS JIM
I RECENTLY TOOK A TRIP TO ALASKA AND VISITED THE RUINS OF THE PALMER FARM THOUGHT OF THE MONEY PEOPLE POURED IN TO IT THE FREE LABOR OF LOVE POURED INTO IT AND THOUGHT WHERE IS THE GLORY TO GOD IN THIS WASTELAND OF A FARM WOULD GOD LEAVE IT LIKE THIS WAS IT REALLY GOD AFTER ALL
I MET WITH SOME FORMER BODY MEMBERS THE YEARS HAVE LEFT THEM SOUR ON THE BODY.
I MET WITH A FOUNDING ELDER A TRAVELING MINISTRY AT TIMES THEY ADMITED TO ME THEY WERE 40 YEARS TO
EARLY WITH THEIR MESSAGE . I THOUGHT WHO MADE THE MISTAKE THEM OR GOD?
I LISTENED AS THE ELDER SPOKE SHE SAID I THOUGHT PALMER WAS BIG BUSINESS BUT THE LAND( THE FARM NEAR FAIRBANKS ) WAS REALLY REALLY BIG BUSINESS.
I THOUGHT TO MY SELF WAS THE MOVE ABOUT GOD AND AND GODS PEOPLE AND LIVING BY FAITH OR BIG BUSINESS AND MAKING MONEY
GOD OR MONEY WHICH WAS IMPORTANT NOW IN THE MOVE
I THOUGHT OF ALL THE HOMES SOLD PENSIONS CASHED IN TO MAKE THESE FARMS AND THE ONE BY ONE CLOSURES
WOULD THEY SEE ANY OF THAT BIG BUSINESS
WHERE HAVE ALL THE PEOPLE GONE THRU THE YEARS WHY HAS THE MOVE FIZZLED ALL THE BODIES INCLUDING CANTON OHIO DOWN TO NOTHING WHY HAS ALL THE AIR GONE OUT OF THE MOVE
I HAVE STOOD ON ALL GODS GROUND WHERE THESE FARMS NO LONGER EXSIST
SHILOH BC ,GRAHAM RIVER BC., PALMER,ALASKA,DENTON,MD.
I ASK WHY WAS THE MESSAGE 40 YRS TO EARLY WHOOSE FAULT WAS IT
? HOW MANY LIVES WERE AFFECTED BY THESE
COLLASPED FARMS AND TO THE TO EARLY MESSAGE
WHY DID THE MINISTRY ALL CRASH INTO MOUNTAINS WAS GOD REALLY LEADING THESE MEN?? |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
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40 years too early? It seems that Sam Fife's wilderness message died with him. As some have mentioned, things are different now. Was Sam Fife a real prophet? Go back and listen to his early messages and decide for yourself. You can find them at the following address. http://groups.msn.com/SamFifeTapesandCDs |
terri_kay (terri_kay)
New member
Username: terri_kay
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.65.150.193
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
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This address may be easier to access for Sam Fife tapes.
http://www.geocities.com/patriot_040388/index.htm |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 1:59 pm: |
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So are they saying their 'message' would be appropriate now... or will be in 5-10 years? |
niwk (niwk)
Junior Member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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Very interesting..... it would be interesting to see a response from one of the prophets to this!!! |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 205.250.219.189
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
|
Here you go NIWK.... enough whining and complaining.... here it is from the Cobb's mouth himself!!!!
"We cannot have a soulish relationship with anyone. We like these relationships where you are my buddy, and I am your friend and we can cry on each others shoulders and we can give each other pity. Sympathy is deadly. God is never going to lay anything on anyone that is more than what is right. He is a just God. We have no room for pity parties in the kingdom of God. God is trying to get our attention by taking us through one calamity after another until we actually wake up and find out what He is trying to get across to us. That is essential to our relationship with Him. He says that whenever you come into the sanctuary of God, you are going to break into the light of the truth, and you are going to understand that God has not done anything without purpose and without cause. We serve a just God! We serve a good God! "
The only thing I can't figure out is why he forgot to mention that "God is love" I remember reading that somewhere in the Bible one time!!!! Maybe it's no longer in the move's version... |
niwk (niwk)
Junior Member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 6:27 pm: |
|
That sounds like a cop out to me. I certainly do not believe, if there is a God, that he is responsible for everything that goes on or that has happened in anyones lives. That sounds more like an excuse that can be used to cover up human screw-ups. If I get drunk and then drive and hit and kill someone, does that mean that in God's opinion, he felt that the person killed and the ones left behind who lost that person... that is right for them? If I tell someone that God told me to tell them to do something, they do it and something terrible comes out of it, and I truely believe that I was following "God's direction" it is right? Maybe I just screwed up!!! It makes me wonder why, in all of God's genius... why did he give us a brain? If there is a God, I would think he would want us to use our brains, not to just blindly believe things just because some one says God spoke to them. Not to let it sit dormant while someone else tells us what to think, what to feel and how to live ours lives.
I also would like to believe, if there is a God, that he is a God of love, that he cares about us and does not just set about to make our lives full of hardships and calamity. I think humans screw up, and use God as a cop out to excuse their error. |
cwcp (cwcp)
New member
Username: cwcp
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 219.93.192.238
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
|
Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.59.144.23
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
|
So what you are saying is: Being raped and beaten is in our imagination and that we want to break up the John Clarke and the Stealing Movites band and you are going to get high and laugh at us. Then God will get mad at us for breaking up the band and telling the truth about their corruption and then we will get to put King John Clarke on the holy hill of Zion, (I am assuming we are going to crucify him??)
Then God will tell King Clarke that he is proud of what he has done and that stealing in his name is what he wanted all along and then on top of all the stuff he stole he is going to inherit all of God's stuff too and he will get to own us (the "heathen") too as his little torture toys (hold on, didn't that already happen??)
Then he will get to beat the crap out of us (wow deja vu...) and dash us to pieces, hmmm I guess they didn't hit hard enough the first go around.
Of course the judges of the earth will have to wise up to the fact that abuse is not abuse if it is done in the name of God, I suppose??
And in the end we will have to kiss the Son's ass in case he is angry with us which brings us right back to the sexual abuse.....???
Is that what you are saying??
My , don't tell me I misinterpreted the scriptures......
You know cwcp, the whole problem is that you are assuming you guys are the chosen ones and the only son's of God. Sorry to break it to you, but no God would want your group of thieves and crooks to represent him, at least no God I want to know.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Love thy neighbour as thyself.
Thou shalt not Steal
Thou shalt not lie...
Shall we go on???????? |
tried_testedfalse (tried_testedfalse)
New member
Username: tried_testedfalse
Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 207.6.198.115
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 9:43 pm: |
|
One of the things I learned VERY well in the Move was how to memorize and quote scripture. I also learned that the scripture can be interpreted in a variety of different ways to serve various ‘ministers’ needs/purposes at particular times.
So, if we want to have a scripture quoting session cwcp… here’s some food for thought.
(Let for the sake of this discussion interpret ’Pharisee’ to mean ’Movite’)
The name Pharisee in its Hebrew form means “separatists, or the separated ones” so it would be quite fitting.
(Matthew 16:11-12)
“Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
(Note: Just as yeast causes bread to rise, yeast is sometimes used as a symbol of sinful pride which makes religious people haughty and "puffed up.")
(Matthew 23:2-9)
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men.”
(Matthew 23:13).
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in."
(Matthew 23:23-24)
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!"
The lesson from the Pharisees' example is that self-righteousness is not righteousness, and that God's people are to live according to ALL of God's Word, not just certain parts that are most convenient or to one's own liking. |
niwk (niwk)
Junior Member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 11:38 pm: |
|
I think what the Movites have a problem understanding is that it is "them.. the movites" that we have a problem with, not God. I can speak for myself when I say that the God that they preached and claimed to follow was not a just God or a God of love... he was a God of fear and punishment. So when I say that I do not want to believe in God as they have preached him, does not mean that I deny the exsistance of a God. I would like to believe that God is good and just. So when I pass judgement, so to say, on the move or on the John Clarkes of the move and all the other leaders that I have no respect for at all..that has nothing to do with God. I do not believe that they follow God, maybe they think they do, but I think they are more interested in what ever it takes to make a name for themselves and to take what they can get from people who are naive enough to fall for it.
When movites start quoting scriptures because they think that this an effective means of communication, they think that they can justify all their theories by interpreting a scripture to mean what ever it is they want it to mean. I do not read anywhere in the bible, any reference to Sam Fife, Buddy Cobb, John Clark etc. etc. The fact that they have chosen to set themselves up as the chosen few of God, may mean something to them, to convenience their lives, but it means no more to me than any other religious leader who claims to be the chosen one.
I would just like any reader to be aware that anything said here against the move or it's leaders, is exactly that!!! It is against them, not against God or religion in general. They are not made up stories, but truths and facts. Of course people in the move do not want these things to be told. Maybe some are not even fully aware of what all went on, but their ignorance does not give them a right to say that it did not happen. Just don't try to use God to excuse it because that is a disgrace to God.
To CWCP:
You were not even involved in the move at the time that most of the really bad stuff went on so who gives you the right to judge us. And for you to imply that any of us are bitter or unhappy.. we are are telling our story and we have the right to do so. That does not mean we are bitter or unhappy. I for one am quite happy with my life. That does not mean that I can not tell my story so others can be aware that the move is not all you guys would like to crack it up to be. And I don't have to hide behind a bunch of scripture verses to say what I want to say. Don't you have a mind of your own. I do believe God gave everyone a mind and what was the point if you can't use it? I truly feel sorry for you all because you have all got it in your heads that you are the chosen ones and someday you will be so powerful... take a good look at yourselves... listen to all the stories of horror and disappointment from people who were in the move and left when they had the blinders removed from their eyes and saw the truth. They saw how deceived you all are. These are people from all over North America, not just one isolated little place. And you still think that you are all living up to God's standards? I think you are all going to be in for the shock of your life when the time really does come. of course we are not sure when that will be because the move keeps getting the dates wrong....! Maybe you should give some second thoughts to what you are actually throwing your life away for!!! |
ron_kiers (ron_kiers)
New member
Username: ron_kiers
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.89.239.6
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 11:45 pm: |
|
Toyota 1992 Owners Manual Camry
Chapter 1 Verses 1 & 2.
1. To open the fuel filler door, pull the lever up.
2. To remove the fuel tank cap, turn the cap slowly counterclockwise, then pause slightly before removing it.
It is not unusual to hear a slight swoosh when the cap is opened. When installing , turn the cap clockwise till you hear a click.
RPK |
doomsday (doomsday)
New member
Username: doomsday
Post Number: 19
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 216.232.119.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
|
RPK, maybe that has been the problem all along, maybe they forgot to put the cap back on and the fumes have gotten to them... LOL |
paulputnam (paulputnam)
New member
Username: paulputnam
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.39.106.198
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 8:53 pm: |
|
My wife Helen and I lived on farms in the move for 13 years, and know many of those posting messages here. I've found that nobody gets to choose who their parents are or what circumstance we are born into. It rains on the just and the unjust, but we make the best of the life we are given and the decisions we make along the way. None of us knows what itwould have been like if we had been born into different circumstances or made different decisions. In our life on the farms we learned that people often let us down, and many of our decisions could have been better, But God has not let us down, and we are content. We learned to trust God, and I doubt if there is anything more to life than that.
I would like to hear from some of you out there who remember me. Darren Gustafson. I knew your Mom and Dad well, and have high regard for both of them. Ross Bracewell. I remember you at the Belfast Conventions before you went to Headwaters. Lorraine, I agree with much you have said here. Hello to Joe. |
niwk (niwk)
Junior Member
Username: niwk
Post Number: 31
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 198.53.125.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 12:17 am: |
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PaulPutnam: If you don't mind me asking, what farm did you live on? Was it in Canada or in the States? |
aimeelove (aimeelove)
New member
Username: aimeelove
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.180.51.17
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 2:15 am: |
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