| Author | Message | ||
     heavenly_citizen New member Username: heavenly_citizen Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 162.40.161.35 |
Any Holiness non-tithers alive out there or of other denominations? I am interested in reading more comments about what I consider the abusive practices of churches to extract a tenth from folks and call it a tithe (whether they are poor, orphaned, widowed, disabled, etc) and threaten them with hell if they don't give to a preacher as if he replaced the Levitical priesthood or is representative of "the church" or giving as unto the Lord. I came across only two mentions of this topic, both associated with the U.P.C. Coincidentally, I met with the same type of controlling abusive spirit both while simply visiting the U.P.C. knowing I disagree with their doctrines as being unsound Biblical doctrine, not rightly divided, and within my own denomination. I have not changed my beliefs just because I recognize sheep in wolves clothing but the spirit of the U.P.C. sure do want to get riled up if you mention the blood of Jesus cleansing you from all sins. The pastor used all sorts of verbal emotional attacks including name calling and said if I didn't come over 100% to his way of thinking, I was not welcome to come back. When I mentioned I thought the practice of tithing and what he tried to convince me of what abusive to the people, he showed his true colors but all his folks had already left so didn't see his unrighteous temper tantrum. I heard the old "we lived out of our car and ate balogna" number as if that justifies robbing God's children and putting them in bondage to the old law. I believe all doctrinal differences stem from a lack of proper understanding about what laws were fulfilled in Christ, which ones were carnal ordinances nailed to the cross, and the realization that the civil laws were not the same as the ten commandments. Why put old wine in new bottles? I do not believe people should shop for churches or denominations according to their own pet sins or major sins they want to deny are sins. The church is largely carnal today because it is too much mammon oriented and this would include carnal music and dress being brought in. The church as a whole has been so dumbed down and white washed to accept every sin until the devil must be laughing his head off at all the deceptions he has pulled off and all the wolves running around in even the denominations who as a whole interpret Bible truths. I am glad that I am looking at the weaknesses of the denomination even though I believe it teaches more Bible truths than most. I am unfortunately one of the only ones who has been able to see some of the abuses and I do not see any Paul's of our day rising up to stop any of these unsound doctrines or seperate clicks going on to where too many churches reflect the individual convictions of a particular man. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 2348 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.10 |
i am holiness but i am a tither and pay tithes regurly. i am blessed because of this. i give offering and bles others and the church as GOD leads but i pay my tihtes to the local church. it doesnt save me but it sure does help me to know that i have done what i am supposed to do. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 2349 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.10 |
i also do not believe that water baptisum saves anyone. water is not a cleansing. THE BLOOD IS. i had one upc pastor tell me that THE BLOOD DID NOT SAVE IT WAS THE OBEDIENCE OF BEING BAPTISED. that is nonsense GOD lone saves AND HE DOES IT BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS BY FAITH IN THAT BLOOD. | ||
| heavenly_citizen New member Username: heavenly_citizen Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 67.141.105.208 |
aaron, You say that faith in Jesus blood cleanses you from all sin and we are in absolute agreement. Many folks live in contradiction to what doctrines they say they believe. The law of tithing contradicts that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. Why are you trying to convert the blood of bulls and goats to money and call it a tithe?? Give what you want from what you have and as the spirit leads, wherever the need is. Have compassion and give whatever you feel. It is not a law to give 10% of one's income and call it a tithe. God blesses me also but it hasn't anything to do with giving to please men or giving under a law that was nailed to the cross. Just call your giving what it is: alms or charity. If a missionary or minister happens to be in the number of the poor and needy brothers, have compassion on them and supply the need from what you have if you have it. Quite simply, that is the new Grace Covenant we now enjoy! Even the Jews do not call their giving a tithe (think of why not) but they will offer up a sacrifice in the temple again just as soon as it is rebuilt. This is against (anti) Christ and his sacrifice and Priesthood. It was offered up once and Paul said we are not redeemed (bought, saved) with corruptible things such as silver and gold therefore why give as under the law when it's simply circumcision of the wallet? Peter said "silver and gold have I none but such as I have". So, I would that God would bless me to give freely as Peter did and apparently he didn't collect tithes of folks since he didn't have two coins to rub together in his pocket and neither did his fellow minister. There are many non-tithing articles out there on Grace based spirit-led giving and receiving. Living by faith is not living by the law. Make up your mind which you want since the old wine doesn't fit into new bottles. There is a way to offer a sacrifice that is acceptable. Christ is all sufficient!God bless! | ||
| heavenly_citizen New member Username: heavenly_citizen Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 67.141.105.208 |
P.S. aaron, Every religious history book and World Encylopedia and Matthew Henry's Commentary, Foxes Book of Martyrs among many others will verify that the one-man pastor system and the so called "tithe" used to support the bishops or clerics who covet titles and make themselves above the poor and in an elevated position over them originated with the Roman Catholic Church about seven centuries after the Cross. When Jesus said it is finished he meant it! He drank all the cup and now we are to drink all the cup of the new covenant in communion. | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 555 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.44.177 |
heavenly_citizen, I know that my comments will not change your position, but God has always given the vision to one person, not a group. I am reffering to a Senior Pastor. An eldership that is seperate from the pastors is not biblical; the senior pastor is the head elder. Timmothy was an elder; the head elder in Ephesus. Paul was the Apostle who began the work, and he provided Timmothy with Spiritual guidance and leadership. Timmothy was over the other elders in the city, which made up the church. He did not have an elder board, nor did he allow them to dictate the vision that God had given him. I agree with you that for many years, some church's have abused the tithe issue. That is wrong, and should be changed in cingregations where abuse takes place. However, that does not negate the fact that even Paul said that those who prach the gospel should live from the gospel, reffering to receiving a paycheck. | ||
| strongholdbroken New member Username: strongholdbroken Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.132.20.241 |
I agree with Heavenly_citzen using tithes as a way to scare people into paying $$$ to the pastor or the church for who? Who in the church is like unto the son's of Levi, who the tithes were set aside for? If God is soverign and he could do anything that he pleases then why does he need a 10th of my earnings. The Levites received the tithes as their food; per Malachi 3:8. In the old testament God, according to the prophet Malachi, commanded the Israelites to give tithes for one of three reasons. #1 To support the Levites who were responsible for the tabernacle and worship. #2 To support various feast and scarifices. #3 To establish a pool of resources to help the poor, orphans, widows and strangers in the land. Cited: What does the Bible say about... The Ultimate A to Z resource. Thomas Nelson Nashville page 384 Based on my experience none of the above happens in todays' churches. The church today #1 has no Levites = son's of Levi. #2 What christian church is considered the Israelites? #3 How many chruches support, widows, strangers, and the poor without putting them through the 3rd degree and trying to convert them. I come from an Apostolic church that preaches tithes, hell and damnation if you don't pay your tithes. However, if you asked for a piece of bread to eat they wouldn't give it to you. They might sell it to you but they wouldn't give you a place to lay your head if you were homeless. Nonetheless they want a 10th of my earnings to do what? build new churches and make sure the bishop has a nice place to stay. Now if the church is providing for the community and giving to the poor, helping out strangers without looking down on them then why not give your tithes to that organization. Paul spoke about tithes in the book of Hebrews 7:1-28. Basically Paul explained to them the reason for tithes(the law) and how Jesus was of the tribe of Judah. See Hebrew 7:11-16 I quote " If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident; for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, who made not after the law of carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. In other words there were no Levites at the altar from the tribe of Judah? Jesus is our high priest who became a scarifice, therefore we don't need to pay tithes now! Just my opinion. Read the entire chapter and pray about it. I'm not here to have a heated debate but to bring about thought. Peace | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 629 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.176.43.144 |
Strong, Your time in the Apostolic church is the reason for your belief. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 2886 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.241.6.69 |
i do not fear a pastor because of my thithes. i pay tithes because that is what GOD SHOWED me to do. i do not pay tithes to keep saved or to be saved i am saved by faith in THE BLOOD OF JESUS . i pay tithes because it keeps up the church and the church minstry that i go too. i dont have to pay anything to anybodys for salvation. | ||
| still_small_voice Intermediate Member Username: still_small_voice Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.138.130.3 |
If anyone is interested in reading it, my thoughts on tithe are over on the NTTC thread under "would God rob a man?" I guess I could have re-posted it here but it is so much easier to point, just in case anyone wants to read it. | ||
| strongholdbroken New member Username: strongholdbroken Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.132.20.241 |
Bear, Hebrews chapter 7 is the reason for my belief. Regardless of what denomination I came from, the word of God is what drives my belief.  | ||
| restorer_of_the_breach New member Username: restorer_of_the_breach Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.118.198.161 |
Strong I believe totally in the things your saying about the tithes. Much has been taught about this topic without any true understanding of the scriptures the proponents of tithing use trying to prove their case. Hebrews and the book of Galations deal with the reasons for the law. The law was not meant to be permanent but a means to an end. It was to keep the people of God in check with their flesh until the promise came. Upon the arrival of the promise the law was thus established in the heart of the believers and no longer had to be acted out in the flesh. The moral law is fulfilled in the law of Love first for God and all that he is, then to love your neighbor as Christ love the church. The law contained in ordinances has been done away with. The Judaizers tried to infiltrate the Church with circumcision and the law of moses. The issue was dealt with in Galations and Acts chapter 15. If you are not able to see this, it's because you are steep in traditions and you lack the eyes to see the truth due to pride in trying to establish your own salvation from the one Christ has given. Abraham gave a tithe from the spoils he got back from the kings who stole it from sodom and gomorrah. He then gave the rest to those nations it was stolen from and took none for himself. He did not tithe from his own posession. This cannot be used to prove the point so many use to say to tithe a tenth of all your posession. John Wesley taught that you should get all you can by not been superfluous in your purchases due to lust. Then give all you can to fill the needs of those in need. Especially those of the household of faith. He actually says to take care of you first so you can take care of your family, then give if you have left over to those in the church with needs. Then if you have left over still, you should give to the needs of the world. God will always bless you that you'll have to keep doing this. | ||
| heavenly_citizen New member Username: heavenly_citizen Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 75.88.61.202 |
I recieve spiritual blessings and I don't pay tithes. Even Muslims and Budhists pay tithes. So what? Doesn't make their beliefs scripturally sound doctrine. Maybe they believe God will bless them too or some deity if they pay enough for a minister and fancy building to worship in. Remember the days of brush arbor camp-meetings? A raven fed Elisha, not tithes. Jesus fed the five thousand and not with tithe collection. Jesus didn't have a house much less a fancy chariot or temple erection program. I never understood the Bible at all until I understood the tithe. If anyone is interested in totally researching this the way I have for over a year and a half will arrive at the same conclusions as myself based completely on the Word of God rightly divided. There's been some excellent points made while I was away. Has anyone who practices or teaches the tithe as under the old law even know how it's done correctly? I think not. They just made their own rules up as they went along. It's not even scriptural. Studylight.org has church History link where one can study Alfred Eidersheim's writings on these topics. I strongly recommend it as well as reading Foxe's Book of Martyrs and there's some good books I got from Calvanists who defy their own beliefs in studies on the Tabernacle, Priesthood and Offerings. Yes, I agree we have too many modern day Judaizers among us causing confusion and a jillion different denominational factions. Just like marriage and adultery, in the beginning it was not} so. There were a plurality of elders and even when Jesus walked this earth He was not the master but the servant and HE IS THE ONLY SENIOR PASTOR which is to say the same as CHIEF SHEPERD or HIGH PRIEST. (see article below by dave) There's no difference in definition between pastor, elder, minister or shepherd. Prophet may be the same as well if my memory serves me right. Anybody who doesn't know the difference between God's law and man's needs to dig deeper into the Word until they find out exactly what laws apply to them. You see, the Pharisees thought the widow woman broke God's law, they thought Jesus and His disciples broke God's law picking and eating ears of corn on the sabbath and that it was not "lawful" for Jesus to heal on the sabbath. So, how many of you tithers work on sabbath or pay some restraunt workers to work on sabbath? You say it's either a law or principle. No, Equality is a principle. Loving God and your neighbor are commandments as well. But is tithe a law for today? NO, a thousand times NO! Israel was a THEOCRACY. We now have separation of church and state. We, who are Protestants have apostacized. Read your cross-references and study helps on why Jesus cleansed the Temple. They were bringing their tithe money to convert it back to a tithe, that is the feast that they could buy anything their hearts desired and EAT IT! The religious folks were PROFITING from this and had no business doing so in the house of God!! "Gospel and blessings for sale, Give to me and God will bless you" is what false prophets are squawking out today just like circus vendors. SHAME ON THEM and their prosperity GARBAGE! Nothing has changed and it's time we cleanse the temple of filthy greedy widow devouring mammon worshipers again. It is HINDERING people from realizing that the church is more interested in adding souls than in adding income!! (I can hear the preacher now praying "God send us souls" being interpreted "I want more tithing members added to my income at the rate of 10% of each adult individual's income including the children's allowances.") | ||
| heavenly_citizen New member Username: heavenly_citizen Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 75.88.61.202 |
If folks will just read their Bibles and follow the leading of the spirit in their giving, then just like the children of Israel when they left Egypt had "nothing over and nothing lacking" and the Pentecost filled New Testament church had all things equal "nothing over, nothing lacking", that's still God's plan today. Read what Job has to say about the poor, possessions, goods, etc. Read everything Jesus and his disciples practiced and taught about finances. You will be pleasantly surprised. Once you realize the lie of the tithe and that the one man hired pastor is not the Biblical pattern for today's church, you will see treasures and mysteries in God's Word you have never seen or heard before because you've been blinded by that leaven and it's spreading through the entire Pentecostal lump it seems. Check out these links: http://home.earthlink.net/~russkellyphd/id15.html http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheisIllegal.html http://www.daveblackonline.com/there_is_only_one.htm | ||
| heavenly_citizen New member Username: heavenly_citizen Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 75.88.61.202 |
Verses on God's principles of equality and giving, “nothing over, nothing lacking” Exodus 12: 3 …In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. (excellent meal planning; no waste, no want) 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. Exodus 16:17And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. 18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. (God knows how to satisfy each and every one just right.) Neh. 9:1 Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not. II Cor. 8:11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have. 12For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. 13For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened: 14But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: 15As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack. (There it is again where Paul is taking up an offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem and not for himself you'll notice!! And that word equality, the same one used in Acts after the Holy Ghost fell and they "had all things equal". Isn't that amazing! The new testament teaches something directly opposed to giving 10% of one's income to either a church or minister!” Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. (reoccurring them of loving your neighbor, sharing equally!) 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (fruits of that unity and love) 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, (notice nobody went without again! God's ways WORK!) 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. | ||
| heavenly_citizen New member Username: heavenly_citizen Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 75.88.61.202 |
(Now, where are the plurality of elders who teach the word without greed and their Holy Ghost filled helps who like Stephen the first martyr, was merely a TABLE WAITER for widows, etc. and distributed the offerings to the needy among the SAINTS FIRST! They got in their place of distributing to the needs of the saints and then the WORD went out and many were added to the church. Who is obeying the scriptures on how to collect and distribute the offerings?? The church gave voluntarily to Paul without him teaching them to do so and they ASKED him, “Paul, how do we give now?” because they knew not to bring tithes in for sacrifice for their sins anymore and that the Levitical priests were incorporated into the general populace and an unprecedented thing happened when men and women, Jews and Greeks were in ONE MIND AND ONE ACCORD and filled with the Holy Ghost!) 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet. So, tell me, what do tithers do with those Levitical priests who not only got saved and filled with the Holy Ghost but also GAVE in the collection taken up for the poor, YES, they GAVE out of THEIR INHERITANCE as God was their inheritance, the tithe given to the priest! YES. Read about Jose, renamed Barnabas, Son of Consolation, that GOOD example of giving that's always skipped over to scare us out of our wits when we read about Annanias and Sapphira who gave WAY OVER 10% by the way! Did you know each family of priests only served like one week at a time in the temple? That means he had to have a trade to support himself the rest of the year.) Acts 6:77And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. Sorry it took so many posts to get all this in here. I left plenty out also but I'll save it for later! |
