| Author |
Message |
    
sophie (144.137.33.79)
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 2:28 am: | 
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"the way of the heart" or "mystic lover"..2 websites that have great importance to me at the moment in my search for answers...a few days ago a good friend of mine told me and her family that she will be leaving her old life to go on a pilgrimmage to israel. the group is based in a place called 'shanti cristo' in USA (this is where she believes she will live out her days)...does anyone know of any of these groups or the leader "jayem" (apparently he channels jesus)??
any help would be greatly appreciated
sophie |
Michael (208.24.179.207)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
|
Sophie,
I take it the first line about web sites was a quote from your friend? There are several references to those names. But mostly it refers to mysticism itself.
Mysticism
The belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (e.g. intuition or insight).
On Channeling. It is definately forbidden in the Bible:
) The Bible forbids communication with the dead [Necromancy] . Lev. 19:31; Deut. 18:9-12, 15; 1 Sam. 28; 1 Chron. 10:13-14; Isa. 8:19.
3) Channelers are either committing fraud (faking spiritual communication), are self-deceived (2 Thes. 2:10; 2 Tim. 3:12) or in contact with familiar spirits [demons] who are masquerading as deceased spirit masters. Isa. 19:3; Eph. 6:12; 1 John 4:1-3.
http://www.watchman.org/profile/chanpro.htm
Read this on what are cults:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09.html
It definately is a cult from a theological perspective. No one channels Jesus. At least not the Jesus of the Bible. He cannot participate in something that is contrary to His nature or God's word.
Other than that the best thing is to be familiar with what the definitions are, the signs. Maybe someone else has information on the possibility of sociological aspects.
People are grasping and needing spirituality. The problem is they are doing it by their own means or by someone else' idea. Yet they have no way but subjective experiences to try and validate it.
I'll see if I can find out anything else.
Michael |
Michael (208.24.179.207)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 12:35 pm: |
|
Sophie,
Not sure if this is related. It's hard to tell with limited titles. If you have more names of people they refer to for teaching, real city names, etc. will help. But see if any names in here sound familair:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/adidam.html
http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/Da_cult_of.html
http://freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/adidam/
http://lightmind.com/daism/
These are just stabs really to maybe find something that is related. Some might be totally irrelevant. It might help to talk to your friend to possibly get names that they refer to etc.
Michael |
Luus van Leeuwen (84.82.51.164)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 4:51 am: |
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Sophie, I searched for Shanti Christo and found only your question of May this year about Jayem, which is Jon Marc Hammer. You may contact him at jayem@themysticlover.com. There is also a Way of the Heart Journal which I greatly recommend to everyone who is interested in spiritual growth: www.wayoftheheart.com |
Luus van Leeuwen (84.82.51.164)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 6:42 am: |
|
I'm sorry but I made a mistake:
Jon Marc Hammer'swebsite is: www.themysticlover.com, the Way of the Heart teachings may be ordered from www.shantichristo.com and the correct address for the Way of the Heart Journal is www.wayoftheheart.net. |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.255.32.17
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 7:15 am: |
|
An interesting fact about John Mark (AKA Marc Hammer from Puyallup/Tacoma Washington) is that he was jailed for the serial rape of his step daughter in the early ninteen eighties. It was a high profile case, as the judge was seriously considering castration. I met him in 1988 and saw first hand how good he is at grooming and manipulation. He may have stopped having sex with small children, but if you ask me he is still using those old skills to get money from people. |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.253.64.24
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Dear_love_of_life I am 6'4" so nothing little about me ;-) There is no doubt that we are talking about the same man. His real name is Marc Alan Hammer. I am not an expert on US law, so have no idea what the travel restrictions for peadophiles were back in eighties. They were almost certainly more lenient and there probably wasn't a registry of offenders. As you seem so keen on finding out the truth I shall do some research for you to see why he is able to travel freely. Having known the man and seen the court files of his case I am certain of what I am talking about. It is good to be scared, it's your survival instinct at work. Love life, not someone like Mr Hammer. |
suzanne (suzanne)
New member
Username: suzanne
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 138.130.64.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 9:22 am: |
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Hi Andrew, I would be very interested in hearing more. I have only meet loving and compassionate people by means of studying the Way of The Heart. The reasons for me still breathing today are due to listening to this man and a number of people that accept as truth the teaching that he presents.
If you feel that there is a sinister side to it all, I would like to now what you have to say. If it is true and the man that you speak of is one in the some, do you not think that people have the right to change and live their lives accordingly? I hope so, it gives me aspiration for my own. |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.252.0.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Hello Suzanne.
You sound like a very nice and open minded person.
Marc Hammer was surrounded by many very kind and loving people when I met him. Two were old friends of mine and another, that I met there, was so nice I ended up marrying her! We only learned of his past by accident, and then checked out the facts at the Court House. He had some pretty strange justifications and explanations, which left us feeling stunned.
We were all looking for answers back then and he seemed to be offering some pretty profound answers. When we looked into it we found most of his words come out of various books he had studied, or was reading at the time. He just mixes them all together and makes them sound convincing.
I do believe people have a right to change, but my life experience has shown me over and over again that people don't change fundamentally. They may give up smoking or reform in small ways, but at the core they don't alter much. Grooming and manipulation are hard habits to break.
One of my rules in life is to steer clear of people who claim to have the answers! I am sure you know what is right and wrong and are perfectly well equipped to lead a happy and fulfilling life without any paid assistance from pseudo mystics. |
suzanne (suzanne)
New member
Username: suzanne
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 138.130.64.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
|
Thank you for your reply Andrew, now you have me more fascinate than before. How long ago did you meet Mr Hammer and where? I am trying to figure out if there is a pattern that I should be looking out for.
Please tell me more, as I know some people would be relying on his teachings to get them through each day. |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.252.192.17
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
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No Problem.
I met Marc Hammer in Tacoma, Washington back in, I think, 1990. The pattern is that he sets himself up as a dispenser of wisdom to people looking for answers which is essentially the same as grooming and using. He likes having people hanging on his every word and cultivates a kind of dependence.
In my opinion any teacher of worth does their best to help people make their own decisions and discourages any form of dependence. |
suzanne (suzanne)
New member
Username: suzanne
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 138.130.70.183
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 9:34 am: |
|
Hi Andrew,
This is said with a kind and questioning heart. Why do you judge the messenger and not the message? If you read or listened to what Jon Marc Hammer speaks of, you would know what I am saying.
If Jesus returned today how would you recognise him, would anyone even believe him. Very few did when he was here 2000 years ago and what happened then?
By no measures am I saying that Jon Marc Hammer is Jesus. However, I believe he is a messenger. He has not asked for money nor has he displayed any form of dependence on him. His words are not about him in anyway; they promote independence, love, forgiveness, humility etc. A way of living life in peace without judgment.
I don’t care what happened in the past, it is just that, the past. The words Jon Marc Hammer delievers have helped me to forgive people in my past and move forward filled with love. I have been a victim of a number of violent acts in my life. I am now working on forgiveness and feel lighter for the experience.
Moses was more than a messenger for God, and it is said that he murdered an Egyptian and hide his body in the sand. Would you not have listened to him for what he did in the past?
Please have take a look at the www.themysticlover.com and tell me about what you find and not the man. |
jon_marc (jon_marc)
New member
Username: jon_marc
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 60.229.120.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 6:57 am: |
|
Hello Andrew.
This is Jon Marc Hammer. I found your posts, well, interesting, and filled with interesting opinions.
First, it is simply not true that I 'set myself up as a dispenser of wisdom', nor that I 'like having people hanging on my every word, etc'. Nor is it remotely true that I ‘string together’ things from books I was reading…nothing even close!
What I am, and who I am, is one who is very dedicated to the process of true healing, awakening, and being of genuine service. Anyone who knows me, or the work I do which has evolved out of principally my encounter with Jeshua (for which ample objective proof has occurred over the years), knows its cornerstone is rather simple: each of us has within a connection to the source of wisdom, IF we can heal the obscurations, wounds, and fears we all carry to greater or lesser degrees.
My own journey of healing began profoundly as a result of my behavior with my step daughter. You may wish to check, but your claim that I 'serially raped' her is simply not the case. Had it been, the Prosecutor's Office would not have highly recommended probation.
While incarcerated, I continued the in depth counseling I had already voluntarily begun months prior, and - when the Parole Board reduced my sentence to a matter of months, overturning the judges decision (which was diametrically opposed to the Prosecuting Attorneys Office, which is by law given the duty to thorougly investigate and analyse a case) - I resumed it with a passion.
Upon release from what is considered one of the best treatment programs in the U.S. (after three plus intensive years) I continued - and have never ceased - to dive deep into the nature of my humanity; my Work simply extends what I have learned from many, many great teachers who helped me discover the real depths of woundedness and what heals it.
By the way, my relationship with my step daughter is profoundly deep, loving, and healed. It would upset her to know folks are still needing to talk about events they know little of, some twenty years later. If you would like to, I am sure she would be willing to correspond with you; she still lives in that area, and I will be home to see her, my other daughter and (altogether as of August) five grandchildren very soon.
Do people change? Oh, yes, IF there is profound dedication to doing so! Then, the universe always sends the teachers, helpers, etc: if you want support, it shows up.
I completed my 'sentence' period many years ago. Subsequently, and with the expert guidance needed, I applied for and was given a passport to travel, which I do primarily related to my Work, including pilgrimages and retreats to sacred sites, spponsored by organizations who are very happy to bring the level of my work to their areas.
I remain - as a result of my failure - acutely aware of the "temptations of the ego", and in my work with people I seek only one thing: to empower them to access the source of wisdom within themselves, and to convey the tools and ways that bring profoundly deep levels of healing and insight, IF they are willing to do the inner work, too!
I remain feeling both humbled, at times still ashamed, and ceaselessly devoted to my own on-going growth, and to helping others as well.
WHile I remain ashamed -and yet occasionally experience the pain of my failure in life - I am also curiously thankful: it spurred me on and into a life that has deeply helped now several thousand people, and so I am humbled at how the Divine can turn around and work through the most dismal uses of consciousness, which is certainly where mine once was!
Should you wish to contact me directly, please do so (besides I am curious..who did you marry??)at jayem01@earthlink.net, which is my direct personal email address.
What I ask for is something in fairness anyone has a right to ask for:
it has been over twenty years, and it is my request that my life, which has been exemplary since this shameful failure, be allowed to continue without unnecessary interference. I don't hide from anyone, for I feel no reason to do so.
I welcome comments, questions, and am always willing to communicate with anyone whose request is founded in civility, and genuine openness, rather than mere judgment, unfounded opinions, and -as is often the case - a lack of information, or some distorted conclusions based on some facts.
Again, I, my step daughter, our immediate families, etc., have all long since healed and grown from this tragedy. I ask that you honor that for her and their sakes as well.
Blessings,
and thank God, evolution occurs.
Jon Marc Hammer |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.255.32.17
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 6:24 am: |
|
Sorry to be so slow in replying, but I have been out of the country for a few days.
Now we begin!
Hello Marc
To get things straight from at the outset, I don't think you are a bad person doing evil things. You are just a guy making a living. I come at this from a neutral and genuinely open point of view, but your response raises more questions than answers.
The main questions that need answers are:
1) How do you describe what you did with your step daughter between the ages of six & twelve?
2) How do you earn your living?
Serial rape might be a reasonable definition for question 1) and setting yourself up as a dispenser of wisdom sounds reasonable for question 2). Indeed these are judgements and opinions but I see no reason to suspend judgement and I can only base my opinions on what I know. It's not a perfect world and nobody has a monopoly on the truth.
You say that your journey began as a result of your behaviour with your step daughter. If this was the catalyst to channelling Jesus then it seems strange that it never gets a mention.
A conversation with your step daughter would not serve any purpose, but I would be very interested to hear from people in any treatment program similar to the one you were in.
An interest in things spiritual and psychological has led me down many fascinating avenues, but nothing, I have seen or heard, has provided any objective proof to support the idea of channelling. If anything the opposite is true.
I doubt this will illicit a response, as you would prefer to talk directly to the people that support you, but I welcome answers and comments with an open mind. |
bill66 (bill66)
New member
Username: bill66
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 203.102.105.148
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 5:05 am: |
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Hi Andrew, interesting to hear about the past of this person. I have a family member involved in this "cult". Is there a way to get concrete evidence of his past crimes, as in court transcripts or a sexual offenders database. I would rather present the family member with some concrete facts than allegations. As for people saying what he did was in the past, I say anyone who sexually abuses a child no longer deserves the right for any future respect or dignity. Its ok for him to say that everything has been healed, but what scars is the step daughter still carying. |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.253.64.24
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
|
Hello Bill
The most concrete evidence is that he admits to (or at least doesn't deny) the crime and the fact that he was in prison for it in his postings above.
I don't have copies of the papers but they are available from the Pierce County Court House in Tacoma Washington. The name you have to look for is Marc Alan Hammer. If you cannot get to Tacoma they are probably available via the internet. I don't think there was a sexual offenders database back in the mid eighties.
I hope you get your family member out and though I have no evidence of any continued abuse by Mr Hammer, his cons needs to be exposed! |
marehya (marehya)
New member
Username: marehya
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 203.221.137.92
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 7:41 pm: |
|
As a free and willing participant to the teachings that Jayem presents I would like to attempt to reassure you people that there is nothng sinister going on within this group of open-minded, supportive and loving people.
Nobody is bound or tied to these teachings and Jayem does not ask anything of anyone. There is no 'cult' to 'get anyone out of'. The information and teachings are simply presented to anyone who chooses to immerse themself in them, to any depth and in anyway that they desire.
Like Suzanne, I have NEVER felt dependent on Jayem, in fact I am always surprised about how little he actually expects from people and how generous he is with his time and life. At any moment I am free to leave these teachings and Jayem behind without 'suffering' any consequences.
There is much more that I would love to say but I am not sure if any of you would be prepared to listen with an open mind. Nevertheless, I am more than happy to answer any questions that anyone may wish to post here. If you have some doubts or questions - please ask so that there can be some objective clarity. |
charlotte (charlotte)
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Username: charlotte
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.69.55.52
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 2:56 am: |
|
I too freely and willingly participated in the teachings presented by Jayem. I have great respect for this man. A cult he doesn't support. It's about waking up to who we really are in full transparency, and owning our own 'stuff' as it were. I am extremely grateful for this man's courage to step out and heal. My life has been blessed. Though I don't condone his past, I find this whole discussion fear mongering and gossip. |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.252.192.17
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
|
First of all this isn't gossip and whether it makes people afraid or not is entirely up to them.
I think I understand what your concerns are. I am certain that the people around Mr Hammer are as curious, forgiving and interesting as the people I met back in the eighties.
The problem for me is that I don't trust or respect Marc Hammer, AKA Jon Marc or Jayem. With all these names and channelling, he likes to blur the line between himself and Jeshua (AKA Jesus) which gets him the respect and attention he doesn't deserve from genuinely inquisitive and generous people like yourselves.
It ain't rocket science, but if it's what you want, then I am not trying to stop you listening to him. I am only trying to encourage some healthy scepticism. After all, questioning the status quo was probably why you were interested in the first place. |
charlotte (charlotte)
New member
Username: charlotte
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.69.55.52
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
|
Perhaps, and whether or not we have fear about something is up to us, like you said. I am realizing that the fear mongering statement was a little over the top.
I do like what Suzanne said about Moses. I had no idea he had killed someone and stuffed his head into the sand. Oh my God!
...but I agree with her. Why discount the message?
The fact that I got a tremeondous amount out of the Jeshua material back in the mid nineties is why I'm involved in this discussion and and I want to protect the incredible gift of the teachings, which at the same time don't need protecting.
I never did get to know the man Marc, himself and so I am on the side of using the words "don't shoot the messenger." If any material presented resonates with us, that's all that matters in our spiritual growth. It is healthy to discern the need to donate thousands, of course, and for some people that is a drop in the bucket. In my case, it was the cost of some tapes which transformed my life. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.160.218.209
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 2:17 am: |
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YES PLEASE DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER, this by the way includes Andrew. There are many people who are benefiting from reading this information who are not registered posters. A great deal of the time people expect a man like Jon Marc to be perfect, even setting him on a pedestal. This link is here to serve as a reminder to many to be just as or more skeptical with those on a so called "New Age or Spiritual Path." Plus when people especially women hear the words love used before and after ever subjective phrase they loose their prespecitve. Just because a person is singing love, love, is no indication that they have nor are they necessarily living love. Often we listen to what people are telling us but we give little to no attention to who they truly are; and base on their words we pay reverence to them as if they are God.
I tend to agree with Andrew that the fundemental nature of a person rarely ever changes. What does it say to others that this man is courting a woman who is close in age to his grandchildren? How much has he really changed? I am not the judge but I want to know.
(Message edited by kip on October 06, 2005) |
love_of_life (love_of_life)
New member
Username: love_of_life
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 60.228.40.229
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
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"when people especially women hear the words love used before and after ever subjective phrase they loose their prespecitve"
Putting us in our place I see, as only a man can.
Christian are we???
The age difference I think is 20, maybe 25 years, old grand kids. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 9:56 pm: |
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Love of life, I am not a Christian. This topic is of deep concern to me. If I intended any malice I could have posted this topic on Jayem's message board. This topic is important and it is something we need to educate ourselves on. Do you know that of all crimes child molesters are more likely to repeat the crime, than any other criminal? We are not speaking of something that is false. The man himself admited that he commited the crime.
In earlier post you were admantly defending him, thankfully he admitted his actions. I admire him for it byt it does not remove my fears.
I do not understand the age that you have posted, in fact your post was incomprehensible. Isn't this man in his 60s, and the woman he is with is she not in her 20s. If you cannot see the pattern then I will not be able to explain it to you. |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 11:54 pm: |
|
If it is that much of a concern and is really important to you to educate people, stop throwing the pebble on the ground, aim for the pond instead. It makes a louder sound and has more of a far reaching effect.
In other words, don’t Chinese whisper let your opinion out of the closet and post on Jayem's message board, instead of going one duck get the whole flock. This man is a big boy, bring it out in the open and let these people think for themselves. Some may turn away and the rest will defend him, others only want to hear the message and change their lives without human intervention.
By the way the lady is about 35 and he is 55, I only deal in facts, to each their own that is why God gave us free will. |
bluemare (bluemare)
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Username: bluemare
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 138.217.117.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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If you only deal in facts then get your facts straight. The lady in question turned 30 in June 2005 and he will be 54 this month, and they've been together for 18 months. I doubt she knows of his past or of the posts being made here. |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
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Hello Bluemare,
I can see that you are a beautiful and friendly person and it is wonderful to see that you display the true heart and mentality of someone who has studied with Jayem. You should be proud of yourself. You are a shining example of an up standing follower of Jeshua.
The word ABOUT means approximately, that means give or take a few months or years. Now I thing I was a little closer than Kip at the guess of age. Also, in your hast to criticise, you missed the point that I was attempting to make, that is Jayem is not dating his grandchild as Kip implied and that the age difference is more than acceptable by today’s social standards.
Just in case you have a problem telling who is friend or foe in the defence of Jayem, his beautiful lady and the other people in this forum, a number of us DON’T CARE about the past “F the past” as Jayem says. I only care about the words and fundamental principles that come out of him, he is the messenger not the message.
If well-meaning people hiding in this forum wish to denigrate the man, so be it. However, with what is happening here, his story will be known soon enough. Those that wish to run away and point the figure will, but there will be those that will stand and carry on teaching and spread the words that Jeshua gave him.
Where do you think you will be Bluemare?
Can not wait for your next miss directed statement, if you are worried about what they will think, why don’t you tell them, Jayem already knows and had posted here….. Don’t judge them both to be weak, we are all accountable for our past, it is how we live now. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 12:14 am: |
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LET US NOT THROW WORDS AT EACH OTHER. I did not start this post but when I read it I went through all the stages of grief. I became shocked, sad, angry, confused. I have talked about this to no end. I hoped that others would post their thoughts. Those who have decided to ignore the past, how did you get there? If your learned that your son or daughter's favorite teacher has commited such a crime would you, could you ignore it and regard it as the past?
How much can a person change? What if they dont change, do we ignore what they have done and focus only on what they are telling us? |
justice_101 (justice_101)
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Username: justice_101
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 2:01 am: |
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Kip stop hiding in this forum and show a little tenacity, if you were so concerned why don’t you act, your the one hiding in a dark room complaining about no light, get off your backside and TURN THE LIGHT ON.
I don’t care about Jayem himself, he is not the one that is in my life. Frankly I would never leave a child male or female in the company of an adult, alone, anyway. I was a victim at age 8. Knowing what I know about Jayem I would not be found alone with him even at my age (37).
I purchased the CD's and am presently doing an on-line course, it is phenomenal how it has change my perspective of life and those around me.
The only way to test his resolve and commitment to his word is to make a loader hullabaloo. Go and put it on Jayem’s forum, bring it out in the open. For what he teaches I think it will have little effect.
(Message edited by Justice_101 on October 20, 2005) |
bluemare (bluemare)
New member
Username: bluemare
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 138.217.117.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 4:00 am: |
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Sorry Justice but you've got me all wrong. Firstly I'm not a follower of Jayem, I've never studied any of his teachings and I'm just as shocked and angry about knowing his past.
All I wanted was to point out that "about" is not a fact and that age speculation can be put to rest. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 12:34 am: |
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Justice, I am confused by your words. Truly I dont know if you are friend or foe. On one hand you seem to be concerned and defensive. On yhe other hand I suspect that you would love to see somone make a hullabaloo as you put it. I think you want to see some form of a fight. This topic is naturally one that is shocking. Why should everyone just accept it with out questioning it? Is this the kind of blind ignorance that this man's Cd is teaching you? |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 12:54 am: |
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Please Justice101 DO NOT respond. Your tone is very snide and full of sacarsm. If anyone else who happens to be filled with the light that I and others dont seem to have at this moment please share your insight; Otherwise keep your snide remarks to yourself. Justice101, on one hand you advocate ignoring this man's past, then you say you in your old 37 years would not be alone with this man!!!!!
What are you telling us? Speak coherantly. Is the medication taking too long to wear off. You are dribbling. Are you still wearing the tags on your wrist from the loony bin? Did you escape through the back window? Are the authorities still looking for you? |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.124.169
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 1:49 am: |
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wow what a powerful, and interesting thread....in all of this reading, which i find fascinating, it seems to be evident that the 'MYSITIC LOVER' is the right name for all of this.... we are all created in God's Love, we are all one - yet it is our humaness and our human emotions which seperate us! In all of this, I think that it is not our business to condem and judge this man - however, obviously we feel the need to do so, perhaps we feel cheated by him, or feel that his actions are unforgivable. Perhaps is is our own searching which is getting us to read and to respond to this thread.... In all of this the question which arises, is: DOES A MAN WHO VIOLATES THE TRUST, RESPECT AND LOVE OF A CHILD...ever change? Is the 'way of the heart' a bandaid used to cover up the wounds which run deep, and are we all lying to ourselves in order to feel enlightened? do we need another MAN to teach us, or is it our hearts we need to listen too...perhaps, we are lost, alone and resentful of our past, and our conditioning (often our families)...and does the wounds of a child who was betrayed, truly heal, or is it us, who support this man, saying to her "your father is more than your pain"...Im not sure. Im not sure whether a man who betrays and violates his loved ones is not on a power trip, nor am I sure that a child who's soul has been raped ever truly heals....I guess, like the child - if we are told something enough - we believe it-until, inevitably 'free will' questions it. Its like being in a room with everyone who has a cold, sooner or later we are going to catch a cold.... I do feel sad for the situation, I do feel challenged by the teachings, I do feel confronted and cheated.... I think that getting away from the people with a cold, may enable me to heal and get over the cold...So I guess, the real thing I am thinking when I am writing this, is how can we condem this MAN when he is only that....arent we all messengers???
Bluemare - you seem to be the odd one out! You are not a follower, you feel angry, yet you know a lot about Jayem and his partner. You state dates and that she doesnt know....Do you think that If she did know she would be strong enough to get over her cold??? Or perhaps, she does know...and yet likes/and loves what this man gives her - he LOVES her, and yes love is blinding, but arent we all a victim of the power of love. Do you think that he woudl be so secretive not to have told her??? im not sure where your personal view point stems from.....
Perhaps, Freud was right, and Jayem's partner lacked real parental love and finds the love in jayem to be real...Anyhow, Isnt love unconditional....perhaps, conditions are the reason we all got here in the first place. Whether we spend a life time trying to be NOT like or parents - or like our parents...CONDITIONING.....what a scary thing! I do believe that often we are taught to worship the 'god of money' and seek richness in the wallet and not the heart.....often the conditions are too much, and stroking our parents ego's and demands are too much...and perhaps Jayem uses his partner to heal...after all his ego is stroked being with a person young enough to be his daugher - perhaps he wont re commit.....i doubt he would....he has a child like love in his life to compensate/ and she has a father figure giving her love.....
Anyhow, I guess, its not our business! If we choose to follow or not, if we choose to believe or not, if we choose to seek or not, if we choose to lie to ourselves and blame others or not.......what these people do - is not our business...whether it is SICK (mentally) or not. |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 12:51 am: |
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Ha ha ha ha …………Kippy Kippy Kippy…… Doesn’t take much to push your buttons and show people your true colors. Only intellectually deficient people fling personal insults when they can’t think of anything else rational to say. Lost the plot did we....You’re funny and very hypocritical. “LET US NOT THROW WORDS AT EACH OTHER” you said and your last two messages said it all. Why two? Did you write one and then 20 minutes later have a meltdown and turn into your true self. THAT, IS SARCASM KIP as you seem to have a problem recognizing it.
I didn’t say anything about you nor anyone else being filled with light Kip, as I know even you are. I said “your the one hiding in a dark room complaining about no light, get off your backside and TURN THE LIGHT ON”.
In layman’s terms you are sitting in a dark room…Suns gone down that kind of thing and you have to get up of your bum and turn the light on…..
That is the biggest problem with forums, someone could write something heart felt yet to the point, then someone comes along and reads it, they’ve had a bad day and a distrustful mind and then they twist the real words and intension. That’s were you come in Kip.
There are two types of people in this world, the doer’s and the do nots. The doer’s get off their tails and go about finding ways to solve problems and the do nots sit on their behinds and grumble about them. You are the problem Kip, not apart of the solution.
By the way could you please show me the error of my ways by pointing out the tone in my message, as they generally don’t make noises? The tone is in your head, everybody reads it differently. As for the snideness and being full of sarcasm, could you please make reference. As you said my “old 37 years” is letting me down and my mind is going, plus I feel you are highly unstable to think that my messages are full of sarcasm, when your last message says it all…… Childish dribble from the unintelligent
All children on this plant are the responsibility of EVERYONE, AND I MEAN ALL OF US.
Sending molesters to jail as a solution will always fail. Why? Because in order for a molester to be jailed, the criminal justice strategy requires that our children be sexually abused.
Without a victim, authorities can't make a move. The horror in any case is the waiting. All the adult protectors (including you Kip and Andrew) of these little girls and boys have to wait, powerless. First, they waited while thousands of little girls and boys are sexually abused. Then they wait for a little girl or boy to tell an adult. But that isn’t the end of the waiting……. They also have to wait for one of the thousands of little girls or boys to tell an adult who is willing to report the case or post a questioning message on the offender’s own forum. While they waited, they allowed offenders to go on molesting little girls and boys for countless years.
Now this is where you, Kip and Andrew come into this. Any person that knows or suspects someone to be an offender WILL carry the responsibility of EVERY other child that the offender assaults from that time on.
I will not join a witch-hunt for a man that has had in depth counselling as well as being incarcerated, he is not on a perpetrators listing and is permitted out of this country. I simply don’t know enough about him. The study (The Way of the Heart and the Jewels) that I have done gives me insightful things about him. Also, it has helped me in my realisation that if I forgive the man that took away my ability to have children at age 8 and a father at age 10......You see my father could not get over the grief that his long-term friend removed my right to be a child and a woman.
The biggest crime here is that a person like you Kip would watch a crime being committed, then stands back, and says, “I went through all the stages of grief I became shocked, sad, angry, confused”, and then you Kip do nothing about it except sit on a message board saying meaningless things.
Experts, who have been working with adult and juvenile sex offenders for 20 years, said many of the criminals they get have been exposed to sex at a very young age. Some were molested themselves; others simply discovered sexual arousal early on. Like the majority (99%) of 8, 9 and 10 year olds of today. Hey Kip are you getting ready for the child molestation that is about to happen in the next ten years, it will not be one in five girls or one in ten boys at present. Will you and Andrew be hiding in a Religious forum NOT doing something positive about the ones you do know?
If you do not have faith in the rehabilitation system, why don't you and Andrew get together and campaign for the death penalty for all sexual crimes. That way you can feel safe.... Oh but hang on, you would not have anything to whinge about would you.
I have had my last say, you are a waste of space… So I will respect your wishes to go away and never reply.
Raven you put words together in a better fashion then I, I wish you love and good luck. 
(Message edited by Justice_101 on October 22, 2005) |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 1:34 am: |
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raven, thank you for responding. There are many points which you touched on that has given me much to chew on. You are correct, in the final analysis we do have to tend to our own business. There is no way to know the true depth of the issues people are facing or if they have healed from them or not.
The idea is gallant, applying it is quite an effort...and we begin. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 130.194.13.105
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |
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question.....? If you found out that a priest molested another... whether it be a boy or a girl....and obviously not his child, could he seek your forgiveness, and allow him to practice in the name of God, would you attend his masses, and allow him to be your messenger of the word? Or would you find it in your heart, to forgive him? Because obviously he has seeked redemption and forgiveness for his actions which affected another.
I guess the pendulum swings....to and froe....
Aint life beautiful with all its contradictions and hypocricy....
Let your heart (which is governed by God) be your counsellor, spend your time living the lessons, and learning from everyone around you, and be openend to the pain, as it is in pain that we have growth....It is just as important as happiness to come to know our selves. Everyone's pain is unique and a gift....because it shows us to ourselves....Gos speaks to us through everyone - not one.... and it is written! |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 130.194.13.105
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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Justice....Thankyou! I have love. I practice in love. and often when times are hard its the love of God which fuels my love for myself. We are created in love, and we are specimens of love...that is the only thing that differentiates us and all oter creatures....
The beauty of love is it highlights every other emotion...I believe it is free - it comes with no cost, and therefore, i have a problem paying for it, when it is within me.
Hope you read this, and feel....
Use the lesson of your pain, let go of the pain in itself. As humans we hold on to our pain, because it is what we can control...
I wish you find your inner peace, and love, and respect...after all, no one else can give you permission to find these.
God Bless. Raven |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 12:00 am: |
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Yes I would be able to forgive him, in my heart knowing that he and I both are human. I dont know if one sin/mistake is greater than another. However I would not be able to listen to his surmons. Because someone has asked for forgiveness does not automatically mean that they are healed. Forgiving him does not make me blind to what he has done or is capable off. This is my honest feeling. I would love to say that I could hug and kiss and forget any wrong doing on the part of the man who does a thing like that. But truth is healing is most times a long hard road, especially from one who commits a raw animalistic act on such an innocent life.
I believe that when a person is careless in one respect that energy of carelessness creates a vibration in many other areas of their life. Molestation is only just one way it manifests itself. Whatever it is that created this happening is running a virus in other areas of that person's life that we cannot see. Its like having a computer virus, it affects your email but what other programs has it affected that you cannot yet see? |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 12:16 am: |
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LOVE is a great thing but love needs to be tough also. If we did not have corporal punishment years and years ago people would still be murdering each other in the streets, with no remorse. As human beings we are gross in our understanding and our ways. The gentle kind of love does not work for everyone. We have to be honest, it is foolish to turn away and pretend that we do not see or know that a person has done a bad act. Ignoring and ignorance is not love at all.
As for the man in question, I cannot tell what he is nor where he is. I gave up trying to understand him. My last post was simply to answer your question. I will leave this topic for now since I do not have more to add. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.117.7
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 3:21 am: |
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to be ignorant of ones ignorance is the malady of the ignorant....
answer, noted and respected... |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.253.64.24
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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For some reason, rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind, which may sound flippant, but I mean no disrespect to any of the posters.
It is just that I don’t hear anyone doubting the validity of ideas of love and forgiveness. I think we all agree on this because they are good and noble ideas or goals.
My argument is that these ideas and concepts are available to us all, in millions of books and spiritual organizations. Mark Hammer has never really told us anything new, which is perhaps why the popular new age talk of “energy” is so often used to explain all kind of things when words and intellect run dry.
My problem with Mark Hammer has more to do with his honesty, rather than what he has done, or what he may do. In his posting here he implies that his rape of his step daughter was the catalyst for his conversion/channeling of Jesus. Now, if his teachings and writing had ever explained this, I might feel less nervous about what he is pedaling. Whether you are after a vegetable or information it makes sense to find out something about where it comes from. If the product is free, you should be doubly suspicious.
My goal in posting here is to allow people to have the same information that I have and let them make up their own minds. I just happened to find out about Mark Hammers past and was annoyed at his failure to mention this important fact about the origin of his channeling, even when specifically asked about it.
There is some kind of logic to the pedophile to messiah conversion, but it is just a little too neat for me. If someone felt so bad about what they had done and devoted the rest of their life to good works, after a Christian revelation, I would understand. If they decided to make a living out of preaching the word of God that might be OK. But, actually channeling Jesus (thinly disguised as Jeshua) and taking on the bearing and to some extent the role of the messiah rings too many alarm bells.
As I have said before, a great many of us are looking for answers, but you have to be very careful and (to use an unpopular concept) critical about people who claim to be able to provide the answers. I prefer answers which I can work out for myself. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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Andrew, yes I am happy that you made this information available to us; but do you really believe that Jon Mac would or should tell everyone that he has committed this crime? Or, are you querying the channeling? |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.255.32.17
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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Marc says 'My own journey of healing began profoundly as a result of my behavior with my step daughter' and it is my belief that he should be open about this and answer direct questions with direct answers as Marc Hammer not as Jeshua.
I am not out to change everyones mind about channeling. I was once fascinated by it, but have come to the conclusion it is a scam. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
|
 Understood!
Was wondering this very recently, as recent as yesterday. Is it more profitable to sell books and seminars when people have "channeled master" under their names? sure
This tread has been highly healing for me. It has taken me to the place where I need to take the veil of naivety off and stop being as gullable as I always seem to be. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.117.7
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 12:13 am: |
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i think that the scam lies in the 'profit' component.....
i read a brilliant book once, when i was a little person,,,,the book was about the confessions of a cult leader.... he wrote about, how he 'got off on the control' and if you get a person to give up 'will power' you can promise them the world...after all you own their will power.
This rings in my head, reading this thread.
We all channel, we all are instuments of love...
The question which is true to me, is why give glorification to another man, when we too are created equal.
If we all live like this, free from fear, which is installed in our society, conditioning, blah blah blah...Then we all will reap the rewards (profits) of love. We should not have to pay for it from someone else to give it to us...
Kip, I think that FEAR is the most natural phenomenon,emotion that we have....does a rabbit feel fear when a wild dog is about to eat it....Its how we deal with this fear, and respect our fears, and the fears of others that promotes growth.
After all, it s only when we are out of our comfort zone that we are in our learning zone - now thats'fucking scary - yet real, and rewarding. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.220.182
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 1:18 am: |
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i agree!
most love the last line: After all, it s only when we are out of our comfort zone that we are in our learning zone - now thats'••••••• scary - yet real, and rewarding. This is true! |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.117.7
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:49 am: |
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a guy named andrew just joined the 'Mystic Lover' forum....is this you andrew...about to make a revelation? If it is so....I wish you strength, wisom and courage. If not, or well... In God's time - all we be revealed. |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.255.32.17
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
|
Hello Raven.
No, it's not me, but you never know;-) |
charlotte (charlotte)
New member
Username: charlotte
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.69.55.52
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 12:25 am: |
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I have been sitting here reading all of these posts and it came to me that maybe it isn't about what anyone else has done. It is how I respond. If I am at peace in the love that I am, I can feel the feelings of betrayal, shock, confusion, move through them at the deepest level, let them go and act on how I am informed by spirit. If I choose to hold on, I hurt only myself. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.130.9
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 7:07 am: |
|
Charlotte, as a follower of Jayem....i think that it is interesting that you are still reading the posts.....I wonder how many other people are still reading these posts....I also wonder why, more people are not as fearless as you and write on a public forum. There are obviously a few people reading this....It would be interesting to see what people are thinking, and feeling.....because, arent their lessons, gifts from God which in sharing - then they are allowing themselves to be the messenger too? There seems to be some fear in a group of people who pronounce other wise. I am sure that Jayem is reading this too....as he is only human.
In direct response to your post.... It definitely isnt about what anyone else has done. It is all about you. I think that this is the common vein in this thread. I believe that you will be able to feel and move on - what this thread seems to be about, is that Marc Hammer, in his teachings - which he charges for -and maintains control over via the internet - is profiting from people like us.....or more specifically you. The fact that you allow yourself to purchase the teachings, means that you allow yourself to be helped....Andrew mentions earlier on that there are many books etc which do the same. He once was a person who was a follower and he opened his eyes.
The main pulse of this thread is that - Marc Hammer - abused - and the pattern doesnt seem to be broken as he is apparently is in a relationship with a person who is yound enough to be his child......the pattern -- continues...
I think that if Jayem was in a different relationship, and not with a person who (apparently) does not know,,,, and is childlike to him - then one could say that his healing is fair dinkum.....
Jayem has supposeably studied Psychology....if this is so, then he knows that punishment does not work.... This is a repeated documented fact....as too are the facts that a person who Molests a child will not ever be completely healed....why do you think that all paedaphiles are kept a record of for the rest of their lives......perhaps Byron Bay is a easier place to hide in.......
I trust that you are not unaware of the above mentioned..... The paoint of this thread is the
'act' the
'deceit' and dthe facts......beyond forgiveness....
Question. How would you feel if it was your daughter dating a man that molested his child..... how would you feel if it was that close to home? |
charlotte (charlotte)
New member
Username: charlotte
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.69.55.52
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 2:15 am: |
|
How would I feel? If my daughter was dating a man that molested his child? On the face of things, with being presented with a fact that my daughter's boyfriend had molested his child, my first instinct would be to tell her to unequivicably, leave before it happened to a child she knew.
And if the point of this thread is that the act and the deceit and the facts will occur again and are beyond forgiveness, then I come face to face with the realization that no, I wouldn't want my daughter associating with a "pedophile".
Lets look at the other side for just a moment, because the teachings are all about forgiveness. What hurt is my daughter's boyfriend protecting or projecting, Who abused him? If she wanted to stay with this man I would be worried, yes, of course. But if she and he were determined he had healed, what could I say? I'd hope that they'd both attend emotional release therapies for him to clear away the old energies and start fresh on a moment to moment basis. It would be important for her to be consistently aware of what each present moment was bringing to their relationship of course. As for whether he'd healed in the abuse regard or not, she would need to be aware, fully, as to whether their relationship was lacking in integrity or honesty and then act on it. The issue here, for her, would be, "Is this man serving our relationship by being in integrity , transparent and authentic in each moment, and am I in integrity in my trust of him?" If the answer was yes to both, then the moments in integrity would go shoulder to shoulder, side by each into the next moment, and so on. If the man was truly healed, would their relationship not be a benefit to both of them? Then who would judge them?
Sigh.....thank you Raven. Very thought provoking discussion. wow. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.160.224.6
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 10:02 am: |
|
A quote from The Mystic Lover's page:
What about you?
My own journey really began in Vietnam. I was 19. After a particularly hellish firefight, I had an experience. That night I was digging a foxhole, and suddenly (I now understand it was a moment of cosmic consciousness) I literally felt stretched to infinity, I lost all sense of my individual separateness, I felt I was the sunset, I was the trees, all of these things . . . and the next thing I knew - whoosh - I was back to being me, a 19 year old soldier, holding on to a shovel, but it was pitch black, which meant I had been standing there for probably an hour, with no sense of time. I got into my foxhole, and said, "God, if there is such a thing, I have to know what you are and what all this is about." I didn't get an answer, so I went back to being an angry 19 year old saying, basically, "screw it"....
So that began my journey, and now, over thirty years later, through various yogas and meditation practices, psychology, the whole thing, and the experience with Jeshua who came to me and appeared in a field of light in my living room and - talk about really creating humility quickly! - I have come to have this great love of the Divine Mystery.
It can all be found on this page: http://www.themysticlover.com/exponent/index.php?section=11
This is an interesting story which begin his opening to where we find him now. What age was he when he molested his daughter again? Also, why was I under the impression that his contact with Jeshua begin in the prison? I may have misread something.
The stories I heard from others who have joined in his retreats make me think about the sincerity of this man. Earier someone said that the present woman he is with is in her mid 30's, what I have heard from my girlfriend and her mother is that the last few relationships were within the same age.
I listen to their conversations about Jeshua. All day my girlfriends mother infurs to Jeshua and what Jeshua would like her to do in this or that circumstance, its annoying to say the least. It has not stopped her from divulging Jayem's personal life. He has had many short stints with women young enough to be his daughters. She speaks of it in a matter of fact way, "Well, if Jeshua says that Jayem has learned all that he can from this one then it is time to dump her." Is that what the teachings are about? Is this just the pathetic behavior of a man who will disguise his vices veiled as lessons from Jesus? This is obviously a man who loves young beautiful woman, can't fault him for it but does all of his channeling and outings to sacred places not reak of deceit and manipulation.
There are many people whom we trust to be an example for what they are teaching, who are manipulators in disguise.
(Message edited by kip on November 03, 2005) |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 7:40 pm: |
|
Is it wrong to embrace the teaching and not the man??? |
charlotte (charlotte)
New member
Username: charlotte
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.69.55.52
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 9:44 pm: |
|
Do any of you know this man personally? |
danaj (danaj)
New member
Username: danaj
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 62.255.32.17
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 6:25 pm: |
|
I have been reading this forum with interest and trying to decide if I should speak up or not. I lived with Marc Hammer for about two years around 1989-1991. This was during the time he was writing the Jeshua Letters and the relationship ended just as it was published. I first met Marc in a yoga class he was teaching near Tacoma, Washington. I was in my mid 30’s and feeling that there must be more to life and I wanted to find out what it was. And you can imagine how it felt when the yoga teacher and channel of Jesus picked ME to have a relationship with. Talk about feeling special…
I think this is very relevant regarding the discussions here. It’s that feeling of being made to feel special. Isn’t this what pedophiles do with children? Just because we are adults doesn’t mean we aren’t susceptible to this flattery especially when you may be vulnerable during spiritual and personal crisis. And in picking such an enigmatic figure in the western world to channel, Marc is setting himself up as the great, good and caring figure one wishes could have been ones father. This is his MO in all of his relationships, romantic or not. Some of you like to think of it as loving…
I found out about the molestation of his step daughter “accidentallyâ€. I put that in quotes because with Marc nothing ever happens accidentally. It is all orchestrated with his needs and wants dictating what will happen with little regard as to how those around him are affected. (I know this may be sounding a little like the jilted girlfriend but, believe me, I have let that go a long time ago.) When I came across some legal documents he left out for me to “find†regarding his crime, I felt so sickened and shocked by it. That evening when he returned from work, I confronted him. What he said sickened me even more as he seemed to have no idea of the hurt he had caused his young step daughter. Marc claimed that the problems she subsequently had were not because he molested her but because he was arrested and taken away from her. They were in love. He may not be molesting children but his sociaopathic patterns continue. (The question ‘why didn’t I leave’ could be a whole other Oprah.) He did a great mumbo jumbo job on me about forgiveness, following my heart, etc. and I wanted to be a good disciple (girl) and try to grow while seeking his love. Two weeks later the parole officer made a final house visit as Marc’s parole was ending.
As far as his degrees go, the only one I know about wasn’t really a degree, I don’t think. He took a philosophy 101 course at Tacoma Community College. It also seems Marc has many different stories as to his enlightenment. Vietnam is news to me as it was when Marc mentioned (in his posting on this site) that his enlightenment began as a result of his molestation of his step daughter. I was under the impression that his enlightenment happened in Hawaii on the Big Island and in his living room in Tacoma. I mention this because I have been interested in watching how he has been reinventing himself. Are the name changes, moving house and different women every few years working to distance him (and us) further and further from Marc Hammer the pedophile?
He is the Master Manipulator as someone, who was with him during his trail and incarceration, described him to me. The message isn’t his. In the end I grew up and saw that he is just a middle aged bald guy who picks his nose…nothing else.
Just for the hell of it, look up the definition for sociopath in the dictionary or Google it. Or have a look at http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.161.216.89
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
|
Very interesting!
You said something which triggered a thought I had long held but did not express. As a manipulator he must have done a very good job of convincing his young daughter that she needed to forgive him. Maybe even convince her that his raping her was for her own spiritual enlightenment.
Assuming her innocence and self worth was destroyed at that tender age she is most likely holding alot of guilt for her father spending years in prison. So in essence the victim now reverese her role and believes herself to be the victimiser. Many adult women who are abused do it. They reach the point of almost loosing their lives, yet when they have the opportunity of sending their abusers to jail they dont. They profess their undying love for their abusers and go back for more abuse.
That sociopath link clearly defines the man who has been described to me. In the days when I was first told about him something inside told me that something was just not wholesome about him. Now a few years later I find that I was right.
thanks for sharing your story danaj |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.255.32.17
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 7:12 am: |
|
Absolutely fascinating.
I had never read the definition of a sociopath before, and although it has some rather over dramatic bits, the character profile it presents matches up scarily well with the Marc Hammer I met. Anyone connected with the organisation around him should stand back, take a deep breath and have a good rational look at what is going on.
What is amazing to me is that this type of personality is well researched and defined yet we keep falling for them. From the local aberrant priest to David Koresh, these types of people are very slick with words and understand what people are looking for. If you have spiritual questions then your doors are wide open. As I have said before, if someone walks in and claims to have the answers then alarm bells should go off. Walk the other way and find answers for yourself.
Marc Hammer is pedalling a dream to avoid having to work for a living and he gets a big kick out of it too. The whole Mystic lover, Shanti Christo thing is not about making the world a better place, it is about making the world a better place for Marc Hammer!
I sincerely hope the information from this message board leaks into the world of Mystic Lover and people start to ask Mr Hammer some straight questions and insist on rational and straight answers. My guess is you won’t get a straight answer, but there will be some discrediting of DanaJ and a lot of waffle about forgiveness, love and living in the light.
The bad news about the internet is that it allows people like Marc Hammer to pedal their brand of snake oil more widely than they otherwise might, and the good news is, it allows us to keep an eye on him and have this kind of discussion out in the open for all to see at any time. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.130.9
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 2:03 am: |
|
wow....this message board is truly a blessing.
Lets all face it, the only reason why we are posting on this, is because we care for others....
the only reason why we keep reading this, is because we care for ourselves...
the only reason why we care about the 'MYSTIC' lover....is because we were, know someone or want to help a family member who is a part of this.... In all of this.... we are binded.
THIS IS ABOUT LOVE...
THE UNCONDITONAL KIND, WHICH IS SHARED AMOUNGST STRANGERS...WHO DO NOT EXPECT A THANKYOU OR FORM OF PAYMENT.... THERE IS NO EGO HERE....
If this message board helps one person to 'free' their addiction to the teachings...then this is powerful. If one person decides to spend more time listening to their child/friend/partner/parent, as apose to teaching them the message..then this is worth it...Rather than paying Jayem to teach us and give us the answers...perhaps a holiday...because the answers are within the heart, we just have to make the mistakes to learn the lesson, for ourselves, in reality, in the mix of society and all the beauty which comes from the diversity and mystery.
AFTERALL, IF WE ARE LIVING IN THE MOMENT, DO WE HAVE THE TIME TO CONSTANTLY THINK OF WHAT JESHUA IS TELLING US IN THAT MOMENT.I RECKON THE MOMENT AINT THAT LONG...
ARE WE TRULY LIVING IN OUR MOMENT??? OR, IN FEAR OF OUR MOMENT - USING JESHUA AS A CRUTCH -
THE REASON WHY THIS MESSAGE BOARD IS...
IS BECAUSE THE 'TRUTH' OF THIS MAN - IS NOT!
The level of concern, the level of knowledge and the level of enlightenment which is posted here, makes my heart smile. Complete strangers are being 'gentle warriors' touching and sharing.
It blows my mind at the clarity, the level of expression and the level of language which is here.....
Its written in normal english - with a level of profanity - wow! None of this 'spiritual' crap...regurgitated words, and jargin, which are taught and repeated.... and obviously, we all hold a sense of love - respect -and peace in our hearts....without the need for the crutch.
To those who are reading this who are 'followers' of Marc.... 'LIVE' we dare yah! take the good and the bad....pain, comes with a gift of growth.... LIFE IS BEAUTY...Yes even yours.
On a more specialised note: thankyou danaj... thankyou for your beautiful post - which comes with the gift of love to others... You are obviously bigger than the man who once 'used' you. Lucky you! Your post brought a tear to my eye, as there was no malice - yet obviously you have self forgiveness.....that is truly a sigh on grace. I wish you all the best on your journey, Your words....and your message is truly a reflection of why you got involved with this man in the beginning - obviously your 'spirit' still touches those you meet in a subtle, humble, yet real way. God bless you (i dont mean Jeshua either - how could I he's a fucken lie)
Andrew: thanks champ - i have a feeling/ not a channelling that this is the prelude before the dance for many people in their lives - your knowledge will aid in freedom....respect!
Kip: your last post was extremely real....
Justice: I reckon you 'know' that the teaching cannot be real if the man is living a lie.
Charlotte: I hope you are well....Free and proud of yourself. |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 7:48 pm: |
|
I see, so it was Danaj that you met and married thanks to Jayem. At least he was good for something for you both, I wish you well and much love. And thank you both for your insight, but, I hope now that you have started this line of challenging and questioning peoples belief systems (their true convictions), that you will continue to ask the hard questions on the other forum.
I have a story about my association and am happy to say that the CD changed my life, however I could not come to grips with the money issues associated with turning Jeshua into a business and financing round the world trips at the expense of financially destitute single moms.
How long ago did you both move to the U.K.? |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
|
Well that has just confirmed what Kip said about me was very true.
The above message was for Andrew and Danaj. Sounds like I was having a talk to the stratosphere sorry about that.
 |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.233.83
| | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
|
Justice, I am curious! Are you a member of the other forum? If you are why don't you post these questions that you have suggested earlier of myself or andrew? I would be very interested in reading what the members of that board have to say about Jayem. Call me a coward if you will but I don't believe I have the what it will take to do it. I am sure many of them do not have the slightest idea of what we know.
Since Jayem and his followers believe in embracing all that is...then this should be included.
Danaj, I would like to hear more from you. Are you saying it is only at the end of your two years that Jayem told you what he had done?
(Message edited by kip on November 11, 2005) |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
|
Sorry Kip I am not a member of the other board, do you have the address?
I too would also like to know more about Danaj and Andrew as they have the same IP address in the UK. I feel that they would be better suited to place a notification about Jayem’s past, because I have not met the man and know very little about him personally except what I have been told by a friend.
I have only studied The Way of the Heart CD’s some 5 years ago in the US and have undertaken another courses. So my life’s attitude had changed well prior to learning about the author (medium) of such powerful writings and currently use it in my day to day job. Ironically, it is the legal removal and protection of minors and juveniles.
So I kinda hope that someone that has the insight into the man can bring this to the fore; not for the conflict (Lord knows you learn more about people that way) but for the due diligence he should have towards his beliefs and teachings. And to the Administrators of study groups and workshops, those that are making money from the teachings. I was told (hear say) that in one week from a gathering $18,000.00US was taken from over 150 people. I have no idea if this kind of thing is right…. I have never been to a study group or gathering so I don’t know.
Reverend Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite (of the Heaven’s Gate) all started their groups the some way by word of mouth and look how they ended.
Jesus walked the land also and progressed as a leader in the same way, however, he lived his life by his own conviction. Two thousand years later men are still trying to obtain the some power from people, but if not for a very discriminating difference, Jesus lived by his word.
Can Jon Marc Hammer? We will never know until he and his administrators stop hiding behind a big secret.
I would love to know if the way I have lived my life for so long, has come from an ultimate manipulator or someone that has the right like everyone else to be forgiven of their past and given the love and trust bestowed on a great man as it should have been on Jesus.
Boy I can prattle . . . |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.233.83
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 1:15 pm: |
|
Justice, I see that this thread hits home with you in more ways than one. I myself have been curious to my own reason for following it. What are we looking for as an outcome? Is it inconceivable that Jayem would address this topic and express to us that he is not just another Marshall Applewhite? This thread is like a sucide bombing. We go over to the scene to understand how could something like this have happened. I get the feeling that we are not an unforgiving group, we are just looking for answers. There are many cases of paedophiles within the church...would not doubt that they are charismatic and appear very trustworthy.
Now in the states paedophile need to register themselves wherever they live. It would also be a huge stigma in finding a job after having spent time in prison...why not then channel Jesus and get rich from it!!! If this man were married to a woman in his age group it may have been more believable that healing had occured. However there are too many discrepancies in the timming of his channeling to Jeshua, as well as the timing in telling danaj about his past...as well as his affairs with very young women.
Justice, the amount your quoted sounds very easily the truth or could be more. Notice in his post he mentioned that his gatherings are sponsored...well he still charges a good killing for his gathering.
Someone needs to demand answers...we obviously don't have them. |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 60.228.41.187
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 4:04 pm: |
|
Kip, do you have the web address for his board (forum)? If it is the mystic lover, Raven has already been there with little impact. I think someone had said that he had his own.
In my line of work, I have to teach people to forgive just so they can move on. I tell the young ones that they were just in the wrong place at the time that some times people are predestine to do things in their life and unfortunately, they happened to be there at that moment. In their new mind’s they can not see that it is not their fault.
Jayem’s CD’s helped me in realizing this for myself and give me the conviction to do my job and remain detached.
Just had a giggle, I think it is ironical that the molester teaches the molested a way to forgive. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.233.83
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 1:09 am: |
|
yes the website is www.themysticlover.com Did Raven share what was going on in this forum? I would like read what she wrote. Forgiveness is a tough thing sometime, it takes alot of life experience and a deep williness to let things be. With that in mind we cannot turn our backs and ignore something which is as damaging... |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.129.248
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 6:10 am: |
|
ah, perhaps the two being one is an illusion....
God works in mysterious ways....
answers??? im sorry what was the question?
aren't all the quesions different?
aren't we all unique?
and Im tippin, the answers wouldnt safice....
so we have faith, we believe and we know that we are enrolled in one course only. the course of life.....
so we wait and pray and wait and wait - and learn
for everything happens in gods time - not ours.
hey its a case of the chicken and egg....
and i say, that this is merely an act of love - and service....
oh, and an alternative way of planting....
now that will be $250....(ppsst....that's a joke)
god bless...}} |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.255.32.17
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 6:11 am: |
|
Justice, you are a regular Sherlock Holmes aren't you!
I think that Ravens post on the "Mystic Lover" site will cause some soul searching.
It is interesting to see how judgemental they are of this fairly straightforward discussion in plain English. I was feeling like a lower form of life at one point ;-)
Even the most devoted follower will have an amount of doubt buried somewhere. The people attracted to matters spiritual are romantics in search of answers that might banish their doubts.
Marc Hammer has set himself up as an emissary of Jesus offering the promise for relatively well off romantic westerners to banish those doubts.
The nice thing about doubts though, is they never really go away and they help to keep your feet on the ground. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.125.190
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 7:21 pm: |
|
The downside to self doubt, is that it can be extremely debilitating (spelling?).
People then are often turned to search for deeper healing, due to underlying issues with the self of self anger and fear.....
Jayem, has drilled the 'forgiveness' message...to be honest, when i read it, i think to my self "••••" isnt this the same point which was mentioned in paragraph one...it is the same message - repacked...reshaped & reworded....oh, and re-charged $$$
its all so complexed.....
the ego mind.... hah, teaches a man who molests a child, and continues to date a young woman...and continues to date a young woman, and continue to dates a young woman, and continues to date a young woman....and did i mention the dating a young woman thing?
Justice 313 people have viewed the thread on the mystic lover web site.
Defensiveness, is the byproduct of fear, having to protect something... |
justice_101 (justice_101)
New member
Username: justice_101
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:32 pm: |
|
Andrew I am very sorry if I have offended you and Danaj, I just have a memory that I wish I could turn off at times. Your earlier post said that you had met someone via Hammer and you married, I became so excited to see you are still together and supporting each other. Let’s face it, long term relationship these days are scarce and when you find one, well it is simply beautiful. As for Sherlock Holmes, thank you, we work in the same field, investigation.
Another of my peccadillos is my compulsion to tell the truth (a bit like LIAR LIAR the movie). Another is to convey things in around about, yet hopefully provoking way to get people to generate thoughts for themselves. As you have seen, it goes astray with some (now I’m going to cop it). Just one thing, anyone reading this please re-read some of my earlier messages and read them with a soft and gentle voice and them again with a hard and angry voice. You will notice a huge difference. I should start each of my messages the way Suzanne did “This is said with a kind and questioning heart”.
Kip thank you for the site address, very eye opening…..Raven I am sorry if I assumed that it was your message on the other forum …. Who ever it was let the cat out and some of the pigeons don’t like it. It is a normal instinct for animals at the top of the food chain to prey on, or to abandon the weaker in their group. This way the group can evolve into stronger animals.
FROM HERE ON IN IT IS AN ANGRY VOICE
I have made a sickening discovery in some of these people that are closer to the core of Hammer. One even defends so viscously “If you don’t conform, you will be verbally beaten until you submit, or you are left behind”. Heres an example I prepared earlier…. Veridiana refers to people that she does not know, by DEAR, condescending and an attempt at control. . .HUMMM Then she goes on in a manner that can only be described as nasty with a heap of spiteful on the side. . . sounds more like “how dare you shack the foundations of my belief system and future earning potential”. Some of the underprivileged who are looking the asrpin of life and need a path of truth to ease their pain may read this and be turned away.
When I get a moment I shall pick this post up and dump it on the other forum then wash my hands of it and move on. Things come in to your life for a reason and from all of this I have learnt that the reason no longer excites for me; some of the apples in this barrel are rotten to the core.
Veridiana had said in her post
Well, yeah, no wonder, and I tell you something more: the image that came in my mind while I was reading the post in that forum was “of a bunch of old aunties from a small city, sitting around in the kitchen and talking badly about their neighbors”. It actually felt very tiresome to go through the whole thing.
I can not begin to tell you the ugly picture she has given me of the inside of her mind. You Veridiana should know better from your lessons regarding judging others. As far as I am concerned, what everyone says is NOT rubbish and IS interesting. . . . Everyone has their own life stories. . . It is what you choose to take from it. . . Everybody on this planet IS IMPORTANT and has something to contribute, just ask Jeshua, I am sure he did not say that some people speak rubbish. By the way, I found a number of Jayems words (that is word for word) in another book from the late 70s that I am currently reading. Fun how when you ask the right questions the true appears.
You also said “long were the times when I had biased mind”, this comment made me cry genuine tears of confusion and fear. Are saying your messages is not FULL of bias and judgement of us, then I have it so wrong that I would rather stop breathing altogether due to your form of non-judge. Considering you have spent so much time studying with Jayem, sitting at his enlightened feet and by the way I find that unbelievably subservience; the exact point that was made in the beginning about Jayem and his need for having people hanging on his every word and cultivating a kind of dependence. This dependence is for his own survival.
One FACT that I have found in the last 24 hours is that he falsely informs immigration in two countries of his intension of entry and of his prior criminal record, this as he carries on his work peacefully with great responsibility and dignity.
Thank you all for opening my heart and mind to possibilities, but it took one of Jayem’s own foot kissers ‘to turn on the light.
I wish you all a loving life and good health, truly this is the last post as I can see this becoming a war defended by the brain washed and I simply refuse to remain one thank to The Mystic Lover.
Angeni |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.125.190
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
|
}Justice...and you said 'that there was little impact going on'...
I think you just changed that fact. You questioned, poked and prodded...stepped on toes, such as bluemare and kip, and did what you had to do to 'FREE' your heart.
You bring a tear to my eye... for your strength. and obviously self love - as you have fought all the way to freedom. i think if you believe in God. and trust in God, then you trust that you will •••• up, as others will... all the best in work, you being a part of this is obviously you being in the right place at the right time....
I wish you all the best, enjoy your life - colour outside the lines alittle... hey, that's our only obligation = to live...
May God, continue to bless you in abundance, all the days of your life.
Thankyou, for sharing your search, I think you know that Dont doubt the power within you...as you are obviously a strong soldier. You gave yourself permission. What a strong and remarkable thing...
Your tone has blown me away, you sound like you have changed...You seem at peace now. God Bless you...Raven. X |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.131.155
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 7:51 pm: |
|
the rolling stone is gathering some moss... |
suzanne (suzanne)
New member
Username: suzanne
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 203.222.141.210
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
|
Hello everyone,
Raven you are so right, i have become a rat that is jumping.
I feel so sorry for defending these people and their teaching in June. So stupid and ignorant I feel now. I told the true the way I saw it got bitten and now I have changed my mind.
I’m off to be sick and have a cry, normal reaction to shock I suppose.
Suzanne |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.233.83
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 12:08 pm: |
|
This is no time for crying. I know you want to believe that the world has good people and it does. But, you will only attract good people by first ignoring the people who decieve you and becoming what you want. Didn't Ghandi say: Be the change that you wish to see in the world.
Now you learned your lesson, to be patient before you decided what a person is or is not. What if Jayem and his people had not treated you this way and the problem was with someone else. You may still be defending him. That is what alot of people do. If they are not experienceing something first hand they dont care about what you are going though.
This is what this this is all about in the end. People only care if they are having first hand attack with a problem, otherwise they tell you to shut up and become love and just be forgiving. That is not fair, because it is a process. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.131.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:18 am: |
|
Hey Suzanne,
I would say that you are more like a butterfly...ready to take flight, who has been coocooned. Don't doubt your beauty...people are watching you fly.
Crying is good...cry! Cry hard, cry these people out of your vessel.... a lot of healing will come from it.
Forgiveness, to me... is knowing that you did the best you did with what you 'knew' at the time. The lessons are real.
Sounds like you value 'growth'....for that you get respect.
Your willing to take responsibility of your actions, and for that you must be proud.
Enjoy your life, enjoy the next chapter...afterall the past chapters will only be relevant if you continue to read the new chapters ahead... the power and beauty is in the mystery and not knowing.
Dont thank me... I did nothing, you did!
God bless you Suzanne, you sound like a strong woman to me. Jayem and his people treating you like they have is the 'gift' from God which you needed... look at it this way, and build your life from this gift...
Had Jayem or should I say Jon Marc been more of a man, then he probably wouldnt have to conceal the fact that he 'molested' and abused the trust of his child. I feel 'sad' for the fact that he needs everyone else to forgive him, perhaps he hasnt truly forgiven himself...afterall, if he had, why would he need everyone else to lift him in forgiveness....
everyone ••••• up... that's cool...
However, it seems that Jayem hasnt admitted that he has •••••• up at all... it's that simple..where is he hiding now..I wonder if you'll get an explanation, better yet, an appology! I doubt it. He may have to admit he •••••• up again.
Be proud of your self... I guess if this forum was 'full' of lies then the truth wouldnt stand so tall.... many 'truths' are being revealed. and that my friend is what Jesus is about....
"i am a god of truth, those who want to believe in truth, follow me" Jesus, aint gonna manipulate the truth to a person like Jon who uses his name in condemnation...you cant use prayer for personal gain.
Lots of Love, raven. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.233.83
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
|
ah ha! a good point you stated Raven. Can a man like Jayem who seems manipulative and disrespectful of his "SACRED RELATIONSHIP" with Danaj able to channel Jesus. Where does he make the space to bring a Jesus into his being while being dishonest with his woman? Did the teachings not have an impact on him at all?
It is all a farce! This man is a phony who is living large on those rich enough to pay thousands of dollars to heal their low self esteem. |
crystal (crystal)
New member
Username: crystal
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 202.63.54.134
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 1:29 pm: |
|
Hi,
I am not sure whether Jesus would be a respecter of persons when choosing 'who' to use as a medium, but my guess is that He would use a person who was going to fulfill the basic requirement of getting their act together and publishing (disseminating) the teaching. In that respect, perhaps Jon Marc has served Him well (regardless of his past).
I am not even sure if there is such a thing as channelling Jesus (as opposed to the "I AM" presence within all of us). But I do know that this discussion is also a form of indirect attack on the people who read the Jeshua material because they simply resonate with it like they would any other metaphysical teaching.
Most of us who are into metaphysical as opposed to religious material have read fairly widely and many have done courses or workshops for which they
pay money. There are heaps around and at huge costs which would equate to a lot more than the forty dollars a month required for a year-long intensive offered at The Mystic Lover forums. So, I cannot see the difference between doing that course or any other weekend workshop that costs thousands. You could say the whole world is being ripped off in order to grow in understanding....if you perceive such things as being "ripped off". But while people are willing to pay for it, speakers and course facilitators and people that you hold up as gurus (it takes both leader and follower to make a guru) will continue to appear (in service to them really).
So, Why is the discussion here focussing on some people who choose to do this particular course? Why call them "followers of Jayem"? How do you really know what each of these people are expecting to gain from doing the course? It is just a course! And like most courses/books/workshops, you take from it what suits and leave what does not. There is no pressure to do the course or to stick it out till the end and no denials of requests for refunds so how can you call it a cult?
Because it is an online course, many participants have never even met Jayem (J.M.) or Jon Marc. Because it is an online course, many participants are enjoying a sense of online community just as you do here, which often is important to them because it is not easy to find like-minded people in their everyday lives. Not everyone is surrounded by people who want more out of life than job, possessions and family. It is natural that people with a similar vision find each other. But this does not make it a cult. It is also natural to find people with differing opinions, motivations, needs, within the same forum...like here.... so I do not think it is wise to suggest that the members of the mystic lover forums are "puppets" grovelling at the feet of some "master".
Any series of lessons is just that... a series of lessons. You learn if you wish to and you resist learning if you wish to. We all just want to be conscious/aware that learning is a free-will choice rather than finding ourselves being indoctrinated (which only can happen if you allow it). The people on the Mystic Lover have brains too and can decide that for themselves in the same way as you would either pick up or throw down a book or turn on or off a TV show. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt first please. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.131.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 5:45 am: |
|
welcome Crystal to our discussion...
I am alittle confused. But make a mental note to yourself that I am giving you the benefit of the doubt! Sounds like you are more confused than I am... this is NOT a personal attack on your good self. But rather a healthy discussion. So lets be healthy! I thought that the message and the word which you are subscibing to is a byproduct of Jayem..I also presumed that if you are buying into it then you are a follower...Like, for example, I am a follower of the Simpson's. I 'choose' to watch it, choose to give of my energy and time, choose to turn my tv on to episodes which the broadcasting network gains from - in ratings... I have no problem in admitting that I am a follower of the Simpsons. It makes me laugh, it makes me cry and most of the time it sheds some light on the world in which we are apart of... I am able to relate to Marge and her ways, I am able to empathise with Homer, hey, I even understand and forgive Mr Burns....
I love the writing, the humor, the portrayal of 'reality', the tongue in cheek intelligence that is obvious, the politics, the spirituality and most of all I LOVE THAT IT IS ORIGINAL...
The people of the Mystic Lover 'do' have brains...in fact all humans have brains. This is not the question in doubt. All the people have free-will, yes, this is because all of the people have a soul. This is not the question in doubt. We, have never SAID anything that suggests that you are not intelligent. Google the word cult, hey, even tupperware consultants are under the umbrella. It is your belief system. and I respect that. it sounds like you dont respect it! You talk about religion...what the? Jeshua, the lords prayer in aramaic, the muslim prayers the buddhist prayers, the god bless you's the amens, the...the...the blasphomy and prayers and and and...(sounds a little religious to me)
The question in doubt is....
EXPLAINED ON THIS THREAD IN GREAT DEPTH...WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO DATED JON MARC, JON MARC HIMSELF, FOLLOWERS, NON FOLLOWERS, VICTIMS, ABUSERS,AND PEOPLE OF THE LAW AND YOU KNOW WHAT.... their aint no religious vein driving us all together. Its plain english...
Doh! |
crystal (crystal)
New member
Username: crystal
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 202.63.54.134
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 2:17 pm: |
|
Hi Raven,
There is a difference between metaphysics and religion. You can do some research to find out if you want to.
I do not consider myself a follower of Jon Marc, Joel Goldsmith, Barry Long, Eckart Tolle, the Kabalah etc. etc but I can study each of these writings and come up with my own philosophy on life.
The course lessons are not accessible to people who do not subscribe to them so it is a bit hard to discern what the crux of the material is from the general discussion area...so it is impossible for you to make a decision about that.
The only thing I can say about Jon Marc's past (the question in doubt)is that it is out in the open (again) but it does not change the content of the course material, the Way of the Heart writings and the transcripts which so many people benefit from and love....unless you let it! Just like a book you read is not changed by knowing the personal life of the author. Most often, people just read and do not know the author's history anyway.
It reminds me a little about TV too. I loved certain movies and I was disappointed when I found out that a certain spunky actor turned out to be gay...but I still liked the movies he was in. |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 130.194.13.101
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
|
How can you pretend that you dont know?
Its like the Zimbabwe government, black cheating the blacks....
How can I write on, how to raise a child if Ive never had a child?
How can I write on, how to be a Mormon if Im not a mormon?
How can I respect the American government when they speak of 2000 troups dying in Iraq, when they havent told the either side of the story, ie. 200 000 innocent people (women and children have been raped and killed by american troups)
You see, once I know more than I did, then I know...that is the fact.
Its like you find out your husband has another lover...how can you make love to him the same way prior to knowing? if you can then hey, you got it going on....were human, our brains store emotion with memory...its not a matter of choice, its a biological fact.
Its like a child who learns how to walk, but decides to crawl for the rest of its life....
cmon! with holding the truth is ok until its not with held....get my drift.
on a different note - you talking about tom cruise? |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.233.83
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
|
Raven what is your real objective at this point? At this point my feelings have changed a good bit, like all situations in life. At first I wanted to understand how or why a man could do such a thing but he never came back to share.
There are two extremes going on here and on The Mystic Lover forum. There is anger on both sides, one is disguised with spiritual jargen but on this side it is not coated, it is blunt.
It has been a good learning experience. I am happy for Suzanne who came to learn and understand and also express her grievances with Shantari on the other group. BUT NOW this has to end. It is turning into a borefesst of hateful words that is not bringing about anything.
IT IS GREATLY OBVIOUS THAT THE PEOPLE ON THE MYSTIC LOVER SITE ARE JUST SUCH HYPROCRITS. SHANTARI IS INSULTIVE TO AVALON ABOUT HER NEEDS TO EXPRESS HER GRIEVANCES BUT IN THE END SHE TELLS AVALON TO GO TO JAYEM for all her hurts because she does not have the answer. PLUS SHE ALSO HAS ALOT OF PERSONAL ISSUES...QUESTIONING GOD BECAUSE OF PERSONAL MATTER,(guru in traning? with such hate and anger...it does not make Jayem look any better) GETTING GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE,WHILE SHE BELIVES THAT AVALON HAS A POVERTY CONSCIOUSNESS? OOOOOOOOO.... HAVING SOCIAL PROBLEMS WITH THE GROUP THAT SHE IS TEACHING....OOOOO, THIS IS ALL TO MUCH NONSENSE, TOO DIRTY. TOOO COMICAL.
Plus NOW YOU Raven are now taking this one woman show which is not ending. Like justice_101 I have changed. My personal lesson is to learn that no one is perfect. It is important to question and observe people to understand who they are.
SO THE REAL QUESTION IS, WHAT ARE YOU LEARNING? Seeing that you cannot change the minds of the people on Jayem's site, not that this was ever my goal. My goal was to get answers from the man, How stupid of me!
SO RAVEN WHAT IS YOUR GOAL AND WHAT DO YOU INTEND TO LEARN OR GAIN FROM PUSHING IN THIS WAY?
Even if they say that they are different or better those people are repressing much anger and hurt. They smoother on cool turms with a large butter knife but they are no more clear. Thanks for exposing your way, all of you Veridane, Shantari, LightHammer, Marily, Avalon, Justice, Andrew. The lesson was an eye opening one. It was good to have this in the open. I especially am happy for suzann part because it further showed why those people like Shantari would defend Jayem as she did. He and his work is her meal ticket. another lesson about being patient to know what people's objectives really are. Thank you Shantari for showing who you really are.
Bye Bye |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 130.194.13.104
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
|
Kip,
not a one person show...just a byproduct of a lot of personal messages which are extremely upsetting.... EXTREMELY UPSETTING and INTERESTING...so i answered them in total on the 'public general discussion board' as apposed to everyone personal. Hey, they are affected by your comments here too...this is NOT a one person show...except they are desperately looking for answers...
So, If it looks like pushing then it looks like pushing.... Its the opposite! Im not "pushing" I feel for these people who have been left in limbo, with a lot of hurt and pain, you see the penny is dropping for some - to change one persons mind was NOT my intent, nor my desire...obviously the people are more significant than the creator..good for them, power to them.
so I use your words, and leave it be:
"This is what this this is all about in the end. People only care if they are having first hand attack with a problem, otherwise they tell you to shut up and become love and just be forgiving. That is not fair, because it is a process"
I didnt realise that it was Us against Them....I just thought it was an element of 'truth'....
What did I learn?
People are 'affected' by the truth... |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.233.83
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 9:20 pm: |
|
Well by one woman I mean that no one else is posting. Well not me or Justice or Andrew or Dajan. I had hoped that she would have said more. Don't get me wrong, I love, love that this has been brought to the open. I love that you express your truth. It has shed sooo much light for me and soo much to ponder on that I have to let it go and take time to digest how fowl people can really be while pointing fingers at you with the intent to make you feel lesser than themselves.
my intended word was persuing not pushing. |
spiritman11 (spiritman11)
New member
Username: spiritman11
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 203.206.9.145
| | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 6:46 am: |
|
Quoted from Raven post;
"wow....this message board is truly a blessing.
Lets all face it, the only reason why we are posting on this, is because we care for others....
the only reason why we keep reading this, is because we care for ourselves...
the only reason why we care about the 'MYSTIC' lover....is because we were, know someone or want to help a family member who is a part of this.... In all of this.... we are binded.
THIS IS ABOUT LOVE...
THE UNCONDITONAL KIND, WHICH IS SHARED AMOUNGST STRANGERS...WHO DO NOT EXPECT A THANKYOU OR FORM OF PAYMENT.... THERE IS NO EGO HERE.... "
Hmmmmmmm! you might need to explain "unconditional love" to me in the light of the comments made here.
i am by no means a "follower" of Jon Marc Hammer.
A few "wisdoms" spring to mind reading this discussion.
"judge not and neither condemn for what you judge you will one day become and what you condemn will one day condemn you"
"there but for the grace of God go I" (which means to me there is an element of that which we are judging in all of us)
"the fastest journey to who we really are is through a journey of who we are not".
i wonder what occupations the main three of you that have so vehemently posting here follow in paying your living expenses.
i am aware of a 58 year old with a mid 30's wife, just had a baby together (their third i believe) and he is in the insurance industry. So i guess because he is selling institutionalized fear and profiting significantly from that it is all OK. But to make a living out of presenting spirituality is not OK according to what i perceive is being said here. What about the most powerful financial industry in the world, the churches, selling redemption from the possibly totally illusionary concept of sin and selling tickets to a heaven that resides as a birthright in everyone of us. And what of the many pedaphile scandels arising from those institutions are you girlz/guyz on to that as well? |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.160
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 6:21 am: |
|
Hello, everyone, I realise this thread may have gone cold, but I read it with great interest. I have met JM Hammer, briefly, and so have sat in his energy. I am also a student of metaphysics, and so have an understanding of the field. One thing I have noticed, is that how so many of you have gone off track with the original theme - the issue at hand here is, who is this man, and what authority does he have.
He admits he has committed incest - he admits he spent three years in jail -
Clearly he has many followers, but perhaps serious students of metaphysics might do some research on JM hammer (other than his sexploits with three year olds) You will discover, that the so called "channeled" messages from jesus are an exact copy of A Course in Miracles, You may also discover that the "chaneled" Aramaic Lord's Prayer was plagerised from Neil Douglas Klotz, you may also recognise that "loves Breathe" is simply Yogic breathing that can be learned in any yoga class.
My friend went with everyone to Israel, and paid a lofty $A7000 for ten miserable days -- do the math!! Its not rocket science.
No there is nothing wrong with making a living from spiritual teachings - I do it myself - however, those spiritual teachings do need to be authentic and original, not simple plagerism.
JM claims he has healed his sexual problems, however, notice that this bald, middle aged man constantly has various blond girlfriends, at leas thirty years his junior - this are not long term committed relationships, but simply the "girl-de-jour"
Wake up guys - If a man wants sex with a three year old, not only is he ill, we have to question his genital equipment. If a man cannot have long-term committed relationships with three-dimensional women, he chooses girls.
Apart from anything else, look at the evidence, this man is not healed, he is just pretending to be healed, and in the meantime enticing young lovlies into his bed - how else does a bald middle aged man with ho hum looks get pretty 20somethings into his bed? become a guru -- wake up everyone, smell the coffee and let your own heart be your guru.
love and kisses, |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.160
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 6:23 am: |
|
Hello, everyone, I realise this thread may have gone cold, but I read it with great interest. I have met JM Hammer, briefly, and so have sat in his energy. I am also a student of metaphysics, and so have an understanding of the field. One thing I have noticed, is that how so many of you have gone off track with the original theme - the issue at hand here is, who is this man, and what authority does he have?
He admits he has committed incest - he admits he spent three years in jail -
Clearly he has many followers, but perhaps serious students of metaphysics might do some research on JM hammer (other than his sexploits with three year olds) You will discover, that the so called "channeled" messages from jesus are an exact copy of A Course in Miracles, You may also discover that the "chaneled" Aramaic Lord's Prayer was plagerised from Neil Douglas Klotz, you may also recognise that "loves Breathe" is simply Yogic breathing that can be learned in any yoga class.
My friend went with everyone to Israel, and paid a lofty $A7000 for ten miserable days -- do the math!! Its not rocket science.
No there is nothing wrong with making a living from spiritual teachings - I do it myself - however, those spiritual teachings do need to be authentic and original, not simple plagerism.
JM claims he has healed his sexual problems, however, notice that this bald, middle aged man constantly has various blond girlfriends, at leas thirty years his junior - this are not long term committed relationships, but simply the "girl-de-jour"
Wake up guys - If a man wants sex with a three year old, not only is he ill, we have to question his genital equipment. If a man cannot have long-term committed relationships with three-dimensional women, he chooses girls.
Apart from anything else, look at the evidence, this man is not healed, he is just pretending to be healed, and in the meantime enticing young lovlies into his bed - how else does a bald middle aged man with ho hum looks get pretty 20somethings into his bed? become a guru -- wake up everyone, smell the coffee and let your own heart be your guru.
love and kisses, |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 62.253.64.24
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 2:59 pm: |
|
Hello Magdelaine
How nice to hear such plain talking. Working through the smokscreen of some new age thinking is often hard. Some people have a pathalogical need to empathise with almost everything. You seem to do a marvelous job of cutting to the chase.
Regards
Andrew |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.209.225.221
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
|
For me, A course in Miracles and the Jeshua teachings are not great because of their source, they are great because of their alliegance with Love and "truth", as expressed in the content of the teachings themselves.
For me, ACIM and the "Jeshua teachings", given "through" Jon Marc Hammer, are
1) As brilliant, loving and comprehensive a theology/philosophy/teaching set as I have ever seen(and I have seen many on a twenty plus year search for truth)
2) that which healed much of my own spiritual path, in one way instantly, after many years of dedicated searching for healing
3) teachings which have shown up for me personally in ways in this world(especially through timing) that cannot be explained away as coincidence or some manipulation by another. The physical world seems to obey them, not the other way around! This still freaks me out a bit!
4)To the best of my ability to perceive, truly the words of Jesus Christ. For me personally, as a "Christian", believing this is of a magnitude of importance that cannot be overstated.
I see the posts, the questions and conclusions. If I had to take it all into account, all the unlikelyhood of it being real, all the possible deception, all the arguements for manipulation etc.,(which I do not automatically dismiss by any means) and balance these with my personal experince of the teachings, and had to bet my life (and I AM doing this to some extent) on whether or not it was truly the word of Jesus, crazy as it sounds, I would bet that IT IS. I have questioned this deeply again in response to the postings here, and come away stronger in my convictions-thank you!
Also, in the name of our common desire for truth, I think much of the info here about Jon Marc would be shown to be incorrect on further review. As a simple example, the Jeshua teachings do not copy ACIM-I base this on having have been an ACIM student and teacher for over 15 years, and a student of the Jeshua teachings for over 10. They are consistent with each other, but quite unique.
Blessings to you all,
Dave Schock |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.209.225.221
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
|
One more thought! My dedication is not to these teachings, it is to the truth. I sense this in the factnet group as well-a passion to understand, a dedication to truth, and to helping others who are being decieved. Thank you-if I am being decieved, please tell me how!!Specifically, based on the teachings themselves.
Also, I have deeply questioned my ideas about these teachings based on what is on these postings. Simply in the name of truth, no BS, I invite you to do the same. Are you willing to consider the possibillity that the teachings are genuinely from Jesus Christ? If not, why not? What is it about the teachings themselves that offends your sense of truth??
This is just an invitation and an inquiry. I believe in the teachings, but I seek to sell nothing. We each have our own path, to be respected, in my opinion.
Blessings,
Dave Schock
ps-for anyone interested, there is a free referral site I have set up for ACIM and Jeshua teaching links, it is www.Jeshua.biz |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.123.206
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:58 pm: |
|
dave, the truth is you are being decieved! |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.7.101
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:03 am: |
|
Hi Dave,
Glad to hear your dedication is to the truth, so then you would understand that JM's materials are a total ripoff of ACIM, in some cases, word for word. All I am doing is pointing out this truth. Yes, I agree truth is important, but let us be honest with its origins.
ACIM will set you back about $50 - JM's materials costs hundreds more - and it is the same truth --!!! (hello)
JM constantly urges people to stay in process by doing his workshops, seminars, going to Israel etc.,
ACIM simply asks you to retrain your mind from a thought system of fear to one of love --
JM has very cleverly copied a profound spiritual work, passed it off as his own, added lots of flowery sentiments, and the gulible fall for it.
All I am suggesting is that people are honest with one another,
love m |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.7.101
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:10 am: |
|
I nearly forgot, but while I am on the subject, JMs also took the Aramaic L.Prayer from Neil Douglas-Klotz, made a CD of it almost exactly the same - his breathe exercises are simply yogic breathing, can be learned at any yoga school -- there is nothing original in anything that JM has to offer. However it is a salient lesson on how even profound truths can be highjacked and manipulated by unscrupulous con-artists - it has been done before, and it was done with the Gospels. The truth that Yeshua brought all those years ago was highjacked by the Church, and JM is trying to do the same with his flowery prose -- to join is to separate -- recognise we are all one, and we do not need little cliques with gurus spouting their own "alleged" channeled messages,
love you bro, m |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.209.225.221
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:05 am: |
|
(post part one of two)
Thanks for your thoughts.
I my experience, the Jeshua material is quite different from ACIM. As I say, I have been a student of ACIM for almost twenty years now, reading it several hours a day in for the first several years. I have also completed the 365 day workbook of the course.
I have also been a student of the Jeshua teachings for nearly ten. I was at first deeply resistant to this work, seeing it as someone who was trying to make a buck by ripping off ACIM. I soon found this claim to be unfounded. The Jeshua materials has a very different "flavor" than ACIM, and substantially varied content, yet equally deep and consistent.
When I first encountered this material I studied the Jeshua teachings, saw JM "channel" in person, and, accepting it as possibly authentic, also chose to have several personal readings with Jeshua through Jon Marc. These became some of the most significant spiritual experiences of my life. They have included timing, predictions and other information about my life that could not have been accessed by Jon Marc alone.
The first reading I had healed a massive old spiritual trauma which had been my central spiritual issue for 16 years at that point. It had been the central motivaton for my spiritual path, and I had found almost nothing that had helped with it, during a search which included many, many forms(philosophy, traditional religions, you name it). These cost less than a traditional hour of what I hear therapy costs(when he charged-there were times he did not)and would go as long as 3 hours, my questions being patiently answered in consistently brilliant terms. He isn't getting rich from me!!
(end part one)
(Message edited by dave schock on February 16, 2006)
(Message edited by dave schock on February 16, 2006) |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.209.225.221
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:21 am: |
|
(part two of two)
Of course it is possible I am being deceived, but what standards are reasonable to discern this with? For me they are intellectual consistentcy, alignment with Love as the main value, and "the fruits" of the work. I have seen much reason to believe in these teachings based on all three.
I know the main players involved in the Jeshua material fairly well, but did not know them before hand. During this time I have witnessed an extraordinary quiet willingness to sacrifice personal financial security on the part of Jon Marc, as well as others, in service to this work. To say financial motivation has been a primary goal in all this is to show a lack of simple understandings of the facts and people involved, in my opinion.
There is also a tendency by JM to deflect, back to the teachings, and ultimately to themselves, the "worship" of many students in their desire to see him as their guru. If he wanted to set himself up as a guru, he has had his chance, and freely given it away, it seems to me. I am personally not attracted to any "guru" approach, and would not stay in contact with these teachings if they had a guru smell to them. They don't to me, at least!
Also, the Jeshua material has many components which ACIM doesn't even touch on-the Way of the Heart teachings on Desire, for example, or the nature by which egoic lineage's are healed. There are many others.
Many, many people would strongly disagree with the statement the Jeshua teachings are a copy of ACIM-as, I expect, would nearly anyone who read or studied them. Rev. Kay Hunter of Texas wrote a beautiful piece recently on the progresson of the depth of teachings on similar subjects as they run through the New Testament, ACIM, and finally the Jeshua teachings. This is how I see them as well.
As for being deceived in my pursuit of truth, I have found that I require a bit more proof than someone simply saying that "You are being fooled" for me to change my mind. Where are the facts!!
Thank you for your message of love, the most important part of this (or any!)post, to me!!
Love and blessings to you,
Dave Schock |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.193
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
|
Hi Dave, I am curious, do you actually read my posts? Does it not disturb you that JMs track record is hardly impressive? Have you nothing to say re my point that NOTHING this man offers is original, and for the most part, is clearly lifted from other works/people. That alone should ring a loud bell in your mind.
This site is dedicated to exposing cults - indeed cults come in many shades of gray, perhaps JM is one of the lighter shades - but it is clearly a cult, a cult of personality. It is because of my love of you, and any person being mislead, that I find the time to contribute.
The way you discern if you are being deceived is simple - does this (info etc) set me free. It is clear that you have been recruited by a very slick con-artist, because my beloved, you are not free. When we are free we have a clear and direct line to the sacred, we do not "need to do anything" - your need to convince me, your need to create websites indicates you do not sit gently with the truth.
No Doubt JM may be a good psychic, but that is not the same as spiritual. The psychic realm is the realm of desire and anyone can tap into it at will -- and use it to manipulate. No doubt he told you that you are reincarnated disciple of Jesus (and of course JM is too!) no doubt you have a "special role" to fulfill. Honey, you are not special, but you are loved,
love m |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.193
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:38 pm: |
|
I nearly logged off, but felt drawn to re-read your post -- perhaps I am not making myself clear - then I realised that perhaps you believe that cults are the obvious Jim Jones/poisoned Cool Aid scenarios -- Cults come in all shapes and sizes, and because the unscrupulous are learning how to manipulate through psychic means, they are becoming harder to spot, more slick etc., There is a longing in the hearts of many, to find a family, a place of rest, a place of belonging. Those of us who know, realise this longing is for the divine, however until you know, you seek it in this world, looking for the right partner, or the right "spiritual" family. It is this urge that con-artists like JM manipulate. They become the soft-spoken "all-seeing" master, a substitute for the divine. He appears to offer healing, absolution, spiritual awakening, and so draws many lonely and sad people into his web. However, because it is ego-orientated - based on "seek and do not find" he ensures that you never become "enlightened" etc., by ensuring you always remain "in process" and he remains "the master" You are not physically constrained, but intellectually, psychically and spiritually crippled by these actions -- very cruel.
Ps I have read JM's materials, they are flowery interpretations of ACIM - in some cases, word for word -- yes, some people may not agree with me, but these are facts -
Dave, I really hope you wake up and see you are being manipulated and used -- find your own inner voice, don't be a puppet of this man - and don't allow him to highjack the wisdom and turn it into a personality cult!!!
luv M |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.209.225.221
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 8:26 am: |
|
Yikes!!!
My posts, are, I suppose, done in the desire to present one person's opinion that the Way of Mastery teachings are not a cult(unless put under the broadest of umbrellas for definition, say, including all organized spiritual teaching), and therefore has little place on this site(but it is here!). Now, I could be a mindless cult zombie, so don't listen no matter what I say!! or we might consider looking at the info itself.
Based on the teachings themselves, I submit again that ACIM and The Way of teachings are very different, as hundreds of students of both would easily attest to.
The Jeshua teachings include discussion on many topics not covered at all in ACIM-some (more) examples.
1) the body as impacted by our thoughts(judgement, for example), by fasting, by breath, by spiritual change(how the body responds to released negative ideas, for example)
2) the progression of desire/intention/allowance and surrender as spiritual process
3) the nature of family egoic lineage and how it is healed
4) the emphasis on self love and healing as essential for discernment of world situations
there are many more!
The Jeshua teachings(as a good sequel would)also builds on the teachings of ACIM, going deeper into understandings of the issues of the origin of separation, forgiveness, judgement, healing and responsibility for one's own "stuff".
Past a cetain point, however, this discussion is silly-you say it is the same, I say it isn't. I have read your posts! To me, you are saying the sky is green, and I am I giving lots of examples of how it isn't.
It is obvious to me, but I do not ask anyone to take my word on it! I suggest anyone interested in this subject read both and see for themselves.
The question of being deceived is no small one to consider-and I thank you all for your concern. I am open to changing based on the facts, not on heresay and quick opinions about things which, it seems to me, the authors have very little actual information-
blessings,
Dave |
crystal (crystal)
New member
Username: crystal
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 202.63.54.134
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 1:37 pm: |
|
Part One
Hello everyone,
This debate about ACIM versus The Way of Mastery teachings in relationship to cult status seems to centre on Jon Marc but not on Helen Schucman. I could very well say that based on prior reasoning as applied to Jon Marc, then ACIM is a cult too because Helen Schucman was not the 'best' example of a spiritual leader. Similarly, Jon Marc may not be the ‘best’ example of a spiritual leader. Both were channels. Both claim that the source of their writings was Jeshua Ben Joseph. The Way of Mastery supports ACIM which is to be expected if the source was the same. In fact, if you want to come at this from a marketing perspective, then the sales and popularity from Tom Carpenter’s and Brent Haskell’s books (which have also spawned study groups in their own right) are guaranteed by mentioning their affiliation with ACIM given its success in reaching the masses. But for most of us, we read and we decide for ourselves with little regard for marketing strategies or for that matter who the earthly author was. You can read ACIM without knowing much about Helen. You can read ‘Journey Beyond Words’ without knowing much about Brent Haskell and you can read The Way of the Heart without knowing much about Jon Marc. You can read almost any writing without knowing much about the author. It is also common for study groups to form despite not knowing much about the author, so what has Jon Marc got to do with the formation of study groups around the world that focus on The Way of Mastery series? It is just happening despite him! Maybe, with limited vision, you only see his personal website, but that is like looking at any other author’s website that promotes their ideas. What is the big deal? What is the difference? And how does any of it make it into a cult? There have been debates over publication rights with ACIM and there are similar debates over The Way of the Heart, The Way of Transformation and The Way of Knowing. Yet, none of this has much of an effect on the reader seeking Truth within the text itself. |
crystal (crystal)
New member
Username: crystal
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 202.63.54.134
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 1:39 pm: |
|
Part Two
People who attach themselves to a leader are flying in opposition to the content of all of these writings since none of them encourage guru worship. In fact they all discourage valuing anything of this world. If indeed a cult is perceived by any of you, then you must be living in fear even if it is on behalf of some ‘loved one’. All these teachings abolish fear as an ego creation and ask us to see what is Really occuring. Therefore, the concept of a cult is not even possible in the Kingdom according to the very teaching that you wish to warn people against. The more you focus your attention upon that which is not Real, the more you will be embedding yourself in the illusion. The fact is that there are no cults…There are only people looking for love or being the extension of love. Said in a different way….there are only people looking for truth or being the truth of who they are. Either way, they cannot be condemned. Their birthright is held in trust until it is accepted. And all things will lead to that acceptance (even this petty debate). It is impossible for anything said here to change the Truth because it is always and forever True. Either look for it or live it…there is nothing else.
Namaste, |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 209.6.214.47
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 2:48 pm: |
|
Hear, hear!! |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.107
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:20 pm: |
|
Hi guys,
so glad to see those who were standing back are now participating.
First of all, Dave, m'dear you express shock about the subject of a "cult" - if you bothered to scroll up to the top, you would see this website was create to research facts (factnet) and the subtitle is "religous cults and sects" -- that is the subject matter of this site. I am not here to debate ACIM or another materials, I raised them only because Jon Marc Hammer claimed his materials are unique channeled messages from Jesus, and I pointed out, several times already, that Mr Hammer offers nothing unique, just a rejurgitation of old information, the validity of ACIM, Kabalah, Unity Church Principles or even their authenticity are not the primary discussion.
Like so many of Jon Marc's mindless followers you fail to see the point, and then you obscure it all in denial. Denial is not spiritual - it is called repression -- I have had several discussions with Jon Marc cult members over the years and in all cases they are filled with attack and venom. It would seem to me, and many others, that his materials only teach surpression and judgement. However, I recognise I have not met everyone, just a heck of a lot of em.
It seems my crime is that I am simply stating facts, and rather than address them, you attack me for having the audacity to question your guru/teacher.
You use that old familiar pseudo-spiritual mumbo jumbo, of "if you are seeing it, it must be your own inner darkness" yada yada yada
David, for the second time I ask you actually read what I and many others have posted. The people you so easily dismiss as filled with darkness, or whatever, raise valid concerns. They are my brothers and sisters, and they are part of you too. The coldness, the intellectual and flip way you deal with these concerns only confirms what I have already stated regarding JM followers - Have the courage to answer the facts with facts not just opinion. I am open to having my opinion revised with fact, not just your emotive obsfucation,
always love, m |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.107
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:23 pm: |
|
Hi guys,
so glad to see those who were standing back are now participating.
First of all, Dave, m'dear you express shock about the subject of a "cult" - if you bothered to scroll up to the top, you would see this website was create to research facts (factnet) and the subtitle is "religous cults and sects" -- that is the subject matter of this site. I am not here to debate ACIM or another materials, I raised them only because Jon Marc Hammer claimed his materials are unique channeled messages from Jesus, and I pointed out, several times already, that Mr Hammer offers nothing unique, just a rejurgitation of old information, the validity of ACIM, Kabalah, Unity Church Principles or even their authenticity are not the primary discussion.
Like so many of Jon Marc's mindless followers you fail to see the point, and then you obscure it all in denial. Denial is not spiritual - it is called repression -- I have had several discussions with Jon Marc cult members over the years and in all cases they are filled with attack and venom. It would seem to me, and many others, that his materials only teach surpression and judgement. However, I recognise I have not met everyone, just a heck of a lot.
It seems my crime is that I am simply stating facts, and rather than address them, you attack me for having th audacity to question at the actions of this man.
You use that old familiar pseudo-spiritual mumbo jumbo, of "if you are seeing it, it must be your own inner darkness" yada yada yada
David, for the second time I ask you actually read what I and many others have posted, and rather than to attack, simply answer the facts with facts not just opinion. I am open to having my opinion revised with fact, not just your emotive obsfucation,
always love, m |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.107
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:44 pm: |
|
sorry people, but for some reasons my posts get sent in twice - perhaps someone out there is not listening to me!!??
Crystal, I hope you take the time to thoroughly read the posts above, (not just mine, but other concerned people) rather than the final few segments. I agree there is a groundswell of desire to embrace metaphysical truths and that in that process there will be some mistakes made, such is life!
However, that is not the issue:
so let me reiterate the issues/facts:
Jon Marc Hammer is a convicted paedophile *
He committed incest and presumably adultery with his stepdaughter for several years*
He served a prison sentence for this crime*
this he admits *
He claims to channel his materials yet nothing he has offered is remotely unique but rather plagerised from many sources - noteably ACIM but also others *
His teachings are based on ensuring his students "stay in process" and never actually step into spiritual awakening. And of course, to line his pockets.
The issue you are all missing is that the character of this man indicates duplicity. Ask yourselves why his books have not been published by mainstream publishing houses? why he conducts his workshops in obscure locations? why he flits in and out of various counties, never staying very long. Ask yourself why he was refused an Australian visa recently??? Ask yourself why the Indonesian government are currently investigating him?
But wait, there's more.
Jon Marc Hammer claims to be an incarnation of St John the Divine, one of the original twelve diciples of Jesus!!!!
These are not minor peccidillos, but the sign of a very mentally ill man, who clearly needs support and help. If you are his friend Dave, and you still feel you are a brother from a past incarnation, perhaps you might look at ways of helping him. However I understand, from former members of the sect, that you also claim to be a reincarnation of St James, St John's brother, so perhaps you have a vested interest in Jon Marc and his business.
Crystal, the truth sets us free, but what we are seeing his is clear recruitment by a very unwell brother,
love as ever, m |
crystal (crystal)
New member
Username: crystal
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 202.63.54.134
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 1:16 am: |
|
Hello Magdelaine,
I have read the Way of the Heart and the other writings of Jon Marc and I participate in the website but I have never met Jon Marc. Similarly many others on the forums have not. Some just want to talk to like-minded people. Others study an online course and some go to the retreats or pilgrimages. Some must know him personally I suppose. I still cannot see how any of that can make a cult.
There are heaps of people going to WOTH study groups around here. Does that mean those people are less likely to learn spiritual truths from that work because it was written by a man who used to be a criminal? You say that it is a rehash of ACIM work which must mean its content is at least up to its standard.
I also cannot see how the formation of study groups, most frequently autonomous and unbeknown to Jon Marc himself, can make those people cult members. Most of the ones I know used to attend ACIM study groups in the past but found the Hammer material easier to understand. Who then are the cult members...just the ones who go on pilgrimage? Or is it everyone that buys or borrows and reads the books or the ones who visit the forums?
I, for one, have never been recruited. I was reading a journal magazine which had articles in it about the Way of the Heart principles and I became interested. I don't feel the need to go to Israel but I am studying the online course. I did it because I wanted to.
Anyway, if there is truth in that writing, then that is all that matters. If it is expressed in a way that suits some people's understanding more than others then that is OK by me too.
I don't know any of my new friends online, or the ones that I have since met locally, that were recruited...truly. I am not in a cult just because I try to put into practice what I think is helping me to find my right Mind.
I hope that clears things up a bit.
Namaste |
veri (veri)
New member
Username: veri
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 220.239.172.163
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 5:29 am: |
|
When I read some of the posts here it is clear to me they are misinformed.
There is a need to paint or see J.M. as some sort of villain of a B movie.
And the talk about the teachings is even more misinformed. There was a post saying that the teachings cause people to never be a finder so that JM carries on profiting. That’s not my experience - period. It’s quite the opposite actually. Today I feel I found that precious connection which takes me to God. Jayem has given so much of his time to me without charging at all. I know some other people that have the exact same experience of him and the teachings.
The workshops I attended there were never a flavor of Guru. As a matter of fact, I remember him thanking the participants in the end of a workshop because he felt he had learned so much from us. I find the prices of the workshops are very reasonable and whoever is experiencing some financial difficulties talks to him and he always helps out.
If in the factnet forum people are supposed to just discuss facts, perhaps it would be worth doing some homework before logging in. I can see there are some genuine and sincere posts here where people are just expressing their concern and that’s most valid but the most fearful ones speak out their projections unaware of it.
You know, maybe before logging in - just take a deep breath and check inside yourself (not everybody in this forum, of course, just a few) why there is so much need to attack and condemn and point to the monster outside of one’s self. |
veri (veri)
New member
Username: veri
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 220.239.172.163
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 5:30 am: |
|
Part 2:
It is been such a long time since I logged into this factnet forum. I still remember last year some people who are not participating in the studies , logging into the Mystic Lover Forum and just going wild with attacks on the teachings, JM, the students.
Last night I felt the curiosity to see if there were some more posts about Jayem and what I read just felt so misconstrued.
A Course in Miracles, Glenda Green, Jayem studies will sound, taste and feel the same because they come from the same Source.
If they were totally different from each other then one could go “wait a minute, there are some contradictions here! Surely there is some thing dodgy about it!” But that’s not the case.
I must confess that I went into reactivity when I read some of the posts here. My beautiful husband reminded me that I had the most amazing day, really amazing. I had a cosmic spiritual experience that I will never forget. When he reminded me of that I just took a deep breath, had some self honesty about my reactions and deeply desired to just come from a place of love. I rewrote my post again.
I find Self-honesty one of the hardest things one can engage into but when there is no self-judgment it can be most liberating. |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 209.6.214.47
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 6:58 am: |
|
In the name of Jesus Christ, I ask that no deception be present in my mind regarding any of the teachings of ACIM or the writings, tapes of Jon Marc Hammer while claiming to being chanelled by Jeshua.
This is the prayer which I re-started my relationship with these works with, a while ago, and repeat here again. Since this time, my relationship with the teachings given by Jon Marc Hammer has become deeper, richer, and more aligned. My relationship includes an understanding of the past actions of the main messenger. Let God judge, if He would, I have no place doing so.
Jesus Christ(not necessarily "Jeshua", unless led to this by my commitment to Christ) is the authority I recognize, and pledge my allegiance to, along with my own connection with God.
It is only from this place that any of the previous postings have come, and I surrender to it again.
Blessings in Christ
(Message edited by dave schock on February 18, 2006) |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 203.134.46.68
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 4:11 am: |
|
Hi Everyone, I read these posts, and I thought, I must take a break, walk in the sunshine, because I found I felt sad, not for me, but for you all.
First of all I want to make it clear that I too have a strong, glorious and all encompassing relationship with our creator, please don't assume that I am ever coming from anything other than love or that I don't think things through, I do, nothing that is said is done for anything other than the desire to see you all awaken into your spiritual selfhood, and if you open your hearts you will know that.
But, as I again re-read these posts, it becomes clearly obvious that all the concerns I have raised are vindicated.
Again, I urge you to truly read these posts, without prejudice and with an open mind.
These are not just viscious or angry people, they are your brothers and sisters, do them the curtesy of listening.
Crystal: You say you join the club to contact "like minded" individuals. Is not everyone your brother then? The need to be with "like minded and spiritual people" is part of the cult mentality. I am sure you do not realise it. Please recognise that knowing the materials is not the same as living it.
Veri: Strange you feel many of the posters are not being honest, because I feel this is one of the most honest threads I have ever seen. Perhaps that is showing you something about you.
And Dave, sweetheart, were you channelling something? When ever I have met WOH people they have always told me that Jeshua is just your special name for Jesus, now you indicate he is something or someone other, how confusing. Perhaps some of you other WOH people could tell me exactly who "Jeshua" is then, because I must have misunderstood.
A little advice, and believe me it does come from love, please don't allow your attachment to this man to be your only link to God, I beg of you. For there is more to come, I can assure you,
love m |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 203.134.46.68
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 4:37 am: |
|
Okay, now back to the issues: This website is here to support people and their families caught up in cults. This is why JM Hammer has come to its attention.
As with all cults, its organiser/guru invariably has a seedy past - JM Hammer is not just a former criminal, he is a sex pervert, a child molester, and committed incest with a small child for around four years -- this is a fact
He went to prison,
He has confessed the truth of these statements on this very website.
He claims he is healed, yet appears unable to have long-term relationships with mature women, instead flits to young-thing, all of whom are interestly exactly the same age as the stepdaughter- and all are blonde.
He claims to have had a direct epiphany with God in Vietnam.
At one time he claimed to be the reincarnated centurian who hammered the nails into Jesus' hands and then "felt the love".
Now he claims to be the reincarnation of St John the Divine. And clearly he has persuaded one of his followers that he too is an incarnation of one of the twelve diciples.
All his teaching materials are based on other peoples' works -- all - not just some.
I would really like some of you JM followers to actually address these issues. I would like you to actually state why you mindlessly follow a man who would force himself on an eight year old. If, as you say, the truth is what you seek, and this truth is also in other works, such as Glenda Green, ACIM and others, then why this man? Your support of him only reinforces within him, and within the consciousness of the planet, that it is okay to commit incest, that is okay for a middle aged man to enter the bed of a child and penetrate her innocent body - think of the horror that child went through - Do you imagine she has ever gotten over it?
Call upon God all you like, David Schock, but what options did that little girl have when JM was spreading her legs and pleasuring himself.
You pat yourselves on the back that you are oh so spiritual, but where is the love, the compassion, for the innocent child, who must have cried herself to sleep, praying for help.
You are still raping her, she is in every little blond girlfriend and in every woman you hoodwink, JM, and we who remember, remember you,
much love, lots of kissies,
M |
veri (veri)
New member
Username: veri
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 220.239.172.163
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 2:37 pm: |
|
Wow, Magdelaine!
You are a woman on a mission!
There are many points in your last 2 posts that are inaccurate but to be honest with you I don’t have the time or desire to go through that.
There is no need to feel sad for me, David or Crystal. Save it for those ones who are enwrapped in pain and projections and self-made drama.
I told my husband (who is a spiritual teacher) about what is going on in this very forum. So, here is what he says:
“Whenever someone is on the attack it is a sure sign they are coming from a deep unresolved trauma. Dysfunctional behavior / words come from dysfunctional / traumatized people. It’s simply logic. This trauma / dysfunction is so immense in their system they simply cannot take self responsibility for it and must project out on to so called “monsters” out there. The greatest irony is that they in fact become the very thing they loathe. To the aware heart it is so obvious that these attacks come from a deep place of trauma and pain. No amount of discrediting, and hatred towards Jon Marc or anybody else who supposedly “deserves” it will heal your hurt. It will simply keep you in that familiar place of separation and pain you have become so accustomed to.
There are some beautiful therapies available today. Things like breathwork, EFT (see www.emofree.com) that really can resolve this need for hatred and attack. Why spend another day in anger when you can choose love & forgiveness? Yes, it does mean you will need to finally feel that immense trauma you have avoided for so long, but there is always genuine help if you are serious about wanting it. I wish the people on this forum love and healing, as I wish it for myself too. I too have engaged in too many fearful and negative discussion etc. in my life.
Please try your very best to not react to this post too. You will again prove the exact point this post is trying to help you heal. Take a different choice.”
All the best,
Veri |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.27.168.1
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:49 pm: |
|
Hi Veri, how kind of you to think of me, and no why should I take offence? I can feel your genuine compassion.
However, Again may I draw your attention to the facts, not the emotional drama. Could you please, find it in your heart to actually answer one of the questions I have posed, rather than to attack me.
You are projecting attack upon me, I am not attacking JM, I love him -- he is a lost brother, but look at the facts -- look at his actions -- they speak for themselves -- and I ask you to actually answer the questions rather than attacking the messenger.
Have you no compassion for a young girl who was raped? As you sit in comfort with intellectual arguments, blaming the messenger, can you not see that this continues? Or do you simply not care.
Not one of the WOH people who have written in have bothered to address any of the issues - not one - And as I have said before, loving, compassionate, red-blooded person reading your posts would clearly see they totally vindicate my position.
Love, as always, M |
veri (veri)
New member
Username: veri
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 220.239.172.163
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 12:16 am: |
|
Hi There Magdalene!!
So, let me answer your question: Have you no compassion for a young girl who was raped?
Yes and Yes and Yes and Yes.
Now, I would suggest to you, if I may, to read again JM answer in this very forum. You will find that the event happened more than 20 years ago. The girl that you keep on referring to is not only a woman but a loving mother who has forgiven the past and shares a beautiful relationship with JM and with her Creator.
You will also notice that the system has forgiven JM otherwise he would still be in jail. Please also notice that JM has forgiven himself and breathes peacefully, slowly and deeply.
Everybody has moved on with their lives after all it is being over 20 years ago.
Now, what you may also find that the only person suffering so much right now is you.
Everybody has different opinions and different beliefs. I believe people can change and heal if they really want to. I believe in second chances. I believe in forgiveness.
Never mind Jeshua being channeled through JM. I am sure you remember a passage in the Bible about Jesus saying “who does not have any sin cast the first stone”. So there you have it. He Himself was not interested in judgment for He said that “to judge is to separate”.
So I judge you not for having - what I may erroneous perceive - a kind of an obsession with JM.
But to be absolutely honest with you I find our interaction does not serve the time and energy we may put into these posts.
I am sorry Magdalene but I am a very busy at the moment. If the incident had happened yesterday I would join with you, putting my energy into doubt, confusion, feeling outrageous and all of the rest.
Please, don’t see it as aggressiveness because I feel none. It is just time management. Sometimes I wish the day had 34 hours instead of 24!
I wish you peace and breath. |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 141.157.248.194
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 12:59 am: |
|
Veri, You have changed alot. I use to really not be able to stomach your energy in the past but you have changed. There is still a hint of self righeousness but all in all a big change.
I do have one question for you Veri, can you, will you just for a moment put aside the spiritual and New Age rules and think just for one moment how the other side is seeing this?
Not all of it is pure judgement, it can be a way for people to think more deeply about how honest or not honest other people pretend to be.
How do you know that even this is not perfectly in line for a deeper healing that you have also agreed to participate in? |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.130
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 6:40 am: |
|
Hi Kip, glad to see your contribution.
Hi Veri, I always have time for my brothers and sisters, particularly those in pain, for indeed what could be more important in our lives?
However, in your zeal to attack me, and try to re-focus attention on me, you forget several salient points.
JM raped a young woman, there is no evidence that he is healed, or that the woman/child is healed - I know of several woman who were raped or mollested more than 20 yrs ago and who still feel their lives crushed and destoyed by the experience. Its a case of do you trust a convicted paedophile or do you trust facts?
Kip, points out that these things come up for healing not for adversarial battles. Have you thought that this is how we bring these things into healing? Have you thought that God has placed this in your life to be part of the solution, not part of the problem?
You remain part of the problem whilst you live in denial.
You remain part of the problem whilst you continue to attack the messenger. Have you considered, even for a brief second, that I may be the instrument of God? Can you see past your judgement?
You use spirituality and spiritual concepts to uphold your ego view, but when they don't, you drop them quickly. You infer that life is an illusion and this is the "adamic dream" ergo, time does not exist, however it does exist when it comes to the mollestation of a girl, because it was twenty yrs ago (therefore doesn't matter)
Also, aren't you at all concerned about your friend Dave? Did you read his last post? Or do these "melt downs" happen frequently amongst the cult members?
love as ever M |
sarah (sarah)
New member
Username: sarah
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.6.130
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 6:52 am: |
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Wow guyz what a great site! And Magdeleine, you are my hero! Finally a powerful woman ready to kick •••!!!
Veri, who ever you are, can you not see the love, the power the passion? You have every right not to agree, but to constantly harp on about her needing to breathe or get help, just becos she has the audacity to disagree with you, and your nambypamby husband -- did he tell you want to say? typical man pulling the strings of his puppet wife.
No wonder you follow your guru child mollester, you clearly have no heart!
Wot you also do not address is this JM character claims to be an reincarnation of one of the twelve disiples, don't you think that is a bit looney? Or do you think you are Mary Magdalane or something?
It is obvious you have sold your soul to this JM character, so I join my voice with Magdlin - answer the question - if you have the guts
Sarah |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.209.224.229
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 7:00 am: |
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Dear Kip (and all),
Thank you for your comments on the possibility of this all being a context into which greater healing can occur.
I believe we all have common interests when we each have heard each others full story, and that such a forum is one way in which this can be done.
I agree with raising many of the questions brought up here. My point, from what I have been able to discern(based on a lot of time in relationship with these issues) is that most of the assumptions posted on the site about the situation, and most of the "facts" involved, are incorrect(perhaps none more obvious than the idea of Veri not having heart!).
One claim is that ACIM and the Way of Mastery(Jeshua stuff) is the same, or that the Way of stuff is at least entirely not original. That is totally not my experience, having been around a big variety of spiritual teachings. I find it to be one of the most original set of teachings I have ever found-it is consistently surprising and original to my hearing. As for a few examples of the many specific, documented differences between it and ACIM, I have posted some of these previously here.
Another is the question of compassion for the victim of Jon Marc(though if one has a appreciation for the ACIM teachings, the concept of a "victim" is not supported there). This was my initial concern as well, when I first heard about all this. My concerns over this have been alleviated by the information I have learned-including the apparently deep and genuine healing of all involved.
I have also come to believe that a stronger statement of proof of this healing has not been posted here by others because there is lack of evidence in these regards, but simply out of a desire to respect the (previously, publically) stated wishes for future privacy regarding this issue by the woman involved. I will respect that wish as well.
I believe it has been healed, and this is a remarkable testament to the power of the work Jon Marc has been transformed by, as well as to simply the power of inviting Christ into one's life. As best I can tell, the only remnant of this event is the constant re-living and judgment of it in the projections of others. If so, let's truly end it by ending our judgment of it.
Thank you all for being here,
blessings,
Dave Schock
(Message edited by dave schock on February 20, 2006)
(Message edited by dave schock on February 20, 2006) |
sarah (sarah)
New member
Username: sarah
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.27.168.2
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 11:49 pm: |
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Hiya Dave, the reason I said Veri does not have a heart is because anyone who reads her posts would agree with me. Heart is not just making sugary sweet statements to those who already agree with you. I think Veri does not love Magdelin. She constantly dismisses her points with "you need help" statements.
I have met meny WOH people, and you are all the same, so heartless -- it is always the victim's fault because they have "manifested" it.
But my question to you David, is do you admit you believe you are St James reincarnated?
Do you admit that JM is St John, reincarnated -- answer with a yes or with a no,
and put the record straight,
Sarah |
raven (raven)
New member
Username: raven
Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 220.239.123.206
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 6:08 am: |
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Wow....
when I posted on the mystic lover web site, I was abused by some....
personally thanked by many.....
recieved some 'extremely cold extracts' via a private message, which'Jayem's partner and guru in training (evidently which was filled with ego) sent a trusting person, who wanted some help......
and I have even managed to have my post's deleted, by ONE.....
(MY POST WHICH MENTIONED THIS WEB PAGE WAS DELETED)....
THE PUPPET MASTER IN AFFECT.
The amount of people who WOKE UP...... was amazing....
ever wonder why there are always more guests than member's logged in....?
as it is obvious that their are a lot of people reading both.....
I wonder what would happen if more of us posted openly on the 'general discussion'forum of the mystic lover....would some more people see the light?
I wonder what the people who have 'woken up' think, imagine if they posted here.....
It amazes me the change of 'tone' in the "same" person on each website....
Chameleon.
all this searching for the answers....
im not sure whether some even know the question....
do you?
I kind of figured...you can't wake someone who's pretending to sleep. |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.27.167.131
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 6:56 am: |
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Hi Raven, glad you are back, felt you reading. Clearly you are one of the first to realise that this organisation is a CULT
All the posts on this site from the members testify to that -- It is also clear, and you have already experienced this. It is impossible to reason with people tangled in a cult. They have been brain-washed. They need a professional intervention, perhaps by their families, to de-programme them.
However, God is real, and all of this is going to implode very soon. Darkness never prospers, truth is always victorious.
I know for a fact that JM and his victims are being investigated, as we speak, He is unable to gain re-entry into Australia, and Indonesian authorities are looking into his police records.
Trust and know that the light always prevails, this is why I was called, and this is why you were called, much love M |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 209.6.214.47
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 1:12 pm: |
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"God is real... Darkness never prospers, truth is always victorious...Trust and know that the light always prevails"
hear, hear-thank you Magdaleine, some common ground we share.
I do not, by the way, claim to be the reincarnation of James-this is misinformation.
There ARE claims made in the Jeshua teachings that are very unusual(none more so than the claim that Jesus/Jeshua Ben Joseph is giving the message-though this is also so for ACIM and many other teachings)-that doesn't mean one needs to attach to these stories in order to believe much of the teachings.
Jeshua teaches both in ACIM and through Jon Marc that the belief in reincarnation is not necessary. People such as Edger Cayce gave thousands of health readings which brought healing(documented)-but many of his historical predictions were incorrect. One need not believe the healing was not real because the Earth's axis didn't shift in 1999, or whenever it was meant to.
It is the Jeshua teaching's alignment with love, it's presentation of the most loving story I have heard, specialness aside(I hope!)which is why I listen to them. The stories of who was who or whatever can be helpful(literally or metaphorically) or not helpful, depending on the situation. Freedom and love are the keys to me.
One more thing-from my perspective, I have been very patient with what I perceive to be a series of postings which do not really adress the teachings themselves, but seek to suggest because of the "teacher", they must inherently be wrong. This would eliminate most of the validity of history's teachers, it seems to me! I have quesioned my own stance re the Jeshua teachings by accepting the possiblity that the claim that they are manipulations and copies could be true. I did not believe this, but was willing to re-think it. I have seen absolutely NOTHING on these posts that suggests that this re-examination was necessary.
I am willing to question based on a thorough looking at the material(the Jeshua teachings), but there has been no response with SPECIFICS as to how this work is ONLY copied.
I have listened for a while now, but do not see any answers-if I am needed to be saved, you have been unconvincing!!
Where is the more loving explanation? And a honest look at the teachings themselves?
I am just about to sign off-but wish you(us) all the truth you seek
Dave schock
(Message edited by dave schock on February 21, 2006) |
andrew (andrew)
New member
Username: andrew
Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 82.3.82.49
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:35 pm: |
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Communication is a fascinating and very imprecise science. We all write things down with a relatively clear idea of what we want to put across, but almost always fall short when we only have text at our disposal.
On reading through these new posts it seems people read the words, but the emotion and emphasis is added through the filter of our own experiences and feelings, so what each person takes from the typed words is coloured to fit their world view. I.e. some statements written from a neutral point of view can be seen as attacks by others.
This is interesting to me, as people like Marc Hammer exploit this particular blind spot many of us have. They like to get an idea of what you are looking for, and then reflect back some smoky wisdom for you to interpret through your own filters, which can give you a strikingly accurate answer.
It is very hard to change people’s ideas and beliefs, so I will not try and convince anyone they are wrong. What is important is the freedom to debate. Our points of view are based on what we know, so this information about Marc Hammer is important as it might have an influence on what people think about him. If you are convinced by his answers (as Marc Hammer Rather than Jeshua) about his past then so be it, but the answers I got from him left me feeling very uncomfortable. I have not talked about this to many people in my everyday life, as it is difficult to own up to being conned.
I am very grateful to FactNet for this forum in which we discuss these issues openly. The conclusion I have come it is this... You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. That phrase was coined many moons ago, but it is as true now as it ever was.
Best wishes and clarity to all.
Andrew |
kip (kip)
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.160.221.169
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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Andrew I am curious to hear the answers that he gave to you. Can you please share them? |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.66.1
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:08 am: |
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It is so good to see people coming forward. Andrew is right, it is very hard to state what might be interpreted by others as "an attack" or admit we have been conned -- and David, if you really feel you are guided by the light, then don't you think you should give space for others to be honest, without judging them for it.
There can be enormous "tyranny" in spirituality - especially by those who don't realy understand the concepts. I hope this is a safe forum for you Andrew. You are right it is not always easy to sense if a person is hysterical in writing, this is why I have valiantly tried to stay unemotive, and choose my words very carefully, however, there will be those who judge me -- particularly Veri, who feels I need breathing classes - last time I checked I was doing okay -- Clearly a backhanded judgement -- check out the PPP pamphlet -- forgiveness in order to attach info.
I am surprised, David, that you imagined for a moment, I would take time out of my busy life if I didn't feel guided through love to participate in a forum such as this -- I have nothing personal to gain by looking at the Jon Hammer issue - I am not a rival, nor am I a disgruntled student - I too am a lover, a lover of truth.
Glad to hear some sensible comment re - reincarnation - however, what about that "Ode to JM" website, with your name and others, with the incessant thanks you. Looks very much like guru worship to me. If you say otherwise, please be more circumspect in your adoration of the bloke,
love, always, M |
magdelaine (magdelaine)
New member
Username: magdelaine
Post Number: 17
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 211.26.66.1
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:26 am: |
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David, this is addressed to you,
I am concerned about the information Raven posted, just above your last comments. She claims that she was a member of WOH and that her post, with this weblink, was deleted -- yr comments please
Assuming this was a mistake/or work of the computer imps, howz about you taking the courage to post this link yourself?
You claim you work in the light, you also claim that you only have the best interests at heart, and that you love God and Jeshua -- so howz about giving a gesture of trust to the universe - it is time for you to show us your heart.
So, how about it?
This is a choice between love and fear,
much love,
the divine ms M |
dave_schock (dave_schock)
New member
Username: dave_schock
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 209.6.214.47
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 8:05 am: |
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pt 1-of 2-
Greetings-
I know nothing of the deletion of Raven's post, but do remember it and welcoming it at the time. The more the merrier in my opinion.
As for posting writing from this site on TML myself, I have concerns about being an agent of promotion for the authours of a site which often is wildly innaccurate in interpretation of intent of others posts, from my perspective, and is often factually innaccurate as well.
As example, M writes "David, if you really feel you are guided by the light, then don't you think you should give space for others to be honest, without judging them for it." Judgment is, in my understanding, the idea someone or thing SHOULD be different from what they are. I have not said this here, about any of you, I hope, nor do I feel it. I think it is perfectly OK for you to be doing what you are doing, even if much of it is incorrect-which I believe it is. That doesn't mean that I believe you shouldn't be doing it!
This type of misinterpretation, from my perspective, as well as simple factual errors, are rampant here. So, too, I believe, is some serious intention for truth, so I will give some serious thought to posting a link to here under my name at TML. Any legitimate questioning will strengthen the truth, in my opinion.
Cont- |
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