| Author | Message | ||
     easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1143 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
"One of the most momentous developments in the twentieth-century history of Christianity must certainly be the emergence of Pentecostalism as a dynamic force around the world. In 1900 there were, at most, a bare handful of Christians who were experiencing special gifts of the Holy Spirit similar to those recorded in the New Testament. By the end of the century, (1900's), as many as 500 million (or more than a quarter of the worldwide population of affiliated Christian adherents) could be identifies as Pentecostal or charismatic. (David Barrett 1997). (The usual difference in these terms is between Pentecostals who are organized in churches with a distinct emphasis on the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit and charismatics who practice those gifts within churches that do not formally endorse this understanding of the Holy Spirit's work.) - Turning Points - Decisive Moments in the History of Christianity by Mark Noll 1997 Pg. 299 *** Since the 1906 Azusa Street Revival the Flame of Pentecost has spread to more than 600 million around the globe...The Spiritual Experience of a Lifetime Join in the celebration and be part of history! Azusa Street Centennial April 25-29, 2006 Los Angeles www.azusastreet.com *** "The Azusa Street Revival was the most globally impacting event since the birth of Christ. I'm excidedly anticipating the Azusa Street Centennial in Los Angeles. I urge you to prayerfully consider making every effort to join me there in celebration." Jack Hayford, Chairman, Centennial Ministry Team, President, International Foursquare Churches "One of the phenomena of the Azusa Street Revival was its power to draw believers from around the world. The William J. Seymour Memorial Rallies at West Los Angles Church will join in commemorating this great revival, and a cry will go forth for the Holy Spirit to "fill us again, Lord!" Charles Blake, Chairman, Los Angeles Centennial Council, Senior Pastor, West Angeles Church "Africa is coming with bells on! The Azusa Street Revival has not touched a continent deeper than it has touched Africa. That's why Africa is excited to be a part of the Azusa Street Centennial. Delegates from almost every country of our continent are expected to attend. We are coming to hear the Lord say, 'the new season has finally arrived and here are your marching orders.'" Jackson Senyonga, African Centennial Representative, Founder and Senior Pastor, Christian Life Church, Kampala, Uganda *** Acts 2:17-19A - "And it shall come to pass in the last days, say God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they will prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath..." | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 799 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.192.223.192 |
the Last Days are a reference to the tribulation of the anti-christ..... that hasn't happened yet! this is talking of the FINAL witness to the Nations infront of the Anti-Christ, who is the abomiation (abominator) of desolation (the desolator) the devil must be here for this Gift to be present! Peace c | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1121 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
Christ refer to his day and time last days. There is a difference between the great tribulation and tribulation. Easeltine. have you ever heard that the Jesus only movement started the azusa street revival. And if so what your opinion on it? (Message edited by turtle on April 19, 2006) | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1146 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Turtle, The founder of the Azusa Street Revival was William Seymour, a black gentleman who was a Trinitarian. There were people within this early group/movement that became Jesus Only. Ezekiel, Excuse me, I did not quote vs. 16, the words of Peter are: "But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel...then the rest of the above Scriptures." I will give you an old Pentecostal song... THIS IS THAT spoken by the prophet Joel, THIS IS THAT according to His Word, THIS IS THAT my heart is longing for, THIS IS THE latter rain. Erich | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 818 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.192.223.192 |
what was Joel prophecying? look at the scriptures.... what is happening..... what time frame is that vision and prophetic Word in...... This is not the time for that...that is the CLOVEN GIFT OF TONGUES as described in Acts, where ALL UNDERSTOOD....not the opposite like you people follow! Joel is speaking of the saints being delivered up to Satan for the final witness of the Gospel to the world This can only happen in the tribulation and we are not there yet! Peace c | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 819 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.192.223.192 |
it's just not unknown! | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1757 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.205.23 |
though i speak with the TONGUES OF MEN AND OF ANGELS... there is a SPIRITUAL tongue. unknown to men but that is whay the gift of interpertation is given. and yes william seymore was trinitarian. i never heard the rumor that azuza street revival was started by oneness false doctrine | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1148 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Ezekiel, Again, Acts 2:4 says, "...and began to speak with OTHER TONGUES, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." NASB You need to take the entire Scriptures in context. Also, the Gentile believers were speaking in other languages not known by them, and Peter says that the experience was the same as theirs. Erich | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 833 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.192.223.192 |
? Acts 2 referes to the same thing as occures in Joel! To spread the Gospel (Mat 24 refers to this aswell) nothing unknown about it, and I have really read the entire thought as well as the entire thought of 1 COR 14....which is well documented on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit thread I still hold to that, brother(s)! arron...please explain to me and your pentacostal brothers what happens at your church.... does the preacher speak in tongues? and does he interprate? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1149 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Arron/Turtle, I think where people get confused is that William Seymour used the terminology Apostolic, but he was certainly Trinitarian. Of all the people I have read about during this time period, I think that this man was really a man of God. Rees Howells, Intercessor, by Norman Grubb is another example of a man of God duuring this time period. He was part of the Welsh Revival. The Chapters in the book on the Intercession For Dunkirk, and The Battle of Britain are truly amazing. Erich | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1150 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Ezekiel, Unknown, to a Pentecostal is a language that is either heavenly, but probably an earthly language that the speaker is speaking in and they don't understand the language that they are speaking in. The word, "Unknown", is put there by the Translators of Scripture because they hold to the interpretation that I am expressing, namely, that they are speaking in a language that they don't understand, nor have an interpretation of it in their minds. Erich | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1768 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.205.23 |
i should not have to explain to my pentacostal brother(s) or sister(s) as they well know. yes the pastor speaks in tongues as well as others in the church. there is interpretation that follows. there is no fanaisisum involved if that is what you are thinking. i explained it to you for you are the one that needs it. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1151 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Ezekiel, Even Charles Ryrie, the dispensationalist, who believes that the Charimata gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased after the Apostolic Age, (except for an occasional exceptions), agrees that this is a possible interpretation in his book The Holy Spirit. "Against this view, (this is your view Ezekiel), stand 1 Corinthians 14:2, and 14, which seems to indicate that the Corinthian tongues were an unknown language. In any case, the gift of tongues was being abused by the Corinthians, and Paul was required to lay down certain restrictions on its use." The Holy Spirit - Charles Ryrie Charles Ryrie finishes book, The Holy Spirit, with some interesting comments about Pentecostalism: "Undoubtedly modern Pentecostalism is a reaction to the sterility that began to characterize the established churches in the modern era. It emphasizes the baptism of the Spirit as a second work of grace for enduement with power, and it promotes a return to experiencing all the gifts which were given and used in New Testament times. The orthodox doctrine concerning the person of the Spirit is assumed; (in fact that is correct-E.A.), it is the reality of the work of the Spirit in the lives of Christians that is promoted, and not always correctly." Erich | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1152 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
The church Arron goes to seems to be practicing the Gift of Tongues correctly, not everybody is all speaking in Tongues at once. Fundamentalists have this crazy idea that they will come into a Pentecostal Church and everybody will be speaking in tongues all at once, sure, there are some churches that are out of order on these things, but they are very, very few. I know that I would no problem visiting Arron's church! Another way I have heard of speaking in tongues being used is from the testimony of Nora Lamm, (China Cry). When she visited these underground Christian/Pentecostal-(understand in these other countries almost all Christians are Pentecostal/Charismatic), in Communist China the people were speaking in English and speaking chapters from Psalms and Isaiah without knowing any English at all! Another example was my mother's, Assembly of God, missionary friend to the Papago Reservation in Arizona. She goes into this church, and an Indian lady gets up and says in perfect Dutch, "The Lord says that this is not a good church for you to stay in. Leave this church." Dutch was what this missionary, her name was Naomi Sauter, was brought up with as a child, and the Indian lady didn't know a word of Dutch. It works differently, spiritual gifts do not fit in our boxes all the time. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 836 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.192.223.192 |
does the spirit world have an infulence here on earth...yes....Christ warns us to test the spirits.... ....so should we all.... does good and evil spirits exist? yes God has a good Spirit, the Holy Spirit.... and there are evil spirits already at work God has my phone number and address...if He wants a message sooo personal delivered to me, He could do this on His own I have red flags thrown up at the thought of the last example stated. ...but all things are possible with God.... ....God is the God of truth He is not the Author of Confusion | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1126 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
Thank you Easeltine for taking time to clearify my question about the azusa street revival. I had heard some mixed things. I may see if i can not find out some more info. Thank you. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1156 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Turtle, An interesting book was given to me a few years ago from one of my friends as a present. They had bought the book from Fuller Seminary, a reprint of all the Newspapers from the Azusa Street World Wide Revival from 1906-1908 written by William Seymour called, "The Apostolic Faith". It's like the size of a newspaper, and it's interesting stuff. Here is what William Seymour believed in Water Baptism: "It should be administered by a disciple who is baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST. Matt. 28:19,20" The Apostolic Faith September 1907 Wow...I even found one for Ezekiel, "There was a woman on the campground that doubted the miracle of speaking in tongues. She understood Russian and Polish, and the Lord gave her a message in her native tongue, which no one else understood. A boy arose to testify and when his turn came, and he opened his mouth, he could not speak English, but the Spirit began to speak in an unknown language. The woman heard both Russian and Polish and was thoroughly convinced. He spoke ten minutes...The boy seemed to be preaching and exhorting in great power. Part of the message was, "Jesus is coming very soon." June 1907 | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1157 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Ezekiel, You are correct to be careful, the Scripture says, "Be sober, be vigilant for our adversary the Devil goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." I think that is in Peter. I don't buy everything either. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1133 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
Thanks Easeltine I bet that is an interesting book. So trinitrians as well as the Jesus only lay claim to this revival. I know there is alot of misconceptions about pentecostals and charismatic but weeding through all of it can be a headache when you got two groups claiming history from it. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 846 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
Hello Easeltine. The example you provided for me (lol) does indeed line up with what the gift of Tongues is all about. This may not have been God's Cloven Tongue speaking but this was not confusion. The language was intelligable and not utterances of unknown sounds and unknown speach. If the spirit was tested and all was OK then groovy. If not, then it coulda been from the Dark side eh? Them familiar spirits and demons are a tricky lot! We gotta test the spirits! What say you E? Peace c | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1161 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
I agree. There are demonic tongues and counterfeit gifts. Deliverance from evil spirits does take place. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 870 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
So how do you know that your church isn't under demonic influence? Acts2 and 1Cor14 are addressing different phenomina. | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.42 |
"So how do you know that your church isn't under demonic influence?" 1# Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 2# John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. 3# Mark16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they* will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." 4# Roman 10:9-13 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."* 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."* 5# 1cor 12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. this is a good start right here  | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 881 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
Jesus is Lord and I say this without confusion, with the Spirit, in english, so I have just demonstrated the 'conformation of the Holy Spirit Baptism, because I claim Jesus as Lord. No confusion. | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.38 |
One thing that I have not as of yet read by any on this thread (that doesn't mean one has not said it here already) how do you test a tongue and interpretation? 1. it must Edify, Comfort, and exhorted the body of Christ 2. Must line up with the word of God always. 3. done in well order and discipline 4. Christ will always be the center of IT. The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself but Christ. The Holy Spirit will bring into remembrance all what Jesus has said. The Holy Spirit will lead us and Guide into all truth. There is the School of the Spirit, He will teach us too. All is done according to the Word of God. Holy Spirit will NOT lie, cheat, or cause a person to be out of Control. The Holy Spirit is, gentle , patience and prompting of Christ’s will in line with the word of God. The Holy Spirit is designated by a number of titles that set forth His deity. They include: 1. The Spirit (John 3:6-8) 2. The Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13) 3. The Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 3:16) 4. The Spirit of the Lord (Isaiah 63:14) 5. The Spirit of the Lord God (Isaiah 61:1) 6. The Spirit of the Living God (2 Corinthians 3:3) 7. The Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20) 8. The Spirit of Jesus (Acts 16:6,7) 9. The Holy Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:30) 10. The Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9) 11. The Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19) 12. The Spirit of His Son (Galatians 4:6) 13. The Spirit which is of God (1 Corinthians 2:12). | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1829 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.205.23 |
if some one speaks in a tongue and interpertation is given that does not line up with THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD then it is false. | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 127 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.43 |
that is true | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 920 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
To any Pentacostal. How does one that is listening know that it is from God? Are we speaking of the unknown prayer language or about pastors speaking in unknown languages and then giving their interpretation of those 'higher' words. 'Cause if a pastor is speaking, and uses unknown languages, and then gives his interpretation, being the ONLY one that understands the unknown language...what is to give that pastor credentials for the followers to believe him? How can one (such as myself) see any benifit in this? I do not undertand what this pastor has said, either does the rest of the congregation, but we are to blindly BELIEVE what this one man has said....and almost each time the sermon is based around 'giving' tot he ministry. Someone who does not think that the unknown language tongue is from God would find the events in a Pentacostal church deceiving and make most turn and run away as fast as possible. It looks like utter nonesense to us. I do not understand how people can claim that speaking in an unknown illegible language can 'edify or uplift' anything or anyone. It does just the opposite to those who know better. It makes your organization look foolish and silly and it reminds me of the chanting that 'other' religions would preform to their gods in the Old Test. I really am asking...how do you know? I could 'pretend' and use a false unknown language and say it meant anything that I wanted it to. And I could also base a sermon around certain scriptures and then use the false language as a means to 'fool' otherwise good folk into whatever I wanted to! This is what I see happening today. | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.37 |
Utter nonsense to you. the point is that you do not except the gift that is for the church today. for the purpose of building up because it doesn't fit your doctrine. Tongues and interpretation of tongues has been explained very well. By me and others more mature than I. 1. it must Edify, Comfort, and exhorted the body of Christ 2. Must line up with the word of God always. 3. Done in well order and discipline 4. Christ will always be the center of IT. The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself but Christ. The Holy Spirit will bring into remembrance all what Jesus has said. The Holy Spirit will lead us and Guide into all truth. There is the School of the Spirit, He will teach us too. All is done according to the Word of God. Holy Spirit will NOT lie, cheat, or cause a person to be out of Control. The Holy Spirit is, gentle, patience and prompting of Christ’s will in line with the word of God. The Holy Spirit is designated by a number of titles that set forth His deity. you do not like what Tongues is for In today’s setting. Why it doesn't appeal to you? maybe someone wrongly stated that you are not spiritual if you don't speak in tongues, that would be wrong, maybe you tried and could not do it and felt offended by other Christians what ever the reason you chose not to that is fine but don't attack because you do not agree> If you do or don't the bottom Line is that Tongues is for today and many of Christians are coming to be empowered to be a witness Today Not just when the Anti Christ is here | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 129 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.44 |
I challange you ezekiel_37 to make up a language LOl go ahead I bet you can't. if you see is people being fooled in what way??? It has already been said that it must line up with the word of God. If I speak in tongues in a church service to which I have been so impressed to do at times not me exclusivly " as to say I'm the man" what is the end result of the tongues does it up list , comfort , encourage??? if not then the Elders will tell me to shut up and sit down. It is not some out of control event!!! believe me when I say I want to be sure too. I don't take plessure in speaking in tongues just to do it NO what is the end result. God still heals today, saves today, fills with His Spirit today and uses His people in the gifts of the Spirit today. and All of that is the Full Gospel | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 925 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
Utter nonsense to you. yes the point is that you do not except the gift that is for the church today. not unknown tongues as pentacostal use it for the purpose of building up because it doesn't fit your doctrine. It doesn't build up or edify anything but ignorance in my opinion. Tongues and interpretation of tongues has been explained very well. By me and others more mature than I. yes...explained out of context. Corrrinth was a church that needed correction for the SAME things that you are practising. 1. it must Edify, Comfort, and exhorted the body of Christ How does mumbling in an unknown prayer language do this....or how does one know that it is indeed from God? ALL MUST UNDERSTAND for it to be from God... 2. Must line up with the word of God always. How do the partishioners know that it is real and not just the pastors words. They do not and must "trust" that they are. Ha! Again...ALL WILL KNOW AND UNDERSTAND FULLY, if it is indeed from God! 3. Done in well order and discipline This is speaking 'in' church and not speaking in UNKNOWN LANGUAGES or prayer language that no one understands. 4. Christ will always be the center of IT. As Christ should be the centre of ALL. But you can never prove this so called prayer language is legitimate nor that the utterances comming from your preachers are from God Himself. Cause if it were from God then ALL WILL/WOULD UNDERSTAND, and not just the preacher. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Why you believe differently is a matter of desception. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1178 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
ezekiel, I will answer one of your questions how do you know if it is from God or not. If you ever hear the interpetation you will know if it builds up a church or if it tears it down. I would hate the use the word feelings with an non believer. Was there any truth to the statement if so was it accurate. If it is prophecy did it come true or is it true. Each case can be tested. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 934 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
God still heals today, saves today, fills with His Spirit today and uses His people in the gifts of the Spirit today. and All of that is the Full Gospel Agreed...but none of this is from an unknown language. You are under a desception. | ||
| jayhernandez Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 68.21.76.35 |
Turtle, Arron and the rest of the crew that believe in tounges. Rather speaking in them the way you've been taught and your pastor has been taught and your pastors pastors been taught and his pastors pastors pastors made up....here is a challenge. I might answer your question with the same scriptures you’ve given. Since you’ve given the same scriptures I’d give to disprove your interpretation but upholds mine then it’s clear to see more explanation is mandated. It’s not the scripture that we appeal to but to our understanding. If this is not so then we CAN go our marry way content that we have held to opposite but equally true opinions. Since neither of us can know the Truth there is no need for discussion. If there’s no Truth, then who can know it? | ||
| jayhernandez Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 68.21.76.35 |
One might suggest a methodical approach to interpreting the text on the focus of speaking in tongues can be done while another suggest that doing so is limiting to the properties existing in such an occurrence of a supernatural phenomena. Another might suggest that if such method takes place then “case closed”, no further discussion is needed. Yet this does not answer the question. Can one really appeal to the Truth consciously? I am of the belief and school of thought that in all my ways I CAN acknowledge God and this includes intellect. My God given ability to discern and capture my thoughts. Since doing so is consistent within the framework of natural human ability then I do so not to simply entertain you by providing the ground rules. Nor do I consider this to be time consuming and a waste of time. The only ground rule I point out is not of mine. If it were of myself then I would have never ever been able to perceive it, let alone formulate it. Here it is: what will you do with the Truth? In Truth, the Truth is a call to action. Let it be understood that the Truth cannot be known if the Truth is not prepared to be accepted. Are we willing to abandoned a preconceived understanding of the Truth? This does not keep us in the balance of depending on our own ability to think and our sanity. This means that we continually understand the Truth while never adding to the Truth. To add to the Truth requires a person to keep in line the “check list” of thought and requires a great deal of mental gymnastics. Very tiring! If discovering the position opposite of ones belief is true it is not simply truer but Truth, thus eliminating any setback or slipping. This has serious implications for some as it did for anyone who understands the Truth. Is there anything or anyone keeping us from seeking the Truth out? Oh we can do 10 years of seminary school and we can pray 8 hours a day but there is nothing like holding the key to an unlocked door that we haven’t given way to for life. This does not mean to abandon logic but requires us to engage it. This means searching out our own heart and discovering that which is keeping us from recognizing it. If learning the Truth requires us to admit we were wrong and that would be to hard to do then we’d never be in position to consider admitting it. This must not be the soil of our heart in this search. We should not reserve the right to be disappointed. If discovering the Truth means we reverse everything we’ve taught in Sunday school or our children and that is to hard then again the Truth will not be revealed. If discovering the Truth means we address the church and be asked to leave and if that means our source of income is jeopardized then again we have not understood the rule. There is one rule. There has always been one. Even in all the commandments. Will we obey? Discovering the Truth is a call to obedience. Obedience in full effort is putting complete trust in God. Jesus spoke of obedience when the disciples asked for more faith. What a response! | ||
| jayhernandez Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 68.21.76.35 |
I'm cleary appealing to intellect and the ability to use it. If this is OK then we can move on. It's been my experience with people who believe this stuff see the mind as an obstical to experiencing what you felt was so real. Think of this- if your right and I'm wrong, am I just a little right or are you just a little right? You see how divided the church really is on this? Now lets look at love! Is there anyone out there that illustrates this today? Rememeber if your tieing speaking in tounges to Salvation then your immediatly disqualified from this conversation being that you can't engage this in Truth. If you are one that want to know more about Salvation then let us know and we can discuss that as well..I'd be happy to point you in the right direction. Tounges as so understood is not the manifestation of Salvation. Know that Christ died for everyone whether we believe it individually or not! Get ready set go.... Jay the peacemaker | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1852 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.205.23 |
when i speak in tongues i am in THE SPIRIT, it is THE SPIRIT THAT SPEAKS useing my vocal cord to do it. my intellect is not involved in the speaking itself as that is done by THE SPIRIT OF GOD. i am fully aware of my surrondings i am not off or crazy nor do i have religious frenzeys or what ever i am a sane ( i hope, ha ha ) person who loves THE LORD. i do not make it up neither does the one who has the interpertation. i dont know of any one who truly has THE SPIRIT OF GOD in them that makes up anything. to say or interpretet | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.37 |
jayhernandez I was not tought Tongues as you claim. And as far as coming at it from your own Intelect the things of God are not our ways. And Salvation is By Grace alone through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. "Know that Christ died for everyone whether we believe it individually or not! Get ready set go...." | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1187 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
I am saved, Sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit. (Baptized with the Holy Ghost. Sanctification a work in progress. And Saved under the Blood of Jesus. Can I get any clear then that. Who saves us Christ saves us. whow bapises us but the Holy Spirit Who sanctifies us but Christ. Any questions. I think Jayhendez does this clearify. If not maybe I should give you scripture but I really dont' think that will help your intellicut unless you take it to your heart. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 978 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
when i speak in tongues i am in THE SPIRIT, it is THE SPIRIT THAT SPEAKS useing my vocal cord to do it. my intellect is not involved in the speaking itself as that is done by THE SPIRIT OF GOD. LOL, arron I know you THINK that you are experiencing God but you are not, You are being deceived because God's examples to us in the bible do not follow the example that you just quoted. This is EXACTLY the reason that I started the Baspheme thread....to expain the difference between God speaking through us and US praying to God! Arron has mixed these up BIG TIME TURTLE, NO ONE IS SAYING THAT YOU DON'T LOVE THE LORD JESUS what we are saying is that what you are practicing is evil. Praying in an unknown language is fruitless and does nothing to honor God but takes away from His Word and makes thsoe words unknown and void. This is not from the Lord. God does not use any kind of confusion when He speaks....nor should we when we speak to Him. Can you give me a biblical example of GOD speaking and not ALL understanding the words if not the Message? There is none. Yes, I beleive that you are saved by the blood of Christ, and that is what makes knowing how you practice your faith so hurtfull to me and others who care for you. We do not want you to be fooled by demonic influence, which may be the case. Did you read arrons quote? Arron is saying that GOD HIMSELF is speaking some unintelligable language through arron. This is not describibg the events of 1 Cor14, but what he has unfortunately mixed up with Act2 The two events are not describing the same thing. So arron is saying that God is speaking through him. And that those words are unintelligable until a man interprates them...HAHAHAHAHA that is sooooo funny.....God knows english and french and chineese and all other real languages. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 979 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
I have noticed that some here would rather here the words of a man(preacher) than that of God. Why? | ||
| terluvire Intermediate Member Username: terluvire Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.229.6.62 |
HI Ezekiel, Good post! Hi Jay, Quote: Tounges as so understood is not the manifestation of Salvation. Know that Christ died for everyone whether we believe it individually or not! Get ready set go.... End Quote You go Jay! Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Hmmmm, there is no mention of the malefactor speaking in "tongues" in order to get to paradise. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 982 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
Hi Ter, how ya been...missed ya. Thanks for the backup This seems to be a case of tradition versus scripture Peace c | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1188 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
Ezekiel, I have example where all did not hear the message or understand it. Take a look at these verses. John 12:28-30 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Take a look at who Jesus spoke to and why in the surrounding verses. He was speaking to Greeks at that came to the feast that came to worship Him. Some heard thunder some heard wind and some heard the messge. So their you go ezekiel. How do you deal with that. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1921 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.10 |
zek i am going to take averse out of context as my answer to you... as a man thinketh in his heart so is he.. well if i think i am then i am in THE SPIRIT OF GOD.. this is not to my thinking but to your inane ways that you speak when one say things to you. many spoke in tongues ( unknown tongues ) in the bible many have done so since then now you can have your opinion but i will follow the bible way. i saw where you said you ahd started the blasphem thread... is that what you are doing ... be careful about blasphemeing...and i am not the one mixed up big time but you sure are real big big big time. | ||
| terluvire Intermediate Member Username: terluvire Post Number: 213 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.229.6.62 |
HI Ezekeil, I've been good. Thanks so much for asking. I've been at other places planting seeds. I really needed a break from this place. If people were more mature in their debate tactics, it would be easier. I think you know which ones I'm talking about...lol HI all, I think God makes it very very clear what the penecostal tongue was all about: Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Cloven in the Greek is: diamerizo dee-am-er-id'-zo From G1223 and G3307; to partition thoroughly (literally in distribution, figuratively in dissension): - cloven, divide, part. It does not mean "unknown" Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Tongues in the Greek is: glossa gloce'-sah Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue. Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Every single person present there understood exactly what was being said, in their own language (even down to their own dialect), without an interpretor. There was absolutely no confusion. And it was not unknown to the hearer. Cont..... | ||
| terluvire Intermediate Member Username: terluvire Post Number: 214 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.229.6.62 |
Continued from above: The apostles spoke and and all heard exactly what was being said in their own natural tongue, language. That was the evidence of the Holy Spirit, for man cannot do this without an interpretor. This was the true penecostal tongue. It is not what people practice today in churches. When someone is speaking in "tongues" in a church, no one understands them!!! And even if someone, quote "interprets" them, how does one know the interpretation is true????? Anyone could say anything and no one would be able to test whether their interpretation is true or not. See what I mean????? God is not the author of confusion. If He has anything to say, even through a person, it is most certainly understood by all, without an interpretor!!!! God will not speak the way many profess he does today. Many today, which claim to speak in tongues, even they don't know what they, themselves, are sayingAnd if they claim to know, how is one to test that it was really from God???? God just doesn't operate like this. The penecostal tongue was clearly understood by all that were there, without an interpretor. Sorry, I mean no offence. I truly don't. I'm just trying to bring some common sense into this. I don't mean any disrespect at all. I know that those who claim to speak in tongues, they truly do love the Lord. Please, look at what God has to say and not what your pastor is telling you. Peace | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1189 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
terluvire, So you know I have spoken about tongues under babble babble is not tongues thread under pentecostal heading that we are now. I explain chapter 14 of I Corinthians it is not to far from the bottom. Take a look. And read. Maybe you might see soemthing in Corinthians 14 you never seen or never read because you overlooked it. Take time and go verse by verse on your own. That passage is about tongues as well as prophecy. With prophecy being more imporant. I do not know if you even believe in God I dont' think I have meet you before what denomination are you affliated with. Do you confess to be a christian? Do you confess Jesus as Lord. And the fact Christ came in the flesh???? | ||
| ezekiel_37 Advanced Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 987 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
The Pharisees were wrong in just about every thing they did. They followed the traditions and not the Word. These same Pharisees are the ones who heard of Lazarus being raised from the dead and knew Jesus was responsible. They also knew that there would be a following. They wanted to detour this as you probably already know and 'started a plottin'. and there were also greeks there who came to worship...and wanted to meet the One responsible for Lazarus' resurection. Jesus explains, like the corn seed, abundant life will come from his death. But they all understood what was being said, Some said that IT, the Voice of God...Thundered...and it did, I have no doubt...strong and loud, but a voice. Some said that it must have been an angel....Now turtle, do you think that the people there KNEW what an ANGEL sounds like? The adjectives used are explaining the Strength and Importance and Authority of the Voice that Spoke. All there understood that statement, whether they took it for God or an angel of God, all understood, and this voice came from above and not from a simple man's throat. The verses that you quoted do not state that they did not understasnd, but rather that the voice of God is Strong and Authorative, like Thunder or what an Angel must sound like.... They had never heard anything like it before. John 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Some that follow God do not hear His real voice, even if they HEAR it! | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1190 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
First off I see you are very blind and tht is all I will say. You twist it for you on imagination. Even a good christian that is a baptist or methodist could interpet this better. | ||
| terluvire Intermediate Member Username: terluvire Post Number: 216 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.229.6.62 |
Good day Turtle, Yes I most certainly do love the Lord with all my heart soul and mind. I gave my heart to Christ many many years ago. Why do you ask? I pray it's not because I don't believe in "speaking in tongues" the way the Penecostals teach. NO where in God's word does it say that one has to speak in tongues as evidence of their salvation. I do though, believe in the cloven tongue spoken on Pentecost day. As far as 1Corin 14, I believe it is saying that when we teach the Word to those who speak a different language, we're suppose to bring along an interpreter, who can effectively bring forth the inflection and charisma of the teachings, in the same foreign language of the people we're speaking to. God gave an example of speaking in "the tongue" of Pentecost in the book of Acts. It was clearly understood by all. No interpretor was needed. That is the evidence of the Holy Spirit speaking through someone. Why would God give a clear sign in Acts, which was understood by all, even unbelievers and then allow another kind of speaking in tongues which leads to confusion for the unbeliever and believers alike? To me, and in God's Word, He doesn't. When he spoke through the Apostles, it was clearly understood by ALL, NO Interpretor Nedded! You don't need to agree with me. I'm just stating it as I see it in our Fathers word. Peace | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 164 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.37 |
terluvire That is right one doesn't have to speak in tongues to be saved but only a saved person can speak in tongues. Only by the redemptive work of the Cross and faith in Jesus Christ can one Be saved. Rom 10:9-13 I believe the word of God shows and says that tongues is a sign to the unbeliever 1COR 14:22 and with interpretation for the body of Christ 1Cor 14:1-24. The gifts of the Spirit are for today; some may not be correctly using those gifts and will be held accountable. Tongues is not thee Issue but LOVE is. Show me a person speaking in tongues who doesn't love and I will show you false tongues. The bible clearly shows us two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts one of being saved and one of being empowered to do a Job for the Lord. It is what Paul explained to the disciples at Ephesus Acts 19:1-7 they were saved just have not been empowered by the Holy Spirit or Baptized in the Holy Spirit after they believed | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1191 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
terluvire No I do think you and I disagree but I do believe Tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, but not necesary for salvation and if one has this gift of God then according to I Corinthians 14 they need to follow what is said when to speak in tongues and when only it should be between you and God. Now with that said. Praise the Lord Jesus is your Savior. I ask because I havent' read many of your post yet. | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.162.5.11 |
turtle do you believe that Tongues is used today in Churc h ? | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1192 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.104.75 |
I do believe it can be used today. But not every one that manifest tongues is of God. Some it is literally a show. Look at me I aore spiritual type of thing. This bothers me. YOU can neither use God or manifest the Holy Spirit for self glorification. Just like preaching behind a pulpit makes you not necessarily ordain of God to do so. Or teach in a class room. YOu use these positions for personal fame and your own glory beware. God will have His say. | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 167 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.44 |
that is true and I agree with that, and Paul adressed that very clearly as to what Tongues is for in the church and out of the church. The holy Spirit will not speak of Himself but bring into rememberance all of what Jesus said right? so that should be known to anyone who preaches,prophies or tongues and interepation. | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1003 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.43.16.51 |
When God speaks, no man need translate, as ACTS tells us. You misunderstand the 1 Cor letter and use that misunderstanding in a mixture of Acts and 1Cor14 and call it a prayer language. And some call it strait from God although not all can understand it! that is not biblical and is a forgery...you are being duped! Sorry but you are! And most of you are good Chrsitians otherwise, but you believe a lie and are following a preception and not the true Holy Spirit! Chalantry and demonic forces. | ||
| cs1 Intermediate Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.43 |
again one cannot have Jesus and a demon ok it is very clear Luke in acts shows How the Acts of the Holy Spirit help the church move into a powerful witness to launch the body of Christ to win the Lost. and tongues was then as it is now! a part of the Church. you may not like it but that is ok. Tongues devine, healing, working of miricles and all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit OUR for today thank you Jesus. I find it funny to me that you say we believe a lie when SS is a Big one at least tongues is found in the word of God and Jesus Himself said that we would Literally!!! not allegorically like SS doctrine |
