| Author | Message | ||
     spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 216.20.87.110 |
The charges/case against JT in Boston have(has) been dismissed | ||
| faye2 Member Username: faye2 Post Number: 62 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.55.189.78 |
And the other 8 charges are still in place. JT's mother posted bail, JT jumped bail and fled, and was arrested in Mass, where he is being held now. | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
He is currently being held in Hyannis and will go to court in early May. The charges are expected to be dropped there as well-lack of evidence/investigation seems to peter out. Then he will be extridited to Vermont. Although there are several charges in both places (some verified others not), JT has admitted to spanking the children (as was expected of him as a teacher and father) so those charges may stand but they did not in Boston. What is weird is they (the TT) were "threatening" charges in coxsackie (sp?) but now they say they won't-what's up with this? On a very sad note...the reason JT fled and was arrested was because he had a mental breakdown. The pressure of the charges/court cases and losing his children proved to be too much. He was seeking psychiatric help and had an episode with taking/not taking his meds. He missed a court case in the midst of his breakdown and had a warrent issued for his arrest. He was picked up in w. mass and is now awaiting trial. Before this he was encouraged to check himself into a mental health facility but could not bring himself to do so because he felt he had been instutionalized for so many years in the TT- he felt he could not give control of his life over again. Not an excuse but the reason holding him back from rec'g help. I would hate for his story to turn out as proof of the TT's teachings re: people who leave-that they will burn in the lake of fire and suffer tremendously in the outside world (some may say he deserves to). My hope is that we could bring about healing for all of those hurt by these incidents. For all parties to come to understanding, forgiveness, and make a place for a open dialogue to begin. Can people who commit crimes repent, serve a pentance (sp?) and be forgiven. Can they be let back in ( not to the TT but to salvation) at some point, after a certain amount of sacrifice is paid? Just a question and wanted to let you guys know what I know because I respect all of you here and hope you can do something good with the info. I don't want to spread gossip or hurt anyone. So I will leave all judgement to those who know, to the courts, and ultimately we as people may never know or be able to/should judge. Hopefully the truth will come to light and healing can begin for all parties involoved. sincerely, spike | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 546 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.57 |
Is admittance of "spanking" repentance for pedophilia? | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 348 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
I would like to make a point that many people who enter cults suffer from depression, and the pressures within the cult can sometimes trigger psychotic episodes. Initially, when individuals enter cults they feel the depression lift, not understanding that the down feeling has been replaced by dissociative disorder. When something traumatic happens to snap them back into reality, the depression that was always there, but only masked, returns with a vengeance and can really devastate the person. Of course at that point the cult points the finger rather than taking the blame on themselves . where it belongs, right in their mug, especially if they cast out the demons of depression, and boasted about it.. | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 90 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Dear Naba, In no ways was I suggesting that JT had served his pentence by admittance or any other action. I was just asking if healing was possible and what it would look like. Thanks for your input. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 239 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
lookatall - you have a very good understanding of cults and the cause & effects - do you mind if i ask how you came by this knowledge (experience, study,...) i have found that not all who have experienced a cult really understand what is really going on. by the way - how did you like 'The Village'? (I havent been able to get my hands on Savage Messiah, none of the video stores in my area carry it) | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 352 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
Hi DT, I have come by my knowledge by experience, and study. I was in a cult, and later I had a child who was trapped in a cult. I am particularly interested in the role that depression plays in people who are drawn into cults, and how dangerous that is to their mental and physical survival. I am also interested in childrens rights and you and Spike seem to often be shouting common sense warnings into an ill wind that is blowing in the other direction, back towards abuse. I have noticed, looking back through the threads that some posters seem to have symptoms of mania. This makes me very concerned for them, especially if they enter the TT with children in tow. If anyone else who reads this experiences a lot of up and down moods and racing thoughts, please read the readily available book by Kay Jamison, "An Unquiet Mind." As for "The Village" I can only say it was an extraordinarily powerful commentary on mind control. Cults seem to feel safe located culturally within the late 19th century. Just enough technology to get by, but not enough to cause members to question whoever is the ultimate authority. Also long attire gives an illusion of purity although we are all equally sinners saved by grace. It is interesting that fear of death is what is used to control the villagers. Fear of spiritual death is what is used by Mr Spriggs to recruit and control the TT members. Please continue to search for "The Savage Messiah" through Amazon. It is also a powerful commentary on cults. hang in there, you know what is going on. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 248 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
I hope your child is now free. I agree, that much of what I have to say is like 'shouting into an ill wind that is blowing in the other direction, back towards abuse', however, I am also aware that cult leaders will have people placed in places like this to try and deter us from speaking the truth. I dont mind the controversy so much, knowing that maybe some looking for information might read these threads and be warned. The ones who are helped may never post a word. Unfortunately, the people i am most concerned about, children of cults (as I once was) most likely have no access to any outside information and information like this posting board is useless. I also have noticed what you talk about in the threads - Factnet is full of current and potential cult members and recruits. I still suffer trauma symptoms. I hope someday to help build on a network of support for people like myself, children of cults. | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 358 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
DT, this is an excerpt on child abuse in cults, taken from this website. You have probably read it , but I hope others read it who may be foolishly deciding on their children's fate without examining the facts. In case anyone has any complaints out there about this, please keep in mind that FACTNET are footing the bill for you to post here. This may also answer several questions about childrearing in hte TT on other threads. Markowitz and Halperin (1984) The cult's hierarchical structure and its setting itself up as "family" turn parents into "middle-management" with regard to their own children. How they discipline their children, what activities they encourage in their children, what they teach their children: such decisions are dictated by the group's leader. The parents' role as middle-managers can become especially dangerous for children when the leader measures the parents' dedication to him by their willingness to abuse their children at his request (Landa, 1990-91). In addition, the parents' dependence on the leader, the either-or mentality of the group, and the frequency with which members are subjected to oscillating rewards and punishments can, in conjunction with group strictures against dissent, result in a great deal of suppressed anger. Parents may then vent their frustrations on their children. Such projection of anger becomes even more destructive when the group's doctrine emphasizes harsh physical discipline, i.e., "spare the rod, spoil the child." Gaines, Wilson, Redican, and Baffi (1984) surveyed 70 ex-cult members in order to "determine the effects of cult membership on the health status of current and past members, including children" (p. 13). Among their findings relevant to the treatment of children were the following: 00. 27% of the respondents said children in their groups were not immunized against common childhood diseases 00. 23% said children did not get at least 8 hours of sleep a night 00. 60% said their groups permitted physical punishment of children 00. 13% said that children were sometimes physically disabled or hurt to teach them a lesson 00. 13% said that the punishment of children was sometimes life-threatening or required a physician's care 00. 61% said families were encouraged to live together and share responsibilities 37% said that children were seen by a doctor when ill | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 251 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
Thanks for the info lookatall. This is all so true. It seems you have a sincere interest in this. I am trying to write a book about my experiences growing up in a cult, and what happended when I ran away. Are you aware of any resources that would be interested in assisting me in this endevor? Also, in what I could share relevant to the continuing research on the subject? | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 360 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
You should tell a story that concentrates on a few key incidents rather than attempting to give a blow by blow (no pun intended) account. It will involve renewed pain for you to write the story, if you can handle this.f Remember yourself as a small child witnessing something that children should never see. Remember and describe the room you saw this is in, the people faces, what they wore, how you felt. This is a good startingpoint. I saw a picture on your community's website of a small girl running around like any child, and imagined it was you. Also a writing course if you can manage that, might really help. Analyse why you enjoy certain writers, and their style. Also study screenwriting as you probalby have conversations fixed in your memory, Screenwriting does not spell out every detail, but has to say everything through what is seen and heard, but not thoughts. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 256 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
It is a very difficult process, as you said. I have already begun. It would be much easier if I didnt have to carry on with life as ususal while doing it, so the going is slow. The children there do look happy. My hope, with this book is to include the good with the bad. it would not be a complete story if I were to simply bash the place with horror stories of the atrocities that happened. That is the thing with these groups - the wonderful happy life they present which lures the innocent there in the first place. I will certainly take your advice regarding a writing course and all the other good things you had to say! Thanks! AgapE ~DT | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 549 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.58 |
Watch this!!!! http://www.xenutv.com/cults/wave.htm | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
"the wonderful happy life they present which lures the innocent there in the first place. " This is so true, and apparently this truth is unacceptable to those who cannot let go of the idea of an earthly spiritual utopia. But we are pilgrims and strangers on this earth. | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
Spike-to answer your questions-if JT did what they say, of course he should be punished by the courts. As far as the TT-since this has become such a big mess-I doubt that they would ever judge his heart to be in full repentence and they would never let him back in. As far as TRUE salvation (not TT doctrine)-JT can be saved by grace-if he truely gives his heart to Jesus. Not the punitive wrathful Yashua-but the TRUE MESSIAH. Yes, as someone said the TT will use JT's mental problems as an example as to why people should STAY within the Body and not leave the Father. After I left people kept calling me saying things like "Shannon-come home! Your Abba is looking for you." Hey, man-if He's the God of the Universe-He can see me right where I am. and He can see and heal JT and the dc JT hurt too (spanking or otherwise). FWIW-JT continued to spank his dc after he left the community-HARD and OFTEN with a rod. I heard it and saw it. It was so bad, that I stepped in. I talked to him and told him it was abuse-and I point blank told him that he had to get services for Y's development. We lived in the same household in the community-but the stress that he endured after the community changed him. I don't know if the charges are true-but I have my own opinion on that that I won't put here. Just keep praying for him and his dc and all the people in the TT. Anyone know how his dc are? Is his wife totally free from the TT? I hope so. His dc are great boys. | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 91 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Dear Shannon, thanks for the reply and I concur. I heard Batach was back living with the tribes recently. Yes, I saw harsh discipline too that was usually taking the child out of the room and having words (I never saw or heard actual spanking-N never cried out). I think he was learning to discipline w/o the rod. He asked for much advice and leaned on us to help him become the best caregiver for his children. In the end, Y was rec'g therapy 3 times a week. N was learning to control his own behavior w/o the threat of the rod. I saddens me to think what they might be enduring now. I am sure N is attracting much attention and rec'g much correction (not necessarily a bad thing but I hope he feels love too). I have wanted to contact Batach and see if she would meet us at a park and let our boys play together. We have not seen them since last year at this time and miss them dearly, want them to know we have not abandoned them, and care deeply about their adjustment and healing. peace, spike | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
I lived in the community-what they recieve there can be no worse than what I saw and heard JT do. I could here N's screams, JT's threats, and the sound of the rod on bare flesh, on more than one occasion. JT acted much different w/you and his other family center friends, than he did when it was just my family and his. I was there w/ you at N's B-day and other times without anyone else. It was like night and day. I'm not critising him-I'm just saying let's take off the rose colored glasses and speak the truth. He wasn't father of the year. He was my friend-went thru a lot-and is still going thru alot. I hope he comes out of this better than when he went into thte TT. I'd like nothing better than to see him go on to live a calm, sane life. I do care about him. I've always liked his personality-even when I first met him. So much energy, and caring and fun. I hope that can come back to him soon. But let's not blame the TT for what JT chose to do as an adult. He must be held accountable for choices he made. That's the first step in repentance. | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
PS-I'm the one who emailed you when I saw the boys w/ Batak a few months ago. They looked great. It would be a shame if she went back. N's energy would never be accepted there and Y's delays would go without professional help. | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.188 |
} I do agree that being honest is the best. JT was not the "perfect" father. And honestly, I have never been the "perfect" parent either. I have lost my temper with my children, yelled at them, spanked them in anger on occassion...I don't think I know a parent who hasn't, if they are able to be honest with themselves. But I do agree with Spike, JT was constantly seeking advice on parenting and alternative discipline strategies and I watched the boys increase over time. From my own experience in TT, I do believe their means of "disciplining" children does open the door for abuse. I saw it myself, listened as other parents struggled with it and watched as my own children were "disciplined" much harsher than I ever wished by various members of the TT. The very fact that child rearing is so "communal" is scary as the very structure breeds opportunities for abuse in wide varieties. Knowing JT, I have to say that I have a very difficult time believing that he would ever violate a child. Spank...yes, violate...no. I have never observed any behavior that would indicate this. I discussed this topic at length with him at different times, asked him outright if these charges were justified and, if they were, strongly insisted that he surrender himself, admit to the atrocities, embrace the consequences, and get help for his "issues" so as to prevent more damage being done. JT has maintained his innocence and, unless his guilt can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, I believe him. Innocent until proven guilty. | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
well-I can't see JT violating a child either, but I do have a sibling who was mloested/raped repeatedly by an neighborhood child. We didn't find out for YEARS. I have lived nextdoor to the rapist for 30 years and I have NEVER EVER seen a hint of it-but I believe my sibling. JT has always sent off red flags for me, both in the TT and out-and I never even knew about these charges. I never said anything, but my dh approached me and expressed his concern that JT was setting off red flags for him, and asked for me never to leave our children alone with him. Again-all of this was a year BEFORE we ever heard of the charges. I just can't see why the TT would: 1. Make this up 2. Have a personal vendetta against JT 3. Take the time, energy, and resources to pursue this I know of a case in the TT where a young girl (around age 8) was raped by her father. She was told that there was a sexual spirit about her, and they sent her father to another community near by. He would visit on the weekends-and they were trying to put the family back together. They blamed that little girl for her father's actions, did NOT report it to the police, and even tried to get him to live with her again, and set her up for future rapes. I have spoken to this girl, now a woman-and she told me all of this. I lived with her in the community-and it explains a lot of odd behaviors she had, which I now know where a result of PTSD. I say all of this because it is not like the community to come forward on this stuff 'cause it opens them up for public scrutiny. It involves the local and other governmental authorities in their busniss-something they ABHOR 'cause the whole of TT survives on secrecy. That;s how they have been able to get away with abusing their dc for 30+ years. Anyone have any thought on as to WHY they would pursue this one person, JT, if it wasn't true? To me, it seems as if the TT has nothing to gain, and EVERYTHING to lose.... | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Dear Shannon, I respect your thoughts on this matter and hope for the best for N and Y (we have heard she is living in community). We want the boys to know we love them and miss them dearly. Some thoughts I had regarding the questions you raised...I believe it (the court cases) stems from wanting the children back. Batach freely gave up custody even acknowledging allegations of abuse in court (and court document/records) when she went back to the TT the first time. I know there was talk of in the TT of "bringing back into the fold" and there was/is a big push for increasing their numbers. Now, I don't know if the charges are true or not but I do question why they would wait ten years to come forward and prosecute (they should be held accountable if he is found guilty and the should "pay" for the trauma experienced by the children (including providing therapy for those effected). Or conversely, if he is found not guilty what is the "price" for encouraging/making children/people lie and destroying lives? Other fishy questions are why did they threaten charges in Coxsackie but not file them if abuse really occured there? Why were the charges dismissed in Boston after investigation (the most in depth and thourough investigation yet, of all the cases, performed by the most experienced professionals)? Why aren't the other cases moving forward? Why has there not been more publicity? I don't have any answers only faith/hope that the truth will come to light some day soon and healing can begin. For those with family in the TT, or others who have left and cannot maintain their relationships with their friends, families, and loved ones-I feel your pain. There is an empty place in our heart w/o N, Y and JT. My family and our friends sorely miss the beautiful relationship we were building with this family in our own little community. We would take any communication we could have with them to be able to continue this friendship. Even if that means the boys live with their Imma in the Tribes and JT goes to jail. Is there any hope for us to maintain contact with the boys? We would promise not to say anything bad or dispareging about the TT in front of the boys, just to be able to hug them and let them play with our children in a neutral place... | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
the elders would never let that happen. period. they would not want your "worldly" ways (their opinion-not mine!) to influence N and Y. N and Y might want to leave if they saw what you and your family have, both physically and emotionally. There is a lot of confusion re: teh timing of the charges, etc. However-my sibling was raped from the ages of 5-10 and did not utter a WORD re: this until he was 21. I think sometimes as a child, ESP. in the TT-children are 100% POWERLESS. I had been there only a month or two at the most, when a family had me care for their 3 year old for a week while they were sent to another community!! Looking back now it's crazy, but then it was no big deal. As I'm sure you know the dc in the community are at the mercy (or lack there of...)of ANY tribe member, at any time. My guess, is that if the charges are true, and it's ONLY a guess,I bet the victim did not realize HOW wrong the offense was until he/she became an adult. That's when LOGICAL thinking can start to begin. My bro did not say ANYTHING until he was 21-11 years after the abuse stopped. I think it took til then to realize how AWFUL the crime was, and to stop blaming himself for what happened when he was a kindergartener! I think it's likely that this could haev happened in the TT. As far as dropping charges, etc.-it's pretty hard to find "evidence" 10 years later, and perhaps the TT member cannot or will not cooperate. I don't know. I don't think you could keep contact with JT's boys-unless you wrote and went for visits, as if you were thinking of joining-but then you might not want to leave. The love-bombing and welcome baskets are awesome, til they put you in the kitchen and you have to wash a stinky single brothers shorts everyweek...LOL!!! I still have gotten an answer as to WHY the TT would do this if there wasn't any eveidence/proof, etc. WHY would they pick JT to suffer like this? They could have accused him of lesser crimes, like stealing when he was a cafe manager... I think there's got to be *something* else goin' on here.... | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 93 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Dear Shannon, The only problem I see with your theories of repressed memory or kids not coming forward till later...I think these allegations came up when JT was in community and he was made to write and sign something in repentence of his actions (he said he did this under duress and never admitted to what was being alleged-he only wanted to be accepted and loved, to be not of a rebellious spirit and you know how descent is frowned upon...he vehemently denied any wrong doing but so badly wanted to be accepted by the elders). The allegations came up again in probate court (the first custody hearing back in 2002-3) and batach and the elders who chaperoned her to the proceedings said they (the allegations) were nothing and JT should be given custody of his dc. That's just what I know, and I wasn't there (the first time that is, but have been to almost every proceeding since) only read court documents and heard JT's side of the story (as well as some accounts of members that lived there with him-all of whom have left). Open Dialogue versus Secrecy...this could be its own thread Why can't we get this all out in the open and start the healing. I believe in protecting the victims and dont want to hurt them more but because no one will talk about this none of the courts or lawyers coordinate with the other cases in other states, probate, juvenille, and criminal courts will not communicate with each other and thus will not make judgements if another Judge has already ruled on the matter. I think if somebody layed out all the allegations along with statements made by all those involved, looking at a timeline, examining ex parte communication that has been sent by the tribes to win favor with judges, looked at the teachings on lying and deception and of course listened to witnesses from in and outside of the TT (none have come forward to help either side of the case) maybe we could get to the truth. Oh I almost forgot...this all started when the IRS went after batach for non-payment of child support even thought JT refused any money from her. But because he accepted help from the state (he had to stay home to raise his boys and not work full-time) they wanted reimbursement from her. That is when they wanted the kids back. So I dont know if this all adds up to *something* else but I too would like to know... | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
Spike-I hear ya! I agree with you, I had forgotten the timeline, that you mentioned re: the gov. going after Batach/The TT for $$$. HOWEVER...I *know* he was on Church Discipline prior to ever leaving. There *had* to be a precipitating event that he was accused of. I mean, WHY would they have him sign something (allbeit, under duress) if he was just goin' along with TT life. WHY was he sent away, if he did *nothing* wrong... Do you see where I am going here? I think the truth lies somewhere between JT and the TTs. I just can't IMAGINE that this is a 100% FALSE accusation. I do think it is VERY possible that the TTs sat on this info and only pulled out the big guns when threatened with the possibility of having to pay $. They can be very dishonest about $ matters. I was there when Basin farm had some kind of surprise audit. Suddenly many single brothers disappeared. I know of at least 2 that took off for the day 'cause they had lots of $ in trust funds, in the world and the elders did not want those bank accounts to be included in the audit. I hadn't been there very long, maybe a couple of months, and I was ASTONISHED at their dishonesty. So there is somethin' stinky about their timing w/ JT... | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.5 |
Shannon, There was a precipitating event... A teen who was raised in the community was preparing to leave. This is considered very serious in the community, they want the children raised there to stay there. The teen was meeting with a group of elders, which included his father, about leaving...I have been through this experience myself...it is TERRIFYING... The verbal and mental abuse is.... mind boggling... undescribable...desperate... JT became involved in the meeting because the teen had been left in his care for extended periods of time and the elders saw JT as a person who had served as a "worldly" influence on the teen when JT first joined the community. JT never "signed" anything. On the command of the elders during the meeting, he apologized for, if in anyway, he had done anything to offend or corrupt the teen, had defiled him or had served as an influence for him to leave. When someone joins the community from the outside, someone who was not raised within the community, two worlds collide. Two worlds with extremely different views of life, different rules, different boundaries. In the mind of a child or teen raised in the community, especially one who is falling away, this can be extremely confusing. From my own observations, parents within the community are too reckless in allowing "outsiders" to care for their children. How can someone who has only been in the community for a month, or even two or three possibly reflect the heart of Yashua to a child who has been raised exclusively in the community for ten, twelve or fourteen years? How could these TT parents be so reckless? I would think they would be more vigilant so that the "devil" wouldn't sneak in and defile their children. Sexually violating a child is a horrific offense and one truly deserving of punishment, JT would be the first to agree with you. But, based on my own experience and the experience of others dear to me, I also believe these children have been terribly violated, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically by their parents and the elders in the community. They are scared, angry, oppressed, desperate, and very confused. Just a few thoughts to be pondered... I have my own compelling theories about *WHY* the TT would do this to JT...things are often much more complex than they appear to be...but I have rambled on enough here. | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
no-please ramble on! LOL! I am very grateful for your input. So, if I understand your post, the teen who was falling away kinda freaked out and accused JT of this awful thing? Perhaps to take the focus off him at the meeting and place it else where? But there are so many charges in different locations-just about every community he lived in, right? I understand how terrifying it can be to leave-that's why I left when no one was looking! Secretly packed up my car, little by little, one day, and waited for everyone to go up to the Ephriam house for breaking of bread. Then hopped in and got OUTTA there!!! I wasn't gonna sit there and be told I was going to the Lake of Fire, etc. when I had already made up my mind that God did not, and does not dwell in the TT. I am very interested in your theories as to why the TT would do this to JT, or anyone. I mean I just don't get why they have protected so many other people accused of sexual crimes against children, but not JT. That's fishy... | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 94 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Dear Shannon and Kumakumali, Thank you so much for your correspondance on this matter. I think we are starting to shine some light on some very dark places. Maybe others who know something else might also speak up? I would also like to thank the other factnet readers/posters for allowing this dialogue to take place w/o judgement. I don't think we would feel comfortable enough if we did not feel safe here-that our opinions are respected, discourse is encouraged, and dissent is allowed. Back to the youngster that was leaving-you are right kumakumali-I had forgotten the specifics of the event and yes the TT was trying desperately to "not let this child fall away". It does show to what lengths they will go to discourage members from leaving and the psychological pressure they put on them especially in terms of shame, guilt, and damnation. I appreciate RCV's stance on not wanting anyone to stay for the wrong reasons. And I am glad you made it out Shannon! Kumakumali, am I right to assume you lived in the TT and have since left too? I would again like to thank everyone here for their input and respectful tone. This is the kind of honest dialogue that may open up the TT to see that they might be wrong sometimes, to humble themselves, and perhaps to being a little more accepting/respectful of people who may hold different beliefs from them. (Message edited by spike on May 05, 2006) | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 292 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
I just want to thank everyone here for sharing these stories. It is heartening to see acknowledgement of what is happening to children who are raised under these circumstances. Although not from tt, what you describe is so much like my upbringing in coj. kumakumali said, I also believe these children have been terribly violated, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically by their parents and the elders in the community. They are scared, angry, oppressed, desperate, and very confused. " You are so right. | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 369 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
Yes, a first hand account cannot be argued against by the deceived ones. It is hard to imagine how anyone reading this would ever consider subjecting their children to the TT's. By telling the truth you are protecting the vulnerable ones, both past, present and future. | ||
| mozelle Intermediate Member Username: mozelle Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.105.86.69 |
I find it interesting that the TT encourage people to leave-even hate-their families of origin for the purpose of giving up their lives. Yet if a child raised there wants to leave, they are falling away. But they have never know any other life, so isn't that giving up their life? Wouldn't it be better to let them leave and come back when it is their choice, something like what the Amish do? | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
yes-but their original doctine of "saved by grace" has been replaced by "saved by works"... | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.17.142.79 |
so-when's the next court date for JT? What are the charges, and what is the TT alledging? So he's stuck in jail, without or unable to post bail at this time? Anyone know how he's doin' thru all of this? Also-with all of this info flying around can anyone build me a solid timeline? I'm getting confused as to which came 1st, 2nd etc. I'm trying to look at the TTs motives, thru a timeline, KWIM? (Message edited by shannon on May 06, 2006) | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 95 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
He's hanging on by a thread. He would rather be dead, I believe, then to be w/o his children. He is being held w/o bail. I have an address that you can write to him through the Barnstable house of corrections. Email my yahoo account and we can talk more. Timeline... 1992 JT joins TT with first wife and his infant daughter and his slightly older adopted daughter (hers from a previous marriage) 6 months later she leaves JT and the TT with her girls because of the things she saw and heard happening to children and their families (philosophical differences to say the least. Do you know much about attachment parenting? They were into it, the TT abhored it.) He works hard as a single brother, moving up through the ranks especially after they marry him off to Licorice/Batach. N was born 2001 Y was born in 2003 Shortly before Y was born, both JT and Batach leave the community after JT brings up issues he sees wrong in TT governence By the time Y is 6 months old, Batach goes back in the tribes leaving both boys to be solely cared for by their father spring 2003 JT is granted full custody of boys Nov 2004 JT is contacted by IRS looking for Batach for backpayment of child support Jan 2005 TT files charges against JT in IP thats all I have time for now-will write more later | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1003 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
hi spike. the TT filed charges against a former member for sexual abuse? what was the motive for doing such a thing? according to what i have read he wasn't living there for two years before charges were filed. that seems very strange to me. the fact that they would file charges against a former member for any reason seems kind of odd to me. | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
that's what i've been tryin' to figure out. Apparently they ONLY filed charges after teh IRS went after Batach/TT for child support. Oh yeah-and I was thinking-if he WAS guilty of pedophilia, WHY ON EARTH would the TT let him take his 2 boys??? Why didn't they file charges to protect Y and N from JT? So, they sacrificed the safety of those 2 young boys, for the good of the group-sounds just like the TT. So STUPID. They'll do ANYTHING to protect the group. The don't give a rat's @ss for the individual people-it's all about protecting and furthering the group. So glad to be free of them!!!! | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 96 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Dear FOK and Shannon, exactly the points I brought up when this all first happened. He was out for 2 years when they filed the charges. Yes, the TT let him get custody either because they didn't care about the welfare of the boys or the charges are false. From the statements they have made to their professed beliefs they still come out as hypocrites. Isn't the TT (Christianity, the Bible, Jesus, God) about loving one another? I don't see any love in their actions or "works" regarding this issue. If we are to know their heart, why do they not make their intentions clear (through their words and deeds)? | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1011 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
what do the TT have to gain by filing pedaphelia charges against a former member? has anyone actually seen the police report that states that it was the TT that filed these charges? who signed the statement? (Message edited by fatherofaking on May 11, 2006) | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
He won't get custody of his 2 children and then they won't be forced to pay Batach's child support. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1012 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
hey shannon, are you serious? do you know for sure that is the motivation? it seems kind of petty to me. what you are incinuating is that they are doing it for the money. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 353 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
That doesnt sound petty at all to me. It sounds very typical. Just the kind of thing they would do at coj or gcc. fof, are you saying you think that isnt possible? | ||
| shannon New member Username: shannon Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
I've been there when they were hiding $/info from the gov. I used to think there was no way that this could be true, but it is true to form for the TT. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
oh yeah-and I know 1 girl in the TT, personally, who was raped by her father. It was never reported. She was blamed at age 7 or 8 for having a sexual spirit about her. They had her father move to another comunity and visit on the weekends. She was forced to spend time with him and act as if nothing was wrong. She suffered from PTSD-and was blamed for bedwetting, and her "sexual spirit." I know of another young man, maybe 15 or 16 at the time who would sneak into young girls (11-13, or so) rooms/tents on the hill and molest them. They didn't charge him, they just sent him away. and now, years later they are charging JT with a crime? | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1016 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
fof, are you saying you think that isnt possible? of course i am not saying that it is impossible. i am just having a hard time believing it. i don't know what their motivation is for not telling the government about some of the money that comes in. i do think that happens on occasion but until i know why they do that i am refraning from judgement. why they would be concerned about the little that they would be paying in child support is beyond me. i do not know if they are even doing that, let alone what their motive would be. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
If they set a precendent that they are willing to pay child support, they would have to pay hundreds of thousands of $ every year to the hundreds of fatherless/motherless children. The TT tells you that you have to give up your family if they are holding you back. I know of so many people who just walked away from their dc. If the gov KNEW and enforced child support the TTs would crumble. It hasn't happened yet-the only reason that it happened in this case is because JT applied for welfare and the gov went after Batack for child support. | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 577 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, On all this (once the thread became understandable) I share FoaK's puzzlement. It would be helpful to have more factual material, like court material. However some stuff in such cases may not be public record, although the court decisions generally will be. It is one thing to hide a trust fund in advance of an audit by people moving around ... an action that while on the sneaky side may not be technically illegal. Tis quite another to attempt to force somebody to jail on grey area or less accusations (and for financial motivations) ... while handling other cases totally differently (ie. hypocrisy). However, I still would be slow based on the limited amount of information. If this accusation is basically true though it would show a complete lack of integrity from TT. Some of the stuff that has been mentioned really does seem strange and dark, especially blaming the children when they are very young. However, again, reports are sketchy. One thing I will mention about the trust funds. First it is not surprising. Second, it refutes the big phoney facade of David Alexander (Derush) when he goes on various forums talking about giving up all posessions as a necessity. When the actual TT situation is brought forth, David Alexander can be seen simply as a public relations shill, and a hypocrite. Shalom, Steven Avery | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 97 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
I've read the police reports and they are signed by the accuser (young adults/older teens now). They read as if they have been told what to write. Several of them seem so similar though written by different authors (same word choice, phrasing, structure). Swantko and Wiseman seem to be the masterminds behind the charges. They have been seen in court (both criminal and juvenille), as well as written ex parte communication to the judges in several of the cases (illegal for lawyers to do when they are not the lawyer representing) trying to sway their decisions. One judge suggested she stop or be subject to disbarment. One lawyer was removed from one of the cases in the very beginning because of her illegal behavior. The case had to be continued till the TT found a new lawyer-court appointed (at the expense of tax payers). On the custody issue-The courts could have given full custody of the boys to batach in April but chose not to do so because JT and his family still have an interest and the Judge wanted to wait till the court cases were over. Conflict-DSS out here (in hampshire county) said they would never place a child in full custody of a parent in the Tribes due to the massive amount of info out there that would cast doubt on how that child might be handeled both physically and mentally. However DSS in Berkshire county will not listen to, or read any of the info provided to them about how the TT might raise N and Y. They have their heads in the sand- they said they don't want the boys living in community, so batach said she wasnt, now we know she is but they arent doing anything. They could force a parent to get treatment for a child but they are not checking to make sure Y gets his developmental therapy. basically if they dont hear any complaints from someone who has seen first hand (which is impossible because they have hidden themselves away) they will not act on it. If they had only lived 5 miles more east the story with DSS would be much different. Berkshire county dss is notoriusly neglectful, full of underskilled, underpaid and overworked social workers. I saw an ad in the paper that they were hiring full time case workers in Pittsfield (the town where all the juvenille/custody stuff occured) and they were only offeringg 25,000$ a year! How do they expect to hire qualified, dedicated, and committed case workers if that is the level of compensation they are feel is adequate for representing innocent children. They are trying to hire a lawyer to represent the boys (and their best interests) so they would have a neutral third party that can constructively and critically look at their lives and family and hopefully give them the best of both worlds. They deserve both a mom and a dad, they deserve to see and love their sisters and grandparents as well as foster the friendships they were beginning to build. | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 578 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Spike, you do seem to have a good understanding of the situation. If Swantko and Wiseman are manipulating in such a way, and it gets exposed, disbarment is a real possiblity, possibly criminal charges depending on the extent of their chicanery. Multiple dictated, similar false accounts would be about as bad as it gets, and even a similarity of verbiage alone would make a prima facie case for improper conduct. One step would be to have those folks who filed affidavits interrogated individually about any coaching or instructions under threat of perjury (aka.. jail). Has anybody considered a complaint to the state bar ? And/or talking to a DA ? Shalom, Steven Avery | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
I can't imagine how N's energy and zest for life and Y's dev delays/disabilites could EVER be handled. They will probably say that Y's problems are punishment for his parents sins (ie,leaving the "safety" of the TT.) | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1017 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
I've read the police reports and they are signed by the accuser (young adults/older teens now). since when do we prosecute people for any charge on the basis of a child's statement alone? investigate maybe, but prosecuting someone on such flimsy evidence as a child's statement seems irresponsible to me. | ||
| rainy_day_woman Intermediate Member Username: rainy_day_woman Post Number: 164 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.131.36.14 |
"oh yeah-and I know 1 girl in the TT, personally, who was raped by her father. It was never reported." Shannon, if this is true, then you have a legal responsibility to report what you know to social services or some authority. You yourself are guilty of a crime for not doing so! You lack integrity, and thus, credibility accourding to your own testimony. This makes me absolutely sick! | ||
| rainy_day_woman Intermediate Member Username: rainy_day_woman Post Number: 165 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.131.36.14 |
"I know of another young man, maybe 15 or 16 at the time who would sneak into young girls (11-13, or so) rooms/tents on the hill and molest them. They didn't charge him, they just sent him away." "They didn't charge him?" Did you report him? | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
no-I didn't know it then-over 10 years ago. She is now an adult, and told me about it when we reconnected a couple of years ago after she left. | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 98 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
so sad indeed! It is my greatest fear how N and Y are surviving this turbulent time. It is hard to imagine what fear and abandonment they must have felt and then to imagine what they will be told about their father, their spirit, what options they will have in life... The question of criminal charges...yes, I do believe that no matter what decision(s) a judge or judges make regarding these issues that somewhere the tribes have committed some illegal and immoral actions. Will they repent, will they say they are sorry? The big problem is who will take up the fight? I know a lot but I have a life to lead and a family to raise and support. How much energy can I put into this-it already has my heart and soul. I searched a lot in the beginning to try and find someone to help but any lawyers we found wanted large fees and no one wanted to do it pro bono. We do need to shed light on these atrocious acts and bring truth to power. One reason I think the charges in Boston were dismissed is that the investigators there did put it to the accusers just that way. Their affadavits fell apart when questioned separately w/o chaperones(elders) present. | ||
| rainy_day_woman Intermediate Member Username: rainy_day_woman Post Number: 166 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.131.36.14 |
I cannot believe this! Some here have the nerve to question the motives of the tribes for reporting someone who multiple children claim sexually abused them? SICK! | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 579 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Yes, Spike. That makes sense, although again without more specific corroboration it is not definitive. Suggested, coached testimony does not hold up well at all in private interrogatories. Legal folks are very wary of such accusations because of the coaching of lawyer, parents, even anti-cult deprogrammers, and perhaps in this case TT instigation. On top of all that you have the false memory syndrome psychobabble fiasco of the late 80's and 90's. Anyway, it is a very possible reason for dismissal of charges. Coached testimony that falls apart in private direct questioning. Another additional possible motive for TT would be .. "look, we are concerned, we helped prosecute such-an-such a case". They have at least one page where they give their overall view, did they allude to this case ? I haven't read carefully enough to tell. Shalom, Steven Avery | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 561 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.71 |
rdw, The question is why did they wait years before they did ??? | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.14 |
FYI: It is my understanding that JT will be appearing in court tomorrow morning (Friday) in Hyannis. If I remember the story correctly for this particular case...The youth (I believe he was 9 at the time) claims JT was his "math" teacher. He took him into a back room, had him pull his pants down, looked at the boy's penis (from a distance, he did not touch it) and spanked him with a rod. The youth said the way JT looked at him made him feel "uncomfortable." ((((Are the TT accusing JT of being a pedophile because HE has a "sexual spirit"? Like the 7 yo girl you mentioned earlier? Or maybe because he has a "feminine spirit"?))))) Anyway.... Here is the catch...the youth made this statement to the DA with his parents. They never mentioned that JT or the youth belonged to part of the TT or that spanking children on their bums with their pants down was normal practice within the TT. I know this because I talked to the DA office myself. So let us think about this for a moment.... 1. The TT completely misrepresented themselves to the DA by with-holding information. 2. From the police officer's prospective, JT was some guy, a "teacher," that made a kid pull down his pants and then spanked him with a rod...of course this would sound horrendous!! 3. This is what gets me...The DA is considering what is "normal" behavior WITHIN the TT to be ASSAULT outside of that context. In other words, spanking a child with a rod on the bare bottom is assault UNLESS you live within the community. So why isn't everyone at the community being charged with assaulting their children as well as the other children they have "disciplined?" In this particular case, as in Boston, the TT have repeatedly asked for continuance. They have had a very difficult time providing the simplest of information like the exact location where the assault took place...it took them 9 months or so to provide that information...seems to me they are just stalling and hoping the probate judge will grant custody of Y and N to Batach in the meantime. There are several other inconsistencies within the story that I hope come out eventually... I realize that everyone on this site has their own opinion and knowledge about JT. I am not trying to convince anyone of JT's guilt or innocence, I am just sharing what I know. I am really glad people feel comfortable enough to talk about it...It really needs to be discussed. I do hope, from the deepest part of my being, that JT will be fairly and accurately represented tomorrow in court and that the TRUTH about this entire situation will come to light. I believe that JT, at the very least, deserves justice. I hope we can all agree on that, regardless of our views about this case and I ask that we all keep JT and the youth involved in our thoughts tomorrow...may they find truth, forgiveness and healing through this process. | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 582 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, A possibility for making pertinent facts known (like the omission you just mentioned above) that might otherwise be overlooked is an 'amicus curiae', or 'friend of the court' brief. Ideally the points would be accepted for consideration, and this can be done with minimal or no cost. Just try to have the spelling and grammar decent.  It could even be attempted tomorrow, although I do not know whether the bench is approached directly or through the lawyer for JT. I don't think the lawywer has to give any approval to submit such a brief, but the judge might want to hear what is a person's interest in the matter. http://www.answers.com/topic/friend-of-the-court Friend of the Court A person who has a strong interest in a matter that is the subject of a lawsuit in which he or she is not a party. A friend of the court may be given permission by the court to file a written statement of his or her views on the subject, ostensibly to bolster the case of one party but even more to persuade the court to adopt the party's views. The Latin translation, amicus curiae, is used most often for a friend of the court; the written argument that he or she files may be called an amicus curiae brief. http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=690 Friend of the Court briefs are only given validity if they offer insight into the case that the Justices would have otherwise overlooked. Just a little note ... normally I would likely side, or at least sympathize, with Twelve Tribes on various legal issues (such as disciplining the children or home schooling, and often even support or custody). However this case is quite different, instigated by them, very strange as described, not passing the smell test. And with very serious consequences. Appreciate the efforts of those trying to unravel what is really going on. Shalom, Steven Avery http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
spike-are you going to go to court w/ JT today? | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 99 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
no, I can't unfortunately. There will be some representation from the folks out here in court. In the past they have not let us have much input. I don't even know if it will get that far (testimony that is). I think when the court sees the facts that kumakumali outlines, the case will go the same direction as it did in boston (the charges in hyannis are less than boston). A good point was made that the TT did misrepresent themselves in the beginning and the courts new very little of the structure of the community and what is expected of its members. As more and more is known the charges look different. | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 376 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
sounds like tt is sealing their own fate with this one. funny how karma has a way of working itself out. Maybe some ex-tt kids should show up to testify that this "assult" is normal in the tt, and see what happens. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
Yeah-I was spanking dc after only being there a month or so. FWIW-I never ever spanked a dc on the bottom-only on the palm of the hand. But still now I feel terrible. I was 21, impressionable, ignorant, lonely, depressed and decieved. I'm glad I only spent 5-6 months there and not YEARS. It has taken me TEN years to get over my exp in the TT and I was there for such a short time. My guess is that people who were raised there, or were in for years and years might never get over the damage done. | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.143.194 |
schmuel I thank you kindly for your insights into this matter and I will follow up on your suggestions. | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 587 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Most welcome Kuma. May the Lord Jesus give you wisdom and grace. May any chicanery be exposed, and any injustices in this matter be rectified. In Jesus name. Shalom, Steven Avery | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
kumakumali-do we know each other? you can email me at my3fireflies@yahoo.com | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
anyone hear anything about how it went today? | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.19.161.36 |
JT was found innocent in Hyannis today on all charges! He will now be moved to Vermont to answer to the charges there. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1032 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
was it a lack of evidence? i am really puzzled why the TT would put someone through something like this. so far it seems that they have little or no proof that he ever did anything. that is what the courts seem to think anyway. of course the courts can only go by what they have in front of them, it does'nt mean that nothing happened. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
Anyone knwo the exact nature of the crimes in VT? Are they as simple as the spanking charge mentioned above? Kumakumali-were you there? Did you get to see him? FOAK-The TT will set to DESTROY anyone in their way, by any means necc. They can and will rationalize ANYTHING that they do. They figure that the "world" is so corrupt that they can't and aren't worthy of the truth, so in saying/teaching that they justify being LIARS. That's one of the main reasons that they aren't upfront about their life when you meet them. They say that they are, but you have to be there for months and months before you can see all the corruption, lies, bizarre teachings, etc. There's a good possibility that JT is being used as an example-to keep others in line. There is so much "TT Folklore" floating around. Stories about people not being submissive to their husbands so God gave them cancer, or killed them in accidents etc. These stories fly around the TTs and people BELIEVE that they can never leave or HORRIBLE things will happen to them. Praise God, that I had enough sense to leave! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1034 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
i must say, they are somewahat surprised that i am still alive. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
My apologies! i didn't realize that you were once a brother. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 565 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.31 |
FOAK, I believe I know you! You must have lost your phobia of computers!!! | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
FOAK-I think I know you too, tho I doubt you would remember me. I was leaving, as you were entering. Glad to see that you were able to se thru their smoke screen. My guess is that you are very much like me-you wanted it to be true!!! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1038 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
what would the world look like if we were all concerned with someone elses needs instead of our own? what is it that we were meant to do in life if it isn't to meet the needs of one another? we all know it isn't possible. we can't live in peace with one another. there is to much greed that has gone unchecked. today our government says war is what will bring peace. some would say that we should just try and make the world a better place for our children, once we are gone it is over for us. others think that the kind of sacrifice we make for our children may also be good for the entire human race. if we could love everyone like a mother loves it's child then we could live in peace. the bible says that that ideal is reachable, and gives direction on how to achieve it. if we were to apply that direction it would mean sacrifice. who has the authority to proclaim a message like the gospel if they are not living it? the demonstration is a life. if this isn 't being demonstrated on the earth somewhere then the bible is not to be trusted. it says that there is always a remnant somewhere. if the bible is true then where is god's authority on the earth? i am uncertain if the TT represent that authority at this time, but i will continue to search to see if the words of the bible are true by searching for that life. it is not about heaven or hell, it is a desire to know if the ideal is reachable. to resign ourselves to just the time that we live on earth and pass on to our children an ideal such as peace on earth without a way to achieve it does not bring much hope. religion may offer a better solution. i think the journey is worth it. | ||
| nabashalam Advanced Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 567 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.36 |
foak! Excellent! | ||
| dream_truth Intermediate Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 408 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.174.226 |
Spike - Please email nabashalam and get my email. Do you mind naba?  I know a lawyer who might be able to help. | ||
| spike Member Username: spike Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
thanks DT-I will (have) Shannon and kumakumali-keep in touch, hope to see you guys around this summer! | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.170 |
A few details of the Hyannis case... Initially I was told that the case was "closed by the DA" and I took this to mean "dropped." As it turns out, the case went to jury trial and JT was found innocent on all counts. According to JT's lawyer, both the youth involved and JT testified. I don't know the details of the testimonies. As for the TT's motives for doing something so horrific to someone...I believe there are many. 1. Sometimes the best way to protect yourself from destruction is to damage the reputation the person who has the knowledge to bring you down. 2. To protect financial interests. The TT does not pay child support, as Shannon mentioned, as it becomes too expensive. They don't want to set a precedent. 3. Batach was going to be thrown in jail for failure to pay child support. (The Vermont charges were filed less than 1 month after she failed to appear in court in regard to these charges.) 4. The TT don't like to share custody and JT would not reliquish custody so they hope assault on a minor is a good way to assure that JT won't see his children again. 5. Fear is the ultimate tool used to control the masses. Look what will happen if you leave...if you entertain "sexual spirits." 6. Sometimes it is easier to blame others than to take responsibility for our own deficiencies. | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 591 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Just a little aside. A debate on the DaVinci Code nonsense is on the web tonite, for another hour or two. http://www.dts.edu/utility/davincidebateny/ or first go to http://www.davincidebateny.com/ Interesting group of speakers, especially Michael Brown (also speaking .. Darrell Bock and Shmuley Boteach) Shalom, Steven Avery http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1042 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.133.193 |
do you really have an interest in that schmuel? i think the antichrist will come from the gnostic tradition. i do have an interest from that perspective. gnsoticism is making a come back. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
kumakumali-that is encouraging-that the accusers testified-and the jury found him innocent. So what's left-just the VT charges right? Which commnuity is leveling the charges? Bellows Falls? Rutland? IP? Do you know the charges? Does it look good for JT? Now-if he is found innocent on all charges will he be allowed to get his children back? Does he still own his home-does he have a place to go to when he gets out? I agree completely with your theory on the TTs motives. The *only* reason I am glad I got tangled up with them is that it brought me to true salvation-once I got out. All that I went thru lit a spark in me and motivated me to seek the TRUTH. Took me 10 years to undo their screwey theology-but now I have true salvation! Let's keep lifting up JT, N, and Y in prayer. | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
charges in IP still lie ahead... I will consult with friends and family and then report back what I know about the allegations (I do want to be careful what I share so not to interfere with the judicial process, to protect the innocent, and to not pre-judge or create conflict of personal opinion). We are trying to take care of JT's house. I don't know how the custody issue will go-the TT do not share well and I think the judge will at least grant visitation to JT and/or his family if not shared custody (who knows Batach may give them up again if they can't have them totally to themselves or if they are forced to pay any child support) Yes, let's keep all in our prayers! peace, spike | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.158.64 |
thanks spike. I'm not looking for the gorey details-just wondering if the charges are likely to get dismissed, like they have in the other cases, KWIM? Like if the charges are just for basic TT-spanking-well it's unlikely that he would get a huge punishment. I'm glad you are taking care of his house. My dh has driven by a few times and always wondered if the house/animals were okay. | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 593 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Just a little addition to before. In New York it is actually rather easy to place a complaint against a lawyer. I was involved in writing one up on a minor civil case where there was some lawyer manipulation (ignoring court decrees, documents lacking, resubmitting a case, stuff like that). The bar review panel did a preliminary review to see if the complaint might have some merit (it did). Then they do their bureaucratic review, and they tend to be sympathetic to their compatriots. In this case they didn't take any disciplinary action, but the very fact of the complaint was on record, the lawyer was forced to respond to specific questions, and the action likely helped prevent any additional lawyer shenanigans. So the effort was worthwhile (and actually rather minimal). Granted, all this here is far more involved, because you are dealing with a criminal case, and actually cases in multiple states, and the delicate issue of apparently coached testimony. Also issues of inconsistency, history, motives. And coached testimony is a practice rather common among lawyers, so it becomes a matter of degree, and how much gets exposed. The multiple states simply throwing out the charges however, despite the TT effort, is rather telling. (Of course, we know more here, how TT takes a very different course if the problem is with someone still inside the community, where they try hard to avoid any state action). Let me reiterate that I would normally tend to sympathize with TT in their struggles with the state, but this series of cases on this thread, apparently having a custody/$ motive to actually inaugarate dubious multiple criminal cases, leaves a bit of a stench based on what has been heard so far (and I grant that is limited). Overall, this is a very different matter than the state acting too aggresively on what I would consider at most borderline complaints (e.g. the whole spanking/abuse issue, where there isn't the other component). Understand that I know very little about these cases. I do appreciate the efforts of the folks on this forum. Shalom, Steven Avery | ||
| stvnhyde Junior Member Username: stvnhyde Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.156.52.34 |
I think that some of the kids that claimed to have been molested by JT may have left the TT, and that initiated the proceedings by the TT; they may have felt it would look bad to have someone that was not part of them press charges for something that happened right under their noses. On the other hand, I doubt they would bring someone to court over an issue such as this without sufficient evidence; it is a bad publicity stunt for them however they go about it. That being said, I believe the TT enviroment is one that almost encourages pedophiles and such; it gives such people access to opportunites they would not have in any other enviroment. And for the most part, if that person is caught, they would rather send them away, than take them to court as that would make the TT look bad. I know enough about this case to assume that JT is guilty on at least several of the charges; I am by no means siding with the TT, there is no love lost between myself and them, but someone who takes advantage of kids who are trained to please adults, and do whatever they are told, should be punished to the full extent of the law. On the other hand, some of these incidents happened a while ago, and some of the kids may not remember exactly what happened. I'm not advocating coaching a witness, but if something really happened, and the perpetrator gets off scott free because the only evidence was testimony by a kid that was very young, and didn't really know what was going on, than something needs to be done to get a conviction. In my personal opinion, JT over stepped his bounds in the authority he was given as a teacher, and there should be some form of punishment for that. Dont think that he is innocent just because the TT is pressing charges; I guarantee that there is still people in there that are criminals seeking assylum; that is the perfect place. | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.31 |
stvnhyde, Thank you for sharing your knowledge...I would be interested in hearing in what way you feel JT overstepped his boundaries and how he took advantage of the children there especially since I have only heard one side. I do agree with you...I think it is absolutely ridiculous that the parents in the TT allow people that they hardly know care for, control and discipline their children. It leaves their children very vulnerable. I can also see how confusing it can be for a child who is raised in the community with certain values can misinterpret actions or behaviors of someone who coming from outside of the community and has different values. For example, one incident the arose with JT...A child was placed in his care for several days while his parents were away. Arrangements were made for the child to sleep on a mattress next to JT's bed in the single brothers' room. One night, the child became afraid and woke JT up. JT had the child crawl into bed with him and they both went back to sleep. Now, years later, the child recalls that his arm was "wet" and a parent suggests "Could it be semen?" JT was a father before he joined the TT. He shared a family bed with his children. He was very loving and affectionate with his children. His family left him and he remained in the TT but he suffered greatly, missed his own children dearly. To JT, to take a scared child he was caring for into bed with him in the middle of the night was instinctual not perverted. It was how he would have comforted his own children. To the TT, it was perhaps inappropriate. I agree with you in that if JT did take advantage of a child, he should be punished and he should get help for his sickness so that no other child suffers. At the same time, I could see how the TT could take this situation, mix it with their own beliefs about sexuality, their hatred of homosexuals and their fears and come up with a distorted picture. But perhaps I do not have the whole story... | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 103 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Dear Kumakumali, I think others here will support your implication that the TT do pervert/contort people's words and actions to further their own motivations. They often blame a member's "sexual spirit" (rebellious spirit, independent spirit etc...) for inticing abuse (or welcoming disease, or causing a terrible accident) upon themselves, like they are to blame. It is just one more manifestation of how they use shame and guilt to keep people in fear of leaving, (fear of dissent, fear of not being loved and accepted). Imagine a whole community of people that you have hinged your whole existence on, all of sudden shuning you, judging you for your "rebellion". That is the problem here...everything around this case must be tempered with what we know (and don't know) about the TT and how they approach these situations. Nothing can be taken at face value. Having a critical and skeptical mind is a good thing despite what they say. | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 559 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.121.36.112 |
spike, I just sent you an email, did you get it? | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
thank you, dreamtruth! | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
The shunning, the judging produces an extreme fear amongst the judgers, who are terrified that they will be next. Their judgements are not their own, but come down from the cult leaders.I would rather see Mr Spriggs in court than this person under discussion here who is another casualty of a sick and perverted mind. | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
When will the TT answer and pay (not necessarily money wise but spiritually as well) for the pain and suffering they have caused amongst their members, their families, and all others who have become entangled in the tragedies that they have created or been accomplice to (either through their outright lies or their lack of action against crimes in their midst)? St.Johnsbury is the place of the next and last court case against JT. Interestingly, this was where the first charges were filed though they were the slowest to move and the one place where the TT have any sort of public integrity-the people of Boston know 'the cult next door" very well and Hyannis surely knew what the Tribes were up to (especially if you had heard the remarks made by the judge and DA). There will be a hearing on June 28th. I do not know if they will allow the public in the court, but I hope to make an appearence there. Are there any others in the area that would be interested in attending? | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 379 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
Yes, they have created tragedies. As the bard said, "oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.' I would call the court house at St Johnsbury and ask if this is a public hearing. The case may be online, but if not, you could ask for a list of who will be present in terms of prosecution and defense, also who the judge is. Since you have much more insight into this situation than anyone who will make judgements, depending on your comfort level, you might write a letter to the editor of the local paper, briefly describing the case from your perspective. How brainwashing affects its victims and a short history of the cult. Other things you and others have mentioned re this subject that give insight. Cults never want local peole to know the unpublicised part of their history. please post what you find out if possible, thanks. | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 216.56.28.38 |
Hi Spike, Unfortunately, I cannot make it to the case in June...I am planning on attending the custody case in September however. Lookatall, thank you for your input...I have been trying to figure out a way to participate in the court process in June. I have been in touch with JT's lawyer and I am also looking into making some type of statement (Friends of the court?) I would encourage anyone who is interested and willing to share their own experience about the TT to get in touch with the court house or with JT's lawyer. I think putting some pressure on JT's lawyer is helpful. He has been very reluctant to move on this case...it has been open since January of 2005...almost 12 years after the alleged incident. The only reason he is moving on it now is because JT is in custody...his lawyer in Boston encouraged JT to remain incarcerated because it accelerates the judicial process...Vermont is now forced to act on the case within 60 days or 90 days or something like that hence the June 28th court date. Information is imperative in ensuring a fair trial. The Vermont court has a wealth of information from numerous TT members...they could get every adult member of the community to write a statement... Obtaining information and statements from previous members is very difficult...anyone who is willing to share their experience...I would encourage you to do so...you don't have to defend JT...just share your own knowledge about the community, their child rearing and brainwashing... Anyone interested can email me... quest4truth620@hotmail.com I am so grateful all of the knowledge, wisdom and support that has been shared here. | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Thank you kumakumali! You really expounded on the point I wanted to make by saying that this case, of all the cases, is different in the fact that the judge, prosector and DA in vermont are elected officials as well as the fact that the IP community has alot of pull in that area. While the public in the more populated areas have been exposed to the TT and have read numerous articles on their dealings, the more isolated communities in the northeast kingdom have only seen one side of the TT-their public persona. And those of us who have been close to them know that their outward appearences may seem fine and dandy, if not outright rightous, but if you look beyond the smoke and mirrors you can see the dirty underbelly that comes hand in hand with corruption when humans try to govern other humans. I am afraid that the truth may not be brought to light if the TT continue their legal shenanigans (that they get away with more easily in a state that really respects an individual's-and group's- right to freedom of religion). Now don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I appreciate the state's that have fought to maintain local control. My fear is that they are having the wool pulled over their eyes (to use yet another cliche) and will not be open to other viewpoints. | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 380 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
Vermont Family Court Mediation Program Information About Mediation VFCMP Statewide Mediator Listings Information About Parent Coordination Mediation for Vermont Families with Children for issues of separation divorce parentage civil union dissolution post-divorce & blended families Susan Fay, Director Court Administrator's Office 111 State St Montpelier, Vermont 05609 802-951-4049 or 1-800- 622-6359 vfcmp@mail.crt.state.vt.us There is a long list of mediators, with telephone contact numbers.. I think that if you cannot get help from this central number, call a few of the mediators. Also call the local supermarket and ask the person who answers the phone if they know the 12 tribes as you are looking for someone. Call the movie theatre and the car mechanics. calling local people is an invaluable way to find out what local people think. dial *67 first. | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 381 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
https://secure.vermont.gov/vtcdas/user vermont courts online you have to register, think its free | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 141.154.163.109 |
$12.50 activation fee w/ 5 free docket lookups, and 50 cents for ea. additional look up after that. Youn need a credit card. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 141.154.163.109 |
do you think of you gave a statement re: brainwashing in the TT you would be called as a witness? I watch too much Law and order.(rolleyes) I will have to pray about whether nor not I should be involving myself. Spike I might be able to go...lemme talk to my dh about it. | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 384 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
Does friends of the court, (amicus curiae) require approval from both the prosecutor and defender? I think if possible this would be the only way for professionals who had never experienced brainwashing to understand it, if former members make statements about how this situation may have come about.. You may contact the attorney who wrote "Girl in a box" to find out how she proved co ersive persuasion in court in California,, whereas that argument failed for Patty Hearst. If i were you I would also examine the TT literature closely, especially if you have things from years ago. I would try to find arguments using written statements by Mr Spriggs. You could also interview former members, and extract stuff from the archives of fact net, which are very telling, You dont even have to read between the lines, it is out there. And i agree with Dream Truth that the most awful thing is not to be believed. | ||
| mfer4 New member Username: mfer4 Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 69.246.129.195 |
The TT encourage using the "rod" to break the will of the child. | ||
| shannon Junior Member Username: shannon Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 141.154.161.134 |
did anyone hear what, if anything, happened on the 28th? | ||
| kch New member Username: kch Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 64.222.121.141 |
There is a motion to dismiss pending for some of the counts. The motion has not been heard yet. There is also a motion pending regarding his bail. There is a hearing set for 7/7, although I am not sure which motion it deals with - it could deal with one or both. His attorney is very competent. | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 647 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Thanks, Kch. Some thoughts, from an outsider. I doubt that a judge would hold back a bail motion hearing very long. They get top priority (Guantanamo being an exception). Expect at least that to be covered, very possibly more. The fact of the hearing being only 9 days after the last court date is a good sign of a judge who doesn't want to fiddle around. btw, lookitall, amicus curiae does not require approval from either the prosecutor and defender. It is a brief directly to the judge, it may not even favor one side or another, although it usually does. However if the judge does not see it as substantive, or if he views it as polemic, or only as a prosecutor or defense lawyer's dubious end-run around court limitations/procedures, then it may be of no assistance. So it is important for any amicus curiae brief to really be well-documented, touch substantive issues, brief and readable as possible, and the subject matter needs to be something that the judge can really understand why and how the brief is coming to him in that manner. Who is giving me this .. and why ? So in this case it could, conceivably, be very helpful. btw .. some things would be interesting to know if the Vermont judge is aware of .. such as the multi-scattershot approach of Twelve Tribes in raising the same accusations in multiple scattered locations, with their being dismissed everywhere else .. also the Twelve Tribes history for normally keeping these issues as far away from the courts as possible, if the subject is still in their good graces ... also the possible financial motivations. Some of these however, espcially the last, could easily be more an aspect to be raised by the lawyer for the defendant. So hopefully he would be open to a little consultation so as to be sure that any amicus curiae efforts do not actually hinder, or unnecessarily duplicate and possibly confuse, his efforts. Oh, none of this is based on any legal expertise on my part, more simply by reading up and common sense. So take it all only as preliminary consideration, able to be corrected by those more in the know. Shalom, Schmuel | ||
| lookatall Intermediate Member Username: lookatall Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.114.115.115 |
Re:amicus curiae, thanks, very helpful. Do you know if the information has to be officially submitted to the judge, or can it be sent by anyone with provable facts related to the case? (privately in other words) "btw .. some things would be interesting to know if the Vermont judge is aware of .. such as the multi-scattershot approach of Twelve Tribes in raising the same accusations in multiple scattered locations, with their being dismissed everywhere else ." It always strikes me as amazing how quickly people forget things, even things that may have been well documented. The 2 biggest allies for a long term survival of cults that have a public record of bad behaviour are TIME and CHANGE OF LOCATION. They count on it! | ||
| schmuel Advanced Member Username: schmuel Post Number: 648 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Lookatall, This url below is a good summary. Keep in mind that the formality and depth of preparation mentioned here may be lessened for a local case like this one. The judge would probably be surprised to receive an amicus brief. The writer does mention conferring with the lawyer to whom you are sympathetic. http://www.rbs2.com/amicus.htm Use of an Amicus Brief Websites like www.nolo.com and www.lawguru.com could be of assistance. Also groups like HALT!. www.halt.org Sometimes the difficulty of doing such legal stuff is overstated, although it definitely takes some time and skill to do it properly and effectively. In the Theresa Schindler cases, one fellow (Gordon Wayne Watts) got the closest of all the motions that would likely have saved Theresa from the dehydration murder. Gordon lost 3-4 on a motion, before the Florida Supreme Court, that he prepared himself, without any professional legal background. And that was an actual motion, not an amicus curiae, that he simply studied the issues and law carefully, and put in himself. I don't remember offhand how he had 'standing'.. but the motion was received and ruled upon, and missed by one vote. Shalom, Schmuel (Message edited by schmuel on July 03, 2006) | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.226.148.178 |
I want to thank you all for your input. I have been in touch with JT's lawyer about all the issues/ideas discussed here although my energies as of late have been in helping with custody stuff for his boys. The 7/7 court date is for both dismissal and bail. I will update you all when I know what is happening. | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 112 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
I was there. Essex County Courthouse is a very tiny, old, colonial building in a very small town in the Northeast kingdom. All the officials were very nice and professional. The Judge seems fair and wants to get this case going. They discussed jury selection for July 21st but may be postponed till the next pool. The prosecuting attorney talked about needing time after the selection of the jury and selection of trial start date (should last 3-4 days) to get his case in order-he spoke of needing to arrange for out-of-state transport and accomadations for 2 of the witnesses (neither are a part of "the church"-the courts words exactly- anymore-one is out on the west coast on an avocado farm and the other is coming from jersey or somewhere like that). There was also a brief discussion of the social climate for this case and if it would effect jury selection (they talked about how public opinion of "the church" has changed over the past twenty years). Seems as if the case will be heard towards the end of august/beginning of september. | ||
| ex_yathed Senior Member Username: ex_yathed Post Number: 1627 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.226.162.216 |
Hey Spike! Morning Star Ranch, Vistas sister community, IS A AVOCADO FARM!!!! Beware!!!! | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 113 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
Thanks for the info. I was just reporting what I heard the prosecuter say in the courtroom-his impression was that they were hard to get a hold of and that it would be difficult to arrange their appearences in court. It actually made me wonder if they would get those testimonies in court. It seems like the momentum has been lost. Those intial allegations/affadavits were the hardest hit but they have had little to nothing to back it up. p.s. Its good to hear from you David. I've been away on vacation and missed all of you. The conversations here are so stimulating, I actually look forward to being back online! | ||
| ex_yathed Senior Member Username: ex_yathed Post Number: 1628 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.226.162.216 |
Welcome back! So if a bearded avocado farmer shows up in court with a sort cropped pony tail, you'll know something aint kosher! LOL! | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 199.197.125.244 |
This is an interesting article on the TT, particularly since it was printed shortly after the charges against JT started to surface...nothing like a little publicity... Anyway, it directly speaks of the "Avocado Farm" in California that the TT purchased for 1.3 million dollars in 2003. But from my understanding, they would not actually consider themselves a "church" and therefore not be technically "lying?" I will pass this info on... http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/10/23/the_doomsday_prophets_on_main_street/ or here is the Rick Ross version: http://www.rickross.com/groups/tribes.html | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 199.197.125.244 |
This is an interesting article on the TT, particularly since it was printed shortly after the charges against JT started to surface...nothing like a little publicity... Anyway, it directly speaks of the "Avocado Farm" in California that the TT purchased for 1.3 million dollars in 2003. But from my understanding, they would not actually consider themselves a "church" and therefore not be technically "lying?" I will pass this info on... http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/10/23/the_doomsday_prophets_on_main_street/ or here is the Rick Ross version: http://www.rickross.com/groups/tribes.html | ||
| shannon Member Username: shannon Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 151.203.149.58 |
is the whole JT thing finally over? | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
the case in IP is coming up real soon | ||
| kch New member Username: kch Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 159.105.38.86 |
I don't see anything set in September: http://www.state.vt.us/courts/court_cal/exd_cal.htm | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.165 |
At the last statis conference, I believe the case was postponed until the next jury draw (end of Sept. or early Oct.) so it should be coming up within the next month or so. No definitive date was set but court dates are updated daily. There was a custody hearing last week. The next one is set for Dec so hopefully the Vermont case will be resolved by then. | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.165 |
At the last statis conference, I believe the case was postponed until the next jury draw (end of Sept. or early Oct.) so it should be coming up within the next month or so. No definitive date was set but court dates are updated daily. There was a custody hearing last week. The next one is set for Dec so hopefully the Vermont case will be resolved by then. | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.58 |
Just a little update on JT's case:There was a status conference earlier this month. The case will be moving either to trial or dismissal after the judge reviews the evidence. The community is currently stalling, again, however, by failing to submit the requested depositions. They pulled a similar tactic in Mass. Fortunately, because JT has been incarcerated for 6 months he can motion for a speedy trial. I can hardly believe that we are pushing two years on this case...I hope and pray that this will be over soon...before the December custody hearing. | ||
| shannon Member Username: shannon Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 70.109.230.40 |
so where is he being held? | ||
| spike Intermediate Member Username: spike Post Number: 118 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.89.73.189 |
shannon I emailed you at your yahoo address you can email me through my yahoo addy as well hope you get my message peace spike | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 64.33.183.4 |
FYI: JT's trial date in Vermont has been set for Feb. 20-23. Please pray that truth and justice prevail. peace | ||
| kumakumali New member Username: kumakumali Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 69.179.110.223 |
I just want to keep this court case on everyone's radar--from my experience, it is a very real side of the TT that we don't often see.... Anyway, JT was suppose to go to trial on Feb. 20. Unfortunately, 2 weeks prior to the date, his lawyer withdrew from the case after being diagnosed with a rapidly spreading cancer. Major Bummer! He has been reassigned a new lawyer but it looks like it won't go to trial now until June or even August. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1657 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 |
truthseeker! Read this whole thread so you can get up to speed!!! I wanted to bring this thread back to the top so all those who dont know the WHOLE story (truthseeker) and are feeding off just the recent press releases. After realizing how many years the TT waited to file charges,(just so happened they did this when they saw that they might have to pay support)you should get a different picture! IMHO It is so apparent that this is all about the TT being able to keep the children and not being liable for child support. |
