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Anonymous (24.210.65.90)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 7:57 am: | 
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Can anyone share their views and expereinces of the Vinyard church? |
Anton (62.194.110.245)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 9:30 am: |
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Until about 1994, I was involved - for about 11 years - in Vineyard lay leadership. I eventually left the Vineyard after it became apparent that (at the time) our specific church, as well as the movement as a whole was in much theological trouble.
Mind you, my perspective was and is that of an evangelical Christian
In short (and leaving out lots of stuff), things went downhill when the Vineyard got involved with what was then known as the Kansas City Fellowship. That church produced a number of so-called 'prophets,' who turned out to be false ones. You can read about them in Bill Randles's online book Weighed and Found Wanting. Eventually, the whole thing resulted in the so-called 'Toronto Blessing' - a theological mess.
Though the late John Wimber, founder of the Vineyard Movement, was ultimate to a large extend responsible for many of the Vineyard's excesses, it is to his credit that he basically told the Toronto Vineyard to toe the line or be removed from the movement.
Currently, the Vineyard is much as it has always been - a mixed bag. You can visit 10 or 20 Vineyards and encounter vastly different levels of spiritual maturity, doctrinal soundness, and Biblical practices.
Christians involved with - or contemplating getting involved with - a Vineayrd (or, for that matter, any other church) should use discernment in evaluating the church's teachings and practices.
As always, forewarned is forearmed, so check these sites for details about so-called 'renewal and revival' movements and various teachings that have been going through churches over the past few years:
Deception in the Church
Cross+Word
Our site, Apologetics Index also addresses many of these issues.
Regards,
Anton
--
Anton and Janet Hein-Hudson
Apologetics Index
Research resources on religions, cults, sects, doctrines, and related issues:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com (News and news archives)
http://www.apologeticsindex.org (Other research resources) |
RICK (216.183.185.87)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 11:07 am: |
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GET OUT, AND QUICK |
anonymus (68.119.47.6)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 9:46 am: |
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i have heard a lot about it but have never ben to one |
Rebecca (208.10.193.86)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 11:53 pm: |
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I went to a class taught by one of the lay men there on Healing. I got there by default as I was invited by a cousin who had heard about it but did not really know what it was about. We find ourselves in this class of many, many people. My cousin and I were raised and are still apart of the Baptist Church. I myself have over the years been to many different kinds of churchs, including a sister church to the one that Hobart Freeman founded in Indiana.
I have heard some bad things about the Vineyard Churches, but have since heard they have done some turn around. I do not know any of these things, good or bad first hand.
What I do know is limited to that class we ended up in just a week ago. I cannot say there was any thing out of line there and I pretty much agreed with what the teacher said.
I guess in that respect, people should just go and see for themselves. To test the spirits and the bible says, to see if they be true. In any situation, it is always best to go in with discernment. |
jason dunbar (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 8:48 am: |
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I am a member of the Vineyard Church of columbus. (ohio) I have to say that i love it here. There is a place for anyone. I go to the college ministry called Joshua House. It is like 500-800 college kids, young proffesionals, and a few older people. Community is a huge emphasis here. Small groups are also very important, cause that's a way to get "plugged in" to the body. It is a great thing. I lead a group here on my campus.
We do several outreaches a month to the vastly diverse communities in Columbus. We try to always show Gods love. to many that may have been burnt by others in the name of "God." People from the gay community, the homeless, gang members, and others have been touched by Gods Love, and we are still hungry for more.
I am a very careful person when it comes to spiritual error. I hate it. I refuse to be a part of it. I totallt trust that what i am being taught here is pure truth, and not in any way subjected to error. I also believe that Jesus is the very head of the Vineyard, and there IS accountability for those who may stray from sound Biblical teachings in the Vineyard movement.
I would encourage you to definately check the spirit, and make sure it's Biblically sound. No matter where you go, make sure they're exalting Jesus Christ as Lord!!!!
word!! |
Anonymous (69.242.21.100)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 10:18 am: |
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vineyard is a good spirit filled church , i wish they had one in my area. |
Anonymous (172.143.255.52)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:09 pm: |
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Jason, it all sounded good until you used the phrase " I totallt trust that what I am being taught here is pure truth, and not in any way subjected to error." All I can suggest to you is to never, NEVER, put total trust in man. On Earth there is only one place where you can be taught the pure truth. And that is through the Holy Spirit. Not talking to you through a man or woman. We all sin and fall short of God's glory. But only through the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you. Only through the Holy Spirit helping us with discernment may we be able to filter some truth from another human being. If you are being taught to believe what you wrote, then maybe you are in a cult. The only pure man whoever lived is Jesus Christ. |
Anonymous (205.188.117.20)
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 8:59 pm: |
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The Vineyard is not a cult and I don't think that Jason meant it the way you read it. I was a member of a Vineyard church until I moved. I think that he meant, like I felt, that he trusts he was being taught pure truth because they teach straight from the Bible. It is not about man but all about Jesus. I think that is also why he said it is not subjected to error. I think he meant the Bible is free from error. The Bible is total truth. The Vineyard teaches that no human is free from error. |
Anonymous (172.209.162.172)
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 9:54 pm: |
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Man teaching another man the bible will put his own spin on scripture based on his own walk with God, his past experiences, and his own motives, pure and unpure. What church does not teach straight from the bible? Nothing special there. Being told that you are being taught the pure gospel is like saying "go back to sleep sheep". Man should always keep his radar of discernment up and check everything with his own heart. That is the beginning of a cult, when church members think they are doing something that no other church is doing. Beware. We have a vineyard church locally and from what I've heard from a member, it sounds cultic. |
Anonymous (205.188.117.20)
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 6:24 pm: |
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Well, I'm sure you won't judge a church that you haven't visited. The Vineyard Church is not a cult. It is grounded on the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for our salvation. God DOES call men forward to teach the gospel. There is no problem with them relating their own experiences. After all they are human. You are right, the Holy Spirit does give us discernment. The Vineyard Church is not a cult. |
Anonymous (69.242.21.100)
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:04 pm: |
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Vineyard worship cds are good too |
Anonymous (172.208.15.8)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 12:29 am: |
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Christian churches as a whole are grounded on the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for our salvation. One infestation in the body of Christ is the attitude that "My church is better than your church". Or "I'm holier than thou". I'm trying not to cast stones. But this factnet forum was created to share information and warn about cults. And when I read people brag about their church as if it is the only true church a red flag goes up. Be vigilant! |
Debby (64.12.117.20)
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:12 am: |
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If it is the Vineyard with the popular CD's, you need to do some reading. They are cultish.
http://www.letusreason.org/Pent18.htm |
jason dunbar (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 4:14 pm: |
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hey guys,...jason here.
ummm,....i didn't mean to start a ruckus. I mean,.... What I meant by the "total truth" comment is that what i am being taught is totally and straight up the Word. Rich (the pastor) is really careful to make sure of it. Plus, he isn't some mindless twit who isn't accountable for what he teaches. Not only is he accountable to God,...but also to the congregration, and also the rest of the associtaion of Vineyard churches. Accountability is a huge thing there.
Cults do not allow you to question anything (i heard),...and I just want to really represent well.
I do not think "My church is better than your church". Or "I'm holier than thou". There are tons of awesome churches in C-bus. The only claim to supremacy i have,..is that my God is supreme and above all other gods (lower case g)!!
come on somebody.!!
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are encouraged and welcome in our services, along with balanced Biblical teaching. There's a invitation each week for salvation.Peeps are getting saved weekly.
It's a good place .
y'all, i am not trying to prop up just my church, but at the same time, i just don't want peeps to have a wrong idea either.
ya know what i mean??
The best-est thing i have experienced is that it is a safe place. You won't be judged if you look different. You will be loved, and challenged to allow God to set you free. It is also relevant to my generation. It's not all old and boring, and it still feeds me. I have been a follower of Jesus for like 13 years. I feel totally comfortable here (as far as the doctrine),...just wanted to fill y'all in. |
Anonymous (69.242.21.100)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 6:44 pm: |
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we need a Vineyard church here in Delaware |
Anonymous (172.142.157.180)
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 8:55 pm: |
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Jason, have you read the above "Let us Reason" link. If not, do. If you have, please respond. I would like your take on it. Thanks. |
jason dunbar (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:49 am: |
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i just read it.
I think whoever wrote that article is obviously concerned about seeing truth in churches. I mean, i dont disagree with anything at all as far as the doctrinal things he said. I think his histoey is a little off though maybe? I could be wrong. I thinlk he's talking about the whole Toronto airport thingy like 10 years ago,...or so.
I remember asking my pastor about that, amnd he told me that the asssociation of Vineyard churches (which is sort of like it's denomination, but not really a denomination...)asked Arnott torelax on the whole animal manifestation tip. I don't know 1st hand, but from waht i can remeber being told, they were not willing to do that, and so the Vyard assc. asked them to drop the Vineyard name from toronto airport vineyard, and they did. If i can recall correctly,lots of people were going up there to experience the Spirit. I think that they eventually stopped experiencing those types of moves, and it moved on.
I just thought as i was reading the article, it was maybe based on one experience at a Vineyard that was meaning well,...but got out of control. I vcan't speak to the fruits of that ministry, i have no idea.
I do know that they are no longer associated w/ V-yard.
I also know in my church, there is a lot of order to ministry time, and it ALWAYS follows the word.
again. Jesus is the focus of it all, and not a man or woman.
manisfestations , when they do happen, are kept quiet, and if there's like a deliverance, we'll take them to another room and pray with them, so it won't be disruptive. Also, when we pray for individuals in ministry time, we are trained 1st of all how to minister. The 1st thing they tell us to do is to ask the Lord to come and fall on the person, then, we wait. Tounges is kept at a minimum, and is not stressed over any other gift.
There just seems to be lots of balance and order to it all.
I think that's what the toronto thing lacked, and they weren't willing to correct it.God's power is real, and He does move, and does touch His people in real ways, and it's not just in my church.
God is whereever He's welcomed. ( 4 the person who thought i was trying to prop up my church as something special. Not my heart bro!!) |
Anonymous (172.201.78.137)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 9:44 am: |
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Let me make this clear. The church is the body of christ. The church is not contained in one building or demonation. You are the church if You are Within the body of Christ.
How do you become part of the body, By believing the written word and the FINISHED works of Christ.
I put that site on this board because the Vineyard churches and Word of Faith movement is one of the biggest decievers to the believers and their purpose is to fool those that believe Christ. The bible says Heresy will come.
I don't know how much studying you do, but I would encourage each believer to study. Not just read the bible or listen to the pastor, but study. When you study and becomes wise in the knowledge and gain wisdom FROM God and HIS WORD, then the elect and those called will not be decieved.
http://www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/mind-control1.htm
http://www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/mind-control3.htm |
jason dunbar (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 7:51 pm: |
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ok.
bro, your obviously convinced that your right, and i have tried to asure you there's a misunderstanding. I think you maybe have a pre-concieved notion of Vineyard, and you have info. from other people, but i am not sure you've been willing to hear what i've been trying to tell you.
Every facet of a Bible believing, Jesus honoring, God fearing church is available and obvious at
V-yard.
I also think that misinformation has stigmatized you.
I want to encourage you to try this info to maybe help you know what beliefs and values the v-yard holds.
http://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/about/what_we_believe/index.asp
also try http://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/about/what_we_believe/priorities.asp
i think you'll understand that at least my experience w/ V-yard has Biblical values, and tends to every creed of traditional christianity.
I have tried toexplain to you how we do ministry time, and also tht there is a tremendous balance in each gift.
also, i am not sure by your last post if you sre confusing V-yard with the "faith movement", their not at all related and in no way co-exist.
so, check these out, and lemme know what ya think.
holla back |
Anonymous (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 10:55 am: |
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HERE ARE A FEW MORE SITES FORM vINEYARD SITE.
http://www.vineyardusa.org/publications/position_papers/position_papers.htm
They are like answers to many of the criticisms some have of John Wimber and V-yard.
so ch-ch-che-check it out!!!
|
Anonymous (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:00 am: |
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http://www.vineyardusa.org/publications/position_papers/chaos2.htm |
Anonymous (172.162.82.228)
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:56 pm: |
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I agree with the tenets of the vineyard website. So would any Christian. That is basic Christianity. Vineyard tries to make it sound like only vineyard believes these things and no other church does. Wrong. Question is does vineyard uses brainwashing tactics on it's members? |
jason (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 2:00 am: |
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i dont know bro
i have never felt or heard that they're saying they're the only ones.
ever!
The only brainwashing i have ever recieved is the washing of my mind by the water of the word.
I am a member.
let's just accept an impasse, because i think that while your points are well intended,..i also feel like my counterpints are valid as well.
i have aeace about my pastor, my church, and most important,...my my faith in Jesus.
i guess thats enough. I'll never have it all fig'd out,...so i just trust that God is leading me , and the H. S. is guiding me into truth.
I also trust that if there's a spirit of error,..i will know it by it's conflict with the Word,....and it's fruit.
I just do not have that at V-yard.
i am sorry if maybe you did, and thus the reason your so vs, it.
I know God is so in it,...and he meets me everytime.
thats enough for me.
Truth is enough for me.
cool??? |
Anonymous (149.174.164.83)
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 5:30 am: |
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If you agree with the tenents, I would suggest you study the tenents of the early church. The tenents of vineyard and the early church are not the same.
Don't get upset at the suggestion. Word of faith and charismatic churches go alot on "what I feel". I suggest reading the bible, studying the bible and the early church, and compare it to those things that you are being taught at your church. Do not go on your feelings because we are both flesh and spiritual and the flesh likes to follow the flesh. |
Anonymous (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 1:02 am: |
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... |
Anonymous (64.12.117.20)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 3:27 pm: |
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Jason, The Vineyard is not a cult at all. We only left our church because we moved out of the area. I still keep in touch with many there, but during our time at the church we never found anything cultish. This isn't to say it can't happen if cultish leaders happen to get ahold of a particular church. It can happen anywhere, as satan would love to tear down the church. As a general rule, however, I found the Vineyard church to be sound, biblical, and very spirit filled.
God Bless you friend. |
jason (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:13 pm: |
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thank you. |
Anonymous (172.161.255.249)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:43 pm: |
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Do you believe that your vineyard ministers are apostles, prophets, annointed or saints? |
jason (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 12:41 am: |
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They're just people like you and i. There's nothing "special" about a Vineyard pastor, short of just specific training and eduction. I do not think they are people with "special anointings" or some sort of prophetic sages.
They are called, just as everyone else is. Jesus said many are, but few are chosen. I don't attribute any more credence to a Vineyard pastors words than a Baptist ministers words. As long as their in line with the Bible, they are worth "eating".
So, do i believe thay are ministers,...yes
apostles?,...some who start works in new areas in the world.
anointed,...in what?? That ? is quite open,and subject to a myriad of answers. I'll say i belive that my pastor,...Rich Nathan, is an anointed teacher. He brings the Bible down in such a practical and powerful way.
Saints,...I know people who are so sold out to Jesus in every denomination,...not just V-yard. We are called to be saints, and we are called to Holiness,...so i know we are ALL trying to ve saints.
I don't quite comprehend the ?,...but i hope that answers it.
thanks\ |
Anonymous (64.12.117.20)
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 3:26 pm: |
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Amen Jason! |
jason (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 6:22 pm: |
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thanks |
Anonymous (172.144.73.115)
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 10:14 pm: |
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That is your take on your pastor. I do not know him. I can not affirm or deny that he is "annointed", But actually only God knows his heart, not man. |
jason (205.133.96.228)
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:51 pm: |
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ok |
SquirleyWurley (141.157.13.94)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 2:42 am: |
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Heretic here, old-school gnostic, in fact...
Just wanted to say, in my view, I am not bothered by churches that treat members with respect, and that don't try to be very controlling/meddling in minor affairs with membership, that aren't authoritarian.
On that level, a group either has sick group dynamics, has manipulation and leadership abuses, or it does not.
The excesses of shepherding/discipling involve people lording over others, which Jesus spoke against very clearly... although some would point to other passages to try to rationalize authoritarianism and controlling authority...
Although I think it is interesting what the bounds of 'othodox' Christian belief is, regarding Charismatic churches, I am more interested in how people treat each other in churches. A cult in the sociological sense (and this site isn't about heresy but about sick group dynamics in the sociological sense, isn't it?)... is what I'm bothered by.
How people respect or disrespect, harass, humiliate, belittle, or disregard, people of other beliefs (including heretics), is also a concern of mine. Theocracy is cultic, sociologically, for example, no matter how orthodox.
-- Peace. |
holden (holden)
New member
Username: holden
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 165.138.213.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:02 pm: |
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I have been to a vineyard a few times and my assessment is "cult." At least the one I have attended. It has an unusual amount of "desperate" people. Cults to do prey (or should I say pray) on these types of people. Let's face it, people that get involved in cults don't recognize they are being sublimated. After visiting a Vineyard I always left with nervous anxiety. This particular church gives me the heebie jeebies! |
wheeler (wheeler)
New member
Username: wheeler
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 216.241.129.179
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 3:13 pm: |
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I attend a Vineyard church and I find it to be a sweet relief from a church I was raised in that really had a cultish feel to it. I have attended several churches in my life and I don't find the Vineyard church to be a cult any more than any other( besides the one I was raised in ). I have a lot of friends who are a part of other churches and I don't feel my beliefs are different than theirs. We may not agree on every little thing but I know we agree on the important things like Jesus died for me and you and if we accept Him into our hearts and try to live our lives for Him and are following God, every thing will follow. I know a lot of differnt people believe a lot of different things, but I think if they agree that Jesus paid for our sins on the cross as God's Son and thru that we are saved, they are my brother or sister in Christ, no matter what church they go to. I don't think there is one church that is more right than the rest (although there may be some that are not following God's Word). I think it's cool that there are all different types of churches with different styles. I think it makes it easy to find a church that fits your style. I think we must be doing something right if we are being unfairly judged and attacked though. |
yahshua (yahshua)
New member
Username: yahshua
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 207.44.154.35
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 12:22 am: |
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The Vineyard is just one more church that denies what I clearly said; that no one can be my disciple who does not forsake all for me, as I forsook all for them. Heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Luke 14:25 ¶ Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them,
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it—
Luke 14:29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
Luke 14:30 saying, “This man began to build and was not able to finish.’
Luke 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?
Luke 14:32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.
Luke 14:33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:34 ¶ “Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned?
Luke 14:35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
If my words strike fire in your heart, know there are true servants of mine on the earth, with whom these words can be acted on and lived out. Seek them out! My words, rightly divided, with my very life behind them, can only be found at www.TheLitmusTest.org |
doug (doug)
Intermediate Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 247
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 141.153.134.232
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 9:50 pm: |
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RE: The above post by DAVID ALAXANDER
This is a teaching from the communities Apostle "Yoneq", otherwise known as Eugene Elbert Spriggs, that "YAHSHUA" (and David Alaxander in othe places) in his above post is prosletising for.
For more info see "Twelve Tribes" on this web site.
Execution of Justice
(Letter from Elbert concerning discipline and the seed of Abraham)
The reason Isaac was so willing to let his father sacrifice him was because he had
been raised his whole life knowing that he did not belong to himself, but belonged to his
father, and he was not living for himself, but living for his father. Hephzibah is coming to
understand that she is living for her father and belongs to him. The other day she was
having great difficulty being obedient to his command: not to suck her thumb in bed.
Elbert asked her to stick out her thumb because he was going to cut it off. He took a
huge pair of scissors and came toward her. She was terrified, but (after receiving her
discipline) she willingly stuck out her thumb to be cut off rather than let it cause her to
stumble in her obedience to her father. Elbert didn’t actually cut it off, but he wants
Hephzibah to understand that it is better to have your hand cut off now rather than later.
He wants her to be saved.
It is absolutely necessary to raise our children to know that they do not belong to
themselves, but to their father. How else can they believe that they don’t belong to
themselves except by training them as our Heavenly Father trains us to believe this. We
only “regain our true life” if we lose our false and criminal life. Whoever wants to save
Execution of Justice Page 6
1900.00.16-L01.DOC 020612.1326
his life will lose it, and whoever loses it for My sake shall find it. Abraham received back
the promise only after he had killed his only son the only son who could bring about the
promise. Abraham had faith to surrender his only heir. Abraham was tested. He endured
under trial to see whether he would obey (Heb 11:17-19; Gen 22:1; Jms 1:12). Abraham
obeyed by faith for he heard God say, “Abraham, take your son, your only son Isaac,
whom you love, and go sacrifice him.”
The error of “the local church” and many churches is in allowing doctrine to
substitute for obedience. We can do as they say, but not as they do, for they do not truly
discern the Body of Messiah though they have much wonderful doctrine. Without seeing
Gen 18:19, the Body of Messiah doesn’t make sense.
Note: Elbert is not the little girls father but is the apostle of the community. I don't see a close resemblance to his lying to a little girl and teaching the faith that Abraham had in Isaac.
David responded on Dec 21
I don't know anything about the above...but I DO KNOW that the truth that sets men free can be found at www.TheLitmusTest.org
It is for Christians Only. Truth will always be attacked. Those who are wise will not be put off by such things. The fact is, anyone who wants to see the fruit of our lives can visit us at anytime; and see that our children are some of the most wonderful on the whole earth. As the Word says, "wisdom is justified by her children". Sincerely, david
My reply Dec 22
David
I don't know anything about the above…
Are you saying you don't know if Spriggs taught that and if it is one of the communities teachings or you don't know if there is anything wrong with what was alleged in the teaching CD that Jacob took from the community?
"Yahshua"
Was your apostle speaking from the holy spirit when he threatened with a large pair of scissors to cut off the terrified little girls thumb and did lying to her to scare her teach her the faith of Isaac with Abraham? Is that why Isaac trusted his father? Because someone terrified him with a lie? |
wheeler (wheeler)
New member
Username: wheeler
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 216.241.130.94
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 6:25 pm: |
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Speaking of something sounding cultish...
...jk
(Message edited by wheeler on December 28, 2004) |
hockley (hockley)
New member
Username: hockley
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 142.59.122.173
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:57 am: |
|
I've been to Vineyard in Calgary and Red Deer (Alberta, Canada) and have found them great. People seeking after God, worshipping and fellowshipping... Has the Vinyard had its glitches along the way - Yes, as have other churches (remember Martin Luther?). Cultish? Brainwashing? Haven't seen it. Everyone is free to choose for him / herself, stay or leave... I grew up in the church (not Vineyard) but was drawn to the Vineyard during a personal desert time - and I also liked the music. I have made some wonderful friends there and have a great affection for the "ministry heart" I have seen. But more importantly, what is of concern to me is my relationship to Christ and my response to Him. Blessings to each of you as you seek understanding.
(Message edited by hockley on May 06, 2005) |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Intermediate Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 194
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.183.33.235
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:07 pm: |
|
BEWARE!!! and be aware!
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Intermediate Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 176
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.183.33.235
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:12 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just saw on another page of the Religious Cults and Sects page that David Alexander(aka Daveed Derush) is evangelizing (recruiting) all over this web site with links to their newest "Free Papers"(Litmus Test). Its from a computer in Georgia so he is either at their Savannah or Brunswick community.
So, if you dont know, the Twelve Tribes are considered a high control destructive fundamentalist group (cult) by countless professionals and Cult experts. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Intermediate Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 253
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.183.33.235
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 7:24 pm: |
|
As you can see, David Derush has taken my warnings to all the boards as a chance to recruit for his cult which claims they are the Only Ones and the Only Way and if your not with them, your going to the Lake of Fire for eternity or to the first death to pay for your own sins if you can. They are just like the rest of the cults on the factnet boards.
To see both sides of the story go to
http://www.twelvetribes-ex.org/
or if you wish, you can contact me personally at exyathed@yahoo.com |
doug (doug)
Intermediate Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 449
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 138.89.113.180
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 8:15 pm: |
|
What I shared, David, is not slander and not falsely accusing you of evil but is the teaching of your apostle
I'll repeat my question to your denial of knowing about the teaching "Execution of Justice" from Sprigs AKA Yoneq your apostle.
Are you saying you don't know if Sprigs taught that and if it is one of the communities teachings or you don't know if there is anything wrong with what was alleged in the teaching CD that Jacob took from the community?
Your community claims to be the Twelve Tribes of Israel. If you are that makes your apostle much greater than any of the 12 each representing one tribe and puts him on par with Moses and Jesus/Yahshua. |
hockley (hockley)
New member
Username: hockley
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 199.126.40.107
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 9:56 pm: |
|
In response to the article above from "yahshua (yahshua)New member Username: yahshua Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 207.44.154.35 Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 12:22 am: The Vineyard is just one more church that denies what I clearly said; that no one can be my disciple who does not forsake all for me, as I forsook all for them. Heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will never pass away.....
(I include and introductory excerpt for clarity), I find the interpretation rather narrow. Forsaking all does not mean a vow of poverty and destitution. The matter is a "heart" issue. Heart also being metaphorical as in the center, or core of one's being (the heart really pumps blood - so to say I love with all my heart really means one loves with all that gives one life, hence being). The question therfore goes to the matter of the core (values) of one's being. Mere material stuff becomes a matter of stewardship, stuff directed by ones core. I live in a house but endeavor to be a good steward of that house. I share it. I grow my kids in the Lord in it, glorify God with all that He has blessed me with.
I'll throw another idea into the pot, Northrop Frye suggested in an interview one time that one might consider the whole Bible as metaphor! How would / should that read!??} |
hockley (hockley)
New member
Username: hockley
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 199.126.40.107
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:26 am: |
|
Debby said earlier that Vineyard (with the popular CDs) is cultish. I would beg to differ. I might say enthusiastic or passionate - but not cultish. |
bob_o_link (bob_o_link)
Junior Member
Username: bob_o_link
Post Number: 50
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 24.165.58.46
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 1:39 am: |
|
Hey there Branches grafted on by Jesus,
Could some of y'all who might be qualified or may be yer leadership go onto the Wicca thread an preach the word in love an provide accuracy fer those who are contestin' or questionin'?
I thought about it but I ain't really qualified. It seems a shame to let the witches have the most intelligent an apologetics oriented input there.
Scroll down on the thread categories an y'll find it.
God Bless an not blessed be as the Wiccans say.
Jesus is real an He rose again.
He's alive an He is with us as we gather in His Name an desire to find an do the will of Our Heavenly Father. |
hannah (hannah)
New member
Username: hannah
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 2:25 pm: |
|
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 11:54 am: (posted on Satanism site)
Alpha said,
"We are here under satanism, we use "satan" as a metaphor (at least some of us do) for somewhat of a rolemodel as DA has said. We wanna be the best we can be. Now, what is so "Evil" about wanting to be the best we can be."
The problem with "wanting to be the best we can" is that it still is not good enough for heaven. The "wanting to" is admirable, but the fact that you still fall short is horrendous. Just think one little sin and how that can hurt someone else. Think of sometime that you have been betrayed by someone you loved. You have pain because of their sin. That can not be allowed in heaven. Would you want to be the only one in heaven in pain? How can you be happy and joyful and in pain at the same time?
Jesus gave the only answer that works. Forgiveness and you can't forgive really unless you are on the cross, experiencing the agonizing pain of the hurt and the betrayal and the misundderstanding and the unfairness of it all, and when you are in that position you look down and forgive the one that put you there. In our humaness, we can not do it. The miracle is that God did and made a way for us. When you are willing to go to the cross and you try with all your might to really forgive the one who put you there and you are unable to, Jesus exchanges places with you-- He (give Him all the glory and honor He deserves) finishes the job. You are released- resurrected. No more Pain!!!! Haleluyah!
This process requires death. Death of the flesh which doesn't want to die. That flesh is screwing with your mind and trying to make up any justification it can to avoid the cross and death which leads to life. "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are parishing." The flesh will tell you "just be good", "just try your best", or several other denial tactics (and denial is what? denial of the truth.) Now this ties into something I wanted to respond to that "Advocate" said
Advocate wrote in response to Ball of Fire;
"As for jihad, I doubt that they are taking up the greater jihad and struggling against their own inner weakenesses to come closer to God, rather, they are taking up a lesser one, and going after those they feel threaten them. I still fail to see how I'm a threat to them though. I probably don't even live in the same part of the country as they do."
He defines another "jihad" and this is closer to being right. In fact, many of you so called "Satanists" are a whole lot closer than many so called "Christians".
It kind of reminds me of the "left" and the "right", the "stoned" and the "stoners", the "Republicans" and the "Democrats".
The deficiencey with this "either or" thinking is that it leaves out "other" options. Remember there are always at least 3 choices to most problems. Yours, mine and God's. Yes, No and Maybe, etc. In fact, it is a priniple of logic that "either or" is a form of illogic. I agree with "Advocate" about part of his statement, that many people want to fight the "jihad" in other people rather than dealing with the bigger problem within themselves. But the "jihad" he describes is still the wrong fight.
Just look at the expected outcome: CLOSER to God.
Well how close is close enough? Closer than what? Where you were yesterday? Jesus is my Lord, my savior, my EVERYTHING and the Church's (which I am a part of) mate. When we "marry" and "mate" we become "ONE" That is how close I want to be. I want the intimacy of that relationship.
The correct fight to make a jihad is the fight for truth against the adversary that opposes truth, to kill the flesh and live a resurrected life. Any other fight is merely a distraction, a detour. One can wonder in the desert for 40 years. One can make a thousand trips around the same old mountain. But every time you come back around, the Jordan is waiting for you to cross over. The only way across the Jordan is: find it!!!!!
Find truth!!!
Who or what is Satan?
Jesus said to Peter,"Get thee behind me, Satan."
So who is Satan?
Satan is whoever, whatever opposes truth.
A challenge to you who call yourselves Satanists:
Think of the most hurtful thing anyone has done to you (or someone you know). Think about it, remember it(don't deny it). Feel the pain of it. Get into it. Feel all that pain, and betrayal and unfairness. Now forgive them for it. Now evaluate how you feel. Do you feel content? Has the pain left? for good? Don't forgive and forget. Forgive and remember. Do you wish only good things for the offender? Is it possible for you to forgive without Jesus?
This is a lot of debate. No one can talk you into truth. Jesus is alive. He is the way and the truth and the life. He is spirit. He is love. The greatest expression of love is forgiveness.
It goes like this; "You did this to me. It really, really, really hurt me. I don't think you will ever understand how much it (what you did) hurt me. I wish you could understand how much this hurt me-maybe then you would get it and never do it again. I didn't deserve this. Why do I have to deal with this when you did it?. I'm not going to hold it against you because I love you and I want you." Jesus.
Greatful that He Is Risen. Happy Easter every day!
Love Hannah.
(Message edited by Hannah on February 06, 2005) |
seebehindthings (seebehindthings)
Intermediate Member
Username: seebehindthings
Post Number: 126
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.174.183.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
|
I went to one a long time ago. A person who had left but been there a while and had been in the main stream told me that the ministry says to advertize Bible studies in homes to get new people, then once the home group is formed, do not study from the Bible anymore, just do different programs. The home group I had visited was in the program stage already and I got tired of the whole thing rather quickly. |
billiefan2000 (billiefan2000)
New member
Username: billiefan2000
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 67.130.119.210
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:41 am: |
|
what is Vineyard Church's Eschatology Beliefs and do their church have Weekly Communion |
jeff_p (jeff_p)
New member
Username: jeff_p
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 70.60.4.240
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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Yes, we have communion every week. We embrace and teach all common evangelical eschatological horizons through the OT and NT.
You're question is pretty broad. If you're speaking strictly of 'end-times' positions, the Vineyard intently does not declare a position in our statement of faith. Differing views on issues that do not threaten the basic held beliefs of evangelicalism (doctrine of sin, Jesus' atoning death, etc.) are accepted. Separation in the church can often be caused by cultural, polital and theoligical issues that often are outside core evangelical values. We're willing to accept our differences in those areas to aid the promotion of the Gospel and unity of the body. |
jeff_p (jeff_p)
New member
Username: jeff_p
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 70.60.4.240
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 1:24 pm: |
|
"The home group I had visited was in the program stage"
What 'programs' do you speak of? I've gone to 5 different small groups through the Vineyard over 5 years. Every group I've been to only consisted of 30 min of live worship, 40-60 min Bible teaching, 20-40 min prayer. I've talked to a few friends in other Vineyards that had never heard of this either. If you were not studying the Bible, what were you studying? Which Vineyard were you attending and what was the pastor's name. If your comments are true, I'd like to check into it. Thank you. |
notfamous (notfamous)
New member
Username: notfamous
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.18.110.14
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
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It looks like many of you agree there is a problem with vineyard churches. I think so too...
However, I never had a problem with vineyard songs. In my opinion, all the lyrics are always very solid. Who else thinks so?.. and why do you think that is? |
jeff_p (jeff_p)
Junior Member
Username: jeff_p
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 70.60.4.240
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
|
I don't think it's safe to say that many agree that there are problems with the Vineyard church?
The same people that are saying the Vineyard worhip CD's main aim is bringing people into a 'trance-like state' are the same people that 'have HEARD' of weird things going on in the church.
Listen to the cd's and go to the church and clear the whole matter up quickly for yourself.
Matt Redman stated to Don Williams that in the past year of traveling around the world worshiping in thousands of churches, he estimates that now over 70% of all worship songs sung in mainline Protestant churches are Vineyard songs.
If you took all of the postings on this board for face value you'd walk away thinking every sect of Christianity is a cult trying to gain control of its followers.
Paul spends most of his time in his letters addressing problems in the church.
Why?
Because anytime you bring together a bunch of sinners, a common element in every group is problems.
So when you hear of a problem going on in a Bible study or church, the Christian response is to perceive it as a normal process in EVERY church that has to be worked out with the Lord's guidance.
It's not a Christian response to run and tell hundreds of people who are not part of the situation that all Pentacostals, Baptists, Presbyterians, Assembly of Gods, Vineyards are a cult.
Of the 900 Vineyards planted in the last 20 years, the two instances in Kansas City and Toronto were quickly discerned and dealt with.
The Vineyard is a strong large Evangelical movement spreading across the world.
You can jump to any cult site and read up on how every denomination is a cult (unfortunately in the Western world, if your church believes in the Holy Spirit working or spiritual gifts, you're automatically teaching Eastern occultic transcendental practices)
The Vineyard's site offers papers denouncing the silly 'cult' charges against John Wimber that happened 20 years ago. They were started by a few radio shows and fundamentalist authors. All of this has been dropped for over a decade ago now (but yes, the information still remains on cult-awareness sites . . . even though John has been dead for over 10 years)
If one were to visit a Vineyard you would see there's nothing occultic about it at all. Come and discern.
(Message edited by jeff_p on March 18, 2005) |
manymoons (manymoons)
New member
Username: manymoons
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.215.153.194
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 3:20 am: |
|
I attend a Vineyard church in WA and one of the things that I saw immediately there was that the people had a heart for God. My husband & I love it there, this is the 1st place that we have seen believers willing to live like the book of Acts believers in many years. They are truly there for one another and have a great deal of love and compassion for each other. It is a great place to grow in Christ and learn how to function as the body of Christ. I love the worship and the examples that others set there! |
byfaith (byfaith)
New member
Username: byfaith
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.68.203.77
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 9:52 am: |
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I go to the Vineyard Church in Cincinnati Ohio. It is a very welcoming church. I can not compare it to other Vineyards, but I can assure you that it is not a cult here in Cincinnati. Take some time, Its an hour service and view the celebration for yourself then comment on what you think. Our Pastor Dave Workman is a very humble man. I like to say it is perfect for seekers. It has grown in the 20 years that it has been here. You can actually view the celebrations, services from each week on the web site. So if anyone here is not close to a vineyard and would like to be part of one this is a great way to get connected to this church. \newurl and here is a link to watch the last weekend celebration http://www.vccproductions.com/#last{http://www.cincyvineyard.com}
Check out the website and all that this church has done. I would love to hear the feedback of all that have really checked out the Cincy Vineyard.
(Message edited by byfaith on April 14, 2005) |
hockley (hockley)
New member
Username: hockley
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.65.184.246
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
|
Thanks byfaith. I emailed VCC and thanked them for what you've said and done. The links have proved to be a blessing for me and our home church. |
byfaith (byfaith)
New member
Username: byfaith
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.68.210.68
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 2:00 pm: |
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Thats wonderful hockley. Im glad you actually took the time out to check it our for yourself. This church is a true blessing for this area and Im glad that it can be shared over the net. |
hockley (hockley)
New member
Username: hockley
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 199.126.40.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
|
byfaith, what other discussions are you in? |
byfaith (byfaith)
New member
Username: byfaith
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.68.210.68
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:11 am: |
|
not really many here. I like http://www.christianforums.com
theres tons of good stuff there
I'm byfaith1965 over there |
jedislic95 (jedislic95)
New member
Username: jedislic95
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 209.102.174.3
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 1:00 am: |
|
Hello Y'all,
I attend the Vineyard Church of Savannah (VCS) and this church family has been a very great blessing to me. If you do not have The Power of the Spirit of God working in you; Then how are you a vessel for Jesus/Yeshua (His Hebrew Name) to work through your life displaying His Grace through His Authority??? The Vineyard I attend is about an 1 hour and 15mins. long. No one has been "Slain in the Spirit" in our services; But you can feel the preasence of God in the Services and we have Communion every week. This Vineyard is very sound about doctrine and has a very good balence on everything (The Leadership comes from Southern Baptist, Luthern, and Assembly of God backgrounds). The Vineyard Denomination is very different with each Indiviual Church. But, we are just group of Regular People who Love Jesus/Yeshua and and invite people to do the same. If anyone is ever in Savannah GA. Come and check out The Savannah Vineyard (www.vineyardsavannah.org)
Blessings in Messiah! |
nina_s (nina_s)
Member
Username: nina_s
Post Number: 61
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 209.216.191.204
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 5:00 am: |
|
I've visited with friends two V-yard churches in Oregon. The one had a visiting speaker who said there were angels in the corner of the ceiling and demons elsewhere. He went on to say that "we don't need no education" and begged $ for his (he's American) 24/7 house of prayer remodel in his "small" town of 424,000 people.
This was the same V-yard in which the pastor said that there will be a bloody battle amongst Christians, and if you as a Christian aren't with the Vineyard and the move of the Lord---you will be on the losing end. This church also promoted a theophostic counseling video series. After viewing it for 8 hours you could get a certificate and go counsel others. These people were unlicensed in their home state and Oregon.
The other Vineyard had a faith healer from Canada at their Holy Smoke Youth Conference, who was bizaare. Also there was one strange lady (not a kid) who was making animal noises during the worship band's music. Other "staff members" were women who made their way to the front of the audience and twirled and wiggled and danced--totally distracting the crowd from the wonderful worship music being presented.
This church promotes fragrances and gold and diamond dust from the Lord.
A few years ago another V-yard church's pastor's wife went around placing headdresses on different women in the congregation. My friends left that church shortly afterward, as there were a number of unBiblical things, and they wanted a more sound church.
Vineyard music IS awesome, and it is puzzling why some of them get so off! Vineyard Newport Beach is right-on, and I asked the pastor who used to sit on the national board about these things---he thought they were bizaare too---they don't happen at the church he pastors.
Some V-yards are right-on and some aren't. I can only conclude that a church is as healthy as the congregation that READS ITS WORD AND HAS A PASTOR THAT PREACHES THE WORD---being careful to NOT equate extraBiblical revelation to the Word, nor raise signs and wonders and experiences as equal to or above the Word.
I believe when people blindly follow someone other than Jesus, and don't study their Word---well, then probs can occur.
Today, we've got Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets trying to set up an empire in the Name of God. Can't say I think that HE is pleased! Power and greed and desire corrupt! That's why God left His church to a plurality of elders---good to have checks and balances.
God bless! Read your Word, study, pray, seek the Lord---avoid following a man or woman---mankind will always disappoint, God will not.
Nina |
nina_s (nina_s)
Member
Username: nina_s
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 209.216.191.204
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 5:02 am: |
|
I've visited with friends two V-yard churches in Oregon. The one had a visiting speaker who said there were angels in the corner of the ceiling and demons elsewhere. He went on to say that "we don't need no education" and begged $ for his (he's American) 24/7 house of prayer remodel in his "small" town of 424,000 people.
This was the same V-yard in which the pastor said that there will be a bloody battle amongst Christians, and if you as a Christian aren't with the Vineyard and the move of the Lord---you will be on the losing end. This church also promoted a theophostic counseling video series. After viewing it for 8 hours you could get a certificate and go counsel others. These people were unlicensed in their home state and Oregon.
The other Vineyard had a faith healer from Canada at their Holy Smoke Youth Conference, who was bizaare. Also there was one strange lady (not a kid) who was making animal noises during the worship band's music. Other "staff members" were women who made their way to the front of the audience and twirled and wiggled and danced--totally distracting the crowd from the wonderful worship music being presented.
This church promotes fragrances and gold and diamond dust from the Lord.
A few years ago another V-yard church's pastor's wife went around placing headdresses on different women in the congregation. My friends left that church shortly afterward, as there were a number of unBiblical things, and they wanted a more sound church.
Vineyard music IS awesome, and it is puzzling why some of them get so off! Vineyard Newport Beach is right-on, and I asked the pastor who used to sit on the national board about these things---he thought they were bizaare too---they don't happen at the church he pastors.
Some V-yards are right-on and some aren't. I can only conclude that a church is as healthy as the congregation that READS ITS WORD AND HAS A PASTOR THAT PREACHES THE WORD---being careful to NOT equate extraBiblical revelation to the Word, nor raise signs and wonders and experiences as equal to or above the Word.
I believe when people blindly follow someone other than Jesus, and don't study their Word---well, then probs can occur.
Today, we've got Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets trying to set up an empire in the Name of God. Can't say I think that HE is pleased! Power and greed and desire corrupt! That's why God left His church to a plurality of elders---good to have checks and balances.
God bless! Read your Word, study, pray, seek the Lord---avoid following a man or woman---mankind will always disappoint, God will not.
Nina |
cybermom (cybermom)
Intermediate Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 239
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
|
Amen, nina.
You've said it all. Any church and pastor not grounded on the written Word of God is in for trouble. It doesn't matter what denomination, or organization, if any. God's Word needs to be the standard by which all other things are measured. If this does not happen, error WILL occur.
My family attended a Vineyard church for 5 years; it wasn't harmful, but it wasn't doing much for the kingdom, either. We left because we needed deeper teaching. I know, that sounds so egotistical; but the pastor was more concerned about not offending any non-Christians that might be there than challenge the congregation to walk an uncompromised walk.
I think each Vineyard takes on the "flavor" of the pastor - if he's into "touchy-feely" emotionalism and unbiblical manifestations, then that's the direction the church will take. Our former church is now getting sucked deeper into the manifestation stuff, and seeing this causes us to know that we made the right decision to leave.
Cybermom |
redmacaulish (redmacaulish)
New member
Username: redmacaulish
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 207.160.168.243
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
|
Hello all.
Allow me to share a series of memoirs involving my experiences with the Vineyard Church.
First of all, I would like to discuss the Vineyard Church in Grandview MO. The former head pastor, Mike Bickle, claimed to be a form of Jesus in that he was the mediator between the church and God. He then proclaimed that only members of Vineyard were really Christians. They employed a Prophetess who was really a soothsayer, reading the fortune of the future of the church. They had several other members like this.
In addition, let it be known that I have attended Pentecostal churches, and have seen people allegedly be affected by the spirit, but what I saw at Vineyard was nothing from God. People would start making noises like animals, others would run around screaming, some would start attacking others, and people were just causing general ruckus, all approved by the church leadership.
Finally, in the last few years, they (the church) bought a lake and started a very very occultish group called IHOP, which stands for International House of Prayer. This ministry group is very similar in actions and ideals to a massive coven of witches, I know this because I used to practice Wicca. |
jeff_p (jeff_p)
Member
Username: jeff_p
Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.106.232.174
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
|
The Vineyard removed Mike Bickle along with Paul Cain and Bob Jones from the Association of Vineyard Churches in 1991 after investigation of their claims. Also, Mike has always been located in Kansas City, not Missouri. His group IHOP is and always has been based in Kansas City:
(http://www.fotb.com/).
As mentioned before, the Vineyard has taken action in the two instances in Toronto and in KC with Mike Bickle when things were moving away from Christ.
As most have attested in this thread, the Vineyard is a relevant evangelical church. Hearing animal noises and people attacking each other (?, lol) is not normal by any means!
We strive to work out 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 in our services and harbor our creative expression in worship to the Lord with order that admonishes the body and makes a comfortable, welcoming place for visitors. |
vineyardrick (vineyardrick)
New member
Username: vineyardrick
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 65.40.18.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
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Well, here I go on this issue. I discovered the vineyard movement about 8 years ago. At first I was only involved in the music part, the worship was a breath of fresh air. I later befriended a Vineyard pastor who became part of a praise team I led. He has always been rock solid, but even he, has worried at times about some wrong turns Vineyard has made. To Vineyards credit (and John Wimbers) they have repented at times of error. I was involved in the starting of a church (that was to be a Vineyard) about 3 years ago. We had some concerns about past mistakes, but sadly the pastor we brought in did not seem to understand that wimber had "repented of leading Vineyard into the whole K.C. prophetic mess. He was determined to go right back down that path. We parted ways. I am and always will follow this movement of God some have labeled Vineyard. Sometimes the "vineyard church" is right on with it and, sometimes they stray. The movement of God is about fresh, free passionate worship. That is and has always been the strength of the Vineyard, and despite the stumbling of pastors and leaders. God continues to give the world, thru the Holy Spirit some of the most meaningful worship music, I have ever been part of. www.uptownmusic.biz/acrossgeneration
(Message edited by vineyardrick on December 09, 2005) |
philiprosenthal
Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.18
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 2:47 am: |
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Nina writes: "Today, we've got Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets trying to set up an empire in the Name of God. Can't say I think that HE is pleased! Power and greed and desire corrupt! "
Careful about your allegations. I have a friend who was at IHOP last year who told me that Mike Bickle lives a very humble lifestyle and strongly disapproves of the commericalisation of the gospel.
Secondly, the Vineyard Church has produced a set of 5 position papers which answer in great detail all the allegations made against their theology.
You can download them from www.vineyardbi.org Select the 'materials only' option from their bible school course and get them in pdf at a nominal cost.
The history of the relationship with Mike Bickle and the Kansas City prophets is detailed in the book 'Search for the radical middle'.
Also the argument that IHOP is similar to wicca I find ridiculous. Yes, both involve the spiritual and so in that way intercession and wicca are both spiritual - but a different spirit.
Philip Rosenthal |
zeuszor
Junior Member
Username: zeuszor
Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.28.102.193
| | Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
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My recent visit to the IHOP conference in KC
A report from the field about what happened to me last night. I can't believe it. I went to the IHOP conference in town to hear this Mike Bickle guy speak, you know, hear what he had to say from his own mouth. I am visiting a friend and coming from out of town and had no idea about the conference this week. Things started out with some spirited praise and worship. Singing, dancing, people praying over each other, and all that. Sometimes I enjoy that ecstatic overflow-type worship, sometimes a more quiet, intimate, contemplative mode. Well, I had a small vial of fragrant spikenard anointing oil with me (sometimes I wear it just because it smells nice) and felt led by the Spirit at a certain point to begin praying with the people nearby and pulled out my vial of oil and began anointing them. I was wearing a shirt that says Soy borracho y me importa madre which is Spanish slang for something like, I'm drunk and I don't give a damn. Because, you know, I AM drunk (in the Spirit) and I DON'T give a damn (about what others may think of that statement, nor how they will judge me on the basis of that). Sometimes I dress certain ways in churches just to see what the people there are made of, to challenge their idolatries. To shake up their churchy sensibilities. Also I was wearing a loop of thick Hare Krsna tulasi prayer beads. Jeans and sandals too. Nothing too outrageous.
What happened next was a real milestone in my walk. I have never come out of a church environment feeling more judged and abused than I did tonight. Before I knew it, I was surrounded by security guards and being escorted outside. I honestly had no idea what I'd done wrong and asked the guards what the problem was. Well, they interrogated me right there in the parking lot: who are you, what is your name, where did you get the oil, show me some ID, what are you doing here, what does your shirt say. I was polite and mature about the situation and just plain had no idea what I'd done wrong. They said they saw me praying with and anointing some people and that as I was not on an authorized IHOP prayer team I had no business praying over people in their church. They gave me the third degree over this deal and when I asked them why they were so accusatory, dealing with me like I was a criminal, and let them know in a polite fashion (mind you, I never raised my voice, never cursed, or anything like that, I simply asked them what I had done wrong and exactly what they were accusing me of) they got quite agitated and told me to leave or they were going to call the police and have me put under arrest. I was like Arrest me for what? Praying with people? See, he said that in IHOP the only people authorized to pray for others are the official IHOP prayer warriors and they are identified by a very visible ID badge that they wear. Huh?? That's like saying that you're only a part of the body of Christ if you're wearing your ID badge, and everybody else is suspect. They treated me like a tresspasser and a criminal because I was anointing people with oil and praying with them as I was led by the Spirit. What kind of a church is that?? So no, never will I set foot on IHOP property again and will shake the dust of that end-time Uber-cult off my feet. They really seem to believe that they are God's specially anointed end-time Joel's Army. |
zeuszor
Junior Member
Username: zeuszor
Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.28.102.193
| | Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 9:19 pm: |
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Continued
THEY ACTUALLY ASKED ME TO LEAVE AND THREATENED TO HAVE ME ARRESTED. I LEFT WONDERING WHAT THE HELL I DID WRONG. PARDON MY LANGUAGE. THAT WAS THE MOST OVERTLY ABUSIVE SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. WHAT KIND OF CHURCH IS IT WHERE YOU CAN'T PRAY WITH PEOPLE UNLESS YOU ARE WEARING AN AUTHORIZATION BADGE?? WHAT EXACTLY DID THEY THINK I WAS TRYING TO DO? HOW PARANOID ARE THESE PEOPLE?? That's enough to make a weaker believer swear off church forever. How insulting. How presumptuous those people were. Talk about a spirit of elitism.
Bickle is teaching his people that God is raising up Joel's Army through His training program called IHOP and that one day they will literally take over the world for Jesus, because they (IHOP and it's graduates) are the End-Time Forerunners that will usher in Our Lord's Second Coming. I went to an IHOP conference last night and heard it from his own mouth. It’s also in a lot of recordings of his teaching. This is the most spiritually sick thing I have ever seen and heard to sit through. He teaches IHOP that THEY are God's Army (Joel's Army), and that he (Bickle) is the General. I am spooked beyond words. This is not something I would recommend to anybody under ANY circumstances. Talk about a spirit of elitism. Sheesh. And then when I was praying over people during Praise and Worship I was told to leave the property or they's have me arrested. Is this a club, or a church?
The way the ministry was represented in that circumstance absolutely and 100% validated for me that which I have heard from others concerning IHOP in the past: namely, that IHOP is an intensely controlling and cultish church that is drunk on a spirit of spiritual superiority, like they think they're God's elite . The way they handled me tonight, the way they represented the ministry to a visitor, completely lived up to the rumors I'd heard. I will never come back on IHOP ground again, and will never under any circumstances recommend IHOP to anyone I know. In fact, I'll tell them IHOP REALLY IS a cult. At least using the abusive way I was treated as an example. I'd actually like to hear from Mike Bickle himself on this.
Praise Him In a spirit of love I exhort you, IHOPpers, repent of your spiritual country-club elitist mentality. It's sad that this is my one and only experience with IHOP, and I came away feeling like a dog who's been hit over the head for misbehaving. Just because I was praying over and anointing people with my spikenard oil? I may not be on staff at IHOP nor a graduate of FSM, but I am a servant of the Most High God too and will NEVER EVER go back again.
To all of you “judge not” type folks who have a problem with my warning people about groups like this I say: if I knew there were some land mines in a path that you were walking down, and one wrong step could result in your being hurt or killed, it would be my responsibility to warn you, “Hey, there’s a mine there!” or else the blood (so to speak) would be on my hands if you got hurt because I didn’t warn you. You can listen, or not. Similarly, out there in the churchy world there are a loy of spiritually disastrous land-mines of churches that you may get seriously wounded in if somebody doesn’t warn you. I am just saying, don’t step there! Danger! In Love,
Zeuszor, the intrepid traveler |
amgerber
New member
Username: amgerber
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2006
Posted From: 71.48.95.209
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 7:30 pm: |
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Scary and sad Zeuszor. Thanks for sounding the alarm. Despite what anyone may say, that's the loving thing to do! |
spender2
New member
Username: spender2
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.45.177.161
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 5:04 am: |
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The Vineyard Church has and functions under serious doctrinal and theological errors. For a discerning Christian, we must remember that experience NEVER validates scripture. SOLA SCRIPTURA! Scripture Validates or Invalidates our experiences. Furthermore, sound study of scripture must be sought after by not only the church leadership, but also the layman.
As for the Vineyard, it has issues with:
Gifts: Fluidity of Gifts is in direct voliation of the Apostle's teachings. Spiritual Gifts are not a "tool box," nor are they to be approached pragmatically (like Wimber teaches), in addition they are not to be something we seek after!
Healing: Signs and wonders were meant to validate the person speaking on behalf of God. Never were they shown to be a standard among Christians. Further they were never, ever, meant to be used for the Christian... in fact Paul explicity condemns the Corinthians for such apostasy.
Tongues: These are no longer in function... sorry folks! Also, the word "unknown" (1 Corinthians 12-14) never exsisted in the original Greek. Tongues in Greek is glossa meaning "Languages" and Further, the Pentacost participants heard the Gospel (the important part) in their own Language and Dialektos (regional dialects). Paul NEVER discribed Tongues as gibberish NOR If the commands of 1 COR 12-14 were followed, the lie about tongues being still in existence would cease. Lastly, Tongues were meant to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 28:11 & once fulfilled it passes away (as evidenced by Tongues only being mentioned in Mark 16:17; 4 chapters in Acts - after 9 never again; and only in 1 Cor 12-14) It's not in existence and every manisfestation now is NOT OF GOD!
Kingdom Theology: well this junk has holes all over it... and it's difficult to know where to start. 1. the Apostles understood God's kingdom had not come nor were they in a state of "flux"... it had not come (Acts 1). 2. Joel's writing refers to the Millenial Kingdom - 1000 Reign of Christ AFTER the Tribulation... NEVER for the Church Age. The Church IS NOT CALLED to do this work (sings and wonders), or continue this work! We are called to bring the gospel (written) to the world. The gospel is completely powerful without the miracles, and the miracles are warned against repeatedly in scripture by Jesus and the Apostles teachings! I'll go to the mat on this one - the Vineyard is teaching false doctrines.
There are many, many other problems, and the Vineyard is boarderline Sect/Cult and is turning Christians away from Scripture and solid Biblical faith and towards and lie. If this pattern continues, it will lead many people to the exact opposite of what they sought - hell instead of heaven. Therefore, if you in the Vineyard, get out now and find a church which solidly teaches the Word of God.
Resources:
http://www.biblebb.com/,http://www.biblebb.com/} Collected works of Macarthur, Spurgeon, Jon Edwards, and others.
Recommended readings on Charismatic Chaos by John Macarthur
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/,http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/} Read the articles on John Wimber and also those on the Vineyard.
Luckly, my wife and I constantly wieghed both our own Vineyard's teachings and also those espoused on the National site and found that their "beliefs" do not hold up to solid Biblical Interpretation. Take Care and please do not buy into this lie... many will end up in ruin because of it.
Best Wishes,
Sean
PhD Candidate in Education
MBA Candidate in International Business
(Message edited by spender2 on December 24, 2006)
(Message edited by spender2 on December 24, 2006) |
spender2
New member
Username: spender2
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 74.134.251.118
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 10:58 am: |
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Correction/Clarification on Joel 2:28 refered to above
Context of the passage reveals that Joel was not refering to general believers and gentiles in the passage. "Your sons and daughters" in the passage refers to the nation of Israel at the time of the Tribulation and the sealing of the 144,000. The passage that Wimber trys to apply to "Kingdom Theology" has nothing to do with the church, gentiles, or the Millenial Kingdom at all. It does have everything to do with the nation of Israel and them coming back to God at the time of the Tribulation. That's what the passage is discussing. My apologies for not making that clear in the above post.
In addition, anytime that Jesus talked about "the kingdom of heaven is here" (sort of thing), Greek study reveals that this is directly refering to the gospel of Good News, His arrival, not the Kingdom. That's why the Apostles still asked "is this the time?" in Acts 1.
In conclusion, Wimber and the Vineyard as a result, are "off their rocker."
Sean
PhD and MBA Candidate |
exihoper
New member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 2:39 am: |
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I'm here to tell u that MIKE BICKLE is a LIAR and IHOP ACTUALLY IS A CULT. I'd been attending their school, FSM (FORERUNNER SCHOOL OF MINISTRY) for almost two years, taking everything in, journaling everything, and TESTING everything against scripture. There are so many false doctrines taught there, its not even funny. For example:
1. They uphold teachings of Mystics and false prophets.
2. They teach/practice DELIVERANCE for/on CHRISTIANS frequently.
3. I've seen "CHRISTIANS" manifest demons more times than i can count.
4. I've seen/they teach Odd, unbiblical manifestations that they claim are from the "Holy Spirit."
5. They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, "The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!"
6. Generational curses being the cause of habitual sin and sickness in Born-again Christians (they blame demons for literally everything!)
7. Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy.
8. Etc
But this isn't even why I say it is a cult! (YEAH, IT ACTUALLY GETS WORSE!!!)
As I previously stated, I was a student at the FSM, until a series of events left me in a small office with 3 people. At this pointm I was aware of false prophesies, doctrines, and teachings. I began to warn people, adamently, to "TEST EVERYTHING! Don't believe anything unless u see it, IN CONTEXT, in the Bible. Just because something is real, doesn't mean its from God..." So, leadership obviously got word that I'd been doing this and I was brought into an office.
In this office, they gave me a laundry list of things wrong with me (mostly from my past), and said that I have a problem with authority. Then they began to use smooth words to try and twist the situation and manipulate me by saying, "It's not your fault, you just need help. But we are for you! We love you! And we are going to help you." This is when they proceeded to tell me that I needed healing and deliverance from the authority issues which stem from having a bad relationship with my dad (which isnt even true). So, in order to recieve this "healing and deliverance" they were going to give me a portion of my tuition money back (i had only been to 4 days of school) and SEND ME AWAY to Toronto, where the Toronto blessing was. They smoothly threatened me not to tell my parents (without them being there) and to recieve this news with "a humble heart" so as not to "speak evil of their authority" to anyone. If this isn't CULT action, then I sure as heck dunno what is!
Mind you, I had just bought a house that was $1100/mo in rent, so that I could help ihop people in need. I had been mentoring a few of my roomies who were brand new christians and came outta bad living situiations. So THEN, after ALL OF THAT nonsense, they call my roommates into their office, completely slander me, tell them to wait until I am gone, move out of my house, and then send me an email to let me know they've left. They commanded that their meeting be completely confidential from everyone.
Luckily for me, one of my roommates is not stupid. So she told me everything. But my other roommates wont even look at me. IHOP completely screwed me over! Sick isn't it?!?!?!
WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T GO TO IHOP!!! IT IS THE BIGGEST CULT SINCE MORMONISM AND ITS TAKING OVER!!!!!!!!! |
steve
Intermediate Member
Username: steve
Post Number: 163
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 76.170.180.59
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 5:06 am: |
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Hey Exihoper...This sounds just like YWAM...PLEASE
CHECK OUT MY POSTS ON YWAM...UNDER STEVE... |
steve
Intermediate Member
Username: steve
Post Number: 164
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 76.170.180.59
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 5:19 am: |
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Vineyard is CHURCH WITH A TWIST...OFF A LITTLE HERE
OFF A LITTLE THERE...THEY REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT
THE WORD OF GOD...I HEARD A MESSAGE AT THE RIVER TUSTIN VINEYARD IN CA...IT WAS FALSE TEACHING MIXED WITH TRUTH...BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE CHURCH IS FILLED WITH PRIDE...THE PASTOR IS ALSO BLIND...SPIRITUALLY...SO YOU HAVE A PROUD, BLIND LEADERSHIP...LEADING THE BLIND...ALL MOST EVERYTHING THEY DO HAS A TWIST TO IT...SO SAD... |
steve
Intermediate Member
Username: steve
Post Number: 165
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 76.170.180.59
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 5:29 am: |
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Vineyard is CHURCH WITH A TWIST...OFF A LITTLE HERE
OFF A LITTLE THERE...THEY REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT
THE WORD OF GOD...I HEARD A MESSAGE AT THE RIVER TUSTIN VINEYARD IN CA...IT WAS FALSE TEACHING MIXED WITH TRUTH...BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE CHURCH IS FILLED WITH PRIDE...THE PASTOR IS ALSO BLIND...SPIRITUALLY...SO YOU HAVE A PROUD, BLIND LEADERSHIP...LEADING THE BLIND...ALL MOST EVERYTHING THEY DO HAS A TWIST TO IT...SO SAD... |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3916
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.117.203
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 12:04 pm: |
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well i personally have never been in or know where one of their churches are. i have however heard plenty about the vinyard churches and none of it is good. but again i say i dont know. so i want comment on it |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1863
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 6:14 pm: |
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Try the forum at www.kingdomrain.net. Don Williams has an impressive background and he is one of the teachers for Vineyard. |
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