| Author | Message | ||
     soulofthebang New member Username: soulofthebang Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 4.243.188.212 |
Oral Roberts (born January 24, 1918) is an American neo-Pentecostal Christian televangelist. He can be considered to be a part of the Charismatic movement. He was born in Pontotoc County, Oklahoma as Granville "Oral" Roberts, the fifth and youngest child of Rev. and Mrs. Ellis M. Roberts. His mother was 1/4 Cherokee. He left high school and his further education consists of about two years of college study undertaken at Bible schools in Oklahoma on a part-time basis. In 1938, he married a preacher's daughter, Evelyn Lutman Fahnestock. Their marriage lasted 66 years until her death on May 4, 2005. During their life together, they expanded his ministry from preaching in tents to preaching on the radio. Roberts eventually made his way onto television and attracted a vast viewership. Further, he has written more than 120 books such as Miracle of Seed-Faith and his autobiography, Expect a Miracle. In 1947 Oral Roberts resigned his pastoral ministry to found Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association. He has conducted more than 300 evangelistic and healing crusades on six continents and has appeared as a guest speaker for hundreds of national and international meetings and conventions. He later founded Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma in 1963, stating he was obeying a command from God. The University was chartered in 1963 and received its first students in 1965. Another part of the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association is the Abundant Life Prayer Group, which operates day and night. Mostly made up of students, the group receives thousands of calls for prayer daily from around the world. In 1980, Oral Roberts said he had a vision of a 900-foot-tall Jesus who encouraged him to continue the construction of his City of Faith Medical and Research Center, which opened in 1981. It included three skyscrapers, the tallest being Cityplex Tower which stands at 198 meters (648 feet) with 60 floors. It is the second tallest building in Oklahoma. At the time, it was the largest health facility of its kind in the world and sought to merge prayer and medicine in the healing process. The City of Faith was in operation for only eight years before closing in late 1989. The Orthopedic Hospital of Oklahoma still operates on these premises. The CityPlex Towers is currently utilized as office space. Cityplex West Tower, at 30 floors and 106 meters (348 feet) is still in use as a hospital, and is the eighth tallest hospital in the world, according to Emporis.com. (Were the main tower still in use as a hospital, it would be the tallest hospital in the world by a very large margin.) In 1987, during a fundraising drive, he announced that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would "call him home" (a traditional Christian euphemism for death). Later that year, Roberts announced that God had raised the dead through his ministry. "Time" magazine carried this article in their July 13, 1987 issue including testimony by Richard Roberts, (part of his ministry) that he had seen his father raise a child from the dead. In a 2004 television broadcast of Benny Hinn's This Is Your Day!, the elder Roberts claimed to have experienced a vision in which "A dark cloud surrounded New York," purportedly a "wake up call" to tell people that Christ's return is soon. | ||
| frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.152.41 |
Oral Roberts has a twin brother named "Anal" | ||
| frizz_bee New member Username: frizz_bee Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 72.130.224.8 |
Can you state anything of lasting merit and edification and strengthening of the Church that he has accomplished? Have you ever laid hands on the sick and they truly recovered? Do your mistakes or quirks cancel out your entire life or your spirituality soulofthebang? Did you found a very large and internationally acclaimed ministry and university and is it training some of the best ministers in the 20TH Century? Can you find and display any truthful and God honoring information about him and how he has honored God? The other post does not deserve a real response. | ||
| frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 256 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.152.188 |
No it's true, it's true. Oral really does have a brother named Anal. So, what would you call Oral Roberts if he was being honest? Dead. Hahahaha | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 317 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.13.109.23 |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071005/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal Scandal brewing at Oral Roberts U. By JUSTIN JUOZAPAVICIUS, Associated Press Writer Fri Oct 5, 7:00 PM ET TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home." Now, his son, Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts, says God is speaking again, telling him to deny lurid allegations in a lawsuit that threatens to engulf this 44-year-old Bible Belt college in scandal. Richard Roberts is accused of illegal involvement in a local political campaign and lavish spending at donors' expense, including numerous home remodeling projects, use of the university jet for his daughter's senior trip to the Bahamas, and a red Mercedes convertible and a Lexus SUV for his wife, Lindsay. She is accused of dropping tens of thousands of dollars on clothes, awarding nonacademic scholarships to friends of her children and sending scores of text messages on university-issued cell phones to people described in the lawsuit as "underage males." At a chapel service this week on the 5,300-student campus known for its 60-foot-tall bronze sculpture of praying hands, Roberts said God told him: "We live in a litigious society. Anyone can get mad and file a lawsuit against another person whether they have a legitimate case or not. This lawsuit ... is about intimidation, blackmail and extortion." San Antonio televangelist John Hagee, a member of the ORU board of regents, said the university's executive board "is conducting a full and thorough investigation." Colleagues fear for the reputation of the university and the future of the Roberts' ministry, which grew from Southern tent revivals to one of the most successful evangelical empires in the country, hauling in tens of millions of dollars in contributions a year. The university reported nearly $76 million in revenue in 2005, according to the IRS. Oral Roberts is 89 and lives in California. He holds the title of chancellor, but the university describes him as semi-retired, and his son presides over day-to-day operations on the campus, which had a modern, space-age design when it was built in the early 1960s but now looks dated, like Disney's Tomorrowland. Cornell Cross II, a senior from Burlington, Vt., said he is looking to transfer to another school because the scandal has "severely devalued and hurt the reputation of my degree." | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 318 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.13.109.23 |
"We have asked and asked and asked to see the finances of our school and what they're doing with our money, and we've been told no," said, Cross who is majoring in government. "Now we know why. As a student, I'm not going to stand for it any longer." The allegations are contained in a lawsuit filed Tuesday by three former professors. They sued ORU and Roberts, alleging they were wrongfully dismissed after reporting the school's involvement in a local political race. Richard Roberts, according to the suit, asked a professor in 2005 to use his students and university resources to aid a county commissioner's bid for Tulsa mayor. Such involvement would violate state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status. Up to 50 students are alleged to have worked on the campaign. The professors also said their dismissals came after they turned over to the board of regents a copy of a report documenting moral and ethical lapses on the part of Roberts and his family. The internal document was prepared by Stephanie Cantese, Richard Roberts' sister-in-law, according to the lawsuit. An ORU student repairing Cantese's laptop discovered the document and later provided a copy to one of the professors. It details dozens of alleged instances of misconduct. Among them: • A longtime maintenance employee was fired so that an underage male friend of Mrs. Roberts could have his position. • Mrs. Roberts — who is a member of the board of regents and is referred to as ORU's "first lady" on the university's Web site — frequently had cell-phone bills of more than $800 per month, with hundreds of text messages sent between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. to "underage males who had been provided phones at university expense." • The university jet was used to take one daughter and several friends on a senior trip to Orlando, Fla., and the Bahamas. The $29,411 trip was billed to the ministry as an "evangelistic function of the president." • Mrs. Roberts spent more than $39,000 at one Chico's clothing store alone in less than a year, and had other accounts in Texas and California. She also repeatedly said, "As long as I wear it once on TV, we can charge it off." The document cites inconsistencies in clothing purchases and actual usage on TV. • Mrs. Roberts was given a white Lexus SUV and a red Mercedes convertible by ministry donors. • University and ministry employees are regularly summoned to the Roberts' home to do the daughters' homework. • The university and ministry maintain a stable of horses for exclusive use by the Roberts' children. • The Roberts' home has been remodeled 11 times in the past 14 years. Tim Brooker, one of the professors who sued, said he fears for the university's survival if certain changes aren't made. "All over that campus, there are signs up that say, `And God said, build me a university, build it on my authority, and build it on the Holy Spirit,'" Brooker said. "Unfortunately, ownership has shifted." | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2090 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
I saw this on the Internet earlier today. Its a sad story, but the media is blowing it out of proportion. Something doesn't sit well with me, concerning the attitude of the whistleblowers that are reporting this tale to the newsmedia. I really wonder what their motivation is --- quite frankly I think Richard Roberts nails it on the head in his remarks, which are NOT included in this excerpt. Gsrh, why did you NOT include the entire article, and only included the latter half of it? Personally, some of the items labeled as "misconduct" really are not that bad, after all. What is so wrong with remodeling one's home 11 times in 14 years? What is so wrong with maintaining a stable for your children's enjoyment? What is so wrong with spending money on clothes? We all do these things, they are not "misconduct," which is biased in the article. I really think this stuff is being blown out of proportion, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Those are my two cents. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2091 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
oops... a couple of postscript notes. I did not see the first half of the article above. I think Richard Roberts hit the nail on the head when he said the lawsuit was about intimidation, blackmail, and extortion. And I would also add greed. Quite frankly, these former professors, who are supposed to be God-fearing Christians, are violating the Scriptures because Paul teaches Christians are not to sue one another. Heh. I guess they do not believe they need to adhere to the Word of God. Further, on a personal note, I have a few friends who presently attend ORU as freshmen. I don't think they are worrying about this, or are desiring to change their school. God sent them to ORU, and there they will stay. They will not be moved immaturely by such petty-ness as this lawsuit, which is motivated by the things that Richard Roberts mentioned in his sermon, etc. Alright, now this really is my two cents.  | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1245 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
I have always seen that MOST of the stress, worry and anxiety in our life is caused by a failure to exercise Good Stewarship. Let's wait and see what the facts are. Those who can pray in faith need to pray for Gods best for any false allegations be removed and displayed and for truth to prevail. Let's see what both, the investigation reveals by the ORU board....and Let's see what the lawsuit reveals. Either way these things are sad. For any ministry to risk their ministry over personal excesses and abuse is just sad. Bad stewardship, misuse and abuse of all Gods things just make one an open target. Perhaps Switchfoots lyrics - "American Dream" put it best... Success has now been equated with excess.... "When success is equated with excess The ambition for excess wrecks us When top of the mind becomes the bottom line When success is equated with excess If you're time ain't be nothing for money I start to feel really bad for you honey Maybe honey put you're money where your mouth's been running If you're time ain't be nothing but money I want out of this machine It doesn't feel like freedom (chorus) This ain't my American dream I want to live and die for bigger things.... " | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1735 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Jonathan, is there any misuse of charitable giving that you won't defend if done by one of your "heroes"? They're doing all this with money given for another purpose. It is called embezellment and misappropriation of funds. It is illegal as well as immoral an unethical. 11 times in 14 years? Have you ever even read Jesus' parable of the rich man and the barns? Another example of the bizarro, upside down "gospel" of the WoF and Charismaniac world. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 674 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
I seem to remember hearing someone say 'the acorn falls close to the tree'. Then again, a chip off the old block, also comes to mind. Oral Roberts has been in so many scandals, no one can count them. To find a son following in his daddy's footsteps is not unusual. In fact, the psuedo-christian cult of pentecostalism has had an elite minister found guilty of gross immorality on average of once a month since its invention. Why is this story even news worthy? Deja vu!! | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2092 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff: I don't think I'll answer that. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1737 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Then why did you respond? For the sake of those who might think Oral Roberts and the like represent authentic Christianity, here are some words of the Savior to contemplate: And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness (you know, like remodeling your house 11 times in 14 years), for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." Then He told a parable to them, saying: "The field of a certain rich man produced well. And he reasoned within himself, saying, 'What shall I do, because I have nowhere to gather my crops?' So he said, 'I will do this: I will tear down my barns and I will build bigger ones, and there I will gather all my crops and my goods. And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid away for many years; relax; eat, drink, and be merry." ' But God said to him, 'You fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have prepared?' So is he who accumulates treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."(Luke 12:15-21) | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2093 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.167 |
mcmstaff: I responded to say that I would decline to answer you. I could have ignored you, but that would have been rude. If you'd rather have me as rude, then OK --- I'll ignore you from now on. Is that what you'd prefer??? | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1248 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems, mcmstaff Let's wait and see what the facts are. I have always seen that MOST of the stress, worry and anxiety in our life is caused by a failure to exercise Good Stewarship Those who can pray in faith need to pray for Gods best for any false allegations be removed and displayed and for truth to prevail. 1. Let's see what both, the investigation reveals by the ORU board....and 2. Let's see what the lawsuit reveals. Either way these things are sad. For any ministry to risk their ministry over personal excesses and abuse is just sad. Bad stewardship, misuse and abuse of all Gods things just make one an open target. Perhaps Switchfoots lyrics - "American Dream" put it best... Success has now been equated with excess by too many bad steward electric preachers like Creflo, Copeland, DuPlantis, Mike Murdock, Robb Thompson and more...... "When success is equated with excess The ambition for excess wrecks us When top of the mind becomes the bottom line When success is equated with excess If you're time ain't be nothing for money I start to feel really bad for you honey Maybe honey put you're money where your mouth's been running If you're time ain't be nothing but money I want out of this machine It doesn't feel like freedom (chorus) This ain't my American dream I want to live and die for bigger things.... " | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1738 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
I'm not sure "rude" is accurate regarding not responding to posts on an Internet forum. Sometimes it is the best tact to take. That said, it doesn't really matter. I know you won't change until experience changes you (though apparently that doesn't even work well with you since your experience of not getting a job that you were convinced and "confessed" was yours didn't seem to affect your adherence to the bizarro doctrines of WoF). I write for those others who might think that what they see on TV and hear on the radios (and read on FACTNet) is actually representative to true Christianity. Hopefully they will read and understand that there is a Christian faith that takes serious the words of Christ and doesn't simply explain them away and twist all the other scriptures to feed their excesses. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2094 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.167 |
trs, Thank you. I agree that we should wait for the facts to come forth. mcmstaff, Experience does NOT change me. I am not moved by experience, etc. By the way, I am working now --- just not in the position I want --- but I still believe and confess I will get that position that God has for me out there. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1739 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
But you confessed for a specific position and you said you had it "by faith". So, what happened? Did you not have the "right kind of faith" or did God change His mind? If you didn't have the right kind of faith then, what makes you believe you have it now? How can you ever know? (Trick question, because the answer is - you can't ever know. The whole WoF message is a rigged "heads I win, tails you lose" proposition. Not only the odds, but the whole game is crooked, fixed so that only the hucksters in the pulpit win because they can dupe people into supporting their lusts and greedy lifestyles. bizarro!) (Message edited by mcmstaff78 on October 07, 2007) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1740 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
BTW, one experience may not do it, but once it happens a bunch of times when you've believed and followed all the steps, expressed no doubt, etc., etc., and it still didn't work for something like your rent, or a child's healing - well, then come talk to me about how experience doesn't change you. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2095 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.167 |
mcmstaff, You don't understand how faith works. You receive something in the spirit, and then over time it works itself out in the natural. Here's another example, maybe this will help. Let's say that you are believing God for an amount of money so that you can pay off debts. You confess, you receive the money by faith, and then it gets worked out in the natural, as God provides, etc. The WOF movement, at least in my congregation does NOT teach that faith is like poof, wave a magic wand, and something instantly appears in the natural. No, there is a process involved that involves sowing and reaping, so you must plant seed, water it, plant it in fertile soil (what is the condition of your heart), etc. That all being said, I still believe that God is going to provide for me a full-time job before the end of this year, and that is still my confession. In the meantime, God has blessed me with a part-time position with a great company, and there I'll stay until the Lord moves me into the things he has for me as an attorney. Amen. Lastly, your 2nd post... faith ALWAYS works. If you say it "doesn't work," what really happened is YOU did not work --- you were not obedient, or something else that you did messed up. But God has laws, and the law faith (sowing and reaping) is an eternal law that has not ceased. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1743 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Your "faith" did not work in getting the job you said you had - plain and simple. You can spin it any way you want (which is how you've been taught by the hucksters), but the fact remains that the job you wanted, the job you confessed, the job you believed you had - you did not get. Your confession failed. What you describe above, strip away all the faith mumbo jumbo, and it's simply perseverance and taking what comes your way and working harder to reach your dreams. WoF is nothing more that hucksters conning the gullible to believe a lie so they'll keep giving money. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2096 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.203 |
mcmstaff, My faith is STILL WORKING. God is STILL WORKING. Will you stop making your statements of doubt and unbelief - ??? | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4226 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Will you stop making your statements of doubt and unbelief - Krems, telling the truth instead of a lie would even be more refreshing. Doubt and unbelief have nothing to do with questioning your claims. Either they happen, or they don't. I don't know how you Woffers can't see this. Either your claims are true, or they are not. And when you claim something publicly that doesn't happen, it only causes mockery of the Kingdom. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1747 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Jonathan, Mattie (happy Columbus day, MH) is absolutely correct. You are the one who made specific claims back in the summer. You claimed the job was yours, that you would be hired for that specific position. It did not happen. Your "faith", your "confessions", did not work. To assert otherwise is to bear false witness. All your "confessions" now are just putting a WoF spin on the situation so that if you do eventually get a job with that firm, or something similar, you can claim your "confession" got it. Again, this is no different from what anyone else with a dream and perseverance does, other than you think you've got to say certain things and "plant that seed" (I bet you even gave more after you initially didn't get the job, thinking you had to really "step out in faith" and "plant a seed" - this is the hucksterism, the "heads I win, tails you lose" rigged game of the WoF preachers - when what they teach doesn't work, they get you to give even more, believing you've just got to double your "faith"). I got a promotion this same way, Jonathan. I applied for a job, was interviewed, it came down to between me and another person - I prayed that God's will would be done - and I didn't get the job. 18 months later the same job was again vacant. I prayed, applied, was interviewed and this time, got the job. But no confession. No increased giving. Just consistent thankfulness that God knew better than I what I needed and what was best for me. I just kept on keeping on (God forgive me for any boasting, I am just a sinner), trying to do God's will. Again, it's just simple trust and perseverance and hard work. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1748 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Mattie, this is why I call WoF in particular (and Pentecostalism in general) a "bizarro" gospel - it is upside down, a grotesque imitation of the real thing. Unfortunately, in America it is more visible than the real thing and is what most people who hate christianity are reacting to. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4227 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Back to the subject at hand, here is an article in USA Today that shows perfectly what happens when these hucksters make false claims. BTW, didn't Richard have "Elvis Black" hair at one time? I guess blonds have more fun...with other people's money. This man's life has been a train wreck regarding Christian character. Do a little research! To defend him Krems, is nothing but mockery. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-05-oral-roberts-univ_N.htm | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4228 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Wow, a man of real character on the board at ORU. Struts around like a breeding gobbler in the spring, while all the 'hens' in his congregation bat their eyes, smile and nod. But with all his fire and brimstone, how did he ever justify this: In 1975 Hagee resigned as pastor of a charismatic church saying his marriage had collapsed and he had become "immoral" in his personal conduct. After leaving that church, he immediately became pastor of Cornerstone Church (San Antonio) where he is now. After a 1975 divorce, he married a young woman from the former church. Hagee is popular on Paul Crouch's TBN, and, in the past year he has spoken at National Religious Broadcasters, Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship, and Oral Roberts University conferences. Just another example of people not understanding truth and lies. And another example of mockery. This guy makes me ill, and seeing that huge congregation of deceived people is even worse. And HE is going to 'get the word of the Lord' on whether Brother Richard did anything wrong?? What a foolish world of naive religious zealots it takes to support snakes like these!! | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2097 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Matt: I'm not going to respond to you. mcmstaff: I think you're full of doubt and unbelief. That is why things don't work for you. And no, there was no sowing of finances involved with my job search. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4229 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
That's fine, Krems, no need. The truth is hard to respond to. The Hagee scandal is known fact. The ORU scandal will all come out too. Whether you respond or not is of no consequence to the truth. I would like to know "what things" are not working for mcmstaff. Has a stable career, a recent promotion, a nice family life. I am curious how your WoF life is something I would desire more. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4230 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Interesting theory and worthy of reading... http://www.christianissues.com/roots.html From the article: As I was beginning to question the teachings of the WOF movement God brought a book across my path titled "From Ashes to Gold" by Patti Roberts. Knowing that Patti was the first wife of Richard Roberts and that they had a very public ministry before their very public divorce I thought I would read it. She gives the following reflections on the seed money teachings they preached: "The seed-faith theology that Oral had developed bothered me a great deal because I saw that, when taken to its natural extremes, it reduced God to a sugar daddy. If you wanted His blessings and His love, you paid Him off. Over and over again we heard Oral say, 'Give out of your need.' I began to question the motivation that kind of giving implied. Were we giving to God out of our love and gratitude to Him or were we bartering with Him?" (8) Patti goes on to write: "The distinction may appear to be too subtle and I know Oral thought I was splitting hairs, but it seemed supremely important to me. If we give to God because we think that by giving we have somehow placed Him in our debt and He is now required to come through for us and meet our needs, we have, I believe, perverted the heart of the gospel. Our only motive for giving should be love. When we encourage people to give in order to have their needs met or so that they will receive "a hundred fold return" I believe we are appealing to their sense of greed or desperation, neither of which seemed admirable to me. It was a wonderful fund-raising tool, but I believe it gave people a very unbalanced view of a very important biblical principle. At the time I was taking a humanities course from the university and my professor was discussing Martin Luther and the Reformation. When we started looking at the abuses in the Catholic church that Luther had wanted to reform, I began to see parallels in our situation. Luther was incensed by the church's practice of selling indulgences - offering forgiveness of sin and a shorter period of time in purgatory in return for gifts to the church. I had a very difficult time distinguishing between the selling of indulgences and the concept of Seed Faith inflated to the degree to which we had inflated it. Of course, Oral was more subtle. He never promised salvation in exchange for gifts to his ministry, but there were still many people who believed that God was going to look at them in a kindlier way and perhaps that son would get off drugs or they would get their drunken husband into heaven if they gave money to Oral Roberts." Another first hand account on just how deceitful the whole WoF mentality is. It is difficult to respond to, no doubt Krems, the truth always is. The comparison to indulgences seems spot on to me. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1749 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
You may be correct, Jonathan. I am a miserable sinner and God knows that my faith is small. But what little I have is true faith, not some twisted, upside down "faith" in the power of words to control both God and the world around me. And no matter what my faith, or lack of it, may be, it doesn't change the fact that your confession did not come about! You "spoke to the mountain" and it did not move into the sea. BTW, both Richard Roberts and Hagee are additional examples of the extreme hypocrisy and rejection of the scriptures that truly underlies WoF beliefs. The scriptures are clear that "ministers" of God are to be the husband of one wife. This is not "serial monogomy", but one time, one wife only. A man who has been divorced can no longer truly represent Christ or His Church. Can he be forgiven and saved? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean God will indulge his pride and selfishness and lust for attention and put His seal of approval on continued "ministry". If you look at the sociological breakdown of Christian morals and culture in the US, you find it coincides with the rise of the Pentecostal religion and accelerates with the onset of NOLR and WoFism. Coincidence? I wonder. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1253 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff, matt _hatter New testament prophecy, word of knowledge-present, word of wisdom-future still can be wrong or the outcomes can be influenced for the better or worse. We do not stone someone if they make a mistake. People make mistakes. No one would ever step out in faith if they were afraid of never being wrong or making a mistake. Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way...Order my steps in thy word: Colossians 3:15 Let the peace of God rule in your hearts The Bible is (now as called as by Paul)"a more SURE word of prophecy". The Bible is our prophecy for us to put prophecy up against. We are not to follow man but to follow God through his word and to be led by His Holy Spirit in us.Romans 8:14 "those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." You make the classic mistake and error that too many Christians do. You judge Gods word based upon your experience. trial and error... With your limited knowledge. With your limited knowledge what do you do if you are wrong? Simple. You go and make wrong ASSumptions and conclusions based upon circumstances. Gods word is true everytime. "Let God be true and every man a liar." Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering and confess and our acknowledgement of it. Proverbs 18:20-21 "A man’s stomach shall be satisfied from the fruit of his mouth; From the produce of his lips he shall be filled. Death and life are in the power of the tongue." Philemon 6 "That the communication of thy faith may become effectual(divinely energized) by the acknowledging(speaking out) of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. " Claiming the promises of God in His word works. Whether it works for you depends on if you do it under the way the word of God explains. . .unhindered by unbelief, doubt and lack of knowledge. Prayer is exactly that. Praying Gods will...which is praying Gods word. according to Gods word...in faith. There is a better way to pray. A lack of knowledge is most people problem. Leading your life by circumstances bouncing around like a pin ball is not Gods way of leading. First and foremostt being led by the Holy Spirit, Gods still small voice, peace of God, and Gods word (the Bible which the Holy Spirit wrote) is the only way to be led. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2098 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Matt: Mcmstaff had mentioned how certain items did not work out for him --- and I basically said it was because he was full of doubt and unbelief. Faith works by sowing and reaping, through a process that takes time. You must continue to believe through that process, even if takes months or even years to get what God has promised you. You can't just give up. And Matt, I am curious why you would desire the so-called "WOF lifestyle," when you yourself are dropping out of church in the near future - ??? mcmstaff: Your words show you lack any sense of victory in your own life --- that you're just a worm and no good --- and you cannot get victory. I need to pray for you. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1752 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Jonathan, you misconstrue my words. But you are the ones who made a "confession" and it did not work. I trusted my life to the will of God and have been extremely thankful for how it turned out. I was thankful I did not get the job when I first applied, having prayed that God's will was done (as James teaches us) and am thankful that I did get it when I did. I made no "confession" other than "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". TRS, the problem with the WoF and its interpretation is the object and goal of that faith. It takes the promise of transformed life and makes it a promise of material blessing. The "profession of faith" we are to hold on to is not some magical confession that material blessings are ours, but that we may draw near to God, may partake of His divine Grace and nature, due to the work of Christ Jesus our Lord. Read Hebrews 10 more closely and don't simply tear little bits of scripture out of context. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:8-9) | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2099 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.13 |
mcmstaff: Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you never got that position. Whoops. I don't believe in magical confessions, mcmstaff. I believe in maintaining a positive confession, in sowing and reaping, and in the promise and process of God. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4231 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
And Matt, I am curious why you would desire the so-called "WOF lifestyle," Krems, your inability to follow a conversation will cause me to leave you now. Romans 7:15 keeps running through my head when I get into these factnet discussions...  | ||
| inkorrekt Senior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 1093 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.211.178.143 |
I was an Oral roberts fan for 2 decades. I began to send him money for more than 1 year. Then he announced that those who supported him with $120 in 12 months would get a leather bound bible with OR's commentary. I sent more than this amount.I never received the bible. After I sent the cancelled checks even, I never received anything. This is the example of integrity. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2100 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Matt: Maybe that Scripture is a "word of wisdom" to you. Inkorrekt: Wow, well, if I had never received a love gift like that, I would personally call the ministry and complain. Did you do that - ??? | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 678 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
You know jbk, I have a lot of questions and concerns about some of what is preached from our pulpits concerning confession and faith. My concern rises from examples like yours, but not yours in particular. Where are the results? When the confession does not come to pass, what went wrong? The % of the what went wrongs is many times greater than the testimonies of receiving, some of which are questionable at that. The scripture is there concerning confession and faith. Why isn't it producing the results. I have my opinions based on scripture and experience in seeing things for myself. A lot of it, in my view, is the interaction of equally important factors such as humility, love, forgiveness, a motivation free from lust,sin, the devil, and many other important biblical and spiritual principles and realities. I guess I'm saying we need more teaching and action in these areas where we are failing before we'll see results from these teachings, if they be true. Words won't do it either. We need people who are truly humble, loving, and faithful in their words and actions. Having said that, I don't at all think your confession is not of faith or didn't work just because you didn't get the job. Although you often come off as holding almost all of the stereotypical beliefs of a WoF person, I have not heard you claim that confession is a magic formula to get what you want. Your confession, to me, is based in good Bible principle and concerns something you need to be a blessing to others, and that God wants you to have. My opinion is that some things are better left unsaid to those who would ridicule your "faith". What I mean is that you can maintain your confession and believe for your job without ever telling anyone and opening the door for the inevitable. Clearly, if you never get that job, something was amiss. Perhaps God has a better job and you missed it there. Perhaps it is an excersise in learning to deal with what appears to be disappointment. Could be any number of reasons. People can not say that it doesn't work just because they have examples of people who tried it and it didn't work, any more than the naysayers should be entitled to say that ones experience in tongues, healing, or faith is not evidence. Either experience is evidence, or it isn't. I believe experience supported by scripture is evidence. The proof of error of your perspective on confession is not the many failures I see. The proof must be from scripture which frustratingly says to me that some of this stuff ought to be working. Matt-That seed faith article is really though provoking. I've really been thinking about real love and humility before God motivating me, rather than the "blessings" of the covenant so much. When you really take that principle down to it's lowest element, there really is a lot a subtle potential for problems. You know flo will have to discipline you now. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1754 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Xman, the problem is that the experience is used to interpret the scriptures rather than the other way around. While you won't receive this, "tongues" as practiced by modern Pentecostals is not the "tongues" of the scriptures. It is a caricature, a learned psycholinguistic (in most cases) response. Read William Samarin's research into the phenomena. It is no different that multitudes than the tongues of numerous non-Christian religions. One can come up with any interpretation and a corresponding "experience" to match it. The question is, what did the Apostles mean when they wrote it, what was their experience, what did they transmit to their followers, what were they taught it meant from the earliest time? When you start looking at the faith and confession scriptures in context, they are not about material possessions, but about relationship with Christ our God and what it takes to become Christ-like (Christian) in this world and inherit eternal life in the world to come. You hit very closely on it with your comment above regarding "humility, love, forgiveness, a motivation free from lust,sin, the devil". | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4232 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.3 |
You know flo will have to discipline you now. Yea, I will have to bait his hook now. When you compare seed faith doctrine to indulgences, you see just how vulgar the whole thing is. This weekend, I saw 2 scoundrels 'selling' holy water and green hankies, and then had people 'testifying' about winning money at the dog track, etc. They were the poorest of the poor, the most naive of the naive. Copeland and friends are no different, it is just a higher level of 'sophistication', but still a con job. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2101 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Xman3: Your concern about where the results are is valid. I don't know the answer to that. My own pastor teaches that if you're not getting results, then you aren't doing it rights, and that its not God's fault, because faith and sowing and reaping are God's laws. I also agree with you that we need people who are truly humble, etc., and all of that. God cannot work with people who have their own agenda, and not God's agenda. And I also agree with you that faith is NOT a magic formula to poof, and get whatever you want. To be clear, I am still believing for a full-time position as an attorney. I never was believing for a specific job. I know that God is going to bless me with the job that I need, because the job I presently have is not income (its part-time, etc.) However, I know God sees me as faithful there, and God will reward that, in His time. I've learned in life that we must keep our focus on God and not the blessing, and then the blessing (whatever we're believing God for) will come into fruition. But we cannot be focused on our situations, problems, and circumstances, because to do so would signal doubt and unbelief. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1756 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
In the post above, Jonathan claims "I never was believing for a specific job", it in this post he wrote: Sounds like a pretty specific "belief" to me. But of course, WoF proponents change the rules (and meaning of words) whenever it suits them. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2102 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.13 |
mcmstaff: The first sentence was inspecific. I said, "I believe that God is going to provide me with THE right jobs and position that He has for me." I still confess that. Perhaps it was not with that law firm... but I was making a confession that was NOT specific to a certain job. And I am still "declaring the end from the beginning," as well. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1760 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Oh Jonathan, do you see what WoF does to your ability to even tell the truth? The whole conversation centered around one particular job with the person at the law firm you talked with at the coffee shop. You were "believing" for that job. Since you didn't get it you now either have to admit it didn't work, you didn't really have your "believer" operating correctly (i.e. you didn't have the "God kind of faith") or you have to twist the truth about what was really said. Unfortunately for you, there really is a record of the whole thing for anyone to go back and see and understand what WoF is really all about. You have helped expose the dishonestly of WoF as well as anything I, or anyone else, could ever write. May God enable you to love truth and be honest with Him, others and yourself. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1761 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Oh, just to make it crystal clear that you were confessing about a specific job, note the statement that you evidently missed - You weren't "hired there", even though you "believed" and "confessed" it. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2106 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff: No, you misunderstood me. I was not believing for "that" job, but the "right" job, which I thought might have been "that" job. But I knew that if it was NOT "that" job, God would have a BETTER "right" job for me. And that's still what I am believing for. Further, concerning your second post, mcmstaff, its also possible to miss God, and maybe I did here --- we don't always know everything. The whole reason why I did not get that position, is because they hired someone with 20 years of experience. I didn't know they were looking for that. They never told me that --- but they treated me as if I did have favor with them. I still am believing for the right position, mcmstaff. Why can't you drop this issue - ??? | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 253 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.168 |
"anyone to go back and see and understand what WoF is really all about." C'mon now, you think that the posts of one guy in Oklahoma demonstrate EVERYTHING that there is to know about the WoF? And for clarification, this statement is NOT WoF: "I never was believing for a specific job. I know that God is going to bless me with the job that I need, because the job I presently have is not income (its part-time, etc.) However, I know God sees me as faithful there, and God will reward that, in His time." First, no offense to Krems but if he rereads it, he will likely agree. Second, it proves my point that to state that one Factnet poster is a poster child for ALL things WoF is silly. He is studying, learning and growing in his ability to hear from the Holy Spirit just like the rest of us. However, that's just my opinion, and Matt said it best... "Romans 7:15 keeps running through my head when I get into these factnet discussions" - GREAT comment and that is EXACTLY why I am down to about one post a month at Factnet. Have a blessed week according to III JN 2!... | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1764 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Jonathan, I "can't" drop this issue because what you're doing demonstrate how WoF twists someone's perspective on reality and continues you to believe doctrines that simply aren't true. You can't even admit to yourself now, 6 months later, that a particular job you were believing for didn't come about. This "missing God" happens all the time in WoF circles, but you've got to act like it doesn't. The facade of the "mighty man of faith" must be maintained at all costs. There isn't a person I know who, when they finally left this bizarro world, didn't experience a tremendous sense of relief regarding no longer having to put on the act. I also won't drop because it is an object lesson for others who might actually be seduced by WoF theology. I want them to truly see what it does out of the mouth of a proponent. You have provided that and I really appreciate it. Finally, I won't drop because I harbor hope for you and the salvation of your soul. You are still relatively an "outsider". It is easier at this point for you to see and acknowledge the flaws, the deceitfulness of WoF then if you get into "ministry" and actually start earning money off of it. That's where the truly insidious trap is, drawing one down into greed and avarice. Christ commands us to love our neighbors as we do ourselves. I only wish someone had done the same for me before I got into MCM and, later, the WoF world. All you really are doing regarding the job is what anyone, regardless of religious profession, would do - work at what comes you way and keep looking for the "right position". It's called "perseverance" - it doesn't have anything to do with "confession" or any other WoF mumbo jumbo, just having a goal and not giving up in working toward it. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 254 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.168 |
"its also possible to miss God, and maybe I did here" Amen, Krems. "This "missing God" happens all the time in WoF circles, but you've got to act like it doesn't" He JUST said he might have missed God!! I've been praying, believing and doing my best to hear from God at times and just flat out "missed it". It happens MCM. The Bible says that there are many voices in the world, our job is to distinguish God's on the inside of us and follow His instructions. If you were in a church where ministers tried to make money off the gospel, it's really great that you recognized that issue and got out. What's that got to do with Krems and his pastor. Do you know his pastor? Do you know the intent of his heart? Do you know his motives? Do you know the exact state of his standing in God's eyes? Have you studied his pastor's accounting principles? Lay off the kid, MCM - I don't read here much, when I do he most definitely puts his foot in his mouth at times but I would say again, that he's studying, learning and growing in the things of God, just like the rest of us. Be blessed... (Message edited by saygoodnightgracie on October 10, 2007) | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1259 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Oral Roberts Speaks Out Clears Up Misinformation About Allegations Oral Roberts, 89, spoke from his home in California as his son, Richard, and daughter-in-law, Lindsay, sat on Larry King's set in New York. Richard Roberts, the Tulsa, Okla., university's president, told King he never asked students to work on a mayoral campaign there. The fired professors allege up to 50 students worked for one candidate in what may have been a violation of state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status. "I didn't ask or coerce anybody to do that," Richard Roberts said. The younger Roberts also said a Bahamas trip that the professors describe as his daughter's senior vacation was a business trip, and that his daughter and others accompanied him as part of a university recruiting effort. The couple also said many of the remodeling projects on their university-owned home _ the professors allege were 11 such projects in 14 years _ were because of black mold and hail damage. "I have not done anything wrong," Richard Roberts said. "I can't say how much this has hurt my family." | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 947 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
mcmstaff78, I have to agree it's time to let up on krems about the job. You've made your point ... so let him come to his own conclusions. There's a fine line between trying to help someone and trying to force your beliefs on them. Maybe it's time to get back to the subject of the thread .... Did anyone watch the Richard Roberts interview on Larry King? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1765 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Gracie, what it has to do is that it is a fundamental characteristic of WoF. I didn't write that it demonstrates "everything there is to know about WoF" but "what WoF is really all about"; which is, whether intentional not, materialism and is a perversion of the true Gospel of Christ. But I do agree that the point has been made (but am willing to be at least one person will not agree with that assessment). | ||
| inkorrekt Senior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 1095 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.237.125.180 |
JBKREMS: Why do I have to call Oral Roberts when they made a promise and never fulfilled it? Is this not their obligation to fulfil their promise as a "CHRISTIAN MINISTRY". Last month, I ws in a public library. I did not have any change for the printer. So, I put a $10 bill in the coin changer. I took all the coins and never counted them and put in my pocket. When the time came, I took them out. They only counted $8.60. $1.40 was missing. I told the Librarian. She gave me $1.40. When I went home and took off my shoes, $1.40 coins were sitting in my shoes. What happened was my pocket had ahole and it dropped $1.40 coins into my shoes. LAst week, i returned to the Library and returned this extra Library gave me. They asked me why. I explained. They were surprised as if I came from Mars. No explanation over this. This is what all the Christians are called to do : "Do not Steal, Do not covet" KREMS, I do not understand why you always support those who do wrong. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2107 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
saygoodnight: Thanks for your kind words. mcmstaff: I suggest you read and respond to what saygoodnight said above. Why don't you lay off as saygoodnight suggests - ??? Marta: Thanks for your kind words as well. Inkorrekt: I work for a cellphone wholesaler (I'm a buyer). If someone desire to sell us their used cellphones, then we are obligated to send them the appropriate check (if the cellphones have value). However, sometimes accounts fall through the cracks, and so then people call us to ask about their check. In fact, we have a customer service dept. that handles those kinds of calls everyday. That's why I was suggesting that you call. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4234 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/401612/former_professors_file_lawsuit_against.html Interesting article. See how Copeland, Hagee, and Co. circle the wagons when their schemes are about to be exposed? Sounds like the professor was trying to do the right thing, but took his info to the wrong folks. When Swails was unable to get through to President Richard Roberts about the situation, he allegedly spoke to several members on the Board of Regents (an outside governing body for the University), including Billy Jo Daugherty, Kenneth Copeland, and John Hagee. Later that afternoon, August 28th, 2007, Swails was escorted out of class while he was teaching and subsequently fired and removed from campus. The reason given at the time was "inefficiency with paperwork." It could have been handled in a Biblical manner. Sounds like to me Richard and his boys didn't want to do it the correct way and now they are paying the price, if nothing else, in terrible publicity. Kenneth Copeland, John Hagee...on your board? Wow! I would rather go to a local community college given that choice. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 681 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
mcmstaff and jbk have a factnet history dealing with these things. Think of it as a big brother trying to get through to a little brother, Beaver and Wally Cleaver if you will. JBK usually takes a beating in these threads in my view so it's nice to see some rallying to his assistance here a little bit, but for one familiar with their exchanges, a lot gets brought on by jbk's choice to jump in certain threads. The point is, and I think its valid, that a lot of what jbk says and said in particular regarding that job is one of the clearest cases here on factnet of someone who adheres to,practices, and tells others about the principles of faith and confession as taught by the faith camp. MCM is quite anti WoF and rightly sees this as an opportunity to show by example how in his view it didn't work. It sounds worse than it is in their exchange because of their history with each other. I'm more with jbk in theory because I see the principles in scripture, but I wonder why there are few results produced. Clearly, as evidenced by the posts, jbk was believing for that specific job. It would've been easier for mcm to drop it if jbk would just admit that. jbk says it wasn't that job, but the right job. That's not what he said, its what he is saying now. Maybe its what he meant, but it appears to be that at the time he wouldn't back off his faith confession specifically but now he's hedging a bit about what he meant, which in my understanding basically negates the previous confession anyway. I know this stuff backwards and forwards, like so many others. When salvation is preached, hundreds and thousands supposedly get saved. When healing and prosperity are preached, where are the results. If the Word works, and I believe it does, where are the results. Something is amiss here and I aim to find out what and why God is making it so darn easy to get saved and so darn hard to get healed and prosperous, if those are all our covenant blessings. I believe a good confession is a significant part of our faith and personally follow the same general principles as jbk in that sense, but I also believe there are other aspects of this thing we're calling faith that are equally or more important such as love and humility that might provide the key to taking this thing from being a theoretical formula for faith and blessing, to a natural result of a heart moved by the faith and compassion of Christ. To me, this type of heart could not live in a multi million dollar home while getting on the air and preaching about their ministry to the starving and dreadfully poor people of the world and asking us for more, and then telling us how blessed we'll be by giving a pittance to the poor compared to their need. JBK is my best shot at seeing someone here stick to this stuff religiously and I'm hoping for great results and clear testimonies of the blessing of God, rather than a simple statistical normality that says eventually evryone finds a job somewhere. It's an interesting case test in a way and not as out of line as some might think. Of course, that has only a tenuous tie in to Oral Roberts, but so goes factnet. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2108 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Xman3: Thanks for your kind words. As for your question about, "Where are the results?" I would like to share an anecdote from tonight's sermon, courtesy of my pastor's son, J.J., who is the Associate Pastor at our church. Someone once asked a minister, "How come this faith stuff doesn't work? I tried this faith stuff, and it didn't work for me." The minister aptly replied, "No, the faith stuff DOES work. Faith works and IT tried you; you did NOT work." Often times it is not that faith does not work, but WE do not work --- we do not apply faith appropriately, or we miss God altogether, and thus we get frustrated by faith and give up. This is the #1 reason why there are no results. There are also a lot of hindrances to the Word of God being applied in our lives. Negative attitudes of all sorts (doubt, unbelief, sarcasm, etc.) is just one such hindrance. Not walking in love, or harboring unforgiveness is another MAJOR hindrance to seeing results. I could mention more. I recommend a closer study of the parable of the sower, and a discovery of what "weeds" hinder results in your own life. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1260 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Oral Roberts Speaks Out Clears Up Misinformation About Allegations Oral Roberts, 89 spoke from his home in California as his son, Richard, and daughter-in-law, Lindsay, sat on Larry King's set in New York. Richard Roberts, the Tulsa, Okla., university's president, told King he never asked students to work on a mayoral campaign there. The fired professors allege up to 50 students worked for one candidate in what may have been a violation of state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status. "I didn't ask or coerce anybody to do that," Richard Roberts said. The younger Roberts also said a Bahamas trip that the professors describe as his daughter's senior vacation was a business trip, and that his daughter and others accompanied him as part of a university recruiting effort. The couple also said many of the remodeling projects on their university-owned home _ the professors allege were 11 such projects in 14 years _ were because of black mold and hail damage. "I have not done anything wrong," Richard Roberts said. "I can't say how much this has hurt my family." "Tim Brooker, and his wife are the main professors who filed the lawsuit, state that they is not sure if the allegations in the documents are true." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAs98xwo_34 The IRs investigation where Tim Brooker accepted 100% responsibility was in 2006. He was fired in 2007. He states in his lawsuit that as soon as he found out about the plan to involve students in the mayoral campaign he said no, it was against 501c3. From the beginning. He is responsible for his own actions. He is a professor of government, knew it was wrong and did it anyway. He didn't seem to have a problem with any cover up, (his own actions included)IF THERE WAS ONE, until after he was fired and lost out on $18k + in lost wages. There are many problems with the lawsuit. I am very curious to see if this Richard Roberts/ Oral Roberts University lawsuit will even hold up, it reads more like a libel suit than a "wrongful terminated" suit, and seems as if it was motivated to inspire rumors, controversy, and disgrace rather than win an actual wrongful termination. The amount of slanderous statements is astounding, and I wonder legally how that will work for the plaintiffs. In fact, one of the plaintiffs, Tim Brooker, admits that he lied to the Internal Revenue Service in his own summation of the lawsuit! There was very little fact regarding the rules surrounding Tim Brooker's terms of employment, as he worked at Oral Roberts University for 7 years, and his wife 3. I was especially amused at the statement referring to how Paulita Brooker was "lured" to her position at ORU. Wow, lured into a position as a professor, how weak willed she must be. Just how, pray tell was she "lured"? Oral Roberts University is the only Spirit Filled University in the country that is accredited and has earned its reputation of being a quality school. No wants to see that lost or the students hurt. Richard Roberts has stated that the lawsuit is only about money, which wouldn't surprise me, the plaintiffs are seeking financial damages. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1769 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
All I can say is there a whole lot of people, living and dead whom this "faith stuff tried" and they "did not work". What a hubristic, arrogant, presumptuous and judgmental assertion. This is another demonstration, if you ask me, of the "character" (or lack of it) that is inculcated in people via WoF. As for Richard Roberts' response, it sounds exactly what every other plaintiff says when sued for civil damages - just PR spinning. T | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1264 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff78, All I can say is there a whole lot of people, living and dead whom this "faith stuff tried" and they "did not work". Huh????? Trying something and it not working for them doesn't mean Gods word doesn't work or that Gods power is not available for whosoever would believe and receive and not doubt and do without. Faith is not true Biblical faith unless it is used in receiving what God has already provided by grace. Hebrews 11:6 "It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without faith." Eph 2:8 "By grace are you saved through faith..." Grace is what God has already done for us independent of any worth or value on our part. If it is tied to some goodness of ours or own performance then it not true grace. God by grace, has ALREADY provided everything we will ever need. Faith just appropriates and manifests what God has already done and provided in Grace. All it means is that God did not fail. Rather the people who try things and don't see it missed it somewhere. There are reasons why people do not receive. The problem is not with God giving(he already has) the problem is in the receivers. There is a right and wrong way to do things. There is a BETTER way to pray. "God is a spirit".John 4:24 There is a spiritual realm. God moves in the spiritual realm. Whether or not we see what God has done in the spiritual realm manifest in the physical realm is not dependent on Him giving but rather on us RECEIVING. Mark 7: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. 9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? How much more will God give you good things to them that ask? Well just like a television broadcast the signal is always broadcasting. God is always on and giving but like a televisions set we need to be on and receiving. Faith manifests what has been given us in grace from the spiritual to the physical realm. It causes it to come to pass. There are even more people living and dead who never put their faith in the Grace of God and never accepted the free gift of relationship with God that Jesus made the way for. This doesn't mean that God wasn't their for them, it just means for SOME specific reasons they did not receive the free Gift of eternal salvation..... continued... | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1266 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcm continued. . . The two variables and hindrances to results in receiving and in prayer Jesus explains are "unbelief" and "satans opposition." Unbelief even hindered Jesus, his disciples and those since Jesus. MtMatthew 13:58 "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief". Matthew 17:20 "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." 3 types of unbelief: 1.)Ignorance of Gods word-lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6, 2Peter 1-3 2.) Wrong teaching. Tradition instead of Gods word. Religion, opinions etc. instead of Gods word. 3.) Natural- Soulish realm, Physical realm going by the five senses, emotions, feelings etc. over Gods word. "For we walk by faith(in God and His word) not by sight. This last one has people exalt circumstances above Gods word. All of these short circuit and hinder faith. You can have doubt and unbelief working at the same time you have faith. James call this double mindedness. "5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. " The Greek original text puts it even better.. "If any of you is deficient in wisdom, let him ask of [b]the giving God [Who gives] to everyone liberally and ungrudgingly, without reproaching or faultfinding, and it will be given him. 6Only it must be in faith that he asks with no wavering (no hesitating, no doubting). For the one who wavers (hesitates, doubts) is like the billowing surge out at sea that is blown hither and thither and tossed by the wind. 7For truly, let not such a person imagine that he will receive anything [he asks for] from the Lord, 8[For being as he is] a man of two minds (hesitating, dubious, irresolute), [he is] unstable and unreliable and uncertain about everything in all his ways}[he thinks, feels, decides]". James 1 } | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1771 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
TRS Please, your cut and paste jobs taking scriptures out of context and forcing them into your own twisted interpretation really doesn't do much for me. I'm sure you must have better things to spend you time on. I blasted your whole "unbelief" vs. lack of faith theory out of the water before. Stop retreading the same tired non-responses and try to actually engage what is being written instead. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1267 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff, You give the same old AVOID answering line because you lack knowledge... Huh? cut and paste? Where? From where? lol  If you are too lazy and lack Biblical knowledge and can't respond from the clear cut scripture and comment on what I post and then you use the lame lazy comment that I "cut and paste"? lol. Every scripture reference is within its context and subject matter that it is talking about. PS The two variables and hindrances to results in receiving and in prayer Jesus explains are "unbelief" and "satans opposition." Unbelief even hindered Jesus, his disciples and those since Jesus. Matthew 13:58 "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief". Matthew 17:20 (When asked why they couldn't heal a person, Jesus tells them, answering his disciples) "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." 3 types of unbelief: 1.)Ignorance of Gods word-lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6, 2Peter 1-3 2.) Wrong teaching. Tradition instead of Gods word. Religion, opinions etc. instead of Gods word. 3.) Natural- Soulish realm, Physical realm going by the five senses, emotions, feelings etc. over Gods word. "For we walk by faith(in God and His word) not by sight. This last one has people exalt circumstances above Gods word. All of these short circuit and hinder faith. You can have doubt and unbelief working at the same time you have faith. James 1:5-8 calls this double mindedness. It clearly shows your attempt at trying to get out of answering the truth, and use your blanket cut and paste excuse to dismiss something because you can't refute the truth, because you are proven wrong every time by the Bible. You make these outrageous opinion statements with ridiculous generalizations like "All I can say is there a whole lot of people, living and dead whom this "faith stuff tried" and they "did not work". You have no control over what other people believe, do or say or think except to influence them with Gods word, prayer, and the Holy Spirit. I know many people that pray and when they don't see their answer soon enough they just give up and blame God. AS SCRIPTURE IN THE ABOVE POSTS STATE AND ELSEWHERE IN THE BIBLE, GOD NEVER MISSES IT, GOD ALWAYS ANSWERS PRAYER, only people miss it. Gal 6:9 says if you quit you won't reap.... Mk 11:22-24 says if you doubt you won't receive. Jesus said it and the Bible is clear. Your little peanut brain and smaller Bible knowledge has little knowledge to make the crazy assumptions you do without any BIBLE to back it up. | ||
| baloney Junior Member Username: baloney Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 207.203.89.1 |
hey matt wazz up with all the hate. tone it down dude. have you ever prayed over someone and they were literally legitimately healed? all denominations have their problems. baptists are masons and haters of the charismatic. pentacostals can be superstitious and fear based and see a devil under every placemat. catholics pray to a goddess who they have developed a huge mythology about and believe that bread turns into the literal body of Christ. God is on His throne and He looks at the hearts and faith. one thing is certain there are many ministries that have been birthed and succeeded out of that ministry college. this can be a refining and testing fire. see who's dependent on the robert's or the education to fulfill a call of God and be equipped to equip others and win souls and heal the sick. checks and balances are a good thing. God can turn what the enemy meant for evil and turn it to good. a second thing is that there are documented healings. yeah, that's right boys, documented by doctors and proven through the prayer ministry of the TV ministry. if the professor was fired that way, it was wrong. abusive controlling unprofessional. dictator like. we are clearly called to seek peace and get understanding. there should have been honest fair prayer covered meetings about any issues. absolute power corrupts absolutely. both sides are in the wrong to varying degrees. john hagee is a very overweight, while he has doctors on about health constantly and is a condemning,sarcastic, hostile, fire and brimstone fella and we just can't listen to him "teach" usually. after all of the bravado, damage control, loyalties and versions, the truth will come out. sueing though is not Biblical. mediation would be an option. God can put things into order and correction and accountability is always a good thing. (Message edited by baloney on October 12, 2007) | ||
| baloney Junior Member Username: baloney Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 207.203.89.1 |
yeah oral may be kinda of out there and he isn't Jesus and then so isn't right on all the time, but you have done more in Christ and for God than he has? his positive legacy and influence is far more Biblical and faith instilling than otherwise. you have built a college and God used you to heal and strengthen the faith of thousands? you mock someone that has done a kazillion more things for the Lord and for Christians and non, than you could dream of doing. give him more than break. give him some respect and give the Lord some reverence. the divorces with these ministers and why, is really troubling. sowing to reap a harvest is in the Bible and if your heart is right and spirit is pure...you can sow spiritually and with money. you do reap what you sow. and you reap 30 60 and a hundred fold. methods and practices and insistence those things are questionable. which of us are perfect in anything. looks like some kind of judgment is happening in the earth, with the sports confessions, and ted haggard and other things and we know the Bible says, "judgment begins at the house of God". what's happening folks? something. more than something? mark | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1773 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
TRS, you're right, I don't have the time to respond to a discussion we've already had. You copy and paste from your previous posts. You never write anything new. Because I am lazy when dealing with copy and pasters, here's a copy and paste from one of my previous responses to you: The distinction you make just isn't supported by the scriptural evidence. You say that a "double minded" man is one that has "faith" and "unbelief" present at the same time. Let's examine the passage from James: quote: James 1:5-8 (5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Now, first note that there is no mention of "unblief" here, but rather of "wavering" faith. The word "wavering" is from the Greek "diakrino". Thayer defines this as: 1) to separate, make a distinction, discriminate, to prefer 2) to learn by discrimination, to try, decide 2a) to determine, give judgment, decide a dispute 3) to withdraw from one, desert 4) to separate one’s self in a hostile spirit, to oppose, strive with dispute, contend 5) to be at variance with one’s self, hesitate, doubt. So, "wavering" is juxtaposed to "faith" in this passage. One cannot "ask in faith" and "waiver" at the same time. This is not "having faith" but also "unbelief". The "double-minded" man is not one a schizophrenic, but one who cannot make up his mind, is "unstable" in his mind, whose faith waivers. And, again, "unbelief" is the translation of "apistia" which is the noun form of the verb "apistos", which is formed from the negative particle "a" in the Greek, coupled with "pistos", which is simply a verb form of the Greek word for "faith", "pisteo". "Believe" is generally how we translate the verb, while "faith" is generally how we translate the noun. Consequently, "unbelief" is simply a negation of faith, it is "negative faith", "a-faith". It can be both active and passive, simply a lack of faith or an active doubting, disbelieving. Perhaps we are saying the same thing, but the distinction you make between "faith" and "belief" or a "lack of faith" and "unbelief" is not supported in the Greek. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1774 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Here's another past response to one of TRS' copy and past jobs: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:1-8) Walking by "faith and not by sight" has to do with what the Apostle says earlier, that we have a "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" and but that while we are at home in this body, i.e. the physical one, we are absent from God, consequently we walk by faith, not by sight. We walk trusting in God Whom we do not see, Whom we are not yet at "home" with. Our life is governed by faith in our eternal hope; not by the outward specious appearance of present things. 1 John 4:17 has to do with exemplifying the same love Christ did in the world. The preceding verses, Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us...And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1 John 4:7-12; 16-17) What "words" are Jesus talking about that one must "doeth"? The passage in Mat. 7 culminates the Sermon on the Mount beginning in chapter 5, all those "words" are what Jesus is speaking of. Even more, let's look at the words at the beginning of chapter 7, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5) Don't you love the scriptures when they're put into proper context!! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1775 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
And, I think my favorite response (and one undoubtedly displaying the most wisdom) to TRS on that other thread (that has eerily gone the same way as this one): I'm with Mattie. You win, TRS, I surrender to your superior intellect, dazzling debating skills, unmatchable knowledge of scripture, and super duper faith. Besides, this thread's getting a bit cumbersome to load and is way off topic now. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1274 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmstaff78, I read the actual Greek text...The whole context is talking about hindrances to faith. The Bible states Every Christian has been given "THE MEASURE OF FAITH". Jesus stated all you need is a "grain of mustard seed faith." Then he explains how unBelief and also doubt hinder faith from working. The disciples worked faith everytime then this one time they could not. Jesus explains WHY! UNBELIEF. The same thing that hindered people from receiving from HIM! Pure faith causes the victory. Faith is the fight-The fight to keep your faith pure without hindrance from unbelief and doubt and built up. Try some Jude 20-pray in tongues.lol  "Fight the good fight of faith, 1 Timothy 6:12... 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 1 John 5:4 "4For whoever is born of God is victorious over the world; and this is the victory that conquers the world, even our faith. "Without faith it is impossible to please God. and to be satifactory to him. For whoever would come near to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He is the rewarder of those who earnestly and diligently seek Him [out]." Hebrews 11:6 James is talking about having a PURE faith, not being double minded or muddled up hindered with doubts and unbelief. The disciples had faith and did miracles then at the same time they had faith their unbelief hindered them. Jesus had faith yet unbelief hindered him. Are you better than Jesus? Unbelief even hindered Jesus, his disciples and those since Jesus.} Matthew 13:58 "And he (JESUS) did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief". In Matthew 17:20 (When the disciples asked Jesus why they couldn't heal a person, Jesus tells them, answering his disciples) "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." UNbelief coming in the three forms I stated above hindered faith and thus hindered people from receiving. FAITH IS NECESSARY FOR RECEIVING. Jesus said so. Jesus also rebuked people for their lack of using faith. UNbelief hindered the faith of the disciples and the people he could not heal. EVery where else Jesus healed them all and so did the disciples. You have error teaching unbelief. Doubt also hinders faith. Any Christian can have both faith and unbelief working at the same time. Any one can have doubt working at the same time. Jesus said after this to remove the natural sense realm unbelief to pray and fast which puts down the physical and the flesh mindset and tunes one in with the spiritual the spirit of God in them. Prayer and fasting changes you not God. It puts down the five senses from hindering faith and the mindset and tunes up oneself sensitizing sharpening, making one more in touch and in control by and with their spiritual self and less hindered by the flesh. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1778 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Just more of the same copy and paste. "Unbelief" = "apisteo" = equals "a pisteo", a negation of "faith" (pistis or pisteo = "faith"). To distinguish between "unbelief" and "faithless" or "lack of faith" is nonsensical and not supported by the Greek. It is a distinction without a difference. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1277 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
mcmSTUPID66 Quit stalking me... THERE YOU GO AGAIN! To avoid being proven wrong and showing all the Bible proves you wrong. You just SPUE out your lame "copy and paste" line. lol lol How can you be so stupid and still breathe and be able to keep your heart beating??? You must love to stay in the land of doubt, unbelief and stupid. FAITH PLEASES GOD! HEBREWS 11:6 Every person who did great things for all examples did it by FAITH! Hebrews 11 States name after name, person after faith great miracles BY FAITH, by faith the people crossed the Red Sea, BY FAITH..., BY FAITH by FAITH. You Hate faith. You hate tongues. You hate the Holy Spirit. You hate miracles. You just plain HATE! Satan does the same things. He hates Gods word, and power. He twists the scriptures. He hates faith. He loves doubt, unbelief, and fear. You also lie! You twist the scriptures. I write a whole series of thoughts and all you can say is to AVOID answering is "copy and paste." lol lol lol WHY DO YOU HATE EVERYONE? WHY DO YOU SPUE YOUR HATRED ALL OVER THESE THREADS AGAINST THE SCRIPTURES? WHY DO YOU SPUE HATE AND LIES AGAINST ALL SPRIT FILLED BELIEVERS? WHY DO YOU LIE ABOUT PEOPLE WITHOUT PROOF?AGAINST ALL Holy Spirit full Bible believers? FAITH PLEASES GOD! HEBREWS 11:6 | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1783 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
TRS, why do you just copy and past from one thread to another. I find it sad that people would read your revilements and believe that they represent what Christianity is all about. Can you not see how such postings drag down the Name of Christ? "Repent...so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;" | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4235 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.3 |
TRS: (yawn).  Take a break from factnet. You need to get out this weekend an get some fresh air. You are boring us to death with these tedious posts. Do you really think all of your Bible thumping, and subsequent name calling is accomplishing anything, other than confirming to unbelievers that Christian folks are a bunch of nutjobs? Geez, go away for awhile and get some perspective. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 948 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I knew all the mysteries of the future and knew everything about everything, but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 949 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Geez, go away for awhile and get some perspective. Even though it wasn't directed at me, I think I'll take your advice anyway. Have a good weekend everyone. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4236 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
I like your sense of humor Marta, and love your scripture reference. Perhaps we should consider that passage and "copy and paste" it in our minds before we post.  | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1281 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
matthatter, mcmstaff, THERE YOU GO AGAIN! Then you avoid the truth of the scriptures and you spue out the same one liner to try and dismiss the truth. You both need to take a break and study the Bible. The whole full Bible. Not the one you tore out most of the epistles out of. lol You both hate Richard Roberts and any "Holy spirit filled full Bible believing and doing believer" so you take any opportunity you can to take shots whenever you can. The people with the lawsuits against ORU are court proven liars (with out any proof) and only out for money and evil motives clearly shown by their documented conduct. You are judge jury and executioner before even all the facts are out. Jesus enemies were religious pious fools. Jesus hated these lieing frauds sons of satan white washed on the outside sick and filthy on the inside. You two are classic religionites. You hold a form of religion but deny it's very power. You spue your dry religion pushing your dead bones thinking while your own lives display no evidence with no witness. You show no signs and wonders following your lives. Why? Because you refuse to put faith in a miracle working God who gave us all "the same power that raised Jesus from the dead" and then commnandeds us all to be filled with the Holy Spirit giving us power to be witnesses, and commanded us all to heal the sick, cast out devisl, speak with tongues, and preach the good news to all the world and give proof with signs and wonders FOLLOWING this good news of God's we are commanded to proclaim. You have no good news. You just have a bunch of maybe's. You have sickness, poverty, suffering and no true Holy Spirit relationship. You can't discern Gods word which the Holy Spirit wrote because you don't have the power of the Holy Spirit. You don't believe. You don't have faith. You are not a doer of Gods word. You are afraid of failing. The faith heroes all had and used faith. Jesus suffered and redeemed us from the curse, and died in vain for religious dry bone pious dark ages old farts like you. God is only pleased by faith. What unbeliever wants your DEAD martyr religion? WE are called to be living witnesses with all the same works Jesus did and greater works than those signs and wonders following. Your dead religion shows not even the works Jesus did. The world needs and wants living powerful Jesus. The same Jesus who "healed them all" Not some lame excuse of unbelievers like yourselves. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 683 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.247.141.30 |
Well trs, I sure am learning a lot about the love (remember how that great faith you talk about works) of God from you here. Thank you. Your faith is an example to us all. I only wish I had the great discernment and lifestyle you have so I could also go around factnet and tell who was dead or alive like you, but then I should know already. Anyone who doesn't agree with you must be unsaved or unspiritual. I suggest you cut and paste some new scriptures on the love of God and how to treat the brethren when you disagree, and then try and act on them. Of course, I'm being sarcastic a little, but even Paul spoke to people at a level they could understand. I often think the scriptures you post are real good, but then you undermine all credibility with your post scripture commentary which doesn't line up with 'em. I believe quite a bit different than mcm and less so than Matt, and haven't found the need one time in my hundreds of posts and interactions with them to insult them or question their salvation. mcm can be pretty tough sometimes though, and I can understand why he might irritate you a bit, but I can't understand that last post of yours. Faith, by any definition, won't work when you fail to demonstrate patience and love with people, but that's a part of the magic faith formula that people often only examine after it didn't work instead of practicing it as a lifestyle. I'm biased, of course, because we're all ex-ENers, so to speak (maranatha actually), and I consider them to be not only my brother's, but also, in a certain sense, friends, so I throw in my 2 cents here to give you some food for thought. Their beliefs were not arrived at any more lightly than yours, and Matt doesn't even get involved very deeply in the doctrinal aspect much here because of people who are beligerantly stubborn and arrogant in their own doctrines and beliefs. I almost always overlook your insults that you tack on to the good scriptures you use in the many threads we both post in, but this time I wanted to comment because these guys aren't strangers to me and I think you're wrong. With that, I'll bow out of your disagreement untill that old factnet demon makes me post again for reasons which never seem to accomplish much anyway. Who really ever listens here anyway? | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1283 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
xm, mh, loc,? Where's your love? Where's the love you have for Gods word? Where's the love for Gods power? Where's the love for Gods people to be healed, set free, delivered and victorious, overcomers, more than conquerors. You talk talk talk but create no fruit.You Show no proof of God or his manifest power. You guys always use the same old line if someone doesn't adamantly agree with you.... but where's the love you claim while accusing someone and not just one but all the millions of people of being liars? or you guys rewriting the scripture. We are fed up of all the naysayers that show nothing of fruit or proof except talk against true proof signs and wonders. Read this and show some demonstration and power or just be quiet until you do. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 685 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.247.141.30 |
There would be no way you would know what "fruit" we are producing. Besides, talk is cheap. I want results, not talk. I don't come here to teach other's doctrine. I'm here to learn and interact with people who had cult experiences, and discuss doctrines and such civilly. Also my loving people won't make them overcomers. If it could, they would all be overcomers because that is my nature. You would be hard pressed to show me one place I've called anyone a liar on factnet, much less millions. I too believe in healing etc... I just see a lot of sick and struggling Christians mimmicking what Kenneth Copeland or Hagin say, but far away results wise. It is in the Word, but it isn't working in most people's lives. Why? I say that tongue in cheek because there are lots of reasons why and you or anyone else could never say why one person's faith appears to "work" and another's doesn't. I believe there are flaws in the teaching and the ministers are getting rich off them. You guys this and you guys that. How ridiculous. We are so different in what we post that you have moved into the absurd. I am merely pointing out to you, oh great lover of God's Word, that FAITH works by LOVE. Insulting Christians and name calling will negate your faith and make it of no effect. Maybe you think that's what God is doing? Is that what He's saying? If you think so, then you are the one who is making a mockery out of scripture. If you don't think so, then maybe you ought to stop doing it. All the scripture in the world posted in your posts becomes meaningless blather from you when it is not seasoned with grace as you were commanded, but peppered with insults. Now I could type out a whole bunch of scriptures that prove what I said just like you do, but you already know them and it's too much work for me. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1786 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Xman, unfortunately, TRS and JBK remind me of the various extremes I was used to in the 20 plus years I was Charismatic/WoF. Jonathan is a well meaning sort, but can't see the forest for the trees. TRS is the slash and burn, if you disagree with me you're disagreeing with God type. He deals only in caricatures, not with what is actually presented. He doesn't carry on dialog, but monologues with spectators. I apologize for at times being overly tough on people, but both these types both make me extremely sad as well as set off my anti-crap sensors full steam. Of course, I should recognize by now the futility of engaging them, especially TRS, but hope springs eternal. God bless! | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2109 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.153 |
mcmstaff: Thank you for your kind words. I take your comment that I am a "well-meaning sort, but cannot see the forest for the trees (which means I am a detail-oriented person)" as a compliment. | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 319 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.13.109.23 |
Oral Roberts U president accused of lavish spending By Associated Press Published on: 10/17/07 Tulsa, Okla. — Oral Roberts University president Richard Roberts has asked the school's board of regents for a leave of absence amid accusations of lavish spending at donors' expense and illegal involvement in a political campaign. On Wednesday, Roberts, 58, said he would continue in his role as chairman and chief executive of Oral Roberts Ministries. "I don't know how long this leave of absence will last, but I fully trust the members of the Board of Regents," Roberts said in a statement released by the university. "I pray and believe that in God's timing, and when the board feels that it is appropriate, I will be back at my post as president." An Oct. 2 lawsuit filed by three former ORU professors says they were wrongfully dismissed and alleges the spending at donors' expense, including numerous home remodels and a senior trip to the Bahamas for one daughter on the ministry's dime. It also accuses Roberts of illegal involvement in a local political campaign, which would violate the university's nonprofit status. http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/10/17/OralRobertsScandal_1017.html | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1306 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Oral Roberts Speaks Out Clears Up Misinformation About Allegations Oral Roberts, 89 spoke from his home in California as his son, Richard, and daughter-in-law, Lindsay, sat on Larry King's set in New York. Richard Roberts, the Tulsa, Okla., university's president, told King he never asked students to work on a mayoral campaign there. The fired professors allege up to 50 students worked for one candidate in what may have been a violation of state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status. "I didn't ask or coerce anybody to do that," Richard Roberts said. The younger Roberts also said a Bahamas trip that the professors describe as his daughter's senior vacation was a business trip, and that his daughter and others accompanied him as part of a university recruiting effort. The couple also said many of the remodeling projects on their university-owned home _ the professors allege were 11 such projects in 14 years _ were because of black mold and hail damage. "I have not done anything wrong," Richard Roberts said. "I can't say how much this has hurt my family." "Tim Brooker, and his wife are the main professors who filed the lawsuit, state that they is not sure if the allegations in the documents are true." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAs98xwo_34 The IRs investigation where Tim Brooker accepted 100% responsibility was in 2006. He was fired in 2007. He states in his lawsuit that as soon as he found out about the plan to involve students in the mayoral campaign he said no, it was against 501c3. From the beginning. He is responsible for his own actions. He is a professor of government, knew it was wrong and did it anyway. He didn't seem to have a problem with any cover up, (his own actions included)IF THERE WAS ONE, until after he was fired and lost out on $18k + in lost wages. There are many problems with the lawsuit. I am very curious to see if this Richard Roberts/ Oral Roberts University lawsuit will even hold up, it reads more like a libel suit than a "wrongful terminated" suit, and seems as if it was motivated to inspire rumors, controversy, and disgrace rather than win an actual wrongful termination. The amount of slanderous statements is astounding, and I wonder legally how that will work for the plaintiffs. In fact, one of the plaintiffs, Tim Brooker, admits that he lied to the Internal Revenue Service in his own summation of the lawsuit! There was very little fact regarding the rules surrounding Tim Brooker's terms of employment, as he worked at Oral Roberts University for 7 years, and his wife 3. I was especially amused at the statement referring to how Paulita Brooker was "lured" to her position at ORU. Wow, lured into a position as a professor, how weak willed she must be. Just how, pray tell was she "lured"? Oral Roberts University is the only Spirit Filled University in the country that is accredited and has earned its reputation of being a quality school. No wants to see that lost or the students hurt. The lawsuit is just an extortion attempt to get some money from OR by professors who weree caught lieing to the IRS. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1789 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Well, sheesh, that settles it then. I mean if both Oral and Richard Roberts say these charges have no merit, then, by golly, it must be true! I mean, no self-interest there, right? ORU may be "spirit filled", but the question is, what spirit? "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 713 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.219.169 |
We'll see how it pans out. That bahama's trip sounds pretty fishy though. Kind of like what politicians do and then claim they're working. Something tells me that everything in this situation is not as it seems and that ORU will come out of this fairly unscathed. The university aside, it seems to me Oral and Richard Roberts have slipped back in their influence compared to a lot of the big time media preachers in the last few years. Probably after the death thing. I don't know why, but I was never all that excited about them, even when I was feeding myself on Kenneth Copeland and Hagin's stuff on a regular basis. I know one thing for sure. Their basketball team made the NCAA tourney last year, so that proves God is blessing them. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1790 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Damn straight! Along with the other 63 teams in the tournament! Of course, He blessed the Florida Gators the most! (OOh, that's hard for a Bulldog to write!!) | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4250 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Ooooo, you cussed. And I'll bet you drink beer. Conclusion: You are not saved. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 715 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.219.169 |
I'm sick and tired (oops, bad confession)of your judgemental attitude hatter. Everyone who has even the slightest knowledge of salvation knows that it depends on what KIND of beer you drink. I believe St. Paulie Girl is a good Christian brew. It's named after a saint. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4251 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
And the girl on the label is just a plain jane, she won't cause you to lust. I am glad we agree. Now let's go get a beer. And none of that funny charismatic stuff. I am a cold dead Baptist now, ya know. | ||
| inkorrekt Senior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 1100 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 69.15.52.194 |
JBKREMS: Cell phones and Bibles are not the same. When you made the comparison, you put the ministry and the business to gether. In your mind there is no difference between selling a Cell phone and offering a Bible. This means you are approving the unethical business practises of this "Grandiose Ministry". My concern is that as christians, we must mean what we say. When Oral made the offer, it is his obligation as a Christian ( More as a Minster) to fulfil his obligations. It is not my responsibility to call them. I had done may part of sending the cancelled Checks, If this minsitry ignored this, then is there something wrong or not? | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2111 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.185.227.102 |
Inkorrekt: I do NOT SELL cellphones. I buy them. However, so long as someone's used cell phone is on our price list, there is a guarantee they get PAID for it. That's the comparison. I am not a salesman. I'm a buyer. That being said, if someone offered me a Bible as part of their "ministry," and never followed through (which DOES show a lack of integrity and is a major issue), I would personally call the ministry and find out what is going on. In a way, I have a responsibility to enforce the offer. I agree with you we must mean what we say. That is why we have a department at my own company that handles situations like that, and rectifies situations. I agree that Oral needs to fulfill his obligation. But YOU also have a responsibility to ENFORCE his obligation on him, but calling the ministry and inquiring as to why you did not receive it. Sending a cancelled check is probably not the best way to handle that, though. The best way is to call the ministry and say, "Hey, I sent in so many dollars to receive a certain product, and I never received the product. What's up?" This is common sense, Inkorrekt. You do not send a cancelled check to get their attention. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1792 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
You know, the funny thing is a "St. Paullie girl" is a German euphemism for a, well, woman of the streets (you know, a hooker). What I heard is that it was a little German joke on Americans and that it is essentially Beck's with a different label - one that isn't even sold in Germany. All said and done, it's still not a bad beer!! Hatter, I thought FACTNet would asterisk out my cussing. Guess I was a d*mn dumb! | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4254 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
OK, I guess you are half saved now. We will work on the beer next. Had a Red Hook the other day, BTW. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 720 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.219.169 |
Leave it to mcm to have inside knowledge of even St. paulie Girl. A "wealth" (how appropo) of knowledge indeed. Half saved is better than not saved at all. I took a stand today. After the Miller Beer anti-Jesus SanFransisco thing, I had a Coors Lite today instead. Any sacrifice for the gospel for me. Seems like I heard the Coors guy was a Christian too, though even I couldn't start a brewery in good conscience despite my affinity for a beer or 2... or 3 now and then. Don't judge me please or I'll be forced to pull out that scripture from Romans matt used the other day. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1793 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
I'll take half saved at this point, but am afraid it is far less than that. Like the Apostle Paul, I'm afraid that "when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Unlike the Apostle, however, I do not nearly enough "keep under my body, and bring it into subjection..." The dangers is what he indicates following: "1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness." You can eat "spiritual meat" and drink "spiritual drink", but still be "disqualified" in the end. "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (Message edited by MCMStaff78 on October 19, 2007) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1986 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
TULSA, Okla. — Richard Roberts told students at Oral Roberts University yesterday that he did not want to resign as president of the scandal-plagued evangelical school, but that he did so because God insisted. God told him on Thanksgiving that he should resign the next day, Mr. Roberts told students in the university's chapel. "Every ounce of my flesh said 'no'" to the idea, Mr. Roberts said, but he prayed over the decision with his wife and his father, Oral Roberts, and decided to step down. Mr. Roberts said he wanted to "strike out" against the people who were persecuting him, and considered countersuing, but "the Lord said, 'Don't do that,'" he said. After submitting his resignation, he said, for "first time in 60 days peace came into my heart." Mr. Roberts spoke for only a few minutes and was applauded and cheered by students. He wiped away tears with a white handkerchief and his hands. "This has nearly destroyed my family, and it's nearly destroyed ORU," Mr. Roberts said. A lawsuit accuses Mr. Roberts of lavish spending at a time when the university faced more than $50 million in debt, including taking shopping sprees, buying a stable of horses and paying for a daughter to travel to the Bahamas aboard the university jet. Mr. Roberts has previously said that God told him to deny the allegations. The week the lawsuit was filed, Richard Roberts said that God told him: "We live in a litigious society. Anyone can get mad and file a lawsuit against another person whether they have a legitimate case or not. This lawsuit ... is about intimidation, blackmail, and extortion." Yesterday, Mr. Roberts said God told him he would "do something supernatural for the university" if he stepped down from the job he held at the 5,700-student school since 1993. Mr. Roberts said he would return to the full-time evangelistic healing ministry, "which is where my heart has always been," and told students and faculty that he will be praying for them every day of his life. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4340 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
God told him to deny the allegations, stay and fight.(implied) God told him to resign. God told him He would do something supernatural if he resigned. God told his daddy he would remove him from the earth at one point in the past. This schizo-concept of what "God told" these men causes me to really question so many charismatics who speak in such confident terms of what "God told" them to do. Is there any wonder, seeing this kind of thing play out over and over that these charismatic leaders have such limited credibility? |
