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40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 402
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.147.220.205
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 2:53 am: | 
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1 John 2:16- For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
My Ryrie study bible adds, lust of the eyes, which often leads to greed and covetousness. pride of life. Vainglory, display or boasting about one's possessions.
This scripture popped into my head today and I remembered how in Maranatha it was used all the time by everybody. It was used to justify the dating revelation ofcourse but it was also brought up all the time for everything else to. Bob, teaching materials, local pastors, fellow church members, present EN leaders always had that scripure ready and used it all the time. This is one of the ministries favorite scriptures.
It just struck me how ironic it was that for a scripture so widely quoted by everyone it was never really implemented. We institutionalized the Pride of Life it was a main foundation of the ministry like it is today in Every Nation. In fact you would be hard pressed to find a ministry that has as much of the Pride of Life as EN. "The elite", wealth, pride, status. Pride goes before the fall and pride is the real original sin in the universe. If that scripture had not been pounded into my head so much it would not be nearly as ironic. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 406
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.142.69.22
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 1:03 am: |
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Reading what 1984 went through, that was pretty harsh, the guy was already a Christian and Bob was already threating him with the unpardonable sin if he did not go along but hey he was a winner and targeted by men I was not and "only" targeted by the Holy Spirit who had multiple small miracles take place to get me to the only meeting in the afternoon I could attend (next to the meetings at night that I would never make the effort to attend). I was the only one saved that day the power of God was strong the next day it was not and visitors the next day made comments about it. I have been highly critical so I will tell you what I apprecitate about this ministry.
--------------I Appreciate----------------
I appreciate the fact that I was told to repent of my sins. I appreciate being told who would not inherit the kingdom of God and being given a list. I appreciate being told what repent meant. Repent was not just say your sorry but to actually turn away from wickedness, no one told me to do that in the methodist church I attended as a youth. I appreciate the ministry explaining what "Lord" meant, it meant master/boss (I am not to fond of the Russell interpretation of "Lord" which was complete controller)-before that the term Lord was a vague title you gave some English guy, it meant nothing really. I appreciate the ministry telling me to take responsibility for my sins, to bad leadership does not take their own advice to heart. I appreciate being told that being a christian meant serving Jesus even if everyone else turned their back on him. I do appreciate what this ministry does and I appreciate what Greg Ball did when the Holy Spirit birthed the church I went to in POWER.
How can upper leadership get it so damn right and so damn wrong all at the same time? EN leadership must be held to a higher standard you can't get a free pass like you have gotten for 20 years. That is the way it is. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 408
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.142.69.22
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 1:34 am: |
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Oh I almost forgot. Since this board has been taking a nautical theme. You know in the old days the albatross was a symbol of good luck. A sailor was not suppose to shoot an albatross it was bad luck. Navy men or pirates knew these rules, if you shot an albatross the dead bird would be tied around your neck in all its stench till it rotted away. This factnet board is that rotting albatross. Cheers! |
speakword2004
Advanced Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 526
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.210
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:55 am: |
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I s boasting from the pulpit common practise in EN?
1. Boasting about each others achievements?
2. Boasting about personal sacrifices?
3. Boasting about events?
4. Boasting about special people?
Is it done in ways less than obvious or is it blatant enough to make one think? |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 68.21.76.34
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:05 am: |
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Oh the pride of life. I learned this lesson a few year ago snowboarding and wiped out it messed me up for life. The ony way to aleveiate the pain today without surgery is to kneel over with my knees bent and feet under my butt and my head touching the floor in front of me. It's like get in the fetal position or like I'm praying. In fact it's the only thing that keeps me in prayer when I want to feel like I'm breaking the religeous dogma of having too pray everyday. It's been good for me though. I enjoy praying today and my back is only better when I do. Right now I have no pain. It's short lived so I'm constantly on my knees. What a trade off.
When the pride of my youth was gone it made me see how invisible I thought I was. In fact I wasn't folloing God then when it happened. I was night snowboarding in Lake Tahoe half buzzed. I was having the time of my life or so I thought. Prasie God. I'll kneel to him today--I thank him!
Jay the broke back (no just kidding-LOL-I better be careful saying this-hehe) |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 190
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:27 am: |
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speak: you forgot:
5. Boasting about the achievements and testimonies of other as if it has been their own! |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 250
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 68.21.76.34
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:34 am: |
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6. Boasting about about having Gods favor. |
40days40years
Advanced Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 762
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.146.34.131
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 5:16 am: |
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Most of the boasting 20 years ago came from the guys on the circuit who would blow in and blow out. Ofcourse if your gonna try to motivate people you want to tell them positive success stories in evangelization or whatever. I am glad you guys responded because I think the boastful pride of life is so very important to these guys that founded EN and they preached against it quite often. |
speakword2004
Advanced Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 536
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.210
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 5:26 am: |
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Yes, remember the sermons.
"Boasting about the achievements and testimonies of other as if it has been their own!"
Robert and others, do you think that the domination by the senior pastor et al of the service adds to this? In other words, do you think that the boasting is a deliberate tactic or a natural outflow of a deeper problem?
Let's get down to it, guys! |
40days40years
Advanced Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 763
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.146.34.131
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 5:28 am: |
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Were a bag of chips and all that. It is about pride, this ministry seems to impart a certain arrogance and pride in most of those it touches including myself (see how modest I am  ). This place, even this anti abuse board reeks of pride.
My cult leader can kick your cult leaders butt I bet I have thought that myself more than once when thinking about others on factnet LOL. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 194
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 5:35 am: |
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i think that there is a line between telling a testimony of another guy, to show how great God is, and boasting about a testimony of another guy to show how "anointed" or "blessed" the ministry/ leadership/ influence is ON the other guy, so he could achieve the things testified.
and this might be a personality problem. some people need to justify to themselfes and to their church that what they are doing is the right thing. so they use another mans(womans testimony to proof the validity of their ministry by this story.
its this success-driven mindset some ministers have. they need to "entertain" Gods people so that noone starts to question the ministry... |
speakword2004
Advanced Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 537
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.210
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 6:16 am: |
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Yes, there does seem to be that sense, but then again I do think that some leaders within EN are more cultic than others, especially in the States. |
another_brick_in_the_wall
Intermediate Member
Username: another_brick_in_the_wall
Post Number: 242
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.180.223.118
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 7:06 am: |
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i've posted this before... but i was reminded of this yesterday.
a few years into my MSI season, i was never directly discipled, per se. i guess i wasn't viewed as worthy enough (thank God). but i was mentored by a few gals who were more advanced spiritually than me (yeah, right).
one of the gals came over to visit and get to know me. we sat down to start. it was my nature to always focus a conversation on the other person. i prefer to listen. which i naturally did during this conversation.
after a brief lull...my mentor then changed hats and said it was time for me to receive a few critiques on a few things she observed in our conversation. one of the main items that i needed to work on was for me to begin to start talking about myself in conversations. my achievements, my history, my thoughts. me, me, me.
this is not part of my nature... but i did (sadly) begin to implement gal's advice.
one of the minor DNA that i acquired that i am slowly trying to graft out. |
speakword2004
Advanced Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 542
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.210
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 7:32 am: |
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Another Brick
This is a type of discipleship that I never saw here in South Africa. This whole idea of having a mentor or discipler governing one's behaviour and actions. Is this stuff endemic within EN in the Sates and Bethel in particular? |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 195
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 62.47.203.244
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 7:42 am: |
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its encouraged to do so.
we, my wife and i, started this - together with the purple book - at the end of my ministry with some people - i took 2 men into the group and she 2 ladies. but i was also opening up. didnt expect them to do somezhing i didnt want.
however - today i see it was wrong that we ever started with it at all.
at the time we started it, i was happy that i finally found a way to get imput into the life of my church-members. that was my motivation. my wife always was sceptical about it. alomg woth the people in the church...
today i understand.
this form of "opening everything up" in the group is a very dangerous thing. it depends much on the "discipler" if it ends it abuse and manipulation.
it was never my way to convince people of anything by manipulating. i learned very early in my Christian walk, that this is not Gods way to do things.
But its certainly dangerous stuff! and its - in my eyes - unethical to expect someone else to open all the inner things up for another person. especially when there is not a real and naturally grown relationship of thrust and friendship. |
another_brick_in_the_wall
Intermediate Member
Username: another_brick_in_the_wall
Post Number: 243
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.180.223.118
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 8:54 am: |
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speak,
the answer is yes. that type of structure was very common at bethel. you were always asked, "who is discipling you?" in order for a leader or whoever to ascertain how important you were. the greater status of your discipler reflected on your status.
i was asked a few times by pastors, "who is discipling you?" common question if you want to enter into certain aspect of ministry within the church.
we were always encouraged from the pulpit to "get under" somebody greater than you...
you get the picture. |
speakword2004
Advanced Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 543
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.210
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 11:03 am: |
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Another Brick
Having not experienced this level of hyper-authoritarianism or expressed this as "a leader" myself directly I find this very interesting. This deserves further investigation. You say this was common at Bethel. Is it still?
This would be in direct conflict with the directives issued by Murrell on this. Do you mean to say that in Rice Brook's church this kind of thing was practised?
I kind see all kinds of malpractises happening out of this. |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 180
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 1:23 pm: |
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Brick
I am so sorry that this happened to you. These "mentors" are so blinded, they do what was done to them. They believe this kind of pointed finger thing gets them points with leadership. I was very fortunate to have a pastor that walked a bit differently.....always warning our team NOT TO BE THE HOLY SPIRIT. He was always telling us to walk in love and mercy with people. I was confused that his message was not mainstream EN. I'm grateful now. And I get it.
But your story is one I've heard countless times. The joke at EN was if someone invites you to lunch, it's not good, This means you're going to be "talked to."' I never ran my cell this way. I was like a rebellious "haven" for the bruised. I refused to play those games. I did it one time and it was enough of a hard lesson for me.
I pray that this experience has increased your own level of mercy toward others, knowing how very important EDIFYING people is and that we are not given rights to tear people down. Somehow this ministry just skips over the LOVE part, don't they?
Dust |
another_brick_in_the_wall
Intermediate Member
Username: another_brick_in_the_wall
Post Number: 244
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.180.223.118
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 9:21 pm: |
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Thank you for the encouraging post, Dust. Thankfully my former mindset has been slowly melting away. It has been good to be out for 2 years now...and just concentrate on breathing again. And thinking normally again. No longer viewing outside people as prizes to snatch up...but just as people.
That is such a blessing that your pastor provided that sense of entitlement and protection over you like that. Love and mercy are tremendous blessings to receive. Good for you that you didnt play the games.
Two years have passed for me since my exodus... I can say now that my mercy, compassion and action have almost fully-returned. It feels so lovely to want to do stuff for people...to be a blessing to them... unconditionally.
Amen. |
lc_20
Advanced Member
Username: lc_20
Post Number: 596
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 85.195.123.29
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
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Brick,
That was an interesting post from you. It is a blessing to see the journey of your heart as you recover. I have been on a similar journey - not quite where you are yet. God Bless and thanks for sharing. |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 183
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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Brick,
I SO get what you said about people being "prizes" to snatch up, and getting a return of mercy and compassion.
I have contacts with some pastors that were in Maranatha. It's not all black/white.....they are also feeling more compassion...more freedom. This is why I believe in the restoration of the individuals, just not the restoration of the "ministry." It's like a beast that no one can tame.
I'll write more on this in the future. I'm waiting for some people to calm down on this board. |
jazzy
New member
Username: jazzy
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 86.144.200.174
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 5:44 pm: |
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One comment....if we look at Christ as our example, who was he most likely to get at? The disciples? Not really, even when they mess up he has patience. The crowds? No...The poor and sick? No. Time and time again he shakes up the religious people and we Christians are they. God's love, mercy and wisdom are infinite, rich and perfect and none of us are ever in a position to rightly discern others or even our own hidden faults. Only God is in this position and if he gives us any unavoidable commands it is just this: Love God, Love others. I love remembering where it says in the word "love builds up" Don't forget that when someone, Christian or otherwise tears you down that there are evil forces at work and of course we all need accountability, but God is love and his aim, through his word, Spirit, people, world is to build us up and build others up NOT tear us down. Please God help me and all other Christians remember this before we launch into any more discernment/Christian advice/"loving" correction |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 2344
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 207.62.190.7
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 9:20 pm: |
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jazzy you said: Only God is in this position and if he gives us any unavoidable commands it is just this: Love God, Love others.
O.K I have a question, how do you apply what you wrote above? How do you get an abusive group to reform? I mean it seems to me that abusive groups take advantage of the commands to love and to forgive and to not throw stones or tear down...etc. Their counting on people taking your advice so those at the top don't have to change.
Love and pray and trust God to change the problems with a group that controls and uses those scriptures to control? That plan does not seem to work all that well with an MCM/EN type of group. Don't you think an aggressive approach has the best dividends when dealing with EN? They really don't have that much respect for the nice gentle doormats anyway. |