| Author | Message | ||
     nina_s (nina_s) Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.191.192 |
Interested in hearing from anyone who knew John Bevere when he was an associate pastor under Benny Hinn. As far as I know, Bevere has a B.A. in mechanical engineering from Purdue, and has no seminary training whatsoever. In addition, he twists Scriptures to fit what he wants to say---heavy on submission to authority, and heavy on tongues. In 2003 he paid himself $203,000 salary, and I'm not sure how much his wife's and his oldest son's salaries were. Thanks! Nina | ||
| lov_faith_hope (lov_faith_hope) Member Username: lov_faith_hope Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 72.130.227.113 |
He is very Spirit led and has a lot of integrity. He turned down lucrative secular book deals after being chastened and testifies about it. The Lord blessed him financially afterwards. His wife was abusive to him physically and verbally and she had a transformation and testifies too. He did the children's ministry at Benny Hinn's former church too I think. He did a lot of service oriented things like picking up dry cleaning and driving people back and forth the airport and meanial things for years. He did them cheerfully and faithfully and then God promoted him! Why does it bother you that he has a normal income for someone who is a professional? He has written some excellent books that are correct and spiritually effective. He has a very good ministry against Jezebel spirituality and exposes how it manifests or operates in and against the Body of Christ. What is wrong with tongues? What seminary did Matthew, Peter, Luke and John go to? Billy Graham? Mother Teresa? Marilyn Hickey? Joyce Meyer? T.D. Jakes? Oral Roberts? Jentzen Franklin?  | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
I have seen him personally and have two of his books. The Man preaches on the fear of the Lord as reverance to God the father and we the church must have that! as far as tongues goes he did not say the word one time in his message to us in Monterey ca, or did he make any great demannds in his books to speak in tongues. Nina maybe you should write him a letter and ask john Bevere all your concerns about his money and his wife before you make statements that you don't know anything about. So nina how much money do you make a year? and how is your marriage if you are Married? Oh yea, you have the right not to answer me I won't be offened... But j. Bevere doesn't have to answer you ether.... will you be offened? | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 913 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
$203,000 is highly OVERPAYMENT in ratio to the size of his ministry. It is the kind of money that a CEO makes running a $30 million dollar company or a huge international non profit organization like United Way. Bevere doesn't come close to 10% of that amount. The perks from pastoring ie. taxes, and house listed as a parsonage plus expense accounts make him running his small organization church OVERPAID. But then who is going to stop him since he has a rubber stamp board of yes men? He preaches heavy authority of the pastor and husband yet doesn't practice it himself. That is called a hypocrite. People giving to these fools and supporting these bad stewards of money, with crazy so called revelations that vere from the Bible are just as at fault for supporting bad ground. | ||
| nina_s (nina_s) Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.183.202 |
I have talked to John Bevere Ministries and they were quite evasive about Bevere's resume, and couldn't even tell me where he got his Biblical training. As far as my personal information, IF I had a public ministry---I can guarantee that my financial records would be open to the public for close scrutiny. This is part of the witness to the world: to be above reproach; to be transparent with both resume and finances. I would not allow myself to be introduced at churches and speaking engagements as "reverend" when I don't hold that degree. Bevere's book UNDERCOVER states that we are like horses that must be broken; basically that one should submit to a pastor EVEN IF HE IS WRONG; that we need permission from the pastor to leave that church for another, and so on. We are neither horses nor under such heavy authority that we cannot make choices for ourselves! God has given us great brains and free wills---with which we can study the Scriptures for ourselves, confront error the way the Bereans did, and generally uphold God's Word as we share with others. God did not intend for us to submit to controling pastors who are in error, but to make choices for ourselves! Confront error with love and truth---there is no mediator between the Father and us, save Jesus Christ! BTW I am a public school teacher with a master's degree, certified to teach in four separate disciplines at the K-12 level, and I have worked hard to make $57,000 a year. In addition, I am paying off my student loans faithfully. No, the Apostles hadn't gone to seminary, though I suspect that they (like all Jewish men of the time) had learned their Torah well. The Apostle Paul was a learned man, speaking many foreign tongues as well as being a citizen of Rome. Are we not supposed to "study to show thyself approved?!" In today's world that probably means college and seminary, studying Biblical languages, as well as Old and New Testament themes, evangelism and church management. Having a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering, picking up dry cleaning and running people to the airport does not qualify one for public ministry. Where is the substantial Biblical study one should have behind a ministry? Nina | ||
| nina_s (nina_s) Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.184.162 |
Marrying a tv producer does not qualify one for a ministry, nor does it qualify that wife to be a Biblical authority. John and Lisa Bevere have set up quite a money-making enterprise for themselves. Since when should we make "big bucks" off of Jesus?! Bevere, Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Oral Roberts and many others are in it for the money, and have their family members on staff at exorbitant salaries, as well as giving them fancy houses, possessions, elegant cars, expensive clothing and so on. This is not the example ofpoverty and communal Christian society as evidenced by the first century Christians (our example), and smacks of usury, don't you think? Nina | ||
| trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
nina_s john Bevere and his wife lisa are friends with one of worse pastor impersonators robb thompson of family harvest church where they preach regularly. Look at the Family Harvest thread, and you will see the same mode of bad stewardship operations expensive jewlery, excessive salaries, over five boob jobs for pastors wives, daughters and staff, $5,000 suits, collection of $30,000 Rolex's, $100k- $500k cars, $3 Million houses airplanes etc.. These cult pastors push heavy CONTROL submission to authority. They preach Gag orders, no questions, never disclosing financial information etc.. The worse is preaching CULT fear SHEPHERDING gestapo type tactics. They state you are not under Gods protection if you leave. They have to preach this FEAR doctrine in order to CONTROL the people and their money. FEAR not Faith is their motivator. They preach beyond the Bible that you are CURSED if you don't give to them. The BIBLE STATES otherwise. Gal 3:13 says Jesus set us "free from the Curse." Giving is a Godly principle but only to GOOD STEWARDS. Planting money (seed) in bad ground will yield no harvest for others or yourself, only the con-trol pastor. Godly pastors of succesful ministries having reasonable salaries and open financial statements is fine. The Bible is clear about not being a minister for "Filthy Lucre" and "financial gain". These other abusive people are not ministers or pastors but impersonators. Many of them with FAKE doctorates from internet diploma mills. True ministry office of the teacher and pastor is one who walks in love and like a good shepherd, cares for and hangs out with the sheep. Not these aloof authority fear spouters. "You shall know them by their fruit"... God doesn't yield this kind of bad fruit. Read the Family harvest thread and you will find all the same things along with good information to combat these SPIRITUAL ABUSES. Don't throw away God or church because of these few abusers. There are GOOD PASTORS who make 50-100k plus per year. Their churches are thriving, open to dialogue, wonderful loving spiritually FREE places, with good spirtual food and Romans 8:14 teaching people to be "LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD," and not some man. People and families are being saved, set free, maturing in the word. | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
"Bevere's book UNDERCOVER states that we are like horses that must be broken; basically that one should submit to a pastor EVEN IF HE IS WRONG; that we need permission from the pastor to leave that church for another, and so on." .............. Nina do you agree with everything your pastor says? Is your pastor perfect? Does your pastor make mistakes? Or do you when you don't agree with Him, attack the ministry by telling people in the church that YOUR PASTOR IS WRONG? How do you handle when you have a disagreement with your church leaders? from the books that I have read by John Bevere( and I agree with your statement above) and from what I have seen and listened of the two times He was speaking,it was about immature Christians who would attack there pastor because they were not: used in their gifts, or honored because of their talents, Not given the time to preach as much as they think they should be. So when they leave the church they attack, lie and try to take away the young in the Lord. That is wrong!!! Should every pastor open there pulpit to anyone in the church member ship?... NO! are there abuses by church leaders Yes there are. How are we to handle it??? According to the word of God? | ||
| trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 326 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cs1 Did you genuflect and kiss his ring in his presence? That's the whole problem. People are following men not GOD. What terible abuse bevere spues. Bevere has been approached as has thompson and others countless times by one then two and then by many. Each time these arrogant pompous abusers do not take Godly instruction. They do not have anyone or any board that they are committed to for correction. They make people spiritually disabled. Instead all Christians are to seek God and be led by His Spirit, and word that are one. Romans 8:14 He preaches heavy submission to pastors as does robb thompson...."that one should submit to a pastor EVEN IF HE IS WRONG; that we need permission from the pastor to leave that church for another. No one needs permission of a church pastor or any other person to leave a church, or to go along with a pastor when they are wrong. That is just stupidity and ignorance gone to seed. Run from these cult control freaks. This is going back under the rule of mankind. Following men above God, and the Spirit of God within us. We are only to seek Gods will. Mt 6:33 We are to have no other Gods above the God. Jesus is the (only) way, the truth the life and the light of the world. Following some person puts you back in the religious temple following the pharisees, the rabbi, or the Catholic church following catechisms, the Pope, the Cardinal and the priest.(all imperfect men). How stupid people are to subject their will over to some man or woman to tell them when to do anything. Pastors put themselves on pedestals, and knowingly allow others to put them on pedestals to follow them. This is blatant sin. All ministry gifts are to be helping others find relationship and direction from God, in His word, by His Spirit, not themselves. These guys are imposters.Not called and not annointed. | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.38 |
"cs1 Did you genuflect and kiss his ring in his presence? That's the whole problem. People are following men not GOD." "How stupid people are to subject their will over to some man or woman to tell them when to do anything. Pastors put themselves on pedestals, and knowingly allow others to put them on pedestals to follow them. This is blatant sin." ................. no I did not kiss his ring LOL nor will i kiss yours. I agree that no one should submit to a pastor EVEN IF HE IS WRONG;or that we need permission from the pastor to leave that church for another. but would agree that people in the church today have a problem with respect of Pastors who are doing a good work? are all catholic priest sexual petafiles? are all pentacostals wrong inthier doctrine? I here what your saying but from what I have seen and herd of J. bevere the submission to the leadership is out of respect to the office of minstry they hold. again you say that "Bevere has been approached as has thompson and others countless times by one then two and then by many. Each time these arrogant pompous abusers do not take Godly instruction. They do not have anyone or any board that they are committed to for correction." Well if that is truth, He is wrong but, to prove that is something else. you saying it does not make it true. So when you get the chance to prove what you say is TRUE please do so, maybe Jesus will Kiss your ring | ||
| trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 327 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cs1 Go and read the family harvest thread posts. Thompson is bevere's friend in crime.(Lisa is speaking there coming up soon). You will see the tactics these fools use. You don't serve under these fools. You don't see the underhanded evil plotting they do to undermine, pressure, discredit and slander anyone who leaves their church, or questions where the MONEY GOES. They have counseled countless spouses to leave and divorce their betrothed who questions their money use, or wants to leave their church. They use peer pressure, lies, and deception disguised as 'submission to authority heresy' to try to lead people who have a hard time dividing the word. These are seductive controlling influences and spirits. I have first hand knowledge of their demonic FEAR tactics. They tell us we are CURSED not under the Pastors covering if we leave. They say the Pastor has full authority and we giving members of the church have no right to financial statements showing use of the non-profit offering money. While the pastor wears $30,000 - $65,000 watches, drives $100k-$600k cars, lives in $3 mill houses, and brags about his $6,000 Brioni suits from the stage. How stupid can these fools be and still breathe? | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.44 |
"How stupid people are to subject their will over to some man or woman to tell them when to do anything. Pastors put themselves on pedestals, and knowingly allow others to put them on pedestals to follow them. This is blatant sin." ........... So as a person serving their Country in the Navy and following our leaders that many may believe is against God's word to him that knows to do right and doesn't that is SIN should we just bad mouth our leaders or should everyone just leave the country? and if the answer is yes!!! I ask you why did Daniel respect ole Nebuchadnezzar Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. What God gave him Nebuchadnezzar a kingdom??? well after Counsel has been given to Nebuchadnezzar or j. bevere it is God who will bring order to Daniel 4:32 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.: 33The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws]. So after you have told them what thus sayth the Lord it is up to God to bring them down and he will just as he did with so Many before. We must kepp our eyes on the Lord jesus christ. and if you where to leave every church that did something wrong well don't go to church stay home and hide. what are you doing to solve the problem? | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.43 |
the harvest thread??? ok I will read it | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.37 |
the harvest thread??? ok I will read it | ||
| trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 328 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cs1 Complacent people that say nothing are the reasons these people who say much exist and continue to keep spreading evil IN THE FLESH. For evil to exist is for good men to do nothing. "The wise man sees the trouble down the road and avoids it. The fool is destroyed by it" Proverbs You are your brothers keeper. I'm not bringing bevere down I'm warning others so they have there eyes open to the evil and avoid being brought down by him. Im not talking about the armed services. Although even there it is lawful to disobey direct orders that are unreasonable. Uniform Code of Military Justice. I'm not going to list the dozens of Godly people in the Bibile, both lay people and leaders in the old and new testament that warned others and rebuked others publically. Look them up in the other thread I mentioned. There is a long list. Paul a later follower of Jesus even rebuked Peter an eyewitness close disciple of Jesus. How can they know about the evil to avoid unless unless someone tell them? To see and do nothing and to not warn them is a greater evil. | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 178 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
"What seminary did Matthew, Peter, Luke and John go to? Billy Graham? Mother Teresa? Marilyn Hickey? Joyce Meyer? T.D. Jakes? Oral Roberts? Jentzen Franklin? " Matthew, Peter, Luke and John didn't have to go to seminary they had JESUS!!!!! He taught them all that they needed to know. I am hoping that you aren't even thinking about putting Jakes, Roberts, Hickey, Ranklin and the rest of that crew in the same category as the Apostles. That would be totally outrageous. This is in response to lov_faith_ (Message edited by gsrh on March 08, 2006) | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) with the above statement I say amen and agree with that above post being yours not gsrh LOL . | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
lol.... But I still say that the Apostles didn't need to go to seminary. They had Jesus as an instructor. No seminary could even come close to the knowledge that was shared with the Apostles. Graham, Jakes, Hickey, Roberts, etc. are all frauds. People have been trying to correct them for years and they continue on. But hey..work out your own salvation. I know who I serve!!  | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 180 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
Unless you believe that Jesus taught them a bunch of crap and the seminaries are a better source than Jesus???? Hmmmm....  | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
no of course not gsrh but for someone who says Billy Graham is a fraud and etc which = everyone that is like him well I’m sure you received so much more from the Lord Jesus Christ then Billy graham could ever have huh? “I know who I serve!" LOL yea right Minster means: ONE WHO SERVES God and others. who have you WON to the Lord? 1981 I asked the Lord Jesus Christ to come into my heart and I confessed that I’m a sinner and need God the father’s salvation by way of Cross from the Redeeming Blood that was shed over 2000 years ago by grace not of works. 2006 08march my family and I serve the Lord and KNOW that Jesus Christ is the only way, the only truth and the only life. … It was Spartan stadium 1981 san Jose ca, at a Billy Graham crusade ALL GLORY to GOD yes … a fool has said in their heart there is no God. For you to say that Billy graham is a fraud is to say that God did not use him and that is to say to me “ there is no God” you know the answer to that gsrh????  | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
They were referring to Billy's son. I have won many to the Lord, but I don't need to justify or quantify that. so you think Billy Graham is God? | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 182 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
Go back and READ!! lolol....I love assumptions. Makes my day go smoother. | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.42 |
no can you read ??? I said that God used him | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 183 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
They don't teach reading in public school. | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 184 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
Do I know the answer to what? You asked me if I knew the answer to something but I am not sure what the question is????? | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.37 |
to bad it's a requiremnt in seminaries no wonder your not big on them LOL | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 185 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
FYI min·is·ter Audio pronunciation of "minister" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn-str) n. Abbr. Min. 1. 1. One who is authorized to perform religious functions in a Christian church, especially a Protestant church. 2. Roman Catholic Church. The superior in certain orders. 2. A high officer of state appointed to head an executive or administrative department of government. 3. An authorized diplomatic representative of a government, usually ranking next below an ambassador. 4. A person serving as an agent for another by carrying out specified orders or functions. | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 186 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
I have no problem with seminaries, just with the idiots on TBN. | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 187 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
Reading is overrated. I prefer humming. | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 188 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
They need to go to seminary....better yet, READ the Bible. They have the Bible on CD/DVD now....ooooooooooooh.  Instead of giving love gifts, I may send them a digital Bible. | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
Hebrew for 08334to minister, serve, minister to Greek for 12471) to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon a) to minister to one, render ministering offices to 1) to be served, ministered unto b) to wait at a table and offer food and drink to the guests, 1) of women preparing food c) to minister i.e. supply food and necessities of life 1) to relieve one's necessities (e.g. by collecting alms), to provide take care of, distribute, the things necessary to sustain life 2) to take care of the poor and the sick, who administer the office of a deacon 3) in Christian churches to serve as deacons d) to minister 1) to attend to anything, that may serve another's interests 2) to minister a thing to one, to serve one or by supplying any thing again ONe who serves ok | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.44 |
minister occurs 100 times in 98 verses and over 30 times in the new testament | ||
| trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 329 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Did you say cemetery? There are some good practical hands on Bible Colleges. The problem is not in lack of degrees but in "lack of KNOWLEDGE" knowning Gods will and calling. Trying to operate in a ministry office of a Pastor, evangelist, teacher and not being called to this ministry. "You are destroyed for a for a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE" Hosea 4:6 | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
that is very true trsrinheaven, that is why I got my burning before my learning and wisdom is the proper use of knowlege | ||
| gsrh (gsrh) Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 189 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
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| nina_s (nina_s) Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.190.145 |
Wow! I sure opened up a can of worms! I believe that the integral point upon which we all agree is that one who is a minister knows the Word, studies the Word, seeks wisdom and knowledge and truth, gets the Godly counsel of other Christians, and is a LOVING SERVANT to others. After all, the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE! Regarding Billy Graham: As a teen I sang at three different crusades and heard a Biblical message and watched so many people accept the Lord---it was awesome!! Franklin Graham was wild in his younger years, and then came back to the Lord---I am familiar with his Samaritan's Purse project. Does someone have information on inappropriate ministry practices, of which I am unaware? I find the comment about "Jesus kissing someone's ring" offensive. Let's take it down a notch everyone, as I believe we are all seeking the truth in the Name of the Lord. I believe we don't want others to be deceived by charlatans---therefore, like the Bereans, we will study our Scriptures and expose falsehood where we find it. Amen? Nina | ||
| nina_s (nina_s) Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 110 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.190.145 |
Wow! I sure opened up a can of worms! I believe that the integral point upon which we all agree is that one who is a minister knows the Word, studies the Word, seeks wisdom and knowledge and truth, gets the Godly counsel of other Christians, and is a LOVING SERVANT to others. After all, the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE! Regarding Billy Graham: As a teen I sang at three different crusades and heard a Biblical message and watched so many people accept the Lord---it was awesome!! Franklin Graham was wild in his younger years, and then came back to the Lord---I am familiar with his Samaritan's Purse project. Does someone have information on inappropriate ministry practices, of which I am unaware? I find the comment about "Jesus kissing someone's ring" offensive. Let's take it down a notch everyone, as I believe we are all seeking the truth in the Name of the Lord. I believe we don't want others to be deceived by charlatans---therefore, like the Bereans, we will study our Scriptures and expose falsehood where we find it. Amen? Nina | ||
| trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 331 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Jesus said "You shall know them (who and what is of God)by the fruit they bear" Good fruit - from God Bad Fruit - Not from God The gifts and callings of God are without repentance. God can use a donkey and the rocks but chooses imperfect fallible people. No one is perfect but there are better ways. God looks at the heart. There are those that flatter and say some good things but deceive with their mouth but in their heart they are ravenous wolves. God is good satan is evil. James 1 Let no man say (that God sends, causes, allows or uses evil as his teaching tool). For God cannot, and does not do evil. Evil is not in Gods nature or make up. God is Love.1John "Every good gift comes from God and comes down from God who never varies, or waivers" (nor is schizophrenic). God is love and does only Good. Satan (the thief) is all evil and does only evil(deceiving, stealing, killing and destroying.) John 10:10 Don't blame God for the things of satan, and wrong bad choices of people. The Bible says "Give no place to the devil" "Resist(fight violently against) the devil and he will flee" James 4:7 | ||
| cs1 (cs1) Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.42 |
"I find the comment about "Jesus kissing someone's ring" offensive" cs1 Did you genuflect and kiss his ring in his presence? That's the whole problem. People are following men not GOD. ......... then you should have not said ithuh? but your right lets bring it down a notch If I have offended you forgive me | ||
| nina_s (nina_s) Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.173.54 |
cs1--- I didn't say it! Nina | ||
| trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 333 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
NINA, Let me correct WHERE you error nina. YOU SAID SOMEONE SAID "Jesus kissing someone's ring" you found offensive NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS KISSING A RING. You were offended for nothing. WHAT WAS SAID WAS ABOUT 'KISSING (HEAVY AUTHORITY PREACHER) BEVERE'S RING AND BOWING TO HIM' NOT JESUS. You misunderstood so now you can drop it. You sound like the famous Abbott and Costello comedy So Who's on first?, I don't know?, No he's on second, etc. | ||
| cybermom (cybermom) Intermediate Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 473 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
Sorry, trs/u1, but nina is right. Someone posted about kissing a ring (as they would the pope), and the response was about Jesus kissing his ring. But whoever posted deleted it. Too bad - if someone regrets posting something, apologize and repent, but don't try to hide it like a coward and a hypocrite. So,U1,you can tone down the sarcasm and snide remarks because you are the one who is wrong. Cybermom | ||
| cs1 Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 326 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.11 cs1 "Did you genuflect and kiss his ring in his presence? That's the whole problem. People are following men not GOD." ............. That is who said it ok and who U1? | ||
| cybermom Intermediate Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 474 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
cs1 I'm not criticizing you; I was responding to ultimate 1/trsinheaven (they're the same person) and his unnecessary attack on nina. I didn't have a problem with your post, but couldn't find the response to it anywhere. That's all. Happy posting. Cybermom | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 190 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
lolol  | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 347 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
cybermom, RU SERIOUS? lol. ATTACK? What attack? Whose attack on who? PLease define your idea of an ATTACK so we all can see your idea of an ATTACK? What ATTACK are you referring to? I wasn't critical, derogatory or ATTACKING? I was in fact making light of and clearing up a silly misunderstanding, that was misread. I cleared up what Nina and now you are wrong about. There never was nor ever existed some phantom post that you claim was deleted; or as you say; "response was about Jesus kissing his ring. But whoever posted deleted it." I'm not your enemy here. Too much drama ..... "Me thinks you doth protest tooooooooo much". As grsh said lolol..... and Who's on first? | ||
| cs1 Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.41 |
What is on second | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 351 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
I don't know.... Third Base! | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 191 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
Grand Slam! | ||
| cybermom Intermediate Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 479 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
 trs NINA, Let me correct WHERE you error nina. YOU SAID SOMEONE SAID "Jesus kissing someone's ring" you found offensive NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS KISSING A RING. You were offended for nothing. WHAT WAS SAID WAS ABOUT 'KISSING (HEAVY AUTHORITY PREACHER) BEVERE'S RING AND BOWING TO HIM' NOT JESUS. You misunderstood so now you can drop it. You sound like the famous Abbott and Costello comedy So Who's on first?, I don't know?, No he's on second, etc. Flaming, bold AND sarcasm - hmmm, not an attack? OK. No problem. I won't be responding to you in the future since you seem incapable of rational, adult conversation. When asked direct questions you evade and misdirect - what's the point of trying to discuss anyting with you? BTW, I believe victory lane apologized for his critical/sarcastic posts (at least to me), as did many of us on the FHC thread. So if that is under the Blood, why repost it? Praying that you'll find better things to do with your time, as I am planning to do. | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 353 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
CYBERMOM, You are being anal retentive and not admitting your mistake. You avoid explaining your (HOW WE MUST) 'walk on egg shells attitude.' Lighten up. Cs1 and I both made a joke and light of Nina's true wrong ATTACK and NOW YOURS. PLease define your idea of an ATTACK so we all can see your idea of an ATTACK? What ATTACK are you referring to? I wasn't critical, derogatory or ATTACKING? I was in fact making light of and clearing up a silly misunderstanding, that was misread. PS Nina has no problem being corrected to the truth. WHO R U? Ninas manager. You just butted in without the correct facts. We make a joke. Sorry you get offended for nothing, and so easily. Please forgive us oh 'so above us all condscending unable to adimit when you are wrong one. | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 116 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.183.97 |
Okay, guys, let's get back to the topic: John Bevere's false teaching. Who has more info on John Bevere's resume since Purdue to present? Who knows where he received Bible training? If someone referred to you as "reverend" or "doctor" and you weren't, wouldn't you politely correct him/her and put your resume out front for all to examine?! Why is Bevere keeping his association with Hinn a secret? In earlier versions of UNDERCOVER he had a recommendation from Hinn. Actually, tears, there WAS a post about Jesus kissing Bevere's ring---at this point who cares about being right---as long as we can come together and seek God's truth, rightly dividing it from the error of the cultists. Nina | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 358 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
nina, To clarify for five of us here. When did this 'Jesus ring' post occur? Before my March 8, Post Number: 326 or after? What was the user name of the person posting? | ||
| cs1 Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.37 |
Me I said it. In responce to trsrinheaven who said :cs1 "Did you genuflect and kiss his ring in his presence? That's the whole problem. People are following men not GOD." Post Number: 326 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 ......... I CS1 said" no I did not kiss his ring LOL nor will i kiss yours. I agree that no one should submit to a pastor EVEN IF HE IS WRONG;or that we need permission from the pastor to leave that church for another. but would agree that people in the church today have a problem with respect of Pastors who are doing a good work? are all catholic priest sexual petafiles? are all pentacostals wrong in thier doctrine? I here what your saying but from what I have seen and herd of J. bevere the submission to the leadership is out of respect to the office of minstry they hold. again you say that "Bevere has been approached as has thompson and others countless times by one then two and then by many. Each time these arrogant pompous abusers do not take Godly instruction. They do not have anyone or any board that they are committed to for correction." Well if that is truth, He is wrong but, to prove that is something else. you saying it does not make it true. So when you get the chance to prove what you say is TRUE please do so, (maybe Jesus will Kiss your ring) | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 362 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
I know cs1 in response to MY post... Thanks for finally AGAIN telling these people to READ and wake up and quit yelling at us over nothing. Nina and Cybermom said it was erased which it was not, then cbm butted in, ranted and raved over it and falsely called it an attack. It must just be the kind of day they had??????? Abbott and Costello were pretty funny in their day. | ||
| gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 193 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.167.0.42 |
They were way ahead of their time!! This has been one of the most enjoyable threads I have read in a while. lolol Keep up the good work!!! | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.182.2 |
Sorry, but we are in the middle of finals week, and making creative writing books, etc.---ah, the life of a teacher! How 'bout we move on?! Re: earlier. If I disagree with my pastor, I tell him so and we discuss it. Bevere in UNDERCOVER presents THE congregation (not "some immature Christians") as being in direct opposition to the pastor. Now I do not believe that most congregations are laying in wait to ambush and destroy their pastors! In addition, he states that one may not change churches without the permission of the pastor! Now that is utterly ridiculous. God is our authority and we are free to worship wherever we feel He leads us. Nina | ||
| trsrinheaven Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 370 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
bevere like most INSECURE PASTORS is IN FEAR. He claims to teach faith yet operates and teaches FEAR. Examples of their UNBLBIICAL AUTHORITY usually is centered in money. Such as in his giving motivated by OBLIGATION for FEAR that God will curse you. Gal 3:13 says "Jesus redeemed us from the curse..." Jesus and the Bible are right not bevere. Other areas are their wrong submission in most all areas. The Bible states to "submit yourself unto God". "submit one to another", and "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female .....for we are all one in Christ". The word submission to men, is wrongly wielded as some big stick to keep you out of reltionship with God. The devils bif trick lie. He teaches like some fear filled others heavy authority and worship of the Pastor (as if he is above others). These are classic CONTROL, manipualtion, and shepherding TACTICS to keep people under control. This leads to disabled IMMATURE Christians who can't think for themselves. Hebrews 5:12 They have relationships with God through a pastor not direct with God. They wind up following a man not God. The put the pastor in the position of God, above God. They have not developed themselves to HEAR FROM GOD AND THE VOICE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Romans 8:14 "As many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD". | ||
| cs1 Member Username: cs1 Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 138.163.0.42 |
I here what you all are saying and I have the book “UNDERCOVER” but in all fairness I must say that the fear he spoke to us about in Monterey ca, was of Reverence to the Lord God. Not to play with God or try to pimp God into heaven. Us Church folk think we can get drunk, fornicate, lie and as long as we ask Jesus to forgive us we can get into heave yes this is true BUT NOT IF YOU Practice SIN you can not pimp God into letting you go to heaven and have your Heart filled with darkness, you can’t serve to masters love one hate the other. What this really comes down to is many in the church still rely on man to give them the word , a word, or tell them what their ears are inching to Here!!!. Well Jesus Christ is the only way, the only truth, and the only Life. Not being a Baptist, Pentecostal, catholic, good works, lying, pimping God or a race of people that has been abused more than other groups. Nope, an’t going to get it done, it is Jesus and only his work on the cross. If we feared the Lord God, and I mean not the hell fire and brimstone if you don’t do this or that, No I mean God the self existence one All mighty all powerful all knowing and all forgiving and Holy chose to express himself in and through the Lord Jesus. God wrote a book study it,I must tell you that it doesn’t contain the word of God … It is the word of God! | ||
| skylarked_past New member Username: skylarked_past Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 65.194.20.242 |
who cares about the salary or the purchases these people make....? if i had all the money in the world, i would give it to john bevere because his teaching has ministered to me.....the same goes for anyone else who has affected my life, famous or not, preacher or not...... money doesn't matter in eternity.....it is a tool here on earth......my focus is the advancement of god's kingdom.......millions of souls are slipping into hell right now, and i'm here posting in the world's stupidest forum.....i feel so accomplished..... (Message edited by skylarked_past on October 24, 2006) | ||
| jbkrems New member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.139.7 |
I agree... John Bevere is a wonderful Bible teacher, and exhorter... he really has the ministry of a NT prophet, challenging the believer. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 558 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
I have heard him speak on several occasions. At first, he was very harsh, to the point of screaming at us. I was very uncomfortable during these tirades. His submission/don't-leave-a-church-without-the-pastor's-approval teaching kept at least one family I know in an abusive, cultic church for many years. I don't believe in obeying ANY man unquestioningly. Only Jesus deserves that. Have any of you read the story of Corrie Ten Boom? She and her family were sent to Nazi concentration camps during WWII for hiding Jews in their home. Their pastor told them to obey the government and not hide Jews, but they (Corrie, her sister and her father) felt that since God was calling them to do this, they should obey Him rather than the pastor. Her testimony is wonderful - get The Hiding Place to read the whole story. My point is that our first responsibility and obedience is to God. Of course, we should have teachable spirits, not be rebellious, but if a leader's direction goes contrary to what we feel the Lord is telling us, we should obey Him; if we're wrong, He'll let us know. | ||
| jbkrems New member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.139.7 |
Cybermom: I agree with you, and I think its very hard to draw the line, regarding leaving a church without the pastor's approval. However, I think that what Bevere says could be re-phrased slightly, and make even a better point, because someone needs to take a stand against the tide, where people believe things like, "I can go to whatever church I please," and "If I am offended, my feelings get hurt, or I don't like the preaching, music style, etc.," that I can go to another church across town. Perhaps there is a balance here. Yes, in an abusive situation then you need to leave such a church, but if you are flippantly switching churches, and God is not un-planting you from a church with abuse, as I described above, I think John Bevere is right. Here are a few Scriptures to consider: 1 Cor. 12:18, "God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired." I believe God chooses our church for us, not the other way around. Also, Psalm 92:12-13, "The righeous man will flourish like the palm tree... Planted in the house of the Lord, they will flourish in the courts of our God." I believe this passage indicates that once we are planted in the church God has planted us in, then we will flourish if we go there, and if we catch the vision of the house, which is important, too. However, as you say, is subordinate to obeying God. It takes obeying God to do what I've described above. I'm glad that my pastor openly tells us we do not have to do each and every thing he suggests to us, but ONLY if it BEARS WITNESS to our spirits. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it does not.  | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 559 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
I agree. Yes, and I also agree that of course there has to be balance. That's what I was getting at when I said we need to be teachable and not rebellious. I could have included "touchy". We can't have the attitude that no one can tell us what to do. We have to use our common sense, our Bibles, the inner witness of the Holy Spirit and (if possible) counsel from those we trust in making difficult decisions such as leaving a church or not following a spiritual leader's direction. Thanks for sharing the great verses you've chosen. I esp. liked Ps 92 - and catching the vision of the house (and pastor). That's why it's important to act wisely, slowly, and carefully when seeking a new church. The thing I don't agree with is having the pastor's permission/approval to leave. Sometimes it's just time to go - the "cloud" is moving and is calling you to move, also. We've experienced leaving abusive churches, and also a healthy one. The abusive ones were no-brainers. The health one was of course more difficult, but we know we made the right decision and are in a wonderful church with a pastor full of the Spirit and vision. | ||
| jbkrems New member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.139.7 |
Cybermom: I've had to leave two churches that were, somewhat, abusive, I would say. One was more of the typical kind of abuse (overbearing, manipulative, etc.), but the other was more subtle, and perhaps more dangerous (weak pastor, failed to properly pastor the staff, etc.) I was actually on staff (volunteer staff, not paid, this was a SMALL church), and I had to leave because another staff person had a conflict with me (out of his paranoia, immaturity, insecurity, fear and jealousy), and the pastor was incapable of handling the situation, and told me, in front of the other guy, and an elder candidate, as well, basically that he (the senior pastor) could no longer pastor or me, or as he put, "I can no longer minister to you or meet your (spiritual) needs." He did not want me to go, and probably would not have granted permission, but for my spiritual health, I believe the situation had become abusive, and I needed to find a healthy church to provide me the spiritual undergirding we all need in a strong church and a strong man of God we call our pastor. Now I've been planted at my current church for almost a year and a half, and I love it. I really do feel like I have the support and undergirding and empowerment to fulfill the call of God on my life, and do the things God has called me to do. I am in full agreement with the vision my pastor has for the church, and am already serving and involved. Its wonderful. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 560 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
I think the main thing we've learned is to take it slowly. In the past we've jumped in with both feet, only to find out later that there were many things that we should have checked out before making a strong commitment (ie membership). We've attended our current church for 2 yrs. now, and waited a year before becoming members. This was a good decision for us, as they installed a new pastor during this time, who has the passion and vision we've desired for a long time, who wants to disciple his flock so we can go out and bring more people into the kingdom. I'm glad that you've also found a good spiritual home. Hopefully, our discussion will help others with the same issues. PS it's nice to see that there are still civil people on this site who can carry on a decent, respectful conversation. You've been a breath of fresh air!! | ||
| jbkrems New member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
Cybermom: Thanks. I know exactly what you mean, although I am not one who generally waits a year before becoming a member. However, I am a part of a fairly smallish church (about 100 people), and I've always been at a small church throughout my 13-year journey with God. Small churches generally ALSO change slower over time, and usually it is easier to get acclimated to the pastor's vision, and not jump in right away. I waited a few months before becoming a member, but I because I did attend some core group meetings, I realized that this was a pastor I had to connect with, and I didn't want to put off membership, which at the time, felt like it would be disobedience. By the way, John Bevere spoke last weekend at Eagle Mountain in Ft. Worth. I watched it online, and it was good. You can go to http://www.emic.org/ and catch it online as well in their sermon archive. | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 142 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.181.234 |
Interesting that Ted Haggard, John Bevere's chum and pastor, has now been revealed for the false person he is. How long before Bevere and the New Apostolic Reformation go tumbling down? Nina | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
Nina: I do not think John Bevere is going down. He is SOOOOOO well-respected (even more than his pastor Haggard) in the Evangelical/Charismatic world, its not even funny. And, Bevere is NOT really part of the New Apostolic Reformation. | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.177.160 |
Thought I'd jump in since Ijust finished John's book DRIVEN BY DESTINY. I had never heard of him before but he spoke with his wife on Joyce Meyer's TV program. I was moved by what he said -- the need to have an "eternal focus" and knowing we will also appear at the judgment seat -- so I bought the book. I read a lot and find some popular pastors/teachers are better at speaking then their books. Joyce is a great speaker, her books do nothing for me. Charles Stanley's books and speaking are about equal. Gloria Copeland is great live and in her books; Kenneth is better live. Andrew Wommack is great live/on tape and I haven't read his books. And so forth. As for John, the book didn't "translate" well for me. Just sort of flat although he was talking about an incredible subject. In all, I found about 10 pages that spoke to me, the need to seek out God to find out am I REALLY doing what He wants, or am I coasting. Yes, he went to Ted's church and Ted has a blurb on the back. (Which I'm sure will be removed in future editions!) All I know about John is his one appearance on Joyce and this book. Nothing "concerned me" about what he wrote but I wasn't so blessed/challenged I'd read again. I'd like to see him on TV to see what he's like. For me, he might better live than on the printed page. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 565 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
I have seen him live, more than once. He is much better now than in the past. He is much more mellow and "nicer"; I don't know, maybe it's because on these occasions he was taping for a video series he was producing. In the past, I felt beaten up when he was done - a lot of shouting, screaming, condemnation. All I got out of him in the past was a headache, and no life whatsoever. All I got from him in the recently was the "shepherding" movement, repackaged and updated. Has anyone seen him lately where he was a guest speaker at a church, etc? No taping or recording - just John and his message? I'd like to see what he's like now "off camera". | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.155.220 |
Actually, cybermom, John mentions in his DESTINY book how "off the wall" and harsh he was at one point in his ministry. Some well-known speaker totally called him on it and he was blown away--thought HE was right and the well-known person was off-the-wall. Later, John repented and was ashamed at whatever he had done and how bad his behavior was. I'd forgotten that until you mentioned it. LOL regarding his "ministry" to you before:a headache and no life! (Not LOL at you, just the "fruit"!) | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 566 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
bachman Thanks for the info. I've never read the book so for now I'll believe you that he did repent for his harshness. I'm glad. The problem I have with his submission teaching is that it forces gullible people to stay in abusive churches, under intolerable circumstances. I know because I've seen it first-hand. A group of us went to see John several years ago (a few years after the screaming period LOL); at the time we all attended a small, cultic group whose leader was extremely controlling. Fortunately, a lot of us followed the Holy Spirit (and God's Word) and left. One family stayed for 10 more years, and part of the reason was the "you can't leave your church unless your pastor releases you" nonsense the husband heard. What this family suffered was unbelievable. I know John's teaching is not completely to blame, but for people in these circumstances it causes spiritual death. Where does this teaching appear in the Bible? Not the teaching on submitting to church leadership - I mean that a person cannot leave a church unless the pastor releases him? As I've said before, IMHO it's simply the shepherding movement all over again, just updated and repackaged. FYI, the shepherding movement went thru the church (usually small, independent prayer groups and churches) soon after the Jesus Movement of the '70's. It gave pastors/leaders absolute control over their people - they told you what to wear, who to marry and when, gave permission to date (you could not date without his OK - and this was for adults, not teens), where to live, etc. Any such decision had to go thru the leader; if not, you were in said to be in rebellion and could be kicked out or shunned. BTW, Bob Mumford, one of the leaders of this movement, later repented before the body of Christ for this teaching. Cybermom | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.210.2 |
Cybermom, I've been saved since 1974 and have seen many things "come and go" -- much weed I've spit out. So I know where the bodies are buried, who was who, etc. Made my share of mistakes but, like you wrote, followed the Holy Spirit and He's always right. My tip to everyone is to "follow Peace" -- if you don't feel at peace about the situation/teacher, then take a breather and wait on the Lord. It's really NOT that hard and if the church/minister is pressuring you, then it's probably not right. Not always, just often. I think the reason God revealed Himself as a loving Father and a Shepherd is because He wants us to be skittish like sheep (if you know what I mean.) We SHOULD be a bit dumb and we don't understand things, go to Him. Too often, we stop at "dumb" and not go to the Father, not follow peace, etc. John writes on page 247 of DRIVEN BY DESTINY that he was saved in 1979 and for the first decade (1979 to 1989) he struggled a lot with sexual lust and porn; he said he fasted and on the 4th day of the fast in 1985 he was delivered of that. On page 248, he writes that in the mid-80s he was on staff of a church of 8000 members and because he hated confrontation, he was "nice" to everyone -- God confronted him and said that "nice is not the same as love." John was nice because he feared rejection if he confronted people. On page 249, he writes that he swung the opposite and became a harsh preacher (his words.) He'd come in and "fry congregations." He writes: "I look back now on the earlier days...and feel so bad for some of the pastors who had to clean up after my departure. If I were a pastor back then, I would not invite me back to preach." It's on page 249 where he says a well-known pastor (no name given) criticized John's behavior to some influential leaders and he heard the comments from 3 different continents -- so his bad behavior WENT AROUND THE WORLD!!! (LOL!) He writes he was devasted and angry at first but he heard the truth, cried out to God and he says he got a simple word: A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. The medicine is still potent and isn't dimminished if it is sweetened a bit. He says now he gets comments about how funny he is and how strong the Word is and how serious what he says is, but how much easier it is to receive. I guess over the years I realize that I have grown up out of the public eye so my "bad/wrong behavior" was never exposed to hundreds/thousands or millions. But the leaders we love to shred on this board really ARE human but they are exposed publically. Yes, some are off the wall, some are in it for the money, but I have met some personally or know what REALLY goes on behind the scenes and they are Godly people, serving and giving so much money, time and effort to the kingdom. And while I don't agree with some of what they say or do, MOST of what they say or do blesses me or others. So I think John is a good guy and right on -- he made public mistakes and allowed God to change him. Like anyone else, look at the fruit. If you like it, taste and see. If you don't, move to the next cart! | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 567 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
Amen. Great post! I don't dislike him - I just don't always agree with what he teaches. But I think it's great that he heeded the admonishments, and learned and grew from them. I hope we all can do that. Cybermom | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.142.212 |
Cybermom (and others), John and Lisa Bevere are scheduled to be on Joyce Meyer's program December 14th and 15th if you'd like to hear them for yourself. I think he may be promoting his book that I quoted from and although the book didn't do much for me, the message -- that Christians will also be judged -- is a sobering and needful one, so what he and Lisa say could be a good and needed word. or not! : ) | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 568 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
Thanks for the info. I'm interested in hearing him in an interview, not just from the pulpit; so I'm going to try and record it (thank goodness for dvr's!) Cybermom | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
I have known John Bevere when he was with Benny Hinn. I met John in 1990. Actually he was with Robert Tilton before Benny Hinn and lived in his home in Dallas, took care of his kids, gave tennis lessons (he's quite a player) and drove the van to pick up all of Bob's WOF friends. I have spent hours and hours with John and know he has a good heart but at times a mixed up head. Unfortunately, I just saw him recently and his sermon had no Biblical basis whatsoever. John claims if God called me to be a school teacher and I was an accountant that I will receive "no reward" in heaven at the judgment seat of Christ. This simply is not true. John totally ignores the fact that there is God's perfect will but also His permissive. We all miss it at times. God permitted Saul to be King but it was not what He wanted. He permitted it. John also claims that if I "know" my calling then no disease can kill me. None! Really? This slaps in the face of countless thousands of saints who were in the will of God or believed they were and died of an illness. Thanks for the condemnation John. There is a lot more that I will not go into. John is not Biblically educated and claims to not be WOF but most of his associations are WOF. There is a standard in the WOF celebrities and that is to dig out "new revelation". To be able to stand and say something, teach something or write something no one else has done. Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis and John Bevere fall into this trap. To bad. I actually like them all but distain many of their teachings. Ok, comments?? David | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.247.195 |
David, I saw him on Joyce Meyer and he was very good in what he spoke about, our destiny and the need to seek God. Really a sobering, well-thought-out message, so I bought the book. (Forget the title, something about DESTINY--his latest.) The book was pretty bad. Poorly written/organized and it just seemed to circle around and around but never reached a point. He did mention that at one point in his ministry--years ago--he was pretty off-the-wall and judgmental, very critical. The Lord spoke to him and he repented. Other people have posted here that they remember him from then, so I give him credit for publically mentioning it. I liked what you wrote "good heart/mixed up head"-- he should probably just be a fellow in the pew and not on the platform. It seems like he WANTS to teach something different from other WOF people, but he just doesn't have the writing or communication skills to pull it off. I wouldn't say he's "harmful" -- just doesn't add anything. His book was tossed--I just kept skimming and skimming! | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
Hi Bachman: I did not see John Bevere On Joyce's show. When I say I know him, I don't mean I have seen him preach. I mean I have sat with him time after time after time and talked as he stayed in the home of my Pastor for weeks on end. Since I dated the Pastor's daughter, I got to know him well. We spent hours talking over pizza and after revivals at our church. We have kept infrequent contact since 1990. John only preached at our church for 2 to 3 years period, if I am correct., between 1988 to 1990 or 1991. My Pastor met him while he drove him to the airport from a convention at Robert Tilton's church where John lived with Bob and Marty Tilton. The rest is history. Up til this year, John’s "covering" was Ted Haggard. Like Tilton, another bomb. God may have had a reason for this and thus I will remain as quiet as I can. The comments on this site are pretty accurate regarding John overall. John was one hard hitting preacher and he said some very stupid things but he loved us all. I am certain. His motive was to serve God. I guarantee it! He was different in person. A fun loving and very smart guy who loved the Dallas Cowboys, horses, tennis and people. John got his first big break on TBN when Carlton Pearson interviewed him on his book "The Bait of Satan", a book I endorse, though I do not endorse all of John's books. I was in Orlando and drove by John's house when he was writing it and he asked me to let him continue instead of hitting the golf ball. I did and went back to Michigan. I personally spoke to John last week but only for a moment. In the last 7 years I have spoken to him 4 or 5 times. He doesn't return my phone calls or e-mails so I have to talk to him wherever he speaks. He is always gracious and gives me a huge hug. This is the John Bevere I have always known. However, I have heard a mixed bag of messages from him that I do not support at all. This caused me to Google him as a false teacher and see what turned up. I have spent several months doing an intense investigation on my WOF teachers and prophets. What I have found is unsound doctrine and tons of false prophecies. Kim Clement leading the way as #1 false prophet and the Copeland Gang along with the Pimpin Prosperity Perverts ... Creflo Dollar, John Avanzini, Mike Murdock, & Leroy Thompson leading the way as #1 false teachers. It’s sad to see so many of those I have embraced go down a path of unstable and unbalanced teaching. It is way out of control today. As far as John is concerned, maybe he needs to stop looking for some new word to write in a new book and stick to the word in the word and get back in the middle of the road. If he doesn't he will wind up like all the other obnoxious goofballs, who I like personally but make outlandish statements not in the Bible and can really mislead someone who doesn't know the difference? There were people at church last week who actually believed every word John preached. Hogwash! He was terrible (See my first comment). John does not do this all the time but I have seen him do this before and I pray he stop! I am not interested in tearing people down but we are to discern and keep all these people accountable, which is the #1 problem with the likes of Benny Hinn, Ted Haggard and many many others. No accountability. Point a finger at them and you are a devil and you are to be rebuked. The biggest lie they all use is "touch not my anointed". Ha! What a joke. We're talking a Kingdom, not a democracy, where Saul is publicly anointed by what maybe the greatest prophet ever, Samuel, and these folks wanna tell me they are in the same league??? Give me a break! | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
David, I recently looked at PowerPoint notes of one of John's recent sermons at New Life Church. I do need to correct one factual issue. John's "covering" was not Ted Haggard. It was and always has been (so long as he and Lisa and their kids) have been a member of the New Life Church family, the pastoral leadership of that church, be it Haggard, or now Ross Parsley. Its not the pastor that is your covering, but the pastoral leadership (pastors plural) of your church. Anyways, from what I read of his notes, his sermon was entirely based on the Scriptures. John Bevere is an excellent Bible teacher. Yes, some of his ideas are "crazy" by this world's standards, but God's standards are different than man's. Just because John is a poor writer (and that's subject to one's preferences), doesn't mean he's a poor teacher. Quite frankly, I believe that John does a better preaching and teaching than he does writing books. However, that doesn't mean you should not read his books, and pray and ask the Holy Spirit to illumine your understanding and apply the truth therein. Bachman, I disagree that John should be stuck in the pew. I really do believe that God has called him to be a Bible teacher, and has a message that people need to hear today. I've listened to several of his sermons on destiny and they are good and based on the Scriptures. Do eithe of you have any quotes to back up your allegations that John is a "false teacher" - ?? | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
Hey JB: I agree. John is an excellent speaker and keeps your interest. He has really improved over the years and this is why I still go to see him every so often. Many of his sermons are very good and Biblical. However, I just heard him here in Virginia beach last week and his conclusions from chapter 11 or 13 of his book on destiny were terrible. Not Biblical by a long shot. I wrote about this on the post May 27 @ 5:39 pm. You either read it and didn't pick up on it or didn't read it at all. One point was his repeated comment that if one knows their calling from God that no disease can kill them. It may trouble them but can not kill them. Now what are you suppose to do with that kind of ridiculous statement? My sister was right in her calling of God and she died at age 45 from Diabetic complications. This kind of teaching is condeming and not of God. John is flat wrong. John demonstrates great arrogance when he claims that if I do not choose the supposed career call on my life (postman, accountant, teacher, policeman)that I will not receive a reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ. He repeated this over and over. Nonsense. Not in the Bible. Very presumptious of John to think so highly of his thoughts that he would put this out to a large congregation as from the word of God. I was shocked he tried to do this. I haveseen him do this kind of last minute bait and switch with the truth years ago but I trusted he had stopped. He has not. If you have the book look up I think chapter 11 or 13 on calling. I am stating ver batum what he said at church but have not read the book, so I have no quotes to give from the book, just from his powerpoint he gave at church. Now I have no objection to things that sound crazy. I think speaking in tongues is crazy but I do it because it is of God. However, John's conclusion that one should stay in a church even if the Pastor is in error could be detrimental to someone in a bad place. Pastor's make mistakes. I stayed at churches where the Pastor made numerous mistakes, I expect it. Each situation is different. However, John came into a church where the Pastor was found lying in a court of law and he had the adacity to claim people left the church because they didn't have the heart of the Pastor. Wrong. People left due to severe abuse, lying and mistreatment. John had no idea what he was talking about. I was ashamed of him. I stand corrected. John's covering was the New Life Church and not just Ted Haggard. I agree. My point was the lack of accountability among ministries and Pastor's like Haggard and my hope that John doesn't fall thru the cracks like some of his past mentors, especially Robert Tilton..the profit prophet. I did not say John was a poor writer. Can you explain your comment? Good converstaion. Thanks for the reply. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
David, Yeah, John makes a stop here in Oklahoma City where I live every once in a while... about every one or two years. He was here last October for the Momentum Conference at Church of the Harvest (NOT my church), and I couldn't go. However, this year Harvest is hosting John Maxwell, who is just SO WELL-RESPECTED, and I am going to go see him, so long as my church has no other plans. I haven't read his book on destiny (I've got a long back-log of a list of books to read), but why do you think his conclusions weren't aligned with the Scriptures - ? Could you share your thoughts - ? OK, I went back and read your previous post from 5:39 this evening. This is the kind of thing that John says where I would say I might disagree with the manner in which he is phrasing it, but would NOT say its unbiblical. I do believe that if you are in God's perfect will for your life, then no disease can harm you. Absolutely none. This is because the Bible is clear that divine healing and health is for all. So God's perfect will is to live disease free. Not to debate this point with you, but I just think John Bevere tends to think outside the box, and tells us things that stretch us, and stretch our faith. And I think that is good and healthy, David. So I do not see his points as "per se" un-biblical. It is a bit of a stretch, but it is something to at least pray about and consider, and not summarily dismiss. Also, just because someone experiences something like diabetic complications doesn't mean that you should base your theology on that. The Bible says we should not go through diseases like that, no matter what we are called to do in this life. However, if we're living in sin, and rebellion of what God would have us to do, then we open the door to that kind of stuff that God does not want us to have. I think this is the kind of point John is making, and that's what I see in my reading of the Scriptures. As regards to reward, I do think John stretches a lot. I don't think you can totally 100% lose your reward like John does, but I do think that your reward can be diminished because you failed to meet your potential. I also disagree with John, by the way, outright about what he says regarding staying in churches where the pastor is in error. Pastors do make mistakes, and as you said, every situation is different. I think where I would draw the line is with what one former pastor called "unsanctified loyalty." He said you want to avoid the fate of Jonathan as related to Saul. (Its interesting that Jonathan is my real name). Anyways, if a pastor did something that was more than a mistake --- like a major failure of leadership (and this has happened to me once while here in Oklahoma City), then there needs to be freedom for the pastor to release you from the congregation. If a situation is abusive, then perhaps its also best to leave a church. These kinds of matters cannot be given black and white statements, as John gives them. Each situation is different, and these matters are best left between the conscience of an individual and God. Lastly, I don't think that John is going to fall through the cracks. He's in a very strong church, despite failure of former pastor Ted Haggard. There are SO MANY leaders at that church that John relates well to. And John discusses his home church on the road as well. I've listened to some of his teachings in other churches when they've been recorded and put online, and I think I've heard his current thing on destiny 2 or 3 times. finally, about John being a poor writer. You said that he does not communicate well. Or that comment might have been to Bachman. I was responding to that. I don't know what else to say - sorry. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 126 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Tim 4:3-4) | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
JB: A well thought out response. I agree it is or at least as far as I understand, God's will for me to be in divine health. However, many of the saints are not and there are likely various reasons why, that we might never know. Don't forget about the quick answers by Jobs friends. You stated "just because someone experiences something like diabetic complications doesn't mean that you should base your theology on that. The Bible says we should not go through diseases like that, no matter what we are called to do in this life". The Bible teaches me there will be trials, struggles, battles and all kinds of things that come my way in this life. Your comment sounds very much like my former Word of Faith teaching. This theology that God will protect me at all times and all I have to do is claim the promises of God and I will receive what I want. Now I have claimed many promised of God and He has granted my request but other times there was no response. Why? Don't know and it is presumptuous of me to think I do know. This is where I am drawing the line, even with John. Think about it. If you say no disease can kill me if I am in God's will then if I die of a disease, logic dictates that I was not in God's will. Wooo! I don't want to make those kinds of statements. Do you? It is very condemning for John to think he has arrived at his very young life in this eternal universe to make these kinds of statements. It demonstrates immaturity. However, the book on destiny was written to wake us up that what we do here counts forever. I believe this is John's motive. To sound the trumpet and draw our attention to not take life lightly. For this I applaud him and I trust this is what people take from reading the book. With the caveats I made on it, go ahead and buy it. Actually, he has a 12 DVD set to teach it. I probably agree with 90% of it. Let me define unbiblical. This is a statement which you can not back up with scripture per se. Now, one could make a conclusion with no scripture references at all and they could be correct. I have many conclusions made on the time before Adam based on a variety of scriptures but I don't have definitive scripture for it. It's a guess and this is what John is doing. Problem is his guessing statement is condemning and I oppose it. You stated "I do think that your reward can be diminished because you failed to meet your potential". I agree 100%. This is what John should be advocating. I am glad you feel John is under good hands in Colorado Springs. His best friend Roberts Liardon resigned from the pulpit for homosexuality conduct with the youth pastor and Robert Tilton is a horrible embarrassment, not to mention the unorthodox and highly controversial Benny Hinn. I'd like to see some stability here for him. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.185.10 |
Hi jbkrems-- I didn't mean to imply I thought John was a false teacher. (I don't think I even wrote that.) I was the one who saw him on Joyce Meyer when he was promoting his DESTINY book (I had never heard him before) and bought the book based on what he spoke about to Joyce. I thought the book was poorly written/edited and organized---that may sound harsh, but I'm a writer so I come at things in that way: Does it communicate? Also, because I believe the Word of God is "easy" to understand, I don't believe that God gives "heavy-duty revelations" that are so difficult to understand--Jesus was and is for the common man/woman. And by sitting in the pew, I just meant that, for me, if someone is unable to communicate what God has given them, then they should sit down (for a season) until they are better able to communicate the message. But that was the only book of John's I've read -- if he writes his own books -- and maybe he wrote it too quickly or had a poor editor or maybe he needed more time to walk it out. Or maybe I just "didn't get it!" Anyone else here read it and love it? Also, some men/women are better writers than speakers or better speakers than writers. To be, Charles Stanley does both well. Joyce is a speaker, not a writer. Gloria Copeland does both well, Ken is a speaker NOT a writer. Paula White is a speaker, not a writer. John B., to me, is a speaker. Anyway, again, I didn't mean to imply I though he was a false teacher, which I think is a VERY serious charge. To me, it implies the DESIRE to mislead and agree with them or not, I do not believe any of the people I mentioned are "false teachers" -- I don't agree with any of them 100%, but have found some "wheat" with all of them. Even Jesus and I disagree at times, but He tends to convince me of my error!  | ||
| nina_s New member Username: nina_s Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.187.225 |
Why is Bevere's ministry evasive about his educational/ministerial credentials? I called them and they would not tell me where he received his Biblical training! Bevere holds a degree in mechanical engineering from Purdue, I do not know of any formal Biblical training that he has received. His wife was a tv producer when they met. I am not aware of any formal training in writing or the Bible which they have received. Just like Joyce Meyer and so many other televangelists they employ their children; receive large salaries; and IMHO are arrogant---seeking to promote their own opinions instead of the Word of God. Paul had some physical frailties, are we then to conclude that he was not in the Will of God and has not received his full reward in Heaven?! How presumptuous and arrogant! Such a conclusion would then lead us back to legalism, where what we DO earns us a place in Heaven---and Jesus' sacrifice is pointless! So many seek to improve on the Word of God when really we should be studying it FOR OURSELVES, and not seeking after teachers who will lead us around like dumb sheep! God is the only Shepherd, and those in sheep's clothing will be punished. No priest or pastor or teacher or speaker has the right to take the place of Jesus Christ! We need to "study to show thyself approved" and "test all things" just as the Bereans did. The problem is that people want a "quick fix," a magic formula to improve their lives and get them closer to God. Others desire to be self-important and jockey for positions within the "organization." When "the church" and doing the work of the church becomes more important than just following Jesus, then there are problems. My friend is brainwashed and involved in a G12 church---another church-growth methodology that has taken my friend farther into legalism even though HE thinks that this is bringing he closer to Jesus. And this all started with John Bevere, and a local pastor who has used Bevere's faulty theories and Scripture-twisting to exert total control of HIS congregation. In Bevere's words from "Undercover" we are "like horses that must be broken," broken by the pastor and controlled, never to leave the pastor's control without his permission! This is not of Jesus! Nina | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
Nina: I gave you his background. Can you read? BS Mechanical Engineering - Purdue (1980- 1984) Got saved in a faternity and met Lisa at Purdue (no, not as a TV producer) Went to live with Robert Tilton and serve as house servant. ..etc (1984-1986) Went to Orlando to be Youth Pastor for Benny Hinn (1986 - 1999)Not sure of dates? Moved to Colorado Springs under New Life (Ted Haggard), around 2000 All ya gotta do is read Nina. You were the one I was responding too. I am not here to defend him but I have personal information since I know the guy and you asked if anyone "knew" him and I do. | ||
| nina_s New member Username: nina_s Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.187.225 |
Thank you for the information! You don't have to be short with me! I knew he went to Purdue, but didn't have the dates. As I have stated, his organization was not forthcoming about any specifics of his background. Thank you for supplying additional details. Nina | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
Sorry Nina...I disn't mean to be short but I took considerable time in several posts to lay out what you asked for. John has not received what some might consider traditional Bible teaching. He is a self made teacher, good and bad. I am uncertain from your posts what exactly it is that concerns you? From my posts it should be clear. I know John Bevere and my concern is that his motives are sincere and often very compelling but sometimes his conclusions are not Biblical and down right condemning. Exactly how or why this happens is a mystery to me. The last time him and I were together we spent an afternoon at a christian bookstore while he signed books for people who came in. We batted around several topics but I it really wasn't the place for me to pin him on areas I disagreed. Tell me. What is your concern with his ministry and I may be able to help you? If you want to know if he is Biblically trained the answer is no. Not even close. Is he motivated by money? No way. He could make more money in the world. John is very bright. Does he have controversial conclusions on Biblical scripture? Yep! Does he have odd, unorthodox and controversial cover from past to present? Yep...you can't get any more weird than Robert Tilton and Benny Hinn. Does John have lots of false teacher friends? Yep..Robb "pervert" Thomson and other Word of Faith prosperity pervert pimps. Why? Ask John, I gave up. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
David, Having to deal with diseases and illnesses is not a trial. Sicknesses and diseases are part of the curse that Christ came to redeem us from. I do come from a WOF background, so I admit my bias, and that my comments might sound like that. However, the stuff that I say is what I understand from reading the Bible. But that logic is right --- if you die of a disease or an illness, then that's not God's will. God does not want anyone to die of a sickness or disease. I think you'll be seeing more stability from Bevere in the coming months. He left Orlando and Benny Hinn because Benny Hinn closed his church. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Bachman, Well, I guess John is a better verbal communicator than writer, at least based on your standards. But that doesn't mean he should be seated from the pulpit ministry that God has given him, because he does have a message that God has for him to speak. At least his heart is to obey and do what God tells him to. John has written lots of books. I've read some of them, but not all of them. He does have a tendency to wander and not be organized, but I find him a better speaker and Bible teacher. And we agree on that, I think. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.248.43 |
jbkrems, obviously it's just my opinion about John "sitting in the pulpit" and to clarify, I did buy his book based on what he said to Joyce -- "on the platform" so to speak -- but it was the book that put me off. (Of course, as I read it, I was thinking of how I would have "fixed it" and re-edited it!) The problem with the book, if I remember, was that it seemed like it was padded--maybe he had 100 pages but it went too long and as you pointed out, had a tendency to wander (when he speaks) and the scriptural examples, while not incorrect, left we unable to figure out how he went from point A to point B -- and then how did they tie into his premise. I really know nothing about him, don't know if he "has a calling" or sort of stumbled into all of this by his association with well-known pastors and teachers. As always, the fruit will win out in the end and that will be the deciding factor! | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
Bachman, I can be the same with other authors. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to read that much anymore. I am trying to read more, though. I think John does write, though, for a specific audience who can relate to his material. I know there are other authors who I do NOT relate to (another John, John Eldrige, for instance), I do NOT relate to and don't "get it." And as you said, "the fruit will win out in the end and that will be the deciding factor." Amen. | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.48.177.67 |
I don't know much about him other some of the books. He seemed orthodox as far as I could see. I thought his book on prophets was quite good. A needed corrective. | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
JB: You said "Having to deal with diseases and illnesses is not a trial. Sicknesses and diseases are part of the curse that Christ came to redeem us from. Yes, disease is a part of the curse, I agree but I also consider the burden of going thru a disease or a bad marriage or financial difficulty a trial. Kinda of 2 sides of a coin. I am well aware of WOF folk. Seen Hagin numerous times. Saw Dollar and Copeland this past year and so on. Even though I really cringe at quoting Benny Hinn, he said he doesn't understand how some come to the crusades and get healed and others do not. He said God told him that sinners are healed by mercy but saints are healed by covenant. Hmmm? It would be nice if Benny would do what he promised the Assemblies of God and actually document healings at his crusades with medical followup. The AG has been after him for over a decade and he says he'll do it and then will not. Here at Regent, where I went to law school, Benny told Dr. Rodney Williams, theoloean and author of the maual "Charasmatic Renewal" that he would submit all his teachings to Dr. Williams for approval. He did not do it. Like Pat Robertson, Benny lies a lot. Will John Become more stable? He left Benny around 2000 and his covering is thru New Life Colorado Springs where their Pastor was Ted Haggard. Hmmm? I don't know? | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 156.110.24.142 |
David, Well, yes, the burden of a bad marriage or financial difficulty is a trial. But neither a bad marriage, nor financial difficulty, nor a sickness or disease --- none of these things are God's best for our lives. I think the kinds of trials that are discussed are more "hardships" that we face when we desire to live our lives in a godly way, in the face of a world that is very ungodly. True courage is living holy in a very unholy society. I've never seen Hagin, Dollar, or Copeland personally, although several in my church have. I am not into the name-dropping as much as others might be. But much of my theology I do share with WOF, and I am influenced by that kind of thinking that champions and heralds the Kingdom of God. As for Benny Hinn, I did go to a crusade once (back in 1998 in St. Louis, where I used to live.) I do understand his point that sinners are healed by mercy but saints are healed by covenant. As Christians, our healing is provided for in the atonement as part of our covenant with God, the same covenant by which we are saved from our sins. On the other hand, sinners are not in covenant with God, and thus God heals them out of His mercy, so that they will have a sign on which to receive salvation. Benny Hinn is actually no longer connected with the AG denomination. Before he resigned his pastorate, he separated his former Orlando church from the AG. I don't think he has credentials with AG anymore, either. So, you're a lawyer, too - ? So am I. Interesting. Where do you practice? Regardles, I've never heard of Hinn submitting anything to Dr. J. Rodman Williams, who I respect a lot. Back to John Bevere... I think he has become stable. He left Orlando because Benny Hinn resigned his pastorate. So, John Bevere had to find a new church home and spiritual covering --- Benny Hinn turned his church over to Clint Brown (causing a split and merger), and then moved to California. The true test will be whenever New Life names its new Senior Pastor. But I don't think John will leave New Life, when the new Senior Pastor arrives. I think he and his wife and kids are pretty solid into the New Life family. I don't think New Life is going to fold like Benny Hinn did --- I think Bevere is in Colorado Springs to stay and he is stable. | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
JB: I enjoy our converstaions! Excellent input though I think we differ on the Clement and prophecy issue. However, I am always learning. One of my lawyer friends is a prosecutor and goes to my pre-trib charasmatic church, yet he believes we are in the millieneum now. Amazing. He's a bright guy too. A real R.C. Sproul kind. I love Sproul if for the reading only. He's like a Tozer/Yancey. Anyways........keep in mind I know John Bevere. I love the guy. I do not question his motives. He's not in ministry for money. Trust me. He is not greedy at all. A very giving person. However, he can come up with conclusions that he can not support with scripture. Even if he is a friend I insist on sound scripture for the things he says. You gotta admit. You go to law school and you won't roll over to just anybody blowin smoke. Particulary preachers! Benny's father in law is with the AG. I didn't know Benny was connected with the AG per se? I have seen video of their officials complaining Benny promised to cooperate and then will not. I have personal knowledge from key faculty of Benny's promise to Dr. Williams to submit to critical review of teachings and books to be published. Benny wound up looking like a complete idiot when he went on TV trying to explain the trinity in Jesus, the HS and the Father, thus there were 9 Godheads, not three. Nice one Benny you Boner! That went over here at Regent like a lead balloon. Dr. Williams rebuked him good for that stunt! Of course Paul Crouch will sit there and eat it up. He'll believe anything Benny says...."wow ... a 9 headed God Benny? Oh Praise the Lord" Ok, enough. I gotta finish some work. By the way..I agree with your intro paragraph. I think we're along the same line but saying it with a different slant. Hardships vs trials ..etc. I do not pretend to comphrehend healing. I am told to believe so I do but like the one fella said "help me with my unbelief". | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
David, Another thing is that I am not such an avid follower of Kim Clement as I once was. This is on another thread, but the thing is --- I used to follow him a lot more than I do now. I'm on his mailing list, but I really just skim over his stuff. I have read his one book, and its very good about hearing God's voice. But, I do not really see him as much on TV or whatever. My eschatological view is a cross between pan-trib and dispensationalism. I am somewhat dispensational in my understanding of the Scriptures, but I am very uncertain as to the timing of the Rapture. I just do not see in the Scriptures a two-fold Rapture. I really like the views of George Ladd on this subject, who deeply influenced John Wimber of Vineyard. On the other hand, I cannot stand the teachings of RC Sproul. Way too Calvinistic for me. Tozer is pretty good, though. Phillip Yancy, however, while not as bad as Sproul, is just not my style. I really don't like many of the Evangelical mainstream writers --- the only mainstream writer I really really like is John Maxwell. Let me say something else. Just because I am a lawyer doesn't mean I demand the kind of legal scrutiny I do in the legal world into the church world. I've learned the Kingdom of God does not operate like the legal world; I try to keep them separate. Yes, Benny's father-in-law IS with the AG (if his father-in-law is still alive). I think Rev. Hathorn (sp?) might have passed away a few years ago, but he was a former pastor of Calvary AG in Orlando, where Benny Hinn was invited to preach. Benny Hinn himself was actually ordained with the AG until he went independent. He separated and went independent because he did not want the scrutiny of the denomination. He wanted to do his own thing. So, in 1996, he made his Orlando church independent, and then 3-4 years later left the pastorate and merged his congregation with FaithWorld, pastored by Clint Brown. However, a lot of people who attended Hinn's church left as a result, including John Bevere. Lets just say that Clint Brown is not a pastor you want as your spiritual covering, necessarily, and I'll leave it at that. I have heard of Benny Hinn's mistakes based on the Dake Bible. That's why he said the 9 parts of the Godhead deal, and all that stuff. Back when the Dake Bible was really popular in the 1980s and 1990s, everyone in the charismatic movement bought into it and went off the deep end. But most have reformed since then. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.147 |
Dgate007, I agree with you about trials that are in this life. Unfortunately, for these teachers they teach peace and security which the Bible states to be careful of because these people are labeled to be in the dark. I remember when I was praying about staying in a church and the preacher was teaching on God giving us things to enjoy and though I do agree with the fact that happiness is important to attract people to the love of christ that's not what God is saying to the church in america. He is telling her to repent of her fornication with idolatry and the love of money. God confirmed to me in II or I thessalonians about when people come in the name of christ and teach peace and security. In fact, this teaching about god making you wealthy produces selfishness and in fact its not from God himself. I don't even think that when you get riches that it may be God doing the blessing. We have to look at what it produces. Unfortunately, the Bible teaches that these men have to be made manifest because He respects free will and gives them room to repent while they are being made manifest. It's really sad to see the condition of the american church but God knew it would happen. For Bevere's teaching, I believe his teaching is false specifically with regards to authority. He needs to review ii timothy about staying away from abusers who Paul called reprobates. God is very clear on who we are to associate with and the people Bevere suggest to submit to the Bible teaches to stay away from. In fact, it is motivated by fear whcich is based in the occult and promotes the spirit of the antichrist | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey JB and The West: Thanks for the input. Excellent! I have been on the road so I haven't responded. I drove from Virginia Beach to Phoenix. This is a big country. Geezz! I have found that I learn more from those with different or opposing views than those who agree with me. Problem is, is that too many who oppose my view can only tell me what someone told them and don't appear to have really thought thru what it is they actually believe. When we all gave our hearts to Jesus we didn't lose our minds. Amen? Yes. So I enjoy peaceful discussion because after 17 years as a christian I am learning that I don't know much. My belief system is not producing results and I want to know why? The never ending search for truth. Some of my disappointment thru trials is my own immaturity and lack of patience. Some I believe is due to an unscriptural view which has been influenced by well meaning but Biblically incorrect speakers and writers who don't know more than me. I am turning everything over on its side for review. I think this is healthy. How else do we grow? I do know this. The prosperity message by my former favorites has reached an end with me. It has become so perverse I can't stomach it anymore, even if I get some good truth from them now and then. I had to walk away from the toxic teachings. I am avoiding Clement and the likes of C. Peter Wagner and Chuck Pierce, Cindy Jacobs and these all seeing gurus to others for analysis. It is all getting too crazy for me. These people don't bless me, they confuse me. I am reading Yancey's book on "Prayer". I like his writing style and potent questions he asks. Read "What's so amazing about grace" and "The Jesus I never knew". Actually Sproul writes well too though I do not share his calvanistic beliefs. I have no opinion right as far as eschatology goes. I am totally confused, well not totally.....but whether the rapture is before the tribulation or "God's wrath" is unknown to me. It appears these two are not the same.I like Mike Bickle who is a strong proponent that we better get ready for the tribulation. Hmm? Thanks guys! | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey JB: I read maybe 50 books a year or so. Been doin that for years. I am reading what maybe the most honest gut wrenching book ever. "The Fire of Delayed Answers" by Bob Sorge. This book would not sell well at a WOF convention at all. It's way too painful but the truth in it is inescapable. Check it out. My highest recommendation! | ||
| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.210 |
dgate007, maybe you should try watchman nee's writings. I know he is controversial but the man knows the Lord. It's exemplified through his teachings. A book the Lord told me to read was Sit, Walk, Stand. He states something so profound that all american christians need to hear and that is: the worst thing christians do is that they demand others to be right from thier won perspective. Are starting off as christians is not right and wrong but Christ the tree of life. Right and wrong are not a part of the tree of life but of knowledge. He continues about the exchanged life and being made into His image through abiding. Or in my philosophical terms "the existence of being" naturally spiritual and spiritually natural. His presence is constant!!!!!!!! WOW now that's something to dwell on. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.210 |
dgate007, maybe you should try watchman nee's writings. I know he is controversial but the man knows the Lord. It's exemplified through his teachings. A book the Lord told me to read was Sit, Walk, Stand. He states something so profound that all american christians need to hear and that is: the worst thing christians do is that they demand others to be right from thier own perspective. Our starting off as christians is not right and wrong but Christ the tree of life. Right and wrong are not a part of the tree of life but of knowledge (hint death). He continues about the exchanged life and being made into His image through abiding. Or in my philosophical terms "the existence of being" naturally spiritual and spiritually natural. His presence is constant!!!!!!!! WOW now that's something to dwell on. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.189.81.234 |
David, I've heard really REALLY good things about Bob Sorge. A friend of mine once recommended another book by him. Also, that DOES go along with some of what my own pastor has been discussing. He recently shared a prophecy about why many have thought revival has been delayed, and it goes EXACTLY along with "The Fire of Delayed Answers," as well. Thanks. | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey JB; I meant to ask you. I have a Dake Bible though I have never read from cover to cover. Like Dake, I believe in a pre-adamic civilization. Did he teach something along the lines of that 9 godhead stuff Benny Hinn got in trouble over?? If so, are there other Dake teachings that are contrary to doctrine? I don't mean stuff like pre-adamic life. I mean something teaching away from the doctrine of the trinity? We can all differ on the inbetweens but there are doctrines in the Bible that are not up for debate. I embrace the 13 doctrines of the assemblies of God. David | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey West! I have read Watchman. Like Tozer, he is heavy. Very concentrated in his writings. I think I last read "Christianity" or "Being a Christian" by Nee. I also read a 3 book series by him (triology)but I forget the name of it. I think it may be his best writings. Wait..."The Spitiual Man" I think it was. It dealt with the body, soul and spirit of man and was a great book for a guy like me who just became a christian. However, Nee was a little too spiritually in bondage for me. I recall he stated in a book that he was on a train and the 3 people sitting with him asked him to be the 4th partner in a simple card game. Nee declined because he claimed God did not give him permission to ever use his hands for a card game. Ouch! That is way too religious for me. Anyways....I agree....Nee is a staple in grounding and excellence in christian writing. Do you have a favorite book by him? He wrote quite a few. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
David, I've never read the Dake Bible, but I am familiar with some of its teachings. The idea of a pre-Adamic race is NOT exclusive to Dake. I probably agree with it as well. Actually, Gap Theory, is also in the Thomas Nelson NKJV. And that is a major tenet of pre-Adamic race theory. This is the kind of area, though, in which I believe we need to give each other, even as charismatics and even as WOF people, leeway. We had a revivalist and guest speaker come to our church several weeks back, and he made mention of the fact that he believed in a pre-Adamic race, but would not be dogmatic about it. I basically share his (and probably your) view. But back to the Dake Bible, the 9-godhead thing that Benny Hinn came up with... its not directly in the Dake Bible. Benny Hinn interpreted that by reading the Dake Bible. Its a hyper-view of the Scofield dispensationalism in the Dake Bible that is really erroneous and out of balance, and far worse than Kenyon. Basically, the idea is that if a person has a spirit, a soul, and a body, then each Person of the Godhead each have their own spirit, soul, and body. Well --- that is just entirely not true, as we agree, because really God is ONE --- and manifested in three Personalities (I like this term better than the humanistic term Personalities). Really, the Father does have a Body (Christ), and a Spirit (the Holy Spirit), but there are only THREE parts to the Godhead, not 9, amen - ? Dake was not too far off, actually. He took Scofield dispensationalism off the deep end, and came up with just weird stuff. However, most charismatic Bible teachers have been influenced by Dake... even folks like Cindy Jacobs. But really, in modern day, the Dake Bible is passe. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.159.35 |
dgate007 I think in response to how overly religious his is is because of the culture in which he lived in. He really I believed not out of pride but just wanting to truly be a man after God wanting nothing to do with the world. in fact, read his best seller of all time the normal Christian life. I mean he hits on so many things about how the ministers are supposed to be gifts to the body which is you and I. In his chapter on finance he states "he who holds the purse" holds the authority...if your works will be supported by men then they will be controlled by men. If you are supported by the Holy spirit then you will be led by the holy spirit regardless of what man states. Now that's true devotion to the Lord. His spiritual man book is remarkable. i have only read parts but I know that everyone loves that book. I mean just by opening his book and reading I get chill bumps because he was so dedicated to the Lord. But try his "the normal Christian life" because he states some remarkable things in there about ministers being gifts to the body and yet what have we seen in America. Let me put it to you this way and I admit I still get excited about this but his ministry was based on one proverb and that was when your ways are pleasing to the Lord then even your enemies will be at peace with you. I was in Borders one night and I ran into some witches and we were talking and I mean they are not my enemies but when you think of witches you think of something that the lord is against (not the person but the spirit working behind them) and they stated how they hated Christianity but when they studied it they studied Watchman Nee because he was so authentic. He has been dead for over three decades and the Lord's work still continues over in China because of his obedience Hallelujah!!!!!! we need to pray for more people like him to come to America. we need Ezekiels and Jeremiahs! pray for it it will come I have been hearing this from the Lord for some time!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| dgate007 Junior Member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 68.104.234.83 |
Hey West: That is the book I meant, "The Normal Christian Life". I read it some 10 years ago. The trilogy series, "The Spiritual Man", I read all of them cover to cover. Seems like it took a month. It was in 1990 and I was a new christian. I devoured those books. I think I would read a 100 pages or so and then go back and start all over again.That's why it took so long to get thru them all. Your comment on his culture may be correct. It seemed odd to me that someone would have a paradigm like his, where unless God told you that you could use your hands for playing cards that you do not do it. For some reason that stood out. But his stuff is read by many. Haa...witches who like Nee? Wow! Maybe they know Maralyn Hickey, my favorite picca witch from Denver? | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.188.210.35 |
Funny thing, running into this board, and now I am going to spend time answer question, I know, I shouldn’t, as I have a hundred and one things that I need to be doing, but I am. I guess I’ll just call it therapy. First, let me say, John has taken from me the Christ that was in me, he has robbed me of the person that I could have been, he has raped me spiritually. As I read these posts, I, think to myself, why are you people wasting your time on such meaningless things, such a meaningless person, pick up with your life and go one. John is just another man, that is all. Should you be fortunate enough to never meet him, good for you, I wasn’t that lucky. I trusted him, I dared to believe, I allowed people and God in, I felt Christ unlike I had ever thought possible, and it was real, and it was true, and it was good, and then, with one breath, John, deliberately and purposefully, blew me away. Now it is probably that same God that I can not believe in, that God that I can not trust, that forces me through life, who keeps me alive, I have my reasons to be angry at John (and Lisa), but let us keep things in perspective… I will respond to questions and answers that people have posted with answers that I know to be correct. | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.188.210.35 |
In response to: nina_s (nina_s) March 04, 2006 - 3:29 pm: I recall his degree from Purdue being in either Business Management or Finance, it was not Mechanical Engineering. He did play tennis while at Purdue, possibly for the Purdue team, but, my memory could be wrong on that one. Before he arrived at OCC he had not received any seminary training. Although, that is not a requirement, and is very limiting. I’ve been to seminary school, now there is a place where it is there way or the door way… God’s way is not an option. What is the big deal if he paid him self 203,000 dollars, when you own a business, sometimes this is what you have to do. Especially based upon tax laws and how the business is structured. If he authored books, and has received royalties for books, guess what, he has claim that money and pay taxes on, it is the law. So, big deal. This really is a non-issue, I have seen these things get so blown out of proportion and it can turn out to be something so simply and logical, and really, nobody’s business. Now, on the other had, if he wasn’t claiming this incoming… now that would be something to talk about… oh yes… Ctg_one | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.188.210.35 |
Lisa physically and verbally abusive to John. Hmmm, let me think of the nicest way to say this. There are some people who have survived abuse, there are some who are still living in it, there are some who have lost there life to it. And then there are those who think that what they have endured (or caused) is abuse, but they simply are clueless. They are not lying, they are not deceiving, it just that their limited exposure to the evils in this world have kept them protected from the nastiness and they simply just don’t know. Lisa’s life has been safe enough, she has been handed rose colored glasses, she just lacks the vision to see through them. Sure, she got picked on because one of her eyes is fake and the mean kids picked on her. It was hard for her. It makes a kid angry to get picked on for something they can’t control. If she believes in her heart that she was abusive, well then, so be it, she was welcomed into the women’s at OCC (Orlando Christian Center) and asked to present, it was such a nice story, she presents well, and it gave her a place to belong. In her upbringing, she was loved, and that love has carried her through into a productive adulthood. What she may think was physical and verbally abusive towards John, those of us who know, would call that a lack of chocolate on a moderately hormonal day. And then there is this quote “Jezebel spirituality and exposes how it manifests or operates in and against the Body of Christ”. Can someone please fill me in on these teachings. I think this may explain the meaning of my life. And until the next post. Ctg_one p.s. the problem with tounges is sometimes they get burnt when you drink really hot “hot coco”, and then you can’t taste anything for the next couple of days. | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.154.4.248 |
in response to cs1 (cs1) March 07, 2006 - 3:45 pm: “fear of the Lord as reverence to God the father” wow, I must have missed that message, or I was just to darn stubborn to accept it. The message that I got from the John “Strength in Christ” that was a long time ago though. I am not to sure what the issue is with speaking in tongues, but John does speak in tongues, at least he did. I would be blown away if that is something that he could have given up. And until my next release, Ctg1 | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.188.210.35 |
In response to Infoman March 07, 2006, - 5:30 pm I’ve settled my thoughts on his payments to himself. After all, John isn’t a pastor, he is an author. If one looks at with that that perspective, it paints a different picture. John doesn’t have a church, he writes books, and distributes them, and then goes out and promotes the sales of his books, that’s it… he just happens to be selling God. He does practice heavy authority, heavy domination and heavy submission. I have lived it, breathed it and been condemned by it. But this was very much limited to the church, the pastor, etc. It wasn’t about relationships with your spouse. Contrary, John and Lisa had (or have) a beautiful relationship. They were (or are) equals. There wasn’t the heavy submission that so many men expect in a marriage. I admired the relationship. They used to even wear matching outfits, I would never do that, but they sure were cute. More to come. Ctg_one | ||
| nina_s New member Username: nina_s Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.190.110 |
Hi! In my research on Bevere, he has allowed churches to advertise him as a reverend or pastor or doctor. His organization was very evasive when I called them to ask questions about his seminary/Bible training. Why would a mere author allow himself to be promoted as something he is not---and continually allow this?! Bevere attends Ted Haggard's church---how can Bevere not know that Haggard's church management was off---"tithe to me" attitude. You know him and I do not---just know of the negative influence his videos and books have had on impressional friends. Nina | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.188.210.35 |
My post August 22, 2007 I am very much minimalizing him by saying that he is nothing more then an author, whose purpose is to promote and sell books, but, technically, that is what he is doing. I wonder if he thinks about the people that he harms in the process. As I was talking with my shrink the other day, I mentioned that I believed I was the topic of one of his teachings, a teaching that he has made a lot of money on, yet I have been destroyed because of it. And I think maybe I should be getting royalties from that book. Why would he care how he is promoted, they are only making him appear to be better then what he is. I'm sure he would set them straight if they made him seem less then what he is. I did know him. I don't know him now. The teachings that I picked up from him still follow me however. They have climbed into my head and they won’t get out. Even though he kicked me out, those teaching still continue to stick. Sometimes it is like I am forever stuck in a rebellious submission. It makes me angry. It makes mad. Be glad that you don't know him. Make it a point to never meet him. Never see him, no matter how tempted it might be. I learned that John is a beautiful person, with a truly wonderful spirit that will catch one when they are not looking. He will hold one real close, until they truly understand this submission he talks about. It becomes so very clear. But then, when one chooses to take a moment and rebel for what they know they must, they become a Jezebel, an evil distraction that must be spit out and cast away, ridiculed and cursed in front of all. This is the John I know, this is the John I trusted, this is the John who continually took God away from me, now, God is gone. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come Member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.147 |
ctg_one sorry to hear about your experience with Mr.Bevere. I myself had left an abusive church where they promoted the bait of satan where they promulgated that fact that leadership could do anything they wanted to you but it was your choice to not be offended. It was satanic what they taught and as the word teaches let every tree bear fruit of its own kind. Wolves only produce and move in schools of their own kind. so it doesn't surprise me these false leaders were promoting another false teacher's teachings hope things get better. The great news is that no one can defile God's sovereinty so he can turn it around | ||
| helpfulcommentary Junior Member Username: helpfulcommentary Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.233.68.122 |
ctg_one... these are some of the darkest statements I've heard made by anyone about the inner fallout of Spiritual abuse. I think that it is very important that everyone on the board actually listen to what ctg is saying. The way that abusive doctrines work is that anyone who is hurt by them is blamed for being the problem, that way what they say doesn't matter. This is how the Shepherds did it, really it's how all abuse works. Now, on the flip side, does this make everything that the abused person says correct? No. Does it give them the right not to forgive? No. But when someone calls for help in a city all good people go and find out what is wrong. Too often abusees are like people screaming for help and no one is listening. The church needs to listen more carefully that aspects of Bevere's teachings are very damanging to people. David -- thanks for all of that information and perspective. very insightful. Nina -- What are you after? Credentials and associations are not the issue, it is the content and spirit of certain aspects of his teaching. Really we all need to pray for him so that there are no more stories like your friends. | ||
| ctg_one New member Username: ctg_one Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.188.210.35 |
Nina, Everything that you have wished to know about John can now be found on his website at, http://www.messengerintl.org/about.asp It would be wise to believe that when you called people were not willing to answer the questions that you asked because the simply didn't know the answer. They have made this information known. Good for them. Doesn't make me better, but it helps me for better for you. ctg1 | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.175.245 |
The content and the spirit include transparency and honesty. This includes making your credentials known. In teaching or medicine our degrees are posted for all to see, so should those credentials be made public for public figures such as the Beveres. Now a person could hold credentials but be a dishonest or lousy preacher, or he could have limited education and be truly Spirit-led. In the case of Bevere, he allows himself to be called pastor and reverend and doctor, when pastor and reverend should be reserved for those who have gone to seminary. If he has a B.A., M.A. and doctorate, from where were they awarded? I am proud of my education and companies I've worked for and will readily share that info---why is Bevere not so forthcoming? I have come to conclude that it is all part of the misinformation, Scripture-twisting and other spirit which he preaches. A person can have wonderful intentions and be dead-wrong! God will be the judge of Bevere's heart, and I hope that God will put a stop to all of the people being hurt by Bevere. Nina | ||
| most_holy_place New member Username: most_holy_place Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 211.30.244.219 |
Hello, If i could give some input. You do not need a degree to become a Pastor, Timothy didn't, he just learned the scriptures from his youth as his mother was a Jewess, learned and worked with people like Paul, etc. I know ministers who know so much more about the Bible then most trained ministers. And present some of the most powerful sermons, yet they became ministers by doing Bible work. Knocking on doors, giving Bible studies, learning from the Comforter, then being called by God to be Pastors. I am not saying Pastor Bevere has been called by God, God knows. Now as for his doctrine i heard, he seems like a sincire person, and i won't judge him personally unless he is involved in open iniquity. I watched one of his videos in which he taught 'tongues'. Now, i believe he said that everywhere in the Bible where they get baptised with the spirit, you speak in tongues, which is not correct. Only 3 occasions over 26-27 whole years (Book of Acts time period) out of many being filled and baptised with the spirit did anyone speak in tongues (dialektos x2 and the other x1 as per memory) it should better be translated "other languages". And all 3 of these took place when there were those around them who spoke different languages, thus - tongues being a sign and also a tool. The tongues which you see in many revivals today are a false tongues, infact, it is not the first time it was used. The native americans used to do a similiar thing, so did many other tribes in many other parts of the world, like Africa (voo-doo worshipers). Stand around a drum chanting the same blabber over and over again. Untill someone falls out and starts shaking on the ground. Only in that part of the world it is called demon possesion, Christians call it 'slain in the Spirit' only which spirit is it? There are testimonies of African youth walking into churches and then saying things to the effect of "My grandfather use to play the same music", now they played this music to try to raise the dead, then the western world started using it in it's culture a long time after it was first used, RockandRoll is no new thing, why then do we play it in church? This music in worship is really opening a seance, and is spiritualism, actually allowing demonic spirits into our lives and preparing us to reject the pure, self-denying truth of the word of God. Thank God He winks at the ignorant, but is calling all men to repent. I use to be a Spiritualist, and i was also a Pentacostal for some time. Untill i realised that the same spirit was actuating in some of these churches as was that which was trying to posses my body. God bless and maranatha. (Message edited by Most_Holy_Place on January 06, 2008) | ||
| gate007 New member Username: gate007 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 68.104.234.198 |
Yo Most Holy John Bevere is not a Pastor. He has no Biblical education and his teachings more than bare that out. However, I agree. Many self taught folks gain great Biblcial knowledge with the Holy spirit's help. Many ministers today have phony PhD's from non-accredited garbage shops. Many have honory doctorates, which are worthless and involve no academic work or a doctorate thesis. It's just a momento from a bum school so they can brag they gave a celebrity a doctorate. |
