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tumbleweeds (tumbleweeds)
New member
Username: tumbleweeds
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 70.234.103.178
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:32 pm: | 
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Anybody else out there have experiences with this sect? I was there 20 years. Suffered unbelievably with illnesses, pregnancies, births at home & abusive relationships. It's been a long road, rising up from utter darkness to light, fighting for sanity. So many never make it out. It's too hard. They are not willing to lose friends, family, peers. They will do almost anything rather than risk isolation and condemnation of the church. Those dark days will always haunt me. I thank God for delivering me every day, and for giving me the courage to walk away and face the truth. |
margeedee (margeedee)
New member
Username: margeedee
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.135
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:03 am: |
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Tumbleweeds, yes I am aware of the damage that this sect has done. Actually my oldest daughter married a man who was raised in this group. He was from Oklahoma, a good friend from Indiana has been out for many years and many I know from where I am from in California. I was raised in a similiar group also and am so thankful for the Lords faithfulness to those that dilligently seek Him! Keep growing in our Lord! |
tumbleweeds (tumbleweeds)
New member
Username: tumbleweeds
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 70.234.107.5
| | Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 7:03 pm: |
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Thanks for your post margeedee. I appreciate you very much. I know if it wasn't for the extreme fear many members have of being ostracized and "doomed to hell" there would be a lot more come out of the church. But they're taught that to leave and go somewhere else is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, and there is no hope after that. To believe that any other Christian from other denominations could go to heaven is likewise blasphemy and denying the "true faith". It is mind control of the worst sort. Plus, if you or your children go to the doctor or take medicine, you are denying God and he will not help you anymore. He may even take your children to punish you.
The church is maintained by fear, not love. |
margeedee (margeedee)
New member
Username: margeedee
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.135
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 8:13 am: |
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Yes, this is so true when you comment that the church is maintained by fear, not love.....I have observed througout my christian life that the two basic tools used by "religion" are fear and shame both very powerful motivators! It is only through a true relationship with Jesus that we can ever overcome and understand the true grace that God has bestowed upon us! Please feel free to e-mail me at margeeair@aol.com. } |
magichefx
New member
Username: magichefx
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 4.226.223.115
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 5:14 pm: |
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Dear Sisters and Brethren,
You know, I was also raised in the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, but my experience hasn't been a bad one. I care for the Church. I agree that there are some false teachings being taught in the Church, but if you read old letters from those whom started the Church years ago it was prophesied that these false teachings would come if we weren't careful. (I have old documents from my Grandfather, Bro. Loyal Thompson) And in the last 20 years the Church has been recognizing these false doctrines and slowly getting back to the word. There will still be problems with religious people when Jesus comes back for his Church, but these problems with false doctrines and religious leaders has been around since back when Jesus was on the earth and it's not just with the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn. Many denominations and non-denominations have problems with false teachings getting into their churches, talk to them and I'm sure you'll hear things they would like to see different in their churches. False doctrines are from Satan and their like weeds in the garden, if left unattended they will grow up and choke out the truth/good fruit. It doesn't mean we should never visit or plant there, it just means we have to stay on top of the weeds. ;^)
Love and Prayers,
Bro. Brendon Thompson
Feel free to email me
magichefx@mac.com |
leftin1991
Intermediate Member
Username: leftin1991
Post Number: 170
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 63.25.126.223
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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I had some contact with this group near Urbana, Missouri. They had split into two churches, one that believed in women speaking in the church, and one that didn't. That one was led by Al Pruitt. Then that church had another split over the "Sacred Name," and they built another church building just 1 mile down the road. So there were three GA/COFB's in a remote rural area that can't get along and preach different things, in a community of just a few hundred people! |
agapepilgrim
New member
Username: agapepilgrim
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 68.16.94.132
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 12:25 pm: |
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I would like to communicate with anyone who became disillusioned with the Gospel Assembly Churches and all the affliates who base their beginning on William Sowders. I long for a closer, deeper walk with Jesus, rather than be held in bondage by the laws of the minister. Anyone out there searching for the unadulterated truth and beginning of what God revealed to william sowders, without the entrapments of the opinions of "ministers" turned into laws of the churches? |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.124.204
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 1:26 pm: |
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First of all, the Gospel Assembly Church and the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn are NOT one and the same. William Sowder posts should go to another posting. It would seem that tumbleweeds is right on with the result of some of the teachings.
My wife and I grew up in the Firstborn church. There are several friends and family whom I love dearly who still go there. In fact, I know Bro. Brendan Thompson (who posted above), personally, and his entire family. They are very good people including his aforementioned deceased grandfather Brother Loyal Thompson. It is a sad thing to belong to a group of people for so long and then to find out that you were wrong.
My wife and I went by the faith healing teachings and attempted to have our first baby at home. She was born dead. We were saddened and really began to question God. One day after being tired of being tired, I asked God for some real meaty spiritual help. I wanted to know the REAL truth. I spents months literally about 2-3 hours per day without a miss, except for when my dad passed away. I asked God to show me the real truth and then a small still voice said to me "If I show you the truth, will you ACCEPT it?" I said "YES!"
I tracked our church's origins into the Pentecostal movement a little over 100 years ago. There were definitely influences also from Quakers and such. I saw that people were more willing to follow a man who claimed to have a vision that the original deposit of faith already given to us. I found that it went back into the Methodist Church, which had its origins in the Anglican (Episcopallian) Church. The Anglican Church started when King Henry VIII basically declared himself pope. The Anglican Church is a split from Roman Catholics. There is not enough room to detail entire church history here, but I found that the Catholic Church was the original church.
My wife and I converted and our son baptized into the Catholic Church a few years ago. The ones who taught me and convinced me the most were the early church fathers who actually walked with the apostles...names such as Pope Saint Clement, mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Timothy; Ignatius, a disciple of St. John; Polycarp, Ireneaus and of course, St. Augustine. These men were very distinctly Catholic! My wife, son and I have not looked back since. Jesus said that whoever doesn't leave father, mother, brother, sisters or land for my sake is not worthy of me.
I pray that good people such as my dear friend Brendan Thompson, above, will crave the real truth and be willing to step out on faith the accept it. That's real faith!! Lying there dying while neglecting medical care...that ain't faith. In fact it goes against St. James who said that faith without works is dead. There has to be some physical treatment. Doctors can verify miracles; we shouldn't fear them.
God Bless,
Brother Jonathan Cron
jonathancron@centurytel.net |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.124.204
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 2:19 pm: |
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To Tumbleweeds: I pray for God's strength for you to make it through your prior trials. Please do not give up on him. I thank God that you saw the light and the warning signs enough to get out. I hope that you never lost a child during child birth to cause you to see just how rediculous that 'faith healing' ALONE is.
Please email me. I would love to hear from you. Being that your handle is tumbleweeds, then I assume you are from Stillwater. I went to college there and know SEVERAL members of the Church of the Firstborn from my OSU days. I stil love them dearly, but I have chosen truth over a lie.
God Bless!
Jonathan Cron
catholic_man
:-)
jonathancron@centurytel.net |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.124.204
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 1:07 am: |
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My apologies, it is Brendon not Brendan. Sorry about that. Brendon and his family are really good people. I stand by that.
Jonathan |
eldersson
New member
Username: eldersson
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 207.134.66.219
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 2:46 pm: |
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Anyone dealt with the congregations in Southern California and oregon? My sister and I have recently been marked from the church by our father, and are looking for lost relatives....
I also have many questions if anyone would like to relate their experiences! |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:12 pm: |
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Eldersson,
Well, this is interesting. I know some of the GA&COFB (General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn) brethren in California and Oregon. However, my roots come from Oklahoma. My grandparents were part of the original assembly in Rocky, Oklahoma. I grew up in Hobart, Oklahoma and then moved around to the Homestead, Oklahoma church and know a majority of those in all of the assemblies in that state. I also spent time in Weatherford, Stillwater and Tulsa, Oklahoma (where I met and married my wife). Our son was born in Tulsa in 2001.
Two of my sisters married into the churches in Indiana. One of my brother-in-laws is a Nation and an elder of the church there in Indiana. My younger sister divorced and moved back to Hobart, Oklahoma.
My experience has been really tough. We really ‘lived the faith’ the best that we knew how and according to what most ministers taught in the church. We lost a still born little girl in a mid-wife delivery at home in 1997 while assembling at Hobart at the time. My wife and I were devastating and it put a strain on the marriage. I remember a minister from Parkland, Oklahoma stating that his sister ‘left the faith’ because she had her baby at the hospital. That way of thinking is really sad. We moved to the Dallas area for a while and were around a lot of really good GA&COFB people. However, something just didn’t seem right. Finally we moved back to Tulsa and then now to Colorado where we briefly assembled at the GA&COFB in Fort Lupton…again some really good people. However, in my journey truth would finally prevail.
My wife, son and I were no longer ‘scared’ into religion and decided that God was just. Therefore, I spent months several hours a day praying, reading God’s word and reading writings from the early church fathers…men who walked and were taught by the apostles personally. The consensus…they were very distinctly Catholic.
Easter of 2005, we converted to Catholicism and have been the happiest we’ve ever been about our relationship with God and with each other. My heart warms seeing my son’s eyes light up and his love for Jesus.
Sorry so long, but there is so much to tell in our faith journey. I realized that I have a lot more brethren than the ‘exclusive’ mentality of GA&COFB.
Oh by the way, my younger sister took the challenge to read the early church fathers. After several months she called me and came to the same conclusions as me. She and her four children are now Catholic, too. I am thankful that people are beginning to see the real truth, at least about GA&COFB. Not everyone may agree with me about Catholicism and my love for it, but so long as we grow as brethren that’s the most important thing. I would like to point out a chapter from the Catholic bible called Book of Sirach, Chapter 38 part of the original canon of scripture that talks about doctors and God’s opinion of them…makes you respect that profession.
If you would like to dialogue, please email me at jonathancron@centurytel.net .
God Bless! ;-) |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:18 pm: |
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Here's the 38th Chapter of Sirach that I mentioned. In fact, the quote below comes from the ORIGINAL King James Version, prior to Protestants REMOVING it from their bibles.
1: Honour a physician with the honour due unto him for the uses which ye may have of him: for the Lord hath created him.
2: For of the most High cometh healing, and he shall receive honour of the king.
3: The skill of the physician shall lift up his head: and in the sight of great men he shall be in admiration.
4: The Lord hath created medicines out of the earth; and he that is wise will not abhor them.
5: Was not the water made sweet with wood, that the virtue thereof might be known?
6: And he hath given men skill, that he might be honoured in his marvellous works.
7: With such doth he heal [men,] and taketh away their pains.
8: Of such doth the apothecary make a confection; and of his works there is no end; and from him is peace over all the earth,
9: My son, in thy sickness be not negligent: but pray unto the Lord, and he will make thee whole.
10: Leave off from sin, and order thine hands aright, and cleanse thy heart from all wickedness.
11: Give a sweet savour, and a memorial of fine flour; and make a fat offering, as not being.
12: Then give place to the physician, for the Lord hath created him: let him not go from thee, for thou hast need of him.
13: There is a time when in their hands there is good success.
14: For they shall also pray unto the Lord, that he would prosper that, which they give for ease and remedy to prolong life.
15: He that sinneth before his Maker, let him fall into the hand of the physician. |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.209.230
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:24 am: |
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I married into the "faith" as my mother-inlaw refers to the GA&COFB. My husband is a non practicing member. I have mixed emotions about the church doctine. To begin with I have not found anything written down to define what the church really believes. Brother Brendon, I would love to hear more about the origination of the church, when and by whom, and why was it started. My husbands family have been members for years, however, don't really know much about the church history or so they claim. I really believe there are people in the church that are sincere in their belief and they are truly loving and caring people who love God and their brothers and sisters in Christ. The church does take care of its own, better than most other deminations. Yes, I believe this church can be classified as a cult,due to the mind control being practiced by some. I know that my husband has suffered a great deal of mental quilt due to his raising. Catholic_Man I am truly supprised to hear of a person leaving the church of the first born to become a catholic. In fact I do not hear much about people leaving and joining another domination. Mostly they just leave..... Tumbleweeds, I am truly sorry you had such as hard time. Hopefully in time with Gods help you can forgive those that did you wrong.
Glorycloud |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 3:33 am: |
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glorycloud2006,
Part I
I'm glad to hear that your are open to God.
I never intended on becoming a Catholic. I started out asking God for some answers, such as how the CFOB started. I stumbled onto some very interesting situations back in the late 1980's. A fellow brother (old enough to be my grandfather) and I talked about it. He mentioned that the Followers of Christ (largest is a 1200 member church in Oregon) and CFOB were related. There was a Followers of Christ church nearby our town.
We went for a visit and noticed that their 'liturgy' was very structured. Men sat on one side; women, the other. Church service started out with the three elders praying (everyone kneeling at their seat), then the men would pray on the first row in order and then on back until the back row. When they finished, the sisters would start praying row by row. The elders would read from scripture one by one and then the last one gave a short sermon. Lastly, the brothers would testify row by row; likewise, the women.
To make a long story short, we were just trying to be 'brotherly' and they practically kicked us out. In my opinion at the time, we rejoiced that several of their members became open to us and started assembling with us at Homestead, Oklahoma. Some even traveled occasionally to Vici, Oklahoma.
One of the elders we met had the last name of 'Reece'. I found out about his, I believe, great grandfather Marion Reece. Marion apparently had some sort of apocolyptic vision and through ties with people involved in the Pentecostal movement out of in Kansas, he started his own church around Chanute, Kansas.
Some notable names of the early brethren...around end of 1800's to beginning of 1900's was of course, Marion Reece,Walter White, Charlie White and Vern Baldwin. They spread out across the US from Kansas to Indiana, Oklahoma, California, Idaho, Oregon, Washington and even a small assembly in Canada. However, tension existed among their ranks and soon some splits occured. The most notable for us was that in World War I, the brethren were asked for the name of their church for conscientious objectors. This is the story my grandfather always told. He died at age 99 back in 1991 and saw how the church started. He hailed from Rocky, Oklahoma, which was one of the very first assemblies in that state...along with the Fay assembly. Anyway the church simply called themselves the Followers of Christ or the 'True Followers', but had to settle on an official name. A brother by the last name of Hays started many of the Oklahoma churches.
The name they chose was 'General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn' and they did indeed split from the Followers of Christ. The early brethren were travelers, moving around fromIn my quest for TRUTH,I found it. I really wanted to track the church clear back to Christ. I really wanted to substantiate the church and people whom I still love dearly.
However, my journey kept taking me back. Mind you, I spent at minimum of 2 hours each day for several months studying the word and church history...my own little research project of faith. Some days we would get our son to bed and I would stay up for about 4-5 hours researching.
Jonathan |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 3:35 am: |
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PART II
I traced the Pentecostal movement, which began in Kansas, and is really the root of COFB, to the Methodist Church. The Methodist Church started when John Wesley got a group of people together at Oxford College to study the bible. They ended up somewhat separating from the Anglican Church of England to form their own church. The Anglican Church of England started around 1531 when King Henry VIII declared himself 'pope' or leader of the Anglican communion. He beheaded several priests and faithful Catholics, because the pope would not grant him a divorce (annulment) from his wife.
This means that the Anglican communion was a break from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, well, goes all the way back to Christ when he told Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church". Peter is a Greek word for 'Rock'. His name was really Simon, but Jesus gave him the nickname of Peter...or 'Rock'.
I really didn't want to become Catholic, but yet I wanted the truth. Therefore, I ignored the past couple hundred years of church history and focused exclusively on the first 300 years of it.
I found writings, such as Pope St. Clement's letters to the Corinthians (larger letters than even St. Paul's). In fact, St. Paul mentioned Clement by name in one of the bible writings. The only reason his letters were not included in the original canon of the bible was because he did not meet Jesus, physically speaking.
The Council of Carthage of 397 decided on how the final canon of the New Testament which includes 27 books. The deciding factor as to what would be included and what not laid in whoever walked with Jesus PHYSICALLY. Of course, Apostle Paul met him after the resurrection when Jesus blinded him. Well, it was the pope who made the final decree and final approval as to what would be included.
Your bible, of course written by apostles or scribes on their behalf, like it or not, came from the Catholic Church. In fact, around 250 AD, St. Eusebius said that the books from James to Revelation were commonly called the 'Catholic' letters. The bible is a Catholic book.
The name of the church came from Jesus' commission to sendout the apostles to preach and baptize (Matt 28:18-20). The term 'Catholic' means 'Universal', or 'one church for ALL'. St. Igatius (ordained a bishop by St. John) said in 107AD:
“Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.” — Letter to the Smyrnaeans
I hope you keep seeking God on your journey. Don't be affraid to step out on faith and love for God. CFOB want people to feel guilty to 'think outside the box'. They try to strike fear that you will go to Hell just for asking. My bible says to ask and it will be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened! Don't let people scare you.
I really struggled with feelings of FEAR at first, but then the Holy Spirit gave me comfort and let me see the truth even when I didn't want the truth to be true.
God bless!
Jonathan
jonathancron@centurytel.net |
eldersson
New member
Username: eldersson
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 207.134.66.219
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 6:21 pm: |
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Catholic man, thank you. All I can say is wow. I was raised in the “faith” since birth. Born to a preacher and prophet, my upbringing was strict to say it best. Life revolved around nothing but GOD and the brethren. School, work, relationships, etc…..all nothing if it wasn’t bringing some type of glory to GOD.
The reason I am searching for info is this: In 1993 (or close to it), the large congregation my father was being “groomed” to be elder of split suddenly and abruptly. The majority of my family was involved, and the groups split into 3. One group ventured to Nampa, Idaho, the other to Monroe or Junction City Oregon, and the last stayed in Southern California. My father had 10 brothers and sisters, all members of the church, and needless to say I lost a lot of aunts, uncles and cousins.
From what I understand, a relatively typical situation in the COFB. One group marks the other, brothers are marked for talking to marked sisters, everyone marks everyone and then they all go home. NOW, for the strange part.
There was some type of altercation during a Sunday meeting that sparked the whole ordeal. From what info I have gathered, some claim it was a possession of sorts. The elders barricaded themselves in the church; judging each one who came to the door as to their worthiness. The rules changed: only those who had sold everything, and I mean everything, were considered faithful. Brethren were splaying their personal belongings on the front lawn, giving things away to the neighborhood. Most men quit their jobs and camped out at the church. It was obviously hysteria.
Yet I couldn’t find one current member of the church willing to talk to me about what happened. Suddenly the facts were blurry, or the stories made up. Now an amicable split is portrayed when we all know good and well no one leaves the COFB on good terms. They don’t just shake hands and walk away.
The last straw for me was my mother. She refused medical attention when she fell ill my junior year in high school. She was soon unable to walk or eat, and slowly withered away to nothing. The week before my mother passed away, I attended my fathers meeting in Oregon. I was given a prophesy by a sister who told of my mothers “great sacrifice and strength in the eyes of the LORD”, and told me that “GOD was extremely pleased with your mother, and for her faithfulness, she will be healed.” “Have faith in the LORD, and you will soon see your mother rise again.” My mother died on June 21, 1996. She had a small blockage in her small intestine, and the autopsy revealed it could have been removed in an outpatient setting.
I was marked at the beginning of the year for seeking out my lost family and asking questions. I was told I had opened my heart to Satan, and that my desire to seek out those brethren who were “dead” had led to my heart being deceived. I was overjoyed at first. I had unlocked about 2/3 of my family that my father had marked for one reason or the other. My family which was 95% COFB dwindled to just my father. All 10 of his brothers and sisters were marked by him, and now he has only 1 of my sisters. (there’s 4 of us)
I just wanna know if this is typical. I was taught my whole life that any life mistakes were making GOD angry. Everything made GOD angry or happy. Does my upbringing compare to anyone else’s? Is this a different “strain”, if you will, of the church? HELP! |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 9:35 pm: |
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Eldersson,
I know about these parking lot brawls over interpretation of the Word. At the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn in Rocky, Oklahoma, during the 1940-50s a man with a folding chair lunged at my grandfather who was a faithful member and preacher at the church. I still have several family members and an uncle who is a preacher there.
My immediate family, however, assembled at the Hobart, Oklahoma church where my mom still lives. A couple of years ago my father passed away. At one time he called for the kids and requested a visit to the doctor due to the unbearable pain. However, due to fear of the masses, so to speak, he denied the medical care in favor of suffering at home without any medicine by faith alone. He would have lost a leg in a surgical procedure but may still be alive today.
I always asked about where St. James says in his 2nd chapter that faith alone without works is dead. COFB brethren always came up with some inventive explanation instead of taking it at face value. That particular passage talks about seeing to someone’s physical needs…plain and simple. That’s what doctors do. Faith by itself is not sufficient! I remember lots of dancing around it, but you can’t. Earlier I posted the 38th Chapter of Sirach passage that talks about the doctor. In fact, historically speaking according to Tradition, that is where James came up with the subject. He even quoted a couple of versus from Sirach in the 4th Chapter of James. The point wasn’t to call for the elders and expect a miracle…like some COFB goers would think. No! Not at all! It is talking about cleansing the soul before death or during a major illness. The emphasis is on the anointing of the sick and the confession of sins. In the Catholic Church we abide 7 sacraments (physical means of grace by Jesus). They are baptism, confirmation (laying on of hands), eucharist (Lord’s supper or ordinance supper), holy orders, holy matrimony, anointing of the sick and confession of sins. The slang for the anointing of the sick is familiar sounding to many…’the last rites’ given prior to death.
Like you, I grew up in the church all the way back to my grandfather who died at age 99 back in 1991. I know about the splits that occurred in Oklahoma between Rocky, Fay and then practically everyone else. The problem?? Self interpretation!! The bible itself says that scripture is not of PRIVATE interpretation. Then why do we do it? In the Catholic church we have what is called the Magisterium of the church. By definition it is the teaching authority of the bishops in communion with the pope as handed down by the Apostles. In fact, we have what’s called a Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here’s a link to it online… http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/ . I hope that you continue praying and God to lead you into the truth…the bark of Peter…the office of the Bishop of Rome…the pope. Including St. Peter there have been 265 popes in direct line succession. In fact, Peter’s tomb is under the Vatican…which is why the Vatican is there. It is a huge relief to finally know the truth; it will set you free.
God Bless!
Jonathan, your brother in Christ! |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.209.230
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:13 pm: |
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Wow Eldersson, I have never heard about your family or the things that transpired in the california church. What is meant by 'marking'. Is this like 'shunning' in the Amish community?
My husband and I went to church a few times with his folks after we got married and then we moved out of state for four years. After we moved back, except for funerals, we never went to the COFB anymore. |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:38 pm: |
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glorycloud2006,
I cannot speak for eldersson, but I can relate with 'marking'! It was a common practice of the Rocky COFB and Fay. This 'doctrine' was known as 'rejection'. That's what caused trouble at Rocky...prophecies spoken that said something like, "You're no son of mine anymore! Say, God!" I always thought that speaking prophecies had its dangers due to people saying what they want based on an emotion and then tagging on "thus saith the LORD!".
I will say this...that alot of the members of COFB are really good, well meaning people. You could drop a dollar on the floor and it would be there the next day, figuratively speaking. Alot that I know are good, honest and hard working people. I never rejected the good things I learned as I grew up in the church, but like I say, truth was more important.
Brendon (who posted above)and his family are really good people. I knew his uncle Jimmy Thompson before he died. He preached the word with charism and true authentic love for God's people. We need more people like him to show their love.
God Bless!
Jonathan |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.209.230
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 12:42 am: |
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Catholic_man
I seem to remember the 'prophecies'. I never quite understood where this fit scripturally... The few times we went to the COFB was in Sapulpa OK.
I am glad that you have found a church family you can worship and fellowship with other christians. This is so important. My husband has never felt comfortable with any other denomination, but he has went with me to church off and on.
I think its inportant to be comfortable with where one worships, however, as you say, the truth is inportant and every denomination has man's concept of God added to the doctrine, some almost to the point that its difficult to find any of the doctrine to be scriptual.
I appreciate all of the history you've given me about the COFB. Some of it is hard to believe as it doesn't fit the profile of the people I knew.
Good night for now.
Glorycloud2006 |
catholic_man
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Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
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My wife is from Tulsa, we occasionally assembled at the Sapulpa church. I am acquainted with the Ellis family. An elder's daughter named Pamela and my wife were really good friends.
I will never knock anyone trying to serve the Lord. I just have a problem with it when the lives of little children are at stake due to 'faith healing' practices. Having faith in God is a wonderful thing...no doubt. However, I think God expects us to use common sense. That is one of the ways we love God...our soul, heart, MIND and strength. I believe that those who put forth an earnest effort to serve God will be in heaven. That is also the stance of the Catholic Church...God only judges people according to their deeds (the bible says so) not their religious affiliation; God only judges according to the light you're given.
Yes, there are some really good COFB brethren especially around the Sapulpa and Tulsa (Eastland assembly)area. The ones at Tulsa Dawson seem to be a little stricter in all the wrong ways, but that's where my wife grew up. Her parents occasionally go to Dawson, but her uncle and aunt assemble at the Tulsa-Eastland church. I have relatives in that church, too, if you've ever heard of Bro. Clifford Hutton (passed away the same week as my father).
Again, really good moral people. I just chose truth, but I will never diss the good parts of my background and the good things I learned.
May the Lord be with you!
Jonathan |
catholic_man
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Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.121.170
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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Clarification:
MOST COFB don't use the 'rejection' doctrine; it is fairly exclusive to Rocky, Fay and their 'satellite' assemblies. The sister church known as the Followers of Christ tend to use it to a certain degree. There are definitely those in COFB who have tendencies toward that doctrine who make you feel guilty for going to the doctor and who claim that you have 'left the faith' by seeking medical care...sad deal!
My parents were a little more in between when it came to medical care. They weren't quite as rigid about it, but when it came down to the end for my dad he refused medical care and died as a result.
Ut Unim Sint!
Shalom!
Jonathan
(Message edited by catholic_man on December 01, 2006) |
glorycloud2006
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Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.209.230
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
|
Catholic-Man
I remember Calvin and Hazel Ellis. Sweet people. I heard they no longer belong to the COFB. Remember May Myers and her family. I'm sure there were more just don't remember names.
Even though I remember good people, I have heard bad things as well.
Our government is getting more involved with infant deaths both in Ok, Colorado and Oregon.
I’m sure in time, if it isn't now, it will be a crime to not take a sick child to the doctor. I realize the medical profession is perfect either; at least the child has a fighting chance if intervention is quick enough.
Why don’t you start a Catholic forum. (this one was started to discuss COFD)
Glorycloud |
contented_lady
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Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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Re: Vici & North Enid Churches, & Tumbleweed:
My Grandparents were "Marked" about 1931, for calling attention to false teachings. To my understanding, NO ONE "stood against" them re. their Faithfulness. Only their nonconformity to the "new" teaching, which contradicted Bro. Raleigh Cunningham's original Wisdom. Another family was "Marked" at that time for similar reasons.
My Father continued in the Church until around 1937, then "dusted his feet", because so much of Bro. Raleigh's teachings were tossed out OR abused.
My Father-in-law began the North Enid Church, in his home. Jack Robinson bore false witness against him about 1959, and he was "Marked".
The Vici Church has TREMENDOUS power over my area. The majority of Vici School Board members are of the faith. Our new County Commissioner is. And, they continue to "make or break" businesses.
It has nurtured GREED, HYPOCRISY to the Word of God, respecters of person, manipulation in word & deed & FEAR--IMMENSE FEAR--within and with outsiders of the Church. Corruption runs amuck. As does INBREEDING.
I ran across this board yesterday & called my Father-in-law. He would be glad to talk to anyone who has left the Church, been "Marked", or about the changes in these 2 Churches, but he doesn't have online services.
He continues to follow the Original Ways, but "New ones" drive far into the country to harass him, and a few to actually listen to the Old Ways & glean from them.
My husband works with a current Elder, and we have many family members involved in the hierarchy. Otherwise, we kindly avoid members as much as possible.
However, my husband did confront the Elder he works with. The man watched his 17 or 18 year old son, lay on the sofa and die a few years ago. (Antibiotics would have saved the young man.)But, at work, he was bragging about how much money he'd made in his IRA, by INVESTING IN MEDICAL STOCKS.
Though, we choose to use medical aid occasionally, this Elder doesn't. My husband confronted him on "profiteering on sin", since he believes medical aid is sin. My husband was armed with the Word of God. The Elder was armed merely with Church Doctrine. GOD won the battle.
We don't attend any Church. We just choose to live as we Believe, and maintain Peace in our lives, judging only works & deeds, but not the people. We don't argue with people, but live a simple, quiet life.
Tumbleweed, realization of errors in Faith, is painful. Separation is as well. Your experiences are so like my Mother's. Dead babies. Babies born "blue". One damaged at birth, and my Mom's unbelievable guilt over the child's inability to walk, because the church declared it was because Mom had committed a sin. Daily challenges that few women could ever bear. May God Bless you and grant you strength.
I hope something here is of use to someone. I am admittedly AFRAID someone from one of these 2 churches will run across this, know exactly who I am, and find a way to inflict punishment on my husband and me. I don't want trouble. I only wish to voice experiences & possibly be useful to someone here.
contented_lady |
glorycloud2006
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Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.210.204
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 1:42 pm: |
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Contented Lady.
All I can say is WoW! So much mind control... I will ask you as I have ask before on this forum. Do you have access to any written doctrine. No one seems to have anything written down. The elders are making it up as they go.. At least that is the way it appears.
And what do you mean by Inbreeding?The reason I am asking is: I heard through my sister inlaw that there was a elder that sexually abused his daughter. There was a police report as well. I was under the understanding this was an isolated avent not something that was happening in the church.
Glorycloud |
contented_lady
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Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
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As I understand, you "married into the faith". In the churches I know about, the spouse MUST join the church and be baptized into the church (not just baptized into Christ's family). My Mother and one Uncle, a Nephew & a Cousin married INTO the faith.
The inbreeding in this area comes from cousins marrying cousins. There are so many already related in some way, that they've become quite concerned about it, and have begun having weeklong social events (Bluegrass festivals & such) with GA&COFB from other states, so young people can meet non-blood related matches.
I have heard of sexual abuse in the Vici church, but only know of one case for a fact. (It went to court.) A little girl was molested by her own bloodline Grandfather.
There was a rumor when I was young, that a man would bed his own bloodline daughter because his wife was very ill. But, though I tend to believe it, I can't be certain.
There were no written doctrines, in the beginning of these churches, because the Bible provided the doctrine. NOW, there is supposed to be a written doctrine, compiled by the Elders.
My Father in Law told me there used to be a woman they called a Scribe who wrote down such things as
actual miracles, and such. Not a doctrine, but more of a Testimonial documentation.
You, my dear, are a PUZZLE. If you are "married in" how on earth are you able to still question and have the freedom to be inquisitive??? You don't appear to be controlled, so I assume your husband is non-practicing. It makes me wonder if you cut your hair as well. ha
The churches I'm acquainted with, don't allow the women to cut their hair. The longer the hair--generally piled on top of the head--the more pious the woman is said to be. I know other sectors of the church vary, according to what the Elders denote as proper, though.
The Elders run everything. But, the Elders I'm familiar with, are well versed in the Church, but poorly versed Biblically. Not what my understanding of the original Elders were like at all.
contented_lady |
glorycloud2006
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Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.210.204
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 4:07 pm: |
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Contented Lady
As I mentioned earlier, My husband is a non practicing member.
We went to church when we were young. I was treated with kindness and welcomed to the Sapulpa church when we did go however,
I never joined and my husband never forced the issue. Maybe I led him astray......
I will say this, he has always been kind, considerate, and loving toward me and our children. Totally different then what appears to be the norm for the men in this group. Also I think I had the best in-laws although I didn’t always agree with them on child raising. They do treat me like a daughter.
Yes I am very curious about COFB. I have two main hobbies. One is genealogy and the other is church doctrine and history. And since I am indirectly connected to this church, I have a lot of curiosity.
Yes, I have cut my hair, although the first time, my husband’s family just about had a cow. I am not a pious women, although I do wear it longer now then I use to, my husband does like it better long. I’m not so sure this is a COFB things or just a male thing. Men do seem to like long hair on a women.
I would like to read the church doctrine if someone has a copy that they can put on this forum, I think that would be great as well as educational for others as well.
I hope I am not such a puzzle to you now.
Glorycloud |
contented_lady
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Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 4:46 pm: |
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Glorycloud
Puzzle pleasantly solved.
Your husband & inlaws sounds a lot like mine. So, maybe the Sapulpa Church is more like the Original Church. I hope so.
In your quest for GA&COFB doctrine, I would really like to know if you discover WHO decided it was all right to go to the optometrist & Dentist (even get the shots for dental work), and it's all right for your cattle to go to the vet & even be vaccinated, but NOT all right to vaccinate your children and seek medical attention for them or your wife--only cattle.
Bro. Raleigh taught to seek Divine healing and have Faith, but that not all of us are strong enough in Faith to achieve desired healing, and those should seek medical attention, IF needed.
Letting a teenager scream to death over a painful burst appendix and having women die in childbirth,
and children die, simply because they needed an antibiotic, seems far more important to me than taking a cow to the vet or getting glasses or dental care.
contented_lady |
slickywoowoo
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Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Part 2
I am sorry for those here who have been hurt by the Church, I will pray for you and your journeys. Mine, has been a wild ride. My dad was raised in the faith, my mom came from out of the world they were both baptized on the same day after all there kids were born, and I remember standing by the waters edge at 5 years old smelling the air and listening to ripples on the river knowing at 5 years old, this is how Jesus did it. If nothing in the church ever made since, and if it never does, standing there at the waters edge did, I have never lost that feeling, and I have never forgotten it, praise God I am a child of the Most High God, and I happen to go to a Church called The General Assembly and church of The Firstborn. I love you my brothers and sisters.
Slickywoowoo. |
slickywoowoo
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Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:12 pm: |
|
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:05 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part 1
Hello,
I am a 29 year old single woman who has a child (I have never been married)and I was rasied and am still part of the church. Imagine my problems. However, I love the church and the brethren. There are good brotheren in the church, few and far between but they are there. I believe God has given me a strong back bone in the scriptures and I do use it. We are commanded to win our brother back when they err, unfortunately, most of the church is in err, but not by scripture but by there own vain imaginations. I have caused a couple of Elders from the church to "fall out of their chairs" when I have blantely told them, "You know, what you are implying can not be backed up by scripture" (whatever the subject may be on, if they are not speaking truth, and they are speaking on the traditions of men and not on the commandments of Christ, those of you familar with the church know that as a woman I already have 3 strikes against me in saying anything, when they are wrong I will say so. I do follow the doctorine of not cutting the hair, but not because men say it is wrong, but simply put, scripture says it is better for a woman to have long hair. I have doctored and I have sought medical attention for my daughter. I have been chastized by the elders for doing so, and I have told them with as much love as I can, "whew, I sure am glad that you are not my judge" and leave it at that. No they do not like seeing me come, but I have never caused a problem or stepped out of line. When asked a direct question, I give them a direct answer out of the word. I date in the world, "Oh NOOOOO", I witness to the world, I have learned so much from other denominations, and yet, I do not long to leave the GA/COTF. It is the only church I hope to be apart of. I had to read and study for myself. "Study to show thyself approved". I am not happy what man has done to this church and it brakes my heart that we practice all the things Christ did, The greeting, the ordinance supper, the washing of the saints feet, total submerssion baptism, laying on of hands to heal the sick, and yet greatest commandment of all " Love thy neighboor as thyself" is the one thing they do not and can not practice (some mind you not all) I want my daughter in this church. There is a younger stronger generation coming up behind me that they too, at a very young age already have the wisdom to see where the church has erred and they are preaching hard and fast on truth and they are staying away from tradition. I believe God is rebirthing the church. There is a huge generation gap. From the age 30 to 45, there is no one that age around. They have left. The younger generation is coming up. So pray for us. Those who have left the church, I ask you to pray for those of us that you once adored and clung to, those you asked for prayers from, pray for us. We are in trying times right now, it is hard for me to face the false teachers and the false prophets, and the hypocrites, and the liars and the cheaters, and the abusers, but when I meet them in church, it is there that I meet Jesus Christ as well. I too have many, many sins, and many many faults, but it is I who will stand before God at the end of the days as an individual, not as a memeber of The General Assembly and Church of The Firstborn. The name will not matter. |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 7:17 pm: |
|
Slickywoowoo
You sound so much like the Original GA&COFB! Your use of God's Word as your basis and means of discernment, and MY what STRENGTH of Spirit you have been Blessed with!
I do Pray for the Church. Mostly that it will return to the use of God's Word more than man's, maintain the good that remains and build upon it.
It's wonderful that you have been able to speak and not been marked & set aside! God can use you to help others! Each Church is different, and yours seems to be more open. PLEASE cease every opportunity to AID your Church in getting back to Scripture, and to use DISCERNMENT when the Doctrine of Man is brought out.
I have mid-back length hair for the same reason, by choice.
Our son is 31, and falls into the gap. Many of the young ladies his age, in this area, abandoned the Church because it dissuaded higher education for them.
Bless you and your efforts and fortitude!
contented_lady |
catholic_man
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Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.118.146
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
|
I either have known or am familiar with several of the names mentioned in the posts since my last one. I grew up part of my life at the Homestead church, not far from Enid. We occasionally assembled at Enid and knew Jack Robinson and family rather well. However, my brother and I primarily went to Vici during our high school years as there were A LOT of young kids there at the time.
Although I am no longer a member of COFB, I still respect the good and sincere people. But, I cannot go along with a church that is so far off that it no longer resembles the original church handed down from the saints of yore.
Here is an enumeration of most of the doctrines I used to hear hammered at us:
• Women, don’t cut your hair!
• You’re in sin for going to the doctor, but okay if dentist or optometrist
o My dad called them the ‘head-up’ doctors
o They say that you’ve ‘left the faith’ for going to a surgeon
• Must greet with a holy kiss…don’t really have a problem with this one, personally
• Must live close to the ‘in’ crowd
Yes, there is a lot of mind control. My wife and I lost a still born by trying to go by the church doctrine. Please see the post on Sirach, Chapter 38 above. It was in the original cannon of the bible in the original King James Version. KJV is what COFB swears by.
Like I say, I will never shun the good things I learned while there, nor will my wife who was also raised in GA&COFB. However, we have moved on with our lives. My wife truly cares for people, which is why she is a nurse and finally overcame the ‘fear’ that COFB wants to strike in her. Not ALL COFB are against doctors, but I don’t see how the 2nd chapter of James can be any clearer…“Faith without works is dead, being alone! Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works.”
God Bless
Jonathan |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.118.146
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:31 pm: |
|
Part II
Sorry so long...
Some other doctrines that I remember varied from assembly to assembly.
Some taught:
Can't wear gold!
Women cannot wear makeup...must wear dress.
Men can wear what they want! Sexist if you ask me.
Should be used in one of the gifts: prophecy, preaching, etc.; some I remember gave testimonies that I called 'preachimonies'.
In my opinion prophecies are too easily believed; not that we would question God, but that we should not just jump if a prophecy says to jump!
I read an article not long ago how that a Pentecostal woman traveled around teaching congregants how to speak in tongues, prophecy, etc. Among the crowd sat a priest from a foreign country. At the end of the session everyone shook her hand and thanked her for the lessons. When the priest showed up next in line a tear ran down his face. She asked, 'were you touched!' He said, "No, but I heard you curse God in my native tongue. How can you do this?"
That is the danger of tongues and prophecy when not understood correctly.
Love you all!
Jonathan |
glorycloud2006
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Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.210.204
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:15 am: |
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Rules to live by in the Church of the First Born.
1.People are taught that to leave and go somewhere else is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, and there is no hope after that.
2.To believe that any other Christian from other denominations could go to heaven is likewise blasphemy and denying the "true faith
3. If you or your children go to the doctor or take medicine, you are denying God and he will not help you anymore. He may even take your children to punish you.
4.The church is maintained by fear, not love.
5.Everything makes GOD angry or happy.
6.A person can be ‘Marked’ which is called the doctrine of rejection, which means he or she can no longer communicate with the church people. This is done by the elders.
7.Women cannot cut their hair. The longer the hair the more pious the woman.
8.The elders run the church.
9.Women are discouraged from seeking higher education.
10. Its ok to go to a dentist or optometrist but not a doctor or surgeon.
11.Must greet each other with a holy kiss…
12.Cannot wear gold.
13.Women cannot wear makeup.
14.Women must wear dresses.
15.Men can wear what they want.
This list has been complied from various comments in this discussion group. As I read the list I am sad. No where do I see the love of God or his grace in this list of requirements. No where do I see Joy in serving God in this list. Granted if God wanted me to abide by the rules in order to show him that I am worthy of his grace, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Thank God I don’t have to. The blood of Jesus Christ covers all my sins and because his blood was shed I have salvation. It is a gift, no strings attached other than my acceptance.
Which I have accepted. Praise God!!! To quote Slickywoowoo It is “I” who will stand before God at the end of the days, as an individual, not as a member of The General Assembly and Church of The Firstborn or ‘the first Baptist church’ or any other church doctrine I choose to learn about or worship God at. The name will not matter. Whether I fed the hungry, clothed the naked, sheltered the homeless, visited the widowed and those in prison, and loved my neighbor will be much more important than whether I wore makeup, dresses, or cut my hair.
Good Night All
Glorycloud |
catholic_man
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Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.118.146
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 1:09 am: |
|
glorycloud2006 said, "The name will not matter. Whether I fed the hungry, clothed the naked, sheltered the homeless, visited the widowed and those in prison, and loved my neighbor will be much more important than whether I wore makeup, dresses, or cut my hair."
I totally agree; it won't be a Baptist heaven, Firstborn heaven, Catholic heaven, Pentecostal heaven, Methodist heaven...nope! Heaven will simply be heaven and Hell will certainly be Hell. God said that he isn't a respector of persons. You nailed it my stating the 'Corporeal Works of Mercy' as it is called in Matthew, chapter 25.
"For as much as you did it not to the least of one of these, you did it not unto me." The quote is not exact, but I have to agree with you.
It is all about love. The 2nd chapter of 1 Corinthians says something like "And I brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom. For I determined not to know anything among you EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. And I was WITH YOU in WEAKNESS, and in FEAR and in MUCH TREMBLING."
It is not about ME. It is all about HIM! I'm no saviour and I'm no saint, but Jesus died for me. When I enter the church I attend now, I look up at the crucifix and see Jesus on the cross. It should have been me.
This is where I feel like people struggle in marriage. Although I have been married now for about 13 years I am still no 'advisor'. However, one lesson that I learned that I try to share with the 25 young church kids in my class is "Don't use the mindset that you need to find someone to FILL YOU UP, to find someone to PUT YOU ON A CLOUD. Nope! Jesus taught us a lesson in the scriptures where it said that he EMPTIED himself for the sake of the cross. Therefore, are we being selfish in ME, ME, ME! Or is it about HIM? What sacrifices are you willing to give up to make a marriage work (aside from putting up with abuse, etc.)? True love is cleaning baby vomit off your shoulder and not getting mad about it. Rose colored glasses can be blinders. True love is being willing to change a stinky diaper!"
There are lots of good COFB people in that church. However, too many of them teach that preaching on Love is TOO SOFT. We can never have enough love. In fact, sacred scripture gives us a list of things (love being at the top) and says 'against such there is no law!' What that means is that there is 'no limit'. The more...the better!
God bless all!
Jonathan |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
|
Glorycloud, some of the things listed don't fit the Vici Church. Women here can wear what they want. Even jeans. And gold is definitely accepted by the "New Ways". In fact, not only is it worn to adorn the body, but many have a mouthful of gold tooth fillings.
Likewise, in the "Old Ways" we were to "Owe no man, but that ye love one another." Admittedly, my husband & I have nearly $6K of debt right now. We lacked a bit of cash to purchase our home. We owe it to a bank--an institution--not to "man", but we're uncomfortable with it and are quickly taking care of it.
I know of several GA&COFB struggling financially to pay on large amounts of land. This seems strange to me. Perhaps another change in Doctrine. Now many of the womenfolk work outside the home to help financially.
I'm a Homemaker. I manage finances and our household, and am available for all the neighborhood children, especially those who have both parents working, and those from alcoholic and drug involved homes. It's very fulfilling , but you never know what each day will bring.
Catholic_man, I'm not Catholic. But, our son is being inducted into something called the St. Barts Hall of Fame tomorrow night. He is an 82nd Airborne paratrooper, currently working in Intelligence. I believe St. Bart is the Patron Saint of Infantry, but am not sure.
He doesn't call this a "War on Terror". He says a "Jihad" was declared against us, and he's felt that nasty spirit in Afghanistan, and during 2 tours in Iraq. He walked in Hilla, Iraq, and felt the most evil of spirits. Later, I found out that Hilla was built with much of the remains of Babylon.
contented_lady |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.209.230
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
|
Contented Lady
The list I put together was from all of the comments made through this discussion group.
I'm sure there are variances in all the churches.
I am envious of you being able to stay at home. I stayed home with my children until they reached school age then I went to work outside the home.
I do work out of my home three days a week via laptop logged into the corporate network. Then two days a week I drive 75 miles one way to our plant and back. Makes for a really long day.
I suspect we are close in age as you have children over thirty as do I.
I see you have a son in the military which brings up the conscious objector issue. I though the COFB didn’t believe in serving in the armed forces. I am the only one in my family that didn’t serve. My husband and both children served. I tend to get a little irate about people that enjoy our freedom, ie choice of religion among many others but don’t think they should participate in defending that freedom. They can always serve somewhere in the military without having to bare arms. As you can tell this is my pet peeve.
Glorycloud |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
|
Glorycloud
I will try to be brief, but we have so much in common. Don't be fooled. It's difficult to work at being a Homemaker, these days. I've had to learn how to trade on the stock market. We've had to sacrifice desires to live beneath our means, and hardest of all, is nurturing neighborhood children while their parents are high on drugs & alcohol. Feeding them as needed is simple, but helping their little hearts & minds is draining. And, it's easy to allow myself to feel "battered" by those who consider being a Homemaker as laziness and not helping my husband financially.
Re: the conscious objector issue.Our family isn't practicing COFB, or any other Church. We follow the Word and what God leads us into.
Our son (only child) was given signs prior to 9-11, of what he was to do. He was an oilfield pipe inspector earning $60K+/year. But, one day in Aug. '01, he heard his Grandfather's voice call his name in the Spirit. Same day, my daughter-in-law was cleaning out the car and a picture of our son wearing an Army uniform flashed before her. 9-11-01 was his FIRST DAY of active duty. He didn't "object" to God's calling him.
Since then, he has served as an All American 82nd Airborne paratrooper, in the Presidential Guard of Honor, as Special Forces, and currently in Intelligence. A battle must be won Spiritually before it can manifest victory carnally. And, Christian discernment of Spirits is needed to keep from mistaking "friendlies" for "enemies", and busting down the wrong door.
You hear about the scandals, but they are few when compared to the miracles.
People don't realize how Spiritual serving for Freedom actually is. Our son led prayer before every mission, he carried my tiny prayer purse in his pocket throughout all 3 deployments, and God granted him the expertise to SAVE more American lives than he has had to take the life of enemies.
If the civilian public was aware of the Spirituality of our armed forces, the ACLU would pitch a big fit!
For instance, part of the Special Forces Creed, reads: "...I know that I will be called upon to perform tasks in isolation, far from familiar faces and voices. With the help and guidance of my God, I will conquer my fears and succeed....I am a member of my nation's chosen soldiery. God grant that I may not be found wanting, that I will not fail this Sacred trust."
This is getting long, but I have one more Army thing, I'd like to share, so I'll Part 2 on ya.
contented_lady |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
|
Part 2
I will just add that you express my gratitude to your family members who have, and are serving for the sake of our Freedom. And, I'll close this by simply posting The Special Forces Prayer.
The Special Forces Prayer
Almighty God, who art the Author of Liberty and the Champion of the oppressed, hear our prayer.
We the men of the Special Forces, acknowledge our dependence upon Thee in the preservation of human freedom. Go with us as we seek to defend the defenseless and to free the enslaved.
May we ever remember that our nation, whose motto is "In God We Trust", expects that we shall acquit ourselves with honor, that we may never bring shame upon our Faith, our families or our fellow men.
Grant us wisdom from Thy mind, courage from Thine heart, strength from Thine arm, and protection by Thy hand. It is for Thee that we do battle, and to Thee belongs the victor's crown. For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power and glory, forever.
Amen."
That takes my breath away. I am so grateful that political correctness, has not demanded the halt of prayers such as this!
Whether or not any Christian agrees on the issue of serving, I'm sure they will agree with this prayer being said by our troops.
contented_lady |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.207.26.98
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:09 pm: |
|
Contented Lady
I shall pray God's wisdom and protection for your son. No one in my imediate family is serving at this moment,although my oldest grandson is thinking about joining the military.
This is so unreal. My son is a CWI (Certified Welding Inspector), Level III NDT inspector. Your son and mine should have much in common there.
Later
Glorycloud |
eldersson
New member
Username: eldersson
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 207.134.66.219
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:40 pm: |
|
I'll stay away from the military issue because I don't wanna rock the proverbial boat and instead head back to the marking issue.
Catholic man, have you found anything in your studies that relates to the marking? I know in the old they put people from the tribe out, and sometimes even killed them for their sins. I see that certain branches don't see it the same way.
In your experience with the church, what happened when one was punished or reprimanded by the elders?
(And if you dare, whaddya think about serving in the military? Killing in the name of GOD, or what?) |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.120.223
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 1:49 am: |
|
Eldersson,
I am not sure that I totally understand the question, but I will take a crack at it. Historically, going back to the original church established by the apostles, which was Catholic by the way, there existed a church government subsisting in three offices: Bishop, Elder (a/k/a priest), and Deacon. As the apostles established the church they ordained bishops who, with apostolic permission through the See of Peter, ordained other bishops and priests. Examples of early bishops were St. Timothy and St. Onesimus, mention in the Book of Philemon in the bible. Onesimus took the place of St. Andrew in Turkey after St. Andrew died…which became known as Constantinople in the 4th Century, now know as Istanbul.
At times there arose heresies in the church, such as the Donatist who demanded that those who were baptized by lapsed bishops, priests or deacons had to be ‘Re-baptized’. The early church rejected these decrees from Donatus, Bishop in Carthage, Africa, at the time. The Catholic stance was “ex opere operato” which means that the sacrament, baptism for example, was valid because of the heart and intent of the person receiving the sacramental grace at the time. As a result, decrees of excommunication were made to protect the faithful, thus marking the Donatist as heretics. As time went by several repented and rejoined the Catholic faith while others were later overtaken by Muslims in that land. This is an example of a proper ‘marking’ or ‘excommunication’. Excommunication simply means a withdrawal from Holy Communion (Ordinance Supper to most COFB – bread and wine becomes body and blood of Christ. It does not mean that they cannot come to church.
The COFB stance, that I have seen, is that if you go to the doctor or teach that it is okay to go, then you are marked. In some cases, I seen grown men race to the back of the church to tell someone they were not welcome at church because of their doctrine. This is the danger of a ‘spirit led’ ministry, because at any time anyone can get up and preach his ‘think so’ as my dad used to call it. The beauty of the early church is that very early on there was a hierarchy in the church. Only ordained ministers were allowed to preach at Mass publicly; however the lay faithful were encouraged to preach to their neighbor, but the interpretation of sacred scripture always rested with the bishop in collegial communion with the See of Peter, the bishop of Rome, where lies St. Peter’s tomb under the Vatican altar to this day (aka Pope).
Yes, I saw a lot of hurt feelings and opposing preaching all in the same church service at COFB. I saw pulpit wars and people airing others’ dirty laundry publicly. This is sad. I saw several questionable prophecies, too. The Lord gave me wisdom about 18 years ago soon after I was baptized (at age 18…giving away my age). I fasted for days about understanding prophecy among other things. The Holy Spirit showed me then not to take a prophecy and run with it. Any time I received one, I graciously acknowledged it, but I also put it in the back of my mind and went about my life. If it lined up GREAT, but if not then I assumed it was spoken out of emotion and thus, false. |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.120.223
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 2:10 am: |
|
Part II
Yes, sometimes the COFB elders would mark someone and then this person would be shunned by the congregation. Some of the COFB that I attended weren't so harsh as others. For example, my experience of the Tulsa Eastland church is that they are alot more caring and accepting, although I have heard some really 'OFF' preaching there.
You have to understand, though, that after seeking, asking and knocking throughout church history and really examining the early church and what the church fathers who walked with the apostles said that I cannot go along with the mainstream COFB...especially about refusing medical care. Sad to say, but COFB in no way resembles the 1st Century Church as the 1st Century church was liturgical and organized, which comes from its Jewish background. I have attended a Jewish passover. To this day, the Mass resembles it. That means that very little has changed in the liturgical practices from Jewish to Christian...except for the belief in Jesus as Messiah and a few distinct Christian traditions...something to think about!
I challenge you to find writings from St. Clement (mentioned by Apostle Paul), St. Ignatius (ordained by St. Peter) who also wrote that the church was called 'Catholic', St. Polycarp and St. Irenaues. They walked with and were ordained bishops by the apostles, with the exception of St. Irenaues who was ordained by St. Polycarp. I would rather trust their version of church history than 100 year old COFB writings, wouldn't you?
COFB is a Pentecostal church (one of the very early ones) which broke off from Methodist, which broke off from Church of England, which broke off of the Catholic Church when King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife. The pope refused to grant an annulment, so the king executed several Catholic priests and bishops who stood up with the pope. The king also executed several of his mistresses to try and hide his 'prowling around'. Is this the beginning of the church you want to follow? Of course, it is all about Jesus. I realize that just because someone commits sin, doesn't mean that everyone else is guilty of it. But do you see how fragmented the church has become because of selfish people wanting to take power for themselves instead of leaving it with God? There are now over 30,000 Christian denominations, but Jesus prayed 'Ut Unum Sint' or 'That all may be one, as we are one Father!'. God wills unity, but warned us that there would be splits. There was just one church, the Catholic Church, up until the 16th century. Now of course in the 11th century there was a schism with our Orthodox east brethren, but not a FORMAL split.
I apologize for getting onto church history, but how can people put their child's life on the line in a belief system without first checking it out? To me if you are going to stake your child's life or even your own soul in a belief, then wouldn't you want to know all there is about it? Do you buy the first car or house you see without proper inspection? |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.120.223
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 2:30 am: |
|
Part III
For me, when my wife and I decided to leave COFB I didn't want to go to just any other church. We assembled with Pentecostal Foursquare for a few months after I traced COFB to Pentecostalism through Followers of Christ. There are alot more similarities than you think. However, Pentecostal churches have all changes in 100+ years with varying doctrines most of which do NOT deny medical care but do very much believe in faith healing. Catholics also believe in faith healing, but not without medical intervention.
We did not want to run to another church like that again. So I really keep seeking God and studying and decided that I wanted to assemble with the church established by the apostles via straight line. I didn't care what church that was or its name, necessarily. I put all my faith in God to lead me correctly.
I did NOT want to become a Catholic, at first, but I had to accept truth. Truth is truth no matter how weird or strange it may be. Jesus said to be willing to leave father, mother, brothers and sisters for the sake of the kingdom or we are not worthy of him. Truth is far more important. Amazingly I still have a good relation with my family and in-laws who still attend COFB. I really expected more of a shunning, but my parents always stood against the 'shunning'. Wow! Ironically, I am watching a Catholic program on TV. As I was typing about shunning just now, the priest spoke almost the same exact words! Now that's the Holy Spirit at work. He said that we should not shun family just because we disagree with them. WOW!!
Anyway, for me it was either find the truth or just don't go to church any more. Unfortunately there are too many out there who choose to not go to church. We are supposed to be a community (which comes from the word communion) of believers and according to 10th Chapter of Hebrews, we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. I suppose there are good people out there who do pray and don't go to church because they are lost, but most that I hear say "I can believe in God, make heaven and never go to church." I think that is sad that they do not want to share God's goodness with others by assembling with a church. I can relate to having that LOST feeling of just not belonging any more because of seeing through the horrible teachings from the pulpit.
There are some REALLY good people still caught up in COFB. I pray every day that they will come to Jesus and see the light without fear. Jesus isn't so willing to reject as man is.
God bless!
Jonathan |
eldersson
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Username: eldersson
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 207.134.66.219
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 1:22 pm: |
|
Catholic man, I want you to know that I truly appreciate the research and history you have shared with me. Being brought up this way from birth, I never really questioned anything about the history of the church until recently, and look where it got me.
My fear now is this: whenever I have attended a church, as soon as the people start using what I call “church speak” (God’s will, God bless, the scripture quoting, just the fakey talk) I immediately feel like I did in dads church. Like everyone has put on their Sunday best and included their act. I know it’s my perception, and I’m sure they’re good people, but I feel tainted from my past. I feel as though all they want to do is judge me. In my mind, basic questions about how I am doing flash back to the grilling I received every Sunday and Wednesday.
How is the wife? Becomes a chair in a dark room with a huge light in my face. You know what I mean?
I’m hoping that by understanding where I came from, I can be more open to where I should be going. On that note, where would I find the books you talk about? Online? In the bookstore? |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.167
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 5:10 pm: |
|
I understand, my family goes back a couple of generations into the COFB; two of my sisters married elder's sons. Regarding 'church talk': I am a no non-sense, take it or leave it, kind of a guy. I am far more interested in truth than some conjured up emotion. Sacred scriptures says that you will know the truth and that it will set you free. There are lots of books and even information on the Web about the early church. A good place to start is http://www.catholic.com - Catholic Answers website to answer some of the basic questions. However, the church history can be found all over the web.
I like to keep up with current events, too, so I usually visit http://www.zenit.org/english for church news articles. It may give you some insight about how the church is just as active today as it was when established by Jesus and the apostles. Also, see http://www.patriarchate.org/ about our Othodox brethren.
Don't be affraid of reading what the Protestants say, too (such as the Field of Blood that Baptist purport), but don't stop there...read, read, read. You will amazed, especially when focusing on just the early church...first 3-4 centuries. Follow this link for a real 'eye opener':
http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/chron.html
I recommend http://www.newadvent.org for good encyclopedic reading, particularly http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm
which talks about St. Ignatuis. Here is another link about him: http://faithofthefathersearlychurchfathers.blogspot.com/2005/08/saint-ignatius-of-antioch.html and you can actually read what he wrote about the church, even calling it by the 'Catholic' name.
Read his own words at http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/246/Letter_of_Ignatius_of_Antioch_to_the_Smyrnaeans.html?PHPSESSID=2690703c308fc003e3392e2c584fd4f1 and look particularly at Chapter VIII - Let nothing be done without the bishop.
This BARELY even scratches the surface of the information that I found.
Yep, don't be led astray by God babel; take God up on his word to ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be open. The truth is the only thing, brother, that can truly set you free. Don't just take my word for it, look for it yourself. A church that says not to seek or research must have a fear of what you will find. The Catholic Church says go ahead...please read all you can about the early church and about us and see if we don't line up. The Catholic Church wants its members educated. Unfortunately there are some Catholics who do not live their faith or know it.
TRUTH, TRUTH, TRUTH...that will set you free. It's not about an emotion; It is about the truth. The truth will generate the correct emotion at the correct time.
I wish you the best on your search and on your journey. If you would like to email me personally, then please feel free to do so at jonathan.cron@mmcoop.com or jonathancron@centurytel.net. |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.167
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Other food for thought:
The simple term 'Christmas' is a conjunction of the words 'Christs Mass', which indicates the Christmas celebration on December 24th (known as midnight mass) and December 25th. I always thought that it was sad that most COFB would close church when Christmas day fell on a Sunday. To me that should be all the more reason to go to church to acknowledge Christ, especially on his feast day.
Just a thought!
Jonathan |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.167
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 5:38 pm: |
|
Here's a good link from our sister church, the Eastern Orthodox.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8074.asp
This has some of the actual writings for you to read.
Jonathan |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 216.186.209.230
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:59 am: |
|
Eldersson
If you will go to www.e-sword.net you will find a much better source of learning the truth.....
Catholic Man, Joining the Catholic Church is not the answer to the pain and suffering that women and children are enduring in the COFB. You need to lighten up on your Catholic preaching. I let my husband read this discussion sight and the first thing he said was “Catholic man" hasn't changed at all; he is still trying to convince people that his way is the only way. This is the nature of the leaders in the COFB.
No one in this world knows all there is to know about God; however, we still have the freedom of choice. And we have a great deal of means to acquire knowledge now, however, we still need to seek wisdom from God and the bible is still the true source, not the traditions of man. The best place to learn about Catholicism is from a non catholic website......... and the library.
Sorry Catholic Man but this website was not started to push the Catholic Church and I resent what you are doing here as this discussion was started to help people get away from this type brow beating. The people that have participated here need love compassion, direction and above all, assurance that leaving the COFB is the right thing for them to do. I understand that you are really excited about your new found church and that is great for you. I believe there are Christians in all denominations.
Thank You,
Glorycloud |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 3:21 am: |
|
There is absolutely no 'brow beating' going on here. There have been questions raised. Absolutely leaving the COFB is a good thing to get away from the false doctrines. Yes, there are Christians in each denomination. I never said any different. The whole point is that someone on this blog asked about the history of the church, which is something that I spent ALOT of time researching.
I have to disagree with you that to learn about Catholicism that people should visit NON-Catholic website. That's an insane remark! The best place to learn it is from them. That would be like saying if you want to learn about cooking then go to a non-cooking website.
All I am suggesting is to let the early church fathers speak for themselves. All I am saying is that the church has existed for 2000 years. All some people see is the first 100 years, then all of a sudden they talk about the last 100-300 years with confidence. Where was the church in between that time? That's all I am saying.
There is no brow beating, but I'm sorry that you don't like someone telling the truth about church history. Far from COFB viewpoint, the Catholic Church doesn't discriminate against other Christians. The Catholic viewpoint is that we are all Christians trying to get to heaven and that we are simply separated brethren. It is too bad that we cannot all be in unity with love.
I will tell you that my younger sister suffered miserably because of COFB teachings. Although she still endures certain pain and suffering, she did her own research coupled with prayer. After becoming a Catholic along with her four children she is a changed person. Her kids, teenagers, always comment to her about how glad they are that the priest doesn't yell from the pulpit or act judgmental. This has been very good for those boys. Instead of fearing that God will strike them down, they feel like God really loves them, which is true.
You are correct that nobody can ever know everything there is about God. |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 3:44 am: |
|
One last thing...my wife and I lost a still born little girl due to COFB teaching that we believed at the time. Like I said above, how can someone stake their lives or their souls in something without first questioning it or checking it out personally.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if someone becomes Catholic or not just so long as they have the eyes to see how wrong COFB is. Case and point, one of my nieces married a Baptist preachers son. She became a Baptist. I am very happy for her. My wife and I said numerous times how happy we were for her that she did not stay with COFB. At least she is seeking God in his truth and I believe that anyone trying to live their lives the best they can will be in heaven no matter to what church they belong. In fact, I cannot accept the COFB version that if you do not belong to COFB that you are bound for Hell. Please do not confuse Catholicism with the COFB narrow-mindedness. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that God only judges according to the light you are given. Unlike COFB, this means the little starving kids in Africa who have never heard of Jesus that they have as good of a chance of making it than anyone even if they never heard the gospel preached. God isn't looking to strike people down...that would be the other guy!
It is really simple: God is love! I have learned. That's a slap in the face to my little daughter to say that I haven't learned. I am not saying that Catholicism is the only way, but simply that it is the original church. You owe me an apology for that remark. My daughter would most likely be alive had we not went with COFB teaching. I have learned THE HARD WAY!!
I'll expect your apology on your next post.
Thanks. |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
|
Catholic_man, I saw your personal email address listed in a previous post. Maybe if you want to explain to Eldersson, the COFB falling away from the Catholic Church, you could invite him to email you apart from the board, where you can get in depth, one-on-one.
Talking about only one church's view doesn't ease the pain, fear and feeling of isolation.
I am truly sorry about your loss of a daughter. But, I agree with Glorycloud. Obsessing with one particular Church, doesn't help others.
As for "I'll expect your apology on your next post.", I first look to myself to see if I have erred, if I don't believe I have, I forgive and turn the other cheek, respecting the other person's point of view. I don't want my personal feelings to stand in the way of peace, or be a hinderance to others.
contented_lady |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 3:41 pm: |
|
Catholic_man, I have observed for awhile all of your post. You are very angry with the church, and it is apparent, however, please do not use this as a launch pad to verbally attack the church of the firstborn. I am sorry for your loss. You have tried very hard to shed light into the catholic church, and really from what I can tell, you are not getting anywhere. Forgive me, but if you really have had anything to do with The General Assembly and church of the Firstborn than you know why you are not receiving a warm welcome. I understand that you feel betrayed by people who told you that all you have to do is live by faith and you will never suffer anything, I know that this is the way they try to teach it, but, this church has generation upon generation, upon generation that has lost loved ones to death. That is their faith, their choice. They live it this way, not because there is no other way to live, but this way fits them best, I can not say that I do not doctor, never would, or never have, because I have, and probably will, do you know why, I do not live the faith to the standard of the brethren, that my friend, is impossible. I live the faith for myself. I can not fear "What will the brethren think if I go to the doctor" it does not matter, if going to the doctor is wrong, then God is my only judge, if it is not wrong, i do not want to stand before God and say, "I did nothing because I was affraid of the brethren". I will pray for you that you can get through this. Do not let the devil win because you have hatred toward how the church has made you feel. Don't look back, you have left the church of the Firstborn for reason's that you have. Pray that the Lord will allow you to move past that, if you cannot and you do not forgive them, how much more do expect your Father to forgive you of your sins, whatever they may be. |
eldersson
New member
Username: eldersson
Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 207.134.66.219
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 6:33 pm: |
|
slicky, glory, and contented:
This is a DISCUSSION board. Meaning we discuss things. I asked the questions, he answered them. Would you rather we only address your problems and concerns? Is this not a public forum?
And slicky: I came here to find a launch pad to verbally attack the COFB. This is all info about CULTS! Not a good thing, remember? Mind control, fear the whole deal....you are doing to Catholic man what the cofb has done for years. He presented a theory contradictory to yours, and immediately it is wrong, and he needs to look in his heart, and he's mad at the church.
Plus, you don't show much compassion as to his daughter's situation. But then again, what do i expect from a cult member? |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 8:13 pm: |
|
Glorycloud, I downloaded the E-Sword Bible. Thank you for mentioning the site! I use Dake's Annotated King James because I gain so much from the original Greek & Hebrew lineage. This makes it very simple to compare passages.
Eldersson I apologize if my suggesting you & Catholic_man correspond in private, offended either of you. I didn't mention it out of any need or desire to "verbally attack". I mentioned it for your convenience, and so he could get more in depth in answering you.
I didn't come here to "verbally attack" the GA&COFB or anyone else. I came here, to try understanding the current changes & how to deal with them. It's painful to me, but I don't have the BITTERNESS you appear to have. I choose to acknowledge the Good that I see in everything rather than become hateful over the bad.
contented_lady |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 11:51 pm: |
|
Keep in mind that I still have LOTS of relatives and close kin still in the COFB. I still love them very much and they still love me. That is not the question that I am raising. The question that I am raising is how can someone follow the teachings of a church without seeking to either validate or dispell it through the help of the Holy Spirit, through study, through understanding of historical significance?
True, I may still harbor some resentment for the teachings, but it is NOT aimed at any specific brother or sister in COFB. I still have good friends who attend it. My beef is not with anyone personally but with its systems of false doctrines that are damaging to the health of little babies and children. I personally know several of them (good friends) who are in prison because their children died. One couple is in prison in California, the other is serving, last I heard, LOTS of community service on probation out in Indiana. My brother-in-law is a Nation and an elder in Indiana. I still love my family very much.
I have to stand for the truth, though. I cannot and will not go along with something where lives CAN be saved but goes neglected. I realize that we are all going to die sometime...believe me, I still hear it from my mom. She always tells me the 'goings on' in the COFB trying to 'win' me back. We have made several discussions about religious convictions, but I will tell you one thing...she is my mother and I deeply respect her and her faith even if I do not agree with her. God has given me a blessing in that my mother also respects me. I was always the weird kid at home who prayed all of the time. She reminds me, but I let her know that it hasn't changed.
No, I am not out to attack the PEOPLE of COFB; I just want to point out how far off from the historical church it has become.
God Bless EVERYONE!
P.S. Eldersson, yes, this is a free country and we are on a public forum. I will continue to monitor and post here as time goes by. However, due to the holidays and buckling down harder for my Master's degree this next semester I will probably not post as much for that reason. I do cordially invite you to respond to me in private. To everyone else, sorry, I won't go away. TRUTH means too much. |
mroggeman
New member
Username: mroggeman
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 207.200.116.135
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:57 am: |
|
Has anyone been involved with the group near grand Junction in Colorado. I remember reading articles over the years on several people who died there as a result of having no medical treatment. Is this group part of the original. |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 9:14 am: |
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Catholic_man, by my use of "bitterness", I was referring to eldersson's saying "I came here to find a launch pad to verbally attack the COFB." You seem to share my feelings of being upset and sometimes angry at the policies, but compassionate toward the people. There's a fine line between being critical of the Church and being agitated toward the people.
It's certainly EXASPERATING, when you're attempting to point out a Scripture, as basis of a wrong being done and the person you're talking to refuses to read the Word because the Church has taught something different. It makes you want to wake the person up from their "hypnotism".
I still can hardly listen to secular music. Not "dirty" languaged or anything nasty, but simply "clean" music, that doesn't have Christian words. I enjoy Bach & Beethoven, etc. And, I really like some Judy Collins. But, I feel guilty & like I've done something wrong, when I listen. As soon as I feel happy and "free", the guilt sets in.
Catholic_man I hope you do quite well with your Master's. And, I'd sure hate to lose your imput on this board, so hope you'll find some time for it.
mroggeman Several of the Vici congregation travel to Grand Junction a lot. And, some of the Grand Junction folks have moved down here I believe. Members of the Vici Church have a cabin near there, if I remember correctly. My Mom stayed there a few times with one of my cousins.
contented_lady |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:31 pm: |
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Eldersson,
Awwwwww. I will pray for you and your disillusion in not understanding that all Churches push the envelope on being a cult. As long as the church remains on earth, there will be liars, haters, abusers, hypocrites. Read your newspaper headlines, it is in the catholic church, methodist, baptist,pentacostal(sp)churches, it is in our schools, in our preachers offices, priests playing with little children in areas they should not, and then swear them to secrecy. It is NOT, only in the Church of the firstborn, and until you know what my real name is and the things that I have suffered from the church, do not be so ignorant to tell me that I am not compassionate toward catholic man losing a child you arogant know it all. Verbal assault, you pewny little man, goes nowhere with me. You want to attack me here in this forum and tell me freedom of speech, here it is. You are unlearned. If you are not going to learn from this church , then find one to learn from. You will be sorely dissapointed when your rose color glasses fall from yours eyes and the scales fall from your eyes and you see through the eyes of Christ, that all churches fall short. If everyone who has ever been hurt by the church, or marked, or kicked out because they used doctors, if they came together because they knew the errors of the church, the church could not stop them. When it is of God no man can stop it. Nothing ever got done by talking about it. I have been used, lied to, taken for granted, I watched a grandfather die, my cousin lost their 16 month old to type 1 diabetes, i saw a cousin suffer greatly after having a child at home, only to be later "flighted" to a hospital. I have spent time being agry over the fact that if they would have only used doctors, you know what, that is not my problem. I admire some of those who truly, truly, trust in God, not because they fear the brethren, but because they know catching a ride out of this joint (world)is better than staying behind. Come on "an elder's son" I wait for your response. |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 2:41 pm: |
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Okay Silky. I'm afraid you fell right to where eldersson hoped you would.
The only person on this board he wants to correspond with is Catholic_man. That's fine. That's a choice he can make. We can be grateful that Jonathan (Catholic_man) isn't hateful & bitter.
Eldersson has attacked every woman posting here. For my part, it was "(And if you dare, whaddya think about serving in the military? Killing in the name of GOD, or what?)" It would have been a great opportunity for me to argue with him. EDUCATE him on the difference between being a LIBERATOR and a killer. My son is in intelligence. (DUH AND DOUBLE-DUH!) He's SAVED U.S. soldiers from being ambushed, CAUGHT KILLERS, and kept innocent Iraqis & Afghanis from being arrested. In Afghanistan, men would literally bring their wives and children to his group, in the middle of the night, to take care of and keep from the clutches of Taliban. It's VERY NAIVE, if not ignorant, to believe today's armed forces are nothing but "killers". I DON'T KNOW that my son has had to kill ANYONE. But, I DO KNOW he's still getting awards & medals for SAVING lives and HUMANITARIAN work from his first tour in Kandahar, Afghanistan, his tour in Fallujah, and in Bahgdad, Iraq.
A gentleman might have decently asked ME how I felt about my only "child" serving.
My point being, is that Jesus is not the author of confusion, indignation, or even offense. This guy's hatefulness & bitterness, condemning & attacking spirit, comes from elsewhere. And, his line aimed at you, "Plus, you don't show much compassion as to his daughter's situation. But then again, what do i expect from a cult member?" sounds like a very catty woman's comment. Plain snippy.
It takes GUTS to stay in, while aware of the falsehoods, and attempt to make a difference. KUDDOS & GOOD LUCK!
I don't care to hear about the Catholic Church, but if Jonathan and the Catholic Church can help him overcome those things, that's great. I can scan through & see what Jonathan says that is applicable to my needs. I'm just thankful Jonathan isn't arrogant and doesn't lash out at people. I hope he can help eldersson.
We need to remember Romans 14:19. We should try to live at peace and help each other have a strong faith.
Let's just try to improve on ourselves, so we can set a good example for other Christians and for non-Christians.
Let's try not to be provoked into anger by someone who clearly doesn't know us or even care. I get mad, too. But, self-absorbed people only see things narrowly, and a battle with one, can't be won.
contented_lady |
catholic_man
New member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.167
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 5:24 pm: |
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I'm not sure who anyone on this post really is. I really do not care to know. Like the Apostle Paul said, "I do not care to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." I have not been shy in putting my actual name out on this post, because as someone said I do not fear man.
So with all of the heat in this chatroom, I would like to invite each one to spend a moment in reflection, silent meditation in God. After such a reflection, if you are not offended by it, then please imagine that I am making the sign of the cross toward you...a peaceful gesture. Imagine that God is wrapping this warm blanket around you.
Now hopefully that everyone can relax let's look at Christian basics, which hopefully we ALL can agree upon. First, I am not your judge. I understand feelings of frustration such as the vast misunderstanding that some have had of me in these posts and my remark back to glorycloud. It is really frustrating when all you have is 'pen and ink' to communicate, because people misunderstand each other or get really riled up.
Basic Christianity 101:
The GREAT commandment is listed in St. John 13:34 "That ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
The TWO GREAT commandments are:
St. Luke 10:27 "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy NEIGHBOR as thyself."
The Ten Commandments (Exodus, chapter 20):
1. No other gods
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Keep the Lord's day holy
4. Honor father and mother
5. Do not kill
6. Do not commit adultery
7. Do not steal
8. Do not bear false witness
9. Do not covet neighbor's wife
10.Do not covet neighbor's goods
ALL of these commandments are related. The first three are about loving God. The last seven are about loving neighbor. Thus, this is the summary into the two great commandments. The greatest commandment IS LOVE! Please reference 1 Corinthians 13:13
God bless America! I do appreciate the protection that our military personnel provide. I worked on contract with the federal government for a while traveling around with TSA and Homeland Security helping setup computer training infrastructure. I realize the commitment they make to protect the innocent, which is the goal. I do not think the goal is to KILL the innocent...although such isolated incidents are sad, especially if there was mortal intent.
Merry Christmas! |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 5:33 pm: |
|
contented-lady,
THANK YOU!!! You are right and after I posted, I became angry with myself because I came here to talk with other people, not be mean or hateful, and I did fall right into the "snare"that was left for me. I have drawn my mothers attention to this website, she too is COTFB, and after I told her about my posting to eldersson, she let me know that I was in the wrong. You do not trade evil for evil, bad for bad, you do however be kind to those who despitefuly use you reaping coals of fire on their head. I was immature in my posting, and I did not use wisdom. I should have let it go. There is a lot of hurt that those here have suffered from the church, and it is hurt that goes way...........back, and I had no rite in responding in that manner. I still would like to be apart of this forum, i appreciate your kindness in dealing with me, it was very immature what I did, to you I am sorry, to God I am sorry, and to eldersson I apologize. I will refrain from using this as a launch pad. I am against verbal attacks and I launched one myself, proving the hypocritical state of a self-proclaiming Christian, myself. I will be off for the weekend, I hope to back on here on monday, good day and good weekend to all. I will say this too, God bless your son for the sacrifice he has made. My prayes go out and up for him. |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 9:29 pm: |
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Silky & Catholic_man, I sure appreciate your postings today. Jonathan for his apparent understanding of my loss of patience, and the gentle reminder of the value of LOVE--not simply in word or deed, but Heartfelt "Agape" as the original Greek term, signifies.
I fall short in patience. My virtue remains fairly in tact until I see others being inflicted. I needed the reminder that meekness, humility, self-denial, and love, make for peace. We can't edify each other, while quarreling and contending.
My only excuse for striking back, is of recent pain. Mostly for my son.
Last month, my sister died. MY GA&COFB cousin had sent "John", my sister's notarized will and funeral instructions for him to carry out, about a year ago.
My husband & I were just 10 miles away. Our son was only a few hours away. But, NO ONE told us. She passed over early on Sunday. Our son could have been here by noon. On Monday, my Daughter-in-law brought our Grandson to stay with us for a week and my son went into a locked down school.
My husband found out at work DURING her funeral. Our son found out the following evening. We didn't get to say goodbye to her body at the funeral home or anything. I had to tell our Grandson. She was called his "Little Grandma", having no children of her own & she called our son, her Grandson.
Her belongings were divided up to we don't know who. Her funeral was almost opposite of everything she'd wanted. And "they" made our son FAIL TO KEEP HIS WORD to her.
Family anger, bitterness and lack of consideration--much less consideration for the Law, has taken a toll on me. We have appropriated forgiveness. YET AGAIN. But, it has been difficult.
Tomorrow, we are taking Christmas to John's family. It's his first Christmas with his wife and children in 4 years, thanks to this terrible war, and his conviction to make a difference in it.
Suffering is a gift that keeps on giving. I'm weary of lack of consideration of feelings. But, I was wrong in using the voice of exasperation when arguing broke out. I regret that. I behaved poorly in attempting to stop it.
I am so glad that God loves me, as I am, and is there to help me improve. I fall short sometimes, but my heart is genuine, so I continue trying to set an example and improve.
My Grandparents were marked & set aside for not following what they considered "the new ways". My Father chose to dust his feet of COFB. But, ya know...I choose to not partake of any Church because thanks to my Dad, I was taught well. I choose to follow his Scriptural teachings and those of my Father-in-law. If the Church was as it was when they were younger, I would be there, and not be isolated.
I'll get passed my current heartache and live to be hurt again and forgive again. WATCH ME! God will grant me the endurance.
I will try to return to the board in a few days, with a refreshed outlook and be stronger at overlooking uncalled for remarks and such. I hope to bring something good & of use to someone here.
Silky, I'm glad you have your Mother. She sounds like a wise woman and a good friend for you as well. Glean from her Wisdom and enjoy her while you have her.
I deeply appreciate your prayers.
Thank you Jonathan & Silky.
contented_lady |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 9:57 pm: |
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I ran across this note I'd taken in study & felt the need to share it.
"The better we know our own hearts and ways, the less shall we despise others, and the more be disposed to help them under infirmities and afflictions."
contented_lady |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.157.182
| | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 1:36 am: |
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Catholic Man
I have been in the process of moving this week so in a few days when life is slower.... perhaps after Christmas, I will rewrite my previous post in a way that it will be clear what I am trying convey to you. I will take the time to choose my words more carefully.
I can’t imagine how great the burden of guilt you must be carrying, what with the knowledge that your baby girl might have lived had there been medical help with her birth.
That would eat at me every hour of every day for the rest of my life, even with the blessed hope that I would see her in heaven one day. I’m quite sure you have changed in that you will seek medical help in the future, therefore, I will apologize to you in this regard (regarding my comment that “you hadn’t changed”). I do believe your desire to seek the truth is genuine. As I stated at the beginning of this post, I am extremely busy with moving and Christmas, so it may be after the holidays before I get back to you but I’ll try to redeem myself soon…
Contented_Lady, glad you like esword! So sorry about your sister. I'm {hugging} you.
God Bless
Glorycloud |
4thwatch
New member
Username: 4thwatch
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.2.169.194
| | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Personally, I just wouldn't lose any sleep over what "man's" opinion of me is.
But, "run away and hide"??? I don't think so.
Go "Church Bashing"? Nope.
Go "Brethren Bashing"? Nope.
Go "seek sympathizers"? Nope.(each one carrying a vial of gasoline trying to find something to pour it on?)
What did all that accomplish??? Be honest.
Nope. That just is not "the right thing to do".
Band together and visit with one another for strength and support, yes, by all means! And pray for one another that ye may be healed.
And may The Lord make his face to shine upon you...(favor you) In Jesus Name. Amen |
4thwatch
New member
Username: 4thwatch
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.2.169.194
| | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 11:19 pm: |
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If some of you who are posting here have made the judgement call that this church is indeed a "Cult" in the truest sense of the term...what do you propose to do about it?
And you say that you are or were a member of this church, Where does the accountability lie for not continuing to serve in this church in order to be better able to "UN-Cult" it from it's false teachings so called? What or who is holding you back from presenting the TRUTH of the matter in the Spirit of Meekness to the Congregation whom you believe are being deceived. If you believe that to be True, Are not those who are true "Salt and Light" Spiritually obligated to present the Truth to a lost and dying people? |
catholic_man
Junior Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.119.100
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 12:21 am: |
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4hwatch
I have not been shy in exposing truth to anyone on this Web blog including family or friends in person. I am no saint, but I could not stand to see another preventable death due to false understandings of scriptures.
My personal opinion is that remaining in it to CHANGE it is not the right move. From my experience, there are several who have tried only to be disappointed that their children become more deeply involved in its doctrines that their grandparents would roll in their graves.
Therefore, for me, the best cure is to come out of it. My sister-in-law (who still attend COFB in Colorado) told my wife just the other day how that the COFB populous is dwindling because people are tired of the false, dictatorship-style teaching...not that everyone is like that. There are alot of good people who are honest and hard working that are still caught up in it.
The best thing that could happen is for people to wake up and leave it. The dwindling numbers would be punishment enough for its doctrinal indiscretions. The problem is its system, not necessarily the people. Of course, its people who can ruin a church.
We have to trust Jesus and be not affraid. Sure, I encountered fear when I first left from all of the teaching from a child that leaving would be 'blasphemy of the Holy Ghost'. That is far from the correct interpretation. 'Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit', it turns out, is simply to deny the repentence and forgiveness that Christ offers.
Love,
Jonathan
aka
catholic_man
PS Looks like I found time to chime in after all. |
catholic_man
Junior Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.119.100
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 12:39 am: |
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4thwatch,
No offense, but do you have any experience with the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn? Without that background, there would be alot of misunderstanding you would have from never being a part of it. Like I say, there are some really good members and leadership in certain areas, such as Tulsa Eastland assembly (one of the elders is a relative). One of the deceased preachers there was a very good highly thought of man...Dr. Clifford Hutton...my mom's first cousin. He was Dr. because of his PhD in business. He taught at Tulsa University for years as a professor of accounting and Dean of the College of Business. Some of the people caught up in it aren't dummies. However, there are alot who teach against college education.
That's the problem. From assembly to assembly the message of Christ is NOT the same. Numerous times I heard conflicting messages, but there are these underlying currents that are dangerous, especially in people who choose to doctor...a certain looking down their nose at you.
If you are experienced in COFB, please expound. Otherwise, you probably have no idea of the culture. I would rather leave and side with right than to stick around expecting that I can change an already flawed system. Sorry...but I am not that cocky to think that way. The only thing within my ability is to leave it and be example causing people to question me and COFB.
My sister and her four children left COFB not too long after due to, first of all, God and then my challenge to her to trace the early church AND her doctrines.
Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum!
Jonathan |
4thwatch
New member
Username: 4thwatch
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 68.241.213.37
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
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Catholic_man,
To answer your inquiry as to my credentials concerning “The General Assembly and the Church of the Firstborn” Heb. 12:23 (KJV).
Yes, I do have first person acquaintance with this church. I am quite familiar, personally, with the doctrinal issues and the variations on understanding from assembly to assembly. I am personally acquainted with some (a few) of the “hardliners” as well as some of the “softliners” and from the differing geographical locations of the church having to do with the some of the “generational influence” and “mishandling” of The Word Of God. I firmly believe that some of this arises out of ignorance. I have nothing against higher education of the secular sort. But, Being educated in The Word Of God, and in the “Deeper Things of God” is without a doubt the highest level of education a person can attain to in this life. And it is a “life giving” education in and of itself. For Jesus said “ My people perish for lack of knowledge”……..He addressed that to His People….He is talking to us. We are instructed by Jesus himself to “Take my yoke upon you and learn of me”………Now, THAT is education to the enth degree! “But with all thy getting, Get thee understanding”. THAT understanding comes from the The Holy Ghost. Not from the brethren and not from the pope.
…“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
For He will lead you into all truth…(KJV).
Have Faith in God. And God Alone………………
Get the Brethren off the Throne.
Get the pope off the Throne.
That throne belongs to God.
Give your heart to Jesus. That is the “Throne” he is looking for in this earthly tabernacle.
That is HIS earthly abode. (Don’t read that as an old worn out cliché’, but rather receive it into your spirit).
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (KJV) |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.157.106
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 1:46 pm: |
|
4thwatch
AMEN!!
Glorycloud |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 10:20 am: |
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PART ONE: 4thwatch, , your posts seem very harsh and pushy. You're trying to tell us what to do and what is right for us as individuals. You don't seem to have compassion or understanding of where we came from or why we are here.
i.e. Elderson was "marked & set aside". Therefore he has NO VOICE in the GA&COFB. HE NO LONGER EXISTS in their eyes. He is in an extremely deep PAIN of Spirit. His hands are tied. He cannot right the wrongs. He cannot so much as express himself to those who were previously his entire world of existence. The foundation of everything he is and knows, has puked him out. He needs help healing, and dealing with life after the COFB. He has reached out to Catholic_man, and the C-man has been there for him.
Catholic_man is following where he believes he belongs. He's following where he feels led to go.
Glorycloud married in, but is non-practicing. She's trying to discover what this church is actually all about.
Silkywoowoo, remains in, and struggles for the strength to confront the false teachings with Scripture. She teeters on the edge of being "marked", every time she stands up for Truth, for Freedom of Choice--the very freedom that allows us to follow where the Holy Spirit would lead us.
My Grandparents were "marked & set aside" for doing the exact same thing Silky is doing. Though not one stood against them regarding their Faith, personal honor, or anything else. They simply pointed out that some places in the "New Doctrine" couldn't be substantiated Biblically.
My Father "dusted his feet". I chose to honor him, and not associate with the followers. I once had 5 sisters, 2 brothers, 11 Aunts & Uncles, 26 nieces & nephews, numerous cousins, and now, I have no family other than my in-laws, my husband & son & his family. (My Father & Mother have since passed away.)
My Father-in-law was "marked" because ONE person stood against him, without any in accomplice or any substantiation of basis.
The GA&COFB, from my point of view, WAS a GENUINE Bible fundamentalist Church, that BECAME a cult, when PEOPLE began creating doctrine, instead of using the Bible as doctrine.
The "cult" status is confirmed by the demand for uncompromised loyalty to "the New Ways", and to the Elders. If you express another point of view, even with Scripture to give credence for it, you are subject to "marking & setting aside". No questioning of the leadership is allowed. There's no room for self-conviction or motivation of Spirit. A sort of dictatorship prevails.
I believe all of us here, are well versed Scripturally, and I, for one, was raised to adhere only to the King James version--though I use a Dake Annotated Reference in order to compare original Greek & Hebrew words.
So, of course I stand in agreement with you Scripturally.
CONTINUED... |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
|
PART TWO
But, before you tell us what's right for us to do,
( i.e. "But, "run away and hide"??? I don't think so.
Go "Church Bashing"? Nope.
Go "Brethren Bashing"? Nope.
Go "seek sympathizers"? Nope.(each one carrying a vial of gasoline trying to find something to pour it on?)
What did all that accomplish??? Be honest.
Nope. That just is not "the right thing to do". ")
You need to consider WHO you are talking to, WHAT their losses are. WHAT their needs are. WHAT they have already accomplished. And, speaking only for myself. I WON'T DO WHAT ANYONE TELLS ME IS RIGHT FOR ME, EXCEPT THE LORD MY GOD!
We are all human beings in various stages of progression. The ONE thing we all have in common is the need for GENTLE KINDNESS, and RESPECT of our following OUR OWN convictions.
contented_lady |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 2:18 pm: |
|
Any church outside the COTFB that claims to be going to heaven (according to COTFB) falls under Matthew 7:21-23
}Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
We are taught from a young age, or even those who come out of the "World" that the first part of that goes to the worldly churches and the second half of that goes to COTFB. This did not make any sense that we are the only ones going to heaven, we are the only ones that have it right, There are things according to scripture that have to be done in order to obtain salvation, and when I run across these "Worldly churches" and I have found that they have done everything according to scripture to obtain heaven and salvation, I have also found that these people are living the faith better than some of my brethren. And they have never heard of the COTFB WOW!!!! No WAY!!! YES!!
How many of us have caused someone to question their salvation because they were not part of COTFB, how many of us have lead people to the waters edge because we were taught unless they are baptized by COTFB, they are not going to heaven even after they have been baptized through baptist, methodist, catholic church, we are taught and teach, if you are not one of us, then we forbid you, we withdraw the hand of fellowship, we will not greet you, wash your feet, or help you when you are down, because you are a spot on the garment of COTFB until you get it 100%. COTFB for the most part teaches you have to live the faith and prove to us that you can before you can be baptized. HELLO!!!! that is not what Jesus taught.There are so many leaving instead of speakin up; can we blame them, no, we become outcast, our kids become outcast, our families will not "have to do" with us. God help me to be a light to the next generation in this church, save us oh God!!! "Hi, my name is Slickywoowoo, I'm a member of the General Assembly & Church of the Firstborn, and I love you all here without conditions". What do I do now. I wish not to leave, I wish to be a light to a dying idea of what Jesus was here to set up, and no I am not refering to just the GA/COTFB. Contended_lady, I too read out of the Dake annotated refrence bible, KJV, and have been for about the last 4 years, some things i do not agree with in is interpretation, but i would say 92% of it has opened my eyes into deeper studies. By for now. |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 2:19 pm: |
|
Any church outside the COTFB that claims to be going to heaven (according to COTFB) falls under Matthew 7:21-23
}Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
We are taught from a young age, or even those who come out of the "World" that the first part of that goes to the worldly churches and the second half of that goes to COTFB. This did not make any sense that we are the only ones going to heaven, we are the only ones that have it right, There are things according to scripture that have to be done in order to obtain salvation, and when I run across these "Worldly churches" and I have found that they have done everything according to scripture to obtain heaven and salvation, I have also found that these people are living the faith better than some of my brethren. And they have never heard of the COTFB WOW!!!! No WAY!!! YES!!
How many of us have caused someone to question their salvation because they were not part of COTFB, how many of us have lead people to the waters edge because we were taught unless they are baptized by COTFB, they are not going to heaven even after they have been baptized through baptist, methodist, catholic church, we are taught and teach, if you are not one of us, then we forbid you, we withdraw the hand of fellowship, we will not greet you, wash your feet, or help you when you are down, because you are a spot on the garment of COTFB until you get it 100%. COTFB for the most part teaches you have to live the faith and prove to us that you can before you can be baptized. HELLO!!!! that is not what Jesus taught.There are so many leaving instead of speakin up; can we blame them, no, we become outcast, our kids become outcast, our families will not "have to do" with us. God help me to be a light to the next generation in this church, save us oh God!!! "Hi, my name is Slickywoowoo, I'm a member of the General Assembly & Church of the Firstborn, and I love you all here without conditions". What do I do now. I wish not to leave, I wish to be a light to a dying idea of what Jesus was here to set up, and no I am not refering to just the GA/COTFB. Contended_lady, I too read out of the Dake annotated refrence bible, KJV, and have been for about the last 4 years, some things i do not agree with in is interpretation, but i would say 92% of it has opened my eyes into deeper studies. By for now.} |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 2:21 pm: |
|
Well I don't know how I got 2 part 2's on here I will have to come back late and post my part 1, it will make more sense |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 2:23 pm: |
|
I know the 2 half sounds like I am attacking other churches but i am not, I really wish I would not have messed this one up. Please be patient, I was trying to say that this is what they teach, and I don't live by there rules |
4thwatch
New member
Username: 4thwatch
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.3.174.82
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 5:52 pm: |
|
To those of you who were undoubtably offended by the wording contained in my posting, I sincerely appologise, not for my statements, but having offended you without malicious intent. I meant to encourage "toward" doing the right thing and not (as we all have done, myself included) finding ourselves "adding sin to sin"....Please believe me, I am very well acquainted with the grief that I have witnessed the "Brethren" dish out. My focus, for myself with God's help, is to rise above it, and that no one can do alone or "on their own". This web blog is a good vehicle for encouragement, edification, and healing if the posters, like I said, band together in one accord in the Name of the Lord and bear one another's burdens in prayer and together "Lift up The Lord Jesus, exalt HIM, and in due time HE will lift you up. I say that in love from the Scriptures with a pure heart toward you all and the things that you have suffered. Yes I have been hurt, and brought to tears by some of the "Brethren" so called. My appeal to you (to us all) is that we don't let him win, by allowing the Adversary to gloat over the misery that he has caused in the lives of God's dear and precious children. That's the devils job. "Resistance" is what will keep him (satan) at bay. We have to develope a certain "mind set" (renewed) toward God before we can defeat the devil and what he is trying to accomplish in the "victims" through the Brethren. Stand Fast. That is to say ...Stand against that that is wrong (biblically legal) and stand up for that that is right. And where do you think you will find "The captain of the Host of the army of the Lord standing with his sword drawn??? He is standing here right now, willing to fight this battle on your (our) behalf. Of couse we understand from the book of Joshua that this "Captain" is none other than our Lord, Jesus Christ, waiting for us to move this battle from out of our incapable hands and place it into HIS Mighty Hand of Victory. For the Battle is The Lord's....
..."behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
..."And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come.
Man's quest for "pre-eminance" over the people of GOD is causing all this suffering.
Just try to remember the Cross....Our salvation is by way of the cross.....The religious people of HIS day did likewise and even worse to HIM, they "rejected" HIM...hello!!! Slapped Him, Pulled out his whiskers, Spit on HIM.... and that was before they even began to put him to death....Don't you think when "we" enter into the sufferings of Christ that we are actually keeping pretty good company? After all, we are not greater than our Master.
A personal note here...not as doctrinal, but just my opinion....I don't believe that sickness and disease is entering into "HIS Sufferings", for one thing Jesus was never sick a day in His life as far as I can tell. COFB preaches and teaches that "sickness" is suffering for Christ and I don't agree with that theology. I am more inclined to believe that entering into HIS sufferings is more along the lines of suffering at the hands of "false brethren" and the workings of the adversary, to cause God's children to give up, and to "Curse God and Die", so to speak.
They look like sheep...They smell like sheep...they sound like sheep...They talk like sheep........"But some have crept in unawares...
Crept in where? Into the Church. |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 6:19 pm: |
|
4thWatch, THAT's a post I needed to read! Thank you!
I expect the world to hate me, ridicule me and harass me, because they did my Savior. It's when someone becomes such a respecter of persons, that they do the same things, in the name of My Master, that is hard to swallow.
I have no problem forgiving the innocent--who naively believe anything they are told. It's the false teachers, leading those sheep astray, that I have low tolerance for.
I have no "home church". I cling to the teachings of my Dad, my Husband, and my Father-in-law, who base ALL things on the very Word of God. My love for people gives me strength.
I live in what was a well kept older neighborhood, and am currently surrounded by drug users & alcoholics. Their children are my mission. They come to me when hungry, afraid, in need of things, and also when happy.
Of course, it is frightening sometimes. But, man cannot harm my Spirit. So, I carry on. Never knowing what each day will bring. When it's guns or knives, I stay inside, but my door is always open for the children.
Our home is full of LOVE.
Thank you,
contented_lady |
4thwatch
New member
Username: 4thwatch
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.3.174.82
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 7:21 pm: |
|
Contented_Lady
Thank you for your expression of kindness toward those in your neighborhood who are less fortunate, especially the children. It sounds like your home is a safe harbor for those little souls, sounds like their environment is somewhat depraved and even dangerous to say the least. I will keep you and them in my prayers for your safety and provision. God bless you as you bless those around you. Faith with works is not dead, you will reap the fruit of your labors as you labor in love for Christ's sake. Keep The Faith. In Jesus' Name. Amen. Sow such as you have and you will reap in due time if you faint not...that is to say; just don't give up.
In sowing and reaping, in tithings and offerings I try to keep in mind the parable of the "Dead Sea" (most people probably don't realise that there is a parable there)...just bear with me and I'll see if I can convey this the way I see it.
The dead sea has no "outlet", it has an incoming "Source" as we all do........But it hoards it in a "reservoir" and never releases anything in an outflowing. It dies. It is "Stagnant" (spiritual connotation), a continual flowing in, but nothing flowing out (blessing others). The River of Life has a continual and simultanious inflow and outflow, constantly releasing the incoming and continually making room for more to come in from the eternal source that never runs dry. In essence perpetuating life and blessing, upon blessing. you cannot out give GOD! He will return it, in good measure, shaken down, running over.........because you are making room in your reservoir to "receive" more than you can contain.
4thWatch
The Lord Bless you and Keep you. |
catholic_man
Junior Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.125.254
| | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 5:49 pm: |
|
In the midst of our theological disagreements I hope that we can at least agree on one thing...Jesus Christ as our saviour.
Here is a link to an interesting news article about the Valedictorian whom a high school tried to silence when she mentioned God in her speech.
http://www.queenofpeace.ca/Valedictorian_Silenced.htm
Merry Christmas!
Catholic_Man |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 7:53 am: |
|
Of course we can all get along, with gentleness! As Christians we're up against so many worldly things, it's a true battle of Spirits. We don't need to battle each other.
This morning I woke up to hear that our Nation's capital will display a menorah, but not allow a nativity scene. Sort of like displaying an oilrig, but denying a car! (Well, I am in Oklahoma!)
I'm glad to read the article about the young lady standing up for what she believes in. If nothing else, it publicizes our point of view. Thank you for sharing!
We don't sue people. July 3, 2005, a drunk, naked, lesbian, drove a car through one of the pillars of our porch, at 4 a.m. Sounded like a bomb going off. It would have made a good lawsuit. We're still cleaning the brick by hand because it's old and can't be matched. Our insurance wouldn't pay because they were told the car was stolen--a lie.
It's amazing how you can live a quiet, meek, and simple life, and the devil's own can find a way to attack you, anyway!
Merry Christmas to all, and may your new year be filled with family and friends,
contented_lady |
slickywoowoo
New member
Username: slickywoowoo
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 65.112.254.221
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 12:35 pm: |
|
Part 2 from December 20 post at 2:18 pm
Matthew 7:7-8
Ask and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For everyone that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
I found this forum because I asked, God where do I begin; how do I find someone who carries these same burdens and how will I know.
I googled The General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn. After I spent some time reading the posts and even getting in the flesh over a couple of them, I have never made my intentions here known. Let me begin again,
I have no desire to leave the church, I must say that up front. For those here who have left the name "GA/COTFB: keep the faith, the faith you know to be true, the faith spoken of in biblical reference, the faith that has been handed down from generation to generation. The "Faith" can not be named, or categorized, you can not put a religion on it, you CAN NOT add to it and you most certainly CAN NOT take away from it. You can only live it the way it was written. Whatever "Name" you are apart of now or will be apart of; If you ever question anything or are uneasy over anything, (the Holy Spirit dwells within you, he is your guide) study it out, never take mans interpretation on think so's and theroy's; that is why we are all here, frustrated with man's interpretation. I began my quest or "falling away from the faith" so called, I call it being born again by the word.... when I came across Mark 9:38-40
And John answered him saying, Master we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
But Jesus said,Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
For he that is not against us is on our part.
And through to Verse 42
Ok, so wait a minute: FORBID THEM NOT!!!! V. 42 says it is better to have a millstone hung about my neck and thrown in the sea rather than offend " one of these little ones that believe in me".
I know that the COTFB on a sub-conscious level teaches to stay out of "Worldly Churches" and to stay away from Worldly people, and (See December 20 posting for Part 1) |
catholic_man
Junior Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.125.254
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 12:18 am: |
|
Contented Lady,
I agree with you about not being quick to sue people. My dad always taught us that, too. I believe this is a prevalent COFB teaching.
Before I left COFB, my wife and I lived in Tulsa for a few years (where she is from). I am not a lawyer, but spent time weekly attending court sessions as a representative of my company because of my ability to expound facts and evidence. My wife's first cousin is a lawyer in Tulsa who works with the poor.
I look at lawsuits this way. I personally believe that it is wrong to sue someone simply for money sake. However, I do believe that there is nothing wrong with it when faced with justice. There is a very distinct difference...for money...not okay...for justice...yes! Otherwise our legal system would become more corrupt than it already is, if you could believe that! ;-)
I have never personally taken anyone to court, nor do I plan to do so although I am very familiar with the legal system.
There obviously theological viewpoints that all of us may never see eye to eye. However, God's love should trump it all...Deus Caritas Est! (From the Heart of God!)
I am sure that coming from COFB background...some who still are associated in these posts...that we all overlap in the same circles.
Here's my circle via where I have lived and/or assembled on a regular basis at GA&COFB:
Oklahoma...
Hobart (born and raised into adolescence)
Homestead (teenage years and graduated high school in Okeene)
Vici
Weatherford
Cordell (while living in Weatherford)
Stillwater (1990-1993 during college)
Tulsa Dawson
Tulsa Turnpike (now Eastland)
Checotah (when we lived in Muskogee)
Henryetta (only briefly)
Texas:
Irving location - knew Kirby Thompson, etc. pretty well
Colorado:
Fort Lutpon assembly (last assembly we attended). We didn't leave the church because of any of the Colorado brethren. We still love them dearly as well as friends in Oklahoma and Texas.
Family:
Elder Tommy Nation of Morgantown, Indiana, is the grandfather of several of my nephews and nieces.
Elder Frank Rhodes (deceased) of OKC Shields is the grandfather of a whole bunch of my nephews and nieces.
Knew elder Alan Moss of Vici rather well from my childhood...as well as Donald (know deceased). In fact, Brother (Deacon) Don Poulsen baptized me back in 1988. I also used to travel with Brother Don and Brother Benny Watkins on preaching trips.
I am related somehow to most of the Holman family members, too. In fact, I lived with Brother Kyle Holman and kids for about 3 months after I graduated OSU and moved to Tulsa.
Closest friends during some of these times:
Stephen and Glenda Taylor, Ryan Davis, Gary and Jessica Whetstone and Brett and Candy Gladden. In fact, I participated in each wedding.
I still love my friends although we hardly communiate anymore. For several years, Brett and I had a tradition of calling each other on New Year's Day to wish each other the best for the coming year. We have not done this in years...although I did talk to him a few months back when I explained to him why my wife and I left COFB and became Catholic. ;-)
If you know any of the ones I have mentioned then by all means tell them you met a really stubborn Catholic Man named Jonathan. :-) |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
|
Catholic_man
You were baptized by one of our relatives! I'm just thinking, since it was in '88, you are much younger than we are. (I'm 52. My husband is 47.) And, it was probably Lee Don Poulson--also called Don. His Father "Don" had only one eye, and we think passed over prior to 1988.
Poulson's still greet us as family, though we aren't in COFB. Poulsons seem to follow closer to the Old Ways. Very kindhearted folks, with a gentleness of Spirit. More meek, than many of the "new" members.
I'm afraid we aren't in agreement on much with the Moss family. My Father-in-law, especially. And, it was a Moss my husband argued with about "profiteering on sin", i.e. investing in medical stock. If you consider medical treatment a sin, you simply don't try to make money on it.
We care about the COFB people around here. Outsiders always talk about them saying, "They're good people, BUT..." There's ALWAYS a "BUT", sometimes it's about needless deaths. Sometimes about GREED. Corrupt business deals. Sometimes about manipulation. Always a "BUT", follows, "They're good people, BUT..."
I imagine, people say about us, "They're good people, BUT they don't attend church anywhere." lol
Our son visited several denominations, but chooses to follow the Bible as he was taught at home.
Might seem interesting to you, that 12 years ago, he met a beautiful, little Catholic raised girl. They married within a few weeks and remain married still, with a 11 yr old son & a 10 yr old daughter. Our daughter-in-law, fits into our family like an actual "blood" child.
I hope you--and all who visit here--has a wonderfully Blessed Christmas and a memorable New Year.
contented_lady |
catholic_man
Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.125.254
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 3:32 pm: |
|
Nope. It was one-eyed Don who baptized me. I used to hang around with him and Brother Benny Watkins back then. I am 36 years old now.
I really respected Brother Don and his sincerity. He used to come to Weatherford quite a bit and then Stillwater when I moved there.
I really enjoyed his homemade beef jerkey, too!
God bless!
Merry Christmas! |
catholic_man
Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 56
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.125.254
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 3:39 pm: |
|
Oh and to clarify about Don. He passed away October of 1996. I remember it very distinctly. I will miss good people like him.
Before I met my wife, I spent the night with him and family a few times at their farm in Vici. He would take me around town with him, buy groceries for the shut-ins, go pray for the elderly and do little chores for them, which I was volunteered to help do. It was really refreshing to see real Christianity at work behind the scenes of church service.
What Don did was far more important and needed than the 'free for all' style of worship in church. We live in Colorado. We are currently renting until my wife graduates nursing school. Irony would have it that our landlords are related to the Pickerings from Vici although they do not attend nor know much about COFB.
My sister Linda and her husband Dick Nation lived in Vici during the 1980's for a while. Dick is now an ordained elder in Indiana.
It's a small world out there! |
4thwatch
New member
Username: 4thwatch
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 68.241.135.97
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 9:16 pm: |
|
MERRY CHRISTMAS...........AND A BLESSED AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO ONE AND ALL.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 11:13 pm: |
|
May the new year bring the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.... |
saq_madiq
New member
Username: saq_madiq
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.251.120.139
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:45 am: |
|
You aren't alone. Here are some testimonies from others who went throug similar experiences
http://halflife2.zoy.org/hello.jpg
Very shocking! |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 8:48 am: |
|
DO NOT OPEN THE ABOVE LINK POSTED BY saq_madiq
It opens an OBSCENE site, with graphic SEXUAL & GROTESQUE photos!!!
If you DID open it, please delete any cookies, and history for that site, then run your antivirus program, to be on the safe side.
I ALREADY REPORTED IT TO FACT MANAGEMENT.
contented_lady |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 3:41 pm: |
|
Contented,
Whoever it is, I can easily track them down. They are stupid to think any different. The user handle is pretty bad. Anyway, here's his private information being posted publically...idiot!!
OrgName: SBC Internet Services
OrgID: SIS-80
Address: 208 S Akard St
Address: One AT&T Plaza 22nd Floor / Attn: IP Management Group
City: Dallas
StateProv: TX
PostalCode: 75202
Country: US
NetRange: 70.240.0.0 - 70.255.255.255
CIDR: 70.240.0.0/12
NetName: SBCIS-SIS80
NetHandle: NET-70-240-0-0-1
Parent: NET-70-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: NS1.SWBELL.NET
NameServer: NS2.SWBELL.NET
Comment: Contact for general IP Admin support.
Comment: Contact for technical support issues.
Comment: Contact for policy abuse issues.
RegDate: 2004-02-25
Updated: 2005-09-30
RTechHandle: ZS44-ARIN
RTechName: IPAdmin-SBIS
RTechPhone: +1-800-648-1626
RTechEmail:
OrgAbuseHandle: ABUSE6-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Abuse - Southwestern Bell Internet
OrgAbusePhone: +1-800-648-1626
OrgAbuseEmail:
OrgNOCHandle: SUPPO-ARIN
OrgNOCName: Support - Southwestern Bell Internet Services
OrgNOCPhone: +1-800-648-1626
OrgNOCEmail:
OrgTechHandle: IPADM2-ARIN
OrgTechName: IPAdmin-SBIS
OrgTechPhone: +1-800-648-1626
OrgTechEmail:
CustName: Private Customer - SBC Internet Services
Address: Private Address
City: Plano
StateProv: TX
PostalCode: 75075
Country: US
RegDate: 2005-08-03
Updated: 2005-08-03
NetRange: 70.251.112.0 - 70.251.127.255
CIDR: 70.251.112.0/20
NetName: SBC07025111200020050803110358
NetHandle: NET-70-251-112-0-1
Parent: NET-70-240-0-0-1
NetType: Reassigned
Comment: Abuse contact , Technical contact
RegDate: 2005-08-03
Updated: 2005-08-03
RTechHandle: ZS44-ARIN
RTechName: IPAdmin-SBIS
RTechPhone: +1-800-648-1626
RTechEmail:
OrgAbuseHandle: ABUSE6-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Abuse - Southwestern Bell Internet
OrgAbusePhone: +1-800-648-1626
OrgAbuseEmail:
OrgNOCHandle: SUPPO-ARIN
OrgNOCName: Support - Southwestern Bell Internet Services
OrgNOCPhone: +1-800-648-1626
OrgNOCEmail:
OrgTechHandle: IPADM2-ARIN
OrgTechName: IPAdmin-SBIS
OrgTechPhone: +1-800-648-1626
OrgTechEmail: |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 4:00 pm: |
|
Contented_Lady
Thanks for letting everone know about the link posted by saq_madiq.
Glorycloud2007 |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 5:56 pm: |
|
Thank you catholic_man for the info. From there I sent a complaint email to abuse@swbell.net. But, I plan to call them tomorrow, as well. The email read:
One of your customers posted the message below on a discussion board. The link is VULGAR & OFFENSIVE PHOTOGRAPHS.
Please TAKE SOME FORM OF ACTION TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.
Sincerely,
The message was posted at the bottom of the page, here: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/18704.html?1149611138
By your client:
Saq_madiq
New member
Username: saq_madiq
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.251.120.139
And I copied his post.
Oh my, I really hope I was the only one who clicked that link! I am 52 & I've never seen ANYTHING CLOSE to that in my life!
I counted on the safety of this board because it does list our IP#s.
If any of you clicked on it, please notify SWBell Internet, of the abuse. FACTnet management must be on vacation, but BOTH need to be aware.
I am still in shock. He was right about that. It was SHOCKING!
I do want to wish you all a New Year of Blessings, growth, and productiveness.
contented_lady |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 128
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 8:30 pm: |
|
Contented,
Yes, this is very scary. Aside from the pervert trying to post his stuff here, I do think there are benefits to these posts. In fact, a sister of a really good COFB friend of mine emailed me. I am glad that she came out of COFB, too. I always thought alot of her and her family. Her brother has always been a good friend of mine. He still preaches in COFB, but I think he thinks about it because he is an intellect. I will pray for him and his family.
Look, here's the deal: we may not all agree about the Catholic Church, but at least we should agree that GA&COFB is dangerous, especially to little children. Yes, there are very good people still in it, but the fact remains that the doctrine of not going to the doctors is harmful.
My opinion is that people are better off to leave it and attend another church (that isn't a cult)than to try to stay in it expecting to change it. That is the subject matter of this thread, anyway, which Glory so aptly pointed out before. She is right. This is a thread about COFB and not the Catholic Church. I apologize for sounding preachy, but I love my faith and cannot help it sometimes. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 129
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 8:34 pm: |
|
Contented or Glory,
I appreciate Contented's notifying the authorities and/or companies who allowed this post to happen. I want a clean platform that doesn't have that kind of clutter. No, I did not click the link. I saw your message before I even knew that post was there. I appreciate the heads up on it.
May God bless all of you during this new year! |
fullofquestions
New member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 9:53 pm: |
|
I googled "firstborn" and found this thread. I read the whole thing. Wow, very different views and opinions. What classifies this group as a cult? Where can I find the name to the groups original creator and information on his doctrine or teachings. The brainwashing is interesting. How is this accomplished? What do you mean by "following the lead of the spirit"? Do you feel the spirit? |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:39 am: |
|
Catholic_man
Apology accepted.. It wasn’t necessary. I was going to reply back to your thread (the one where you got upset with me) however, changed my mind. I disagree with some of what you are claiming as far as the Catholic church doctrine goes, but as much as I would like to debate you on that subject, this is a GA/COFB discussion board…. By the way did you noticed someone has started a discussion thread ‘Catholic Sects’ here on Factnet. You really could bring some truth there. I mean this in a good way.
What I would like to hear your input as well as everyone one else here about this subject matter, which was brought to this discussion board by ‘4thwatch’. I have copied in blue what she stated about ‘sickness’.
COFB preaches and teaches that "sickness" is suffering for Christ and I don't agree with that theology. I am more inclined to believe that entering into HIS sufferings is more along the lines of suffering at the hands of "false brethren" and the workings of the adversary, to cause God's children to give up, and to "Curse God and Die", so to speak.
Does this suffering “Gloriously” for Christ have to tie in with not going to doctors? One bad thing over the years of being married into the ‘faith’ that I remember is the gossip parties. My mother-in-law has several brothers and sisters, so when several families would get together after church they all had to tell about who was sick, who died, and who was not living the ‘faith’. My husband still gets upset with his mother because she will spend 10 minutes telling him about who is sick, who has died, and who has run away with the milkman….. before he can even say ‘hello’.
I come across a website that has several articles about GA/COFB children dieing and the parents being charged with reckless homicide. The name is rickross.com
“www.rickross.com/groups/firstborn”
One man was interviewed after a child died. This is his story. ”Members of the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn in Morgantown say none of their "brethren" is forced to give up modern medicine. Larry Chapman said he is accepted in the church despite his use of blood-pressure medication. But it is clear to him that others disagree with his choices.” Does anyone know this gentleman?
Give me your thoughts, please.
Glorycloud2007 |
fullofquestions
New member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 1:35 am: |
|
I looked up sick and found in James (brother of Jesus) 5:13-16 reads:
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
My questions:
1. Are these scriptures commandments or suggestions or what?
2. In the Catholic church and GA/COFB, who are the "elders" performing the prayers.
3. What type of oil is used?
4. Has anybody in this tread ever seen this performed and seen any real healing? Or just hocus pocus like on TV.
It would take a lot of faith to actually live by these scriptures. Do you think Elias prayer of faith in verses 17 & 18 about not raining really happened or just a exaggeration on having faith? |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 135
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 2:01 am: |
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Glory,
My brother-in-law is from Morgantown where his dad is an elder. My brother-in-law is now an elder in one of the other surrounding communities about 40 minutes away from there. Morgantown is considered one of the big churches in Indiana aside from the one in Indianapolis. I have been to the Morgantown church on numerous occasions since a little child. I do not know Mr. Chapman, but I suppose my mom would know. I might would know him if I saw him.
I am glad that you brought up the Rick Ross web link. I have been following it for about 2-3 years. I know a majority of the names mentioned and it is sad. The last post was about midwife Doris White. She is a sister in the church who has spent the night at my parents' house several times throughout the years. I know her personally.
Fullofquestions:
Okay, the person using the name of fullofquestions asked about calling the elders. In GA&COFB, they actually have ordained elders who perform that sacrament. However, in the Catholic Church it is the 'priest'. To understand that would be to understand the Greek language and the translation of the words. The term 'elder' in James, Chapter 5, comes from Episkopos or Presbyter, which means 'priest' or 'president' of the assembly. It is actually the same word used for 'elder'.
In GA&COFB, good ole Virgin Olive Oil is used. In the Catholic Church there is an ancient tradition of special oils (as prescribed in the OT) that are used, which are mixed with certain spices. It is blessed once per year by the bishop who then sends out the oil to the local parrishes. You asked!
I have seen healing in COFB, but nothing that could really be proved since they do not rely on medical intervention. I have seen more resulting death than miraculous healing. My opinion on this is that having this kind of faith in effect is like EXPECTING God to do something for you instead of accepting his will. I believe that God wants us to help each other as stated in the 2nd Chapter of James where it says that 'faith without works is dead.' So, I think that COFB viewpoint is dangerous, especially to children. My wife brought up a good point several times. "If COFB expects to subject their children to this type of misapplication of the faith, then why do they deny the children baptism?" Good point!
The story of Elias is from the OT, so yes I believe it happened. |
fullofquestions
New member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 3:13 am: |
|
Thanks, Catholic Man for the insight. I looked into rickross.com. Man nothing but bad news on everybody. It was like watching the news on TV. I mean all that gets on there is "bad" news or publicity. Like today, a young man who played football for Denver was murdered. Hurricane's, tornadoes, tsunamis, blizzards. Where is the good news? What about babies surviving. Either by faith-healing or at a hospital. What about babies dying everyday in hospitals? No one should suffer, but children especially. I always believed that I had an exact moment to be born (I was a preemie) and an exact moment to die. Faith or no faith. Doesn't God already know my time if he know everything. Is something going to change my time or your time or change Gods mind? That's some really deep stuff, talking about predestination, heaven or hell.
I suppose, you being witness to healings in COFB, did you believe in the healings or did you need someone to confirm what you witnessed. Think about poor ole Thomas needing to stick his hands on Jesus's wounds. What constitutes misapplication of faith to some verses totally believing faith, are the same things that every war ever fought in the name of God since the beginning of man. What is crazy for someone is believable to someone else. Have you seen any miracles with the Catholic oil prayers? How often does this type of prayer requested of the Catholic priest? How often does someone have the Priest pray for them and also go to the Hospital? If someone receives healing, do they praise God and the Priest faithful prayer or the medical doctor's abilities? Your wife has a really good question on children baptism. I looked in my concordance, I saw no place in the bible mentioning children getting baptised. Only men and women seeking to get their sins washed away. Kids don't have sin, they are so precious that way. Can a child receive the holy ghost? Again, full of questions??? Do you know if the word Catholic is in the bible. The word does not show up in my concordance. Probably doesn't matter but, I do feel really sorry for you and your wife's loss of a child. I feel like I read in some bitterness in your postings. I've never been in your situation. But I can still pray for you and your wife's loss. I have had a question put like this, would you accept God taking a child at birth or if it had really bad health problems and would be required to stay in the hospital to live and maybe a lifetime (how long or short) needing constant care. We really don't know what is in the future. Both choices would absolutely stink to be in charge to make. Who really is in charge? |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 8:32 am: |
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fullofquestions & all: JUST MY 2 CENTS: I have witnessed healings brought about naturally with "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man...",with & without medical confirmation, and where God has enabled healing through medical attention. I've seen death arise from both, professing Faith healing, and from those who sought medical attention.(I've also witnessed the "slight of hand" gypsy-type healing.)
I believe the "key" to TRUE Faith Healing, ISN'T the prayer coming from the Elders, so much as it's "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man ..."
Consider this Elder. He takes his animals to the vet. Goes to optometrist. Goes to dentists. Buys crop insurance.....I guess you trust in God with some things and others you don't....his 17-18 year old son, lay on the sofa and died, because he needed a simple round of antibiotics...and he BOASTS about making money on MEDICAL MUTUAL FUNDS. What's the difference in trusting God with your child, but not trusting Him with your own eyes or teeth, or animals, or crops, or money?
I can only judge WORKS; not the person himself. Maybe it was the young man's time to pass over. I DON'T KNOW. But, were the prayers for his son coming from a "Righteous man", though they came from an Elder~~several Elders?
Was it the Pharisees that professed Righteousness, because of their APPEARANCE?
The God I serve, doesn't fit in a box. There's room for Him to perform Faith healings, as well as His use of the medical profession. My family takes medication occasionally. We try to stick to over-the-counter drugs, though. And, we use lots of herbs and natural things...grape juice, green tea, saurkraut, etc. for daily health. That's simply what WE feel led to do. We rarely get sick, but when we do, we don't feel pressured about whether or not to seek medical help. It's not the "end all" thing in our lives. It's an option that we can use, if we feel the need to.
**Here's a thought to ponder.** I have a friend who is an outsider. He said, "The Church of the Firstborn is like the Amish, but with modern attire and comforts , and a s***** attitude."
I'm still thinking about his definition of COFB. Being an outsider myself, I can see where he's coming from.
contented_lady |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 2:41 pm: |
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Fullofquestions
1. I think the real bad news about the deaths listed on rickross.com is; (1) They are children (2) With medical intervention, most of them would be alive today.
2. I don't think it matters what oil is used. Motor oil would work just fine, be kind of messy. The 'anointing' was a religious rite started by the Jewish people for various reasons, one of which was for healing.
3. The word 'catholic' means universal. Take it from there. Christ died for all.
Contented Lady
You sure are agitated at a Elder there.
1. God give us a mind to make wise choices in life. Taking animals to the vet, going to the optometrist, dentist and buying crop insurance, or making wise money decisions appears to me to be good common sense. I guess he could just go lay down and pray that God will take care of him financially without any effort on his part.
2. Evidently he didn’t take his son to a doctor was because he believed it would be a sin against God. I really wish we could find out who started this belief against Doctors and medicine. If one believes something is a sin, then for that person, it is a sin…
3. Just what is your definition of a "Righteous man"?
4. **Here's a thought to ponder.** I have a friend who is an outsider. He said, "The Church of the Firstborn is like the Amish, but with modern attire and comforts , and a s***** attitude."
I think that comment was not necessary, and did not bring any good to the discussion board, after all they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. And I do as well need to get the log out of my eyes as well as I am sure my comments about the gossip sessions wasn’t necessary either.
Catholic_Man
1. You didn’t answer my question about the suffering for Christ and how it relates not going to doctors. I believe there is a connection. Almost bragging rights as I see it. Do you understand where I am coming from?
Glorycloud |
contented_lady
New member
Username: contented_lady
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.19.106.220
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 6:29 pm: |
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glorycloud2006
1. I am not angry. I am very disappointed.
2. To quote you; "...If one believes something is a sin, then for that person, it is a sin… " So, as a steward of the funds, God has entrusted in me, I would lay deeply sinful, if I invested those funds for something I deem sinful to grow. I couldn't in good conscious earn a few grand off such a sin. No amount of money would be worth my involvement in spreading something I deem sinful. I couldn't make a few bucks on it, then tell the people who use it, they were going to hell, and expect to have any credibility in other things. (That's what's disappointing. He is firm enough in his belief to sacrifice, and the man has teachings that are beneficial, but they might not be listened to now.)
I believe walking away from an investment you deem sinful, brings financial gain in another area of investment. There's many ways to diversify, without compromising your values. Several fields of investment, did quite well last year. Some far better than medical. You don't have to just lay down, or even compromise your values.
3. My personal definition of a "righteous man", is a man who is "Christlike".
4. You're right about my friend's comment not being necessary here. It wasn't needed. I simply found it interesting.
contented_lady |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 138
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 67.135.19.86
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 6:34 pm: |
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Glorycloud,
Here is excerpt from the Catechism:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2art5.htm
"1505 Moved by so much suffering Christ not only allows himself to be touched by the sick, but he makes their miseries his own: "He took our infirmities and bore our diseases."112 But he did not heal all the sick. His healings were signs of the coming of the Kingdom of God. They announced a more radical healing: the victory over sin and death through his Passover. On the cross Christ took upon himself the whole weight of evil and took away the "sin of the world,"113 of which illness is only a consequence. By his passion and death on the cross Christ has given a new meaning to suffering: it can henceforth configure us to him and unite us with his redemptive Passion."
According to COFB, SOME think that people suffer due to sin. Others rightly say that it unifies us with Christ's sufferings. HOWEVER, where COFB is dangerous is that they rely on some miracle to happen. Jesus did not say that miracles were a guarantee. He did tell us in Matthew, Chapter 25, to feed the hungry, visit the sick, etc. This means actually doing something about it.
Here's the point. This is a sermon I once heard in COFB, but I will put in my 2 cents worth at the end.
I am sure that you would not take your car to any Joe down the street who says he can fix your car (not that intelligent people couldn't figure it out). Nope. You could take your car to the repair shop, but why not take it to the one who created the car? This was the preacher's reasoning. HOWEVER, my thought is why would I take my car to the manufacturing facility? For one, it may be too far away, and also, it may cost too much money. An employee at the mfg may say something like, "We just manufacture, but there are several well trained repairmen out there; why not go to someone skilled in that area?"
See, they try to say that you bypass the repair shop and go straight to the creator. Now, I have no problem with praying to God for healing. Please reference my post Number: 5 above. (It is a ways up there.) However, God has allowed man the knowledge of medicine. Obviously a doctor cannot raise the dead or prolong life to 300 years. The point is that there is common sense, and the doctor is the repair shop.
As a Catholic, we view our suffering as being united with Christ's suffering. When we are in pain, we are supposed to put our trust in God, but NOT without medical intervention. That's where COFB and Catholics differ.
I heard several in the COFB state that their dying child was like Isaac whom Abraham willingly offered to God until the angel stayed his hand. They even use the term sacrifice. Pardon me, but the only valid sacrifice is Jesus...not the poor little child in misery. It is a total misapplication of scripture and dangerous. The situation with Abraham was simply a foreshadowing of the coming of Christ who would die on the cross for our sins.
A really good COFB friend of mine said that his dad made him go to surgery for appendicitis when he was young. The procedure saved his life, yet he resented his dad for taking him as a lack of faith. That is so twisted.
He clung onto what the doctor said that it was a miracle he was still alive. I would venture to say that he would have died without the procedure. Of course, I do believe in divine healing. God can do what he wants. |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 8:30 pm: |
|
Contented_Lady
To quote you; "...If one believes something is a sin, then for that person, it is a sin… "
I suspect this elders values are not the same as yours. Have you questioned his motives and reasons as to why he lives his life the way he does. Or are you just upset that he doesn’t measure up to your expectations. Or have you just made these observations about this elder because he doesn’t fit the profile of what you have been taught by your father?
The values that you have imposed on yourself may not be the same for other people, myself included. I fail to see why it would be a bad investment to invest in medical stocks verses any other stock. Personally I think investing in the stock market period can be risky. Much like gambling.
What if this elder was using that money for the glory of God, ie feeding, clothing and providing shelter for the poor, would you still be as quick to judge him?
How many elders do you know that would be willing to give their life for anyone within their congregation? There is none righteous, no not one…
Catholic_Man
1. You have a great deal of wisdom and it is evident that you have studied the bible. Why must you clutter your replies with Catholic readings, sayings and doctrine? Clutter your replies with Gods word, it is much more powerful.
2. Can you imagine if I quoted Southern Baptist (Yes I am a Baptist and I believe in ‘once saved, always saved’) doctrine in reply to your Catholic answers. No one would benefit here because we would be in contention with each other…. And no one here would benefit from our religious debate.
3. What does Gods word say about praying for physical healing? Everything good comes from God. The mixing of chemicals for medicine is good, the mixing of chemicals for drugs that damage the nervous system, destroy families, kill people, and put money in the hands of evil. That is not good.
4. “The point is that there is common sense, and the doctor is the repair shop.” Is a profound statement that I agree with.
5. I still want to find the source of this doctrine within the GA/COFB. I believe most people in the doctrine have been fed this doctrine for several generations and have never questioned it. I am sure that Gods hand has healed many, I don’t deny this, but I suspect that the elder or persons that deemed going to doctors and taking medicine was terribly wrong was trying to hide something from the law.
Glorycloud |
fullofquestions
New member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 9:30 pm: |
|
Hey Glorycloud did you check out my posting on James 5:13-16 KJV. Adding nothing to it and take nothing away from it and I'm guessing this is what your after. |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 12:32 am: |
|
fullofquestions
For some of the dear brothers and sisters in the faith that I know, I believe it is pure faith and love of God and James 5:13-16 all the way.
I think when the church was new and life on the praire was hard...no doctors..no medicene..it was easier to live without medical technology. Now it is so readilly available and laws are being madfe to protect the inocent, it becomes a issue. The bible does teach that we are to obey the laws of the land. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 144
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 12:34 am: |
|
Glorycloud,
Contented, correct me if I am mistaken, but Glorycloud I believe that you are misunderstanding the problem that Contented is having.
Here is the way I see the problem and am open for correction from Contented as I cannot speak for her:
The COFB elders (most, but not all) teach that it is sin to go to a doctor, precisely quoting what 'fullofquestions' stated in James, Chapter 5. The elder she is talking about preaches against the use of medical care in lieu of faith. A family member then dies as a result of this teaching. Then the elder boasts that he is making money on a medical fund in his portfolio.
To me that is the ultimate of being hypocritical. I do not quite understand your argument of him doing something good with something that he teaches as wrong. That would be the equivolent of my stealing of a load of lumber, which I knew was sin. Then all of a sudden I decide that to make up for it that I will donate all of the wood to build a church building. WAIT!! You say, that's not right!
The right thing to do would be to return it back to whom I stole it and make restitution. Although it may sound good on the surface, donating the wood to the church would only brings reproach since it was wrongly acquired.
I hope you see my point.
Now to me I have no problem with medicine or purchasing medical stock (so long as it isn't a pro-abortion group). If I know that a company engages in blatant activities that go against my morals then I am obligated by my humanity to cut off trade with that organization. Apparently the elder thought that it was SOOOOOO sinful to go to the doctor, yet laughed about his fortunes in medical stock??? Give me a break!
Glory, as far as your seeking of COFB beliefs...don't expect to find a written 'Catechism' of sorts in the COFB. They all claim to teach bible truths, yet many of them disagree on many points. The James 5:13-16 scripture is one that alot rely on to justify not going to the doctor. Funny thing...Luke was a physician. According to history, he kept that profession even after becoming Christian. In fact I researched where that in the 1st and 2nd Centuries that Christians were having surgeries. Of course, they did not have X-Rays or advancements like we do, today. But they were seeking the medical knowledge of the time coupled with prayer, of course.
I do remember that somebody made up a little tri-folded pamphlet back in the late 1980's entitled "Who we are and what we believe". It circulated around the Vici area for a while. I remember that I had one for a long time...don't know where it is now.
It basically listed some of the things in an earlier post about women with long hair, greeting with a Holy Kiss, calling for the elders in sickness, etc. |
obadiah
Member
Username: obadiah
Post Number: 71
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.169.190.223
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 12:56 am: |
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I reject all forms of abortion. |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:29 am: |
|
Catholic_man
1. I believe I have a complete understanding of contented_ladys issue with the elder and I disagree with your assessement of the situation. However, I also believe that contented lady is capable of voicing her argument with out you having to rush in to defend her. She likes to get up on a soapbox as do you when it comes to criticizing people.
2.Next time you ask a hungry person if it is acceptable to him if you purchase him some food with money you believe has been obtained as the result of a sinful deed. He will tell you yes sir just feed me....
Give me a break.Until you have personally been in a hungrey persons shoes don't be so self rightous about where the money comes from. This is the point I wish to convey to both of you.
1.I don't care what the early christians were doing (from a catholic point of view) other than what the bible say they were doing. (Act 4:32-Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.)which none of the churches today do including your precious Catholic church.
I am not looking for a declaration of written beliefs as much as reading about different ones understanding of what they think the church believes.
Glorycloud |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 148
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:31 am: |
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Hey Obadiah!
Glad my Orthodox brother could join my over here in this forum. Now you know my Protestant background.
I agree with you, abortion is murder! |
glorycloud2006
New member
Username: glorycloud2006
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.96.160.195
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:33 am: |
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Obadiah
Good. Are you prepared to raise all of the unwanted children that will be born as a result of teenage pregancies?
Don't reject, get involved and change hearts and minds. |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 149
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:42 am: |
|
Glorycloud,
There is absolutely no reason to be snippy. Chill!
I do disagree with you emphatically about using stolen funds for good deeds when the rightful thing is to return those funds to whom they belong. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
I never said that you shouldn't feed the poor. Yes we are instructed to do so, but we have to give of what we can give and not because we stole it from someone to give it.
You do know the 10 commandments? I believe you heard of the one that says, "Thou shalt not steal". Now, come on.
Now I am trying to be civilized on this post, but most criticism that I have seen has come from you and a couple of others. Since they are not the ones engaging me in conversation right now then I choose not to name them.
You continually attack me for no reason. I don't get it. All I can say is CHILL!! |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 150
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:48 am: |
|
Glorycloud said:
Catholic_Man
1. You didn’t answer my question about the suffering for Christ and how it relates not going to doctors. I believe there is a connection. Almost bragging rights as I see it. Do you understand where I am coming from?
Glorycloud,
When I did answer you. I cited a source, which I believe as credible in understanding the situation. I then went on to explain my perception, but in doing so you attacked me on that point as well. Why do you ask me questions if you plan to bash me for answering them? |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 151
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 2:02 am: |
|
Glorycloud,
I'll take the unwanted children, gladly. Two wrongs don't make a right. Another of the 10 commandments says "Thou shalt not kill."
People who are Pro-Choice (rather, Pro-Death) like to throw the word 'Choice' around. Does the infant have a choice? I am absolutely against abortion. Period. There is a living human life and then it gets taken. It is a sad day when someone condones such a horrendous act. That is pitiful.
What's next? Kill off all of the elderly because they're in the way? I am disgusted thinking that someone could be for that kind of treatment to another human being. That is precisely why I disagree with COFB is because of the lack of care they show toward children who need help. Now, I know that they love their children and are only doing what they're taught. But abortion is even worse. At least COFB is trying to use prayer for their children. Abortion is like not even using prayer but putting a rope around their neck.
Jesus said that it were better that a millstone be tied around ones neck than to harm a little one.
Now this doesn't mean that we commit the abortionists to hell. No. We pray for them. The woman from Roe vs. Wade is now anti-abortion. She finally realized how much society lied to her. God loves all people no matter what they have done, but that doesn't mean we justify sin.
God have mercy! |
catholic_man
Intermediate Member
Username: catholic_man
Post Number: 152
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 72.161.113.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 2:09 am: |
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