| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous (69.144.19.237) |
wel i think the reason that people hate mormons are that because of the things that they do. i myself am a mormona nd i love it. yes my mom and dad are mormons also but i chose to be a mormon. it is the true church in my opinion and i hope that you all can respect that. | ||
| Anonymous (24.9.203.201) |
I can respect your opinion, if you can respect my opinion that its not the true church. But the problem is, you can't. | ||
| Anonymous (80.255.220.142) |
I despise mormons and consider them to be the antithesis of Christ, God the Father and the Holy Ghost. They are on a par with paedofiles, Mengele and David Koresh. At least the devil is honest in comparison. Mormons hide behind a veil of conceited blasphemy and their time will come in hell. When the scum arrive in pairs at my door the stench of their presence nearly makes me retch, but vomit smells sweet compared to them in comparison.In my opinion the perfect present for a post 18 year old Mormon is napalm. | ||
| Anonymous (172.168.52.103) |
Whoever wrote the last post is obviously not a Christian. Helloooooo satan. | ||
| Anonymous (205.188.117.20) |
Mormons Make me sick. In fact, if given the chance, I would shit in their face. Polygamy. No Soda. No Staying up past 7. No this. No that. Here's what I think of ya. GET THE FUCK OFF MY PLANET YOU MORMON BITCHES! | ||
| Anonymous (65.31.153.32) |
I hate anybody that shrouds himself in ignorance. These Mormons don't even have the imagination to cook up any good lies to tell their weak, pathetic, (yes, and often funny-looking) cult members. I've done time in Salty Lake City and watched the Stepford oops I mean Mormon Wives sitting in Sunday Brunch at the Marriott downtown mechanically eating with that blank, empty look in their eyes while dribbling jello on their JC Penny pantsuits. Their drugged children in their flobee haircuts have all the life snuffed out of them already as they sit there like clams, shut out, semi comatose, filtering shit out of the water. | ||
| Anonymous (63.163.24.188) |
"I hate anybody that shrouds himself in ignorance." Amen! That's why I hate anti-Mormonism. | ||
| ashley 17 y/o mormon girl_ (205.206.112.244) |
If you are going to attempt to make an argument against Mormons, at least be eductated. (205.188.117.20) knows nothing about what he is talking about. Mormons no longer practise polygamy. There is no rule against drinking soda, or staying up past 7. If you consider yourselves Christian, maybe you should consider what Christ would do. If you believe that Mormons believe in something wrong, that's okay. But don't attack us saying that we don't know what we believe. Weekly, I spend 3 hours of church on sunday, sometimes with a youth service for 1 1/2 hours, and go to seminary every week day for an hour. If you want to tell me that I am not dedicated in understanging my religion please explain to me why. We are encouraged to question principles, and not be mindless puppets. We spend time learning about why we are commanded certain things. But are never told simply just to do things without gaining faith. | ||
| trythefacts (216.175.225.197) |
Ashley, you have been brainwashed. Pure and simple. You say you spend many hours each week "learning about why we are commanded certain things". Commanded by whom? God? NO... by the Mormon "leadership" that gives a loooong list of rules that have nothing to do with Jesus or God's plan for us. I do know quite a bit about Mormonism because of family members who have fallen victim to this way of life. I think that the soda reference was in relation to caffeine being a no-no; no coffee, tea, or dark soda. What does that have to do with being a Christian? Why are new converts required to be baptised again? How conceited to think that a Mormon baptism has more weight in God's eyes than one in any other denomination. Baptism by Proxy (being baptised in the name of another person, living or dead) is an offensive practice that denies God's gift to us of FREE WILL. You are young and may still see how wrong this cult..yes, CULT...is. But your opinion doesn't carry much weight anyway (in Mormon thinking) because you are female. | ||
| Anonymous (63.230.18.103) |
woooooooooooa talk about ignorant people .....its almost funny!! you hate mormons because they can not have soda?? who told you that?? staying up past 7?? hahaha id love to havea conversation with you and my guess would be your only 12 and very uneducated ..... | ||
| Orlando (201.130.163.32) |
mormons are the most hypicritical people in the world. i would know, i was mormon for 17 years. (happily a thing of the past) there's somany holes in their way of thinking. why is it that they belive their church to be the true church? because they feel it? ok. have they ever tryied to attend any other church to see what how attending it would feel? i'm willing to bet that 95 pecent of mormon who have been mormons all their lives have not. and yet thay claim that there is no other ture church on the face of the planet. how would they know? the only thing i see wrong with the mormon people(other than the previously mentioned), is that they are conformist(most of them), and they think that everyone that isn't mormon is evil. seriously. people that aren't mormon are an outcast to them. maybe you people should be a little more open minded. if you have any opinions about my coments and would like to have a serious, honest disccusion about it, then feel free to email me with your thoughts and/or topic of discussion. rpipoet@hotmail.com | ||
| Anonymous (63.230.18.103) |
another uneducated guess ...........why do you care what she beleives or what she beleives ....dont worry about!! Ashely , ya did good and it doesnt matter what anyone else says as long as what your doing makes you happy !! | ||
| Anonymous (172.201.168.34) |
Duh? Why do we care? Because Christ commanded that we, as followers of Him, teach the true message to those who don't know Him. Ashley, you don't know the real Jesus Christ and I am welcoming you to get to know Him. We will have to deprogram you from the false doctrines that God was once a man and that man can become God. Then you can experience the one true God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. You will then no longer live under the tyranny of man made rules and enjoy the true spiritual freedom God intended us to have. You are welcome, all of you. | ||
| Anonymous (67.42.123.208) |
well, i dont think its any of your busness how she chooses to worship .....duh | ||
| Anonymous (172.128.237.16) |
When mormons stop broadcasting television commercials that says they are just another branch of the Christian Church (NOT) and they will send you a free video and book of mormon (another gospel of Jesus Christ), (NOT), then it will no longer concern me directly how she chooses to self worship. Moslems claim that Christ was just another prophet, like mormons. Many religions acknowledge that Christ was a good teacher, like mormons. None of these other religions claim that they are Christians too. Only Christians claim Jesus as their saviour and that He is the one and only Son of God. Mormons do not claim that Jesus is the one and only Son of God because they believe that they are all sons of God. Mormons believe that God is just some provincial sub-deity of this minor planet in this backwater solar system in the milky way galaxy, among millions of other gods. When Mormons stop deceiving innocent people by claiming they are Christian too, then I will no longer concern myself with what Ashley believes. But I will continue to speak of my Saviour Christ to anyone who will listen. Is that a deal? | ||
| Anonymous (67.42.123.208) |
once again your wrong and you need to keep reading ........you wont receive a book of mormon or a video unless you request one .... is it so hard for you to write the truth and not your misleading lies?? Or is it that you really dont know and just like to spread hate and falsehoods. Unlike muslims we do not beleive christ was a prophet .......DUH | ||
| Anonymous (172.164.67.63) |
Do you believe that through spiritual progression you can become equal with Christ? Yes or No? | ||
| Anonymous (172.164.67.63) |
No hate here, no lies. Just answer the question truthfully and non-evasively. Yes or No? | ||
| Anonymous (67.42.123.208) |
No mormons do not think they we will be equal to god .......and whoever or where ever you got your info is sadly mistaken ..... | ||
| Anonymous (172.162.198.127) |
An evasive answer if ever there was. Read the question and answer the question asked. Yes or no. | ||
| Anonymous (67.42.123.208) |
no not evasive just not the one you want ......i answered it so, if you dont like my answer , sorry | ||
| Anonymous (172.208.53.29) |
Question was: do you believe a mormon man can become equal to "Christ" through spiritual progression? | ||
| Anonymous (67.163.201.62) |
I believe that people truly hate the Mormons because of Donny and Marie Osmond. After watching their show once in the late 1970's that was all it took for me. | ||
| Anonymous (172.203.68.167) |
Anon 67, answer me. | ||
| Anonymous (63.163.24.188) |
Seriously, Anonymous 172, you don't know what in the hell you're talking about. You need to learn about what Mormons actually believe if you want to have any credibility. | ||
| Anonymous (172.140.72.147) |
Anon 63. That is why I am asking you. Again: Can a mormon become equal to Christ through spiritual progression? Was God once a man according to your belief? Teach me what you believe by answering me truthfully. I won't berate you but I might share my differences with you. | ||
| Anonymous (67.42.123.208) |
i answered you ........its just not the answer you want ! sorry...thats all!! | ||
| Anonymous (172.144.138.175) |
No, you did not answer me. If you did when and where was it? | ||
| Anonymous (67.42.123.208) |
"if" you can read the posts you will see i have answered it several times........i think enough has been said on this if you want to find more info or if you want a more involved answer i put a website down you can look there ...THATS ALL | ||
| Brenda Linton (24.80.245.5) |
If you happen to be a recent wealthy immigrant with bad English skills,watch out the Mormans want you...that is, really, really want your money! As an English instructor, I often visit the homes of wealthy Chinese people who have just immigrated. I teach their kids while the parents are busy or go to work. I can't count the number of times a pair of freshly washed Mormons in cheap suits and bad haircuts have rang the doorbell to deliver their message. Sometimes a child of about 7 years old answers the door, and these "Christians" try to push past them to get way inside the house to preach the word. I have had to literally thrown these parasites out of the house. They promise wealthy, albeit naive Asians who are too polite to slam the door in their faces that they will save their dead ancestors' souls from eternal hell for a very hefty fee. All the money goes to the great Mecca at Salt Lake City, which must reek to high heaven by now with the stench of lies and deceit. | ||
| Anonymous (63.163.24.188) |
"Can a mormon become equal to Christ through spiritual progression?" No. "Was God once a man according to your belief?" Yes. Now maybe you can answer some questions. Where does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that "Christ was just another prophet"? Where does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that "God is just some provincial sub-deity of this minor planet"? | ||
| Anonymous (205.188.117.20) |
You have not answered my question "Can man become God (or a god) through spiritual progression?". Where is the mormon proof that God was once a man? Answer mine and I will answer yours. The answer to yours lies in your answers to mine. | ||
| Anonymous (63.163.24.188) |
Sorry, not going to play that game. You asked me two questions. I answered them. Your turn. | ||
| Anonymous (64.12.117.20) |
You evaded my questions. Give me proof or at least a basis of belief why you think God was once a man. It only goes to follow in your thinking that if God was once a man, then a man, such as yourself, could become a god. I know you are trying to keep the real teachings of the Mormon church secret, but the truth is out there. Prove me wrong. | ||
| Anonymous (66.109.195.75) |
This is all too boring, wake me up when someone with some brain asks the really good questions. ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ | ||
| Anonymous (63.163.24.188) |
LOL! Why are you so afraid to answer the questions? | ||
| Anonymous (205.188.117.20) |
You said God was once a man. You give no basis for this belief. So other men, such as yourself, can become god. So there must be millions of gods in the universe according to your belief. So, according to your belief, god is a minor sub diety of this backwater solar system in the milky way. If a man can become god then somewhere along the way, by spiritual progression, you can become equal or as great as Christ. Right or wrong according to mormon beliefs? | ||
| Anonymous (63.163.24.188) |
Wrong. Will you answer the questions now? In case you forgot: Where does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that "Christ was just another prophet"? Where does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that "God is just some provincial sub-deity of this minor planet"? Hint: give us references. | ||
| Anonymous (64.12.117.20) |
Defender of the mormon faith: if you believe that God was once a man, the rest is just a logical progression of man's ability to become god. And if one man can become, so can others. Pretend all you want that those are not mormon fundamental beliefs. There are tenets that are accessible to the non-mormon world and many that are not. Now answer why mormons believe that God was once a man. | ||
| Anonymous (172.209.105.78) |
What's the matter? You can't explain why you believe that God was once a man? | ||
| Anonymous (216.190.8.73) |
You all need help!! You should all worry about something else that really matters!! Get lives people!!! | ||
| Anonymous (63.163.24.188) |
If "Christ was just another prophet" and "God is just some provincial sub-deity of this minor planet" really are "mormon fundamental beliefs", you ought to be able to come up with at least one verse or quote to demonstrate this. So far you have only claimed some mysterious "logical progression" which must exist only in your mind, because Mormons do not believe those things. | ||
| Anonymous (205.188.117.20) |
You believe that God was once a man. Why do you believe this? Quote me a verse to explain why you believe this. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
ive been in temples, churches of other faiths and they welcome me with open arms even in differant countries, but i cant get in to a mormon temple cuz im not worthy? ha they must be hidding something | ||
| Anonymous (64.12.117.20) |
Just like they hide their true beliefs. They pretend they are Christians. But their hidden beliefs reveal that they are not Christian. Unfortunately, nobody discerns this until it is too late. They've been sucked in and brainwashed. | ||
| Blaine (207.88.149.234) |
LDS Faith to sum it up brain washes and works on instilling guilt tactics to make their followers believe in some spiritual guidance. I WAS mormon, and I was tricked into joining the Church. When I was 10 years old I was visited by Missionary's who came to teach me, but more importantly they told me "If I didn't join the Church I couldn't play on the Church basketball team". I was young, and loved sports. I thought "big deal, church for basketball" I was baptised, and routinely attended church services. After 10 years I found the faults of the Church, and this is coming from someone that has seen both sides, so I can speak on that. First...they have you attend Church once a week for 3 hours for what? To instill repetition, and make you feel guilty if you do not. Not to mention the number of Church related activities through out the week that constantly drive home their message. If you read books published on brainwashing (Mainly Government strategies) then you'll see this is exactly what the LDS Church does. 2nd- A prophet of God, Ordained by God, yet when a Prophet dies whoever is the next rank in leadership fits his role? Seems a bit off, but dare a Mormon question their leadership. I hope all Mormons will research their religion like I did, so that they too can find the flaws in it. It's funny when I came out saying the Church was wrong all my family members thought something was wrong with me "Are you on drugs? Are you gay?" THey couldn't accept the fact that I didn't believe in a false church, and I had uncovered false teachings. Do your research. | ||
| Anonymous (172.200.252.66) |
That was a message of courage and hope. Thanks. | ||
| Anonymous (66.56.149.187) |
I am from the third moon of KOLOB!!! I will send the spirit babies of Boyd Packer to haint chu!!!! | ||
| ccccarah (ccccarah) New member Username: ccccarah Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.2.73.168 |
I'm not going to try to start any kind of stupid anti-mormon fight here but....If you think that mormons are stupid and are just a bunch of brain- washed freaks then go on thinking just that. But even if I have been brain washed and my whole church is all fake, I don't really care because it makes me happy and I know it's all worth it in the end. PS- you people really do need to do some reading. For the person who said we're a cult I just thought I would tell you that any group that follows a leader is a cult. ;) If you have any problems I would love to talk with you at hickeyfromkenickie@hotmail.com! | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Being happy and being lost at the same time is a sad state of affairs. | ||
| rebelrenegade (rebelrenegade) Junior Member Username: rebelrenegade Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.214.86.140 |
"Anonymous (205.188.117.20) Mormons Make me sick. In fact, if given the chance, I would .... in their face. Polygamy. No Soda. No Staying up past 7. No this. No that. Here's what I think of ya. GET THE FUCK OFF MY PLANET YOU MORMON ........!" I got something to say. Regardless of what you think about the Mormons. That attitude and language is unchristianlike. These are forums for us to discuss cults, cult-like religions, and sects, not for people like you to come along and cuss someone out. I see no Christlike attibutes there. | ||
| ccccarah (ccccarah) New member Username: ccccarah Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.2.73.168 |
I agree, if you're gonna talk like that then you might as well leave. That is really unchristian. By the way franklin, I'm not lost. I know exactly what I'm doing with my life. How 'bout you? | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 196 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 172.148.54.249 |
Yep! I know exactly. I'm speaking the true gospel of Christ to you. God was not a man. God is God. From the beginning to the end. Man can not become God. I have been commanded to reach people, just like you, with the true gospel of Christ. Africa is not an ocean away. You are my Africa. | ||
| ccccarah (ccccarah) New member Username: ccccarah Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.2.73.168 |
God was never man. What the...I keep telling you this. Jesus was man! Not God! That's the truth and that's what we believe. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 203 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
Here is what another mormon posted: Anonymous (65.54.97.191 Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 5:07 pm: "In response to how the LDS church believes that they can become gods: Our Father in Heaven, or God, did not just appear one day with all the powers and knowledge and perfection that He posseses. He gained these things through a very long process...learning and progression have no end, remember. Everyone whom our father in heaven has created (evryone) has the ability and potential to become like Him: perfect and all-knowledgable. Like I said, it is simply a process, a journey. I believe that we can all become gods in some day and at one time...governing our own children and creating our own worlds and teaching THEM to strive to progress to eventual perfection. God's whole Plan is an eternal round, not a line: one god, one world, one judgment, the end. Our whole existence holds a place in a circle of progression and continuation. Our Heavenly Father loves us and does not look down upon us but instead looks at us with a perfect faith and hope that we will choose to follow Him and His son Jesus Christ and eventually become like them, perfect." So this mormon believes and says LDS believes that God was once a man. Are you sure you are a mormon? | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Junior Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.207 |
Take a look at: http://www.myfortress.org/MormonChurch_GodWasOnceAMan.html God Was Once A Man, Mormons Shall Become gods "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." (Prophet Lorenzo Snow, quoted in Milton R Hunter, The Gospel Through The Ages p.105-106) "God is a Holy Man." (Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 2, p. 78.) "God himself, the Father of us all..was once a man like us." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305) "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret...If you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see...He was once a man like us...Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves." (Joseph Smith, Teaching of the Prophet, pp. 345-46) "God used to be a man on another planet." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.) There's more evidence from Mormon own documents. So it's possible that some Mormons don't really know what is taught.. They start them off by telling them stuff they can accept and add more and more to it as they go. Kind of like the frog in the frying pan. M or Michael | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Junior Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.207 |
Quote:For the person who said we're a cult I just thought I would tell you that any group that follows a leader is a cult. Response: You're getting around the discussion about whether Mormons are a cult by using the first defintion : formal religious veneration : worship : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents When in fact this discussion board is about the 3rd use of the term. Also within the cult term there is a cult by theological and socioligical definitions: Theological - definitions make note of the reasons why a particular group's beliefs and/or practices are considered unorthodox - that is, in conflict with the body of essential teachings of the movement the group compares itself to. Sociological - such factors as authoritarian leadership patterns, loyalty and commitment mechanisms, lifestyle characteristics, [and] conformity patterns. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09.html As such Mormonism falls under both sociological and theological definitions. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) New member Username: solopilot Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Orlando: I grew up in "other churches," and became LDS when I was an adult. By the way you put things, I think that you grew up LDS and left to "find yourself in the real world." Hope you enjoy the experience. nwonmike: Who gave you the right to define what is and is not a "cult"? It's your own church which is unorthodox, your own beliefs which are spurious, and if held to the same standard to which you anti-Mormons hold my church, yours leaks like a sieve, whichever one of the thousands of "one true Christian" cults you belong to. Rebelrenegade: Unfortunately, "anonymous" reflects the "mainstream Christian" attitude toward anything which doesn't fit the doctrines of whatever particular brand of Christianity one belongs to. This includes lying about those one doesn't agree with. And if you think that what he says is too harsh to be "Christian," let me remind you that it was considered "Christian" to rape, murder and steal from Mormons. In fact, there was a gubernatorial order in Missouri that Mormons be exterminated, and it was in effect until 1976! Blaine: What cult are you a member of now, which claims to be Christian but says that you can do whatever you want, without penalty? On the big argument question, "Can man become equal to God?" the answer is no -- anymore than I can become equal to my Dad, just because I have grown up. Can man become "Heavenly Father" to his own children? SURE, the same way that I am "Dad" to my own kids. The fun part of that question is that you anti-Mormons can't show me a single passage in what you have of the Scriptures which says that I'm wrong . . .yet you still claim that you are right. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.66.130.49 |
I got news for you, the term cult has been around you can find it in the dictionary. Mormons are a cult in both theological and sociological sense. We're not the ones trying to keep people isolated, telling them what to think, say and do. We are like Jesus, he met the people in the world and addressed their needs. You say that man cannot be equal to God then you deny Mormonism because it IS what they believe out of the mouth of your own prophets. Okay, you make dogmatic assertions without defensible arguments. Simply because you can't. I belong to a denomination but they still believe in the essentials just as Baptist, Methodist, etc. do. They simply have different ways of operating and certain difference but they are not on the essential. It is Mormon's incorrect view and ignorance that is the problem. They're told what to think about us but don't ever check things out for themselves because they are told not to think or reason for themselves unless it lines up with the Mormon thought. You make statements but can't back them up with any proof. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) New member Username: solopilot Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
I got news for you, Mike, ALL of Christianity qualifies as "cultism" -- just ask any Jew. Or let's ask Webster: "Main Entry: cult Pronunciation: 'k< Function: noun Usage: often attributive Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL 1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents" "Mainstream" Christianity certainly fits the first, any organized Christian church fits the second, and plenty of Protestant churches fit the third, because you folks have some truly absurd beliefs about the nature of Christ. Regarding exaltation, you are either intentionally or unintentionally not understanding what I meant. We cannot be equal to our Heavenly Father. We can become gods similar to him, but he will always be our Father. Which essentials, Mike? How about baptism? Many of your Protestant cults do not believe that baptism is necessary (despite the fact that Christ felt it necessary to be baptised). Others say that without baptism, one is not Christian. How essential a doctrine is that? Or how about standards of conduct? Some Protestants hold that once you have "accepted Christ," you are forgiven of your sins, no matter what horrendous things you do. Oh, and I'm plenty familiar. I was a Protestant, before I got tired of all the leaks in Protestant doctrine. I was skeptical of Mormonism, but the more I learned (and the more I saw the feet of clay of the prominent anti-Mormons) the more convinced I became that LDS doctrine could be right. Then I did something that no Protestant preacher had ever told me to do -- I asked GOD what the truth about Mormonism was. After that, it was a foregone conclusion. That was in 1975, and with everything that you and your fellow anti-Mormons have had to say, I have never regretted my decision. However, I have been oft-blessed, and seen the power of God act on my life and others in ways which are impossible to explain through coincidence. It's proof that you want? Okay, since you brought up the concept, and since you say that I'm wrong because I don't agree with what you believe, first you should provide proof that what you believe is right. But of course, you can't. Provide secular contemporary proof to us that Jesus actually ever existed. To save you the effort of dragging out Josephus, let's remember that he wasn't even born until long after the Crucifixion, so everything that he has to say is secondhand at best. No court in the country would admit that. Try again. How about any record from the Pharisees of the trial of Jesus? They didn't get so many people crucified for heresy that they wouldn't have bothered making the record. Or maybe you have Pilate's letter to the Roman Imperial Seat, explaining his order to kill a Jew (who he found blameless) on the word of other Jews? For that matter, how about his order to release Barrabas from prison? Nothing from Pilate, ha? How about something from one of his political enemies, either critical of the rubber-stamping of the Pharisees' demands or critical that he tried three times to prevent the Crucifixion? Or a letter from one of his many officers who were involved, or commenting on the new religious fervor among the Jews following their new Messiah. Remember, the Romans and the Jews all expected the Messiah to come with fire and sword, so any Messianic movement would have been noted as soon as it showed up. The first mention among the Romans that we see is in Josephus' time, decades later, and only refers to the movement itself. Come on, Mike, let's see your proof. Or let's see you admit that you are basing your faith on dogmatic assertions of others, for which there are no defensible arguments. What "arguments" that you are able to offer are those left over from your cult's Catholic roots, just as is what little of the Scriptures that you have. Yet if the Roman Catholic Church is right, then why aren't you Catholic? BTW, don't think nobody noticed the way you dodged the issue . . .if you really had a Scriptural argument that says I'm wrong and you're right, you would have led with that. You have your BELIEF, not PROOF. The only way the bleatings of Protestants will hold up is if they are allowed to claim that their particular definition of Christianity is the base line, by which all others are to be measured. Show me where in the Scriptures that ANY Protestant church, preacher or cultist is given that authority . . .then tell me which one. The Scriptures don't say "One Lord, one thousand or so contradictory faiths, some baptisms," and I notice also that you are pretty unwilling to be specific about just which of those thousand Protestant denominations you belong to. Then we will hold your cult's doctrines to the same scrutiny and standards to which you are holding mine. You say that I am wrong, yet can't provide any proof of your assertions. That's a case that won't hold up in court. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
solopilot I got news for you, Mike, ALL of Christianity qualifies as "cultism" -- just ask any Jew. You’re in luck, I’m “any Jew” and I’m here. Although, I call Christianity many things, a cult is not one of them. "Main Entry: cult 1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents" Any religion, including my own, could fit within that definition. It is subjective to determine which religion is “unorthodox or spurious”. I have found on FACTNET that a much better question to ask is “Is it a destructive cult?” The home page of FACTNET provides a good definition of that. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.29 |
Solopilot, You're equivocating on a word. Yes, taken in that definition of any 3. But you know exactly what we're talking about. It's in relation to Christianity. The link I provided might help you: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09.html Without going into a whole dialog on essentials take a look at: http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/outlines/essentials.html Don't pretend to know protestantism simply because you don't. Otherwise you would know that many protestant church do NOT accept baptism as necesary for salvation. It is a necesary act of obedience after salvation. Otherwise it would be clasified as a work, something that is meritorious toward your salvation. You are forgiven of your sins but Paul made it clear Romans 6:1 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forgave Paul and he perscuted and had Christians killed. You simply don't know as much about Protestantism as you think. What views of Christ do we distort? Seeing you have a hard time seeing our views go back to early church fathers as close as 100 AD and based on biblical text. However Mormonism appeared in the 1820s and supposed relevelations have no substantiation whatsoever. There is no archeological evidence to support any of the people mentioned in the Book of Mormons. They even started their own archeological study and cancelled it for lack of evidence. The absurditities of animals claimed to have existed in the lands they supposedly lived is not supported by any scholar outside of Mormonism. No archeological dig depends on any information from the BOM as they do the Bible. Cornelius Tacitus (born A.D. 52-54) - A Roman historian, in A.D. 112, Governor of Asia, son in law of Julius Agricola, who was Governor of Britain A.D. 80-84. Writting of the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome: "But not all the relief that could come from man....availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite of tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius...." Tacitus has a further reference to Christianity in a fragment of his "Histories", dealing with the burning of Jerusalem Temple in A.D. 70, preserved by Sulpicius Severus. Lucian of Samosata - A satirist of the second century, who spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: "the man who was crucified in Palestine because He introduced this new cult into the world....Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist Himself and living under His Laws." Lucian also mentions the Christians several times in other writings. There are tons more that speak of Jesus existence even in Jewish writings. They don't speak of him in very good terms but they certainly can't deny he existed. Quite frankly you deny your own teachings to deny that he did. Makes me wonder what you really know about Mormnism at all. You also know nothing about manuscript evidence that were not even provided by any Catholics whatsoever. So your arguments that our beliefs come from something Catholic conjured up again shows your lack of knowledge of the Christian faith and it's history. As far as scriptural arguments, arguments against which part? You say you don't believe man can become God but yet your own prophets say that as I shown. You must be talking about something else and I'll be more than happy to address it if you knew Mormon doctrine at all. The scriptures is the authority from which we base it on. Not one man. It's based on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets which were affirmed by prophecies, signs, and wonders. Are you saying you deny the new testament? Again you're don't know Mormon docrtine. We believe in one Lord, one faith, one baptism. I don't know where you get this thosand or so contradictory faiths mess from and about some baptisms. Have you ever heard a man by the name of Simon Greenleaf. But he wrote the book called " A Treatise on the Law of Evidence" which is used in many schools of law. He was challenged to examine the Christian faith and did and found it would hold up in a court of law. http://michaelnewdow.com/SimonGreenleaf.htm You come of as though you are Mormon but don't seem to know what you claim to. You certainly don't know anything about protestantism as you claim either. M or Michael | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.29 |
On Mormon Doctrine http://www.watchman.org/profile/ldspro.htm The Reliability of the Bible http://www.watchman.org/lds/reliabilitybiblelds.htm Part of an excerpt from it: "At the outset, we note that it is curious why Mormons attack the Bible. The LDS church even gives free Bibles away through expensive TV advertising. In fact the eighth of the LDS “Articles of Faith” states: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly...” Perhaps Shirts is trying to prove that the founder of the LDS church, Joseph Smith, Jr., was right when he claimed that “there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book.”[1] " So to deny the Bible is to deny your own faith. So are you Mormon, Mormon and don't know doctrine as much as you think, or someone else posing as Mormon? M or Michael | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.29 |
A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible. Sociologically they are a cult in that: Mind Control in the Mormon Church http://mormonconspiracy.com/mind-control.html LIFE AFTER MORMONISM and THE DOUBLE-BIND http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/index.htm Mormon Mind Control Control of Information The Mormon missionaries’ training cassette instructs them not to mention, at the outset of conversations, the differences between Mormon and Catholic beliefs, but rather to show that they are the same. Cults keep a person very busy reading the Bible, attending frequent worship services, and going from door to door, all so that the person becomes very tired and does not have time to think and evaluate his situation. For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses have five hours of meetings every week, plus many hours of preparation for such meetings and for preaching from door to door. That’s a lot of indoctrinating! The amount of time dedicated to the cult leaves little time to get other information. Mormons feel pressured to participate in many services, which are known as callings. Being tired and busy all the time keeps the person isolated from people who are not part of the cult. As a result, a person’s way of thinking is gradually changed and controlled through the lack of information. Thought Control Cults pressure their members to be perfect. They see themselves as heroes of the faith. They alone follow the Bible. "We keep the Sabbath" (Seventh Day Adventists say). "We reject blood transfusions and we are not of the world because we don’t vote" (Jehovah’s Witnesses). "We have a true prophet like the first Christians did" (Mormons and Light of the World). "We speak in tongues and receive direct revelations" (Pentecostals). "Here, Jehovah comes down from Heaven" (Spiritualists). They have to appeal to some privilege in order to justify their existence. Why not start another religion if the rest are evil or if something better can be offered? Environment and Behaviour Control Each cult tries to control the person’s environment, especially the way he or she dresses and eats. Mormon missionaries dress alike: white shirt, black tie, and a black backpack. Moustaches and beards are not permitted. Jehovah’s Witnesses are always found to be clean cut, never with beards. Some Pentecostals do not permit women to wear pants, cut their hair, or at times wear make-up. Women from the Church of La Luz del Mundo wear long dresses. Furthermore, one’s diet is controlled. Mormons are forbidden to drink tea, coffee or anything that has caffeine or alcohol. Seven Day Adventists are forbidden to eat clams and pork. Jehovah’s Witnesses are forbidden to eat foods that contain blood. Members of the Iglesia Patriarcal de Elia (trinitarian-marian spiritualists) are forbidden to eat pork or drink alcohol. Pentecostals prohibit alcohol. All of them prohibit tobacco. While in some cases they are right, members abstain not because of personal choice, but because they are afraid of being expelled or at least isolated from their brethren. Control of Feelings Guilt and fear encourage conformity to cult rules. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons threaten their members with expulsion. Members of the cult are forbidden to associate with a fellow member who has been expelled. Fear of losing family, work, and friends keeps a person in, even if he doesn’t believe in the cult’s teachings. One Mormon bishop commented that, even though he does not believe in their doctrines, he remains a Mormon because he doesn’t want to lose his job. Speaking of those who criticize and try to correct the leaders of the church, the president of the Mormons, David O McKay said "Their souls have become embittered, their minds distorted, their judgements inaccurate, and their spirits depressed". In almost all cults there is confession of sins. But it is not like our Sacrament of Reconciliation, in which one can chose to remain anonymous. Cult members make their confessions publicly, usually in the presence of more than one person. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons confess in front of a three to five member committee, whereas in some evangelical fundamentalist cults sins are revealed to the entire congregation. At first, one feels very positive and experiences a lot of love (which in fact is false, or at least superficial). There are promises of an earthly paradise (Jehovah’s), peace in the world, or a special place in heaven. Through visits, attention, and sometimes even gifts, one feels overwhelmed with so much kindness. This makes a person lower his defences.Despite the fact that each cult promotes negative feelings, leaders know that nobody should experience only negative feelings. Therefore, many cultish groups makes sure that their members have spiritual experiences such as visions (Pentecostals and Spiritualists), or inner sensations of God (Pentecostals, Mormons: burning in the bosom). We are not saying that the emotions one experiences in the present of God are false, but rather that they can be artificially induced. We see this in sports, where players psyche themselves up before a game. In some cults [La Iglesia Luz del Mundo], it is common to see the entire congregation, beginning with the preacher, fall to their knees and begin to scream and cry out in great wailings. It is not coincidental that some leaders weep while praying or explaining a vision of Jesus. If you don't think Mormonism uses Mind Control techniques, try leaving. You won't, because to do so would set your whole family if they are Mormon against you. M or Michael M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) New member Username: solopilot Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
No, Mike, it's in relation to your interpretation of what Christianity is. Please answer the following questions: What church do you belong to? Does that church practice baptism, and if so, were you baptised into that church? Were you baptised into a different church, and if so, does your church accept that baptism as valid? Which version of the Bible does your church consider to be the most accurate, complete and inerrant? I know far more about Protestantism than I really wish to, having been a Protestant until I was an adult. I have attended services in over 100 Protestant denominations, from Episcopal (Anglican) and Lutheran to Evangelical to Baptist (several diffent types) to Methodist to Presbyterian to you-name-it. Some of my best friends over the years have been Protestant ministers, and many times we discussed the differences between various Christian doctrines. I eventually found the Mormons, and discovered that Mormon doctrine makes more sense than any other Christian doctrines. Many more things are explained. I find it kind of funny that you say that Mormonism is invalid because it appeared after Chirst, then use Tacitus as proof, though he "appeared" after Christ as well. Lucian is even farther removed from actual knowledge of Christ. "Our views go back as far as AD 100 . . ." Mike, how old are you? 100 years is a VERY long time, more than enough for some major changes to find their way into things. Just thing about some of the things you saw, and how those things are reported now. "No archeological dig depends on any information from the BOM as they do the Bible." I'm not sure just how you mean this. Do you mean that the Book of Mormon is not used to plot a location, or that absolutely no information from the Book of Mormon is ever used in relation to a dig? In the first case, you are generally correct, in the second, you are just plain wrong, but I'm curious how I should parse this statement. Which animals are you talking about, which are proven never to have existed here? Those unicorns out of the Bible, perhaps? There are over 1000 separate Protestant faiths (various Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc.), each with its own unique doctrines and practices. Many don't even accept others of their own group as being Christian (for instance, some Baptists consider some other Baptist denominations to be cults). Some practice baptism, some don't, and some use forms other than that demonstrated by the Savior. Contrast that to a single set of doctrines and practices followed by 13,000,000 people using over 100 languages around the world. I can walk into any LDS chapel in the world and get the same lessons that I would in any other. Now, on to your cut-and-paste. Protestant missionaries (In predominantly Catholic areas) also don't mention the differences between their beliefs and Catholicism, at least the few that I've ever met didn't. Is this evil? Nope. The first thing that is done in ANY relationship is to find COMMON GROUND. Then you go on to show the differences and why what you have is better. It doesn't matter if you are a missionary, a guy on a first date, or someone demonstrating computers as Wal-Mart. In nearly 30 years since finding the Church, NOT ONCE have I been made "tired and busy all the time" by Church callings. In fact, the only one in my ward who could be considered such is the Bishop, who has meetings pretty much every night but Mondays (and some of them too). I'm not pressured to be perfect, I'm told to always do my best, and that perfection is unattainable. I know that most Protestant cults preach the same thing. And Mike, this may come as a shock to you, but JESUS started another religion because "something better can be offered." Of course Mormon missionaries dress alike -- kind of. So do business executives, painters, fast-food workers, cops, airline pilots, soldiers, the Salvation Army, high school marching bands and most Protestant preachers. In nearly every case, the type of clothing is to project an image. How would you feel if you saw the pilot of your plane dressed like a ditch-digger, and the cabin attendants looked like street urchins? Mormons don't use drugs. That includes alcohol and tobacco. If you consider this to be "thought control," then maybe I would rather not go to a meeting at your church . . .oh, BTW, the part about caffeine is a lie. Many Baptist cults also prohibit alcohol, and in fact managed to get whole counties in the Bible Belt to ban booze. Funny that here in Utah, where the predominant religion specifically prohibits alcohol, the only time it's been banned was during Prohibition. Okay, Mike, what church do you belong to which won't throw out a member who is immoral, disruptive, or loudly espouses doctrines other than those of the leadership? "One Baptist minister commented that, even though he doesn't believe in their doctrines, he remains a Baptist because he doesn't want to lose his job." This is more likely to be true, in more cases, than the anonymous comment about a Mormon bishop, who isn't paid a penny for his being Bishop, but DOES spend up to 80 hours each week doing things that go with the calling. Uh . . .Mormons confess most sins to the Bishop. That's one man, not a committee. The ONLY time that confession is made to a committee is when there is a voluntary hearing to deal with serious sin, such as adultery. This appearance is 100% voluntary, and generally because of the sinner's own request. For instance, if someone is in danger of being excommunicated due to his actions, he may meet with the Bishopric to explain and help him find the appropriate action to take. BTW, what happens in such a hearing is confidential, not discussed with others. Uh . . .Mike . . .? I have friends who did leave. The only people who have suggested that I should turn my back on them is people like you. Even when someone is excommunicated, that is not seen as the end, but only as the first step in the process of returning to full fellowship in the Church. Sometimes someone has been disfellowshipped or excommunicated and the only people in the ward who know it are the Bishopric and the president of either the Priesthood quorum (for a man) of the Relief Society (for a woman). One of my closest friends stood up and bore her testimony of how she was grateful for the Atonement, and that now she could again partake of the Sacrament, after 6 months of being disfellowshipped for a sin that she had committed. If she hadn't said anything, none of us would have ever known that she had done anything wrong. The really funny thing is that the Protestant cult which I had been a member of shunned me after I said that I was going to be baptised as a Latter-day Saint. My own next-door neighbor wouldn't talk to me, and when the neighborhood planned the Christmas celebration, not only was I excluded but they made it a point to make sure I knew that every other house in the block was getting carolers, but not mine. The pastor did, however, ask if I was still going to let the youth group borrow my truck and trailer for their snow trip! No, Mike, the only evil doctrines and practices that I've seen among Christians came from the Protestant cults. And next time, do your OWN research, instead of just copying someone else's. I do you the honor of actually answering your allegations, the least that you can do is make them yourself. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.43.195.13 |
[quote]What church do you belong to? [/quote] If by that you mean which body of believers currently do I meet with it's Baptist. I was once in a Methodist. But the church is a body of believers centered around Christ. [quote]Does that church practice baptism, and if so, were you baptised into that church? [/quote] yes, it practices baptism but not as a requirement for salvation. My baptism is in Christ, not a church or organization. [quote]Were you baptised into a different church, and if so, does your church accept that baptism as valid? [/quote] I was baptised at the Methodist church and the Baptist church accepted my baptism because it was based on faith according to scripture. [quote]Which version of the Bible does your church consider to be the most accurate, complete and inerrant? [/quote] Whether Methodist, Baptist, and others don't subscribe to KJV only. We are free to use any and all. In fact I use software that I can view all versions including the original Greek. I also have access to Greek manuscripts which were not available to those who translated the KJV. I was simply stating that Mormonism came 1800 years after Christianity, so Christianity is already historically set. So the standard of what Christianity teaches is also set. So you can't set Mormonism as the standard test of orthodoxy. Why is it no one counterfits Mormonism? No one counterfits a gum wrapper. Instead they counterfit the real thing. Which has been done of Christianity since it's beginnings. But it still stands as Christ himself said "the gates of hell will not prevail against it". There you go, making me do something I do not do. Saying that the only people that suggest that you should turn your back on people is people like me. You're judging something you do not know. Our church nor any other protestant church I've been in subscribes to your allegations whatsoever. But that doesn't mean some don't. Great Grace church is one filled with corrupt leaders which taught that as you can read on the boards here. I'll be glad to if you agree to stop making malicious comments about my person of which you know nothing about and apologize. I may attack doctrine and beliefes but I try to refrain from attacking a person. If I did I do apologize. The least you could do is do the same. Then you could back your statements about what evil doctrines and practices are in protestant churches. I probably don't have the amount of time on my hands as you so I can't respond as much. I have to work on my web site, our churches web site and work with other things within our churches and the other local churches. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) New member Username: solopilot Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
I understand what you are saying about being historically set. However, the specific form of Christianity to which you adhere is not really that much older than Mormonism, if it is at all (depends on which sect you belong to). Protestant doctrines are constantly evolving, sometimes rapidly and sometimes over a span of decades. As far as judging you, no, I am judging Protestantism. Each of us is an individual, holding to his or her own degree to whatever faith we consider valid. I am, however, reacting to what you have said (or repeated), which are attacks on my own religious beliefs, and therefore of me and other Latter-day Saints. The materials which you used ranged from out-of-context quotes to outright falsehood, all intended to make the reader believe something which is not actually true. The fact that you repeat them says that either you don't know as much about Mormonism as you think or that you are not as honest as you want to believe that you are. I prefer to think the former, of course. BTW, there are several dozen "counterfeit" Mormon churches, to use your phrase (I would just say that they aren't associated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and leave it at that). Most, but not all, are involved with polygamy. The fact is that the only people who have ever shunned me were Protestants, who even encouraged my family to lock me out of my own home, claiming that I would sign it over to the Church. I was treated atrociously by one small group, I don't hold all Protestants to the same low standard, but when you told me to "leave and see what they do," you were directly attacking ME as someone who would do that kind of thing to others who leave the Church. _I_ am the "they" in this case. My purpose is attacking you personally was to get you to respond personally -- to actually discuss this with me, rather than just cut-and-pasting long passages from others. I am sorry that this was necessary, and I hope that you understand that it was not intended to cause you harm. I am sorry if it did. Evil doctrines and practices, backed up: Protestant churches in the South: Supported, sponsored slavery, lynch mobs and the Ku Klux Klan. Protestant churches in Ohio, Illinois, Missouri: incited the rape, murder, theft, mutilation of Mormons, arson of Mormons' homes. Protestants in those areas: coerced (through perjury) Missouri governor Liliburn Boggs to issue an order that all Mormons be exterminated; ordered Alexander Doniphan (militia commander) to assassinate Joseph Smith; incited mob violence against Mormons; attempted to force Joseph Smith and others to swallow poison; formed a mob to attack the Carthage Jail, resulting in the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. The violence continued until the Mormons were forced to leave city after city, eventually leaving the United States for what was then Mexican territory -- then the Protestants demanded that Mormon men be drafted to fight in the Mexican-American War, thus leaving our emigrants on the plains without the young men needed to protect and move the thousands of people who had fled Nauvoo. I would also add that I consider it evil to tell lies about other people's churches, which is a Protestant trait more than most other folks' (I've never seen an anti-Mormon pamphlet from Catholics). It is one thing to be mistaken or fail to understand, something entirely different to spread falsehood for profit, which is what most of the people you get your material from are doing. I can go into nearly any mall in the country and find a "Christian" bookstore, run by Protestants. It will have several shelves of books condemning other religions, and I can spend over $1100 buying anti-Mormon books, pamphlets, audio and video materials, and only buy one of each. I can go into Protestant churches and see movies being presented which lie about my church. I can visit Temple Square for religious meetings and be confronted by Protestants who are screaming obscenities at women and children or fondling women's undergarments and making lewd comments, have my friends be the target of racist slurs, and watch Protestants throw scriptures on the ground and stomp on them, all in an attempt to incite hatred and violence. Protestant churches spend thousands of dollars each year to send these people to try to disrupt our conferences, Tabernacle Choir concerts, special events, and even just our day-to-day greeting of visitors. I was once stopped at a traffic light in California, and a man used a BULLHORN to scream lies at me from two cars back in the next lane. As he passed me by, I saw that he had a "Clergy" sign in his window (used for parking at some hospitals). Protestants have incited violence against Mormon missionaries even in recent years, at the open guidance of their pastors. It's one thing to think that you are closer to true Christianity, it another thing to use these tactics to "prove" it. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Junior Member Username: overseas Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
True Christians have to allow freedom of faith and beliefs. Only social effects of cults have to be punished by law (e.g. kidnapping, misinforming), not wrong theology. That is, if one cult openly teaches crap and forces nobody and people adhere by free will, legally it is ok. I am a Protestant for which this label means a bit more than nothing. I do not care to defend protestants so you Solopilot waste your time. All I care is that you twist Scripture and all your studies are driven by elders (or you are an elder). Go home and study Bible without Mormon guiding literature and come back to this site in 2 months. You should note I did not sent you to a Protestant church ! And that is because I was not saved by a denomination. I can worship God at least in 3-4 denominations, which proves I do not stick to 'super elected body' status, but you would be lost if you would be separated by your Mormon elders, rules and ierarchy. You only have one chance to know God, because you (still) have the Bible. Think and study for yourself ! By the way, can Solopilot tell me why Smithsonian Institute denied Mormon claims that the Institute confirmed archeological proofs for the Book of Mormon ? | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Junior Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
The 11th Article of Faith says: "We claim the privilege of worshipping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and all all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may." The first non-Mormon churches built in Salt Lake City stand on land which we gave them. Mormon labor (including volunteers) helped build them, and sometimes rebuild them after disaster. You claim that we "twist Scripture." What proof do you have that your interpretation of Scripture is the accurate one? I studied the Bible without Mormon help for the first 20 years of my life. Yes, you can worship in any of the thousand-plus Protestant cults, so long as you don't cross up just which set of "true Christian" doctrines are in effect there. You can also come worship with us, any time you like. Have you ever done so? Probably not. Please provide proof that any official "Mormon claims" have ever been made that the Smithsonian Institution confirmed archaeological proofs of the Book of Mormon. BTW, the Smithsonian Institution also said that one particular ancient city was only fable, until the ruins were found and proven to be those of Troy. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Junior Member Username: overseas Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
First, you note that I agree that no believer should be legally persecuted for his theology. And I got that from the Bible. And you seem to agree with that. And can you imagine I could figure that without being a Mormon ? So we two have at least one example where we agree on the true meaning of Scriptures (huh... me=a pagan=non Mormon). Looks like you accept only what is in favour of Mormonism and you are not interested in absolute truth. Second, you did not present us the results of your 20 years studies before going for Mormons. I would be interested. Third, your biggest twist of Scripture is allowing something else (Mormon books) with greater authority. And also you promote a subtle uncertainty on the innerance of the Bible in your posts. That is a different topic, but try to apply the same inerrance criteria to Mormon books, they are far away as reliability. Fourth, I will never worship with you guys because: YOU TEACH THAT JESUS IS BROTHER OF SATAN ! But when Mormons are not capable of finding at least one other denomination quite similar to agree with, they prove the cult syndrom of 'only elected body'. Stay tuned, I will come back with the Smithsonian story... Meanwhile, search for 'Messenger and Advocate', dated February 1835, where Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith's cousin and confidant, gives a different account of the "first vision". That is Mormon beginnings are full of controversy and contradictions. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Junior Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
First, let me note that, to me, you are Christian (that is, you are a follower of Christ), not a pagan. We see the Church as offering MORE of Christianity, we don't deny that non-Mormons are Christian. Interestingly, when I was born, the RCC doctrine held that the Bible was only an authority and could only be accepted when held in Catholic hands. The result of my 20 years of being a Protestant is that I became a Mormon! ;) During the first 20 years of my life, I attended a number of different churches, most of those from the age of 15 - 20. The "Grace Baptist" in one town held somewhat different doctrines than the "Grace Baptist" just across the county line. There was less difference between Baptist and Assembly of God than between one Baptist and another, only a mile apart. Sect after sect, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, Evangelical, I've lost track, but no two alike, and the preachers of each willing to explain that the others were Christian, but "this" one held closer to true Christianity. They agreed on major doctrines, and most of them match Mormon doctrines as well, but there were a lot of unanswered questions, contradictions and so on. In many ways, I went through the same confusion that Joseph Smith did, with "some saying 'Lo here,' and others 'Lo there!'" For a while, I attended a congregation which met in a park, whose pastor taught at a religious college / seminary during the week, and I took a number of classes there. I attended courses taught by a number of teachers of seminaries and from religious institutes. Many of my classmates went on to become preachers and chaplains. When I announced that I had realized that the Book of Mormon was true, the pastor of the congregation who which I and my family belonged told my family that I needed to be thrown out of the house, before I could "sign it over to the Mormons." They were told not to talk to me. One of my neighbors worked with a prominent anti-Mormon of the time, and arranged a meeting between us. He started off by saying something which I had already learned was not true, from a class in a Protestant religious college, and from there it didn't get any better. One of the things that I learned in school was the origin of the Bible. This was during the period when the KJV was the only English-language version in use in Protestantism, and one guest speaker was involved in the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls. He pointed out the differences between some of the books which were both in the Bible and in the Qumran collection, some pretty serious differences. He said that the Scrolls were a closer copy to the original manuscripts than were the manuscripts used by the KJV translators. When he was asked if he still read the KJV, he said yes, but he knew of a more accurate translation (I think he meant the NIV) which was soon to be published. Yes, that meant that he did not believe that the Bible was complete or 100% accurate, but "it teaches the essential doctrines of Christianity, so is valuable even if it's not a perfect book." That's exactly what the Church teaches. Do you believe that the Bible is perfect? What is your proof of this belief? Tell me, is there anything which God did not create? Anyone who is not the child of God? If you answered yes, then how can there be any understanding other than Satan being a child of God, just as you and I are? Our belief is that we all lived in a premortal state, with our Heavenly Father. In order to progress, it was necessary for us to come to a mortal life, and Lucifer's plan was that we would come but without the "free agency" which lets us make our own choices. We would be unable to violate the word of God. Jesus' plan was that we would come here, but forget our earlier life in Heaven, thus to have the free choice of how we would live. We would have to walk by faith (or without it), thus to progress -- one way or another. Because we would sin, a Savior would be given to us to satisfy God's law -- Jesus would be that Savior, because He loves us so much. Two-thirds of us followed Jesus, the other third followed Lucifer, and were eventually cast out of the presence of our Father. By your definition, early Christianity was a cult, because there wasn't "at least one other denomination quite similar" . . .however, as I have shown elsewhere, using FACTNet's list of what makes a church a "cult," Mormonism doesn't qualify. If you want to add criteria, then you might as well say "any church I want to call a cult is a cult." While you are studying the Smithsonian, also look into Smithsonian statements that Troy did not exist (in response to news stories that von Schliemann was looking for the city's ruins), and bring back a list of just how many times they have used the Bible as an historical reference to prove anything. Did you look at Acts, where there are directly contradictory accounts of Saul's vision? Or the differing accounts of various events in the Four Gospels? As a public speaker, I know that I describe events differently for different audiences, based on what they are most likely to be interested in. If I am talking to a women's group, I might mention aesthetics more than if I am in front of a bunch of airline pilots, who will be more interested in technical aspects. This is more evident when I am recalling things from an earlier time. Just talking about things I've experienced reminds me of details that I had forgotten, especially if I am already trying to find the most interesting aspects of an event. The accounts of the First Vision aren't contradictory, they are just more centered on one thing or another, or different phraseology is used. Between nine retellings of events which took place between 10 and 25 years before, if they had all been the same, then this would be a better indicator of falsehood. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Member Username: overseas Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 82.76.248.249 |
Solopilot, I buy your story, but that does not make Mormonism right. I mean I know that many churches pretend to be better than others, families wrong when they reject their members for faith reasons, there are difficulties about Bible proofs and inerrancy (but this is another debate which requires much study and time). But Christians on this site come and debate their worries, doubts and recognise Bible difficulties, while you present us a shiny/ inerrant/ infaillible Mormonism that is spotless. For everybody, you can search for the record of Dr. Walter Martin that once some years ago went straight to the Mormon State and had a big public debate of Bible Christianity against Mormonism; the Prophet (i.e. the leader) did not do the talking for Mormons, but their missionaries did. And two of those missionaries left Mormonism. Angels (and Satan) are different by people. And Bible shows Jesus existed bfore any creation so He is God. I'll add to definition of cult: any organisation that pretends it is perfect is a cult (i.e. Mormonism). Credibility of Smithsonian is not the issue here. the issue is that Mormons tried to use Smithsonian credibility for them, and when they were rejected they started to attack Smithsonian. For different accounts of Josep Smith 'revelation' versus Bible 'different accounts'. NOW THIS IS A GOOD ONE PLEASE READ: can you please tell us if you have all these different stories in the Book of Mormon as we do with the Bible ? My guess is not. So we Christians hold these parallel accounts public in the Bible (and there are answers for differences, but this is not the place), while Mormons have different accounts told by J. Smith but only one in their official book, because they only hold to one as being true. Solopilot, you did not refute the existence of the second account, then why did Mormons not include it in your 'canon', is it not from same source ? take a good thinking on that. Now I call this an end and probably not post here any more. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Overseas, you can't find a single instance of my claiming that Mormonism is inerrant or infallible. However, to use "Dr" Walter Martin as your source of "truth" is to show that you don't know anything about Wally. I remember in California when Wally was getting young men to come to his speeches and pretend to be missionaries. I knew one of the fakes (when I last heard, he was a paid preacher somewhere). Ah, so since I've proven that Mormonism doesn't fit the definition of a cult, you will change the definition to suit your personal prejudices . . .then flee on the heels of your "success." So typical of anti-Mormons. But then, you have Wally as your example. The funny thing about the Smithsonian statement (which, BTW, as been retracted and rewritten) is that it was ANTI-MORMONS who wrote the Smithsonian to ask if the Institution had ever used the Book of Mormon as a reference, not Latter-day Saints. Don't "guess" about the Book of Mormon. Read it for yourself. Don't let other people tell you what to think, learn to do your own research. I wish I had the slightest idea what the heck you are talking about in your last paragraph. But then, I wish that YOU did, too. That's the problem with parrotting . . . | ||
| overseas (overseas) Member Username: overseas Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
NO, NO, NO, you have to answer me. I had a hunch you will go around that point. But worst, you have to answer yourself. The "parroting" mockery, coming from you...I will not be offended. This is something original, I challenge you to show me anywhere that the question detailed below was discussed. Here Mr. Mormon is my question: - you recognise existence of different accounts for the 'first vision' of Joseph Smith - I call that a proof that Mormons lied and had contradictory stories about the same event - you don't consider that a lie but reasonable, and found a parallel with the Bible (synoptic gospels, Paul's conversion) - no I find a big difference between Mormon and Bible cases: the Bible shows the various accounts of same event, I mean you know about them because you found them in the Bible, you did not have to search ancient literature to find that Paul once said something slightly different about his conversion; this proves Christians do not hide anything, but are honest with the difficulties of the Bible or with Bible's 'hard bones' - does the Book of Mormon only have one account of the 'first vision' ? why does it not show all accounts if all of them are true ? is it not because your Mormon forefathers picked only one official version and considered the other one as contradicting the official version ? did the Mormon church teach you about these different accounts or you found out from anti-Mormonbs for the first time and why ? you compared this Mormon situation with the Bible so you have to explain now why the situations do not match entirely, otherwise your argument is not valid. If you recognise that Mormonism is not inerrant and inffailible (which contradicts several statements of the Mormons some years ago about them being the only true church and a restoration of Christianity), then you have no logic to ask someone to become a Mormon. And my question is: if Mormons are not inffailible and inerrant, do you know an absolute Authority in this universe that is inerrant and inffailible ? | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 62 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Overseas: Thank you for rephrasing. Yes, there were several different accounts of the First Vision, given over several years to different audiences whose interests would be different. I would be more suspicious if the accounts were exactly the same, or if each time significantly more information were given. The accounts are only "contradictory" on details which a 14-year-old farmboy could not really be expected to have a perfect memory of when retelling 20 years later. When something this wondrous happens, you don't remember it all as if it were a movie script -- you remember some parts all the time, but others only when they are important to remember, and you often remember things the wrong way. If you don't believe me, go sit in court sometime and listen to the sworn testimony there. The contradictions aren't always because of intent but usually are because memory is subjective. Paul didn't say anything SLIGHTLY different, he contradicts himself COMPLETELY on an important point. In one verse, he says that those who where with him heard the voice but saw no man, in another he says that they saw the light but heard no voice. I learned about the different accounts of the First Vision in Church classes. We took all nine of the published accounts and compared them not only with each other, but with the meanings of the words back then (the English language is constantly evolving). They are a lot closer to each other than are Paul's accounts of his own first vision. The Book of Mormon itself doesn't have ANY account of the First Vision, which took place about 1400 years later. The account which is in the "foreword" is considered the most complete. Also in the foreword to the Book of Mormon is the testimony of the "Three Witnesses" that they had seen and touched the gold plates. Each of those three later left the Church, yet NOT ONE ever recanted that testimony. All three were respected members of their community, and their testimony led to ridicule for the rest of their lives. Your final assertion fails to make the "if-then" connection. Christ's church has never been inerrant and infallible, not even in the Apostolic era. Christianity restored could be no better than the original. If infallibility is the standard by which you judge the true church, you are in for a lifetime of disappointment, especially when you look at the backgrounds of some of the anti-Mormons whose word you take without question. Of course, you would know more about Mormonism if you would actually read the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. It would also help if you attended our services on some Sunday. As long as you are polite, you are not only welcome but invited to ask all of the questions you like of the missionaries or of other members. I would suggest that you hold your questions through Sunday School, however, because you may get some of the answers there, or come up with entirely different questions. That's how I started. I went to one of the chapels and said "Tell me about your church," and dragged out some anti-Mormon literature. They talked to me, explained the history of the Church, the doctrines, and invited me back the next week, when I could bring more literature for them to discuss. This, BTW, was during the heyday of Walter R. Martin, who you take as the authority on the Church. His literature came with me the next week, and was promptly shown to be in error in a number of ways that I had already seen for myself in just two visits. So, if you aren't afraid to see for yourself, go see for yourself. If you aren't afraid to find out that you have been wrong, read for yourself. If you aren't afraid of what God will tell you, then pray before you read the Book of Mormon, and pray again after you have. Faith untried is faith unworthy. Don't be like those who shout "YES" when their preachers demand "Do you BELIEVE?" This is not a yes or no question, the only valid response for a rational person is "In WHAT???" If you are certain that your version of Christianity is more true than mine, then surely you have nothing to fear from coming to see what mine has to say. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Intermediate Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 148 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.27 |
Quote:Paul didn't say anything SLIGHTLY different, he contradicts himself COMPLETELY on an important point. In one verse, he says that those who where with him heard the voice but saw no man, in another he says that they saw the light but heard no voice. Response: This is where knowing Greek comes in, which I don't know that much myself. Only in that words have different meanings based on context. Hearing can me perceiving and audible sound at all or understanding. Here is a note: Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament But they heard not the voice (thn de pwnhn ouk hkousan). The accusative here may be used rather than the genitive as in verse Mark 7 to indicate that those with Paul did not understand what they heard (Mark 9:7) just as they beheld the light (Mark 22:9), but did not see Jesus (Mark 9:7). The difference in cases allows this distinction, though it is not always observed as just noticed about Mark 22:14; Mark 26:14. The verb akouw is used in the sense of understand (Mark 4:33; 1 Corinthians 14:2). It is one of the evidences of the genuineness of this report of Paul's speech that Luke did not try to smooth out apparent discrepancies in details between the words of Paul and his own record already in ch. 9. I just wanted to interject that sometimes we make an assumption on a text without fully understanding it. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
. . .so you are agreeing with me, that the verses could have been translated more accurately . . ? | ||
| overseas (overseas) Intermediate Member Username: overseas Post Number: 115 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
Thanks Michael, I know Robertson is a good source for Greek. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Intermediate Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.11 |
I just addressed the fact you were using it to say Paul contradicted himself so it's okay if the vision contradicted itself. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Mike: The issue is not whether the accounts are wrong, the issue is whether there is reason to condemn me for my belief that the Bible is the word of God, so far as it is translated correctly, and the implication that some errors DID in fact occur. Your post indicates that you believe the same thing, though you apparently don't think of it as such. "Translation," BTW includes not only the process of going from one language to another but also going from one generation to another (that is, each time that it was retold and copied). | ||
| overseas (overseas) Intermediate Member Username: overseas Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
Michael, it is me being lazy. When I said "Paul once said something slightly different about his conversion" I did not mean that there is contradiction there or that contradiction is OK, but that Paul described different things, not same thing in two contradictory manners. I just wanted to make my point quickly without entering into the details which you clarified better anyway. My point was 'genuiness' of Scripture as Robertson puts it. Please let me know if I am clear. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.217 |
Do not be concerned about people who hate. Hate is not a Christian attitude. As we seek the will of God (not ours, God's) his spirit in us will DO THE WORK. Pray for those who spitefully abuse you. God will hear your prayer. God works miracles constantly. Daily miracles occur in my life. I bought my computer two weeks ago. I got online last Wesnesday. I emailed my mother and asked for my aunt's email address. I had not been in touch with her for almost five years. My aunt was diagnosed with cancer six years ago. She is an exceptional human being. Not perfect but always loving und nonjudgmental. The doctors gave her five years. I mailed her an email on Thursday. My mother called me yesterday and said that my aunt had slipped on the ice and was now in intensive care. She is brain-dead. This morning her children are going to allow the doctors to 'pull the plug'. As painful as it is to lose someone I love so much, and has shown her love to me always, I praise God for the miracle that Not Only was I allowed to email her, but her children held the phone to her ear so that I could tell her I love her. Our miracle is that she will not suffer the painful death of cancer. Not only that but my daughter who lives 150miles away just happened to be in my aunt's town yesterday and went on my behalf to hold my aunt's hand and tell her we love her. I praise God. No church. Just God and his Word, which is Christ Jesus. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 248 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
GC: I am sorry for your loss. Please accept my deepest condolences. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Intermediate Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.66.130.49 |
Quote:Paul didn't say anything SLIGHTLY different, he contradicts himself COMPLETELY on an important point. In one verse, he says that those who where with him heard the voice but saw no man, in another he says that they saw the light but heard no voice. Response: I don't want you to simply side-step my point that you make straw-men arguments to knock them down when in fact they were wrong in the first place. I demonstrated that you did. But you try to jump to another seperate argument altogether. It doesn't matter. I don't have the time to continue the conversation. I just didn't like the fact someone making it sound as if the Bible contradicted itself. Enjoy the conversation. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 251 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Mike: Yes or no: Is the Bible translated with 100% accuracy? This isn't a strawman. Either it is (in which case it contradicts itself) or it is not (in which case there are man-made errors). The whole point, though, is that the Bible DOESN'T HAVE TO be perfect to still be Scripture, and to teach us important things. We were given the Book of Mormon as an illumination of the Bible. As the subtitle says, it is another witness of Jesus Christ. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Intermediate Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 153 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.207 |
Solopilot, I will answer your question if you answer that your reference to Paul contradicting himself was an incorrect charge. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 257 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Mike: As I recall, Paul didn't write all of the Acts. Information was compiled. However, the answer that you are looking for is that no, I don't believe that PAUL contradicted himself, even if he DID write all of the Acts. I think that the error was added "downstream," either in an abridgement by a translator from one generation to another, or an error in judgement by a translator from one language to another. It matters less where the error came in than to see and admit that there was an error. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Intermediate Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.29 |
solopilot, This will probably be my last post for a while. I'm working on a lot of other things right now with church, home, work, everything. I do miss getting more involved but it takes lots of time. Luke is attributed to be the author of Acts. The first 3 verses or so tells about his purpose etc. What I don't subscribe to is what you're illuding to that someone purposely added it. No translation is perfect. But that doesn't also mean that the manuscripts are not trustworthy. So just like I did. I can go back to the original Greek and do some studying and find out that I may be pouring into a word an incorrect meaning. But a far cry from the Mormon prophets pronouncement against the Bible. I haven't ran into anything critical on serious Christian doctrine that was problematic enough in any case. It's not like you get a translation from a translation. The translations start from the manuscripts. So you don't get what you try to illude to that it gets corrupt down the line as it's passed on. With the discovery of the Qumran scrolls we have manuscripts dating back to at least 150BC on the old testament. We live in a great age of lots of tools at our disposal. So I don't have to just rely on any translation. Although each has it's merits. Anything translated into another language whether it's a song, the Bible, or the BOM is not going to capture everything. But thank God we can go back to the original Greek and learn a lot from it. But all of this is not to say I need a Book of Mormons to tell me anything about the Bible. I have lots of objections to it which I don't want to get started on that because I stated before I'm not going to be posting much if any. Catch you later and hope to talk again sometime in the near future. M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 264 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Mike: No, all that I'm alluding to is that there is an error. Where it came from is not important. It is there. It is not the only one. The 8th Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly." THIS is a pronouncement AGAINST the Bible? "Translation" means intergenerational copies, not just interlingual. You mention Qumran? That place where they found a lot of scrolls which aren't the same as any of the "original" manuscripts used in the Bible . . ? Take care, and I'll talk to you again. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Intermediate Member Username: overseas Post Number: 226 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
Q: The 8th Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly." THIS is a pronouncement AGAINST the Bible? Yes it is against the Bible. By ommission. You also believe there are other pieces of revelation that are more precise and authoritative than the Bible. Do you or am I wrong ? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.62 |
This is a very important site to open the eyes of those who are interested in the Mormon Church. Someone has devised a clever plan to get us so aggravated we will stop sharing our true experiences in dealings with the Mormon Church, an antichristain organization. Solopilot has one object here. And it is working for him. He is using tactics (very cleverly)to stop people from responding to this site. Antagonism, insults, argumentativeness, and all of this for one purpose. To get Christians off this site. Let us stop responding or reading his responses. Maybe he will be the one to go away. Shunning was used in former times to stop fools. This is the time to use it again.}} | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 275 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Overseas: I've lost track of who is who in here. Are you one of those who believes that the Bible is 100% accurate, inerrant and complete? If so, then yes, I can see how you would take that as a negative connotation. Do you use the KJV? The NIV? They do not agree on translation, so which one is the correct one and which the "false translation"? Which scholars do you trust more, the 1970's folks or the 1600's folks? If the KJV, then which of the eight versions do you hold to, and why that one instead of the others? If the NIV, let me remind you that in the 1830s (when the Articles of Faith were published) the only commonly-available English version was the KJV. GC: I don't know whether to feel honored that you think my "tactics" are "very clever" or feel slighted that YOU think so. My only "plan" is to provide accurate information to non-Mormons about the Church. I must admit -- and perhaps apologize -- for giving in to the overwhelming temptation to poke fun at you and others like you for the things that you say and are willing to believe. Yes, those of you who have closed minds are invited to stop reading what I say. Hide in your holes and spew forth filth and lies. The rest of you, those who want FACTS, let's keep talking. I believe that if you know the facts, you will make the same decision and choice that I did -- but even if you don't, if you make up your own mind ON FACT and you disagree with me, that's fine with me. I have nothing to gain by changing anyone's mind, or if you join the Church, except knowing that I've fulfilled the promise that I think we all gave each other, to do what I could to help you get back to heaven. The rest is up to you, believe it or don't believe it. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
A mormon heaven where men are to become gods and women are treated as cattle is not really heaven but just a clever illusion of a narcissist's heaven. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.157 |
Only God could carry the burden which is man! How anyone could claim to have studied for the Protestant ministry and make the claims sp makes just shows the power of Satan. He needs to walk in Jesus' shoes. Everything I have read that he writes is about self. The King James Version of the Bible has a lot to say about selfishness. This man claims to know all versions of the Bible. It is not worth my time to respond to him. He shames his race, his church, and his humanity. But then, what do we expext when we are so good at exposing false doctrine, as the followers admit to the questions put to them, because their narcissistic egos force them too. Ignorance is bliss, so they say. We have proved our point. Now we can go to better subjects. I'm going to suggest a new topic. I wonder if he has seen any UFO's lately. Mormons get really excited when there are reports of them. I guess they think it's their family member coming to take them away. Oh, we are so blessed with the knowledge that only our Lord and Savior will come to take us. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: Fortunately, that is not the heaven which Latter-day Saints believe in. GC: I've never claimed to know all versions of the Bible. I just know that they all disagree with each other. That information is easy to find online. I shame my RACE? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I was waiting for that one! Your claims get more absurd by the day. Mormons and UFOs??? Pathetic . . . | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.206 |
If you call yourself a spokeman for the mormon church, you are so inadequate as to be ludicrous in your knowledge. Picky, choosy, and personally, I am too busy to find information online. I would rather go directly to the source, which is God's Holy Word, which I am afraid you will never understand. You just DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES at this time. So sorry for you and yours. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 339 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
GC, when did I say that I was a spokesman for the Church? Gee, you can't be bothered to check for info online, so that pretty much answers the questions of why you say some of the things that you say, which anyone who had ever been a Mormon would know better than. You'd better check around, your version of "God's Holy Word" isn't accepted as being accurate by some of your fellow Protestants. Yes, GC, you are pretty sorry, all right. But at least you are amusing. UFOs and all. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Look at what's going on in Israel for example. What is that all about? As far as I can tell, it is about people equating terrorists that purposefully try to kill babies with soldiers that do their best to only target the terrorists. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 320 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.113.184 |
Christ does not invoke hatred and anger. Christ invokes love and joy. UnChristian bigotry and greed brings about evil. satan is in the world everywhere, including the Christian Church. Always has been and always will be until Christ returns. Any evil act that a member of the Christian Church has done or will do is not caused by the message of Jesus Christ. It is caused by the influence that satan has on the human race, including ones that call themselves Christian. But don't blame the acts of all killers on Christianity. Hitler wasn't a Christian. Neither was Stalin, Tojo, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Atilla the Hun, Ghenkis Khan etc, Ramses etc. They are good enough reasons why Christians all over the world need to pray for protection. That's why we must cling to and obey the word Christ gave us to keep us from the influence of satan. Christians are not better than anyone. We just believe we are going to a better place. Christ is disappointed and proud of all of us. Disappointed when we do wrong. Proud of us and blesses us when we do right. But because of a Christian's faith in Him we are rewarded with everlasting life, despite of our many faults. Our sins are forgiven by our faith alone. Not by our deeds. But only God knows if we are sincere in our faith or not. God knows us by our fruit. But our fruit grows and ripens because of our love for God, not because of the promise of some reward. The subject of Christ invokes hatred and anger because satan hates Christ, Christians and all mankind. Darkness hates the light. But Christ Himself invokes love, joy and peace on Earth. And eternal life to those who believe that Christ is the one and only Son of God. And that all who believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life!  | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Sunbeam It isn’t correct to lay all the hatred and anger in this world on one religion’s doorstep. Much hatred and anger has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. People also fight for territory, natural resources, nationalism, and emotionalism (i.e. honor, pride, glory, etc.) | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 399 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
SB: I prefer Northern Ireland as an example, myself. That's "good Christian" against "good Christian." | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 169 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.109 |
It is the mormon belief in UFO's that is amusing. Mormons teach because humans have some attrubutes of God and Christ, (are alike, as in sight, touch, etc.) that men have the same form as God and Christ. That they will continue on to another planet (like earth) with physical bodies, (like earthlings). So, they will have to travel in machines that can carry humans like solopilot, for instance. Since they also teach that upon death, they will start preparing for the arrival of other humans on another planet, how do you think they will get there? Ask a mormon? Enter, spacecraft. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 170 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.109 |
The title "why do hate mormons" is an odd one. I don't hate mormons, I disdain and pity them. I pray for them. Only God can judge them. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 444 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
GC: Please provide ANY reference to "Mormon belief in UFOs." | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 175 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.60.250 |
I don't talk to mormons any longer about such things. You talk to them. You are around them all the time. Ask them these questions, if you dare. Stop saying, 'well, Joseph Smith explained it this way or that.' His lies do not wash and will never wash. Only 13 million supposedly believe the way you do, and you all cannot obviously agree. And of those 13 million, probably one-fourth to one-fifth are children, who are taught they will go to heaven no matter what they do. You are the one who said 'only sons of perdition' will go to hell'. I didn't. They can be inactive members, as I and most of the members I knew were, and it was okay because as long as we had the title mormon we were saved. Jack mormons is what we were called. Sound familiar? Probably not. You say you will probably 'never be a god'. Why on earth not. You think you are perfect already. You act the part, dress the part, talk the part.. Not one thing you are so proud of is what God wants from you. I seriously hope for your sake you are not the person you present yourself to be here. A wantabe extrordinaire. What we Jack mormons did was not valuable in the mormon church. Loving our neighbor. Being kind. Caring for one another in time of need, whether people were mambers or not. We didn't care about going to a temple. We did not care about rituals. We did not care about a big fancy building to meet in, other than the fact that we could dance there and play basketball in the gym. GOD DOES NOT LIVE IN A BOX. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
I love reading Godchild's comments. I agree with SP either you are lying about ever being LDS, or for how long, or are just confused cos you've read so many LDS sites you've mixed it up with LSD. I read somwhere once, not sure where but it said that .... then fill in the gaps with anything from the Mormons want to take over the world to that they control the supply of Spongebob Squarepants toys and GC will have been taught it in primary, heard it preached form the stand or been grilled about it in a Temple Recommend interview. Maybe she is allowed internet access as part of her therapy?  | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 452 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
GC wrote: "I don't talk to mormons any longer about such things." I asked you to provide proof that you ever HAVE talked to Mormons about such things. You made the accusation, now back it up. As if you could. "Stop saying, 'well, Joseph Smith explained it this way or that.'" Show me one example in which I said that. "They can be inactive members, as I and most of the members I knew were," Two out of the three, GC? We've already established that you don't know things which any Mormon (or former Mormon) would know. You've changed your story several times on basic nuts and bolts issues. Now you imply that you have known vast numbers of Mormons, most of whom were inactive. Uh . . .GC . . ? It's the PROTESTANT cultists who say that they're saved because they call themselves Christians. Mormons are expected to FOLLOW Christ, not just know his name. I will probably never be a god because I'm not worthy of being a god, and doubt that I can make up for lost time. I'm far from perfect, and your claims about how I act and dress are pure fantasy, as you have never seen me. Speaking of fantasy, now you claim that you were a "Jack" Mormon, as if that would explain your not knowing what any former Mormon would know, then you claim that only JACK Mormons are into "Loving our neighbor. Being kind. Caring for one another in time of need, whether people were mambers or not." How could someone who was a Mormon (even a Jack Mormon, which phrase you don't understand in the first place) not have heard the sermons, the General Conference talks, and the guidance from Church leaders at all levels to love our neighbors, be kind, and care for one another, Mormon or not? From an April 1999 General Conference talk by by Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: "In a little over a decade, the Church has shipped more than 27,000 tons of clothing, 16,000 tons of food, and 3,000 tons of medical and educational supplies and equipment to relieve the suffering of millions of God's children in 146 countries in many parts of the world. We do not ask, "Are you members of our church?" We ask only, "Do you suffer?"" | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 176 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.149 |
Solopilot has been right all along. And Joesdad too. I do sound like a nut-case and probably am one. Organized religion has caused me to get so hypocritical: one moment talking about love and kindness; the next 'pulling my hair out' and ranting about the idiocy of mormonism. I hope the mormon church HAS changed some of it's thinking since I was a member; yes, I really, really was. I hope for the sake of the members, not the organization. I said SP was right: he was when he said 'by definition all churches are cults'. This statement is from "Larson's New Book of Cults": Even given the current anticult climate, few targets of the cults see their future as one of involuntary slavery and physical domination. Before joining any exotic sect, one should be aware of what could result: seurosis, psychosis, suicidal tendencies, guilt, identity confustion, paranoia, hallucinations, loss of free will, intellectual sterility, and diminished cpapcity of judgement. It will be much easer to avoid such consequences by identifying and recognizing the following pshchological forms of 'cult-coercion.' 1. Absolute loyalty. Allegiance to the sect is damanded and enforced by actual or veiled threats to one's body or eternal spiritual condition. 2. Altered diet. Depriving one of essential nutrients and enforcing a low-protein diet can lead to disorientation and emotional susceptibility. 3. Chanting and meditation: Objective intellectual input is avoided by countering anticult questions with repetitious songs and chants. 4. Conformity: Dress, language, names, and interests take on a sameness that erodes individualality. 5. Doctrinal Confusion. Incomprehensible "truths" are more readily accepted when presented in a complex fashion that encourages rejection of logical thought. 6. Exclusivity. Those outside the cults are viewed as spiritually inferior, creating an exclusive and self-righteous "we" versus "they" attitude. 7. Financial involvement. All or part of one's personal assets may be donated to the cult, increasing a vested interest in sticking with it and lessening the chance of returning to a former vocation. 8. Hypnotic states. Inducing a highly susceptible state of mind may be accomplished by chanting, repetitious singing, or meditation. 9. Isolation from outside. Diminished perception of reality results when one is physically separated from friends, society, and the rational frame of reference in which one ;has previously funtioned. 10. Lack of Privacy. Reflective, critical thinking is impossible in a setting where cult members are seldom left unattended, and the ego's norman emotional defensive mechanisms can easily be stripped away by having the new member share personal secrets that can later be used for intimidation. 11. Love-Bombing. Physical affection and constant contrived attention can give a false sense of camaraderie. 12. Megacommunication. Long, confusing lectures can be an effective tool if the inductee is bombarded with glib rhetoric and catch phrases. 13. New Relationships. Marriage to another cult member and the destruction of past family relationships integrates one fully into the cult "family." 14. Nonsensical Activities. Games and other activities with no appparent purpose leave one dependent upon a group or leader to give direction and order. 15. Pavlovian Control. Behavior modification by alternating reward and punishment leads to confusion and dependency. 16. Peer Pressure. By exploiting one's desire for acceptance, doubts about cult practices can be overcome by offering a sense of belonging to an affirming community. 17. Sensory Deprivation. Fatigue coupled with prolonged activity can make one vulnerable to otherwise offensive beliefs and suggestions. 18. Unquestioning Submission. Acceptance of cult practices is achieved by discouraging any questions or natural curiosity that may challenge what the leaders propagate. 19. Value Rejection. As the recruit becomes more integrated into the cult, he is encouraged to denounce the values and beliefs of his former life. This was written by a Christian leader. Sounds to me like he defining not only Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Buddhists, Judaism, Islam; in fact, all organized religion. As for me I will continue to believe in God and trust in his mercy to me. ` | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Really, you need to be repenting and returning to the Church so that you can live all of the Gospel - his mercy will surely not overlook your intentionally ignoring some of his commandments ? - he will not be mocked ! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.141 |
Sorry, I think I'll stick to the Commandment Christ gave, 'to love my neighbor as myself'. I live amongst many 'seniors'. I have taken a special liking to the lady 'Lou' who lives downstairs. Her belief in God is a given. She said to me "All we have left is our friends and loved ones, in the end".I wanted to add, 'and God', but the look in her eyes told me she already knows that. She's right. No building, no organization, can give me what these little old people give. And at no cost to me. A little of my time is all they desire, even though they don't ask for it. They are always thankful for it, and I am the one who always walks away with a treasure. I am finding more truths in these days and I thank God for it. The Greek word for 'ecclesia' is translated, church. Ecclesia means a group of people called out. The Bible contains no such phrase as 'Going to church'. The word 'ecclesia' engages people, not buildings. In the King James version of the Bible, Luke, the writer of acts, describes the mob worshipping a goddess, as a church. People think they can't find truth outside a church (building). Christ never taught in a church, never worked miracles in a church. He did it in people's homes, on hillsides, on the water. Churches claim authority. By whose definition? Peter and John were uneducated and untrained. There are so many Godly people outside of the building, you should check them out. They're all around you. And they never go into a 'building'. Just think. If the World would sell all the church buildings, all the junk, the proceeds would feed all the hungry, heal all the sick, dig all the wells needed, replant all the trees, clean the oceans and the atmosphere. No, that would be a stewardship men don't want. Only what God wants. The organization has become more important than God. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.141 |
Joesdad, I did not say only Jack mormons love their neighbor, etc. The mormon church has a great welfare program, and the relief society does a lot to promote raising children properly. What I said was we, as Jack mormons, loved our neighbors, etc.;in spite of all the other nonsense required by the mormon church. I can imagine your response will be, 'we don't require' anything, it is our choice'. Right? Well, my choice was to be a Jack mormon and we were sure frowned on a whole lot, and warned about not getting exalted, and all that jazz. There is a lot of 'implied threat' that God is going to punish, or that we wouldn't see God in our part of heaven if we didn't conform, (wrong word), desist and obey. I will repeat, "I find it shameful that my mother's only reason for living (her words) is her promise to her husband that she would finish his geneology." Gee, don't ya think that's kind of a waste? No, I forgot, she will get her exaltation for that. PULEEZE! That's all snizzlefritzle. Not a book of mormon term, but it sure sounded good in my brain when I thot it And my Mother has been a mormon for probably longer than you've been alive, and has been to the temple numerous times for various, curious reasons. And it was all free of charge? NOT!!! So she is obviously following her 'churches' rules and regs. What about God's love for her. Where does that come into it. She is living her whole life trying to buy her way and work her way into a place that was already paid for 2000 years ago. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 180 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.141 |
Joesdad, I did not say only Jack mormons love their neighbor, etc. The mormon church has a great welfare program, and the relief society does a lot to promote raising children properly. What I said was we, as Jack mormons, loved our neighbors, etc.;in spite of all the other nonsense required by the mormon church. I can imagine your response will be, 'we don't require' anything, it is our choice'. Right? Well, my choice was to be a Jack mormon and we were sure frowned on a whole lot, and warned about not getting exalted, and all that jazz. There is a lot of 'implied threat' that God is going to punish, or that we wouldn't see God in our part of heaven if we didn't conform, (wrong word), desist and obey. I will repeat, "I find it shameful that my mother's only reason for living (her words) is her promise to her husband that she would finish his geneology." Gee, don't ya think that's kind of a waste? No, I forgot, she will get her exaltation for that. PULEEZE! That's all snizzlefritzle. Not a book of mormon term, but it sure sounded good in my brain when I thot it And my Mother has been a mormon for probably longer than you've been alive, and has been to the temple numerous times for various, curious reasons. And it was all free of charge? NOT!!! So she is obviously following her 'churches' rules and regs. What about God's love for her. Where does that come into it. She is living her whole life trying to buy her way and work her way into a place that was already paid for 2000 years ago. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.141 |
As for Joesdad telling the world; in conference, one of our prophets said how much food, clothes, etc. we sent to needy people. Ever read in the Bible where it says, 'do not let your right hand know what your left hand does'? Because it's called bragging, and God doesn't like braggerts. Maybe your God does, though. You see, I don't need to tell you all what my days consist of. I only need to tell you that I thank God every day that I am willing to be in his will, because he has given me each breath I take. The rest, I know he has and will take care of. More gloriously than anyone but he and I know. It's called a "personal relationship", which my mormon friends and family always get very nervous about when I mention it. "Personal Relationship". Yes, it happens. To me and many others you have never met and never will as long as you limit yourself. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Sorry GC you picking and choosing whcih commandmants to obey is exactly what caused the problem the world has today (obviously I'm not saying YOU have caused the problems). Natural Man (and Woman) - what they find difficult to live, they seek to change, and are proud to be non-conformist! Unfortunately, this attitude simply increases the gulf between them and God! What's all the nonsense about buildings? - why did God command that Solomon build a Temple? - obviously cos he was having an off day, and scrapped the idea as an afterthought! I have personal relationship with God, independant of any LDS involvement, you have obviously forgotton the Primary lesson about that! - I'm not a brainwashed follower, nor do I blame anyone else for my failings - the Gospel of Jesus Christ when taught and lived in it's fullness will bring happiness the world could never hope to. That's why I say, lived it ALL | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Sorry, a typo " live it ALL" | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 182 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.221 |
Joesdad We seem to have a communication problem. Either I am not explaining myself very well or you are reading into what I say things not meant. When you speak of 'commandments', I assume you include those in the Holy Bible and mormon commandments. I can't say 'just' the Book of Mormon, because from what I recall it only repeats the 'moses' commandments. I live by the 'Old Testament' commandments and the new commandment by Jesus Christ in the 'New Testament'. What I believe about all 'organized religion're:churches, is 'a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump'. Someone said in another thread that we should learn Greek and Hebrew. I wish to God I had, now I will try to learn as much as I can. Not for myself, because nothing I have read or seen changes my basic belief in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible showed geneology. There is no commandment to do your geneology. In fact, you can read in John, 'not to do geneology'. Why doesn't Solomon's Temple still stand? You are commanded to follow the 'Word of Wisdom'. The Bible says 'think not what you shall eat or drink'. God provides. I know that to be true in my own daily life. Why isn't what Jesus did good enough for men? Go to the hills to teach, by the rivers, and in 'people's houses'? Jesus never taught in a 'Temple'. If you read the Bible, he actually wasn't very happy and reacted angrily while there. And lastly, HIS SACRIFICE GUARANTEED OUR SALVATION. If you don't believe that, then you should only use Jewish teachings. I am afraid that is pretty close to mormon beliefs anyway; mormons teach that Jesus Christ was just a man, a good man and a good teacher. Mohammed taught he was the brother of Jesus. Mormons teach Satan was the brother of Jesus, before his fall. Buddhists believe in reincarnation. The mormon church teaches this life is a preparation for the next, and the next, til you get it right. ONCE AGAIN. THANKS, BUT NO THANKS! I am very pleased to hear you have a personal relationship with the Lord. It will keep you in good stead. Now I'm going to go check and see if sp answered my question? Did he get rebaptized when he joined the mormon church. (he said he was a christian studying for the pastorate before he left protestantism. Maybe I am assuming he was baptized then.)Two, I mean too. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 183 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.221 |
Joesdad, I just thought of something I'd like to ask you. What is your personal testimony? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Sorry GC: You again show you memory of what you once believed, to be waning. We are not Commanded to do Genealogy, as we are not Commanded to keep the Word of Wisdom. You lambast the buildings we use, but do not explain why God Commanded Temples be built (my ref to Solomon. You miss the mark by a mile when recanting LDS beliefs in Christ, no where do we teach he was JUST A MAN - we beleive hee was ONLY a brother to us all in the spirit, only He was begotten of the Father in the flesh! You must be joking! - you must have been a member of an LDS spin - off to have been taught we believe in reincarnation. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 185 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.226 |
The old testament speaks of building temples. The new testament teaches our bodies are temples. What temples were built in the new testament? Unless you understand that Christ was crucified for our sins, that his sacrifice is our justification before God, you won't understand anything I might have to say. And to say "only He was begotten of the Father in the flesh" is the voice of men thinking God literally had sex with Mary and is something only Mormons would dream up in order to open the door to teach they can become Gods. Because I believe the Book of Mormon is fiction and js was a false prophet, we have nothing further to discuss. I believe God is spirit, period. A spirit cannot have intercourse with a human being. You believe God was a man, therefore Mary wasn't a Virgin. Think what you like. I just happen to think that is repulsive and blasphemy. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 190 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Godchild I always thought that Christianity views jesus as the Son of God. But now you say that God is a spirit and not able to have intercourse with a human being, like Mary. So, how did your deity become the son of god? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 188 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.44 |
Yaakov, Read the New Testament. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 198 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
When people ask me questions about Judaism, I find an answer. Lazy of you to just say go read a bible. I wanted your opinion. | ||
| ultimate1 (ultimate1) Intermediate Member Username: ultimate1 Post Number: 259 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.165.157.160 |
Yaakov, You won't get answers from a lot of so called Christians. Here's th biblical record of jsut a few of the prophecies foretelling Jesus birth. Isaiah 7:14 "And [Isaiah] said, Hear then, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary and try the patience of men, but will you weary and try the patience of my God also? 14Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us" Then in Numbers 24:17 and Isaiah 60:3 foretel the star, the kings and the magi along with other things 2Chr 36:14 and 2Chr34:13, Malichi 2:7 &3:1 Luke 1:26 tells the story. 26Now in the sixth month [after that], the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee named Nazareth, 27To a girl never having been married and a [v]virgin engaged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28And he came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [[w]endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! [x]Blessed (favored of God) are you before all other women! 29But when she saw him, she was greatly troubled and disturbed and confused at what he said and kept revolving in her mind what such a greeting might mean. 30And the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found grace ([y]free, spontaneous, absolute favor and loving-kindness) with God. 31And listen! You will become pregnant and will give birth to a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus. 32He will be great (eminent) and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His forefather David, 33And He will reign over the house of Jacob throughout the ages; and of His reign there will be no end.(G) 34And Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I have no [intimacy with any man as a] husband? 35Then the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a shining cloud]; and so the holy (pure, sinless) Thing (Offspring) which shall be born of you will be called the Son of God.(H) 36And listen! Your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is now the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37For with God nothing is ever impossible and no word from God shall be without power or impossible of fulfillment. 38Then Mary said, Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord; let it be done to me according to what you have said. Isaiah 9:6 6For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.(C) 7Of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from the [latter] time forth, even forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this Danuiel 9:23& 10:19 There are many prophecies coinciding explaing the birth. (I don't have time to list them all) Imaculate conception is the religious term used for implanting a Mary the virgin with God's seed by way the Holy Spirit. The seed of the man determines the sex. God had to have the permission of Mary. (Mary said so be it and God made it so) 37For with God nothing is ever impossible and no word from God shall be without power or impossible of fulfillment. 38Then Mary said, Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord; let it be done to me according to what you have said. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 200 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Thanks Ultimate1. I was interested enough that I actually read the Christian bible passages that you posted. So Godchild is saying that Mormons think that your god temporarily became a man to have sexual intercourse with a woman to procreate his son. But, Godchild is saying that his god is a spirit that didn’t actually physically touch Mary, but impregnated her anyways. And since Mary’s hymen wasn’t pierced, that she remained a virgin despite having a child. Weird. | ||
| bee (bee) Junior Member Username: bee Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.38.240.22 |
Yaakov, I find it interesting that you have no problem believing in God & His power but find it weird to think He has the power to place his Son in a woman without phyically touching her. | ||
| ultimate1 (ultimate1) Intermediate Member Username: ultimate1 Post Number: 263 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.165.157.160 |
yaakov, Mormons believe in writings of Smith and others. They believe children are kept in a place(like paradise) and need to created to enter earth. Their belief causes them to have huge families. I love Utah but the Mormons are deceived by wierd teachings. Many are nice people. They believe Smith before they came to and later left Navoo, Illinois for Utah, had a meeting with a large Salamander and had prophecies given him. (Smith was a Methodist ministers son and wrote fiction. Much of his fiction writings are incorporated in his teachings. (Documented in a book called the Mormon Papers) Smith was short a few bricks of a load and his elevator didn't go all the way to the top. Smith was deranged and many of the teachings hidden in the great temple in Salt Lake has gotten out by leaving members. Although I believe this saying is a little mean, I have a friend who use to say there are too many M's in MORMON (Moron). Aritficial insemination is an amazing thing. It is done without intercourse. God did superntural insemination of himself. He just planted his seed inside Mary's womb. She stayed a virgin. He had no sexual intercourse as humans do. He had no need to. What is so hard to believe about that. The seed produces after it's own kind. God had to come as a sinless man. With no lineage to fallen human nature. Yes God is a spirit. So was Mary. She lived in a physical body and had a soul(mind will and emotions) designed by God. The Bible calls God's word the seed that made Jesus. God spoke the word. "The worlds were framed and created by the word of God." "Light BE" God spoke the word and the power of word created the seed and planted in Mary.Jesus is "called the word that became flesh". He became the physical incarnate of God's word on earth. He fulfilled all of the law and every prophecy spooken of messiah (Yashua Hamashea)including Isaiah 53:1-12,Chap 11:1-6 and 52:13-15 60:3, 61:3, 55:4,5, 35:4-6 and more. (Message edited by ultimate1 on February 14, 2005) (Message edited by ultimate1 on February 17, 2005) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 194 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.145 |
Ultimate did a wonderful job of explaining the 'immaculate conception'. The reason I didn't was not so much laziness as: I believe the scriptures are God's word given to us. Many people on these posts want the answers but their laziness limits the power of the holy spirit to work in them. People have a much greater understanding when they literally pick up the New Testament (and the Old) and read it themselves. In this way, they can interpret it themselves and then ask questions about anything that confuses them. I ask a lot of questions, but I also do a lot of reading. I hope you will not take what I say as an insult. If you did, I sincerely apologise. Just try it, you might like it. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 195 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.145 |
In order to show examples of the numerous descriptions of God in the bible, I started counting them. The alphabetical index in the front of my bible has three columns on one page with verses describing God. There were 73 on one column so I will guess there are approx. 200 verses. That would be a whole lot of typing. What I will do is give the verses describing God's invisibility and that he is spirit: God's invisibility Ex.20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. Ex.33:20 And he said; thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. Deut.5:22 These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly out of the mount in the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. 1 Kings 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. Job 9:11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not,: he passeth on also, but I percieve him not. Heb. 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the King; for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. God a Spirit John 4:24 God is a spirit; and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, God, the God of all the spirits of the flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? I hope this helps answer some of your questions. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 202 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Bee Are you posting regularly on any thread? I haven't seen your posts lately. As far as that story, it reminded me of Zeus being the father of Hercules. But, as I always said, you can believe whatever you want. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 203 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Godchild Many people on these posts want the answers but their laziness limits the power of the holy spirit to work in them. I don't look at it that way. When a person posts something, they should be able to explain it. It isn't up to the questioner to do the poster's homework. People have a much greater understanding when they literally pick up the New Testament (and the Old) and read it themselves....I ask a lot of questions, but I also do a lot of reading. Yeah, me too. I read the Jewish bible every week. There is always something new to learn. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 204 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
ultimate1 That was mean. I think you need to apologize to every Mormon on this board. You yourself noticed you were being crude Although I believe this saying is a little mean, ..." , but you went right ahead and insulted them anyways. I could say all sorts of things about how odd I find your beliefs, but I don't. If you disagree, fine. But don't go around insulting everyone. Not only will you anger people, but you aren't doing your soul any good with the derision either. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 197 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.145 |
Yaakov, You think the virgin birth is weird. You believe in circumcision, don't you? I think that's weird, but I understand it was a symbolic covenant between God and Jews. (Perhaps reminder is a better word than symbolic). There are a lot of things in the bible that sound weird, but my faith in God allows me to accept it. (Yaakov, no one is laughing at you) Try not to read that into everything written. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 198 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.145 |
Yaakov, Since I am not sure if the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible, would you tell me where I can get a copy? This is a serious question. I'd really like to read it. It is hard to understand what you believe without reading why you believe it. | ||
| bee (bee) Junior Member Username: bee Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.38.240.166 |
Yaakov, No I am here & there posting where I feel led to. You wrote: You can believe whatever you want. That is not a correct statement. I really cannot. Since Christ revealed Himself to me there is only one way that I can believe. I hope that all is well for you. Bless You. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 205 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Godchild Using my definitions, I call your version of our Torah, the Christian bible or the Old Testament. I call my bible, the Jewish bible, the Tanakh, or the Torah. So, under my definitions, the Old Testament is NOT the Jewish bible. You really want to read the Tanakh? Here is an online English language Jewish bible, Judaica Press Complete Tanach BTW, since Hebrew sounds don’t translate perfectly to English, Tanakh and Tanach are both referring to the same thing, the Jewish bible. I prefer spelling it with a k. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 199 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.49 |
Yaakov, thank you. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC  f course I believe that Christ died for our sins, and in doing so breached the void created between us and God by those selfsme sins. One of your sins is to lie about Mormon beliefs, knowing that you do so (or do you not consider lying to be a sin as part of your alternative chirtianity?). You know full well that LDS teaching does not include any from of physical contact betweeen God and Mary. Mary was a virgin up until the time she and Joesph consumated their marriage. Talking of laziness - any chance you may actually find out what Mormons believe before spouting off? Ultimate1: Some have huge families, some have none. I do not even know of the meeting with a large Salamander, let alone believe in it - may I suggest you have at least one anti-LDS rumour confused with another? Please, do you have the ISBN no's for the Smith fiction section? I read your comment about Mary being a spirit in a physical body with interest - was this the same state that Christ maintained during his mortal ministry? regardless of the way you attempt to use our belief in a premortal existence to deride us, you appear to believe in something similar! Spirit, Soul and body, please explain. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 206 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.97 |
Joesdad, How long have you been a member of LDS? I am not the least bit surprised you don't know what the original leaders believed and taught. That is the problem with trying to combine JS and BY teachings with christianity. They DO NOT JIVE! AND NEVER WILL. Unless the mormon church admits JS and BY were frauds who had their personal interests at heart. Don't call me a liar when I say I am godschild. You go to your leaders in your church and ASK THEM. Either they will be honest and admit these things, or they will say they are lies, or more than likely they will say 'you are not worthy enough yet to accept their truths, (which are lies and blasphemy). How you can deny these things when you believe GOD WAS A MAN, with all the physical attributes of a man? Just as you say you never heard of the Salamander. You know very little of what Mormons believe. You just aren't deep enough into their trap yet. The trap is set when you accept all the twisted beliefs of YOUR CHURCH. Only t |
