| Author | Message | ||
     false_prophet_detector (false_prophet_detector) Intermediate Member Username: false_prophet_detector Post Number: 259 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.41.65.47 |
whats better the next kid comes along and says hmmmmm unfounded belief vs. what i want to do with my life fhuck you i will do what i want and another christian seed is dead hallelujah | ||
| false_prophet_detector (false_prophet_detector) Intermediate Member Username: false_prophet_detector Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.41.65.47 |
oops i smell brimstone | ||
| ncr (ncr) Intermediate Member Username: ncr Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
GROW UP! | ||
| false_prophet_detector (false_prophet_detector) Intermediate Member Username: false_prophet_detector Post Number: 272 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.41.65.47 |
Y? | ||
| ncr (ncr) Intermediate Member Username: ncr Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
YEP! | ||
| ncr (ncr) Intermediate Member Username: ncr Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
YEP! | ||
| ncr (ncr) Intermediate Member Username: ncr Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
YEP! | ||
| ncr (ncr) Intermediate Member Username: ncr Post Number: 143 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
OPPS, should have only posted once. some software glich sorry | ||
| false_prophet_detector (false_prophet_detector) Intermediate Member Username: false_prophet_detector Post Number: 273 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.41.65.47 |
HOW? | ||
| false_prophet_detector (false_prophet_detector) Intermediate Member Username: false_prophet_detector Post Number: 274 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.41.65.47 |
WHEN? | ||
| false_prophet_detector (false_prophet_detector) Intermediate Member Username: false_prophet_detector Post Number: 275 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.41.65.47 |
i dont wanna ever ever gwow up | ||
| chillin New member Username: chillin Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 71.122.101.245 |
i'ma tell yo momma | ||
| truthteller98 New member Username: truthteller98 Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.155.86.165 |
I read a great book called I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. I think it would convert most atheists or make them not so convinced in their view. have you read this one? | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1002 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
No, but I will find it. I love a good challenge. | ||
| ncr Junior Member Username: ncr Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
A believer calls themselves "TruthTeller"? That would be funny were it not so from the truth, it is sad! Believers would not know the truth if they were swimming in it. ----------------- Come on Bluewater, there is NO "Good Challenge" as there is NOTHING a religionist can put out which does away with Facts, Logic, Common Sense, Knowledge and the Scientific Method of Investigation. And, as any intelligent, NON-programmed, rational person knows, Religion FAILS in ALL of those areas! This "Truthteller" is suggesting Atheists read a book when most of us have read the Bible and know how their "loving" god tells it's believers to KILL US! Has this "Truthteller" read former Christian Youth Leader, former Christian Song Writer (with over 100 published and good selling Pro-Christian religion songs.) and FORMER Christian Minister Dan Barker's excellent book, "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist"? I doubt it. It is available from http://www.ffrf.org Here are some De-Conversion Stories from a FEW of the MANY MILLIONS of Americans who have LEFT the Christian Religion. http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8452.htm ---------------------- "All things dull and ugly, all creatures short and squat; All things rude and nasty, the Lord God made the lot. Each little snake that poisons, each little wasp that stings He made their brutish venom, He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, all evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, the Lord God made them all. Each nasty little hornet, each beastly little squid. Who made the spiky urchin? Who made the shark? He did. All things scabbed and ulcerous, all pox both great and small, Putrid, foul and gangrenous, YOUR Lord God made them all. Amen." ------------------------ "Prayer Is Only Begging" ----------------------- "There was a time when the Christian Religion Ruled the Known World, it is called THE DARK AGES!" And too many of you clueless Christians want us to return to the Dark Ages. ------------------------ "Christian theology is not only opposed to the scientific spirit; it is opposed to every other form of rational thinking." H. L. Mencken ----------------------- | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 346 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 207.93.211.50 |
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8452.htm There are two types of Christians. One is the true believer. Dan Brown or anyone else can never shake his faith. The other groups is a christian only by name. This person uses Christianity for some personal gains. He does not even know what he believes. He is only pious and religious on Sundays only. This person will believe anything. No wonder these people who PLAY GOD and CHURCH will believe anything. If opportunity comes, they will even deny Christ because, they never met Him in their lives. If only they had met Him, their lives would have never been the same. These people are like a DOG sitting in a GARAGE and it thinks that it is a CAR. Those who deny their faith in Christ were never Christians in the true sense in the beginning. | ||
| ncr Junior Member Username: ncr Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Spoken like the little Programmed Religious Robot you are! Just another example of Christian "LOVE" between Christians? Tell me Child, how do you meet someone who never was? Why did the Christian Church NOT treat JC like he was a REAL person for more than the first THREE HUNDRED YEARS of the Christian religion? Why is there NO secular proof of JC's existence? Why is the story of JC JUST A COPY of the story of the Indian (from India) savior Krishna, who was "crucified" and then was "resurrected" some TWELVE HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE JC was supposed to have existed? There are at least SIXTEEN (16) other "Crucified" saviors BEFORE JC, most of them had "Virgin" mothers, were born around the Winter Solstice, and were "Resurrected"! (YEA RIGHT!) Your JC story has NO MORE proof than do any of the others! Why did NOT ONE reporter of the times (At the SAME TIME JC was supposed to have existed) NOT write ONE WORD about a guy who had people following him around, was "doing" miracles, had a BIG trial, was crucified and then CAME BACK and NOT ONE WORD? The answer is simple. IT DID NOT HAPPEN! SO Child, you have PROGRAMMED into believe your total BS belief system and are too clueless to know it. It is no damn wonder you and your ilk wind up in cults! | ||
| ncr Junior Member Username: ncr Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
FACTS are MULTI-MILLIONS more Americans go FROM being Christians TO being Atheists than go the other way. WHY? INCREASED KNOWLEDGE! They (unlike you) have made the effort to reject their programming. ---------------------- For those of you who not so programmed you reject reason, facts, logic, proof and knowledge, here is a book written by one of the MANY, MANY MILLIONS of FORMER Christians who opened their minds and learned. The author (as many have) went from being VERY religious for most of his life to being an Atheist. "Godless in America: conversations with an Atheist" by George A. Ricker Is now available at most book retailers and online book sellers. Click on the following link for more information on the book and/or to buy it. http://www.godlessinamerica.com ---------------------------- And here are stories of many others who have DE-Programmed themselves. (Proving it certainly is possible as Multi-Millions have done it.) http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8452.htm ----------------------------- There is no God than our God The humble Christians say. There is no God but our God. To Him alone we pray. What of the others by the score, God's just as great and mighty. Of Allah, Odin, Jove and Thor, Venus and Aphrodite. If to the one alone we pray, And He is just a faker, There surely will be Hell to pay When we go and meet our maker. So, good Christians take my advice. Don't be so damn egotistic. And on occasion in your prayers Address some other mystic. Remember there have been a score, A hundred, many thousands, maybe more. To say there is but one God Might make the others sore. The Christians believe in one God. Myself, I must confess, Am not so very different. I just believe in one less. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3101 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
ncr you are the one who is programmed and brainwashed. Multi millions?!? Where do you get those "facts"? Just because you pull a dubious number out of your arse does not make it verifiable. State your source! No matter how many you claim accept your godlessness it would never validate in your soul your bogus narcissistic beliefs. Your soul is smarter than your egotistical mind! | ||
| ncr Junior Member Username: ncr Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.212 |
Look, you stupid little PUNK, in order to be programmed, I would have had a programmer and I had none. I DE-programmed myself FROM YOUR TOTALLY STUPID, CLUELESS, CHILDISH RELIGION! The American Religious Identification Survey 2001 was carried out under the auspices of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and is considered a follow-up study of a 1990 census. The poll utilized a sample of over 50,000 randomly selected respondents, and was described as "the most comprehensive portrait of religious identification in the U.S. today." It revealed, for instance, while the numbers of Roman Catholics increased since 1990 from 46 million to nearly 50.8 million, their percentage of the population fell nearly two points. Protestants and other non-Catholic groups remain the majority, yet their proportion slipped sharply from 60% to 52%. Those identifying with a non-Christian religion jumped from 5.8 million to 7.7 million, reflecting 3.7% of the population. One of the most significant findings involved growth in the segment of the adult population "identifying with no religion." In 1990, 14.3 million or roughly 8% identified with this category. The new ARIS count now shows the non-believer population has grown to 29.4 million, roughly 14.1% of the American community. | ||
| ncr Junior Member Username: ncr Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.212 |
And Child, THERE IS NO SOUL! FIND ONE! SHOW ME ONE! Just another figment of your poor, non-functioning little mind. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3105 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
Identifying with no religion does not equate to non belief in a God. Many do not identify with any particular religion but do believe there is a God. So you lied! You've taken one poll out of many taken that shows a skewed view of what you are want a poll to say, trying in vain to validate your programmed poison. Yes you are programmed! You are just in denial about it. You can deny your own soul. And by the way you treat everyone, it appears you have no soul. But never the less you have one. You are just so disconnected from it that the pain is unbearable for you. So you have to take it out on everyone else. Carry on programmed atheist! Spew some more atheist dogma propaganda! That is what you have been well programmed to do!  “Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism” Vladimir Lenin | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Hey PUNK, You are so stupid, you do not even know what a lie is. I gave you one source and I am not going to do your home work for you. YOU HAVE ZERO PROOF your childish little god exists anywhere other than in the minds of those who believe in them. YOUR GOD IS NOTHING! And PUNK, Come tell me I lied to my face and you will either kick the crap out of you or die trying. Volleyball courts, 29th & the Strand, Manhattan Beach Ca. nearly every weekend after 1 PM 5' 11'' 200 pounds, gray beard and hair. I am waiting! Neil C. Reinhardt | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
"Where knowledge ends, religion begins." Disraeli ------------------------- "Faith short circuits the mind." Ayn Rand -------------------------- "Teachers of religion must give up the doctrine of a personal god." Albert Einstein ------------------------ "Religion is all bunk!" Thomas Edison ---------------------- "Christians are all insane!" Mark Twain ------------------------- "The motive of fear is the be-all and end-all of religion." H.L. Mencken ------------------------- "When a man is freed of religion, he has a better chance to live a normal and wholesome life." Sigmund Freud ------------------------- "The strong minded do not need religion while the weak minded do." William James (While this may not be an exact quote and it still expresses his thoughts and is just about what Jessie Ventura once said.) ------------------------- "The bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession." Abraham Lincoln ------------------------- "I disbelieve all holy men and holy books." Thomas Paine ------------------------ "What have been Christianity's fruits? - superstition, bigotry and persecution." James Madison ------------------------- "Revealed religion has no weight with me." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------- "I do not find in Christianity one redeeming feature" Thomas Jefferson ------------------------- "Religion is regarded by common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful." Secena ------------------- And the BEST for Last! "The Christian God is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust." Thomas Jefferson ------------------------- | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3110 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
Most of who you quoted, atheist robot, believed in God. So what's your point? I like you ncr. You are actually doing a great job proselytizing for theism. Anyone who reads one of your insulting, arrogant, violent, hateful posts would certainly not want anything to do with atheism! Carry on robot! | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1292 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
NCR sounds like an atheist Franklin. How fun. I like NCR's viewpoint better though. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3113 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
He is so much like you. The end justifies the means! | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 749 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.167.182 |
observing franklin and ncr just goes to show that people will be what they are, regardless of what they believe. Two peas in a pod on the opposite side of the spectrum. Interesting. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3114 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
And that I take offense to! Hate the message, kill the messenger! | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1458 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.136.170.117 |
HAHAHA nasty Neil takes the cake!! Nothing sexier than a gray haired, volleyball playing, fist swinging atheist!!!! | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Those who did believe in a god, did NOT believe in YOUR god! Nor did they believe in ANY type of personal, prayer answering god. Some of them, Child, did NOT believe in ANY type of god. And Oh Extremely Illogical One, while you show you have NO clue what a robot is, you really should know, as you ARE one. Bluewater, I am an Agnostic Atheist and damn proud of it. Back to Franklin, hey Oh Totally Clueless One, NOTHING I have said is as bad as what the professed LEADERS of your religion have said. Here are two links: http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/quotes.htm http://www.weirdcrap.com/recreational/chrsquot.htm And Oh Totally Un-Informed One, YOUR BIBLE tells you to KILL ALL those who do not believe in your god. NOTHING I have ever said is as bad as what YOUR Bible says. | ||
| dream_truth Advanced Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 750 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.167.182 |
Thanks for those links Neil. That is exactly the B.S. I was taught by christians growing up. | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Well, something must have been working as I scare myself when I look in a mirror and still have been fortunate enough to enjoy mutually satisfying sexual experiences with over eight times more women than the average man does during their life time. (And that does not include paying for it 4 times.) | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Dream Truth Thou art most welcome! | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1459 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.136.170.117 |
NEIL!!!!!l I did not want to hear that you PAID for sex baby now your falling off that pedestal I put you on!!! But I suppose atheists excuse me, agnostic atheists aren't the only ones to do that!!! Keep enjoying life,if you know what I mean There's nothing sweeter.  R (Message edited by rachelengland on June 17, 2006) | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Well Rachelengland, I regretted all four times. I paid for it as they were a waste of time and money. (Then, when one is young, one does what they are expected to do in certain circumstances and/or too much alcohol takes effect.) As far as the other two guys, the odds are, I can still out dance either of them. And I doubt either of them have saved as many lives as I have or been a deep sea & scuba diver, a rock climber, spelunker, MP, fire walker, bungee jumper, bouncer, corporate manager, business owner, life guard & paratrooper. (plus, I left some out) Sure do wish I had musical talent and it is sad it is wasted on a PRR. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1460 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.136.170.117 |
well we all make mistakes don't we - no matter who we are or what we follow-that's life we live and we learn. i'm just glad to see you are able to have a civil conversation and that you didn't yell at me. Your pretty amazing NCR. take care R | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
True, rachelengland, True. Thank you and I did not yell at you as you gave me no reason to do so. Please, Take Care! Neil | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
THIS YOU??? Rachel England - An old friend is looking for you at Travellerspoint Rachel is being looked for by chris smith, http://www.travellerspoint.com/lostfriend.cfm?lost=1392 | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1462 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
Nope that's not me-thanks though for asking. r | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 2294 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.10 |
rachel be careful lest you get in trouble.. dont mess around it can be dangerous and i am praying for you ( of course that can be dangerous too ) been wondering where you were. i dont like to hear you talk the way you do sometimes it hurts me very much | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1464 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
arron, I am sorry, I never, ever want to offend you and I am only joking around- it's so tempting sometimes, I can't hold back!!! I am for the most part being sarcastic with these guys-I am careful and thanks for the prayers you darling man... | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.192 |
Since my stupid old WebTV will not let me see all of the thread on Evolution and since I can not post to it, I hope one of you who are NOT PPR's (Programmed Religious Robots) will ask: 1. Why did your (make believe) god not make himself known until thousands of years AFTER there were people recording what was going on? Could it be because NO human had decided to invent he/she/it and add another god to the many thousands of invented gods? (ALL gods are invented.) Of course, the PRR's NEVER answer the following questions as they PROVE evolution is a fact 2. WHY do we have a TAIL BONE WE NO LONGER HAVE ANY USE FOR? 3. An APPENDIXES WE DO NOT NEED? 4. TONSILS WE DO NOT NEED? 5. Or is their god (which only exists in their programmed minds) so INCOMPETENT he/she/it just designs "perfect" humans with parts which are not only NOT needed for ANY reason, they cause medical problems? | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1508 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
I had my appendix taken out-in a third world country..darn thing My tail bone causes me so much pain sometimes, I can't find a comfortable position. I haven't had problems with my tonsils but 2 out of 3 aren't bad. NCR some believe those body parts were useful at one time.. | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.204 |
RE Thank you! The reason we have a tail bone because at ONE TIME, WE HAD A TAIL! And yes, I am sure both our tonsils and our appendix's WERE useful at one time. NOW we do not need them BECAUSE OF EVOLUTION! Also, why are the Watusi, who live in the heat, tall and thin (the tallest race in the world) while those who live in the cold (Eskimos) short and fat? EVOLUTION is the answer! Why do people (and OTHER larger animals) SHRINK in size when they live on a smaller island? (Like those in the So. Pacific with 3 ft tall humans and small elephants) The answer is, EVOLUTION! Next, someone brought up some 600 "scientists" signed something about evolution being false. Well, Children, 600 out of over 750,000 scientists is NOTHING! ZERO! NADA! ZIP! And all it really means is the 600 are STILL Programmed Religious Robots Last, Oh Clueless PRR's, there is NO such thing as "Atheist Dogma" | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3301 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
Perfect example of a troll! | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3303 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
Perfect example of a troll! | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3307 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.179.26 |
Atheist dogma is what you write on every post ncr. It's recognized dogma because it is the same that comes forth from the other atheists. It's part of your programming. But the last person to know that they have been programmed is the one who is programmed. | ||
| ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 2285 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.121.140.84 |
I like Nasty Niel, he challenged me to come down and fight him at the volleyball courts. I think because i questioned the validity of the Iraq war. He's pretty pugnacious, but not to be outdone, Franklin gives him an " I know you are but what am I " above. I would like to see the two of them fight each other, but I have a feeling they might be the same person. Goddam, I love that Neil, he's about as pleasant as a cactus toilet seat... | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1400 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
NCR used to work for me when he was a bouncer. He doesn't know it though. He is a pretty tough old •••••••. Angrier than he needs to be though. It would be fun to get him and Franklin together on the volley ball court. I think that Franklin might have a tough time spiking the ball. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1528 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
I thought he was a rather friendly fellow... | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1402 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
You bring out the best in everyone, Rachel. | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1529 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
gracias | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1403 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Por nada. | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.208 |
AMERICAN ATHEISTS GIVE BILLIONS TO CHARITIES While Ted Turner (who is an Atheist) gave One Billion to the UN to help others, he is a mere "piker" when compared to two others. Warren Buffet (who is an Atheist) to give away most of his fortune to charities! Five foundations, including Gates', will get bulk of his $42 billion Anthony Bolante / Reuters file Warren Buffett, will give much of his fortune to Bill Gates (who is an Atheist) charitable foundation the Microsoft co-founder runs with his wife. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is already the world's largest philanthropy with assets of about $29.1 billion. OMAHA, Neb. - Billionaire investor Warren Buffett announced plans Sunday to give the bulk of his roughly $42 billion fortune to five foundations in annual gifts of stock starting next month. The decision represents a stark reversal for the world's second-richest man, who for years had said his wealth would be pledged to philanthropies after his death. Moreover, his vast holdings of Berkshire Hathaway Inc. stock had been expected to go largely to the Susan Thompson Buffett Foundation, begun by his late wife. Her foundation has given millions of dollars to hospitals, universities and teachers, as well as to Planned Parenthood and other abortion rights groups. Instead the 75-year-old chairman and chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway plans to give the largest contribution to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, established by Buffett's friend and Berkshire board member Bill Gates. Buffett's gift will increase the resources of the Gates Foundation, which is already the world's largest philanthropy with assets of about $29.1 billion. While calls to Berkshire Hathaway's offices were not immediately returned Sunday, letters outlining the gifts were posted on the company's Web site. Fortune magazine reported on Buffett's decision earlier. The Gates' issued a joint statement applauding Buffett's decision. "We are awed by our friend Warren Buffett's decision to use his fortune to address the world's most challenging inequities, and we are humbled that he has chosen to direct a large portion of it to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation," Bill and Melinda Gates said. Over time, Buffett plans to give away 12,050,000 Class B shares of Berkshire Hathaway stock to the foundations, but he will have to convert some of his 498,320 Class A shares to complete the gifts. One Class A share, which sold for $92,100 on Friday, can be converted into 30 Class B shares, which sold for $3,071 Friday on the New York Stock Exchange. So these gifts would be worth nearly $37 billion at Friday's Class A share prices. Buffett said he plans to earmarks 10 million B shares for the Gates Foundation, 1 million B shares for the Susan Thompson Buffett Foundation named in honor of his wife and 350,000 shares for the three foundations run by each of his children. Buffett plans to give each foundation 5 percent of his total pledge each year in July. | ||
| chesed Member Username: chesed Post Number: 53 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
It seems here on this thread ncr is the resident expert atheist, and so I'd love his take on whether his beliefs constitute a religion. And arron or franklin, who seem to be on the other side of the coin (though there are many sides of this coin), what do you think? I do hope ncr used sunscreen at the volleyball courts this past weekend, for it's been more than just hot out here in SoCal lately. (Message edited by chesed on July 17, 2006) | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3560 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.180.154 |
I do believe that atheism is a religion (or non religion, same thing). They hate to admit it. And love to play semantics in order to deny it. But it has all the attributes of a religion. Of course they'll point out the trivial details of why it is not a religion. Denial is a big factor. No atheist churches, no seeming organization... (Not much different than a theist who doesn't worship in a church setting) Secular Humanism seems to fill in those details that maybe atheism doesn't have. But by their behavior, the dogma, the single mindedness, the hard driven desire to convert others to their beliefs, the intolerance towards anyone who challenges their religion, always projecting towards others of different beliefs, the ferocity and addictive nature they display, all points to atheism fitting the definition of a religion. Certainly atheists behave religiously. Yes, it is a religion. And if ncr (or any of them) replies to this post you will see what I mean. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1456 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.12 |
"I do believe that atheism is a religion (or non religion, same thing)." That is a contradiction in terms isn't it? Not to mention a "non sequitur." In what way is religion and non-religion the same thing? The prefix "non" literally means "not". Religion = Not Religion?! In what way are you wanting us to stop making a distinction between atheism and religion? You obviously want to make belief and non-belief the same in some way for a purpose. What is it? What is the point you're trying to make from that statement? | ||
| dodge Intermediate Member Username: dodge Post Number: 369 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.232.84.245 |
I think this is an example of why Franklin does not want to use logic and reason when talking about religion, as he said to DT during their so-called debate. The fact is that atheism cannot be a religion. According to accepted definitions of 'religion,' it is a "...belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe; and a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship." Franklin, as a Christian do you believe the Hindu God Ganesh does not exist? Or do you not believe in Ganesh? If you believe that Ganesh does not exist, then may I say that you are a member of the non-Ganesh religion? If I, as an atheist, not believing in your God is a faith; then you not believing in other Gods is an equal faith. It is a myth that atheism is just another religion. Franklin, perhaps you are so caught up in your own religious beliefs that you can't imagine any person living without religion of some sort. Maybe it's due to some persistent misunderstanding of what atheism is. Or perhaps you just don't care that what you say really doesn't make any sense. | ||
| dream_truth Senior Member Username: dream_truth Post Number: 1031 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 72.224.167.26 |
Is theism a religion? I dont think theism is a religion. It is simply the belief in a God or Gods, but with no particular religion attached to it. In the same way, atheism is not a religion either. It is simply the non-belief in a God or Gods. If you take theism to the next level and define which God or Gods you believe in, and follow a specific doctrine, then you have a theist religion. Also, if you take your atheism to another level and design some set of beliefs around your non-belief in God, it could be a religion. But neither theism or atheism are religions on their own. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1458 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.14 |
The big difference is a religion involves the supernatural and a philosophy like Secular Humanism does not involve the supernatural. The core difference is simply this: Secular Humanism = Humans are responsible for solving their problems. Religion = Humans can rely on supernatural beings to help them solve their problems. Whatever personal label you apply to either the difference doesn't go away. What is the purpose of insisting that atheism or secular humanism are "religions"? Should we use another name to differentiate between belief systems that are based on the existence of the supernatural and those that are not? What would that be and why would we need to? I'm trying to make an effort at understanding franklin's viewpoint. | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1539 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Franklin says, "I do believe that atheism is a religion (or non religion, same thing)." I must admit, that having a rational discussion with someone who thinks that religion, and non-religion are the same thing, is next to impossible. But, DreamTruth brings up a good point. A parallelism can be drawn between atheism and theism. Neither are a religion. One points to a belief that there is no god and the other believes that there is. Theism does not automatically mean that someone is part of a religion. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1459 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.14 |
The only way to properly deal with cults and cultic influence is education. When people are given a book and someone says it is the most important book in the world because it is the "Word of God". Then someone should educate themselves on the origins of the material and understand the arguments for and against the document being of divine origin. They should also educate themselves on the history of whatever religion or sect they are be approached by rather than taking their word for it. Simply researching leaders and movement histories can flush out questionable people and practices before you become involved yourself. The problem is people are not prone to do that. The error is counting on revealed knowledge and faith as a basis to form a judgement rather than religious skepticism. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1460 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.14 |
When someone finds out that The Book of Urantia is supposed to have materialized inside a locked vault or that The Book of Mormon was translated from golden plates that only Smith could read, a judicious person would view these unprecedented claims with some skepticism rather than accepting it on faith. The same should be said for any alleged supernatural text or claim. If people would only question more, fewer people would be drawn into cults. (Message edited by trainedobserver on July 17, 2006) | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 333 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
I think there is a difference between atheist and secular humanist. An atheist does not believe in God at all, it is non-belief in any religion. Although an atheist can present his message of non-theism with fervor, almost evangelistically, atheism is not a religion. Since we are speaking English, where is the accepted dictionary of the English language that says otherwise? On the other hand, a secular humanist does not have to believe in God but they can. A member of just about any religion can be a secular humanist in their relationship to the world. Although I am Christian, I absolutely believe that humans are responsible for solving their problems so I don’t believe my behavior is superstitious in any way. I do not understand franklin’s viewpoint on the definition of religion and atheism. | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.208 |
Due to the size limitation on posts, this is in two parts PART 1 Calling Atheism a religion is asinine! And something only the programmed religious robots would come up with. While SOME Americans who are Atheists WERE programmed into being Atheists by those who raised them, this is NOT true for MOST Americans who are Atheists. We WERE programmed into the Christian religion by those who raised us and then, we DE-programmed ourselves. Atheism doe NOT fit one definition of religion I have ever read much less the definition as accepted by the vast majority of people. All the members of any religion all share MORE than ONE belief in common, The ONLY belief all Atheists share in common is they do NOT believe in one, or more, of the 30,000 some gods which humans have invented so far. Atheists have NO dogma, NO guide book telling them what rules to follow or what to believe. NO instructions, as the Christians do, telling them to KILL ALL OF THOSE who do not believe as they do. (The Moslems do NOT have a book telling them to KILL all those who do not believe in the same god they do.) ------------------------- I have found, other on the subject of the existence of one, or more gods, Atheists are NOT any more rational or logical or reasonable as religious people are. And I have found religious people are as rational, logical and reasonable on ALL subjects OTHER THAN THEIR OWN RELIGION and the existence of THEIR god or gods, as are most Atheists. Very sadly, I find many Atheists are just as prone to deny any facts which prove them wrong as religious people are. Just like religious people, their little illogical minds are made up and things like facts make no difference to them. | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.208 |
PART 2 As far as Agnostics and Atheists go, I submit the following. For some reason, which is totally beyond me, it seems many people don't seem to either know, or they are totally unable to comprehend, the difference in the definitions of "KNOW" and "BELIEVE" They seem not to fathom those two words do NOT mean the same thing. So I will attempt to explain it in the most simple terms I know. The last time I started a car, I KNOW it started. The next time I attempt to start a car, it may, or it may not, start. Therefore, while I BELIEVE the car will start, there is NO WAY for me to KNOW if it is going to start or not UNTIL I try to start it. Agnostics should ask themselves a very simple question: Do I BELIEVE in a god? The answer is EITHER "YES" or "NO" (It is NOT "sometimes yes" and "sometimes no" Anyone who says it is ain't worth wasting any of my time with as they are totally clueless.) If they answer "YES, I BELIEVE in a god" they are NOT Agnostics, they ARE theists! If they answer "NO, I do NOT BELIEVE in a god" they are NOT Agnostics, they are Atheists! An Agnostic believes there is absolutely NO way to KNOW if there is a god or not. As I believe there is NO way for me to KNOW it there is a god or not, I AM an Agnostic. An Atheist believes there is insufficient evidence to BELIEVE in one, or more gods. As I have never found any evidence what-so-ever one, or more, gods exist, I AM ALSO an Atheist. Thus, I AM an Agnostic Atheist. While I've convinced some Atheists / Agnostics to join me in identifying themselves as being BOTH an Agnostic & an Atheist at the SAME time, I have also met some who figured it out on their own before we ever met. ------------------------- A "thinking" Christian (Oh boy, what an oxymoron that is) would state they were an Agnostic Christian. As there is NO way for them to KNOW if there is a Christian God or not AND they BELIEVE there is. I actually met a Christian who was bright and logical enough to call himself an "Agnostic Christian" (Sure wish I could remember who it was.) | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.208 |
Chesed, While I am one of the fortunate ones who the sun does not really screw up, I do (now) use sun screen. When I was young and a lifeguard, (during the summers at the city pool in Grand Junction, Co. and at the Atlantis Hotel in Miami Beach, Fl.) we did not use sun screen at all. In fact, in our stupidity, we did the opposite, we put Mercurochrome (for color) in Baby Oil and used it. Thus, I am so lucky I am not a walking case of skin cancer. IF you are in the LA area and play Volleyball or like the beach, come on down. Check out the sun, sea, surf, dolphins and the opposite sex. Opps, time to go help get "Arnold" re-elected. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3797 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.55.183.51 |
ncr: you are so full of it! You are programmed and full of venomous poison of lies. The only way to deny the existence of your own soul and God, your Creator, is to be programmed. Brainwashed! You are so in love with yourself and your sins that you can not love anyone else or your God within. Atheism is the ultimate of living in denial. Denial of truth, Denial of one's soul and denial of your Creator. You want proof of God? Look within! Look to your soul! | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
ncr, Nice to hear from you again. Funny you mentioned an agnostic Christian...never really thought a Christian could be agnostic due to their dogmas, but you mentioned that particular Christian was bright and logical. I know of a very intelligent agnostic Jew. I could even go so far as to say that all Jews are agnostic. (that one may come back to bite me) because Jews are encouraged to learn, question, think for themselves. The Talmud is just one example of a questioning of G-d and the why the world is the way G-d made it. There are times in all people's lives when they may question whether there really is a god. We have an amazing brain that we were given free will to use at it's utmost potential. Too bad so many just read the literal word of their bible, without any more interpretation or questioning past what their pastor says. Oh, and to stay on topic, I never have seen in the yellow pages an ad for an athiest place of worship. Athiesm is not a religion. It's just a particular system of beliefs. It has good and bad sides to it, just as any religion does, since we are all human. Thanks for the invite to the LA area. I may bring the family up there one day to check out the scene! | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Franklin, IF you saying I am full of it means anything I have said about myself is not true. Given sufficient resources and time EVERYTHING I have said about myself can be PROVEN, by others testimony and/or by documentation, TRUE. On the other hand, YOU, (or anyone else) given all the time and all the resources there are, or ever have been, could NOT PROVE anything I have said about myself to be false. IF you are referring to my comments on religion, who cares what you think as you are just another clueless programmed religious robot on that subject. And, if it about knowledge in general, You are right, I am most probably FULL of a LOT more KNOWLEDGE than YOU are. (Of course, the more one knows, the more they realize, when compared to what there is to know, how little they know.) Aside from that, you are just another one of the millions of Programmed Religious Robots. One who is unable to use common sense, logic or knowledge when you are on the subject of your religion. (And I would guess you are unable to on at least some, if not many other subjects as well. You poor little thing!) Therefore, I'm not going to waste any more time with you as it as big a waste as attempting to show bin laden the error of his ways. Franklin and bin laden, just two Programmed Religious Robots, two peas in a pod. ----------------------------------------- Chesed, I was looking at some Atheist websites and found a young lady who said she was an Agnostic Atheist and another who was posting in "Tribes" who said the same thing. And I did, before, read of a guy before who said he was an Agnostic Jew. I do not have enough knowledge of the Jewish religion to comment one way or the other about ALL Jews being Agnostics. As far as your coming to So. Cal. I think, weather wise, Sept and Oct. are our best two months. And in Oct. my most favorite city, Manhattan Beach, has a great, 2 day, home town fair. One of the main reasons I really love this fair is I have never seen (and I've been around a LOT.) a single 5 block area with as many truly great looking women in it at one time in my life. (And you can look even with a family) Please, Take Care!!! Neil | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 364 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
Shalom chesed I know of a very intelligent agnostic Jew. I could even go so far as to say that all Jews are agnostic. (that one may come back to bite me) because Jews are encouraged to learn, question, think for themselves. The Talmud is just one example of a questioning of G-d and the why the world is the way G-d made it. Well, I wouldn’t define being an agnostic as just asking questions. I don’t think asking questions to G-d is the same as questioning G-d’s existence. Asking “Why me, G-d?” is addressing G-d, not dismissing Him. We have a different relationship to G-d than Christians seem to. Throughout our bible and our schooling, we are taught to question. We see it as deepening our relationship to G-d. From my experience of speaking and posting to Christians, they seem to regard questions as a disbelief to their god. The terms Jewish Agnostic and Christian Agnostic have different meanings as well. To be a Jew means having a Jewish mother (ignoring the convert for this discussion), it is a matter of birth. To be a Christian requires having a belief in their god. So a Jew can be an agnostic by being uncertain of G-d’s existence. But, the agnostic Jew is still a Jew. However, if a “Christian” person is uncertain if G-d exists, then they don’t have a belief. What is left to define them as Christian? | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Yaakov, I believe in G-d. But I may hold my belief in a way different than even another Jew. And I feel it's okay to ask questions to, of, and about G-d and it in no way dismisses G-d. You are so correct about any questioning of G-d to many Christians being almost paramount to sin. And in this FactNet forum, any questioning of their particular so-called church is also sin. Poor souls. The question of Judaism as a culture or a religion or both has always interested me. I am not sure where I stand there, although I've learned some curious things about that of late. Thank you for sharing your ideas about it. Being only partly tongue-in-cheek, if a religiously "Christian" person is uncertain G-d exists, then what they want to have left to define them is "American", otherwise known as culturally Christian. They sure are on a push to make the American culture theirs alone. Just to share with you.... I am sure you're aware of the prayer in the Siddur about G-d as ruler. "Adonai melech, Adonai malach, Adonai yim'loch l'olam vaed" It's my favorite. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 366 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
chesed You are so correct about any questioning of G-d to many Christians being almost paramount to sin. And in this FactNet forum, any questioning of their particular so-called church is also sin. Poor souls. Yes, I feel sorry for them. G-d meant us to question, but as soon as they do, they have to mentally “pinch” themselves to stop it. I can’t imagine doing that for a lifetime. Just to share with you.... I am sure you're aware of the prayer in the Siddur about G-d as ruler. "A____ melech, A____ malach, A___ yim'loch l'olam vaed" It's my favorite. Yikes!  Thanks for sharing. But, I’ve got to point something out that you don’t seem aware of. We don’t spell out G-d’s name as a mark of respect. All this data is temporal and can be deleted at any time. As you know, it is forbidden to erase G-d’s name. However, the Hebrew word you used above is even more holy. Even in siddurs, it is spelled as double yod, not phonetically. If you are going to follow the traditions by using G dash D, then it is even more important not to spell out the A word. My favorite is Alvenu Malkaynu. I like the melody, plus the rhyming. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 455 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
yaakov: You certainly got that right about many Christian churches but certainly not all and I don’t even think most. I think maybe their faith is very shallow, afraid to question or test anything. To me, this pushes those churches into the “cultic” box. Somehow, I was taught just the opposite. My father taught me to question all, but I am pretty sure he was a believer. I have no problem questioning my faith and especially interpretation, and like you, I actually feel sorry for those who can’t. They find it virtually impossible to have a dialog with anyone with differing views without it being an affront to their belief. It is too bad, they miss a lot. The G-d vs God thing seems silly to me. When written as G-d, the dash clearly stands for an “o” sound just like the G stands for the “g” sound. Letters are just symbols that stand for something. Whether or not you use the vowel, it stands for the same thing. Out of respect though, when I am on a Jewish site, I always use the dash. I notice on those sites, they usually use an X in the place of “Christ” as in xians. I know this offends many Christians and I think that is silly too. In my mind, God is not so self absorbed to be concerned about such trivial matters. By the way, yes, I am getting used to reading backwards, or is that forwards??? I guess the left to right came later in history didn’t it! Remind me of a time I was in Britain when a certain fellow asked me, “when are you yanks going to go with the rest of the world and start using the metric system?” I told him, “as soon as you Brits start driving on the “right” side of the road.” He had a good laugh and said it might be a long time. So, yaakov, when are you Jews going to start reading from left to right?  | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Yes, I guess I may have goofed in that. Yet I know many wonderful religious Jews who do not even use a dash. We do not even know what G-d's name is, no? So it may not be too awful to write the human names of G-d, for we don't even know what it is. Maybe the only reason G-d has a name is because of us humans. Yes, ba2, the little rituals of each religion can seem silly, I agree. Never writing G-d's name is so that G-d's name will never be destroyed, yet it is impossible to destroy G-d. I believe Yaakov is more conservative than me, and I am sure he knows more of the customs than I do too. Ba2, I am glad you are enjoying the Tanakh. Lots of good stories in there. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 462 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
chesed: I’ve read the books of Moses a number of times but mainly the KJV version, and sometimes I have trouble making sense of it. I personally don’t like the KJV but my wife is a “KJV only” advocate. Because of her bent, I still need to use the KJV as our primary book, and I know she would accept a Jewish version, but probably not the Stone edition which is the one I have. I find it fairly easy to use and although I feel that all bibles were corrupted to some degree, I also feel that a good Jewish version probably has the best chance of being interpreted correctly. Unlike many on this site, I believe the stories are God’s words spoken in human terms of the day, mainly metaphors, nothing more. And I feel it is impossible to literally interpret writings that are that old perfectly. The trick is to sort out what is descriptive vs prescriptive with the descriptive not being God’s words but rather some history with the words and commands being those of Moses. Moses was busy building a nation and I believed used anything within his power to attain his goal, including lying about what God may have told him. This has always been a common tactict throughout history. I know this might be considered blasphemous to many, but you seem like a reasonable person and I wanted you to know where I was on this. I have come to respect yaakov’s insight (even though he strongly disagrees with my take on Moses) and am appreciating yours as well. No, I have no interest in converting but sometimes I get the feeling that the Jews may be the only ones that are getting it right. Have a great day | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 367 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
ba2 Thank you for the compliments. And I feel it is impossible to literally interpret writings that are that old perfectly. The trick is to sort out what is descriptive vs prescriptive with the descriptive not being God’s words but rather some history with the words and commands being those of Moses. How do we know that the symbol for the Hebrew letter “mem” is called a mem and is pronounced as “m”? How do we know that the letter mem must be drawn differently at the end of a word and still has the same pronunciation? The answer is that our knowledge and learning is passed down the generations from teachers. Our Tanakh hasn’t changed, so all the teachers use the same book. The learning started with G-d instructing Moses who instructed the tribal leaders. All of them witnessed G-d at Sinai, it wasn’t just Moses who got a personal revelation. This learning has been consistent for millennia. We know which parts of the Torah are plain meaning and which are metaphor. We've applied and lived by the Torah for generations. Moses was busy building a nation and I believed used anything within his power to attain his goal, including lying about what God may have told him. If that were true, then he would have been forgotten long ago. He never attained that goal, never even made it to the promised land. This has always been a common tactict throughout history. True. But it wouldn’t work with Moses. The entire tribe of Israel saw G-d at Mount Sinai. Every leader was required to make one copy of the Torah (This is in Deuteronomy, I think). But, Torahs haven’t diverged. Each copy is the same as another. If you theorize that the original Torah was changed from G-d’s words, then you basically have to trash the entire thing. In order to cherry-pick the parts that you think are lies, then each person would cherry-pick different parts. Hmmmm….course if that was done, then each group would try to write their own “true” version and we would still have multiple versions of the bible. Since that hasn’t happened, then that theory is incorrect also. The only way that the tribe of Israel would continue to copy and re-copy with any editing being forbidden, is a generational belief that the entire Torah is completely true. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 465 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
yaakov: you said, “Our Tanakh hasn’t changed, so all the teachers use the same book. The learning started with G-d instructing Moses who instructed the tribal leaders. All of them witnessed G-d at Sinai, it wasn’t just Moses who got a personal revelation...” later you said, “The entire tribe of Israel saw G-d at Mount Sinai.” I never saw that anywhere. In fact, that is very contrary to what I understand. Can you give me a citation for that? You said, “If that were true (that Moses lied), then he would have been forgotten long ago. He never attained that goal, never even made it to the promised land.” Moses was doing everything he could to motivate his people. I don’t think lying is beneath any human. The fact that he didn’t make it is not relevant. Maybe he never made it to the promised land because he embellished on the truth. You said, “If you theorize that the original Torah was changed from G-d’s words, then you basically have to trash the entire thing.” Here we must respectfully disagree. Actually, I believe God’s words are there, but there are other words as well. As you know, I believe anything written during Moses time, and for a few generations after, had to be written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. The Phoenicians are given credit with the invention of the written alphabet upon which Hebrew is based, and it came hundred’s of years after Moses. So the books of Moses are actually the stories of Moses. Somewhere, someone wrote the first book upon which all copies have been made, and yes, I’m sure they were very meticulous. I would think it was even well after Jacob’s time. Whoever wrote the books simply re-stated the stories of Moses. You said, “The only way that the tribe of Israel would continue to copy and re-copy with any editing being forbidden, is a generational belief that the entire Torah is completely true.” Yes, I agree that almost everyone thought it was completely true. | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 128 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
ba2, I have not studied for as many years as Yaakov. He does have lots of knowledge and is willing to share. I am not sure of your differences about Moses, yet I have a particular take on him. As a mother, I can better relate to Moses as a parental figure. He was responsible for all the Hebrews, all of whom were recently freed slaves, adolescents in their behaviors with G-d. G-d was a new concept to them, after living in the pagan and sexually open environments of the Egyptians. To conform to G-d's new "rules" was not easy for the newly-freed slaves. I understand that Moses as a parental figure will not explain everything. Yet I can relate to him best in that way. As a parent, I admit to stretching the truth to attain my goals. My goals are always to better my children, to teach them something, to ensure they learn a certain concept. Moses may have done that. He had it real tough, not just two kids like me, but 40,000 of them! WOW! I believe the Torah are true, G-d inspired stories. Jews have felt no need to alter it because it is true. Shalom. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 467 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
chesed: I appreciate being able to discuss some of these things without anyone getting bent out of shape. And these are the things that I can’t discuss with my fundamentalist church members. They think, since the bible is God inspired, it must be perfect, word for word with no chance for error and/or corruption. I believe men are always capable of mistakes and corruption. Nevertheless, I agree that the bible contains God’s message, unlike you, I also believe the NT contains it as well. But I also believe the entire bible (both Jewish and Christian)is filled with errors, some intentional, and the errors started even before there was a written Hebrew language. My take on Moses is just one point. I totally agree with you on your take about a parent stretching the truth to a child and how you related that to Moses and his people. That is my point. He would have said what ever he needed to motivate them. Think about it, supposedly, God ordered the killing of entire tribes (nations), every man, woman and child, (but the men could keep the virgins for themselves). They would rape and pillage everything they could but they had to give a portion of everything they looted (including young women) to the Levite priests (this looks like intentional corruption). For one example of what was to happen to the Midianites, read Numbers Chapter 31. These are clear motivational tactics; the soldiers risk their life under God’s orders and get booty and virgins as a reward. Quite frankly, I just don’t believe God ordered anyone to break his commandments. So, in my opinion, the bible contains truth but it is mixed in with some corruption. Some of the stories are more of a historical nature, ie. Moses told everyone that God told him to do certain things. So man’s law (Moses) was seen as God’s law. Anyway, this is my take. Shalom. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 369 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
ba2 All of them witnessed G-d at Sinai, it wasn’t just Moses who got a personal revelation...” and “The entire tribe of Israel saw G-d at Mount Sinai.” I never saw that anywhere. In fact, that is very contrary to what I understand. Can you give me a citation for that? Deut 4:9-15: 9. But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, and you shall make them known to your children and to your children's children, 10. the day you stood before the Lord your G-d at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, "Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11. And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness. 12. The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice. 13. And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets. 14. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess. 15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. The Torah is claiming that the entire nation of Israel witnessed G-d’s revelation at Mount Sinai. Do you seriously think so many people would accept such a story if it never happened? See the link at the bottom. The fact that he didn’t make it is not relevant. Maybe he never made it to the promised land because he embellished on the truth. I don’t understand the point you are trying to make. It seems like you are trying to parse the bible somehow into true and false sections. It is what it is. You can’t simply disbelieve some sections because they don’t line up with your expectations. So the books of Moses are actually the stories of Moses. Somewhere, someone wrote the first book upon which all copies have been made, and yes, I’m sure they were very meticulous. I would think it was even well after Jacob’s time. Whoever wrote the books simply re-stated the stories of Moses. Well, we’ve disagreed on this before. Your position is against history. The Muslims and the Christians obviously believed it. They attempted to incorporate it into their religions instead of disregarding it. Tell me what you think of this article. National Revelation And these are the things that I can’t discuss with my fundamentalist church members. I’m sorry that you can’t discuss religion with your own church. I’m serious, I feel sadness for you. They think, since the bible is God inspired, it must be perfect, word for word with no chance for error and/or corruption. The bible is not literal. It is a book for living, not a history or science book. But I also believe the entire bible (both Jewish and Christian)is filled with errors, some intentional, and the errors started even before there was a written Hebrew language. Well…I agree with you regarding the Christian bible. So, in my opinion, the bible contains truth but it is mixed in with some corruption. You are entitled to your opinion. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 470 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
yaakov: Yes, sometimes Hollywood gets in the way. I know of your citations but I never interpreted it as everyone getting the entire books of Moses directly from God. I thought it was just some of the facts, like the commandments, with Moses giving the greater detail. If you go a few lines earlier it says in Deut 4: 5 “Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, as the Lord, my God, commanded me, to do so in the midst of the land to which you are coming to possess.” So it is Moses speaking to the people and further in line 8, Moses gives everyone the Torah. You said, “I don’t understand the point you are trying to make. It seems like you are trying to parse the bible somehow into true and false sections.” Yes, I am trying to figure out what parts are true and what parts are embellishments or in some cases maybe outright corruption. “You can’t simply disbelieve some sections because they don’t line up with your expectations.” It’s not just my expectations; it’s my trying to make sense of it. You said, “Well, we’ve disagreed on this before. Your position is against history. The Muslims and the Christians obviously believed it. They attempted to incorporate it into their religions instead of disregarding it.” Well not all Christians believe the stories literally or even historically. My guess is that most Christians see the stories figuratively, however, we generally see the extremists at factnet. “Tell me what you think of this article. National Revelation” I thought it was very interesting, especially the concept of reading and figuring it out for yourself. I have been told of the national revelation concept on another website and have been thinking more about it. This is dangerous territory for an open minded Christian. I’ll probably have another look at it later when I have more time to digest it. You said, “I’m sorry that you can’t discuss religion with your own church. I’m serious, I feel sadness for you.” Yes, they are very closed minded. I could only discuss scripture if I agree with their interpretation. You said, “Well…I agree with you regarding the Christian bible. (regarding corruption)” Well, yaakov … you are half way there. Seriously, I appreciate your sincerity and ability to respond to tough questions which are probably very contrary to your beliefs. Thanks for responding. | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.192 |
Come on Guys, You should KNOW the odds are are about 99.9999999% the ONLY reason you believe in the god and/or religion you do is because of who raised you. And had you been raised to believe in another religion and/or god you would. Had you been raised to believe in the MANY gods of the Hindus you would do so with just as strong a belief as you have for whatever god you believe in now. And had you been raised an Atheist OR had you, as MULTI-MILLIONS of former Jews and Christians have, DE-PROGRAMMED yourself, you would not believe in any god, or gods at all. As I have said more than a few times before, humans have INVENTED over 30,000 DIFFERENT gods SO FAR and there is NO PROOF for ANY of them. NONE, ZERO, NADA, ZIP PROOF! The ONLY place ANY god exists are in the fables, the myths and the MINDS of you believers. NONE actually exist in the REAL world! NO GOD HAS EVER DONE A DAMN THING! All religious things which do get done are done due to the efforts of those who believe. (Both the Good and the Bad.) Were there actually a god or gods, it is THEIR fault we Atheists do not believe in them as they have failed to provide us with sufficient proof of their existence. That is proof which would convince a Non Programmed open-minded, intelligent and rational person. Does anyone ask: "Do you BELIEVE in the SUN? Of course not. The sun is not a function of belief, it is a function of fact. IF there actually WAS an all powerful god, or gods, it would be just as apparent as as the sun is. There would be NO NEED for "mere belief". RELIGION IS JUST MYTH INFORMATION! By the way, as far as I know, the Bible tells you NOT to KILL two (2) times while it tells you TO KILL TWENTY EIGHT (28) TIMES. Bible believers are supposed TO KILL me, ALL Atheists, ALL members of ANY other religions and others as well. And I am supposed to have respect for a religion which tells it's believers to kill me? I think not. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3803 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.47 |
Spoken like the true programmed atheist hate spewing robot that you are ncr. Man has to be programmed to deny and hate God. To deny the very existence of one's soul. And you are heavily programmed ncr. Every word you write comes from the standard atheist dogma. You prove that atheism is a religion by your parroting atheism propaganda. Not an original thought among any of you. So where did Christ tell me to kill you dingleberry? Never! You liar! Am I supposed to have respect for your atheist religion that it's sole purpose is to deny my beliefs? Deprive me of my rights to believe as I wish? Atheism is nothing but lies and you are a liar! Get deprogrammed and find your soul. There you will find God. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.49 |
"You should KNOW the odds are are about 99.9999999% the ONLY reason you believe in the god and/or religion you do is because of who raised you. " As a former believer I can tell you this is something Christians do not wish to contemplate. I can only speak for myself when I tell you the obvious truth about a indigenous religion's affect on someone's religious choice giving me a lot of trouble as a Christian. The standard rationalizations are that Christian's are individually “chosen” by God or some form of predestination. I don't think an honest person can dismiss the problem just like that however. This was the beginning of my realization that faith is intellectual dishonesty and that to be truly free of delusion you have to brutally honest with yourself about “wishful thinking” and “reality.” ”Bible believers are supposed TO KILL me, ALL Atheists, ALL members of ANY other religions and others as well. “ I don't know about killing, but the Bible tells Christian's to give nonbelievers the cold shoulder. 2 John 1:9-11 and 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3805 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.47 |
t.o. you were never a Christian. You just went through the motions like some do. Never having a spiritual experience with God like many do. If you had you would be a believer. You are suffering from delusion now. The delusion that there is no God. If it is wrong for Christians to believe what they are taught by their parents then it must be wrong also for an atheist to believe the atheist dogma their atheist parents told them. That is such crap. That all Christians just blindly accept what they are taught by their parents. Most of us know God personally in our hearts. We see God move in this world around us. You are the exception. You did blindly accept what you were taught but did not experience God for yourself because you were and still are too full of yourself. When you learn to love yourself a little bit less and truly yearn for knowledge of God, it will come to you. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 442 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
trained: but Jesus himself gave us the golden rule. Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. And love thy neighbor as thyself. This is the Christianity I follow. I believe the orders of killing or the non-tolerance beliefs are part of the corruption or misinterpretations found in the bible. In 2 John 1:5 Now I beg you, dear lady, not as though I wrote to you a new commandment, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. This was a letter to a lady who was a friend of the Church, some scholars think a deacon or minister who let traveling evangelists stay in her home. She was being told to beware of false teachers. So when he later told her not to let the non-believers in her home, John was referring to the false teachers who were not preaching the true words. He was probably referring to many of the bible thumpers of the day who were passing themselves off as Christian teachers. These are the dangerous ones to the faith, the ones who claim to be Christian but teach non-scriptural things as being important. These are the legalist literal fundamentalists of today. In 2 Corr 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. Unequally yoked is a term to describe something pulling you away from your belief. It doesn’t suggest you shouldn’t spend friendly time with them. The atheists I personally know never bring up faith or lack of it. It just isn’t in their conversation, so they are never a threat to my belief. And even if they do comment on some silly religious dogma, I know where they are coming from. The bible thumpers I know do threaten my belief as they actively try to instill false concepts in my mind. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 360 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
Oy! I was having a nice quiet conversation with ba2 and chesed. Now it seems that a herd of elephants has just charged in. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 361 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
ba2 I believe the orders of killing or the non-tolerance beliefs are part of the corruption or misinterpretations found in the bible. Ah ha! Is this it for you? When you said that, you believe that certain parts of the bible were false, were you referring to these parts? Just speculating (and a whole lotta “ifs”)…I’ve heard some Christians say that G-d is Love. If you believe that too, does this “Love deity” clash with the parts that have G-d ordering killings? If so, how can you be sure that G-d is Love? Maybe those are the false parts and the truth is that G-d is Vengeance. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1676 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.58 |
”but Jesus himself gave us the golden rule. Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. “ The “golden rule” predates Jesus Christ just as “virgin birth” and “resurrections” do. The whole business is hardly original. Look it up. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3808 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.47 |
ooooo! That was so original t.o. oooooo! Typical atheist handbook response. You have an unoriginal response for every truth that is spoken. Problem is that people will decide for themselves who speaks the real truth. Wormfood like you or a man who has a soul. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 444 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
trained: OK, others said it too, so what? And yes, I know all about Mithraism. I brought that up in numerous conversations many months ago. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 446 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
yaakov: Heard of elephants? That’s what we get for starting that discussion on an atheist thread. What you suggested is a big part, but it’s not just that. For one, there is a contradiction to command no killing and then command killing (innocent children included), it doesn’t make sense. And I certainly hope God is not a God of vengeance, because I’m afraid I would be doomed. I pray that my God is a God of tolerance, forgiveness, and mercy. From talking to historians, I have learned that it is pretty much impossible to get complete understanding form ancient writings. Basic thought, yes, but not complete understandings. So there is much to interpret. And you know my take on the history of the written language, which makes accurate interpretation even more difficult. Anyway, our discussion was nice while it lasted. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 363 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
ba2 Heard of elephants? That’s what we get for starting that discussion on an atheist thread. LOL. You’re right, we are actually the intruders on this thread. For one, there is a contradiction to command no killing and then command killing (innocent children included), it doesn’t make sense. Ah. I once had a long discussion with TO on this subject. The keystone that we defined was whether G-d is subject to the Laws that He gave to mankind. Arguments can be made pro and con about this point. The answers acceptable to each person would depend on how you define and view G-d. From talking to historians, I have learned that it is pretty much impossible to get complete understanding form ancient writings. Basic thought, yes, but not complete understandings. So there is much to interpret. And you know my take on the history of the written language, which makes accurate interpretation even more difficult. It’s funny, I recently asked a sage this question. He told me that Ancient Hebrew does pre-date the bible. But again, Judaism believes that accurate translations were made to modern Hebrew. This makes it even worse for the Greek Testament though. There were no Christians back then. If you say that even the Tanakh was corrupted through erroneous translation, then what was the basis of the Greek Testament? It is even more of a “crap-shot” of figuring out the “true” text. As I said before, for all you know, perhaps G-d delights in killing and all the few parts of talking about not killing were inserted in to make G-d seem kinder. Maybe G-d wanted everybody to sleep with everybody and some person slipped the word “not” in there. That is the difficulty of trying to decide which parts of true and which are false. Every person will have their own opinion and thus, their own bible. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1677 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.58 |
Well first off here, I want to say I have no reason to believe that you are a dishonest person, in fact you seem very frank and honest. ”OK, others said it too, so what? “ My point was that contrary to what you said, Jesus did not give us the golden rule. This is a good example of intellectual dishonesty operating in faith. You statement that “...Jesus himself gave us the golden rule” is a myth. Although you knew that the golden predates Christ, your religious faith had you speaking about a myth as though they were fact. This is the sort of thing that began to bother me as a Christian. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3810 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.47 |
No t.o. the thing that bothered you about being a Christian was that you knew you were not a Christian. You knew you were a counterfeit. You were just going through the motions. Just as spiritually dead as you are today. God did not know you then as God does not know you now. Never had a relationship with God. Jealous that you did not so in your angst you falsely accuse those who walk in the sunshine of God's love as being delusional. But alas, it is you that is delusional. An empty shell of a man who despises all that God has created in this world. An ungrateful child who spits in the face of God. One day you will know the truth and you will see that all this time you have rejected and slandered God has been your wasted years. May God breathe life into your soul. But still it is up to you to make the first move. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 447 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
yaacov: I would think that God is not subject to the laws, but I don’t believe he would confuse everyone on this point by ordering the breaking of the law. You have to start at some point of reference. For me, it is that God is forgiving and loving. I believe he loves all humankind, regardless of their faith, just like a parent loves their children, regardless of most of their behaviors. And I think you can get the general feel as you read through the whole thing and you find the truth by eliminating what doesn’t make sense with that basic premise in mind. This is where you can find truth. So how do I reconcile the ordered killing? Simple, this was Moses law, not God’s, no matter what Moses said. When there are differences in interpretation and when those differences do not conflict with core elements of the faith, I feel you have to incorporate scientific understanding and knowledge into the interpretation. This gets many literalists in trouble. So science strongly suggests that the earth is billions of years old and mankind is millions. By seeing the stories as metaphors, parables, similes, and idioms, I can interpret scripture without conflict and this I believe is true throughout the OT and NT. You said: “If you say that even the Tanakh was corrupted through erroneous translation, then what was the basis of the Greek Testament? It is even more of a “crap-shot” of figuring out the “true” text.” Exactly, but again, I think you can get at the basic truth by reading the basic ideas presented within the basic point of reference. You said, “Every person will have their own opinion and thus, their own bible.” That’s why I say you have to keep it very simple. Find the core elements and allow for everyone to interpret everything else in their own way. I love the Moravian church motto: "In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; and in all things, love." | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 118 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
I have a wonderful old Christian friend, who means the world to me, who helped me birth my firstborn cuz her dad said that was woman's business, who once said to me that the G-d of the "Old Testament" is a mean G-d, and the G-d of the New Testament is the loving G-d. Her basic thinking based on her Christianity is why she said it; there was no intentional malice or evangelizing on her part to me, as a Jew. But this question of a tough, mean, hard hearted G-d versus a loving, forgiving, kind G-d is very interesting. Of course, we are discussing this in the midst of a herd of elephants. But we'll be okay. Yaakov, you may be able to better explain the basic beginning phrase to most of our prayers that refers to G-d in two ways. (Baruch atah A_____, El______, melech....) The two ways include a tough, judgemental G-d and a loving, kind G-d. To say the Jewish G-d is mean is way too simplified and only goes to prop up a Christians beliefs of "their" New Testament G-d, namely Jesus. But that does not surprise me. It does sadden me that a Christian cannot read the "Old Testament" without seeing the loving and kind characteristics of G-d. And why would G-d only be loving and kind? I love the parent/child analogies because I can relate so well. And I know if my actions were interpreted by my children as only loving and kind, I am doing them a great disservice. I know better than my kids what is loving and kind. They might think my insistence of getting homework done before playing is mean and tough, but I know it is the loving and kind thing to do for them. I could go on and on, but this is long enough and my dear man is home from a long day at work and I want to be with him instead of FactNet. | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 370 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 63.249.99.98 |
Hi chesed "... this question of a tough, mean, hard hearted G-d versus a loving, forgiving, kind G-d is very interesting." That is very close to the crux of the matter for me. There is so much disagreement among the differing Christen sects concerning this very issue that being 'a-theological' frees me up to believe/not believe what serves me best at any given time. * | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 364 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
chesed I have a wonderful old Christian friend, who means the world to me, who helped me birth my firstborn cuz her dad said that was woman's business, who once said to me that the G-d of the "Old Testament" is a mean G-d, and the G-d of the New Testament is the loving G-d. Her basic thinking based on her Christianity is why she said it; there was no intentional malice or evangelizing on her part to me, as a Jew. Given that Christians always try to convince us Jews that we both worship the same god(s), it is odd that your friend would be the one to differentiate these two entities. But this question of a tough, mean, hard hearted G-d versus a loving, forgiving, kind G-d is very interesting. Your parent concept works well in this regard. Parents make their kids eat vegetables, go to bed early, and get vaccination shots (Ow!). While kids may think that parents are being mean, the parents are working in their kids best interests. Anyways, to describe G-d as mean is to emphasize the wrathful parts and to ignore the merciful parts. G-d isn’t mean or nice. G-d simply is. The adjectives are just our limited perceptions. G-d wants what is in our best interests. Sometimes that doesn’t coincide with what we think our best interests are. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 365 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
ba2 You have to start at some point of reference. A valid point. It sounds like the crux of the issue to me. And I think you can get the general feel as you read through the whole thing and you find the truth by eliminating what doesn’t make sense with that basic premise in mind. And you don’t see any dilemmas here?? 1) Which whole thing, whose bible do you start with your premises? 2) A “General feel” is subjective and individual. 3) Basic premise? Given the hundreds of Christian denominations and the difficulty of defining commonality between them, I think they have different premises. If eliminating parts that you don’t like works for you, go for it. My point of reference is that the entire bible is holy, even the “mean” parts. By seeing the stories as metaphors, parables, similes, and idioms, I can interpret scripture without conflict and this I believe is true throughout the OT and NT. Could you do this for the “mean” parts instead of deleting them? | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 452 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
yaakov: You said, “And you don’t see any dilemmas here??” Sure I do, I’m not perfect but maybe it will come to me in time. You said, “1) Which whole thing, whose bible do you start with your premises?” The truth is probably imbedded in all versions, as long as I don’t take them literally. You said, “2) A “General feel” is subjective and individual.” Yes it is. But the general feel is the only truth which will be consistent. These are the parts I can truly trust. You said, “3) Basic premise? Given the hundreds of Christian denominations and the difficulty of defining commonality between them, I think they have different premises.” Exactly, I never realized how serious this was until I became involved in a literal legalistic fundamentalist church and found further information here on factnet. Personally, I believe there are very few requirements for a Christian, but well meaning men put there own spin on interpretation and decided that they knew better than anyone else what God was trying to say. So the church has become very fragmented with very little truth in most of them. In fact, I think many are not Christian at all. I say, Follow the golden rule and you are saved, Christian or not. But to be a Christian, of course you must believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. You said, “If eliminating parts that you don’t like works for you, go for it.” That’s just what I am doing. ba2 said, “By seeing the stories as metaphors, parables, similes, and idioms, I can interpret scripture without conflict and this I believe is true throughout the OT and NT.” and you asked, “Could you do this for the “mean” parts instead of deleting them?” Yes, if I could make sense of the contradictions I could probably keep those parts in. For example, the parting of the sea probably happened, but not like we saw in Hollywood. I read a scientific report about the Red Sea which suggested that with the correct tidal and wind conditions, it could have happened within nature, including the swallowing up of the advancing army. Also, the world wide flood was probably the entire known world of Noah. And the six days were six time periods or maybe just a statement to indicate that life did not happen by accident. So, I can pretty much reconcile the scientific discrepancies. But I have a real difficult time with the contradiction of do not kill with the command of killing others, including innocent children. Worst yet, the go ahead for the soldiers to keep the virgins for themselves suggesting rape is ok. This fits perfect with the common practice of nearly all ancient armies. It makes perfect sense to me that this was man’s (Moses) command, not God’s, but that the commander said it was God’s command. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 366 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.192.99.67 |
For example, the parting of the sea probably happened, but not like we saw in Hollywood. ROFL Definitely not like Hollywood. I’m not aware of anything they’ve made about the bible which was even close to accurate. But I have a real difficult time with the contradiction of do not kill with the command of killing others, including innocent children. Worst yet, the go ahead for the soldiers to keep the virgins for themselves suggesting rape is ok. This fits perfect with the common practice of nearly all ancient armies. It makes perfect sense to me that this was man’s (Moses) command, not God’s, but that the commander said it was God’s command. Well…we’ve pretty much beaten our topic to death and made our respective positions clear. If you want, go ahead and post some biblical references to your “contradictions” above. We can discuss if you’d like. Though I can almost guess how our discussion will go. Since we both have different starting reference points, when you see a contradiction I won’t. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 454 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
yaakov: I think you are right. ... and it is nice to be able to respectfully disagree. That is what this forum should be about. | ||
| ncr Member Username: ncr Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.240.206.196 |
Franklin, your a clueless •••! Thinking you are so superior to anyone who WAS a Christian who then DE-PROGRAMMED themselves. Saying they were never a Christian because YOU ARE TOO STUPID to be able to grasp the concept it is possible. (Not only possible, millions have done it.) People like you are one of the main reasons so many others LEAVE the Christian religion. F.Y.I. for the rest of you there were NINE Golden Rules in existence BEFORE the Christians claimed they came up with it. The BIBLE DOES TELL YOU TO KILL ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT Christians! And it tells you to kill a lot of other people as well. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3876 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.47 |
Hey ncr! Spoken like a truly programmed, canned cliche filled, atheist propagandist! None of what you say is true. Do you really think that Christians are going to just read your attacks on them and their faith and no one is going to respond? You always get so fired up and feisty when God's truth is spoken to you. God's truth has that effect on anti Christians. It's telling you that despite how many bags of canned, cliched atheist propaganda diatribes you throw up here on our screen you will not defeat God's truth. There is a God. You have a soul. Your soul is your connection to God. God wants you to be with Him. Go where love is. | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1881 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
It's funny how someone can throw a lure in the water and some sturgeon always comes up for a bite. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3877 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.47 |
bw, You spoke that like a truly skilled atheist troll. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1693 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.31 |
"(Not only possible, millions have done it.) " The website Ex-Christian.net documents many cases of people freeing themselves from Christianity. It is a well put together site with a forum and the whole nine-yards. Check it out. http://exchristian.net/ The facts are that many pastors, preachers, priests, and what have you have left the church and become stern critics of it throughout history. To ignore reality does not change it. To not acknowledge truth that is unwelcome is self delusion. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1152 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 70.16.213.73 |
To not acknowledge truth that is unwelcome is self delusion. so what "truth" are we not acknowleging. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1694 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.31 |
"so what "truth" are we not acknowleging." That many "real Christians" who were totally committed to Christ at one time leave the faith after reconsidering the evidence. I thought the preceeding sentence, "The facts are that many pastors, preachers, priests, and what have you have left the church and become stern critics of it throughout history." made that clear. The whole "you weren't a real Christian" if you left the faith is just a lie fundamentalists are telling themselves. Another self-delusionary lie is that Christianity isn't a "religion". | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1153 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 70.16.213.73 |
I thought the preceeding sentence...made that clear. only in your own mind. so tell me, what is this so called evidence. it would have to be irrefutible for it to make an impact that strong. either tht or the people that left had other reasons and just used these things to justify what they did. so tell me TO, what was your irrefutable evidence that justified abandoning your faith? | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1696 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.35 |
"so tell me TO, what was your irrefutable evidence that justified abandoning your faith?" 1. The absolute non-existence of any creditable evidence for the existence of the supernatural. 2. The total and complete failure of the promises of scripture. That is the evidence of my personal experience of seeking god for 30+ years. I got to a point in my life where I just couldn't justify compartmentalizing my thinking to the point where I was a rational technically oriented individual who used science daily on one hand and then a person who believed in invisible beings engaged in spiritual warfare over souls in the other. It's just that simple. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1154 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 70.16.213.73 |
That is the evidence of my personal experience of seeking god for 30+ years. so this is your irrefutable evidence? you think that everyones personal experience is the same as yours therefore, everyone should abandon their faith based on your personal experience. i am dissappointed with your answer TO. i thought you would have something better than that by now. the existence or non-existance of god cannot even be argued let alone proven one way or the other. you have just chosen the side you want to be on is all. their are those that have little faith, those that have great faith and those at every point in between. there is not one who is without a measure of faith. there are also those who have chosen to abandon the use of the faith they have been given. sadly, in your frustration you have chosen to abandon the use of the faith that you were given. | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 1885 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Faith is over rated. Faith is what is needed to believe in something inspite of the evidence. You have no problem with living with that, I do. Perhaps TO does as well, although I'm sure he can explain himself just fine. I don't know why you have a problem with someone taking their personal questions and experiences and the effect they had on their beliefs and discussing with others their interpretations of these same questions. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 1697 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.37 |
Where is the evidence that the supernatural exists? I don't have any. "sadly, in your frustration you have chosen to abandon the use of the faith that you were given." Yes I choose to abandon believing things there is no evidence for just because I want to or because I'm afraid not to. I now expect to see evidence with a logical train of thought behind it concerning "spiritual" things just as I do with everything else. Religion no longer gets a "free pass" in making sense. I thought you were asking what initially caused me to loose my faith. I would say that 30+ years in a search and finding no genuine evidence for the existence of the supernatural or the reliability of the scriptures to be rather significant myself. Now, if you want to know why "I" continue to disbelieve we could talk about some other things like: *The evidence for life being strictly a biological phenomenon of material, physical, and natural composition being overwhelming. *The realization of how gullible human beings are by studying the worlds religions and cults and how they get established. *The pattern demonstrated by such individuals as L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, and others who “invented” their own religions and how that sheds light on older established religions. *The large body of scholarly work that reveals the patchwork nature of the Bible how it has changed over the centuries. *The historical evidence that shows that much if not all of Christianity was plagiarized from religions that preceded it. *30+ years of associating with Christian's of every type and ilk and realizing the transforming power of Jesus Christ is about as real as Peter Popoff's words of knowledge and Benny Hinn' healing touch. *The realization that the morals of the god of the Bible are more akin to a human despot than a divine intelligence. *I've prayed, fasted, sacrificed, tarried, marched, sang, pleaded, surrendered, made leaps of faith, for quite some time and my conclusion is that Christianity is just phoney wishful thinking whose worst enemy is honesty and doubt. I have no "hatred" for god or Jesus. I loved Jesus as completely as I think is possible. I loved Jesus because he was supposed to be "The Truth." I still love "The Truth" but sadly the truth I thought was in Jesus Christ turned out to be fiction. I have no hatred of god, but I do hate the human beings who use religion as a tool to kill, plunder, or otherwise impose their will on others. As I've said numerous times before. I'm all for freedom of religion. I don't care if you follow some established religion or one of your own invention. However if religious claims are brought to the public arena then those claims should met the same criteria for acceptance that medicine and science must meet. If the religious claims don't meet the requirements that we put on other human endeavors like medicine, food preparation, mathematics and so forth then they can't be considered "real" and religionists shouldn't balk when they find themselves marginalized by their insistence that nonbelievers acknowledge their beliefs as having some validity. | ||
| ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 2498 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.121.140.84 |
A question that I have never heard answered with any clarity, is this: Why is faith important to God? Why would HE care wether or not we believed in events as they are portrayed in the bible. Why would HE punish those not willing to buy something they cannot see, hear, taste, smell or touch? This seems to be a central theme to all religion, that faith is important above all. Why would the creator of the universe, if there is one, care if you are faithful or skeptical? For anyone taking a stab at this one, keep in mind, "because the bible says so" is a non answer. Please no bible verses. | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 469 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.17.92 |
For me, as a Christian I say he doesn't care. And I believe this is biblical. I believe there is room for all humanity in paradise. God is wise enough to know that our belief system is a product of what we were taught combined with our experiences throughout life. God is forgiving and can forgive all our sins, regardless of our belief or non-belief and when Jesus died, he opened the gates for all to enter. Probably the most misunderstood and abused line in the bible is the quote “no one gets to the father but through me” (John 14:6). In reality it simply means God, through Jesus, will judge, not you, not me, and certainly not any fundamentalist minister. But if we follow the “golden rule” we will be judged on one law, “…for all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” (Galatians 5:14) not to forget “…love is the fulfilling of the law” (Romans 13:10). | ||
| ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 2509 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.121.140.84 |
I hate my ••••••• neighbors, they have a dog that barks at all hours of the night, and the old lady talks to the dog like he has good sense! Goddam hippies. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3888 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.47 |
Then you are just an example atheist as to why all dogs don't go to heaven. If you were there with that attitude it wouldn't be heaven, now would it? | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 69.239.123.5 |
Ba2, you often think like a Jew. That's meant as a compliment. You seem to be an optimist and want to see the good in the Bible and in G-d. (Do keep in mind that G-d is doubtful a "he" or a "she". Ahh the complexities of the human language...) As far as faith goes, I like the word 'trust' better. Faith can so often be blind. Yes trust can be too, but trust implies more study, more knowledge in what one trusts. I trust that gravity will keep me on the floor. I also trust that G-d is in control, but does not micromanage. I often doubt and question the ways of G-d, the Torah, the Talmud, the Midrash. What does G-d want of us? I don't take my Rabbi's word for it. I absorb what the rabbi says and then figure it out for myself. And in that way, I trust in G-d. It's all semantics, one may say, but semantics cannot be ignored. It's our major way of communication, though not necessarily G-d's way. P.S. Dogs should be taught manners. But there may be another side of the coin...can the old lady not sleep and/or have a case of dementia, and thus needs a kind neighborly person to notice she needs help? (franklin, you've displayed attitude like that too, my dear. As may be said, we are not all without sin.) | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3890 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.142.79 |
You are correct. None of us are without sin. And not all dogs go to heaven. If they all did it would not be heaven. Maybe some go to reform school. That would be hell. But one thing for certain for believers, we will be judged. | ||
| sharon Advanced Member Username: sharon Post Number: 607 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.164.4.48 |
Such blasphemy I have sinned,, for shame. Speaking of Hippies that way! If you really find you can not abide the barking get a silent device from smart homes. It give a silent whistle every time the dog barks and they do not like the sound and will stop barking outside. It will not stop them in their own house but then you will probably not hear that. It is about 75 bucks. Just a suggestion for those who do not want to fight with your neighbors over dogs. I do know that the barking can be annoying. But if the dog starts talking to you and giving you messages from God you should probably move. Still not a Christian eh? Well you still have time | ||
| ba2 Intermediate Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 478 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.118.144.205 |
chesed: From you I take it as a complement. The few practicing Jewish friends I have/had were very nice people. I always enjoyed my time with them. Never proselytizing, never suggesting Christians had it wrong. And I certainly do not have any interest in converting them. Sometimes I think they are the only ones who have it right. In fact, I think I got my best advice concerning OT interpretation from a rabbi. The advice I get from my minister absolutely stinks. Is God male or female, I don’t know. I saw a film some time ago where people would have an opportunity to see God face to face. Everyone saw themselves. Like looking in a mirror, whether they were male/female/black/white/etc. So who knows? I use “he” because it is more universally accepted that way. Like you, I have no doubt that God does not micromanage. And I like your use of the word trust. | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
Franklin, my judgement day is quite close for the High Holy Days are just around the corner. G-d judges while I'm alive though, and annually, so as to keep me on my toes. And G-d doesn't give me a blanket automatic forgiveness, for there is introspection and action necessary for forgiveness. ba2, rabbis are pretty good with the Bible. Your comment on what G-d may look like is very interesting, and it makes sense. I never had a very clear concept of G-d as a child; I never had the Santa-like man on a throne in the clouds image that many kids have. So, as an adult, my image of G-d is not human at all. To me, there is no gender. I truly hope G-d doesn't look like me. I am too human for G-d. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 3896 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.140.197 |
chesed: "Franklin, my judgement day is quite close for the High Holy Days are just around the corner. G-d judges while I'm alive though, and annually, so as to keep me on my toes. And G-d doesn't give me a blanket automatic forgiveness, for there is introspection and action necessary for forgiveness." And so it is in Christianity also. Judgement is daily and atonement is necessary for forgiveness. But all of us will die with many sins still not atoned for. We will be without knowledge of some of our actions being sins. We will not die with a clean slate but a dirty one. In respect to your beliefs, God solved that problem for humanity. Sending the Son of God, the messiah, and all whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. In other words our dirty slate is washed clean by the sacrifice of Jesus. You call it an 'automatic blanket forgiveness' but there is none in Christian scripture. It is just an acknowledgement that humans will always be imperfect and God loves us enough to have a solution for that. God's grace and forgiveness. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 379 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.8.213.220 |
Shalom Chesed I went to a seminar about the High Holy days last week. I will be post some gems from the class this week. Why do we call them the "High" Holy days? There aren't low holy days. Nor is it a pun on the word "Hi" for twice-a-year Jews. We get high with a mahzor, minyan, and meditation on the nature of our journey through this world. Something good, I believe, accrues with other Jews, sitting with them in community and re-connecting with the words and melodies of our people. Fastening onto the "high" in these holidays can help us look upward even as we look inward. Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur can allow us to articulate or re-articulate to our selves our loftiest aspirations and capacities. As we sit through the services, perhaps we will be able to tap into the reservoir of spirit and sensitivity and convern for others, be they fellow Jews or all members of the human family, that I believe is inherent in every human heart. We owe it to our selves and to the world to try. May these forthcoming High Holidays be elevating to everyone. by Rabbi James S. Diamond | ||
| chesed Intermediate Member Username: chesed Post Number: 125 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.75.252.89 |
franklin, Christianity's solution to sin seems to work for you. It doesn't for me. Yaakov, thanks for sharing. Rabbi Diamond is very wise. | ||
| yaakov2 Intermediate Member Username: yaakov2 Post Number: 382 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.8.213.220 |
G-d's Boxes I have in my hand two boxes Which G-d gave me to hold. He said "Put all your sorrows in the black box And all your joys in the gold." I heeded G-d's words, and in the two boxes Both my joys and sorrows I stored. But though the gold became heavier each day The black was as light as before. With curiosity, I opened the black, I wanted to find out why. And I saw, in the base of the box, a hole Which my sorrows had fallen out by. I showed the hole to G-d, and mused, "I wonder where my sorrows could be." G-d smiled a gentle smile and said, "My child, they're all here with me." I asked why G-d gave me the boxes, Why the gold and the black with the hole? "My child, the gold is for you to count your blessings. The black is for you to let go." Author unknown | ||
| sharon Advanced Member Username: sharon Post Number: 609 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.164.4.48 |
Beautiful! | ||
| frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 403 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 |
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the "atheism is just another religion" BS. Atheism: The lack of belief in any gods. That's it. That is the entire description of atheism, nothing more. There are groups and philosophies that may use atheism as a componenet such as secular humanism but atheism itself is not a religion. There is no doctrine, no ritual, no leaders, no philosphy just a lack of belief in gods, that's it. If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, not playing baseball is a sport, not collecting stamps is a hobby, not being a letter carrier is a job, on and on. Everyone who rejects even one deity is an atheist in terms of that deity. Thor, Allah, Isis, Ramtha, whatever. Everyone disbelieves in some religion. A complete atheist rejects all religions, believers reject all but one. I don't believe in xtianity for the same reason I don't believe in Mother Goose. | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 4364 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.127.46 |
And that is just some more atheist dogma you are spewing. Cliches that all of you other clones preach at us. You have all of it, doctrines, leaders, philosophy.... all of it. Being in denial of the fact that atheism is just another religion, a worship of humans, yourselves, and hedonism does not make it untrue. Stop spewing the dogma and try to come up with something original please. | ||
| frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 |
Is that all you can say Franklin? Seriously. This post is just a rehash of all your other posts. If there are "dogmas" within atheism then back it up, give me an example of "atheist dogma" and explain why it is a dogmatic. Also, clue me in on what your definition of 'dogma' is. If there are atheist leaders, then back it up -- who are the leaders of atheism? What are the atheist doctrines? I have no idea what they might be. So Franklin, since you know so much more about atheim than I do, help me out here. What might the atheist philosphies be? Do atheists have a sacred text? Any rituals that I should be aware of? Because I don't know about any of these things and if you do then I could learn quite a bit about atheism from you -- since you must be an expert on the subject. Tell me Franklin, great master of atheism, help me out since I am so ignorant. Are you one of the atheist leaders? | ||
| franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 4367 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.4.127.46 |
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary dog·ma 1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds. There is your definition. Everything you write is atheist dogma. Same words your clones speak. Like parrots. Look at all of the atheist quotes you spread around factnet. Your leaders speaketh. I'd say Richard Dawklins for one is setting himself up as an atheist leader. You guys sure quote him a lot. You buy his books, (your sacred texts) filled with atheist dogma, his website asks for donations, tithes. Your doctrines are everything you write. Same opinions, (dogma) that the rest of your wolfpack believes in. Talk to one atheist you've talked to them all. You're just like Chatty Cathy dolls. Pull the string on your neck and the same garbage comes out. "Christians Bad! "Atheists Good!" Doesn't take long at all for any believer in God to realize that you factnet atheists are nothing more than arrogant bigots who would love to squash religious freedom if you had the chance. | ||
| frankenchrist Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 409 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.177 |
Very good Franklin, you looked the definition of the word up in the dictionary. That's step one. Now, on to step two -- use the word in such a way that is consistent with that definition. Rather than indiscriminatly dismissing everything I say as "dogma" try to establish some guidelines for using the word. If you just scream "dogma!! dogma!! dogma!!" the word loses all meaning, doesn't it? Notice the "authoritative tenet" part of the definition. If a ststement is made based on an established authority and nothing else then it is fair to call it dogma. Notice part of the definition is "put forth as authoratative without adequate grounds" such as "because it says so in the Bible" or "because god said so" or "because I said so" are all examples of inadequate grounds. I noticed you didn't include the second definition of 'dogma' -- "2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church" -- is that because that one doesn't suit your purposes, so you just ignore it? Not very honest of you, is it? Just because you have seen a statement before or more than one person hold an opinion does not make it dogma. 2+2=4 is not dogma, it is based on an understanding of how basic math works. Richard Dawkins is ascientist and an author, he also happens to be an outspoken atheist, that does not make him a leader of atheists. Atheists are not cohesisve enough to have leaders that function the way religious leaders do. There are several books by Dawkins and I have not read them all. there are no sacred texts that function the way that the Bible or Koran or Bagavad Gita does in religious societies. If this is the way that you see me: "Christians Bad! "Atheists Good!" Then you really haven't read anything I have written, you ingnore it and scream "dogma!" There are many good people who profess religious beliefs and I agree with much of what they say. There are plenty of atheists who are out to f^%*ing lunch. I don't know of any atheists who want to squash religious freedom, not one. The only group of people that I know of who are out to impose their religion on everyone else is the reconstructionist, dominionist christians and fundamentalist muslims, depending on where you live. I would not want to eliminate religion, for one it is probably impossible, two even if it were possible, it would be impractical. Religious and non-religious are fuzzy sets, there is no clear and definable line that can be drwan between what it is and what it is not. |
