| Author | Message | ||
     G man (203.148.187.196) |
I have recently attended a Goenka Vipassana meditation course. I would be very interested to hear of any body else's experiences of the course, both positive and negative. I would be particularly interested in information regarding the following questions, but any experiences would be welcomed. 1. On a ten day meditation course, why do none of the masters teach you how to sit properly on day one? Is this normal? 2. Why is there an increasing amount of Goenka's chanting on the tapes when on day one he says that he will only chant from 6.00am to 6.30am, and you can leave at this time if you want to? 3. Why can the masters not instruct each group, human to human, as vipassana has been taught for centuries? Why do we need to listen to tapes? 4. Why is there so much talking on each tape? Is this auto suggestion? On day ten Goenka talks for practically an hour. 5. Why is it so important to not each to much on the course, when it is evident that Goenka has obviously tucked one or two meals too many into his gut? Is this just a way of taking people's energy reserves away? 6. Why is the video we have to sit through not been remade? It could now use lots of cross cutting, clips of crowd reaction etc. Is it because the video used is just a Goenka headshot for 1 1/2 hours every evening, when students are obviously tired and in deep subconcious states, perfect for autosuggestion/brainwashing? 7. Is the whole point of enlightenment to learn it from a "mental operation"? Should we not work it out for ourselves? 8. Why does Goenka go on about Vipassana like it was all the Buddha spoke about, rather than just one small meditation technique? 9. Why is the greatest spiritual gift you can make to come back on the course as a server? Surely it would be to help the homeless or some other good cause? 10. Has anybody got any evidence of Goenka as an ego maniac empire builder? 11. Why does nobody inform you at the start of the course that your misery could INCREASE by the end of the course if you do not do it properly? Is this a little unkind? 12. How come Goenka is so certain about everything? Is he enlightened? 6. 5. | ||
| My View (64.12.117.21) |
I practice Vipassana but have never attended a retreat taught by Goenka or his students. I am aware that their format is demanding and the style is a bit impersonal. Some people are drawn to it others, like myself, are not. My understanding is that they only ask for donations at the end of the retreat and do not charge a set fee. I don't see how one can consider them a cult. If this paticular teaching and style is not to your liking perhaps you would do better studying Buddhism and practicing Vipassana at a center like IMS or Spirit Rock. I see no reason to spend much effort in criticizing Goenka. | ||
| G Man (203.148.187.196) |
Thanks for your response. I do not think Goenka vipassana is a cult, although it uses cult-like techniques. I do believe it's worth a bit of effort questioning meditation techniques that promise so much. 90% of the course theory (Vipassana) is a worth while technique and I am glad that I have been introduced to it. But the other 10% of the course, the way the meditation technique is facilitated, is at best ungentle and at worst dangerous. I have done other meditation courses and I went onto this course in a good state of mind, but my fears were for those people who ended the course looking like ghosts or thinking they were enlightened or believing they must continue this particular practice or their misery would increase. This is not speculation, they told me this was going on for them. Now the Goenka course is extremely demanding and extremely impersonal, and needlessly. I believe it to be totally irresponsible to teach vipassana in this particular way. It does not allow you to find out the "truth" for yourself, it suggests the way to find it and pushes you forcefully in that direction and then it labels you as weak if you find any problems. I am a drama teacher and I am very protective of my student's self esteem, you need to be very gentle with people when they are exporing their boundaries and their peceptions of themselves. Otherwise it could cause a great deal of pyschological harm. I find it unbelievable that a meditation practice does not seem to hold the same opinion. But I am not very wise, I grant you that. So if someone can educate me on why this course has to be so demanding and impersonal, for the spititual good of the individual and the planet, I would be interested. Buddha did not go on a Goenka course. Why should we blindly follow the techniques of gurus without questioning them? And if they do not stand up to questioning, if they do prove to be dangerous, however slightly, perhaps they need to be changed, or even stopped? | ||
| Brent (4.35.148.253) |
Hi, I don't know if you are still interested in answers to these questions, but here is my response. I have studied Buddhism for about 20 years and have been casually involved with this movement for about a year. I took a 10-day course last fall and was very skeptical going into it. 1. On a ten day meditation course, why do none of the masters teach you how to sit properly on day one? Is this normal? There is nothing magical about sitting one way or another. There is some benefit to sitting in certain ways, and some drawbacks to sitting in other ways. The fact is, this is just not very important and deserves no emphasis. To emphasize posture or other such superficial concerns would be to distract from the basic task at hand which is really quite simple (though difficult). 2. Why is there an increasing amount of Goenka's chanting on the tapes when on day one he says that he will only chant from 6.00am to 6.30am, and you can leave at this time if you want to? The chanting has much to do with tradition and a bit to do with setting a state of mind. People unaccustomed to chanting might be uneasy with it, like it is some secret brainwashing technique. Nope, just chanting - kind of like mood music. 3. Why can the masters not instruct each group, human to human, as vipassana has been taught for centuries? Why do we need to listen to tapes? Goenkaji is very concerned with conserving the purity of the technique. The assistant instructors (not "masters") that guide courses are generally not qualified to teach the technique. The tapes have been proven to be effective and allow centers to run courses following a carefully prescribed format and schedule with a group of volunteers. You must remember that the assistant instructors do not live at the center and teach courses. They volunteer to take time out of their outside lives to come and assist by answering questions. Also, there is no need for the face-to-face except when questions arise. Most of the work to be done, simply must be done by the individual, not the instructor. Really the assistant instructors are just there to reiterate the instructions and provide reassurance. If I recall correctly, Goenkaji addresses this issue somewhat during the course. One thing we want to avoid is the development of a cult of personality. We see this springing up around figures such as the Dalai Lama. People are drawn to the man and are thus distracted from their own efforts to figure out the truth for themselves. The technology affords us the opportunity to remain physically detached from the instructor. Some would argue that it is an attempt to build up a cult of personality around Goenkaji, but I dismiss this. Goenkaji keeps a relatively low profile, and for most participants is just a voice and a face. When a real person teaches the course in person, we run the risk of being drawn to that person and following that person. 4. Why is there so much talking on each tape? Is this auto suggestion? On day ten Goenka talks for practically an hour. The discourses provide a little break. They are one of the few times of the day that one is not actively engaged in meditation. The main benefit of the discourses is the provide encouragement, show people that the instructor(s) know what you are going through and that everything will be OK. They also help put the techniques into perspective in outside life and within the context of the course. I have never heard anyone question why there was so MUCH talking. Most people I've talked to wished there was MORE talking. 5. Why is it so important to not each to much on the course, when it is evident that Goenka has obviously tucked one or two meals too many into his gut? Is this just a way of taking people's energy reserves away? Why would anyone want to deplete your energy reserves? There is more than enough food freely offered to all participants. The sleeping and eating regimen is designed to keep participants from becoming lethargic. It is scientific fact that the mind is most alert when the stomach is not full. The sleeping and eating practices of these courses is well-established in Buddhism. There is nothing new or sinister about it. As for Goenkaji having a few extra pounds, I don't see the relevance. He could be a gun-toting, chain-smoking, alcoholic womanizer, but this is not your problem. It does not change what you should or should not do. You must decide for yourself what you should or should not do. The point is not to follow the man. The point is to look within yourself and decide on your own path. The technique is just offered to you freely for you to use if you find it beneficial. 6. Why is the video we have to sit through not been remade? It could now use lots of cross cutting, clips of crowd reaction etc. Is it because the video used is just a Goenka headshot for 1 1/2 hours every evening, when students are obviously tired and in deep subconcious states, perfect for autosuggestion/brainwashing? Wow, and I thought I was the suspicious type. I guess I don't have any comments for that. Cross cutting and crowd reaction are irrelevant and more for entertainment than substance. I have not actually seen the videos because I was blind when I went to the course. Again, I have never heard anyone complain about HAVING to sit threw these videos. With everyone I've talked to, they found this one of the most pleasant aspects of the course. 7. Is the whole point of enlightenment to learn it from a "mental operation"? Should we not work it out for ourselves? Absolutely! This is the point. The Buddha said this. Goenka says this too. One must absolutely work it out for oneself. The point of the course is not to show you the path to enlightenment. It is to teach you the skill of vipassana meditation. This is a technique you can use to figure out your own salvation, but it will not do it for you, nor will any instructor. This is one of the clearest arguments against the suspicion that this is a cult movement. Goenkaji makes it very clear that you must do this for yourself, and that he has not special power or knowledge. He can only show you a technique that may help you. He makes no promises, but tells you repeatedly that you should give it a fair try, and decide for yourself if it is useful. 8. Why does Goenka go on about Vipassana like it was all the Buddha spoke about, rather than just one small meditation technique? Goenkaji is not teaching Buddhism. He is a layman that at some point in his life realized the benefit of vipassana meditation. He has made his life's work out of sharing the technique. When you come to the course, you come to learn the vipassana meditation technique. That is plenty to do in 10 days. 9. Why is the greatest spiritual gift you can make to come back on the course as a server? Surely it would be to help the homeless or some other good cause? Just like he admits in his discourse, this is a little bit of marketing. He is very upfront about that fact. He does point out the benefits of providing service. This sales pitch is an important part of making these courses available. Remember, these don't just happen. They are pulled together by a bunch of volunteers. Goenkaji seems to feel that vipassana is one of the most powerful techniques for self-realization and the eradication of personal suffering. Believing this, it logically follows that efforts that help make this technique available to more people is a noble pursuit. It's important to realize that Goenkaji is in the "business" of promoting vipassana meditation. He realizes the power of the technique and is commited to offering it to anyone that wants it. The rules are simple. If you have given the technique an earnest attempt, and have found the technique to be of value, then you would probably want to share that technique with others. Serving is a good way to do that. 10. Has anybody got any evidence of Goenka as an ego maniac empire builder? There is none. If there is, it is well-hidden. Goenkaji genuinely seems interested in exactly what he says he is interested in. He is clearly not an ego maniac, as he keeps a fairly low profile. It is all about the technique, and very little about the man. Go to dhamma.org and read through that site and try to find much information about Goenkaji. There is very little discussion. As for empire building, well, I guess that depends on how you define an empire. He is certainly actively engaged in promoting the development of more centers and courses. I don't see this as an empire. These centers are all locally owned and operated, generally by a co-op of some sort. 11. Why does nobody inform you at the start of the course that your misery could INCREASE by the end of the course if you do not do it properly? Is this a little unkind? 12. How come Goenka is so certain about everything? Is he enlightened? Who said he as certain about anything? He knows some things, including a technique which he will teach to you for free if you wish. He asks nothing in return. If you doubt this, go to a course (which apparently you have), then leave without paying a dime or offering service. See if anyone contacts you or pressures you in any way at any time. No one will. If you wish, at the end of the course you are free to go with no strings attached. No one will contact you at all unless you request it. How can anyone be suspicious of that. My only request is that once you satisfy yourself that there are not ulterior motives, and if you find the technique useful, that you give something back to help others gain the same benefit. With regard to, "It does not allow you to find out the "truth" for yourself, it suggests the way to find it and pushes you forcefully in that direction and then it labels you as weak if you find any problems." The course is tough, but no value judgements are made. The course is so impersonal for a very good reason. If you experienced feelings of weakness or sinister motives or whatever, they came from within. Interpersonal contact is limited to leave you alone with your own mind. When that happens, all sorts of things can emerge, but they do come from within. Let me tell you my story (briefly). I was completely blind when I went to the course. So, my wife dropped me off, and I had no way to leave if I wanted to. The first several days went quite well, but around the 5th or 6th day I was overcome with feelings of paranoia. I was CERTAIN this was some sort of brainwashing program and surely something terrible was going to happen toward the end (like poisoned Kool-Aid or something). I was so overcome by these feelings that I had developed a plan to sneak out in the middle of the night, feel my way through the woods, and hide in the woods near the road for my wife to come by, then hope she saw me. It is hilarious now in retrospect, but it was quite real at the time. This was just one of many tricks my mind played on me during the course. Of course, many people report seeing strange images in their minds. I had all of that too. When you churn up all of that gunk from the depths of your mind, the results can be alarming. My only real criticism of the course is that 10 days is not quite enough time. At least it wasn't for me. It left the job just a little short of finished. I left there feeling like I needed just another day or two to root out some of the "demons" that I had just begun to stir. Fortunately, I was able to spend some time after the course finishing what I started. I hope this helps. -Brent | ||
| Anonymous (81.130.115.32) |
I have attended two ten-day Goenka vipassana courses and one three day one; it would be more, but the father of my child is not willing to look after her while I do another, because he is very suspicious that it is a cult (we have both suffered from the influence of the Institute for Self Actualisation on our friends, he more than I)As my parents are now too old to look after my daughter for so long, I am effectively debarred from any more ten day courses until my daughter is of independant age, because this man thinks the Goenka lot are a cult. My personal experience of the courses was very positive.To be honest, the only reason I went on the first one was that I needed loadsa time alone and quiet after a few hectic years of mothering, relationship breakup etc.I thought to myself, "well no-one can tell what I'm doing with my mind if I'm just sitting there....I could be fantasising, thinking about recipies or WHATEVER." By the end of the course I had mainly done a lot of thinking, but felt as if I'd re-contacted a self I had left behind some two decades ago; this was with practicing the technique in a very cavalier fashion indeed. By this time, however, I had become interested in the technique itself, having come to the conclusion that the mantra meditation I had practised when younger had been a form of self-hypnosis which left me dronged out, whereas this meditation left me aware (well vipassana does mean awareness). I can quite see that someone looking for a cult to get addicted to could addict themselves to vipassana, but then again,to the the true addict anything will do; we do not blame food for the phenomenon of compulsive eating! I had the distinct impression that everything possible was done to minimise the dangers of a cult of personality, and of other pitfalls that such organisations offer for the unwary seeker.I found the impersonal approach and quasi-monastic regime exactly suited to my temperament; what might seem, from reading the rulebook, like harsh and unnecessary stuff (no talking, no eye contact, that sort of thing) proved to create exactly the right supportive environment for meditation. I know that this would not appeal to some people, and to be honest, I think a lot of the people it would not appeal to would be those who were not prepared to take responsibility for themselves, but needed a mentor or peers to reflect their 'progress', someone to approve or disapprove at each turn.The fact that we were allowed to 'design' our own meals by serving ourselves from the substantial and nutritious fare available was very positive; being doled out a prescribed dollop of something standard would, I think, have substantially altered the experience.Looking round the refectory,it was amazing what entirely different meals people had created for themselves! I really missed the food when I left......I don't think the idea was to deplete our energy! I agree that the method of having "assistant teachers" further removes the risk of people forming an attachment to a personality rather than to the technique.There's a lot more I could say and I may make a further contribution at a later point.But in brief, I feel that the organisation does as much as it can to discourage cultish behaviour, and although I would not recommend it to all and sundry, that is because I feel the conditions might not suit some people, not because of anything dodgy about the organisation. | ||
| Paula (65.49.68.121) |
I attended a Goenka course in the US, and I am astonisehd that this crap goes on in so many countries and no one questions this ego maniac. I was reprimanded by my teacher for not attending the optional chanting session. When I pointed out that it was voluntary, the teacher, or rather the assistant teacher told me that Guruji's (aka Goenka's) voice emits magiacal and mysterious vibrations that will be healing and helpful for me....Not a cult? Think again. I think this meditation technique itself could be quite useful. I just wish there was someplace where people could go, pay $15/hr or whatever, and just learn it, like ballet or akido. | ||
| Brent (4.35.148.253) |
Paula wrote: "the assistant teacher told me that Guruji's (aka Goenka's) voice emits magiacal and mysterious vibrations that will be healing and helpful for me." Not likely. If you were actually told this (which I most sincerely doubt), this was the mistake of that assistant teacher. Mr. Goenka has made it pretty clear that he is just a man with no special power or insight. If you recall, when you came to the course you agreed to give the technique a fair and complete trial. It sounds like you didn't really do that. You opted to pick and choose the portions of the course that suited you. It seems you had a bad experience. It is an insult to everyone (millions of people) that have had positive experiences to call this a cult. It implies that you are wise and they are all foolish. These courses are now being given in prisons in the U.S. and abroad because they work and are not cult-based or religion-based. Countless case studies support this. So, it might be a good idea for you to do a little research and find out what others (with considerable credentials) have to say about the technique and the courses. Then you may find that you could have drawn hasty and/or incorrect conclusions. Although the overwhelming majority of participants recognize the value of these courses, what disappoints me is that a few people are so conditioned to be suspicious that they fail to see the obvious. The courses are offered freely, and those who offer them NEVER ask for anything in return. Students are given the opportunity to donate, but not pressured in the least. What kind of cult never asks anything of its participants? If the Buddha himself was teaching enlightenment, these people would warn their friends and family to stay away. | ||
| Anonymous (203.129.242.114) |
Dear G Man, Sorry to hear of your experiences, and would hope you get over them soon. At the cost of maybe scaring a bit a few others who may read this and decide not to do a course they were planning to, I would like to share my experiences as honestly as possible because I feel they might help you. After joining a course by Mr. Goenka's organization in 2001 in India (near Delhi where I was working and residing) I had similar strong doubts, suspicions on the same lines you describe and maybe worse ...voices in my head telling me that I was being hypnotized... that forced me to actually leave the course like Brent was planning to do. I slipped away in the middle of the night without informing anyone convinced I could save myself only by leaving else risk being indoctrinated. I was able to leave and get away and reach home safely. But what followed was further distressing, and I suffered acute psychiatric problems as a result of my fears and suspicions for which I was under psychiatric treatment for some time and that also affected my work and changed several jobs due to depression etc. (Thankfully nothing very damaging to my career long term. I have a good stable job today) Sounds like you may have gone through a similar though less acute phase. Inspite of these experiences, my considered opinion now (about 2.5 years later) is that this particular method is very pure and beneficial in the long run as well as being powerful (maybe because it is so powerful that some people may have these extreme reactions) But because it is demanding and powerful it is convincing and acts in some unpleasant ways in the short run. As for the prognosis of my illness.. well it gradually got better with time and medication, but some distrust for the way I was taught at the retreat and my experiences remained. In you r case you seem convinced of the validity of Buddha's teaching only suspicious of this particular organization. But in my case there also remained a strong suspicion of Buddha's teachings as well.....especially that of "anatta" there is a classic "supposed" dichotomy between Hindu and Buddhist philosophy on the "Self" theory that everyone in India who studies some religious books goes through I suppose. Anyway I now (after a lot of reading various works including dhamma posts and others and thinking over the last two years) have realized that there is no dichotomy between the real teachers of truth like the Buddha and others who realized or even came close to the ultimate truth, just differences of degree and expression and language.. but that is digressing from the point. Well to cut a long story short, as I tapered off the psychiatric medication I tried other meditation techniques to help feel better until I decided to try Anapana and Vipassana again on my own even though I still felt somewhat suspicious(NOTE: for people who have a history or tendency to suffer psychiatric problems, Vipassana is to be used with extreme caution and only under the support of a teacher, whereas Anapana may be used with caution on one's own as I learned later on interacting with a teacher. However I did not know this then so started practising both Anapana and Vipassana on my own in the way taught in the course and luckily did not come to any harm) Although the first few days were again a litle disturbing I was amazed how the practise started clearing up my mind of these irrational phobias (and this btw was not in the context of a camp or with chanting but plain Vipassana)and I began to realize that these were tricks that my mind had played as I was beginning to be freeer of the causes of my suffering. Over a period of time the continued meditation for just half an hour /forty five minutes twice a day (sometimes a little longer) helped me to realize the truth a little better (I do not say I am anywhere advanced in this aspect, just that my mind is much free-er of the contradictions in theological thought and ritual that are quite possible in the overdose of religion an Indian is exposed to) I now understand a lot of religion that I used to just read a lot better and I am quite sure that this is the path that I was looking for, and this is not a blind but a carefully considered conviction. I regard Mr. Goenka not as a cult leader a "guru" etc but as a teacher who has adopted a good method of spreading the Dharma in an original tradition. Now this is without actually having gone to another course yet or really establishing much contact with the organization except a couple of small emails, so it is in no way an indoctrinated or forced feeling, but something that the practise and gradual inspection of myself and exposing my phobias to scrutiny has brought about. I should probably be doing another course in the next year or so although some of the emails exchanged with the teachers have advised me to go slow given my earlier experience. Now coming to your specific questions (all of these are my views as I am not a teacher or too connected with the organization yet If you feel you have an open mind it is best to address a teeacher directly): 1. On a ten day meditation course, why do none of the masters teach you how to sit properly on day one? Is this normal? >>I think there is no one posture that is universally prescribed for meditation of any school. Whichever posture you choose the body and mind will start rebelling after some time until you start disciplining it. So it is important for you to choose a posture or postures that suit you best. Patanjali an ancient Indian Yoga Master in his treatise on Yoga or meditation says "Posture is that which is stable and comfortable. There is no other rule" So it is not such an important part to tell people how they need to sit. They should find a comfortable way 2. Why is there an increasing amount of Goenka's chanting on the tapes when on day one he says that he will only chant from 6.00am to 6.30am, and you can leave at this time if you want to? >> Not sure if this is the case. I remember it use to be from 6-6.30 because I used to check time with my watch till day 7 but I did not do the full course. Maybe it just felt longer because of your resistance. I also resented the chanting somewhat and increasd by Day 6/7 a bit during the course because with a strong Hindu religious background I always felt that good chanting or mantras must be in Sanskrit "the language of the Gods" and should be musical and sonorous like I had been used to hear and repeat since childhood. Goenkaji's chanting was in Pali and not so sonorous. I have not gone through another course to comment on a second experience of listening to the chanting, but I realize the powerful conditioning of my own religious/cultural experience and comfort level with what a chant shoudl sound like that caused this irrational discomfort. It is exactly this sort of mind-block and conditioning that prevents one from reaching the truth and I suppose people experience and get over different forms of conditioning during a course and later if they continue to meditate and recognize these for what they are -minor irritants one gets over eventually with continued practise. If you come from a Western culture, in your case probably it was a lack of comfort with the process of chanting itself which is what you felt was alien. Now on why these chantings should help I guess you should talk to a teacher or someone with more experience. But my here are my views which may or may not be correct but I and many from India accept that Mantras, chanting help connect with and reinforce the subconscious in a beneficial way. (That may be misrepresented as thought control/hypnotism but a good/wholesome mantra is not aimed at control by an external person ...although some ancient Indian texts do talk about unwholesome mantras like a hypnotism mantra which I have not experienced... but at reinforcing positive qualities that are already present in the mind. Sort of like Zig Ziglar asking you to repeat a positive reinforcing mental image of yourself at night or a sports psychologist asking people to see and imagine and repeat that they would be victorious before a game. If you would consider that to be thought-control or suggestion then maybe a mantra or chanting is similar but I think it is just a more powerful way of making a resolution) 3. Why can the masters not instruct each group, human to human, as vipassana has been taught for centuries? Why do we need to listen to tapes? >>To maintain the purity, I think Goenkaji lays stress on teaching by someone who has studied both pariyatti and patipatti (theory and practise) Goenkaji himself studied both for 14 years under Sayagyi U Ba Khin in Myanmar before he was authorised to teach and he has also trained in detail and authorised a few "Full teachers" who may conduct retreats and guide on their own without using these aids. Certainly this would restrict the number of teachers and number of cour | ||
| Seraphim (195.82.184.5) |
I found Anonymous'letter above very informative. Thank YOU! I'm wondering if anybody has ever had other psychotic experiences after attending a Goenka course. I went on one of Goenka's course and had a real psychotic rollercoaster ride after leaving half-way through. I spent five days at a course, then started to feel that it was intensely wrong that I was not allowed to contact my family, so left in the middle. Every thing was fine for about three weeks. Then I experienced a severe anxiety attack (nearly psychotic - I had to check myself into the local hospital)that lasted a hellish four days. It felt like a really bad hash trip: paranoia, fragmented thoughts, the whole nine yards. I'm not saying it had anything to do with the (aborted) retreat. I'm just wondering if anyone has had a similar experience. I personally don't believe that Goenka's org is a cult, but perhaps someone out there has gone through what I did and would like to share their experience. By the way, If anyone at this site is interested, Ken Wilber has written an excellent essay on how to discern the "spirits" of the new (and old) American religions. I advise anyone seeking out new ways of being to read it. If you are interested, say the word and I'll post the title (too lazy to go to my bookshelf now and look it up!) Apart from that, I would like to ask anyone at this board, what would you say is the final and ultimate criteria for knowing that a teaching is genuine? Based on my experience, the only way to know that a dream is a dream is either by a) seeing it lucidly, or b) waking up from it and looking at it in retrospect. Wouldn't the same rule apply for gaining an objective view of this nightmare we call "life"? | ||
| Anonymous (203.129.242.114) |
Seraphim, If you try to keep your mind clear and calm I guess you should get over this soon and I hope like me become stronger from the experience than before. i would like to regard this as a short term pain from bitter medicine that heals by revealing hidden inner contradictions. I suggest that you take good medical advice and support before emnarking on this again but gradual meditation itself is the best healing. You might want to contact a teacher to help you with the process but if you find that negative associations with a particular group give you bad feelings again then for some time it might help to read a little of the theory behind the 5 powerful hindrances described by the Buddha and just establish calmness and try to understand your situation. Anapana is supposed to work well in this process, but again make sure you work with a qualified teacher as well as with qualified medical approval. Wish you the best in your quest. | ||
| Patrick (205.188.117.20) |
Salutation to all people who have interest on vipassana meditation, both old students or those who want to make the experience. Excuse the bad quality of my english, but it is not my mother language and I don't use it very often. First, I made 3 ten days retreats, one 3 days, one 1 day in the presence of Goenka and I was present at a conference of Goenka. I made dana of ten days of my life to help people to be introduce in the technique. I also read a lot about many other vispassana meditation teachers, monks or non-religious, centers and courses. Really, what impressed me so much with Goenka is the fact that the technique is open to everybody and absolutely free. Goenka don't even accept any donation if you don't have compleate a ten day course. This is pure dhamma. Actually, most medidation centers charge about $30 to $60 us a day for retreats. Answers to questions (my opinion): 1. How to sit properly... I think that everybody at the end of the first course have that question in mind. When you go back for the second time you think you have the answer. Sometimes with what you think is a better position, sometimes with a new state-of-the-art super-cushion. All those answers are illusions. This is the habit of the mind, but listen to the teacher: JUST OBSERVE. Observe your mind, observe your body, observe the pain, observe the breath, observe the impermanence, observe the sensations pleasent or unpleasent, realize the truth in your body. 2.You seams to have problems with chanting.I think it is a good thing at the end of a one hour sitting, to encourage you for the last five minutes. 3.Goenka want the technique to be teached properly and exactly as U BAH KHIN teached him. And it is especially important with a lot of courses all around the world. 4.Simply dhamma talks. And The most important of the Dhamma talk is DON'T ACCEPT IT BECAUSE GOENKA SAYS OR BECAUSE THE BOUDHA SAYS ACCEPT IT BECAUSE OF YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. 5.It is simply better for meditation. On my first course I eat a lot and was always hungry. In the other courses I eat one third and had no problems. 6.Like chanting, you seams to be disturb by a detail. the night discourse give you a break in a big day of meditation. 7.8.Anapana meditation calm your mind, Vipassana is the purification of the mind. Enlightenment can be a goal, but the path is so long, so many thousands lifes, don't made an obsession about that. Step by step, Vipassana is the key to realise the truth, piece by piece. 9.To serve a dhamma course is the greatest gift because dhamma is the most important gift someone can receive. Many cause are importants, but the difference is that in a dhamma course not only you give meals, lodging, but you help people to learn. the same as giving not only a fish but a fishing course. 10. The empire Goenka is building is a ego-dissolving one. He and so many teachers make the gift of their time and their lifes witout nothing in return. Those people work really very hard for the good of others. It is just after some course and service that you can realise all the efforts and the heart, compassion of those assistant-teachers. 11.If you think your misery increase, it is simply that your eyes begin to open. The misery is part of the life of all human beings. Everyday most of the people add a lot of sankaras, they are not concious. If you are concious, the only thing you can do is better, not worst. Even a 1% better is better. step by step... 12. Goenka is certain about only one thing. Vipassana change is life, more happy, more healthy, more love. And he wants everybody to have the same. Conclusion: A meditation retreat of ten days can be very difficult, especially the first one. Myself I experiment many days of tears and physical pains like never before in my life. I also experiment a joy wich is far ahead of what you can feal in the ordinary life. Those physical and or mental sensations are not importants. Vipassana is to observe, not reacting, just REALISE the IMPERMANENCE. Something wich is so impermanent has no substance. no importance. Realising the impermanence change your life, your goals, you begin to be more human more conscious, more compassion, more love. May all beings be happy | ||
| G man (203.148.187.196) |
Dear All, Thank you for all your comments. Interesting and intelligent. I must confess i have not looked at this website for a while, sorry, I would have got back to you in person. There are so many comments here that I would not know where to start. Firstly for everyone who has had a positive experience of Goenka vipassanna, I am glad that his path suits you and has given you a method that you trust. For all those who have not had a good Goenka vipassanna experience, do not let the Goenka course make life MORE difficult for you. If you did not get on with the course it is not because your mind is weak, as Goenka puts it, but possibly because your mind is too strong (don't ask me whether that's bad or not!) I went on another meditation course once. It began on day one saying "Everybody in this room is already okay. That may come as a surpise to you, but you are okay. Everything is okay." The teacher then spent the next two days teaching us how to quieten our minds. Simple and gentle. To anyone who is thinking of, or has already attended a Goenka course, you are okay. You were okay before you went on the course, and you are okay now. Forgive yourself everything bad you have ever done. If anyone had lived your life, they would have done the same thing too. It's obvious. Don't spend your whole life crushing yourself for how we demonstrated in those really stupid ways how lost we are. Then...try to be nice to people. It's a great game, the most fun. Try not to expect anything back. If life were a game, who would the winners be? Fair is often foul, and foul is often fair. We are not always so smart to work out which is which. We never really know what is bad and what is good and what is bad and what is good. So...choose a path that you can love. As for whether this life is a dream?...or worse, are we actually constructng our own nightmares?... it's all too much for me. Everything is okay... If you do good, may in some perculiar and wonderful way you recieve some back, and if you don't, hello from me, don't lose your mirth and check under the carpet. PS...If you are goint to do a Goenka course for the first time, try to keep your back straight, shoulders relaxed (not tight like you are trying to hard), chest open, head strong and still. If you feel a great deal of pain remember this is normal. It means you have been sat on the spot for 7 days, it does not mean you are going mad. By the way, everyone should quit smoking, it's bad for you. I'm just off for a ciggie. Big love G Man | ||
| cultboy (cultboy) New member Username: cultboy Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.114.66.109 |
Hi, In response to Paula, there are many places including online and in books where you can learn vipassana or insight meditation. http://www.buddhanet.net has audio files, tons of great writings, original suttas (sutras) etc. on vipassana and other kinds of meditation. If you're willing to pay for the instruction, go for it. There are tons of places where you can pay to go on zazen retreats, insight meditation courses, Shambhala seminars, Christian retreats, every possible religion, spiritual path, etc. Just search the web. They're everywhere. I have taken one 10-day course, and a couple shorter 1/3 day courses afterwards during the last 2 years. Nobody contacted me about going back, by the way, it was my choice. I think part of why the Goenka course is so strict is that they are trying to maintain the purity of the original teachings, and do so without charging anyone for anything. At the same time, they are trying to maintain an atmosphere where new students can learn the technique and old students can continue to practice and do their work in an environment that is as free from distraction, noise, etc as possible. Ideally, one will then go back to the "real world" and continue working with everyday situations and put the work into practice in dealing with work, family, and other people. (By the way, the chanting Goenka does is all from the Sattipathana sutta and other original scriptures by Siddharta Gautama, and mostly it is saying stuff like "pay attention to the breath, impermanence, change, the nature of mind" etc etc. It never says stuff like "when you hear this certain tone, you will go out and kill all people with outtie bellybuttons!" At some point you have to ask yourself why you're so doubtful and paranoid of something that is being offered to you free with no pressure to return. The only pressure is for you to follow the rules so you don't disturb others and so you don't disturb your body and mind by quitting in the middle. Every person "working" on these vipassana courses is a volunteer, and every person who attends one is not charged anything, ever. I would actually be more suspect of courses and instructors who DO charge than one that has opened up centers all over the world that never charge and are only supported by the generous donations of people who have attended a 10 day course or more and who felt it was a beneficial thing that they would want to share with other people. Most people who attend one of these found out from someone else who loved it. They aren't out there recruiting lost teenagers or anything. It's just there for those who find out about it and want to do it. In response to others who left the course after 4 days or so, I, too, got paranoid and negative feelings during the 4-5th days. I thought the whole thing was a sham, and had built up this idea in my mind that there were generators pulsing vibrations into the room so that what I was experiencing wasn't real. Of course, I realized later that this was all created by my mind. I was really just sitting there breathing, and my mind was creating all these stories and negativity. By the end I felt amazing and really glad I had been able to observe the workings of my mind while I sat on my butt for 10 days. You really can't get to that level at home in a city. Too many distractions. It's true, this meditation stuff is serious. That's why some people who leave in the middle have problems. Your brain and body go through physiological as well as mental changes, especially during a long intensive silent retreat. This book, Zen and the Brain, documents what is going on in the brain and the body: http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=3236&ttype=2 All the information on the Goenka vipassana website is very clear in my opinion. (http://www.dhamma.org) If you really read it all before you go, there are no surprises, except maybe that your body is capable of such interesting altered states by simply stopping thinking and focusing on your breath and sensations. And to see the power your mind can have over you. I think if Goenka's courses were more personal or nice with less rules and structure, they would be a nightmare, especially for old students who want to work in peace and new students who get it. All you're doing is sitting there breathing, everything else is your mind playing tricks on you. Nope, it's not for everybody. Do what feels right to you. But: a free course which never asks for anything in return and where they do not contact you or ask you to come back unless you want to, to propose that that is some sort of cult, is ridiculous. Sure, it looks freaky and cultish to normal westerners: people not talking to one another, focusing entirely on themselves and what's going on in/on the body, a rigidly structured day, vegetarian food, lots of rules, long days, less sleep and food, little to no human contact, videos of Goenka (which I found very helpful in figuring out what was going on in my body and mind, and very funny), etc. But look beyond the surface and you see people being helped all over the world, without being charged. People learning to let go of anger and hate, to give selflessly, to endure pain and learn to see how pain actually helps us develop compassion for other humans. And as to whether Goenka is an ego-maniac... Well... I haven't seen him wearing any gold jewelry or big rocks, driving around in a Rolls Royce with a harem. I haven't seen his Goenka line of clothing with a huge logo on the front. There's no picture of him in the dhamma halls. He doesn't have his own flag. He's just trying to keep it real, spread the meditation instructions in the purest way, that is not messed up in commercialism or profit motives. Take it or leave it. This technique has been taught (always in silent 10 day courses) to thousands of people in jails in India and the U.S. among others, and it has been found to be very helpful to helping criminals stop the repetitive cycles that keep them imprisoned. To help them learn new ways of living. There's a great and touching documentary called Doing Time, Doing Vipassana, beautifully shot, that I think anyone should watch before going to a 10 day course, too. http://www.karunafilms.com/Dtdv/About.htm Oh, and even if it _were_ a cult, it would be like the coolest one ever. Because the food is great, he won't have sex with your children or wife, (nobody touched me the entire time I was there, in fact touching is not allowed), he won't sit around singing crazy songs with his guitar (though he will chant original Pali language scriptures about incoming breath, outgoing breath), he won't hole himself up with a bunch of weapons until the ATF comes in and kills everyone, I'm positive he has no weapons, I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe that when a certain comet comes by that we can put Nikes on and drink some poisoned cool-aid and hop a spaceship to the next dimension, he's definitely not going to ask you to kill yourself or anyone else, in fact, quite the opposite. And everyone who goes to one of these courses has to fill out an application and WANT to go. Nobody is bringing people in or coercing them. Go sit through the entire course, get to day 10. He'd rather have you go out and give selflessly to other people, to love other people, and stop putting out anger and hate into the world. Ok, I've written a book. That should suffice for now. I hope this clears things up.  Be happy! Be peaceful! Be liberated! (how can you argue with that???) | ||
| abcdefg (abcdefg) New member Username: abcdefg Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 202.93.171.176 |
it must be said that goenka may not know what he is talking about- sometimes it seems as if he is trying to convince himself (ie he has doubts) I believe he is 'trying too hard' a common trait of the overly devoted and obsessive. He seems a bit "over the top" almost "wishing it were true". It makes a lot of claims right off the bat instead of allowing a person to "find out"through there insight.Buddhism was not a proselytising religion - going out to save people as in other missionary religions - and blind faith was discouraged - although straight away you are asked about "other" practices etc and told to avoid philosophical speculation (though i'm sure buddha did plenty) - urging people not to leave the course - seems funny when the kalama sutta urged against "blind belief" - amd thus coercion of any kind. One last point - you will not find mention of this technique anywhere in the buddhist texts - i think buddha came to buddhahood naturally - without coercion - pushing himself - but rather through harmony - only sitting when he felt like it - as "coercion" seems to be part of the problem with life.If i taught meditation it would not be forced - and would start with discussion and speculation until we knew what we were doing - after all the kalama sutta urges us to do this (to question every assumption from the past and present) For example Goenka frequently talks about equanimity and the balance og\f the mind - but buddha said everything was impermanent so this 'balance' will not last - buddha also only mentions "desire" or thirst/craving in the four noble truths - not aversion (quite interesting huh) - another thing - goenka says the dhamma is not "buddhist" or even to do with monks - this is a big claim - it is inaccurate - the three gems are buddha dharma andsangha - together - it is also called "buddha dhatma" anything in the world is dharma - and this includes monks and buddhas !! | ||
| cultboy (cultboy) New member Username: cultboy Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.114.66.109 |
Here are some interesting articles about this topic: http://www.events.dhamma.org/interviews/coverage.htm http://www.events.dhamma.org/interviews/coverage.htm | ||
| dwerf New member Username: dwerf Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 82.170.252.126 |
I'm a person that has come to the very clear conclusion that Mr. Goenka's techniques are very disturbing. Please read the following. A letter I wrote to http://www.vipassana-cult.co.uk/vipassana-emails.html (search my name, Douwe) and this thread I started at a Vipassana forum, http://groups.msn.com/Vipassana/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=2736&all_topics=0 Should be interesting reading. By the way, http://www.vipassana-cult.co.uk is a great site. | ||
| lostinspace New member Username: lostinspace Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 61.68.169.62 |
I ws very relieved to see some of these messages as I have just returned from trying to do a goenka vipassana in Melbourne and am confused and disappointed by the approach of the people running it. I mentioned as I was about to enter the course that I sometimes got panic attacks - but don't take medication or see a psychologist etc. i also said that was the reason i wanted to do the Vipassana. Just as we were about to enter the hall on the first night I got pulled aside and told that the teacher had decided I could not do the course as I hadn't earlier mentioned the panic attacks or any mental problems. I said I didn't see it as a mental problem and was just a result of a lot of stress I've been under and the assistant just said, "The teacher has decided." I felt horrible and like they thought I'd purposely misled them and had to go and collect my stuff and leave. I felt like I'd been expelled from school and didn't understand why I wasn't even given a chance to explain, or why the teacher didn't see me personally. It was truly awful, but if anything on the way home I thought , well, if that's enlightenment it's not my kind of enlightenment and if Vipassana doesn't give you compassion for others as well as understanding for yourself then I don't think it's for me anyway. I still feel annoyed though at the way they did it. I sent them an email saying how I felt for the sake of anyone else they decide can't do the course once they've got there. I realise it was probably my fault for not saying earlier, but like I said I didn't really see it as any big deal. Maybe there was a good reason for me not doing the course, but I wish that was explained too. I don't know, since I've been confused in my life I've sought a lot of answers from a lot of places, but I'm starting to feel like there is a certain elitism and superiority in a lot of spiritual practices that kind of defeats the purpose. I'm 48 years old and know how to make decisions that are responsible for myself, i wouldn't have applied to do the course unless I thought I could handle it. Hmph! I won't be going there again! Nice to know not everyone thinks it's all that. Now I am going to go for a long drive instead of the Vipassana, and go and visit my friend interstate. That will probably do me more good anyway. Vipassna, Shmipassana! | ||
| aaron12 New member Username: aaron12 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 192.43.227.18 |
IS GOENKA'S TRADITION FLAWED? I have been a long-term meditator and sat on many, many courses. I was pursuing postgraduate studies on Goenka's method, but encountered several main problems with the retreats that led me to dropping the technique and my thesis. These are perfectly valid and understandable problems with the technique, logical to any person (Buddhist or non-Buddhist). ONE: DEVELOPING SAMHADI We do observation of breath until we are calm. In the Buddha's teachings, this occurs ALONE, in a forest, NOT with one hundred people cramped together in tense silence. After months, weeks, or years of calming practice, we are ready to observe 'Vipassana' or REALITY AS IT IS. All the problems described by the above people and others who regularly meditate is a failure of balance. You should not be doing vipassana after only a few days of calm for the first time in your life. In that respect, Goenka's retreats tend to push people near-to or over the edge, they need more calming of breath practice (this is present in other Theravada traditions). TWO: BODY-SCANNING IS NOT REALITY The practice of Vipassana, or 'clear-seeing', as described in the Pali Canon and Chinese and Vajrayanist texts, is the complete and total awareness of all that is in reality at the present. This involves: mind, body, mental contents, sensations, eyes, ears, posture, and so on. YOU CANNOT JUST CONCENTRATE ON THE BODY, this is NOT reality as it is. Many Goenka practitioners seem dreamy, this is because when a thought arises in the mind they suppress it, and push neutral sensations onto the body, and daydream, as opposed to actually recognising the thought in their mind as present. The recognition of mental states is the key to liberation after continued practice, they prevent you from becoming overwhelmed by intense emotions; they give you balance as well. (Mahasi Sayadaw allows 'mental noting', in this sense at least he is superior). Unlike what Goenka said, even body scanning is a method of concentration, it just contains a small amount of mindfulness, but has the wrong aim and is too constraining on the one hand, and not offering enough one-pointedness on the other. THREE: LACK OF BACKGROUND INFORMATION It is unreasonable to say Goenka encourages reading and gives practioners reasonable warning about his retreats. The texts available at centres characterise the entire Buddha's teachings according to the Goenka angle, and although containing the most basic texts that contradict the technique (e.g. the Satipatthana Sutta), most pracitioners never bother because they are unreasonably convinced 'experiential wisdom is better'. Practioners need more background information into where the practice fits into the teachings of the Buddha, and what it is exactly. It is also untrue that no other technique in the world brings liberation, and unfair of Goenka to characterise the world's religions as 'sects' whether implicitly or explicitly. This is not only highly offensive, but a very narrow view of the world that denies the legitimacy of religious experiences of the thousands of societies that exist on earth since 300million years of human evolution. | ||
| aaron12 New member Username: aaron12 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 192.43.227.18 |
FOUR: LEAVING It is immediately obvious from this page that the Goenka retreats have not left everyone people favourably. This is something that will have to be dealt with eventually. When a person desires to leave, one should not attempt to convince them otherwise. The institution does not train those running the retreat at all- they are volunteers and not equipped to deal with these issues. The management is also unresponsive because they believe the technique is so great, that any suggestion otherwise is reacted to with hostility. This occurs everywhere in the world, but only in these retreats is the persons own wishes not respected. This has to change, the technique is not described properly, and the management is not clear and well-thinking. It is also HIGHLY UNTRUE that the technique is successful, in South Australia alone over 600 new students have sat retreats over the past 10 years, only a small group of 10 systematically return. Pracitioners rationalise this away by saying it is too hard for others- they do not consider that it is too traumatic, or simply not the truth which liberates. I guess Goenka practioners have some hard thinking to do. OTHER SOURCES: If you don't beleive the basic logic I have listed above, and unencounterable truths I have listed, I encourage your investigation (unlike Goenka). See the wikipedia page on 'Vipassana', I suggest you read it carefully, it clearly states Vipassana is not a 'body-scan' technique, and makes reference to mental illness problems associated with the technique. Links on that page also elaborate the above information as per proper MONKS in 'external links'. There was also a documentary done on an ABC Australia Compass tv-show, where a psychologist lists his experience with 10-15 patients a year who wind up in his therapy after Goenka retreats. This is available online and for ordering (google search "ABC compass" + "Vipassana") THE BUDDHA'S TEACHINGS: The Buddha never said 'go do Vipassana', he also never ran retreats. Monks who follow the Pali Canon, those of the Forest Tradition, offer retreats with ample time, room, space and quiet. You can read texts and meditate only two hours a day. I question anybody in the world who claims it is written in scripture we are supposed to do anything like these 18-hour torture retreats. Again, monks who most closely follow the texts DO NOT advise self-harm of this nature, it is too extreme, and is not the Buddha's teaching of the middle-way. MY OWN EXPERIENCES: Still, if you do not beleive, read on. I was serving on a course in South Australia where a fellow fainted out of severe anxiety in the hall, he bashed his face open on the ground. They left him there, in a pool of blood, they could not 'touch' him. I second fellow lost his bowels in the hall, running in fear to the toilets, he looked severely disturbed and humiliated. When I was asked what happened- I faced a brick wall. Where's the truth? Arguments were rampant in the kitchen, some staff had left previously mid-course in a huff. Emergency meetings were called and anger was frequent. Discussion over past cases where people had gone crazy IN meditation and the police had to be called frequented occasional chit-chat. One long-term server (serious meditator who just came out of 1 and a half year retreat) began to have panic attacks and was almost hospitalised for breathing problems. All these problems occured in the same retreat (and this is just one retreat, I've been on more). I do not reccomend Goenka retreats. | ||
| aaron12 New member Username: aaron12 Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 192.43.227.18 |
Also, there are several points of paradox about meditation in general: 1- The Surrender You must surrender to the technique at some point, but this does not mean you lose your clarity, if the conditions prevent this, I suggest you leave. 2- The Sangha The sangha we trust in as great spiritual friends, they are not meant to be strangers, they are not meant to be alienating, we debate with them, they inform us, it is good. There is no 'surrendering' to being harmed by the sangha, if they are dreamy, dissociated and strange, they are NOT your refuge, and they obviously cannot help you. 3- The Tradition Theravada Buddhism is the practice of hearing instructions. Many a monk (both famous Australian monks Phra Kantipalo and Ajahn Jagaro) have wished they spent more time on Zen, which stresses realisation resulting from seeing-as-it-is as opposed to a lifetime of dry practice. It is no coincidence that zen monks do more one-pointedness before mindfulness (skikantaza), and that they seem to find more balance and eqaunimity in their lives. This was not noted by me, this was noted by famous monks. WHAT I DO: I do a lot of awareness of breathing in the stomach AND the nose- the entirety- outside, inside. This develops my one-pointedness, and after long periods of practice, I can begin to be mindful of my body, mind and everything else occuring in the moment. I also finish with lots of metta during my daily life (constant establishment), this essential to living a laylife. I am hesitant about extra texts- including the Abhidhamma- I also consider the Visudhimagga to be altered. I try to read as widely and comprehensively as possible with an open mind. WHAT I SUGGEST I suggest you try a Zen retreat, or a retreat with the IMS (at Barre) for a weekend at first, and gradually build up. It is also helpful to experiment with different practices- it helps you understand the universal mechanisms involved in meditation. For the supremely doubtful, Jason Stiff's "recollective awareness" retreats offer a huge amount of flexiblity in practice, and are offered around the States, the UK and Australia. I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone with the above material. This is merely the truth as I experienced it, however I am acting in the interests of those who have just left retreats abruptly, and I want to share my sympathies I am highly interested in an "Awareness Group" about Goenka's method that pushes more balance and respect in the retreats. No doubt, legal procedings may occur as the technique affects lives. This is already occuring in the West. Thank you, my love. AM | ||
| pete63 New member Username: pete63 Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 203.33.244.138 |
I have been a vipassana meditator for 13 years having sat about 25 ten day courses and served f/t and part time. The good: I have ceased being an alcoholic and I am generally a much calmer person now than I was back in 1994 after doing these courses. These courses are free or at least cheap. My donations after courses cover the cost of the food I consume. The food is very delicious and high quality. The lodging is reasonable and clean. Volunteers keep the centre running and provide for the needs of students. I like the 9 days of silence. I really like the metta days although I would prefer that day 10(metta day) was shortened or condensed for old students. You meet all kinds of people from different areas of life. It is the only place I know where the rich can mix with the poor and the professional mix with the non professinal socially when talking begins. The bad: Many people are fanatical about the religious theory that goes with this movement of people. Goenka says it is not an organised religion yet it has all the qualities of an organised religion. He says these retreats were available in the time of the Buddha yet there are no records of such retreats and how would they run 1 hour meditation sitting sessions without clocks or wrist watches? Goenka puts other religions down in some discourses. I agree with some of what he says but I know of religious people who have been very upset by what he has said. (something you may notice) Goenka is the guru who makes it all happen and is supposed to be very advanced on the path to liberation yet he has this habit of loudly and frequently clearing his throat(blind reaction). Here he is telling us all to be equanimous with all sensations..annica annica and he lets out this almighty ARRRRHUMMMMM. Goenka raves on a lot in his discourses like a big kid at times. Was Buddha a raver or a calmly spoken person? We will never know because he's been dead for quite some time. The same with Jesus. Members often blindly believe what he tells them (vipassana theory)even though he says not to blindly believe. Of course he wouldn't make his claims unless he expected people to blindly believe him. This is where Mr Goenka contridicts himself. Members who blindly believe his theories are often 'extremely' passionate and defensive in their beliefs. Uh OH! Members are often sanctomonious and arrogant toward the less convinced 'students'. You could say...just plain rude! Humanity appears lacking from AT's as students are considered nothing more than 'sankara's' or in other words..a complete mess which needs changing. Some very old students are malnourished like they are anorexic. uh OH! Inadequate warning is given to new students as to just how hard the course is. Insulin diabetics beware! Conclusion: I will probably continue to do these courses as they do relax me and they are affordable to people who are too sick to work. The people(old students) at the centre can be weird ,unpredictable, unpleaseant in various ways so I prefer not to be at the centre for long periods at a stretch. So far, I have had no complaints from the management regards my lack of dedication. If it happened, I would move on with haste. | ||
| pete63 New member Username: pete63 Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 203.33.244.138 |
Something I left out... After attending the 10 day course, you practice 2 hours vipassana + about 10 mins of 'metta' a day for the rest of your life and you are told you need to attend at least one 10day course per year. It is a very calming meditation technique although I can see it being very impractical for many 'worldly' people with busy normal lifestyles. I wouldn't mind trying out some Zen soon. Maybe it is more effective/powerful so needing less meditation time? I am curious to find out if this is the case. | ||
| dr_manish New member Username: dr_manish Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 59.93.193.55 |
is vipassana a cult? is goenka ok? I / ABC had XYZ problem when s/he sat her first vipassana course. is vipassana dangerous? ABC had mental problems - went for a vipassana course - it became worse. should we all stay away from it? is vipassana brain-washing? is there some secret society for funding? is there some auto suggestion / hypnosis involved? is there any conversion to buddhism? I did not understand ___ and ___ and ____. I do not agree with goenka saying ---- and ---, but 0000 and 0000 sounds wonderful. what should I do? goenka teaches this but does not teach that. how can he be so sure? is he enlightened? will vipassana help me? is it for real? --------- dear all, there may be a thousand questions and even a million attempts to answer may leave the questions unanswered. why? kindly let YOUR own direct personal experience take charge. take refuge in your own experience - the reality directly being experienced by you. stay FIRMLY rooted in this truth from moment-to-moment and sooner or later all your questions will be answered by your own experiences. as far as all the doubts about vipassana and goenka is concerned - all I can say with my 10 years of personal experience and research (on all aspects of vipassana) is that - please get rid of all your doubts and fears. vipassana is the best thing that can happen to you. please take this gem and make the best use of it. all the doubts and fears are baseless. brain washings and cults involve projection of some new thought or concept in the minds of people and there is some motive behind all this. here in vipassana the students are asked to observe the reality "AS IT IS" - as it is REALLY manifesting from moment-to-moment (at the level of natural breath or body sensations) and no imaginary concept is forced on people. where is the brain washing? and what for? cult? you may sit for one course and never return to the centre for whole life. you will not be forced to come to the centre and do something or become a devotee or something. so where is the cult? where is the gathering of cult members? motive? no one is asked to chant the name of the buddha or goenka or whatever. no one is asked to worship statues of goenka or buddha every day. goenka does not claim to be god or godman etc. where is the cult? where is the control? where is the commune? where is the exploitation? get rid of all fears. yes, from time to time people may have difficulties. vipassana is a very deep process of mind purification and those having mental problems / diseases etc. - may face difficulties. the pre-course briefing / the application form / code of discipline etc. make it very clear that the vipassana centres are places for meditation and NOT for treatment of any physical/mental disease and that the meditation teachers are not there for treatment. contd... in next post | ||
| dr_manish New member Username: dr_manish Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 59.93.193.55 |
contd... from previous post physical/mental (psychiatric) diseases are often psychosomatic and as the mind heals by vipassana - MANY people DO get better - but, the progress depends on many factors. if one goes to the course looking for a cure - one is not meditating as instructed (to be equanimous and watch the natural reality - as it is. do nothing. just watch. just see.) - but, is tying new knots and tensions by craving to get rid of something all the time - this is bound to backfire. such a person - may feel worse due to HIS OWN workings of mind. why blame this meditation? again, these centres run on the principle of voluntary donation and voluntary service. those who teach, manage, serve are all vipassana students - who are trying to serve selflessly and thus, wish to give back with a feeling of gratitude. everyone may not be the same. the centres run with a changing set of people. everything changes - you see! I may have had difficult experiences in this course or with this server in this or that course or I may not have found the answers of this assistant teacher very satisfactory - but, THIS DOES NOT MATTER TO ME AT ALL !!!. I try to look at myself. I try to learn to be equanimous and that's all !!! at the same time - I have had WONDERFUL experiences - very inspiring experiences. this is life !!! vipassana teaches to go with the flow. please leave all your bitterness, cynicism, fear, worries, insecurity, sectarian concepts etc behind with your footwear at the door of the meditation hall. enter the kingdom of dhamma (Truth) bravely like a lion - without any bag and baggage - and you are bound to be successful !!! and when you look at the world with eyes full of love something happens to you and your life....the centres are also part of world and not outside it. the teachers and servers are also IN the world and not outside it.... the love, perfection, peace etc. that you are looking for in a centre, teacher, dhamma-server are to be found WITHIN you and not outside. and when you find that inside you - your whole perception - your whole life will change.... and when you start loving yourself - you find that there is so much love for the whole world. this love will dissolve all your problems at all places and you will get to meet more and more lovely people (as your mind get purer and purer). try and see! no matter what the difficulty and for whatever reason - do not let go of vipassana - this wonderful science and art of living - persevere - stick to it and do not leave until you have managed to discover real peace within you. please note that goenka or no goenka - the organisation or no organisation - you will get peace from your OWN practice by YOURSELF. the buddha said - you are your own master. you make your own future. take refuge in yourself. take refuge in the reality manifesting within you at the level of mind-body. this is what the buddha said. you may have problems in believing in organisations and teachers and goenka etc etc. but, do you have any problems in believing yourself or your own experience? then do just that and dear friend, in essence - this is what vipassana is all about! | ||
| dr_manish New member Username: dr_manish Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 59.93.193.55 |
contd... from above arise. awake. persevere. do not turn back or rest until you have realized the elusive peace and happiness you are looking for. here is the correct path - a path that works. here is the opportunity. do not let ANY difficulty or distraction - due to ANY reason weaken your resolve to make the most of this wonderful opportunity. do not believe in hearsay. do not let mere 'pin-pricks' weaken your resolve to climb the mountain. do not be discouraged by yours / others failures. difficulties come to make us stronger !!! this is the motto of life. the bible says in JOHN: then ye shall see the truth and the truth shall set you free. see the truth yourself and be free youself! you are bound to be successful but, only YOU can make it happen - not goenka. not buddha. not any chanting. not any discourse. not any book. not any ph.d / research / website. not the best of the teachers, centres, organisation etc. you need just yourself to know yourself. "know thyself" and be happy! that's all !!! | ||
| dr_manish New member Username: dr_manish Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 59.93.193.55 |
vipassana websites: www.dhamma.org http://www.vri.dhamma.org/ http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/research.html http://www.prison.dhamma.org/ http://www.executive.dhamma.org for a deeply moving introduction to vipassana I would recommend the award-winning documentary "doing time doing vipassana" made by karuna films http://www.karunafilms.com/Dtdv/Dtdv.htm | ||
| harmanjitsingh New member Username: harmanjitsingh Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 122.162.11.46 |
A Critique of Vipassana as taught by S N Goenka: http://harmanjit.googlepages.com/vipassana-critique.html http://harmanjit.googlepages.com/vipassana-critique.pdf |
