| Author | Message | ||
     dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
GGWO teaches that it is sin to question a pastor's message,insinuating that it is equal to questioning God. The following is a transcript addressing that very issue. ----- Touch Not Mine Anointed, And Do My Prophets No Harm If you listen to "christian" television for any length of time you are sure to hear, "Touch Not Mine Anointed, And Do My Prophets No Harm." This verse is usually quoted to silence any person from questioning or criticizing what is being taught at that particular time. Through the use of fear proper biblical discernment is discouraged not only by the leaders but the flock is soon parroting this verse to silence any criticism that is leveled against their leader. What does this verse really mean? Does it mean that we cannot question anything that is taught by our leaders? Find the answers to these questions below from two evangelical leaders: PSALM 105:15—Does this verse indicate that certain men called by God are beyond criticism and accountability? MISINTERPRETATION: Psalm 105:15 says, “Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm” (nasb). Some Word-Faith teachers cite this verse in arguing that they have been specially anointed by God and should not be criticized for their teachings. They indicate in their words and actions a belief that challenging their teachings amounts to challenging God himself. (continued) } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: The phrase “the Lord’s anointed” is used in Old Testament Scripture to refer to Israel’s kings (see 1 Sam. 12:3, 5; 24:6, 10; 26:9, 11, 16, 23; 2 Sam. 1:14, 16; 19:21; Ps. 20:6; Lam. 4:20). In this context the word cannot be interpreted to refer to modern teachers in the church. Further, the word prophets in context can only refer to Old Testament prophets, not to modern church leaders. Neither of these designations can be interpreted with reference to teachers in the modern church. Even if we allowed that this verse could loosely refer to modern church leaders, the warning is against physically harming them. It has nothing to do with testing their teachings. In Old Testament times prophets and kings were very much in danger of physical harm—and hence the warning. } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
Scripture itself instructs us to test all teachings by the Word of God (1 Thess. 5:21). Like the Bereans of old, we must make the Scriptures our measuring stick for truth (Acts 17:11). The Bereans were commended for testing the apostle Paul’s teachings against Scripture. Paul affirmed elsewhere, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17 nasb, emphasis added). All of us are to be constantly on guard against false teachings (Rom. 16:17–18; cf. 1 Tim. 1:3–4; 4:16; 2 Tim. 1:13–14; Titus 1:9; 2:1). There is a sense in which every believer in Christ is “anointed” (see 1 John 2:20). In view of this, no Christian leader can lay claim to being special or above others and beyond doctrinal criticism Even if the text can be applied to certain church leaders today, in the context of this passage the words "touch" and "do harm" have to do with inflicting physical harm upon someone. Psalm 105:15 is therefore wholly irrelevant to the issue of questioning the teachings of any of God's "anointed." } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
Moreover, even if we accepted this misinterpretation of Psalm 105:15, how are we to know who not to "touch"; that is, who God's anointed and prophets are? Because they and their followers say they are? On such a basis we would have to accept the claims of Sun Myung Moon, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, and virtually all cult leaders to be prophets. Because they reputedly perform miracles? The Antichrist and False Prophet themselves will possess that credential (Rev. 13:13-15; 2 Thess. 2:9)! No, God's representatives are known above all by their purity of character and doctrine (Tit. 1:7-9; 2:7-8; 2 Cor. 4:2; cf. 1 Tim. 6:3-4). If a would-be spokesperson for God cannot pass the biblical tests of character and doctrine, we have no basis for accepting his or her claim, and no reason to fear that in criticizing his or her teaching we might also be rejecting God. } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
Finally, if any individual Christian is to be considered anointed, then so every Christian must be as well. For this is the only sense in which the term is used (apart from Christ) in the New Testament: "You [referring to all. believers] have an anointing from the Holy One" (1 John 2:20, NIV). Thus, no believer can justifiably claim any special status as God's "untouchable anointed" over other believers. Nobody's teachings or practices are beyond biblical judgment especially influential leaders. Biblically, authority and accountability go hand in hand (e.g., Luke 12:48). The greater the responsibility one holds, the greater the accountability one has before God and His people. Teachers should be extremely careful not to mislead any believer, for their calling carries with it a strict judgment (James 3:1). They should therefore be grateful when sincere Christians take the time to correct whatever erroneous doctrine they may be preaching to the masses. And should the criticisms be unfounded they should respond in the manner prescribed by Scripture: to correct misguided doctrinal opposition with gentle instruction (2 Tim. 2:25). } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
There is of course another side to this issue: criticism often can be sinful, leading to rebellion and unnecessary division. Christians should respect the leaders that God has given them (Heb. 13:17). Theirs is the task of assisting the church in its spiritual growth and doctrinal understanding (Eph. 4:11-16). At the same time believers should be aware that false teachers will arise among the Christian fold (Acts 20:28; 2 Pet. 2:1). This makes it imperative for us to test all things by Scripture, as the Bereans were commended for doing when they examined the words of the apostle Paul (Acts 17:11). The Bible is useful not only for preaching, teaching, and encouragement, but for correcting and rebuking (2 Tim. 4:2). In fact, Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God and warning others of false teachings and teachers (Acts 20:26-28; cf. Ezek. 33:7-9; 34:1-10). We would do well to heed Scripture's repeated warnings to be on guard for false teachings (e.g., Rom. 16:17-18; cf. 1 Tim. 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Tim. 1:13-14; Tit. 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to believers (2 Tim. 4:6). With so much scriptural support, such actions can hardly be considered unbiblical. } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
Here is what Charles Spurgeon said about false teachers: "I cannot endure false doctrine, however neatly it may be put before me. Would you have me eat poisoned meat because the dish is of the choicest ware? It makes me indignant when I hear another gospel put before the people with enticing words by man who would fair make merchandise of souls; and I marvel at those who have soft words for such deceivers. "That is your bigotry," says one. Call it so if you like; but it is the BIGOTRY OF THE LOVING JOHN, who wrote, "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed; for he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds." I would to God we all had more of such decision, for the lack of it is depriving our religious life of its backbone and substituting for honest manliness a mass of tremulous jelly of mutual flattery. HE WHO DOES NOT HATE THE FALSE DOES NOT LOVE THE TRUE; and he to whom it is all the same, whether it be God's word or man's, is himself unrenewed at heart. Oh, if some of you were like your fathers, you would not have tolerated in this age the wagon loads of trash under which the gospel has been of late buried by ministers of your own choosing. The apostle spake by inspiration when he said, "If we or an angel from heaven preach to you any other gospel than that ye have received, let him be accursed." According to modern effeminacy he ought to have said, "Let him be kindly spoken with in private, but pray make no stir. No doubt the good brother has his own original modes of thought and we must not question his liberty. Doubtless he believes the same as we do, only there is some little difference as to terms." This is treason to Christ and treachery to truth and cruelty to souls. IF WE LOVE OUR LORD, WE SHALL KEEP HIS WORDS AND STAND FAST IN THE FAITH, coming out from among the false teachers. Nor is this inconsistent with charity; for the truest love to those who err is not to fraternize with them in their error, but to be faithful to Jesus Christ in all things." } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
Here is what Charles Spurgeon said about the "wretched indifferentism" of his day: "We have been likened by one of our opponents to the boy in the fable who cried, "Wolf!" The parallel only fails in the all-important point that he cried "Wolf!" when there was none, and we are crying "Wolf!" when packs of them are howling so loudly that it would be superfluous for us to shout at all if a wretched indifferentism had not brought a deep slumber upon those who ought to guard the flocks. The evidence is to our mind so overwhelming that we thought that our statements only gave voice to a matter of common notoriety. Either we are dreaming, or our brethren are; let the godly judge who it is that is asleep." J. Gresham Machen had some insightful thoughts on these leaders that tell us to just love everybody regardless of what they teach: "That disaster is a figure of what will come of optimism in the churches of today. Superficially our ecclesiastical life seems to be progressing as it always did: the cabins are full of comfortable passengers; the orchestra is playing a lively air; the rows of lighted windows shine cheerfully out into the night. But all the time death is lurking beneath. In this time of deadly peril there are leaders who say that all is well; there are leaders who decry controversy and urge peace, declaring that the church is all perfectly loyal and true. God forgive them, brethren! I say it with all my heart: may God forgive them for the evil that they are doing to Christ’s little ones: may the Holy Spirit open their eyes while yet there is time! Meanwhile, in the case of many of the churches, the great ship rushes onward to the risk, at least, of doom." } | ||
| dave_munson (dave_munson) New member Username: dave_munson Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.252 |
Here is what Charles Spurgeon said about taking a stand: "We admire a man who was firm in the faith, say four hundred years ago...but such a man today is a nuisance, and must be put down...Yet imagine in those ages past, Luther, Zwingle, Calvin, and their compeers had said, 'The world is out of order; but if we try to set it right we shall only make a great row, and get ourselves into disgrace. Let us go to our chambers, put on our night-caps, and sleep over the bad times, and perhaps when we wake up things will have grown better.' Such conduct on their part would have entailed upon us a heritage of error. Age after age would have gone down into the infernal deeps, and the pestiferous bogs of error would have swallowed all. These men loved the faith and the name of Jesus too well to see them trampled on. It is today as it was in the Reformers days. Decision is needed. Here is the day for the man, where is the man for the day? We who have had the gospel passed to us by martyr hands dare not triffle with it, nor sit by and hear it denied by traitors, who pretend to love it, but inwardly abhor every line of it...Look you sirs, there are ages yet to come. If the Lord does not speedily appear, there will come another generation, and another, and all these generations will be tainted and injured if we are not faithful to God and to His truth today. We have come to a turning point in the road. If we turn to the right mayhap our children and our children's children will go that way; but if we turn to the left, generations yet unborn will curse our names for having been unfaithful to God and to His Word." } | ||
| hadasa (hadasa) Intermediate Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 228 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 205.172.107.75 |
I love Spurgeon; not in a cultic way | ||
| mercyreigns (mercyreigns) Advanced Member Username: mercyreigns Post Number: 675 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.144.70.76 |
can someone tell me what happened to our threads here? thanks | ||
| arron (arron) Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1390 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.204.41 |
if my pastor preaches contary to GODS WORD then i question it if it is not got striaght i leave the place. | ||
| lmao (lmao) Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 230 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Some people in my opinion use this verse to defend the teaching of their leader or pastor. They love to refer to "what we have been taught" (by the pastor-teacher). If we challenge them, they fall back on their convictions based on "what we have been taught" for many years. One of those convictions is that they are not to listen to a single negative word about the pastor. This conveniently takes away the measuring stick of the pastor's character. All they are left with is the pastor's idea of what a successful and fruitful ministry should be. Many claim to be following God and not a man but they refuse to question anything about "what we have been taught". I think it is obvious that Paul is referring to the original Gospel message he preached and that it must not be diluted by him or anyone else and that even he (Paul) was not beyond questioning when it comes to the truth. | ||
| guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner (guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner) New member Username: guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 70.130.208.69 |
If my dog barks contrary to the laws of nature then I question it.. if it is not got straight then I leave the dog house. All kidding aside, I would rather listen to my dog bark then Schaller's/Schibelli's/Love's diarrhea of the mouth. Those three collectively could not find their way out of a spiritual paper bag with water and a voice calling to them. They are white washed tombs and clouds without rain who steal and rob from the sheep for self approval and a false sense of security and self righteousness. The best thing they could do for the cause of Christ is to share a nice big cup of shut the hell up. If everyone left GG but those three ••• clowns then they would still show up and believe in the rightness of their cause while they patted each other on their pathetic, effeminate and weak little behinds (•••) for being so faithful to the cause of Carlelulia. If you are in the cult of GGWO I encourage you to leave and do not look back. Go to a Christian Counselor and get help with the exit process. Find a church where love and approval is not given and based by your measure of loyalty to a bunch of hypocrites but is unconditional and without strings or toxic to your faith. | ||
| louise_connolly (louise_connolly) Advanced Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 552 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 |
Carleluia, I like that. The 'cult of Carleluia'. I am bumming though that our factnet days look numbered but then the bores had to continue fill the GGWO thread with their incessant dribble (right david munson and boredel) so it is expected. Atleast DiscussGGWO and carlstevens.org have all the stories and pertinent artilces for anyone searching for genuine information on the cult once named The Bible Speaks now called Greater Grace World Outreach. | ||
| david_munson (david_munson) Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 2178 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.235.31.210 |
In good form as usual hey Louise? God bless you too. } | ||
| cordell (cordell) Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 488 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.11.216.61 |
little poison irish dwarf doesn't realize this is a discussion board and that some of those issues discussed are errors in doctrine--a big deal at GG. Of course it was perfectly ok for the dwarf herself to post her little barbs and REAMS of court documents, articles, etc., ON A DISCUSSION BOARD--of course without any discussion at all...hypocritical as usual wheezer. | ||
| louise_connolly (louise_connolly) Advanced Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 553 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 |
Cordeluia, I mean Bordeluia, the stuffed sausage who never got over the cult rejecting him should know all about it. Yee Haw!!! ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz | ||
| cordell (cordell) Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 491 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.11.216.61 |
back to the Baileys wheezer...too many braincells gone. | ||
| rjfernalld (rjfernalld) Senior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 1584 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.112.177 |
Louise Facts are important and there were many factual threads and posts once on FN that now are lost, and I am very angry about that...I know many people came to FN and were able to be helped. Discussion IS necessary. It is GOOD when people disagree, especially when coming out of a cult where any kind of thinking, disagreeing, even if we are wrong, was forbidden. Disagreeing in a discussion of doctrine is a right of passage for men, women, teens etc who are emerging from a cultic environment. I have constantly disagreed with cordell, but iron sharpenth iron...through discussion and disagreement he and I have become friends, I have learned what I do not think as well as better defined what I do think about doctrines, the bible, etc and it has all been healthy. I am so sorry that this discussion boaed has been abandoned by some who percieve themselves better than the rest, who have created and or flrd to other more "acceptable" mediums to post their boring holier than thou BS...for it was THIS discussion board that was STILL saving peopel from GGWO right up until the posts wee lost. You won't catch the teens finding a home, a place or anything to hang onto at discussGGWO or carlstevens.org...no way. How do I know,....they have told me so. I agree with them...FactNet discussions were more real, more thought provoking and more human, less cultic than any place they had read. I am sorry this has happened. But I suppose the cult always wins in the end anyway, right...that what the kids are saying. And I think that sucks. | ||
| sidethorn (sidethorn) Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 593 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Factnet should have put some litle ads on the sides of the screens without too much clutter to raise some revenue instead of cleaning out so many threads with vital information on it. Cleaning out these threads has actually helped out the cults like GGWO. Big mistake!!! At least some stuff is up now. Please keep posting your stories now so more people can be set free of cults like GGWO. | ||
| aurora (aurora) Intermediate Member Username: aurora Post Number: 178 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.30.49.45 |
I'm glad I printed out hard copies of many many posts during the past two years! Such helpful stuff- helpful to me as I left and I'm sure to many others. Isn't a lot still available on carlstevens.org? But maybe not the valuable testimonials of Jack Leonard, Jeannie and so many others. Now that I am really "over the hump" in the exiting process, I sure am thankful for all the help I received reading crazy old Factnet during 2004-2005! | ||
| david_munson (david_munson) Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 2185 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.140.247.140 |
aurora, Maybe you could open a thread here and repost the most pertinent and informative testamonies. I think many folks would appreciate it. } | ||
| aurora (aurora) Intermediate Member Username: aurora Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.30.49.45 |
I'm so not computer-savy that I'm sure it would be way too hard for me to figure out! Plus I imagine it would be quite time consuming. Great idea, though. Someone else wanna? Also, I just watched PBS Frontline about sex-trafficing and feel like spending every extra minute I have in my day PRAYING about this HORRIBLE thing happening to women and girls all over the world. (I wish I could do more than just pray.) Frankly, it makes the Carl Stevens evil seem minor in comparison. Ugh. | ||
| david_munson (david_munson) Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 2193 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.145.62.144 |
aurora, if you have a scanner you could email them to me and I will take the time to go through and post the stories again. People should be able to see what those who know have to say about the abuses that are prevelent in GGWO. The world is full of potential victims and like RJ we must not be silenced.If we are,children will suffer. } | ||
| sidethorn (sidethorn) Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 597 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Right on Dave. We must speak up for the childrens' sakes. Who would speak up for them within GGWO?? People are taught to never question pastors or authority figures. Any reports of abuse are dismissed as negative and evil reports about the brethren and ignored. GGWO is a real breeding place for abuse since nobody is allowed to question anything. So please post your stories right away. The hurting kids within the GGWO cult need sobody to speak up for them. The more exposure the better. Please expose the abusers out there. If you have solid evidence of abuse, please contact local law enforcement, social services etc.. Do anything but stay silent like GGWO would want. The "pastors" at GGWO need to be questioned as much as possible. They're not real pastors! They're really cult leaders and wolves in sheeps' clothing!! Keep exposing them before more people are hurt and decieved by them. | ||
| david_munson (david_munson) Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 2197 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.150.219.163 |
aurora, looks like I forgot to leave my email addy. dredtiger@netzero.net If you feel led I'll go over them.I have plenty of time on my hands. } |
