| Author | Message | ||
     trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 249 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
AS IT HAS BEEN PROVEN BEFORE In the strict sense of the word, you cannot be an atheist. To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, YOU must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion. If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the very limited knowledge I have at present, I believe that there is no God." Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don't know if God exists. So, in the correct accurate and strict sense of the word, you cannot be an atheist. The only true qualifier for the title is the One who has absolute knowledge, and why on earth would God want to deny His own existence? THE WHOLE PREMISE OF ATHEISM IS SIMPLY WRONG REASONING. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ATHEIST. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 650 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.127.91.194 |
Have you read this? http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=243971#POST243971 Please, people, let's not jeopardize all the valuable work being done to expose cults by continuing to create threads that are both irrelevant and redundant! | ||
| arron (arron) Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1258 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.204.41 |
if an atheist doesnt believe in GOD why are they always fighting HIM. isnt that a little like shadow boxing or boxing with yourself. if as they say GOD doesnt exsist... then what have they got to fight? | ||
| mikko (mikko) Intermediate Member Username: mikko Post Number: 404 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.242.21.100 |
great points arron and trsinheaven , they seem to seek a fight against christians in this matter cause if they truely didnt believe there is a god ,then they wouldn't care what we say or do ,they shouldn't care if we have bible club or say a prayer etc.. but they got this desire to argue and debate this. | ||
| timmer (timmer) New member Username: timmer Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.225.126.43 |
One of the former ministers at my church used to say that every atheist can give you a detailed description of the God he doesn't believe in. OTOH, there is Voltaire's observation that "God created man in His image and likeness, and man promptly returned the favor." "I thank the God that is that the God they told me about isn't." -- Ernest Holmes | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 677 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Did you hear the one about the dislexic agnostic who met the dislexic atheist? They keep wondering if there is a Dog? | ||
| ihavesinned (ihavesinned) Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 1560 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.112.180.149 |
Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. - George Gordon Lord Byron (1788-1824) If a man has a strong faith he can indulge in the luxury of skepticism. - Friedrich Nietzsche | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 710 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
ihs, here's some good answers for you. The God of the Old Testament and New Testament "The True Nature Of God By Andrew Wommack God is a good God! He isn't mad at us. He not only loves us, He likes us! He will never leave us nor forsake us, no matter how badly we miss it. His love is unconditional. His mercies are new every morning. Great is His faithfulness! These are radical statements! They go contrary to the typical Christian teaching concerning God. Usually God is represented as stern, angry, and ready to get us for the slightest misstep. This leads to conclusions and attitudes about God that hinder an intimate relationship with Him. There are reasons for the Lord being represented harshly. In the Old Testament, the Lord vented His anger and judgment often and in devastating ways. There was Noah's flood; the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; a death angel killed all the first born of Egypt in one night; an angel killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night; and on and on the list goes. There is no doubt our God is a holy God who hates sin and demands justice. But there is also the portrait of God that Jesus painted through His teachings and actions. He showed mercy on the worst of sinners. He associated with publicans and harlots. The only people to receive His harsh rebukes were religious hypocrites. And His ultimate action of dying for our sins proved beyond any doubt that He came to save, not condemn the world. How does this fit with the Old Testament view of the harshness and severity of God? Is God schizophrenic? Does He sometimes love us and other times hate us? How can we have a healthy relationship with someone who changes His moods frequently? These are questions that present a dilemma keeping many people at arm's length from the Lord. The vast majority of people KNOW there is a God. They just don't know how to relate to Him. They are confused because there have been confusing signals sent to them, often by the church. A minister will say that it was the Lord who sovereignly killed a baby and in the next breath ask if anyone wants to serve this GOOD GOD. We are told that God won't answer the prayer of anyone in sin, yet we are told that we all sin. Where does that leave us? Without a prayer! | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 711 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
ihs cont... There is a simple answer to these questions and a harmony between the wrath and mercy of God. God is not schizophrenic. There is one true nature of God clearly represented in the Word and that is LOVE! First John 4:8 says, "God is love." He doesn't just love at times. Love is the nature of God! Jesus gave us the greatest representation of the true nature of God ever presented. But what about the harshness of God's judgments in the Old Testament? Many expect God's mercies when we do well, but what about when we sin? God placed our sin on Jesus and punished Him in our place. God satisfied His own demands for justice, not by punishing us but by punishing His Son in our place. This wasn't a partial payment for our sins, conditional on our holiness being added to it. It was a total payment that leaves us with nothing to do except believe and receive or doubt and do without. Jesus' payment for our sins forever changed our relationship with the Father. If Jesus had made His sacrifice for sins in the Old Testament, then we wouldn't have seen the wrath of God vented as recorded in the Old Testament scriptures. Here's an example. In 2 Kings 1, Elijah called fire down from heaven and killed 102 soldiers who had come to arrest him. Jesus' disciples asked to do the same thing and cited Elijah as their example. Jesus rebuked them for even thinking about such an act, saying, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" (Luke 9:55-56). Jesus rebuked His disciples for trying to follow Elijah's example. This shows that if Jesus had been present on the earth in His role as Messiah, Elijah's act of judgment wouldn't have happened. There is a difference between the way God dealt with mankind under the Old Covenant and the way He deals with mankind under the New Covenant. One of the biggest problems in the church today is a failure to understand these differences. Before the sacrifice of Jesus, there was harsh judgment. It wasn't because the Lord desired to punish us. His nature has always been love. But there was a price that had to be paid for sin, and until that price was paid by Jesus, He had to do something to restrain sin. | ||
| rachellengland (rachellengland) Member Username: rachellengland Post Number: 98 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 |
ihs are you reading this!!!! | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 712 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
ihs cont.. final It's similar to the way we train our children. If you wait until your child is twenty years old and can comprehend exactly what you say before you begin disciplining him, you and the child will be in big trouble. A child has to be restrained from doing wrong from a very young age. At one or two years old, a child may not understand that it is the devil tempting them to take their sibling's toys. But they can understand, "If you do that again, you are going to get a spanking." They may not comprehend the issues of heaven and hell, but when the devil tempts them with covetousness, they will say "NO!" because of the fear of a spanking. Likewise, before the new birth, the Lord restrained the amount of sin in the earth through enforcing the strict Old Testament Law by harsh judgments. This put the fear of God in men, but "fear hath torment." (1 John 4:18) Although the amount of sin may have decreased by those under the Law, the sin they did commit became more exceedingly sinful and damaging to their lives through the Law (Rom. 7:8-13). Therefore, the Law wasn't God's best, or first, way of dealing with sin. Prior to the time God gave the Law through Moses, God didn't impute men's sins unto them. That means He wasn't holding men's sins against them, or, as the word "impute" literally means, God wasn't putting men's sins on their account. Romans 5:13 says, "Until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Men were sinning and that sin was destroying their lives. God didn't want to punish them. He was willing to show them mercy, on credit in a sense, looking forward to the sacrifice of His own Son for their sins. But men began to take the lack of God's judgment as approval. This can be clearly seen with Cain and his descendants. Cain killed his brother Abel (Gen. 4). Instead of punishment, God extended mercy toward Cain, even putting a mark on his forehead to warn others that God was protecting him. But Cain's great-great-grandson, Lamech, interpreted this as approval of Cain's murder. Lamech killed a man in self-defense and therefore felt more justified in his killing than Cain was. He said, "If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold" (Gen. 4:24). | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 713 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
ihs cont .... God didn't say that. Lamech said that. Lamech was being presumptuous because of God's lack of punishment upon Cain. Therefore, mankind began to move so far away from a proper standard of holiness that if God had not intervened, there wouldn't have been a virgin left from whom Jesus could've been born. As Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 10:12, "But they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves with themselves, are not wise." This has always been the case. If one gets by with sin, others will be emboldened to commit more sin. So, before the Lord could produce the new birth where He came to live within us and guide us through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, He placed external restraints on sin that even lost people could understand. "You sin and you die." That's the way it was. Not because that's the way God really wanted it to be, but sin had to be restrained until Jesus' atoning sacrifice could be made. God's lack of punishment on sin had also led to a total loss of a true standard of right and wrong. Men compared themselves with others so often and for so long that no one knew what God originally intended. Something had to be done. Therefore, God gave the Law, but not because it was His best. He could have given the Law to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when they first transgressed, but He waited 2,000 years until the time of Moses. That's because the Law had serious side effects of condemnation and guilt. God didn't want us to run from Him but to Him. However, sin was destroying the human race and had to have some restraint before Jesus came. That's why He gave the Law. The Law wasn't God attempting to save mankind. It was God showing us that we could never measure up to His holy standard. It was to drive us away from self-righteousness and toward receiving the sacrifice of Jesus by faith. Yet, amazingly, the church has interpreted it in a completely opposite manner. Most Christians think the Law is wonderful and something that we are obliged to comply with as much as possible. Not! | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 714 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
The Law was given for two main purposes. It caused us to fear God's punishment on our sins, and therefore, to those who listened, it lessened the amount of sin in our lives, thereby diminishing Satan's in-roads. Second, it totally took away all hope of being saved by any virtue of our own. The Law made everyone guilty before God with no hope of justice. We needed mercy. Those were the main purposes of the Law. It was not God's list of steps one through ten thousand of what you must do to be right with God. It was God's list of all you have done wrong, proving that you can never be right with God unless He provides another form of payment. It was not to set you free. The Law was to bind and destroy you. It was a severe spanking for the whole human race to turn us from sin and self-salvation. This is some of the most radical teaching I've ever done. I have an abundance of scripture references for every point I've made. I haven't included all the references in this teaching the way I typically do because they would be too numerous and would require explanation. But it's imperative that you understand these truths. This teaching will change the way you view God. ihs cont... I have a teaching entitled The True Nature of God in book form, in a three-tape set, and also in a three-CD set. In this teaching, I harmonize the wrath of the Old Testament with the grace and mercy of the New Testament to reveal one true nature of God. This is a life-changing teaching. I think this is one of the most important revelations the Lord has given me to share. Free at 719-635-1111. | ||
| ihavesinned (ihavesinned) Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 1578 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.112.180.149 |
That's a lot of info, man. Amazing the amount of rationalization that goes on to make different aspects of the bible line up. If this level of rationalization went on with the 7day creation passage, we wouldn't be having the evolution/old earth debate. | ||
| infoman (infoman) Advanced Member Username: infoman Post Number: 715 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 |
Yes ihs, info it is... they just want to be perfectly clear... Like you I believe in brevity but it isn't easy with so much to explain. This is not as much as some more complex subjects. Scripture is clear but.... it explains scripture. This is a subject that also is tied to and relates to a few other subjects. This article although a full page long doesn't even scratch the surface of the whole teaching that this teacher offers. | ||
| nikita (nikita) Intermediate Member Username: nikita Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.167.68.209 |
infoman, I am so glad that you took the time to post that teaching by Andrew Womack. Thanks. Nikita | ||
| we_agnostics (we_agnostics) Junior Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.238.56.37 |
I know that there are no atheists. Atheists say there is no god, correct? Yet everyone that I have ever met who profess to be atheists are at a roadblock when I ask them the following questions: "Do you believe that 'they' will find a cure for cancer or AIDS?" "Do you believe that 'they' will find a way to make clean, efficient, cheap energy one day?" "Do you believe that 'they' will find a way to rid us of the poisons in the environment?" "Do you believe that technology will make our lives better, if only we become better practitioners of the faith?" Most, if not all, reply "YES" to these questions. Yet is it not true that the atheists asked all bow down at the Altar of Technology? Do they (we) not have an innane need to believe these things? And are not the scientists and 'nerds' whom we depend upon for these things 'disciples' to the God of Technology? (Could Bill Gates be the High Priest of Technology, LOL?) We are all slumming in the Church of Technology, whether we are atheist or theist; whether we will admit it or not. Take this wonder of Technology, the computer: What a wonderful gift from the Silicon God! And where would we be without computers and cell phones? Oh, and how about those who have paid their alms to the church and are now 'wireless'? Yes, we all are consumed and worship at the Altar of Technology: The Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent! And we willingly turn our lives over to this god every single day! Personally, I would trade it all to live in the Amazon amongst the so-called 'primitive' tribes. No technology, nor any of the problems which accompany it. We, who are so 'highly advanced' have nothing but the God of Technology to blame for the ills of this world! With love, ~~~~~~W_A | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.136.179 |
Maybe that is like the text give to Joseph Smith and you have to put on some special glasses to understand it. Watch out, the god of technology might get you. Try again, 'We Agnostics" -- that was stupid. | ||
| we_agnostics (we_agnostics) Junior Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 35 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.238.56.37 |
And your opinion????? Opinions are like arse-holes: Welcome to the club, Frankie!! (Try not to be so shallow in the future!) Love, W_A | ||
| ihavesinned (ihavesinned) Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 1635 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.112.180.149 |
"Yes, we all are consumed and worship at the Altar of Technology: The Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent! And we willingly turn our lives over to this god every single day! " Lame, The obvious conclusion is that technology will advance. It builds on itself exponentially. Computers are used to design better computers. This hardly constitutes worship. And there was surely war before cell phones, you can't blame everything bad on technology. Do you think those Amazonian tribes don't fight or kill each other? When one of their children dies of an easily cured sickness, they would probably like to trade places with you as well. | ||
| osirus (osirus) Intermediate Member Username: osirus Post Number: 274 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.40.89.30 |
Trsinheaven, I cannot believe you would make such an ignorant statement. You are correct when you say that no human being has all knowledge. It also means that you cannot be certain that there is a God either does it not? An atheist is a naturalist, a believer in science, nature and reason. Religious people believe inthings not seen, which is called "faith". Which in believe in some thing not seen basicly means believing in something that is not proven or cant be real. (Message edited by osirus on January 31, 2006) | ||
| we_agnostics (we_agnostics) Junior Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.238.56.37 |
Not even a dumb animal excretes where it eats! Albert Einstein once said: "The significant problems we have cannot be solved by the same level of thinking with which we created them." So, ihavesinned, you can only pray (to whom?) that your beloved technology will bail us out when the world has become our septic tank! Here's another quote by ol' Al: "Only two things are infinitite, the Universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." When the plug is finally pulled on technology (and that is all it will take), what are you going to do? But, keep the faith, for we all know the 'God of Technology' will come to our rescue.......NOT!! Keep the peace, and stay serene! Love (unconditionally), ~~~ W_A | ||
| ihavesinned (ihavesinned) Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 1644 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.112.180.149 |
If you consider medicine part of technology, then yes, technology has certainly saved more people from disease and sickness than the preacher ever did. "Albert Einstein once said: "The significant problems we have cannot be solved by the same level of thinking with which we created them." That's correct, but I think you have misunderstood Albert's words. He didn't mean to imply that we do nothing and hope God sorts everything out for us. That is the level of thinking that created the problem. | ||
| we_agnostics (we_agnostics) Junior Member Username: we_agnostics Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.238.56.37 |
No, dear one, you have misunderstood MY words. What I have been trying to convey is that those self-professed 'atheists' who say there is no 'god', yet flock to the 'Altar of Technology' in the hope that ONE DAY their (and the world's) problems will be solved, seem to have elevated technology to 'god-like' status! That is all I am trying to say. Try living without a cell phone or computer nowadays. Hey, there is a pill for this and a pill for that. Why, I think I'll just keep driving my gas guzzling SUV, because by the time the world runs out of gas, I'm sure 'they' will have found an alternate fuel (sarcasm). Or, hey, so the air is getting a little dirtier.....well, before we all die of smog, I'm sure 'something' will be done about it! In the meantime, let me keep building bigger houses which take more fuel to heat and cool (sarcasm). You see, I realize that we live in very selfish, self-centered times. People have no respect for our Mother (Earth/Nature). I see the bigger picture, the picture of our Father (the Universe). I might call It 'god', for lack of a shorter word. But you get my drift: People and the tools (technology) of mankind are really speeding us closer to a doomsday of sorts rather than an Eden. Do you agree or disagree? Yes, technology has produced benefits, but think out the flipside. Is it worth having all this technology? I hope I corrected any misinterpretation. With love (unconditionally), ~~~ W_A | ||
| ihavesinned (ihavesinned) Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 1649 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.112.180.149 |
No , I heard you, and I disagree. Utilizing technology is not worshipping it, any more than using toilet paper is worshipping it. I wonder if there is a point here. I don't have an SUV, I don't take pills, and can barely watch T.V. If you are concerned about the environment, I would recommend some activism against whoever the Republicans nominate for president. BTW, here in Washington State, we are working to mandate the use of alternative fuels, (corn -based for now). Several states are heading in this direction. Really. | ||
| zxcvbnm (zxcvbnm) Intermediate Member Username: zxcvbnm Post Number: 244 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 131.191.75.130 |
"Having the very limited knowledge I have at present, I believe that there is no God." "Having the very limited knowledge I have at present, I believe that there is God." goes both ways | ||
| zxcvbnm (zxcvbnm) Intermediate Member Username: zxcvbnm Post Number: 245 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 131.191.75.130 |
we_agnostics... all society's threw out the macrocosm(hole diff topic)will come to a point when technology is about to destroy them . We are at the point, can you all feel the teeter-toter.. hope everybody knows what end to run to | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.136.179 |
Jesus Christ and Satan are gay lovers in hell. Do you know everything? Do you posess ALL the knowledge in the universe? So are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that Jesus and Satan are not gay lovers in hell? What's wrong? You guys liked this argument when it was used to promote the existence of god. The same argument can be used to suggest the existence of anything or any situation with equal credibility. Stupid argument, isn't it? | ||
| zxcvbnm (zxcvbnm) Intermediate Member Username: zxcvbnm Post Number: 247 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 131.191.75.130 |
frank what are you talking about | ||
| labraid New member Username: labraid Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.216.191.211 |
RELIGION IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL HOW CAN YOU PROVE THERE IS A GOD HOW CAN U PROVE ANY OF IT IS REAL, IT IS ALL BASED ON FAITH AND FAITH ALONE, CAN YOU REALY DAMN SOME ONE FOR NOT BELEIVING OR USEING THEIR FREE WILL TO DECIDE FOR THEM SELVES THAT GOD DOES NOT EXSIST OR WHAT IF HE DOES WHAT OF IT I KNOW THAT I AM GOING TO PURGATORY NEVER TO BE REALEASED, NO I AM NOT EVIL OR VERY BAD PERSON BUT I REFUSE TO FIGHT ANY ONES BATTLE. | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 3462 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
Labraid, there is much good information to support your point of view. Check out the ATheist topic. The doctrin of sin is rediculous. The idea that a god, if there were one, could care if anyone worshipped him by anything but good works is smallminded. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 141.155.161.194 |
I heard a good illustration about the possible existence of God. Drawn a big circle--it represents EVERYTHING there is to know. Inside that circle, draw a very small circle--it represents everything we DO know. The question is, outside of that very small circle, is it not possible that PERHAPS there IS a God? (Or alien life forms, etc.) The logical and sane answer is yes, it IS possible. Because none of us knows everything, that God does exist needs to be acknowledged. So for someone to say, "There is no God" means that he/she knows EVERYTHING in the big circle and because of that, he/she KNOWS that within the realm of everything, no God was found. Which is impossible because no human knows everything. So I figure that most people are agnostics -- not sure if there is a God, if it/he/she is the "Christian" God, etc. They may choose to believe there IS no God, but I that in itself is a belief system. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3117 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.40 |
The question is, outside of that very small circle, is it not possible that PERHAPS there IS a God? (Or alien life forms, etc.) Anything is possible. "What is probable?", is the correct question to ask. Because none of us knows everything, that God does exist needs to be acknowledged. No it doesn't. That is a logical fallacy. It does not follow that "God ...needs to be acknowledged" simply because "none of us knows everything". Following that train of thought would have us acknowledging all products of the human imagination with equal importance. }"There is no God" means that he/she knows EVERYTHING in the big circle and because of that, he/she KNOWS that within the realm of everything, no God was found. I disagree for two reasons. One being that it is possible to determine within a reasonable amount of doubt whether or not there is evidence for a specific god worshiped by mankind existing or not. Does Ra exist? Does Horus? Does Thor exist? Does Odin? Does Ahura Mazda exist? Does Allah or Yahweh exist? My second reason for disagreeing is a realization that all human concepts about events beyond their experience are illusionary or delusional by nature. Therefore any concept we "imagine" is out of step with the true reality of experience. They may choose to believe there IS no God, but I that in itself is a belief system. Lack of belief does not a belief system make no more than the lack of anything else creates itself. Its just semantics and quite pointless. When you are saying "God" you are really saying "Creator". If there is something that can be said to have "created" the universe what evidence is there that it favors humans much less life in any way shape or form? The Universe is 99.99% hostile to life of any kind not to mention our fragile version of it. The Universe as a "machine" or "artifact" is obviously not geared toward the creation and support of life forms in guise of human beings. As I believe Steven Hawking has said, the universe main function, if it were "designed" to have one, seems to be the creation of Black Holes and not life forms. How does this play into your concept of a creator-god "God". | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.19.19.129 |
trainedobserver, the topic of this thread is "There is no such thing as an atheist." So when I stated in my example "Because none of us knows everything, that God does exist needs to be acknowledged" I WAS being logical because of the topic being addressed. If the question in this thread was one of "prove that we exist" then of course, it would NOT be logical to introduce "god/God" into the example. Also, you use words like "evidence" that God exists and what we "imagine". Again, my illustration is simply that--a way to reach a logical consensus. I can see by your response that you are familiar with deductive reasoning and the application of multi-dimensional logic principles. Belief drives behavior, but often belief is not based on experience--however, it is STILL a belief system and it really isn't, to me, semantics because your core belief system impacts your values and how you will live your life and treat others. I agree with much of the rest of your response but again, we're not talking about "existence or consciousness" -- we're talking about atheists and why they don't believe in God and if it's possible to "prove" to them that He/It exists. And in response to your statement that God the Creator made a hostile universe...complex life is rare in the universe, and may even be unique to Earth! When God created the universe, He started "big" and established order out of chaos, settled the earth with proper air and water and a garden for Man to live in. So He made a wonderful environment for us to begin our life in -- wasn't hostile at all! | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3118 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.54 |
So when I stated in my example "Because none of us knows everything, that God does exist needs to be acknowledged" I WAS being logical because of the topic being addressed. The topic has nothing to do with it. The structure of the statement is invalid no matter what you might be talking about. You're begging the question among other things. When God created the universe, He started "big" and established order out of chaos, settled the earth with proper air and water and a garden for Man to live in. So He made a wonderful environment for us to begin our life in -- wasn't hostile at all! Well that is one "story" out of thousands that human beings have "imagined" about how the universe and themselves came to be. There is no evidence validating it over any other. Why not continue on and imagine stories about the origin of the creator god? How about the origin story of the creator god creator thing/being? Why does one stop at one level of creators/gods and not some other? The only logical thing to do is to admit the total absurdity of whole proposition. The reality of impermanence reveals the concepts of eternal infinite things as illusions. The only thing of any importance is "now" because "now" is the only thing that actually exists. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 141.155.56.13 |
Um, trained...yes, the topic DOES have EVERYTHING to do with the topic -- it's WHY you posted and I posted in the first place. And of course I know we believe differently and there are 100s--not thousands--of stories about our origin, the "creation myths." Because we can't ever really "know" doesn't mean, to me, that "the only logical thing to do is to admit the total absurdity of whole proposition." You mention impermanence, which is an essential doctrine of the Buddhist, which you may or may not believe. But I believe who we are and where we came from and were we created or just appeared ARE important questions to seek out answers "now" and in the future. It was good exchanging ideas with you. Best, Bachman | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3120 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.56 |
The two ideas "Because none of us knows everything" and "that God does exist needs to be acknowledged" are not actually connected in any way whatsoever. The one idea "none of us knows everything" does not support the notion that a specific concept, in this case one of an amorphous creator "God", must be acknowledged. It simply doesn't. You could insert anything in place of "God" and the statement remains invalid because it is a logical fallacy. Surely you can see that this is true. Impermanence is a Buddhist observation and one that is inarguably true. Of course I believe in the impermanence of all things. It is demonstrated continuously in front of our eyes. Everything is in a constant state of change. Who can deny this? Our human mental and temporal limitations prevent us from comprehending enough of the universe around us at any one time for me to think that we will ever as a species be able to puzzle out our origins or the origins of the universe itself. Its a problem put upon us by the constraints of the laws of physics I'm afraid. It is a question of capacity. I don't think there is anything wrong with considering our origins and the origins of the universe, I just don't think we should put that much weight to what our conclusions may be. Its the only intelligent way to approach such a subject. Yes Virgina, there are atheists. We are all atheists of one bent or another. I am an atheist to all god concepts where you are atheistic to all but one or maybe two. I assume that you are an atheist in regard to the Odin or Ahura Mazda gods but are not in regard to some other. I honestly do not think, believe, or feel that any god concept capable of being held in the mind of a human being could in any way begin to even approach what the reality of what a "Creator God" would have to be in the first place. I for all practical purposes do not believe in supernatural creator gods that bring things into existence and meddle in the affairs of human society. In the language that I speak, English, that makes me an atheist. | ||
| ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 3054 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.227.137.123 |
Well played sir. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3127 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.170.113.133 |
Well perhaps ...but I seem to have been dismissed. How ya' been doing, long time no see and all that. | ||
| ihavesinned Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 3055 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.227.137.123 |
Hanging in there - life's tough when you don't exist you know...how 'bout yourself? Yep, it seems they've run for z hills on this one. Why is it so impossible to think people might not believe in god? I don't think I've ever said I know there's no god, only that I don't believe it. If someone can produce him, I'll gladly change my tune. |
