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Message |
    
cky (cky)
Member
Username: cky
Post Number: 94
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 69.29.7.43
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 5:52 pm: | 
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JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ARE WACKED OUT |
arron (arron)
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 1047
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.32.209
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 8:09 pm: |
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amen to that. i had a friend who went with his college group who were studing different religions to a jw meeting house and were asked when they came in who they came with they said no one we come on our own, they were told not asked to leave and were told they had to be invited and come with someone who went there |
cky (cky)
Member
Username: cky
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 137.3.122.49
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 7:00 am: |
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No doubt Aaron,
I hear they kill people who leave. |
evident (evident)
New member
Username: evident
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 12.207.51.42
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 7:51 pm: |
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Uh, no, they don't kill people who leave. They just suck the life from people who stay.
They do view those who live as figuratively dead, but they know they are literally alive. What they don't know is the lives of those who leave are often much happier than the lives of those who stay.
They don't know because they keep chanting in each other's ears, "Jehovah's Witnesses are the happiest people on earth." Like any cult, they believe the life they are living is the best way to live life and after a while can't imagine TRULY enjoying any other way of life.
Evident |
dondi (dondi)
Junior Member
Username: dondi
Post Number: 37
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 70.135.182.39
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
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THAT Armageddon and Christ's second coming were foretold to happen in 1874, 1914, 1925 and 1975 by this "non-prophet" organization. |
dondi (dondi)
Junior Member
Username: dondi
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 70.135.182.39
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 8:20 pm: |
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THAT when Christ failed to show up in 1914 The Society claimed in later years that He had come invisibly--of course, and all Jehovah's Witnesses believe this today. |
dondi (dondi)
Junior Member
Username: dondi
Post Number: 41
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 70.135.182.39
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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THAT Jehovah God is not omnipresent, but still Almighty. Think! How can this be? |
marilyn_m
Intermediate Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 114
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 142.177.92.219
| | Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 8:15 pm: |
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evident, you are absolutely right.
I left the jw's 11 years ago & after I got over the guilt & shame they make one feel, I finally started to be happy.
One former jw friend whom treated me like dirt after leaving is now disfollowshipped herself & my daughter in law who told me that I was not good association for her family is also now disfollowshipped. funny that what goes around comes around. |
jlb
New member
Username: jlb
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 216.193.176.235
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 2:27 pm: |
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I have written before about my grandson becoming a JW about 5-6 years ago. He met a girl there . She seems nice. They both were drawn there --I think_ because they came from troubled home lives with their families. They have since married . They were married in December of 2005. Our family (my side) sees nothing of them any more.Don't really know if she sees her family or not. He once lived with me on and off for a few years in later teen years.At the time of the wedding he didn't even want to invite his aunts-uncles-cousins . He said it was because he didn't have room for them--although he had about 100 guests--mostly all JW's. They all seemed like very nice people--but I have noticed he nor his wife seem to want to associate with our family any more--even though nothing specifically happened, that I know of. He seems to feel that we are not people he desires to associate with. I feel they are being brain washed not to associate with any of us. He claims to be busy. I know for years when the family gets together at Holiday times--they can't come. What do they do hibernate??? |
inkorrekt
Intermediate Member
Username: inkorrekt
Post Number: 302
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 207.93.211.50
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:04 am: |
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How said it is to be treated like dirt and outcasts by own family. Yes, I came out of another cult. this cult also cuts off the family members who are not into this cult.They teach SEPARATION. Separation from the world. According to them, the noncultists are the worldly people. I went to visit my sister in London. They were always associated with other members of this cult. They would not introduce me even to them.
The other day, I saw avery attractive young lady dstributing the JW tracts to the passengers in the bus. Almost everyone efused to accept. after a while, she did the 2nd round. Onelady told her, "I do not want it" Then she was looking for someone else who happened to be an illegal immigrant from Mexico. He wanted Spanish. She had it and handed over to him. I could not wait. I told her that she was "Selling the Wrong God" .She looked at me and told me." I am not selling anything".I told her that she was giving them away and still it was about the wrong God. She became angry and asked me,"Do you read the Bible"? I said yes. Then I asked her"Who wrote their Bible and their prophecies. She said, I do not want to argue with you(reason is obvious that they cannot argue) This is their only defence. I told her that one day we are going to stand before the TRUE GOd and you will have to answer Him. |
artdog
New member
Username: artdog
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 71.106.170.48
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:28 pm: |
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OK... I have to throw my hat into the ring.
I grew up as a JW. I don't go any longer because I disagree with way things are gone about. I disagree with completely seperating oneself from everything in the "world", I disagree with the seperation of the congregation from those who are disfellowshiped (afterall, if someone needs help, why push them away?)
I was considered bad assosiation for the simple fact that my father wasn't a JW. I believed that I needed to be no part of the world, so I had no friends at school. I was very very lonely. When it was found out that I was going to college, despite the fact that the society had said that it was OK and that one needed education so as not to be a burden... I was completely igored.
In college I started learning different views. My first friend was gay. I ended up marrying a catholic, got divorced, got pregnant out of wedlock...I'm considered a bad girl...
Heres the thing though... Though I disagree with the way things are taught... I disagree HIGHLY with anyone bashing ANY religion. People are individuals. Within every religion you are going to get a range of passiveness to zealousness.
Since I've pretty much distanced myself from the JWs...I've gone to other churches to see for myself the different religions teachings.
I found the Catholic churchgoers I met to be just going through the motions.
I found Born Agains to be too overly zealous, and have been told repeatedly that I'm going to hell.
Mormons looked down on me, and treated me like I was no good.
I find Budhism interesting, but really complicated.
And Scientologists scare the buggers out of me.
Basicly, I think everyone needs to search in their own heart, pray, and find God for themselves. Too many wars are started over religions. And I can't really get behind any organization that is established and run by people... People that are imperfect, and have their own opinions, and views.
THAT BEING SAID.
Here in the USA. We have something called a Bill of rights. And that says that everyone has freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of press. If you don't agree with someone, just politly say "no thank you". |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 4:36 pm: |
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Artdog:
Dear Lady, every family has problems, the Christian (or anything else you may choose) family you choose, will be that family. With family comes problems, disagreements, mistakes, minor and major, and issues however, the fact is; that does not mean it is not a family and or it is not a good family. Families have structure, or rules that make or allow it to function as such and then again some don’t. That is how you get the differences in functional and dysfunctional.
By your way of reasoning, the manner in which God treated the Jews, (as described in the Bible) like a wife, it’s system of worship, with arduous rules and regulations, with sacrifices, along with the non permission or restriction of the mixing of non Jews (though others could if they changed their religion etc. mix in) with Jews due to fear of having these non Jews change one’s religion etc.; was and is what it is! Now if you disagree with this, then you disagree with the God of the Bible, as this is the written biblical history of the relationship between God and the Nation of Israel. Let’s face it, people were executed at the order of God, via Moses and other prophets for practicing false religion—meaning any religion that was not God’s as practiced by faithful Jews, as again, described in the Bible accounts.
Somehow or another with Christianity, while having the same God today, with people not being put to death (not yet anyway) for practicing false religion, do you really think God has changed his mind about how he feels about religious teachings that he does not approve of? The answer to this question let’s you know where you are in the scheme of things.
In the end, the matter of discipline, (of which “disfellowshipping” is the highest form of) is in the Bible, and is no different than what governments do to keep law and order in their respective countries; you break the law, you get punished, depending upon the crime, from tickets, to executions etc, so, if governments, or mankind can do this, enforce their own laws (discipline their masses) why would God not be able too enforce laws as well, or rather discipline the masses. Is He of less value?
After all, if you mug someone, it would be tuff love, I guess, that you would have to pay the price? Right? In other words, if you do something wrong, that causes you to go to jail, then by default one has separateness forced upon you, until such time that you are deemed appropriate to be free, meaning introduced to back into society (after doing your time). I also guess that the idea of leaving people that belong in jail on the street, kinda loses the purpose of the “jail discipline” as they can continue their crime spree etc. without control, to the detriment of the public at large.
In the end, it seems you have issues with the Bible account of things against what you desire or want to do.
Therefore, the people, or group, in the end has nothing to do with it. |
crawly
Junior Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.115
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:32 pm: |
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notice how praetorian posts a huge amount of fluff, and then says everyone must be having a problem with "the bible".
the fluff is designed to sorta get your mind off of the real discussion, and then have the last word.
it is a cult tactic used by jws.
they persecute ex-members, and do everything possible to ruin their reputations, even requiring their families to never speak to them again, for the rest of their life.
they claim anyone who disagrees with their leadership is no longer a christian and therefore "wicked"...... so, current jw members must treat them as "wicked persons" and stay away from them. |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 1:33 pm: |
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"In the end, it seems you have issues with the Bible account of things against what you desire or want to do."
Oh, really? Where in the bible does it say not to celebrate birthdays? Where in the bible does it say you cannot smoke? Where in the bible does it say you can't have a life-saving medical treatment (blood transfusion)? Where in the bible does it say you can't vote? Celebrate Mother's Day? Go to an R rated movie? Give a Christmas gift? Where does it say women cannot wear trousers to the Kingdom Hall? Go to college? Where does it command "publishers" to put in hours knocking on doors to get converts? Where does it say that married people can't have oral sex?
All of the above are just a few examples of the vast number of non-biblical fabricated "rules" the JWs have made up. Rules for which people found doing any of them would be brought before a judicial committee for discipline and possibly disfellowshipping, including being shunned.
The JWs make burdensome, non-scriptural rules and regulations based on the the ideas of MEN, men back in Brooklyn. Therefore, to suggest people who don't follow them just aren't following the bible is deceitful. But then, again, that's what JWs excel in: deceit. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 169
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
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Crawly:
If I have stated fluff point it out, however, if I point you to the Bible as doing something, and show that your opinion runs contrary to it, then why do you criticize me for doing this, by pointing it out!
Instead if I am not pointing it out, then feel free to show everyone on this board, including me, where I did so! However, if I did point you to the Bible, it stands to reason dude, that your issue is with the Bible scripture not anyone else who believes it!
There is no last work issues here, as you can easily see, that tact simple does not work, except with young children when angry at each other; YOU DID, I DID NOT, YOU DID, I DID NOT; Your age is showing kid!!!
Are we on the Scientology thread or other thread! You say they persecute ex-members, now you must be smoking dope! Pal, kid, whatever, while there are several people here, on this board who love your views, this one is simply wrong! But you will say what you want to say as you need to get in the last word kid! It does not matter if it is right or wrong, because it’s your way of doing things! YOU DID!!!!!
Help me with this, since I am somewhat confused! When the 1 Corinthians 5:9-12 says, (NIV) “I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people, not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?” What does this mean?
P |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 170
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:47 pm: |
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junefever:
(This will be more than one post: 1 of 3 though could be more or less)
The Bible mentions two birthdays, both were God’s enemies, Pharaoh of Egypt and King Herod who executed John the Baptist and help execute Jesus Christ. Due to this, the JW Christian feels that they prefer not to take the chance to offend God, and avoid celebrating it. Let me know if you need the passages to this?
Regarding smoking, the principle behind this for them, is found (there are others in this vein) in Romans 12:1,”Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason” thus they feel that since medical evidence shows that cigarette smoking is harmful to the person, and to others, that it would not good to do, in view of this and other scriptures that support the same thought as in Romans. Now think about this; Is this something bad?
Regarding Blood, while they love life and believe in medicine, they believe that the taking of blood transfusions (not blood alternative treatments, which are many) conflicts with several scriptures, though I will only point to two here; Acts 15:28 and 29 and also in Genesis 9: 3, 4.
First JW’s do vote, as demonstrated by the fact that at their Christian meetings they vote to adopt resolutions etc. however, I believe you mean voting in political elections. While they do not do so, they do not interfere, prevent or campaign against others from doing so! They take very seriously Jesus words, and scriptural admonition found in John 17: 14,”They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world” and also John 18:36, that the Kingdom of God they believe in, is a real functioning government, and their allegiance is to it only, as it is no part of the world so they remain neutral as their brothers and sisters are found in every country of the world, and thereby they avoid being in conflict with one another due to being neutral!
Continued Below: |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 171
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:48 pm: |
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(2 of 3 for sure)
The issue with Mothers Day and other celebrations like it, they again take the scripture quoted above John 17:14, (and others like it) and simply choose not to celebrate anything that (celebrations like these are often popular in one country though are not celebrated in others) while popular with the “world” is not supported in thought or in principal in the Bible! However, with that said, they love their families, and give gifts often and gather together for the sake of being together, and they feel that they celebrate the life of their mother and father everyday, by they manner in which they actually respect and treat them, not needing anyone to tell them what to do and when in this regard. It is interesting to note how many often celebrate these holidays like Mothers Day to only to ignore or abuse their mother on all other days.
For R rated movies they use the principal found in Ephesians (though there are others) 5: 3-5 that even states things that should “…not even be mentioned…” among them, things like curse words, and bad acts. In the end, some JW’s do go and watch these types of movies which they would or could not do if they were a cult.
As to women’s dress (you must be a women) and pants, “1 Timothy 2:9 and 10, states “Likewise I desire the women to adorn themselves in well-arranged dress, with modesty and soundness of mind, not with styles of hair braiding and gold or pearls or very expensive garb, but in the way that befits women professing to reverence God, namely, through good works”, and therefore as a group, they have decided that at their meetings of worship, men usually wear suits, or sport jackets and ties, and women, dresses, or skirts. Now outside of worship women where pants etc. as many professed Christian Pentecostal and other religions do not permit this. In the end, this is the right of any organization, group or Church to decide for themselves what would be proper and improper at their meetings and in this they are no different than those who practice such things. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 172
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:52 pm: |
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junefever: (3 of 3)
On going to college, you are greatly mistaken, my wife did, (who is a JW) and several JW’s have gone to Universities and continued on as JW’s, and many don’t. It is no secret that they warn young ones about the environment found at many institutions, but in the end, it is up to the individual to make this decision and once made no one is to judge anyone about their own personal decisions. (Something not to be found in a cult)
As to preaching (though there are many scriptures) it clearly states in Matthew 28: 19 and 20 (Interesting to note Jesus last recorded words here) to go and make disciples of all the nations etc. Their work is both one of disciple making in line with Jesus command, (as it is a command in the Greek) and also that of warning.
As to oral sex, the Bible does not reply on point and this is up to each individual Christian as to what they will do or not do in the bedroom! And there are scriptures that provide guidance on this area as well! Let me know if you need me to cite them.
You state, “All of the above are just a few examples of the vast number of non-biblical fabricated "rules" the JWs have made up” and I have shown you scriptures that are either on point or that provide principles for governing one’s life, so I feel your statement is not fair! The bible speaks about disfellowshipping, so let me know if you need me to point this out to you as well!
Ok, you sum up your post with the thought that JW’s are deceitful, however, it may be good to remember that they are not on membership drives, nor do they go around baptizing people who just “Believe” as it were. To become one, they study usually for a considerable amount of time, and all of these things are disclosed to those who become one! That is far from being deceitful! What would be deceitful is, if they did not disclose this to people and then just arbitrarily disfellowshipped people.
And as with any group, people, organization, or Church they most certainly have the right to set down the guidelines by which they operate, and enforce those accordingly especially if there is disclosure to the same.
P
P.S. Please pardon me in advance for errors in grammar and spelling as I did this quickly and was not able to double check it! |
jlb
New member
Username: jlb
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 216.193.176.187
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 8:40 pm: |
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In response of an explanation and Bible quotes in reference to not celebrating birthdays and other holidays. I did not really feel the Bible verses quoted were in connection to these things. Blood transfusions? Acts 15:28-29 and Gen 9:3-4 speak of EATING blood . I didn't make any of the other connections with the verses. You speak of loving the family and getting together and giving gifts,-- BUT-- it would never be with non-JW's who get together usually on a holiday since most people work on other days and all(including JW's) have off and sometimes get paid on such holidays and find that this is a great time to SHARE time together. And as far as voting for such rights---I believe JW's will all share in the outcome. And to DISRESPECT sauluting the flag is a big disgrace. If it weren't for our country and people who fight for our freedom, the JW's and others would never have the right to disregard ethics as the JW's do. I know some of your responce would be --not to bear arms and not to kill. I, as a Christian agree to this. There are other ways to serve your country. Not to turn your backs on this war. The Bible says there will be wars and rumors of wars.Luke 21:9-10. Other verses substaniate this too. Birthdays are inevitable since we were all born and that day is another year.By hiding from it doesn't change the fact. In this world we ALL live in birthdays are recorded and you need this to prove certain things, so not recognizing this doesn't make it go away. I see no sin in any of this. Only JW's want to make this so using the word PAGAN for such things. Thanksgiving is one of the worst holiday to disregard. It is all about giving thanks for what we have and praising God. How can this be wrong???I think you will say SOME don't do this --they want to rejoice in eating. Well that is just another way to be grateful to God for all we have. Luke 15:23. They CELEBRATED,they ate and were merry. |
crawly
Junior Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 34
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.158
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 10:27 pm: |
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that was funny, praetorian!
the gov body disfellowship people for figuring out that they are wicked con artist false prophets!
your wicked gov body is the wicked party, not those that they disfellowship.... matt 24;24
the jw gov body has no authority at all..... they are just false prophets deserving death.... deut 18;20 |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 178
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 1:40 pm: |
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Crawly:
Since you are good are repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is!
One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’
Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board.
I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.”
P |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 179
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 2:18 pm: |
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Jib:
You reply that the explanation given on Birthdays and holidays is insufficient. The JW for the reasons given feel differently. For a moment please, take this out of the realm of religion, and imagine that you were in a position that required you to meet with a foreign dignitary, and in researching their customs it was discovered that a that a “practice” of one of their enemies may or will offend the visitor, though it does not necessarily offend you; Would you offer that “practice” to them in your welcome? If not why not? If so, then do you believe that you would risk ruining or getting the relationship off to a bad start? This is the point!
If as humans we do things to go out of our way not insult others and not offend them, in certain circumstances, then why does God deserve any less treatment? The same holds true with other scriptures, even if you don’t agree.
As with Blood, the prohibition is plainly stated and clear, however, some people feel that it is antiquated while the JW does not! How is a person fed in a hospital when they cannot eat? Intravenously, they get their food as it were, again this is how the JW feels and they are entitled to their feelings and opinions as others!
I know of families, that often give gifts to their non JW family members, and I know of others that don’t! It is the person that acts that way, as people forget that JW’s are people too, filled with intelligent, stupid, generous and some not so generous etc, people!
The early Christians were not involved in or did not vote in political matters neither do the JW’s.
As for the flag, I like a true story of JW student who was in a class, where a teacher asked one of her other students who saluted the flag to come to the front of the room and then ordered the student to spit on the flag! The student listened to the teacher and complied! The JW student was directed to do the same; the outcome; The JW Student replied that while not believing in the flag they respected it and refused! Which one of these students truly respects the flag?
Many of the freedoms enjoyed in the US (especially) and in many lands were made available due to the legal contributions of JW’s, and some research on your end will easily support this! There are many ways to support freedom, other than killing other humans, that JW’s will not do! In WWI and WWII, Christians of the same religion were killing Christians of the same religion, this may work for you but it does not for the JW Christian.
Again JW’s have nothing against celebrations, they just don’t do anything that may remotely offend their God of his King designate; there is a well established American saying that goes, ‘When in doubt, do without?” Humans give each other this consideration, well then, how much more does God and his Son deserve our giving them the same consideration!
P |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 180
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 2:22 pm: |
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Crawly:
Since you are good are repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is!
One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’
Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board.
I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.”
P |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 2:38 pm: |
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"The Bible mentions two birthdays, both were God’s enemies, Pharaoh of Egypt and King Herod who executed John the Baptist and help execute Jesus Christ. Due to this, the JW Christian feels that they prefer not to take the chance to offend God, and avoid celebrating it.”
So, by your logic, if anything bad happened at a certain event, god must disapprove of the entire celebration? Jesus getting crucified was a really bad thing. But he told people to keep celebrating by drinking wine symbolizing his blood, and eating bread (symbolizing his flesh. So your analogy doesn't hold water. Nowhere in the bible does it say you must not celebrate birthdays. And I’d have to wonder about a god who would be offended at the celebration of life. Those conclusions were drawn by MEN, not God. To claim otherwise is deceitful. No other religious group has gathered that interpretion from the bible. Quite a stretch.
”Regarding smoking, the principle behind this for them, is found (there are others in this vein) in Romans 12:1,”Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason” thus they feel that since medical evidence shows that cigarette smoking is harmful to the person, and to others, that it would not good to do, in view of this and other scriptures that support the same thought as in Romans. Now think about this; Is this something bad?”
Whether it’s bad or not is not the issue. The issue is that MEN are taking it upon themselves to pick and choose what personal habits are acceptable or not, when none of it is mentioned in the bible. Gluttony, in fact, is mentioned in the bible. Obesity is extremely unheathly; many believe more so than cigarette smoking. But you don’t hear of people getting disfellowshipped for being too fat. Again, JWs pick and choose what “principles” they wish to follow.
”Regarding Blood, while they love life and believe in medicine, they believe that the taking of blood transfusions (not blood alternative treatments, which are many) conflicts with several scriptures, though I will only point to two here; Acts 15:28 and 29 and also in Genesis 9: 3, 4. “
Covered that one before. Primitive religious beliefs—including stoning children to death—have no place in modern medical decisions. Again, the JWs are the only group that came up with this interpretation.
”First JW’s do vote, as demonstrated by the fact that at their Christian meetings they vote to adopt resolutions etc. however, I believe you mean voting in political elections. While they do not do so, they do not interfere, prevent or campaign against others from doing so! They take very seriously Jesus words, and scriptural admonition found in John 17: 14,”They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world”
Again, they alone have this unique interpretation. What exactly being no part of the world means is obviously up to personal interpretation. JWs work, go to school, benefit from the government they so plainly claim to shun, they form corporations to take advantage of their so called “religious” status, they get involved in lawsuits….the list goes on. Again, it is the men in Bethel who pick and choose their religious interpretation. There’s nothing Biblical about it. |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 5:08 pm: |
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”The issue with Mothers Day and other celebrations like it...(they) simply choose not to celebrate anything that...while popular with the “world” is not supported in thought or in principal in the Bible! However, with that said, they love their families, and give gifts often and gather together for the sake of being together, and they feel that they celebrate the life of their mother and father everyday, by they manner in which they actually respect and treat them, not needing anyone to tell them what to do and when in this regard. It is interesting to note how many often celebrate these holidays like Mothers Day to only to ignore or abuse their mother on all other days.”
I certainly think “honor thy parents” carries the spirit of celebrating Mothers’ Day. Regardless, by your lame logic, why do JWs celebrate wedding anniversaries? Does that mean that they love each other only one day a year?
"For R rated movies they use the principal found in Ephesians (though there are others) 5: 3-5 that even states things that should “…not even be mentioned…” among them, things like curse words, and bad acts. In the end, some JW’s do go and watch these types of movies which they would or could not do if they were a cult."
Again, the “principle.” Those words can be used to make any arbitrary ruling they want (which they do). And there have been people who have been summoned to judicial meetings because they saw an R rated movie. Again, you’re being deceitful.
"As to women’s dress (you must be a women) and pants, “1 Timothy 2:9 and 10, states “Likewise I desire the women to adorn themselves in well-arranged dress, with modesty and soundness of mind, not with styles of hair braiding and gold or pearls or very expensive garb, but in the way that befits women professing to reverence God, namely, through good works”, and therefore as a group, they have decided that at their meetings of worship, men usually wear suits, or sport jackets and ties, and women, dresses, or skirts. Now outside of worship women where pants etc. as many professed Christian Pentecostal and other religions do not permit this. In the end, this is the right of any organization, group or Church to decide for themselves what would be proper and improper at their meetings and in this they are no different than those who practice such things.”
Clearly, the scripture you reference refers to women not looking gawdy, elaborate, or like a whore. It’s a complete stretch to suggest that means they cannot wear slacks—which actually can be considered more modest--and show less skin-- than dresses. Nor does it make a distinction as to where they can wear such items and where they cannot, i.e., they can wear slacks outside of the KH. A woman whose modest will be modest all of the time, not just at a meeting.
Why do you bring the Pentecostals and other groups into this? Again, the point is that some guy(s) in NYC decided they don’t want to see women in pants. It doesn’t come from Jehovah—it’s their personal interpretation. |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 5:34 pm: |
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"On going to college, you are greatly mistaken, my wife did, (who is a JW) and several JW’s have gone to Universities and continued on as JW’s, and many don’t. It is no secret that they warn young ones about the environment found at many institutions, but in the end, it is up to the individual to make this decision and once made no one is to judge anyone about their own personal decisions."
Are you seriously denying JWs don’t discourage higher education? They have expressly done so through their publications and peer pressure. Again, JWs trying to rewrite history.
"As to preaching (though there are many scriptures) it clearly states in Matthew 28: 19 and 20 (Interesting to note Jesus last recorded words here) to go and make disciples of all the nations etc. Their work is both one of disciple making in line with Jesus command, (as it is a command in the Greek) and also that of warning."
Do you really think Jesus would approve of counting hours spent in preaching, and all the reporting the organizations does? I don’t.
"As to oral sex, the Bible does not reply on point and this is up to each individual Christian as to what they will do or not do in the bedroom! And there are scriptures that provide guidance on this area as well! Let me know if you need me to cite them."
Again, deceit. I am aware of numerous couples who appeared before judicial committees and were forced to spill their very private sexual practices before the “elders.” Again, the “principles” you speak of are concoctions coming from the boys at Bethel, who have personal issues with certain things. They may have relaxed their ruling since, but don’t try to claim their rules were based on scripture.
"The bible speaks about disfellowshipping, so let me know if you need me to point this out to you as well!"
The bible also speaks of stoning people. For adultery, for gluttony. For being lazy. Thank God JWs are reined in by modern laws. No telling what they’d do if not.
"Ok, you sum up your post with the thought that JW’s are deceitful...And as with any group, people, organization, or Church they most certainly have the right to set down the guidelines by which they operate, and enforce those accordingly especially if there is disclosure to the same."
You hit the nail on the head. “As with any group” directed by men. The issue is they claim to be God’s chosen ones; they alone have the “truth.” In reality, they’re just another man-made religious-corporate organization. Follow them at your own risk. It could cost you your very life. I'm here to help warn people against them. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 192
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
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Ms. Junefever:
(Post 1 of 2)
This response is particularly for your post number 10 above as you posted two more times before I could even respond to this post!!!
I have done my best to explain why it is that JW’s do or do not do something, and this is all I can do, however, before I can reply and between my replies to you; I am trying to be fair and respond to all of the points you raise, you post again while I am also dealing with posts by inkorrekt and crawly, so I am having trouble keeping up with all of you while maintaining my responsibilities.
It was not my logic, but a reason for why the JW does not do something. However, it is your analogy that is off base, as I would never want to execute someone ever, and nor does the JW! Jesus dying however was absolutely necessary for the forgiveness of sins and therefore his command, interestingly enough to “celebrate” or “commemorate” his death! The Bible is full of commands of God becoming offended by people who did “seemingly” harmless things that celebrated various things of life.
I mentioned to Jib on, I think another thread, that if you were to take religion out of this discussion and instead think of yourself in a position where you would be greeting a dignitary of a foreign land, that you would obviously take the time to learn about them and their culture! Ad if you learned that their was a custom or practice that their enemy practiced, (that from your standpoint was not offensive) that could or would possibly be offensive to the dignitary, that you would most probably avoid such a practice. So too with the mind set of JW when it comes to anything that may smack of false religion etc. or that “may” offend their Heavenly Father. Call it what you want, but it is what it is!
The Bible is full of examples where people did things from what appeared to be good motive only to be slain by God in his anger! It is about allowing God’s thoughts to be first in one’s life not the other way around! |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 193
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 5:53 pm: |
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(Part 2 of 2)
Junefever how do you propose (during these times) for a Church or organization on earth, that claims to be from God to function? With order or disorder? On earth logic dictates that someone needs to manage it, and so forth, so would it be better for the JW’s to operate out of say Moscow Russia, as it seems you are making an issue over location and the few men! You need humans to run or manage an entity on earth, and that is true of any church you may attend, and also you will need a fixed point, or location to operate from, so where do you suggest they do so? If you believe in the Bible then you know that not all people will be saved, and many or most will not! Thus, will these ones be agreeable to those who will? (Matthew 7: 13, 14 and 21-23).
Dear lady, the Bible does not mention every aspect of life, like nothing is said about retarded people, autism, automobiles, or jet plans, or psychological problems etc, and yet this is where one looks to the Bible to get the principle of a matter in order to govern the same! This is what they believe or anyone else who sincerely believes that they are God’s people on earth!
As far as being no part of the world and yet being in it, is completely discussed in John Chapter 17, which also mentions how one should deal with issues like employment etc, while being in the world. You should try reading the entire chapter for this understanding whether you agree with them or not! For instance in 17:16, where it says they are not part of the world, in 15 the verse before it, Jesus in prayer to his Father makes request and supplication to watch over them because despite their not being part of the world, they have to be and live in the world.
Junefever, what does it mean to you what is found in John 13:16 and John 15: 17 and 18? Do you not think that these scriptures have application today as they did back then?
You have strong feelings about this, and I heard you and respect you, however, know that I do not agree with your views and that there are many people who do not!
P |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 8:17 pm: |
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"This response is particularly for your post number 10 above as you posted two more times before I could even respond to this post!!!"
I posted, in order, to all of your three posts. I believe I addressed all of the issues. |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 8:25 pm: |
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"I mentioned to Jib on, I think another thread, that if you were to take religion out of this discussion and instead think of yourself in a position where you would be greeting a dignitary of a foreign land, that you would obviously take the time to learn about them and their culture! Ad if you learned that their was a custom or practice that their enemy practiced, (that from your standpoint was not offensive) that could or would possibly be offensive to the dignitary, that you would most probably avoid such a practice. So too with the mind set of JW when it comes to anything that may smack of false religion etc. or that “may” offend their Heavenly Father. Call it what you want, but it is what it is!"
Is not Jehovah the father of all men? Does he not see into their hearts and minds? Can he not determine when something is done in good faith and for good intentions, as opposed to when it's done for wrong reasons? You seem to sell Jehovah too short. You portray him as a petty, jealous god. That's not how Jesus portrayed him.
"The Bible is full of examples where people did things from what appeared to be good motive only to be slain by God in his anger! It is about allowing God’s thoughts to be first in one’s life not the other way around!"
You actually assume to know God's thoughts? Again, you portray God as a petty, jealous, small-minded creature. That's not the God Jesus portrayed. |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 11:58 pm: |
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Praetorian wrote:
"It was not my logic, but a reason for why the JW does not do something. However, it is your analogy that is off base, as I would never want to execute someone ever, and nor does the JW!"
No, it's not my analogy. The analogy comes straight from the JWs. They overtly use the fact that rebels were executed in ancient Israel to justify disfellowshipping.
This comes directly from their official website, under "shunning":
"Why is such a firm stand appropriate even today? Well, reflect on the severe cutting off mandated in God's Law to Israel. In various serious matters, willful violators were executed. (Leviticus 20:10; Numbers 15:30, 31) When that happened, others, even relatives, could no longer speak with the dead lawbreaker. (Leviticus 19:1-4; Deuteronomy 13:1-5; 17:1-7) Though loyal Israelites back then were normal humans with emotions like ours, they knew that God is just and loving and that his Law protected their moral and spiritual cleanness. So they could accept that his arrangement to cut off wrongdoers was fundamentally a good and right thing.—Job 34:10-12.
We can be just as sure that God's arrangement that Christians refuse to fellowship with someone who has been expelled for unrepentant sin is a wise protection for us. "Clear away the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, according as you are free from ferment." (1 Corinthians 5:7) By also avoiding persons who have deliberately disassociated themselves, Christians are protected from possible critical, unappreciative, or even apostate views.
— Hebrews 12:15, 16.
What About Relatives?
God certainly realizes that carrying out his righteous laws about cutting off wrongdoers often involves and affects relatives. As mentioned above, when an Israelite wrongdoer was executed, no more family association was possible. In fact, if a son was a drunkard and a glutton, his parents were to bring him before the judges, and if he was unrepentant, the parents were to share in the just executing of him, 'to clear away what is bad from the midst of Israel.'"
Either you are unaware of their stance, or you are being deliberately deceitful. I suggest you familiarize yourself with their beliefs. You may not tolerate executions, but based on their stated principles, above, they feel totally justified in symbolically executing people who don't think as they do. |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 12:54 pm: |
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"They all seemed like very nice people--but I have noticed he nor his wife seem to want to associate with our family any more--even though nothing specifically happened, that I know of. He seems to feel that we are not people he desires to associate with. I feel they are being brain washed not to associate with any of us. He claims to be busy. I know for years when the family gets together at Holiday times--they can't come. What do they do hibernate???"
No, they convince themselves that they're gaining salvation by pleasing a jealous god who despises celebrations, esp if they aren't in his name. They actually think their god is more pleased with shunning, deviding family, and forgoing warm feelings and holiday cheer than he is with family togetherness, warmth, compassion, and sharing. That sort of God doesn't sound at all worth worshipping to normal, caring people.
They don't want to be around you because their highly controlled cult tells them that they shouldn't become "unevenly yoked with unbelievers." Translation: the more love and fellowship they find outside of the cult, the more threat there is that they might leave the cult.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the celebrations JWs prohibit; their flimsy excuses that there is a scriptural basis for them is just a cover for their promoting a classic cult practice: dividing you from friends/family who might influence you away from their control.
Not that you are, but don't take it personally--it's not you at all. In fact, I can almost bet that they are divided within themselves. They probably would love a relationship with you and love to celebrate holidays, but their thought-stopping and guilt-tripping cult techniques help convince them they are "pleasing Jehovah."
Any relationship with them is on THEIR terms. They won't celebrate holidays with you--convenient times when most people are off. They will, however, celebrate wedding anniversaries and the memorial. And, at least with the memorial, would love nothing more than for you to attend. |
jlb
New member
Username: jlb
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 216.193.176.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 8:29 pm: |
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Junefever-----I too have been sort of abandoned by my grandson and his wife. They are JW's. I had written a year or so ago and again last week. My biggest complaint is that they can't seem to associate with us non-JW's. I believe in God and I believe in John 3:16. I have friends who are Christians and some non-Christians. I love them all. I do wish they would accept Christ as their savior, but because they don't I wouldn't push them away.I agree that the Holiday (no clebrating ) and not being able to mingle with the family really upsets me. This makes just no sense at all. Practorian tried to explain to me , but I'm afraid I still can't comprehend.As I wrote what Holiday is so tied in with giving thanks to God ? Thanksgiving is all about giving thanks to God for what we have , but my grandson and his wife have never been able to gather together in HIS name and give thanks.This can't be explained to me. It is rediculous.And your are right saying that JW's are trying to please" THEIR GOD " Tell me --this celebration should be pleasing to God--NO? Why would this act be ofensive? And they do celebrate weddings. My grandson was so selective on inviting our family(none of us are JW's)He almost eliminated us all and invited all his JEHOVAH family. I really believe they have become his family. He has not once visited any family since the wedding almost two years ago--other then his mother and father--They never even sent any of the family a thank you card for their generous gifts. And non of them were anything but loving with him. I had to practically beg him to invite his aunt and uncle and he really didn't want his cousins. Yet he was so very close with them all before he became a JW. It is sad how he has changed.I talked to him about inviting them and he came up with such lame excuses.AND PRACTORIAN YOU REALLY DIDN'T COME UP WITH AN ANSWER ABOUT LUKE 15:23 "AND BRING HITHER THE FATTED CALF, AND KILL IT; AND LET US EAT, AND BE MERRY" Was this not a celebration? And you really have no defence about birthdays.The day we were born is a birthday. Also your defence of not saluting the flag. Do you feal this is a form of worship?It is showing respect for our nation, but again you don't reginize voting., which is a priviledge.So you live in this world and reap the harvest but you feel the world is not of your world. You really can't have it two ways. We are here in this world now and should suport things that God gives us. We don't need to go all the worldly and corrupt ways, but still give support and not turn our backs.I believe in living for God and to WITNESS also .And Accept Christ as our savior and look forward to going to heaven to be with him eternally. (But, is this what you belive in???) |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 199
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 3:24 pm: |
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Junefever:
(Reply to Your Post Number 13 above)
I was referring to your response, which I understood you to be expressing your reasoning or logic on how faulty my post was, but so be it. Again, the practice is taken from the Bible. Do you believe that it is not? I could not find what you reference (not saying you made it up) above about disfellowshipping and shunning, and went to their site and found on this web link (http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm) as an answer to the question, “Do you shun former members” and think it speaks for itself and differently than what you state above. This link also makes clear that unlike the nation of Israel where one was executed, (meaning no returning) person who is disfellowshipped can get reinstated, which is certainly not as you describe it to be.
I think by showing the quote to the web link above I am doing my best to avoid error or deceitful.
P |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 200
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 3:44 pm: |
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Junefever:
(For your post 17 above)
If you had child that refused to live by your standards, disrespected your home, stole from you, caused you damage etc. what would you do? Some parents take this treatment while others do not! Society at large has a remedy for these ones, that is, if one breaks society’s rules or laws, they arrest you and incarcerate you thereby cutting one off from their freedoms family etc. In time when society (the government) feels the price is paid for their crime, the person is let out! Now to this you cannot find fault with, as no reasonable person would (Unless you are a habitual criminal). Why is it that you feel that God deserves less! Did he not cut off his Son Satan and his other sons, identified as demons, reserving them for a day where they will be taken out of existence! The scriptures make plain that there is a coming calamity on this earth period! This means that there will be survivors and those who will not survive! You are angry at the JW for trying to please their Heavenly Father, serve his Son and survive, to the best of their human ability. And you disagree with them, so be it, this is your right, however, in the end, there are those, and several of them that were disfellowshipped and have been reinstated and feel differently than you!
You state, “They don't want to be around you because their highly controlled cult tells them that they shouldn't become "unevenly yoked with unbelievers." Therby making clear that this quoted rule is “cult” driven when in actuality, and to readers that would or may not know, that you are actually quoting part of a scripture found at “2 Corinthians 6:14” that clearly and unambiguously states this about a Christian not to become “unevenly yoked” that they are trying to comply with as a faith and way of life! Now, which is it, either the scripture states and means this or it does not? What do you believe it means? Again, if you are against this, then you logic dictates you are against the message or scripture on the Bible! [Crawly there is simple no other way to say this, if you find a way let me know so I can avoid using a tactic].
P |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 201
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 4:07 pm: |
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Jib:
What your JW family is doing to you is wrong, (JW or not) and we did discuss this and we exchanged emails about things being a two Way Street, and how making allowances can go both ways. You also mentioned something about it being a good thing for them to stay away from someone in your family who practiced some seriously threatening things (to the best of my memory so if I state this wrongly please accept my apology in advance). Also when it comes to things stated by one party, I find that ‘no matter how thin a slice of ham is cut, you still have two sides!!!’
Your scripture in Luke 15:23, goes to support that people should have fun and celebrate life, and have gatherings etc, (though this was in a story setting) as Jesus attended wedding feasts and in fact his first miracle was turning water into fine wine!!
I have not tried to prove my point, I provided reasons why the JW chooses to do or not do something.
And as far as pleasing God above all else is exactly what Jesus himself stated just prior to stating the golden rule of loving your neighbor as yourself, which is you MUST love your God with your whole mind, soul, heart and strength, meaning all of our vital forces; your whole self and we are not told in the Bible to do that to or for anyone else! And if you do that, then it is obvious you will truly love you family, wife etc. as love for family and wife has often proved to be not enough, as mothers abandon children, kill them, and families likewise, however if you Love God first and foremost you will never hurt your wife or family! There is good reason to Love God first and foremost above all else and others!
In the end this also allows for God as the maker of us to decide for us what is right and wrong, (something people disdain) within the confines of our God given freedom which in the end is a relative freedom while our Love for him must be absolute!
P |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 64
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.30.197
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 4:13 pm: |
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notice preatorian's
"swap the issue" tactic.
he is slyly trying to change the debate to whether or not normal shunning is a practice of the bible........ yet the issue is how the wicked jw leadership abuse that principal and disfellowship any who disagree with their wicked interpretations of the bible. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 203
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 4:49 pm: |
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Crawly:
I do try to reason with you, but you are unreasoning entity.
I have acknowledged the fact that they are people and as such are prone to do the things humans do. They are not infallible, and yes, there is no doubt that certain things have been abused, by some, like the elders etc. however, perhaps the point can be better made by asking you to point us to a church or religious entity that does not make mistakes or where some members do not abuse power, in effect, an infallible entity.
Has the belief or practice of disfellowshipping been abused; while I do not know of any cases on point, I will wholeheartedly tell you YES!!! However to think that this a common practice among “ALL” JW’s is to paintbrush them, and this is simply not so! Abusive elders have been discovered and dealt with accordingly and denying that is simple silly to do, because it happens openly and in public!
P |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 66
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.45
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 8:13 pm: |
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yup praetorian, the wicked "self-appointed" ..."jw gov body" are just a "fake god's organization".
jesus warned about wicked men like them in matt 24;24......... they invent a "fake coming of jesus", and then from then on they claim they are "appointed by god to rule".
they are wicked men who are imposters claiming to be the two prophets of rev 11.
red rev book pages 166 or so |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 19
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 8:55 pm: |
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"If you had child that refused to live by your standards, disrespected your home, stole from you, caused you damage etc. what would you do?"
I wouldn't take him out and stone him. The reasons given in the primitive culture the JWs referenced were for "drunkenness" and "gluttony." Yeah, a kid overeats and just kill him.
Interesting how you previously said my analogy of disfellowshipping to murdering someone was faulty, but then when I present the JWs official stance on it--how they justify disfellowshipping by the stoning principle in the OT, you change your story. And btw, you can look up JWs official website and do a search under "shunning." It's right there--the only article in fact.
"Some parents take this treatment while others do not! Society at large has a remedy for these ones, that is, if one breaks society’s rules or laws, they arrest you and incarcerate you thereby cutting one off from their freedoms family etc."
Never seen anyone in a free country incarcerated for overeating, or for questioning doctrine.
"Why is it that you feel that God deserves less!"
Why is it you feel a few men can make the rules on what deserves "cutting off" and what's okay?
"You are angry at the JW for trying to please their Heavenly Father, serve his Son and survive, to the best of their human ability."
I'm not angry at JWs for trying to "serve Jehovah." I think it's apalling that a few men claim to know the mind of god and to make arbitrary rules about what's acceptable and what's not. Some of those rules involve a life or death matter.
Why is it JWs claim they know the mind of God?
"And you disagree with them, so be it, this is your right, however, in the end, there are those, and several of them that were disfellowshipped and have been reinstated and feel differently than you!"
Thanks for the newsflash. And, again, if they want to use the primitive relious beliefs of an ancient tribe to justify disfellowshipping, their comparison is flawed. Once a "glutton" or "drunkard" was cut off, there's not going back. He's dead. It's the end of the line. To really apply the principle accurately, you'd figurately "stone" the person. They'd never be able to return.
"you are actually quoting part of a scripture found at “2 Corinthians 6:14” that clearly and unambiguously states this about a Christian not to become “unevenly yoked” that they are trying to comply with as a faith and way of life! Now, which is it, either the scripture states and means this or it does not? What do you believe it means?"
Looking at the context of the sripture it means don't become "yoked" with people who don't believe in the principles of Jesus. It doesn't mean shunning people who are supposed to be your "brothers" for made-up, non-biblical reasons: like they smoked. Like a married couple had oral sex. Like they stood for the national anthem. Like they chose to salute their flag of their country, showing their respect. Like their kid went trick or treating.
"Again, if you are against this, then you logic dictates you are against the message or scripture on the Bible!"
Nope. I'm simply against the bastardized interpretation of a few men in NYC that has resulted in the deaths of followers, the denial of society in general, and the division of families. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 239
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:47 pm: |
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junefever I will get to you next week when I get some time....while you consult with you buddy Craw. Do you both drink from the same cup?
P.S. If I miss the post because of others posting, be sure to point it out as I would not want you to "assume" anything, OK (Vally Girl inflection please). |
junefever
New member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 10:39 pm: |
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"junefever I will get to you next week when I get some time....while you consult with you buddy Craw. Do you both drink from the same cup?"
I don't need to consult with anyone, obviously unlike you. I compose my posts to respond to issues, using logic, common sense, and at times, using a little help from the internet. Those are not tools the JWs encourage using, so sorry if it seems foreign to you.
I'll wait with anticipation your explanation of how "parousia" actually is translated as "invisible presense" by the all-knowing JWs. Of course the JWs are the only ones amongst thousands of Greek/Biblical scholars who have come up with this interesting interpretation. So, I hope you'll have a little substance behind your argument. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 246
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 2:01 pm: |
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Junefever:
Wow, you think too much of yourself! I don’t need to consult with anyone to respond to you; and you know what you do, when you assume-yes? Quite the contrary, it appears from your unified posts, that consulting is going on from your side of the computer/fence!
You and your buddies are teaming up against me, and there is only so much time I wish to give to this endeavor.
I am on the internet fellow, as this post shows!
Look, regarding the parousia this is a fact, so forget the JW’s. I use a Bible, published by Hedrickson Publishers, (http://www.parable.com/parable/item.Interlinear-Bible-PR-Hebrew-Greek-KJV-Green-Jay-P.9781565639775.htm) and this as well as any Greek interlinear will clearly establish that word used in Matthew 24:3, is not “coming” but presence” regardless of what you believe this means, the word used is a fact! I am speaking to the fact and not the belief here, OK!!!! Now with this you can go to any Greek lexicon and see what this word means!
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.
P |
junefever
Junior Member
Username: junefever
Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 67.172.116.155
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 11:27 am: |
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"Quite the contrary, it appears from your unified posts, that consulting is going on from your side of the computer/fence!"
If the posts seem "unified" it's simply because more people than you realize are on to the hypocrisy and deceitful practices of the JWs. It's getting increasingly difficult for them to maintain any sort of credibility because more and more people are no longer fearful of exposing them.
"Look, regarding the parousia this is a fact, so forget the JW’s. I use a Bible, published by Hedrickson Publishers, (http://www.parable.com/parable/item.Interlinear-Bible-PR-Hebrew-Greek-KJV-Green-Jay-P.9781565639775.htm) and this as well as any Greek interlinear will clearly establish that word used in Matthew 24:3, is not “coming” but presence” regardless of what you believe this means, the word used is a fact! I am speaking to the fact and not the belief here, OK!!!! Now with this you can go to any Greek lexicon and see what this word means!"
Again, looking at the context of the scripture, and using common sense, the meaning is coming and remaining alongside.
And again, even assuming the term meant just "presense," where does the "invisible" come from?
Jesus said "many will come in my name" but will be false prophets. It makes not sense for him to say "many will be invisibly present in my name." Again, the JWs non-biblical spin makes the scriptures virtually non-sensical. |
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