Destrucive Mind Control

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post Why I love Brazil missionary_lady 1  1  12-22-05  7:35 pm   Start New Thread

Author Message   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:36 am:        Homestead Heritage teaches that mind control is scientifically impossible. While I agree that no drug or implant can control our actions as if by remote, I do believe however that groups like Homestead Heritage are a prime example that negative and destructive mind control does exist. Not that it makes people mindlessly do things, but instead convinces, and twists their thought patterns to the point where they no longer think for themselves, but they willingly obey every command from the authority, or should I say "programer". Every day we face some form of mind control, we watch the news, read magazines, see advertisements and make some of our decisions based on what we see and hear. Propaganda is a very powerful type of mind control, it had the power to make Nazi Germany a reality. There are many forms of mind control, but the reason cult (HH) mind control is so dangerous, is because they cut off every other source of information to the people than their own. No, TV, radio, magazines, newspapers, books, other churches, outside pastors, friends or relatives unless they are okayed by the leadership. When you only have one source of information coming from one man, whether positive of negative, it will inevitably be unbalanced. No one man, or group has the whole picture. The reason Homestead mind control can be so dangerous, is because they are getting a single unbalanced thread of information. When you trust a man to know and decide for you what is good or evil, he has the ability to decide good and evil, fact or fiction. Here is an example, I don't know how many times something positive would happen with my family outside of HH and my pastor would tell me not to be deceived by what it appeared that God was doing in their lives, because it wasn't God at all. He said it was, "The Energizing of satan". I asked him; "How do you know?". And he answered, "the Holy Spirit told me". Situations like that were very common. Once my pastor told me my brother had lied to me. I asked him how he knew and he said that God had spoken to him, and then It had been confirmed by a kid outside of Homestead. After I left HH, I told my brother about the situation and and what my pastor had told me. He laughed his head off, because not only had he not lied, the person that had confirmed what my pastor had "heard from God" was the one who had done the act that my brother had been accused of lying about. I was told several times that when MY pastor said he had heard from God, it was final. So my point is, is that no drug or implant is necessary, simply become ones conscience, or single source of input and guidance, and you can control their lives, actions and words.   foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.149 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 10:22 am:        OH, but Blair does believe brainwashing is possible..... ---Blair Adams, Wisdom's Children: Home Education and the Roots of Restored Biblical Culture “For Christians to deliberately send their children to such schools makes no more sense than to send them to Buddhist monasteries or Shiite Muslim academies or more to point out, to Nazi schools! Christian children did not become 'witnesses' when they donned the brown shirt and joined the Hitler movement and attended Nazi schools: the Nazis brain-washed and converted them into brutal instruments of the state." And Programming … Who owns the children?: Compulsory education and the dilemma of ultimate authority (Education as religious war) by Blair Adams To proclaim a people free to choose their own government but then to insist that the government determine, through a government-controlled compulsory educational system, the very attitudes and values by which the people will choose becomes the most insidious and pernicious form of tyranny: it gives the people the illusion of freedom while all along controlling them through a form of governmental programming. And structures of our culture determine our thinking. Garden of God by Blair Adams, with Joel Stein and Howard Wheeler: Truth forum copy right Bair Adams 1989 1988 pg 22, Even secular authors, such as Ernest Becker, recognize that “culture means that which is supernatural.” Culture consists of, in sociologist Peter Berger’s terms, the “plausibility structures” that determine in large part how people think and believe. The way people eat, dress, work, play, travel, talk, form families, seek entertainment, build houses, use furniture, sing songs, read books, drive cars, create works of art and so on-these all constitute their culture. That people are shaped and molded by spiritual presuppositions and by living according to the Patterns and Orders in the HH culture… Garden of God by Blair Adams, with Joel Stein and Howard Wheeler: Truth forum copy right Bair Adams 1989 1988 Pg.29 “In general, a community is more than a mere assemblage of isolated individuals who all share something in common. Beyond this, it is a group of individuals who are together shaped and molded into a unified, corporate image, individuals basing themselves on common spiritual presuppositions, individuals living according to particular patterns, ordered in a particular way, participating together in a common way of life and spiritual experience. PG 29 continued As we have shown in “Salvation is of the Jews,” man has an inherent need for consistency in his thought and action. He will generally attempt to conform his thoughts and beliefs to his actions, and the latter are largely directed by the culture of which the individual forms apart. To take our previous example, if people each day greet one another with a peal of praise to Hitler on their lips, they will begin to actually exalt him in their thoughts as well…. The whole Nazi culture was constructed to pressure the individual into such actions of Hitler worship for precisely this reason. ***AND who ever controls the communication, information, actions etc. shapes and mold the thought patterns. Again: Who owns the children?: Compulsory education and the dilemma of ultimate authority (Education as religious war) by Blair Adams To proclaim a people free to choose their own government but then to insist that the government determine, through a government-controlled compulsory educational system, the very attitudes and values by which the people will choose becomes the most insidious and pernicious form of tyranny: it gives the people the illusion of freedom while all along controlling them through a form of governmental programming. a government-controlled compulsory educational system=controled information Garden of God by Blair Adams, with Joel Stein and Howard Wheeler: Truth forum copy right Bair Adams 1989 1988 Pg 30 … “Whoever controls communication, whoever controls information, molds and shapes the corporate image of that society and therewith in large part the image of individuals as well. Pg.33 … to one degree or another we make ourselves vulnerable to them; we open ourselves up to them and allow them to mold and shape us, to form our inner image. To some degree, we lower our defenses before them and declare our willingness to mix our lives together with theirs. Pg 37 This is so because by entering into covenant with someone we give them some degree of a regulating function of our lives: we agree to accept or reject the information that this person, being or institution accepts or rejects… The covenant therefore determines, as we shall see, who will function as the true sovereign of a community and, because the sovereign is the one who provides the ultimate information to the community, who thereby determines the image… Pg39 What makes someone or some group the supreme ruler, exercising sovereignty within a given society and serving the source of all information that flows through the covenant that holds the community together? The basis of all sovereignty, that is, the basis of all final and ultimate authority, depends upon origins: The ultimate sovereign over a thing is the one who has created that thing, the one who is the original source of information to those who compose that society. The ultimate authority is the author. So you see, he does believe in thought control, which controls choices. And he also believes the one who controls the information control the thoughts, as well as the one who determines the basis of culture controls all these things. This is not a matter of ignorant leaders who know nothing about cult dynamics that just happened to of innocently happened. This is a well informed and thought out methodical approach to leadership and ultimate authority and influence over the lives of those under them. The only think left to know, is their intentions. If their intent is to help the people follow God, is that good enough of a reason to employ these physiological cult dynamics of thought control? What if they delude themselves and this power corrupts them? Is it a chance people should be willing to take for themselves and their children? Would God really want a father to abdicate this kind control to other men?   foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.149 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 11:05 am:        Many proponents of freedom of mind and individuality, like those who support home schooling, use Blair’s writing in Wisdom’s Children and Who Owns the Children to support their claims of undue influence by the “cult of the State” on the lives of the citizens. They say that by controlling the information taught to children, the news and media, and behavior through laws that limit our individual freedoms, the State has cult dynamics in place that conform our thoughts and therefore our choices to those chosen by the State. Like TH said, it is common knowledge that the power of propaganda and information control has been used to control people by influencing their thoughts for generations. What Blair and others object to in their writings is the compulsion used to subject people to the State’s undue influences, especially the compulsory education system. In my reading Blair Adams writings, (particularly Wisdom’s Children, Who Owns the Children, and Garden of God, I get the idea that everybody is a part of a cult-ure, and the problem is that the culture most of us live in is the cult-ure chosen by the State. In my opinion he starts out in agreement with many of the other freedom writers, but then he goes many steps further and treads on what I consider freedom opposing ground. He seems to make a point that we can’t consciously choose our belief system because of undue influence of our culture. Pretty much it's the idea of the cult in cult-ure, and he compares two categories: Gods culture and man’s/states culture, the major differences being sovereignty and compulsion/coercion. In my opinion he starts what physiologists called black and white thinking where we have to put everything into one of only two categories. His categories are God’s culture and the State’s/anti-God’s culture. There is in my opion the presupposition that you as an individual will be unduly influenced beyond your control by your culture so your decisions are pre determined for you. You must choose between these two culture categories so you are influenced by the culture of your choice. In my opinion the outward beauty of this “Garden of God” created by his rules and patterns shown to outsiders creates a longing and a willingness to believe that it all is a work of God’s spirit. The next step is one of FAITH; we are to believe that God has given him, Blair Adams, as an apostle, the authority, patterns, and governmental order for restore Biblical culture. By faith you have to accept that God is the sovereign author of the laws, patterns, and “plausibility structures” laid out in Blair’s volumes of writings. (The insertion of scripture references helps this faith evolve until you believe that Blair’s Word is God’s Word.) Constitution of Koinonia Membership (Koinonia change its name to Homestead Heritage) page 40 “You acknowledge by signing this Constitution that you hold to the Holy Bible as interpreted by the Spirit moving through the appropriate channels of leadership as your ‘curriculum,’ your course of faith, supplemented and more precisely defined and expounded by the interpretation given by the Spirit and recorded in Salvation Is of the Jews; Hallelu Yah; The Garden of God; Covenant Love; The Temple; The Bedrock; The laws of Consistency; The Foundations of the Temple Series, Volumes 1, 2 and 3; The Order of Perfection; The Service of the Temple; The Narrow Gate; Koinonia Covenant Confession; Who Owns the Children?; Wisdom’s Children; Building Christian Character; Beyond Violence; Beyond Pacifism; Culture as Spiritual War Series; Knowledge as Spiritual War Series; Justice Is Fallen; the Koinonia Curriculum and others that might be added in the future through the appropriate channels of leadership per the above, including various specific position and conviction papers, such as those on home birth and home education.” Let’s talk about compulsion. If you disagree with state laws you are compelled to follow State laws by fines, imprisonment, and if necessary physical force, maybe be resulting in your death. This point is clearly made in Blair’s writings. But if you don’t agree with HH’s/God’s laws you can just leave. It sounds so simple. “Hey, let’s find out more about HH, if we find out we disagree we can just leave.” That is so far from the truth. Let’s back up. What about that undue influence? Could there be things in the HH cult-ure itself that will eventually predetermine that choice for you? Back to the State Culture here in the United States. Although we don’t have the freedom to not educate our children, private schools have always been legal and thanks to our other freedoms we have been able to advance the freedom to home school. It is now legal to home school in all 50 States and we are moving forward. And again; private school has always been a right. See, in the State, we do have some right to disagree and change things. It is not easy, but it is possible. There is still freedom of information and speech. We have the right to assemble ourselves and work together for change. There is only one sovereign in Homestead, whether that sovereign is God or Blair is a matter of faith. You can’t change God, and you aren’t likely to change Blair. You can submit your disagreeable thoughts, but cost may be too great, and in the end Blair will have the overriding say so. Then there is the matter of information control, it is extremely greater in Homestead than in the State arena. Even if I attended public school, I can still go home and choose to be influenced by most other things with out fear of State reprisal. Therefore I have far less freedom of mind and choice in HH where even reading a newspaper can get you in trouble. The biggest difference… It would be far easier for me to leave the State if I didn’t agree with the State laws, and even leave the country, then it was for me and many others to leave Homestead Heritage. The belief system formed by the cult-ure in HH, (and other groups with the same dynamics,) lead to a more powerful coercion than physical coercion. Leaving becomes a matter of supposed spiritual rebellion toward “God,” or even eternal spiritual death, which is far weightier than physical death. The covenant vows to the greater death you have to take become a spiritual gun held to your head, and leaving becomes spiritual/eternal suicide. It takes a lot to over come this spiritual threat. Add to that the fact that you will be leaving everything your children know and many people you love and be facing culture shock and most likely great financial loss and possibly the loss of your home. Is this type of coercion real? If you had been there you know it is. “On rare occasions, a court refers sweepingly to the consideration of psychological coercion in many aspects of American jurisprudence. So, for example, Supreme Court Justice Brennan (joined by Justice Marshall) wrote that “it would seem that certain psychological, economic, and social means of coercion can be just as effective as physical or legal means, particularly where the victims are especially vulnerable.... United States v. Kozminski, 487 U.S. 931, 953, 955-56 (1988) (concurring opinion)” We must remember that we were given two choices of culture in the comparisons. Could we possibly have other choices? Does God’s belief system exist outside of the “restored Biblical culture” as dictated by “GOD” through Blair Adams? Do you, if provided the freedom of mind and heart have the God given capability to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as savior and so with “Christ in you” are able to read His word and follow His Spirit and be under HIS DIRECT influence in your life? Yes! It is an influence so great and powerful you can through Christ overcome the influences in the culture of the community He leads you to live in and shine His light in!!!! We can be in this world and not a part of it. We can carefully choose spiritual leaders by the biblical guidelines and the Holy Spirit who will have a Godly influence on our lives and still remain open to the leading of the Holy Spirit if we are to move on. Our covenant is with God and His corporate universal body. There is one Body and we are united by the blood of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, it creates a unity beyond man’s rules and wordy vows. We are over comers through Christ Jesus. We shall love the Lord our God with all our strength, hearts, minds, and soul and our neighbors as ourselves through His grace and the power of His might. Our minds belong to Him alone.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 163 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.26.148 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 11:39 am:        "Does God’s belief system exist outside of the “restored Biblical culture” as dictated by “GOD” through Blair Adams? " I say yes and that Blair Adams does not represent in any form what oneness churches believe and teach. No oneness church, churches,or organizations that I have knowledge of would say the things Blair Adams does...and believe , I know a lot of "hardliners"...but no one that claims to be Jesus in the flesh...with temple patterns and new revelations for us to live by every few days or so... I recieved several e mails because of using the word revelations...Let me explain their thinking of revelation is like the JW...it is the light that shines brighter and brighter on the path of the just. Most cults use that scripture to enforce their every whelm...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 164 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.26.148 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:04 pm:        And I say he does not represent what trinity churches believe.He represnets what Blair wants the Bible to say but some of us have enough sense to know that however we may not see eye to eye we do know BA is not God's earthly representive.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 165 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.132.215 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 5:14 pm:        I have often heard it said that whoever controls the information controls the person that recieves it. I have watched that be so true. If a person or group are prohibited to read books, magazines, watch films, newspapers and even read other christian books no wonder their world is so small. No wonder they are so easy to control atleast the "obedient" ones are easy to control. I read and am blessed by many books...I have enough conviction to read books by authors that do not believe everything I believe...but there are so many things we can be blessed by. The word of God teaches us to be mature christians. I loved reading Fearfully and wonderfully made...I was blessed to read "Thank God for Pain". It does not make me less a christian to read a newspaper...I would hate to have my world shaped and my only information through the approval of one man and his books...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 166 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.132.215 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 5:16 pm:        I have often heard it said that whoever controls the information controls the person that recieves it. I have watched that be so true. If a person or group are prohibited to read books, magazines, watch films, newspapers and even read other christian books no wonder their world is so small. No wonder they are so easy to control atleast the "obedient" ones are easy to control. I read and am blessed by many books...I have enough conviction to read books by authors that do not believe everything I believe...but there are so many things we can be blessed by. The word of God teaches us to be mature christians. I loved reading Fearfully and wonderfully made...I was blessed to read "Thank God for Pain". It does not make me less a christian to read a newspaper...I would hate to have my world shaped and my only information through the approval of one man and his books...   foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.148 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 9:49 pm:        test   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 172 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.52.222 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 9:47 am:        Too bad God cannot reveal anything to anyone else but HH...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 181 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.21.39 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 5:07 pm:        This fact is silly that HH thinks they are the only ones that has God's direct message...Maybe they haven't told you that yet... I don't think you can grasp the fact why I am on this board. LOL Do you think I would give 40 years of my life on the mission field...facing dangerous bandits, working and many times sleeping at a leper colony, winning witchdoctors to Jesus, baptizing people in alligator infested streams to waste my time "fussing" here about HH. My brother you are wrong. I am here to defend thr REAL Jesus Name folks and HH is no part of what we believe. In fact the last service I was in BA laughed at Pentecostal folks...that made my husband so upset...He comes from generations of Pentecostal families some of whom GAVE their lives crossing the snow infested mountains of Chile. I raised 5 children that their mother was murdered in Paraguay from our church because of her stand againt paganism. Two of her sons today are pastors and one is the music director here. Do you think I am some old lady that has nothing to do but write on factnet? Old lady is right but I have hundreds of things to do. I still work 10 to 15 hours a day in the work of the Lord... I am no disgruntled mixed up person...Why don't you call Brother Wilson it seems to me you mentioned the ALJC ask him who Sister Janice Alvear is. I am no child or childish. I know danger when I see it. Why don"t you call Jonathan Alvear the chairman of ACI ask who I am... Why don't you call UPC headquarters ask who are the Alvears? You know those that come over here recieve permission from UPC stateside to preach or visit us. I am no novice to Jesus Name message. If you think BA and HH message is correct why don't you join them? Of course you could not preach for anyone since they do not believe in the work of an evangelist like we do...they have enough x preachers and x pastors, x missionaries sitting on their pews there being fed the same thing Sunday after Sunday. SEE IF THEY WILL GO KNOWCKING WITH YOU? OF COURSE THEY WILL NOT THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT OR SO THEY TOLD ME. See if they will let you hold them a revival. They will not for they do not believe you have the full revelation that they have. They are busy typing up proof papers at the center to supply us weaker folks with God's message at some given point. Don't say that is not true because THEY told me they were storing up "meat" for the endtime when all would run to them for spiritual food...My friend I warn you and everyone on this board that HH does not represent JESUS NAME churches... I can just see the UPC running to them asking for meat...that is what is silly... I can just see Phil White, Larry Booker, Joel Holmes, Steve Pixler, Stoneking, Jerry Cox, John Hair,Pastor John Padgett, Timothy Spell,Bro Marty Ballestero Pastor Gary Howard Bro. M. Couch, Bro. B. Campbell and hundreds of other great men of God running there asking for spiritual food. Just who do you think they are Elijah, John the Baptist or perhaps like they think that they Jesus in the Flesh? I am not quite as silly as you think. I am a missionary of 40 years does that sound silly?   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 182 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.21.39 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 6:00 pm:        I am not saying anyone would or would not appove of anything I am saying or not saying.I am just mentioning some of the men of God I know and let you know I am no fly by night, I am a well rooted christian. I am sorry you seem to misunderstand my motives. I am only saying I come from a group of people that are Oneness Apostolic and I know HH does not stand for what these men stand for. You seem to have a problem understanding that these men of God I mentioned was not to involve them in my talk here but to say I cannot imagine them or hundreds more running to HH to get food from God...I said that is what HH said they were preparing for...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 183 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.21.39 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 6:10 pm:        I have no intention of discussing oneness here. These people know what oneness believes and they consider both of us a cult. I am sorry they do not understand oneness but that is not my reason for being here. I am only here as I have stated over and over again to deny the fact that HH represents the oneness doctrine as we understand it. Oneness doctrine as you know happens to be more than believing Jesus was God manifest in the flesh... I have no intentions of offending you are stooping to low tatics. I am sorry if that is the way you think I did. That was not my intention. MANY pastors told me what met the eye at homestead was not really what it was...I stayed long enough to see it that was true...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 185 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.21.39 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 6:25 pm:        I am sorry I have offended you that is not my reason for being here as stated. I am here because a group of pastors advised me to write concerning HH..... I really am sorry I ever went to HH. I am sorry I got involved here. I am not out to make enemies. I only mentioned names to try to explain I do know what I am talking about. I have trunks of HH papers and books. I have let many pastors read some of the things I have. Not to destroy HH but to see if perchance we could be wrong. My dear brother I am willing to wash you feet if you are offended at me. I have only told the truth on this board. I know the agony we went through because of their tatics... You have done nothing to harm me or the work here. They asked me to kill my baby...I came here as a young girl and now am an old woman why would I want to kill my work, my baby that I have given my life for? I remember when the Name of Jesus was almost unknown here...I rejoice that in hundreds of villages stand churches and native pastors that love Jesus. Men that were once witchdoctors are now pastors of churches... I am to old and do not have another life to give but if I did I would give it again here in Brazil. Once again I am sorry for offending you. I think I am still hurting inside for what HH did and the way they treated us and maybe I have taken it out on you...Please forgive me.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 193 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.21.39 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 8:17 pm:        "Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord." This supernatural announcement, delivered by the angel of the Lord, was accompanied by the praise of the multitude of heavenly host, saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." Those who in faith had long looked for His coming expressed great joy when the news was divulged that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem. His coming was most pertinent to the liberation of the oppressed, the elevation of the humble, comfort for the downtrodden and brokenhearted, illumination for the ones in darkness and full salvation for all those who obey. The great liberator who would free mankind from all enemies had come. The long wait was over. A new era had dawned! And because of this Merry Christmas to all.   foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.141 Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 12:09 pm:        I have to admit that HH and ART are the only oneness people I have had any experience with and I had wondered what they might all have in common. I am glad you are setting people like me straight. Missionary Lady your faith and boldness in Jesus has really blessed me. I am glad that you are here with us. I do hope to get to meet you someday, if not here, then I know I will when we get home. I for one do not consider oneness a cult. I don't know what all is meant by "Apostolic faith" but I do know that all my faith rests in my savior and the Messiah, Jesus! I believe there is only one God. As for the trinity/oneness debate, I don't take sides. I haven't chosen a theological box to put God in. I want to wish you, Missionary Lady, the most blessed Christmas you have had yet. May God continue to bless all your work here, in Brazil, and everywhere you go. ForeverHis formerhh@yahoo.com   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 195 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.59.148 Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 6:27 pm:        Thank you forever His for such kind words. The next posts have nothing to do with factnet or HH but I have copied them from my booklet on missions. "Lepers" It seems to me that I have always known there were lepers in Brazil. One of my first experiences was when I was yet a young girl was seeing a man healed of leprosy as a result of prayer in the powerful Name of Jesus. Many years ago I had been through a leper colony but we were quite unprepared for the scene we saw that day. At the gate of the colony stood two guards. They looked so solemn and forlorn. As we stopped the car, the guard looked at us and said: "Who are you all visiting today?" I shuddered as I heard myself say, "Everyone." He stared at me for a moment, and then with a bewildered expression he slowly opened the gate and motioned us in. Where would we begin? What would we say? Suddenly my former boldness left me. Driving up and down the streets we found that we were lost within a world of the earth's outcasts. Finally, we got the courage to stop in front of a row of buildings, and almost silently we slipped in the back door of what we would find out was one of the many wards for helpless victims of leprosy. The smell of blood and urine caused us to feel faint as we walked down the hall. We were quite unprepared for what happened next. Walking into room after room we told them the story of Jesus, though we dared not get very close to them. What we didn't want to admit was that we were afraid. It was not the finger-less hands, missing limbs, bloody stubs, bandages that had long needed to be changed that caught my attention. After all, this was South America. I was used to gruesome sights. It was their eyes, with their look of hopelessness and despair. Never before had I seen so many eyes expressing what the tongue did not and could not say. We visited in room after room, until we felt nauseated and dizzy. We walked outside for some fresh air. Standing up against the building was a leper, so I walked over to him, to repeat the story Jesus we had told the others. "Will you ever be back, missionary?" He asked. "Yes, of course." Was my reply without daring to look at Sister Sonia and Sister Olga who were with me. "We here that often, but most people never return." He said, shaking his head as if knowing we would never be back. We slowly walked to the car. Even though no one was struck down as Saul of old, and no visions had been seen, and no miracles had happened that day, but we were a changed group. We could never be the same. We had walked into their lives, and they had walked into our hearts. There was not time to visit everyone, but I wanted to visit the cemetery. Something about cemeteries moves me. There were hundreds of graves where only lepers were buried. Born-Died, Born-Died. Each marker read. The cross, so typical of pagan worship, was surrounded by wax from candles that had been burned to try to help the dead find their way into the beyond. The crude little Catholic chapel was filled with "gods" and "saints". For a passing moment it made me angry. The grossness of idolatry and spiritism, rituals that take and never give. My heart burned within me. I walked over to a fresh dug grave. It seemed I could hear a voice screaming at me from eternity, "For me you came too late". I wept. We drove past a large Catholic Church and the Spiritist center. Both seemed to speak their own silent language. "These people belong to us, leave them alone." After all, what did we have to offer these poor sick outcasts? The Catholics and Spiritist's boast of great hospitals, charities, etc. We had barely had enough to make the trip to the colony. As I meditated, yes, they could offer food, clothing, doctor, and even money, but we could bring them Christ, the atoner of sins. Driving home that day little was said. Each one sat in our own world of thoughts. It seemed in no time we were home. "Well, what have you decide, will you all go with me each week?" (I dared not even mention the name of the place) "Missionary, if you will never ask us to eat anything in that place, we will go." I smiled, and we slowly got out of the car to go to our homes. I f we had known that in the months to come, we would be eating, drinking, and sometimes sleeping in their home, we would have been shocked past reality, but mercifully we were spared that knowledge for a time. We hurried to take showers and wash our hair. Even fresh clothes, a shower and clean hair did not make us feel clean. Sleep and hunger did not come to us that night. "Surely you all will never go back there." The church people said to us, after they had listened in horror to the things we related to them the next night at church. "Oh, we promised to return," was our reply. Our invitation to others to go with us was only met with cold icy stares as heads shook in a definite no. There were no volunteers to go with us to the world of the "living dead." Thursday found us there once again, visiting the wards. "They are back,” the lepers whispered among themselves. Yes, we were back and in our hearts burned a flame of love that would soon grow so big that nothing would keep us from visiting our new found friends. Soon their frightened stares turned into warm smiles and we discovered that these hungry-hearted, lonely human beings were responsive and grateful to us. Slowly all our fears vanished and love took control. Societies "rejects" are accepted into the kingdom of God. God works in unexpected ways. It is not for us to decide who can be and who cannot be save. It is He who changes people's lives, and by it being His doings, He often catches us by surprise.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 196 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.59.148 Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 6:29 pm:        I Sat Where They Sat The room that we walked into was filled with lepers. "Come in Missionary," they said. "We have prepared for you a cake and coffee." Up to this point, we had never eaten in their homes. Not even as much as a cup of water. As the leper reached for the piece of cake, I saw blood on his fingers. As he picked up the piece of cake to give to me, I silently whispered: "Oh Lord, you’ve got to help me." As I took the cake from his hand the lepers stood watching. It was the "love test." Would I eat their cake and drink their drink? They were watching for my reaction. Oh the sacredness of that moment. Holding the piece of cake in my hand as I looked at them, they faded from view, and it was no longer a little group of bleeding lepers, but it was Jesus handing me the cake! Jesus was standing where they had been. A tear trickled down my cheek as Jesus said to me: "I baked this cake for you, I wanted to see if you would eat a cake I baked." Suddenly my mind went to when Jesus ate at the house of Simon the leper. Yes, I would eat their cake. They were precious souls that Jesus had died to redeem. In their deep poverty, they had reached out in love to me. There are thousands of lepers in Brazil, and leprosy is on the increase. Brazil is second in the world population of lepers, behind only India. Their foremost need is Christ. Only He can fill their world with joy unspeakable. The people of the heathen world are not just cold statistics. They are real living, breathing, ordinary people like you and me. There are many others just as the ones mentioned in this book, still waiting for their turn to hear the Gospel.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 198 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.59.148 Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 6:41 pm:        Nelza I have never looked into sadder eyes than those bearing the hurt of being rejected by society. Being looked upon as an object of horror, instead of a human being takes it toll. Nelza had been bedfast for over two years. Although she was a leper, the reason for her being bedfast was not leprosy. She had some type of spinal disease also. We first met Nelza at the leper hospital. Her husband hated Christians, and let us know in no uncertain terms. The people in the colony warned us to stay away, he has been know to hit Christians and throw them out of his house by force. He cursed believers to their face. He was a devout Catholic, having much faith in the idol god, that hung on their walls and sat on their tables. Against all warnings, we decided to visit Nelza at her home as soon as she was discharged from the hospital. At first, he was not friendly at all, and stood outside while we quickly visited. Soon he was listening outside the window, and one day an unseen force, unknown to him, compelled him to come in. In silence, he listened. Nelza was not getting better, in fact, she was worse, so we offered to go talk to a doctor in a distant city. The day arrived when we had the OK to intern her in the other hospital. Mr. John (her husband) said to me: "Missionary, why is it you want to help us? We are lepers, and have nothing to offer you." The heart that everyone had judged to be so hard and cold began to melt. It was at the second hospital that Nelza repented of her sins. What a joy in heaven when one sinner repents! One day Mr. John told me that he wanted to go see Nelza, but he was unable to drive. (Leprosy had sorely affected his feet) "We will take you," I replied. The once hard-hearted John was like a small child with his first toy. He talked all the way. When we stopped for gas, he went into the little store and bought us freshly baked bread. It was not wrapped, but we ate it with "gusto." After several months Nelza was back home, and John continued listening to the Gospel. One day he said to me, "Missionary, the whole time you have been coming here, you have never told me to take down my gods and saints." "Your gods don't bother me." I replied. (After all the Bible teaches that they have no power) He seemed relieved and listened with great intent every Thursday. The day came when we walked in his house and all the gods and saints were gone. We said nothing, but continued talking about our Jesus like we did each time. As we were getting ready to leave, Mr. John said: "Missionary, have you notice anything different in my house today?" I smiled and pointed to the empty wall. "Missionary," he said "I have decided your God is stronger than my gods, so I took all my gods down and threw them away.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 199 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.59.148 Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 6:44 pm:        ...and one last story for the night...this one not about Lepers but about a homegoing... Sister Maria “He fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skillfulness of His hands.” Psalms 78:72 I stood in the cold of the morning looking at the lifeless face of one my precious Bible students. She was a victim of yellow fever. She was only twenty-eight years old, and she left behind her husband and five small children. The casket looked so empty, it was too early to get some flowers to put around the body, which is the custom here. The smallest of the children were tip-toeing to get a glimpse of their mother. Where did she go? Why didn’t she answer their cries as she had always done before? Her husband walked over to me and said: “What will I do, Missionary? How can I explain to them what has happened?” Putting my arm around the oldest girl I said: “Do you remember that every Tuesday night your mother went with me to Bible School and she told you to help take care of the babies because she was going to learn more about the way to heaven? Jesus chose not only for her to learn the way to heaven, but took her there, and there she will be waiting for you.” She tightened her grip on my hand and said: “Missionary, will you teach me the way to heaven, too?” Such a short life young Sister Maria lived, yet she was one that was fully dedicated to God. And even though we may not understand the reason some things happen, we know that God has every life in His hands, and that His purpose is perfect. What a joy and privilege it is to be able to help point souls to the lovely Master.   foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.61 Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 9:26 am:        Thank you! I am moved beyond words at the greatness and compassion of the Lord and His servants. Surely God is good. ForeverHis   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 469 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.152.193.108 Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 6:47 pm:        I do have somewhere their book on mind control...yeah..they would have their people believe it is impossible...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 564 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 8:05 pm:        It is.   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 473 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.25.187 Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 12:57 am:        we know by reading your posts... funny you cannot even live what they preach...   old_watchman Junior Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:43 am:        Young Mr. O, would you comment in some detail on Foreverhis posts above? She has quoted extensively from HH literature. We will all follow along in our copies of HH lit as you set the record straight. (Boy, are my ears hot! Have you been saying nice things about me again?)   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 568 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 2:48 pm:        Old(er) Mr. A, Would you mind telling me why you want me to do this? Judging from your track record it would seem that you are baiting me... HH extended an offer of arranging a meeting with you, which you turned down, so it puzzles me why you suddenly want to discuss these issues with me, an "outsider".... Why don't you set your record straight first, then, maybe, we can have a dialog. DOwen.   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 487 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.17.214 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 4:03 pm:        Dowen you say you are not a member...BUT youdo have all the answers...so be kind enough to explain HH' s doctrine...Or is it you are afraid to? What would it matter if you are being baited if you stand for truth? Jesus was baited and He came out just fine...I would not like to stand up for something I cannot defend.... Of course you are not even on level one with them...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 569 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 4:19 pm:        I never said I had all the answers, in fact I have stated the opposite, many times...please quit putting words in my mouth, it's a very elementary ploy. (Not to mention it shows the weakness of your position, you have to manufacture accusations...tsk tsk, getting warm over there?) The rest of your post is insolence and mockery, I had expected more from a well known and respected leader in the Christian community. At one point I had considered visiting the Oneness Pentecostal Denomination. But after reading your childish displays here on FN, I will pass. It seems the Pentecostal Church is just as full of fluff and hypocrisy as the rest of 'em. I wonder how many tears your post's have caused Jesus to shed? DOwen. (Message edited by dowen on May 22, 2006)   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 488 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.70.81 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 6:52 pm:        No tears my friend...courage is a rare gift!   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 489 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.70.81 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 6:57 pm:        If I remember right HH is oneness...yes people are just people anywhere in the world... If you want to serve God you serve Him... Whatever you say or anyone else says does not hinder me from serving God... Why don't you take HH's own advice...go home and pray through...............   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 571 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:22 pm:        Earlier this evening I said; "At one point I had considered visiting the Oneness Pentecostal Denomination. But after reading your childish displays here on FN, I will pass. It seems the Pentecostal Church is just as full of fluff and hypocrisy as the rest of 'em." After receiving a phone call from a dear Brother I would like to re-write, or re-phrase, that paragraph. Since FACTnet has barred all users from editing posts older than 30 minutes, I must try to straighten things out here. I labeled the Pentecostal Church as being full of hypocrisy and fluff, that was not accurate, and I humbly apologize. There is, at times, hypocrisy and fluff in every Church and I should not have singled out and written off that particular group of believers. Just as I am not here to tarnish the achievments of HH, I am not here to tarnish the achievments of Mrs. Alvear. Mrs. Alvear's posts shock, dismay and sadden me, but I spoke rashly in writing her off. For that, I apologize. Just as FACTNet is not the place for ex-members of HH to demonize HH, it is not the place for me to rebuke or belittle Mrs. Alvear. Again, I apologize. Sincerely, Daniel Owen. (Message edited by dowen on May 22, 2006)   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 490 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.83.166 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:00 pm:        Dowen: I want you to understand I do not even know you I am not here to hurt you either. I guess I had so much faith in HH and was let down it sometimes is hard for me to seperate you from them. Never in all my life have I ever felt so betrayed and hurt over something as I was there...But that is not your fault and because I am always pressed for time some of my answers have been not always kind. I too apologize and will try to be more civil to you. I was very hurt because I felt used at HH and many other things...I have said over and over I wish I had never got mixed up with them. But that too is not your fault. To change the subject tonight we had a youth gathering at our home and it was so sweet. The young people know I love anything Jewish and they had given me a few weeks ago a large 6 foot tall, Menorah they made for me to put in our church. So I surprized them tonight, a friend of mine has a jewish congregation and he had sent me a DVd with some Hebrews songs and a few jewish worship dances...they just wept and wept in the presence of the Lord as they watched it. It is after 2 in the morning here...time that some of us go to the breaddstore to bake bread....   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 491 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.83.166 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:01 pm:        Dowen: I want you to understand I do not even know you I am not here to hurt you either. I guess I had so much faith in HH and was let down it sometimes is hard for me to seperate you from them. Never in all my life have I ever felt so betrayed and hurt over something as I was there...But that is not your fault and because I am always pressed for time some of my answers have been not always kind. I too apologize and will try to be more civil to you. I was very hurt because I felt used at HH and many other things...I have said over and over I wish I had never got mixed up with them. But that too is not your fault. To change the subject tonight we had a youth gathering at our home and it was so sweet. The young people know I love anything Jewish and they had given me a few weeks ago a large 6 foot tall, Menorah they made for me to put in our church. So I surprized them tonight, a friend of mine has a jewish congregation and he had sent me a DVd with some Hebrews songs and a few jewish worship dances...they just wept and wept in the presence of the Lord as they watched it. It is after 2 in the morning here...time that some of us go to the breadstore to bake bread....   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 492 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.83.166 Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:08 pm:        it says posted 11:01 well must be 3 hours difference in time...   praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 175 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 5:33 am:        Hi Folks, Two small points. (Generally, a more thoughtful thread, appreciated). Many times when Jesus was being baited, he gave short, sharp, powerful answers. Jesus didn't necessarily give answers in the form that the crafty accusers wanted or expected. Jesus knew their hearts. Interestingly, Daniel's question to Phillip was unanswered. Why refuse to even meet and discuss person-to-person and heart-to-heart, and then feign an interest here, from Daniel, for political purposes ? ... Short answer ... hypocrisy. And I'm not sure it is correct to say that the HH view (or mine, for that matter) is that 'brainwashing' is impossible (e.g. in the well-known Korean prison camp indoctrinations, or even a Jim Jones type cult, or even in some new age occultism). Simply that the supposedly Christian anti-cult movement has incorporated a wide encompassing view of brainwashing that they brought over from secular unbelievers, a view that can be used to accuse any dedicated Christian fellowship of brainwashing. The paradigms are faulty, the usage is biased, the precepts are unbiblical, the application is skewered. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 497 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.233 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 6:39 am:        sure know a lot of big words...   praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 179 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 10:23 am:        Substance is far more important than form. Hopefully every point made and issue raised is clear. Shalom, Praxaluh   happyishe New member Username: happyishe Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 68.93.135.44 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 10:44 am:        i think its safe to say that no one here objected to HH's ends but to its means for achieving those ends. they wanted to go several steps further (I guess you can say, complete the Reformation) integrating the land into its original place in God's reality. the danger is that you can get to the ends much faster if you "make" people live holy than if you ask, invite, plead with, suffer with, people to live holy. the great danger is that you forget that we are all sinners and will be sinners until we are finally changed into his likeness. One tends to think the devil is a pushover who we left way behind in our holy walk, though he does annoy us at times.   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 502 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.54.50 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:47 pm:        Well I don't think I am going to discuss the same thing over and over. I will continue to post but to go over and over the same material and Prax who knows nothing but hearsay will not stand the witness test...I was there and saw it with my on eyes...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 572 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:52 pm:        Old W, I'm just checking in to see if you are going to answer my question... In case you forgot, here is what I posted earlier; Would you mind telling me why you want me to do this? Judging from your track record it would seem that you are baiting me... HH extended an offer of arranging a meeting with you, which you turned down, so it puzzles me why you suddenly want to discuss these issues with me, an "outsider".... Why don't you set your record straight first, then, maybe, we can have a dialog.}   old_watchman Junior Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:46 pm:        I aopogize for my tardiness in answering you, Daniel. I had started working on a response earlier and had gotten some ways into it when I accidentally dumped the whole thing. I had to take a frustration break. I went back to some e-mails you and I had last June when I first asked to meet with you and your dad. I stated that I would meet with Howard at a separate time. I received a response from your dad as representative for the leadership of HH. He gave two qualifications for a meeting, "You owe us, then, some kind of statement, even an apology, that would indicate an openness to at least consider our position, plus an admission that up until now you have not honestly done so. Second, since it is the leadership of our church and its corporate expression that you have primarily accused, then in order for the "church" to face its accuser, you need to meet with not only myself but any other representatives the church chooses, not just those that you specify." Your dad was right. There is nothing I could have said that would make them believe that I was sincere in my motives. He was also correct in stating that I most likely would not have changed my mind about HH. My request for a meeting was ill considered at best. Some times I am not as smart as I think I am (a bit of self defacing humor there). In August of 2005, Steve Lundford of the North Texas Home School Network offered to mediate between WFI and HH. We accepted and HH declined. So I guess we are even. As to my asking for your comments on BA quotes on cultural influence, I was not trying to bait you or trap you. I would like to have you comment on something substantive for a change. Your year long replies of "Not either. Not either." are getting old.   praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 181 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 5:24 pm:        Hi Folks, Mrs. Alvear, I was simply pointing out salient facts that you omitted, and also indicating how folks can have a difference of perception, and how easy spinning is to do. Also how you took a path of alienation and public opposition rather than friendship and letting the Lord Jesus continue to move through the situation of yourself, your friends and ministry, and HH. And for awhile you tried calling me a liar, we saw that that was only your own misunderstandings. Now you say that I don't pass some witness test, hearsay, etc. ... however that is simply a way to avoid really relating to what I shared above about the incidents ... situations that you posted about here a dozen times or more. Example .. my asking if you ever even talked to HH about the booth question before making a big public brouhaha. The proper path. I dunno if you ever did, and it would seem to be an obvious question, since it is pretty easy to see how such a situation could arise from a misunderstanding or misperception on one side or another or both. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 506 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.11.95 Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 6:18 pm:        Well, I would say most people that read here are adults...so they can judge for themselves. There is a Japanese proverb that says, "when you stumble, don't get up empty handed" Tonight after all I went through at HH my head knows what to tell my heart... I suggest if they are any interested parties get in contact with HH, get in contact with those who oppose HH and judge for yourself...and one thing I have learned through the years of mission work...time reveals a lot of things... I leave it to time and to the Lord...He and only He alone knows HH hearts and our hearts...   old_watchman Junior Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 9:59 am:        Daaaaaan-ielllllllll!   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 575 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:02 am:        I am still here, and I will respond to you this evening. It is taking me some time to decipher all the double talk in your last post.   old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 12:19 pm:        Are you saying I am amphibious; able to speak out of both sides of my mouth at the same time?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 578 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 6:59 pm:        Howdy OldWatchman, I am still trying to figure out what your last post means. Maybe I am just dense, but I thought that 'amphibious' had something to do with anything that operates on land and also in water... Maybe we are redefining words here on FN. At any rate, lets get down to your second to last post. You quoted part of the letter my dad sent you, and then you said; "Your dad was right. There is nothing I could have said that would make them believe that I was sincere in my motives." Again, maybe I am dense, but it seems you are acknowledging the futileness of a meeting with HH. You are right. At the point in time you extended your feigned 'gracious' offer to HH, you had already dug yourself a hole so deep that "a friendly meeting over dinner" (to quote one of your e-mails from that time) just wasn't going to dig you out of it. What I want to bring to your attention, yet again, is the simple fact that you stepped outside of every Biblical guideline for dealing with a problem in the Church. Just as Real_Truth so eloquently pointed out to you months ago, YOU are the one who parted ways with the Bible and Christianity when you began your assault on HH. Before EVER even having the common decency of requesting a meeting with HH, you went public with your reprehensible attack on HH. You are the one who is at fault here sir, not HH. Here is a link to a thread you should read, http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi. The timeline of events in your un-Godly attack of HH is very important. I will repeat, only after you went public with you attack of HH did you ask for a meeting with them. Because of that fact, is it really a suprise to anyone that HH rejected the meeting that was to moderated by Mr. Lundford of the North Texas Home School Network? You had already displayed yourself, and the "ministry" (note the little 'm') you represent, to be in blatent and unrepentant disregard of the Bible and Christianity. Why should HH or anyone else meet with you? Essentially, you had already turned your cards over, and displayed to HH, and the world, what a poor hand you held. In my opinion, they decided not to humiliate you. Maybe you should be thanking them, not attacking them...? DOwen. (Message edited by dowen on May 24, 2006)   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 580 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 6:11 am:        Whoops, my link didn't work, try this one. "Here you go Truth Hunter". (Message edited by dowen on May 25, 2006)   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 521 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.22.210 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:39 am:        My how Dowen who is not a member of HH knows so much personal business of theirs...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 581 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 12:41 pm:        Personal??????? What is 'personal' about your behaviour here on FN? It is very duplicitous of you to on one hand mock me for knowing too much, and on the other accuse me of not knowing anything. What is it going to be? Do I know what I am talking about, or no? You can't have it both ways.   old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 1:21 pm:        Howdy your own self, Young Mr. O. I must say, I am disappointed that after all your ruminating last evening all you could come up with was ART’s old Matthew 18 mantra. So be it. I did not just happen to stumble across Homestead last year and decide to make them my new whipping boy. I have been aware of them for years. I have talked with many who have been affiliated with the group for years. I knew the players, the history, the theology, something of the culture and life under that culture. I was not ignorant in that I did not lack knowledge. So what precipitated the immediate necessity for a broadly readable warning to the public about Homestead Heritage. My opening post on FactNet states that necessity, “In the February, 2005 issue of Christianity Today Magazine, there was a feature article on an intentional community in Elm Mott, Texas, the Homestead Heritage. The pictures and description of life on the land painted an idyllic picture. However, the reality of life within this group may not be what it appears. I would like to share with you the other side of the story. To begin, Homestead Heritage may have within its fellowship many Christians who attend, but, the beliefs of Homestead Heritage are squarely outside of orthodox Christianity. They disguise their true teachings from outsiders and inquirers” The remaining portion of the opening post was dedicated to substantiating the above evaluation, quoting from HH material and corroborated by people who had lived in the community for years. No one person in the HH community had “sinned” against me, the whole HH community was sinning against the One who had saved those who had been born again. They were sinning against the Lord. Many had given testimony to the talks they had with leaders about the doctrines and practices of HH. The testimony of all was that the leaders of HH were unmoved by the efforts of now former members to discuss the issues. Those who had suffered at the hands of HH leaders had attempted to address the sinners who had sinned against them, but to no avail. They were not able to carry through with the rest of the judicial process because those holding authority through them out or ask them to leave or be thrown out. You see in HH the congregation does not have the final say in anything. They do not have any say in anything. How can the whole church judge a matter if the whole church never hears the matter and has not power anyway? But, these things have been pointed out to you numerous times in previous posts. All you have in your HH brain compartment is, “My dad is right and everybody else is a liar.” Now, I have told you why I started this tread at the time I started it and why I started it. The posts on this thread have served the purpose for which they were intended and will continue to do so. The public is forewarned. Now as to my asking to meet you and your father, it was a stupid idea. I apologize for being stupid. I had knowledge of the teachings of HH but I wanted to meet you and your dad to get to know some real people with the group. To be so incredibly wise, I am still sometimes naïve, which in this case equated to stupid. You and your dad will continue to believe that my purpose was sinister, diabolical and fraught with evil intent, but it was just a dumb idea.   old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 1:23 pm:        mouthy old koot continues; Mr. Lundford of NTHSN did not offer to moderate, he offered to mediate. Get out your dictionary. Let’s see, what else; the choice of “amphibious” and using it with “both sides of my mouth” instead of saying “ambidextrous” was supposed to be humorous, but if I have to explain it … I guess I should take your advice and thank the leaders of HH for not “humiliating me” by breaking bread with me and looking my in the eye and bald-faced lying to me when I ask them a straightforward question about what they really believe. Oh, you did spell “ministry” correctly. It was not a proper noun in your context. Well, that’s all I’ve got from down here in the hole. Back to you D.   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 522 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.87.160 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 1:57 pm:        What is personal...You seem to know how much their offerings are...what goes on...Yes, of course we know it is a family thing... I was teasing you...   praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 187 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 6:26 pm:        "to get to know some real people with the group" tis very sad and telling that the social instigator of the organized attacks on HH never even travelled a short distance to see the community and talk to a few people, never a chat face-to-face, heart-to-heart, in any environment, at any time. Not to ask about responses to specific claims, not to simply see the land and a fair or concert, and see the heart and minds of folks, the environment firsthand. And tis also sad that these supposed Christian anti-cult groups are themselves quick to seek to use the secular psycho-babble ideas against Christian community. Ideas that could not conceivably recognize true Christian community if it moved next door. And then his Watchman group even connects with pop Christianity that is far from biblical truth, connections with new-age influenced nonsense like Ken Blanchard, and giving sanction by using the writings from the plagiarist deceiver James Trimm. Then to top it off they put out broadsides of scriptural disinformation that would (when you turn the corner) accuse all the 'Acts 2:38 grace message' people here, and the oneness folks, of being heretics, cultists and such. Not just oneness, they would accuse even Church of Christ. Yes, they plaster that type of junque in their literature, its easy to read on the net, and it exposes the heart of rebellion of the anti-cultist instigating clique. That is one reason I warn folks about the type of cabal at work behind the scenes here, always trying to put things into a context (a tin house) of psychobabble abuse conceptions. Those who truly seek the truth of the word of God, who desire to be disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, (whether friendly with HH or not) should seek to be very awares of the spiritual forces at work. Yours in the name of Jesus, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 528 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.121.57 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 7:44 pm:        All the things you talk about has nothing to do with why people on this board left HH.   old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.242.220.121 Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:09 pm:        Steven, I was talking to Daniel not you. You have your own personal agenda here and it has nothing to do with HH. If anyone has any questions about the off-subject matters mentioned by Steven, contact me at, parnn@watchamn.org   praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 194 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:48 am:        Hi Folks, And if anybody needs to be warned, with more detailed info, about the watchman fellowship and anti-cult psychobabble and anti-oneness and old_watchman agendas they are welcome to post publicly right here, (perhaps in new threads) especially since this forum is his creation. (Also I have posted my email addy.) The idea of my 'personal agenda' has been a fantasy creation of Phillip to avoid the uncomfortable truths. And the fact of his not even travelling a short distance to see anyone face-to-face is well known. His attack is based on a type of deliberate blind ignorance, the easier to accuse from a scripted agenda. And if Phillip wants to have a personal conversation with Daniel, without other comments, then he should simply email him privately. Anything posted here is on an open forum, subject to counterpoint and exposure from others. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 531 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.27.24 Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 9:00 am:        It is not the fact on this topic if Philp is anti whatever the subject on this board is HH. I would imagine we have a dozen or so different church people writing here and we all have different veiws...Keep the subject on this forum to HH. Thanks   praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 198 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:01 am:        Tis very one dimensional not to understand the forces trying to come against Christianity in general, and especially against Christian community (which will always have a greater sense of authority and discipleship and responsibility than the denominational church world). The forces at work (the secular constructs that are used to attack any Christian authority, including oneness churches and all community and more) are very dark, and unfortunately they have a lot to with the sources of the views here, originating from Watchman Fellowship. It reminds me some of the "I'm ok, your ok" psychobabble movement of a few years back. Ironically, you can see the same lingo used here as is used in the ex-oneness and anti-oneness groups. "spiritual abuse" "abuse of authority" "false doctrine" "legalism" "men usurping" "break free". That is why simply attacking HH is an impoverished road. (And I give credit to Ishe, for all his hostility, for trying to raise the issues of alternatives, that at least puts more 'cards on the table'). And Mrs. Alvear, your situation is one that is perhaps the most grievous. Your accountability and responsibility is large before God (we have men men like Phillip, who know so little of the foundational experiences) and you have taken an easy path, one of hostility and animosity, one that will be acceptable to the folks who gave you 'counsel' ... rather than the humility that you once sought to nurture. May you be drawn to a place of holy awe and sanctity and respect. In Jesus name, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 534 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.49.80 Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:04 am:        I and I alone will give account for my actions I feel before God and my superiors that I have done the right thing.   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 536 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.127.191 Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 6:07 pm:        Humility is not letting people kill a baby...   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 302 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 5:48 am:        Hey Prax, I noticed on another thread that you are being chastised for your vocabulary. I enjoy reading your posts and have expanded my vocabulary because of your post. I admit that I am jealous of your pontifiacatory abilities and yet as I try to decipher your writings in all their splendor perhaps it is my lesser perceptive abilities that finds little logic in some of your summations. You posted regarding Phillip….. [tis very sad and telling that the social instigator of the organized attacks on HH never even traveled a short distance to see the community and talk to a few people, never a chat face-to-face, heart-to-heart, in any environment, at any time. Not to ask about responses to specific claims, not to simply see the land and a fair or concert, and see the heart and minds of folks, the environment firsthand.] Prax, you are an intelligent person and your writings show that. There are at least a dozen testimonies on this web-site who were members of HH for years. Not one or two years but five, ten or even fifteen years. We have testified of trying to bring up issues to the leadership of HH before and after we left. There is no format for compromise, negotiation or trying to work things out even for those us that walked among HH for years. If there is no audience with those of us who have been members in HH for years, what kind of honest straight forward answers do you think Phillip would get from HW? Instead of dealing with the issues we have brought up regarding HH’s system of control, Jesus come in the flesh and so many others, you are still harping about Oneness and Jesus Name baptism which virtually every ex-member agrees with. And even though Phillip does not agree with those doctrines he has stated on this forum that Oneness and Jesus Name baptism is not an issue of salvation. This is a red-herring debate technique that one learns early in discussions or debate. This is not about whether HH or UPC is a cult or not. This is about a group of people that hold to the belief that they have the only path to salvation and in the process of defending and maintaining that belief are preaching and teaching a gospel of works and control that is at worst destroying families and individuals and at best stunting their spiritual growth and participation in the Body of Christ as a whole. I posted on another post something that bears repeating. If what I am posting is not true and HH does not believe that they are the only light, if they do not believe that anyone leaving HH only hope for salvation is to return to complete submission to HH, then where are those groups? You have been a friend to HH Steve, you believe in Oneness and Jesus Name baptism, you have a heart for community and you have had some recent correspondence with the group. If one of the brothers in Waco had a close friend or relative living in New York who had lived there for years and had kids and grandkids and a house etc. why couldn’t HH say hey, no need to move to Texas go fellowship with brother Steve he is walking in righteousness. If not you how about even one fellowship in New York, California, Florida or Michigan anywhere. The fact is HH trusts no other group that is not directly submitted to HH. That is why they told sister Alvear to kill the baby. They recognize NO ONE that is not submitted to them in covenant. They say they do, but if they do then who and where? Under Grace   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 537 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.81.244 Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 7:01 am:        That is exactly what I am trying to say...they recognize NO ONE that is not submitted to them in covenat. We were no bodies there like little babies they had to pacifiy. No One can imagine what we felt like there...we were never "smart" enough to converse on their levels because they accept no one's feelings on things but their own. Different times I mentioned different good books to them and quickly they told me the errors of the books... They do not want their people to read anything but their writings... Oneness has nothing to do with why I write on this board....but liberty does.   claire_messenger New member Username: claire_messenger Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 172.169.91.125 Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 2:23 pm:        I don't know about Oneness but I feel what you are saying. All my life I have felt that I was never smart enough or in the right place, etc. Actually, to a certain degree it seems like Satan has had a master plan to trip me up all my life! In fact, all this is in the Bible but I never really applied it to myself. I think I am really beginning to understand what destructive mind control really is. All my life I have been taught to fear it - the mind control - not know that it was the mind controllers teaching me this! I think during the last year or so, the scales have been coming off my eyes. Liberty is a very new concept to me even though I have heard about it all my life. The thing is that I don't know if I could ever have complete liberty by myself. I know that Jesus is there and I know he can carry me through but the thought of having a pair of helping hands to break the bondage along the way would be a wonderful gift. Peace   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 303 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:44 pm:        Hello Sister Claire, Welcome to this site. You do not say what kind of control you have been under, later if you want to share what happened feel free to do so. There are many kinds of control the one person can hold over another. Unhealthy mind control and blind submission is one thing, Godly discipline another. There have been times when my kids would say that I have used mind control and they are required to blindly submit when they did not understand why. For a season that is the case for children and to some extent new Christians as well. For some the line may be hard to distinguish between legitimate discipleship and unhealthy control. From reading the posts here that line has been well defined regarding HH. The important thing is that you are searching for truth and freedom in your life now. James said if wisdom is of God it is “First of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.” Search your heart the Holy Spirit will confirm what is of God. We have an advocate in Jesus who will “lead us and guide us in all truth.” Trust the Holy Spirit, find some Christians who will help you. We need the Body of Christ to help us find and keep the “law of liberty” maintained by the “law of love”. God Bless in your search, even when I have failed or fallen there is always a place of comfort and peace abiding in His kingdom…….. Under Grace   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.101 Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:45 am:        Hello Claire, I am going to be praying for you. Breaking free can be an emotional rollercoaster, but peace does come. You can e-mail me at formerhh@yahoo.com if you like. I stay really busy, but I will return e-mail when I can. God bless you, Forever His (Robin)   missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 540 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.108.15 Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 8:02 am:        Claire: UG used a phase that I like, "Legitimate dicipleship and unhealthy control." If you find yourself in the mist of a people that have to lie to outsiders then get out. Somewhere between far left and far right there must be balance and warnings that when people lie in the Name of God or lead you to believe a lie they have really told a half truth which is a double lie. The Bible gives us a solemn charge not to lie. We are to obey those that have rule over us but not to the point that we ask no questions. If your experience has others thinking for you and you are just a little robot then you are in a place you need to get out of. And if you need help we are always here to help those that look for the right balance... Evil flourishes when it is hidden; injustice festers when the victim is unseen. And history demonstrates that those who have overcome evil have followed Paul’s advice to expose the evil. Ephesians 5:11 “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” So weigh your situation in the view of God's word...   foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 44 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:43 pm:        Bump   majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 4:02 pm:        I'd call it mental conditioning.

Add Your Message Here Post: -Color- Black Red Green Blue Yellow Purple Orange Cyan Gray White -Font- Arial Courier Symbol Times Verdana -Size- Smallest (-2) Small (-1) Normal Large (+1) Largest (+2) Username: Posting Information: This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here. Password: Options: Enable HTML code in message Automatically activate URLs in message Action: