Smith Wigglesworth Questions?

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Author Message   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 90 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:17 pm:        Okay so I get through finals this week and get back home today in time to get back to the mens group that I organized last May in our Southern Baptist church, I was real anxious to find out how the 'men of integrity' group was going since I had to leave for college. What I got was a little shocking, first the group has been renamed 'men of faith' and they are teaching out of a book by a guy named Smith Wigglesworth. They were reading these stories of amazing miracles that this GUY wrote about HIMSELF and acting as if this was proof positive that these things took place. HELLO???? I want clear-cut evidence that this guy was the real-deal, I mean really because he writes that he healed people and had all this power from the Holy Spirit does not make it true. My little group of men has evolved into a tongues-speaking, miracles believing, prosperity claiming and by all means dont let a negative word slip past your tongue group of complete idiots, how do I reverse the Titanic at this point? Any Idea's?   dondi (dondi) New member Username: dondi Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.225.243.48 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:34 pm:        Well, I googled him and all I could find were sites trtying to sell his books. Also, I found he is somehow tied to Benny Hinn, so that doesn't give me much faith   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 91 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:54 pm:        Yeah, I couldnt find anything about except stuff HE wrote about HIM, and people just fall over for this stuff like they have no choice. stabi   the_fbi (the_fbi) New member Username: the_fbi Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 141.153.229.97 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 3:22 am:        here are some smith wigglesworth audio messages. they are very good. http://www.thebiblerevival.com/wigglesworth.htm   the_fbi (the_fbi) New member Username: the_fbi Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 141.153.229.97 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 3:23 am:        btw, he died in 1947 so i can't see how he would have anything to do with benny hinn.   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:54 am:        Smith Wigglesworth was a true man of God. Read his sermons, he loved God! He read no book but the bible. If he went 15 mins in a conversation without mentioning God, he would weep and repent, feeling that he was backslid. He had no affliation with Benny Hinn. at best, Hinn would have been a small child when Wigglesworth died. Wigglesworth was true Word-Faith. He trusted God, period. He was in his 80's when he died and still had all his own teeth and did not wear glasses. He took the bible for what it said, acted on it,and got results. If you doubt the power of God is for today, get into His Word and sincerely seek Him in prayer to know the truth. you'll be surprised at what you find out. I personally have prayed for people in the name of Jesus and seen them healed. If God is limited, its because of us (our unbelief). Dan   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 916 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:09 am:        dpike are you implying his strong faith in God is what kept him out of glasses and dentures-you see it's teachings like that -that lead to many deciding -hey- I can stomp on my glasses- cut out the chemo and God will heal me if my faith is there.... you say "if God is limited it's because of your faith?" Let me tell you some thing dpike- people die because of teachings like that and they and their believing family members are humilated because when they aren't healed surely it must have been their faith that was at fault-because behold I give you power to tread upon serpents and scorpians and whatever you ask in MY name it shall be given to thee...the guy had good genes it nothing to do with faith-I see people everyday who have different skin and health conditions never would i give them the option of putting their faith in God over a medical treatment-he gave me the talent to heal through knowledge and training willigsworth obviously lived a life of guilt- do you think maybe he would of died at 50 had he not mentioned God every 15 minutes-come on!!!!!! You probably like Copeland and Hagin too he obviously influenced them... (Message edited by rachelengland on December 15, 2005)   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 1:05 pm:        Rachelengland: Read what I said. Wigglesworth read nothing but the bible. He repented, if he went 15 minutes without talking about God. He lived his faith and knew God. Additionally, the man spent hours and hours and hours in prayer seeking God. He paid his dues to get where he did in God. And God is no respector of persons, He will do the same for you and give the same or greater level of committment to Him. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Smith's life and faith in God attested to his time spent in the Word and prayer. Read what I said and remove your blinders and take the handcuffs off God. Another man of God to read about is John G. Lake. He had a tremendous healing ministry in Washington State. His healings are documented. I do NOT advocate anyone stomping thier glasses, or throwing out their medications or any such foolishness! I suggested in my previous post that one study their bible and sincerely seek God in prayer and see what they found out. That statement implies a direct revelation from God Himself as to whether He does miracles today or not. No one is to act presumptuously. Dan   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 925 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 1:18 pm:        whoopie-don't tell me to take my blinders off for i am not blind nearsighted but not blind and I don't have handcuffs on God i could really care less what God does but be careful what you say about peoples "faith" not being there- it's offensive- for we need very little faith-like that of a mustard seed....   john_parker (john_parker) Intermediate Member Username: john_parker Post Number: 162 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.138 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 1:27 pm:        Unfortunately, it is the same (in church groups) almost everywhere you go today God s Word gets shoved back in favor of Church doctrinal pamphlets Or cunningly devised fables of men. And they will (yet still) wonder why they failed to make the first resurrection (to Christ) at His Second Advent? PEACE   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 927 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 1:39 pm:        John you said it perfectly in your own words and i'm taking it your on my side- for someone needs to be for once! but then again i read it over and maybe your not on my side? (Message edited by rachelengland on December 15, 2005)   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 3:08 pm:        Rachel In this politically correct madhouse anti-God generation, I could'nt care less who I offend in the name of the truth. The gifts of the Spirit (healing, miracles etc) are for today. Anyone that is willing to put their time into the Word and Prayer will find that out and act accordingly. I don't get my information from any church pamphlets or doctrinal statements either. Jesus offended alot of people when he walked the earth (including his disciples) and did it without apology. If mustard seed faith is all it takes, why are'nt you doing miracles?   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 935 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 3:19 pm:        Jesus was offended by people like you dpike- don't even for a moment try to compare yourself to Jesus -how do you know i don't perform miracles? I don't need to be a showoff like wigglesworth and Lake and have everything documented-   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 3:49 pm:        LOL! You're a riot!   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 940 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 4:03 pm:        I know just like to stir the pot a bit -had a slow day at work thanks for the conversation but we do have to be careful dpike not to accuse people of not having enough faith-friends   justlittleolme (justlittleolme) New member Username: justlittleolme Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.164.29.93 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 4:12 pm:        From what I'm reading, I honestly have to say that I really think you folks should think twice before commenting on anyones ministry. I don't think that Jesus would appreciate anyone comparing themselves to him in a self righteous spirit. We are made in His image and are most definately HIS master craftmanship, but when you bash people for sharing an opinion that does not agree with yours, it is in direct violation of the scripture that states that a servant of God must not quarel, that is only ruins those who listen.. We are to speak the TRUTH in love, and not put people down if they choose not to accept or confirm it. The Bible also says that we are not to Judge another mans servant. Wigglesworth is not our servant. It is alright for us to closely examine his teachings to see if they are line with scripture and to also watch the fruit of his life for the same reason. Although some of his practices where very odd and well lets face it, bizarre! He did bring about more good than out right rebellion against God.. We need to stop attacking the people that do things that are strange and start bringing into accountability the ones who are teaching doctrines that are strange.. Well thats my two cents.. Thanks.   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 4:33 pm:        Rachel: Friends! Justlittleolme:   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 943 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.57 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 4:44 pm:        thanks for your two cents and what was that wink about are you and dpike married or church friends? dpike again thanks for the conversation it's good for me to argue my points we don't agree but you fought fair-I have my reasons for feeling the way I do take care rachelengland the one and only   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 41 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 5:34 pm:        They did not have a 'Thumbs up' icon, so I settled for a wink.   john_parker (john_parker) Intermediate Member Username: john_parker Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.138 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 6:14 pm:        Hi rachelengland I think you are cute as well as right PEACE   dondi (dondi) New member Username: dondi Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.233.220.59 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:31 pm:        Rachel, are you the same rachel that was on the Koresh boards?   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 92 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:32 pm:        I really got into one of Wigglesworth's books today and all through it he talks about laying hands on people and them being baptized in the Holy Spirit and EVERY single time the evidence of that baptism was said recipient speaking in an unknown tongues or utterance. This is crazy. Norman Geisler give's an excellent defense for the cessation of tongues with the apostles in his book Systematic Theology-Vol.4 and even if you dont believe tongues have ceased you surely would have to agree based on Gods word that Tongues at best are A sign, not THE sign, but just one of many different signs, the greatest gift of course being love. Hyper-Charismatics/Pentecostals can be traced to Meta-Physics and Eastern Mystic religions, they simply took the 'Positive Confession', 'Name It Claim It' and the 'Trance like states of Slain in the Spirit' and repackaged them for Christian consumption, its really satanic. I am not perfect by a long shot, I simply went from unsaved sinner to saved sinner through Christs sacrifice. But it does not take perfection to figure this stuff out-study Gods word daily and he will illuminate to you these things-test the spirits. Stabi   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 947 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.114.138 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:52 pm:        john thank-you I hope you'll make me a heroine in one of your non-fiction stories-I look like Linda Carter so give me a good story line-dondi no sorry I'm not Stabidak-God bless you you speak the truth the name it and claim it crowd have hurt many with their false teachings-rachel   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 948 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.114.138 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:52 pm:        john thank-you I hope you'll make me a heroine in one of your non-fiction stories-I look like Linda Carter so give me a good story line- dondi no sorry I'm not Stabidak-God bless you you speak the truth the name it and claim it crowd have hurt many with their false teachings-rachel   justlittleolme (justlittleolme) New member Username: justlittleolme Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.164.29.93 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 8:25 pm:        Rachel, I don't have clue who dpike777 is? I was unaware that I was giving the impression that I was leaning more in their direction than yours? trust me.. I'm just someone that likes to check into factnet every now and again to see if there are any interesting topics and I picked this thread. I think you guys are both cool, just a little quarelsome and not effectively getting your points across to anyone due to your back and forth banter.. thanks.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 954 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.114.138 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 8:31 pm:        I know but we worked it out in the end-we just have to be careful with the different teachings out there christians need to as stabidak said test the spirits-it keeps everything in check and people remaining safe and healthy is my goal around here- and I like to have a little fun-rachel   justlittleolme (justlittleolme) New member Username: justlittleolme Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.164.29.93 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 8:47 pm:        Thats cool.. I like a good debate.. I also struggle with keeping it edifying if you know what I mean?? Its hard when some people just know how to push your buttons. Especially when it is something you feel acceptionally passionate about. I just love truth.. Even if it's not popular, it sounds to me like your the same kind of person.   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:11 pm:        justlittleolme-Wigglesworth did do quite a few strange things, like punching people in the stomach to heal them of cancer! When they asked Wigglesworth why he did it he said he was punching the devil to knock him out of the person, puhleeze! The sad thing is people believe and in fact flock to this kind of stuff in droves, they give billions of dollars a year to these false teachers and in the end many genuine people are left with no money, no hope, and in some cases, no salvation. The faith healers have redefined faith, faith is not a force that you can have to little of, faith is a living trust that I have in God to do what he say's he would do, thats all faith is. The great faith hall of fame chapter in Hebrews chap.11 does not end at verse 34, where is these folk's prosperity? Heb 11:35 Women received their dead by resurrection; but others were beaten to death, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Heb 11:36 And others received trial of mockings and of floggings; yea, more, of bonds and of prison: Heb 11:37 they were stoned; they were tried; they were sawn in two; they died by murder of sword; they went about in sheepskins and in goatskins, being in need, being afflicted, being ill-treated; Heb 11:38 of whom the world was not worthy, wandering in deserts, and mountains, and caves, and the holes of the earth. Heb 11:39 And having obtained witness through the faith, these all did not obtain the promise, Heb 11:40 God having foreseen something better concerning us, that they should not be perfected apart from us. Stabi   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 980 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:51 pm:        Stabi, I am going to tell you the story I heard given by Brother Smith Wigglesworth to Brother Lester Sumrall before Brother Sumrall died. Brother Sumrall died around 10 years ago in his mid-80's one week before my wife and I were going to see him. We called the church and they told us that Brother Sumrall would not be speaking because he had just died. I saw the testimony on T.V. given by Brother Sumerall a couple month before he died. It went something like this. Brother Wigglesworth was ministering in a "healing line." What people would do is line up and Brother Wigglesworth would pray one-by-one for healing. Brother Wigglesworth came to one man who was bent over, his Doctor was beside him. Brother Wigglesworth asked the Doctor what was wrong with him, and the Doctor replied that the man was dying of stomach cancer. The next thing that Brother Wigglesworth did most people would think was pretty crazy. The Brother punched the man in the stomach as hard as he could and the man fell on the ground dead. Brother Wigglesworth just turned and kept praying. The Doctor shouted, "You killed him! His family and I will sue you!" Brother Wigglesworth just kept on praying down the pray line, not looking back, and said back to the Doctor in his accent, "He heeaalled!" The Doctor turned back and the man was on his feet dancing up and down healed by the power of God. Then the went dancing, praising God, and thanked Brother Wigglesworth. Ok, that was the story! Erich   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 95 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:05 am:        Thats an interesting story, I would like to see something like that myself. I have heard that story repeated several times by many different supporters of Wigglesworth, likewise Wigglesworth doubters also use that exact same story to justify their unbelief,interesting eh? Stabi   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 982 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:37 am:        Stabi, Apostle of Faith, an autobiography of Smith Wigglesworth is one of the most interesting books that I have ever read. Smith Wigglesworth actually had countries in Europe make laws regarding him specifically, that he could not grab a person by the arm out of their wheelchair. The story goes is that he would just pull people out of their wheelchairs and they would walk. The story says that near the end of his meetings he had to tell people in the wheelchairs to put their hands on themselves and pray to be healed. Erich   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 983 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:51 am:        Stabi, I know where you are coming from. I respect your perspective and do remember posts you have made in the past. The following Scriptures are interesting to me and I just can't agree with the "dispensationalist" ideas regarding the following Scriptures, the words of Jesus Christ. John 14:12-14 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV John 16:23 23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. KJV Erich   belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 223 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:20 am:        Dear Stabi, I have read couple of books of Smith Wigglesworth. This man's ministry was surely attested by miraculous manifestations of the Spirit. To introduce myself, I come from an orthodox hindu family and at the age of 9, I had a life-changing encounter with the Lord Jesus in my room. I had sarcoma(muscle cancer), and my mother watched the monster cancer eating away her son. I tell people my background, not to get credibility, but to let them know that I have no preconceived knowledge about the Christian faith. I believe Christians are so used to the realities of God, that they don't value it. The greatest gift the Lord Jesus has given to us is the gift of the Holy Spirit. He calls Him, the Spirit of truth. The Holy Spirit is a very real person.The Scriptures were written by holy prophets and apostles who were inspired by this dear Holy Spirit. But He will teach ONLY if you come to Him in humility, as a child. Most Christians as I have seen, who belong to certain denominations have adhered to certain doctrines which in actuality was not inspired by the Spirit of truth. The Holy Spirit is unable to teach a person who will not bury his opinions and preconceived notions. When we, in humility, bury our own opinions, then the Holy Spirit is ready to teach us His Word. The Holy Spirit serves absolute truth, and nothing else. And it is knowledge of the truth from Him, that sets us free. Likewise, if you adhere to lies or half-lies, they will bind you. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever". The works of Jesus were to continue till Jesus comes, but the Church of Jesus Christ failed. However, in this final hour of the Gentile dispensation, the gifts of the Spirit has been restored to the Church once again as the Church moved beyond preconceived notions and traditional doctrines. The Lord told me that this is the crowning hour of the Holy Spirit. He is being poured out on all flesh as He was poured out on the early Church. Those who say the age of miracles are over, cannot even be saved, because the greatest miracle of all miracles is the miracle of new-birth or salvation. There is no scripture, however, supporting the doctrine that the age of miracles is over. For those who believe in such a doctrine,I need to warn them that they have made their own Jesus, not the Jesus that the early Church preached, nor the Jesus that the bible speaks of. Smith Wigglesworth is a man of God, who loves God. He has gone to be with the Lord. I'm glad there are such preachers who dare to preach the whole truth. Sidharth   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:34 am:        God cannot and will not do more than the individual is willing to believe Him for. If one believes that the power of God ends at salvation, then that is all the will have. I'm certainly not knocking salvation, at least the individual is saved! There is alot more to press into though. Salvation is a free gift, but Jesus gives promises to the overcomer (see the letters to the seven churches in revelation.) One bad apple spoils the whole bunch. I dont deny that their are charlatans out there who take it too far, and do not represent Word-Faith right. They give the impression that all you have to do is just flippantly speak the Word and expect everything to turn out right. It won't work that way. We are all Word-faith to a point. One could not get saved except they 'believe' what the Word says, Rom 10:9-10. You had to believe the Word in order to get saved. The same with healing or anything else, you have to believe it in your heart (it has to come alive in you), then you take a stand on what the Word says. If someone was to come up to you and tell ask you for your assurance of salvation what would you tell them? You would point to the Word of God, because you believe what it says. Well, the same with healing, gifts of the Spirit, etc.. Get into the Word and ask God to reveal the truth to your heart, and when faith comes alive in you, then stand on the Word. Additional note: One needs to be careful what they call satanic. Jesus warned the religious leaders about attributing the things of God to the devil. He called it blasphemying the Holy Ghost (the unpardonable sin). Mar 3:22,28-30 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils... Verily I say unto you, (Jesus speaking) All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, HE HATH AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT. Dan}   nabashalam (nabashalam) Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.168.113.17 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 7:05 am:        Hey Dan! I was going to my regular section, the Twelve Tribes, Im a ex-member, and I saw your moniker! I said to myself"whos trying to pretend to be me!". Anyway, my name is David Pike and Ive been on fact net for a year and a half. My name here was ex_yathed now Ive changed it to nabashalam. You can see my postings on the Twelve Tribes threads. Heck, we might be kin! Are your kin from Appalachia? Just wonderin...Cheers!   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 43 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 7:45 am:        David: I don't think we are related. My kin are all pretty much from this area (Central Village, Connecticut). If you have any ancestors from up this way, then, there may be a blood link. Dan   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 955 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.5 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 7:56 am:        dpike states that "God will not do more than the individual is willing to believe him for"-this is false-I grew up in a non-denom church where the gifts flowed freely I saw my share of people who put there faith and trust fully in the Lord and he didn't heal them....you may turn around and say as typically said -well they must not have had their lives right before the Lord-again your implying people need to live holy.perfect lives in order for God to heal them -many feel shame when they aren't healed or they feel like failures-God will do what he wants when he wants-he's bigger than our plan and our desires-the faith teachings and name and claim it are a terrible show of true christianity -Jesus healed because he had compassion-not because he was a showoff-and I'm sure many of those he did heal didn't have an ounce of faith-   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 96 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 8:32 am:        I am not anti-miracles or healing or anti-gifts or anything like that. I believe that God has the power to heal anyone that he choose's to heal whenever he choose's to do it. I believe that we should seek out Gods will for our lives first and foremost, seek ye first the kingdom of God. The death rate on this Earth is 1:1, no one escapes it, ultimately we will die of the last thing we are sick of, all of us, if we live full lives to an old age, others will die in childhood, some in there teens, others in the prime of their lives, point is death is inevitable. When miracles become the norm they fail to be miracles. Stabi   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 44 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 8:57 am:        Rachel: I cannot see into the heart of anyone, neither can you. But God can see it all. Just because someones says they have faith does not mean they do. Another thing: There is difference between a healing and a miracle. People go to God for healing and when it does not happen instantly (a miracle) they are disappointed. A healing is progressive, a miracle happens instantly. What are they after a healing, or a miracle? You cannot go to God with an expectation that is 'hit or miss'. A double-minded man will receive nothing from the Lord because he is unstable in all his ways. When Jesus performed His healing/miracles, He did it according to their faith, not His own. I did not write the Word of God, I'm just telling you what it says. Also, God does not want anyone going to the altar for prayer who has unforgiveness in their heart toward another. Again, I cannot see into anyones heart and neither can you. Now I agree that God is sovereign. The widows son was raised from the dead and the Word says nothing about there being any faith present. Jesus did purely out of compassion. Dan   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 959 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.137 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 8:58 am:        perfectly stated then-God choses-he's in charge for too long people have used the words "in Jesus name" thinking they can get whatever they want with it- likes it's a magical jeanie in a bottle-people need to use the good sense God gave them and make right decisions for their health and wellbeing christianity has become a joke!-Rachel   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 97 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 8:59 am:        Jesus healed because he was in his Earthly ministry and he is Jesus, son of God, mans redeemer and I give him all glory and praise. The cessation of the apostolic healing gift is clear from scripture, even the apostles themselves ceased to practice it in the latter New Testament church. Healing is not even mentioned in the list's of gifts from that time and the Apostles had close associates that they were NOT able to heal. 1 Tim 5:23, 2 Tim 4:20 The latter New Testament implies that the special gift of healing by the apostles was a past even, they stated by A.D. 68-69 that their message had already been confirmed by miracles (Heb.2:3-4). No one alive today displays such gifts. Biblical miracles were unique wrought by power no one now possesses. These healing gifts were instataneous, ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL and they ALWAYS LASTED and they ALWAYS glorified God. in light of these standards it is positively clear that no one alive today has these kinds of powers to perform , on command, instataneous cures of incurable sicknesse's, with 100% success and with no relapses, this miraculous gift has indeed ceased, this gift was temporary and was used to establish the foundation of the first church. This does not mean miracles have ceased, God can perform a miracle anytime he chooses and the glory is to God. Stabi   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 984 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 9:30 am:        Stabi, You have just gone to reapeating the Scofield/Ryrie/Mac Arthur/Past Conservative Baptist Dispensational mantra. It is wrong and not Scripturally supportable! The Church of Jesus Christ has not because it asks not. There is no faith. Erich   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.12.190 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 9:36 am:        Rachel: I agree the Church is in a sorry state, because the people are not being taught, only preached at. Stabidak: I don't believe anything 'ceased'. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He healed in the O.T., in the N.T. and He heals today. 20 years ago, I was visiting the home of a friend and as it turned out his son was sick. He had been violently ill whole day. The parents were beside themselves. I touched the boys forehead 'in the name of Jesus' and in less than 10 minutes that boy was up and playing with his toys, perfectly fine. One day my wife had a bad headache. I touched her head 'in the name of Jesus' and she declared a few seconds later, "Hey, my headache is gone!" A person with a living experience is not a the mercy of a man with an intellectual arguement. God did not send Jesus into the earth to suffer and die the way He did, just to pull back on his mercy a few years later. What kind of a 'Loving God' would take glory out of seeing His children sick? Any decent earthly father would gladly take the place of his child on the sick bed. What are you saying, our heavenly Father loves us less than our earthly one? You need to get a revelation of the Love of God! If God gave us Jesus, what would He possibly hold back from us? Dan   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 985 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 9:53 am:        Stabi, For a better explanation look for the book, "We've Been Robbed", by Wilfred Meloon. Wilfred Meloon was a Baptist that received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, (not that Meloon believed that all need to speak in tongues to be B. in the H.S.). Meloon presents a clear case against "dispensationalism." In the book Meloon asks his Baptist Pastor friend where it says that Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased for today and his friend actually turned to Acts 2 and starting reading Scofield reference notes. His Baptist friend had put Scofield equivalent with God's Holy Word! What really gets me going about Baptist is that they stand by the Word of God until one starts talking about Dispensationalism, specifically the teaching of the cessation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit after the Apostolic Age. The Baptist just goes to one word in 1 Cor. 13 regarding "perfect," but the Word of God doesn't say that interpretation. Ryrie and Mac Arthur even do not agree with the interpretation that the word "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13 is saying that regarding the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, read what they say about the pause "perfect" word button if you don't believe me. It is nothing but hogwash! It is neither Scripturally supportable, (in the slightest), nor even remotely Historically, (!!!), supportable. It is a bunch of lies from Satan. It is excuses from men as to the reason why they have lost their faith and no longer practice the power of the Holy Spirit. They have a form of godliness but have denied the power thereof! Read the Words by Jesus I quoted above, never throw His Words out, nor Acts, or any Chapters of 1 Corinthians. Erich   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 986 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 10:04 am:        Dan was nicer than I, he seems like a nice guy. I'm keeping my post...I hardly ever see miracles, and I am not going to let any false teaching, "like dispensationalism," take away the few miracles that I see once in a while! Hey! If John Mac Arthur is correct that all Charismatics and Pentecostals that speak in tongues have demons, and if you take away the power of the Holy Spirit, how are you going to cast the demons out of all of us? I rebuke the false teaching of dispensationalism in the name of the Lord God Jesus Christ!   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 963 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.72 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 10:30 am:        see-eastline and that's what i mean about the sorry state of christianity today-the demons behind everydoor-the emotionlism-the bickering over is tongues right for today-the faith movement preachers with crazy hairdos- the focus about big churches and fancy foyers-if you'd focus on love and compassion and caring about lost souls maybe it would be in a better place it is today.. but it's something I want no part of   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 98 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 10:42 am:        I dont think I have ever listened to John MacArthur in my life, I was given a Scofield study bible by my parents about 19 years ago, but I honestly can never remember reading his notes on Acts Chap.2, I dont use the Scofield anymore, bought a Ryrie once, used it for 2 months and shelved it, never read his notes on gifts either. I have absolutely no idea what dispensationalist really means, but I have a feeling if I had a chance to meet C.I. Scofield and we got to talking that when we got around to the rapture he would say the same thing to me that you are saying to me about this healing/miracles business. See the church has been lied to, told nothing bad can happen if their faith is strong, told they will be raptured away someday, the stuff fairy tales are made of. The church isnt going anywhere-persecution will be the refiner of the church, it is what will test us and our ability to truly rely on our deliverer-Jesus Christ. I believe the Holy Spirit has illuminated to me clearly Gods word, but I also know I am a work in progress, thank God he loves me enough to work on me! Stabi   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 967 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.72 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 10:46 am:        beautifully put "THE STUFF FAIRYTALES ARE MADE OF"!!!!   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 99 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 10:50 am:        DPike-What would you tell a Christian who has a terminal disease and isnt being healed? You cite a couple cases of people being made well by laying on of your hands, have you ever laid your hands on a Christian and had them to remain in their sick state-honestly? I do not deny the power of God, its mans ignorance that I deny, I clearly stated above that God has the power to heal anyone at anytime. I gave scriptural reference to people even the Apostles could not heal and no one commented on it, go figure. Stabi   stabidak (stabidak) Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 100 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 11:07 am:        The same disciples who had this POWER to heal people instataneously-11 of the 12 died horrific deaths, persecuted, murdered for their belief in Jesus Christ, doesnt that poke a hole in the health, wealth and prosperity gospel, did James not have enough faith to save himself? What about Paul-was his faith lacking? Or Peter? I could go on and on. Stabi   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 971 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.72 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 11:11 am:        Dpike it too am interested in knowing what you might tell a person who has terminal cancer and believed with full faith and trust that God would heal them-and he didn't- what you say to their family so to speak-I'm just inquiring..   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:41 pm:        I woke up this morning and to my amazement, there was no sun. I demanded the sun to return to the sky and within a few minutes, it happened – light. I’m a miracle worker and I now have proof. I am telling you this is true so it is true. rachelengland – really, how did you break those bonds? What happened to open up your eyes? I never realized one’s beliefs can create such a tight stranglehold and I can’t hardly believe what people will fall for.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 974 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.143 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:58 pm:        it took a family members death ba to break those bonds-these ideas were instilled in me from childhood-it is amazing what people will fall for - many of them are looking for great wonders when it's like you said the great wonders are right in front of our eyes -the sun- the moon the wind- the birth of a child -all beautiful miracles but somewhere along the way it wasn't enough-we wanted more healings,speaking in tongues,driving out devils you have no idea the guilt I carried for years believing somehow I was at fault for this death because my belief was that od the evangelicals my hands tremble now as I tell you this- but now I realize I was just a girl who didn't know any better-now I'm in a field where i can help others and it soothes me brings me healing-it's in humane to teach people such falsehoods and I will fight till the end to make sure the truth is heard-we've got to use the mind we were given and live in the real world...   stabidak (stabidak) Intermediate Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 103 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 1:03 pm:        Yeah and every time I opened my mouth and said "that makes me sick", within hours I was literally sick-my words contain power! My great grandmother died at 97 yrs of age, for the last 28 or so years every time I seen her and asked her how she was doing she would rattle off some disease she was sure she had, the preacher at our church was constantly telling her to quit speaking undoubt before it comes to pass, we always went away getting a great laugh out of this. Our church is a good study, we have about 80 or so on Sunday mornings and we are split pretty much evenly between old-school Baptists and the new age Charismatic/Pentecostals. Our pastor is very cautious of the Charismatic/Pentecostals though, even if he is one himself he is scared of what will happen should someone 'counterfeit', lol, speaking in tongues. He doesnt push that near as hard as he pushes the 'everyone can be healed if they will just believe they can' mumbo jumbo. In the last 10 years we have had 7 Christians go home of some form of cancer, including my Grandfather, they all did what Gods word said to do, all were anointed with oil, all had hands laid on and were prayed over, they were told to go away believing in their healings and they would be healed. That is not faith in Christ, that is FAITH in ones own FAITH. My Grandfather said if he is healed fine, if not he gets the ultimate eternal healing and that is what he looked forward to more than anything, I watched him die peacefully, he smiled and he winked as his breath drew more and more shallow and he taught me what real FAITH is. Gods will be done, not mine. Stabi   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 978 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.143 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 1:32 pm:        ba thanks for asking -this stabi keeps writing on top of me- he has a mission I guess-we just need to stay grounded-are you still struggling with that one situation we discussed a bit back   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 1:56 pm:        rachel: Yes, everything seems to get better for a number of days and then bang, right back where it all started. The stranglehold is incredible. She considers herself to be a Christian, and to her that means she can only attend a Fundamentalist Baptist church with a very literal interpretation, not unlike some of the crackpots we have seen on some of these threads. Before we married she said she could only marry a Christian but I guess I didn’t know what that meant. I new other Baptists and they seemed reasonable, but I guess they weren’t literal fundamentalists. I’m trying to find a counselor for us, but this is difficult because according to her, all counselors, unless they are connected to her church, are most likely satanic. I think we need a counselor who has experienced people with differing faith beliefs and I don’t see how that could happen if they come right out of the church. Believe it or not, I feel we are still very much in love but we also know we have serious issues. An unusual history which I don’t want to discuss with the whole world, and unique circumstances brought us together, otherwise it could have never happened. Thanks for letting me vent a little.   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 1:58 pm:        Oh rachel rachel rachel You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Do you really want to know Biblically why not all people see the manifestation of healing and answers to prayer? This is not a small subject but can be answered clearly ONLY not in a short answer. Yours and others lack of Biblical knowledge is showing again...but thats ok as long as you are sincere that you are truly inquiring. Here is a small taste on that subject of Why not all people see the manifestation of healing and also answers to their prayers? First EVEN Jesus Himself was hindered with healing because of others "UN" belief. You can have enough faith but unbelief and doubt present at the same time hinders ones faith and answer to prayer. Look at what happened to Jesus. Matthew 13:58 "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief Notice it was "because of their unbelief." Mark 6 1And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. 5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6And he marvelled "because of their unbelief." Matthew 17 "And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, 15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. 16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your "unbelief": for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine "unbelief." Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their 'UNbelief' and 'HARDNESS of heart', because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Faith was not the only problem unbelief was also. Unbelief can hinder your faith at the same time you pray in faith. There are ways to get rid of unbelief and its hinderances. Even Jesus was hindered by others unbelief. There are different types of unbelief. One is lack of knowledge. Another is wrong believing wrong teaching. Another is looking at the problem and not the solution magnifying the problem above Gods power. There are only two times recorded in the Bible when Jesus marveled at anything. Once He marveled at the people’s great unbelief (Mark 6:6), and in Matthew 8:10 He marveled at a Gentile soldier’s great faith. A faith that made Jesus marvel is worth examining. What was different about it? The number one difference was what the centurion said, “But speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it]” (Matt. 8:8-9). The centurion had a faith that was in God’s Word alone. He didn’t have to have Jesus come to his house and wave His hand over the sick servant. If Jesus would just give him a word, that was all he needed. Contrast this centurion’s faith with the little faith of Thomas, who was one of Jesus’ twelve disciples. The first time the risen Christ appeared to His disciples, Thomas wasn’t present. The other ten disciples told Thomas that Jesus was resurrected, but it was eight more days before Jesus appeared to His disciples with Thomas present. “But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25). Jesus walked up to Thomas and told him to put his finger into the print of the nails and thrust his hand into Jesus’ side and to not be faithless but believing. Thomas fell on his knees and confessed Jesus as his Lord and God. “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed” (John 20:29). Jesus placed a greater blessing on those who believe without seeing than those who believe because they have seen. In other words, there is a greater anointing on believing the Word than believing signs and wonders All of us have had experiences where it didn't look like our prayers were answered. But is that really what happened? The Bible says in Matthew 7:7, "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be given unto you." Is that true? Jesus goes on to say "for EVERYONE who asks receives, seeks finds and knocks the door is opened"... Well, many people say it couldn't mean what it appears to say, because they can cite experiences where they asked for something and didn't receive. But you've got to make the decision stated in Romans 3:4, "to let God be true, and every man (or in this case, every circumstance) a liar." God's Word is true...not our experiences. This is one of the reasons so much doctrinal division has come about. The Word is clear in its doctrine, but when someone tries the Word and doesn't see the promised results, rather than admit that they could have failed, they say something like "that must have passed away with the apostles," or "it must not have been God's will," etc. God is not the one who failed to answer, but rather we are the ones who have failed to receive. What actually happens when we ask in prayer is that God moves immediately and gives us the answer in our spirit. We are responsible for believing that, and acting accordingly to bring the answer into the physical world. God is a spirit (John 4:24) and He always supplies our answer to our spirit man. Through faith we then give physical substance (Hebrews 11:1) to what God has done. We are like a spiritual transformer. Spiritual power has to be converted to physical power just as radio signals have to be converted into frequencies audible to our physical ear. You don't hear the actual signal broadcast by the radio station, but rather a signal that has been picked up by a receiver and translated into an audible sound. For a person to say that there aren't any radio signals where they are, just because they cannot hear them, is not true. They are there, but they are on a higher frequency that the human ear can hear. They have to be "demodulated" into a lower frequency which we can hear. This is the way our answers to prayer come. God moves in the spirit world and gives us our answer by faith and we convert it into a physical reality through our actions. That is not to say that we are the one who produced the answer by our own power. It is God who works the miracles, but they do come through us. Without Him, we can do nothing, but he has made us joint heirs together with Christ so that he does nothing without us. Ephesians 3:20 says, "Now unto Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKETH IN US." We have a part to play in receiving from God. Ignorance of this has been our greatest problem. Now you can understand much more clearly what Mark 11:24 means, "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." You receive in your spirit by faith immediately, and it shall come to pass in the physical later. It may be one minute, one day, or one year, but you cannot waiver in your belief that God has already answered your prayer. The time that it takes for God's answer to be manifest in the physical is dependent upon many things, but it is not God who determines that. God answers immediately. Remember, it says you must believe that you receive WHEN YOU PRAY. God isn't asking you to believe something that isn't true. You do receive instantly in your spirit, then it is manifest in the physical later. An example of this is in Daniel 9 and 10. In chapter 9, Daniel prayed a prayer, and while he was still praying, his answer to prayer came in the form of Gabriel giving him "skill and understanding" in the thing he desired. That's a quick answer to prayer, but in verse 23, Gabriel says that God had sent him forth at the beginning of his prayer. God moved instantly, but it took about 3 minutes for the answer to appear in the physical realm. In Daniel chapter 10, he prayed another prayer, and his answer took three full weeks to manifest. What a difference! Most people would say, "I wonder why God answered that first prayer in three minutes, and the second prayer took three weeks. But in Daniel 10:12, we find that God answered the second prayer instantly too. Praise God! The Lord was not the variable. In this case it was a demonic force, "the prince of the kingdom of Persia," that had hindered the answer to Daniel's prayer. Whether it be satan, or people's wills, or unbelief, or any of a number of other possible hindrances, it's important that you know that it's not God who seems so unpredictable (Psalm 102:27, Malachi 3:6). In fact, this is a fundamental truth that you must be established in before you can even begin to do anything about speeding up the answer to your prayer. If you have prayed a prayer in line with God's Word, God answers it immediately (1 Jn. 5:14-15; Dan. 9, 10). If you understand that, then you are ready to begin releasing your faith over bringing that answer into complete manifestation.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 980 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.143 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 2:07 pm:        ba my best wishes for you-i understand the frustration that's why i was straight to the point when we first met here-you are intelligent and this will work itself for you in time according to the choices YOU make... Trins are you following me this is getting creepy(I'm just kidding-you said that to becca the other day and it caught my eye) but go read my political post you'll see why i struggle with your post-short attention span but the funny thing is I have a great memory)   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 46 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.5.193 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 2:07 pm:        Stabidak, Rachel If they had 'full faith' they would be healed. But I will say it again. No one knows the heart of someone else. Just because they say they have faith does not mean they do. They could be harboring mailice toward someone, unforgivness, holding on to a secret sin, etc... Here's one for ya, Some people regardless of what they say, do NOT want to be healed, they enjoy the worst of health. They get plenty of attention that way. As far as talking to the family, what could anyone say? Its a hard thing to deal with. My point is that God is not holding back. If there is a problem with faith, it is on our side not God's. Read Mark 11:24, and then take your argument to the Lord, He wrote it, not me. Dan   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 981 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.143 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 2:12 pm:        that's what i figured you'd say- i almost want to take away our friends status but I'll forgive you for you know not what you do....   dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 47 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.177.5.193 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 2:15 pm:        Rachel: I will say no more on this topic. I dont want to offend anyone. Thanks for your forgiveness Dan   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 989 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.154 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:06 pm:        dpike I'm sorry i'm not the factnet princess and you have a forum to speak your mind as much as anyone-my emotions shouldn't dictate a forum   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:10 pm:        rachel: I see you are forgiving those that make ridiculous remarks - you are more forgiving than I - but I know, sometimes joking is about all we could do. Screwballs and nutcakes run wild through these threads and I believe this fundamentalism has the potential to destroy our wonderful country (I think you are from the USA). It is already affecting some of our politicians’ horrible decisions. Remember the astrology in the Regan Admin? I think that is about the time this fantasy movement really started going over the deep end. And how about GW’s response when he was asked if he talked to his father about decisions – his response, “I talk with a higher authority” !!! I for one don’t believe he is telling the truth in his born again attitude - Seems too superficial. I saw a headline in a paper that does a lot of satire which said: “Voice of God revealed to be Cheney on intercom” picture had GW sitting in the oval office. Pretty funny I thought – maybe too funny!   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 990 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.154 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:15 pm:        and trinsheaven i read your post your condesending attitude doesn't work with me I don't have a lack of scriptural knowledge but you however have a lack of compassion and class   justlittleolme (justlittleolme) New member Username: justlittleolme Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.164.29.93 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:38 pm:        AMEN Rachel!!!! Trsrin, I am not unlearned in scripture. I think that you have a great ability to write, and probably love to see the manifestaion of your own words on paper. It is really to bad that the level of spiritual piousness and self-righteousness totally drowns out any truth you may have to offer.. I have to say, It makes me embarrassed to say I am a christian when I come into some of these threads and read how people like you rattle on like you are more hell bent on being right and exalting your own wisdom over sharing the truth in love so that those seeking something more might benifit from your learning.. Please, I know that this might be offensive to you, but trust me that is not my intention. I really think you have something to offer if you only considered the hearts of those who might be reading instead of an attitude of "I am right and You are wrong" That kind of writing will do no one any good.. Be blessed!   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 991 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.154 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:45 pm:        justlittleome-thank-you a perfect way to end my day on factnet-blizzards up north where i am so i stay tucked inside i keep the computer and tv on and go between the two- sometime I feel like I'm up against a brick wall and then someone comes to save the day take care..don't be ashamed of being a christian your the right kind-   justlittleolme (justlittleolme) New member Username: justlittleolme Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.164.29.93 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:46 pm:        Ba2004 I used to work for the President. I worked for him when he was governor of Texas and I worked for him from 2001-2003 in Washington. I can tell you that he is a man that fears God. Only God knows his heart, but I have seen the fruit of his personal life up close and personal. He is not God and he most definately capable of mistakes. Stick to judging his politics and leave his faith out of it. Only ignorant people pretend to be experts on things they know nothing about..   rachelengland (rachelengland) Advanced Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 993 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.154 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 4:54 pm:        Ba-i didn't see your post-forgive, joke it gets you thru- if we spend our life harboring hate it slows us down-your not a soldier fighting a lonely battle many have fought it and they may be the best ones to help maybe we should start a national support group there is nothing ignorant about ba2004 truly a precious guy whose learning as he goes along this road of fundamentalism- stay in love it helps you see past the faults....take care rachelengland   stabidak (stabidak) Intermediate Member Username: stabidak Post Number: 108 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.119.124.1 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 5:26 pm:        I read an awesome Book about Bush called 'The faith of George W Bush written by Stephen Mansfield and it really goes along way to give you a complete picture of Bush the man and Bush the sinner. I believe George W Bush truly repented of his sins, just like we all have to do, doesnt make him perfect, but perfect in Christ. Stabi   belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 228 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.144.7.22 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 6:50 am:        Dear friends, The 53rd Chapter Of Isaiah is the foundational prophecy of the finished work on the Cross. The Word of God is the only manual God has put His approval on. There is no other text that we can draw from, which is attested by heaven's seal. When we come to the Word there are many things we need to bury: our opinions, human faith, our physical senses, and our experiences. Firstly, we all need to bury our opinions. I have said again and again in all my posts how important it is that we bury denominational doctrines, and our preconceived notions about God. The Holy Spirit will not teach unless you incline your ears to what He has to say about His Word. Secondly, we need to bury our human faith. The Word of God offers divine faith, the faith that comes as a gift from God. Faith comes by hearing , and hearing the Word of God. Human faith is not as strong and infallible as the faith God offers through His Word. We are all given a measure of faith when we are saved. But unless and until we use the faith given to us, the Lord will not measure more to us. When we use the faith that comes from the Word, God pours in more faith into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Each time He sheds the faith of God in your heart, that faith will be tested. And God won't give you more faith until and unless you go victoriously through that test. The Word strictly teaches against being guided by the soul, or the seat of our physical senses. The bible says, We walk by faith and not by our sight(physical sense). Faith and feelings have nothing in common. The couldn't even be the fiftieth cousins! If we were to be saved by feelings, none of us could be failed. Most of them time most of us 'feel' unsaved than saved. It is through faith we know we are saved. The same goes for sickness and disease, which I will deal in detail later. Never go by how you feel, but what faith has to say about your sickness. Lastly, as I said we need to bury our experiences. If there is any experience that is contrary to the Word, you need to discard it. I'm not telling you to be unreal. Don't get me wrong. Let me explain, if you have experienced some manifestation which is not in accordance to God's Word, then you must discard the experience. For example, in the charismatic wing there are many manifestations attributed to the Holy Spirit , which actually has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit and is not found in the Word. One such example is called "Holy Barking". In this manifestation people bark like dogs, and call it as the Holy Spirit. Another manifestation, I have personally not found in the Word is "holy laughter". I found this pretty out of order. The people were laughing while the preacher was preaching. I believe order must be maintained in the Church and the Church must be strictly according to the Word of God. Another example is letting experience judge God's Word. God's Word is clear that healing is for ALL. However many Christians draw from their own or others experiences and say it's not God's will for all to be healed. In gospels we find no portion where Jesus refused to heal someone who came to Him. The bible testifies that Jesus healed ALL who came to Him. That's good enough for me. However the bible does say that Jesus couldn't perform miracles in certain area because of unbelief of the people. God is limited when people have wrong beliefs. When I ask people if there is atleast one instant where God refused to heal someone. They show me Paul's thorn. However, Paul's thorn was NOT a sickness. I can expose that lie clearly if people wuld just consider the Word. There is more unbelief and wrong beliefs in most churches than ever before. No wonder God can't perform some spectacular miracles in some churches. However, there are those churches that would dare believe in miracles like the early church and they have results. I will deal with this topic later of whether it is God's will for all to be healed later. Sidharth   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1011 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.206 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 9:00 am:        well sid I'm sure we are all looking forward to your "ideas" on healing -but as you know we must all test the teachings-any many messages going forth today are false- they tickle peoples ears and they sound promising- we must make sure we aren't judging people because they don't get healed or healed in the way we as humans feel they should be- many people have their faith tested and strengthened through illness-they shouldn't be made to feel any less of christian because they aren't healed the way a human thinks they should be-God is so much bigger than us and our plans and he will do with our lives what is intended when we put our trust in him-   marta (marta) Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.14.203.252 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 9:18 am:        belong2jesus, You say we should "bury our opinions" ... and then you proceed to write a long post which seems to be filled with your opinions ... You have not backed up your thoughts with specific scriptures. For example, you say ... "When we use the faith that comes from the Word, God pours in more faith into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Each time He sheds the faith of God in your heart, that faith will be tested. And God won't give you more faith until and unless you go victoriously through that test." Please show what scriptures you are using to come to this conclusion. Just to be clear, I agree that we should base what we believe on what we know to be true ... and I believe the only absolute source of truth is the Bible .... therefore we should use the Bible as a type of ruler to determine if what we believe is true or not.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1014 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.5.206 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 9:36 am:        the only problem with using the bible as a ruler martha is that as humans we all the view the Bible through our own eyes everyone has an interpretation because we are individuals a scripture may say one thing to you and another to me-by his stripes you are healed may mean physical healing to sid but to me it may mean a spiritual healing- we will all have our opinions and in the end what matters is that you live your life as jesus did with compassion-not judging one because she or he doesn't receive the healing the way we thougt they should of- God is good he has a plan and a purpose and we can't use the scripture to try and change his plan-he's bigger than all our problems and questions-and if someone isn't healed it isn't because their confession was off or that they are weak in their faith..rachel   marta (marta) Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 47 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.14.203.252 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 10:34 am:        the only problem with using the bible as a ruler martha is that as humans we all the view the Bible through our own eyes everyone has an interpretation because we are individuals a scripture may say one thing to you and another to me That's why we need the Holy Spirit to help us to understand it correctly. The fact that we don't always interpret scripture correctly doesn't make scripture any less true. I don't believe that we should be quick to judge those who are suffering with sickness. Remember when the disciples asked Jesus why the man was born blind? They quickly assumed it was either because of his sins or his parents sins ... and Jesus assured them that neither was the case. I also don't believe we should be quick to judge why someone has not received their healing from God. Just because someone did not receive their healing doesn't automatically mean that it's God's will for that person to be sick. In all things we need to continue to study the Bible and seek understanding from the Holy Spirit.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1020 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.252 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 4:46 pm:        Yes and i appreciated your examples-but again we are individuals and will still see things in our own way and that's okay-we'll all get the answers one day-you will all have to understand I lost a loved one who truly put her faith,hope and trust in the healing power of jesus Christ her life was right before god and she wasn't healed- no fault to her for her understanding of the scripture was solid as was her relationship with the Lord-I used to believe God wanted to heal everyone know I believe he does what he wants not always what we want.....   marta (marta) Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.14.203.252 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 8:53 am:        I'm very sorry for your loss. I know it's hard to understand why something like that happens and I admit I don't have all the answers. I hope you find comfort in knowing that her trust was in Jesus and that she will spend eternity with Him.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1054 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 10:32 am:        thank-you marta   arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 826 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 12:00 pm:        i lost my wife through kidney failure caused by diabeties. she was a GODly woman. she served GOD mnay years and is remembered as very good CHRISTIAN. she did not get healed. she passed away. we prayed for her she did not get healed. was her faith weak??? did we not have faith??? GOD took her for a reason and a purpose. she had fufilled her duty here and it was time to go. GOD was N0T.. a failure NO he answered her prayer and ours by taking her and then or rather now she has complete healing. GOD is still the HEALER.   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 204 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 12:13 pm:        It is sad to fight disease and lose a loved one. We understand and know that at least as Paul said in the epistles "To live is Christ but to die is gain" We cease from the fight in heaven. It is important to know why so as to not lose the battle next time and not to be deceived. God is not the one who did not answer and heal. There are clear Biblical reasons stated why this happens and why we do not see the physical manifestations of healing and our prayers. WE can't blame God. We miss it but God never misses it. WE lack knowledge but God will show us if we ask. "The thief satan comes ONLY to steal kill and destroy, Jesus came to give you life and that life more abundantly" Do you really want to know Biblically why not all people see the manifestation of healing and answers to prayer? This is not a small subject but can be answered clearly ONLY not in a short answer. A lack of Biblical knowledge is the problem again...but thats ok as long as we are sincerely seeking asking and desiring to know. Here is a small taste on that subject of: Why not all people see the manifestation of healing and also answers to their prayers? First EVEN Jesus Himself was hindered with healing because of others "UN" belief. You can have enough faith but unbelief and doubt present at the same time hinders ones faith and answer to prayer. Look at what happened to Jesus. Matthew 13:58 "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief Notice it was "because of their unbelief." Mark 6 1And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. 5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6And he marvelled "because of their unbelief." Matthew 17 "And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, 15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. 16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your "unbelief": for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine "unbelief." Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their 'UNbelief' and 'HARDNESS of heart', because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Faith was not the only problem UNBELIEF was also. 'Unbelief' hinders your faith at the same time you pray in faith. It hindered even Jesus. There are ways we get unbelief and ways to get rid of unbelief and its hinderances. Even Jesus was also hindered by others unbelief. There are different types of unbelief. # One is lack of knowledge. # Another is wrong believing wrong teaching. # Another is looking at the problem and not the solution magnifying the problem above Gods power. There are only two times recorded in the Bible when Jesus marveled at anything. Once He marveled at the people’s great UNBELIEF (Mark 6:6), and in Matthew 8:10 He marveled at a Gentile soldier’s great faith. A faith that made Jesus marvel is worth examining. What was different about it? The number one difference was what the centurion said, “But speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it” (Matt. 8:8-9). The centurion had a faith that was in God’s Word alone. He didn’t have to have Jesus come to his house and wave His hand over the sick servant. If Jesus would just give him a word, that was all he needed. Contrast this centurion’s faith with the little faith of Thomas, who was one of Jesus’ twelve disciples. The first time the risen Christ appeared to His disciples, Thomas wasn’t present. The other ten disciples told Thomas that Jesus was resurrected, but it was eight more days before Jesus appeared to His disciples with Thomas present. “But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25). Jesus walked up to Thomas and told him to put his finger into the print of the nails and thrust his hand into Jesus’ side and to not be faithless but believing. Thomas fell on his knees and confessed Jesus as his Lord and God. “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed” (John 20:29). Jesus placed a greater blessing on those who believe without seeing than those who believe because they have seen. In other words, there is a greater anointing on believing the Word than believing signs and wonders All of us have had experiences where it didn't look like our prayers were answered. But is that really what happened? The Bible says in Matthew 7:7, "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be given unto you." Is that true? Jesus goes on to say "for EVERYONE who asks receives, seeks finds and knocks the door is opened"... Well, many people say it couldn't mean what it appears to say, because they can cite experiences where they asked for something and didn't receive. But you've got to make the decision stated in Romans 3:4, "to let God be true, and every man (or in this case, every circumstance) a liar." God's Word is true...not our experiences. This is one of the reasons so much doctrinal division has come about. The Word is clear in its doctrine, but when someone tries the Word and doesn't see the promised results, rather than admit that they could have failed, they say something like "that must have passed away with the apostles," or "it must not have been God's will," etc. God is not the one who failed to answer, but rather we are the ones who have failed to receive. What actually happens when we ask in prayer is that God moves immediately and gives us the answer in our spirit. We are responsible for believing that, and acting accordingly to bring the answer into the physical world. God is a spirit (John 4:24) and He always supplies our answer to our spirit man. Through faith we then give physical substance (Hebrews 11:1) to what God has done. We are like a spiritual transformer. Spiritual power has to be converted to physical power just as radio signals have to be converted into frequencies audible to our physical ear. You don't hear the actual signal broadcast by the radio station, but rather a signal that has been picked up by a receiver and translated into an audible sound. For a person to say that there aren't any radio signals where they are, just because they cannot hear them, is not true. They are there, but they are on a higher frequency that the human ear can hear. They have to be "demodulated" into a lower frequency which we can hear. This is the way our answers to prayer come. God moves in the spirit world and gives us our answer by faith and we convert it into a physical reality through our actions. That is not to say that we are the one who produced the answer by our own power. It is God who works the miracles, but they do come through us. Without Him, we can do nothing, but he has made us joint heirs together with Christ so that he does nothing without us. Ephesians 3:20 says, "Now unto Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKETH IN US." We have a part to play in receiving from God. Ignorance of this has been our greatest problem. Now you can understand much more clearly what Mark 11:24 means, "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." You receive in your spirit by faith immediately, and it shall come to pass in the physical later. It may be one minute, one day, or one year, but you cannot waiver in your belief that God has already answered your prayer. The time that it takes for God's answer to be manifest in the physical is dependent upon many things, but it is not God who determines that. God answers immediately. Remember, it says you must believe that you receive WHEN YOU PRAY. God isn't asking you to believe something that isn't true. You do receive instantly in your spirit, then it is manifest in the physical later. An example of this is in Daniel 9 and 10. In chapter 9, Daniel prayed a prayer, and while he was still praying, his answer to prayer came in the form of Gabriel giving him "skill and understanding" in the thing he desired. That's a quick answer to prayer, but in verse 23, Gabriel says that God had sent him forth at the beginning of his prayer. God moved instantly, but it took about 3 minutes for the answer to appear in the physical realm. In Daniel chapter 10, he prayed another prayer, and his answer took three full weeks to manifest. What a difference! Most people would say, "I wonder why God answered that first prayer in three minutes, and the second prayer took three weeks. But in Daniel 10:12, we find that God answered the second prayer instantly too. Praise God! The Lord was not the variable. In this case it was a demonic force, "the prince of the kingdom of Persia," that had hindered the answer to Daniel's prayer. "Gods will be done on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN" No sickness in heaven, no poverty in heaven, no physical death in heaven, no spiritual death in heaven, no evil in heaven. There is a 'deceiver' satan still around to those who "lack knowledge" "seeking whom he can trick and devour". Eph 6 There is an evil still here on earth to take authority over using "the name of Jesus." God has need of no ones help in heaven. God does not kill nor take anyone to heaven God receives his own into heaven. God does no evil. James 1 A"Let NO MAN SAY God uses evil as his tool, or is the author of evil things"...."For God sends trials to no one with evil neither can he be tried or tempted with evil" Whether it be satan, or people's wills, or unbelief, or any of a number of other possible hindrances, it's important that you know that it's not God who seems so unpredictable (Psalm 102:27, Malachi 3:6). James 1 In fact, this is a fundamental truth that you must be established in before you can even begin to do anything about speeding up the answer to your prayer. If you have prayed a prayer in line with God's Word, God answers it immediately (1 Jn. 5:14-15; Dan. 9, 10). If you understand that, then you are ready to begin releasing your faith over bringing that answer into complete manifestation.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1090 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 1:22 pm:        again trins it sounds like your saying people need to be perfect in order to be healed?   munchkin (munchkin) Advanced Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 581 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 1:34 pm:        Yes and i appreciated your examples-but again we are individuals and will still see things in our own way and that's okay-we'll all get the answers one day-you will all have to understand I lost a loved one who truly put her faith,hope and trust in the healing power of jesus Christ her life was right before god and she wasn't healed- no fault to her for her understanding of the scripture was solid as was her relationship with the Lord-I used to believe God wanted to heal everyone know I believe he does what he wants not always what we want..... ************************************************** oh rachel. althoguh i am not christian, i do beleive that there is a spiritual positive force, some call that God, for me whether God exisits or not i call the Tao, others have other recognitions. the one thing (please to any fundementalists, this is not really the time to lecture me on religion, this is for rachels healing) that all positive spiritual religions, faiths, hold in common, is that sometimes our time to die comes, we all knwo one thing, that we are born we die, the spiritual stuff, is conjecture, but none of it cliams to halt physical death. the spiritual life will move on. i haven't shared this, i ask even those memebrs who havent' been kind to me before now to please respect this. a old friend of the family, 2yrs ago dies with cancer, he had been diagnosed as untreatable the year before, his moility was poor, he needed alot of care and support, i went through this with him, everystep of the way, right to the hospice, and his death bed. when he finally went, it was dead on the sroke of 1am, on the morning of the 10th june 2003, i felt the soul/spirit leave the body, on the last breathe, and wait in the corner of the room, as if saying one lst goodbye, before it faded a minute later. this convinces me more than anything else that there is a positive spirit we all go to when we pass. how this happens and where it goes, is conjecture, and opinion. but it is natural, and accpeted, in all religions, and spiritual paths (genuine ones). rachel i hope you can find peace and acceptance for loosing your mum. grief counceling can be a big help to allow you to do this. it is also a helo to allow yourself doubt in the spiritual, allow your questions, this is part of the grieving and healing process. if there is a God he will understand this. grieve first, that way your mind and emotions are clearer, and les muddled, whcih will allow you the space to find your spiritual way, whichever that is. beccax   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1091 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 2:05 pm:        thank you becca i find peace each day-and i appreciate your understanding-i do deal with anger,doubt and dismay-and my faith is at a real crossroads right now-I never spoke of my disbelief until i came to this forum so even though factnet can be full of nuts somewhere in the midst you find lovely people like you-rachel   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 205 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 2:23 pm:        no rachel, I am not saying you need to be perfect at all. No one needs to be perfect to come to God or to receive from God. That is the whole point. God is not prejudice or bias as the Bible states "God is not a respecter of persons"...but. There is according to the Bible a correct and better way to pray. A right way and a wrong way. The good news is that it is simple. You just have to pray to get results, according to spiritual principles as explained and stated by Jesus in Mark 11:23 and elsewher(It says you must believe that you receive WHEN YOU PRAY.) WE need to believe WHEN WE PRAY" "When we pray" not wait until we see it. WE also need to first get rid of the hindrances of doubt and UNBELIEF(as the post references the above scriptures) so then faith makes the power connection and doesn't hinder you from seeing a result. HEbrews 11:1 is the Biblical definition of faith. "NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things we hope for, being the proof of things we do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]. Faith and our spirit are for using and perceiving in the spiritual realm. We are like a spiritual transformer. Spiritual power has to be converted to physical power just as radio signals have to be converted into frequencies audible to our physical ear. You don't see or hear the actual signal broadcast by the radio station, but rather a signal that has been picked up by a receiver and translated into an audible sound. For a person to say that there aren't any radio signals where they are, just because they cannot hear them, is not true. They are there, but they are on a higher frequency that the human ear can hear. They have to be "demodulated" into a lower frequency which we can hear. This is the way our answers to prayer come. God moves in the spirit world and gives us our answer by faith and we convert it into a physical reality through our actions. That is not to say that we are the one who produced the answer by our own power. It is God who works the miracles, but they do come through us. Without Him, we can do nothing, but he has made us joint-heirs together with Christ so that he does nothing without us. Ephesians 3:20 says, "Now unto Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKETH IN US." We have a part to play in receiving from God. Ignorance of this has been our greatest problem. Now you can understand much more clearly what Mark 11:24 means, "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." You receive in your spirit by faith immediately, and it shall come to pass in the physical later. It may be one minute, one day, or one year, but you cannot waiver in your belief that God has already answered your prayer. The time that it takes for God's answer to be manifest in the physical is dependent upon many things, but it is not God who determines that. God answers immediately. Remember, it says you must believe that you receive 'WHEN YOU PRAY'. God isn't asking you to believe something that isn't true. You do receive instantly in your spirit, then it is manifest in the physical later. An example of this is in Daniel 9 and 10. In chapter 9, Daniel prayed a prayer, and while he was still praying, his answer to prayer came in the form of Gabriel giving him "skill and understanding" in the thing he desired. That's a quick answer to prayer, but in verse 23, Gabriel says that God had sent him forth at the beginning of his prayer. God moved instantly, but it took about 3 minutes for the answer to appear in the physical realm. In Daniel chapter 10, he prayed another prayer, and his answer took three full weeks to manifest. What a difference! Most people would say, "I wonder why God answered that first prayer in three minutes, and the second prayer took three weeks. But in Daniel 10:12, we find that God answered the second prayer instantly too. The angel tells Daniel that God answered immediately but there was a hindrance. Satan. The Lord was not the variable. In this case it was a demonic force, "the prince of the kingdom of Persia," that had hindered the answer to Daniel's prayer. We have a part to play in receiving from God. Ignorance of this has been our greatest problem. "We are destroyed For a lack of knowledge"   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1097 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 4:59 pm:        trins i know where your coming from heard it all before-know all the verses-know all the rhymes -none of have all the answers you heard me say it before-any way wiggelsworth was a different breed indeed and he was responsible for a lot of the faith movement preachers in the 70's and 80's who took his work out of context for their own gain P.S. liked your lesson on homosexuality on the politics forum another real winner..LOL-Rachel   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 9:21 am:        munchkin: Anyone who has held someone in their arms, someone who was emotionally close to them, or was holding their hand as they passed, understands what you said. I have had that happen to me on two occasions, the last time was with my first wife who also died of cancer. She was able to let go peacefully because of her faith. It was a beautiful death, if there ever could be such a thing. The 1st time was in a far away land and not so peaceful, I still have a difficult time even thinking about it. So, faith certainly rewards those at the moment of their death. I think I agree with you, this does not mean that God intervened or that more faith would have healed her. It does not mean that God took her away. To me, it only means that she got sick and died, as billions of others have done before. An explosion rips apart a comrade a few feet away– God did not aim the artillery away from me. A plane skids off the runway and kills a child in a car– God did not cause this; he does not cause every event to happen. Things just plain happen, go into a dangerous place or do risky things and you are more likely to be killed. Go into an environment that has dangerous chemicals or disease and you are more likely to get sick. And sometimes, it is simply the bad luck of the gene pool or being in wrong place at the wrong time. But the belief that there is something to move on to is very satisfying. rachelengland: I too hope you have found peace. For me, those deaths caused loneliness, terrible loneliness. My new wife got me past that, but her fundamentalism is constantly trying to create blame; but their is no blame. According to them, God took these people from me for a purpose, and it probably was for me or because of something I have done. My new wife is very guilt stricken, for things that happened to her and her family that were not her fault. This fundamentalism causes me much stress, because I can’t just walk away from it. I am trying to get her to see the truth, and in time, I believe she will. Your stories are very helpful. Thank you both.   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1116 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 9:47 am:        you are so welcome and i understand that guilt but how can anyone believe such a good God would want us walking around feeling guilty about stuff all the time-he's in charge and what life brings about he knew it from the beginning-right? take care Ba and have a great holiday-never give up and thank-you again becca i was the only one home with mum when she passed-it wasn't so beautiful because she didn't want to go and hung on for days and days i would lay on the couch next to her and just wait for the last breath but I don't think she wanted to die in front of me i took a trip down to the basement for a moment and when i came up she was gone there's much going on in peoples minds when they are about to die -scientists say it's the mind playing games mixing up memories and shutting down-but who knows maybe it's just God moving them on - my darling father passed 2 years ago totally unexpected a rare genetic disease called systemic amyloidosis he just retired and was only 60- I loved them like crazy-I was the kid who would of rather gone out to dinner with her parents than party in cancun anyway thanks for letting me talk in the real world noone knows i carry an inch of grief- (Message edited by rachelengland on December 21, 2005)   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 208 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:30 am:        Wigglesworth among others had thousands of documented miracles and healings...that inspired thousands to receive Christ and be healed TL Osborne still alive today has seen millions even more in over 80 countries. I have seen and experienced miracles, healings, answers to prayer from knowing and doing the word. "Only doers of the word, those doing the word will be blessed in their deeds" "Jesus is the SAME yesterday today and forever." God still displays his power,healing and performing miracles daily through people today. God does the healing but we are the vessels he chooses to use "earthen vessels". "God searches the earth to and fro seeking for those he can show himself strong in" The "power that works within us" if we are in Christ includes the annointing power of God to heal. "Jesus is the SAME yesterday today and forever." "God sent His word and healed them". "The word of God is healing to all your flesh" "Even Jesus told the disciples when the complained of those casting out devils and healing not to stop those doing healing and good things in His name for any motive because they and others will judge the fruit and acknowledge Him and God." Gods unlimited power is available to anyone who chooses to. Only Doubt,UNBELIEF, and a lack of knowledge will hinder healing. Remove the unbelief and faith will work unhindered. Renew your mind 'Romans 12' and you will see "Gods good, perfect, and acceptable will come to pass in your life."   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:33 am:        Again, more guilt --- I think I have a bridge for sale!   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1121 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:37 am:        god help us all i try to post a touching post and trins follows me around and screws it up-trins take your bag of •••• and sell it somewhere else!!! (Message edited by rachelengland on December 21, 2005)   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 210 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 11:12 am:        rachel This thread is about wigglesworth and you posted some AGAIN "outrageous undocumented lies GENERALIZATIONS" about "Wigglesworth was responsible for a lot of the faith movement preachers in the 70's and 80's who took his work out of context for their own gain" This Simply not the truth. God still heals everyone in the spiritual realm who asks today. Gods will is to heal eveyone today. Whether they ask and whether they manifest healing from the spiritual realm to the physical is entirely up to them. The only thing stopping them is doubt, unbelief and a lack of knowledge. Jesus said "Ask and you will receive, Seek and you will find,...For EVERYONE WHO ASKS RECEIVES, seeks finds..." Matthew Was he a liar? You calling him a liar? Do you know more than Jesus? "Let the dead bury the dead" Jesus said "come and follow me". You don't know what Jesus said and you haven't experienced the healing power of God working through you speaking to the infirmity and evil spirit commanding it to leave in Jesus name. Jesus said " In MY NAME you will cast out devils, lay hands on the sick and they will recover" Mark 16' Jesus said " If you speak to this mountain(problem) command it to be removed it will obey you if you do not doubt in your heart" Mark 11 "Only doers of Gods word not forgetful hearers will be BLESSED" James Jesus said "those that hear but DO NOT DO HIS WORD are like those who build their lives (house) on sand no foundation and the storms of life come and great is the fall of it" "If you are ashamed of Jesus and doing His word He and the Father in heaven will be ashamed of you" Are you a wimp or a righteous Christian bold as a lion knowing there is more and wanting to see the unlimited power of God work? That is your decision. All Christians are called to the ministry of reconciling those to God (2Cor5) and fulfilling the Great Commission proclaimed commnanded by Jesus to "Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News, Lay Hands on the sick, Cast out Devils, and these signs shall follow the word proclaimed to them that believe." Mark 16   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 11:44 am:        Yes, a lot of people take God’s word out of context and try to promote their own biased and false agenda. The fundamentalists are doing it all the time. As long as they are stuck on the notion that the bible is 100% literally accurate even though it is written by man’s hand, they will continue read things that the lying scribes have added or translations/interpretations with an agenda. You have been warned about the lying scribes in various places in the bible. Those that can’t see past this are idolizing a book. They are placing a book above the word of God.   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 211 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 12:27 pm:        ba2004 "God puts his word magnified even above His own name" Psalm 138:2 Seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive,...for EVERYONE who asks receives, seeks finds and knocks and the door is opened to them" You are calling Jesus a liar? God inspired and directed the Bible. It is the other way a loving Father communicates along with His Holy Spirit. They are one and both agree. Even a loving earthly father would communicate and not want you kept in the dark. You can ask God for yourself He guarantees He will show you the truth. You don't get and answer because you don't sincerely ask. "Seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive,...for EVERYONE who asks receives, seeks finds and knocks and the door is opened to them" You are calling Jesus a liar We have already posted the reliability of the original texts and King James, amplified and literal english translation from the original Hebrew and Greek. Every principle in the Bible works without fail. It is easy to understand and accessible to everyone. God is accessble to everyone. You have said this redundant false statement before. Please finally get it and don't bore us again with it since it is false. We do not idolize a book. We idolize the power behind the book.   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 44 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 1:23 pm:        The Old Testament was copied over and over by the Scribes. In both Old Testament times and Christ's time, the Scribes were considered to be liars and corrupters of religion. Our bible came from the writings of the scribes but they didn’t remove everything or change everything so if we look carefully we can sometimes see the alterations. The alterations are visible by their lack of continuity with the rest of the text, and their subtle corruptions. Observation shows that the Old Testament is full of alterations. The scribes missed changing a few spots such as: Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, we have the law of the Lord'? Why, that has been changed into falsehood by the lying pen of the Scribes!" Even in the New Testament: Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Fundamentalists say there is not one error in the Bible, because it is God's word but Jesus and the prophets said it was corrupted by the scribes. I am sure fundamentalists will put blinders on and explain this away in their own way. But really, the scribes got too good of a deal in the bible, too good to be true. So how reliable is the text in the Old Testament? I think it is very reliable if you don’t idolize it and read for the concepts that are taught.   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 212 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 2:11 pm:        ba2004 AGAIN You have said this redundant false statement before. ARE YOU dislexic, ADD what? Get it once and for all time, and don't bore us again with it since it is false. We do not idolize a book! We idolize the power behind the book! God Integrity of the Bible Scripture explains scripture. and you only know a couple of scriptures out of the thousands in the Bible. You also don't realize how it was preserved under the strictist scrutiny. We have had this discussion before and you just lack a knowledge of the WHOLE BIBLE. Scripture explains scripture ........... and you lack knowledge of other scriptures that give you the answers. The Bible is fail safe...invulnerable without holes in it. It provides the answers to every question you make about it. The Bible is 99.9% the same as when written proven by discovery of earlier texts such as the Dead Sea scrolls. It was never EDITED only copied. Transcribers were meticulous to preserve and copy word for word THE ORIGINAL LETTERS AND TEXT down through the ages in the original languages. ..ancient Helenistic Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. How the Old Testament was Preserved -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is there an "inspired" order for the books of the Bible? WHO preserved the writings we call the Old Testament? HOW did they insure accurate copies of the Scriptures would be made? Did Jesus have anything to say about the validity of the Old Testament? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bible is without a doubt the most controversial book ever written. There are so many different opinions on what is contained in its pages. One person says, "The Bible is nothing but a book of Jewish fairy tales." Another person says, "I believe in the Bible and its message for me today." Even among professing Christians, it is not unusual to hear, "I believe God gave mankind a collection of writings, but I believe it is possible that man has corrupted these writings in some way." The person goes on to ask, "Why does the Bible contain the books that it does? Is it possible that some of the 66 books in the Bible really don't belong there? "On the other hand, is it possible that the Bible we use today is missing some books that God inspired to be written?" These are NOT improper questions. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know more about the accuracy and validity of Scripture. The Bible itself instructs us to "prove all things" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). The controversy over Biblical canon has not raged for decades or even hundreds of years. It has been with us for thousands of years. Let's briefly examine the preservation of the Old Testament Scriptures to see if we can determine whether or not the Bible that we place our trust in is correctly compiled. "Inspired" Order We should begin by asking if there is there an "inspired order" for the books of the Bible. There are those who say that there is. They say, "If you want to understand the books of the Bible, you must understand their proper order." They insist that the King James Bible has the books in the wrong order. People with this belief point out that it is wrong to take a book written by a certain author and change the order of the chapters. They say that one cannot take an introduction and put it at the end. They say one cannot take a conclusion and put it in the middle. And, they say that this is exactly what has happened to the Bible---that the books are out of order and this mixup causes us to understand the Scriptures incorrectly. Please note that below we have summarized what many believe to be the "inspired order" of the books of the Bible. The summary is titled "The Sevenfold Division of the Bible." It is important to note that we simply cannot prove the "correct" order of the books of the Bible. The Bible itself does not tell us what order, if any, should be followed. THE SEVENFOLD DIVISION OF THE BIBLE OLD TESTAMENT NEW TESTAMENT I. THE LAW Pentateuch Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy IV. GOSPELS Matthew Mark Luke John II. THE PROPHETS Former Prophets Joshua/Judges Samuel/Kings Latter Prophets Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel The Twelve V. ACTS III. THE WRITINGS Poetic Books Psalms Proverbs Job Festival Books Songs of Songs Ruth Lamentations Ecclesiastes Esther Restoration Books Daniel Ezra/Nehemiah I - II Chronicles VI. EPISTLES General Epistles James I Peter II Peter I John II John III John Jude Pauline Epistles Hebrews Romans I Corinthians II Corinthians Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians I Thessalonians II Thessalonians I Timothy II Timothy Titus Philemon VII. REVELATION But we do know that Jesus gave us an indication that the Old Testament was divided into three sections--the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms or Writings (Luke 24:44). In this passage, He was not only giving His stamp of approval to the Scriptures that were used by the Jews. He was also acknowledging that the Holy Scriptures had some type of order to their arrangement. They were not simply a random collection of loose books. How the Old Testament Was Preserved Skeptics have pointed out that the oldest extant version of the Old Testament is less than 1,500 years old. The skeptic looks at the manuscript and says, "The first books of the Bible were written hundreds and hundreds of years before this copy." He says, "All we have available to us is a copy of a copy of a copy, etc. After centuries and centuries of transcribing copies of copies of copies, there must be HUNDREDS of errors in the text of the Old Testament!" This point is well taken. The argument reminds one of the game where about twenty children sit, in a circle. The first one whispers a sentence into the ear of the second child. The second child whispers the same message into the ear of the third child. The message is whispered all the way around the circle. By the time it reaches the ear of the last child, it is usually a totally different message than what came out of the mouth of the first child. Bible skeptics say this is surely what has happened to the Bible as it was recopied over the centuries. The accurate preservation of the Bible should be a concern for all Christians. It is important to understand that the copying methods used in reproducing the Bible were computer-like in their accuracy. Notice the beginning of the history of biblical preservation: "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee" (Deuteronomy 31:24-26). Here we see the beginning of the sacred trust given to the Levites to safeguard the Scriptures. The "writings of words" referred to here are the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, also known as the Law or Pentateuch (Greek) or Torah (Hebrew). From that time forward, the religious leaders of Israel became the zealous guardians of the Scriptures. Later, after the Babylonian captivity of Judah, these Scriptures were practically worshipped as much as was the Creator Himself. It could be said that the love that the Jews had for the Law was tantamount to idolatry! They watched over these Sacred Writings more carefully than any other possession in the Holy Land. Joshua, Moses' successor, also instructed the Israelites to have a special concern for "all the words of the Law" (Joshua 8:35). He told the people to sit down as the Law was read to them. This reading probably took several days because the Torah was a lengthy volume. Many people assume that Paul wrote more of the Bible than any other servant of God. Actually, Paul wrote more books than anyone else, but Moses wrote more volume. Each of Moses' five books was much longer than any of Paul's smaller books. All in all, Moses wrote about three times as much material as Paul. In the time of Joshua, the entirety of the Torah was read to the children of Israel. A great reverence for the Scripture had developed within one generation after the Exodus. We also see that, the Levites were not the only ones involved in preserving the Scriptures. God knew that the day would come when His people would reject Him as their king and that they would insist on having a human king (Deuteronomy 17:14-15). But notice what God instructed the new king to do: "And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them" (verses 18-19). The kings of Israel not only had to study and obey the Law, they also had to write their own personal copies of that Law! The Rules of Copying Now, the result of this reverence was the creation of a system of copying which is nothing less than astounding. The Levites had to create a system of making new copies of the Bible as old copies wore out and had to be destroyed. They knew it would be easy to make a mistake in copying a new transcript, so here is what they did. They developed elaborate and meticulous RULES for transcribing. They decreed that when a person was making a new text, he had to copy the original page with such exactness that the number of words on a page could not be changed. If the original page had 288 words, then the page being copied had to have the same 288 words. Each line on a new page had to be the exact same as the line on the old page. If the first line on the original page had nine words, the first line on the copy page had to have nine words. After a page was copied, the number of letters on that page was counted and compared with the original. After a page was copied, each letter was counted and compared with the original. After a page was copied, someone would check to see what the middle letter was on the copy and the original. "A synagogue roll [remember that they did not have paper as we do today] must be written on the skins of clean animals, the length of each column must not extend less than 48 or more than 80 lines; the breadth must consist of 30 letters. No word or letter, not even a yod, must be written from memory... Between every consonant the space of a hair or thread must intervene, between every book three lines. Besides this the copyist must sit in full Jewish dress, and wash his whole body" (Hebrew Text of the Old Testament, Davidson). The scribes were not allowed to copy sentence for sentence or even word for word. They had to copy letter for letter. After a page was copied and checked by another, still a third person would check to see what the middle word was on the page. Then, when the whole book was finished, another would count the phrases. These are just a few examples of the great detail that went into ensuring the accuracy of the Scriptures. There were many more steps taken in the process. All of this could be characterized as a "fence to the Scriptures (Massorah) because it locked all words and letters in their places... It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, etc... All this ...for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss or misplacement of a single letter or word" (Bullinger, The Companion Bible). These men had no worry whatsoever that there might have been an error. For that reason, they felt no more need to keep their older copies than a data processing manager feels a need to keep his older printouts when he knows his current hard copies are accurate. The Role of the Scribes The ancient Israelites kept a copy of the Scriptures in the first Temple. They put it inside the Ark of the Covenant. This copy became known as "The Temple Scriptures." Even though the first temple was destroyed and the Jews were taken to Babylon, the Scriptures were preserved. In the Babylonian captivity, a group of Levites who became known as the Scribes painstakingly copied and disseminated the Scriptures to other Jews. One of the most important historical figures during this time was Ezra. He was not only a scribe, but the last of the Old Testament prophets. He probably wrote Chronicles and is said to have fixed the Old Testament canon around 400 B.C. After the Jews returned to Palestine, the Scribes continued to take an active part in preserving and distributing the Scriptures. When the second temple was built, another master copy was put in the Holy Place. By the time Jesus was born, the Scribes had become so obsessed with counting jots and tittles that they forgot the very messages that were in the sentences they were transcribing. Their obsession with detail caused Christ to say, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law--judgment, mercy, and faith" (Matthew 23:43). Even after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Scribes continued their work. They were eventually replaced by the Massoretes, who were in charge of preserving the Scriptures from approximately 500-1000 A.D. These new custodians of the Scriptures have left us the Masoretic text on which most modern translations are based. Has the Old Testament been accurately preserved for us today? Absolutely! Jack Finegan, a noted Bible scholar said, "It has been ...estimated that there are ...variations in hardly more than a 1000th part, of the text." This means the Old Testament is at least 99.9% true to the original! Do We Have the Right Books? Now, the question is asked, "All right. The books we have today have the same words that were written several thousand years ago. But how do we know these are the right books?" To find our answer, we begin by noting that we do not have to research all the way back to the nation of Israel, the original authors, and the preservers of the text. We only have to go back to the time of Jesus. If the Jews during the time of Christ's earthly ministry were using the wrong books, He would have mentioned it and the Gospel writers would have recorded it. But as we pointed out earlier, Luke 24:44 puts Jesus' stamp of approval on the Old Testament that was utilized by the Jews of His time. Jesus made many references to Old Testament events. He talked about the Creation epic and the Flood. He talked about, men such as Abel, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, and others. He talked about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ had no problem whatsoever with the Old Testament canon that existed in His time. Nor should we, since it was the very same canon that we have in most, modern translations! The Apocrypha And what about the Apocrypha? These books are part, of the Catholic Bible and a few other versions. The books include Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Judith, Tobit, and I & II Maccabees. There are 14 apocryphal books which some believe should be part of the Old Testament. Actually, there were hundreds of such books. The word "Apocrypha" comes from the Greek word meaning "secrets." Most of these books are mystery books and were written between 200-100 B.C. Tradition tells us that Ezra closed the Old Testament canon around 400 B.C. The apocryphal books were written AFTER Ezra's closing of the Old Testament. Virtually all of the Old Testament was written by Israelites who lived in Palestine. The Apocrypha, however, appears to have been written by Jews in Alexandria, Egypt. This city had a large Jewish colony before the birth of Jesus. Masoretic Text or Septuagint (LXX)? All modern Bibles are translated from either the Septuagint text or the Masoretic text. At this time, it is worthwhile to ask, "Which one is better?" The Septuagint Bible has an interesting if somewhat questionable history. It was prepared in Alexandria, home of the apocryphal writings. Supposedly, in the third century B.C., 72 Jewish scholars from Jerusalem went to Alexandria. In 72 days they translated the Old Testament into Greek, and their translation became known as the Septuagint or the LXX. It was probably originally known as the LXXII for the 72 scholars and 72 days, but this heading became abbreviated to LXX. When reading various versions of the Bible, you should remember that any version based on the LXX is a translation of a translation. For example, the Catholic Bible is translated from the Greek Septuagint, which was translated from the original Hebrew. Most other Bibles are direct translations from the original Masoretic text and are thus more reliable than those translated from the Septuagint. God's Word is True We can now see that God has preserved His written Word for us. Granted, no English translation is perfect. Each has been translated by imperfect men and contains very minor errors but few in the King James, Interlinear, Amplified, and Literal translations. But the original Hebrew Bible from which they are translated is virtually impeccable. For this reason, we should look at several translations when we have difficulty in understanding a particular verse. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 2:57 pm:        trsrinheaven: never have I ever insulted anyone, never. You will not find one single insult from me written anywhere, so why do you insult me? I'm not the one cutting and pasting, without reflecting. As to your last sentence - just because someone says in a book that they are telling the whole truth, does not make is so. Rat poison may be 99% grain but it is the 1% that does the damage. We should be very careful as we study the writings and views of any person, denomination or otherwise, including and especially the fundamentalists. After all, it was the fundamentalists that destroyed many of the Islamic societies. We need to continue to "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is good" and never be afraid to re-examine any doctrine we have been taught (mind control), regardless of who taught it. Your anger comes out when someone hits a point which you cannot defend. Nevertheless, I allow you the right to believe how you wish, without insulting. I don’t know where you are from but, my free right to believe and worship is in my Constitution, guaranteed by my government. I believe you would love to take those rights away from me so,I will not waste my time with those who cannot give me the same courtesy.   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 213 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 3:19 pm:        ba2004 I am not angry at you ba2 Answer me What faith or religion are you if any? You keep insultingly REPEATING beating a dead horse saying we "idolize a book." then you insultingly say "I think I have a bridge for sale" I told you we don't idolize a book we don't, we don't a half dozen times. READ this now don't miss it AGAIN. We idolize the POWER behind The Book! God. You still keep saying we idolize a book even when we correct you. You must have an affliction. I can only say you must be blind with "SELECTIVE READING" disease. you beg the question and ASSume what I would do or say. Don't lie, make false accusations, assume and put words in my mouth I did not say. When you assume you make and ••• out of you. I am not angry just love truth. Scripture explains scripture. and you only know a couple of scriptures out of the thousands in the Bible. You also don't realize how it was preserved under the strictist scrutiny. We have had this discussion before and you just lack a knowledge of the WHOLE BIBLE. Scripture explains scripture ........... and you lack knowledge of other scriptures that give you the answers. The Bible is fail safe...invulnerable without holes in it. It provides the answers to every question you make about it. The Bible is perfect without any contradiction or holes in it philosophically. I pray you will be healed of your "Selective Reading Disease".   ba2004 (ba2004) Junior Member Username: ba2004 Post Number: 47 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 165.189.17.115 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 4:20 pm:        Trsrinheaven: The American Heritage Dictionary – College Edition Idolize: 1. To regard with blind admiration or devotion. You said, “The Bible is fail safe...invulnerable without holes in it. It provides the answers to every question you make about it.” If that isn’t blind admiration, I don’t know what is. I am a Christian and many would consider me a saved Christian. From your posts, I would guess that you don’t like my interpretation and therefore probably don’t consider me saved. That is fine with me because I don’t have to be judged by you. I read the bible daily, but do not believe it literally; I very much believe in the general message. When I read, I don’t stop with KJV. I get other translations and am especially interested in the Jewish versions when I read the Old Testament. I got my best understanding about Old Testament interpretations by discussing it with a Rabbi. There are many discrepancies between the different versions which can change meaning dramatically. So I guess I would ask you, which version is the only true version? Don’t give me your 5 page cut and paste.   munchkin (munchkin) Advanced Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 612 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 6:56 pm:        trsrinheaven: never have I ever insulted anyone, never. You will not find one single insult from me written anywhere, so why do you insult me? ********************************************* ba2004, oh dear, sorry you are getting this as well. if you ever wish to chat, munchkin97@operamail.com hope you keep well. beccax   belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 229 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:21 pm:        Dear Rachel, In answer to your question. "When we use the faith that comes from the Word, God pours in more faith into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Each time He sheds the faith of God in your heart, that faith will be tested. And God won't give you more faith until and unless you go victoriously through that test." The very first verse I need to bring your attention to is Galatians 5:22, where you find the fruit of the Spirit. You must realize the Bible mentions them as 'fruit' and not 'fruits' of the Spirit. As the Holy Spirit was teaching me on this divine fruit, He caused me to compare 1 Corinthians 13 with Galatians 5:22, and to my amazement, I found there was only one fruit, and it was Love. All that followed love in Galatians 5:22, were attributes of love. God has placed faith as both a gift of the Spirit and as the fruit of the Spirit. The gift of faith is miraculous faith. However, to every man is given a measure of faith(Roman12:3b) I would ask you to compare 1 Cor 13 and Galatians 5:22 closely and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. Love is the fruit of the Spirit and all the others, i.e. joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, faith and so forth are attributes of divine love. The bible teaches that the Holy Spirit sheds abroad God's love within our hearts in Romans 5:5. Each time a person comes into the Presence of God, love is shed abroad within that persons heart. Due to lack of time, I stop here and pray you rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you. Yours in His love, Sidharth   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 991 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.232.204.62 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:38 pm:        Trsrinheaven has presented powerful Scriptures showing that the Lord Jesus Christ heals today. Dan and Trsrinheaven have posted a favorite passage of many that believe that God heals today. The following passage of Scripture is very powerful and one has to conclude that Jesus Christ is either stating the truth or not stating the truth: Mark 11:22-25 "Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Stabi, I know that you have experienced the extreme aspects of Pentecostalism, there are false gifts. It is my opinion that the Lord is bringing balance in your life. The balance that the Lord is presenting to you is: 1. Your Southern Baptist upbringing that gives you the knowledge of the truth, which is that Scriptures are the Inerrant, Infallible, Word of God. 2. Your Southern Baptist men's group, and the Southern Baptist Denomination, that is experiencing a renewed interest in the Charismata Gifts that are found in 1 Corinthians 12-14. One can have both aspects working in their life. Erich   belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 232 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:30 am:        Dear Erich, That's very true that you wrote, about the balance. In many Churches, the gifts of the Spirit have taken the place of the Word of God. God's standard is His Word, so should ours be. Safe in His blood, Sidharth   easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 995 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.232.192.177 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 10:08 am:        Sidarth says, "Safe in His blood" When we keep our eyes upon Jesus Christ, the Lord and giver of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and upon the Word of God we are safe in His blood. When the Gift of the Holy Spirit is found in Scripture, when we practice the Gifts, and we give the glory to the Lord Jesus Christ we are safe in His blood. We need to maintain our focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the moment that Peter maintained his focus when he walked on the water towards Jesus. If we look at the waves around us we will sink an drown. What Sidharth can be exactly correct, we do not need to fear, we will be "Safe in His blood." Erich   rachelengland (rachelengland) Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 1144 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.128.222.206 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 11:18 am:        but in keeping the focus the minister of a church who is the shepherd is responsible for making sure he's teaching people properly so there isn't confusion and people aren't being led astray and lives aren't being lost thru false teaching.....   belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 254 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 10:30 pm:        Our safety in is the Word of God. The Word of God is sealed with the blood of Jesus. There is no bigger protection that can be offered. The eternal blood preserves the Word, and it can't be changed. Even if the whoel world should crumble, God's Word will stand forever. Sidharth   arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 861 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 9:35 am:        GOD WORD never changes. HE may change HIS method of dealing with an individual but HE DOES CHANGE HIS WORD.   justlittleolme (justlittleolme) New member Username: justlittleolme Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.164.29.93 Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:29 pm:        I'm sorry but I just have to make a comment concerning this thread. I am a lover of Christ and firm beliver in the pure Word of God. Note: I said PURE Word of God. I totally agree with Ba2004 in the area of scripture translations being lost through hidden agendas and seeker sensitive focused scribes. I have studied Greek and Hebrew now for about 3 years and I have to say that after going over the KJV bible with a fine tooth comb, comparing word for word with the actual Greek and Hebrew translation, it would shock just about any truth seeking Christian to see how many added words are so carefully placed to manuveur and propagate King James's hidden agenda to teach a watered down truth that was laced with teachings that lined up with his monarchy. I challenge anyone reading this to purchase a bible on CD with the Greek and Hebrew lexicon and do your own investigation. You will start to understand why people like Martin Luther and Tyndale were considered so dangerous to the scribes of those times... Be blessed! and remember: the TRUTH will set you free...God's Truth.. not the traditions and translations of MAN...   trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven) Intermediate Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 215 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.175.31.119 Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:41 pm:        DISSOLVING THE SPREADING OF RUMORS, MYTHS AND LIES ABOUT BIBLICAL ACCURACY. The Bible is 99.9% accurate from the original and the information below shows it is the same as when written proven by the top Hebrew Greek scholars and archeologists. The discovery of earlier texts such as the Dead Sea scrolls have verified and proven this also. It was never EDITED given additions or deletions only translated and copied. Transcribers were meticulous to preserve and copy word for word THE ORIGINAL LETTERS AND TEXT down through the ages in the original languages. ..ancient Helenistic Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. How the Old Testament was Preserved -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is there an "inspired" order for the books of the Bible? WHO preserved the writings we call the Old Testament? HOW did they insure accurate copies of the Scriptures would be made? Did Jesus have anything to say about the validity of the Old Testament? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bible is without a doubt the most controversial book ever written. There are so many different opinions on what is contained in its pages. One person says, "The Bible is nothing but a book of Jewish fairy tales." Another person says, "I believe in the Bible and its message for me today." Even among professing Christians, it is not unusual to hear, "I believe God gave mankind a collection of writings, but I believe it is possible that man has corrupted these writings in some way." The person goes on to ask, "Why does the Bible contain the books that it does? Is it possible that some of the 66 books in the Bible really don't belong there? "On the other hand, is it possible that the Bible we use today is missing some books that God inspired to be written?" These are NOT improper questions. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know more about the accuracy and validity of Scripture. The Bible itself instructs us to "prove all things" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). The controversy over Biblical canon has not raged for decades or even hundreds of years. It has been with us for thousands of years. Let's briefly examine the preservation of the Old Testament Scriptures to see if we can determine whether or not the Bible that we place our trust in is correctly compiled. "Inspired" Order We should begin by asking if there is there an "inspired order" for the books of the Bible. There are those who say that there is. They say, "If you want to understand the books of the Bible, you must understand their proper order." They insist that the King James Bible has the books in the wrong order. People with this belief point out that it is wrong to take a book written by a certain author and change the order of the chapters. They say that one cannot take an introduction and put it at the end. They say one cannot take a conclusion and put it in the middle. And, they say that this is exactly what has happened to the Bible---that the books are out of order and this mixup causes us to understand the Scriptures incorrectly. Please note that below we have summarized what many believe to be the "inspired order" of the books of the Bible. The summary is titled "The Sevenfold Division of the Bible." It is important to note that we simply cannot prove the "correct" order of the books of the Bible. The Bible itself does not tell us what order, if any, should be followed. THE SEVENFOLD DIVISION OF THE BIBLE OLD TESTAMENT NEW TESTAMENT I. THE LAW Pentateuch Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy IV. GOSPELS Matthew Mark Luke John II. THE PROPHETS Former Prophets Joshua/Judges Samuel/Kings Latter Prophets Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel The Twelve V. ACTS III. THE WRITINGS Poetic Books Psalms Proverbs Job Festival Books Songs of Songs Ruth Lamentations Ecclesiastes Esther Restoration Books Daniel Ezra/Nehemiah I - II Chronicles VI. EPISTLES General Epistles James I Peter II Peter I John II John III John Jude Pauline Epistles Hebrews Romans I Corinthians II Corinthians Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians I Thessalonians II Thessalonians I Timothy II Timothy Titus Philemon VII. REVELATION But we do know that Jesus gave us an indication that the Old Testament was divided into three sections--the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms or Writings (Luke 24:44). In this passage, He was not only giving His stamp of approval to the Scriptures that were used by the Jews. He was also acknowledging that the Holy Scriptures had some type of order to their arrangement. They were not simply a random collection of loose books. How the Old Testament Was Preserved Skeptics have pointed out that the oldest extant version of the Old Testament is less than 1,500 years old. The skeptic looks at the manuscript and says, "The first books of the Bible were written hundreds and hundreds of years before this copy." He says, "All we have available to us is a copy of a copy of a copy, etc. After centuries and centuries of transcribing copies of copies of copies, there must be HUNDREDS of errors in the text of the Old Testament!" This point is well taken. The argument reminds one of the game where about twenty children sit, in a circle. The first one whispers a sentence into the ear of the second child. The second child whispers the same message into the ear of the third child. The message is whispered all the way around the circle. By the time it reaches the ear of the last child, it is usually a totally different message than what came out of the mouth of the first child. Bible skeptics say this is surely what has happened to the Bible as it was recopied over the centuries. The accurate preservation of the Bible should be a concern for all Christians. It is important to understand that the copying methods used in reproducing the Bible were computer-like in their accuracy. Notice the beginning of the history of biblical preservation: "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee" (Deuteronomy 31:24-26). Here we see the beginning of the sacred trust given to the Levites to safeguard the Scriptures. The "writings of words" referred to here are the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, also known as the Law or Pentateuch (Greek) or Torah (Hebrew). From that time forward, the religious leaders of Israel became the zealous guardians of the Scriptures. Later, after the Babylonian captivity of Judah, these Scriptures were practically worshipped as much as was the Creator Himself. It could be said that the love that the Jews had for the Law was tantamount to idolatry! They watched over these Sacred Writings more carefully than any other possession in the Holy Land. Joshua, Moses' successor, also instructed the Israelites to have a special concern for "all the words of the Law" (Joshua 8:35). He told the people to sit down as the Law was read to them. This reading probably took several days because the Torah was a lengthy volume. Many people assume that Paul wrote more of the Bible than any other servant of God. Actually, Paul wrote more books than anyone else, but Moses wrote more volume. Each of Moses' five books was much longer than any of Paul's smaller books. All in all, Moses wrote about three times as much material as Paul. In the time of Joshua, the entirety of the Torah was read to the children of Israel. A great reverence for the Scripture had developed within one generation after the Exodus. We also see that, the Levites were not the only ones involved in preserving the Scriptures. God knew that the day would come when His people would reject Him as their king and that they would insist on having a human king (Deuteronomy 17:14-15). But notice what God instructed the new king to do: "And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them" (verses 18-19). The kings of Israel not only had to study and obey the Law, they also had to write their own personal copies of that Law! The Rules of Copying Now, the result of this reverence was the creation of a system of copying which is nothing less than astounding. The Levites had to create a system of making new copies of the Bible as old copies wore out and had to be destroyed. They knew it would be easy to make a mistake in copying a new transcript, so here is what they did. They developed elaborate and meticulous RULES for transcribing. They decreed that when a person was making a new text, he had to copy the original page with such exactness that the number of words on a page could not be changed. If the original page had 288 words, then the page being copied had to have the same 288 words. Each line on a new page had to be the exact same as the line on the old page. If the first line on the original page had nine words, the first line on the copy page had to have nine words. After a page was copied, the number of letters on that page was counted and compared with the original. After a page was copied, each letter was counted and compared with the original. After a page was copied, someone would check to see what the middle letter was on the copy and the original. "A synagogue roll [remember that they did not have paper as we do today] must be written on the skins of clean animals, the length of each column must not extend less than 48 or more than 80 lines; the breadth must consist of 30 letters. No word or letter, not even a yod, must be written from memory... Between every consonant the space of a hair or thread must intervene, between every book three lines. Besides this the copyist must sit in full Jewish dress, and wash his whole body" (Hebrew Text of the Old Testament, Davidson). The scribes were not allowed to copy sentence for sentence or even word for word. They had to copy letter for letter. After a page was copied and checked by another, still a third person would check to see what the middle word was on the page. Then, when the whole book was finished, another would count the phrases. These are just a few examples of the great detail that went into ensuring the accuracy of the Scriptures. There were many more steps taken in the process. All of this could be characterized as a "fence to the Scriptures (Massorah) because it locked all words and letters in their places... It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, etc... All this ...for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss or misplacement of a single letter or word" (Bullinger, The Companion Bible). These men had no worry whatsoever that there might have been an error. For that reason, they felt no more need to keep their older copies than a data processing manager feels a need to keep his older printouts when he knows his current hard copies are accurate. The Role of the Scribes The ancient Israelites kept a copy of the Scriptures in the first Temple. They put it inside the Ark of the Covenant. This copy became known as "The Temple Scriptures." Even though the first temple was destroyed and the Jews were taken to Babylon, the Scriptures were preserved. In the Babylonian captivity, a group of Levites who became known as the Scribes painstakingly copied and disseminated the Scriptures to other Jews. One of the most important historical figures during this time was Ezra. He was not only a scribe, but the last of the Old Testament prophets. He probably wrote Chronicles and is said to have fixed the Old Testament canon around 400 B.C. After the Jews returned to Palestine, the Scribes continued to take an active part in preserving and distributing the Scriptures. When the second temple was built, another master copy was put in the Holy Place. By the time Jesus was born, the Scribes had become so obsessed with counting jots and tittles that they forgot the very messages that were in the sentences they were transcribing. Their obsession with detail caused Christ to say, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law--judgment, mercy, and faith" (Matthew 23:43). Even after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Scribes continued their work. They were eventually replaced by the Massoretes, who were in charge of preserving the Scriptures from approximately 500-1000 A.D. These new custodians of the Scriptures have left us the Masoretic text on which most modern translations are based. Has the Old Testament been accurately preserved for us today? Absolutely! Jack Finegan, a noted Bible scholar said, "It has been ...estimated that there are ...variations in hardly more than a 1000th part, of the text." This means the Old Testament is at least 99.9% true to the original! Do We Have the Right Books? Now, the question is asked, "All right. The books we have today have the same words that were written several thousand years ago. But how do we know these are the right books?" To find our answer, we begin by noting that we do not have to research all the way back to the nation of Israel, the original authors, and the preservers of the text. We only have to go back to the time of Jesus. If the Jews during the time of Christ's earthly ministry were using the wrong books, He would have mentioned it and the Gospel writers would have recorded it. But as we pointed out earlier, Luke 24:44 puts Jesus' stamp of approval on the Old Testament that was utilized by the Jews of His time. Jesus made many references to Old Testament events. He talked about the Creation epic and the Flood. He talked about, men such as Abel, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, and others. He talked about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ had no problem whatsoever with the Old Testament canon that existed in His time. Nor should we, since it was the very same canon that we have in most, modern translations! The Apocrypha And what about the Apocrypha? These books are part, of the Catholic Bible and a few other versions. The books include Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Judith, Tobit, and I & II Maccabees. There are 14 apocryphal books which some believe should be part of the Old Testament. Actually, there were hundreds of such books. The word "Apocrypha" comes from the Greek word meaning "secrets." Most of these books are mystery books and were written between 200-100 B.C. Tradition tells us that Ezra closed the Old Testament canon around 400 B.C. The apocryphal books were written AFTER Ezra's closing of the Old Testament. Virtually all of the Old Testament was written by Israelites who lived in Palestine. The Apocrypha, however, appears to have been written by Jews in Alexandria, Egypt. This city had a large Jewish colony before the birth of Jesus. Masoretic Text or Septuagint (LXX)? All modern Bibles are translated from either the Septuagint text or the Masoretic text. At this time, it is worthwhile to ask, "Which one is better?" The Septuagint Bible has an interesting if somewhat questionable history. It was prepared in Alexandria, home of the apocryphal writings. Supposedly, in the third century B.C., 72 Jewish scholars from Jerusalem went to Alexandria. In 72 days they translated the Old Testament into Greek, and their translation became known as the Septuagint or the LXX. It was probably originally known as the LXXII for the 72 scholars and 72 days, but this heading became abbreviated to LXX. When reading various versions of the Bible, you should remember that any version based on the LXX is a translation of a translation. For example, the Catholic Bible is translated from the Greek Septuagint, which was translated from the original Hebrew. Most other Bibles are direct translations from the original Masoretic text and are thus more reliable than those translated from the Septuagint. God's Word is True We can now see that God has preserved His written Word for us. Granted, no English translation is perfect. Each has been translated by imperfect men and contains very minor errors but few in the King James, Interlinear, Amplified, and Literal translations. But the original Hebrew Bible from which they are translated is virtually impeccable. For this reason, we should look at several translations when we have difficulty in understanding a particular verse. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16   justlittleolme (justlittleolme) New member Username: justlittleolme Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.164.29.93 Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:54 pm:        Read this article called the Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy.. http://prayershack.freeservers.com/book_GEC.html This is an excellent article (online book actually) about the history and origin of the King James version of the Bible and how a good number of the original verses were altered slightly and words changed to coincide with popular religious tradition and the current governmental structure in the Anglican church of that day. The article also deals with the subject of biblical church leadership.   easeltine (easeltine) Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1004 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 1:05 am:        You really should go to - Doctrines and Beliefs -Bible - KJV Advocates and explain this to the KJV-Only people.   belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 260 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.37.33 Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 10:52 am:        I wouldn't advice anyone to read a specific version alone. Yet, I would advice people not to read some versions such as the Good News Bible, The Living Bible, and the NIV(to an extent). When I study the bible , I use couple of versions such as NKJV, KJV, NASB, NIV and The Amplified. I also use the Strong's Definitions for word meanings. It would be however fanaticism to say only KJV is the true translation. However, the devil has got into many translations in his attempt to distort the Word. Hiding in His Word, Sidharth   easeltine (easeltine) Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1006 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 8:38 pm:        Great Posts! Sidharth, I agree with with your statements, your versions are exactly what I use!   hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 196 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 209.254.77.23 Posted on Thursday, September 14, 2006 - 7:30 pm:        quote: i could really care less what God does Thanks Rachel in England for showing your colors.   brockencarpenter New member Username: brockencarpenter Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 208.100.235.136 Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 5:01 pm:        helo brothers and sisters We need to be careful in i're blogs as to always give God the glory and the honor.We somtimes get caught up and forget the important thing . Smith never healed anyone however he was obedient to the holy spirit and God worked through him. How can we reach a dying world if we are fighting amoung i're selves, lets show i'reselves friendly that we may gain there trust and then there friendship. love in Christ brockencarpenter   hillariousharry Member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.136.25.219 Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 5:44 am:        Hi all And thanks Brocken for your posting. Valued what you said. Keep your thoughts coming. Blessings. Just picked up this thread about Smith Wigglesworth. What I can say is that I believe Smith Wigglesworth was part and parcel of the traditional pentecostal movements all those years ago. I stand to be corrected, but I believe he was affiliaited to British Assemblies of God. AOG at that time, whilst standing firm in their fundamental beliefs, would disassociate themselves from anything which smelt of unhealthy practices and that which could make them a laughing stock. I do think it is good, that today, the Movement is much less exclusive in regard to working with other Xian denominations etc., but unfortunately some of its Assemblies have got tangled up with the dreaded.....(dare I mention it....G12)...but having said this the Movement allows individual churches to be autonomous and can only advise. I am able to pass these comments because I was a pastor within AOG in the 70's and attended an AOG church from childhood. Furthermore, I have had recent contact with one of their pastors, who I knew as a teenager, and who is now part of the Movements executive board. He is Alan Hewitt and glad to say quite normal and careful not to allow unwise excesses to take hold of his ministry. I did read Smith's books as a teenager. My father who was a pastor in the Elim Pentecostal Movement around the time of Smith's ministry would have known him. My father, being of the tradition pentecostal set up, was not extreme or unhealthy in his outworking of faith. What I do feel, is, that later on as Charismatic groups came into being that fanaticism, excesses and dodgy teaching increased within Xain circles. I categorically add that in no way could Smith every be likened to the TV preachers of today, like Benny Hinn and others who I notice on the God channel for example, who, sadly turn my stomach. Quite honestly some of those programmes just make it all the harder for normal Xian groups to share their faith. I guess many seeking souls have been turned off. And all in the Name of our Lord are these TV antics shown ..... normally I would say, what a joke...but serious it is. I write this as someone who is no longer actively part of penetecostal circles; but clearly recalling those former days Blessings, HH (Message edited by hillariousharry on January 06, 2007)   larson2580 New member Username: larson2580 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 24.16.219.161 Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 5:13 am:        I think the most important question to ask yourself and no one else is didn't Paul, Peter and others write about what they did, Jesus did, the Holy Spirit did and what others did? They too wrote about what they did. I do NOT bring this up because I doubt any of you love God. Indeed you do and your love for Him is evident in that none of you want to be duped. I have read many books by Wigglesworth and I realize he was just a man with incredible faith and readily available to service for God. Jesus told His disciples to leave some people alone who weren't completely right in their teaching but were trying and were sincere in heart and NO of us are qualified to judge some one on that level. I believe that God demonstrated His divine ability to move amongst His people and others so that "some might be saved". I hope that this helps. I will not reply to this because I wish not to debate the works of God but to shed some light on some issues that I believe have not yet been discussed.   turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1724 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 8:37 am:        I know I keep saying last post, but I got to put my two sense in. I been studying this issue of these faith healers. Will not really, but just from my own experience as well as what I have seen on t.v. Here is my conclusion. If these men and women are of faith do they need a reality check. Those that are Christians know what it is to live by faith. It doesn't mean not going to doctors and taking medicine, it never did. Did not Paul instruct timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. But here is the catch, do faith healers themselves get put to sleep by seeing these miracles time and time again. Seeing the power of God and knowing God that they fail to see the human side or the fakery that comes with the territory. Maybe truth is they need that reality check that they still need doctors from time to time and still need glasses and still need whatever. God performs miracles, but it is to demonstrate his power and glory. People come to Christ when miracles happen even if it is several years down the road or even begin to grow in a new way. There are people lives that seem affect I was not aware of by what God has done for me and for them. A spiritual growth and renewal as taken place for many. Yet it not the miracle itself that did it, It was just a glance of what God can do, the main thing was what God does in the heart of a man and women and child. The spiritual renewing. Maybe these ministers need a reality check. And discernment.

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