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truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 9:53 pm: | 
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So many who support Homestead Heritage and deny the claims made by dozens of Ex-members (many whom were a part of HH for 15-20+ years), that Blair Adams is the sole leader and in so many ways the messianic figure of HH. Advocates of HH claim they follow a pattern of the five-fold ministry. They say we/they have a plurality of elders, it is not a one-man show.
Even though I know this is what the members wished they believed, it’s not what Blair Adams believes about himself nor teaches as I will show in as quickly as possible using some reference’s from his book , “The Order of Perfection”.
He is talking about the “Five fold ministry” and it’s necessity in perfecting of the “Bride of Christ” while here on earth. He has been talking about how a fully functional five fold ministry is “Perfect” even as Christ was perfect. Adams makes very clear that he in his function as apostle, is the Head of this ministry and is not accountable to anyone save God himself. Here he says it in his own words,
“ To briefly reiterate, apostle means , as shown, one who is “sent forth”. The apostle of Jesus Christ is one who is sent forth directly by the Spirit of Jesus and is directly responsible to the Spirit. No intermediate ministry stands between him and the Head. He is the first ( 1 Cor. 12:28) in God’s unfolding chain of revelation to the church. His is the initiating ministry. His primary duty is to preach the revelation of God by which the Body structures and builds itself, to bring the living word – not that he has “built upon” but that he has founded, initiated – to God’s people as a whole ( 2 Tim. 4:2; Rom. 10:14; 1 Cor. 1:17; 9:16; Mark 3:14 ) As the initiating ministry within the Body, the apostle is the chief means whereby the Spirit directly initiates building activity within the Body of Christ. Everything , the Bible tells us, must be done in decency and in order (1 Cor. 14:40, KJV ), and the order through which the Spirit initiates new revelation, sows the founding seed of his overall pattern for the churches, is through the apostolic ministry.”
One thing that is so freaky to me about what he wrote here is that he is writing about his own place of authority, he is making his own rules and sees himself as justified because of his apostolic position. In many meetings I have heard He and the other top elders refer to him as a patriarchal leader such as Moses. As I have said in other posts he believes that a new priesthood is being revealed in the true church, right there in Homestead through his family. Now if that doesn't make you shake in your shoes it should. Why on earth does he think Jesus came and died? The old ways are gone, we are no longer slaves held under the law by prophets and apostles have you, but Paul said the fullness of time had come, God sent his son Jesus born under the law to redeem those under the law that we might receive the adoption as sons, and in doing so we ALL have a direct connection to God our father ( Gal. 4:1-7 ). There is not one ex-member who can honestly say that Blair taught that whole scripture, but stopped after verse 2 that says, "but is kept under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the Father." |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.168
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 3:48 am: |
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Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
6 "They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.
8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
**********
}Jeremiah 31: 31-33 Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.86.28
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 8:47 am: |
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One of the things I heard several mention when I was there that if Blair died who would be the next "Mosies" apostle. He (according to the people) said no one. There was only Mosies...
He seems to make them believe he is some type Mosies who has "God revealed" patterns for the church today...
And ART has the courage to say they are like Oneness Pentecostal people...No oneness Bishop, Elder, Pastor that I know of makes such claims. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 9:33 am: |
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I thought Missionary Lady might find it interesting what they have to say about people in her position as a missionary,
This is from " The Order Of Perfection" by Blair Adams.
Artificial evangelism is devoid of relationship with both God and man. Yet as elsewhere shown, the essence of salvation is tied inseparably to covenant relationship. We cannot, outside of covenant, come into complete oneness with God that expresses our salvation. The evangelist then, to be effectual in bearing Godly fruit, must himself abide in the covenant with Jesus Christ and His corporate Body. Only if he stands in his proper place in the Body can he bring forth fruit that remains. The evangelist doesn't function as a star performer; he must work together with his fellow elders and brothers and sisters in the Lord to help bring people to birth into the ordered family of God and His people, the people of God come into appropriate relationship with the people in the world - through their jobs, their shared interests, their neighborhoods, there family, their lifestyle or in some other way.
People like ML in Homesteads eyes have "seen the light" yet rejected it, they see her as the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and said;" What must I do to be saved" ? But it was to much for him to give his wealth to the poor, just as ML was told she must "Let the baby die", give up her own relationship with God and submit every thought, word and deed to HH leadership,and if need be; cut off every other person, pastor or friend who are in HH's eyes really only pretending to be christians, because as we have seen they aren't in covenant with the "true Body of Christ".
They now view ML in Blair's word's a, "Hollywood Star" or "Playmate of the month" , someone who loves the spotlight and people loving them for their gifts, but are not truly connected to any of them. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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Many claim that the office of Apostle has been re-established in today’s time. Most of these modern Apostles do not claim to have the authority equal to the original twelve. They do not claim to have any authority except in their own church in which they operate in an ‘apostolic’ function. Apostle can be defined as ‘teacher’ or ‘evangelist’.
……….” “To briefly reiterate, apostle means, as shown, one who is “sent forth”. The apostle of Jesus Christ is one who is sent forth directly by the Spirit of Jesus and is directly responsible to the Spirit. No intermediate ministry stands between him and the Head.”…………
+++++++++++++++
True teachers of Christ and pastors of Churches are ‘called’ or ‘sent forth’ by the Spirit.
No intermediary stands between ANYONE and God.
So this statement is accurate.
+++++++++++++++
The rest of your quote from this writing could be said of almost any Christian ministry.
Truth Hunter, Has this man every used the word ‘Apostle’ in his title such as in the way ‘Bishop’ is used by some? |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 146
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
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Artificial, …….or in other terms pretend, counterfeit, fake,……. Evangelism is devoid of relationship with both God and man. A very true statement.
……..the essence of salvation is tied inseparably to covenant relationship. We cannot, outside of covenant, come into complete oneness with God that expresses our salvation………….
Covenant = promise, commitment. If we don’t commit ourselves to God we will risk our salvation. Right? I don’t find a problem with this.
…………..The evangelist then, to be effectual in bearing Godly fruit, must himself abide in the covenant with Jesus Christ and His corporate Body………….
The evangelist must be a born again Christian and be committed to God. O.K.?????
……………. Only if he stands in his proper place in the Body can he bring forth fruit that remains. The evangelist doesn't function as a star performer; he must work together with his fellow elders and brothers and sisters in the Lord to help bring people to birth into the ordered family of God and His people,…………..
I think this refers to the ‘T.V.’ preachers that ‘put on a show’ and sit back and watch the money roll in but don’t get involved in the lives of any of those that they speak to. At least that is the way I interpret this.
I only get to read what you post and I trust you are posting accurate so maybe I’m missing something but so far I don’t see a problem. It might be I am reading this with an unprejudiced mind and a gentle heart. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 88
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
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PH, I agree with you that HH in so many ways sounds, looks and in some ways even acts like most christians, however there are core detrimental differences such as the one you pointed out; only the one in the apostolic position has a direct connect to God. I hope you see the disaster that comes from teaching people that the only true source of wisdom and understanding comes through a man and you MUST obey him, even though your conscience is screaming that you are out of God's will.
I have said before HH doctrine, teachings and writings can be VERY confusing to those such as yourself being as HH has it's own terminology and what may mean one thing to the casual reader or passerby, but can in reality mean something completely different. If you have never experienced total submission to a man, you will not understand it in entirety.
As far as I know he is only called "Brother Blair", but I have also heard since I left from a HH member that he refers to himself as Bishop. Though several other members deny it. So I don't know.
Oh and one more thing, I don't give a hoot how many people claim the apostolic ministry is coming again. From my experience it is a farce and a way to gain power and control, I believe any man who puts himself in the place of absolute authority is an anti-Christ. Now I do believe that all of us were sent to spread the Good News, but that there are those who have been given the gift in greater measure, I believe in a five-fold ministry as a means to equip the saints, but in no way to control or force our own ideas and feelings on trusting followers no matter how good our intentions may be. The way that HH worships the place of apostle is wrong, evil and putting an idol of a man before God. In doing so I believe HH is committing the sin of Jeroboam by teaching the people they don't have to go to God just come to us we have his full wisdom, knowledge,
understanding, judgment and the capability to forgive sin. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 89
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 10:50 am: |
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PH,
One thing that might help you understand what Blair is saying is when he refers to true Christianity he is referring to HH doctrine and only HH doctrine. You read it as most would, not seeing any problem at all, because you think of yourself included in Christianity, not artificial. You read it as making a covenant with God, but in reality he means a covenant with Christ's tangible Body here on earth, and not as a whole but as I showed in Blair's own writing in one of my other posts, that a relationship with God is abstract and leads to fornication, it must be brought down to a personal human level and when it is all boiled down the way you have a true relationship with God (according to Blair) is through him (Blair Adams).
If this seems normal to you, then I know exactly where you are coming from.
(Message edited by truth hunter on December 08, 2005) |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 147
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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TH, I appreciate your response. However, being an unhappy ex-member I also know you will tend to skew the meanings of the writings based on your interpretation and your current beliefs. So I must rely on the exact posting of their writings and interpret them myself based on my understandings and belief. If you want the casual unattached reader in this forum to form a fair opinion then we must be able to come to a decision about the writings ourselves. Keep in mind I personally don’t care to know their particular doctrine. I firmly believe they should be able to believe as they wish even if it means giving their pastor high authority and/or respect or title. That should be up to each Body. Thankfully this is America and we enjoy these freedoms. But to give a balanced view I will look into each posting, as time allows, and give my modest opinion based on my interpretation based on my particular belief. We must do this in a Christian atmosphere with brotherly love as a common denominator for me to participate. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
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..........If this seems normal to you, then I know exactly where you are coming from............
The exact kind of statement that is unnecessary. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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PH, you said,
"So I must rely on the exact posting of their writings and interpret them myself based on my understandings and belief.
You are a prime candidate for joining HH, this is exactly how good upstanding christians fall for HH doctrine.
I am here to help people like you, and other people who have interest in HH, to have an interpretation of what is really going on in HH, and what is really being said. You don't know and you haven't seen. You don't have to take my word for it, you don't have to believe me. But what I have said is the truth.
You describe me as an unhappy ex-member, I am much more than that.
You said,
Keep in mind I personally don’t care to know their particular doctrine. I firmly believe they should be able to believe as they wish even if it means giving their pastor high authority and/or respect or title.
I totally agree with you that they have the right to believe what they want, just as David Koresh, Jim Jones, the KKK and the Nation of Islam have the right. What matters to me is that people get hurt, some doctrines are dangerous not only to the people who believe them but those around them. Do you want a child molester living next door to you and your children, and the whole time you believe he is a great loving christian from Homestead Heritage? Not I.
PH, you seem very odd to me, you defend what you think is good and right, based upon your "own" understanding, and totally ignore the testimony of dozens of ex-members, saying you don't care about their true doctrine, only their right to have it.
PH, what if I am dead on, what if I am not just an "unhappy" member? What then ? |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 91
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
|
PH, I will say when it comes to doctrine, it can be perfect in every way, but if you swap out God for a man, it doesn't matter how perfect your doctrine is, if your not worshiping God our maker but give that place to a man, even a good man, human nature cannot handle this kind of authority, it WILL be corrupted. So on paper it may look good, but put it into action with a man a the top, and all that can come of it is death and chaos. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 149
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 1:59 pm: |
|
TH,
First, I have no desire to join this church. Being a prime candidate is not an issue.
Second, I must consider the numbers. There are about 800 members still in this church so I consider them in a ‘pro’ position and maybe 20 to 30 writing against them in the ‘con’ position. There have also been a number; I’m not sure how many; of ex-members writing in defense of the church or also in the ‘pro’ position.
+++++++++++++++++++
TH………”I am here to help people like you, and other people who have interest in HH, to have an interpretation of what is really going on in HH, and what is really being said.”…….
+++++++++++++++++++
PH……Thanks all the same but I would like to form my own interpretation based on factual writings and not rely on you to interpret for me. Your interpretation is for you alone. Each believer should form their own understanding. Now you kinda sound like what you accuse them of……thinking for me.
+++++++++++++++++++
TH……….”I totally agree with you that they have the right to believe what they want, just as David Koresh, Jim Jones, the KKK and the Nation of Islam have the right. What matters to me is that people get hurt, some doctrines are dangerous not only to the people who believe them but those around them.”
+++++++++++++++++++
PH………..To put them in the same grouping as the folks you mention is confirmation that you project them with a skewed view. And to submit that their doctrines are dangerous is based on your beliefs today. Apparently you believed with them until one day you changed your mind, for whatever reason, and you now believe different. It seems I remember a rotten house you and your new bride faced. But for me on the outside it appears you believe one way and they believe another way and 33,997 other ways are out there in case you change your mind again.
+++++++++++++++++++
TH…………Do you want a child molester living next door to you and your children, and the whole time you believe he is a great loving Christian from Homestead Heritage? Not I……………
+++++++++++++++++++
PH………….I’m going to get a little rough with you now just to put this in its place. I’ve seen you refer to this a number of times and it is a serious accusation. A little while back when I did some research on this church I talked with a great friend of mine, who works for the local Sheriff, who in turn called someone he knows at your local Sheriff office. This issue no longer exists and no one currently in this group is a concern. If this occurred in the past, and they would not confirm this……..privacy you know…. …it is history and you are using it to defame a group of people that you state you love. You said your only concern is with the leadership yet to make this accusation you charge the whole group.
++++++++++++++++++
TH……….”PH, you seem very odd to me, you defend what you think is good and right, based upon your "own" understanding, and totally ignore the testimony of dozens of ex-members, saying you don't care about their true doctrine, only their right to have it.
PH, what if I am dead on, what if I am not just an "unhappy" member? What then ?
++++++++++++++++++++
PH………..My Christian brother, of course I defend based on my ‘own’ understanding. I cannot think and choose and believe based on someone else’s understanding. We all have to think for ourselves. I am not ignoring the testimony of dozens of ex-members. I am weighing them against other testimony, against the church writing you post, against my beliefs, and against scripture. I’ve hope I have not written you are wrong in your statements. I cannot corroborate what happened to you. I have no idea other than what you post. Instead, I have written you are wrong to persecute them for being and believing different. If you want to slam them for what they did to you, you have every right. If you want to slam them for believing contrary to your present beliefs, you are wrong.
+++++++++++++++++++++
TH………..” what if I am dead on, what if I am not just an "unhappy" member? What then ?”
+++++++++++++++++++++
PH………Then you will be justified before men. But what if you are wrong? You will have to give an account before God. Is it worth the possibility of losing your salvation?
I’m not saying you will. God only knows. But doing anything, ANYTHING, that in some way just might, just somehow might, have a negative effect on our permanent stance with our redeemer is just too risky in my book. There is too much at stake. That’s why I try so hard to have a PURE HEART. I’m not there but I’m trying. I try so hard to see good in everything and everybody.
++++++++++++++++++++++
TH…………….” all that can come of it is death and chaos.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
PH…………… All I can say is while at the Fair I saw love and happiness. I saw a bunch of Christians in harmony. They looked extremely happy to me. So I leave them to there happy little world. They appear to be enjoying it.
(Message edited by pure-heart on December 08, 2005) |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 92
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
|
PH, however you view things matter not to me, I will sit here and write the truth, even if I am the only one. If you don't believe me, thats fine, I am not deterred buy your disbelief and condescending manner by calling me son.
I write what I do, because I love my friends and family in HH, you don't know me or what I witnessed, I don't care what they did to me, I only care about what they do to the ones that I love that are still there. And those who might join, I will shout it from the roof tops and any other way I find that will expose what they do to you once you are a part of them. If you still decide to join them that's great, I at least did my part in warning them.
So many here keep saying, "don't listen to truth hunter, remember there's another side to the story". This is true, but should the flip side be accepted as truth? All I ask is that people hear what I have to say, accept it or not, but don't tell me I'm lying, or in danger of loosing my salvation because I have taken a stand against an impostor.
As far as there being ex-members here giving a pro side, there are only really two, ART, and Very Disturbed, ART was a part for about a year with a family, and most of that time he lived out of state.VD was not married nor tried to raise a family in HH, Dowen as far as I can remember was never a member, but left when he was just a young teen.
You claim I changed my beliefs, I was brought into HH by my parents, it was not my choice, I joined but only because I thought they believed something they didn't. It wasn't till about ten years later that I came to realize the Jesus I had been taught to love long before my family joined HH, was not at all the same jesus we were serving in HH. Call me dense, but it took many horrible circumstances to wake me up to the fact that this was true. When I look back now I see that God was calling me and my family and so many others in so many ways to come back to him and leave behind the temple with its priests and sacrifices of doves, lambs and bulls. God wanted our hearts, and lives to look to him for our salvation. And not some quant attempt to go back in time and find a formula that would make us perfect, when the only thing that can do that is Christ Himself through his sacrifice on Calvary. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 150
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
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Sorry, I changed the word 'son' to a better word. It's just I know from reading these posts I have a great many more years on you and I really meant it as an warmhearted word. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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PH, I want to, and do respect your wisdom from years of experience. I don't know if you have silver hair, but the bible speaks of it as a sign of wisdom. I want you to know I read every one of your post with an open mind, some things I'm with you brother, but some things go against my conscience. But I know I also make mistakes, so I'm sure a lot of what I write could be written in a more humble spirit.
Your quiet answer has turned away my wrath. 
I love the fact that you and I disagree can disagree on a good many things yet we can still have a conversation. I wish it were true of my friends in HH.
I do want to disagree on on thing in your last long post, you said, Now you kinda sound like what you accuse them of……thinking for me.
It is not a matter of interpretation as they do with the bible or in knowing God's will,,,, I have seen these things in action, I have seen the abuse, I have seen the honor given to men and not God, I can say from experience what Blair is saying and what he means.
May you have a wonderful evening.
Truth Hunter. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 138
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 201.4.99.187
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
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Yes, I know what has been said about me...funny how news travels... |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Thanks TH,
Just get in God’s will and everything else will work out.
I pray you also have a great evening.
Pureheart |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
Junior Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
|
PH,
Until recently I thought you were either a former member or current member of HH. I learned from one of your recent posts that you have never laid eyes on HH or any of its members.
In response to my thread, “The Authority Issue,” you said you were in complete agreement with the authority claims of HH leadership and then quoted scripture, many of them made by the apostle Paul in his position as an apostle, who was directly called and appointed by Christ. You said that pastors have this same authority. You are in full agreement with the idea that pastors can rule as tyrants if they do it in the name of the Lord. Even though Jesus and the apostles made it very clear that tyranny has no place in the conduct of pastoral duties, that seems to have passed over your head unnoticed.
You tell TH that you read into the HH material quoted, something different than the context arrived at by TH (even though TH actually lived under the doctrine in day to day reality). The reason you disagree is because you do agree – with HH – on the authority issue. We could quote you HH literature all day, thinking it will open your eyes to the abuse of power, but it would by futile. You see the words for what they say and you answer, “Amen! Bring it on. I must deserve it! The Lord disciplines those He loves through his ministers!” I am reading what I see in your writing, which seems to be a valid practice in your estimation.
The point we want to make is that the Bible and the Lord Jesus do not give tyrannical authority to anyone. No one is above reproof, not even the pastor And the pastor is answerable to those he serves (see I Tim. 5). Paul writing to both the Corinthians (II cor. 2:6) and the Thessalonians (II Thes. 3:14-15) tells these churches, as a corporate body, to exercise discipline. We all, as believers, are priests before God. We all have access to the Throne of God individually. If I am a priest, I do not need another priest to go to God for me or to have God go through some other priest to speak to me. Read the letter to the Hebrews.
It may be conjectured from the “Jesus coming in the flesh” doctrine that it is no ones business if there are abuses of children in the Body because the Body is not responsible for those abuses. A member might say, “It is the business of the pastor, elder, apostle. God will not hold me responsible because the apostle, elder, is answerable to God. If I am submissive and keep my mouth shut no one can hold me responsible.” Think again, the state of Texas will show that person real fast who has the real authority! It only takes one victim to gather enough courage to come forward and file a complaint. We are all responsible before God and earthly authorities (Rom. 13) for our actions. And pastors are responsible to those they shepherd if they become abusive in the course of their ministry. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 152
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 3:54 pm: |
|
Greetings Old Watchman,
OW…………….”You are in full agreement with the idea that pastors can rule as tyrants if they do it in the name of the Lord.”…………
PH……………..You are putting words in my mouth. I said pastors have God given authority but a true Christian pastor will be loving and gentle with his flock. I never said they could be tyrants. Show me where I said that!
OW…………..”You tell TH that you read into the HH material quoted, something different than the context arrived at by TH (even though TH actually lived under the doctrine in day to day reality)…………..
PH…………..If you read a book and I read the same book we will form two different opinions of the material written. That’s why there are thousands of different denominations of people all reading the same Bible.
OW…………”The reason you disagree is because you do agree – with HH – on the authority issue. We could quote you HH literature all day, thinking it will open your eyes to the abuse of power, but it would by futile. You see the words for what they say and you answer, “Amen! Bring it on. I must deserve it! The Lord disciplines those He loves through his ministers!” I am reading what I see in your writing, which seems to be a valid practice in your estimation.”……..
PH…………..If the literature does not specifically contain your accusations but instead you base your accusations on a few personal experiences I find it hard to proclaim them guilty. You say they teach a false gospel but in reality they teach a gospel you do not agree with and apparently you are correct and all who disagree with you are incorrect.
OW………” The point we want to make is that the Bible and the Lord Jesus do not give tyrannical authority to anyone.”……….
PH…………I agree 100%
OW………First you say” We all, as believers, are priests before God. We all have access to the Throne of God individually. If I am a priest, I do not need another priest to go to God for me or to have God go through some other priest to speak to me. Read the letter to the Hebrews.”………….
Then you say…….” And pastors are responsible to those they shepherd if they become abusive in the course of their ministry.”………….
PH………..This is contradictory. Your point is lost in the rambling.
OW………”It may be conjectured from the “Jesus coming in the flesh” doctrine that it is no ones business if there are abuses of children in the Body because the Body is not responsible for those abuses. A member might say, “It is the business of the pastor, elder, and apostle. God will not hold me responsible because the apostle, elder, is answerable to God. If I am submissive and keep my mouth shut no one can hold me responsible.” Think again, the state of Texas will show that person real fast who has the real authority! It only takes one victim to gather enough courage to come forward and file a complaint.
PH………….CONJECTURED = An opinion based on incomplete evidence.
Thesaurus: inference, guess, hypothesis, opinion, supposition, guesstimate.
PH.........So you are guessing that in reading a paper this is what it could mean? I gave you more credit than I do now.
In conclusion,
OW, I don’t know how much you know about this group other than what you’ve been told by a group of unhappy ex’s. I, sir, have done extensive research about them. I don’t jump to a group’s defense unless I know what I am defending. I still don’t know a lot about their particular doctrine and I don’t care to. It’s not important. It is important to know what you are attacking. And from what I have learned you are completely off base and you have lost a considerable amount of credibility in you fishing expedition. I stand by my statement that you sir are a ‘purveyor of hate’. Good Day!
Oh by the way OW…one extra side note….I have found in my discussions with them that these ex’s are true Christians with hurt feelings. I just pray they can move forward in their lives with forgiveness and Glorify God with all their future actions. I haven’t found any of your posts to speak of forgiveness or love or any teaching of Jesus. How sad….. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 153
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
|
OW, it really strains me to answer you at times because I really feel sorry for you but at the same time I feel you only come on board when the tension has subsided and we are joining hands in God’s love. You just can’t stand to see God’s children in harmony. This is not the first time I pointed this out. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
|
OW……one more point before I break for the weekend. In my research I found this church group is made up of many very intelligent people. There are doctors, lawyers, business owners, firemen, nurses, and on and on and on. These people are perfectly capable of discerning the truth. Until you visit them and ask unbiased authorities about these folks you should forgo any inflammatory statements. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 7:46 pm: |
|
PH said,
"Until you visit them and ask unbiased authorities about these folks you should forgo any inflammatory statements."
I say to you PH, until you have been a part of them for 10+ years do not discredit what we ex-members have to say. It really bothers me when someone like you who knows nothing about HH, takes a stand against those of who have lost friends and family wept and cried every night for months on end because of the pain and suffering being afflicted upon those you love. It just burns me up to have someone as ignorant as you about the nature of the dealings that go on in HH sit there and judge us because of inconclusive evidence, you can try to speak to our hearts in your humble attitude, but I have seen the likes of you justify rape, child abuse, incest, children forced to marry someone they couldn't stand, through fear tactics. If you are trying to get me to stop coming against a doctrine that gives a man the authority to do anything he wants to anybody no matter what the consequences, you are speaking to deaf ears.
I suggest you seek God till you have the attitude of Jesus, and when you see His house and children being lead astray by an egotistic, power hungry dictator or even the suggestion of it, take a stand for righteousness and not with the Pharisees in their white washed tombs. Because that's what you, who saw the smiling faces at the fair saw. Did you know that if you as a member of HH are caught at the fair by a leader without a smile on your face you will be sent home. I assure you that what you see at the fair is the white wash, I have said this time and time again. And every time someone like you comes and says in their ignorance, that you know its a good place because you visited them for a day, or a week or a month or a year or even two, I will be here saying otherwise.
Those sweet people out there are held in fear and trembling, it is even taught that the fear of the leadership as Jesus in the flesh is the beginning of wisdom, they want you to be afraid, they want you to tremble in their presence, and I have seen it and done it.
You said that OW can't stand to see God's children in harmony. You would I'm sure then also believe in a dictatorship or total government control, with the death penalty for EVERY crime because then we would have total peace and harmony even if it's at the cost of every freedom.
PH, you also said to OW,
You are putting words in my mouth. I said pastors have God given authority but a true Christian pastor will be loving and gentle with his flock. I never said they could be tyrants. Show me where I said that!
Let me ask you this. Would a true christian pastor do, enforce, and cover the things that so many here have testified about on this message board? OW believes they wouldn't, why must you try to make OW look like he's saying something he's not. To me it was perfectly clear what OW was saying, I don't usually come to other posters defense but my friend you were the one in my eyes who as you so eloquently put it , "Your point is lost in the rambling." |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 388
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 8:13 pm: |
|
"and when you see His house and children being lead astray by an egotistic, power hungry dictator..."
You see, TH, this is the problem with your approach to the folks at HH. When you write lies and hate-speech like the above quote, you are calling into queston the integrity of men like my father.
What you are essentially saying is every single member of HH is to stupid, or blind, to see that their leadership is actually made up of dictators, power mad men, egotistical men, etc. etc.
Do you not see the arrogance of your position?
Tell me, do you actually think you are smarter than all of the members of HH? |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 389
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 8:18 pm: |
|
As PH said, HH membership is comprised of Lawyers, Doctors, highly successful business men, firemen, nurses, professors, and the list goes on and on. You, TH, have come along and declared that you have "seen the light" and everything those obviously brilliant people believe in is wrong. How arrogant of you! |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 95
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 11:58 pm: |
|
Who is the arrogant one, the one who admits he was brain washed, or the one who claims to be to brilliant? If you think brilliance, or education constitutes the ability to not be deceived, you only prove your stupidity.
And another thing, when I refer to the leadership in HH, I am not referring to your father, He is a pawn at best in their game of power and control. Do not pretend he is in some high position in HH. He holds a lesser position than a young man barely older than you.
Being deceived doesn't make you a bad or dumb person, in most cases it means you are a trusting person, and you have been taken advantage of. Just like you Daniel, you're not dumb, yet you trust your dad, who trusts a man who trusts in Blair who has deceived them into believing he is something he's not.
And lastly, no I don't think I'm smarter then the people of HH, the way I see it is that God brought the circumstances that broke my trust in men, and when that trust was broken and I put my trust fully in Him. He lead me out, He has blessed me, and now I feel He has called me to sound the alarm, blow the trumpet, jump up and down if need be, but warn of the corruption that is in a place that claims to follow him.
Dowen, people like your father, are what make HH good, it is people like him that attract visitors, they see blessed, loving men like your father, they feel the gifts of God flowing through him just like your dad was attracted to HH because of my dad. He trusted my dad, at least that's what he told me. We trust people in leadership because we love them, and view them as smarter and more spiritual than we. It is because of this love and trust that we can be easily deceived into following these men as God, and human nature enjoys having this power, this feeling of superiority. And if we give way to it we will set ourselves up as an "apostle" and tell our followers that we alone know God's will for their lives. And the people follow blindly because somewhere along the line the devil was able to get them to trust in a man as their conscience.
Dowen, I love them, every one, even Blair. I pray that he will see he is not peoples salvation and he will turn back to God, and lead the confused flock that is stumbling after him back towards Jesus the one who can really change their lives, fix their problems and not just stuff them under the rug of external patterns so they can crop back up time and time again, but they can be free from sin because their hearts are one with Jesus Christ. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:19 am: |
|
Dowen, as I was falling asleep last night I had a picture of you and I arguing about what it was like in HH and I realized why you will probably never agree with me. The picture I had was a mausoleum, you were standing outside describing its beauty and I was on the inside describing is filth, stench and death. We had completely different views but both were correct. Dowen I agree with you that the out side is beautiful, but you have NEVER been on the inside.
The other thing I thought of was your asking if I thought I was smarter than,"Lawyers, Doctors, highly successful business men, firemen, nurses, professors, and the list goes on and on."
Who was the wisest smartest man in the world ? Let me tell you, His name was Solomon, he was the most wealthy king of his time, maybe ever. He wrote several of the books of the bible, "The Word of God", He built the temple according to God's design he was one cool dude, forget lawyer, doctor or professor this guy's IQ was probably off the chart. You see Dowen, it has nothing to do with brains, it is simply human nature to follow other God's. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 393
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:19 am: |
|
Oh my!
That is one of the most contradictory posts I have read in a long time!
I think any reader with an open mind will be able to see through the above poorly thought out and obviously strained rhetoric.
I do want to make two points though;
#1.
I put this in italics and underlined it because it is essential that the reader understand this point, The people at HH do NOT think that any of their leaders are God, or their salvation or their conscience, period.
TH lies when he says HH teaches that their leaders are gods.
#2.
TH say's that when he refers to the leadership at HH is not refering to my father. But my father is a leader at HH so unless, when he refers to HH leaders he always uses the dis-claimer "all HH leaders except _____ ____......well you get my point.
This confusing logic is typical of someone in the throws of desperation.
TH, I encourage you to stop your shouting from the housetops, blowing upon horns, and leaping about! Trust in an Almighty God to protect His children! Come in out of the cold and love on someone instead of always attacking, attacking attacking.
I have often heard that Love is the most powerful force in the Universe...This is just a suggestion but maybe, just maybe, if you were to spend as much energy loving on the folks at HH as you do attacking them, then you might accomplish something. When you have the most powerful force in the Universe at you disposal, it doesn't make sense not to use it....
(Message edited by dowen on December 10, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 394
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:23 am: |
|
I see we posted at the same time...
Have a good weekend Hunter!
Oh, and PS,
I HAVE been on the inside of HH, and also I have been on the inside of the "world". I must say I like HH better.... |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 97
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
|
Let me ask you some questions Dowen. Your family has been in HH, what, 15 years? In that time has the Blair Adams family as a whole visited your family in their home ? When your family joined how many elders or leaders were there in HH, maybe five or six right ? Of those five or six that were in power how many remain? How many have been removed ? Ahhh we have seen dozens like your father removed from leadership as expendable pawns. Who I ask you is the ONE AND ONLY LEADER who has never ever been removed from leadership? In your answer you find the true leader of HH, this leader if he follows his 30+ year pattern will remove your father from his place as a pawn. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 396
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
|
"...we have seen dozens like your father removed from leadership as expendable pawns.
This type of viscous and unwarranted attack is entirely uncalled for.
No leader at HH is even remotely viewed as an "expendable pawn"...
Once again you are calling into question the integrity of God fearing and Devout men, such as my dad. How dare you.
Your behaviour is that of a wolf, I fear for you. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 98
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
|
Dowen, just because you close your eyes and count to three, doesn't mean the reality is going away. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 139
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.11.18
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
|
Pureheart;
Do you know that Jermey's father was once a "big" guy at HH. Jermey does know what he is talking about. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 140
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.46.181
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
|
I have noticed over and over again on different threads people mention the size of membrship at HH as if that would determine if they are or are not of God.
I am not calling them Jim Jones but since I am from Brazil his group is still talked about...He had I think it was over 900 members.
What did he major in: Intense fear of the imminent end of civilization and extreme isolation of the members...
My friends, why in the name of God would we not want our people to fellowship other groups unless we have some egoist reason? (This is a question not a statement.)
Why teach any group of people that salvation is tied to an earthly relationship? While it is true we all have people in our life's we look up to it is also true that Jesus Christ alone and He alone gave His life for our salvation.
When man tries to sit in God's chair...Jim Jomes groups are formed...
I say Jim Jones was sick in the head along with Koresh and a bunch of others but sicker are people that do not have enough guts to stand up for what is right and drink poisoned koolaid.
I have have seen a lot of things in my life done in the name of God...In fact I just got off the phone with a pastor friend that mentioned a great name in Pentecost...that ran off with his secertary..I knew him quite well...You know his problem? He was the apostle...answered to no one...Had his own little kingdom...
I am not saying anyone at HH would do this but I am saying a system that puts any man up as god is a dangerous system. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 398
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
|
My dear Missionary Lady, the problem with what you are saying here is HH does not put any man up as God!.
You, TH and others are desperately trying to pin that charge on HH, and it simply isn't true!
Call me a naive child but I know this to be true!
Please stop this un-Godly defamation of Children of God. I beg you.
In Peace,
DOwen. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 141
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.60.148
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
|
Call me naive but what I have said is true...If the shoe fits wear it... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 142
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.60.148
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
|
If HH does not put up any man as God then why fear the mortal men there?
Don't tell me the people don't fear them because I have see them tremble before them...
When is the last time you had one of them shake their finger in your face and scream? I saw it and I am not a liar.
When is the last time you had your mom call you in the middle of the night weeping because of them?
Look my mom wants me to leave her name out of this but I went there because of her and I really left there because of the way they treated her among many of the reasons... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 143
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.60.148
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
|
Besides Dowen my mom cannot see what they have done to her but I can... |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 99
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
|
"Call me a naive child but I know this to be true! "
Dowen you were never a member, you never signed baptism papers, you never got married there. In fact if you had not joined by the time you were eighteen you would have been asked to leave. I thought one way about HH till I got married. I had no idea what my dad had shielded me from, and neither do you, being as you have NEVER been in that position.
You also stated that you have been on the inside of HH, how is this possible if you were never a member? How do you know the truth ? |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 144
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.60.148
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 7:19 pm: |
|
They don't put up man as God yet they are Jesus in the flesh... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.60.148
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
|
Gal 1:8-12
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
KJV
When I went to HH I was assured they preached what I have always preached before I left I found them to believe quite a different message and quite different from what Paul taught. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 146
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.95.177
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
|
Pure Heart '
You say there are 800 members and 20 or 30 writing against them. I don't think anyone is really writing against them but 20 or 30 have enough nerve to come out and tell people what HH really is.
Do you need numbers to convience you? I can get several hundred of our people to write here...Some would love too! Our people did send letters to the leadership of HH but they never recieved a reply. Would you believe it from their lips?
You know why our people never recieved a reply? I imagine that it is because the leaders there do not consider us on their level. |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
Member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 95
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.113.56.3
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 7:12 pm: |
|
TH alleges:
"Dowen you were never a member, you never signed baptism papers, you never got married there. In fact if you had not joined by the time you were eighteen you would have been asked to leave"
The fact: I don't know about Dowen's personal situation, but I do know this: I was in HH until I was 21 years old, at which time I decided to leave and pursue other things. I never signed any papers as Truth hunter claims they make you do. I was NOT asked to leave. I left on my own. Many of my peers, even some older than myself were not "members", and had not decided yet whether they wanted to be baptized or not. These people were not "asked to leave" either. Truth hunter knows this fact as well, if not better than I do. He chooses to deliberately lie about the facts in this matter. If he is willing to lie about this, the reader must wonder: What else is he lying about? May God help us all, Very_disturbed |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 147
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.97.36
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 8:18 am: |
|
I will be and have been talked about by ART for using sources such as what I will paste here but I feel we gain insight from many sources. What serves use it...study it...
A central feature of an abusive church is control-oriented leadership. The leader in an abusive church is dogmatic, self- confident, arrogant, and the spiritual focal point in the lives of his followers. The leader assumes he is more spiritually in tune with God than anyone else. He claims insight into Scripture that no one else has. Or, he may state that he receives personal revelations from God. Because of such claims, the leader's position and beliefs cannot be questioned; his statements are final. To members of this type of church or group, questioning the leader is the equivalent of questioning God. Although the leader may not come out and state this fact, this attitude is clearly seen by the treatment of those who dare to question or challenge the leader. The leader of the movement often makes personal decisions for his followers. Individual thinking is prohibited; thus the followers become dependent on the leader.
In the hierarchy of such a church, the leader is, or tends to be, accountable to no one. Even if there is an elder board, it is usually made up of men who are loyal to, and will never disagree with, the leader. This style of leadership is not one endorsed in the Bible. According to Scripture all believers have equal access to God and are equal before Him because we are made in His image, and we are all under the authority of the Word of God. In 1 Thessalonians 5:21 believers are directed to measure all teachings against the Word of God. Acts 17:11 states that even the apostle Paul was under the authority of the Bible, and the Bereans were commended because they tested Paul's teachings with the Scriptures. Leaders and laity alike are to live according to Scripture. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 401
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 8:25 am: |
|
The above may all be valid points, but they are in no way applicable to HH... |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 8:31 am: |
|
VD, I don't about your situation, but I do know what the rules were in HH. I know there are always exceptions for some reason or another. One of the most common would be the belief of a leader that a young adult was "pressing towards" membership. I have one friend in HH, who has been faking his interest in getting baptized into the group for years just so he won't have to leave his family and disappoint his father, and yes he is over eighteen. But VD, I am no liar, and the fact remains if you are not connected to the group by the time your eighteen, they WILL ask you to leave. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.97.36
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 8:39 am: |
|
Another thing that worried me was what I felt they tryed to use on us, manipulation to gain complete submission from us and our people.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN MANIPUTATION OF ANYONE BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE NAME OF GOD... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 149
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.97.36
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 8:40 am: |
|
HH rules have changed very much. I was there when they changed the rules about baptism. In fact I talked to my mom about it over and over again.
TH is not lying he has placed on this forum documents from HH provong his point. He is very hurt.
People react in differnet ways when they are hurt. My family and churches were deeply hurt by their tatics, especially because we thought they were at the core what we saw on the surface.
one of the things I learned there, that complete submission to "their" ideas is required. Anything else is consider rebellion.You conform or you are OUT...for they see themselves as superior to all other churches..so sad so many good people there that I love many of them and pray for them everyday. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 402
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 9:10 am: |
|
This, to me, is what is so sad about the current assault against HH.
Missionary Lady is very quick to say the members of HH are "good good" people, yet she apparently never stops long enough to consider the fact that maybe HH is the reason those people are so good... |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
Member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 96
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.113.56.3
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
|
If we believe, as the Bible says, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?" —Jeremiah 17:9, then we must believe that we by ourselves are inherrently wicked. So the only good in us would come from God. If we are participating in an evil cult, as some here believe HH to be, then certainly there is not a chance that we can be "good people", because we are not in true relationship with God, just the "leaders", who tell us what our every move should be, and herd us around like cows. If we were in true relationship with God, certainly the first thing he would do is get us out of such a place. Right?
It is extremely contradicting to say "I love them, they are good people", and then to say "It is a cult, people do not know God there, just the pastors etc.. etc...," and then out of the other side of one's mouth to say, "Oh I love the PEOPLE there, they are lovely and good, I just hate the doctrine". What makes up HH but people? You cannot assult HH without assulting the people. When you maliciously slander and misrepresent HH, you do it to the people, from the hard-working dads to the little kids.
When Jesus saw problems in people, he changed them with his love, not by attacking them, slandering them to others, publishing their personal wrongs in the town paper or talking behind their backs. In my life and my families life, we have done wrong and made such a mess of our lives at times, that it seemed beyond repair. However, because of God's love working through people, amazing things can happen, and anything can be overcome. The only thing that can overcome wrong is right. The only thing stronger than hate is love. I absolutely believe that those who are truly doing God's work are doing it through love, not hate. The Bible also tells us that the way the world will know that we are His diciples is by our love for each other. I see how much those in HH love and care for one another in every way. I cannot say this for many of those who are attacking HH.
May God help us all, Very_disturbed |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 101
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 10:48 am: |
|
"This, to me, is what is so sad about the current assault against HH.
Missionary Lady is very quick to say the members of HH are "good good" people, yet she apparently never stops long enough to consider the fact that maybe HH is the reason those people are so good...
That post was full of some strange thinking!
The "FACT" that maybe(?) HH is the reason those people are good?
Daniel first off there can be no good in us except for Christ. Churches, Doctrine and pastors no matter how loving, kind or seemingly "good" , can make us "good".
Now keep in mind that Christians can loose sight of this fact yet remain under some guidance of the Spirit of God. Christ is still in them from when they accepted Him into their lives as Lord. Jesus said He would never leave us or forsake us. The good that I see in the people, is the Spirit of God that is still working in spite of HH. I will take the stand of Paul who said in Gal. 1:6-7, "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
We, who you claim are attacking our friends at HH, are trying to do the same thing that Paul was doing, but in our limited gifts. We have seen not a " different" gospel, but a perverted one, both have a goal of coming to know Christ, and an end result of going to heaven. The problem is Dowen, is the means by which you attain these things, are we perfected by the Sacrifice on Calvary and the blood of Jesus, or are we perfected By HH, patterns and total submission to the leadership thereof in a human. Dowen, one works, the other doesn't.
Of course in the end it will be God who judges who we were serving as master.
(Message edited by truth hunter on December 12, 2005) |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 150
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.69.76
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 11:26 am: |
|
I am atttacking no one. I am only telling the truth. Does the truth bother you Dowen?
HH temple patterns as so called has NOTHING to do with the Bible.
What I find and my friends find in you Dowen is a person that is unstable and doubleminded if you excuse my frankness. You defend something as gospel but you do not live it, practice it and never have.
If I believed somethig as much as you think you do I would surly practice it before I gave advice.
What you do speaks LOUDER than what you say my friend... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.69.76
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 11:41 am: |
|
what you DO speaks louder than whay you say |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
Junior Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
|
Well, I see it has been a busy weekend.
First, I would like to address one quote by PureHeart,
“I have done extensive research about them. I don’t jump to a group’s defense unless I know what I am defending. I still don’t know a lot about their particular doctrine and I don’t care to. It’s not important.”
What else needs to be said? Just what constitutes “extensive research” to you? This has always been the problem in your posts; you do not seem to know much about true Christian doctrine. Because of this lack of basic knowledge you are all over the place, from quoting an atheist, and an occultist to even pointing to a man who set up a religion just to promote his son as the messiah.
I am honestly not trying to be mean or to belittle you. I am just wanting you to see that your defense of HH is based on your good feelings toward the people and not on knowledge.
Young Mr. D, good day to you!
I wish to bring back to your remembrance an example I used on the workshop CDs you listened to. First, let me say that more than a few posters and those who are not posting but who are monitoring this site, knew your dad and mom in Christian fellowship before they joined HH. Your folks were people of good character for obvious reasons; they had good parents and they were born again Christians having the Spirit of the Lord.
Your dad was sought after for some time to become an elder. I am convinced that it was because he and your mom were so well respected and loved within the fellowship (this is the point on the CDs). Men who wish to control others know the benefit of doing so through surrogates. There are two major advantages of your dad being an elder; it relieves the big guy of the burden of dealing with the “stupid people” (who cannot understand his literature) and it provides a buffer of protection to him. If someone gets mad at your dad they are not likely to leave the fellowship. After all, your dad is an elder but he is not the GodMan. But, if someone gets mad at the GodMan (God’s delegated authority) and sees that man for what he really is, then they might leave the group. Your dad is an asset but he is expendable.
On two different occasions in months past you have mentioned that your dad has disagreed with the GodMan or his doctrines. One was in regard to the tri-level salvation doctrine. I am convinced that your father stays in the group because of his love and shepherd’s dedication to serving the Body of Christ. He is willing to endure the false and abusive doctrines and the hypocrisy and the abuse of authority (no doubt thinking that God will straighten out this man in His own time) because of his belief that if he takes his family away there will be no one to care for the sheep. He will eventually come to the place where he will realize that they are not his sleep. They are the Lord’s sheep and the Lord is able to guide them in His will.
A point of interest: I was looking back through some old notes from the late 90s and found where 30 young people were disfellowshipped or disassociated for not committing to HH. Another note from that time period said youth who would not be baptized were not being allowed to attend Sunday meetings with their families. Also, there were notes that a number of higher up leaders were having major problems with their children leaving or running away and were in various stages of disassociation. Even the GodMan was having problems with two of his children but he did not disassociate himself.
It is interesting to note that in HH your personal family problems directly affect your standing in the church. It leads one to question whether the church might actually be the cause for the family problems. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 152
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.69.76
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 12:20 pm: |
|
VD ...I do not know you but maybe you were directing your words at me. You said and I quote"It is extremely contradicting to say "I love them, they are good people", and then to say "It is a cult, people do not know God there, just the pastors etc.. etc...," and then out of the other side of one's mouth to say, "Oh I love the PEOPLE there, they are lovely and good, I just hate the doctrine". What makes up HH but people? You cannot assult HH without assulting the people. When you maliciously slander and misrepresent HH, you do it to the people, from the hard-working dads to the little kids...."
am sorry for your interputation of what I have written. It is possible to love someone but hate what they represent. I love many of my
JW friends and my Mormon friends but I hate the doctrine they are a part of...
Do you mean you cannot love someone even though they are in false doctrine? |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 153
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.69.76
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
|
THE CHURCH IN MY OPINION IS THE CAUSE OF FAMILY PROBLEMS.
EVEN BECAUSE I WRITE ON FACTNET MY MOM FEELS SHE CANNOT "ASSOCIATE" WITH ME.
NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH OR THOUGHTS ARE ALLOWED WITHOUT "SIDE EFFECTS"...OF COURSE THEY TEACH "TAKING EVERY THOUGHT INTO CAPTIVITY...AND ANY THOUGHT THAT HH COULD BE WRONG WOULD BE COMING FROM THE WRONG SOURCE................
SORRY FOR CAPS... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.69.76
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
|
Of course they will say...Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword...twisted scriptures and twisted ways of thought |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 155
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.69.76
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
|
Old Watchman
Pureheart must be a well meaning person but she knows nothing about the oppression and pressure at HH through their leadership... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 156
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.69.76
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 1:54 pm: |
|
Old Watchman
Pureheart must be a well meaning person but knows nothing about the oppression and pressure at HH through their leadership... |
pureheart (pureheart)
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 155
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
|
I want to apologize to all of you. I became too caught up in the discussions. I want to get back to my original reason for posting here; to Glorify God and try to heal the Body of Christ.
Our Christian service should be our desire to serve God. Our hearts often have difficulty when they have been wounded and if we don’t allow Jesus to heal our hearts, we will not be able to fulfill God’s desire for our lives.
Christians, of all people, should be able to get along with others better than anyone else. We have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us and give us wisdom. We have a "new nature" that allows us to overcome our "old nature." We have the examples of Jesus to show us how to love and forgive. If we can’t get along, what hope do we have to offer the world?
All churches have problems; some more than others. Cliques form and feelings get hurt. Some folks feel left out and others want to ‘run the show’. Many power struggles ensue. One set of rules with hundreds of different characters trying to fit. Same song, 34,000 different verses.
Authority is necessary; it creates order; but leaves open the possibility of abuse. What is abuse to one is discipline to another. Order to one becomes control to another. Discernment is in the heart of the beholder.
I must leave for a while. I hope when you continue these discussions you will keep Jesus in your focus and write with God’s love for your brothers even when you don’t see ‘eye to eye’.
I’ll return if possible. Something very important must be attended to and will require my full attention.
May God Bless you all. |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
Member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
|
missionary_lady
"Old Watchman, Pureheart must be a well meaning..."
Missionary_lady, I generally read your posts with intent to understand, agree or disagree or just as consideration ... in some discussions you are aware of salient doctrinal questions and post your concerns ..
However, when you defacto ally with the more sicko stuff from Watchman (now playing a 'GodMan' tune) you risk losing all credibility, top to bottom, 100%.
Just sharing with you straight, brother to sister, in Christ Jesus.
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 157
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.131.68
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
|
I am wondering what you are saying???Didn"t quite understand your reasoning...Maybe I am too tired tonight it has been a long day it is almost 2 in the morning...I only said to Watchman that I felt Pureheart means well. Is something wrong with that. Pureheart does not know what I do about HH and has not went through what I have so I take most of what PH says with a grain of sand.
It is hard almost imposssible to imagine and really almost unbelievable what we experienced through their pressure...(HH)
Good night to all. |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
Member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 66
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 2:22 am: |
|
Hi Missionary_Lady,
You may not actually be reading the posts of Watchman carefully. They are hard to even discuss, ie. they have become too sick for easy discussion.
Missionary_Lady, when you share, there is at least your personal reality that you share, and you feel concerned and hurt. Whether this forum is right for it is a question, however you bring a life dedicated unto the Lord Jesus to the table.
In contrast, Watchman has stooped so low, writing in such an unclean manner, beginning now with a 'GodMan' canard and big lie, that any Christian, any believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, should stop, and rebuke Phillip Arnn in the Name of Jesus, before any discussion continues on other matters.
Missionary_Lady, I realize that you have a lot on your plate, and certain aspects of the discussion can go by you, but some shouldn't.
In this case it is an out-an-out blasphemy from Phillip Arnn, and your not speaking out, just letting it by for convenience, can make you an accomplice to his blasphemy.
That is from where the credibility discussion stems.
Missionary_Lady, it is one thing to let go by Arnn's view of all oneness pentecostal organizations (including those which assist your work) as cults, and some other things that I don't want to divert to here. We live in an imperfect world, sometimes folks make alliances and let things go by. Nuff said.
However at this point today, above, a new low is reached, and the blasphemous writing of Arnn is not something with which you want to be associated.
Whatever your views of Homestead Heritage today, if you keep quiet, then you are joining in his accusation that the folks there look upon Blair Adams as a .. (and I hesitate to even write this) .. 'GodMan' .. You must either speak in direct condemnation of Arnn's blasphemous accusation, or you are supporting it. And you should put aside other concerns and really relate to this issue directly, without diversion, as it is a very heavy matter, a very dark matter, for Arnn to blithely speak a blasphemous accusation lie in such a way, hoping to have it slip by.
Integrity first.
Shalom,
Praxaluh
PS.
Missionary_Lady, if you would prefer to continue this offlist, I would understand. This is not a back-and-forth public matter. btw, I had noticed that not too long ago, some months ago, you spoke close by (church in Connecticut). If you want I can send you my email, or post it on the forum for you. Meanwhile, please consider earnestly/prayerfully what I am sharing with you. If there is any unclarity, a more direct contact may be helpful. |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.141
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 5:24 am: |
|
Praxaluh, how do you know for certain people in HH don't honor BA as much as God Himself?
When I was there I sure did. He possessed the authority of God and every word he spoke was the word of God to me. When he walked down the isle on Sunday, fear and honor rose up from my heart into my throat and I was almost breathless. His entry was always momentous. Everyone else had been sitting in their seat praying and meditating until BA chose to come in. All he had to do was threaten to leave us and panic would set in. No one wanted to be left without God. If BA left, then it was the same as if God left. Everything BA said and did as God's apostle was as God Himself saying and doing it. If BA was displeased with us, it was because God was displeased with us.
I did not believe BA was God, but I did believe he was His true representation and honored Him just as much. In fact I honored Him more than God who spoke to my conscience. BA was there in the flesh; my conscience was the conscience of "a heart that can not be trusted." My interpretation of scripture could not be trusted because BA's had to be right. Right and wrong was whatever BA said they were no matter how much the Holy Spirit was screaming differently to my conscience. My experiential relationship with God through BA and his elders consumed and negated my direct personal relationship with God. In HH a relationship with God only comes through the relationships with the body, especially through submission to God's authority, (the apostle,) and his men.
There is no room for doubt. The only thing I could doubt was myself and my perceptions because I had not attained the direct relationship to God as BA had. He was my covering and protected me from the world and myself. In reality he became what he set out to be. He came between me and my personal relationship with God. His "covering" prevented me from hearing and relating to God in a direct and personal way. "Christ in me," had no meaning, only Christ in BA and those in authority did. According to HH doctrine I was not a son of God, I was only a slave or a friend of God. Not until I reached the constitutional level, (there are three levels in the HH gospel, each with their own three levels,) would I be in direct relationship to God. Until then BA was as close to God as I was going to get. Therefore he was in all practicality God in my life, and each elder and my husband stood under BA and were also like gods in my life. When I called my husband Lord it was with the same honor, no less, then the honor I would give to God if I could have been in direct relationship to HIM. Only a higher authority could question my husband, (an elder or BA,) only a higher authority could question BA and that would be God Himself.
By questioning, I don't mean asking a question with my mouth. I mean doubting in my mind or heart. If I saw an abuse, it could not be an abuse. These men of God could not abuse anyone, because God would not abuse anyone. To think they were abusing would be accusing God of being an abuser. So my mind refused to go there.
Many times we were warned of the huge mistake of thinking of God as a “hard task master.” This is what we would be doing if we thought that BA was asking too much of us. So we didn't go there in our hearts or minds. We just kept laying down our lives, literally, and assumed it was for God with out doubting the least bit. And we did it with a willing heart no matter how tired or how much our children needed us.
It was only when God brought a crisis to my life that I was willing to wrestle with God; that is get a hold of Him and really hearing whatever He wanted to say to me directly even if I didn't want to hear it. The first thing He said was, "I am not your God." I cried and told Him I did not understand, of course He was my God. Then he said "The fellowship is your God." I had to ask Him to show me because I couldn't see it. And in a very clear and special way, right there where I was praying, He showed me how I had disobeyed Him speaking to me when it contridicted what I was taught and told to do or not to do in HH.
All along those doubts were God trying to get through to me and I dismissed them because I couldn't trust God to speaking to my "wicked self" outside of the "proper order" that God's word was supposed to come in at HH. After all I had been taught that the enemy's greatest weapon was to get us to doubt those that God had put in authority in our lives. I would have done anything for BA and thought it had to be God's will.
People just can't understand how hundreds of Jim Jones’ or David Koresh's followers did what they did and thought it was God's will. Believe me; I CLEARLY understand how it happens. I have seen the cult dynamics at work, and in my experience they are working in HH. Just like the others, these people are sweet dedicated people who love "God" and are laying down their lives "for Him" by following this greater and more enlightened way.
People love God and want a place to lay down their lives for Him. They want to be in community with like minded people. They see what they are lead to see and want to see, a "Garden of God," the place He has "prepared for them." After being love bombed, (phone calls go out, "We really want the visitors to feel the love of God tonight,") and their questions are answered with rehearsed answers, they "know" God is leading them to this place.
They will be taught that the heart is wicked above all things. They will learn to trust those who are more anointed and doubt themselves and their ability to know right from wrong. In HH knowing right from wrong yourself is "eating of the tree" the way Adam and Eve did. God will show you right from wrong through the "proper order" He has set in is body.
So you are in HH and you see an abuse of authority. You may think what is happening is wrong, but it can't be. How evil you are to even think such a thing. You repent and thank God for His authority that will "take you where you flesh doesn't want to go" and crucify it. You know without HH you would not "make it" and you thank God for HH because it is your way to salvation.
Now those readers who have never been under HH leadership long enough or old enough to read the HH literature as the word of God for your salvation, may not understand or agree with the thought process that I went through. But I can say without a doubt may who have left HH and even more in HH understand. The sad part is that those inside probably still see nothing wrong with it and see me as evil for claming it to be dangerous.
All I ask is that you get a hold of God directly and ask Him His will for your life. Ask Him to show you the salvation He has prepared for you. Believe He has paid the price and ask Him to abide IN you and then abide in HIM. Christ IN you will do the work of God in your life and change your heart. You can trust God. God be true and ALL men liars; even BA and I. This is why you must know Him personally.
Forever His |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 102
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 9:15 am: |
|
Prax, what OW said is nothing new to this board, here is a quote from my first post on this board, (April 12, 2005)
I viewed the leadership as Jesus Christ come in the flesh, as they taught. So worthy of the respect and honor due Christ Himself. Their word was golden. When they were pleased with me, it was if the light of Heaven was shining on me, and so needless to say when they were unhappy, wrath and condemnation would flow forth.
FH is absolutely right, that is exactly how it was. Blair Adams is definitely, no bones about it, a God/man. And I don't mean a man of God. No man of God would try to take the place of God.
OW has studied HH for over twenty years I think, he has spoken to many dozens of ex-members, maybe more, and we all say the same thing. "Blair took the place of God". He has taken not just the testimony of two or three, but dozens and dozens. There is nothing wrong with the stance and position he has taken.
Your words put you into perspective, if you view calling a man who is standing in the place of God, what he is, then you are guilty of having other gods before our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In my view it is you who have lost 100% credibility, not that you had any in the first place, but I at least tried to view you as a christian, who believed in following God and not a man. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 418
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
|
Old_Watchman,
I am struggling to find the words to express my outrage with you.
Your arrogance knows no bounds.
Even now my hands are trembling so that I can barely type.
Praxaluh has said everything I could say, and better than I could say it so I will let his inspired statements stand and I will add only this, I could not agree with him more.
I may try to answer your post, point by point, later.
To be honest though, I do not know if it would be permissable as a Christian to even "copy and paste" excerpts out of your lying outrage of a post.
The same goes for Foreverhis and Truth_Hunter's post's. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 158
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.79.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
|
Praxaluh, You are right I do not read all the posts as time does not permit. I will be more careful.
I have no idea what most people believe or teach that write on this board. I am only here to defend that HH does not in any way represent what Jesus Name people believe.
I am sure what I believe is considered a cult so I am not here to debate oneness or any oneness doctrine.
I am an old missionary and what I saw at HH has nothing to do with what I know about Jesus Christ. |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 159
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.79.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
|
The only thing I can say about blair adams what I saw in HH the people have him and his word higher that God himself.
I asked my mom over and over why was that but she would just tell me he was God's chosen man for the hour... |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
Member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 97
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.113.56.3
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
|
I must also agree with praxaluh's posting regarding the astonishing posting by OW. I was thinking of responding to OW's words, but reprinting some of those very malicious and unchristian things he wrote kind of scared me too. When I read that, I do not feel the Spirit of God in it. I do not feel the additude of Jesus, who led a life of complete humility and submission to God, leading by and example of perfect love. I do not feel the radiance of His face, the light that drives away darkness. I do not feel the love that caused Him to suffer and die for us. I feel the darkness and the power of the evil one. I am all too familiar with this spirit of darkness and lies, because it is one that has at times been in me, and maybe that is why it scares me.
In this time of year, we celebrate not only the incredible gift that God gave us through a baby in a manger over 2000 years ago, but we also celebrate the fact that he is still being born in us today, and coming to us in the flesh. That is what the season is all about.
This being said, I feel to take a leave from viewing and responding to these discussions for a time. It is so disturbing to see that there are people who have no regard for the gift God gave, and is still giving us. Those who choose to deny Jesus his rightful place as The Messiah and crucify him all over. May God help us all, Very_disturbed |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
Junior Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:20 am: |
|
To all,
I believe that Prax does not have a problem with what I say about HH as much as he has a problem with me personally. We have had contact before, some years ago. I do not remember what Prax contacted me about but if I offended you personally I deeply apologize. However, if my offense is my belief in the Oneness in essence and the trinity in consciences of the Godhead, theologically termed the Trinity, then no apology will be forthcoming. It is understandable that Jews believe in the Oneness of God because of the statement in Deut. 6:4. But, that is not the full revelation of God to man. Jesus is the full revelation of God. When a man says he is “Jesus coming in the flesh” he is saying he is a Godman! At the very least, he has fallen to the temptation in the Garden, “(with knowledge) you will be like God knowing good and evil.” To claim to have the same authority as Jesus is a dangerous statement.
If that makes you mad, this Parallelism will set you on fire. Do you know what David Koresh told his followers? In a sermon called Foundations he made this statement, “Do you know who I am? Do you know who I am? I am God in the Flesh!”
What did he mean by that? Was he saying he was God? No. He was saying that he had the fullness of the mind of God just as did Jesus of Nazareth. In that sameness (the Christ being a man with the fullness of the mind of God) he was the second Messiah. This is a claim so dangerous in its potentiality that it must be exposed for all to recoil in horror at the blasphemy. No man has the unquestionable authority of God!
I am not an enemy of Oneness folk or anyone else. I will give you an anecdote to illustrate the point: I was on a nationally broadcast Lutheran radio show and gave an answer to a question that baptism, when connected to salvation was not by itself a mark of a cult but is a heresy and is often found in company with other heresies concerning the person of Christ, the Godhead, the Word and the Body of Christ. These I have set as an easy to use evaluation of any Bible based group. Lutherans believe in infant baptism. Needless to say I have not been on their show since. Now, if anyone wishes to call me arbitrary or even fanatical I welcome the epithets. I am guilty of that kind of zeal for Jesus and the Word of God.
I have lived under legalism with the AG and in Charismatic fellowships. I am no stranger to the misuse of scripture in the hands of well meaning shepherds with the end idea of “instructing” the believer in righteousness. My wife and I went along with these forms of “holiness” for some years. I cut my hair to an acceptable length, shaved my facial hair, wore appropriate attire to church and my wife was also dutiful to observe the form of “modesty and holiness” mandated by men that was appropriate for women.
Wait a minute! I was not set free by one Law only to be placed under another law, this one totally of man’s making. The breaking point was when the Presbyters told me I could not renew my preaching papers with them unless I agreed to preach in only AG churches. Goodbye AG! You are not all there is to the Body of Christ!
Now for you Oneness folk whom I have offended: If the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin and shows them their hopeless state before God as a sinner and shows them Jesus as the ONLY WAY, and the Holy Spirit is working as a Oneness minister is preaching the Word, then, it is what it is. If the man says you must repent, accept Jesus, be baptized, have hands laid on you and speak in tongues and then live under the holiness they preach, and you do all of that and the Holy Spirit does that wonderful work of regeneration in you and comes in and makes your body his Temple, then Halleluyah brother or sister, welcome to the Body of Christ! But, baptism and laying on of hands and speaking in tongues didn’t get Cornelius and his family saved and all that was not necessary for you either. All that the Word says is to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Period!!
IT IS JESUS PLUS NOTHING!!! |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 103
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
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I have read and reread OW's post, and the only reason ANYBODY would have a problem with it, is if they viewed a man as God, this is why they can call it blasphemy. If they viewed Blair as a man, as a fallible creature, they would not view criticism as blasphemy. I was told many times that my grandmother, who rejected HH and said she felt the Lord showed her that the leadership were snakes like the one in the Garden of Eden, was a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit, and so could never be forgiven. I spoke to my brother in law in HH, who said because I had come against his father (Blair), he was afraid that I had committed blasphemy. Blair spoke the same thing from the pulpit many times, that speaking against them or him as God's authority on earth one would have committed an unforgivable sin. If thats not making a God/man then I don't know what is.
It makes me sick that, these young, ignorant young people like Dowen and VD, have to resort to complete garble and cliches and all of a sudden VD "feels" to leave this board as she is so overwhelmingly proven wrong and shown for what she is; Ignorant. |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
Junior Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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Daniel,
I am sorrowful that you are so angered. But, I seem to have that effect on you. It may seem that in my past two posts I have given with the one hand and taken away with the other. I have given your father all the credit that is due him as a Christian and as a shepherd. The same cannot be said for the one who ordained him an elder. That man must stand on his own record.
The one poster has said that my calling a mere mortal, who claims to be God’s delegated authority and apostle for the Body of Christ (the totality of which seems to be located in Elm Mott and Austin), a GodMan is blasphemy. I can only suppose from that statement that the individual actually believes this man’s outrageous claims.
As to your reaction to my observations, you seem to envision the 800 or so members of the Homestead Heritage as some massive Siamese being with all members physically attached to one another. So, in your mind, to describe the outrageous pretense of one member is to describe the whole being as a single entity. The vision this brings to the mind’s eye is so bizarre as to at first thought bring a chuckle. However, your thinking is only partially incorrect. The members of HH are responsible in part for what goes on in their community. They may not initiate the fraudulent interpretations of God’s Word but their failure to stand up and challenge the false teaching and then to leave is on them. It must be said in defense of the people that the false teachings are so well hidden and so slowly and ambiguously revealed that it takes months or years to realize with what they are involved. But, once they see, there is no excuse for staying. Then, there is dealing with the trauma of realizing what you did to your children and to yourself for so long.
Again I am sorry for your upset. But, when your family leaves HH you will see through the pain in your father’s eyes what everyone has been trying to tell you. Peace to you and yours. |
under_grace (under_grace)
Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 99
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.65
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:57 pm: |
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Hey Everyone,
Though it has only been a few days since I decided to devote myself to business at hand, I really hope somebody missed me. Don’t have much time but I could not resist a few comments.
“ONE MAN TO RULE THEM ALL”. The title of the thread speaks for itself. With 87 posts in six days this topic has stirred some interest.
Specifically:
Praxaluh....You seem like a brother I would get on with, perhaps our paths will cross someday. My guess from reading your posts is that you are a New York Jewish brother who found the Messiah. You have allot of insight and I have enjoyed your posts. I am however puzzled by the quote to ML....“In contrast, Watchman has stooped so low, writing in such an unclean manner, beginning now with a 'GodMan' canard and big lie, that any Christian, any believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, should stop, and rebuke Phillip Arnn in the Name of Jesus, before any discussion continues on other matters.”
Prax I understand Dowen’s and Very Disturbed’s as they left at 18 and 21 respectively and are sincerely sharing their views as they are stuck in time. When I went back as an adult to the football stadium I played in Jr. High. I could not believe it! It was so small and I remembered it as the size of the Cotton Bowl or the Rose Bowl. From that context I understand DO and VD.
However, I do not understand your view regarding BA and your defense. HH does still hold to a semblance Oneness but their practice of “Covenant unto death” and the doctrine of BA being “Jesus in the flesh” is undeniable. I can understand your being concerned with Phillip’s view of Oneness, but to discount everything he posts is rather juvenile and indicates something more of a personal nature.
Testimony after testimony like the ones Truth Hunter, ForeverHis and Missionary Lady gave point out that Blair Adams does believe when he speaks for the Body of believers in HH it is ALWAYS the unadulterated Word of God. Not that he as an Overseer or as he prefers an Apostle who is merely a messenger of God giving truth. Paul said we see through a glass darkly, we see in part and we know in part. It is clear from HH writings and practice that when Blair speaks it is God speaking. When I was in HH I ask the question is “everything” that Blair says and writes the Word of God for us (those in HH), the answer came “when Blair speaks regarding his family he can be fallible but when he speaks regarding the church (HH) he NEVER makes a mistake”. The explanation went further to say that “even if he (Blair) was wrong (which by his calling as an apostle and place in the Body (of HH) he cannot be) or your group leader or pastor is wrong (from HH) God will cover you because you are submitting to HIS AUTHORITY. To question that AUTHORITY (in HH) is to be in rebellion and to be in rebellion threatens your salvation.
What is the difference in saying GodMan and saying I am “Infallible” or “When I speak as your Authority I cannot be wrong”? Prax you may have other issues with OW but saying Blair writes and acts as though he is GodMan is not a “blasphemous accusation” it is the sad truth. Blair of course does not say “I am God” but in writings and practice that is what he is doing.
I do not diminish in my opinion of you, not that you need my affirmation but on this issue I agree with TH, FH, ML and yes OW.
Another subject. Dowen, Pureheart, Very Disturbed and Absolute Real Truth 100% have often commented that we the other 20 or 30 disgruntled, bitter, lying, covenant breakers that post on this discussion board cannot be taken serious because we are so few compared to the 700 or 800 contented members in HH. On the surface that may sound reasonable, but make no mistake about it there are 700 to 800 ex-members out there. Most are not willing or not able to try to reach out to those left behind or give the other side to those that are considering joining. Some just don’t want to be beat up on anymore. Let me say it again there are 700 or 800 ex-members out of HH to the 700 to 800 members that are in. That is not conjecture that is a fact. Another fact is that the average family when I was in HH had 4-10 kids, (I have allot of kids myself and it is great) but it is easier to grow them up inside than to bring them in from the outside.
Dowen and Very Disturbed, I do not mean to be condescending in my statement above. There is no doubt in my mind that the views that you gave on this thread are genuine and sincere, but they are not coming from reality. ML hit the nail on the head. Neither one of you could live in HH now. You left for a reason. You can reach back in your memories and remember the good things that happened to you with fondness and love toward what you left behind. Fact is you could not live in that system anymore than the rest of us could. If it is so wonderful then why aren't you still there? Why don’t you go back? I will answer that for you, you can not go back because you are not willing to abdicate your will to their authority. You are not willing to live in that system or your husband or your wife is not willing either way it does not work for you. Remember all you want, your credibility wanes. Peter said regarding we gentiles....Acts 15:10 “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,”
It is through grace and thankfully forever......
Under Grace |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 160
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.94.73
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 6:22 am: |
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Thanks UG you put my thoughts on paper. I would say there are many more than 800 OUT than the 700 in HH and I would say many more would leave but "reasons" hold them there...Most don't want to go through TH and many more have gone through and others are afraid to break their covenant...Fear, fear, fear... |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 161
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.138.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 7:37 am: |
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Those that have never been members or in very close contact with HH have no idea how they function...
Their Baylor friend that wrote the article in a magazine has no idea WHAT they really are...He is just presented with papers Blair writes...
He sees HH like I too thought it was until...
Whether people on this board like me or don't like me and some do not because of what I say about HH they do not know me as a person. I gain nothing personally for writing here in fact I really lose because Mom has let me know if I keep writing here our contact is severed...BUT the missionary side of me over rules and I feel I must warn people how decieving and underminding HH's leaders were to us. How abusive they use their authority in the name of God.
I have never denied the fact that I am oneness, Factnet know that. I have never denied the fact that I practice outward holiness but I am not here to debate those things. I am not here to debate anything at all. I am only here to warn people as on old "Jesus Name" missionary...don't be led to believe HH is what you see on the suface.
I wish upon no one the experience we had there...So as the Brazilians say, "who warns of danger is a friend." And that matters not on the subject of friendship if you are "whatever" you are...I care about being your friend and I can discuss things without walking away unless people threaten me, scream, and do things like that in the Name of God...I cannot be a friend to someone who tries to use force and abuse...
Just today looking over my mail there was such a varity of people from many different walks of life and many different churches...they
Please, count me as your friend. Sister Alvear |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 162
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.138.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 7:51 am: |
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sorry hit wrong button...
they represent people with many views of who God is, what God demands, and on and on...I have lived long enough to know our common enemy is the devil. |
old_watchman
Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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bump |
old_watchman
Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 2:36 pm: |
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bump |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 201.57.69.188
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 12:57 pm: |
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bump |
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